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Initiated by Ivanvector at 16:00, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
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I'm requesting clarification of NadirAli's unblock conditions, which included a topic ban which was later suspended and then presumably rescinded as part of the suspension motion. The first bullet of the unblock conditions describes the topic ban and also the remedies for enforcement of the topic ban. The second bullet specifies that NadirAli may not edit from an alternate account nor "anonymously" (which I have taken to mean editing while logged out) but does not separately specify enforcement remedies. I have two questions:
Thanks for your time. Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 16:00, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I appreciate that Ivanvector has brought this to Arbcom for clarification. As per the standards of blocking policy for sockpuppetry, the sockmaster with his socks is indeffed for repeated offences. An indefinite block is completely justified in this case since this is not the first time that NadirAli is guilty of sock puppetry, but many many times. [1]
Furthermore, we must not forget that NadirAli evaded his siteban, topic ban, one-account restriction and image upload ban throughout these 10 years. -- RaviC ( talk) 16:09, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by Magioladitis at 00:26, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
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I would like a clarification in a series of things that concern my restrictions.
Thanks, Magioladitis ( talk) 00:28, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by RebeccaSaid at 12:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
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Please can you provide clarification around the scope of the Topic Ban issued to Philip Cross, 26 July 2018?
On 2 August Philip Cross edited the article of Colin Jordan and on 3 August he edited the article of /Andrew Faulds.
Both of these articles would appear to fall within the reach of “post-1978 British politics, broadly construed”.
On 5 August User Kal Holmann raised the potential breach of the TB here: Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Philip_Cross
Notwithstanding the issue of self-reverting, which Cross did only after the potential breach was raised, there’s an interesting point being made around the wording of the actual Topic Ban.
Looking at the standard policy I read “a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic, as encapsulated in the phrase "broadly construed". “ Topic ban
However, it would appear that the Topic Ban of Philip Cross is being interpreted differently -
"I would close this as not actionable. The wording of the remedy is in relevant part: "Philip Cross is indefinitely topic banned from edits relating to post-1978 British politics". This is more restrictive than a usual topic ban per WP:TBAN: while a usual topic ban covers both pages related to the topic and edits related to the topic, the unusual wording of the remedy ("banned from edits relating to ...") indicates that this ban is intended to cover only edits related to the topic. The normal wording would have been something like "banned from anything related to ...". In this case, the edits as such were not related to politics, and the remedy was therefore not violated." Sandstein 06:54, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Can you kindly confirm then, which of these interpretations is accurate? Thank you. -- RebeccaSaid ( talk) 12:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Earlier today, I edited the article on John Strachey who died in 1963. The article also links to Harold Wilson who left the House of Commons in 1983 (died 1995), Manny Shinwell (1884–1986) a Labour peer and Peter Doig who left the Commons in 1979. These edits are thus marginally in the post-1978 era, and it is possible I could be successfully challenged. A little earlier today, I worked on an article about Jon Kimche, who knew George Orwell in the 1930s, but decided to revert because the article contains a mention of Michael Foot during the second world war when he was a journalist. Possibly I should do the same at Anthony Crosland (died 1977) because Roy Jenkins is mentioned and the article cites a book which includes the term 'New Labour' in the title. I edited David Mamet yesterday after searching for references to 'antisemitism'. It cites an interview with Mamet conducted in New York in 2011 which mentions his general claims about A/S in the UK and also includes a mention of Harold Pinter who was certainly a writer on politics post-1978. Should I revert? There are other recent edits of mine, such as to Dennis Potter, which should be counted as well. The article includes Potter's comments about the Australian-American Rupert Murdoch, who has had an influence on British politics since 1978 as elsewhere, and surely also falls under the "broadly construed" element. Philip Cross ( talk) 14:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Today's exchange between inactive ArbCom member User:BU Rob13 and uninvolved admin User:Sandstein emphasizes the need for formal clarification of this point by the Arbitration Committee.
"The remedy as written," Sandstein comments, "appears to contradict itself. While it links to WP:TBAN, which defines a standard topic ban that includes both topic-related edits and other edits to topic-related pages, the clause 'edits relating to' has, as I read it, a limiting effect such that only topic-related edits are prohibited, not other edits to topic-related pages. To avoid such uncertainty, I recommend that future remedies are worded to only make reference to WP:TBAN without additional clauses, e.g., '... is topic-banned ( WP:TBAN) from British politics'. Based on the current wording, I myself would take no action here, although of course other admins are free to interpret the remedy differently and take action."
As a non-administrator, I naturally defer to admins in their knowledge of Wikipedia procedures. However, Sandstein's reading seems contrary to the spirit of ArbCom's sanction against Philip Cross. Please resolve this. KalHolmann ( talk) 14:40, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
As an admin working at AE, I appreciate the proposed motion because it clarifies the remedy. When evaluating an AE request, I generally try to apply the plain meaning of the text of the applicable remedy. If the text is unclear or appears contradictory, as in this case, I tend to not take action, so as to err on the side of caution. Other admins, of course, may want to proceed differently. Sandstein 07:26, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
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The "Philip Cross topic banned" remedy in the BLP issues on British politics articles case is modified to read as follows:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Atsme at 18:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
I am here to appeal my t-ban after taking some time off for introspection, and to analyze the many diffs MrX presented in his case against me. I published the results at User talk:Atsme/RVW. This has been a difficult case for me because I once held MrX in high regard; however, his accusation that I have an ideological blindspot is, in and of itself, evidence that he believes his own ideology is superior, and I consider that to be detrimental to the project. His case against me was devastating as my initial reaction shows but I have since learned from it.
I’m sure we can all agree that sanctions are not intended to prevent free and candid discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think civil disagreement while seeking consensus would be grounds for a sanction, or that suggesting consistency with MOS or using humor here and there to defuse tense situations would be grounds for sanctions. Articles with DS/1RR-consensus required restrictions naturally increase discussion, and one can expect lively debates because reverted editors tend to experience higher levels of frustration.
Administrators are expected to exercise good judgment, and respond flexibly and proportionately when they intervene. They should carefully analyze behavior without preference or bias, and determine if a remedy has been violated, or if the case and associated preliminary warnings were vexatious. Accused editors are customarily given an opportunity to defend themselves, but above all, they should not have to deal with intimidation, threats, or enforcement by an involved administrator. Unfortunately, none of the aforementioned received proper consideration in my case as the following diffs will demonstrate.
MrX presented a compilation of cherrypicked diffs taken out of context, grouped them with prepended aspersions, exaggerations and misrepresentations in his ARCA case against me. It is patterned behavior used to rid himself of opposition. (Note: I have many more diffs that establish the pattern if needed)
MrX was aware there was neither a smoking gun nor clear evidence of disruption worthy of a t-ban in my case.
Disruptive behavior by MrX for comparison purposes
The following will demonstrate that there was a lack of urgency for Bishonen to impose a t-ban which she inadvertently admits in her statement below. The ARCA case was only 12 hrs old, and her action against me was retaliatory and had a chilling effect, as it followed within 9 min after I posted the 1st phase of evidence in my defense which including diffs of incivility against her fellow admin.
Further evidence of Bishonen’s involvement
Aug 2017, Bishonen appeared at AN3 for this one case while she was on a semi-break, and of course, it was the case I filed
Floquenbeam, allow me to clarify. I intended for the diffs MrX used against me - which I published with an analysis at User talk:Atsme/RVW - to be used as a comparison to the diffs I included here. I hope the arbs will take the time necessary to compare the two behaviors before they decline this case, and at least help me understand why they believe my behavior was worthy of a t-ban as compared to his. Am I expected to adjust my behavior to be more like that of those not being t-banned? Bishonen also pointed out in her statement during my case that my t-ban would not stop the disruptive behavior at those articles - isn't that the purpose of a t-ban - to stop/prevent disruption to the project? If her action did not prevent disruption, why was I singled out by an involved admin? I think my evidence speaks volumes. It does not surprise me to see admins and editors I have a history with to show up here to defend those in their camp. All I asked is for the arbs to review the evidence, compare the two behaviors, confirm the involvement and explain to me why I was singled out. Is that too much to ask? Atsme 📞 📧 16:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Drmies, you have already demonstrated your inability to judge me without bias when you misinterpreted my adherence to NPOV in this diff and then said the hurtful things you said to me here when I asked for help. I'm sorry, but it's just not appropriate for you to sit in judgment of me when those 2 diffs alone demonstrate how you really feel. Atsme 📞 📧 17:13, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
As the banning admin, I think it's appropriate to leave the consideration of whether or not Atsme's topic ban should be lifted to the arbitrators. My rationale for placing the ban on 29 June 2018 can be seen here and here. At this time I only want to say I don't understand Atsme's claim that I'm an involved admin wrt her, and also don't understand her case (?) against MrX. She has been insisting I'm involved since at least 2015, but I've never understood it, and the diffs she posts above seem irrelevant, some of them wildly so. Bishonen appears from her semi-break? Bishonen said "Fuck" when Andy the Grump retired? Bishzilla puts little Giano in her pocket for safe-keeping [sic]? Seriously, what? See WP:INVOLVED. I can't find any diff in that list that suggests I'm involved wrt Atsme, let alone that my admin actions are "retaliatory" (?). I don't understand the diffs purporting to show bad behaviour by MrX, either. How do they make his filing of an ARCA case against Atsme inappropriate? OMG, I see he, too, has been guilty of "profanity" — though less gravely than me — he has said "bullshit". [8] What does any of it have to do with the price of tea in China? Bishonen | talk 19:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC).
The stuff about Bishonen seems silly enough that I won't comment on it. Sorry, Bish. (well, ok, one comment: pocketing Giano?! what the?!) But I do want to point out - not as a rhetorical gambit, not as a gotcha, but as a real, honest observation/complaint - that all of the diffs regarding Mr.X, an editor with whom she frequently crossed swords in the AP topic area, have nothing to do with an "appeal". This portion of her appeal here should be considered a violation of her topic ban, clearly attacking an AP opponent when she's topic banned from AP, superficially masquerading as an appeal. We need to stop people from doing this. An appeal should be an appeal, not a free, sanction-immune opportunity to attack an opponent in an area she is otherwise topic banned from. I realize that a sanction will be characterized by her as "punishment for appealing", but having to deal with that kind of spin should not prevent someone from clearly and strongly discouraging this kind of games-playing. I suggest allowing her to remove this request, and give her time to create one that has a greater than 2% chance of succeeding, and that does not attempt to attack MrX. If she says she wants to remove this, I won't mind if my comment here goes down the memory hole too; I would hope MrX and Bish wouldn't mind either, tho I can't speak for them. Of course, I have a feeling the Arb bureaucracy won't like a simple removal, or others will start to comment soon and make the suggestion moot, but it's worth suggesting. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 21:21, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
It's been a long time since Bishonen called an editor "you little shit" but I'd like to address whether Bishonen issues bans inconsiderately, with an example from during a dispute between two editors about calling a person a climate change denier (a subtopic that Bishonen had once edited). 11:16 Bishonen sent a DS/alert to Editor#2. 15:48 Editor#2 reverted to restore some tags. 15:50 Editor#2 on the talk page asked the person who inserted the tags whether it's okay. 16:35 Bishonen banned Editor#2 "for persistent disruptive editing on Myron Ebell and its talkpage" with "... no input on talk" (which was incorrect). So for this one post-alert edit Editor#2 got indefinitely banned not just from Myron Ebell but from climate change broadly construed. I hope administrators see this as confirmation that Bishonen bypasses usual procedures too quickly. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 22:49, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
I think Peter left a bit of history out of his banned-for-one-edit narrative above: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Myron_Ebell&offset=20161110160000&action=history&tagfilter= -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
If Peter Gulutzan believes that Bishonen has a history of misapplying their authority as an admin, then Peter Gulutzan should file a desysop request at Requests for Arbitration. If they don't have the evidence to support such a request, then their coming here with (half-a-)story intended to besmirch Bishonen's reputation should be removed from this amendment request as totally irrelevant. As Floquenbeam points out above, this is not, and should not be, a free-fire zone for past disputes which have no connection to the current matter. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 02:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Hopefully the clerks will clear up some of this off-topic nonsense regarding Peter Gulutzan.
Whatever the nature of Atsme's appeal, it should be declined. The topic-ban was imposed exactly as the committee intended discretionary sanctions to be imposed. Attempting to continue a disagreement with MrX demonstrates the motivation for those sanctions, an appeal based on continuing that argument should never be successful in this forum. I'd recommend no action against anyone for any TBAN violations in this thread so far. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 02:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
An appeal based solely upon attacking both the original filer and the implementing admin rarely succeeds for good reason. I don’t see any acceptance of behavioral problems for any of the numerous diffs. We need some reason to believe a change in behavior will occur. (Involved as I’m certain I was a part of some of the discussions related to the diffs.) O3000 ( talk) 02:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Decline per Floq's commentary.A host of irrelevant diffs about Bish's activities and some other points, that leads to an impression of her utilising this board to sanction MrX. ∯WBG converse 05:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I had a look at some of the Bishonen diffs, which are meant to prove that Bishonen is partial--it led me to Wikipedia:Advocacy ducks, where Atsme claims a somewhat humorous caption, which reasonable follows another Pythonesque caption, is "gibberish" (and "vandalism" in a subsequent IP edit, followed by a request for oversight--oversight of what, Bishonen rightly asks, and somehow this comment on Bishonen's part is "snarky" and grounds for the INVOLVED accusation. No. The committee should decline this appeal, which is little more than NOTTHEM. Drmies ( talk) 15:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion the topic ban appeal should be declined. Atsme has been an extremely disruptive force on Wikipedia in this topic area for nearly two years (by far the most disruptive regular Wikipedian I have seen in my 11 years here), and in my opinion the topic ban itself was very late in coming. and not broad enough. (In my opinion the topic ban should have been American politics, broadly construed.) Trying to implicate Bishonen is ridiculous; Bishonen has a very long history of clarity, integrity, and neutrality even when she is in disagreement; in fact, she has defended Atsme against others when the situation merited it.
Softlavender (
talk) 18:42, 10 August 2018 (UTC); edited
Softlavender (
talk) 19:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
All I can say is that the following reasoning is bizarre: "Editors/admins X, Y, and Z have a history of opposing my behavior, so they are clearly biased against me and their opinions about me should be disqualified." (I think my paraphrasing is accurate enough.) In other words, the only people qualified to speak on this matter should be those who are unsure of their positions about it, or haven't shown any interest until now. That kind of argument alone is enough to push me off any fence I may have been on. ― Mandruss ☎ 18:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Davidbena at 04:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
It is my view that when incidents are brought before the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard for a decision, due to the overwhelming number of incidents, that some minor incidents may occasionally be brought, haphazardly, before the board without prior consideration or thorough inspection of the edit history of the person in question against whom the complaint is made. By the nature of the Administrators' noticeboard's set-up and arrangement (based on current standing-laws governing its conduct), arriving at a fair and equitable (impartial) decision/verdict by means of "community consensus" may, in fact, be sometimes compromised if, let's say, those editors attracted to the site and who comment on the particular case are either inexperienced, or display toxic tendencies towards their fellow-editors because of their preconceived notions about that editor. Wherefore, the best way to handle incidents brought before the Administrators' noticeboard is to have an equal number of advocates and prosecutors (arguing for and against the editor), while the administrators rendering the verdict will be made-up of an unequal number of three or five, and their decision - based on the arguments heard from the advocates and the prosecutors - made by a majority vote of 2 to 1 (in the case of there being only 3 administrators). In this manner, we can avoid miscalculation of an editor's behavior or intent. Of course, this will require setting up a team of editors who will agree to work in the capacity of advocates (working to highlight the editor's good qualities), and another team who works solely as prosecutors (looking for the editor's bad qualities). Perhaps Wikipedia can compile a list of willing editors who will take in these roles, and when they are summoned to respond to a specific incident, will be given 48-hours to respond.
I greatly dislike this trend of appeals at ARCA claiming that site policies as a whole are wrong, rather than claiming that a specific sanction was too harsh. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 04:18, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I have to ask what jurisdiction that Davidbena feels that ArbCom -- an entity whose purpose is essentially to adjudicate behavioral problems -- has over the structure and practices of a community page such as AN/I. It seems to me that the very most the Committee can do would be to "strongly suggest that the community discuss changes in AN/I", or something to that effect, and that it cannot, on its own authority, force the community to change AN/I, or even to force the discussion they might think is appropriate. If I am correct in my apprehension of the limits of ArbCom's remit, then it would seem best for the Committee to reject this request for "clarification and amendment" (which is not actually a request for clarification or amendment, but, at best, should be the subject of an RfC, and, at worst, is simply an attempt to avoid a community sanction) entirely, as outside of its authority to consider. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 04:34, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Huldra at 21:55, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
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Are edits in user space also bound by WP:ARBPIA3? RebeccaSaid is/was working on an article in her user space, User:RebeccaSaid/Eva Bartlett, Shrike blanked the page, with the edit line " WP:ARBPIA3 new users aren't allowed to edit articles relating to the conflict". I undid it, which one of us is correct? Please clarify, Huldra ( talk) 21:57, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Alex Shih: The usual practice in the area revert the violation in sight and discuss it with users after the violation is removed and that what I did but I understand where you comments coming from and in similar cases I will take more lax approach next time. -- Shrike ( talk) 05:32, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Not that this is actually relevant here - but I'll clarify what I was actually doing, why I was doing it and how this situation arose.
The article of Eva Bartlett was deleted as it was created by FromNewsToEncyclopedia, block evading sock of M.A.Martin. This is what the article looked like at the point of deletion. Eva Bartlett. An attack page. The article was retrieved and then proposed for deletion again. AFD.
I started a practice/dummy article in a user space, in order to pull together some actual biographical information which is completely lacking from what is supposed to be a BLP. The intention being to post it at the AFD or within the Talk Page of the article for consideration. The article did not at that stage fall within the "Arab/Israeli conflict" scope. This is because the article subject is not notable for her work around Gaza - she has gained any notability she has for her more recent reporting on Syria, which is reflected in the article.
This morning I posted a brief statement here: ARE Cross & directly under the statement of Shrike, who, incidentally, I've never interacted with before. Within 30-40 minutes of me posting my statement, Shrike blanked my user space, concluded that the article of Eva Bartlett fell within the scope of the "Arab/Israeli conflict" (based on what I'd written, not what was actually within the article itself) and followed that with a veiled aspersion about me having had previous user accounts. Here's the sum of their Contributions to Wikipedia for the day.
To be frank, I am more concerned about the motivation behind this editors sudden interest in my edits, my account & the article of Eva Bartlett, than I am about whether I am "allowed" to edit something, or not. -- RebeccaSaid ( talk) 02:15, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Shrike is correct, as WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 clearly forbids editing to any page. There is a single carveout - talkspace for constructive suggestions. Carevout 2 is not an exception, but merely admin discretion on enforcement in article creation ... As to whether the rule should be modified - that's a different matter, but there ain't much point in creating a draft if you can not mainspace it, requiring a proxy editor. Icewhiz ( talk) 22:56, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sir Joseph at 19:55, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
This clause seems to continuously cause issues or concerns and it seems to me that rewriting this to specifically highlight in this manner makes it clearer as to who can and can't edit in this area.
Worm That Turned, see my comments at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#פֿינצטערניש, and those of my non-alter-ego, Doug Weller. I genuinely didn't understand the wording because the Oxford comma is confusing (actually, in my book, just darn wrong) and the wording is poorly drafted. Please bear in mind that we will often need to point this to newbies and people with passion on the topic. Both of those are reasons for crystal clarity. There's more discussion about this on my user talk. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 22:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I can see this suggestion is not going anywhere. However, there is a different sentence in the ARBPIA rulings that does cause confusion and it would be good to have clarification of its meaning. I refer to the sentence "If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit."
that appears in the General 1RR restriction. Consider this sequence: (1) A inserts some text, (2) B removes it. Some time later, (3) C reinserts the text, (4) D removes it, and (5) C reinserts it again less than 24 hours after edit (4). In the plain meaning of the sentence, C can argue that they didn't violate the rule because the "original author" of the text is A and not them. I've seen this from experienced editors at least three times at AE and on multiple occasions that didn't get to AE. A different problem is that the English language does not usually use "author" to refer to someone who makes a deletion, so a sequence deletion, revert, deletion is not clearly covered. Without thinking about it very much, I propose that the sentence be modified as follows: "If an editor makes an edit that is reverted, that editor may not redo the edit within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit."
Zero
talk 09:44, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
To editor Callanecc: I never said the rule was being gamed. I believe that all or most of the appearances I have seen of this interpretation were made in good faith. I'm not surprised, either, because the wording is objectively misleading. Zero talk 11:59, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Arbs, please see this current AE case for a fine example of how everyone is confused about the meaning of "original author". Zero talk 09:50, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
@ KrakatoaKatie: Please the AE case in my previous sentence. Practically nobody knows what this clause means. Please fix it! Zero talk 12:10, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I second Zero suggestion to make the original author clause more clear.-12:31, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I was asked to comment here by two people. Zero0000 is quite correct that the text is a bit confusing, and it should be amended along the lines they suggest. The AE case cited is a good example of the confusion, though in my opinion, it's a clear-cut violation of the remedy. The problem is that the remedy is bad.
I consider the changing of the wording to be putting a band-aid on a cancer. The fact of the matter is that nobody understands the remedy passed by ArbCom, not the editors, not the admins, not even people who pushed for the remedy in the first place. See the current AE case where I demonstrate this.
The wording ("Option 2" here) should never have been implemented, and I said so at the time. I don't have any confidence that ArbCom will do the right thing, since they have already screwed up multiple times. I may say something more substantial in the future, but that's enough for now. I would prefer a new ARCA where the cancer itself is considered, not just the band-aid. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:55, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by The Rambling Man at 16:10, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
No need for a ban when we don't interact, haven't interacted, one of us is mainly retired, and there's not one iota of evidence that any threat to Wikipedia or any undue incivility will occur. The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:11, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm not retired as TRM asserted, though I have spent less time and energy on this project than I used to. Also, I see no point on appealing the IBAN, considering that he and I were blocked last year for IBAN violation. Since then, I've not interacted with him at all and have no plans to do so at the moment. Furthermore, considering the way he interacts with other editors who are not his friends, not to mention two other AE blocks last year, and another IBAN slapped on him last year, I found myself compelled to leave the IBAN intact for now. George Ho ( talk) 18:29, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by David Tornheim at 23:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
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I’m sure it’s not a bad faith edit on Kingofaces43’s part; however, without having the courtesy of notifying me, Kingofaces has prominently mentioned me at this WP:AE discussion.
My question to ArbCom is this: Under the terms of my topic ban in this area, am I allowed to respond to King’s statements regarding me?
King has also prominently mentioned me with regard to my TBAN at this open WP:AN/I discussion. Am I allowed to respond there or somewhere else? Is there an appropriate venue? -- David Tornheim ( talk) 23:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you to all the arbs that have weighed in. I appreciate the feedback. I support the close. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 17:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't think much else needs to be said aside from that this filing or following the AE case is a violation of David's GMO topic ban. That's in part why they weren't pinged or alerted, which considering their topic ban, could have been considered pointy, grave-dancing, baiting, etc. if I had done so. The case also wasn't particularly relevant to David (no new sanctions being imposed on them) aside from me saying here's an example of pretty parallel behavior that got people topic-banned in the topic. People aren't always familiar with the GMO aspersions principle and the history of it, so examples of past issues with it at AE are helpful for admins who haven't followed the topic.
Either way, the topic ban was supposed to keep David out of this topic. I'm not sure why he thinks it would be ok to comment in an AE case on GMOs. If anything, it feels in similar territory as this AE case by another topic-banned editor with the take home message being that topic-banned editors should know better than to involve themselves in GMO DS issues unless it's to appeal their topic ban. We had problems at ANI with David violating their topic ban recently as well as concerns in this ANI thread of vexatious use of admin boards to proxy battleground behavior from the GMO topic. I chose to ignore it at that time after removing their initial topic-ban violation, but if this behavior continues and an admin doesn't call David out for that, it seems like a pretty straightforward subject to bring to AE. This venue's not really needed for that though, so I'm not sure what arbs could say here other than steer clear of the topic if anything. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 00:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
It seems to me that if anyone proposes any kind of sanctions or other actions against David, anywhere, David has every right to respond, anywhere – but that's not what's going on here. Pointing to a past case involving him does not require a response from him; the past case stands unless there is a successful appeal. And there certainly is the appearance that he has been following editors against whom he has a grudge following his GMO topic ban: link. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 01:12, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm frankly shocked that nothing has been done witht David since his first (one-month) block for TBAN violation. He hasn't apparently made any attempt to improve his behaviour, and has been blatantly hounding Jytdog, recently showing up at ANI for the first time in sixteen months for the sole purpose of undermining him in two separate threads. This is obviously revenge for the whole GMO mess, even though Jyt, who was already banned himself in the original case, had nothing to do with David's banning -- that didn't stop him from dancing on Jyt's metaphorical grave during the AE thread that led to his own TBAN, and it doesn't seem to be stopping him now. He has barely contributed anything to the mainspace in at least a year, and seems much more interested in picking fights. (Note that so-called "kombucha" does not appear to fall under GMO, even broadly, so neither Jyt nor David violated a TBAN simply by making edits related to it; my contention is that, by continuing to go after Jytdog as he has been, David is engaging in the same disruption that led to his TBAN, in clear retalliation for the GMO incident several years ago).
Obviously, ARCA is not the best place for me to be bringing this up, as I don't think it quite rises to the level of an ArbCom site ban at this point, but I do think the IDHT regarding his own TBAN, followed by a swift and long block, followed be storming away from the project for the better part of a year, followed by ... [11] (and probably more than a few others), followed by hounding Jytdog, combined with his barely making any noteworthy contributions to the mainspace during this time, I think this probably does rise to the level of some kind of community sanction, perhaps an indef block.
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 09:24, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
No comment on the request for clarification, and I have never been involved in the whole GMO stuff, but as Hijiri and Tryptofish hint above, it may be time to consider a one-way IBan of Davod Tornheim towards Jytdog and Kingofaces (and possibly others who are as yet unmentioned here). Softlavender ( talk) 10:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by Tryptofish at 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
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I would like to ask the Committee how one should understand the following question:
I'm asking this question based on several recent experiences at WP:AE (it doesn't matter which ones). It appears to me that enforcing administrators have become reluctant to get involved in some complaints, when the complaint is not a clear-cut and obvious one. In particular, I have been seeing administrator comments along the lines of "we expect a certain amount of nastiness in topic areas that are highly disputed, so we should just let that go." I realize of course that this is always a case-by-case sort of thing. I suspect that some of this grows out of a concern about backlash against an administrative decision, some out of the fact that there aren't very many admins working at AE, some out of the difficulty of working through tl;dr statements, and some out of the good-faith and very reasonable desire not to sanction someone for simply getting a little hot under the collar.
But I've also long believed (perhaps mistakenly) that part of the idea behind DS is that the Committee has determined that the topic area has become such a problem that there is a need to decisively clamp down on disruptive behavior, and that editors who are properly "aware" are expected not to test the boundaries of acceptable conduct. But I think I've been hearing from some AE admins that they regard conduct that has been chronic and disruptive, way beyond the typical hot under the collar situation, but that is the kind of thing that leads to a wall-of-text at WP:ANI, as suboptimal but acceptable when DS are in effect. So how should admins at AE understand the intention of DS in that regard? -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
This says to me that general community norms are meant to be preserved as much as possible, but when an editor departs from these norms to any degree, there is far less leniency granted.I see that sentence as being at the heart of what I am asking. It sounds to me like, as far as what I called "good behavior" goes, the basic concept of what that is, is the same with or without DS, but when DS are present, it is expected that there will be "far less leniency" for deviations from proper conduct. Is that correct? -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:27, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Acting decisively is one thing; going out on a limb and getting it cut from behind you is another.I think some reassurance that AE admins are supposed to get things up to "normal" – as opposed to just keeping them above rock-bottom – could be beneficial. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Do we know of any research that shows what effects the Arbcom authorization of Discretionary Sanctions has, if any, both positive and negative? Research of this nature could shed some light on whether modifications or clarifications, such as Tryptofish mentions, would be good. The scope of my question is broader than Tryptofish's question, but there is some overlap. I'm not proposing modifications or clarifications, or opposing modifications or clarifications, but I think that a review of research would be beneficial before deciding what next steps to take. -- Pine ✉ 19:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
This is a good clarification question being posed. I have a bit of a followup related to the interplay of DS and ArbCom. When behavior X is a major disruptive issue in the topic, arbs can pass motions as a finding of fact saying it has caused disruption while allowing general DS in the topic or even passing principles or DS specifically saying such behavior is not appropriate instead.
Now when it comes to AE, editors can present such behavior and say ArbCom has said this isn't appropriate. Admins are free to say what degree of sanctions are needed or not, etc. However, when admins say they expect that level of behavior in DS topics or even say they don't think that behavior is a problem, isn't that contradicting ArbCom to a degree? Admins obviously have discretion with discretionary sanctions, but can that discretion contradict ArbCom findings that specific behavior is problem when it comes to these behavior issues Tryptofish is talking about? Kingofaces43 ( talk) 00:55, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
This might be a dumb question (sorry) but can someone point me to a clear definition of exactly what "discretionary sanctions" is or are? This is a very good clarification, Tryptofish. Thank you. Minor 4th 00:32, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I still haven't figured out how/why ArbCom doesn't handle arbitration enforcement - I wonder if doing so would result in better remedies during arbitration. 😉 Gotta wonder why we have this venue for clarification. We elect administrators to use the mop to keep the peace and do necessary janitorial chores around the project, which means that with our admin shortage, they're already overworked and pressed for time. We elect ArbCom to resolve the complex issues that could not be remedied by the community or individual admins, so why is arb enforcement left to the discretion of a single admin? The words of Opabinia regalis still reverberate regarding an issue brought to this noticeboard because it was too complex for AE: ..."too complex for AE" means "too complex for self-selected volunteers who aren't actually obliged to do fuck all", whereas "too complex for ARCA" means "too complex for the people who specifically volunteered for and were elected to deal with complex problems and are as obliged to do things as anybody can be in an internet hobby". We can thank our lucky stars that we have a good share of excellent admins and arbitrators and that complex matters don't have to be judged by a single admin who serves as both our judge & jury. I think arb remedies/DS should always be handled by a minimum of three admins, and the three should rotate every quarter. My apologies for being so critical, but the entire process just doesn't seem to be very efficient, and we're losing good editors as a result. Atsme ✍🏻 📧 02:27, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by Obsidi at 12:00, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
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I have a question concerning the principles ArbCom has established concerning WP:Casting aspersions. As this isn't a policy or guideline, this seemed the best place to clarify such decisions. My question is, does this only apply when a specific editor is named or implied? Obviously given the context in which the words are stated, it may be clear who they are WP:Casting aspersions on, and in such a case that cannot be allowed. But the problem I see with not allowing people to discuss such misbehavior more generically is that it stifles discussion concerning generalized problems with Wikipedia's processes in general.
For instance, if I say "there are a lot of bullies on the noticeboards." Saying a specific person is being a bully repeatedly without bringing them to a noticeboard and providing evidence of that would be WP:Casting aspersions. But at the same time, there may in fact be a lot of bullies on the noticeboards and yet it may not rise to the level of seriousness where sanctions are justified (and so bringing them before an appropriate noticeboard and accusing them of that would be futile).
Additionally I may wish to discuss such a problem so we can devise a solution to "there being a lot of bullies on the noticeboards." But how can I do this if I cannot even discuss the very problems that I wish to fix?
For these reasons, I am of the opinion that WP:Casting aspersions was properly limited to named or where it could reasonably be inferred who the person was talking about. But in the context of a recent block, another editor disagreed [19]. This isn't about that specific block (or whether the block is appropriate, or the conditions for unblock). But just a question of what the rules are. In re-reading WP:Casting aspersions, I noticed that it was somewhat ambiguous on this topic and so I could hardly blame the other editor for coming to this conclusion. So I am asking for clarification.
It may be that my connecting Michael Hardy's non-specific broadly generalized charges about "corruption", "bullies", "cliques" and "dishonesty" on the Noticeboards to WP:Casting aspersions will be a step too far for some, but I continue to think that it's close enough to the spirit of CA to justify the connection. It hardly matters, though, since the Fourth Pillar specifies that "Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility," and it can hardly be said that Hardy making such wild accusations about unspecified parties is either civil or collegial. If there is corruption, bullying, cliquishness, and dishonesty, it needs to be dealt with, but the only way that can happen is by the presentation of specific evidence about specific editors. Hardy's steadfast refusal to do so seems to me to be in direct opposition to what the Fourth Pillar stands for, besides being disruptive and not at all the kind of behavior that I, at least, expect from an admin. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 02:20, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
It would be unwise to apply CA to general statements about the Wikipedia editing population or some segment thereof, or even more generally about human nature and its effects on Wikipedia editing. Those discussions are important and meaningful, even occasionally useful. And I've never seen anybody apply CA to that type of comments, including quite a few I've made myself.
I think the essential difference is whether the comments arise from the whole of one's Wikipedia experience or from a specific situation. My exposure to the MH saga was limited, but my impression is that his remarks were more of the latter type, and CA applies. As for what BMK meant in the comment linked by the OP, BMK can (and, I expect, will) speak for himself. ― Mandruss ☎ 12:29, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree that clarity is needed to help eliminate the inconsistencies in admin actions that may range from no action at all to indef t-bans or blocks, and everything else in between - all of which depends on who the admin and subject editor happen to be at the time. An occasional *sigh* at the end of a sentence may be misconstrued as belittling which is an aspersion whereas profanity shouted in anger may be excused. Is telling someone their comment is full of bologna an aspersion? Do insults count as aspersions - could a joke be thought of as an aspersion? Why are aspersions actionable and not outbursts of profanity? Perhaps examples should be provided as a gage to determine what is considered (1) intolerable aspersions that are blockable, (2) borderline aspersions that require a warning, and (3) not an aspersion. Having clarity and a gage to judge by may help to eliminate potential unwarranted actions or incidents where no action was taken because of uncertainty. It is clear that casting aspersions must be accompanied by diffs but more emphasis needs to be placed on the fact that the provided diffs must clearly support the claim, and it should apply to all editors & admins who participate at AE, AN, AN/I and wherever else aspersions may be an actionable behavioral issue. If the diffs are found to not support the allegations, then a boomerang is in order, and the latter really needs to be included in the clarification. I think it will help eliminate some of the cases we're seeing now that are based on casting aspersions. Atsme ✍🏻 📧 17:51, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Like Atsme, I feel that there is a lot of undefined territory here. As I see it, a lot of the difficulty comes out of the community's lack of broad consensus as to what constitutes incivility (and of course there is a limit to how far ArbCom should get ahead of the community). It looks to me like the community has low tolerance for new or unregistered editors saying incivil stuff, but is willing to make way too many (in my opinion) excuses when an established and net-positive user says something incivil. I feel like I'm seeing much more anger in discussions than I would like to see. As for aspersions specifically, I would suggest that ArbCom look at it in terms of where a particular conduct does or does not disrupt editing.
As I see it, saying that other editors are taking a position because they hold a particular belief should not be considered an aspersion. If I say "I think you feel strongly about X, and that's why you want to edit the page that way", although it's true that I am commenting on another editor's motivations, that's not something that we should disallow. It can be a necessary part of some discussions.
But if I say "I think you are incompetent, and that's why you made that edit", that is an aspersion and a personal attack. The difference is I'm not talking about the other editor's point of view, but about their personal characteristics.
And saying without clear evidence "I think you are editing that way because you are acting on behalf of X" is also an aspersion, and one with a history. The last case linked by the OP here was the GMO case: [21]. And this is a history that needs to be understood. Prior to the case, it had become common for editors to say things like "Editors are trying to sanitize this page because Wikipedia is full of shills acting on behalf of Monsanto". It became such a problem that it led to significant findings in that case. After the case, editors who were not already topic banned realized that they had better not say "shill" anymore, so they started dancing around it by saying things like "Editors are acting together to keep all criticism of Monsanto off this page". And here is the reason why that is still an aspersion, in a way that "Editors want to have more negative content about GMOs" is not. It goes beyond asserting that other editors have a particular POV, to where there is the implication, without evidence, of conduct that violates policy. We have policies against undeclared paid editing, and the aspersion is that some editors are violating those policies, above and beyond just having a POV. And it doesn't matter if the aspersion is framed in general instead of identifying a particular editor by name. It's still something that should be considered an aspersion, and it is something that can be highly disruptive. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:14, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
It does seem as though aspersions are in the eye of the beholder. As such, there is wild inconsistency in enforcement, which leads to the problem of editors not really having proper notice of where there boundaries are. I think that most policies and guidelines on Wiki are interpreted and applied this way, however. Minor 4th 00:42, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: In your example, it seems you only dealt with part of the analysis (perhaps because that is the direct issue). I'm sure you are aware, but 'no aspersions' is only part of the fuzzy 'code of conduct', if you will, see eg, WP:AGF. So, leaping to 'paid' should be avoided, especially when nothing even suggests paid is involved, and we are dealing with multiple people from multiple places/life experiences, who are bound to say things differently. Seems a better way if you want to explore it, would be to ask honest good faith questions (eg. non-accusatory), before assuming anything. Especially so, since 'you said others were paid', could itself fall into 'aspersion' territory. -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 17:40, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by Beeblebrox at 20:48, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
The 2016 committee decided a “reminder” was a sufficient remedy in this case. That reminder has clearly failed to have the desired effect as disruption in this area has continued and taken much time and resources from the community. The remedy reminds Michael Hardy that “Administrators are expected to set an example with their behavior, including refraining from incivility and responding patiently to good-faith concerns about their conduct, even when those concerns are expressed suboptimally.” and the finding of fact upon wich this remedy was based, [22] reads, in part, that “(Michael Hardy) has perpetuated the dispute with his own actions. Hardy has assumed bad faith of the editors criticizing his behavior and failed to drop the stick.” If he was failing to drop the stick two years ago, and is still causing disruption in this exact same area even after a full arbitration case by now it must at least be failure to drop a limb or a tree trunk. Here is the recent AN thread [23] a village pump thread [24] and a recent thread at Jimbotalk [25]. Hardy’s talk page and block log also contain relevant material showing that this is part of the same issue as the previous full case.
I would suggest that this sort of behavior is unbecoming of an administrator, and for failing to heed this warning, Michael Hardy be removed as an administrator. I would stress that I am not alleging tool misuse but rather a clear, prolonged unwillingness or inability to abide by expected standards of admin behavior, as outlined in the committee’s previous decision. I believe the community has failed itself by not bringing this forward sooner, allowing the committee to sit on it’s hands and do nothing while all this disruption has gone on in project space.
(To be clear, I am automatically listed as a party due to filing this request but I have had no involvement whatsoever in the current dispute and cycle of blocking and unblocking. I am including those admins as parties here as I’m sure they will each have their own opinions to proffer)
To those who seem to think I wish to re-litigate the recent AN thread and the assosciated blocks: I do not. Whether he shoud have been blocked for his behavior was addressed by the community, and it seems, finally, to have made up its mind. What I am looking to do is assess whether Hardy should still be an admin, which is the exclusive purview of the committee and it has already ruled once on his behavior in this specific topic area and how it reflects on his continued membership in the admin corps. I might have done this sooner but I was camping for the last week and when I came back and saw the drama had continued but it still hadn’t been brought here as it should’ve been. Arbcom doesn’t go looking for cases and requests even if it is well aware of the issues, somebody has to bring it to them, and nobody else seemed like they were going to do it.
I may be pressing the word limit now, but in answers to “why now” I would again suggest that this is what should’ve been done to begin with, as there was already a full case on this exact issue. I was unavailable at the time the AN thread was closed and the unblocking occured and looking at the closde thread I was surprised to find that seemingly it hadn’t occured to anyone that this was already Arbcom’s problem since they issued a ruling on this editor’s behavior in this specific topic area previously, and also the issue of conduct unbecoming an admin is not an issue the community is equipped to deal with, only the committee is. His fitness as an editor is not the topic here, only how his behavior reflects on his staus as an admin, which he was explicitly warned about by this committee.
If I had not been completely blindsided by learning of the existence of the corruption, dishonesty, and bullying that is the dominant behavior of the Administrators' Noticeboards, I would have conducted myself differently in the recent events. However, there is no reason for me to recant or apologize for allegations of dishonesty, corruption, and bullying. And those are accusations, not "personal attacks". There are accusations against me on this present page, and no one is calling those "personal attacks" or "insults". That discrepancy is in itself dishonest. It is a fact that on Administrators' Noticeboards and like venues, there are unstated unadmitted pecking orders, and those who rank high in that unacknowledged system, and their sycophants and other supporters, have de-facto licenses to accuse others without being accused of "personal attacks" or "insults", while others who make accusations of the same kinds, myself obviously included, are accused of "personal attacks" and when making assertions that are factually correct or factually incorrect and that are in fact accusations. And that situation does not scratch the surface of the deep corruption in such forums. I don't even have any idea how to collect sycophants and it has never occurred to me to wish to do so, but as we see, some are masters of that art.
One thing I find disturbing that I have not yet commented on is an exchange with Alex Shih. I said that nobody had attempted to explain why allegations are not libelous, that say that the only reason why professors at respected universities use the standard terminology of their fields in public is to create a false impression of legitimacy. Alex Shih responded that many people had explained that to me. When asked for diffs, he linked to the very page on which many had refused to explain that, plus a page on which another user, Guy Macon, had asserted that meetings at which professors present their research findings to each other are "unquestionably highly lucrative", at best an implausible statement, and therefore those professors are dishonest. I can only wonder if Alex Shih was paying attention to what he wrote.
(I actually suspect Guy Macon of honesty, which his followers seem to lack, since he was willing to attempt to give some comprehensible reason for his position. But he has not found out that meetings at which professors present their research findings to each other are not the same thing as marketing fad diets to the public, nor that such meetings are a standard practice among academics.)
Possibly I will file an ArbCom case, but that may be too expensive. I will probably want to be advise in the matter by counsel who is thoroughly familiar ArbCom proceedings. This is an important matter. If I do that, I may or may not include some mention of the
I asked "NewYorkBrad" in an email if there is some rational grounds for confidence in the integrity and competence of the Arbitration Committee. Some time later he has not replied. Michael Hardy ( talk) 18:07, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Is this a "live case or controversy"? I thought it had finally died down? Guy ( Help!) 21:35, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
My thoughts are as follows:
I don't have any strong opinions on what to happen next, but this is simply the current state of affairs as I see it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:21, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Michael Hardy was indefinitely blocked for, essentially, repeatedly complaining about a group of editors who responded to a complaint he made here, and refusing to drop the stick about it. For reasons I explained in my assessment here and here, the treatment MH received was very unfair and problematic, so much so that I apologized to him on behalf of AN. Myself and a group of other admins eventually negotiated an unblock in which Michael agreed to not bring it up anymore. We let him have the last word, and he appears to have moved on since then, with no further issues. I have no idea why someone would try to rehash this all now, days after the situation had been reasonably resolved. There was no significant offense here, just some very human righteous indignation.
Beeblebrox, I’m only passing through, having seen the link elsewhere, so I can’t comment on the situation here, but I think I’m right in saying that little will happen without diffs to show the behaviour you outline. Cheers - SchroCat ( talk) 21:14, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
This seems like picking at a fresh scab, Beeb. I'd have waited to see what happens now that the recent troubles appear to have died down. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 21:18, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
No. Michael Hardy validly complained about AN/ANI, refused to stop complaining about AN/ANI, and was blocked by AN/ANI. Perhaps instead AN/ANI ought to be "reminded". Paul August ☎ 22:04, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
I absolutely agree Micheal should be desysopped for their behaviour but the drama's died down and they've finally dropped the stick so in my eyes the best course of action would be to leave them be and if they start again then Arb is (or should be) the first port of call. I just don't see the point in rehashing it all out again. – Davey2010 Talk 22:13, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
This is a model of poor AN behavior, and it is so because of the ad hominem of which Michael Hardy was the victim, in the form of 'Because it is you, Michael Hardy . . .'. So, it is AN that is in need of reminding that WP:CIV explicitly seeks to prevent bringing up the past in such a manner (" it is as unacceptable to attack a user who has a history of foolish or boorish behaviour, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user"). Alanscottwalker ( talk) 22:27, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, Michael should have been desysopped during the period of chaos that resulted from his persistent personal attacks on other editors (his actions were clearly not in keeping with anyone who holds advanced permissions), but this seems like a strange time to be bringing a case now, when everything has died down and Michael has promised not to repeat his actions. Obviously, if such editing were to reoccur, a desysopping would be a slam dunk, but I'd like to think that we'd give someone a chance to show they can carry on with their (obviously positive) editing without such an issue happening again. Black Kite (talk) 23:13, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Since the fuss, MH has edited 38 articles and one DYK and has made no mention of the excitement that I can see. Picking at the scab is most undesirable. There has been no suggestion that admin tools have been misused so removing them would be pointless. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:31, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
As one who was trying to de-escalate the latest fracas, I simply want to offer my opinion that Ritchie333's statement is an accurate and fair account of what happened, and his opinion that "A significant amount of disruption and drama would go away if people just left Michael alone" is sound. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 06:55, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I think "staleness" can matter in some cases. The crucial distinction that I think exists here is that Michael Hardy is not accused of any misuse of the admin tools, nor is there any substantial cause for concern that he will abuse them going forward. This is, rather, just a "conduct unbecoming" case (and having looked at what happened, Michael Hardy is not the only one whose conduct was not the greatest). If Michael (and everyone else) really will drop the matter, then it's over with and nothing further is needed. If he doesn't intend to do that, desysopping won't prevent him from raising it again anyway. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I was one of the parties in the case referenced. I'm of the opinion that the way MH was handled most recently was the best way to do it: When he throws a fit about something, block him until he agrees to stop throwing a fit about it, then unblock him so he can continue editing. This is, IMHO, an editor who's behavior needs managing, but who contributes quite usefully to the project. So let's just handle the behavior and let him keep contributing. Note that my value judgement of the behavior would read very differently, but since we're not here to teach adulting lessons, we should focus on what helps the project. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:48, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I commend Michael Hardy for speaking the truth about the double-standards and other serious long-standing problems at Wikipedia at Jimbo's page, even if he goes overboard with hyperbole. The numerous attempts to silence him (via multiple A/N and ArbCom filings, warnings, and blocks) for raising legitimate concerns is sickening: It confirms exactly what he has been saying about bullying--bullying to silence him. His accusers can run circles around him with filings like this taunting him and and provoking him into restating his concerns about being bullied, but somehow that is okay.
He did, in fact, promise to stop talking about these problems--something he should never have been required to do. I see the opening of this ArbCom amendment as an open invitation for him to restate his concerns about the double-standards.
I agree with those who have stated that there are problems on "both sides". If we can agree on that, we might get somewhere.
What we need is more uniform application of civility rules, which I did see with a recent revert and block by Boing!_said_Zebedee.
-- David Tornheim ( talk) 01:41, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by Ivanvector at 16:00, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
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I'm requesting clarification of NadirAli's unblock conditions, which included a topic ban which was later suspended and then presumably rescinded as part of the suspension motion. The first bullet of the unblock conditions describes the topic ban and also the remedies for enforcement of the topic ban. The second bullet specifies that NadirAli may not edit from an alternate account nor "anonymously" (which I have taken to mean editing while logged out) but does not separately specify enforcement remedies. I have two questions:
Thanks for your time. Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 16:00, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I appreciate that Ivanvector has brought this to Arbcom for clarification. As per the standards of blocking policy for sockpuppetry, the sockmaster with his socks is indeffed for repeated offences. An indefinite block is completely justified in this case since this is not the first time that NadirAli is guilty of sock puppetry, but many many times. [1]
Furthermore, we must not forget that NadirAli evaded his siteban, topic ban, one-account restriction and image upload ban throughout these 10 years. -- RaviC ( talk) 16:09, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Magioladitis at 00:26, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
I would like a clarification in a series of things that concern my restrictions.
Thanks, Magioladitis ( talk) 00:28, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by RebeccaSaid at 12:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
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Please can you provide clarification around the scope of the Topic Ban issued to Philip Cross, 26 July 2018?
On 2 August Philip Cross edited the article of Colin Jordan and on 3 August he edited the article of /Andrew Faulds.
Both of these articles would appear to fall within the reach of “post-1978 British politics, broadly construed”.
On 5 August User Kal Holmann raised the potential breach of the TB here: Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Philip_Cross
Notwithstanding the issue of self-reverting, which Cross did only after the potential breach was raised, there’s an interesting point being made around the wording of the actual Topic Ban.
Looking at the standard policy I read “a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic, as encapsulated in the phrase "broadly construed". “ Topic ban
However, it would appear that the Topic Ban of Philip Cross is being interpreted differently -
"I would close this as not actionable. The wording of the remedy is in relevant part: "Philip Cross is indefinitely topic banned from edits relating to post-1978 British politics". This is more restrictive than a usual topic ban per WP:TBAN: while a usual topic ban covers both pages related to the topic and edits related to the topic, the unusual wording of the remedy ("banned from edits relating to ...") indicates that this ban is intended to cover only edits related to the topic. The normal wording would have been something like "banned from anything related to ...". In this case, the edits as such were not related to politics, and the remedy was therefore not violated." Sandstein 06:54, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Can you kindly confirm then, which of these interpretations is accurate? Thank you. -- RebeccaSaid ( talk) 12:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Earlier today, I edited the article on John Strachey who died in 1963. The article also links to Harold Wilson who left the House of Commons in 1983 (died 1995), Manny Shinwell (1884–1986) a Labour peer and Peter Doig who left the Commons in 1979. These edits are thus marginally in the post-1978 era, and it is possible I could be successfully challenged. A little earlier today, I worked on an article about Jon Kimche, who knew George Orwell in the 1930s, but decided to revert because the article contains a mention of Michael Foot during the second world war when he was a journalist. Possibly I should do the same at Anthony Crosland (died 1977) because Roy Jenkins is mentioned and the article cites a book which includes the term 'New Labour' in the title. I edited David Mamet yesterday after searching for references to 'antisemitism'. It cites an interview with Mamet conducted in New York in 2011 which mentions his general claims about A/S in the UK and also includes a mention of Harold Pinter who was certainly a writer on politics post-1978. Should I revert? There are other recent edits of mine, such as to Dennis Potter, which should be counted as well. The article includes Potter's comments about the Australian-American Rupert Murdoch, who has had an influence on British politics since 1978 as elsewhere, and surely also falls under the "broadly construed" element. Philip Cross ( talk) 14:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Today's exchange between inactive ArbCom member User:BU Rob13 and uninvolved admin User:Sandstein emphasizes the need for formal clarification of this point by the Arbitration Committee.
"The remedy as written," Sandstein comments, "appears to contradict itself. While it links to WP:TBAN, which defines a standard topic ban that includes both topic-related edits and other edits to topic-related pages, the clause 'edits relating to' has, as I read it, a limiting effect such that only topic-related edits are prohibited, not other edits to topic-related pages. To avoid such uncertainty, I recommend that future remedies are worded to only make reference to WP:TBAN without additional clauses, e.g., '... is topic-banned ( WP:TBAN) from British politics'. Based on the current wording, I myself would take no action here, although of course other admins are free to interpret the remedy differently and take action."
As a non-administrator, I naturally defer to admins in their knowledge of Wikipedia procedures. However, Sandstein's reading seems contrary to the spirit of ArbCom's sanction against Philip Cross. Please resolve this. KalHolmann ( talk) 14:40, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
As an admin working at AE, I appreciate the proposed motion because it clarifies the remedy. When evaluating an AE request, I generally try to apply the plain meaning of the text of the applicable remedy. If the text is unclear or appears contradictory, as in this case, I tend to not take action, so as to err on the side of caution. Other admins, of course, may want to proceed differently. Sandstein 07:26, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The "Philip Cross topic banned" remedy in the BLP issues on British politics articles case is modified to read as follows:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Atsme at 18:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
I am here to appeal my t-ban after taking some time off for introspection, and to analyze the many diffs MrX presented in his case against me. I published the results at User talk:Atsme/RVW. This has been a difficult case for me because I once held MrX in high regard; however, his accusation that I have an ideological blindspot is, in and of itself, evidence that he believes his own ideology is superior, and I consider that to be detrimental to the project. His case against me was devastating as my initial reaction shows but I have since learned from it.
I’m sure we can all agree that sanctions are not intended to prevent free and candid discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think civil disagreement while seeking consensus would be grounds for a sanction, or that suggesting consistency with MOS or using humor here and there to defuse tense situations would be grounds for sanctions. Articles with DS/1RR-consensus required restrictions naturally increase discussion, and one can expect lively debates because reverted editors tend to experience higher levels of frustration.
Administrators are expected to exercise good judgment, and respond flexibly and proportionately when they intervene. They should carefully analyze behavior without preference or bias, and determine if a remedy has been violated, or if the case and associated preliminary warnings were vexatious. Accused editors are customarily given an opportunity to defend themselves, but above all, they should not have to deal with intimidation, threats, or enforcement by an involved administrator. Unfortunately, none of the aforementioned received proper consideration in my case as the following diffs will demonstrate.
MrX presented a compilation of cherrypicked diffs taken out of context, grouped them with prepended aspersions, exaggerations and misrepresentations in his ARCA case against me. It is patterned behavior used to rid himself of opposition. (Note: I have many more diffs that establish the pattern if needed)
MrX was aware there was neither a smoking gun nor clear evidence of disruption worthy of a t-ban in my case.
Disruptive behavior by MrX for comparison purposes
The following will demonstrate that there was a lack of urgency for Bishonen to impose a t-ban which she inadvertently admits in her statement below. The ARCA case was only 12 hrs old, and her action against me was retaliatory and had a chilling effect, as it followed within 9 min after I posted the 1st phase of evidence in my defense which including diffs of incivility against her fellow admin.
Further evidence of Bishonen’s involvement
Aug 2017, Bishonen appeared at AN3 for this one case while she was on a semi-break, and of course, it was the case I filed
Floquenbeam, allow me to clarify. I intended for the diffs MrX used against me - which I published with an analysis at User talk:Atsme/RVW - to be used as a comparison to the diffs I included here. I hope the arbs will take the time necessary to compare the two behaviors before they decline this case, and at least help me understand why they believe my behavior was worthy of a t-ban as compared to his. Am I expected to adjust my behavior to be more like that of those not being t-banned? Bishonen also pointed out in her statement during my case that my t-ban would not stop the disruptive behavior at those articles - isn't that the purpose of a t-ban - to stop/prevent disruption to the project? If her action did not prevent disruption, why was I singled out by an involved admin? I think my evidence speaks volumes. It does not surprise me to see admins and editors I have a history with to show up here to defend those in their camp. All I asked is for the arbs to review the evidence, compare the two behaviors, confirm the involvement and explain to me why I was singled out. Is that too much to ask? Atsme 📞 📧 16:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Drmies, you have already demonstrated your inability to judge me without bias when you misinterpreted my adherence to NPOV in this diff and then said the hurtful things you said to me here when I asked for help. I'm sorry, but it's just not appropriate for you to sit in judgment of me when those 2 diffs alone demonstrate how you really feel. Atsme 📞 📧 17:13, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
As the banning admin, I think it's appropriate to leave the consideration of whether or not Atsme's topic ban should be lifted to the arbitrators. My rationale for placing the ban on 29 June 2018 can be seen here and here. At this time I only want to say I don't understand Atsme's claim that I'm an involved admin wrt her, and also don't understand her case (?) against MrX. She has been insisting I'm involved since at least 2015, but I've never understood it, and the diffs she posts above seem irrelevant, some of them wildly so. Bishonen appears from her semi-break? Bishonen said "Fuck" when Andy the Grump retired? Bishzilla puts little Giano in her pocket for safe-keeping [sic]? Seriously, what? See WP:INVOLVED. I can't find any diff in that list that suggests I'm involved wrt Atsme, let alone that my admin actions are "retaliatory" (?). I don't understand the diffs purporting to show bad behaviour by MrX, either. How do they make his filing of an ARCA case against Atsme inappropriate? OMG, I see he, too, has been guilty of "profanity" — though less gravely than me — he has said "bullshit". [8] What does any of it have to do with the price of tea in China? Bishonen | talk 19:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC).
The stuff about Bishonen seems silly enough that I won't comment on it. Sorry, Bish. (well, ok, one comment: pocketing Giano?! what the?!) But I do want to point out - not as a rhetorical gambit, not as a gotcha, but as a real, honest observation/complaint - that all of the diffs regarding Mr.X, an editor with whom she frequently crossed swords in the AP topic area, have nothing to do with an "appeal". This portion of her appeal here should be considered a violation of her topic ban, clearly attacking an AP opponent when she's topic banned from AP, superficially masquerading as an appeal. We need to stop people from doing this. An appeal should be an appeal, not a free, sanction-immune opportunity to attack an opponent in an area she is otherwise topic banned from. I realize that a sanction will be characterized by her as "punishment for appealing", but having to deal with that kind of spin should not prevent someone from clearly and strongly discouraging this kind of games-playing. I suggest allowing her to remove this request, and give her time to create one that has a greater than 2% chance of succeeding, and that does not attempt to attack MrX. If she says she wants to remove this, I won't mind if my comment here goes down the memory hole too; I would hope MrX and Bish wouldn't mind either, tho I can't speak for them. Of course, I have a feeling the Arb bureaucracy won't like a simple removal, or others will start to comment soon and make the suggestion moot, but it's worth suggesting. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 21:21, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
It's been a long time since Bishonen called an editor "you little shit" but I'd like to address whether Bishonen issues bans inconsiderately, with an example from during a dispute between two editors about calling a person a climate change denier (a subtopic that Bishonen had once edited). 11:16 Bishonen sent a DS/alert to Editor#2. 15:48 Editor#2 reverted to restore some tags. 15:50 Editor#2 on the talk page asked the person who inserted the tags whether it's okay. 16:35 Bishonen banned Editor#2 "for persistent disruptive editing on Myron Ebell and its talkpage" with "... no input on talk" (which was incorrect). So for this one post-alert edit Editor#2 got indefinitely banned not just from Myron Ebell but from climate change broadly construed. I hope administrators see this as confirmation that Bishonen bypasses usual procedures too quickly. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 22:49, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
I think Peter left a bit of history out of his banned-for-one-edit narrative above: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Myron_Ebell&offset=20161110160000&action=history&tagfilter= -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
If Peter Gulutzan believes that Bishonen has a history of misapplying their authority as an admin, then Peter Gulutzan should file a desysop request at Requests for Arbitration. If they don't have the evidence to support such a request, then their coming here with (half-a-)story intended to besmirch Bishonen's reputation should be removed from this amendment request as totally irrelevant. As Floquenbeam points out above, this is not, and should not be, a free-fire zone for past disputes which have no connection to the current matter. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 02:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Hopefully the clerks will clear up some of this off-topic nonsense regarding Peter Gulutzan.
Whatever the nature of Atsme's appeal, it should be declined. The topic-ban was imposed exactly as the committee intended discretionary sanctions to be imposed. Attempting to continue a disagreement with MrX demonstrates the motivation for those sanctions, an appeal based on continuing that argument should never be successful in this forum. I'd recommend no action against anyone for any TBAN violations in this thread so far. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 02:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
An appeal based solely upon attacking both the original filer and the implementing admin rarely succeeds for good reason. I don’t see any acceptance of behavioral problems for any of the numerous diffs. We need some reason to believe a change in behavior will occur. (Involved as I’m certain I was a part of some of the discussions related to the diffs.) O3000 ( talk) 02:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Decline per Floq's commentary.A host of irrelevant diffs about Bish's activities and some other points, that leads to an impression of her utilising this board to sanction MrX. ∯WBG converse 05:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I had a look at some of the Bishonen diffs, which are meant to prove that Bishonen is partial--it led me to Wikipedia:Advocacy ducks, where Atsme claims a somewhat humorous caption, which reasonable follows another Pythonesque caption, is "gibberish" (and "vandalism" in a subsequent IP edit, followed by a request for oversight--oversight of what, Bishonen rightly asks, and somehow this comment on Bishonen's part is "snarky" and grounds for the INVOLVED accusation. No. The committee should decline this appeal, which is little more than NOTTHEM. Drmies ( talk) 15:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion the topic ban appeal should be declined. Atsme has been an extremely disruptive force on Wikipedia in this topic area for nearly two years (by far the most disruptive regular Wikipedian I have seen in my 11 years here), and in my opinion the topic ban itself was very late in coming. and not broad enough. (In my opinion the topic ban should have been American politics, broadly construed.) Trying to implicate Bishonen is ridiculous; Bishonen has a very long history of clarity, integrity, and neutrality even when she is in disagreement; in fact, she has defended Atsme against others when the situation merited it.
Softlavender (
talk) 18:42, 10 August 2018 (UTC); edited
Softlavender (
talk) 19:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
All I can say is that the following reasoning is bizarre: "Editors/admins X, Y, and Z have a history of opposing my behavior, so they are clearly biased against me and their opinions about me should be disqualified." (I think my paraphrasing is accurate enough.) In other words, the only people qualified to speak on this matter should be those who are unsure of their positions about it, or haven't shown any interest until now. That kind of argument alone is enough to push me off any fence I may have been on. ― Mandruss ☎ 18:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Davidbena at 04:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
It is my view that when incidents are brought before the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard for a decision, due to the overwhelming number of incidents, that some minor incidents may occasionally be brought, haphazardly, before the board without prior consideration or thorough inspection of the edit history of the person in question against whom the complaint is made. By the nature of the Administrators' noticeboard's set-up and arrangement (based on current standing-laws governing its conduct), arriving at a fair and equitable (impartial) decision/verdict by means of "community consensus" may, in fact, be sometimes compromised if, let's say, those editors attracted to the site and who comment on the particular case are either inexperienced, or display toxic tendencies towards their fellow-editors because of their preconceived notions about that editor. Wherefore, the best way to handle incidents brought before the Administrators' noticeboard is to have an equal number of advocates and prosecutors (arguing for and against the editor), while the administrators rendering the verdict will be made-up of an unequal number of three or five, and their decision - based on the arguments heard from the advocates and the prosecutors - made by a majority vote of 2 to 1 (in the case of there being only 3 administrators). In this manner, we can avoid miscalculation of an editor's behavior or intent. Of course, this will require setting up a team of editors who will agree to work in the capacity of advocates (working to highlight the editor's good qualities), and another team who works solely as prosecutors (looking for the editor's bad qualities). Perhaps Wikipedia can compile a list of willing editors who will take in these roles, and when they are summoned to respond to a specific incident, will be given 48-hours to respond.
I greatly dislike this trend of appeals at ARCA claiming that site policies as a whole are wrong, rather than claiming that a specific sanction was too harsh. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 04:18, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I have to ask what jurisdiction that Davidbena feels that ArbCom -- an entity whose purpose is essentially to adjudicate behavioral problems -- has over the structure and practices of a community page such as AN/I. It seems to me that the very most the Committee can do would be to "strongly suggest that the community discuss changes in AN/I", or something to that effect, and that it cannot, on its own authority, force the community to change AN/I, or even to force the discussion they might think is appropriate. If I am correct in my apprehension of the limits of ArbCom's remit, then it would seem best for the Committee to reject this request for "clarification and amendment" (which is not actually a request for clarification or amendment, but, at best, should be the subject of an RfC, and, at worst, is simply an attempt to avoid a community sanction) entirely, as outside of its authority to consider. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 04:34, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Huldra at 21:55, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
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Are edits in user space also bound by WP:ARBPIA3? RebeccaSaid is/was working on an article in her user space, User:RebeccaSaid/Eva Bartlett, Shrike blanked the page, with the edit line " WP:ARBPIA3 new users aren't allowed to edit articles relating to the conflict". I undid it, which one of us is correct? Please clarify, Huldra ( talk) 21:57, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Alex Shih: The usual practice in the area revert the violation in sight and discuss it with users after the violation is removed and that what I did but I understand where you comments coming from and in similar cases I will take more lax approach next time. -- Shrike ( talk) 05:32, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Not that this is actually relevant here - but I'll clarify what I was actually doing, why I was doing it and how this situation arose.
The article of Eva Bartlett was deleted as it was created by FromNewsToEncyclopedia, block evading sock of M.A.Martin. This is what the article looked like at the point of deletion. Eva Bartlett. An attack page. The article was retrieved and then proposed for deletion again. AFD.
I started a practice/dummy article in a user space, in order to pull together some actual biographical information which is completely lacking from what is supposed to be a BLP. The intention being to post it at the AFD or within the Talk Page of the article for consideration. The article did not at that stage fall within the "Arab/Israeli conflict" scope. This is because the article subject is not notable for her work around Gaza - she has gained any notability she has for her more recent reporting on Syria, which is reflected in the article.
This morning I posted a brief statement here: ARE Cross & directly under the statement of Shrike, who, incidentally, I've never interacted with before. Within 30-40 minutes of me posting my statement, Shrike blanked my user space, concluded that the article of Eva Bartlett fell within the scope of the "Arab/Israeli conflict" (based on what I'd written, not what was actually within the article itself) and followed that with a veiled aspersion about me having had previous user accounts. Here's the sum of their Contributions to Wikipedia for the day.
To be frank, I am more concerned about the motivation behind this editors sudden interest in my edits, my account & the article of Eva Bartlett, than I am about whether I am "allowed" to edit something, or not. -- RebeccaSaid ( talk) 02:15, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Shrike is correct, as WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 clearly forbids editing to any page. There is a single carveout - talkspace for constructive suggestions. Carevout 2 is not an exception, but merely admin discretion on enforcement in article creation ... As to whether the rule should be modified - that's a different matter, but there ain't much point in creating a draft if you can not mainspace it, requiring a proxy editor. Icewhiz ( talk) 22:56, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sir Joseph at 19:55, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
This clause seems to continuously cause issues or concerns and it seems to me that rewriting this to specifically highlight in this manner makes it clearer as to who can and can't edit in this area.
Worm That Turned, see my comments at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#פֿינצטערניש, and those of my non-alter-ego, Doug Weller. I genuinely didn't understand the wording because the Oxford comma is confusing (actually, in my book, just darn wrong) and the wording is poorly drafted. Please bear in mind that we will often need to point this to newbies and people with passion on the topic. Both of those are reasons for crystal clarity. There's more discussion about this on my user talk. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 22:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I can see this suggestion is not going anywhere. However, there is a different sentence in the ARBPIA rulings that does cause confusion and it would be good to have clarification of its meaning. I refer to the sentence "If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit."
that appears in the General 1RR restriction. Consider this sequence: (1) A inserts some text, (2) B removes it. Some time later, (3) C reinserts the text, (4) D removes it, and (5) C reinserts it again less than 24 hours after edit (4). In the plain meaning of the sentence, C can argue that they didn't violate the rule because the "original author" of the text is A and not them. I've seen this from experienced editors at least three times at AE and on multiple occasions that didn't get to AE. A different problem is that the English language does not usually use "author" to refer to someone who makes a deletion, so a sequence deletion, revert, deletion is not clearly covered. Without thinking about it very much, I propose that the sentence be modified as follows: "If an editor makes an edit that is reverted, that editor may not redo the edit within 24 hours of the first revert made to their edit."
Zero
talk 09:44, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
To editor Callanecc: I never said the rule was being gamed. I believe that all or most of the appearances I have seen of this interpretation were made in good faith. I'm not surprised, either, because the wording is objectively misleading. Zero talk 11:59, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Arbs, please see this current AE case for a fine example of how everyone is confused about the meaning of "original author". Zero talk 09:50, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
@ KrakatoaKatie: Please the AE case in my previous sentence. Practically nobody knows what this clause means. Please fix it! Zero talk 12:10, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I second Zero suggestion to make the original author clause more clear.-12:31, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I was asked to comment here by two people. Zero0000 is quite correct that the text is a bit confusing, and it should be amended along the lines they suggest. The AE case cited is a good example of the confusion, though in my opinion, it's a clear-cut violation of the remedy. The problem is that the remedy is bad.
I consider the changing of the wording to be putting a band-aid on a cancer. The fact of the matter is that nobody understands the remedy passed by ArbCom, not the editors, not the admins, not even people who pushed for the remedy in the first place. See the current AE case where I demonstrate this.
The wording ("Option 2" here) should never have been implemented, and I said so at the time. I don't have any confidence that ArbCom will do the right thing, since they have already screwed up multiple times. I may say something more substantial in the future, but that's enough for now. I would prefer a new ARCA where the cancer itself is considered, not just the band-aid. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:55, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by The Rambling Man at 16:10, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
No need for a ban when we don't interact, haven't interacted, one of us is mainly retired, and there's not one iota of evidence that any threat to Wikipedia or any undue incivility will occur. The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:11, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm not retired as TRM asserted, though I have spent less time and energy on this project than I used to. Also, I see no point on appealing the IBAN, considering that he and I were blocked last year for IBAN violation. Since then, I've not interacted with him at all and have no plans to do so at the moment. Furthermore, considering the way he interacts with other editors who are not his friends, not to mention two other AE blocks last year, and another IBAN slapped on him last year, I found myself compelled to leave the IBAN intact for now. George Ho ( talk) 18:29, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by David Tornheim at 23:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
I’m sure it’s not a bad faith edit on Kingofaces43’s part; however, without having the courtesy of notifying me, Kingofaces has prominently mentioned me at this WP:AE discussion.
My question to ArbCom is this: Under the terms of my topic ban in this area, am I allowed to respond to King’s statements regarding me?
King has also prominently mentioned me with regard to my TBAN at this open WP:AN/I discussion. Am I allowed to respond there or somewhere else? Is there an appropriate venue? -- David Tornheim ( talk) 23:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you to all the arbs that have weighed in. I appreciate the feedback. I support the close. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 17:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't think much else needs to be said aside from that this filing or following the AE case is a violation of David's GMO topic ban. That's in part why they weren't pinged or alerted, which considering their topic ban, could have been considered pointy, grave-dancing, baiting, etc. if I had done so. The case also wasn't particularly relevant to David (no new sanctions being imposed on them) aside from me saying here's an example of pretty parallel behavior that got people topic-banned in the topic. People aren't always familiar with the GMO aspersions principle and the history of it, so examples of past issues with it at AE are helpful for admins who haven't followed the topic.
Either way, the topic ban was supposed to keep David out of this topic. I'm not sure why he thinks it would be ok to comment in an AE case on GMOs. If anything, it feels in similar territory as this AE case by another topic-banned editor with the take home message being that topic-banned editors should know better than to involve themselves in GMO DS issues unless it's to appeal their topic ban. We had problems at ANI with David violating their topic ban recently as well as concerns in this ANI thread of vexatious use of admin boards to proxy battleground behavior from the GMO topic. I chose to ignore it at that time after removing their initial topic-ban violation, but if this behavior continues and an admin doesn't call David out for that, it seems like a pretty straightforward subject to bring to AE. This venue's not really needed for that though, so I'm not sure what arbs could say here other than steer clear of the topic if anything. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 00:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
It seems to me that if anyone proposes any kind of sanctions or other actions against David, anywhere, David has every right to respond, anywhere – but that's not what's going on here. Pointing to a past case involving him does not require a response from him; the past case stands unless there is a successful appeal. And there certainly is the appearance that he has been following editors against whom he has a grudge following his GMO topic ban: link. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 01:12, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm frankly shocked that nothing has been done witht David since his first (one-month) block for TBAN violation. He hasn't apparently made any attempt to improve his behaviour, and has been blatantly hounding Jytdog, recently showing up at ANI for the first time in sixteen months for the sole purpose of undermining him in two separate threads. This is obviously revenge for the whole GMO mess, even though Jyt, who was already banned himself in the original case, had nothing to do with David's banning -- that didn't stop him from dancing on Jyt's metaphorical grave during the AE thread that led to his own TBAN, and it doesn't seem to be stopping him now. He has barely contributed anything to the mainspace in at least a year, and seems much more interested in picking fights. (Note that so-called "kombucha" does not appear to fall under GMO, even broadly, so neither Jyt nor David violated a TBAN simply by making edits related to it; my contention is that, by continuing to go after Jytdog as he has been, David is engaging in the same disruption that led to his TBAN, in clear retalliation for the GMO incident several years ago).
Obviously, ARCA is not the best place for me to be bringing this up, as I don't think it quite rises to the level of an ArbCom site ban at this point, but I do think the IDHT regarding his own TBAN, followed by a swift and long block, followed be storming away from the project for the better part of a year, followed by ... [11] (and probably more than a few others), followed by hounding Jytdog, combined with his barely making any noteworthy contributions to the mainspace during this time, I think this probably does rise to the level of some kind of community sanction, perhaps an indef block.
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 09:24, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
No comment on the request for clarification, and I have never been involved in the whole GMO stuff, but as Hijiri and Tryptofish hint above, it may be time to consider a one-way IBan of Davod Tornheim towards Jytdog and Kingofaces (and possibly others who are as yet unmentioned here). Softlavender ( talk) 10:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by Tryptofish at 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
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I would like to ask the Committee how one should understand the following question:
I'm asking this question based on several recent experiences at WP:AE (it doesn't matter which ones). It appears to me that enforcing administrators have become reluctant to get involved in some complaints, when the complaint is not a clear-cut and obvious one. In particular, I have been seeing administrator comments along the lines of "we expect a certain amount of nastiness in topic areas that are highly disputed, so we should just let that go." I realize of course that this is always a case-by-case sort of thing. I suspect that some of this grows out of a concern about backlash against an administrative decision, some out of the fact that there aren't very many admins working at AE, some out of the difficulty of working through tl;dr statements, and some out of the good-faith and very reasonable desire not to sanction someone for simply getting a little hot under the collar.
But I've also long believed (perhaps mistakenly) that part of the idea behind DS is that the Committee has determined that the topic area has become such a problem that there is a need to decisively clamp down on disruptive behavior, and that editors who are properly "aware" are expected not to test the boundaries of acceptable conduct. But I think I've been hearing from some AE admins that they regard conduct that has been chronic and disruptive, way beyond the typical hot under the collar situation, but that is the kind of thing that leads to a wall-of-text at WP:ANI, as suboptimal but acceptable when DS are in effect. So how should admins at AE understand the intention of DS in that regard? -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
This says to me that general community norms are meant to be preserved as much as possible, but when an editor departs from these norms to any degree, there is far less leniency granted.I see that sentence as being at the heart of what I am asking. It sounds to me like, as far as what I called "good behavior" goes, the basic concept of what that is, is the same with or without DS, but when DS are present, it is expected that there will be "far less leniency" for deviations from proper conduct. Is that correct? -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:27, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Acting decisively is one thing; going out on a limb and getting it cut from behind you is another.I think some reassurance that AE admins are supposed to get things up to "normal" – as opposed to just keeping them above rock-bottom – could be beneficial. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Do we know of any research that shows what effects the Arbcom authorization of Discretionary Sanctions has, if any, both positive and negative? Research of this nature could shed some light on whether modifications or clarifications, such as Tryptofish mentions, would be good. The scope of my question is broader than Tryptofish's question, but there is some overlap. I'm not proposing modifications or clarifications, or opposing modifications or clarifications, but I think that a review of research would be beneficial before deciding what next steps to take. -- Pine ✉ 19:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
This is a good clarification question being posed. I have a bit of a followup related to the interplay of DS and ArbCom. When behavior X is a major disruptive issue in the topic, arbs can pass motions as a finding of fact saying it has caused disruption while allowing general DS in the topic or even passing principles or DS specifically saying such behavior is not appropriate instead.
Now when it comes to AE, editors can present such behavior and say ArbCom has said this isn't appropriate. Admins are free to say what degree of sanctions are needed or not, etc. However, when admins say they expect that level of behavior in DS topics or even say they don't think that behavior is a problem, isn't that contradicting ArbCom to a degree? Admins obviously have discretion with discretionary sanctions, but can that discretion contradict ArbCom findings that specific behavior is problem when it comes to these behavior issues Tryptofish is talking about? Kingofaces43 ( talk) 00:55, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
This might be a dumb question (sorry) but can someone point me to a clear definition of exactly what "discretionary sanctions" is or are? This is a very good clarification, Tryptofish. Thank you. Minor 4th 00:32, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I still haven't figured out how/why ArbCom doesn't handle arbitration enforcement - I wonder if doing so would result in better remedies during arbitration. 😉 Gotta wonder why we have this venue for clarification. We elect administrators to use the mop to keep the peace and do necessary janitorial chores around the project, which means that with our admin shortage, they're already overworked and pressed for time. We elect ArbCom to resolve the complex issues that could not be remedied by the community or individual admins, so why is arb enforcement left to the discretion of a single admin? The words of Opabinia regalis still reverberate regarding an issue brought to this noticeboard because it was too complex for AE: ..."too complex for AE" means "too complex for self-selected volunteers who aren't actually obliged to do fuck all", whereas "too complex for ARCA" means "too complex for the people who specifically volunteered for and were elected to deal with complex problems and are as obliged to do things as anybody can be in an internet hobby". We can thank our lucky stars that we have a good share of excellent admins and arbitrators and that complex matters don't have to be judged by a single admin who serves as both our judge & jury. I think arb remedies/DS should always be handled by a minimum of three admins, and the three should rotate every quarter. My apologies for being so critical, but the entire process just doesn't seem to be very efficient, and we're losing good editors as a result. Atsme ✍🏻 📧 02:27, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by Obsidi at 12:00, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
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I have a question concerning the principles ArbCom has established concerning WP:Casting aspersions. As this isn't a policy or guideline, this seemed the best place to clarify such decisions. My question is, does this only apply when a specific editor is named or implied? Obviously given the context in which the words are stated, it may be clear who they are WP:Casting aspersions on, and in such a case that cannot be allowed. But the problem I see with not allowing people to discuss such misbehavior more generically is that it stifles discussion concerning generalized problems with Wikipedia's processes in general.
For instance, if I say "there are a lot of bullies on the noticeboards." Saying a specific person is being a bully repeatedly without bringing them to a noticeboard and providing evidence of that would be WP:Casting aspersions. But at the same time, there may in fact be a lot of bullies on the noticeboards and yet it may not rise to the level of seriousness where sanctions are justified (and so bringing them before an appropriate noticeboard and accusing them of that would be futile).
Additionally I may wish to discuss such a problem so we can devise a solution to "there being a lot of bullies on the noticeboards." But how can I do this if I cannot even discuss the very problems that I wish to fix?
For these reasons, I am of the opinion that WP:Casting aspersions was properly limited to named or where it could reasonably be inferred who the person was talking about. But in the context of a recent block, another editor disagreed [19]. This isn't about that specific block (or whether the block is appropriate, or the conditions for unblock). But just a question of what the rules are. In re-reading WP:Casting aspersions, I noticed that it was somewhat ambiguous on this topic and so I could hardly blame the other editor for coming to this conclusion. So I am asking for clarification.
It may be that my connecting Michael Hardy's non-specific broadly generalized charges about "corruption", "bullies", "cliques" and "dishonesty" on the Noticeboards to WP:Casting aspersions will be a step too far for some, but I continue to think that it's close enough to the spirit of CA to justify the connection. It hardly matters, though, since the Fourth Pillar specifies that "Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility," and it can hardly be said that Hardy making such wild accusations about unspecified parties is either civil or collegial. If there is corruption, bullying, cliquishness, and dishonesty, it needs to be dealt with, but the only way that can happen is by the presentation of specific evidence about specific editors. Hardy's steadfast refusal to do so seems to me to be in direct opposition to what the Fourth Pillar stands for, besides being disruptive and not at all the kind of behavior that I, at least, expect from an admin. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 02:20, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
It would be unwise to apply CA to general statements about the Wikipedia editing population or some segment thereof, or even more generally about human nature and its effects on Wikipedia editing. Those discussions are important and meaningful, even occasionally useful. And I've never seen anybody apply CA to that type of comments, including quite a few I've made myself.
I think the essential difference is whether the comments arise from the whole of one's Wikipedia experience or from a specific situation. My exposure to the MH saga was limited, but my impression is that his remarks were more of the latter type, and CA applies. As for what BMK meant in the comment linked by the OP, BMK can (and, I expect, will) speak for himself. ― Mandruss ☎ 12:29, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree that clarity is needed to help eliminate the inconsistencies in admin actions that may range from no action at all to indef t-bans or blocks, and everything else in between - all of which depends on who the admin and subject editor happen to be at the time. An occasional *sigh* at the end of a sentence may be misconstrued as belittling which is an aspersion whereas profanity shouted in anger may be excused. Is telling someone their comment is full of bologna an aspersion? Do insults count as aspersions - could a joke be thought of as an aspersion? Why are aspersions actionable and not outbursts of profanity? Perhaps examples should be provided as a gage to determine what is considered (1) intolerable aspersions that are blockable, (2) borderline aspersions that require a warning, and (3) not an aspersion. Having clarity and a gage to judge by may help to eliminate potential unwarranted actions or incidents where no action was taken because of uncertainty. It is clear that casting aspersions must be accompanied by diffs but more emphasis needs to be placed on the fact that the provided diffs must clearly support the claim, and it should apply to all editors & admins who participate at AE, AN, AN/I and wherever else aspersions may be an actionable behavioral issue. If the diffs are found to not support the allegations, then a boomerang is in order, and the latter really needs to be included in the clarification. I think it will help eliminate some of the cases we're seeing now that are based on casting aspersions. Atsme ✍🏻 📧 17:51, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Like Atsme, I feel that there is a lot of undefined territory here. As I see it, a lot of the difficulty comes out of the community's lack of broad consensus as to what constitutes incivility (and of course there is a limit to how far ArbCom should get ahead of the community). It looks to me like the community has low tolerance for new or unregistered editors saying incivil stuff, but is willing to make way too many (in my opinion) excuses when an established and net-positive user says something incivil. I feel like I'm seeing much more anger in discussions than I would like to see. As for aspersions specifically, I would suggest that ArbCom look at it in terms of where a particular conduct does or does not disrupt editing.
As I see it, saying that other editors are taking a position because they hold a particular belief should not be considered an aspersion. If I say "I think you feel strongly about X, and that's why you want to edit the page that way", although it's true that I am commenting on another editor's motivations, that's not something that we should disallow. It can be a necessary part of some discussions.
But if I say "I think you are incompetent, and that's why you made that edit", that is an aspersion and a personal attack. The difference is I'm not talking about the other editor's point of view, but about their personal characteristics.
And saying without clear evidence "I think you are editing that way because you are acting on behalf of X" is also an aspersion, and one with a history. The last case linked by the OP here was the GMO case: [21]. And this is a history that needs to be understood. Prior to the case, it had become common for editors to say things like "Editors are trying to sanitize this page because Wikipedia is full of shills acting on behalf of Monsanto". It became such a problem that it led to significant findings in that case. After the case, editors who were not already topic banned realized that they had better not say "shill" anymore, so they started dancing around it by saying things like "Editors are acting together to keep all criticism of Monsanto off this page". And here is the reason why that is still an aspersion, in a way that "Editors want to have more negative content about GMOs" is not. It goes beyond asserting that other editors have a particular POV, to where there is the implication, without evidence, of conduct that violates policy. We have policies against undeclared paid editing, and the aspersion is that some editors are violating those policies, above and beyond just having a POV. And it doesn't matter if the aspersion is framed in general instead of identifying a particular editor by name. It's still something that should be considered an aspersion, and it is something that can be highly disruptive. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:14, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
It does seem as though aspersions are in the eye of the beholder. As such, there is wild inconsistency in enforcement, which leads to the problem of editors not really having proper notice of where there boundaries are. I think that most policies and guidelines on Wiki are interpreted and applied this way, however. Minor 4th 00:42, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: In your example, it seems you only dealt with part of the analysis (perhaps because that is the direct issue). I'm sure you are aware, but 'no aspersions' is only part of the fuzzy 'code of conduct', if you will, see eg, WP:AGF. So, leaping to 'paid' should be avoided, especially when nothing even suggests paid is involved, and we are dealing with multiple people from multiple places/life experiences, who are bound to say things differently. Seems a better way if you want to explore it, would be to ask honest good faith questions (eg. non-accusatory), before assuming anything. Especially so, since 'you said others were paid', could itself fall into 'aspersion' territory. -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 17:40, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
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Initiated by Beeblebrox at 20:48, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
The 2016 committee decided a “reminder” was a sufficient remedy in this case. That reminder has clearly failed to have the desired effect as disruption in this area has continued and taken much time and resources from the community. The remedy reminds Michael Hardy that “Administrators are expected to set an example with their behavior, including refraining from incivility and responding patiently to good-faith concerns about their conduct, even when those concerns are expressed suboptimally.” and the finding of fact upon wich this remedy was based, [22] reads, in part, that “(Michael Hardy) has perpetuated the dispute with his own actions. Hardy has assumed bad faith of the editors criticizing his behavior and failed to drop the stick.” If he was failing to drop the stick two years ago, and is still causing disruption in this exact same area even after a full arbitration case by now it must at least be failure to drop a limb or a tree trunk. Here is the recent AN thread [23] a village pump thread [24] and a recent thread at Jimbotalk [25]. Hardy’s talk page and block log also contain relevant material showing that this is part of the same issue as the previous full case.
I would suggest that this sort of behavior is unbecoming of an administrator, and for failing to heed this warning, Michael Hardy be removed as an administrator. I would stress that I am not alleging tool misuse but rather a clear, prolonged unwillingness or inability to abide by expected standards of admin behavior, as outlined in the committee’s previous decision. I believe the community has failed itself by not bringing this forward sooner, allowing the committee to sit on it’s hands and do nothing while all this disruption has gone on in project space.
(To be clear, I am automatically listed as a party due to filing this request but I have had no involvement whatsoever in the current dispute and cycle of blocking and unblocking. I am including those admins as parties here as I’m sure they will each have their own opinions to proffer)
To those who seem to think I wish to re-litigate the recent AN thread and the assosciated blocks: I do not. Whether he shoud have been blocked for his behavior was addressed by the community, and it seems, finally, to have made up its mind. What I am looking to do is assess whether Hardy should still be an admin, which is the exclusive purview of the committee and it has already ruled once on his behavior in this specific topic area and how it reflects on his continued membership in the admin corps. I might have done this sooner but I was camping for the last week and when I came back and saw the drama had continued but it still hadn’t been brought here as it should’ve been. Arbcom doesn’t go looking for cases and requests even if it is well aware of the issues, somebody has to bring it to them, and nobody else seemed like they were going to do it.
I may be pressing the word limit now, but in answers to “why now” I would again suggest that this is what should’ve been done to begin with, as there was already a full case on this exact issue. I was unavailable at the time the AN thread was closed and the unblocking occured and looking at the closde thread I was surprised to find that seemingly it hadn’t occured to anyone that this was already Arbcom’s problem since they issued a ruling on this editor’s behavior in this specific topic area previously, and also the issue of conduct unbecoming an admin is not an issue the community is equipped to deal with, only the committee is. His fitness as an editor is not the topic here, only how his behavior reflects on his staus as an admin, which he was explicitly warned about by this committee.
If I had not been completely blindsided by learning of the existence of the corruption, dishonesty, and bullying that is the dominant behavior of the Administrators' Noticeboards, I would have conducted myself differently in the recent events. However, there is no reason for me to recant or apologize for allegations of dishonesty, corruption, and bullying. And those are accusations, not "personal attacks". There are accusations against me on this present page, and no one is calling those "personal attacks" or "insults". That discrepancy is in itself dishonest. It is a fact that on Administrators' Noticeboards and like venues, there are unstated unadmitted pecking orders, and those who rank high in that unacknowledged system, and their sycophants and other supporters, have de-facto licenses to accuse others without being accused of "personal attacks" or "insults", while others who make accusations of the same kinds, myself obviously included, are accused of "personal attacks" and when making assertions that are factually correct or factually incorrect and that are in fact accusations. And that situation does not scratch the surface of the deep corruption in such forums. I don't even have any idea how to collect sycophants and it has never occurred to me to wish to do so, but as we see, some are masters of that art.
One thing I find disturbing that I have not yet commented on is an exchange with Alex Shih. I said that nobody had attempted to explain why allegations are not libelous, that say that the only reason why professors at respected universities use the standard terminology of their fields in public is to create a false impression of legitimacy. Alex Shih responded that many people had explained that to me. When asked for diffs, he linked to the very page on which many had refused to explain that, plus a page on which another user, Guy Macon, had asserted that meetings at which professors present their research findings to each other are "unquestionably highly lucrative", at best an implausible statement, and therefore those professors are dishonest. I can only wonder if Alex Shih was paying attention to what he wrote.
(I actually suspect Guy Macon of honesty, which his followers seem to lack, since he was willing to attempt to give some comprehensible reason for his position. But he has not found out that meetings at which professors present their research findings to each other are not the same thing as marketing fad diets to the public, nor that such meetings are a standard practice among academics.)
Possibly I will file an ArbCom case, but that may be too expensive. I will probably want to be advise in the matter by counsel who is thoroughly familiar ArbCom proceedings. This is an important matter. If I do that, I may or may not include some mention of the
I asked "NewYorkBrad" in an email if there is some rational grounds for confidence in the integrity and competence of the Arbitration Committee. Some time later he has not replied. Michael Hardy ( talk) 18:07, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Is this a "live case or controversy"? I thought it had finally died down? Guy ( Help!) 21:35, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
My thoughts are as follows:
I don't have any strong opinions on what to happen next, but this is simply the current state of affairs as I see it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:21, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Michael Hardy was indefinitely blocked for, essentially, repeatedly complaining about a group of editors who responded to a complaint he made here, and refusing to drop the stick about it. For reasons I explained in my assessment here and here, the treatment MH received was very unfair and problematic, so much so that I apologized to him on behalf of AN. Myself and a group of other admins eventually negotiated an unblock in which Michael agreed to not bring it up anymore. We let him have the last word, and he appears to have moved on since then, with no further issues. I have no idea why someone would try to rehash this all now, days after the situation had been reasonably resolved. There was no significant offense here, just some very human righteous indignation.
Beeblebrox, I’m only passing through, having seen the link elsewhere, so I can’t comment on the situation here, but I think I’m right in saying that little will happen without diffs to show the behaviour you outline. Cheers - SchroCat ( talk) 21:14, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
This seems like picking at a fresh scab, Beeb. I'd have waited to see what happens now that the recent troubles appear to have died down. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 21:18, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
No. Michael Hardy validly complained about AN/ANI, refused to stop complaining about AN/ANI, and was blocked by AN/ANI. Perhaps instead AN/ANI ought to be "reminded". Paul August ☎ 22:04, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
I absolutely agree Micheal should be desysopped for their behaviour but the drama's died down and they've finally dropped the stick so in my eyes the best course of action would be to leave them be and if they start again then Arb is (or should be) the first port of call. I just don't see the point in rehashing it all out again. – Davey2010 Talk 22:13, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
This is a model of poor AN behavior, and it is so because of the ad hominem of which Michael Hardy was the victim, in the form of 'Because it is you, Michael Hardy . . .'. So, it is AN that is in need of reminding that WP:CIV explicitly seeks to prevent bringing up the past in such a manner (" it is as unacceptable to attack a user who has a history of foolish or boorish behaviour, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user"). Alanscottwalker ( talk) 22:27, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, Michael should have been desysopped during the period of chaos that resulted from his persistent personal attacks on other editors (his actions were clearly not in keeping with anyone who holds advanced permissions), but this seems like a strange time to be bringing a case now, when everything has died down and Michael has promised not to repeat his actions. Obviously, if such editing were to reoccur, a desysopping would be a slam dunk, but I'd like to think that we'd give someone a chance to show they can carry on with their (obviously positive) editing without such an issue happening again. Black Kite (talk) 23:13, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Since the fuss, MH has edited 38 articles and one DYK and has made no mention of the excitement that I can see. Picking at the scab is most undesirable. There has been no suggestion that admin tools have been misused so removing them would be pointless. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:31, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
As one who was trying to de-escalate the latest fracas, I simply want to offer my opinion that Ritchie333's statement is an accurate and fair account of what happened, and his opinion that "A significant amount of disruption and drama would go away if people just left Michael alone" is sound. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 06:55, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I think "staleness" can matter in some cases. The crucial distinction that I think exists here is that Michael Hardy is not accused of any misuse of the admin tools, nor is there any substantial cause for concern that he will abuse them going forward. This is, rather, just a "conduct unbecoming" case (and having looked at what happened, Michael Hardy is not the only one whose conduct was not the greatest). If Michael (and everyone else) really will drop the matter, then it's over with and nothing further is needed. If he doesn't intend to do that, desysopping won't prevent him from raising it again anyway. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I was one of the parties in the case referenced. I'm of the opinion that the way MH was handled most recently was the best way to do it: When he throws a fit about something, block him until he agrees to stop throwing a fit about it, then unblock him so he can continue editing. This is, IMHO, an editor who's behavior needs managing, but who contributes quite usefully to the project. So let's just handle the behavior and let him keep contributing. Note that my value judgement of the behavior would read very differently, but since we're not here to teach adulting lessons, we should focus on what helps the project. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:48, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I commend Michael Hardy for speaking the truth about the double-standards and other serious long-standing problems at Wikipedia at Jimbo's page, even if he goes overboard with hyperbole. The numerous attempts to silence him (via multiple A/N and ArbCom filings, warnings, and blocks) for raising legitimate concerns is sickening: It confirms exactly what he has been saying about bullying--bullying to silence him. His accusers can run circles around him with filings like this taunting him and and provoking him into restating his concerns about being bullied, but somehow that is okay.
He did, in fact, promise to stop talking about these problems--something he should never have been required to do. I see the opening of this ArbCom amendment as an open invitation for him to restate his concerns about the double-standards.
I agree with those who have stated that there are problems on "both sides". If we can agree on that, we might get somewhere.
What we need is more uniform application of civility rules, which I did see with a recent revert and block by Boing!_said_Zebedee.
-- David Tornheim ( talk) 01:41, 27 September 2018 (UTC)