A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
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This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.
Please make your request in the appropriate section:
Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.
Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
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Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads | none | none | 12 July 2024 |
Clarification request: Contentious topics restrictions | none | none | 12 July 2024 |
Amendment request: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland | Motion | ( orig. case) | 21 June 2024 |
Clarification request: Noleander | none | ( orig. case) | 11 July 2024 |
Amendment request: Durova | Motion | ( orig. case) | 4 July 2024 |
Amendment request: Suspension of Beeblebrox | Motion | none | 10 July 2024 |
Clarification request: Desysoppings | none | none | 12 July 2024 |
No arbitrator motions are currently open.
Use this section to request the committee open an arbitration case. To be accepted, an arbitration request needs 4 net votes to "accept" (or a majority). Arbitration is a last resort. WP:DR lists the other, escalating processes that should be used before arbitration. The committee will decline premature requests. Requests may be referred to as "case requests" or "RFARs"; once opened, they become "cases". Before requesting arbitration, read the arbitration guide to case requests. Then click the button below. Complete the instructions quickly; requests incomplete for over an hour may be removed. Consider preparing the request in your userspace. To request enforcement of an existing arbitration ruling, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. To clarify or change an existing arbitration ruling, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment. This page is for statements, not discussion.
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Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
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Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}}
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There is a rough consensus among participating Committee members that while links to off-wiki threads are not automatically prohibited, it is the responsibility of the linking editor to ensure that doing so does not violate the harassment policy as violations may result in suppression and sanctions. It was emphasised by members that the Community should decide where the threshold of acceptability is. Further discussion on whether quoting private correspondence is a copyright violation is continued below. Sdrqaz ( talk) 00:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by Just Step Sideways at 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by Just Step SidewaysTwo recent situations have revealed what appears to be some vagueness regarding when and if users should email private evidence to the committee, the utility of doing so when it concerns a curent on-wiki, but non-ArbCom discussion, and also if merely saying that a thread exists is not permitted. (I seem to recall that there is a case somewhere where the committee discussed very similar issues, but I've been unable to locate it in the archives.)
I feel like this has the potantial to create a chilling effect where users will be afraid to post anything at all on off-wiki criticism sites, no matter how innocuous their posts are the topic being discussed may be, and that even mentioning the name of a thread on such a site is now forbidden, which seems a bit extreme to me. I understand and agree that directly posting a link on-wiki to a specific post that contains outing is a clear violation of the outing policy. It is less clear to me that posting merely the name of an extremely long thread with no actual link to the thread at all is a violation. I would therefore ask that the committee clarify where the line is. I've deliberately not named the individuals involved in these incidents as this is matter of interpretation of policy, specifically Wikipedia:Oversight. I can email more detailed information if needed but I imagine it should be fairly easy for you all to determine what I'm referring to. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by TryptofishI think it would be very interesting to hear ArbCom opinions on this question. In part, this issue comes up in the context of the 2024 RfA reform discussions heading in the direction of wanting accusations of wrongdoing against RfA candidates to be backed up with specific evidence, and the question comes up of how to provide specific evidence when it cannot be posted onsite. Does ArbCom want editors to submit such evidence about RfA candidates to ArbCom, and if so, can ArbCom respond to the evidence in a way that is sufficiently timely to be useful for RfA? -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by FloqI have lots of thoughts, but they boil down to: we will not link to (or obliquely mention) any thread with outing/doxxing; consider whether it is accessible to the public so it can be verified; and consider whether the WP user has linked themselves to the off-wiki account. If any of the 3 tests fail, then you can't bring it up at RFA (or anywhere else at WP). Sorry, the world is imperfect. Based on this, you would very often be able to discuss a Discord discussion, and very often not be able to discuss a WO discussion, but with exceptions in both cases. It seems like further details on this aren't useful until and unless I become God Emperor of WP, and can just implement it, but I can expand if someone wants. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 23:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by VanamondeI see this as a matter for the community, rather than ARBCOM. To me the heart of the matter is if, and how, we can discuss Wikipedia editors' off-wiki activities. ARBCOM has a role to play when off-wiki conduct impinges on on-wiki matters enough; typically, for harassment, collusion, or other disruption of our core purpose. The off-wiki conduct that has become a matter of discussion at RFA is very different: it isn't a violation of any of our PAGs, it is just behavior some editors find objectionable in an RFA candidate. We treat the off-wiki lives of our editors as private, and rightfully so. Discord and WPO are weird, in that they are strictly off-wiki fora populated by a large number of Wikipedians in good standing. I don't think it's an unreasonable position to take that behavior there shouldn't be immune to on-wiki scrutiny if it becomes relevant to on-wiki matters; I also don't think it's unreasonable to say that what happens off-wiki should stay there until and unless our PAGs are being violated, and then it needs to go to ARBCOM. But that's an area in which current policy seems to not cover all the contingencies, and the community needs to grapple with that. I don't see how a comment like this is useful to send to ARBCOM, or what ARBCOM could do if it was; but we're clearly unsettled as a community that it was posted, and we need to figure out guidelines for it. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 01:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Joe RoeI agree that some clarification from the committee on these matters would be helpful. This isn't entirely up to them—for example, the ban on discussing Discord discussions is the result of a community RfC and it would be inappropriate to modify it either way here—but ArbCom has historically played a role in making editors feel generally uncomfortable about linking to things off-wiki. More specifically, a 2007 remedy pronouncing that quoting private correspondence is a copyright violation is still on the books and still cited in WP:EMAILPOST. Does the current committee agree with this interpretation? In addition, ArbCom has a responsibility to regulate the oversight team, and I've had a feeling for a long time now that they been enforce an extremely broad understanding of what constitutes "outing" that is not necessarily reflective of broader community opinion. Some direction there could also be very helpful: OS is used as "tool of first resort", or so the mantra goes, but we shouldn't underestimate how chilling it is to have an edit suppressed. – Joe ( talk) 08:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by FerretI'd like an opinion on this as well, not necessarily just for RFA. Specific to WP:Discord, I !voted in the Discord RFC to restrict copying and linking Discord messages. I did so based on my reading of OUTING, HARASSMENT, and the community expectations of IRC logs, rather than strictly what I'd prefer. That consideration included what Joe references about the copyright concern of "private" messages, which seems to be part of the long standing rationale around IRC messages. I've also seen several times people suggest that OUTING goes as far as covering someone outing themselves on another Wikimedia project (i.e. a user page on eswiki), meaning that's not good enough to mention here on English Wikipedia. Prior to SUL, that may well have been, but SUL is long done. So what I'm really driving at is: Where is the line on identifying yourself sufficiently to be mentioned on site? Particular to the Discord, we have OAuth integration through an open source bot hosted on WMF resources. Is this enough to count as self-disclosure? Or does the connection to Discord have to be on-site (i.e. a userbox or otherwise)? Revisiting the Discord RFC is on the community, but some of these questions, such as EMAILPOST and how OS will act, are at least partially under Arbcom as Joe notes. -- ferret ( talk) 13:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ThryduulfRegarding Ferret's comments regarding disclosures on other SUL wikis. I have a vague recollection that this was discussed previously, but I don't remember where. I don't think a single hard and fast rule can be applied to that, but it's a matter of how reasonable it is to expect en.wp editors to be aware of the disclosure. For example if you make a disclosure on another wiki and you prominently link to that page from your userpage here, that should count as disclosing it here. If you disclose something on your e.g. eswiki userpage and make it clear on your userpage here that you contribute to eswiki, then again it's reasonable to take that as having been disclosed to the English Wikipedia. However, if you state something on the e.g. Russian wikisource's equivalent of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, and don't link to that page here, then it has not been disclosed to the English Wikipedia. Obviously there will be many things in between the extremes that can only be decided on a case-by-case basis. However, unless you are sure it has been intentionally or obviously disclosed somewhere it is reasonable to expect English Wikipedia editors to be aware of, then assume it has not been disclosed. Thryduulf ( talk) 18:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by hako
@
Levivich Statement by Jclemens
CaptainEek Statements like
Statement by LevivichA couple of days ago on WPO, Vigilant, the WPO user who most often doxes Wikipedia editors and openly threatens to continue doing so, wrote, in response to Eek's comments here, "Sounds like Eek needs an exposé" (link omitted). JSS/Beebs, you posted in that same thread over there six times since that post was made, and not a single word about this very open threat. Here, your third post is "Dispairaiging remarks like 'No need to point people to WPO to hear ten blocked trolls give their opinions on it.' aren't helpful." That's pretty bad: you take the time to criticize someone for criticizing WPO, but you don't criticize WPO for threatening to 'expose' editors. (Also, Beebs, give up the "but they read it!" line of argument. Of course people who criticize WPO read it. Just like people on WPO read Wikipedia even though they criticize Wikipedia. This is not the "gotcha" that you seem to think it is: if people didn't criticize things they read, or didn't read the things they criticize, there would no criticism at all. Perhaps that's what you want?) So w/r/t JSS's comment in the OP that "this has the potential to create a chilling effect where users will be afraid to post anything at all on off-wiki criticism sites," that chilling effect is good and we want that. Just like WPO is trying to create a chilling effect on Wikipedia by threatening to dox editors they disagree with, Wikipedia should create a chilling effect, or a taboo, about participating in off-wiki websites that dox editors, even if those websites refer to themselves as "criticism sites." There are other reasons not to have a blanket prohibition on linking or referring to another website (one of those reasons is so we can call people out for their Statement by JPxGWhile I think the idea of prohibiting mention of the ignominious badsites and offsites was done with the best of intentions, it seems to very obviously and directly facilitate and enable any manner of bad behavior. In general, the way it ends up working in practice is something like:
Here is another example:
Another:
Whatever the reasoning was behind this omerta stuff, it seems in practice to have almost entirely bad implications -- it certainly doesn't stop people from going to WPO and doing whatever they want (trash-talking other editors, getting out the vote for RfCs/AfDs/etc, weird mafioso larping) -- the only thing it actually stops is us talking about it or doing something about it. Contrariwise, this isn't even much of a benefit for WPO -- people onwiki are also completely free to just say stuff with no evidence because "well I can't link to it or tell anybody what it is". jp× g 🗯️ 03:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ValjeanAs the victim of doxxing (and threats of same) and nasty, uncivil, and snide criticism on the named off-wiki website by at least one admin (who should lose their tools) and a few fringe(*) editors here, the comment by @ Just Step Sideways: is very ironic. (* "Fringe" is defined as editors who get their POV from unreliable sources and edit and discuss accordingly here.) Just Step Sideways writes:
Whatever happened to the matter of far more importance to Wikipedia, and that is the chilling effect HERE created by those nasty off-wiki comments from other editors who should be considered good-faith colleagues here? How can one edit and discuss around such editors and ever feel safe again? The "enjoyment of editing" here is totally undermined by them. Trust has been violated. The chilling effect is enormous and constant, and one lives under a cloud of pressure from their illicit and bad faith stalking and harassment. I know this will immediately be reported there by traitors from here, but it needs to be said. Editors need to be protected, and their enjoyment of editing here should not be threatened by uncollegial criticism, snide comments, and threats of doxxing elsewhere. It invites even worse behavior from bad actors who may not even be editors here. It's a dog whistle. Editors need to make a choice between their loyalty to Wikipedia and its editors versus their social life elsewhere. Keep a wall between them. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 20:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC) Thanks to @ Levivich:, @ Vanamonde93:, and @ JPxG: for your insights. You seem to understand the problem. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 20:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by CarritePuzzling that Beebs would feel the need to poke a stick into a beehive. This is not an Arb matter, if anything it is a community matter, and it's really not that. Criticism websites have existed almost as long as there has been a Wikipedia and over these 15+ years, people have a pretty good implied understanding of what is in and what is out. Mentions are one thing, links maybe another. In any event, it strikes me as dumb to overgeneralize about a message board as it is to overgeneralize about Wikipedia — projecting its worst foibles as in some way representative of the whole. This is clearly a No Action sort of request, methinks, and good for that. For those of you who demonize WPO, pop over and have a beer with us sometime, we don't bite very hard. —tim /// Carrite ( talk) 23:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by MangoeWe rejected this back in 2007. Could we please stop trying to sneak it back in? Mangoe ( talk) 00:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by LightburstRecently an administrator in an AfD linked to WPO as an argument for their !vote in AfD. I notified the administrator who posted this link that there are personal attacks about me in the thread. The admin ignored my concern. I notified arbcom multiple times and they ignored me. I notified oversight and they ignored me. So it appears to me that we are selective in who we protect here on the project. Me, not so much, the RFA candidate? Yes. I am especially disappointed in Barkeep49 and the arbcom crew for their complete lack of attention to this issue. When it is against policy to use PAs but it is ok to link to an outside site that allows PAs we have a reason to be concerned. The AfD was clearly canvassed at WPO and editors came to Wikipedia en-masse to ignore our guidelines and policies so they could remove the article. That canvassing is a separate issue but certainly tied to the same issue. Listen it is creepy having this anti-wikipedia site linked to us like a sister project. It is even creepier that some admins are enthusiastic supporters and participants at WPO. Lightburst ( talk) 15:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by isaaclRegarding copyright of email: as I've discussed previously, the real issue is privacy, and not copyright. Copyright doesn't prevent paraphrasing, and is about protecting the author's rights to profit from their work. What the Wikipedia community can do to try to enforce expectations of privacy in email (either implicit or explicit) is limited. isaacl ( talk) 21:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Darkfrog24The state of things is that Wikipedia is an important website, and over the decades it's become a serious website. People may want to act and speak differently here than they do in less formal settings like Discord. The dress code at the office need not apply to the sidewalk. It can also be a frustrating website, and adopting a general policy of "Do what you like but don't do it here. Oh, you're already not doing it here? Okay we're good then" is probably the healthy response. We do have some precedent for sanctioning people for off-wiki actions, such as WP:MEATPUPPET, deliberately recruiting participants to affect on-Wiki events. But they've been pretty limited and pretty strictly defined. So while possibly sanctioning someone who harasses another Wikipedian for reasons directly related to Wikipedia might be appropriate, I've been very glad of WP:OUTING's strict take over the years. Here I was saying to myself, "I can't think of any good reason someone would link to an off-Wiki thread that includes outing," and then JPxG gives us three. I still favor the strict protection of WP:OUTING, but now I know where the tradeoff is. This is a balance we strike and not a freebie that costs us nothing. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 19:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. mentioning the name of off-wiki threads: Clerk notes
mentioning the name of off-wiki threads: Arbitrator views and discussion
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There is a rough consensus among participating Committee members that pursuant to Wikipedia:Contentious topics § Restriction notices, protections carried out under the procedure do not require an editnotice. While topic-wide restrictions do not require editnotices (though any user may add one to a page), page-specific restrictions do: editors may ask enforcing administrators to add any missing page-specific ones. There was no appetite among responding members to remove the requirements behind editnotices. Sdrqaz ( talk) 00:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by EggRoll97 at 03:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by EggRoll97Multiple pages protected under contentious topics procedures this year alone (see
WP:AEL#Armenia-Azerbaijan_(CT/A-A) for just a sample) have been protected under arbitration enforcement but have no editnotice or other restriction notice applied to the page. This is despite a line recurring in contentious topics procedures pages being, in part, Because of this, I ask for clarification as to whether these editnotices can be added to pages by any editor if the enforcing administrator has not done so, or whether they may only be added by the administrator who has applied the page restriction.
Statement by SelfstudierThe edit notice can be added by editors with the page mover permission. Idk whether the idea of CT was to do away with this requirement but I don't think it did so in my usual area (AI/IP), the Arbpia edit notice (and talk page notice which can be added by any editor) is needed in general. Selfstudier ( talk) 08:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by FirefangledfeathersEditnotices can be created by administrators, page movers, and template editors. If an editnotice exists, most editors can edit it, and I'd support non-admins rectifying clerical errors wherever possible. Speaking of which, if someone wants to collect some pages that need editnotices, I'm happy to cross a bunch of them off the list. Arbs, I'd suggest that common practice has moved away from such editnotices being necessary. Between admins forgetting, banner blindness, and mobile editors not seeing them at all, I don't think the notices are meaningful in generating awareness of the restriction. Enforcement of restrictions these days tends to be dependent on both formal CTOP awareness and a request to self-revert being ignored or declined, meaning a few other checks are in place to avoid unwarranted sanctions. Would the committee consider changing this requirement to a recommendation? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 18:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Contentious topics restrictions: Clerk notes
Contentious topics restrictions: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Initiated by My very best wishes at 23:27, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
My editing restrictions were based on the findings of fact about my comments during the arbitration. This FoF tells about two issues.
The topic ban always struck me as one that shouldn't have happened. There simply wasn't anything in evidence that MVBW had problems in the topic area; and topic-bans are meant to be preventative, not punitive. I can understand why it happened (ArbCom needs to maintain decorum during cases and has a limited toolbox to enforce that) but if they felt something was necessary, just the interaction ban, ejecting MVBW from that specific case during the case, or at most restrictions on participation in future ArbCom cases where MVBW isn't a party would have made more sense, since those were the actual issues it was supposed to resolve. Beyond this specific instance, I feel that ArbCom might want to consider how they'll enforce decorum in cases in the future and what sort of sanctions someone can / ought to get for issues that are solely confined to the case pages itself like this - partially it feels like the topic ban happened because there wasn't a clear precedent of what to do, so they just tossed MVBW into the bin of the same sanctions they were leveling at everyone else even if it didn't make sense. Possibly more willingness to eject unhelpful third parties from specific cases while the case is in progress could be helpful. -- Aquillion ( talk) 21:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Note that My very best wishes is also subject to an overlapping AE topic ban (
WP:AELOG/2023#Eastern Europe: My very best wishes is topic-banned from the areas of World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, and is warned that further disruption may lead to a topic ban from the whole Eastern Europe topic area, without further warning. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she
)
* Pppery *
it has begun...
15:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Acknowledging courtesy ping. To nitpick procedurally, the TBAN I enacted was an AE-consensus sanction, not an individual one. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive319 § My very best wishes. Courtesy pings to @ ScottishFinnishRadish, Courcelles, Valereee, Seraphimblade, and Guerillero, who participated in the admin discussion there. I personally have no opinion on whether to lift the sanction. -- Tamzin[ cetacean needed ( they|xe) 22:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
I remain of the opinion that MVBW should not be under an iban. Would someone kindly be able to explain to me what preventative purpose it is serving? Any "don't do this again" message (both to MVBW and people in the future who might consider disruptively defending someone at ArbCom) has surely been received at this point, so I don't see it remaining serving as a further deterrent. House Blaster ( talk · he/they) 23:56, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
My very best wishes' has minimized his history with Piotrus and Volunter Marek.
My very best wishes (then known as User:Biophys) cooperated off wiki with Piotrus and Volunteer Marek (then known as User:radeksz) in order to influence articles' contents and to get opposing editors sanctioned. Details are available at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list. The case resulted in Eastern Europe's listing as a contentious topic for Arbitration enforcement.
TFD ( talk) 17:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Elinruby, I did not say that MVBW's involvement in the Eastern European Mailing List (EEML) should affect the current application. I said that MVBW "has minimized his history with Piotrus and Volunter Marek." He wrote above, "I never met them in "real life", but I interacted with them on many pages in various subject areas." No one asked him to bring up his previous relationship, but if he does, it should be the whole truth. TFD ( talk) 20:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Elinruby, there is no reason I should disclose my interactions with you since it has nothing to do with the topic under discussion.
MYBW wrote, "I never met them in "real life", but I interacted with them on many pages in various subject areas." Do you think that is a fair and accurate reflection of their previous interactions?
My advice to you and to myself is to let the administrators decide what signficance if any it has.
TFD ( talk) 23:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I want to say that MVBW is an invaluable contributor, particularly when it comes to Russia and Russians. I deeply regretted losing contact with him because of the topic ban, given that I was still trying to straighten out the pages about collaboration with Nazi Germany and was talking to Polish editors about that.
I was a party to the Holocaust in Poland Arbcom case. as best I can tell for much the same reasons as MVBW; we were editing in the topic area of the war in Ukraine at the same time as VM and Gitz6666. I protested the topic ban at the time. MVBW is interested in the war in Ukraine, and not Poland. However the history of the region is such that part of Ukraine was once part of Poland (to vastly oversimplify) and I completely understand both that it would be difficult to respect a topic ban and that it would be necessary to break ties with me because of it.
If it is relevant to anyone's thinking I strongly support removing this topic ban. I do not think the interaction ban is necessary either; he seems pretty serious about addressing the Committee's concerns. Elinruby ( talk) 18:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Remedy 5.1 of World War II and the history of Jews in Poland (the topic ban on My very best wishes) is repealed. Remedy 5.2 (the 1-way interaction ban) remains in effect.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 2 arbitrators abstaining, 4 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Remedies 5.1 and 5.2 of World War II and the history of Jews in Poland (the topic and interaction bans on My very best wishes, respectively) are repealed.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 1 arbitrator abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
My very best wishes' topic ban from World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, imposed under the Eastern Europe contentious topic procedures, is repealed.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
There is a rough consensus among participating arbs that there is no COI exemption to the principle asked about and that the principle remains true with current policies and guidelines. Barkeep49 ( talk) 23:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC) | ||||||||||||
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Initiated by Clovermoss at 16:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by ClovermossThis case was recently linked in a disagreement over at Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Distinguishing characteristic of this church. Horse Eye's Back asked if an editor was a member of the church here and Hydrangeans linked to the above case here. Responses were [20] [21]. I'm not trying to open a case request about LDS editing but simply clarify if there is a COI exemption under principle 9. I think COI concerns qualify as a legitimate purpose. But I also don't think that a person editing an article about their perceived religious beliefs is inherently a COI that needs to be disclosed per WP:EXTERNALREL. I think there needs to be a higher bar than "you're editing this article. Are you x?" [22] Therefore I think there's some vagueness here that should be clarified.
This issue has broader implications in the community. I link to a discussion about that in my "are you x?" statement above. There, an editor said
Statement by ජපසI think that (a) religious faith is not disconfirming for editing material relevant to that faith tradition but (b) it is not not disconfirming either. For me, in an ideal world, Wikipedia would stick to these general principles:
I know that my position is likely the minority one, but I still maintain that this is a better system than the current Don't Ask, Don't Tell-like approaches others seem to favor. jps ( talk) 17:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by HydrangeansOn whether religious background constitutes a COI requiring disclosure and therefore should be exempt from the expectation in
principle 9 of Noleander, I'd point out
a recent ANI thread (
permalink; for transparency it was a thread I commented in) in which users described as disruptive behavior an editor acting on a belief that being Muslim constituted a conflict of interest with Islam (primarily in the context of how that editor assessed the independence of academically published authors, though
OP also brought up that the editor implied Muslim users should be disregarded in discussions about Muslim topics) (the editor was ultimately
topic banned from pages about Islam; other reasons expressed included POV editing, and
Noleander was also cited). This suggests that considering religious affiliation a COI requiring disclosure, as
Horse Eye's Back claims ( I'm inclined to Ghosts of Europa's point that treating religious background (or racial or ethnic background for that matter, the other examples in Noleander) as a COI, expecting it to be disclosed, and considering questions about such unproblematic has an unproductive chilling effect. Whatever the intent behind such questioning, its outcome can result in circumventing the process of achieving consensus in discussions by focusing on participants' perceived backgrounds instead of focusing on content. While Noleander recognizes the possibility that posing a reference or question could in
Statement by FyzixFighterThe question in general appears to me to be whether or not COI provides cover for asking for another editor's religious affiliation, contrary to principle 9 here. Such a question assumes that there is necessarily a contradiction between the two, and I would argue there is none. First, multiple discussions on WP:COIN and the policy talk page of WP:COI have agreed that membership in a religion does not rise to the level of a required disclosure of COI. See for example Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest#Updated proposed text for a shorter and clearer COI guideline, Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive 34#Religious COI, Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive 31#Clearer on religious background, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 190#Question about whether being a former member of a religion counts as a COI. I can find no instances where the community has said that being a member of a religion, current or former, is a reportable COI. Second, even if religious affiliation did require disclosure (and again there is no evidence the community considers this to be the case), the process for dealing with an undisclosed COI does not involve demanding or referencing the suspected religious background. Rather, per WP:COI#How to handle conflicts of interest, the correct process is to ask the user on their talk page if they have an undisclosed COI relative to the article subject. If that fails to resolve the issue, the next step is to take it to WP:COIN. Just as there is no necessary contradiction between WP:OUTING and WP:COI, there is no contradiction here. With regards to this instance in particular, it has been noted in multiple places, including a ANI discussion earlier this year, that Horse Eye's Back's "interpretation of COI is way too expansive" than that defined in WP:COI. While Horse Eye's Back references COI, his description of the situation appears to be rather a concern of bias and advocacy. Most advocacy does not involve COI (such as, as noted previously, religious background), and is better addressed via WP:NPOVN instead of a discussion-chilling ultimatum that another editor self-OUT in the name of COI. Even if this did fall under COI, the proper process would have been to use Awilley's user talk page, ask if they had an undisclosed COI relative to the page (a simple yes/no question that does not require someone to self-OUT), and then go to COIN if there is additional question or concern. Horse Eye's Back is aware of this process and it has been pointed out to them multiple times previously. And yet, they continue to choose not to follow it. -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 01:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by AwilleyI haven't had time to read the Noleander case or even the follow-up conversation on the LDS talk page. I saw that there was a content dispute there the other day over the 1st sentence, so I chipped in with my 2 cents. What seems to have triggered this was my lighthearted reaction to the hypothetical Q&A about how we should be introducing readers to unfamiliar topics in the first sentence. So the Q's are what questions the reader might have, and the A's are how we might be trying to answer those questions in the first sentence. Horse's Eye Back had proposed the following Q&A:
I responded with:
This is true. If you break down the sects that claim Joseph Smith as founder, you get the following:
The Community of Christ (#2) does not fit into what we usually call "Mormonism". They never adopted the early "Mormon" tradition of polygamy, and because of the Utah polygamy, they did everything they could to distance themselves from that branch, including rejecting the name "Mormon". There are also doctrinal differences. (They're trinitarian, Mormonism is nontrinitarian. Mormons accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, CoC not so much.) That leaves us with Group #1 and Group #3. Group #3 as a whole is universally referred to as "Mormon Fundamentalism". Many of these groups continue to practice polygamy. If styleguides mention these groups, they're usually telling us not to refer to these small branches as "the Mormon Church". The TLDR is: the words "Mormon Church" unambiguously refer to the LDS Church, even though the LDS Church rejects that title. That's what you'll find in pretty much any source that uses the term (which many don't). And that was the point I was trying to make with my lighthearted comment above. You don't need to differentiate the 99.75% from the 0.25% in the first sentence. I don't really understand why HEB immediately assumed that was "bigotry" or why they're still making such a big deal out of this comment. I was just going to ignore it and move on, but now that we're here, I hope my statement helps clarify the matter. ~ Awilley ( talk) 21:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Horse Eye's Back
Statement by Ghosts of EuropaIf we allow a COI exemption but define COI too broadly, I worry we'll create a chilling effect. It's one thing if you're employed as a priest. It's another if, like 1/8th of the world, you're a baptized Catholic who sometimes goes to church. Horse Eye's Back has said that even "belonging to a competitor" can be a COI. [31] Does this mean Muslims need to declare themselves when editing the page Catholic Church? Do secular humanists? There are countless reasons people may not be comfortable publicly disclosing their religious beliefs. This could scare away a lot of editors who might otherwise do great work. Ghosts of Europa ( talk) 19:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Tryptofish (Noleander)I'm old enough in Wiki-years that I actually participated in giving evidence in the Noleander case. Here, it's been noted that a Principle from that case came up in talk during the present dispute. That Principle concerns the importance of not making "unnecessary references" to religious or other personal characteristics of other editors, distinguished from references that "clearly serve a legitimate purpose". It was arrived at in the context of an ArbCom case about alleged antisemitic content creation. I haven't followed the details of the present dispute, but I don't think the ArbCom case for which clarification is sought ever really dealt with COI issues (and thus, whether COI concerns do, or do not, "serve a legitimate purpose"). I think ArbCom can legitimately comment here that slurs or personal attacks against other editors (I'm not saying that such things occurred here) are impermissible, based on the WP:NPA policy and with or without ArbCom precedent. I'm inclined to think, however, that drawing the line between acceptable inquiries about COI, and unacceptable inquiries, is a community matter, rather than an ArbCom one. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Red-tailed hawkMy understanding is that editors are not required to disclose their religious affiliation when editing Wikipedia, and I think that Horse Eye's Back is plainly incorrect in
this edit. As
WP:EXTERNALREL notes,
Statement by ElinrubyHi. I have not been involved in this thread to date and am only vaguely aware of its history. I will be delighted to help the committee in any way, but until I have a better idea whether I am here over my remarks about Kaalakaa, the proper way of referring to the prophet Muhammed, or the genocide in residential schools, I think I will wait until someone asks me a question. Please ping. Based on a very fast skim, on the whole I tend to agree with jps, if that helps anyone somehow. Also, committee members, please note that my email address currently does not work, so if someone answered me about my previously-submitted private evidence, I have not yet seen that. Nobody's fault but mine of course, so I guess I will go swap in a new email address pending any questions. Btw, Haeb seems to be trying to excuse himself based on his comments to HEB; since he has been hounding me about some of the above, if we are talking about those things here, then I think the If the committee has not yet taken note of the private evidence, it went through the main Arbitration Committee link a couple-three days ago btw. Elinruby ( talk) 06:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
References Statement by My very best wishesSomeone having merely a personal religious belief is a bias, not WP:COI. However, someone going to certain Church and paying their dues may fall under WP:COI per "Any external relationship—personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial (including holding a cryptocurrency)—can trigger a COI.". Being a member of a religious organization is not different from being a member of any other private or public organization, and as such can trigger WP:COI. Therefore, asking if someone has an external relationship that could trigger a WP:COI is a legitimate question, not a discrimination. Still, it would be inappropriate to ask such a question just out of blue. That would be appropriate only if the behavior by a user indicates the presence of a significant COI that may negatively affect their editing. My very best wishes ( talk) 15:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Jclemens (Noleander)
My very best wishes, this is entirely and totally backwards:
Statement by ZanaharyIt seems the arguments in defense of the right to ask questions about an editor’s demography or associations in content disputes assume that it is useful to try and figure out why an editor, besides their stated rationale, might believe what they are saying. In other words, that it can be useful to figure out where an editor’s bias comes from. This approach favors arguing with people rather than arguing for outcomes, and I don’t think it serves the encyclopedia well. It shouldn’t matter in a content dispute whether an editor’s apparent position can be explained by bias predictably related to their religious affiliation, their race, their country of origin, or their political alignment. Content disputes are about content, not the figures at play in its editing, and arguments about forces potentially influencing an editor’s perceptions, which in turn influence their position in the dispute, are personal arguments. Personal arguments should be avoided altogether, and there should certainly be no sacrifices made to protect their continued existence (consider the short bridge to personal attacks, and the necessarily discriminatory basis for making judgments of editors that take into account their religion, race, sex, nationality, and so on). As for whether belonging to a church qualifies as a COI, I say certainly not, and there’s no reason why an interpretation of the COI policy that includes religious alignment wouldn’t also include an editor’s race, personal beliefs, place of origin, sexual orientation, et cetera. Basically: questions about association and demography belong to disputes between editors, not disputes about content, and I urge the Committee not to protect the right to pursue personal disputes (which don’t serve the project) at the expense of the right to have one’s edits be interpreted free of personal and demographic baggage. And belonging to a church is not a COI. ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 22:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by NewyorkbradAs an arbitrator I drafted most of the decision in the Noleander case, which it's hard for me to believe was 13 years ago. I think the principles I drafted stand up well to rereading at this late date; but as I just pointed out in another section of this page, there is a limit to how much any discussion of current policy should be steered by a general principle contained in a wiki-ancient arbitration decision which, like any ArbCom decision, was written in the context of a particular set of facts. That being said, those who flatter me by seeking guidance from principles contained in old ArbCom decisions that I drafted in my past wiki-life might also enjoy Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/International Churches of Christ#Conflict of interest, although the relevant policies have evolved somewhat since that time (as has the threshold of disruption necessary to trigger an ArbCom case to begin with, but I digress). An editor's membership in a given religious group or adherence to particular religious beliefs, nor the lack of such membership or beliefs, does not give rise to a "conflict of interest" that must be disclosed or should generally be inquired about. In this context, non-neutral, biased, or otherwise disruptive editing can almost always be addressed on its own merits without asking intrusive questions about editors' personal attributes or beliefs. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 14:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Noleander: Clerk notes
Noleander: Arbitrator views and discussion
|
Initiated by Joe Roe at 16:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence) or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. See Wikipedia:Copyrights.
Any uninvolved administrator may remove private correspondence that has been posted without the consent of any of the creators. Such material should instead be sent directly to the Committee.
Following up on #Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads, I would like to request that committee formally rescind these two principles. The ArbCom of 2007 were playing armchair lawyer here. It isn't up to us to decide whether or not emails are subject to copyright (apparently the real lawyers are still arguing about it). But it's also not relevant, because the conclusion drawn in these two principles—that if something is copyrighted it can never be posted on-wiki—is nonsense. We post copyrighted text without permission all the time in the form of quotations, and quoting off-wiki correspondence when it is relevant to on-wiki discussions is no different. The right to quote is protected in all copyright regimes.
I don't expect that rescinding these principles will have any immediate effect, because policy currently forbids the posting of off-wiki correspondence because it's considered personal information, not for copyright reasons. However, the 2007 decision is still sporadically referenced in policies and guidelines, most notably in WP:EMAILPOST. Formally removing it would help clarify the consensus status of these policies and generally make it easier to discuss the issue of off-wiki communication without old, faulty reasoning getting in the way. – Joe ( talk) 16:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
This is overdue. Those principles, explicitly citing WP:EMAILABUSE, were used to suppress quotes of positive correspondence I'd received via email (using the 'email this user' feature) and posted to my own user talk page--after my most memorable screw-up and consequently at the end of my tenure on Arbcom. What's left is at User talk:Jclemens/Archive 12#Mailbag if anyone wants to read about it, and this is what was stricken. Given what all else was happening at that time, I never brought it up for further review. Now that a dozen years have passed, can we agree that the principle was wrong from the get-go and never appropriate? Jclemens ( talk) 18:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Reposting or quoting from e-mails intended to be private, without the consent of the author, is at best discourteous and should generally be avoided. One can imagine unusual circumstances that could warrant making an exception; but the mere fact that it's readily possible to forward or copy e-mails does not mean that we should disregard everyone's privacy or disclose their confidential information on a wholesale basis. Significantly, this is a separate issue from copyright.
As for the copyright issue: Under the
copyright statute that has been in effect in the United States since 1978 (I can't speak about other countries), copyright generally exists automatically whenever anyone writes something original, whether on paper or electronically; this certainly includes e-mails. (The statutory language: Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.
) When someone quotes from an e-mail without permission, they are implicitly making a
fair use claim, just as if they were quoting from a written letter or a blog or a magazine or a book. I do not recommend that the ArbCom attempt to define the confines of fair use, in this situation or any other.
Newyorkbrad (
talk)
21:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
There appear to be some unexamined assumptions in what New York Brad writes. The first is where does his idea come from that this is limited to "quotes", when the holding speaks of "content", one can share content without quotes (indeed most Wikipedians do that everyday in our articles). And no its not always CVIO, words still belong to everyone, so a quoted a word or short phrase is not going to be CVIO. Also, his idea of "courtesy" has to be culturally specific and more importantly circumstantial, as there are all kinds of e-mails, and probably only those that explicitly say, 'this is private', and the author has a reasonable expectation. There are a bunch of situations where the receiver would think the sender has no such reasonable expectation (even if they say its private, depending on the situation and the content). Also "private information", what do you mean, do you mean name address, ph, etc or is it being used ambiguously to mean everything. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 16:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I think the premise of prohibiting this on the basis of it being a copyright violation to be a bit odd. I think there's other reasons to be cautious about sharing information from private correspondence but copyright is not what comes to mind. I live in a place where one-party consent is a thing. While that's what legally allowed, if I went around recording every personal conversation I had with someone most people would see that as unnecessarily invasive and rude. I think there needs to be a good reason to share such information without explicit consent. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I was rather surprised to see Durova's name in my watchlist today, seeing as she hasn't edited in a very long time, so curiousity is what brought me to this conversation. Upon reviewing this I have to agree that ArbCom erred here. The committee should not be making rulings in matters of law, and it shouldn't be giving talking points for lame wikilawyering. As Joe states this will have little to no practical effect in practice other than to take away said talking point, our local policies remain in effect in this regard.
2007 was near the end of the "Wild West" era of Wikipedia governance, we hadn't quite nailed down certain boundaries at that time as we have now. This is simply correcting an error from that period and relegating it to the past. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I said this in the other section above (in re the mentioning of offwiki fora), but I concur with the people here who have said that the copyright thing is ludicrous. Whatever our policy is on reproducing off-wiki correspondence, the claim that it is specifically a copyright violation is so asinine as to resemble satire -- there is no other place on the whole of the project where we interpret copyright in this derangedly expansive way. If we are to have a rule forbiding emails to be posted here, that's fine, but the basis for this should be the rule, not some made-up nonsense about copyright law. jp× g 🗯️ 03:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
For convenience, see [47] for a side-by-side view of the proposed change.
Regarding concerns about the implications of the change, they can be discussed as part of the rationale of the motion, and linked to in the principle. isaacl ( talk) 16:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
My opinion mirrors that of Newyorkbrad, Clovermoss and ToBeFree. The copyright and fair use status of emails is complex. We do not need to go there because if somebody wanted to post a message on Wikipedia, the would do so. The fact that a message is sent by email implies that it should not be redistributed without permission in general, subject to reasonable exceptions in unusual circumstances.
I recommend cleaning up the wording of the decision to say that private correspondence should generally be kept private, and only posted online where there is reasonable justification for doing so. To begin, ask permission of the email author. If permission is not obtained, consider whether posting the email would be rude or harassing. Editors may be sanctioned for posting private correspondence when the effect more about harassment than improving the encyclopedia. To play it safe, forward relevant private correspondence to ArbCom and let them decide whether or not it should be posted publicly.
If an email is itself harassing, malicious, or otherwise seriously unwelcome, then any expectation of privacy goes out the window. Hopefully such circumstances will be rare. Jehochman Talk 16:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
A quick review of Wikipedia:Copyright does not appear to address anything written (or copied) outside of content space. It seems irrelevant to the issue related to conduct by contributors outside of that space and, I suggest, should be removed. As an aside, I agree that removing any indication of ArbCom determining what falls under Copyright law is a bonus. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 16:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
@ ToBeFree: I see Guerillero's point; the "changed from" text is not really the "changed from" text, it's the "changed to" text, using strikeouts. In this particular case, I suppose everyone knows what is meant, but for the future, you should either say "changed as follows" and then use strikeouts and underlines, or keep the from/to system but remove the strikouts. Or, even better, use Isaacl's formatting, which is probably more familiar to Wikipedians. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 18:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Principle 2 of
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova, Private correspondence, is changed from2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence)
or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. See Wikipedia:Copyrights.
to2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence), the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki.
For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Initiated by Just Step Sideways at 18:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
My apologies to the rest of the community, but there won't be much opportunity for any of you to make informed comments here as the evidence here is private.
It is part of ArbCom's public record that I was issued a "formal warning" in September 2021. This is false. I obviously can't reproduce the email discussion here, but I would ask each arbitrator to search the b-list archives for September 2021 for the thread "FAO: Beeblebrox - regarding recent comments" and tell me if they see a formal warning in there. WTT and myself had a fairly cordial discussion, in which he did make it clear he was speaking on behalf of the committee, but there absolutely is not a "formal warning".
Did the committee vote ont he b-list to issue one? I don't know as I no longer have access to the archives, but I'm pretty sure it would requirte a formal vote to issue a formal warning to a sitting arbitrator.
This was clearly put into this decision to imply there was some precedent of me being warned for discussing private communication on off-wiki criticism sites, when the not-a-warning mainly discussed the tone of my remarks on Commons and off-wiki, and also what I fully admit was an inexcusable comment I made in error on an internal mailing list, which obviously is an entirely seperate issue. The only part of it with any implication of private information two words that probably could've been left unsaid, and again, it was manifestly not a formal warning.
I'm not trying to excuse my own behavior. I did what the committee said I did, but the committee did not do what it said it did. This false information should be struck from the record. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 18:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
If it wasn't a warning, then what exactly did you think it was?It was not worded as a warning, it's a list of concerns, most of which have no relation whatsoever with the reason I was suspended. I explained my position on itat ARBN [49] after the suspension was announced:
Three things were mentioned in that incident. One was comments I made on another WMF site about a user on that site, along with a parrelell conversation at Wikipediocracy. It had literally nothing to do with the committee or any kind of confidential information, some people just didn't like it. That's it. No actual policy violation. Another was my supposed outing of the troll who is at the center of all of this. There was no outing. Anyone in possession of even half of the facts knows this. No confidentail information of any kind was involved, and again it was utterly unrelated to any arbcom business. The third thing mentioned in there was a remark I did make on one of the mailing lists that I deeply regret. I beilieve what happened was that I thought I was commenting on the ArbCom list when it was in fact the functionaries list and my comment was about a specific member of that team, and not a very positive one. I never intended to insult this user, let alone to do so in front of their peers. It was an error apparenty due to innatention and I apologized to the user and to other functionaries who expressed their dismay about it. So, that's what that is about. I therefore do not agree that the more recent incident was part of a pattern as it was none of the things I was warned about.
the actual text, lightly redacted, of my email response to the committee's concerns.
|
---|
I have to admit, I have trouble not being a mouthy smartass when it comes to Fae. I guess it's one of those "you can laugh or you can cry" things, it seems obvious to me that he should've been thrown out of the movement entirely a long time ago, but Commons is so broken as a community that they continue to tolerate his nonsense so long as he continues to make a big deal of the sheer number of robotic uploads he's made. So, I made an extremely sarcastic comment when Fae floated the idea that if the WMF wouldn't pay him, maybe he could get the general public to do so, using a "tip jar" which by my understanding is basically how OnlyFans works, yet somehow pointing that out is the most offensive thing anyone has ever said. That's what actually upset them, the rest is just Fae being Fae. And then when Rodhullandemu started acting as his attack dog that just turned the ridiculousness level up to 11. Two little peas in a pod, both playing the victim and the bully at the same time. And I freely admit that I was very dismissive of his super-dramatic overreaction to the whole thing, re-posting every word I posted on WO as "evidence" that I was directly encouraging people to physically attack his home, which is the apparent basis of this report to T&S. If they find that compelling, I guess I'm done here. If I had actually done that, I would totally deserve an office ban and whatever other ban came my way, but I'm quite certain I did no such thing. For me, it was distressing to see Fae's outright lies and Rodhulls creepy threats spread onto en.wp by Owen Blacker, who I don't believe had any involvement in the Commons discussion and was clearly acting as Fae's proxy without doing any critical thinking about the merit of the accusations. On the other hand, the <email posted to the wrong list> comment.... I don't know what happened there, I think in my mind I was talking to the committee, or maybe just the OS team, certainly not the full functionaries list. As you all know I often use a more informal tone on our mailing list, and somehow it slipped into another conversation where it was obviously not appropriate. It was a giant screw up and I feel like a jerk about it and have reached out to some of the other functionaries who seemed particularly distressed by it. I was recovering from covid at the time and maybe it made my brain a little ...fuzzy? That's not an excuse but maybe it's at least sort of an explanation. To the other two points: The Lourdes incident was a good faith error that she made 50 times worse by her very public reaction to it. We've since come to an understanding, as far as I know she has accepted that I honestly meant her no harm and certainly wasn't trying to maliciously out her, and she copped to the fact that the way she approached a solution was exactly the wrong way. It's worth noting that, at that time, it did not require any advanced permissions to see the edits she had made where she self-outed. They had been visible to one and all for about five years. The <redacted> thing, all I really said there was reiterating that we were not making a statement on <redacted> and everyone should just accept that sometimes, we just don't know what really happened.I don't feel like I let out anything that someone couldn't guess for themselves by saying <redacted> but I o dget the point that that could've gone unsaid. I suppose I could've said nothing at all, in all honesty that is a skill I have tried to work on, when to just shut up, but I know I miss the mark sometimes. I am also trying to make myself get less screen time on the whole, It's been really bad ever since lockdown last year, and I find that it is often when I've been online all day that I say or do something that upsets people. I'm working on it, I built a tiny little campsite in my backyard and have been thoroughly enjoying sitting out there reading a book, having a campfire, or just watching the trees wave in the wind. I do apologize if this has caused undo stress or concern to anyone, especially the <email comment>, thing, which clearly made an unpleasant situation much worse. Feel free to share this with T&S if that seems like it would be helpful, and my apologies to Joe as well, I know he has enough crap to deal with without this. |
As you can see, when these concerns were brought to me, I responded to them by flatly rejecting the validity of large portions of it as not being arbcom business. I apologized for the one glaring error I did make, that in no way involved private information, it was just a screw up. The only part of this laundry list that has any bearing on what came later was two words that were at worst ill considered but did not explicitly reveal anything of real substance. Worm and I talked some more about some of it, but the committee as a whole made no reply to my rejection of the basis of most of this list of concerns.
The committee may have intended it as a formal warning, but it did not come across as one. That's not my fault. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
CaptainEek, to give some outside perspective; from what you've said I would personally not interpret that as a "formal warning" - I would expect such a warning to call itself a warning, or at a least a synonym.
I probably wouldn't even interpret it as a warning, and while that might be a personal flaw, I think its useful for the committee to remember the cultural and neurological diversity of the community here and be very explicit in their communications. BilledMammal ( talk) 22:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
As a former arbitrator who participated in the deliberations with respect to both Rodhullandemu and Fae during my tenure, I would encourage the members of the current committee to review their history during 2011-12. The fact that both are involved in more drama a decade-ish later suggests that my colleagues and I did not do enough to ensure their permanent removal from all WMF projects. I believe there were adequate, although differing, grounds for such known to the committee (and Jimbo, in at least one of the cases) through private evidence at that time. Had the committee then pursued a remedy those familiar with the situation and subsequent events can endorse in retrospect, large parts of the above message would have been unnecessary.
Now, having said that, JustStepSideways, even if you've been done dirty... what outcome do you want? If an apology? Sure, I get the desire, but I question whether the benefit is worth the drama. The committee isn't the greatest at handling internal dissent, and I doubt it ever will be.
But if the fastest way to end this is to s/formal warning/expression of concern/, such a change requires the active agreement of a team of volunteers whom you've just called liars. If they do it, I'm not sure who comes out looking more magnanimous. Jclemens ( talk) 23:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Question for the committee: for those of us outside the loop, what is the difference between a “warning” and a “formal warning” in this context? In other Wikipedia contexts it seems like the analogous difference would be “please don’t do X again” versus “if you do X again, you may be/will be blocked”, but I presume the committee has its own procedures and definitions. 28bytes ( talk) 15:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
From what I've seen, a formal warning usually has the trappings that make it, well, formal. "For the Arbitration Committee" is definitely one of them, but they are generally either Case Remedies or Motions that take the explicit form
User:Example is reminded/warned/admonished that...
. Here
[50]
[51]
[52]
[53] are a few examples of formal warnings I grabbed from the archives; while I obviously don't have access to private motions I'd expect them to be logged privately and have similar trappings to show that they are a motion and a formal warning.
While arbs may have intended the message sent to JSS as a formal warning, the will of Arbcom writ large
isn't always the same thing. Formal warnings include those formalities not just as decoration, but to ensure that there is no ambiguity and misunderstandings like this don't happen.
And now I think I've said the word formal so many times that it's formally lost all meaning... The Wordsmith Talk to me 18:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Is it really that hard to just say "we probably shouldn't have said 'formal warning', we probably should have said 'warning'"? If it's bugging JSS, and does no harm, why not just give him the small win? Even if you don't think it's necessary? Twisting yourself in knots, CaptainEek, to say, essentially, "well even though it wasn't a formal warning, how could he not know it was a formal warning" ... what benefit is served, to anyone? Also, Beeb, please request Oversight back. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 20:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Who wants an unsolicited opinion by a user that has faded into the past but was relevant at the time? It's what this saga needs isn't it? I'll take some blame here - I took the lead in 2021, and therefore the lack of clarity that came out at the end may well have been at least partially down to me and my style. So was the email a "formal warning" - well it didn't include the word "warning", nor did it include any indication of ramifications if the email was not heeded. It was not a "Warning" by arbcom standards "X is warned that..." However, it was clearly a warning - i.e. cautionary advice - and it was formal - i.e. voted upon, out of the blue for JSS & framed as from the committee. In other words, all sides are right from a point of view and digging heels in won't get anyone anywhere.
If that were all I had to say, I wouldn't have dragged my sorry rear end back here - it's patently clear to both sides and should be easy enough to sort out. The problem is hurt, on both sides. Not long ago, JSS was considered one of our best - spoke his mind, engaged with the community and worked hard in the deep meta of Wikipedia. He was attacked for that, as many admins at the coal face are, and since he helped the fall from grace of a few prominent (but oh so problematic) users, he took the brunt of their anger. I saw this, because I took a fair chunk of their anger too. Being in those roles wear at you, and is certainly a contributory factor that I'm not here every day.
I could understand if the committee felt that they could not carry on with one of their number acting in a manner at odds with the committee's psyche. I can even imagine that JSS said something somewhere that crossed a line that that meant he needed to be shown the door. But let's be clear here - the manner in which you as a committee did so has left the encyclopedia in a poorer state. The power imbalance between the individual and the committee is something that every committee member should be painfully aware of, the damage that can be done by making a statement must never outweigh the benefit of that statement. I hope that every committee member considers deeply about whether this sort of thing could have been handled by a "quiet word", firmly but away from public eyes, or even encouraging resignation (jump before push). This should be a time for reflection, a time to ask what could have been done better and how.
My opinion is that the committee can help repair this, for little to no cost from their side besides climbing back down on the issue. I've said above that you're not wrong, but it's not about being right or wrong, it's about doing the right thing
WormTT(
talk)
10:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
To paraphrase Louis Brandeis, the goal of the ArbCom as a whole and of each of its members (past, present, and future) should be to resolve disputes and dramas, not to introduce disputes and dramas of their own. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 12:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
There's a great expression that came up around 2016: "You have a right to your own opinion but not to your own facts." The facts seem to be that ArbCom sent Beeblebrox a message of some kind at the indicated time and about this non-public subject. It also seems that it was intended as a warning. But "Beeblebrox should have understood that it was a warning" is an opinion, and reasonable people may disagree. I think one of the arbs may have hit the nail on the head: "JSS, did you need it spelled out for you that it was bad to do those things and you shouldn't do them again?"
It looks like yes they did. And why not do so? Wikipedia is a diverse, multinational project and not everyone thinks the same way or makes the same assumptions.
I think Floq, Maxim, and Worm have it right. If the description of the message as a formal warning is a problem, why not improve it? The substance of the message, whatever it was, will stay the same. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 19:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
While I still don't think I did anything wrong I understand the concerns expressed by the arbitrators and will not reveal any information I learn as an oversighter. Please let me have that back.we not only should but would basically have no choice to restore your OS and to functionaries. Because that is the difference between removal and a suspension and you'd have done your six month suspension so all should now be restored just as it would have been had you been suspended for six months and your term hadn't been up. And I think there was maybe a majority of the committee ready to vote along with me. Instead you want to rehash whether or not we warned you. Maybe the committee will vote to change it to warned from formally warned - serious question: if we did this would you feel satisfied or would you only be satisfied if we struck the warning characterization altogether? If I could just make the decision to change that wording from formal warning to warning I would reagrdless of whether or not it would make you happy, but I am also incredibly uninterested in spending even a fraction of the time I've spent here on other appeals from other people who think we got a word wrong and would be happier if we struck a word.Maybe the committee will decide to make public the 2021 letter, maybe it won't. My first and second thoughts were that we shouldn't because I have become rather skeptical of partial transparency measures in situations like this and am uninterested in defending how we chose to redact it considering that would be two steps (Warning/not a warning->2021 letter redactions) removed from what we should be doing (voting on restoring your OS and functionary status) and one step away from the actual request made here. Now I'm wavering on those thoughts because transparency is important to me and so despite all my concerns, it might still be the right thing to do.But I'm just overwhelmingly sad that this is what is important to you and what we're spending time on. Which means that in six months when you'd be eligible for another appeal (because I imagine that limitation is what will be set regardless of whether we change formal warning to warning) I'll be off the committee. Or if instead you decide to run for ArbCom again in 4 months you won't be able to benefit from the fact that you've had your access restored. I was never - absent you going off the rails in your response to us which didn't happen - going to vote to remove you because I don't think your offenses merit that (one reason why? I think you are innocent of what Fae accused you of) and because of the incredibly high regard I have held you at all times not related to WPO. And rather than take the hint that I dropped for you in January and here (and which perhaps Sdqraz also tried to drop for you for you) and rather than taking the advice that Floq offered you, you just want to be vindicated about the 2021 email. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. It just feels so small compared to what could have been. Barkeep49 ( talk) 06:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
"previous formal warning ... concerning his conduct in off-wiki forums"is inaccurate at all, even with the benefit of hindsight. However, I could grumble that the warning should have been public given that it was regarding an incumbent member (and I'll check with the others to see if there is any appetite for that now). Sdrqaz ( talk) 22:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
These failures followed a previous formal notice issued...) it would be an accurate description. - Aoidh ( talk) 20:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
The November announcement of the suspension of Beeblebrox is amended to remove the sentence These failures followed a previous formal warning issued to Beeblebrox in September 2021 by the Arbitration Committee concerning his conduct in off-wiki forums.
and insert in its place the sentence In September 2021, within the scope of internal Committee discussions, Beeblebrox was advised that his off-wiki conduct was suboptimal.
Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Simple question: are admins who were desysopped by the committee or who resigned while a party to a case eligible to regain the tools by standing at Wikipedia:Administrator elections? I think the answer is yes, and I am even more certain the answer ought to be yes.
I am bringing this up now – and I am deliberately not naming any individual cases – because it is already going to be a drama-fest when a former admin runs to regain the tools and the ArbCom case in question is brought to the forefront. The last thing we need at that point in time is uncertainty regarding whether any particular ex-admin is even eligible for AELECT and then the inevitable ARCA specific to that case attracting yet more drama. House Blaster ( talk · he/they) 02:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
an alternative to the Requests for Adminship processat WP:ADE, and the rest of the lead describes how it is distinct from RfA. My understanding is that ADE is another way to request adminship, but it is not a big-r Request for Adminship (even though the WP:Requests for adminship page is not capitalized, it is capitalized at WP:ADE and I think that is a good way of communicating the difference). Thinking out loud, perhaps a motion adding something to WP:ARBPRO stating that unless specified otherwise, "requests for adminship" refers to any method of requesting adminship, including a traditional RfA or a successful candidacy at WP:ADE. (And that this applies retroactively.) House Blaster ( talk · he/they) 03:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
I mean, the community
approved a trial, it's
on track to be run in October, and the plan is to
"run the election as written" with no further RfCs. It seems the community has finalized its plans around elections
as much as it's going to, and while it's pretty unlikely that anyone off of
WP:FORCAUSE is going to run in October, I think HouseBlaster is right that giving some sort of guidance now could forestall a lot of drama.
Extraordinary Writ (
talk)
04:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
In my view, the request for adminship process will have two routes for a trial period: the open voting method, and the secret ballot method. Thus the arbitration committee procedure in question covers both routes. isaacl ( talk) 14:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
This is an interesting question. My concern would be the fact that discussion goes on before voting starts and is basically forbidden once voting opens. A candidate could give evasive or incomplete answers to questions for three days, or give no answers until just before voting opens, and that's it. I think there is a small but real risk that this could become a back door for previously problematic admins to slip through. I think the safest road would probably be to consider both options going forward, but to leave previous decisions worded as is. There was no expectation at the time these previous decisions were made that there would be any other path to adminship, it doesn't exactly seem fair to the community to basically retroactively give these users a second path. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 19:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{ Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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By consensus of administrators at this AE thread, Peleio Aquiles ( talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 14:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Peleio Aquiles
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles
WP:CIVIL, WP:FAITH, and WP:BATTLE issues:
Incivil edit summaries:
None that I'm aware of.
I have some other concerns here, mostly relating to WP:OWN, but they would be difficult to articulate without getting into some details of the topic and its edit history. I can elaborate if it would be useful, but I figured the civility issues are more clear-cut, and might suffice to warrant action of some kind. There have been a few comments about my editing history. If admins feel that it's relevant, let me know and I'll address it more fully. Otherwise, I'll keep this brief to minimize distractions. Regarding my tag of Al Jazeera's live blog, WP:ALJAZEERA calls it a WP:NEWSBLOG following a recent RSP workshop. In any case, I think it's generally understood that live update feeds aren't good sources for factual information, and others have not questioned the tag. The other controversy Selfstudier mentioned, relating to the Flour massacre, is a bit more nuanced. If admins feel it's relevant, this was the most recent talk thread about it. — xDanielx T/ C\ R 01:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Peleio AquilesStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Peleio Aquiles
Statement by SelfstudierWell, on the face of it, defendant should take a break, I would like to hear more about this. Selfstudier ( talk) 16:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoylandI have a question. Regarding "If, as respondent says in their reply above, filer is a serial POV-pusher who abuses and distorts Wikipedia's rules to remove content that he dislikes, then respondent needs to provide diffs supporting this. To do otherwise is naked casting of aspersions, and that sort of thing is caustic in contentious topic areas." The filer has provided 11 diffs that show WP:CIVIL, WP:FAITH, and WP:BATTLE issues. This is treated as enough information to make a decision. Are 11 diffs also enough to demonstrate that someone is "a serial POV-pusher who abuses and distorts Wikipedia's rules to remove content that he dislikes", assuming the diffs were consistent with the claim? Sean.hoyland ( talk) 03:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC) Thank you for responding Red-tailed hawk. I asked because it seems possible that both the filer and the respondent may take the view that the other party is not fully complying with the Universal Code of Conduct's prohibition against "Systematically manipulating content to favor specific interpretations of facts or points of view", but neither party has filed a case on that basis with sufficient evidence to demonstrate something like that, and I'm not sure I can even remember seeing a PIA related AE case like that. Even if it is not the case here, it is a common situation in PIA, and it's not entirely clear why cases about bias are not filed. I'm not sure anyone even knows how to do it, hence my question. It's tempting to think it is because it involves too much work to compile the evidence, but people often submit a substantial amount of evidence to support their theories for SPI cases and often spend a lot of time explaining their views on talk pages. As recent PIA topic bans seem to show, this means that AE is largely limiting itself to handling speech rule violations, which are symptoms, rather than dealing with common causes like (mis)perceptions of bias, (mis)perceptions of agenda driven editing etc. And this creates asymmetries where what an editor says becomes more important to their ability to edit in the topic area than their impact on content, where speech becomes more important than a bias, where "manipulating content to favor specific interpretations of facts or points of view" has become normalized and is rarely, if ever, sanctioned. Sometimes article content ends up sort of vibrating between states as we all think we are fixing someone else's bias. This doesn't seem ideal. It would be good if it were as easy to address (mis)perceptions of biased editing here at AE as it is to address speech related violations. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 07:18, 29 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by LonghornsgPlenty more examples of unhelpful WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior of the defendant, including claiming conspiracies on WP, removing sourced material because " it's irrelevant and of concern merely to pro-Israel propagandists", dismissing RS claiming they are "Israeli propaganda", and the list goes on. Longhornsg ( talk) 04:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Peleio Aquiles
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This matter is a content dispute. If parties cannot come to agreement, they are advised to utilize dispute resolution processes. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Shinadamina
The user doesn't seem to be following WP:CIVIL as well. Moreover, when I complained about his secret content removal, he/she just ignored it. [54]
Shinadamina claims that their 3 reverts are not a violation, however according to WP:CYCLE, he/she was supposed take it to talk page, after his/her edits being reverted. Morover, he/she keep misintreperting the sources. Neither US Congress, nor UK Parliament called Vardanyan a "political prisoner". A public speech by individuals is not statement by the entire organization. After being reported for misusing the sources, Shinadamina still keep doing it. Here [1], he/she added completely random link as a source.
Discussion concerning ShinadaminaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by ShinadaminaActually action should be taken against @ Aredoros87 because based on his edit history it is obvious that he is making biased edits to Azeri and Turkish subjects and negative edits to Armenian subjects. Please check the talk page of Ruben Vardanyan for the details. My edits have all been explained and proper sourcing used. Shinadamina ( talk) 01:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC) All the edits I have made were done according to wiki policies. Let me respond to each concern:
In conclusion, all the edits I have made were done according to policies. I feel that here we have a pro-Azeri / pro-Turkish editor (@ user:Aredoros87) who is accusing me of being biased, while himself is biased. All his edits have been to display the subject in a Negative light, which does not represent a Neutral Point of View. I think it is him who should be warned and not allowed to make further edits to this page. I also would like to Ping other active editors who made recent edits to this page to see what they think @ user:Bager Drukit @ user:Vanezi Astghik @ user:Charles Essie @ user:Timb1976 @ user:Grandmaster Thanks. Shinadamina ( talk) 03:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Also, regarding WP:CIVIL all I said was that his edits seemed to be biased. I have not been disrespectful to him at all. There were no personal attacks of any kind. Shinadamina ( talk) 03:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by GrandmasterSince I was pinged here, I will comment. Shinadamina, you removed multiple times official charges against Vardanyan. Whether those charges are right or wrong, or present the subject of the article in a negative light is beside the point. We cannot remove information just because it presents a person in a negative light. It is verifiable information, and the position of prosecution must be presented accurately, with attribution. Stating that Vardanyan is a political prisoner is not in line with WP:NPOV, it is the opinion of defense and certain other individuals. Opinions cannot be presented in a wiki voice, they must be properly attributed to the people that expressed them. You removed 3 times charges against Vardanyan, despite other users objecting. It is not acceptable. You need to discuss and reach consensus at talk first. Also, making personal comments about other users' motives is not acceptable per WP:AGF and WP:Civil. Grand master 13:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning Shinadamina
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This is outside the scope of AE. General behavioral complaints not within the scope of a given contentious topic should be, if necessary, raised at WP:ANI. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:43, 29 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Deadman137
The user doesn't seem to be following WP:CIVIL as well and his behavior is close to WP:OWN. When I complained about his warning and his vandalism, he just ignored it.
Discussion concerning Deadman137Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Deadman137
Statement by Philipnelson99I just want to comment here that I don't think AE is the best place for this. I was reverted by Deadman137 a while back and I was confused why because they didn't explain but I asked on their page and they pointed out I made a mistake. Not sure why it's necessary to bring an editor to AE for that or why I was brought up here. Philipnelson99 ( talk) 00:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Deadman137
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Safetystuff is topic banned from the subject of alternative medicine, broadly construed. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Safetystuff
Discussion concerning SafetystuffStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SafetystuffThis matter has been raised after editing the acupuncture page and the Chinese medicine one. I don't have any conflict of interest on the topic and I have access to scientific papers being an academic as such I did my best to provide the broader view on these subjects and many more. I don't have anyone paying for my activity on Wikipedia. My interest is on science dissemination breaking down political or racist bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safetystuff ( talk • contribs) 00:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC) I have done mistakes (I am human) but I have learned thanks to the positive feedback received by good people editing Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safetystuff ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC) Added Note: I hope some editors can moderate the personal insults that have been made against me. I am not replying back to these comments as I am not here to get into social media fights. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safetystuff ( talk • contribs) 02:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC) Note 2: Thanks to Walsh90210 for acknowledging the overreaction in this event. I felt like retaliation for editing the acupuncture page. I provided solid references on the acupuncture topic. Meta analysis are among the best statistical tools to assess the effect sizes of interventions (in this case acupuncture). I use them quiet often to merge data from different experiments as well as I teach stats and effect size too. As such, I know how to read the results from the papers I used as references. Regardless providing results from several published meta analysises, all the proposed changes, which were moderate by other editors, are now deleted without a strong argument. Further , in NZ, acupuncture can be used under ACC. You can very yourself just googling it. Many health insurance all around the world allow it use. Please google it. Now it seems I will be banned from editing the acupuncture page. Can someone please explain to me in plain English what I did wrong? I do not see the logic of what is happening here. Many thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safetystuff ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Walsh90210The diffs provided are extremely weak evidence for the need for sanctions. An AE thread in response to (approximately) one edit feels like an extreme over-reaction; I cannot blame Safetystuff for jumping to the (inaccurate) conclusion that "moneyed interests" might be behind it. However, the editing history does suggest that Safetystuff is a new user who might benefit from editing in other topic areas a bit longer. Without considering concerns related to the stigma of sanctions, a one-month page-ban from Acupuncture (which would require affirmative consensus on the talk-page for any changes) would likely be helpful. Walsh90210 ( talk) 02:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ValjeanI reverted all of Safetystuff's edits as there were far too many problems to be worth keeping. There was also a strong WP:PROFRINGE bent to them. I saw attempts to shoehorn effectiveness into the article based on studies long ago rejected or whose conclusions said that acupuncture was not better than any other method, that last part being ignored by Safetystuff. One source ( Edzard Ernst was one author), criticized acupuncture. It said that acupuncture seemed to have an effect on low-back pain, but was no better than other methods. (Those of us who are medical professionals know that LBP often has a strong psychological factor.) That critical meta-analysis was then used to make acupuncture seem to be really effective, when that was not the main message. That's an improper use of a source. Many of the sources were poor websites. That doesn't mean they were awful, but personal websites that were not official. Few of the claimed meta-analyses were actually that, but were instead peer-reviewed research or other studies that do not meet our MEDRS guideline standards. MEDRS requires much better than individual studies, even if they are of the highest quality. The fact that private insurance often pays for acupuncture, and other alternative medicine, treatments says nothing about effectiveness, but more about how insurance companies cater to customers' wishes and can make money off the deal. One reference, about such subsidy in the USA, was actually a good and official source! We are all volunteers, so drop the aspersions and conspiratorial thinking. The appeal to personal authority and PhD education status means nothing here. Many editors are highly educated, very intelligent, professors, authors, researchers, Nobel Prize laureates, etc. I know of the president of a national medical society who edits here. Even one Nobel Prize laureate is blocked from editing here, so status means nothing, except as a proven subject matter expert. The spelling and grammatical errors are fixable. Safetystuff should approach this differently by making smaller edits and discussing any that are rejected. They will have more success. The idea of a "one-month page-ban from Acupuncture" is a good idea. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC) The issue of a COI and using multiple accounts may not be completely resolved. See the overlap of edits with Carolineding ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and the article history of Ruggiero Lovreglio. There might be other issues. Safetystuff has been warned about COI editing. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC) I share Tryptofish's view about Seraphimblade's suggestion of a topic ban for alternative medicine, and that would be the usual "broadly construed". -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 23:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by TryptofishI have serious concerns about whether Safetystuff is a net positive in the topic area. I came here from seeing the notice on their talk page, just after posting this: [68], at Talk:Acupuncture. The tl;dr of what I said there, with diffs, is that this editor repeatedly misrepresented sources that actually say mixed things about acupuncture, as saying that acupuncture has significant medical benefits, and cited a source about a primary study of acupuncture as supporting a statement that the Brazilian government pays for acupuncture. Some of this seems like not understanding what the sources say, and some really seems like POV-pushing. I also found pervasive problems with inept writing, although that might perhaps be an issue of not being a native English language speaker. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning Safetystuff
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Trilletrollet is issued a logged warning to observe the requirements of civility and avoiding personal attacks especially strictly in contentious areas, and that further failure to do so is likely to result in sanction. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Trilletrollet
Trilletrollet does not view their behaviour as incivil. After
BilledMammal brought this up on Trilletrollet's talk page, Trilletrollet's response was A formal warning from an uninvolved admin would make it clear to Trilletrollet that comments like these are unacceptable, and make it easier to take action in the future if this becomes a larger problem. Since Trilletrollet acknowledges a wish to avoid the Israel-Palestine conflict area but is unable to do that on their own [72], a voluntary topic-ban may help as well.
Discussion concerning TrilletrolletStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Trilletrollet
Statement by Iskandar323There isn't a clear civility issue in the diffs provided, which both outline general statements not directed at any editor or anyone in particular other than broad institutions. The first is directed at the Telegraph, which for sure is a race-baiting rag that well merits all sorts of colourful language being thrown at it, even if throwing colourful language at it on Wikipedia is somewhat needless. The second is directed at Israel through reference to what is now a very widespread meme. Neither really amounts to any form of directed incivility: if others take offense by proxy then it is more of an eye-of-the-beholder-type situation. The "s" word is generally best avoided, as with any other expletives, but beyond this, I'm not sure what there actually is to sanction here. Iskandar323 ( talk) 04:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoylandGiven that Trilletrollet said ' Ok, I'm terribly, terribly sorry about my actions.', information that was not included in the AE report, it seems likely that their views are more complicated than not viewing their behaviour as "incivil". I would argue that thinking some people are shitheads who support genocide is not a good reason to avoid the PIA topic area. It shouldn't matter if the editor can follow the policies and guidelines. On the other hand, thinking there is a legitimate reason (in Wikipedia's terms) to say things like that to specific people, a 'reason to be "incivil"' to editors, is probably a good reason to avoid the PIA topic area. I would encourage Trilletrollet to try to stick around in the topic area if they think they can cope with the content and behavioral constraints and the occasional intrusive thoughts because of their personal views. For me, question #1 for access to the topic area should be, is this editor using deception i.e. are they a sock? Honesty is probably grossly undervalued in the topic area given that it is an essential requirement for building an encyclopedia. And every time we lose an honest person, regardless of what we think of their personal views, we increase the proportion of dishonest editors who use deception via sockpuppetry. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 05:41, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Regarding the diff #2 cited by BilledMammal as a civility issue.
Some interesting context. What truly motivated the editor who requested the move is unknown. What is known is that they were subsequently topic banned as part of the ArbCom canvassing case - " Based on information from the checkuser tool and on information received, the Committee determines that Homerethegreat most likely participated in discussions due to canvassing and made proxy edits for a banned editor." (canvassing that is evidently ongoing). So, another way of describing the statement could be that it was unnecessarily speculative. I wonder if the statement would appear different if Trilletrollet had made exactly the same comment after the ArbCom case and topic ban rather than before. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 08:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by BilledMammalFYI, they have declared awareness of ARBPIA prior to this month, such as on 21 October 2023. Iskandar323, if someone made a comment mocking the way Indians speak, we would probably interpret it as a personal attack against Indian editors, and might even ban them for racism. Why would mocking the way Israeli's speak be treated any differently? Regarding the first diff that Chess provided, this comment by Trilletrollet seems to make it clear they are referring to editors participating in the RfC, not to the Telegraph. Red-tailed hawk, although I would agree that they suggest there is an issue beyond civility, I actually rose those primarily as civility issues. By saying that it is " Hasbara" or "Zionist propaganda" to refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as "Hamas-run" or similar, despite the designation being common in reliable sources and endorsed in multiple RfCs, is to suggest that editors who have added that designation or supported it in RfCs are Hasbara or pushing "Zionist propaganda". Civility issues are also quite common for them. Examples in addition to the ones provided by Chess include:
Note that while some of these diffs are old, they are very recent in terms of the number of edits. For example, 13 April is their 100th most recent edit to talk space, and 16 November is their 54th most recent edit to project space. BilledMammal ( talk) 06:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by DtobiasLooking at this user's contributions, I see they are mostly regarding adjusting categories of prehistoric animals. This is, I presume, tedious but useful work at making the encyclopedia better in that area, so good for you. However, whenever the subject matter turns to something more contentious such as Israel/Palestine or gender, things get rougher, and this user starts arrogantly proclaiming "the right side of history" and using playground-bully style namecalling. Perhaps this user would be better off sticking to prehistoric animals. *Dan T.* ( talk) 15:51, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Aaron LiuPlease, let's all chill down here. TT (sorry bud I dunno what short name to call you) crossed a line here, yes. But this was a single incident that she didn't back down for a bit about that she has since apologized for. Otherwise, I see incredibly and invariably sporadic incidences cited here, with only two incidences (incl. the aforementioned) picking up in the past weeks, the evidence seemingly compiled overall for civility instead of a single topic notwithstanding. As argued in WP:PUNITIVE, sanctions should be preventative and not punitive. The editor has expressed willingness to disengage, so I believe at most, a big warning would be enough. Aaron Liu ( talk) 03:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Trilletrollet
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The article Duchy of Saint Sava is placed indefinitely under a "consensus required" restriction as follows: Prior to taking any of the actions of moving, merging and redirecting, or blanking and redirecting the article, consensus must be established for such an action. That consensus may be established by any normal process, including request for comment and requested move. If there is any dispute over whether such a discussion establishes consensus, formal closure of the discussion by an uninvolved editor must be sought. Edits or moves covered by this restriction made without establishing such a consensus may result in sanction, and may be reverted by any editor. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Sorabino
I am an involved administrator here so I can't formally warn or otherwise sanction this user myself, so I'm requesting help from others. This user has been furthering a content dispute at this article for many years now, on a question of how much due weight should be given to describing a medieval title and in turn a polity. This relatively minor historiographical issue has clearly been escalated into a modern-day political talking point, as a separate article gives some sort of prominence to the Serb nature of the place at the time. Multiple other editors have gone through multiple rounds of explaining that the justification for having a standalone article is insufficient, and it's not commensurate to what the consensus of reliable sources say about it. This last flared up in 2021 at Talk:Duchy of Saint Sava/Archive 2, and it flared up again this year. We should stop endlessly tolerating this kind of This isn't as severe as the case of Antidiskriminator, but it's close.
Discussion concerning SorabinoStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SorabinoThank you for the notification. For now, I will abstain from commenting, since my accuser is yet to provide particular edits or some other evidence that would demonstrate my allegedly inappropriate behavior. Sorabino ( talk) 07:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Several factual errors and misrepresentations have been posted here by my accuser. Starting from the top, he claims that I have been The claim of my accuser that in 2024 debates I repeated some sources ( Since responses of my accuser already exceed 1000 words, please would you allow me just another post here? Several users have raised questions related to citing and sources, but 500 word limitations are preventing me from answering. If allowed, that would also be my final post here (just by re-posting my attempted post). Sorabino ( talk) 08:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by ThebiguglyalienI have a procedural concern as an uninvolved observer. If this is going to be challenged on insufficient evidence, then it would help if there's a clarification on what standard of evidence is expected. Would several diffs showing editing that favors one side be enough to justify a sanction on its own, or would these diffs need to demonstrate something beyond simply favoring a POV? And in turn, what would be expected of the accused in their defense if these diffs are produced? Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 19:18, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Amanuensis BalkanicusI was notified to this dispute because I have the page in question on my watchlist. Santasa99 is being disruptive here, not Sorabino, and I'm puzzled how anyone can come to a different conclusion. Back in April, Santasa and Joy agreed between the two of them to merge the Duchy of Saint Sava article to Herzegovina#Medieval period without inviting the wider community to discuss what was (as I think is now very clear) a highly contentious move. [85] [86] [87] Perhaps, instead of unilaterally deciding to merge the article, had Santasa or Joy initiated an RfC then about its future, an editor like myself may have chimed in and provided them the reliable secondary sources for which they were asking which attest to the Duchy's existence, notability and naming as such. Instead, it has come to this. Santasa's effective destruction of the Duchy article back in April, and their attempts to get over half-a-dozen redirects deleted (!) for completely spurious reasons are themselves extremely tendentious. The peddling of outright falsehoods is also deeply unsettling. Take, for example, the claim that "These redirect titles are misnomers; it does not exist in scholarship on the subject in this form." [88] This is completely untrue, as I demonstrated in my comment at the ongoing redirect discussion by providing eight academic sources (one published as recently as last year) which do discuss the Duchy and verify the historicity of its existence. [89] In contrast to the picture painted by Joy of a user prone to tendentious editing, Sorabino reacted to Santasa and Joy's recent actions by starting a discussion on the TP. [90] Thus, Sorabino is effectively being reported for holding a discussion and in that discussion expressing views that Joy does not agree with (in a content dispute Joy is involved in). Joy, expressing views about an article's title that differ from your own is not an ARBMAC violation, and continuing to hold those views for many years does not constitute a "pattern of disruptive behavior". Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 18:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Santasa99Following could be a crucial point, these two (three) moments in 4 years long discussion:
I have following questions for User:Levivich, now that they shifted the blame on Joy and me:
You, of course, can't answer why Sorabino never answered on these kind of questions, asked countless times over the years, by Joy, Mikola, Mhare, Tezwoo, Surticna, DeCausa, and myself, but you dug through those discussions in Archives, and you should have noticed how Sorabino never produced an answer to a specific inquiry and concrete question. And let's not forget, you also can't make edits and rv's based on your opinion that "duchy is a polity ruled by duke", because sometimes it is and sometimes it is not, let alone that "Duke Levivich" means "Duchy of Levivich" exists.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 02:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LevivichI got curious after reading this and started digging, which led to me to reverse the bold redirection of the article and vote at the related RFD. Here's a summary of the history as I understand it:
I don't know enough about the Balkans to understand the POV implications of having an article about a Bosnian's Duchy named after a Serbian saint (except by process of elimination, I assume Croatia might object), but I would be shocked--shocked!--to learn that one or more editors' motivations was nationalist POV pushing. I am even more shocked that nobody at any point apparently opened up a proper WP:MERGE discussion or started an WP:AFD and voted "redirect." Joy is an admin with an account that's 22 years old; Santasa99 has an account that is 16 years old; Sorabino's account is 8 years old. The claims on the talk page, RFD page, and here, that either the "Duchy of Saint Sava" did not exist, does not appear in RSes, or that Sorabino has not posted RSes, are patently false as evidenced by the talk page archives and the sources discussed therein (by Sorabino and others, including Vego 1982 but also several from the 21st century). Joy's and Santasa's posts at this AE do not accurately convey the relevant facts. This looks like WP:GAMING and "weaponizing AE," and these editors should know how to properly resolve this content dispute vs. improperly. Joy's and Santasa's actions here were improper, and should be addressed. Sorry this is over 500 words; I don't plan to add anything unless there are questions. Levivich ( talk) 01:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by DeCausaI was pinged by Levivich - which is the only reason why I'm posting. It seems to be about why I removed some IP posts based on socking. The article and talk page has been plagued by socking, particularly by banned user Great Khaan. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Great Khaan/Archive. They have a very distinctive style and regularly posted on the page: WP:DUCK for the IP. I also noticed Levivich asking who "Surticna" is. This is Surtsicna a well known editor in multiple history topics. Although I've no interest in getting involved in this, since I'm posting here i'll make one comment. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Levivich has got completely the wrong end of the stick. I got "accidentally" involved in this in 2021. I don't know how exactly the underlying nationalist POVs play out in this. What I do know is that Sorobino (plus assorted Great Khaan socks) have pushed to maintain this article for many years with no other support. If you read the article it's apparent that there is very little in it about a "Duchy of St Sava". It was a title that may or may not (but probably was) used by a Grand Duke of Bosnia for a little over a decade or so. That's why the article is mainly about that individual. The sources that Sorabino claim (which I looked at in 2021) are just passing references (as you would expect from an adjunct title). So this has been gone over and over multiple times in the talk pages. I've lost track of the number of times I've said to Sorabino: produce a draft article from these sources that gives a substantive account of the history of a "Duch of st Sava". He's failed to do that every time. I conclude because it's not possible. FWIW, i think Sorabino's contribution has been WP:TENDENTIOUS and both Sorabino and Santasa have an inability to avoid WALLOFTEXT and won't drop the stick. If they are both PBLOCK'ed from the article and talk page it would be a net positive. (347 words) DeCausa ( talk) 20:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning Sorabino
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Salfanto appears to have chronic issues with the WP:VERIFY, WP:DUE and WP:SYNTH policies. Aside from the above cited diffs, their edits on Human wave attack where they persistently inserted content about Ukraine using human wave attacks using Russian state media sources and synthesis of other references (such as in this diff) showcase their disregard to policy in favour to I suppose WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS about them percieving that content about Russia is not ″neutral″.
The eagerness to continue using poor sources like social media to claim the deaths of individuals even after receiving a block is not only disturbing but to me indicates that this editor should not be editing in this topic, if at all about living people in general.
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It is indisputable that Salfanto's sourcing does not meet our standards. It should be noted however that Salfanto is a rather new editor, with the overwhelming majority of his edits having taken place in the last eight months. Salfanto's conduct strikes me as trout-worthy and a learning experience for him, and a glance at his edit history indicates that notwithstanding some mistakes he is here to build an encyclopedia.
The topic area suffers from more serious issues like persistent low-level POV pushing. I think there's a structural problem in that low-level POV pushing by established editors is far harder to identify and prosecute than comparatively minor mistakes by inexperienced editors like ocassional 1RR or RS violations. The former is ultimately more pernicious to the project. JDiala ( talk) 11:48, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for the editor to explain their edits here Talk:Bogdan Khmelnitsky Battalion#Assessed by the ISW . Another edit, where they add ambiguous This claim was assessed by Institute for the Study of War on 7 November 2023 , is [91] . ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 21:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
The user has continued to make misleading and dubiously-sourced edits within the topic area in just the past few hours, asserting
here that several foreign fighters killed in action were the commanders of units supposedly called the "1st Rifle Platoon", "2nd Rifle Platoon", and "3rd Recon Platoon", despite no such term existing in the cited articles. I can only conclude that these alleged military unit names are either completely fabricated by Salfanto or perhaps drawn from some "phantom" source the user for whatever reason chose not to reference; the association of the deceased individuals with the alleged military units remains unexplained in either scenario. In the same edit the user asserts that Ukraine's 22nd Brigade was a "belligerent" in the 2023 counteroffensive citing an article that claimed the brigade was, at the time of publication, either training in the relative safety of northern or western Ukraine, or lingering in some staging area behind the main line of contact, waiting for the Ukrainian general staff to decide when and where to deploy them
and had yet to participate in any sort of hostilities. As a frequent contributor to the topic area, based on my observations of this user's editing patterns, edits like these are the rule and not the exception.
SaintPaulOfTarsus (
talk)
00:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
editors can face consequences when engaging in POV pushing,doesn't strike me as the kind of conduct WP:CTBE was intended to regulate. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
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Despite still having an indefinite restriction requiring to obtain consensus to readd any content that has been reverted in AA or related conflict articles, Aredoros87 has violated it. In addition, they've been POV pushing and removing sourced content. Vanezi ( talk) 09:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
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Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
"Why Ruben Vardanyan Can See the Future" was the title of an article published in GQ magazine in 2017. In it, Vardanyan is portrayed as a philanthropist and visionary, which is what he tried to portray himself as in the 2010s, after he made his fortune in the 1990s. During those years, he launched charity projects, invested in the Skolkovo business school, where, according to his idea, personnel for Russian business should be forged, and built a school in Dilijan, Armenia, with a unique educational methodology that should “unite people, nations and cultures in the name of peace and a sustainable future.”The source runs nearly 5000 words. I see a topic ban as a reasonable response. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 12:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
A bunch of socks/compromised accounts blocked. Further action related to anything here will need a separate report. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 11:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC) | ||||||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nishidani
Discussion concerning NishidaniStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NishidaniRed-tailed hawk. 12 editors were in favour of the contested word ( User:Unbandito, User:Dan Murphy, User:Iskandar323, User:Selfstudier, User:Zero0000, User:Nableezy, User:IOHANNVSVERVS, User:Makeandtoss, User:DMH223344, User:Skitash, User:Nishidani, User:Levivich). Their collective editing over decades consists of 357,426 contributions to Wikipedia. The 7 editors ( User:Oleg Yunakov, User: מתיאל, User:Galamore, User:O.maximov, User:ABHammad, Kentucky Rain2, User:Icebear244) who contest the word have a total of 8,569 edits collectively to their account, three or more registered within the last several months. My remark reflects this awareness. According to the plaintiff, the consensus was formed by the last named 7, while the majority of 12 was against that consensus- This reminds me that while the Mensheviks actually constituted the majority in many debates, the minority called themselves the majority (Bolsheviks) and labelled the real majority a minority (Mensheviks) Nishidani ( talk) 19:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
By the way BilledMammal, you claimed I suggested that editors of the article Calls for the destruction of Israel are "the hasbara bandwagon”. That’s nicely framed. In that diff I said no such thing. It only shows me arguing that repeating the meme in question (Hamas uses human shields) suggested to me that some ‘experienced editors’ are unfamiliar with core policy’ and the scholarship on that meme's use. My dry summary of the historical overview elicited the response that I ‘clearly sympathize more with Hamas' POV’ and was disruptively ‘personalizing the dispute’, being ‘uncivil’. Well, goodness me. ‘the Hamas POV‘ attributed to me did call for the destruction of Israel. So in context my interlocutor was intimating bizarrely that I share the view Israel should be destroyed, an egregious WP:AGF violation. I don't report such trivia, nor do I keep that kind of remark on some silly file detailing injurious, ‘uncivil’ insinuations thrown my way for some future AE retaliation. Nishidani ( talk) 08:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by SelfstudierI call WP:BOOMERANG for this WP:POINTy waste of editorial time over a content dispute where the current consensus is roughly 2:1 against. Editor appeared out of the blue to make This edit with edit summary "The next to restore this disputed version, against consensus and every possible wiki policy, will be reported for edit warring and disruptive editing." and about which I was moved to comment directly their talk page and was duly ignored. This is an ill motivated request about which it is quite difficult to AGF. Selfstudier ( talk) 17:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by NableezyThere is a clear consensus on the talk page for this edit, a talk page the filer is notably absent from. In what world is an editor completely unengaged on the talk page making as their very first edit to an article a revert and claiming that anybody who reverts them is being disruptive? That’s absurd, and if Icebear244 feels that the material should not be in the article they should feel welcome to make that argument on the talk page, not make a revert with an edit summary claiming the power to enforce the removal of what has consensus, a consensus they have not participated in working on or overcoming at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by nableezy ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Regarding the comment by Thebiguglyalien, this isn’t the first time an editor has mistaken their own views for those of the community, but at a certain point the repeated claims of disruptive editing against others users without evidence constitutes casting aspersions and should be dealt with appropriately. nableezy - 02:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoylandI would be interested to know the background to Icebear244's involvement and decisions. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 18:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC) re: The Kip's "I sincerely do think mass topic bans would ultimately result in improvement to ARBPIA content". In my view, this is a faith-based belief rather than an evidence-based belief. I think there is a good chance that it would not ultimately result in improvement to ARBPIA content, nor do I think there is any basis to believe that it would. The PIA 'landscape' would likely be rapidly recolonized by the wiki-editor equivalent of pioneer species. A critical factor is that Wikipedia's remedies/sanctions etc. are only effective on honest individuals. Individuals who employ deception are not impacted by topic bans, blocks etc. They can regenerate themselves and live many wiki-lives. The history of the article in question, Zionism, is a good example of the important role editor-reincarnation plays in PIA. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 05:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC) So, one checkuser block so far. Several of the editors involved in the edit warring at Zionism resemble other editors, for example, ABHammad resembles Dajudem/Tundrabuggy/Stellarkid/Snakeswithfeet - sorry ABHammad, it's just what the math suggests. Perhaps many issues could be avoided if participation in edit warring was enough to trigger a checkuser, or checkuser was used much more routinely. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 04:54, 8 July 2024 (UTC) @ BilledMammal:, whether saying A resembles B is regarded as an aspersion by anyone (other than the person I said it about) is a question that does not interest me. There is no utility for me in civility concerns, it's just an irrelevant distraction. From my perspective it is an objective statement of fact about the relationship between objects in a metric space. There is no value judgement, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they are the same person. There are at least 3 ways to address these things. ABHammad could make a true statement of fact. A checkuser could simply have a look. An SPI could be filed. A problem, of course, is that 'computer says so' is currently not a valid reason to request a checkuser. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 08:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Regarding recolonization of the PIA topic area after a potential Arbcom case clean out, you can ask the question - how long would recolonization take? This 'ARBPIA gaming?' thread at AN provides an answer. With a little bit of preparation, it could take as little as two and half days. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 10:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC) To preserve the record here, User:Kentucky Rain24, another editor employing deception, who also happened to be involved in the edit warring events at Zionism used to generate this report, has now been blocked. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 09:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC) I agree with @ Iskandar323: that a rational and pragmatic response would be to conduct checkusers, especially if an Arbcom case or a separate AE case are options. Including what turns out to be a disposable account in a case presumably wastes everyone's time given that disposable accounts have no standing, and remedies have no impact on them. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 17:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by 916crdshn
Statement by BilledMammalNishidani does appear to have a habit of personalizing comments. A few that I remembered, or found by quickly glancing through some of their more active talk pages, includes
"Don't reply. Read several good books on the facts of history", saying a user
"lack even an elementary understanding" of how to closely parse texts, describing a talk page discussion as an A few other examples are:
Statement by IOHANNVSVERVSHere is the most recent and ongoing discussion regarding this content dispute [124], and note that this was also discussed recently in this discussion here [125]. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 20:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Vegan416Although my name was dragged into this discussion here, I wish to stress that I don't want to have any part in this fight and I oppose this Arbitration Request against Nishidani, at least as it concerns my own encounters with Nishidani. I can deal with Nishidani on my own, both on the content level and the personal level, and I don't need external protection. Of course, I cannot speak for others on this regard. I also oppose Nishidani's opinion on the contested term in its current place, but the way to win this debate is to write a strong policy-based argument based on many reliable sources. Which is what I am doing now, and will be ready next week. Vegan416 ( talk) 20:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Dan MurphyThe complaining cohort is wrong on the underlying content, and wrong on whose behavior is a problem here. This Icebear account has under 2,000 edits to Wikipedia, fewer than 80 since 2020, one edit ever to the Zionism article (the edit today), and zero to that article's talk page. Thanks to today's flurry of activity, over 13% of Icebear's activity since 2020 has been trying to supervote an ahistorical "consensus" into the Zionism article and/or getting Nishidani banned. This bit of chutzpah (Icebear's edit summary) salivating over the arb enforcement wars to come, should guarantee blowback on that account: "The next to restore this disputed version, against consensus and every possible wiki policy, will be reported for edit warring and disruptive editing." Must have just stumbled across all this. Oh, the BilledMammal account is here. How surprising. Dan Murphy ( talk) 22:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by UnbanditoThe content restored by Nishidani was the latest version in an ongoing content dispute over the inclusion of a mention of colonization/colonialism in the article lead. A mention of colonialism is broadly supported by the relevant scholarship, as a number of editors have demonstrated in the relevant talk page discussions. To broadly summarize the dispute, a slight majority of editors support the inclusion of a mention of colonialism in the lead while a minority oppose any mention of it. In my reading of the edit history of the dispute, the editors in favor of an inclusion of colonialism have advanced several versions of the proposed content, compromising when their edits were reverted and supporting their edits on the talk page, while editors opposed to the new changes have reverted all attempts to add language and sourcing which mentions colonialism, with little support for these actions on the talk page. This dispute began when Iskandar's edit was reverted on 6 June. As the dispute continued, several revised additions were also reverted. Editors opposed to the inclusion of a mention of colonialism have made their own changes to the lead, so the claim that one "side" is adding disputed material and the other is not doesn't stand up to scrutiny. When the most recent version of the proposed changes was reverted, Nishidani added several high quality sources. Those edits were reverted regardless of the substantive changes in sourcing, and Icebear issued a blanket threat to report anyone who restored the contested content. At the time of Nishidani's , I was working on this compromise, but I was edit conflicted and decided to return to the article later. If I had finished my edit more quickly, it seems that I would have been dragged in front of this noticeboard even though my edit is substantially different since, according to Icebear's edit summary, anyone restoring the disputed version would be reported. The simple truth of this content dispute is that a number of editors, who are in the minority, are being very inflexible about any mention of colonialism in the lead despite strong support in the literature and among editors for these changes. In my opinion the lead is improving, however chaotically and contentiously. There's no need for administrative involvement here. Nishidani has been recognized many times over the years for their work defending scholarship and scholarly sources on Wikipedia. They are doing more of that good work on the Zionism page. Unbandito ( talk) 23:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ParabolistOne of the most suspect lead ups to an AE filing I've ever seen. And BilledMammal's "Here's eight specific diffs with commentary stretching all the way back to November I just, you know, causally glanced at in the hour and a half since this filing was posted" is ridiculous. How many times can one editor be warned about weaponizing AE against their opponents before someone actually recognizes the pattern? This is becoming farcical. Parabolist ( talk) 23:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ThebiguglyalienMy thoughts in no order:
To the administrators, I ask two questions that I'd like to have answered as part of the decision here. First, what are the red lines? If it's disruption, we're well past that. If it's the community getting sick of it, we're well past that. I don't know what further lines can be crossed. Second, how often is a fear of blowback from a banned user and their wikifriends a factor in these decisions? Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 01:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by The KipJust jumping in here to effectively second everything TBUA said above. The AE filer themselves is suspect in their editing, and there’s a good argument for a BOOMERANG punishment here; that said, that doesn’t absolve Nishidani of valid incivility complaints and other issues regarding ARBPIA that’ve gone on for years. Sanctions for both would be ideal. This whole case and its votes are, in my opinion, emblematic of the shortcomings of the ARBPIA area and its editors, who consistently defend/attack others at this board and other places on Wikipedia almost solely based on ideological alignment. I sincerely do think mass topic bans would ultimately result in improvement to ARBPIA content; this attitude towards experienced editors of “well, they contribute a lot despite their [ WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct/POV-pushing/weaponizing of AE/etc] can’t be the long-term solution. Anyhow, that’s the end of my soapbox. The Kip ( contribs) 04:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich (Nishidani)Nishidani mentioned 7 editors who opposed describing Zionism as colonialism. I recognize those names (and others). My previously complaints about: tag-team edit warring (recent example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), both-siding WP:ONUS, and bludgeoning A group of editors have been arguing, and edit warring, a bunch of Nakba denial myths, such as:
User:מתיאל was a disclosed paid editing account in 2021 1 2 3; the disclosure was removed from their userpage in April 2024. They made about 50 (non-deleted) edits between Sep 2021 and Mar 2024 ( xtools). Top edited pages for User:ABHammad [127] and User:O.maximov [128], aside from Israel/Palestine, are articles about businesses. User:Galamore: Jan 2024 UPE ANI ( blocked, unblocked); May AE "Galamore cautioned against continuing long term edit wars, especially when those edit wars have been the target of sockpuppetry and off-wiki canvassing."; May ANI for gaming 500. Seems pretty obvious to me that somebody bought/rented/expanded a UPEfarm and is using it to push far-right-Israeli propaganda, and I think deliberately provoke uncivil responses from the regular editors of the topic area is part of the strategy. Not a new trick. Colleagues: try not to take the bait, and I'll do the same. Admins: please clear this new farm from the topic area, thank you. If nobody wants to volunteer to do it -- I don't blame them -- let's ask the WMF to spend some money investigating and cleaning up this most-recent infiltration. Levivich ( talk) 05:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
We now have a 6th revert in the "recent example" string above, from Oleg Yunakov, along with saying at the talk page that the "colonization" is a " statements that are only mentioned by select scientists" and " opinion of colonization is clearly a minority" (plus the mandatory ad hominem swipe). That is flat misrepresentation of the sources, and Oleg knows this because he participated in the discussion about it, where he brought one source--which, IIRC, is the one and only WP:RS that disputes "colonization" among over a dozen that were examined in that discussion. The current ongoing edit war by this group of editors isn't the first edit war about "colonization" on the Zionism article, we had one a month ago ( 1, 2, 3, 4). So we have the edit war, we have the talk page discussion where we bring over a dozen sources and examine them, and still they just go back to edit warring, bringing in new accounts, and still, people claim against all evidence that a mainstream view is a minority view. I did my part. I researched, I engaged in constructive talk page discussion, I posted over a dozen sources, I read the sources other people posted--and a number of other editors did the same. Can admins now do their part, please: TBAN the people who are misrepresenting sources by claiming that "Zionism was colonization" is not a mainstream view, who only brought one source (or zero sources, or didn't even participate in the talk page discussion at all, as is the case for some of these editors), and who continue to edit war. We don't really need to prove a UPEfarm for this, just TBAN them for the diffs I'm posting on this page. I think AE is the right place for this. Thanks. Levivich ( talk) 16:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
It's a new day and we have more edit warring about Zionism and colonialism (today, at settler colonialism): 1, 2, 3. Nobody's edited that talk page since June 17. This is like every day in this topic area right now: it's a full-court press to make sure Wikipedia doesn't say Zionism is any kind of colonialism. Levivich ( talk) 15:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by GalamoreI was tagged here by Levivich (I couldn't really understand his message, a concentration of accusations and confusion between users). Some time ago, I was asked not to participate in edit wars, and since then, I have been trying to edit relatively neutral topics. Levivich's accusation is out of place. Shabbat shalom and have a great weekend! Galamore ( talk) 06:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000This report is entirely about an editor trying to win an edit war by means of noticeboard report. An editor whose total contribution is one massive revert and not a single talk page comment. It should be dismissed out of hand. Zero talk 15:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC) To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: I am alarmed by your proposal that Nishidani is a net negative. In my 22 years of editing in the I/P area, it has been a rare event to encounter someone whose scholarship and ability to cut through to the heart of an issue stands out so strongly. He would be a good candidate for the most valuable I/P editor at the moment. To be sure, Nishidani doesn't have much patience with editors who arrive full of opinions and empty of facts, and there are times I wish he would state the obvious less bluntly. But reports like this are not really about Nishidani's behavior; they are an opportunistic response to being unable to match Nishidani in his depth of knowledge and command of the best sources. Nobody would bother otherwise. Zero talk 09:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by JM2023Going off of what BilledMammal said, from the sole interaction with Nishidani that I can recall, this was my experience. This was in January. After I commented on another user's talk page, Nishidani appeared and removed my comment, saying
Feel free to read through my own comments there. This is, as far as I can recall, my first and only interaction with said editor. If this is their conduct with others as well, then... not a positive editing environment. I agree with TBUA that specific users always showing up to defend each other, in a way very closely correlating with whether or not they agree on one specific issue, should be a cause for concern. I left the topic area completely, and mostly retired from editing entirely, over what I've seen in the I-P space. JM ( talk) 17:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by LokiFWIW, I think this case should be closed with no action. Not because I necessarily think Nishidani is a paragon of civility, but because I think if you're going to impose a restriction you should wait until the direct report actually has any merit at all. Otherwise you're incentivizing people to report opposing editors until action is taken against them. Loki ( talk) 23:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by berchanhimezI disagree that whatever happens to OP should impact what happens to the person OP has reported. If an issue exists, it exists regardless of whether another user wants to expose themselves to the toxic environment that occurs from reporting that issue. While I make no comment on the issues raised about the person who posted this thread, I second the concerns OP and others have had about the reported user's repeated incivility in the topic area. It is a perfectly reasonable outcome that both the reported user and the one doing the reporting get sanctioned. But it is not appropriate to absolve the reported user of sanctions for their inappropriate behavior just because the OP also has not behaved appropriately. That is completely against the spirit of WP:BOOMERANG, which is to clarify that the OP will also be examined - not "in lieu" of the person they report, but in addition to. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez ( User/ say hi!) 02:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Iskandar323@
ScottishFinnishRadish: That Nishidani's:
Statement by Doug Weller)I know that I should not just say "per"... but I'm tired. I'm tired physically but much more I'm tired of these attacks on Nishidani. User:Zero0000 is absolutely right when he wrote that "In my 22 years of editing in the I/P area, it has been a rare event to encounter someone whose scholarship and ability to cut through to the heart of an issue stands out so strongly. He would be a good candidate for the most valuable I/P editor at the moment. To be sure, Nishidani doesn't have much patience with editors who arrive full of opinions and empty of facts, and there are times I wish he would state the obvious less bluntly. But reports like this are not really about Nishidani's behavior; they are an opportunistic response to being unable to match Nishidani in his depth of knowledge and command of the best sources." Nishidani is probably the most erudite editor I have ever come across here (there may be better ones, I just haven't met them). As Zero said, this should be dismissed out of hand.I also agree with User:Dan Murphy, both his first post and the tounge in cheek next one. And with User:Iskandar323. The filer should be sanctioned but as they don't edit in this topic a TB would be pointless. I also can't help wondering if someone contacted them, this all seems so odd. Doug Weller talk 13:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by TarnishedPathThis is an absurd report, filed because the defendant made two edits to restore to the consensus wording and one of them contained some minor incivility which was not directed at any particular editor. This smacks heavily of opportunistically trying to take out an ideological opponent. Frankly I'd expect more than a topic ban for the filler. What's to stop them engaging in this sort of behaviour in other CTOP areas in the future? I would hope for sanctions that ensure that can't happen. TarnishedPath talk 02:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LilianaUwUConsidering the OP of this thread was blocked as a compromised account, and that Nishidani has been repeatedly targeted for their edits in ARBPIA (remember Mschwartz1?), I think this should be procedurally closed. LilianaUwU ( talk / contributions) 01:56, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by TryptofishI don't think I'm just some random newish account, and my one extended interaction with Nishidani was at Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism last year ( [133], for example). Based on that, I have no doubt of his erudition, but I was also painfully aware of his, well, snottiness towards anyone with whom he disagrees. Whether that's a matter for AE is above my pay grade. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 00:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by (user)Result concerning Nishidani
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500
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Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
n/a
Notified at previous IP, including 1RR notification on December 31, 2023
Editor is a barrier to article improvement, reverting basic factual corrections demanding supposed consensus be obtained to replace inaccurate unsourced material with accurate sourced material. Given their comment of ""Your interest seems to be in whitewashing and not in documenting fact" on December 31, 2023, it is impossible to understand their repeated deletion of properly sourced content without adequate explanation.
Important to note the RFC the IP started on the talk page is solely related to the lead of the article, and their reversal of straightforward factual, properly sourced corrections to unsourced material are a clear attempt to influence the result of the RFC, since the corrections to the main body/infobox will directly influence the wording of the lead. Kathleen's bike ( talk) 18:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
I have attempted to engage in constructive discussion but the above user has thus far been displaying very frustrating biases and expressing strange, bordering nonsensical, positions. I have sought to seek consensus for changes. 20:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC) 78.147.140.112 ( talk)
Additional: I am the IP in question; my IP address changes whenever my (somewhat unreliable) router resets, as such I could not remain on a single IP constantly. BRMSF ( talk) 22:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Procedural comment: An ANI discussion on this topic was opened be the accused party, regarding the filer at wp:ani#User:Kathleen's Bike. Also, I requested the page protection level suggested below.
I protected the page subsequent to the ANI report but before seeing this because they were both edit warring. If any admin thinks it's resolved, feel free to unprotect. Star Mississippi 00:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Appeal declined. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Ustadeditor2011I would like to improve the lead section of the article with appropriate grammar and syntax. I would like to update the article with new references. Ustadeditor2011 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log Ustadeditor2011 ( talk) 10:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Daniel CaseStatement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ustadeditor2011Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by Ustadeditor2011
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Indeffed as a normal admin action by me because I got to it first. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 21:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Waterlover3
On 26 May 2024, Waterlover3 was blocked for one week due to edit warring. Specifically, they were editing the CZ Scorpion Evo 3 page, adding information about how Hamas used the weapon.
Discussion concerning Waterlover3Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Waterlover3Statement by FortunateSonsUnfortunately, the defendant is either unwilling or unable to understand the relevant editing restrictions. I’m not sure if it’s CIR (or perhaps age?), but that doesn’t really matter. Just about everything, including their talk page (which was modified after they were made aware of ARBPIA, at which point they should have noticed an issue) implies that they are NOTHERE, or don’t attempt to separate their significant personal biases from the editing. FortunateSons ( talk) 10:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierThis is a non EC editor, any contribution that is not an edit request should be reverted with reason WP:ARBECR and editor reminded of the restrictions. Persistent breaches by such editors should usually result in a block, just ping an admin, an AE case shouldn't be necessary. Selfstudier ( talk) 11:13, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Levivich (Waterlover)"ok i am pretty sure hamas doesnt involve itself with US copyright laws KEK since yknow its designated as a terrorist organization" "Hands off Waterlover, death to IOF swine!" (IOF = "Israeli Occupation Forces") "o7 long live the revolution long live the resistance" (O7 = October 7) That's um not good. We shouldn't be allowing that kind of rhetoric, just like we shouldn't be saying things like "nuke them all". I know it's a minefield with people expressing support/opposition for parties in a war, but I think we can draw lines here, at openly calling for death to people, or celebrating attacks on civilians. Especially not in response to template warnings about copyvio or edit warring. User talk:Waterlover3#May 2024 is old but still. They were blocked for edit warring after that. Then in June, calling an editor a disgusting pig, which someone warned them about on their UTP. This is all rather concerning. (Also maybe remind AFC about ECR.) Levivich ( talk) 14:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Dan MurphyI would urge any admin who doesn't know that Bashir Gemayel was an Israeli ally/asset against the Palestinian Liberation Organization in the Lebanese Civil War to abstain from making decisions about who is fit to edit articles about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. What a website. (Waterlover? Should be 86ed.) Dan Murphy ( talk) 16:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Waterlover3
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Closed with no action. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Amayorov
This user has been reported at the Administrator's Noticeboard regarding potential EC gaming here, July 7 2024. There has not been much response to that and since the reported user has been and continues to make so many changes and is currently engaged in so many talk page discussions, I am reporting it here in hopes of more swift action being taken. I commented at that thread about my concerns, being: "Account created in 2016 but first edit made a few days ago and quickly put in 500 edits, immediately jumps into Israeli-Palestinian conflict topic area, seemingly POV-pushing. Seems to be an experienced user as well." It seems quite clear this is an experienced user who has engaged in EC gaming and is therefore most likely a sock account that is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia but to push a point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk • contribs) 20:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=User_talk:Amayorov#Notice_of_Arbitration_Enforcement_noticeboard_discussion Discussion concerning AmayorovStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AmayorovIf the complaint is about me being a sock account, then that is false. I could reveal and confirm my true identity if deemed necessary. My account was first created when a university practical asked me to create a web page about a chemical compound in 2016. A couple weeks ago, I started to be interested in Wikipedia editing, and have edited over 150 pages, creating a few of them practically from scratch. I’m interested in the IP history, about which I’ve read a lot. Since gaining extended privileges, I’ve made improvements to those articles. Those edits have arguably been better-sources than any of my other work, due to my having more knowledge to my having more knowledge on the topic. I do not deny that I wanted to contribute to these topics from the start. I did not push an agenda but instead engaged in respectful and good-faith discussion on Talk pages. In a few cases, I conceded a point. The only complaint I got is that I use Benny Morris as my reference historian of choice. Whenever possible, I try to corroborate his claims using work by other scholars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amayorov ( talk • contribs) 20:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Amayorov
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Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads | none | none | 12 July 2024 |
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Amendment request: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland | Motion | ( orig. case) | 21 June 2024 |
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Clarification request: Desysoppings | none | none | 12 July 2024 |
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There is a rough consensus among participating Committee members that while links to off-wiki threads are not automatically prohibited, it is the responsibility of the linking editor to ensure that doing so does not violate the harassment policy as violations may result in suppression and sanctions. It was emphasised by members that the Community should decide where the threshold of acceptability is. Further discussion on whether quoting private correspondence is a copyright violation is continued below. Sdrqaz ( talk) 00:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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Initiated by Just Step Sideways at 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by Just Step SidewaysTwo recent situations have revealed what appears to be some vagueness regarding when and if users should email private evidence to the committee, the utility of doing so when it concerns a curent on-wiki, but non-ArbCom discussion, and also if merely saying that a thread exists is not permitted. (I seem to recall that there is a case somewhere where the committee discussed very similar issues, but I've been unable to locate it in the archives.)
I feel like this has the potantial to create a chilling effect where users will be afraid to post anything at all on off-wiki criticism sites, no matter how innocuous their posts are the topic being discussed may be, and that even mentioning the name of a thread on such a site is now forbidden, which seems a bit extreme to me. I understand and agree that directly posting a link on-wiki to a specific post that contains outing is a clear violation of the outing policy. It is less clear to me that posting merely the name of an extremely long thread with no actual link to the thread at all is a violation. I would therefore ask that the committee clarify where the line is. I've deliberately not named the individuals involved in these incidents as this is matter of interpretation of policy, specifically Wikipedia:Oversight. I can email more detailed information if needed but I imagine it should be fairly easy for you all to determine what I'm referring to. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by TryptofishI think it would be very interesting to hear ArbCom opinions on this question. In part, this issue comes up in the context of the 2024 RfA reform discussions heading in the direction of wanting accusations of wrongdoing against RfA candidates to be backed up with specific evidence, and the question comes up of how to provide specific evidence when it cannot be posted onsite. Does ArbCom want editors to submit such evidence about RfA candidates to ArbCom, and if so, can ArbCom respond to the evidence in a way that is sufficiently timely to be useful for RfA? -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by FloqI have lots of thoughts, but they boil down to: we will not link to (or obliquely mention) any thread with outing/doxxing; consider whether it is accessible to the public so it can be verified; and consider whether the WP user has linked themselves to the off-wiki account. If any of the 3 tests fail, then you can't bring it up at RFA (or anywhere else at WP). Sorry, the world is imperfect. Based on this, you would very often be able to discuss a Discord discussion, and very often not be able to discuss a WO discussion, but with exceptions in both cases. It seems like further details on this aren't useful until and unless I become God Emperor of WP, and can just implement it, but I can expand if someone wants. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 23:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by VanamondeI see this as a matter for the community, rather than ARBCOM. To me the heart of the matter is if, and how, we can discuss Wikipedia editors' off-wiki activities. ARBCOM has a role to play when off-wiki conduct impinges on on-wiki matters enough; typically, for harassment, collusion, or other disruption of our core purpose. The off-wiki conduct that has become a matter of discussion at RFA is very different: it isn't a violation of any of our PAGs, it is just behavior some editors find objectionable in an RFA candidate. We treat the off-wiki lives of our editors as private, and rightfully so. Discord and WPO are weird, in that they are strictly off-wiki fora populated by a large number of Wikipedians in good standing. I don't think it's an unreasonable position to take that behavior there shouldn't be immune to on-wiki scrutiny if it becomes relevant to on-wiki matters; I also don't think it's unreasonable to say that what happens off-wiki should stay there until and unless our PAGs are being violated, and then it needs to go to ARBCOM. But that's an area in which current policy seems to not cover all the contingencies, and the community needs to grapple with that. I don't see how a comment like this is useful to send to ARBCOM, or what ARBCOM could do if it was; but we're clearly unsettled as a community that it was posted, and we need to figure out guidelines for it. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 01:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Joe RoeI agree that some clarification from the committee on these matters would be helpful. This isn't entirely up to them—for example, the ban on discussing Discord discussions is the result of a community RfC and it would be inappropriate to modify it either way here—but ArbCom has historically played a role in making editors feel generally uncomfortable about linking to things off-wiki. More specifically, a 2007 remedy pronouncing that quoting private correspondence is a copyright violation is still on the books and still cited in WP:EMAILPOST. Does the current committee agree with this interpretation? In addition, ArbCom has a responsibility to regulate the oversight team, and I've had a feeling for a long time now that they been enforce an extremely broad understanding of what constitutes "outing" that is not necessarily reflective of broader community opinion. Some direction there could also be very helpful: OS is used as "tool of first resort", or so the mantra goes, but we shouldn't underestimate how chilling it is to have an edit suppressed. – Joe ( talk) 08:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by FerretI'd like an opinion on this as well, not necessarily just for RFA. Specific to WP:Discord, I !voted in the Discord RFC to restrict copying and linking Discord messages. I did so based on my reading of OUTING, HARASSMENT, and the community expectations of IRC logs, rather than strictly what I'd prefer. That consideration included what Joe references about the copyright concern of "private" messages, which seems to be part of the long standing rationale around IRC messages. I've also seen several times people suggest that OUTING goes as far as covering someone outing themselves on another Wikimedia project (i.e. a user page on eswiki), meaning that's not good enough to mention here on English Wikipedia. Prior to SUL, that may well have been, but SUL is long done. So what I'm really driving at is: Where is the line on identifying yourself sufficiently to be mentioned on site? Particular to the Discord, we have OAuth integration through an open source bot hosted on WMF resources. Is this enough to count as self-disclosure? Or does the connection to Discord have to be on-site (i.e. a userbox or otherwise)? Revisiting the Discord RFC is on the community, but some of these questions, such as EMAILPOST and how OS will act, are at least partially under Arbcom as Joe notes. -- ferret ( talk) 13:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ThryduulfRegarding Ferret's comments regarding disclosures on other SUL wikis. I have a vague recollection that this was discussed previously, but I don't remember where. I don't think a single hard and fast rule can be applied to that, but it's a matter of how reasonable it is to expect en.wp editors to be aware of the disclosure. For example if you make a disclosure on another wiki and you prominently link to that page from your userpage here, that should count as disclosing it here. If you disclose something on your e.g. eswiki userpage and make it clear on your userpage here that you contribute to eswiki, then again it's reasonable to take that as having been disclosed to the English Wikipedia. However, if you state something on the e.g. Russian wikisource's equivalent of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, and don't link to that page here, then it has not been disclosed to the English Wikipedia. Obviously there will be many things in between the extremes that can only be decided on a case-by-case basis. However, unless you are sure it has been intentionally or obviously disclosed somewhere it is reasonable to expect English Wikipedia editors to be aware of, then assume it has not been disclosed. Thryduulf ( talk) 18:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by hako
@
Levivich Statement by Jclemens
CaptainEek Statements like
Statement by LevivichA couple of days ago on WPO, Vigilant, the WPO user who most often doxes Wikipedia editors and openly threatens to continue doing so, wrote, in response to Eek's comments here, "Sounds like Eek needs an exposé" (link omitted). JSS/Beebs, you posted in that same thread over there six times since that post was made, and not a single word about this very open threat. Here, your third post is "Dispairaiging remarks like 'No need to point people to WPO to hear ten blocked trolls give their opinions on it.' aren't helpful." That's pretty bad: you take the time to criticize someone for criticizing WPO, but you don't criticize WPO for threatening to 'expose' editors. (Also, Beebs, give up the "but they read it!" line of argument. Of course people who criticize WPO read it. Just like people on WPO read Wikipedia even though they criticize Wikipedia. This is not the "gotcha" that you seem to think it is: if people didn't criticize things they read, or didn't read the things they criticize, there would no criticism at all. Perhaps that's what you want?) So w/r/t JSS's comment in the OP that "this has the potential to create a chilling effect where users will be afraid to post anything at all on off-wiki criticism sites," that chilling effect is good and we want that. Just like WPO is trying to create a chilling effect on Wikipedia by threatening to dox editors they disagree with, Wikipedia should create a chilling effect, or a taboo, about participating in off-wiki websites that dox editors, even if those websites refer to themselves as "criticism sites." There are other reasons not to have a blanket prohibition on linking or referring to another website (one of those reasons is so we can call people out for their Statement by JPxGWhile I think the idea of prohibiting mention of the ignominious badsites and offsites was done with the best of intentions, it seems to very obviously and directly facilitate and enable any manner of bad behavior. In general, the way it ends up working in practice is something like:
Here is another example:
Another:
Whatever the reasoning was behind this omerta stuff, it seems in practice to have almost entirely bad implications -- it certainly doesn't stop people from going to WPO and doing whatever they want (trash-talking other editors, getting out the vote for RfCs/AfDs/etc, weird mafioso larping) -- the only thing it actually stops is us talking about it or doing something about it. Contrariwise, this isn't even much of a benefit for WPO -- people onwiki are also completely free to just say stuff with no evidence because "well I can't link to it or tell anybody what it is". jp× g 🗯️ 03:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ValjeanAs the victim of doxxing (and threats of same) and nasty, uncivil, and snide criticism on the named off-wiki website by at least one admin (who should lose their tools) and a few fringe(*) editors here, the comment by @ Just Step Sideways: is very ironic. (* "Fringe" is defined as editors who get their POV from unreliable sources and edit and discuss accordingly here.) Just Step Sideways writes:
Whatever happened to the matter of far more importance to Wikipedia, and that is the chilling effect HERE created by those nasty off-wiki comments from other editors who should be considered good-faith colleagues here? How can one edit and discuss around such editors and ever feel safe again? The "enjoyment of editing" here is totally undermined by them. Trust has been violated. The chilling effect is enormous and constant, and one lives under a cloud of pressure from their illicit and bad faith stalking and harassment. I know this will immediately be reported there by traitors from here, but it needs to be said. Editors need to be protected, and their enjoyment of editing here should not be threatened by uncollegial criticism, snide comments, and threats of doxxing elsewhere. It invites even worse behavior from bad actors who may not even be editors here. It's a dog whistle. Editors need to make a choice between their loyalty to Wikipedia and its editors versus their social life elsewhere. Keep a wall between them. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 20:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC) Thanks to @ Levivich:, @ Vanamonde93:, and @ JPxG: for your insights. You seem to understand the problem. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 20:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by CarritePuzzling that Beebs would feel the need to poke a stick into a beehive. This is not an Arb matter, if anything it is a community matter, and it's really not that. Criticism websites have existed almost as long as there has been a Wikipedia and over these 15+ years, people have a pretty good implied understanding of what is in and what is out. Mentions are one thing, links maybe another. In any event, it strikes me as dumb to overgeneralize about a message board as it is to overgeneralize about Wikipedia — projecting its worst foibles as in some way representative of the whole. This is clearly a No Action sort of request, methinks, and good for that. For those of you who demonize WPO, pop over and have a beer with us sometime, we don't bite very hard. —tim /// Carrite ( talk) 23:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by MangoeWe rejected this back in 2007. Could we please stop trying to sneak it back in? Mangoe ( talk) 00:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by LightburstRecently an administrator in an AfD linked to WPO as an argument for their !vote in AfD. I notified the administrator who posted this link that there are personal attacks about me in the thread. The admin ignored my concern. I notified arbcom multiple times and they ignored me. I notified oversight and they ignored me. So it appears to me that we are selective in who we protect here on the project. Me, not so much, the RFA candidate? Yes. I am especially disappointed in Barkeep49 and the arbcom crew for their complete lack of attention to this issue. When it is against policy to use PAs but it is ok to link to an outside site that allows PAs we have a reason to be concerned. The AfD was clearly canvassed at WPO and editors came to Wikipedia en-masse to ignore our guidelines and policies so they could remove the article. That canvassing is a separate issue but certainly tied to the same issue. Listen it is creepy having this anti-wikipedia site linked to us like a sister project. It is even creepier that some admins are enthusiastic supporters and participants at WPO. Lightburst ( talk) 15:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by isaaclRegarding copyright of email: as I've discussed previously, the real issue is privacy, and not copyright. Copyright doesn't prevent paraphrasing, and is about protecting the author's rights to profit from their work. What the Wikipedia community can do to try to enforce expectations of privacy in email (either implicit or explicit) is limited. isaacl ( talk) 21:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Darkfrog24The state of things is that Wikipedia is an important website, and over the decades it's become a serious website. People may want to act and speak differently here than they do in less formal settings like Discord. The dress code at the office need not apply to the sidewalk. It can also be a frustrating website, and adopting a general policy of "Do what you like but don't do it here. Oh, you're already not doing it here? Okay we're good then" is probably the healthy response. We do have some precedent for sanctioning people for off-wiki actions, such as WP:MEATPUPPET, deliberately recruiting participants to affect on-Wiki events. But they've been pretty limited and pretty strictly defined. So while possibly sanctioning someone who harasses another Wikipedian for reasons directly related to Wikipedia might be appropriate, I've been very glad of WP:OUTING's strict take over the years. Here I was saying to myself, "I can't think of any good reason someone would link to an off-Wiki thread that includes outing," and then JPxG gives us three. I still favor the strict protection of WP:OUTING, but now I know where the tradeoff is. This is a balance we strike and not a freebie that costs us nothing. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 19:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. mentioning the name of off-wiki threads: Clerk notes
mentioning the name of off-wiki threads: Arbitrator views and discussion
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There is a rough consensus among participating Committee members that pursuant to Wikipedia:Contentious topics § Restriction notices, protections carried out under the procedure do not require an editnotice. While topic-wide restrictions do not require editnotices (though any user may add one to a page), page-specific restrictions do: editors may ask enforcing administrators to add any missing page-specific ones. There was no appetite among responding members to remove the requirements behind editnotices. Sdrqaz ( talk) 00:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by EggRoll97 at 03:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by EggRoll97Multiple pages protected under contentious topics procedures this year alone (see
WP:AEL#Armenia-Azerbaijan_(CT/A-A) for just a sample) have been protected under arbitration enforcement but have no editnotice or other restriction notice applied to the page. This is despite a line recurring in contentious topics procedures pages being, in part, Because of this, I ask for clarification as to whether these editnotices can be added to pages by any editor if the enforcing administrator has not done so, or whether they may only be added by the administrator who has applied the page restriction.
Statement by SelfstudierThe edit notice can be added by editors with the page mover permission. Idk whether the idea of CT was to do away with this requirement but I don't think it did so in my usual area (AI/IP), the Arbpia edit notice (and talk page notice which can be added by any editor) is needed in general. Selfstudier ( talk) 08:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by FirefangledfeathersEditnotices can be created by administrators, page movers, and template editors. If an editnotice exists, most editors can edit it, and I'd support non-admins rectifying clerical errors wherever possible. Speaking of which, if someone wants to collect some pages that need editnotices, I'm happy to cross a bunch of them off the list. Arbs, I'd suggest that common practice has moved away from such editnotices being necessary. Between admins forgetting, banner blindness, and mobile editors not seeing them at all, I don't think the notices are meaningful in generating awareness of the restriction. Enforcement of restrictions these days tends to be dependent on both formal CTOP awareness and a request to self-revert being ignored or declined, meaning a few other checks are in place to avoid unwarranted sanctions. Would the committee consider changing this requirement to a recommendation? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 18:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Contentious topics restrictions: Clerk notes
Contentious topics restrictions: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Initiated by My very best wishes at 23:27, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
My editing restrictions were based on the findings of fact about my comments during the arbitration. This FoF tells about two issues.
The topic ban always struck me as one that shouldn't have happened. There simply wasn't anything in evidence that MVBW had problems in the topic area; and topic-bans are meant to be preventative, not punitive. I can understand why it happened (ArbCom needs to maintain decorum during cases and has a limited toolbox to enforce that) but if they felt something was necessary, just the interaction ban, ejecting MVBW from that specific case during the case, or at most restrictions on participation in future ArbCom cases where MVBW isn't a party would have made more sense, since those were the actual issues it was supposed to resolve. Beyond this specific instance, I feel that ArbCom might want to consider how they'll enforce decorum in cases in the future and what sort of sanctions someone can / ought to get for issues that are solely confined to the case pages itself like this - partially it feels like the topic ban happened because there wasn't a clear precedent of what to do, so they just tossed MVBW into the bin of the same sanctions they were leveling at everyone else even if it didn't make sense. Possibly more willingness to eject unhelpful third parties from specific cases while the case is in progress could be helpful. -- Aquillion ( talk) 21:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Note that My very best wishes is also subject to an overlapping AE topic ban (
WP:AELOG/2023#Eastern Europe: My very best wishes is topic-banned from the areas of World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, and is warned that further disruption may lead to a topic ban from the whole Eastern Europe topic area, without further warning. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she
)
* Pppery *
it has begun...
15:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Acknowledging courtesy ping. To nitpick procedurally, the TBAN I enacted was an AE-consensus sanction, not an individual one. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive319 § My very best wishes. Courtesy pings to @ ScottishFinnishRadish, Courcelles, Valereee, Seraphimblade, and Guerillero, who participated in the admin discussion there. I personally have no opinion on whether to lift the sanction. -- Tamzin[ cetacean needed ( they|xe) 22:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
I remain of the opinion that MVBW should not be under an iban. Would someone kindly be able to explain to me what preventative purpose it is serving? Any "don't do this again" message (both to MVBW and people in the future who might consider disruptively defending someone at ArbCom) has surely been received at this point, so I don't see it remaining serving as a further deterrent. House Blaster ( talk · he/they) 23:56, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
My very best wishes' has minimized his history with Piotrus and Volunter Marek.
My very best wishes (then known as User:Biophys) cooperated off wiki with Piotrus and Volunteer Marek (then known as User:radeksz) in order to influence articles' contents and to get opposing editors sanctioned. Details are available at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list. The case resulted in Eastern Europe's listing as a contentious topic for Arbitration enforcement.
TFD ( talk) 17:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Elinruby, I did not say that MVBW's involvement in the Eastern European Mailing List (EEML) should affect the current application. I said that MVBW "has minimized his history with Piotrus and Volunter Marek." He wrote above, "I never met them in "real life", but I interacted with them on many pages in various subject areas." No one asked him to bring up his previous relationship, but if he does, it should be the whole truth. TFD ( talk) 20:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Elinruby, there is no reason I should disclose my interactions with you since it has nothing to do with the topic under discussion.
MYBW wrote, "I never met them in "real life", but I interacted with them on many pages in various subject areas." Do you think that is a fair and accurate reflection of their previous interactions?
My advice to you and to myself is to let the administrators decide what signficance if any it has.
TFD ( talk) 23:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I want to say that MVBW is an invaluable contributor, particularly when it comes to Russia and Russians. I deeply regretted losing contact with him because of the topic ban, given that I was still trying to straighten out the pages about collaboration with Nazi Germany and was talking to Polish editors about that.
I was a party to the Holocaust in Poland Arbcom case. as best I can tell for much the same reasons as MVBW; we were editing in the topic area of the war in Ukraine at the same time as VM and Gitz6666. I protested the topic ban at the time. MVBW is interested in the war in Ukraine, and not Poland. However the history of the region is such that part of Ukraine was once part of Poland (to vastly oversimplify) and I completely understand both that it would be difficult to respect a topic ban and that it would be necessary to break ties with me because of it.
If it is relevant to anyone's thinking I strongly support removing this topic ban. I do not think the interaction ban is necessary either; he seems pretty serious about addressing the Committee's concerns. Elinruby ( talk) 18:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Remedy 5.1 of World War II and the history of Jews in Poland (the topic ban on My very best wishes) is repealed. Remedy 5.2 (the 1-way interaction ban) remains in effect.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 2 arbitrators abstaining, 4 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Remedies 5.1 and 5.2 of World War II and the history of Jews in Poland (the topic and interaction bans on My very best wishes, respectively) are repealed.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 1 arbitrator abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
My very best wishes' topic ban from World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, imposed under the Eastern Europe contentious topic procedures, is repealed.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
There is a rough consensus among participating arbs that there is no COI exemption to the principle asked about and that the principle remains true with current policies and guidelines. Barkeep49 ( talk) 23:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC) | ||||||||||||
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Initiated by Clovermoss at 16:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by ClovermossThis case was recently linked in a disagreement over at Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Distinguishing characteristic of this church. Horse Eye's Back asked if an editor was a member of the church here and Hydrangeans linked to the above case here. Responses were [20] [21]. I'm not trying to open a case request about LDS editing but simply clarify if there is a COI exemption under principle 9. I think COI concerns qualify as a legitimate purpose. But I also don't think that a person editing an article about their perceived religious beliefs is inherently a COI that needs to be disclosed per WP:EXTERNALREL. I think there needs to be a higher bar than "you're editing this article. Are you x?" [22] Therefore I think there's some vagueness here that should be clarified.
This issue has broader implications in the community. I link to a discussion about that in my "are you x?" statement above. There, an editor said
Statement by ජපසI think that (a) religious faith is not disconfirming for editing material relevant to that faith tradition but (b) it is not not disconfirming either. For me, in an ideal world, Wikipedia would stick to these general principles:
I know that my position is likely the minority one, but I still maintain that this is a better system than the current Don't Ask, Don't Tell-like approaches others seem to favor. jps ( talk) 17:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by HydrangeansOn whether religious background constitutes a COI requiring disclosure and therefore should be exempt from the expectation in
principle 9 of Noleander, I'd point out
a recent ANI thread (
permalink; for transparency it was a thread I commented in) in which users described as disruptive behavior an editor acting on a belief that being Muslim constituted a conflict of interest with Islam (primarily in the context of how that editor assessed the independence of academically published authors, though
OP also brought up that the editor implied Muslim users should be disregarded in discussions about Muslim topics) (the editor was ultimately
topic banned from pages about Islam; other reasons expressed included POV editing, and
Noleander was also cited). This suggests that considering religious affiliation a COI requiring disclosure, as
Horse Eye's Back claims ( I'm inclined to Ghosts of Europa's point that treating religious background (or racial or ethnic background for that matter, the other examples in Noleander) as a COI, expecting it to be disclosed, and considering questions about such unproblematic has an unproductive chilling effect. Whatever the intent behind such questioning, its outcome can result in circumventing the process of achieving consensus in discussions by focusing on participants' perceived backgrounds instead of focusing on content. While Noleander recognizes the possibility that posing a reference or question could in
Statement by FyzixFighterThe question in general appears to me to be whether or not COI provides cover for asking for another editor's religious affiliation, contrary to principle 9 here. Such a question assumes that there is necessarily a contradiction between the two, and I would argue there is none. First, multiple discussions on WP:COIN and the policy talk page of WP:COI have agreed that membership in a religion does not rise to the level of a required disclosure of COI. See for example Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest#Updated proposed text for a shorter and clearer COI guideline, Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive 34#Religious COI, Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive 31#Clearer on religious background, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 190#Question about whether being a former member of a religion counts as a COI. I can find no instances where the community has said that being a member of a religion, current or former, is a reportable COI. Second, even if religious affiliation did require disclosure (and again there is no evidence the community considers this to be the case), the process for dealing with an undisclosed COI does not involve demanding or referencing the suspected religious background. Rather, per WP:COI#How to handle conflicts of interest, the correct process is to ask the user on their talk page if they have an undisclosed COI relative to the article subject. If that fails to resolve the issue, the next step is to take it to WP:COIN. Just as there is no necessary contradiction between WP:OUTING and WP:COI, there is no contradiction here. With regards to this instance in particular, it has been noted in multiple places, including a ANI discussion earlier this year, that Horse Eye's Back's "interpretation of COI is way too expansive" than that defined in WP:COI. While Horse Eye's Back references COI, his description of the situation appears to be rather a concern of bias and advocacy. Most advocacy does not involve COI (such as, as noted previously, religious background), and is better addressed via WP:NPOVN instead of a discussion-chilling ultimatum that another editor self-OUT in the name of COI. Even if this did fall under COI, the proper process would have been to use Awilley's user talk page, ask if they had an undisclosed COI relative to the page (a simple yes/no question that does not require someone to self-OUT), and then go to COIN if there is additional question or concern. Horse Eye's Back is aware of this process and it has been pointed out to them multiple times previously. And yet, they continue to choose not to follow it. -- FyzixFighter ( talk) 01:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by AwilleyI haven't had time to read the Noleander case or even the follow-up conversation on the LDS talk page. I saw that there was a content dispute there the other day over the 1st sentence, so I chipped in with my 2 cents. What seems to have triggered this was my lighthearted reaction to the hypothetical Q&A about how we should be introducing readers to unfamiliar topics in the first sentence. So the Q's are what questions the reader might have, and the A's are how we might be trying to answer those questions in the first sentence. Horse's Eye Back had proposed the following Q&A:
I responded with:
This is true. If you break down the sects that claim Joseph Smith as founder, you get the following:
The Community of Christ (#2) does not fit into what we usually call "Mormonism". They never adopted the early "Mormon" tradition of polygamy, and because of the Utah polygamy, they did everything they could to distance themselves from that branch, including rejecting the name "Mormon". There are also doctrinal differences. (They're trinitarian, Mormonism is nontrinitarian. Mormons accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, CoC not so much.) That leaves us with Group #1 and Group #3. Group #3 as a whole is universally referred to as "Mormon Fundamentalism". Many of these groups continue to practice polygamy. If styleguides mention these groups, they're usually telling us not to refer to these small branches as "the Mormon Church". The TLDR is: the words "Mormon Church" unambiguously refer to the LDS Church, even though the LDS Church rejects that title. That's what you'll find in pretty much any source that uses the term (which many don't). And that was the point I was trying to make with my lighthearted comment above. You don't need to differentiate the 99.75% from the 0.25% in the first sentence. I don't really understand why HEB immediately assumed that was "bigotry" or why they're still making such a big deal out of this comment. I was just going to ignore it and move on, but now that we're here, I hope my statement helps clarify the matter. ~ Awilley ( talk) 21:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Horse Eye's Back
Statement by Ghosts of EuropaIf we allow a COI exemption but define COI too broadly, I worry we'll create a chilling effect. It's one thing if you're employed as a priest. It's another if, like 1/8th of the world, you're a baptized Catholic who sometimes goes to church. Horse Eye's Back has said that even "belonging to a competitor" can be a COI. [31] Does this mean Muslims need to declare themselves when editing the page Catholic Church? Do secular humanists? There are countless reasons people may not be comfortable publicly disclosing their religious beliefs. This could scare away a lot of editors who might otherwise do great work. Ghosts of Europa ( talk) 19:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Tryptofish (Noleander)I'm old enough in Wiki-years that I actually participated in giving evidence in the Noleander case. Here, it's been noted that a Principle from that case came up in talk during the present dispute. That Principle concerns the importance of not making "unnecessary references" to religious or other personal characteristics of other editors, distinguished from references that "clearly serve a legitimate purpose". It was arrived at in the context of an ArbCom case about alleged antisemitic content creation. I haven't followed the details of the present dispute, but I don't think the ArbCom case for which clarification is sought ever really dealt with COI issues (and thus, whether COI concerns do, or do not, "serve a legitimate purpose"). I think ArbCom can legitimately comment here that slurs or personal attacks against other editors (I'm not saying that such things occurred here) are impermissible, based on the WP:NPA policy and with or without ArbCom precedent. I'm inclined to think, however, that drawing the line between acceptable inquiries about COI, and unacceptable inquiries, is a community matter, rather than an ArbCom one. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Red-tailed hawkMy understanding is that editors are not required to disclose their religious affiliation when editing Wikipedia, and I think that Horse Eye's Back is plainly incorrect in
this edit. As
WP:EXTERNALREL notes,
Statement by ElinrubyHi. I have not been involved in this thread to date and am only vaguely aware of its history. I will be delighted to help the committee in any way, but until I have a better idea whether I am here over my remarks about Kaalakaa, the proper way of referring to the prophet Muhammed, or the genocide in residential schools, I think I will wait until someone asks me a question. Please ping. Based on a very fast skim, on the whole I tend to agree with jps, if that helps anyone somehow. Also, committee members, please note that my email address currently does not work, so if someone answered me about my previously-submitted private evidence, I have not yet seen that. Nobody's fault but mine of course, so I guess I will go swap in a new email address pending any questions. Btw, Haeb seems to be trying to excuse himself based on his comments to HEB; since he has been hounding me about some of the above, if we are talking about those things here, then I think the If the committee has not yet taken note of the private evidence, it went through the main Arbitration Committee link a couple-three days ago btw. Elinruby ( talk) 06:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
References Statement by My very best wishesSomeone having merely a personal religious belief is a bias, not WP:COI. However, someone going to certain Church and paying their dues may fall under WP:COI per "Any external relationship—personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial (including holding a cryptocurrency)—can trigger a COI.". Being a member of a religious organization is not different from being a member of any other private or public organization, and as such can trigger WP:COI. Therefore, asking if someone has an external relationship that could trigger a WP:COI is a legitimate question, not a discrimination. Still, it would be inappropriate to ask such a question just out of blue. That would be appropriate only if the behavior by a user indicates the presence of a significant COI that may negatively affect their editing. My very best wishes ( talk) 15:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Jclemens (Noleander)
My very best wishes, this is entirely and totally backwards:
Statement by ZanaharyIt seems the arguments in defense of the right to ask questions about an editor’s demography or associations in content disputes assume that it is useful to try and figure out why an editor, besides their stated rationale, might believe what they are saying. In other words, that it can be useful to figure out where an editor’s bias comes from. This approach favors arguing with people rather than arguing for outcomes, and I don’t think it serves the encyclopedia well. It shouldn’t matter in a content dispute whether an editor’s apparent position can be explained by bias predictably related to their religious affiliation, their race, their country of origin, or their political alignment. Content disputes are about content, not the figures at play in its editing, and arguments about forces potentially influencing an editor’s perceptions, which in turn influence their position in the dispute, are personal arguments. Personal arguments should be avoided altogether, and there should certainly be no sacrifices made to protect their continued existence (consider the short bridge to personal attacks, and the necessarily discriminatory basis for making judgments of editors that take into account their religion, race, sex, nationality, and so on). As for whether belonging to a church qualifies as a COI, I say certainly not, and there’s no reason why an interpretation of the COI policy that includes religious alignment wouldn’t also include an editor’s race, personal beliefs, place of origin, sexual orientation, et cetera. Basically: questions about association and demography belong to disputes between editors, not disputes about content, and I urge the Committee not to protect the right to pursue personal disputes (which don’t serve the project) at the expense of the right to have one’s edits be interpreted free of personal and demographic baggage. And belonging to a church is not a COI. ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 22:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by NewyorkbradAs an arbitrator I drafted most of the decision in the Noleander case, which it's hard for me to believe was 13 years ago. I think the principles I drafted stand up well to rereading at this late date; but as I just pointed out in another section of this page, there is a limit to how much any discussion of current policy should be steered by a general principle contained in a wiki-ancient arbitration decision which, like any ArbCom decision, was written in the context of a particular set of facts. That being said, those who flatter me by seeking guidance from principles contained in old ArbCom decisions that I drafted in my past wiki-life might also enjoy Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/International Churches of Christ#Conflict of interest, although the relevant policies have evolved somewhat since that time (as has the threshold of disruption necessary to trigger an ArbCom case to begin with, but I digress). An editor's membership in a given religious group or adherence to particular religious beliefs, nor the lack of such membership or beliefs, does not give rise to a "conflict of interest" that must be disclosed or should generally be inquired about. In this context, non-neutral, biased, or otherwise disruptive editing can almost always be addressed on its own merits without asking intrusive questions about editors' personal attributes or beliefs. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 14:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Noleander: Clerk notes
Noleander: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Initiated by Joe Roe at 16:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence) or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. See Wikipedia:Copyrights.
Any uninvolved administrator may remove private correspondence that has been posted without the consent of any of the creators. Such material should instead be sent directly to the Committee.
Following up on #Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads, I would like to request that committee formally rescind these two principles. The ArbCom of 2007 were playing armchair lawyer here. It isn't up to us to decide whether or not emails are subject to copyright (apparently the real lawyers are still arguing about it). But it's also not relevant, because the conclusion drawn in these two principles—that if something is copyrighted it can never be posted on-wiki—is nonsense. We post copyrighted text without permission all the time in the form of quotations, and quoting off-wiki correspondence when it is relevant to on-wiki discussions is no different. The right to quote is protected in all copyright regimes.
I don't expect that rescinding these principles will have any immediate effect, because policy currently forbids the posting of off-wiki correspondence because it's considered personal information, not for copyright reasons. However, the 2007 decision is still sporadically referenced in policies and guidelines, most notably in WP:EMAILPOST. Formally removing it would help clarify the consensus status of these policies and generally make it easier to discuss the issue of off-wiki communication without old, faulty reasoning getting in the way. – Joe ( talk) 16:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
This is overdue. Those principles, explicitly citing WP:EMAILABUSE, were used to suppress quotes of positive correspondence I'd received via email (using the 'email this user' feature) and posted to my own user talk page--after my most memorable screw-up and consequently at the end of my tenure on Arbcom. What's left is at User talk:Jclemens/Archive 12#Mailbag if anyone wants to read about it, and this is what was stricken. Given what all else was happening at that time, I never brought it up for further review. Now that a dozen years have passed, can we agree that the principle was wrong from the get-go and never appropriate? Jclemens ( talk) 18:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Reposting or quoting from e-mails intended to be private, without the consent of the author, is at best discourteous and should generally be avoided. One can imagine unusual circumstances that could warrant making an exception; but the mere fact that it's readily possible to forward or copy e-mails does not mean that we should disregard everyone's privacy or disclose their confidential information on a wholesale basis. Significantly, this is a separate issue from copyright.
As for the copyright issue: Under the
copyright statute that has been in effect in the United States since 1978 (I can't speak about other countries), copyright generally exists automatically whenever anyone writes something original, whether on paper or electronically; this certainly includes e-mails. (The statutory language: Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.
) When someone quotes from an e-mail without permission, they are implicitly making a
fair use claim, just as if they were quoting from a written letter or a blog or a magazine or a book. I do not recommend that the ArbCom attempt to define the confines of fair use, in this situation or any other.
Newyorkbrad (
talk)
21:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
There appear to be some unexamined assumptions in what New York Brad writes. The first is where does his idea come from that this is limited to "quotes", when the holding speaks of "content", one can share content without quotes (indeed most Wikipedians do that everyday in our articles). And no its not always CVIO, words still belong to everyone, so a quoted a word or short phrase is not going to be CVIO. Also, his idea of "courtesy" has to be culturally specific and more importantly circumstantial, as there are all kinds of e-mails, and probably only those that explicitly say, 'this is private', and the author has a reasonable expectation. There are a bunch of situations where the receiver would think the sender has no such reasonable expectation (even if they say its private, depending on the situation and the content). Also "private information", what do you mean, do you mean name address, ph, etc or is it being used ambiguously to mean everything. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 16:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I think the premise of prohibiting this on the basis of it being a copyright violation to be a bit odd. I think there's other reasons to be cautious about sharing information from private correspondence but copyright is not what comes to mind. I live in a place where one-party consent is a thing. While that's what legally allowed, if I went around recording every personal conversation I had with someone most people would see that as unnecessarily invasive and rude. I think there needs to be a good reason to share such information without explicit consent. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I was rather surprised to see Durova's name in my watchlist today, seeing as she hasn't edited in a very long time, so curiousity is what brought me to this conversation. Upon reviewing this I have to agree that ArbCom erred here. The committee should not be making rulings in matters of law, and it shouldn't be giving talking points for lame wikilawyering. As Joe states this will have little to no practical effect in practice other than to take away said talking point, our local policies remain in effect in this regard.
2007 was near the end of the "Wild West" era of Wikipedia governance, we hadn't quite nailed down certain boundaries at that time as we have now. This is simply correcting an error from that period and relegating it to the past. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I said this in the other section above (in re the mentioning of offwiki fora), but I concur with the people here who have said that the copyright thing is ludicrous. Whatever our policy is on reproducing off-wiki correspondence, the claim that it is specifically a copyright violation is so asinine as to resemble satire -- there is no other place on the whole of the project where we interpret copyright in this derangedly expansive way. If we are to have a rule forbiding emails to be posted here, that's fine, but the basis for this should be the rule, not some made-up nonsense about copyright law. jp× g 🗯️ 03:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
For convenience, see [47] for a side-by-side view of the proposed change.
Regarding concerns about the implications of the change, they can be discussed as part of the rationale of the motion, and linked to in the principle. isaacl ( talk) 16:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
My opinion mirrors that of Newyorkbrad, Clovermoss and ToBeFree. The copyright and fair use status of emails is complex. We do not need to go there because if somebody wanted to post a message on Wikipedia, the would do so. The fact that a message is sent by email implies that it should not be redistributed without permission in general, subject to reasonable exceptions in unusual circumstances.
I recommend cleaning up the wording of the decision to say that private correspondence should generally be kept private, and only posted online where there is reasonable justification for doing so. To begin, ask permission of the email author. If permission is not obtained, consider whether posting the email would be rude or harassing. Editors may be sanctioned for posting private correspondence when the effect more about harassment than improving the encyclopedia. To play it safe, forward relevant private correspondence to ArbCom and let them decide whether or not it should be posted publicly.
If an email is itself harassing, malicious, or otherwise seriously unwelcome, then any expectation of privacy goes out the window. Hopefully such circumstances will be rare. Jehochman Talk 16:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
A quick review of Wikipedia:Copyright does not appear to address anything written (or copied) outside of content space. It seems irrelevant to the issue related to conduct by contributors outside of that space and, I suggest, should be removed. As an aside, I agree that removing any indication of ArbCom determining what falls under Copyright law is a bonus. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 16:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
@ ToBeFree: I see Guerillero's point; the "changed from" text is not really the "changed from" text, it's the "changed to" text, using strikeouts. In this particular case, I suppose everyone knows what is meant, but for the future, you should either say "changed as follows" and then use strikeouts and underlines, or keep the from/to system but remove the strikouts. Or, even better, use Isaacl's formatting, which is probably more familiar to Wikipedians. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 18:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Principle 2 of
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova, Private correspondence, is changed from2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence)
or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. See Wikipedia:Copyrights.
to2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence), the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki.
For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Initiated by Just Step Sideways at 18:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
My apologies to the rest of the community, but there won't be much opportunity for any of you to make informed comments here as the evidence here is private.
It is part of ArbCom's public record that I was issued a "formal warning" in September 2021. This is false. I obviously can't reproduce the email discussion here, but I would ask each arbitrator to search the b-list archives for September 2021 for the thread "FAO: Beeblebrox - regarding recent comments" and tell me if they see a formal warning in there. WTT and myself had a fairly cordial discussion, in which he did make it clear he was speaking on behalf of the committee, but there absolutely is not a "formal warning".
Did the committee vote ont he b-list to issue one? I don't know as I no longer have access to the archives, but I'm pretty sure it would requirte a formal vote to issue a formal warning to a sitting arbitrator.
This was clearly put into this decision to imply there was some precedent of me being warned for discussing private communication on off-wiki criticism sites, when the not-a-warning mainly discussed the tone of my remarks on Commons and off-wiki, and also what I fully admit was an inexcusable comment I made in error on an internal mailing list, which obviously is an entirely seperate issue. The only part of it with any implication of private information two words that probably could've been left unsaid, and again, it was manifestly not a formal warning.
I'm not trying to excuse my own behavior. I did what the committee said I did, but the committee did not do what it said it did. This false information should be struck from the record. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 18:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
If it wasn't a warning, then what exactly did you think it was?It was not worded as a warning, it's a list of concerns, most of which have no relation whatsoever with the reason I was suspended. I explained my position on itat ARBN [49] after the suspension was announced:
Three things were mentioned in that incident. One was comments I made on another WMF site about a user on that site, along with a parrelell conversation at Wikipediocracy. It had literally nothing to do with the committee or any kind of confidential information, some people just didn't like it. That's it. No actual policy violation. Another was my supposed outing of the troll who is at the center of all of this. There was no outing. Anyone in possession of even half of the facts knows this. No confidentail information of any kind was involved, and again it was utterly unrelated to any arbcom business. The third thing mentioned in there was a remark I did make on one of the mailing lists that I deeply regret. I beilieve what happened was that I thought I was commenting on the ArbCom list when it was in fact the functionaries list and my comment was about a specific member of that team, and not a very positive one. I never intended to insult this user, let alone to do so in front of their peers. It was an error apparenty due to innatention and I apologized to the user and to other functionaries who expressed their dismay about it. So, that's what that is about. I therefore do not agree that the more recent incident was part of a pattern as it was none of the things I was warned about.
the actual text, lightly redacted, of my email response to the committee's concerns.
|
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I have to admit, I have trouble not being a mouthy smartass when it comes to Fae. I guess it's one of those "you can laugh or you can cry" things, it seems obvious to me that he should've been thrown out of the movement entirely a long time ago, but Commons is so broken as a community that they continue to tolerate his nonsense so long as he continues to make a big deal of the sheer number of robotic uploads he's made. So, I made an extremely sarcastic comment when Fae floated the idea that if the WMF wouldn't pay him, maybe he could get the general public to do so, using a "tip jar" which by my understanding is basically how OnlyFans works, yet somehow pointing that out is the most offensive thing anyone has ever said. That's what actually upset them, the rest is just Fae being Fae. And then when Rodhullandemu started acting as his attack dog that just turned the ridiculousness level up to 11. Two little peas in a pod, both playing the victim and the bully at the same time. And I freely admit that I was very dismissive of his super-dramatic overreaction to the whole thing, re-posting every word I posted on WO as "evidence" that I was directly encouraging people to physically attack his home, which is the apparent basis of this report to T&S. If they find that compelling, I guess I'm done here. If I had actually done that, I would totally deserve an office ban and whatever other ban came my way, but I'm quite certain I did no such thing. For me, it was distressing to see Fae's outright lies and Rodhulls creepy threats spread onto en.wp by Owen Blacker, who I don't believe had any involvement in the Commons discussion and was clearly acting as Fae's proxy without doing any critical thinking about the merit of the accusations. On the other hand, the <email posted to the wrong list> comment.... I don't know what happened there, I think in my mind I was talking to the committee, or maybe just the OS team, certainly not the full functionaries list. As you all know I often use a more informal tone on our mailing list, and somehow it slipped into another conversation where it was obviously not appropriate. It was a giant screw up and I feel like a jerk about it and have reached out to some of the other functionaries who seemed particularly distressed by it. I was recovering from covid at the time and maybe it made my brain a little ...fuzzy? That's not an excuse but maybe it's at least sort of an explanation. To the other two points: The Lourdes incident was a good faith error that she made 50 times worse by her very public reaction to it. We've since come to an understanding, as far as I know she has accepted that I honestly meant her no harm and certainly wasn't trying to maliciously out her, and she copped to the fact that the way she approached a solution was exactly the wrong way. It's worth noting that, at that time, it did not require any advanced permissions to see the edits she had made where she self-outed. They had been visible to one and all for about five years. The <redacted> thing, all I really said there was reiterating that we were not making a statement on <redacted> and everyone should just accept that sometimes, we just don't know what really happened.I don't feel like I let out anything that someone couldn't guess for themselves by saying <redacted> but I o dget the point that that could've gone unsaid. I suppose I could've said nothing at all, in all honesty that is a skill I have tried to work on, when to just shut up, but I know I miss the mark sometimes. I am also trying to make myself get less screen time on the whole, It's been really bad ever since lockdown last year, and I find that it is often when I've been online all day that I say or do something that upsets people. I'm working on it, I built a tiny little campsite in my backyard and have been thoroughly enjoying sitting out there reading a book, having a campfire, or just watching the trees wave in the wind. I do apologize if this has caused undo stress or concern to anyone, especially the <email comment>, thing, which clearly made an unpleasant situation much worse. Feel free to share this with T&S if that seems like it would be helpful, and my apologies to Joe as well, I know he has enough crap to deal with without this. |
As you can see, when these concerns were brought to me, I responded to them by flatly rejecting the validity of large portions of it as not being arbcom business. I apologized for the one glaring error I did make, that in no way involved private information, it was just a screw up. The only part of this laundry list that has any bearing on what came later was two words that were at worst ill considered but did not explicitly reveal anything of real substance. Worm and I talked some more about some of it, but the committee as a whole made no reply to my rejection of the basis of most of this list of concerns.
The committee may have intended it as a formal warning, but it did not come across as one. That's not my fault. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
CaptainEek, to give some outside perspective; from what you've said I would personally not interpret that as a "formal warning" - I would expect such a warning to call itself a warning, or at a least a synonym.
I probably wouldn't even interpret it as a warning, and while that might be a personal flaw, I think its useful for the committee to remember the cultural and neurological diversity of the community here and be very explicit in their communications. BilledMammal ( talk) 22:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
As a former arbitrator who participated in the deliberations with respect to both Rodhullandemu and Fae during my tenure, I would encourage the members of the current committee to review their history during 2011-12. The fact that both are involved in more drama a decade-ish later suggests that my colleagues and I did not do enough to ensure their permanent removal from all WMF projects. I believe there were adequate, although differing, grounds for such known to the committee (and Jimbo, in at least one of the cases) through private evidence at that time. Had the committee then pursued a remedy those familiar with the situation and subsequent events can endorse in retrospect, large parts of the above message would have been unnecessary.
Now, having said that, JustStepSideways, even if you've been done dirty... what outcome do you want? If an apology? Sure, I get the desire, but I question whether the benefit is worth the drama. The committee isn't the greatest at handling internal dissent, and I doubt it ever will be.
But if the fastest way to end this is to s/formal warning/expression of concern/, such a change requires the active agreement of a team of volunteers whom you've just called liars. If they do it, I'm not sure who comes out looking more magnanimous. Jclemens ( talk) 23:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Question for the committee: for those of us outside the loop, what is the difference between a “warning” and a “formal warning” in this context? In other Wikipedia contexts it seems like the analogous difference would be “please don’t do X again” versus “if you do X again, you may be/will be blocked”, but I presume the committee has its own procedures and definitions. 28bytes ( talk) 15:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
From what I've seen, a formal warning usually has the trappings that make it, well, formal. "For the Arbitration Committee" is definitely one of them, but they are generally either Case Remedies or Motions that take the explicit form
User:Example is reminded/warned/admonished that...
. Here
[50]
[51]
[52]
[53] are a few examples of formal warnings I grabbed from the archives; while I obviously don't have access to private motions I'd expect them to be logged privately and have similar trappings to show that they are a motion and a formal warning.
While arbs may have intended the message sent to JSS as a formal warning, the will of Arbcom writ large
isn't always the same thing. Formal warnings include those formalities not just as decoration, but to ensure that there is no ambiguity and misunderstandings like this don't happen.
And now I think I've said the word formal so many times that it's formally lost all meaning... The Wordsmith Talk to me 18:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Is it really that hard to just say "we probably shouldn't have said 'formal warning', we probably should have said 'warning'"? If it's bugging JSS, and does no harm, why not just give him the small win? Even if you don't think it's necessary? Twisting yourself in knots, CaptainEek, to say, essentially, "well even though it wasn't a formal warning, how could he not know it was a formal warning" ... what benefit is served, to anyone? Also, Beeb, please request Oversight back. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 20:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Who wants an unsolicited opinion by a user that has faded into the past but was relevant at the time? It's what this saga needs isn't it? I'll take some blame here - I took the lead in 2021, and therefore the lack of clarity that came out at the end may well have been at least partially down to me and my style. So was the email a "formal warning" - well it didn't include the word "warning", nor did it include any indication of ramifications if the email was not heeded. It was not a "Warning" by arbcom standards "X is warned that..." However, it was clearly a warning - i.e. cautionary advice - and it was formal - i.e. voted upon, out of the blue for JSS & framed as from the committee. In other words, all sides are right from a point of view and digging heels in won't get anyone anywhere.
If that were all I had to say, I wouldn't have dragged my sorry rear end back here - it's patently clear to both sides and should be easy enough to sort out. The problem is hurt, on both sides. Not long ago, JSS was considered one of our best - spoke his mind, engaged with the community and worked hard in the deep meta of Wikipedia. He was attacked for that, as many admins at the coal face are, and since he helped the fall from grace of a few prominent (but oh so problematic) users, he took the brunt of their anger. I saw this, because I took a fair chunk of their anger too. Being in those roles wear at you, and is certainly a contributory factor that I'm not here every day.
I could understand if the committee felt that they could not carry on with one of their number acting in a manner at odds with the committee's psyche. I can even imagine that JSS said something somewhere that crossed a line that that meant he needed to be shown the door. But let's be clear here - the manner in which you as a committee did so has left the encyclopedia in a poorer state. The power imbalance between the individual and the committee is something that every committee member should be painfully aware of, the damage that can be done by making a statement must never outweigh the benefit of that statement. I hope that every committee member considers deeply about whether this sort of thing could have been handled by a "quiet word", firmly but away from public eyes, or even encouraging resignation (jump before push). This should be a time for reflection, a time to ask what could have been done better and how.
My opinion is that the committee can help repair this, for little to no cost from their side besides climbing back down on the issue. I've said above that you're not wrong, but it's not about being right or wrong, it's about doing the right thing
WormTT(
talk)
10:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
To paraphrase Louis Brandeis, the goal of the ArbCom as a whole and of each of its members (past, present, and future) should be to resolve disputes and dramas, not to introduce disputes and dramas of their own. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 12:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
There's a great expression that came up around 2016: "You have a right to your own opinion but not to your own facts." The facts seem to be that ArbCom sent Beeblebrox a message of some kind at the indicated time and about this non-public subject. It also seems that it was intended as a warning. But "Beeblebrox should have understood that it was a warning" is an opinion, and reasonable people may disagree. I think one of the arbs may have hit the nail on the head: "JSS, did you need it spelled out for you that it was bad to do those things and you shouldn't do them again?"
It looks like yes they did. And why not do so? Wikipedia is a diverse, multinational project and not everyone thinks the same way or makes the same assumptions.
I think Floq, Maxim, and Worm have it right. If the description of the message as a formal warning is a problem, why not improve it? The substance of the message, whatever it was, will stay the same. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 19:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
While I still don't think I did anything wrong I understand the concerns expressed by the arbitrators and will not reveal any information I learn as an oversighter. Please let me have that back.we not only should but would basically have no choice to restore your OS and to functionaries. Because that is the difference between removal and a suspension and you'd have done your six month suspension so all should now be restored just as it would have been had you been suspended for six months and your term hadn't been up. And I think there was maybe a majority of the committee ready to vote along with me. Instead you want to rehash whether or not we warned you. Maybe the committee will vote to change it to warned from formally warned - serious question: if we did this would you feel satisfied or would you only be satisfied if we struck the warning characterization altogether? If I could just make the decision to change that wording from formal warning to warning I would reagrdless of whether or not it would make you happy, but I am also incredibly uninterested in spending even a fraction of the time I've spent here on other appeals from other people who think we got a word wrong and would be happier if we struck a word.Maybe the committee will decide to make public the 2021 letter, maybe it won't. My first and second thoughts were that we shouldn't because I have become rather skeptical of partial transparency measures in situations like this and am uninterested in defending how we chose to redact it considering that would be two steps (Warning/not a warning->2021 letter redactions) removed from what we should be doing (voting on restoring your OS and functionary status) and one step away from the actual request made here. Now I'm wavering on those thoughts because transparency is important to me and so despite all my concerns, it might still be the right thing to do.But I'm just overwhelmingly sad that this is what is important to you and what we're spending time on. Which means that in six months when you'd be eligible for another appeal (because I imagine that limitation is what will be set regardless of whether we change formal warning to warning) I'll be off the committee. Or if instead you decide to run for ArbCom again in 4 months you won't be able to benefit from the fact that you've had your access restored. I was never - absent you going off the rails in your response to us which didn't happen - going to vote to remove you because I don't think your offenses merit that (one reason why? I think you are innocent of what Fae accused you of) and because of the incredibly high regard I have held you at all times not related to WPO. And rather than take the hint that I dropped for you in January and here (and which perhaps Sdqraz also tried to drop for you for you) and rather than taking the advice that Floq offered you, you just want to be vindicated about the 2021 email. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. It just feels so small compared to what could have been. Barkeep49 ( talk) 06:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
"previous formal warning ... concerning his conduct in off-wiki forums"is inaccurate at all, even with the benefit of hindsight. However, I could grumble that the warning should have been public given that it was regarding an incumbent member (and I'll check with the others to see if there is any appetite for that now). Sdrqaz ( talk) 22:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
These failures followed a previous formal notice issued...) it would be an accurate description. - Aoidh ( talk) 20:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
The November announcement of the suspension of Beeblebrox is amended to remove the sentence These failures followed a previous formal warning issued to Beeblebrox in September 2021 by the Arbitration Committee concerning his conduct in off-wiki forums.
and insert in its place the sentence In September 2021, within the scope of internal Committee discussions, Beeblebrox was advised that his off-wiki conduct was suboptimal.
Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Simple question: are admins who were desysopped by the committee or who resigned while a party to a case eligible to regain the tools by standing at Wikipedia:Administrator elections? I think the answer is yes, and I am even more certain the answer ought to be yes.
I am bringing this up now – and I am deliberately not naming any individual cases – because it is already going to be a drama-fest when a former admin runs to regain the tools and the ArbCom case in question is brought to the forefront. The last thing we need at that point in time is uncertainty regarding whether any particular ex-admin is even eligible for AELECT and then the inevitable ARCA specific to that case attracting yet more drama. House Blaster ( talk · he/they) 02:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
an alternative to the Requests for Adminship processat WP:ADE, and the rest of the lead describes how it is distinct from RfA. My understanding is that ADE is another way to request adminship, but it is not a big-r Request for Adminship (even though the WP:Requests for adminship page is not capitalized, it is capitalized at WP:ADE and I think that is a good way of communicating the difference). Thinking out loud, perhaps a motion adding something to WP:ARBPRO stating that unless specified otherwise, "requests for adminship" refers to any method of requesting adminship, including a traditional RfA or a successful candidacy at WP:ADE. (And that this applies retroactively.) House Blaster ( talk · he/they) 03:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
I mean, the community
approved a trial, it's
on track to be run in October, and the plan is to
"run the election as written" with no further RfCs. It seems the community has finalized its plans around elections
as much as it's going to, and while it's pretty unlikely that anyone off of
WP:FORCAUSE is going to run in October, I think HouseBlaster is right that giving some sort of guidance now could forestall a lot of drama.
Extraordinary Writ (
talk)
04:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
In my view, the request for adminship process will have two routes for a trial period: the open voting method, and the secret ballot method. Thus the arbitration committee procedure in question covers both routes. isaacl ( talk) 14:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
This is an interesting question. My concern would be the fact that discussion goes on before voting starts and is basically forbidden once voting opens. A candidate could give evasive or incomplete answers to questions for three days, or give no answers until just before voting opens, and that's it. I think there is a small but real risk that this could become a back door for previously problematic admins to slip through. I think the safest road would probably be to consider both options going forward, but to leave previous decisions worded as is. There was no expectation at the time these previous decisions were made that there would be any other path to adminship, it doesn't exactly seem fair to the community to basically retroactively give these users a second path. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 19:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
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By consensus of administrators at this AE thread, Peleio Aquiles ( talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 14:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Peleio Aquiles
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles
WP:CIVIL, WP:FAITH, and WP:BATTLE issues:
Incivil edit summaries:
None that I'm aware of.
I have some other concerns here, mostly relating to WP:OWN, but they would be difficult to articulate without getting into some details of the topic and its edit history. I can elaborate if it would be useful, but I figured the civility issues are more clear-cut, and might suffice to warrant action of some kind. There have been a few comments about my editing history. If admins feel that it's relevant, let me know and I'll address it more fully. Otherwise, I'll keep this brief to minimize distractions. Regarding my tag of Al Jazeera's live blog, WP:ALJAZEERA calls it a WP:NEWSBLOG following a recent RSP workshop. In any case, I think it's generally understood that live update feeds aren't good sources for factual information, and others have not questioned the tag. The other controversy Selfstudier mentioned, relating to the Flour massacre, is a bit more nuanced. If admins feel it's relevant, this was the most recent talk thread about it. — xDanielx T/ C\ R 01:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Peleio AquilesStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Peleio Aquiles
Statement by SelfstudierWell, on the face of it, defendant should take a break, I would like to hear more about this. Selfstudier ( talk) 16:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoylandI have a question. Regarding "If, as respondent says in their reply above, filer is a serial POV-pusher who abuses and distorts Wikipedia's rules to remove content that he dislikes, then respondent needs to provide diffs supporting this. To do otherwise is naked casting of aspersions, and that sort of thing is caustic in contentious topic areas." The filer has provided 11 diffs that show WP:CIVIL, WP:FAITH, and WP:BATTLE issues. This is treated as enough information to make a decision. Are 11 diffs also enough to demonstrate that someone is "a serial POV-pusher who abuses and distorts Wikipedia's rules to remove content that he dislikes", assuming the diffs were consistent with the claim? Sean.hoyland ( talk) 03:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC) Thank you for responding Red-tailed hawk. I asked because it seems possible that both the filer and the respondent may take the view that the other party is not fully complying with the Universal Code of Conduct's prohibition against "Systematically manipulating content to favor specific interpretations of facts or points of view", but neither party has filed a case on that basis with sufficient evidence to demonstrate something like that, and I'm not sure I can even remember seeing a PIA related AE case like that. Even if it is not the case here, it is a common situation in PIA, and it's not entirely clear why cases about bias are not filed. I'm not sure anyone even knows how to do it, hence my question. It's tempting to think it is because it involves too much work to compile the evidence, but people often submit a substantial amount of evidence to support their theories for SPI cases and often spend a lot of time explaining their views on talk pages. As recent PIA topic bans seem to show, this means that AE is largely limiting itself to handling speech rule violations, which are symptoms, rather than dealing with common causes like (mis)perceptions of bias, (mis)perceptions of agenda driven editing etc. And this creates asymmetries where what an editor says becomes more important to their ability to edit in the topic area than their impact on content, where speech becomes more important than a bias, where "manipulating content to favor specific interpretations of facts or points of view" has become normalized and is rarely, if ever, sanctioned. Sometimes article content ends up sort of vibrating between states as we all think we are fixing someone else's bias. This doesn't seem ideal. It would be good if it were as easy to address (mis)perceptions of biased editing here at AE as it is to address speech related violations. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 07:18, 29 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by LonghornsgPlenty more examples of unhelpful WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior of the defendant, including claiming conspiracies on WP, removing sourced material because " it's irrelevant and of concern merely to pro-Israel propagandists", dismissing RS claiming they are "Israeli propaganda", and the list goes on. Longhornsg ( talk) 04:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Peleio Aquiles
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This matter is a content dispute. If parties cannot come to agreement, they are advised to utilize dispute resolution processes. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Shinadamina
The user doesn't seem to be following WP:CIVIL as well. Moreover, when I complained about his secret content removal, he/she just ignored it. [54]
Shinadamina claims that their 3 reverts are not a violation, however according to WP:CYCLE, he/she was supposed take it to talk page, after his/her edits being reverted. Morover, he/she keep misintreperting the sources. Neither US Congress, nor UK Parliament called Vardanyan a "political prisoner". A public speech by individuals is not statement by the entire organization. After being reported for misusing the sources, Shinadamina still keep doing it. Here [1], he/she added completely random link as a source.
Discussion concerning ShinadaminaStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by ShinadaminaActually action should be taken against @ Aredoros87 because based on his edit history it is obvious that he is making biased edits to Azeri and Turkish subjects and negative edits to Armenian subjects. Please check the talk page of Ruben Vardanyan for the details. My edits have all been explained and proper sourcing used. Shinadamina ( talk) 01:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC) All the edits I have made were done according to wiki policies. Let me respond to each concern:
In conclusion, all the edits I have made were done according to policies. I feel that here we have a pro-Azeri / pro-Turkish editor (@ user:Aredoros87) who is accusing me of being biased, while himself is biased. All his edits have been to display the subject in a Negative light, which does not represent a Neutral Point of View. I think it is him who should be warned and not allowed to make further edits to this page. I also would like to Ping other active editors who made recent edits to this page to see what they think @ user:Bager Drukit @ user:Vanezi Astghik @ user:Charles Essie @ user:Timb1976 @ user:Grandmaster Thanks. Shinadamina ( talk) 03:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Also, regarding WP:CIVIL all I said was that his edits seemed to be biased. I have not been disrespectful to him at all. There were no personal attacks of any kind. Shinadamina ( talk) 03:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by GrandmasterSince I was pinged here, I will comment. Shinadamina, you removed multiple times official charges against Vardanyan. Whether those charges are right or wrong, or present the subject of the article in a negative light is beside the point. We cannot remove information just because it presents a person in a negative light. It is verifiable information, and the position of prosecution must be presented accurately, with attribution. Stating that Vardanyan is a political prisoner is not in line with WP:NPOV, it is the opinion of defense and certain other individuals. Opinions cannot be presented in a wiki voice, they must be properly attributed to the people that expressed them. You removed 3 times charges against Vardanyan, despite other users objecting. It is not acceptable. You need to discuss and reach consensus at talk first. Also, making personal comments about other users' motives is not acceptable per WP:AGF and WP:Civil. Grand master 13:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning Shinadamina
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This is outside the scope of AE. General behavioral complaints not within the scope of a given contentious topic should be, if necessary, raised at WP:ANI. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:43, 29 June 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Deadman137
The user doesn't seem to be following WP:CIVIL as well and his behavior is close to WP:OWN. When I complained about his warning and his vandalism, he just ignored it.
Discussion concerning Deadman137Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Deadman137
Statement by Philipnelson99I just want to comment here that I don't think AE is the best place for this. I was reverted by Deadman137 a while back and I was confused why because they didn't explain but I asked on their page and they pointed out I made a mistake. Not sure why it's necessary to bring an editor to AE for that or why I was brought up here. Philipnelson99 ( talk) 00:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Deadman137
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Safetystuff is topic banned from the subject of alternative medicine, broadly construed. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Safetystuff
Discussion concerning SafetystuffStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SafetystuffThis matter has been raised after editing the acupuncture page and the Chinese medicine one. I don't have any conflict of interest on the topic and I have access to scientific papers being an academic as such I did my best to provide the broader view on these subjects and many more. I don't have anyone paying for my activity on Wikipedia. My interest is on science dissemination breaking down political or racist bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safetystuff ( talk • contribs) 00:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC) I have done mistakes (I am human) but I have learned thanks to the positive feedback received by good people editing Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safetystuff ( talk • contribs) 00:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC) Added Note: I hope some editors can moderate the personal insults that have been made against me. I am not replying back to these comments as I am not here to get into social media fights. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safetystuff ( talk • contribs) 02:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC) Note 2: Thanks to Walsh90210 for acknowledging the overreaction in this event. I felt like retaliation for editing the acupuncture page. I provided solid references on the acupuncture topic. Meta analysis are among the best statistical tools to assess the effect sizes of interventions (in this case acupuncture). I use them quiet often to merge data from different experiments as well as I teach stats and effect size too. As such, I know how to read the results from the papers I used as references. Regardless providing results from several published meta analysises, all the proposed changes, which were moderate by other editors, are now deleted without a strong argument. Further , in NZ, acupuncture can be used under ACC. You can very yourself just googling it. Many health insurance all around the world allow it use. Please google it. Now it seems I will be banned from editing the acupuncture page. Can someone please explain to me in plain English what I did wrong? I do not see the logic of what is happening here. Many thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safetystuff ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC) Statement by Walsh90210The diffs provided are extremely weak evidence for the need for sanctions. An AE thread in response to (approximately) one edit feels like an extreme over-reaction; I cannot blame Safetystuff for jumping to the (inaccurate) conclusion that "moneyed interests" might be behind it. However, the editing history does suggest that Safetystuff is a new user who might benefit from editing in other topic areas a bit longer. Without considering concerns related to the stigma of sanctions, a one-month page-ban from Acupuncture (which would require affirmative consensus on the talk-page for any changes) would likely be helpful. Walsh90210 ( talk) 02:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ValjeanI reverted all of Safetystuff's edits as there were far too many problems to be worth keeping. There was also a strong WP:PROFRINGE bent to them. I saw attempts to shoehorn effectiveness into the article based on studies long ago rejected or whose conclusions said that acupuncture was not better than any other method, that last part being ignored by Safetystuff. One source ( Edzard Ernst was one author), criticized acupuncture. It said that acupuncture seemed to have an effect on low-back pain, but was no better than other methods. (Those of us who are medical professionals know that LBP often has a strong psychological factor.) That critical meta-analysis was then used to make acupuncture seem to be really effective, when that was not the main message. That's an improper use of a source. Many of the sources were poor websites. That doesn't mean they were awful, but personal websites that were not official. Few of the claimed meta-analyses were actually that, but were instead peer-reviewed research or other studies that do not meet our MEDRS guideline standards. MEDRS requires much better than individual studies, even if they are of the highest quality. The fact that private insurance often pays for acupuncture, and other alternative medicine, treatments says nothing about effectiveness, but more about how insurance companies cater to customers' wishes and can make money off the deal. One reference, about such subsidy in the USA, was actually a good and official source! We are all volunteers, so drop the aspersions and conspiratorial thinking. The appeal to personal authority and PhD education status means nothing here. Many editors are highly educated, very intelligent, professors, authors, researchers, Nobel Prize laureates, etc. I know of the president of a national medical society who edits here. Even one Nobel Prize laureate is blocked from editing here, so status means nothing, except as a proven subject matter expert. The spelling and grammatical errors are fixable. Safetystuff should approach this differently by making smaller edits and discussing any that are rejected. They will have more success. The idea of a "one-month page-ban from Acupuncture" is a good idea. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC) The issue of a COI and using multiple accounts may not be completely resolved. See the overlap of edits with Carolineding ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and the article history of Ruggiero Lovreglio. There might be other issues. Safetystuff has been warned about COI editing. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC) I share Tryptofish's view about Seraphimblade's suggestion of a topic ban for alternative medicine, and that would be the usual "broadly construed". -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 23:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by TryptofishI have serious concerns about whether Safetystuff is a net positive in the topic area. I came here from seeing the notice on their talk page, just after posting this: [68], at Talk:Acupuncture. The tl;dr of what I said there, with diffs, is that this editor repeatedly misrepresented sources that actually say mixed things about acupuncture, as saying that acupuncture has significant medical benefits, and cited a source about a primary study of acupuncture as supporting a statement that the Brazilian government pays for acupuncture. Some of this seems like not understanding what the sources say, and some really seems like POV-pushing. I also found pervasive problems with inept writing, although that might perhaps be an issue of not being a native English language speaker. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning Safetystuff
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Trilletrollet is issued a logged warning to observe the requirements of civility and avoiding personal attacks especially strictly in contentious areas, and that further failure to do so is likely to result in sanction. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Trilletrollet
Trilletrollet does not view their behaviour as incivil. After
BilledMammal brought this up on Trilletrollet's talk page, Trilletrollet's response was A formal warning from an uninvolved admin would make it clear to Trilletrollet that comments like these are unacceptable, and make it easier to take action in the future if this becomes a larger problem. Since Trilletrollet acknowledges a wish to avoid the Israel-Palestine conflict area but is unable to do that on their own [72], a voluntary topic-ban may help as well.
Discussion concerning TrilletrolletStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Trilletrollet
Statement by Iskandar323There isn't a clear civility issue in the diffs provided, which both outline general statements not directed at any editor or anyone in particular other than broad institutions. The first is directed at the Telegraph, which for sure is a race-baiting rag that well merits all sorts of colourful language being thrown at it, even if throwing colourful language at it on Wikipedia is somewhat needless. The second is directed at Israel through reference to what is now a very widespread meme. Neither really amounts to any form of directed incivility: if others take offense by proxy then it is more of an eye-of-the-beholder-type situation. The "s" word is generally best avoided, as with any other expletives, but beyond this, I'm not sure what there actually is to sanction here. Iskandar323 ( talk) 04:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoylandGiven that Trilletrollet said ' Ok, I'm terribly, terribly sorry about my actions.', information that was not included in the AE report, it seems likely that their views are more complicated than not viewing their behaviour as "incivil". I would argue that thinking some people are shitheads who support genocide is not a good reason to avoid the PIA topic area. It shouldn't matter if the editor can follow the policies and guidelines. On the other hand, thinking there is a legitimate reason (in Wikipedia's terms) to say things like that to specific people, a 'reason to be "incivil"' to editors, is probably a good reason to avoid the PIA topic area. I would encourage Trilletrollet to try to stick around in the topic area if they think they can cope with the content and behavioral constraints and the occasional intrusive thoughts because of their personal views. For me, question #1 for access to the topic area should be, is this editor using deception i.e. are they a sock? Honesty is probably grossly undervalued in the topic area given that it is an essential requirement for building an encyclopedia. And every time we lose an honest person, regardless of what we think of their personal views, we increase the proportion of dishonest editors who use deception via sockpuppetry. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 05:41, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Regarding the diff #2 cited by BilledMammal as a civility issue.
Some interesting context. What truly motivated the editor who requested the move is unknown. What is known is that they were subsequently topic banned as part of the ArbCom canvassing case - " Based on information from the checkuser tool and on information received, the Committee determines that Homerethegreat most likely participated in discussions due to canvassing and made proxy edits for a banned editor." (canvassing that is evidently ongoing). So, another way of describing the statement could be that it was unnecessarily speculative. I wonder if the statement would appear different if Trilletrollet had made exactly the same comment after the ArbCom case and topic ban rather than before. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 08:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by BilledMammalFYI, they have declared awareness of ARBPIA prior to this month, such as on 21 October 2023. Iskandar323, if someone made a comment mocking the way Indians speak, we would probably interpret it as a personal attack against Indian editors, and might even ban them for racism. Why would mocking the way Israeli's speak be treated any differently? Regarding the first diff that Chess provided, this comment by Trilletrollet seems to make it clear they are referring to editors participating in the RfC, not to the Telegraph. Red-tailed hawk, although I would agree that they suggest there is an issue beyond civility, I actually rose those primarily as civility issues. By saying that it is " Hasbara" or "Zionist propaganda" to refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as "Hamas-run" or similar, despite the designation being common in reliable sources and endorsed in multiple RfCs, is to suggest that editors who have added that designation or supported it in RfCs are Hasbara or pushing "Zionist propaganda". Civility issues are also quite common for them. Examples in addition to the ones provided by Chess include:
Note that while some of these diffs are old, they are very recent in terms of the number of edits. For example, 13 April is their 100th most recent edit to talk space, and 16 November is their 54th most recent edit to project space. BilledMammal ( talk) 06:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by DtobiasLooking at this user's contributions, I see they are mostly regarding adjusting categories of prehistoric animals. This is, I presume, tedious but useful work at making the encyclopedia better in that area, so good for you. However, whenever the subject matter turns to something more contentious such as Israel/Palestine or gender, things get rougher, and this user starts arrogantly proclaiming "the right side of history" and using playground-bully style namecalling. Perhaps this user would be better off sticking to prehistoric animals. *Dan T.* ( talk) 15:51, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Aaron LiuPlease, let's all chill down here. TT (sorry bud I dunno what short name to call you) crossed a line here, yes. But this was a single incident that she didn't back down for a bit about that she has since apologized for. Otherwise, I see incredibly and invariably sporadic incidences cited here, with only two incidences (incl. the aforementioned) picking up in the past weeks, the evidence seemingly compiled overall for civility instead of a single topic notwithstanding. As argued in WP:PUNITIVE, sanctions should be preventative and not punitive. The editor has expressed willingness to disengage, so I believe at most, a big warning would be enough. Aaron Liu ( talk) 03:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Trilletrollet
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The article Duchy of Saint Sava is placed indefinitely under a "consensus required" restriction as follows: Prior to taking any of the actions of moving, merging and redirecting, or blanking and redirecting the article, consensus must be established for such an action. That consensus may be established by any normal process, including request for comment and requested move. If there is any dispute over whether such a discussion establishes consensus, formal closure of the discussion by an uninvolved editor must be sought. Edits or moves covered by this restriction made without establishing such a consensus may result in sanction, and may be reverted by any editor. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Sorabino
I am an involved administrator here so I can't formally warn or otherwise sanction this user myself, so I'm requesting help from others. This user has been furthering a content dispute at this article for many years now, on a question of how much due weight should be given to describing a medieval title and in turn a polity. This relatively minor historiographical issue has clearly been escalated into a modern-day political talking point, as a separate article gives some sort of prominence to the Serb nature of the place at the time. Multiple other editors have gone through multiple rounds of explaining that the justification for having a standalone article is insufficient, and it's not commensurate to what the consensus of reliable sources say about it. This last flared up in 2021 at Talk:Duchy of Saint Sava/Archive 2, and it flared up again this year. We should stop endlessly tolerating this kind of This isn't as severe as the case of Antidiskriminator, but it's close.
Discussion concerning SorabinoStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SorabinoThank you for the notification. For now, I will abstain from commenting, since my accuser is yet to provide particular edits or some other evidence that would demonstrate my allegedly inappropriate behavior. Sorabino ( talk) 07:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Several factual errors and misrepresentations have been posted here by my accuser. Starting from the top, he claims that I have been The claim of my accuser that in 2024 debates I repeated some sources ( Since responses of my accuser already exceed 1000 words, please would you allow me just another post here? Several users have raised questions related to citing and sources, but 500 word limitations are preventing me from answering. If allowed, that would also be my final post here (just by re-posting my attempted post). Sorabino ( talk) 08:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by ThebiguglyalienI have a procedural concern as an uninvolved observer. If this is going to be challenged on insufficient evidence, then it would help if there's a clarification on what standard of evidence is expected. Would several diffs showing editing that favors one side be enough to justify a sanction on its own, or would these diffs need to demonstrate something beyond simply favoring a POV? And in turn, what would be expected of the accused in their defense if these diffs are produced? Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 19:18, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Amanuensis BalkanicusI was notified to this dispute because I have the page in question on my watchlist. Santasa99 is being disruptive here, not Sorabino, and I'm puzzled how anyone can come to a different conclusion. Back in April, Santasa and Joy agreed between the two of them to merge the Duchy of Saint Sava article to Herzegovina#Medieval period without inviting the wider community to discuss what was (as I think is now very clear) a highly contentious move. [85] [86] [87] Perhaps, instead of unilaterally deciding to merge the article, had Santasa or Joy initiated an RfC then about its future, an editor like myself may have chimed in and provided them the reliable secondary sources for which they were asking which attest to the Duchy's existence, notability and naming as such. Instead, it has come to this. Santasa's effective destruction of the Duchy article back in April, and their attempts to get over half-a-dozen redirects deleted (!) for completely spurious reasons are themselves extremely tendentious. The peddling of outright falsehoods is also deeply unsettling. Take, for example, the claim that "These redirect titles are misnomers; it does not exist in scholarship on the subject in this form." [88] This is completely untrue, as I demonstrated in my comment at the ongoing redirect discussion by providing eight academic sources (one published as recently as last year) which do discuss the Duchy and verify the historicity of its existence. [89] In contrast to the picture painted by Joy of a user prone to tendentious editing, Sorabino reacted to Santasa and Joy's recent actions by starting a discussion on the TP. [90] Thus, Sorabino is effectively being reported for holding a discussion and in that discussion expressing views that Joy does not agree with (in a content dispute Joy is involved in). Joy, expressing views about an article's title that differ from your own is not an ARBMAC violation, and continuing to hold those views for many years does not constitute a "pattern of disruptive behavior". Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 18:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Santasa99Following could be a crucial point, these two (three) moments in 4 years long discussion:
I have following questions for User:Levivich, now that they shifted the blame on Joy and me:
You, of course, can't answer why Sorabino never answered on these kind of questions, asked countless times over the years, by Joy, Mikola, Mhare, Tezwoo, Surticna, DeCausa, and myself, but you dug through those discussions in Archives, and you should have noticed how Sorabino never produced an answer to a specific inquiry and concrete question. And let's not forget, you also can't make edits and rv's based on your opinion that "duchy is a polity ruled by duke", because sometimes it is and sometimes it is not, let alone that "Duke Levivich" means "Duchy of Levivich" exists.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 02:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LevivichI got curious after reading this and started digging, which led to me to reverse the bold redirection of the article and vote at the related RFD. Here's a summary of the history as I understand it:
I don't know enough about the Balkans to understand the POV implications of having an article about a Bosnian's Duchy named after a Serbian saint (except by process of elimination, I assume Croatia might object), but I would be shocked--shocked!--to learn that one or more editors' motivations was nationalist POV pushing. I am even more shocked that nobody at any point apparently opened up a proper WP:MERGE discussion or started an WP:AFD and voted "redirect." Joy is an admin with an account that's 22 years old; Santasa99 has an account that is 16 years old; Sorabino's account is 8 years old. The claims on the talk page, RFD page, and here, that either the "Duchy of Saint Sava" did not exist, does not appear in RSes, or that Sorabino has not posted RSes, are patently false as evidenced by the talk page archives and the sources discussed therein (by Sorabino and others, including Vego 1982 but also several from the 21st century). Joy's and Santasa's posts at this AE do not accurately convey the relevant facts. This looks like WP:GAMING and "weaponizing AE," and these editors should know how to properly resolve this content dispute vs. improperly. Joy's and Santasa's actions here were improper, and should be addressed. Sorry this is over 500 words; I don't plan to add anything unless there are questions. Levivich ( talk) 01:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by DeCausaI was pinged by Levivich - which is the only reason why I'm posting. It seems to be about why I removed some IP posts based on socking. The article and talk page has been plagued by socking, particularly by banned user Great Khaan. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Great Khaan/Archive. They have a very distinctive style and regularly posted on the page: WP:DUCK for the IP. I also noticed Levivich asking who "Surticna" is. This is Surtsicna a well known editor in multiple history topics. Although I've no interest in getting involved in this, since I'm posting here i'll make one comment. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Levivich has got completely the wrong end of the stick. I got "accidentally" involved in this in 2021. I don't know how exactly the underlying nationalist POVs play out in this. What I do know is that Sorobino (plus assorted Great Khaan socks) have pushed to maintain this article for many years with no other support. If you read the article it's apparent that there is very little in it about a "Duchy of St Sava". It was a title that may or may not (but probably was) used by a Grand Duke of Bosnia for a little over a decade or so. That's why the article is mainly about that individual. The sources that Sorabino claim (which I looked at in 2021) are just passing references (as you would expect from an adjunct title). So this has been gone over and over multiple times in the talk pages. I've lost track of the number of times I've said to Sorabino: produce a draft article from these sources that gives a substantive account of the history of a "Duch of st Sava". He's failed to do that every time. I conclude because it's not possible. FWIW, i think Sorabino's contribution has been WP:TENDENTIOUS and both Sorabino and Santasa have an inability to avoid WALLOFTEXT and won't drop the stick. If they are both PBLOCK'ed from the article and talk page it would be a net positive. (347 words) DeCausa ( talk) 20:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning Sorabino
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
Salfanto appears to have chronic issues with the WP:VERIFY, WP:DUE and WP:SYNTH policies. Aside from the above cited diffs, their edits on Human wave attack where they persistently inserted content about Ukraine using human wave attacks using Russian state media sources and synthesis of other references (such as in this diff) showcase their disregard to policy in favour to I suppose WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS about them percieving that content about Russia is not ″neutral″.
The eagerness to continue using poor sources like social media to claim the deaths of individuals even after receiving a block is not only disturbing but to me indicates that this editor should not be editing in this topic, if at all about living people in general.
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
It is indisputable that Salfanto's sourcing does not meet our standards. It should be noted however that Salfanto is a rather new editor, with the overwhelming majority of his edits having taken place in the last eight months. Salfanto's conduct strikes me as trout-worthy and a learning experience for him, and a glance at his edit history indicates that notwithstanding some mistakes he is here to build an encyclopedia.
The topic area suffers from more serious issues like persistent low-level POV pushing. I think there's a structural problem in that low-level POV pushing by established editors is far harder to identify and prosecute than comparatively minor mistakes by inexperienced editors like ocassional 1RR or RS violations. The former is ultimately more pernicious to the project. JDiala ( talk) 11:48, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for the editor to explain their edits here Talk:Bogdan Khmelnitsky Battalion#Assessed by the ISW . Another edit, where they add ambiguous This claim was assessed by Institute for the Study of War on 7 November 2023 , is [91] . ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 21:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
The user has continued to make misleading and dubiously-sourced edits within the topic area in just the past few hours, asserting
here that several foreign fighters killed in action were the commanders of units supposedly called the "1st Rifle Platoon", "2nd Rifle Platoon", and "3rd Recon Platoon", despite no such term existing in the cited articles. I can only conclude that these alleged military unit names are either completely fabricated by Salfanto or perhaps drawn from some "phantom" source the user for whatever reason chose not to reference; the association of the deceased individuals with the alleged military units remains unexplained in either scenario. In the same edit the user asserts that Ukraine's 22nd Brigade was a "belligerent" in the 2023 counteroffensive citing an article that claimed the brigade was, at the time of publication, either training in the relative safety of northern or western Ukraine, or lingering in some staging area behind the main line of contact, waiting for the Ukrainian general staff to decide when and where to deploy them
and had yet to participate in any sort of hostilities. As a frequent contributor to the topic area, based on my observations of this user's editing patterns, edits like these are the rule and not the exception.
SaintPaulOfTarsus (
talk)
00:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
editors can face consequences when engaging in POV pushing,doesn't strike me as the kind of conduct WP:CTBE was intended to regulate. ⇒ SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 02:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
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Despite still having an indefinite restriction requiring to obtain consensus to readd any content that has been reverted in AA or related conflict articles, Aredoros87 has violated it. In addition, they've been POV pushing and removing sourced content. Vanezi ( talk) 09:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
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"Why Ruben Vardanyan Can See the Future" was the title of an article published in GQ magazine in 2017. In it, Vardanyan is portrayed as a philanthropist and visionary, which is what he tried to portray himself as in the 2010s, after he made his fortune in the 1990s. During those years, he launched charity projects, invested in the Skolkovo business school, where, according to his idea, personnel for Russian business should be forged, and built a school in Dilijan, Armenia, with a unique educational methodology that should “unite people, nations and cultures in the name of peace and a sustainable future.”The source runs nearly 5000 words. I see a topic ban as a reasonable response. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 12:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
A bunch of socks/compromised accounts blocked. Further action related to anything here will need a separate report. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 11:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC) | ||||||||
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nishidani
Discussion concerning NishidaniStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NishidaniRed-tailed hawk. 12 editors were in favour of the contested word ( User:Unbandito, User:Dan Murphy, User:Iskandar323, User:Selfstudier, User:Zero0000, User:Nableezy, User:IOHANNVSVERVS, User:Makeandtoss, User:DMH223344, User:Skitash, User:Nishidani, User:Levivich). Their collective editing over decades consists of 357,426 contributions to Wikipedia. The 7 editors ( User:Oleg Yunakov, User: מתיאל, User:Galamore, User:O.maximov, User:ABHammad, Kentucky Rain2, User:Icebear244) who contest the word have a total of 8,569 edits collectively to their account, three or more registered within the last several months. My remark reflects this awareness. According to the plaintiff, the consensus was formed by the last named 7, while the majority of 12 was against that consensus- This reminds me that while the Mensheviks actually constituted the majority in many debates, the minority called themselves the majority (Bolsheviks) and labelled the real majority a minority (Mensheviks) Nishidani ( talk) 19:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
By the way BilledMammal, you claimed I suggested that editors of the article Calls for the destruction of Israel are "the hasbara bandwagon”. That’s nicely framed. In that diff I said no such thing. It only shows me arguing that repeating the meme in question (Hamas uses human shields) suggested to me that some ‘experienced editors’ are unfamiliar with core policy’ and the scholarship on that meme's use. My dry summary of the historical overview elicited the response that I ‘clearly sympathize more with Hamas' POV’ and was disruptively ‘personalizing the dispute’, being ‘uncivil’. Well, goodness me. ‘the Hamas POV‘ attributed to me did call for the destruction of Israel. So in context my interlocutor was intimating bizarrely that I share the view Israel should be destroyed, an egregious WP:AGF violation. I don't report such trivia, nor do I keep that kind of remark on some silly file detailing injurious, ‘uncivil’ insinuations thrown my way for some future AE retaliation. Nishidani ( talk) 08:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by SelfstudierI call WP:BOOMERANG for this WP:POINTy waste of editorial time over a content dispute where the current consensus is roughly 2:1 against. Editor appeared out of the blue to make This edit with edit summary "The next to restore this disputed version, against consensus and every possible wiki policy, will be reported for edit warring and disruptive editing." and about which I was moved to comment directly their talk page and was duly ignored. This is an ill motivated request about which it is quite difficult to AGF. Selfstudier ( talk) 17:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by NableezyThere is a clear consensus on the talk page for this edit, a talk page the filer is notably absent from. In what world is an editor completely unengaged on the talk page making as their very first edit to an article a revert and claiming that anybody who reverts them is being disruptive? That’s absurd, and if Icebear244 feels that the material should not be in the article they should feel welcome to make that argument on the talk page, not make a revert with an edit summary claiming the power to enforce the removal of what has consensus, a consensus they have not participated in working on or overcoming at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by nableezy ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Regarding the comment by Thebiguglyalien, this isn’t the first time an editor has mistaken their own views for those of the community, but at a certain point the repeated claims of disruptive editing against others users without evidence constitutes casting aspersions and should be dealt with appropriately. nableezy - 02:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoylandI would be interested to know the background to Icebear244's involvement and decisions. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 18:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC) re: The Kip's "I sincerely do think mass topic bans would ultimately result in improvement to ARBPIA content". In my view, this is a faith-based belief rather than an evidence-based belief. I think there is a good chance that it would not ultimately result in improvement to ARBPIA content, nor do I think there is any basis to believe that it would. The PIA 'landscape' would likely be rapidly recolonized by the wiki-editor equivalent of pioneer species. A critical factor is that Wikipedia's remedies/sanctions etc. are only effective on honest individuals. Individuals who employ deception are not impacted by topic bans, blocks etc. They can regenerate themselves and live many wiki-lives. The history of the article in question, Zionism, is a good example of the important role editor-reincarnation plays in PIA. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 05:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC) So, one checkuser block so far. Several of the editors involved in the edit warring at Zionism resemble other editors, for example, ABHammad resembles Dajudem/Tundrabuggy/Stellarkid/Snakeswithfeet - sorry ABHammad, it's just what the math suggests. Perhaps many issues could be avoided if participation in edit warring was enough to trigger a checkuser, or checkuser was used much more routinely. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 04:54, 8 July 2024 (UTC) @ BilledMammal:, whether saying A resembles B is regarded as an aspersion by anyone (other than the person I said it about) is a question that does not interest me. There is no utility for me in civility concerns, it's just an irrelevant distraction. From my perspective it is an objective statement of fact about the relationship between objects in a metric space. There is no value judgement, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they are the same person. There are at least 3 ways to address these things. ABHammad could make a true statement of fact. A checkuser could simply have a look. An SPI could be filed. A problem, of course, is that 'computer says so' is currently not a valid reason to request a checkuser. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 08:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Regarding recolonization of the PIA topic area after a potential Arbcom case clean out, you can ask the question - how long would recolonization take? This 'ARBPIA gaming?' thread at AN provides an answer. With a little bit of preparation, it could take as little as two and half days. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 10:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC) To preserve the record here, User:Kentucky Rain24, another editor employing deception, who also happened to be involved in the edit warring events at Zionism used to generate this report, has now been blocked. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 09:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC) I agree with @ Iskandar323: that a rational and pragmatic response would be to conduct checkusers, especially if an Arbcom case or a separate AE case are options. Including what turns out to be a disposable account in a case presumably wastes everyone's time given that disposable accounts have no standing, and remedies have no impact on them. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 17:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by 916crdshn
Statement by BilledMammalNishidani does appear to have a habit of personalizing comments. A few that I remembered, or found by quickly glancing through some of their more active talk pages, includes
"Don't reply. Read several good books on the facts of history", saying a user
"lack even an elementary understanding" of how to closely parse texts, describing a talk page discussion as an A few other examples are:
Statement by IOHANNVSVERVSHere is the most recent and ongoing discussion regarding this content dispute [124], and note that this was also discussed recently in this discussion here [125]. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 20:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Vegan416Although my name was dragged into this discussion here, I wish to stress that I don't want to have any part in this fight and I oppose this Arbitration Request against Nishidani, at least as it concerns my own encounters with Nishidani. I can deal with Nishidani on my own, both on the content level and the personal level, and I don't need external protection. Of course, I cannot speak for others on this regard. I also oppose Nishidani's opinion on the contested term in its current place, but the way to win this debate is to write a strong policy-based argument based on many reliable sources. Which is what I am doing now, and will be ready next week. Vegan416 ( talk) 20:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Dan MurphyThe complaining cohort is wrong on the underlying content, and wrong on whose behavior is a problem here. This Icebear account has under 2,000 edits to Wikipedia, fewer than 80 since 2020, one edit ever to the Zionism article (the edit today), and zero to that article's talk page. Thanks to today's flurry of activity, over 13% of Icebear's activity since 2020 has been trying to supervote an ahistorical "consensus" into the Zionism article and/or getting Nishidani banned. This bit of chutzpah (Icebear's edit summary) salivating over the arb enforcement wars to come, should guarantee blowback on that account: "The next to restore this disputed version, against consensus and every possible wiki policy, will be reported for edit warring and disruptive editing." Must have just stumbled across all this. Oh, the BilledMammal account is here. How surprising. Dan Murphy ( talk) 22:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by UnbanditoThe content restored by Nishidani was the latest version in an ongoing content dispute over the inclusion of a mention of colonization/colonialism in the article lead. A mention of colonialism is broadly supported by the relevant scholarship, as a number of editors have demonstrated in the relevant talk page discussions. To broadly summarize the dispute, a slight majority of editors support the inclusion of a mention of colonialism in the lead while a minority oppose any mention of it. In my reading of the edit history of the dispute, the editors in favor of an inclusion of colonialism have advanced several versions of the proposed content, compromising when their edits were reverted and supporting their edits on the talk page, while editors opposed to the new changes have reverted all attempts to add language and sourcing which mentions colonialism, with little support for these actions on the talk page. This dispute began when Iskandar's edit was reverted on 6 June. As the dispute continued, several revised additions were also reverted. Editors opposed to the inclusion of a mention of colonialism have made their own changes to the lead, so the claim that one "side" is adding disputed material and the other is not doesn't stand up to scrutiny. When the most recent version of the proposed changes was reverted, Nishidani added several high quality sources. Those edits were reverted regardless of the substantive changes in sourcing, and Icebear issued a blanket threat to report anyone who restored the contested content. At the time of Nishidani's , I was working on this compromise, but I was edit conflicted and decided to return to the article later. If I had finished my edit more quickly, it seems that I would have been dragged in front of this noticeboard even though my edit is substantially different since, according to Icebear's edit summary, anyone restoring the disputed version would be reported. The simple truth of this content dispute is that a number of editors, who are in the minority, are being very inflexible about any mention of colonialism in the lead despite strong support in the literature and among editors for these changes. In my opinion the lead is improving, however chaotically and contentiously. There's no need for administrative involvement here. Nishidani has been recognized many times over the years for their work defending scholarship and scholarly sources on Wikipedia. They are doing more of that good work on the Zionism page. Unbandito ( talk) 23:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ParabolistOne of the most suspect lead ups to an AE filing I've ever seen. And BilledMammal's "Here's eight specific diffs with commentary stretching all the way back to November I just, you know, causally glanced at in the hour and a half since this filing was posted" is ridiculous. How many times can one editor be warned about weaponizing AE against their opponents before someone actually recognizes the pattern? This is becoming farcical. Parabolist ( talk) 23:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ThebiguglyalienMy thoughts in no order:
To the administrators, I ask two questions that I'd like to have answered as part of the decision here. First, what are the red lines? If it's disruption, we're well past that. If it's the community getting sick of it, we're well past that. I don't know what further lines can be crossed. Second, how often is a fear of blowback from a banned user and their wikifriends a factor in these decisions? Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 01:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by The KipJust jumping in here to effectively second everything TBUA said above. The AE filer themselves is suspect in their editing, and there’s a good argument for a BOOMERANG punishment here; that said, that doesn’t absolve Nishidani of valid incivility complaints and other issues regarding ARBPIA that’ve gone on for years. Sanctions for both would be ideal. This whole case and its votes are, in my opinion, emblematic of the shortcomings of the ARBPIA area and its editors, who consistently defend/attack others at this board and other places on Wikipedia almost solely based on ideological alignment. I sincerely do think mass topic bans would ultimately result in improvement to ARBPIA content; this attitude towards experienced editors of “well, they contribute a lot despite their [ WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct/POV-pushing/weaponizing of AE/etc] can’t be the long-term solution. Anyhow, that’s the end of my soapbox. The Kip ( contribs) 04:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich (Nishidani)Nishidani mentioned 7 editors who opposed describing Zionism as colonialism. I recognize those names (and others). My previously complaints about: tag-team edit warring (recent example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), both-siding WP:ONUS, and bludgeoning A group of editors have been arguing, and edit warring, a bunch of Nakba denial myths, such as:
User:מתיאל was a disclosed paid editing account in 2021 1 2 3; the disclosure was removed from their userpage in April 2024. They made about 50 (non-deleted) edits between Sep 2021 and Mar 2024 ( xtools). Top edited pages for User:ABHammad [127] and User:O.maximov [128], aside from Israel/Palestine, are articles about businesses. User:Galamore: Jan 2024 UPE ANI ( blocked, unblocked); May AE "Galamore cautioned against continuing long term edit wars, especially when those edit wars have been the target of sockpuppetry and off-wiki canvassing."; May ANI for gaming 500. Seems pretty obvious to me that somebody bought/rented/expanded a UPEfarm and is using it to push far-right-Israeli propaganda, and I think deliberately provoke uncivil responses from the regular editors of the topic area is part of the strategy. Not a new trick. Colleagues: try not to take the bait, and I'll do the same. Admins: please clear this new farm from the topic area, thank you. If nobody wants to volunteer to do it -- I don't blame them -- let's ask the WMF to spend some money investigating and cleaning up this most-recent infiltration. Levivich ( talk) 05:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
We now have a 6th revert in the "recent example" string above, from Oleg Yunakov, along with saying at the talk page that the "colonization" is a " statements that are only mentioned by select scientists" and " opinion of colonization is clearly a minority" (plus the mandatory ad hominem swipe). That is flat misrepresentation of the sources, and Oleg knows this because he participated in the discussion about it, where he brought one source--which, IIRC, is the one and only WP:RS that disputes "colonization" among over a dozen that were examined in that discussion. The current ongoing edit war by this group of editors isn't the first edit war about "colonization" on the Zionism article, we had one a month ago ( 1, 2, 3, 4). So we have the edit war, we have the talk page discussion where we bring over a dozen sources and examine them, and still they just go back to edit warring, bringing in new accounts, and still, people claim against all evidence that a mainstream view is a minority view. I did my part. I researched, I engaged in constructive talk page discussion, I posted over a dozen sources, I read the sources other people posted--and a number of other editors did the same. Can admins now do their part, please: TBAN the people who are misrepresenting sources by claiming that "Zionism was colonization" is not a mainstream view, who only brought one source (or zero sources, or didn't even participate in the talk page discussion at all, as is the case for some of these editors), and who continue to edit war. We don't really need to prove a UPEfarm for this, just TBAN them for the diffs I'm posting on this page. I think AE is the right place for this. Thanks. Levivich ( talk) 16:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
It's a new day and we have more edit warring about Zionism and colonialism (today, at settler colonialism): 1, 2, 3. Nobody's edited that talk page since June 17. This is like every day in this topic area right now: it's a full-court press to make sure Wikipedia doesn't say Zionism is any kind of colonialism. Levivich ( talk) 15:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by GalamoreI was tagged here by Levivich (I couldn't really understand his message, a concentration of accusations and confusion between users). Some time ago, I was asked not to participate in edit wars, and since then, I have been trying to edit relatively neutral topics. Levivich's accusation is out of place. Shabbat shalom and have a great weekend! Galamore ( talk) 06:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Zero0000This report is entirely about an editor trying to win an edit war by means of noticeboard report. An editor whose total contribution is one massive revert and not a single talk page comment. It should be dismissed out of hand. Zero talk 15:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC) To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: I am alarmed by your proposal that Nishidani is a net negative. In my 22 years of editing in the I/P area, it has been a rare event to encounter someone whose scholarship and ability to cut through to the heart of an issue stands out so strongly. He would be a good candidate for the most valuable I/P editor at the moment. To be sure, Nishidani doesn't have much patience with editors who arrive full of opinions and empty of facts, and there are times I wish he would state the obvious less bluntly. But reports like this are not really about Nishidani's behavior; they are an opportunistic response to being unable to match Nishidani in his depth of knowledge and command of the best sources. Nobody would bother otherwise. Zero talk 09:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by JM2023Going off of what BilledMammal said, from the sole interaction with Nishidani that I can recall, this was my experience. This was in January. After I commented on another user's talk page, Nishidani appeared and removed my comment, saying
Feel free to read through my own comments there. This is, as far as I can recall, my first and only interaction with said editor. If this is their conduct with others as well, then... not a positive editing environment. I agree with TBUA that specific users always showing up to defend each other, in a way very closely correlating with whether or not they agree on one specific issue, should be a cause for concern. I left the topic area completely, and mostly retired from editing entirely, over what I've seen in the I-P space. JM ( talk) 17:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by LokiFWIW, I think this case should be closed with no action. Not because I necessarily think Nishidani is a paragon of civility, but because I think if you're going to impose a restriction you should wait until the direct report actually has any merit at all. Otherwise you're incentivizing people to report opposing editors until action is taken against them. Loki ( talk) 23:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by berchanhimezI disagree that whatever happens to OP should impact what happens to the person OP has reported. If an issue exists, it exists regardless of whether another user wants to expose themselves to the toxic environment that occurs from reporting that issue. While I make no comment on the issues raised about the person who posted this thread, I second the concerns OP and others have had about the reported user's repeated incivility in the topic area. It is a perfectly reasonable outcome that both the reported user and the one doing the reporting get sanctioned. But it is not appropriate to absolve the reported user of sanctions for their inappropriate behavior just because the OP also has not behaved appropriately. That is completely against the spirit of WP:BOOMERANG, which is to clarify that the OP will also be examined - not "in lieu" of the person they report, but in addition to. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez ( User/ say hi!) 02:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Iskandar323@
ScottishFinnishRadish: That Nishidani's:
Statement by Doug Weller)I know that I should not just say "per"... but I'm tired. I'm tired physically but much more I'm tired of these attacks on Nishidani. User:Zero0000 is absolutely right when he wrote that "In my 22 years of editing in the I/P area, it has been a rare event to encounter someone whose scholarship and ability to cut through to the heart of an issue stands out so strongly. He would be a good candidate for the most valuable I/P editor at the moment. To be sure, Nishidani doesn't have much patience with editors who arrive full of opinions and empty of facts, and there are times I wish he would state the obvious less bluntly. But reports like this are not really about Nishidani's behavior; they are an opportunistic response to being unable to match Nishidani in his depth of knowledge and command of the best sources." Nishidani is probably the most erudite editor I have ever come across here (there may be better ones, I just haven't met them). As Zero said, this should be dismissed out of hand.I also agree with User:Dan Murphy, both his first post and the tounge in cheek next one. And with User:Iskandar323. The filer should be sanctioned but as they don't edit in this topic a TB would be pointless. I also can't help wondering if someone contacted them, this all seems so odd. Doug Weller talk 13:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by TarnishedPathThis is an absurd report, filed because the defendant made two edits to restore to the consensus wording and one of them contained some minor incivility which was not directed at any particular editor. This smacks heavily of opportunistically trying to take out an ideological opponent. Frankly I'd expect more than a topic ban for the filler. What's to stop them engaging in this sort of behaviour in other CTOP areas in the future? I would hope for sanctions that ensure that can't happen. TarnishedPath talk 02:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LilianaUwUConsidering the OP of this thread was blocked as a compromised account, and that Nishidani has been repeatedly targeted for their edits in ARBPIA (remember Mschwartz1?), I think this should be procedurally closed. LilianaUwU ( talk / contributions) 01:56, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by TryptofishI don't think I'm just some random newish account, and my one extended interaction with Nishidani was at Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism last year ( [133], for example). Based on that, I have no doubt of his erudition, but I was also painfully aware of his, well, snottiness towards anyone with whom he disagrees. Whether that's a matter for AE is above my pay grade. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 00:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by (user)Result concerning Nishidani
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n/a
Notified at previous IP, including 1RR notification on December 31, 2023
Editor is a barrier to article improvement, reverting basic factual corrections demanding supposed consensus be obtained to replace inaccurate unsourced material with accurate sourced material. Given their comment of ""Your interest seems to be in whitewashing and not in documenting fact" on December 31, 2023, it is impossible to understand their repeated deletion of properly sourced content without adequate explanation.
Important to note the RFC the IP started on the talk page is solely related to the lead of the article, and their reversal of straightforward factual, properly sourced corrections to unsourced material are a clear attempt to influence the result of the RFC, since the corrections to the main body/infobox will directly influence the wording of the lead. Kathleen's bike ( talk) 18:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
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I have attempted to engage in constructive discussion but the above user has thus far been displaying very frustrating biases and expressing strange, bordering nonsensical, positions. I have sought to seek consensus for changes. 20:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC) 78.147.140.112 ( talk)
Additional: I am the IP in question; my IP address changes whenever my (somewhat unreliable) router resets, as such I could not remain on a single IP constantly. BRMSF ( talk) 22:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Procedural comment: An ANI discussion on this topic was opened be the accused party, regarding the filer at wp:ani#User:Kathleen's Bike. Also, I requested the page protection level suggested below.
I protected the page subsequent to the ANI report but before seeing this because they were both edit warring. If any admin thinks it's resolved, feel free to unprotect. Star Mississippi 00:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Appeal declined. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Ustadeditor2011I would like to improve the lead section of the article with appropriate grammar and syntax. I would like to update the article with new references. Ustadeditor2011 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log Ustadeditor2011 ( talk) 10:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Daniel CaseStatement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ustadeditor2011Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by Ustadeditor2011
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Indeffed as a normal admin action by me because I got to it first. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 21:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Waterlover3
On 26 May 2024, Waterlover3 was blocked for one week due to edit warring. Specifically, they were editing the CZ Scorpion Evo 3 page, adding information about how Hamas used the weapon.
Discussion concerning Waterlover3Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Waterlover3Statement by FortunateSonsUnfortunately, the defendant is either unwilling or unable to understand the relevant editing restrictions. I’m not sure if it’s CIR (or perhaps age?), but that doesn’t really matter. Just about everything, including their talk page (which was modified after they were made aware of ARBPIA, at which point they should have noticed an issue) implies that they are NOTHERE, or don’t attempt to separate their significant personal biases from the editing. FortunateSons ( talk) 10:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierThis is a non EC editor, any contribution that is not an edit request should be reverted with reason WP:ARBECR and editor reminded of the restrictions. Persistent breaches by such editors should usually result in a block, just ping an admin, an AE case shouldn't be necessary. Selfstudier ( talk) 11:13, 8 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by Levivich (Waterlover)"ok i am pretty sure hamas doesnt involve itself with US copyright laws KEK since yknow its designated as a terrorist organization" "Hands off Waterlover, death to IOF swine!" (IOF = "Israeli Occupation Forces") "o7 long live the revolution long live the resistance" (O7 = October 7) That's um not good. We shouldn't be allowing that kind of rhetoric, just like we shouldn't be saying things like "nuke them all". I know it's a minefield with people expressing support/opposition for parties in a war, but I think we can draw lines here, at openly calling for death to people, or celebrating attacks on civilians. Especially not in response to template warnings about copyvio or edit warring. User talk:Waterlover3#May 2024 is old but still. They were blocked for edit warring after that. Then in June, calling an editor a disgusting pig, which someone warned them about on their UTP. This is all rather concerning. (Also maybe remind AFC about ECR.) Levivich ( talk) 14:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Dan MurphyI would urge any admin who doesn't know that Bashir Gemayel was an Israeli ally/asset against the Palestinian Liberation Organization in the Lebanese Civil War to abstain from making decisions about who is fit to edit articles about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. What a website. (Waterlover? Should be 86ed.) Dan Murphy ( talk) 16:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Waterlover3
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Closed with no action. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Amayorov
This user has been reported at the Administrator's Noticeboard regarding potential EC gaming here, July 7 2024. There has not been much response to that and since the reported user has been and continues to make so many changes and is currently engaged in so many talk page discussions, I am reporting it here in hopes of more swift action being taken. I commented at that thread about my concerns, being: "Account created in 2016 but first edit made a few days ago and quickly put in 500 edits, immediately jumps into Israeli-Palestinian conflict topic area, seemingly POV-pushing. Seems to be an experienced user as well." It seems quite clear this is an experienced user who has engaged in EC gaming and is therefore most likely a sock account that is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia but to push a point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk • contribs) 20:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=User_talk:Amayorov#Notice_of_Arbitration_Enforcement_noticeboard_discussion Discussion concerning AmayorovStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AmayorovIf the complaint is about me being a sock account, then that is false. I could reveal and confirm my true identity if deemed necessary. My account was first created when a university practical asked me to create a web page about a chemical compound in 2016. A couple weeks ago, I started to be interested in Wikipedia editing, and have edited over 150 pages, creating a few of them practically from scratch. I’m interested in the IP history, about which I’ve read a lot. Since gaining extended privileges, I’ve made improvements to those articles. Those edits have arguably been better-sources than any of my other work, due to my having more knowledge to my having more knowledge on the topic. I do not deny that I wanted to contribute to these topics from the start. I did not push an agenda but instead engaged in respectful and good-faith discussion on Talk pages. In a few cases, I conceded a point. The only complaint I got is that I use Benny Morris as my reference historian of choice. Whenever possible, I try to corroborate his claims using work by other scholars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amayorov ( talk • contribs) 20:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Amayorov
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