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Initiated by ResultingConstant at 15:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
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Does the WP:ARBAPDS DS covering "post-1932 politics of the US" cover only narrowly "politics" (eg, politicians, laws, elections, etc) or more broadly, all events/movements which had political impact (for example, gun violence, race relations, LGBT issues, etc)
Specifically, I am raising this clarification request, because I just gave a DS alert to someone regarding Emmett Till, regarding an ongoing RFC and an ongoing (mostly acceptable) dispute/debate regarding the lead. But after giving the alert, I realized it is ambiguous as to if the Till article would actually be subject to the AP DS or not.
I can see strong arguments in either direction, certainly many of the "broad" topics had very great impacts on politics and had very obvious political linkages, but a broad interpretation risks putting basically all of US history, culture, current events etc under DS, as almost everything had some political impacts.
Per the "Collect" case, it would seem there is some precedent for the "broad" interpretation :
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Collect_and_others This case is focused on a broad topic and will examine allegations of misconduct within the American Politics topic, which – for the purposes of this case – also includes the Tea Party Movement topic and any United States-related overlaps with the Gun Control topic.
I am not linking the target of the alert here, because I don't consider them a "party" to an issue as of yet, as I am just asking for clarification, but if I need to link them, please let me know ResultingConstant ( talk) 15:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems obvious (to me at least) that page would need to have some disruption that would benefit from discretionary sanctions. Once that has occurred, I thought the admin moderating the disruption would place the page under DS and log it as a discretionary sanction. I've seen pages where editors have randomly placed the banner but absent an admin logging the page, it's not under DS. For an AP2 page sanction, I'd expect the admin logging the page to point to the discussion that was unproductive, intransigent or disruptive and also about American Politics. No page is inherently covered by any sanction but many quickly demonstrate its necessity. The presumption should be that page does not need DS protection until proven otherwise and the connection to an arbcom case should be obvious from the nature of the disruption/dispute. -- DHeyward ( talk) 01:17, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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Initiated by Beeblebrox at 00:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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Doncram: Motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram (suspended) So, this restriction was suspended for six months, but that six months was up nearly six months ago. We got a third-party request at
WP:PERM to consider re-granting Doncram the Autopatrolled right that was revoked in the early days of this dispute. Since it's unclear if he is still under an editng restriction (it's still listed at
WP:RESTRICT) it is equally unclear if we should consider re-granting this user permission.
My apologies I seem to have misread some time stamps, and additionally the listing at RESTRICT, upon further examination, actually says this did expire on May 5th of last year, so that didn't help either. While we do routinely grant autopatrolled based on third-party requests, if Doncram doesn't actually want us to there's probably no point to this. I'm not sure if I should just remove this, or let a clerk do it? Beeblebrox ( talk) 02:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
I was notified of the auto-patrol nomination and, just now, of this ARCA. This doesn't need to be an ARCA; it is not worth discussing.
P.S. Beetlebrox denied the auto-patrol request already, before opening this here, if I am reading time-stamps correctly. There's nothing open. It may be that Beetlebrox wants for there to be some new community discussion about me before auto-patrol right is granted, but I would think that does not need to come to the arbitration committee. I give up, anyhow. -- do ncr am 01:44, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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Initiated by NeilN at 05:39, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
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Many articles and talk pages contain information about discretionary sanctions authorized by arbcom and the "rules" governing the editing of articles. These templates may have been designed by one or many editors and arbcom members and placed by a wide variety of admins on numerous articles. I wish to get clarification on what is the proper process for changing the text on these widely used templates. The situation arose [ here]. Is this a matter for admins or does arbcom want to get involved? It is my feeling that we should at least try to limit the number of templates used in an area to minimize editor confusion.
Um, anyone awake here? Or has my clarification request sent you all into a deep state of meditation from where you will emerge and impart the solution for all the issues surrounding discretionary sanctions (crosses fingers)? I have a couple more potential clarification requests that are waiting until this one has some responses. -- NeilN talk to me 05:25, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
I am too frustrated right now to comment. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Using templates for article-level discretionary sanctions gives rise to several problems, which is why I have never used them or engaged in the enforcement of the respective sanctions:
Consequently, ArbCom should amend its procedures to clarify that either
An additional problem is that I have always have had doubts that sanctions contained in talk page templates are even enforceable, because there is no guarantee that any specific editor has even looked at the talk page before making an edit. Even if the template is part of the edit notice, there will be cases where it is not seen, e.g. in the case of edits through WP:AWB or similar tools, or perhaps through the mobile interface. Moreover, even if the editor has seen the template, they often lack the individual notification required per WP:AC/DS#Awareness and therefore cannot be sanctioned even if they violate the template's restrictions. This would support the case of deprecating talk page sanction templates altogether and go back to the practice of applying restrictions to individual editors on their talk page. Sandstein 07:05, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Cowboy AC/DS templates need to end. ArbCom specifies available sanctions and the template should be created at the end of the case. If they need to be "ammended", we have ARCA. Rather than deal with fallout after the blocks/bans/etc based on some admins unique application of a new sanction accompanied by their special template, ARBCOM needs to adopt these templates. As an extreme example, I, a non-admin, can create a template for an article, specify an arbitrary rule and post it on a page and there will be editors and admins willing to enforce it. We've been in a similar place where som draconian restrictions where placed on a talk page and editors were blocked with neither warning or understanding because of an overzealous admin. This stuff needs to stop. -- DHeyward ( talk) 05:02, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Yesterday I saw this edit at the Hillary Clinton talk page. I saw a problem (explained below), and was still wondering how and where to attempt to address this. As this thread has opened at ARCA it seems like this is the right venue.
What kind of a confusing language is this??? Moderate sanctions can not be applied without prior warning while ultimate sanctions (say indef block) can be applied with no questions asked? And the heavier sanction procedure is only explained in the "small print" (not literally small print, but a hidden section is kind of the small print of such "Warning" banner on a talk page)
I'd like to invite Arbs to not go at this as something where the involved parties have to be dealt with sanctions, but rather think in the direction of procedures on how to compose and publish such Warning banners. I suppose both Neil and Coffee acted in the project's best interests, in a commendable way.
I understand that part of the problem probably is that the content of such warnings is composed of remedies that were decided in parts in different ArbCom cases, ARCA filings, and whatnot that decided all of which can be applied to a high profile article such as Clinton's. But such Warning banners should present an harmonised text (i.e. WITHOUT INTERNAL CONTRADICTIONS): e.g., if certain sanctions can be applied without warning, list these sanctions unambiguously; conversely, if all sanctions can be applied without warning, then don't make the banner text unnecessarily long by first giving the impression that warnings are mandatory before a sanction can be applied and then overriding that provision in the "small print".
In short, ArbCom should vet such banner texts before they are published on the talk pages of articles that are by their very nature already quite contentious.
Another suggestion is about style and readability: I'd like to see the text of such Warning banners concise and as accessible as possible to editors that may have a limited command of the English language. There's one aspect of having a text that is legalistically without loopholes, and another to not use stolid legalistic language that may make the intended audience stop reading for being intransigent mumbo-jumbo (e.g. "... may levy ..." – "levy"?? who uses that kind of word when addressing a community of volunteer editors?).
So apart from Arbs vetting the content of such Warning messages, I suggest they seek assistance from style experts for formulating the warning in fluent not-too-high-profile English. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:59, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
The Committee should focus on the overall issue rather than this specific situation. The big question that the Committee should address is how templates that document sanctions may operate. I believe this is a relatively new development, and I've seen no guidelines on this so far. A few specific points in need of clarification:
I'm generally of the opinion that substitution is preferable, especially when you didn't create the template yourself. It sidesteps the problems of unilaterally changing the sanctions of other admins who unexpectedly use a sanctions template you created. I'd also prefer to see a talk page message required on affected articles to change sanctions, in fairness to those expected to abide by the altered restrictions. The important thing here is pinning down the answers to these questions, though, whatever they may be. ~ Rob13 Talk 13:55, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by OccultZone at 14:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm no longer nearly as active as I used to be, but I did notice this request. I've looked back at the past case and refreshed my memory - and on the whole, I would like to see OccultZone unbanned. He was a highly prolific editor who added significantly to Wikipedia.
Unfortunately, he didn't know where to let things go and move on - the term "obsession" used by OccultZone above does indeed summarise my view of his behaviour. He's had a significant period to break that obsession, and if indeed he has been off-wiki for that period - I absolutely support a return to editing.
My only suggestion would be to put some sort of prohibition about adminshopping, and maybe a couple of other restrictions against some of the other areas highlighted in the arbcom case. These should be time limited, to help OccultZone ease back into editing. That said, I would support his return with or without restriction. WormTT( talk) 10:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I quite agree with WormTT. There are already restrictions in place from the case that would still apply should OccultZone return, and if it can be crafted, a "shopping" prohibition might not be a bad idea either. But I think OccultZone is not irredeemable, but is a good person who made some very bad decisions. Since to all indications OccultZone has ceased socking and respected the ban, I certainly hope that's a positive sign that better decisions will be coming in the future. I think it's worth a try. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Not much to add, save that I endorse the comments by Worm That Turned and Seraphimblade. I'm hopeful that OZ's behaviour in the summer of 2015 was an anomaly that won't be repeated and so I'd support an unban (with the other two restrictions remaining in place). Yunshui 雲 水 12:24, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
As per Worm and Seraphimblade, I would like to see OZ's ban lifted. There is no evidence presented that he has attempted to circumvent his ban, and has thereby demonstrated his ability to abide by the ARBCOM decision. The appeal shows CLUE regarding what went haywire, and how this editor will deal with it going forward. OZ is a productive editor who lost the way, time to welcome them back to the "straight and narrow". The restrictions proposed by Worm make sense. 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 15:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with the statements above, but I would like to see a commitment from OZ regarding SPI. If he files a sockpuppetry case, he will need to abide by the decisions of the clerks, CUs, and/or patrolling administrators. Considering his statement, I don't expect that this would crop up again, but an acknowledgement would alleviate some concerns. — DoRD ( talk) 17:46, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
strongly disagreewith what, and what does your anti-paid editing crusade have to do with OZ's unban request? — DoRD ( talk) 19:07, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
I had very little direct interaction with OZ whom I always saw as a prolific contributor who was sometimes unable to drop the stick. However, I had substantial interactions with BladesMulti, an account blocked as a sock of OZ that had substantial behavioral issues, including edit-warring, and NPOV related issues. I can provide further evidence if needed. Since it has been three years, I don't think this precludes a lifting of the ban, but I think this is something Arbcom should look into, and possibly leave certain restrictions in place with respect to these issues. I'd suggest a 1RR restriction.
Furthermore, there are some unresolved issues with respect to another account, namely AmritasyaPutra, who was initially blocked as an OZ sock, later (as I understand it) unblocked after a BASC appeal, and then blocked again for socking on his own account. Now if the first block was, in fact, a false positive, then this is no barrier to OZ being unblocked. But (and I realize some of this information probably is private, and cannot be shared outside the committee) some clarity about this might be nice: because the last AP sock was in fact blocked three months ago, and the previous one not too long before that. Vanamonde ( talk) 18:08, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Editor indef-blocked; commentary irrelevant. Drmies ( talk) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
It is not clear to me why this edit was made by the user with that edit summary and what their connection with User:Natalinasmpf is. Their next edit was cryptic. Hence I oppose the unbanning of this editor who appears to be a component of the very long term abusive 'Natalinasmpf' sock /paid-editing team who are unredeemable and still hugely active on Wikipedia. Inlinetext ( talk) 16:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
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Having refreshed my memory of this case, I think the time has come to allow OZ a conditional to return to editing. The conditions being the topic ban and one account restrictions remaining in place, and a restriction on forum shopping being added. For the latter, perhaps something like:
OccultZone may not:
OccultZone is not restricted from:
As usual with things I suggest it is probably possible to simplify this! Thryduulf ( talk) 15:19, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Vanamonde93: I agree that would be a good idea. Doug Weller seems to have been the arb who has most recently looked at this, so hopefully they will comment on whether the OZ and AmritasyaPutra SPIs should be separated or not. Thryduulf ( talk) 10:11, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Blades is responsible for the besmirching of my otherwise virgin block log, and at the request of an arbiter who hasn't signed their comment below, I thought I might note that these socks have coloured my editing behaviour since that time. Blades went from being incompetent in English overnight to having reasonable ability when I started challenging him at
Ayurveda, and we received a minor block at the same time, after the events described in the link to BladesTalk where I am involved below. I never expected to see Blades or the editor known as blades back at his tricks again. I am no longer optimistic.
Roxy the dog.
bark 13:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Sock of Inlinetext. Ks0stm ( T• C• G• E) 19:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
@ Vanamonde93: The missing link for this discussion is that this is a secret digital meatpuppet army of RSS workers on Wikipedia who are networked through fronts like the Ramakrishna Mission, seminaries like Vivekananda Institute of Human Excellence (admin check delete log), and edits and ivotes are coordinated through facebook messenger, whatsapp. Here is the reliable link. Many of its members are with the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the account passwords are shared so you get non-Indian IPs mixed with IPs from India, and situations where accounts use broken English in one edit, switch to decent English and then revert to form. They have figured out Wikipedia so they maintain multiple good hand / bad hand accounts which argue both sides of the debate to rig it. But I'm not telling you anything new am I ? Smasnugget ( talk) 18:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC) |
I have seen that main account's conduct is generally taken into consideration while socks are ignored because a user's attitude can be different on every sock account they use. Best response to socking and its consequences was the site ban that he is still abiding.
Of the diffs you provided @ Doug Weller: one diff was from January 2014, 2nd diff is not working and last one came after violating 0RR on a article that is already rid of 0RR rule, here Bladesmulti was blocked and unblocked along with some other editors. [2] [3] It also seems that he made no edits on any article with this sock during final 2 months, [4] except one which involved removal of unsupported attributions and a spam link.
Few articles where I have been interested since first day were also edited OZ and his edits of any accounts remains there to this day because they were useful. He has not evaded site ban and it should cease any possibility of further topic ban, see WP:PUNITIVE. I further agree with Opabinia regalis, that entire case emerged from rape in India subject, it is sensible to maintain topic ban over it.
Like others told, OZ is a good contributor and also to the South Asian articles area which is regularly disrupted by spammers, harassment socks and edit warriors and they return anytime they see inactivity of other contributors, and that's the thing usually forces me to keep checking the articles, having OZ's presence would be advantageous. D4iNa4 ( talk) 03:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I was the editor who mentored Bladesmulti (see User talk:Bladesmulti/Mentorship, and Amritasha Putra; this "discussion", which presents a nice overview of sockpuppets, may serve as a reminder that the mentoring was not exactly succesfull, and the efforts on my part were not met with an equally repricocal attitude by Bladesmulti. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Just saw I was pinged here by now indeffed editor. Nonetheless it's good, I support unban.
I agree with Doug Weller's suggestion to put 6 months topic ban from South Asia, there should be a time limit since he never had a topic ban before.
Noting the broadness of 6 months ban from South Asia, this topic ban should supersede the active topic ban on crimes in South Asia (often known as Indian subcontinent). I don't find any sense in current topic ban because OccultZone used no socks on Rape in India and present version of the article is same as his preferred version. I should note that Indian subcontinent is bigger than just India. On all of his accounts, he had only one block more than 3 years ago for violating WP:3RR [5] on all his accounts, rest of the blocks were overturned, sometimes as unwarranted, and none of his accounts ever had a block unrelated to India that's why 1RR restriction is not an option as well. Capitals00 ( talk) 15:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Taking the pedantry even further...
@
Callanecc and
Thryduulf: Suggest: "Raising any issue at more than one venue, whatever those venues are (with the exception of bringing a case or clarification/amendment request to ArbCom)." -
Ryk72
'c.s.n.s.' 00:17, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The indefinite siteban of OccultZone ( talk · contribs) imposed in remedy 1 of the "OccultZone and others" arbitration case is rescinded with the following restrictions:
These restrictions may be appealed to the Committee in no less than six months.
Enacted - Mini apolis 16:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Zero0000 at 06:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
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The motion passed on Dec 26, 2016 begins, with my sentence numbering added:
Since the act of restoring a reverted edit will most commonly be a revert itself, it is unclear whether sentence (c) applies to it. The relevant (very common) scenario is like this:
I'm sure the community would consider action (3) to be law-abiding, but a literal reading of the motion does not support that assumption. The problem is that sentence (c) refers only to the revert limit and not to the requirement to get consensus. I suggest that sentence (c) be replaced by something like "Edits made to enforce the General Prohibition are exempt from the revert limit and the requirement to obtain consensus."
Note that if sentence (c) is read as not applying to the need for consensus, then a non-30/500 editor can cause major disruption to article development by reverting legitimate editors, which is contrary to the purpose behind the introduction of the 30/500 restriction. Thanks. Zero talk 06:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
About the need for consensus. I am writing with 15 years of experience in the IP area, 12 of them as administrator. I can tell you as a fact: this new rule as it is being interpreted will be a mill-stone around the neck of every good editor working in the IP area. Please don't get bogged down in discussing one particular incident; what is important is the future application of the rule.
There are two major problems that I'll spell out one at a time.
1. The rule massively increases the power of a revert in the hands of a disruptive editor. No obligation at all is placed on the reverter—not to explain the revert or even to take part in the "consensus forming" that is compulsory for everyone else. Disruptive reverters have never had such power before, and they will use it.
2. No time limit is specified for the need for consensus. A literal reading of the rule is that for each edit we have to search the article history, right back to article creation if necessary, to see if we are undoing a revert. Presumably nobody would be punished for undoing a five-year's old revert, but what about one year, one month, one week? It is a granted that admins at AE won't agree on what timeout is reasonable. Editors need to be able to tell with reasonable certainty whether they are acting within the rules, but the current wording does not enable that.
Nobody from the IP area asked for this rule. Since the very purpose of rules is to assist good-faith editors to write great articles, I put it to you that this rule is not a good one. Thank you for reading. Zero talk 00:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Shrike: Noticeboards like RSN and NPOV often don't end with a clear consensus, and they hardly ever bring fresh editors to article talk pages. They usually just attract regulars who express completely predictable opinions. And who gets to decide when consensus has been reached? Editors who think that some admin will agree there was no consensus will take the opportunity to punish their opponents by taking them to AE. You know that because you already did it. Zero talk 08:09, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
To editor Opabinia regalis: I don't know that anyone has read the "Editors are limited to one revert" in the first sentence as meaning anything except "Each editor is limited to one revert". It isn't the problem that caught Huldra. So if that's what you mean, I don't see how it would help. All good editors in the IP area love the 1RR rule. We also love the brilliant 50/300 rule, which has greatly reduced the labor of keeping good articles good. The problem is with the next sentence "In addition, editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit" which is a disaster and nothing at all like what Huldra asked for. I've tried to explain why it is bad above. Some people around here have the idea that the IP area is rotten and needs to be fixed by wielding a big stick. The truth is that the area has never been better. The last thing we need is a rule that leaves good editors not knowing whether the edit they want to make will get them blocked or not. Please remove it. Zero talk 08:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
To editor Opabinia regalis: Yes, you are correct that the sentence is similar to a comment Huldra made before, quite different from her initial request. I think her comment was a mistake, unusually for her, but I'm more concerned with what will work. The sentence means that one editor can bring editing to a halt without even giving a reason, then nobody else will know when editing can resume because the group will not agree on when consensus has been achieved. Zero talk 23:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
To editor BU Rob13: The fact that you think the rule worked in one case has no bearing on how it will "work" in general. Why not try to answer some of the objections? Zero talk 23:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: Your reply mostly consists of misrepresenting my, and others', position and I will only respond to one point: You claim: "you've also argued that admins can't exercise common sense (blocking someone for re-adding something that was reverted years ago)". My response: Nonsense. My objection is that admins will not agree where the boundary lies and we shouldn't have to wait until we are taken to AE before knowing if an edit will get us blocked or not. If I want to gamble, I prefer Las Vegas. Just add a time limit to that sentence and the problem is gone; easy. Zero talk 00:09, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Number 57: I'm confused by the logic of your latest statement. If one "side" has all the numbers then surely that side has the upper hand in "consensus forming" and so would be advantaged by a rule that requires consensus. You yourself argued against holding an RfC on those grounds. Now you allege that the side with the numbers wants to remove the need for consensus as it is not to their advantage. Are you not trying to have it both ways? Zero talk 01:11, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
To editor WJBscribe: We editors in the IP area are not naughty children who need to be brought into line. Almost all of the regulars spend more time on the talk page than in article space already, whenever there is the slightest disagreement. A rule that demands the elusive state called "consensus" must be achieved before anyone can edit prevents reaching consensus by editing, which is provided by policy as the first way to achieve consensus. The result will not be more consensus, but more frozen articles. Zero talk 09:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
To editor BU Rob13: You can read El_C's statement to see that it has not worked without problem in the American politics area. And your claim that there has only been only incident in the ARBPIA only means that you only know of one. In fact, all over the area editors are unsure of when they are allowed to edit. Zero talk 13:38, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
The present proposal would remove the problematic aspects of the previous ruling. Even though it can be improved, I urge that it be passed like this with any finessing left to future cases. Regarding Seraphim System ( talk · contribs)'s suggestion, I think that there should be a principle right across the project (not restricted to ARBPIA) that reverts made without a cogent explanation don't count towards consensus. This is almost stated at WP:CONSENSUS, but an arbcom ruling that gives it some teeth wouldn't go astray. Zero talk 12:06, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
It's very clear the Committee intended for this whole motion not to apply to reverts related to the General Prohibition. All we need here is to amend the very end of that motion from "exempt from the revert limit" to "exempt from the provisions of this motion". That clears up the ambiguity. ~ Rob13 Talk 06:29, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I can't believe we are applying 30/500 to the whole subject of P/I (even though I believe I predicted wide application). The community was (rightly) very leery of permitting protection when it was introduced for pages with incessant vandalism. We now have four types of protection, and a similar number of move protections, plus cascading protection (and edit filters).
To add to this a "general prohibition" which is effectively another trap for the unwary seems a bad idea. May I suggest that while considering the specific point raised above it is worth considering if this can be simplified.
The section:
"but where that is not feasible, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters."
could be replaced by
"but where that is not feasible, other measures may be used in the normal way to cope with disruption."
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 21:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC).
I agree with NYB that the final sentence of the motion should be deleted. However, if qualifying words are to be added to that sentence instead, may I suggest "in exceptional circumstances" rather than "on rare occasions". It isn't just an issue of frequency - the circumstances should be such that an administrator reasonably judges it appropriate to block without a warning. WJBscribe (talk) 20:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I've been pointing out lately that, like 0RR/ 1RR, we need something on the projectspace (also linked to the pagenotice) which is set up specifically for this 0RR-consensus rule, perhaps under WP:0RRC. Something that elaborates and clarifies it further, perhaps with examples. It just seems that only a sentence or so is too prone to confusion. Perhaps it's best that such a page is set up by the Committee or at least a Committee member, just so there's no misunderstandings for future editors about its meaning. El_C 02:01, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
When I came to ARCA in December, I asked for That one should not be allowed to add, or remove, the same material twice in a 24 hour period.
I thought I got that, but apparently I instead got a monster rule, where everything has to be agreed on at talk, before anyone can revert?
Eg. When User:Shrike inserts this, I can then remove it, go to the talk page and cry WP:UNDUE, …and then neither Shrike nor anyone else will be able to insert it again, as long as I’m protesting on the talk page? No-one of the regulars, AFAIK, in WP:ARBIPA has asked for such a rule! This does not help us who edit in the area, it only helps trigger happy admins. (95-99% of my edits are on articles under ARBIPA, this would make my work virtually impossible.)
I am notifying Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration for more input from the regulars in the area.
Finally, I agree 100% more with User:Newyorkbrad about not "blocking without warning”. I have been blocked without warning twice, and it is by far the most disheartening experience I have had on Wikipedia. By far. And this is coming from a woman who has had more than a thousand death and rape threats on WP. (I believe admins can see some examples here and here) Seriously, I rather have another thousand death and rape threats, than another unwarned block. Huldra ( talk) 09:28, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
When WJBscribe blocked me (btw, without discussing it at AE first), it was with the justification that I was aware of the restrictions, pointing specifically to User talk:Huldra#Arbitration motion regarding Palestine-Israel articles. I was actually delighted when I got that notification from User:L235! I even sent him a public thanks for it.
I don’t think WJBscribe knew that I had initiated that motion, but instead thought it was the normal “warning" about Discretionary sanctions?
I would therefor suggest that when people like User:L235, and others, report on the results from WP:ARCA to people who initiate motion, that they should start their report something like this: "As a result of your request at WP:ARCA at [link], the following motion has passed: etc.. Huldra ( talk) 06:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Ok, what about:
This might not be very elegant language, but it, hopefully, conveys the essential meaning: when one editor wants to add something, it does not take two editors to stop him/her, but only one. Huldra ( talk) 21:05, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
My view, as both an admin and editor on the fringes of this topic area, is that the current interpretation that an edit has to achieve consensus before being reinstated is fair enough. This topic area was plagued by tag-team reverting and this has pretty much ended it. Allowing reverts after 24 hours just leads to longer-term revert wars rather than solving the problem.
I think the block Huldra received for the edit on Jordanian occupation of the West Bank was perfectly justified. Oncenawhile made an edit that was reverted by an editor who deemed it controversial. Huldra made no attempt to get consensus for this but instead simply reinstated Oncenawhile's edit. If this sort of thing is allowed, then we have no effective deterrent against tag teaming, which simply means the side with the most editors will 'win' every time, albeit over a period of days rather than hours. Number 5 7 13:13, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with what Number 57 said.And the proof that the rule is working is the fact that there is a discussion right now Talk:Jordanian_occupation_of_the_West_Bank#Lead_map_-_consensus_to_remove.3F instead of edit wars.Its also clear that group of editors that holds small majority on certain POV will oppose the rule because for them its easier to win in the revert war then to discuss-- Shrike ( talk) 07:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Its clear to me that the onus to build consensus should be on editor that propose the change.-- Shrike ( talk) 20:43, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
{{PING|Zero0000}] There are additional ways to attract users except RFC.There are various noticeboard like RSN,NPOV and so on and there are also relevant project pages.There are no need to build unanimous agreement to reach consensus per WP:Consensus-- Shrike ( talk) 06:59, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
@ El C: No decision is a decision too.-- Shrike ( talk) 05:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll make three points, but first I'll set out the undisputed facts:
The map, which was added six years ago, had no source at all. Only one person (Shrike) supported the map (I don't know what their position is exactly), and at least four people were opposed to it. There was some discussion going on about which kind of map should be there instead. Huldra said clearly in the edit summary, and on the talkpage that she was removing the map because it was WP:OR.
Now the three points:
I propose the following solution: remove the wording altogether. The reason is simple: the focus should be on disruption. A person who repeatedly adds material without consensus is engaging in edit warring. We already have rules against edit warring; why do we need a separate ham-fisted rule which doesn't work? I concur with people above that nobody from ARBPIA asked for this rule; why is it being imposed?
Additionally, I would add a sentence to the remedy: people should extend the basic courtesy of asking people for an explanation, or asking them to self-revert, before bringing them to
WP:AE or blocking them.
This is already
WP:ARBPIA practice; I have been warned a few times in the past because I had broken
WP:1RR inadvertently, I always self-revert, even if I think I'm right.
Kingsindian
♝
♚ 08:35, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Does "tag-teaming" go on in this area? Of course, but no worse than it goes on everywhere else on Wikipedia. There's nothing special about this area, except that opinions tend to be much more polarized, because of the subject matter. In many cases here, people edit similar articles and have sharply opposed views on matters. Charges of "tag-teaming" can be easily flung in such cases. This problem has no solution (unless someone wants to try to solve I/P in the real world - full support to you in that case), and it is indistinguishable from any other area involving politics or religion on Wikipedia.
Lastly, I want to second Zero's point that we're not children here. Rules against edit-warring already exist, and discretionary sanctions cover cases of bad-faith reverting and refusal to discuss on the talkpage. It's all very well to talk about "numbers don't make consensus", but "strength of argument" is not a workable criterion (who evaluates the "strength of argument" anyway?). In many cases, consensus is genuinely unclear. (I note that nobody has even pretended to offer a defence of the original map here , because it pure WP:OR). I reiterate what I said above; a rule like 1RR works because it is a bright-line rule (relatively speaking). "Consensus" is not a bright line rule, and most of the consensus on Wikipedia is achieved through editing and compromise phrasings. Everyone involved in this area is an experienced person with thousands of edits to their name. They should work things among themselves like adults, not run to mommy to file frivolous cases.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingsindian ( talk • contribs) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)Let me now come to the main point. The problem is not, as DGG seems to believe, unreasonable admins enforcing the policy; the problem is reasonable admins enforcing unreasonable policy. DGG has also misread Opabinia regalis's comment made on April 7th. The latter is, as far as I can see, agreeing with Huldra that the original wording tweak was supposed to be just that: a tweak. It was not meant to be some sort of new policy (which nobody asked for, by the way). All people are asking for is for the committee to fix the mess created (inadvertently or not) by a freak wording change. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Number57’s impression that ‘This topic area was plagued by tag-team reverting and this has pretty much ended it.’ I could give, as someone stalked and reverted with persistence by several editors, a dozen examples just from pages I edit over recent months which contradict this (I too can get things wrong, certainly, but so often, with the same unconstructive reverters?). Zero‘s point captures the core of the issue, though his use of the future tense overlooks the fact that what he foresees is already in place:The rule massively increases the power of a revert in the hands of a disruptive editor. No obligation at all is placed on the reverter—not to explain the revert or even to take part in the "consensus forming" that is compulsory for everyone else. Disruptive reverters have never had such power before, and they will use it. This is seconded by both El C’s comment, ‘The revert in question has to be well-reasoned. Otherwise, we are risking virtually unexplained reverts grinding editing to a halt,’ and Opabinia regalis’s regarding a change to ‘each editor’ is one step in the right direction. The problem is not as clear as the initial suggestions made out. Nishidani ( talk) 10:13, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
All good editors in the IP area love the 1RR rule. We also love the brilliant 50/300 rule
The current status of the ARBPIA rule is a significant impediment to progress in the relevant articles. The idea that an editor can swoop in, revert, and then disappear - leaving behind in their wake a stonewall for the other editor - is clearly unacceptable. It makes the status quo unassailable in too many cases, as it is too easily gamed, because there are simply not enough people willing to mediate these kind of disputes as neutral third parties. The previous situation was better, but was also being gamed by 1RR tag-teamers as we have previously discussed. The key here is that reverters / supporters of the status-quo must have the same burden to contribute to substantial discussion as those supporting change. The goal must be to force opposing sides to discuss with each other, in order to reach a reasoned compromise.
To improve this I am inclined to agree with the direction of Nishidani's comment above. I propose that we add text along the lines of:
Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:54, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
@ DGG: to comment on two of your comments:
The current situation is a travesty, bureaucracy gone mad. DGG, with respect, the views in your last post can only mean you are not fully aware of the issues we are complaining about. Perhaps the problem is that because this ARCA request started on one topic and evolved into another, so this thread has simply become too confusing. Maybe we would be better off starting again with a new and focused ARCA request.
Oncenawhile ( talk) 07:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Worth considering the restriction wording at Talk:Kosovo: "All editors on this article are subject to 1RR per day and are required to discuss any content reversions on the article talk page" Oncenawhile ( talk) 06:48, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
As I wrote in ARBPIA3 evidence, I consider tag-team edit warring the main problem of the area, so enforcing discussion before restoring a revert is a great improvement. WP:BRD is an important editing tool which in my opinion should have been an official policy. Some editors wrote that the need to achieve consensus disrupts the editing. Let's consider a few scenarios:
1.
2.
3.
To sum up, I see no serious drawback to the requirement to achieve consensus before restoring a revert, except two which can be resolved by the following amendments:
As always someone might attempt to game the rules, and this is where the AE would need to be involved. “ WarKosign ” 08:43, 26 March 2017 (UTC) 08:28, 26 March 2017 (UTC) Huldra's last proposal ("same editor") defeats the purpose - the problem is tag-teaming editors introducing modifications against consensus, and this proposal allows it. “ WarKosign ” 07:40, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: I think your scenario is mixed up. Before editor A could revert, some editor X made an edit. Then A reverted this edit, B who supports X's edit questions the revert on the talk page. C and D support A, neither X nor B respond - the article remains in its original state and there is silent consensus to keep it this way. Alternatively, if we assume that A reverts some old-standing content it's not actually a revert but rather a new edit. B disagrees and revert's A's edit, stating the reasons on the talk page. C and D support A; there is apparent consensus against B's opinion so A's edit is re-instated and B is not free to revert it. “ WarKosign ” 07:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I don’t know about this purposed rule per say, I think it will always come down to a numbers game, but an issue brought up by another editor needs to be addressed. Which is Mondoweiss and similar publications on both sides. One side has pushed for Mondoweiss to be included as a post facto reliable source. They have done this by preferring to source content from Mondoweiss at every opportunity. When it is readily available in other places.
Some stuff published on Mondoweiss maybe reliable for Wiki if the author is a reliable source. Just the same as if the author had posted on his own blog. But much of Mondoweiss is just random activists with no credibility at risk. Since they have no skin in the game in terms of their reputations and no guarantee of fact checking; it is a very problematic situation.
At the same time pro-Israel think tanks like Middle East Forum are removed on sight. Despite many articles being published by credible academics in those places. The partisanship and accompanying hypocrisy is very troubling.
It is always easier to add material to Wiki then remove it. I would like to see more focus on what are acceptable sources and less on editors voting their opinions. Otherwise Wiki is in danger of ending up a blog. Jonney2000 ( talk) 14:01, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
I think that even with some of the problems of the new rule, it does seem to be working. There are far fewer issues and far fewer disputes. I don't think Huldra's suggestion would work in this case. If we restrict the DS to only that editor, that doesn't stop another editor from reinserting. What should be done is a re-education of how to gain consensus. If the talk page discussion is not helping, then we need to follow DR, either contact DR, or RFC, or 3rd Party. There are plenty of outside help when the main interlocutors don't seem to be getting anywhere. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:59, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
How does the new ruling solve anything? It removes the whole requirement for consensus. What will end up happening is that editors will just wait 24 hours and revert. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:44, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The problem that I have with the new edict of 26 December 2016 in the general 1RR restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles is the stipulation that reads: "In addition, editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit." Question: Is this to imply that all new edits made since 26 December 2016 in Palestine-Israel articles can be deleted by editors, and they can challenge the editors who put them there in the first place, without the first editors restoring their edits until a new consensus has been reached? If so, you open the door for "abusive editing," that is to say, the new guidelines allow editors to freely delete areas in articles based on their sole judgment and conviction and which edits had earlier been agreed upon by consensus, and that such changes will remain in force until such a time that a new consensus can be reached. As you see, this can be problematic. Second Question: Do the new guidelines also apply to reverts made in articles where a consensus had already been reached before 26 December 2016, or do they only apply to reverts made after 26 December 2016, or to both? To avoid future problems arising from this new edict, can I make this one suggestion, namely, that the new guidelines in Palestine-Israel articles be amended to read with this addition: "Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense, or where abuses arise over reverts made in an article where a consensus had already been reached before or after the edict of 26 December 2016 took effect, such editors make themselves liable to disciplinary actions, including blocking." (This, in my opinion, will lend some disambiguity to the new edict). Davidbena ( talk) 15:17, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
I think including something like this In addition, editors who make a revert are expected to accompany their revert with a talk page explanation explaining their revert.
would also be helpful. There should be some element of genuine discussion, the issue with the original wording being that it allowed editors to hide behind the consensus rule to avoid discussion. They would simply revert and then not reply to any talk page discussions once their preferred version was protected under the rule. Right now, this sounds to me like the 1RR rule restated.
Seraphim System (
talk) 10:56, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion).Which isn't particularly different from the disputed sentence
editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit.Opabinia regalis ( talk) 22:31, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Each editor is limited to one revert per page per day on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours.Second sentence reworded a bit because beginning it with "the same editor..." seems confusing to me. Opabinia regalis ( talk) 04:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
The general 1RR restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:
on rare occasions. I'm just not keen on implying blocks without warning should be a standard response, as that probably wasn't the intent of the original motion but could be interpreted this way on a strict reading of the above. Other views welcome, as always. -- Euryalus ( talk) 11:34, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The consensus required restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:
The consensus required restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:
Enacted - Mini apolis 23:31, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by BU Rob13 at 03:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
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Way back when extended-confirmed protection (ECP) was first created, the Committee developed a motion about how extendedconfirmed as a user right interacts with discretionary sanctions and other specific remedies. Among this motion was a prohibition on individual administrators removing "extendedconfirmed" either as a discretionary sanction or to avoid an arbitration enforcement procedure. At the time, this prevented 100% of unilateral removals of the "extendedconfirmed" flag, as ECP was only allowed in areas defined by the Committee.
Since then, the community has developed its own protection policy for applying ECP, but no policy is in place about adding or removing the "extendedconfirmed" flag. I had assumed the original motion prevented administrators from unilaterally removing the flag, since even removals unrelated to sanctioned areas would have unintended consequences on an editor's ability to edit those areas. Xaosflux pointed out to me that this isn't necessarily the case. I'd like to clarify this. Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases? If no, are such removals acceptable in the absence of any community policy to the contrary / do they fall under admin discretion? ~ Rob13 Talk 03:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Basically, I see this as under ArbCom's purview because it either turns an existing ArbCom remedy into a de facto topic ban on certain editors or affects enforcement of the remedy. ~ Rob13 Talk 01:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
My understanding is that only alterations of this user permission related to arbitration remedies are under the control of the arbitration committee - and that any other use is up to the community. Even directly related to use against sanctioned articles, administrative removal of this access has occurred, following community discussion, in instances where the prerequisites have been "gamed" (not as a discretionary sanction). My suggestion would be that the community should further discuss the revocation guidelines and process regarding this access group and document the administrator expectations. — xaosflux Talk 00:30, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with the arbitrators so far and say that the Committee cannot restrict revocations of the extendedconfirmed right outside of arbitration enforcement.
With that being said, I am not sure I like the idea of removing the flag as an enforcement measure for either community policy or arbitration. The extended confirmed flag was not intended to be a "special" user right, such as rollback, for example. If rollback is abused, the natural response is to simply revoke the rollback right. However, I see extended confirmed differently: revoking it as an enforcement measure is beyond the role that the community had originally envisioned for it, which is merely a technical checkbox that ticks for editors that have made 500 edits with 30 days account registration.
If an editor is truly editing disruptively (e.g. violating a topic ban, edit warring), we would use a block to prevent and deter further disruption. Revoking extended confirmed to respond to disruptive editing strikes me as a kind of "partial" or "lesser" block, which, as far as my knowledge goes, is unprecedented. Despite the absence of community policy regarding this, I would strongly advise administrators to wait until the community has discussed whether this kind of enforcement measure is acceptable before unilaterally applying it. I don't see it as part of admin discretion. Mz7 ( talk) 04:19, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
All other user rights that can be granted by a single admin can also be revoked by a single admin. This is as it should be and I believe we are in the realm of unintended consequences here. I believe the committee should act to clarify that its past standing on this issue either now invalid or only applies to arbitration enforcement actions. Again, I don't believe this was the intent but the committee appears to have created policy by fiat, which is not how it works. Beeblebrox ( talk) 22:34, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by NeilN at 05:30, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
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WP:ACDS has instructions for admins placing editing restrictions. To wit, "Any uninvolved administrator may impose on any page or set of pages relating to the area of conflict semi-protection, full protection, move protection, revert restrictions, and prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content (except when consensus for the edit exists)." It has no instructions for admins wishing to modify restrictions placed by other admins. Being the cockeyed optimist that I am, I have to believe that not all restrictions will be needed in the future, especially ones custom tailored to address a current controversy. I'd like Arbcom to clarify the process of getting restrictions removed. I suggest copying the process laid out for modifying sanctions. Briefly, fresh disruption can be met with new restrictions placed by any admin. Restrictions may be lifted only with the agreement of the admin who placed the restrictions. If they are unavailable or disagreement occurs then a request for review may be made at WP:AN or WP:ARCA. Ideally I'd like the lifting-restrictions admin to be allowed to use their judgement if the original admin is unavailable but I realize this could create drama.
Most page restrictions are applied as discretionary sanctions. In my view they should be appealable at WP:Arbitration enforcement like any other sanction. Making such appeals go to WP:ARCA risks using up the time of the committee unnecessarily. Someone who wants an existing restriction lifted might start with {{ Arbitration enforcement appeal}} or a reasonable equivalent. Appeals should be granted or denied using the same venue and consensus rules as for personal sanctions, as laid out at WP:AC/DS#Appeals and modifications. The page at WP:AC/DS does not yet have any wording for how to appeal a page restriction. (These restrictions are sometimes referred to in the WP:DSLOG as 'Page-level sanctions'; you can search the log for that term). It looks like there could be a new item for page-level sanctions added below 'Appeals by sanctioned editors.' If the committee agrees to such a change, it would probably need a motion. EdJohnston ( talk) 18:28, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Apparently, my applying ECP to Jordan in response to an ECP protection request, which I applied in accordance with instructions I had previously requested on how ECP should be applied, has triggered this discussion. Within a matter of hours, that was questioned on my talk page, and that discussion is currently ongoing at RFPP. I have always been hesitant to apply ECP, because it always seemed too vague to me how it is applied. One of the hottest issues in the world that will outlive all of us, and it has been left to admin discretion on whether or not to apply protection, with no clear guidelines on what "broadly interpreted" means in regards to whether or not the article is part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. That conflict, and who and what is related to it, really is subjective and dependent upon where one lives and whether or not one has a personal religion in the mix.
As for the applying admin to also change or lift what they applied, I'm uneasy about that regardless of the subject matter. In this particular case, I think it really sets a bad precedence for the applying admin to do a reversal within hours, and opens the flood gates to "hey, you did it for the last person...". There's always a chance an admin will be approached to lift a restriction they applied, and that often depends on how strongly and diligently another editor is in addressing the admin to lift the sanctions. For the sake of being impartial, especially on the ECP issue, I believe any sanctions lifted should come from an uninvolved admin.
Arb needs to give us some clearer guidelines, please. — Maile ( talk) 19:35, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
I was the editor who first raised this issue with NeilN and I can assure Maile66 that it had nothing to do with Jordan. I appreciate Neil raising the issue here and I support his proposed solution, as well as Ed's. The problem, in a nutshell, is that it appears that literally the only way to have a DS page restriction removed (outside of ArbCom) is to convince the imposing admin--and if the imposing admin disagrees with you, or has retired, then tough luck, the page will likely remain under DS restrictions forever. I'd like to point out that there are actually two distinct but closely related things wrong with this. The first is that sometimes admins make mistakes, or more broadly speaking, a consensus of admins might not support a particular DS page restriction. The second is that sometimes a DS page restriction might be perfectly appropriate at the time it's imposed, but as Neil notes, perhaps it has outlived its usefulness. I hope that whatever comes out of this request addresses both of these scenarios. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 22:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Removing restrictions is already (comprehensively) covered by the "Modifications by administrators" section at WP:AC/DS. Roger Davies talk 11:40, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
In closely related articles to Arab-Israeli conflict, it is obvious that ARBPIA should apply. In farther cases, it should be carefully considered. Especially if its a high level article like for example Jordan, which is an establishment older than the conflict. -- Makeandtoss ( talk) 05:00, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages...
No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without...
In the interest of clarity, the discretionary sanctions procedures described at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions are modified as follows:
Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages...
No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without...
Enacted - Mini apolis 13:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 90 | ← | Archive 94 | Archive 95 | Archive 96 | Archive 97 | Archive 98 | → | Archive 100 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by ResultingConstant at 15:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
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Does the WP:ARBAPDS DS covering "post-1932 politics of the US" cover only narrowly "politics" (eg, politicians, laws, elections, etc) or more broadly, all events/movements which had political impact (for example, gun violence, race relations, LGBT issues, etc)
Specifically, I am raising this clarification request, because I just gave a DS alert to someone regarding Emmett Till, regarding an ongoing RFC and an ongoing (mostly acceptable) dispute/debate regarding the lead. But after giving the alert, I realized it is ambiguous as to if the Till article would actually be subject to the AP DS or not.
I can see strong arguments in either direction, certainly many of the "broad" topics had very great impacts on politics and had very obvious political linkages, but a broad interpretation risks putting basically all of US history, culture, current events etc under DS, as almost everything had some political impacts.
Per the "Collect" case, it would seem there is some precedent for the "broad" interpretation :
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Collect_and_others This case is focused on a broad topic and will examine allegations of misconduct within the American Politics topic, which – for the purposes of this case – also includes the Tea Party Movement topic and any United States-related overlaps with the Gun Control topic.
I am not linking the target of the alert here, because I don't consider them a "party" to an issue as of yet, as I am just asking for clarification, but if I need to link them, please let me know ResultingConstant ( talk) 15:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems obvious (to me at least) that page would need to have some disruption that would benefit from discretionary sanctions. Once that has occurred, I thought the admin moderating the disruption would place the page under DS and log it as a discretionary sanction. I've seen pages where editors have randomly placed the banner but absent an admin logging the page, it's not under DS. For an AP2 page sanction, I'd expect the admin logging the page to point to the discussion that was unproductive, intransigent or disruptive and also about American Politics. No page is inherently covered by any sanction but many quickly demonstrate its necessity. The presumption should be that page does not need DS protection until proven otherwise and the connection to an arbcom case should be obvious from the nature of the disruption/dispute. -- DHeyward ( talk) 01:17, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Beeblebrox at 00:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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Doncram: Motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram (suspended) So, this restriction was suspended for six months, but that six months was up nearly six months ago. We got a third-party request at
WP:PERM to consider re-granting Doncram the Autopatrolled right that was revoked in the early days of this dispute. Since it's unclear if he is still under an editng restriction (it's still listed at
WP:RESTRICT) it is equally unclear if we should consider re-granting this user permission.
My apologies I seem to have misread some time stamps, and additionally the listing at RESTRICT, upon further examination, actually says this did expire on May 5th of last year, so that didn't help either. While we do routinely grant autopatrolled based on third-party requests, if Doncram doesn't actually want us to there's probably no point to this. I'm not sure if I should just remove this, or let a clerk do it? Beeblebrox ( talk) 02:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
I was notified of the auto-patrol nomination and, just now, of this ARCA. This doesn't need to be an ARCA; it is not worth discussing.
P.S. Beetlebrox denied the auto-patrol request already, before opening this here, if I am reading time-stamps correctly. There's nothing open. It may be that Beetlebrox wants for there to be some new community discussion about me before auto-patrol right is granted, but I would think that does not need to come to the arbitration committee. I give up, anyhow. -- do ncr am 01:44, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by NeilN at 05:39, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
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Many articles and talk pages contain information about discretionary sanctions authorized by arbcom and the "rules" governing the editing of articles. These templates may have been designed by one or many editors and arbcom members and placed by a wide variety of admins on numerous articles. I wish to get clarification on what is the proper process for changing the text on these widely used templates. The situation arose [ here]. Is this a matter for admins or does arbcom want to get involved? It is my feeling that we should at least try to limit the number of templates used in an area to minimize editor confusion.
Um, anyone awake here? Or has my clarification request sent you all into a deep state of meditation from where you will emerge and impart the solution for all the issues surrounding discretionary sanctions (crosses fingers)? I have a couple more potential clarification requests that are waiting until this one has some responses. -- NeilN talk to me 05:25, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
I am too frustrated right now to comment. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Using templates for article-level discretionary sanctions gives rise to several problems, which is why I have never used them or engaged in the enforcement of the respective sanctions:
Consequently, ArbCom should amend its procedures to clarify that either
An additional problem is that I have always have had doubts that sanctions contained in talk page templates are even enforceable, because there is no guarantee that any specific editor has even looked at the talk page before making an edit. Even if the template is part of the edit notice, there will be cases where it is not seen, e.g. in the case of edits through WP:AWB or similar tools, or perhaps through the mobile interface. Moreover, even if the editor has seen the template, they often lack the individual notification required per WP:AC/DS#Awareness and therefore cannot be sanctioned even if they violate the template's restrictions. This would support the case of deprecating talk page sanction templates altogether and go back to the practice of applying restrictions to individual editors on their talk page. Sandstein 07:05, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Cowboy AC/DS templates need to end. ArbCom specifies available sanctions and the template should be created at the end of the case. If they need to be "ammended", we have ARCA. Rather than deal with fallout after the blocks/bans/etc based on some admins unique application of a new sanction accompanied by their special template, ARBCOM needs to adopt these templates. As an extreme example, I, a non-admin, can create a template for an article, specify an arbitrary rule and post it on a page and there will be editors and admins willing to enforce it. We've been in a similar place where som draconian restrictions where placed on a talk page and editors were blocked with neither warning or understanding because of an overzealous admin. This stuff needs to stop. -- DHeyward ( talk) 05:02, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Yesterday I saw this edit at the Hillary Clinton talk page. I saw a problem (explained below), and was still wondering how and where to attempt to address this. As this thread has opened at ARCA it seems like this is the right venue.
What kind of a confusing language is this??? Moderate sanctions can not be applied without prior warning while ultimate sanctions (say indef block) can be applied with no questions asked? And the heavier sanction procedure is only explained in the "small print" (not literally small print, but a hidden section is kind of the small print of such "Warning" banner on a talk page)
I'd like to invite Arbs to not go at this as something where the involved parties have to be dealt with sanctions, but rather think in the direction of procedures on how to compose and publish such Warning banners. I suppose both Neil and Coffee acted in the project's best interests, in a commendable way.
I understand that part of the problem probably is that the content of such warnings is composed of remedies that were decided in parts in different ArbCom cases, ARCA filings, and whatnot that decided all of which can be applied to a high profile article such as Clinton's. But such Warning banners should present an harmonised text (i.e. WITHOUT INTERNAL CONTRADICTIONS): e.g., if certain sanctions can be applied without warning, list these sanctions unambiguously; conversely, if all sanctions can be applied without warning, then don't make the banner text unnecessarily long by first giving the impression that warnings are mandatory before a sanction can be applied and then overriding that provision in the "small print".
In short, ArbCom should vet such banner texts before they are published on the talk pages of articles that are by their very nature already quite contentious.
Another suggestion is about style and readability: I'd like to see the text of such Warning banners concise and as accessible as possible to editors that may have a limited command of the English language. There's one aspect of having a text that is legalistically without loopholes, and another to not use stolid legalistic language that may make the intended audience stop reading for being intransigent mumbo-jumbo (e.g. "... may levy ..." – "levy"?? who uses that kind of word when addressing a community of volunteer editors?).
So apart from Arbs vetting the content of such Warning messages, I suggest they seek assistance from style experts for formulating the warning in fluent not-too-high-profile English. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:59, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
The Committee should focus on the overall issue rather than this specific situation. The big question that the Committee should address is how templates that document sanctions may operate. I believe this is a relatively new development, and I've seen no guidelines on this so far. A few specific points in need of clarification:
I'm generally of the opinion that substitution is preferable, especially when you didn't create the template yourself. It sidesteps the problems of unilaterally changing the sanctions of other admins who unexpectedly use a sanctions template you created. I'd also prefer to see a talk page message required on affected articles to change sanctions, in fairness to those expected to abide by the altered restrictions. The important thing here is pinning down the answers to these questions, though, whatever they may be. ~ Rob13 Talk 13:55, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by OccultZone at 14:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm no longer nearly as active as I used to be, but I did notice this request. I've looked back at the past case and refreshed my memory - and on the whole, I would like to see OccultZone unbanned. He was a highly prolific editor who added significantly to Wikipedia.
Unfortunately, he didn't know where to let things go and move on - the term "obsession" used by OccultZone above does indeed summarise my view of his behaviour. He's had a significant period to break that obsession, and if indeed he has been off-wiki for that period - I absolutely support a return to editing.
My only suggestion would be to put some sort of prohibition about adminshopping, and maybe a couple of other restrictions against some of the other areas highlighted in the arbcom case. These should be time limited, to help OccultZone ease back into editing. That said, I would support his return with or without restriction. WormTT( talk) 10:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I quite agree with WormTT. There are already restrictions in place from the case that would still apply should OccultZone return, and if it can be crafted, a "shopping" prohibition might not be a bad idea either. But I think OccultZone is not irredeemable, but is a good person who made some very bad decisions. Since to all indications OccultZone has ceased socking and respected the ban, I certainly hope that's a positive sign that better decisions will be coming in the future. I think it's worth a try. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Not much to add, save that I endorse the comments by Worm That Turned and Seraphimblade. I'm hopeful that OZ's behaviour in the summer of 2015 was an anomaly that won't be repeated and so I'd support an unban (with the other two restrictions remaining in place). Yunshui 雲 水 12:24, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
As per Worm and Seraphimblade, I would like to see OZ's ban lifted. There is no evidence presented that he has attempted to circumvent his ban, and has thereby demonstrated his ability to abide by the ARBCOM decision. The appeal shows CLUE regarding what went haywire, and how this editor will deal with it going forward. OZ is a productive editor who lost the way, time to welcome them back to the "straight and narrow". The restrictions proposed by Worm make sense. 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 15:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with the statements above, but I would like to see a commitment from OZ regarding SPI. If he files a sockpuppetry case, he will need to abide by the decisions of the clerks, CUs, and/or patrolling administrators. Considering his statement, I don't expect that this would crop up again, but an acknowledgement would alleviate some concerns. — DoRD ( talk) 17:46, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
strongly disagreewith what, and what does your anti-paid editing crusade have to do with OZ's unban request? — DoRD ( talk) 19:07, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
I had very little direct interaction with OZ whom I always saw as a prolific contributor who was sometimes unable to drop the stick. However, I had substantial interactions with BladesMulti, an account blocked as a sock of OZ that had substantial behavioral issues, including edit-warring, and NPOV related issues. I can provide further evidence if needed. Since it has been three years, I don't think this precludes a lifting of the ban, but I think this is something Arbcom should look into, and possibly leave certain restrictions in place with respect to these issues. I'd suggest a 1RR restriction.
Furthermore, there are some unresolved issues with respect to another account, namely AmritasyaPutra, who was initially blocked as an OZ sock, later (as I understand it) unblocked after a BASC appeal, and then blocked again for socking on his own account. Now if the first block was, in fact, a false positive, then this is no barrier to OZ being unblocked. But (and I realize some of this information probably is private, and cannot be shared outside the committee) some clarity about this might be nice: because the last AP sock was in fact blocked three months ago, and the previous one not too long before that. Vanamonde ( talk) 18:08, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Editor indef-blocked; commentary irrelevant. Drmies ( talk) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
It is not clear to me why this edit was made by the user with that edit summary and what their connection with User:Natalinasmpf is. Their next edit was cryptic. Hence I oppose the unbanning of this editor who appears to be a component of the very long term abusive 'Natalinasmpf' sock /paid-editing team who are unredeemable and still hugely active on Wikipedia. Inlinetext ( talk) 16:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
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Having refreshed my memory of this case, I think the time has come to allow OZ a conditional to return to editing. The conditions being the topic ban and one account restrictions remaining in place, and a restriction on forum shopping being added. For the latter, perhaps something like:
OccultZone may not:
OccultZone is not restricted from:
As usual with things I suggest it is probably possible to simplify this! Thryduulf ( talk) 15:19, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Vanamonde93: I agree that would be a good idea. Doug Weller seems to have been the arb who has most recently looked at this, so hopefully they will comment on whether the OZ and AmritasyaPutra SPIs should be separated or not. Thryduulf ( talk) 10:11, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Blades is responsible for the besmirching of my otherwise virgin block log, and at the request of an arbiter who hasn't signed their comment below, I thought I might note that these socks have coloured my editing behaviour since that time. Blades went from being incompetent in English overnight to having reasonable ability when I started challenging him at
Ayurveda, and we received a minor block at the same time, after the events described in the link to BladesTalk where I am involved below. I never expected to see Blades or the editor known as blades back at his tricks again. I am no longer optimistic.
Roxy the dog.
bark 13:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Sock of Inlinetext. Ks0stm ( T• C• G• E) 19:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
@ Vanamonde93: The missing link for this discussion is that this is a secret digital meatpuppet army of RSS workers on Wikipedia who are networked through fronts like the Ramakrishna Mission, seminaries like Vivekananda Institute of Human Excellence (admin check delete log), and edits and ivotes are coordinated through facebook messenger, whatsapp. Here is the reliable link. Many of its members are with the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the account passwords are shared so you get non-Indian IPs mixed with IPs from India, and situations where accounts use broken English in one edit, switch to decent English and then revert to form. They have figured out Wikipedia so they maintain multiple good hand / bad hand accounts which argue both sides of the debate to rig it. But I'm not telling you anything new am I ? Smasnugget ( talk) 18:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC) |
I have seen that main account's conduct is generally taken into consideration while socks are ignored because a user's attitude can be different on every sock account they use. Best response to socking and its consequences was the site ban that he is still abiding.
Of the diffs you provided @ Doug Weller: one diff was from January 2014, 2nd diff is not working and last one came after violating 0RR on a article that is already rid of 0RR rule, here Bladesmulti was blocked and unblocked along with some other editors. [2] [3] It also seems that he made no edits on any article with this sock during final 2 months, [4] except one which involved removal of unsupported attributions and a spam link.
Few articles where I have been interested since first day were also edited OZ and his edits of any accounts remains there to this day because they were useful. He has not evaded site ban and it should cease any possibility of further topic ban, see WP:PUNITIVE. I further agree with Opabinia regalis, that entire case emerged from rape in India subject, it is sensible to maintain topic ban over it.
Like others told, OZ is a good contributor and also to the South Asian articles area which is regularly disrupted by spammers, harassment socks and edit warriors and they return anytime they see inactivity of other contributors, and that's the thing usually forces me to keep checking the articles, having OZ's presence would be advantageous. D4iNa4 ( talk) 03:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I was the editor who mentored Bladesmulti (see User talk:Bladesmulti/Mentorship, and Amritasha Putra; this "discussion", which presents a nice overview of sockpuppets, may serve as a reminder that the mentoring was not exactly succesfull, and the efforts on my part were not met with an equally repricocal attitude by Bladesmulti. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Just saw I was pinged here by now indeffed editor. Nonetheless it's good, I support unban.
I agree with Doug Weller's suggestion to put 6 months topic ban from South Asia, there should be a time limit since he never had a topic ban before.
Noting the broadness of 6 months ban from South Asia, this topic ban should supersede the active topic ban on crimes in South Asia (often known as Indian subcontinent). I don't find any sense in current topic ban because OccultZone used no socks on Rape in India and present version of the article is same as his preferred version. I should note that Indian subcontinent is bigger than just India. On all of his accounts, he had only one block more than 3 years ago for violating WP:3RR [5] on all his accounts, rest of the blocks were overturned, sometimes as unwarranted, and none of his accounts ever had a block unrelated to India that's why 1RR restriction is not an option as well. Capitals00 ( talk) 15:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Taking the pedantry even further...
@
Callanecc and
Thryduulf: Suggest: "Raising any issue at more than one venue, whatever those venues are (with the exception of bringing a case or clarification/amendment request to ArbCom)." -
Ryk72
'c.s.n.s.' 00:17, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The indefinite siteban of OccultZone ( talk · contribs) imposed in remedy 1 of the "OccultZone and others" arbitration case is rescinded with the following restrictions:
These restrictions may be appealed to the Committee in no less than six months.
Enacted - Mini apolis 16:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Zero0000 at 06:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
The motion passed on Dec 26, 2016 begins, with my sentence numbering added:
Since the act of restoring a reverted edit will most commonly be a revert itself, it is unclear whether sentence (c) applies to it. The relevant (very common) scenario is like this:
I'm sure the community would consider action (3) to be law-abiding, but a literal reading of the motion does not support that assumption. The problem is that sentence (c) refers only to the revert limit and not to the requirement to get consensus. I suggest that sentence (c) be replaced by something like "Edits made to enforce the General Prohibition are exempt from the revert limit and the requirement to obtain consensus."
Note that if sentence (c) is read as not applying to the need for consensus, then a non-30/500 editor can cause major disruption to article development by reverting legitimate editors, which is contrary to the purpose behind the introduction of the 30/500 restriction. Thanks. Zero talk 06:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
About the need for consensus. I am writing with 15 years of experience in the IP area, 12 of them as administrator. I can tell you as a fact: this new rule as it is being interpreted will be a mill-stone around the neck of every good editor working in the IP area. Please don't get bogged down in discussing one particular incident; what is important is the future application of the rule.
There are two major problems that I'll spell out one at a time.
1. The rule massively increases the power of a revert in the hands of a disruptive editor. No obligation at all is placed on the reverter—not to explain the revert or even to take part in the "consensus forming" that is compulsory for everyone else. Disruptive reverters have never had such power before, and they will use it.
2. No time limit is specified for the need for consensus. A literal reading of the rule is that for each edit we have to search the article history, right back to article creation if necessary, to see if we are undoing a revert. Presumably nobody would be punished for undoing a five-year's old revert, but what about one year, one month, one week? It is a granted that admins at AE won't agree on what timeout is reasonable. Editors need to be able to tell with reasonable certainty whether they are acting within the rules, but the current wording does not enable that.
Nobody from the IP area asked for this rule. Since the very purpose of rules is to assist good-faith editors to write great articles, I put it to you that this rule is not a good one. Thank you for reading. Zero talk 00:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Shrike: Noticeboards like RSN and NPOV often don't end with a clear consensus, and they hardly ever bring fresh editors to article talk pages. They usually just attract regulars who express completely predictable opinions. And who gets to decide when consensus has been reached? Editors who think that some admin will agree there was no consensus will take the opportunity to punish their opponents by taking them to AE. You know that because you already did it. Zero talk 08:09, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
To editor Opabinia regalis: I don't know that anyone has read the "Editors are limited to one revert" in the first sentence as meaning anything except "Each editor is limited to one revert". It isn't the problem that caught Huldra. So if that's what you mean, I don't see how it would help. All good editors in the IP area love the 1RR rule. We also love the brilliant 50/300 rule, which has greatly reduced the labor of keeping good articles good. The problem is with the next sentence "In addition, editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit" which is a disaster and nothing at all like what Huldra asked for. I've tried to explain why it is bad above. Some people around here have the idea that the IP area is rotten and needs to be fixed by wielding a big stick. The truth is that the area has never been better. The last thing we need is a rule that leaves good editors not knowing whether the edit they want to make will get them blocked or not. Please remove it. Zero talk 08:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
To editor Opabinia regalis: Yes, you are correct that the sentence is similar to a comment Huldra made before, quite different from her initial request. I think her comment was a mistake, unusually for her, but I'm more concerned with what will work. The sentence means that one editor can bring editing to a halt without even giving a reason, then nobody else will know when editing can resume because the group will not agree on when consensus has been achieved. Zero talk 23:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
To editor BU Rob13: The fact that you think the rule worked in one case has no bearing on how it will "work" in general. Why not try to answer some of the objections? Zero talk 23:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: Your reply mostly consists of misrepresenting my, and others', position and I will only respond to one point: You claim: "you've also argued that admins can't exercise common sense (blocking someone for re-adding something that was reverted years ago)". My response: Nonsense. My objection is that admins will not agree where the boundary lies and we shouldn't have to wait until we are taken to AE before knowing if an edit will get us blocked or not. If I want to gamble, I prefer Las Vegas. Just add a time limit to that sentence and the problem is gone; easy. Zero talk 00:09, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Number 57: I'm confused by the logic of your latest statement. If one "side" has all the numbers then surely that side has the upper hand in "consensus forming" and so would be advantaged by a rule that requires consensus. You yourself argued against holding an RfC on those grounds. Now you allege that the side with the numbers wants to remove the need for consensus as it is not to their advantage. Are you not trying to have it both ways? Zero talk 01:11, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
To editor WJBscribe: We editors in the IP area are not naughty children who need to be brought into line. Almost all of the regulars spend more time on the talk page than in article space already, whenever there is the slightest disagreement. A rule that demands the elusive state called "consensus" must be achieved before anyone can edit prevents reaching consensus by editing, which is provided by policy as the first way to achieve consensus. The result will not be more consensus, but more frozen articles. Zero talk 09:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
To editor BU Rob13: You can read El_C's statement to see that it has not worked without problem in the American politics area. And your claim that there has only been only incident in the ARBPIA only means that you only know of one. In fact, all over the area editors are unsure of when they are allowed to edit. Zero talk 13:38, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
The present proposal would remove the problematic aspects of the previous ruling. Even though it can be improved, I urge that it be passed like this with any finessing left to future cases. Regarding Seraphim System ( talk · contribs)'s suggestion, I think that there should be a principle right across the project (not restricted to ARBPIA) that reverts made without a cogent explanation don't count towards consensus. This is almost stated at WP:CONSENSUS, but an arbcom ruling that gives it some teeth wouldn't go astray. Zero talk 12:06, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
It's very clear the Committee intended for this whole motion not to apply to reverts related to the General Prohibition. All we need here is to amend the very end of that motion from "exempt from the revert limit" to "exempt from the provisions of this motion". That clears up the ambiguity. ~ Rob13 Talk 06:29, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I can't believe we are applying 30/500 to the whole subject of P/I (even though I believe I predicted wide application). The community was (rightly) very leery of permitting protection when it was introduced for pages with incessant vandalism. We now have four types of protection, and a similar number of move protections, plus cascading protection (and edit filters).
To add to this a "general prohibition" which is effectively another trap for the unwary seems a bad idea. May I suggest that while considering the specific point raised above it is worth considering if this can be simplified.
The section:
"but where that is not feasible, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters."
could be replaced by
"but where that is not feasible, other measures may be used in the normal way to cope with disruption."
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 21:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC).
I agree with NYB that the final sentence of the motion should be deleted. However, if qualifying words are to be added to that sentence instead, may I suggest "in exceptional circumstances" rather than "on rare occasions". It isn't just an issue of frequency - the circumstances should be such that an administrator reasonably judges it appropriate to block without a warning. WJBscribe (talk) 20:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I've been pointing out lately that, like 0RR/ 1RR, we need something on the projectspace (also linked to the pagenotice) which is set up specifically for this 0RR-consensus rule, perhaps under WP:0RRC. Something that elaborates and clarifies it further, perhaps with examples. It just seems that only a sentence or so is too prone to confusion. Perhaps it's best that such a page is set up by the Committee or at least a Committee member, just so there's no misunderstandings for future editors about its meaning. El_C 02:01, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
When I came to ARCA in December, I asked for That one should not be allowed to add, or remove, the same material twice in a 24 hour period.
I thought I got that, but apparently I instead got a monster rule, where everything has to be agreed on at talk, before anyone can revert?
Eg. When User:Shrike inserts this, I can then remove it, go to the talk page and cry WP:UNDUE, …and then neither Shrike nor anyone else will be able to insert it again, as long as I’m protesting on the talk page? No-one of the regulars, AFAIK, in WP:ARBIPA has asked for such a rule! This does not help us who edit in the area, it only helps trigger happy admins. (95-99% of my edits are on articles under ARBIPA, this would make my work virtually impossible.)
I am notifying Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration for more input from the regulars in the area.
Finally, I agree 100% more with User:Newyorkbrad about not "blocking without warning”. I have been blocked without warning twice, and it is by far the most disheartening experience I have had on Wikipedia. By far. And this is coming from a woman who has had more than a thousand death and rape threats on WP. (I believe admins can see some examples here and here) Seriously, I rather have another thousand death and rape threats, than another unwarned block. Huldra ( talk) 09:28, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
When WJBscribe blocked me (btw, without discussing it at AE first), it was with the justification that I was aware of the restrictions, pointing specifically to User talk:Huldra#Arbitration motion regarding Palestine-Israel articles. I was actually delighted when I got that notification from User:L235! I even sent him a public thanks for it.
I don’t think WJBscribe knew that I had initiated that motion, but instead thought it was the normal “warning" about Discretionary sanctions?
I would therefor suggest that when people like User:L235, and others, report on the results from WP:ARCA to people who initiate motion, that they should start their report something like this: "As a result of your request at WP:ARCA at [link], the following motion has passed: etc.. Huldra ( talk) 06:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Ok, what about:
This might not be very elegant language, but it, hopefully, conveys the essential meaning: when one editor wants to add something, it does not take two editors to stop him/her, but only one. Huldra ( talk) 21:05, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
My view, as both an admin and editor on the fringes of this topic area, is that the current interpretation that an edit has to achieve consensus before being reinstated is fair enough. This topic area was plagued by tag-team reverting and this has pretty much ended it. Allowing reverts after 24 hours just leads to longer-term revert wars rather than solving the problem.
I think the block Huldra received for the edit on Jordanian occupation of the West Bank was perfectly justified. Oncenawhile made an edit that was reverted by an editor who deemed it controversial. Huldra made no attempt to get consensus for this but instead simply reinstated Oncenawhile's edit. If this sort of thing is allowed, then we have no effective deterrent against tag teaming, which simply means the side with the most editors will 'win' every time, albeit over a period of days rather than hours. Number 5 7 13:13, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with what Number 57 said.And the proof that the rule is working is the fact that there is a discussion right now Talk:Jordanian_occupation_of_the_West_Bank#Lead_map_-_consensus_to_remove.3F instead of edit wars.Its also clear that group of editors that holds small majority on certain POV will oppose the rule because for them its easier to win in the revert war then to discuss-- Shrike ( talk) 07:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Its clear to me that the onus to build consensus should be on editor that propose the change.-- Shrike ( talk) 20:43, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
{{PING|Zero0000}] There are additional ways to attract users except RFC.There are various noticeboard like RSN,NPOV and so on and there are also relevant project pages.There are no need to build unanimous agreement to reach consensus per WP:Consensus-- Shrike ( talk) 06:59, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
@ El C: No decision is a decision too.-- Shrike ( talk) 05:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll make three points, but first I'll set out the undisputed facts:
The map, which was added six years ago, had no source at all. Only one person (Shrike) supported the map (I don't know what their position is exactly), and at least four people were opposed to it. There was some discussion going on about which kind of map should be there instead. Huldra said clearly in the edit summary, and on the talkpage that she was removing the map because it was WP:OR.
Now the three points:
I propose the following solution: remove the wording altogether. The reason is simple: the focus should be on disruption. A person who repeatedly adds material without consensus is engaging in edit warring. We already have rules against edit warring; why do we need a separate ham-fisted rule which doesn't work? I concur with people above that nobody from ARBPIA asked for this rule; why is it being imposed?
Additionally, I would add a sentence to the remedy: people should extend the basic courtesy of asking people for an explanation, or asking them to self-revert, before bringing them to
WP:AE or blocking them.
This is already
WP:ARBPIA practice; I have been warned a few times in the past because I had broken
WP:1RR inadvertently, I always self-revert, even if I think I'm right.
Kingsindian
♝
♚ 08:35, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Does "tag-teaming" go on in this area? Of course, but no worse than it goes on everywhere else on Wikipedia. There's nothing special about this area, except that opinions tend to be much more polarized, because of the subject matter. In many cases here, people edit similar articles and have sharply opposed views on matters. Charges of "tag-teaming" can be easily flung in such cases. This problem has no solution (unless someone wants to try to solve I/P in the real world - full support to you in that case), and it is indistinguishable from any other area involving politics or religion on Wikipedia.
Lastly, I want to second Zero's point that we're not children here. Rules against edit-warring already exist, and discretionary sanctions cover cases of bad-faith reverting and refusal to discuss on the talkpage. It's all very well to talk about "numbers don't make consensus", but "strength of argument" is not a workable criterion (who evaluates the "strength of argument" anyway?). In many cases, consensus is genuinely unclear. (I note that nobody has even pretended to offer a defence of the original map here , because it pure WP:OR). I reiterate what I said above; a rule like 1RR works because it is a bright-line rule (relatively speaking). "Consensus" is not a bright line rule, and most of the consensus on Wikipedia is achieved through editing and compromise phrasings. Everyone involved in this area is an experienced person with thousands of edits to their name. They should work things among themselves like adults, not run to mommy to file frivolous cases.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingsindian ( talk • contribs) 10:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)Let me now come to the main point. The problem is not, as DGG seems to believe, unreasonable admins enforcing the policy; the problem is reasonable admins enforcing unreasonable policy. DGG has also misread Opabinia regalis's comment made on April 7th. The latter is, as far as I can see, agreeing with Huldra that the original wording tweak was supposed to be just that: a tweak. It was not meant to be some sort of new policy (which nobody asked for, by the way). All people are asking for is for the committee to fix the mess created (inadvertently or not) by a freak wording change. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Number57’s impression that ‘This topic area was plagued by tag-team reverting and this has pretty much ended it.’ I could give, as someone stalked and reverted with persistence by several editors, a dozen examples just from pages I edit over recent months which contradict this (I too can get things wrong, certainly, but so often, with the same unconstructive reverters?). Zero‘s point captures the core of the issue, though his use of the future tense overlooks the fact that what he foresees is already in place:The rule massively increases the power of a revert in the hands of a disruptive editor. No obligation at all is placed on the reverter—not to explain the revert or even to take part in the "consensus forming" that is compulsory for everyone else. Disruptive reverters have never had such power before, and they will use it. This is seconded by both El C’s comment, ‘The revert in question has to be well-reasoned. Otherwise, we are risking virtually unexplained reverts grinding editing to a halt,’ and Opabinia regalis’s regarding a change to ‘each editor’ is one step in the right direction. The problem is not as clear as the initial suggestions made out. Nishidani ( talk) 10:13, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
All good editors in the IP area love the 1RR rule. We also love the brilliant 50/300 rule
The current status of the ARBPIA rule is a significant impediment to progress in the relevant articles. The idea that an editor can swoop in, revert, and then disappear - leaving behind in their wake a stonewall for the other editor - is clearly unacceptable. It makes the status quo unassailable in too many cases, as it is too easily gamed, because there are simply not enough people willing to mediate these kind of disputes as neutral third parties. The previous situation was better, but was also being gamed by 1RR tag-teamers as we have previously discussed. The key here is that reverters / supporters of the status-quo must have the same burden to contribute to substantial discussion as those supporting change. The goal must be to force opposing sides to discuss with each other, in order to reach a reasoned compromise.
To improve this I am inclined to agree with the direction of Nishidani's comment above. I propose that we add text along the lines of:
Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:54, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
@ DGG: to comment on two of your comments:
The current situation is a travesty, bureaucracy gone mad. DGG, with respect, the views in your last post can only mean you are not fully aware of the issues we are complaining about. Perhaps the problem is that because this ARCA request started on one topic and evolved into another, so this thread has simply become too confusing. Maybe we would be better off starting again with a new and focused ARCA request.
Oncenawhile ( talk) 07:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Worth considering the restriction wording at Talk:Kosovo: "All editors on this article are subject to 1RR per day and are required to discuss any content reversions on the article talk page" Oncenawhile ( talk) 06:48, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
As I wrote in ARBPIA3 evidence, I consider tag-team edit warring the main problem of the area, so enforcing discussion before restoring a revert is a great improvement. WP:BRD is an important editing tool which in my opinion should have been an official policy. Some editors wrote that the need to achieve consensus disrupts the editing. Let's consider a few scenarios:
1.
2.
3.
To sum up, I see no serious drawback to the requirement to achieve consensus before restoring a revert, except two which can be resolved by the following amendments:
As always someone might attempt to game the rules, and this is where the AE would need to be involved. “ WarKosign ” 08:43, 26 March 2017 (UTC) 08:28, 26 March 2017 (UTC) Huldra's last proposal ("same editor") defeats the purpose - the problem is tag-teaming editors introducing modifications against consensus, and this proposal allows it. “ WarKosign ” 07:40, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: I think your scenario is mixed up. Before editor A could revert, some editor X made an edit. Then A reverted this edit, B who supports X's edit questions the revert on the talk page. C and D support A, neither X nor B respond - the article remains in its original state and there is silent consensus to keep it this way. Alternatively, if we assume that A reverts some old-standing content it's not actually a revert but rather a new edit. B disagrees and revert's A's edit, stating the reasons on the talk page. C and D support A; there is apparent consensus against B's opinion so A's edit is re-instated and B is not free to revert it. “ WarKosign ” 07:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I don’t know about this purposed rule per say, I think it will always come down to a numbers game, but an issue brought up by another editor needs to be addressed. Which is Mondoweiss and similar publications on both sides. One side has pushed for Mondoweiss to be included as a post facto reliable source. They have done this by preferring to source content from Mondoweiss at every opportunity. When it is readily available in other places.
Some stuff published on Mondoweiss maybe reliable for Wiki if the author is a reliable source. Just the same as if the author had posted on his own blog. But much of Mondoweiss is just random activists with no credibility at risk. Since they have no skin in the game in terms of their reputations and no guarantee of fact checking; it is a very problematic situation.
At the same time pro-Israel think tanks like Middle East Forum are removed on sight. Despite many articles being published by credible academics in those places. The partisanship and accompanying hypocrisy is very troubling.
It is always easier to add material to Wiki then remove it. I would like to see more focus on what are acceptable sources and less on editors voting their opinions. Otherwise Wiki is in danger of ending up a blog. Jonney2000 ( talk) 14:01, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
I think that even with some of the problems of the new rule, it does seem to be working. There are far fewer issues and far fewer disputes. I don't think Huldra's suggestion would work in this case. If we restrict the DS to only that editor, that doesn't stop another editor from reinserting. What should be done is a re-education of how to gain consensus. If the talk page discussion is not helping, then we need to follow DR, either contact DR, or RFC, or 3rd Party. There are plenty of outside help when the main interlocutors don't seem to be getting anywhere. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:59, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
How does the new ruling solve anything? It removes the whole requirement for consensus. What will end up happening is that editors will just wait 24 hours and revert. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:44, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The problem that I have with the new edict of 26 December 2016 in the general 1RR restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles is the stipulation that reads: "In addition, editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit." Question: Is this to imply that all new edits made since 26 December 2016 in Palestine-Israel articles can be deleted by editors, and they can challenge the editors who put them there in the first place, without the first editors restoring their edits until a new consensus has been reached? If so, you open the door for "abusive editing," that is to say, the new guidelines allow editors to freely delete areas in articles based on their sole judgment and conviction and which edits had earlier been agreed upon by consensus, and that such changes will remain in force until such a time that a new consensus can be reached. As you see, this can be problematic. Second Question: Do the new guidelines also apply to reverts made in articles where a consensus had already been reached before 26 December 2016, or do they only apply to reverts made after 26 December 2016, or to both? To avoid future problems arising from this new edict, can I make this one suggestion, namely, that the new guidelines in Palestine-Israel articles be amended to read with this addition: "Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense, or where abuses arise over reverts made in an article where a consensus had already been reached before or after the edict of 26 December 2016 took effect, such editors make themselves liable to disciplinary actions, including blocking." (This, in my opinion, will lend some disambiguity to the new edict). Davidbena ( talk) 15:17, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
I think including something like this In addition, editors who make a revert are expected to accompany their revert with a talk page explanation explaining their revert.
would also be helpful. There should be some element of genuine discussion, the issue with the original wording being that it allowed editors to hide behind the consensus rule to avoid discussion. They would simply revert and then not reply to any talk page discussions once their preferred version was protected under the rule. Right now, this sounds to me like the 1RR rule restated.
Seraphim System (
talk) 10:56, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion).Which isn't particularly different from the disputed sentence
editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit.Opabinia regalis ( talk) 22:31, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Each editor is limited to one revert per page per day on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours.Second sentence reworded a bit because beginning it with "the same editor..." seems confusing to me. Opabinia regalis ( talk) 04:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
The general 1RR restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:
on rare occasions. I'm just not keen on implying blocks without warning should be a standard response, as that probably wasn't the intent of the original motion but could be interpreted this way on a strict reading of the above. Other views welcome, as always. -- Euryalus ( talk) 11:34, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The consensus required restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:
The consensus required restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:
Enacted - Mini apolis 23:31, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by BU Rob13 at 03:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Way back when extended-confirmed protection (ECP) was first created, the Committee developed a motion about how extendedconfirmed as a user right interacts with discretionary sanctions and other specific remedies. Among this motion was a prohibition on individual administrators removing "extendedconfirmed" either as a discretionary sanction or to avoid an arbitration enforcement procedure. At the time, this prevented 100% of unilateral removals of the "extendedconfirmed" flag, as ECP was only allowed in areas defined by the Committee.
Since then, the community has developed its own protection policy for applying ECP, but no policy is in place about adding or removing the "extendedconfirmed" flag. I had assumed the original motion prevented administrators from unilaterally removing the flag, since even removals unrelated to sanctioned areas would have unintended consequences on an editor's ability to edit those areas. Xaosflux pointed out to me that this isn't necessarily the case. I'd like to clarify this. Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases? If no, are such removals acceptable in the absence of any community policy to the contrary / do they fall under admin discretion? ~ Rob13 Talk 03:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Basically, I see this as under ArbCom's purview because it either turns an existing ArbCom remedy into a de facto topic ban on certain editors or affects enforcement of the remedy. ~ Rob13 Talk 01:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
My understanding is that only alterations of this user permission related to arbitration remedies are under the control of the arbitration committee - and that any other use is up to the community. Even directly related to use against sanctioned articles, administrative removal of this access has occurred, following community discussion, in instances where the prerequisites have been "gamed" (not as a discretionary sanction). My suggestion would be that the community should further discuss the revocation guidelines and process regarding this access group and document the administrator expectations. — xaosflux Talk 00:30, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with the arbitrators so far and say that the Committee cannot restrict revocations of the extendedconfirmed right outside of arbitration enforcement.
With that being said, I am not sure I like the idea of removing the flag as an enforcement measure for either community policy or arbitration. The extended confirmed flag was not intended to be a "special" user right, such as rollback, for example. If rollback is abused, the natural response is to simply revoke the rollback right. However, I see extended confirmed differently: revoking it as an enforcement measure is beyond the role that the community had originally envisioned for it, which is merely a technical checkbox that ticks for editors that have made 500 edits with 30 days account registration.
If an editor is truly editing disruptively (e.g. violating a topic ban, edit warring), we would use a block to prevent and deter further disruption. Revoking extended confirmed to respond to disruptive editing strikes me as a kind of "partial" or "lesser" block, which, as far as my knowledge goes, is unprecedented. Despite the absence of community policy regarding this, I would strongly advise administrators to wait until the community has discussed whether this kind of enforcement measure is acceptable before unilaterally applying it. I don't see it as part of admin discretion. Mz7 ( talk) 04:19, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
All other user rights that can be granted by a single admin can also be revoked by a single admin. This is as it should be and I believe we are in the realm of unintended consequences here. I believe the committee should act to clarify that its past standing on this issue either now invalid or only applies to arbitration enforcement actions. Again, I don't believe this was the intent but the committee appears to have created policy by fiat, which is not how it works. Beeblebrox ( talk) 22:34, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by NeilN at 05:30, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
WP:ACDS has instructions for admins placing editing restrictions. To wit, "Any uninvolved administrator may impose on any page or set of pages relating to the area of conflict semi-protection, full protection, move protection, revert restrictions, and prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content (except when consensus for the edit exists)." It has no instructions for admins wishing to modify restrictions placed by other admins. Being the cockeyed optimist that I am, I have to believe that not all restrictions will be needed in the future, especially ones custom tailored to address a current controversy. I'd like Arbcom to clarify the process of getting restrictions removed. I suggest copying the process laid out for modifying sanctions. Briefly, fresh disruption can be met with new restrictions placed by any admin. Restrictions may be lifted only with the agreement of the admin who placed the restrictions. If they are unavailable or disagreement occurs then a request for review may be made at WP:AN or WP:ARCA. Ideally I'd like the lifting-restrictions admin to be allowed to use their judgement if the original admin is unavailable but I realize this could create drama.
Most page restrictions are applied as discretionary sanctions. In my view they should be appealable at WP:Arbitration enforcement like any other sanction. Making such appeals go to WP:ARCA risks using up the time of the committee unnecessarily. Someone who wants an existing restriction lifted might start with {{ Arbitration enforcement appeal}} or a reasonable equivalent. Appeals should be granted or denied using the same venue and consensus rules as for personal sanctions, as laid out at WP:AC/DS#Appeals and modifications. The page at WP:AC/DS does not yet have any wording for how to appeal a page restriction. (These restrictions are sometimes referred to in the WP:DSLOG as 'Page-level sanctions'; you can search the log for that term). It looks like there could be a new item for page-level sanctions added below 'Appeals by sanctioned editors.' If the committee agrees to such a change, it would probably need a motion. EdJohnston ( talk) 18:28, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Apparently, my applying ECP to Jordan in response to an ECP protection request, which I applied in accordance with instructions I had previously requested on how ECP should be applied, has triggered this discussion. Within a matter of hours, that was questioned on my talk page, and that discussion is currently ongoing at RFPP. I have always been hesitant to apply ECP, because it always seemed too vague to me how it is applied. One of the hottest issues in the world that will outlive all of us, and it has been left to admin discretion on whether or not to apply protection, with no clear guidelines on what "broadly interpreted" means in regards to whether or not the article is part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. That conflict, and who and what is related to it, really is subjective and dependent upon where one lives and whether or not one has a personal religion in the mix.
As for the applying admin to also change or lift what they applied, I'm uneasy about that regardless of the subject matter. In this particular case, I think it really sets a bad precedence for the applying admin to do a reversal within hours, and opens the flood gates to "hey, you did it for the last person...". There's always a chance an admin will be approached to lift a restriction they applied, and that often depends on how strongly and diligently another editor is in addressing the admin to lift the sanctions. For the sake of being impartial, especially on the ECP issue, I believe any sanctions lifted should come from an uninvolved admin.
Arb needs to give us some clearer guidelines, please. — Maile ( talk) 19:35, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
I was the editor who first raised this issue with NeilN and I can assure Maile66 that it had nothing to do with Jordan. I appreciate Neil raising the issue here and I support his proposed solution, as well as Ed's. The problem, in a nutshell, is that it appears that literally the only way to have a DS page restriction removed (outside of ArbCom) is to convince the imposing admin--and if the imposing admin disagrees with you, or has retired, then tough luck, the page will likely remain under DS restrictions forever. I'd like to point out that there are actually two distinct but closely related things wrong with this. The first is that sometimes admins make mistakes, or more broadly speaking, a consensus of admins might not support a particular DS page restriction. The second is that sometimes a DS page restriction might be perfectly appropriate at the time it's imposed, but as Neil notes, perhaps it has outlived its usefulness. I hope that whatever comes out of this request addresses both of these scenarios. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 22:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Removing restrictions is already (comprehensively) covered by the "Modifications by administrators" section at WP:AC/DS. Roger Davies talk 11:40, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
In closely related articles to Arab-Israeli conflict, it is obvious that ARBPIA should apply. In farther cases, it should be carefully considered. Especially if its a high level article like for example Jordan, which is an establishment older than the conflict. -- Makeandtoss ( talk) 05:00, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages...
No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without...
In the interest of clarity, the discretionary sanctions procedures described at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions are modified as follows:
Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages...
No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without...
Enacted - Mini apolis 13:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)