This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The action was taken under the premise of:
General restriction
11) Any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below. Before the restriction shall come into effect for a particular editor, that editor shall be given an official notice of it with a link to this decision.
I would like to appeal against this action and the finding of my incivility based on the following points:
1. My incivility was never explicitly stated by the administrator who imposed it despite a request to do so. Another administrator (Thatcher) simply suggesting the need for
Dispute resolution, without considering that a 'request to move' is a form of dispute resolution.
2. Under some circumstances incivility is justified such as when the Wikipedia user is found to be using methods of argument during a discussion which are easily likened to abuse of
logic,
lying or
propaganda, all of which contradict Wikipedia NPOV policy. The ruling is therefore largely the administrator's POV who may be unaware of the behaviour of the other party.
3. In order for the 'personal attack' to be personal, a person needs to be explicitly named. Since no such person was named in the cited evidence against me, the attack could only have been directed at the
line of argument offered by the opposers of the 'proposal to move', which was in part
lacking in supporting evidence, and therefore
deceptive. In fact the proposition that I directed a personal attack contradicts my personal values that "one talks about ideas and not people"
4. If I am accused of
assumptions of bad faith, then I submit that the action of the other party was in fact the precursor of the 'request for move' as a means of
remedies in equity due to my inability to
assume good faith given the action of renaming the article in the first place, which, without discussion, was tantamount to negation of good faith as per Wikipedia's policy that "Bad faith editing can include deliberate disruption just to prove a point, playing games with policies, and vandalism". In this case the points being attempted to be proven are that: a) the article is focused on places in the event name and not on the historical event itself, and b) that
Romanian and
European Union naming policy over-rides that of
WP:UE,
WP:MILMOS#NAME, and
WP:ROR, for which I can find no evidence in Wikipedia policy.
5. That in any case, I could not be warned under the Digwuren enforcement as an "editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe" since the article is intended to be an NPOV description of of a military operation by an armed force which at one time could be claimed to have been present in Europe, Asia, Africa, the Pacific Ocean and the Arctic. It is not a topic related to Eastern Europe despite being situated in Eastern Europe in the same way that all discussion of
Architecture will inevitably include Eastern Europe. This would require similar enforcements to be enacted every time any editor chose to document operations by the Soviet Army in any of these global regions should anyone fund them controversial, or any topic that might include Eastern Europe, which is a large majority of Wikipedia content.
I look forward to my user name being cleared of these accusations.
Thank you -- mrg3105 mrg3105 00:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's been a month of being criticised at the RfCs, a month and a half before that was spent criticising me at the case, and the actual block was back in September. Can we accept that I am sufficiently cautioned and throw out the case, which was accepted as a "test case", but actually worked out to a "torment the admin who's undergoing exams, money problems, and so on" for several months. Can we accept that I am sufficiently chastened by now, and let me get on with my life? Adam Cuerden talk 21:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
==== Request for block log annotation (Whig) 8uut Regardless of whatever disposition the ArbCom would like to make of the Matthew Hoffman case, I would request an annotation to my block log. Since Adam declines to do this himself, I would ask the ArbCom to review his blocks of my account. — Whig ( talk) 00:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is there any chance the wording of the "discretionary sanctions" remedy could be tweaked to allow uninvolved admins to place a specific article (or closely related set of articles, if necessary), on article probation? I believe this would help, given the current thread at WP:AE and attendant squabbling at Jewish lobby. I suppose you could argue that article probation here might be redundant (seeing as all Arab-Israeli articles are kind of on article probation anyway) but it helps as a solution on especially problematic articles - the tag at the top lets people know there is a long-term issue. Furthermore, it means the article as a whole can be monitored and you don't have to pick through contributions elsewhere if deciding when to topic-ban. Best, Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 17:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) The remedies were deliberately wide, to indicate in a way, simply, that we feel that
Note that a stricter application of "drawing a line on unproductive behavior" is not the same as "anything an admin does will be okay". However a user who cannot or will not take note of the need to edit productively and appropriately in their conduct (" WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT"), has now basically got only two choices in this arena: voluntarily do not edit there, or be prevented from editing in an unhelpful manner, by admin action. What counts as "unproductive" or "inappropriate" is pretty much "any action that contradicts high quality collaborative creation of a neutral encyclopedia article for readers".
Bottom line: the encyclopedic community is not expected to endorse some areas being a perrenial edit war, for any reason, and the belief that somehow they should, is misplaced. Disputes are fine provided they are carried out appropriately, which includes non-disruption, listening to uninvolved administrators, and editors actively and genuinely working to achieve resolution via NPOV.
An approximate summary of my own personal thoughts. If in doubt the remedy wording overrides any comment I might make. FT2 ( Talk | email) 01:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Generally considered pseudoscience et seq., is homeopathy generally considered pseudoscience, or just questionable science? MilesAgain ( talk) 12:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What is going on at Talk:Homeopathy is disgraceful. The pro-homeopathy editors are running amok, inventing new rules, bringing in friendly administrators to ban people for viewpoint-related reasons, and placing "incivility" warnings on the talk pages of anyone who tries to speak up for reason and proper Wikipedia procedure. They have already gotten one of their pocket admins to pre-emptively warn known pro-science editors that they have lovely Wikipedia accounts and it would be a shame if anything happened to them. Said admin has openly admitted that he has placed official warnings on the pages of people who have not yet broken any rules, because he thinks they MIGHT break rules in the future! While the pro-science people are being bullied off the page by an obsessively dedicated gang of fanatics, the anti-science people use personal attacks, threats, false accusations that the pro-science people are spammers or sock puppets, mocking of the citation policies, and the continual attempt to turn the talk page into a discussion of the article's subject, and instead of getting discipline, they get Barnstars and guardian angel admins who undo any penalties. The page is an absolute mess as a result. Someone needs to intervene. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 18:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me what is wrong with following WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:RS, WP:FRINGE and so on and maintaining wikipedia policies and rules on these pages?-- Filll ( talk) 18:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that if this is the case, that admins should take note of this and act accordingly.-- Filll ( talk) 20:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is an ongoing problem with articles covering fringe scientific topics. As seen in the above case request, fringe articles are clearly targeted by a determined group of editors interested in inflating the legitimacy of the topics and de-weighting the scientific or evidence-based view. It is part of the wikipedia way of doing things that neither admins, nor arbcom, can make content rulings. Admins could be given more advanced tools for dealing with disruption, though.
Two prior cases,
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience and
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/ScienceApologist, dealt with narrow topics and resulted in bans for a few single-purpose editors and "cautions" to ScienceApologist. As a result of
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist, Martinphi is placed on probation and ScienceApologist on civility parole, but these remedies do not begin to address the broad range of disruptive behavior and continual disruption at multiple articles. There have been multiple complaints filed against ScienceApologist, mostly groundless or incredibly minor, by editors seemingly more interested in getting rid of him than editing collaboratively, and ScienceApologist has unfortunately taken the bait more than once and responded in an inappropriate manner. There has also been edit warring on multiple articles, and at least two three disputed articles are currently protected.
I believe that a broad article probation covering the entire topic is needed to give admins the tools to deal with this long-running battle. I propose giving admins discretion to ban individual editors from pages they edit disruptively, for the short or long term, enforceable by blocking, and/or to place editors on revert limitation. Because the three previous cases have resulted in only probation for one editor and civility parole for a second, out of a large group of interested editors, has not given administrators an effective means of dealing with this long-term problem area. Thatcher 23:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
(Unindented) If I may, here are two diffs the underscore the problem we are having with moving forward on many of these pages. [10] [11] I am not certain that admin tools alone will solve this problem. Regardless of the merits, I suspect admins, in good faith, could be found who would support both sides of these discussions. There are also admins, who in good faith, believe that discouraging "minority or fringe views" are more important than civility. Because of that, I am concern about the misuse of additional tools against editors who support the inclusion of RS/V minority views on fringe topics. Anthon01 ( talk) 07:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Two questions here: (1) How can you reliably distinguish single-purpose and argumentative-but-new editors from new editors? To be frank, I don't trust the judgment of some administrators involved in this area when they label some editors as SPAs and trolls. (2) Under these sort of restrictions, what would have happened to User:MatthewHoffman? Would he have been indefinitely blocked? Should indefinite blocks be handed out as liberally as they are? (I see the provision here says that the blocks should be escalating - a point I wholeheartedly agree with). OK, that was more than two questions, but I don't want to see editors who participate constructively on talk pages banned merely because they argue for the wrong weight in an article. They can be wrong without being disruptive. Carcharoth ( talk) 16:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I would support wholeheartedly these new restrictions. I think we have been too accommodating so far and that has not resolved much. These articles can and should be able to achieve NPOV and stability if the opposing parties would allow/encourage wider participation. I attempted offer help at the Quackwatch article and some other articles, but iy is extremely tedious and after a while whatever gains are made, are lost again in the never ending disputes. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I would remove the ""vexatious litigation" item, though. Users need to have a way to alert admins and others without the fear that if they do, they will get dinged. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Isn't "vexatious litigation" a self-correcting problem? Because anyone who brings (for example) a request for arbitration, becomes subject to that arbitration... I'd also like to note that this whole matter of "vexatious litigation" really seems to be a veiled reference to Martinphi's request above - which is in its essence, no different from the one we are commenting on here, except that it was brought by an involved party, and was therefore couched in more one-sided terms. Dlabtot ( talk) 19:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think everyone should take a moment of reflection here - there are people who are compensated to cast doubt on modern science - they are professional PR individuals. There are no individuals compensated to set the record straight - those people are required to be volunteers who love knowledge. This is a real and substantial problem, and it resonates throughout this project. The difference between the two is obvious and readily transparent. PouponOnToast ( talk) 22:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Matt Sanchez was recently banned for a period of one year, however he was today (06 Feb 2008) caught editing whilst using a self identifying sockpuppet, apparently with the express purpose of dealing with the article we hold on him, and in particular, a photo which could facilitate identity theft, according to Matt.
Blocking the account and saying the user is banned doesn't make this problem go away however, Wikipedia has an article on the editor in question and it must comply with all the policies that are applicable to the page, WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:NPOV etc. It is not unreasonable for this user to expect that he can communicate with Wikipedia and ensure that the article is compliant with our policies.
In an ideal world, such communication would be through the m:OTRS system, however there are numerous backlogs and even in an ideal world, OTRS often takes time to deal with tickets, so problems often go unresolved for a few hours. This being the case, there really needs to be an appropriate clause in Matt's ban here which permits him to comment on the article on-wiki, in order that any changes can be made, as necessary. The article in question is reasonably popular, with around 200 edits last month (January), and it's an article that does tend to require protection occasionally, there are edit wars over the article and it does tend to stray from complying with our policies on occasion.
I'm hoping that the Committee will look at permitting Matt the ability to edit, perhaps just his talk page, and we could then transclude that onto a subpage of the article's talk page, in order that his concerns can be addressed and acted upon if necessary. Nick ( talk) 17:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I know normally OTRS would be the way to go, and I've asked that in future he's nudged towards us, but there's pretty big backlogs at the moment we're trying to deal with, it could be a while before we get to his message, he knows how to edit Wikipedia, surely we can ask that he raises concerns on-wiki so that they may be addressed. I'm not talking about genuine editing privileges, simply the ability to comment on his own biography as necessary. Nick ( talk) 10:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I just want to point out, as if we don't all know, that Matt has plenty of blogspace and several private emails in case he wants to comment on his article. Wjhonson ( talk) 18:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
(Following comment by Sam Blacketer):
We also don't know who that is, anyone could have registered that username. Regardless of the provocation, Sanchez' behavior was pretty foul, and while rehabilitation is not impossible, it is certainly too soon. It will be important to demonstrate (for example) that he can work civilly and productively with the OTRS volunteers.
Thatcher 20:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Jay*Jay ( talk · contribs) has started a similar discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee#BLP_concerns_and_ArbCom-banned_editors. As far as I know, the Bluemarine account is compromised/hacked/doing-very-strange-things, so unprotecting that talk page is not useful until that has been addressed. John Vandenberg ( talk) 10:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The arbitration case has only just closed and I think it is a bit too soon to go changing the finding. Matt Sanchez had his editing privileges withdrawn because he misused them in attacking other users, and there is no indication so far that he has undergone an epiphany. In any case, of his three known accounts, only one has its talk page protected, so he is able to use the others to communicate. With OTRS, the simpler factual corrections are normally the quickest to be made. Sam Blacketer ( talk) 19:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Enforcing the remedy in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/DreamGuy 2 as well as having any idea when DreamGuy is editing and who he is, which is important in light of his past behavior, is becoming increasingly difficult because of his decision to edit anonymously much of the time. As CheckUser, this puts me in an awkward situation because I don't want to have to be the one to carry out all the enforcement for DreamGuy, but at the same time, I don't want to have to out someone's IP unless there had actually been a violation (which another admin should decide, but which would be a waste of time if it's not him...). I would ask that ArbCom pass a motion requiring him to edit using only his DreamGuy account. Thanks. (See Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/DreamGuy, [12], Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Dreamguy 2, Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/DreamGuy_2#Elonka.27s_DreamGuy_report, etc. for evidence of the issue.) Dmcdevit· t 21:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
If Dmcdevit feels it has come to that, then I am lifting my prior objections. DG is free to present his case, however. I will drop him a note. El_C 22:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
(In response to DreamGuy's post):
Yes, it's a concern that Elonka has still failed to cite the diffs promised, and that continues to reflect poorly on her. Still, I notice you often don't use edit summaries; why not always use edit summaries, and check after every edit to see if you were logged in or not, if not, add another minor edit and sign it as DG in the edit summary. Simple enough, no?
El_C 22:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I've never made an edit while anonymous that wasn't obviously me. It seems odd that I would be accused of being deceptive when it's pretty rapidly determined who's who. The simple answer when people continuously file check user claims is to tell them to stop wasting your time with bogus reports. You asked them to point out some alleged wrongdoing that would justify a checkuser, they refused to do so, instead assuming bad faith. I can't guarantee that I will always be signed on, but I can guarantee that I will never deny it's me when it isso there can be no question of any alleged deception. If Wikipedia can come up with a way to make it so I get automatically signed in even if my cookie runs out or the ISP switches my IP address, fine, but I think it's ridiculous and impractical to insist I be signed on when no good reason is given for it. It's just people desperate to come up with anything they can as an alleged sign of wrongdoing. But a better way to solve this is to tell people falsely filing sockpuppet accusations to knock it off. DreamGuy ( talk) 20:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Some days ago I requested an RfCU on Dreamguy as I suspected that he was using a sockpuppet to edit again after having been warned previously on several occasions not to (see here [13]). Indeed, because of his refusal to log on when editing he was blocked for 72 hours [14]. It is my belief that Dreamguy is using an anon IP to edit again, hence my RfCU. The Checkuser request seems to have stalled. Can an admin take a look at my request please? My concern is that Dreamguy has edited the same articles (eg Jack the Ripper and The Whitechapel Murders (1888-91),etc) using several anon accounts, all of them supporting edits made by Dreamguy and/or each other, giving the appearance of consensus from several different editors when in fact it is possibly only one, using what appear to be a variety of sockpuppets (see see this [15] and this [16] and this [17] and this [18] and this [19] in support). Jack1956 ( talk) 21:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I find this particular comment by DG...odd: "It seems odd that I would be accused of being deceptive when it's pretty rapidly determined who's who". Actually, it isn't, and that's part of the problem. In October of last year, it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Dreamguy violated 3RR and acted uncivilly, and because these violations occurred through his usage of his primary account and a back-up anon, the connection wasn't immediately uncovered and reported until after the 3RR and complaints grew stale (El_C and Dmcdevit declined to pursue on these grounds, and the RfCU was stalled while awaiting arbcom/an/i discussions stall). To date, Dreamguy has evaded any and all questions about his activitiies under that (or any, really) anon IP, even when specifically questioned about such by DickLyon.
This wacky excuse of Greamguy's - not knowing he's been signed out - could be true the first time it comes up, might be true the second time, and could remotely be true the third time, but by the fourth such complaint by unconnected editors, its time to for the editor in question to either voluntarily adjust their behavior, or to have it adjusted for them. That the user has refused to admit when questioned as to his anon status seems a clear indication that he is aware that he is doing wrong, and knows that his admission would be damning. Succinctly, any claim of 'oops, I didn't know' rings false.
Because of the ArbCom enforcement complaint in October, I have grown to mistrust DG's motives for editing anonymously. Clearly, he feels that he should be able to enjoy the same freedom to enjoy anonymously that El-C, Dmcdevit or most other users enjoy. Unfortunately, Dreamguy is under behavioral restrictions, which require monitoring for incidents of uncivil behavior. To me, this would seem to lessen (if not eliminate) that freedom to edit anonymously - especially those articles he contributes to under his primary account.
I think that El_C's suggestion that Dreamguy police his own awareness of his IP to be unrealistically optimistic. If Dreamguy were at all inclined to do so, he would have taken these steps the first four times the subject was broached (with at least two of them administrative-level complaints). Unfortunately, Dmdevit's request for ArbCom to pass a motion (requiring Dreamguy to edit using only his primary account) is the proportionate and proper course of action. This would act as a strong incentive for DG to police his online status more vigorously, as a failure to do so would result in a loss of editing privileges. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Dmcdevit's request seems reasonable to me. -- Deskana (talk) 21:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Motion to add an additional remedy, as follows:
2) DreamGuy is restricted to using one and only one account to edit, and may not edit as an unlogged-in IP. He is to inform the Committee of the account he has selected, if not
DreamGuy, and must obtain the Committee's approval if he wishes to begin using a different account.
The motion is carried. A Clerk should please post and notify. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
When I made my previous appeal request a month ago, I was told to wait until February because at that point the arbitrators would have to look at whether or not to permanently lift my article parole, and that it would be more convenient for them to also review my other restrictions at the same time. I am unsure whether it is necessary to make a request about this; I was told by an arbitrator that the ArbCom intended to look at the matter regardless, but that it would still be helpful if I mentioned the appeal here. Everyking ( talk) 06:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Everyking, my view is that almost all of the restrictions can be lifted at this time, but there have been reservations expressed about lifting the restriction on your interacting with Phil Sandifer (Snowspinner) based upon the nature and history of your interactions with this user in the past. Could you kindly comment on whether maintaining this restriction in effect would have a substantial negative effect upon you or other editors. Thank you. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 14:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I want to point out that motion 2 is almost exactly the same as the status quo. The only (slight) difference is that the music parole is terminated (it is now merely suspended); the other things that would be terminated according to remedy 2 were already terminated in November. So a vote for motion 2 is a vote for no change. I also am confused that FT2 says that motion 1 lifts all restrictions, including the one regarding Phil, but the actual motion says that the restriction on interacting with Phil would remain in effect. I feel I presented three reasonable suggestions about what could replace that remedy while still addressing arbitrator concerns and I would hope they could be given some consideration. But at the same time, I don't want to confuse or complicate the issue further, considering the arbitrators are presently split between the two motions. Everyking ( talk) 04:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
If motion 2 succeeds, I would like the arbitrators to explain to me what I can do to get these restrictions lifted in the future. I'm sure the arbitrators wouldn't keep a penalty on me unconditionally, regardless of what I do. Everyking ( talk) 00:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Is my understanding of Amended Remedy 4 -- that Everyking is prohibited from commenting on admin actions -- period/full stop -- correct, or am I thinking of a different, now-expired remedy? Or is it that Everyking is restricted from commenting only if certain specified conditions (such as location of the criticism or tone of criticism) are true? I'd like to be sure before commenting on specifics. -- Calton | Talk 14:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I personally believe that Everyking should have all remaining sanctions lifted. I've interacted a few times with Everyking in the past few months, and every time I have I've found him to be courteous and intelligent. I think any problems he's had in the past have been addressed, and that he's learned from them, so I see little reason for any sanctions on him to continue. I very much doubt that Everyking would work to have his sanctions removed and then do something to have them re-instated. Like Newyorkbrad, I too consider Everyking to be a user in good standing. Acalamari 17:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I am unsure about whether I am too late to give my opinion on this matter; I would have given it sooner, had it not been for my short break. However, I would now like to express my trust in Everyking, and my feeling that all of his "vices", as it were, be lifted. I have interacted with Everyking in past, and I believe that these sancitions are no longer needed. Thanks, -- Anonymous Dissident Talk 01:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This case dates back to 2005; and had to be re-opened on three subsequent occasions for continuing issues between 2005 and July 2006. The issues kept trying to come back, it would seem. However, in the last 18 months, there has been comparative peace, and EveryKing now wants to ask, reasonably, if the issue (close to 2 years old) can be closed and all restrictions lifted.
Ordinarily I'd be inclined to agree, subject to checking with other arbitrators (with longer memories) whether matters have indeed been reasonable since then. That is the view of motion #1. However there was an incident in October 2007 which looks like it has left Kirill with concerns. The matter was resolved civilly, and Everyking was willing to offer a reasonable compromise after some discussion and initial heel-digging, and was unblocked. The agreement seems to have worked that time. But I can see why concerns may linger on conduct issues, and why perhaps motion 2 is proposed also.
The differences between the two are remedies 5 ("required to familiarize himself with the particulars of a situation before commenting on it") and harassment/enforcement, would persist under motion #2. Does Everyking still need the protection of these to prevent him (and the community) from such conduct issues in future, or without them, will he still keep himself well? Or does the general track record since 2006, and the at least bearable handling of the above incident, suggest they are no longer needed? That's the issue. Will opine when I've considered a bit more. FT2 ( Talk | email) 02:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Motion 1:
Support:
Oppose:
Abstain:
Motion 2:
Support:
Oppose:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
It is expected that the article will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, that information contained in it will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources. The article may be reviewed on the motion of any arbitrator, or upon acceptance by the Arbitration Committee of a motion made by any user. Users whose editing is disruptive may be banned or their editing restricted as the result of a review.
This remedy, passed on the Free Republic RfArb, unfortunately has lacked teeth, and the page has had to be protected for numerous edit wars between Eschoir (who has a conflict of interest after being involved in legal action initated by Free Republic) and several accounts, largely believed to be sock or meat puppets of community banned (and ArbCom endorsed Ban) User:BryanFromPalatine. See this edit for evidence submitted by :Lawrence Cohen as a report requested by CheckUser User:Lar. I'd like to formally request that the Arbitration Committee modify the above sanction in the following way.
It is expected that the article will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, that information contained in it will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources. The article may be reviewed on the motion of any uninvolved administrator. Users whose editing is disruptive may be banned or their editing restricted as the result of a review.
Thank you. SirFozzie ( talk) 21:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The standard article probation wording seems to have been developed after the Free Republic case. It would be:
Additionally, I support SirFozzie's request for better enforcement. Jehochman Talk 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
(In response to Jehochman 2.1):
Support.
Lawrence §
t/
e 23:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Esteemed SirFozzie: I certainly do not wish to appear disputatious, but when was it determined that I have a current COI with anybody? What evidence was taken and who heard it? It was formerly determined, and I will allow, that I had a COI, seven years ago. France had a COI with Germany in 1940, but I believe that dispute settled, too, and the French may edit the Merkel page to this day. Eschoir ( talk) 00:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
You may have missed Neutral Good, he just announced a wikibreak Eschoir ( talk) 14:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
That sure reads like: You've got a really nice little night club here, Vinnie, I'd hate to see anythin' bad happen to it. Extortion is such a harsh word. Eschoir ( talk) 23:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Part of this discussion took place prior to the new format, and is in a threaded style which is now not in use. Future comments in individual sections. Thanks! - FT2 |
(In response to Proposed Motion):
I support all except this quibble
editors who have or may reasonably be perceived as having a conflict of interest,
I may be wrong or just presumptuous, but COI is a term of art, with a particular definition meant to describe a factual state. Using language such as 'may reasonably be percieved as having a COI' would would equate opinion with fact. A 'reasonable' standard is less stringent than a 'preponderance' standard, and certainly not a 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard. Recast the sentence thus: "Editors who are or may reasonably be perceived as being pregnant . . ." and see how absurd that standard is.
"All editors" means all editors. The gloss on SPAs and COIs is unnecessary, and potentially harmful, and I urge thoughtful reflection before adoption of such language. Eschoir ( talk) 04:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Eschoir
I have no problem with any of those statements. The issue is, can the community use them to deal with the issue. My feeling is they can. FT2 ( Talk | email) 08:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Motion:
Support:
Oppose:
Abstain:
The motion is adopted. The Clerk will kindly post and notify. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 17:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I am writing this for User:Octavian history [20] because his account was blocked by an admin who is abusing his powers. Here is what he wrote:
"Dear Wikipedia admins, I am a major contributor to Wikipedia and have been blocked for no reason. Wanted to ask for your help. As a scholar and historian I have tried very hard to improve Wikipedia and make it a better place.
User Gyrofrog (real name [redacted]) is an admin who is abusing his powers and has blocked my account (Octavian history) indefinitely for absolutely no reason. I can prove he has stalked my every move and has lead a terror campaign against me from the minute I started on wiki! He is absolutely obsessed with my every move and is a very unjust individual. He claims he blocked me because I am a "sock puppet", but that is absolutely not true. A few people do use this computer at the office and I did not know they can't write about the same subject. Gyro claims I have a million sock puppets, but that claim is 100% false. I have asked the two individuals at my office to never write about the same subject again, so it does not any confusion.
Wiki rule says "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users". I have never damaged Wikipedia and only helped construct over 1200 edits.
I have not done anything wrong, but have made over a 1200 constructive edits and created many new topics of great interest with factual citations. I started and convinced the scientific community on wiki to correct and change the name of Charles Darwin's book On the Origin of Species.
I have not only made over a thousand constructive edits, but I have also created dozens of important pages such as:
Beverly Hills Police Department
Abraham Lincoln's Cooper Union speech
Marina Oswald Porter (Lee Harvey Oswald's wife, the assasin of President Kennedy)
Please restore my account and please tell me how to stop gyrofrog from harassing and stalking me. Thank you very much for your time!!!
Sincerely, Octavian history"-- Wiki-user3728 ( talk) 12:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have rechecked the findings at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Johnyajohn. It is clear that the following accounts have been operated from the same computer and the same internet connection: Octavian history ( talk · contribs); Hasan075 ( talk · contribs); Wallststockguy ( talk · contribs); The-Scriptorium ( talk · contribs); Equinoximus ( talk · contribs); Monroebuffzz204 ( talk · contribs); Sam838south ( talk · contribs); Sarazip1 ( talk · contribs). Other listed accounts are too old to check. Detailed records will be made available to the Arbitrators on request. Sadly, checkuser is not enabled with a time-travelling reverse web-cam, so claims of family/friends/etc editing will have to evaluated on behavioral as well as technical grounds. However, one particular series of edits on 19 January may shed light on this request.
Note that Wiki-user3728 ( talk · contribs) and Holy-wiki ( talk · contribs) are also coming from the same connection and computer. Thatcher 05:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
As I am specifically named in Wiki-user3728's request, and as I am the blocking admin, I am directly involved. As such, the requester should have (but did not) notify me, as per step 4 in the instructions at the top of this section. I am compelled to point out that the requester has moved on to impugning my name ( "sick individuals like Gyrofrog"). Over the course of our interactions I have never addressed Octavian_history in such a manner (nor, for that matter, anyone else on Wikipedia). Whatever the ultimate outcome, I am asking that Wiki-user3728, Octavian_history, et al be further enjoined from making personal attacks against me, including accusations of stalking, obsession, etc. (e.g. this series of edits). As for Octavian_history's block, I think the checkuser results speak for themselves (particularly the edits made four minutes apart from 2 accounts), but also that (at least in hindsight) the conflict of interest described at User_talk:Johnyajohn#June_2007 was and is sufficient. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Link to original case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge
Notification of involved users:
In Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ferrylodge, Ferrylodge ( talk · contribs) was identified as having "a long history of disruptive editing on topics related to pregnancy and abortion." He was placed under indefinite sanction: "Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing."
Recently Ferrylodge has taken what I consider to be a very disruptive tack on Talk:Abortion. I posted diffs and details here at WP:AE, because I believe that his behavior represented a continuation of his disruptive and tendentious approach to abortion-related articles sanctioned in the ArbCom case. My filing was reviewed by User:GRBerry, who raised the very sensible issue that the sanction applies to "articles" and likely not to associated talk pages.
Talk:Abortion and associated pages are contentious under the best of circumstances. Based on the diffs and evidence in my AE report, I believe that Ferrylodge is disrupting these talk pages with tendentious, circular arguments, presumptions of bad faith, extensive wikilawyering, and the like. I'm asking, therefore, that the sanction from his case be amended to read: "Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any page which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing." This would include talk pages, WikiProjects, and the like, though presumably somewhat greater latitude would be provided on these pages than in article-space. I believe this extension is justified based on his lengthy history and ongoing behavior. MastCell Talk 21:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
In interpreting the case, I noted that the committee explicitly chose the passed wording over a prior version that said "article or other page". The other difference was that the prior version was "is banned" and the passed version is "uninvolved administrator may ban". I don't know which difference the committee was focusing on.
There has been a prior request for clarification on this issue, which no committee member responded to. It is logged at Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge/Proposed decision#More clarification requested. Thatcher then said "The remedy would include any page related to abortion, including article talk pages, user talk pages (if an abortion-related discussion is carried on there), templates, policies, wikiprojects, AfDs, you name it. This has been established in past clarifications of other cases. The point of the remedy is to stop Ferrylodge from being disruptive, wherever it occurs. I personally would allow more freedom on talk pages, but there still will be an actionable level of disruption." I too am certainly going to allow more freedom in discussion venues (talk pages, XfDs, and the like).
I also note Kirill's comment earlier today on the Macedonia case: "'Page' (as opposed to the narrower 'article') applies to all namespaces. Kirill 13:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC) Since Thatcher (who has more WP:AE experience than I) and I are reading the tea leaves differently, clarification may well be in order even if expansion isn't.
There is currently nothing logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge#Log of blocks and bans. GRBerry 22:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I’ve responded to Mastcell at the Arbitration Enforcement proceeding that he initiated, and at the pertinent article talk page.
I hope that any further decision or clarification by ArbCom in this matter will be prospective only (which may be Mastcell’s intent anyway). I also hope that my comments at the pertinent talk page will not be viewed in isolation, but rather ArbCom should be free to review the behavior of all involved people, including "trusted members of the community."
Mastcell does not object to any article edit that I made. He objects to my talk page comments. And Mastcell is not denying that those comments followed up on a false statement that he had inserted into the article text, with an accompanying footnote in which Mastcell cited a POV newspaper editorial that did not even support the false statement that he was inserting into the article text. As far as I know, Mastcell does not deny any of this, but rather he deems all of this context irrelevant. It is very relevant. Unlike Mastcell, I did not disrupt the article text at all, and no one accuses me of having done so.
At the corresponding article talk page, Mastcell made numerous false allegations and personal attacks against me. He falsely accused me of “quote-mining a primary source” and of using “ a series of quotes from primary sources to advance your opinion” and “massag[ing] the primary sources” and “violat[ing] WP:SYN to mine quotes from a primary source” and trying to “set aside WP:NOR.”
I respectfully submit to ArbCom that all of these wiki-lawyering accusations by Mastcell were blatantly false. I do not see how ArbCom could agree to Mastcell’s present request without examining whether those accusations by Mastcell were indeed blatantly false.
It is tendentious for an Admin to make a stream of false accusations at an article talk page, while also inserting false material and POV footnotes into the article text. You may disregard these assertions of mine because Mastcell is a “trusted member of the community.” However, I urge you to please look at the facts. The discussion at the article talk page became heated, and Mastcell was as much a part of the heat as myself, if not more so. I was responding to irresponsible edits by Mastcell (and one other editor in particular) in the article text, and responding to irresponsible accusations against me by Mastcell (and one other editor in particular) at the article talk page. I have tried my best to avoid causing what even the most biased person might consider disruption of any article text covered by the Arbcom decision, and no one accuses me of having done so. Ferrylodge ( talk) 22:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of whether this specific decision was meant to include talk pages, having looked at the edits to which Mastcell objects, I see nothing disruptive in them. Now I haven't been at all involved in the history of that page, so I don't know how it might seem to someone who is involved, but the essence of Mastcell's complaint seems to be that in making a perfectly valid edit, Ferrylodge cynically assumed that someone would revert it, and got his response in first, so to speak. Mastcell seems to be claiming that this lack of AGF was inherently disruptive, and that Ferrylodge was under an obligation to pretend that he expected his edit to be accepted in good grace, simply because it was true, and only to respond once it was in fact reverted. The fact that his prediction seems to have been fulfilled would seem to me to vindicate him. And in light of his past treatment, especially the lynch mob back in September (my disgust at how he was treated caused me to withdraw from WP for several months), I think he's entitled to anticipate opposition to anything he does on that page, however valid, and to defend his edits as if they had already been challenged. At least that's how it appears to this utterly uninvolved editor (I only knew about this action because I had Ferrylodge's talk page on my watch list from when I made an edit to it way back when). -- Zsero ( talk) 23:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for the late participation; I just noticed this.
Like Zsero, I also can see no evidence at all of disruptive editing by Ferrylodge. I went to Ferrylodge's contribs, and read more of his contributions for myself. I did not read them all -- he's been a very prolific contributor for several years, on many topics. But what I found was consistently careful, well-written, well-sourced information from a thoughtful and careful contributor who obviously knows what he's talking about. Ferrylodge has diligently sought to make constructive contributions, in the face of tendentious POV-pushing by MastCell, IronAngelAlice, and a few others.
Note that MastCell's ally, IronAngelAlice, is a one-topic editor who has a history of abusive behavior using multiple accounts. Her previous ID was permanently blocked for it, and this one was blocked for a week, but she's at it again.
MastCell is also trying to get another excellent contributor, Strider12, banned. Strider12 and Ferrylodge are the two editors who have made the most constructive, well-sourced contributions to the abortion-related articles. I am truly appalled. NCdave ( talk) 14:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm hesitant to even comment as I'm afraid my "taking sides" will be used by MastCell to further her attacks on me. But, here I go...
I'm fairly new to Wikipedia and don't know any of the history of Ferrylodge or why s/he was banned. As I saw it, Ferrylodge did nothing except point out that the cited sources (from pro-choice leaning publications) conflicted with the transcript and invited others to comment and edit. But apparantly knowing Ferrylodge was under a ban, MastCell was quick to start alleging that he was being disruptive.
I can also say that I had asked on several occasions on the abortion mental health talk page what the full context of the Koop "miniscule" qoute was because it was out of sync with all the other published statements he had made. No one provided the full statement and question until Ferrylodge provided it. Therefore, I consider it a contribution.
But I was also unsurprised by MastCell's wikilawyering to minimize the significance of this proof that the phrase was actually used by Congressman Weiss and misattributed to Koop. In this case Ferrylodge was demonstrating from a primary source (congressional transcripts) that the secondary sources relied upon by MastCell were not reliable regarding this particular fact.
In many similar cases, when I have supplied material from reliable secondary sources, including multiple peer reviewed studies of the highest quality, MastCell and/or others encouraged by MastCell have deleted them with no justification other than that the findings and opinions of experts who disagree with their small set of preferred sources should not be included without their consent..."consensus"...which is never to be given. In my view, this unrelenting pattern of deleting reliable sources is a clear violation of the ArbCom ruling that removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption 1. In my view, it is MastCell and his/her cohorts whose deletes s/he defends, who is disruptively deleting material from this article.
It has been my experience that MastCell has a long history of trying to suppress my contributions regarding abortion and mental health, and most of this time there have been no abortion critics participating in the conversation except myself. My take on this complaint is that MastCell is upset that Ferrylodge came in with evidence that supported my concerns and that Ferrylodge appears to be a threat to his/her attempts to portray Srider12 as always wrong.
Fundamentally, this argument is not about editors or contributions, it is about the most contentious issue of the day, abortion, and the belief of some editors that any fact or source that does not contribute to the whitewash of the abortion/mental health effects is suspect and should be dismissed, minimized, or obstructed with demands for "consensus".-- Strider12 ( talk) 21:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
We are currently experiencing edit wars, blanking, vandalism, ethnic ranting and various other forms of disruptive editing on a variety of different content items relating to Kosovo, including articles, talk pages, images, templates, categories etc. I'd be grateful if an arbitrator could confirm that the general sanction concerning Balkans-related articles that was passed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia applies to all namespaces within the area of conflict, not just to the narrower category of "pages" (the wording used in the sanction). I presume it does but I'd like to have it on the record for clarity's sake. -- ChrisO ( talk) 20:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Update -- If no objections are received in 5 days I'd suggest a clerk closes this as "confirmed", and notes this as a standard response applicable to other cases with the same basic question. FT2 ( Talk | email)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm requesting clarification as regards this FoF and this remedy. I've just blocked said user, RJ CG ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for edit-warring yet again. Time for the "summary bans" bit to be enforced? Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 23:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I see that Kirill is wishing to apply additional remedies from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles. What's the scope? I don't think it is necessary in Estonia related articles, there has hardly been any activity, let alone disputes, with only User:RJ CG popping his head in briefly after a long break before being promptly blocked for two weeks for 3RR. As I said previously, Wikiproject Estonia has been chilled to the bone with most of the editors leaving the project, with no significant articles created or expanded, except for football it seems. I suppose if you are going to turn the screws even tighter, how about also adding:
Thanks. Martintg ( talk) 06:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Unlike Israeli-Palestinian conflict, "Eastern European subjects" are not clearly defined. Does this include every Russia-related topic, like Russia-China relations or Soviet intelligence operations in the United States? If we want to follow the "Israeli-Palestinian" remedy, the "conflict area" should be clearly defined, say "Russian-Polish" or "Russian-Estonian" conflicts. Anything that is not area of conflict (e.g. articles on Russian-Turkish subjects or internal Russian affairs) do not belong there. Could you please clarify which subjects are covered? Biophys ( talk) 22:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know better what's being defined as the scope of applicability and what, if any, specific history of warnings is being proposed as moving sanctions to the "next level." My concern is that as the scope is expanded, "uninvolved" will also extend to "uninformed"--there has to be substantial awareness of editors' past histories in order to draw an objective judgement. If you just go by who accuses whom in the latest trail, it's quite possible that all that happens is a blanket conviction of the guilty and the innocent--if you come in on a fight, how do you know who started it? The notion that someone who is attacked is just going to sit and smile and assume good faith is only good for one round of edits; if an editor persists in behavior that is taken as an attack, the attacked editor(s) will respond and should not be held equally to blame for any escalation. — PētersV ( talk) 00:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I have recently stumbled across Denial of the Holodomor, which I discovered while cleaning up Historical revisionism, and am startled by the level of hostility and accusations of bad faith that seem to be acceptable in this area, even towards those manifestly uninvolved. I would like some firm statements adjuring editors to read and follow WP:OR and WP:AGF, as well as some sense that adminstrators will be able to evaluate those who are 'involved' accurately, and that there will be some appealing of that judgment. Relata refero ( talk) 18:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
It must be said that "stumbled across Denial of the Holodomor" consisted of Relata refero initially deleting huge sections of referenced content on February 12th from that article without first discussing the issues or obtaining consensus on the talk page. Not the best way to introduce one self to the other editors of any article, however Relata refero's edit history only goes back to October 11, 2007, so perhaps it was inexperience. Despite this, the other editors have been exceedingly patient and civil with him/her. Martintg ( talk) 20:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I have read this but am recusing from commenting due to my involvement in that case. I will ask the others to look over this. -- Deskana (talk) 10:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
In this case, comment is probably best given in the first instance by arbitrators who were active when that case was being heard. Deferring to othes to clarify the above. FT2 ( Talk | email) 23:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am recusing myself due to my prior involvement as an administrator. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 04:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
For this motion, there are 14 active Arbitrators, so 8 votes are a majority.
Motion:
Support:
Oppose:
Abstain:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
As the committee is no doubt aware Encyclopaedia Dramatica is presently up on Deletion Review, in the form of a new draft article ( User:Shii/ED). This editorial process is constrained by findings and rulings from the MONGO case, and may well have outlived their usefulness. The case turned on the harrassment of MONGO by other users, many of whom were connected with ED. While lamentable, this shouldn't have any bearing on our ability to cover or not cover a topic: it is not necessary to endorse the existence of thing in documenting it. Our policies demand an honest editorial debate on the matter, but the broadness of remedy # 1 and the obvious personal umbrage taken by numerous editors, including at least one sitting arbitrator, precludes such a debate.
FoF # 13 states that the article was deleted because "the content of the article was mainly derived from ED and our reaction to it, there being very little other information available to use as a reliable source." Arbcom isn't supposed to make content rulings, but we sometimes sneak them in anyway through obiter dicta like that one. Real challenges have been raised as to whether this is really the case anymore, and Shii's draft article does not fit such a description. This, more than anything else, suggests that the principles which undergird the case are no longer operative.
I would request that remedy # 1 be clarified either to refer only to articles concerning specific Wikipedia users, or revoked altogether. Most things on ED aren't suitable for this wiki anyway because of our "vast policy differences." In my view the committee overreached and prejudiced editorial decisions in drafting this decision. Best, Mackensen (talk) 16:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey all...my deepest appreciation for informing me about this discussion! Seriously, an arbitration case I was named in, that appears to be on the threshold of having its major motions and remedies eliminated or severely altered and NO ONE BOTHERS TO LET ME KNOW! As can be seen by the DRV on this article, there does not seem to be a community backed consensus to restore the article that has been developed in another editor's userspace. [30]...so what brings all this up? Well, let me inform you of what I know. Firstly, over a dozen of our editors resigned due to the ongoing harassment posted about them at that website...Do we need to be so inclusive we risk losing editors just so we can be such a compendium of "knowledge"...I think not. The website is of only marginal notability at best...at best. Let me repeat my first point...I know of at least a dozen editors who quit editing here because of the stuff posted on that website. I know this because after I went through what I did with the people affiliated with that website, I received over a dozen calls for aide...at one point the possibility of suing them was considered. Phaedriel was probably the best known editor to abandon this project...thanks in no small part to that website. Second point...IF we recreate the article, then ultimately someone will link to that website...that is where my fight started. They made their MONGO article "featured" and posted it on their mainpage...I repeatedly removed those links from our article on that website and was combated by a series of trolls and other editors who for some bizarre reason did not understand that I was not going to allow them or that website to libel me via this one...I am not a pedophile as the people there have written. Phaedriel is not the things they claim about her, nor are the other "wikipedos" that they have listed, accurately depicted. For the record, the article they have on me is far from the worst...very far from it. But I am here on wikipedia to write articles and to protect our editors from harassment...I cannot do that if we, as a website, are going to turn a blind eye to this major issue just so we can be "all inclusive", especially when we are talking about a website of extremely marginal notability, that attacks our contributors, and yes, slanders and libels them. Many complain that we, right here on Wikipedia, also slander and libel people, especially in our bios...that is a serious issue, but we have the power here to do something about that. We do not have the power to make adjustments to the same (and generally far worse) slander and libel that ED presents. But we can control whether we import that nonsense here. There are still millions of articles we can write...what the heck makes having an article on ED so important? How many articles do we yet lack about various insect species, birds, plants, glaciers, people, events, places? Maybe the committee would be better off telling the dramaqueens that have started to proliferate this website to start writing articles and stop wasting our server space with their generally worthless opinions, than spending so much energy rewriting an arbitration case in which the situation hasn't changed...that website still lacks notability, it still libels our contributors, it will ultimately lead to further problems...and further time wasted here, in this particular forum. Lastly, I do have other things I can do with my time than edit here...my life is valuable to me and the friends I have made here on this website are important to me...let's not be trendy and get limp wristed about this matter...we have an obligation to do all we can to make editing here a pleasant experience...not one where we have to look over our shoulder wondering why some creep has decided that he can link to ED and attack our contributors in the process. Yes, I know, the committee does not make content rulings in most cases...well maybe you should in this matter and do so with the spirit of respect and in the interest of facilitating encyclopedia writing and the writers who contribute here and ensuring they have the ability to spend their valuable personal time in peace as much as possible.-- MONGO 07:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, this is really funny and so predictable. I just knew good ole Dtobais would show up to make his comment here...he wants Sceptre's activities examined here...lets instead examine Mr. Tobais...yes, examine via his own precious links to wikipedia review the less than appealing comments he has made about our editors...heck, lets examine his ongoing insults posted right here on this page and numerous others on wikipedia, where he neverendingly refers to those with the opposite beliefs of his on this type of subject as cabals, cliques, cadres.-- MONGO 17:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I concur that the arbitration committee has no authority to eliminate the potential for an article on encyclopedia drmatica if the community decides that there are suffcient reliable sources to be able to write a NPOV article on that subject. But I do want to reclarify that it sure is odd that anyone would be so concerned about this matter when we still lack potentially millions of articles on subjects as benign as butterflies, birds and plants.-- MONGO 00:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The ill-conceived original MONGO decision was an unwarranted attempt on the part of ArbCom to make policy, and has been continually cited ever since by a small clique that is intent on imposing censorship of links that hurt their feelings. This BADSITES concept, a really bad idea, has been resoundingly rejected by the community as a whole every time it has come up. It's time to drive a stake through its heart once and for all. *Dan T.* ( talk) 12:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The fact that we don't let millions of Muslims offended by our images of Mohammed sway our editorial decisions, but we do let the offense of a handful of Wikipedians against ED influence us, says loads about our screwy priorities. *Dan T.* ( talk) 13:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Some inquiry into the actions of User:Sceptre would seem to be warranted; he attempted to intimidate the editor who proposed deletion review of ED by referring repeatedly to earlier people who did a similar thing getting banned, and also censored the discussion using a highly expansionist interpretation of the past ArbCom ruling whereby even links to the Alexa rankings of ED were considered illegal. His actions present a poster child for why the ArbCom ruling was a bad idea and ought to be overturned. *Dan T.* ( talk) 17:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
It's funny and predictable that, rather than respond in a rational manner to my comments, MONGO instead engages in ad-hominem attacks at me. *Dan T.* ( talk) 21:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Yet another response to MONGO: OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not considered a valid argument in debates about creating or deleting articles. *Dan T.* ( talk) 00:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I note that the deletion review of Encyclopedia Dramatica recently closed as "keep deleted", which is a fair enough close. I did notice one further edit, possibly as a result of this, or maybe not. Would the arbitration committee be able to comment on whether "recreation of the article" covers Encyclopedia Dramatica being mentioned at all in Wikipedia articles? ie. either in passing in other articles, or as a paragraph about the website, or as a section or entry in a list article? I raised this possibility at the DRV, but it didn't generate much discussion (possibly I arrived at the DRV too late for many people to even read what I posted there). I noted there that a sentence mentioning Encyclopedia Dramatica had existed at Criticism of Wikipedia#Humorous criticism for at least 5.5 months with seemingly no objections. Shortly after the deletion review finished, an IP editor removed the sentence in question from the "Criticism of Wikipedia" article. I have raised the issue at Talk:Criticism of Wikipedia#Satire sentence removed. My question is, since that was to my knowledge the only reference in any Wikipedia article to Encyclopedia Dramatica, are we trying to remove any and all references to Encyclopedia Dramatica from all articles? If not, then are editors free to add "subarticle" level of material on Encyclopedia Dramatica to other Wikipedia articles where relevant? Carcharoth ( talk) 09:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
For this motion, there are 13 active Arbitrators (excluding 1 who is abstaining), so 7 votes are a majority.
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The action was taken under the premise of:
General restriction
11) Any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below. Before the restriction shall come into effect for a particular editor, that editor shall be given an official notice of it with a link to this decision.
I would like to appeal against this action and the finding of my incivility based on the following points:
1. My incivility was never explicitly stated by the administrator who imposed it despite a request to do so. Another administrator (Thatcher) simply suggesting the need for
Dispute resolution, without considering that a 'request to move' is a form of dispute resolution.
2. Under some circumstances incivility is justified such as when the Wikipedia user is found to be using methods of argument during a discussion which are easily likened to abuse of
logic,
lying or
propaganda, all of which contradict Wikipedia NPOV policy. The ruling is therefore largely the administrator's POV who may be unaware of the behaviour of the other party.
3. In order for the 'personal attack' to be personal, a person needs to be explicitly named. Since no such person was named in the cited evidence against me, the attack could only have been directed at the
line of argument offered by the opposers of the 'proposal to move', which was in part
lacking in supporting evidence, and therefore
deceptive. In fact the proposition that I directed a personal attack contradicts my personal values that "one talks about ideas and not people"
4. If I am accused of
assumptions of bad faith, then I submit that the action of the other party was in fact the precursor of the 'request for move' as a means of
remedies in equity due to my inability to
assume good faith given the action of renaming the article in the first place, which, without discussion, was tantamount to negation of good faith as per Wikipedia's policy that "Bad faith editing can include deliberate disruption just to prove a point, playing games with policies, and vandalism". In this case the points being attempted to be proven are that: a) the article is focused on places in the event name and not on the historical event itself, and b) that
Romanian and
European Union naming policy over-rides that of
WP:UE,
WP:MILMOS#NAME, and
WP:ROR, for which I can find no evidence in Wikipedia policy.
5. That in any case, I could not be warned under the Digwuren enforcement as an "editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe" since the article is intended to be an NPOV description of of a military operation by an armed force which at one time could be claimed to have been present in Europe, Asia, Africa, the Pacific Ocean and the Arctic. It is not a topic related to Eastern Europe despite being situated in Eastern Europe in the same way that all discussion of
Architecture will inevitably include Eastern Europe. This would require similar enforcements to be enacted every time any editor chose to document operations by the Soviet Army in any of these global regions should anyone fund them controversial, or any topic that might include Eastern Europe, which is a large majority of Wikipedia content.
I look forward to my user name being cleared of these accusations.
Thank you -- mrg3105 mrg3105 00:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's been a month of being criticised at the RfCs, a month and a half before that was spent criticising me at the case, and the actual block was back in September. Can we accept that I am sufficiently cautioned and throw out the case, which was accepted as a "test case", but actually worked out to a "torment the admin who's undergoing exams, money problems, and so on" for several months. Can we accept that I am sufficiently chastened by now, and let me get on with my life? Adam Cuerden talk 21:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
==== Request for block log annotation (Whig) 8uut Regardless of whatever disposition the ArbCom would like to make of the Matthew Hoffman case, I would request an annotation to my block log. Since Adam declines to do this himself, I would ask the ArbCom to review his blocks of my account. — Whig ( talk) 00:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is there any chance the wording of the "discretionary sanctions" remedy could be tweaked to allow uninvolved admins to place a specific article (or closely related set of articles, if necessary), on article probation? I believe this would help, given the current thread at WP:AE and attendant squabbling at Jewish lobby. I suppose you could argue that article probation here might be redundant (seeing as all Arab-Israeli articles are kind of on article probation anyway) but it helps as a solution on especially problematic articles - the tag at the top lets people know there is a long-term issue. Furthermore, it means the article as a whole can be monitored and you don't have to pick through contributions elsewhere if deciding when to topic-ban. Best, Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 17:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) The remedies were deliberately wide, to indicate in a way, simply, that we feel that
Note that a stricter application of "drawing a line on unproductive behavior" is not the same as "anything an admin does will be okay". However a user who cannot or will not take note of the need to edit productively and appropriately in their conduct (" WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT"), has now basically got only two choices in this arena: voluntarily do not edit there, or be prevented from editing in an unhelpful manner, by admin action. What counts as "unproductive" or "inappropriate" is pretty much "any action that contradicts high quality collaborative creation of a neutral encyclopedia article for readers".
Bottom line: the encyclopedic community is not expected to endorse some areas being a perrenial edit war, for any reason, and the belief that somehow they should, is misplaced. Disputes are fine provided they are carried out appropriately, which includes non-disruption, listening to uninvolved administrators, and editors actively and genuinely working to achieve resolution via NPOV.
An approximate summary of my own personal thoughts. If in doubt the remedy wording overrides any comment I might make. FT2 ( Talk | email) 01:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Generally considered pseudoscience et seq., is homeopathy generally considered pseudoscience, or just questionable science? MilesAgain ( talk) 12:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What is going on at Talk:Homeopathy is disgraceful. The pro-homeopathy editors are running amok, inventing new rules, bringing in friendly administrators to ban people for viewpoint-related reasons, and placing "incivility" warnings on the talk pages of anyone who tries to speak up for reason and proper Wikipedia procedure. They have already gotten one of their pocket admins to pre-emptively warn known pro-science editors that they have lovely Wikipedia accounts and it would be a shame if anything happened to them. Said admin has openly admitted that he has placed official warnings on the pages of people who have not yet broken any rules, because he thinks they MIGHT break rules in the future! While the pro-science people are being bullied off the page by an obsessively dedicated gang of fanatics, the anti-science people use personal attacks, threats, false accusations that the pro-science people are spammers or sock puppets, mocking of the citation policies, and the continual attempt to turn the talk page into a discussion of the article's subject, and instead of getting discipline, they get Barnstars and guardian angel admins who undo any penalties. The page is an absolute mess as a result. Someone needs to intervene. Randy Blackamoor ( talk) 18:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me what is wrong with following WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:RS, WP:FRINGE and so on and maintaining wikipedia policies and rules on these pages?-- Filll ( talk) 18:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that if this is the case, that admins should take note of this and act accordingly.-- Filll ( talk) 20:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is an ongoing problem with articles covering fringe scientific topics. As seen in the above case request, fringe articles are clearly targeted by a determined group of editors interested in inflating the legitimacy of the topics and de-weighting the scientific or evidence-based view. It is part of the wikipedia way of doing things that neither admins, nor arbcom, can make content rulings. Admins could be given more advanced tools for dealing with disruption, though.
Two prior cases,
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience and
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/ScienceApologist, dealt with narrow topics and resulted in bans for a few single-purpose editors and "cautions" to ScienceApologist. As a result of
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist, Martinphi is placed on probation and ScienceApologist on civility parole, but these remedies do not begin to address the broad range of disruptive behavior and continual disruption at multiple articles. There have been multiple complaints filed against ScienceApologist, mostly groundless or incredibly minor, by editors seemingly more interested in getting rid of him than editing collaboratively, and ScienceApologist has unfortunately taken the bait more than once and responded in an inappropriate manner. There has also been edit warring on multiple articles, and at least two three disputed articles are currently protected.
I believe that a broad article probation covering the entire topic is needed to give admins the tools to deal with this long-running battle. I propose giving admins discretion to ban individual editors from pages they edit disruptively, for the short or long term, enforceable by blocking, and/or to place editors on revert limitation. Because the three previous cases have resulted in only probation for one editor and civility parole for a second, out of a large group of interested editors, has not given administrators an effective means of dealing with this long-term problem area. Thatcher 23:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
(Unindented) If I may, here are two diffs the underscore the problem we are having with moving forward on many of these pages. [10] [11] I am not certain that admin tools alone will solve this problem. Regardless of the merits, I suspect admins, in good faith, could be found who would support both sides of these discussions. There are also admins, who in good faith, believe that discouraging "minority or fringe views" are more important than civility. Because of that, I am concern about the misuse of additional tools against editors who support the inclusion of RS/V minority views on fringe topics. Anthon01 ( talk) 07:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Two questions here: (1) How can you reliably distinguish single-purpose and argumentative-but-new editors from new editors? To be frank, I don't trust the judgment of some administrators involved in this area when they label some editors as SPAs and trolls. (2) Under these sort of restrictions, what would have happened to User:MatthewHoffman? Would he have been indefinitely blocked? Should indefinite blocks be handed out as liberally as they are? (I see the provision here says that the blocks should be escalating - a point I wholeheartedly agree with). OK, that was more than two questions, but I don't want to see editors who participate constructively on talk pages banned merely because they argue for the wrong weight in an article. They can be wrong without being disruptive. Carcharoth ( talk) 16:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I would support wholeheartedly these new restrictions. I think we have been too accommodating so far and that has not resolved much. These articles can and should be able to achieve NPOV and stability if the opposing parties would allow/encourage wider participation. I attempted offer help at the Quackwatch article and some other articles, but iy is extremely tedious and after a while whatever gains are made, are lost again in the never ending disputes. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I would remove the ""vexatious litigation" item, though. Users need to have a way to alert admins and others without the fear that if they do, they will get dinged. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Isn't "vexatious litigation" a self-correcting problem? Because anyone who brings (for example) a request for arbitration, becomes subject to that arbitration... I'd also like to note that this whole matter of "vexatious litigation" really seems to be a veiled reference to Martinphi's request above - which is in its essence, no different from the one we are commenting on here, except that it was brought by an involved party, and was therefore couched in more one-sided terms. Dlabtot ( talk) 19:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think everyone should take a moment of reflection here - there are people who are compensated to cast doubt on modern science - they are professional PR individuals. There are no individuals compensated to set the record straight - those people are required to be volunteers who love knowledge. This is a real and substantial problem, and it resonates throughout this project. The difference between the two is obvious and readily transparent. PouponOnToast ( talk) 22:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Matt Sanchez was recently banned for a period of one year, however he was today (06 Feb 2008) caught editing whilst using a self identifying sockpuppet, apparently with the express purpose of dealing with the article we hold on him, and in particular, a photo which could facilitate identity theft, according to Matt.
Blocking the account and saying the user is banned doesn't make this problem go away however, Wikipedia has an article on the editor in question and it must comply with all the policies that are applicable to the page, WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:NPOV etc. It is not unreasonable for this user to expect that he can communicate with Wikipedia and ensure that the article is compliant with our policies.
In an ideal world, such communication would be through the m:OTRS system, however there are numerous backlogs and even in an ideal world, OTRS often takes time to deal with tickets, so problems often go unresolved for a few hours. This being the case, there really needs to be an appropriate clause in Matt's ban here which permits him to comment on the article on-wiki, in order that any changes can be made, as necessary. The article in question is reasonably popular, with around 200 edits last month (January), and it's an article that does tend to require protection occasionally, there are edit wars over the article and it does tend to stray from complying with our policies on occasion.
I'm hoping that the Committee will look at permitting Matt the ability to edit, perhaps just his talk page, and we could then transclude that onto a subpage of the article's talk page, in order that his concerns can be addressed and acted upon if necessary. Nick ( talk) 17:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I know normally OTRS would be the way to go, and I've asked that in future he's nudged towards us, but there's pretty big backlogs at the moment we're trying to deal with, it could be a while before we get to his message, he knows how to edit Wikipedia, surely we can ask that he raises concerns on-wiki so that they may be addressed. I'm not talking about genuine editing privileges, simply the ability to comment on his own biography as necessary. Nick ( talk) 10:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I just want to point out, as if we don't all know, that Matt has plenty of blogspace and several private emails in case he wants to comment on his article. Wjhonson ( talk) 18:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
(Following comment by Sam Blacketer):
We also don't know who that is, anyone could have registered that username. Regardless of the provocation, Sanchez' behavior was pretty foul, and while rehabilitation is not impossible, it is certainly too soon. It will be important to demonstrate (for example) that he can work civilly and productively with the OTRS volunteers.
Thatcher 20:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Jay*Jay ( talk · contribs) has started a similar discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee#BLP_concerns_and_ArbCom-banned_editors. As far as I know, the Bluemarine account is compromised/hacked/doing-very-strange-things, so unprotecting that talk page is not useful until that has been addressed. John Vandenberg ( talk) 10:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The arbitration case has only just closed and I think it is a bit too soon to go changing the finding. Matt Sanchez had his editing privileges withdrawn because he misused them in attacking other users, and there is no indication so far that he has undergone an epiphany. In any case, of his three known accounts, only one has its talk page protected, so he is able to use the others to communicate. With OTRS, the simpler factual corrections are normally the quickest to be made. Sam Blacketer ( talk) 19:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Enforcing the remedy in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/DreamGuy 2 as well as having any idea when DreamGuy is editing and who he is, which is important in light of his past behavior, is becoming increasingly difficult because of his decision to edit anonymously much of the time. As CheckUser, this puts me in an awkward situation because I don't want to have to be the one to carry out all the enforcement for DreamGuy, but at the same time, I don't want to have to out someone's IP unless there had actually been a violation (which another admin should decide, but which would be a waste of time if it's not him...). I would ask that ArbCom pass a motion requiring him to edit using only his DreamGuy account. Thanks. (See Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/DreamGuy, [12], Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Dreamguy 2, Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/DreamGuy_2#Elonka.27s_DreamGuy_report, etc. for evidence of the issue.) Dmcdevit· t 21:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
If Dmcdevit feels it has come to that, then I am lifting my prior objections. DG is free to present his case, however. I will drop him a note. El_C 22:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
(In response to DreamGuy's post):
Yes, it's a concern that Elonka has still failed to cite the diffs promised, and that continues to reflect poorly on her. Still, I notice you often don't use edit summaries; why not always use edit summaries, and check after every edit to see if you were logged in or not, if not, add another minor edit and sign it as DG in the edit summary. Simple enough, no?
El_C 22:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I've never made an edit while anonymous that wasn't obviously me. It seems odd that I would be accused of being deceptive when it's pretty rapidly determined who's who. The simple answer when people continuously file check user claims is to tell them to stop wasting your time with bogus reports. You asked them to point out some alleged wrongdoing that would justify a checkuser, they refused to do so, instead assuming bad faith. I can't guarantee that I will always be signed on, but I can guarantee that I will never deny it's me when it isso there can be no question of any alleged deception. If Wikipedia can come up with a way to make it so I get automatically signed in even if my cookie runs out or the ISP switches my IP address, fine, but I think it's ridiculous and impractical to insist I be signed on when no good reason is given for it. It's just people desperate to come up with anything they can as an alleged sign of wrongdoing. But a better way to solve this is to tell people falsely filing sockpuppet accusations to knock it off. DreamGuy ( talk) 20:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Some days ago I requested an RfCU on Dreamguy as I suspected that he was using a sockpuppet to edit again after having been warned previously on several occasions not to (see here [13]). Indeed, because of his refusal to log on when editing he was blocked for 72 hours [14]. It is my belief that Dreamguy is using an anon IP to edit again, hence my RfCU. The Checkuser request seems to have stalled. Can an admin take a look at my request please? My concern is that Dreamguy has edited the same articles (eg Jack the Ripper and The Whitechapel Murders (1888-91),etc) using several anon accounts, all of them supporting edits made by Dreamguy and/or each other, giving the appearance of consensus from several different editors when in fact it is possibly only one, using what appear to be a variety of sockpuppets (see see this [15] and this [16] and this [17] and this [18] and this [19] in support). Jack1956 ( talk) 21:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I find this particular comment by DG...odd: "It seems odd that I would be accused of being deceptive when it's pretty rapidly determined who's who". Actually, it isn't, and that's part of the problem. In October of last year, it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Dreamguy violated 3RR and acted uncivilly, and because these violations occurred through his usage of his primary account and a back-up anon, the connection wasn't immediately uncovered and reported until after the 3RR and complaints grew stale (El_C and Dmcdevit declined to pursue on these grounds, and the RfCU was stalled while awaiting arbcom/an/i discussions stall). To date, Dreamguy has evaded any and all questions about his activitiies under that (or any, really) anon IP, even when specifically questioned about such by DickLyon.
This wacky excuse of Greamguy's - not knowing he's been signed out - could be true the first time it comes up, might be true the second time, and could remotely be true the third time, but by the fourth such complaint by unconnected editors, its time to for the editor in question to either voluntarily adjust their behavior, or to have it adjusted for them. That the user has refused to admit when questioned as to his anon status seems a clear indication that he is aware that he is doing wrong, and knows that his admission would be damning. Succinctly, any claim of 'oops, I didn't know' rings false.
Because of the ArbCom enforcement complaint in October, I have grown to mistrust DG's motives for editing anonymously. Clearly, he feels that he should be able to enjoy the same freedom to enjoy anonymously that El-C, Dmcdevit or most other users enjoy. Unfortunately, Dreamguy is under behavioral restrictions, which require monitoring for incidents of uncivil behavior. To me, this would seem to lessen (if not eliminate) that freedom to edit anonymously - especially those articles he contributes to under his primary account.
I think that El_C's suggestion that Dreamguy police his own awareness of his IP to be unrealistically optimistic. If Dreamguy were at all inclined to do so, he would have taken these steps the first four times the subject was broached (with at least two of them administrative-level complaints). Unfortunately, Dmdevit's request for ArbCom to pass a motion (requiring Dreamguy to edit using only his primary account) is the proportionate and proper course of action. This would act as a strong incentive for DG to police his online status more vigorously, as a failure to do so would result in a loss of editing privileges. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Dmcdevit's request seems reasonable to me. -- Deskana (talk) 21:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Motion to add an additional remedy, as follows:
2) DreamGuy is restricted to using one and only one account to edit, and may not edit as an unlogged-in IP. He is to inform the Committee of the account he has selected, if not
DreamGuy, and must obtain the Committee's approval if he wishes to begin using a different account.
The motion is carried. A Clerk should please post and notify. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
When I made my previous appeal request a month ago, I was told to wait until February because at that point the arbitrators would have to look at whether or not to permanently lift my article parole, and that it would be more convenient for them to also review my other restrictions at the same time. I am unsure whether it is necessary to make a request about this; I was told by an arbitrator that the ArbCom intended to look at the matter regardless, but that it would still be helpful if I mentioned the appeal here. Everyking ( talk) 06:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Everyking, my view is that almost all of the restrictions can be lifted at this time, but there have been reservations expressed about lifting the restriction on your interacting with Phil Sandifer (Snowspinner) based upon the nature and history of your interactions with this user in the past. Could you kindly comment on whether maintaining this restriction in effect would have a substantial negative effect upon you or other editors. Thank you. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 14:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I want to point out that motion 2 is almost exactly the same as the status quo. The only (slight) difference is that the music parole is terminated (it is now merely suspended); the other things that would be terminated according to remedy 2 were already terminated in November. So a vote for motion 2 is a vote for no change. I also am confused that FT2 says that motion 1 lifts all restrictions, including the one regarding Phil, but the actual motion says that the restriction on interacting with Phil would remain in effect. I feel I presented three reasonable suggestions about what could replace that remedy while still addressing arbitrator concerns and I would hope they could be given some consideration. But at the same time, I don't want to confuse or complicate the issue further, considering the arbitrators are presently split between the two motions. Everyking ( talk) 04:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
If motion 2 succeeds, I would like the arbitrators to explain to me what I can do to get these restrictions lifted in the future. I'm sure the arbitrators wouldn't keep a penalty on me unconditionally, regardless of what I do. Everyking ( talk) 00:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Is my understanding of Amended Remedy 4 -- that Everyking is prohibited from commenting on admin actions -- period/full stop -- correct, or am I thinking of a different, now-expired remedy? Or is it that Everyking is restricted from commenting only if certain specified conditions (such as location of the criticism or tone of criticism) are true? I'd like to be sure before commenting on specifics. -- Calton | Talk 14:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I personally believe that Everyking should have all remaining sanctions lifted. I've interacted a few times with Everyking in the past few months, and every time I have I've found him to be courteous and intelligent. I think any problems he's had in the past have been addressed, and that he's learned from them, so I see little reason for any sanctions on him to continue. I very much doubt that Everyking would work to have his sanctions removed and then do something to have them re-instated. Like Newyorkbrad, I too consider Everyking to be a user in good standing. Acalamari 17:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I am unsure about whether I am too late to give my opinion on this matter; I would have given it sooner, had it not been for my short break. However, I would now like to express my trust in Everyking, and my feeling that all of his "vices", as it were, be lifted. I have interacted with Everyking in past, and I believe that these sancitions are no longer needed. Thanks, -- Anonymous Dissident Talk 01:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This case dates back to 2005; and had to be re-opened on three subsequent occasions for continuing issues between 2005 and July 2006. The issues kept trying to come back, it would seem. However, in the last 18 months, there has been comparative peace, and EveryKing now wants to ask, reasonably, if the issue (close to 2 years old) can be closed and all restrictions lifted.
Ordinarily I'd be inclined to agree, subject to checking with other arbitrators (with longer memories) whether matters have indeed been reasonable since then. That is the view of motion #1. However there was an incident in October 2007 which looks like it has left Kirill with concerns. The matter was resolved civilly, and Everyking was willing to offer a reasonable compromise after some discussion and initial heel-digging, and was unblocked. The agreement seems to have worked that time. But I can see why concerns may linger on conduct issues, and why perhaps motion 2 is proposed also.
The differences between the two are remedies 5 ("required to familiarize himself with the particulars of a situation before commenting on it") and harassment/enforcement, would persist under motion #2. Does Everyking still need the protection of these to prevent him (and the community) from such conduct issues in future, or without them, will he still keep himself well? Or does the general track record since 2006, and the at least bearable handling of the above incident, suggest they are no longer needed? That's the issue. Will opine when I've considered a bit more. FT2 ( Talk | email) 02:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Motion 1:
Support:
Oppose:
Abstain:
Motion 2:
Support:
Oppose:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
It is expected that the article will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, that information contained in it will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources. The article may be reviewed on the motion of any arbitrator, or upon acceptance by the Arbitration Committee of a motion made by any user. Users whose editing is disruptive may be banned or their editing restricted as the result of a review.
This remedy, passed on the Free Republic RfArb, unfortunately has lacked teeth, and the page has had to be protected for numerous edit wars between Eschoir (who has a conflict of interest after being involved in legal action initated by Free Republic) and several accounts, largely believed to be sock or meat puppets of community banned (and ArbCom endorsed Ban) User:BryanFromPalatine. See this edit for evidence submitted by :Lawrence Cohen as a report requested by CheckUser User:Lar. I'd like to formally request that the Arbitration Committee modify the above sanction in the following way.
It is expected that the article will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, that information contained in it will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources. The article may be reviewed on the motion of any uninvolved administrator. Users whose editing is disruptive may be banned or their editing restricted as the result of a review.
Thank you. SirFozzie ( talk) 21:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The standard article probation wording seems to have been developed after the Free Republic case. It would be:
Additionally, I support SirFozzie's request for better enforcement. Jehochman Talk 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
(In response to Jehochman 2.1):
Support.
Lawrence §
t/
e 23:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Esteemed SirFozzie: I certainly do not wish to appear disputatious, but when was it determined that I have a current COI with anybody? What evidence was taken and who heard it? It was formerly determined, and I will allow, that I had a COI, seven years ago. France had a COI with Germany in 1940, but I believe that dispute settled, too, and the French may edit the Merkel page to this day. Eschoir ( talk) 00:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
You may have missed Neutral Good, he just announced a wikibreak Eschoir ( talk) 14:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
That sure reads like: You've got a really nice little night club here, Vinnie, I'd hate to see anythin' bad happen to it. Extortion is such a harsh word. Eschoir ( talk) 23:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Part of this discussion took place prior to the new format, and is in a threaded style which is now not in use. Future comments in individual sections. Thanks! - FT2 |
(In response to Proposed Motion):
I support all except this quibble
editors who have or may reasonably be perceived as having a conflict of interest,
I may be wrong or just presumptuous, but COI is a term of art, with a particular definition meant to describe a factual state. Using language such as 'may reasonably be percieved as having a COI' would would equate opinion with fact. A 'reasonable' standard is less stringent than a 'preponderance' standard, and certainly not a 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard. Recast the sentence thus: "Editors who are or may reasonably be perceived as being pregnant . . ." and see how absurd that standard is.
"All editors" means all editors. The gloss on SPAs and COIs is unnecessary, and potentially harmful, and I urge thoughtful reflection before adoption of such language. Eschoir ( talk) 04:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Eschoir
I have no problem with any of those statements. The issue is, can the community use them to deal with the issue. My feeling is they can. FT2 ( Talk | email) 08:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Motion:
Support:
Oppose:
Abstain:
The motion is adopted. The Clerk will kindly post and notify. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 17:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I am writing this for User:Octavian history [20] because his account was blocked by an admin who is abusing his powers. Here is what he wrote:
"Dear Wikipedia admins, I am a major contributor to Wikipedia and have been blocked for no reason. Wanted to ask for your help. As a scholar and historian I have tried very hard to improve Wikipedia and make it a better place.
User Gyrofrog (real name [redacted]) is an admin who is abusing his powers and has blocked my account (Octavian history) indefinitely for absolutely no reason. I can prove he has stalked my every move and has lead a terror campaign against me from the minute I started on wiki! He is absolutely obsessed with my every move and is a very unjust individual. He claims he blocked me because I am a "sock puppet", but that is absolutely not true. A few people do use this computer at the office and I did not know they can't write about the same subject. Gyro claims I have a million sock puppets, but that claim is 100% false. I have asked the two individuals at my office to never write about the same subject again, so it does not any confusion.
Wiki rule says "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users". I have never damaged Wikipedia and only helped construct over 1200 edits.
I have not done anything wrong, but have made over a 1200 constructive edits and created many new topics of great interest with factual citations. I started and convinced the scientific community on wiki to correct and change the name of Charles Darwin's book On the Origin of Species.
I have not only made over a thousand constructive edits, but I have also created dozens of important pages such as:
Beverly Hills Police Department
Abraham Lincoln's Cooper Union speech
Marina Oswald Porter (Lee Harvey Oswald's wife, the assasin of President Kennedy)
Please restore my account and please tell me how to stop gyrofrog from harassing and stalking me. Thank you very much for your time!!!
Sincerely, Octavian history"-- Wiki-user3728 ( talk) 12:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have rechecked the findings at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Johnyajohn. It is clear that the following accounts have been operated from the same computer and the same internet connection: Octavian history ( talk · contribs); Hasan075 ( talk · contribs); Wallststockguy ( talk · contribs); The-Scriptorium ( talk · contribs); Equinoximus ( talk · contribs); Monroebuffzz204 ( talk · contribs); Sam838south ( talk · contribs); Sarazip1 ( talk · contribs). Other listed accounts are too old to check. Detailed records will be made available to the Arbitrators on request. Sadly, checkuser is not enabled with a time-travelling reverse web-cam, so claims of family/friends/etc editing will have to evaluated on behavioral as well as technical grounds. However, one particular series of edits on 19 January may shed light on this request.
Note that Wiki-user3728 ( talk · contribs) and Holy-wiki ( talk · contribs) are also coming from the same connection and computer. Thatcher 05:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
As I am specifically named in Wiki-user3728's request, and as I am the blocking admin, I am directly involved. As such, the requester should have (but did not) notify me, as per step 4 in the instructions at the top of this section. I am compelled to point out that the requester has moved on to impugning my name ( "sick individuals like Gyrofrog"). Over the course of our interactions I have never addressed Octavian_history in such a manner (nor, for that matter, anyone else on Wikipedia). Whatever the ultimate outcome, I am asking that Wiki-user3728, Octavian_history, et al be further enjoined from making personal attacks against me, including accusations of stalking, obsession, etc. (e.g. this series of edits). As for Octavian_history's block, I think the checkuser results speak for themselves (particularly the edits made four minutes apart from 2 accounts), but also that (at least in hindsight) the conflict of interest described at User_talk:Johnyajohn#June_2007 was and is sufficient. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Link to original case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge
Notification of involved users:
In Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ferrylodge, Ferrylodge ( talk · contribs) was identified as having "a long history of disruptive editing on topics related to pregnancy and abortion." He was placed under indefinite sanction: "Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing."
Recently Ferrylodge has taken what I consider to be a very disruptive tack on Talk:Abortion. I posted diffs and details here at WP:AE, because I believe that his behavior represented a continuation of his disruptive and tendentious approach to abortion-related articles sanctioned in the ArbCom case. My filing was reviewed by User:GRBerry, who raised the very sensible issue that the sanction applies to "articles" and likely not to associated talk pages.
Talk:Abortion and associated pages are contentious under the best of circumstances. Based on the diffs and evidence in my AE report, I believe that Ferrylodge is disrupting these talk pages with tendentious, circular arguments, presumptions of bad faith, extensive wikilawyering, and the like. I'm asking, therefore, that the sanction from his case be amended to read: "Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any page which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing." This would include talk pages, WikiProjects, and the like, though presumably somewhat greater latitude would be provided on these pages than in article-space. I believe this extension is justified based on his lengthy history and ongoing behavior. MastCell Talk 21:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
In interpreting the case, I noted that the committee explicitly chose the passed wording over a prior version that said "article or other page". The other difference was that the prior version was "is banned" and the passed version is "uninvolved administrator may ban". I don't know which difference the committee was focusing on.
There has been a prior request for clarification on this issue, which no committee member responded to. It is logged at Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge/Proposed decision#More clarification requested. Thatcher then said "The remedy would include any page related to abortion, including article talk pages, user talk pages (if an abortion-related discussion is carried on there), templates, policies, wikiprojects, AfDs, you name it. This has been established in past clarifications of other cases. The point of the remedy is to stop Ferrylodge from being disruptive, wherever it occurs. I personally would allow more freedom on talk pages, but there still will be an actionable level of disruption." I too am certainly going to allow more freedom in discussion venues (talk pages, XfDs, and the like).
I also note Kirill's comment earlier today on the Macedonia case: "'Page' (as opposed to the narrower 'article') applies to all namespaces. Kirill 13:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC) Since Thatcher (who has more WP:AE experience than I) and I are reading the tea leaves differently, clarification may well be in order even if expansion isn't.
There is currently nothing logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge#Log of blocks and bans. GRBerry 22:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I’ve responded to Mastcell at the Arbitration Enforcement proceeding that he initiated, and at the pertinent article talk page.
I hope that any further decision or clarification by ArbCom in this matter will be prospective only (which may be Mastcell’s intent anyway). I also hope that my comments at the pertinent talk page will not be viewed in isolation, but rather ArbCom should be free to review the behavior of all involved people, including "trusted members of the community."
Mastcell does not object to any article edit that I made. He objects to my talk page comments. And Mastcell is not denying that those comments followed up on a false statement that he had inserted into the article text, with an accompanying footnote in which Mastcell cited a POV newspaper editorial that did not even support the false statement that he was inserting into the article text. As far as I know, Mastcell does not deny any of this, but rather he deems all of this context irrelevant. It is very relevant. Unlike Mastcell, I did not disrupt the article text at all, and no one accuses me of having done so.
At the corresponding article talk page, Mastcell made numerous false allegations and personal attacks against me. He falsely accused me of “quote-mining a primary source” and of using “ a series of quotes from primary sources to advance your opinion” and “massag[ing] the primary sources” and “violat[ing] WP:SYN to mine quotes from a primary source” and trying to “set aside WP:NOR.”
I respectfully submit to ArbCom that all of these wiki-lawyering accusations by Mastcell were blatantly false. I do not see how ArbCom could agree to Mastcell’s present request without examining whether those accusations by Mastcell were indeed blatantly false.
It is tendentious for an Admin to make a stream of false accusations at an article talk page, while also inserting false material and POV footnotes into the article text. You may disregard these assertions of mine because Mastcell is a “trusted member of the community.” However, I urge you to please look at the facts. The discussion at the article talk page became heated, and Mastcell was as much a part of the heat as myself, if not more so. I was responding to irresponsible edits by Mastcell (and one other editor in particular) in the article text, and responding to irresponsible accusations against me by Mastcell (and one other editor in particular) at the article talk page. I have tried my best to avoid causing what even the most biased person might consider disruption of any article text covered by the Arbcom decision, and no one accuses me of having done so. Ferrylodge ( talk) 22:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of whether this specific decision was meant to include talk pages, having looked at the edits to which Mastcell objects, I see nothing disruptive in them. Now I haven't been at all involved in the history of that page, so I don't know how it might seem to someone who is involved, but the essence of Mastcell's complaint seems to be that in making a perfectly valid edit, Ferrylodge cynically assumed that someone would revert it, and got his response in first, so to speak. Mastcell seems to be claiming that this lack of AGF was inherently disruptive, and that Ferrylodge was under an obligation to pretend that he expected his edit to be accepted in good grace, simply because it was true, and only to respond once it was in fact reverted. The fact that his prediction seems to have been fulfilled would seem to me to vindicate him. And in light of his past treatment, especially the lynch mob back in September (my disgust at how he was treated caused me to withdraw from WP for several months), I think he's entitled to anticipate opposition to anything he does on that page, however valid, and to defend his edits as if they had already been challenged. At least that's how it appears to this utterly uninvolved editor (I only knew about this action because I had Ferrylodge's talk page on my watch list from when I made an edit to it way back when). -- Zsero ( talk) 23:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for the late participation; I just noticed this.
Like Zsero, I also can see no evidence at all of disruptive editing by Ferrylodge. I went to Ferrylodge's contribs, and read more of his contributions for myself. I did not read them all -- he's been a very prolific contributor for several years, on many topics. But what I found was consistently careful, well-written, well-sourced information from a thoughtful and careful contributor who obviously knows what he's talking about. Ferrylodge has diligently sought to make constructive contributions, in the face of tendentious POV-pushing by MastCell, IronAngelAlice, and a few others.
Note that MastCell's ally, IronAngelAlice, is a one-topic editor who has a history of abusive behavior using multiple accounts. Her previous ID was permanently blocked for it, and this one was blocked for a week, but she's at it again.
MastCell is also trying to get another excellent contributor, Strider12, banned. Strider12 and Ferrylodge are the two editors who have made the most constructive, well-sourced contributions to the abortion-related articles. I am truly appalled. NCdave ( talk) 14:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm hesitant to even comment as I'm afraid my "taking sides" will be used by MastCell to further her attacks on me. But, here I go...
I'm fairly new to Wikipedia and don't know any of the history of Ferrylodge or why s/he was banned. As I saw it, Ferrylodge did nothing except point out that the cited sources (from pro-choice leaning publications) conflicted with the transcript and invited others to comment and edit. But apparantly knowing Ferrylodge was under a ban, MastCell was quick to start alleging that he was being disruptive.
I can also say that I had asked on several occasions on the abortion mental health talk page what the full context of the Koop "miniscule" qoute was because it was out of sync with all the other published statements he had made. No one provided the full statement and question until Ferrylodge provided it. Therefore, I consider it a contribution.
But I was also unsurprised by MastCell's wikilawyering to minimize the significance of this proof that the phrase was actually used by Congressman Weiss and misattributed to Koop. In this case Ferrylodge was demonstrating from a primary source (congressional transcripts) that the secondary sources relied upon by MastCell were not reliable regarding this particular fact.
In many similar cases, when I have supplied material from reliable secondary sources, including multiple peer reviewed studies of the highest quality, MastCell and/or others encouraged by MastCell have deleted them with no justification other than that the findings and opinions of experts who disagree with their small set of preferred sources should not be included without their consent..."consensus"...which is never to be given. In my view, this unrelenting pattern of deleting reliable sources is a clear violation of the ArbCom ruling that removal of statements that are pertinent, sourced reliably, and written in a neutral style constitutes disruption 1. In my view, it is MastCell and his/her cohorts whose deletes s/he defends, who is disruptively deleting material from this article.
It has been my experience that MastCell has a long history of trying to suppress my contributions regarding abortion and mental health, and most of this time there have been no abortion critics participating in the conversation except myself. My take on this complaint is that MastCell is upset that Ferrylodge came in with evidence that supported my concerns and that Ferrylodge appears to be a threat to his/her attempts to portray Srider12 as always wrong.
Fundamentally, this argument is not about editors or contributions, it is about the most contentious issue of the day, abortion, and the belief of some editors that any fact or source that does not contribute to the whitewash of the abortion/mental health effects is suspect and should be dismissed, minimized, or obstructed with demands for "consensus".-- Strider12 ( talk) 21:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
We are currently experiencing edit wars, blanking, vandalism, ethnic ranting and various other forms of disruptive editing on a variety of different content items relating to Kosovo, including articles, talk pages, images, templates, categories etc. I'd be grateful if an arbitrator could confirm that the general sanction concerning Balkans-related articles that was passed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia applies to all namespaces within the area of conflict, not just to the narrower category of "pages" (the wording used in the sanction). I presume it does but I'd like to have it on the record for clarity's sake. -- ChrisO ( talk) 20:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Update -- If no objections are received in 5 days I'd suggest a clerk closes this as "confirmed", and notes this as a standard response applicable to other cases with the same basic question. FT2 ( Talk | email)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm requesting clarification as regards this FoF and this remedy. I've just blocked said user, RJ CG ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for edit-warring yet again. Time for the "summary bans" bit to be enforced? Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 23:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I see that Kirill is wishing to apply additional remedies from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles. What's the scope? I don't think it is necessary in Estonia related articles, there has hardly been any activity, let alone disputes, with only User:RJ CG popping his head in briefly after a long break before being promptly blocked for two weeks for 3RR. As I said previously, Wikiproject Estonia has been chilled to the bone with most of the editors leaving the project, with no significant articles created or expanded, except for football it seems. I suppose if you are going to turn the screws even tighter, how about also adding:
Thanks. Martintg ( talk) 06:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Unlike Israeli-Palestinian conflict, "Eastern European subjects" are not clearly defined. Does this include every Russia-related topic, like Russia-China relations or Soviet intelligence operations in the United States? If we want to follow the "Israeli-Palestinian" remedy, the "conflict area" should be clearly defined, say "Russian-Polish" or "Russian-Estonian" conflicts. Anything that is not area of conflict (e.g. articles on Russian-Turkish subjects or internal Russian affairs) do not belong there. Could you please clarify which subjects are covered? Biophys ( talk) 22:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know better what's being defined as the scope of applicability and what, if any, specific history of warnings is being proposed as moving sanctions to the "next level." My concern is that as the scope is expanded, "uninvolved" will also extend to "uninformed"--there has to be substantial awareness of editors' past histories in order to draw an objective judgement. If you just go by who accuses whom in the latest trail, it's quite possible that all that happens is a blanket conviction of the guilty and the innocent--if you come in on a fight, how do you know who started it? The notion that someone who is attacked is just going to sit and smile and assume good faith is only good for one round of edits; if an editor persists in behavior that is taken as an attack, the attacked editor(s) will respond and should not be held equally to blame for any escalation. — PētersV ( talk) 00:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I have recently stumbled across Denial of the Holodomor, which I discovered while cleaning up Historical revisionism, and am startled by the level of hostility and accusations of bad faith that seem to be acceptable in this area, even towards those manifestly uninvolved. I would like some firm statements adjuring editors to read and follow WP:OR and WP:AGF, as well as some sense that adminstrators will be able to evaluate those who are 'involved' accurately, and that there will be some appealing of that judgment. Relata refero ( talk) 18:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
It must be said that "stumbled across Denial of the Holodomor" consisted of Relata refero initially deleting huge sections of referenced content on February 12th from that article without first discussing the issues or obtaining consensus on the talk page. Not the best way to introduce one self to the other editors of any article, however Relata refero's edit history only goes back to October 11, 2007, so perhaps it was inexperience. Despite this, the other editors have been exceedingly patient and civil with him/her. Martintg ( talk) 20:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I have read this but am recusing from commenting due to my involvement in that case. I will ask the others to look over this. -- Deskana (talk) 10:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
In this case, comment is probably best given in the first instance by arbitrators who were active when that case was being heard. Deferring to othes to clarify the above. FT2 ( Talk | email) 23:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am recusing myself due to my prior involvement as an administrator. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 04:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
For this motion, there are 14 active Arbitrators, so 8 votes are a majority.
Motion:
Support:
Oppose:
Abstain:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
As the committee is no doubt aware Encyclopaedia Dramatica is presently up on Deletion Review, in the form of a new draft article ( User:Shii/ED). This editorial process is constrained by findings and rulings from the MONGO case, and may well have outlived their usefulness. The case turned on the harrassment of MONGO by other users, many of whom were connected with ED. While lamentable, this shouldn't have any bearing on our ability to cover or not cover a topic: it is not necessary to endorse the existence of thing in documenting it. Our policies demand an honest editorial debate on the matter, but the broadness of remedy # 1 and the obvious personal umbrage taken by numerous editors, including at least one sitting arbitrator, precludes such a debate.
FoF # 13 states that the article was deleted because "the content of the article was mainly derived from ED and our reaction to it, there being very little other information available to use as a reliable source." Arbcom isn't supposed to make content rulings, but we sometimes sneak them in anyway through obiter dicta like that one. Real challenges have been raised as to whether this is really the case anymore, and Shii's draft article does not fit such a description. This, more than anything else, suggests that the principles which undergird the case are no longer operative.
I would request that remedy # 1 be clarified either to refer only to articles concerning specific Wikipedia users, or revoked altogether. Most things on ED aren't suitable for this wiki anyway because of our "vast policy differences." In my view the committee overreached and prejudiced editorial decisions in drafting this decision. Best, Mackensen (talk) 16:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey all...my deepest appreciation for informing me about this discussion! Seriously, an arbitration case I was named in, that appears to be on the threshold of having its major motions and remedies eliminated or severely altered and NO ONE BOTHERS TO LET ME KNOW! As can be seen by the DRV on this article, there does not seem to be a community backed consensus to restore the article that has been developed in another editor's userspace. [30]...so what brings all this up? Well, let me inform you of what I know. Firstly, over a dozen of our editors resigned due to the ongoing harassment posted about them at that website...Do we need to be so inclusive we risk losing editors just so we can be such a compendium of "knowledge"...I think not. The website is of only marginal notability at best...at best. Let me repeat my first point...I know of at least a dozen editors who quit editing here because of the stuff posted on that website. I know this because after I went through what I did with the people affiliated with that website, I received over a dozen calls for aide...at one point the possibility of suing them was considered. Phaedriel was probably the best known editor to abandon this project...thanks in no small part to that website. Second point...IF we recreate the article, then ultimately someone will link to that website...that is where my fight started. They made their MONGO article "featured" and posted it on their mainpage...I repeatedly removed those links from our article on that website and was combated by a series of trolls and other editors who for some bizarre reason did not understand that I was not going to allow them or that website to libel me via this one...I am not a pedophile as the people there have written. Phaedriel is not the things they claim about her, nor are the other "wikipedos" that they have listed, accurately depicted. For the record, the article they have on me is far from the worst...very far from it. But I am here on wikipedia to write articles and to protect our editors from harassment...I cannot do that if we, as a website, are going to turn a blind eye to this major issue just so we can be "all inclusive", especially when we are talking about a website of extremely marginal notability, that attacks our contributors, and yes, slanders and libels them. Many complain that we, right here on Wikipedia, also slander and libel people, especially in our bios...that is a serious issue, but we have the power here to do something about that. We do not have the power to make adjustments to the same (and generally far worse) slander and libel that ED presents. But we can control whether we import that nonsense here. There are still millions of articles we can write...what the heck makes having an article on ED so important? How many articles do we yet lack about various insect species, birds, plants, glaciers, people, events, places? Maybe the committee would be better off telling the dramaqueens that have started to proliferate this website to start writing articles and stop wasting our server space with their generally worthless opinions, than spending so much energy rewriting an arbitration case in which the situation hasn't changed...that website still lacks notability, it still libels our contributors, it will ultimately lead to further problems...and further time wasted here, in this particular forum. Lastly, I do have other things I can do with my time than edit here...my life is valuable to me and the friends I have made here on this website are important to me...let's not be trendy and get limp wristed about this matter...we have an obligation to do all we can to make editing here a pleasant experience...not one where we have to look over our shoulder wondering why some creep has decided that he can link to ED and attack our contributors in the process. Yes, I know, the committee does not make content rulings in most cases...well maybe you should in this matter and do so with the spirit of respect and in the interest of facilitating encyclopedia writing and the writers who contribute here and ensuring they have the ability to spend their valuable personal time in peace as much as possible.-- MONGO 07:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, this is really funny and so predictable. I just knew good ole Dtobais would show up to make his comment here...he wants Sceptre's activities examined here...lets instead examine Mr. Tobais...yes, examine via his own precious links to wikipedia review the less than appealing comments he has made about our editors...heck, lets examine his ongoing insults posted right here on this page and numerous others on wikipedia, where he neverendingly refers to those with the opposite beliefs of his on this type of subject as cabals, cliques, cadres.-- MONGO 17:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I concur that the arbitration committee has no authority to eliminate the potential for an article on encyclopedia drmatica if the community decides that there are suffcient reliable sources to be able to write a NPOV article on that subject. But I do want to reclarify that it sure is odd that anyone would be so concerned about this matter when we still lack potentially millions of articles on subjects as benign as butterflies, birds and plants.-- MONGO 00:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The ill-conceived original MONGO decision was an unwarranted attempt on the part of ArbCom to make policy, and has been continually cited ever since by a small clique that is intent on imposing censorship of links that hurt their feelings. This BADSITES concept, a really bad idea, has been resoundingly rejected by the community as a whole every time it has come up. It's time to drive a stake through its heart once and for all. *Dan T.* ( talk) 12:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The fact that we don't let millions of Muslims offended by our images of Mohammed sway our editorial decisions, but we do let the offense of a handful of Wikipedians against ED influence us, says loads about our screwy priorities. *Dan T.* ( talk) 13:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Some inquiry into the actions of User:Sceptre would seem to be warranted; he attempted to intimidate the editor who proposed deletion review of ED by referring repeatedly to earlier people who did a similar thing getting banned, and also censored the discussion using a highly expansionist interpretation of the past ArbCom ruling whereby even links to the Alexa rankings of ED were considered illegal. His actions present a poster child for why the ArbCom ruling was a bad idea and ought to be overturned. *Dan T.* ( talk) 17:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
It's funny and predictable that, rather than respond in a rational manner to my comments, MONGO instead engages in ad-hominem attacks at me. *Dan T.* ( talk) 21:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Yet another response to MONGO: OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not considered a valid argument in debates about creating or deleting articles. *Dan T.* ( talk) 00:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I note that the deletion review of Encyclopedia Dramatica recently closed as "keep deleted", which is a fair enough close. I did notice one further edit, possibly as a result of this, or maybe not. Would the arbitration committee be able to comment on whether "recreation of the article" covers Encyclopedia Dramatica being mentioned at all in Wikipedia articles? ie. either in passing in other articles, or as a paragraph about the website, or as a section or entry in a list article? I raised this possibility at the DRV, but it didn't generate much discussion (possibly I arrived at the DRV too late for many people to even read what I posted there). I noted there that a sentence mentioning Encyclopedia Dramatica had existed at Criticism of Wikipedia#Humorous criticism for at least 5.5 months with seemingly no objections. Shortly after the deletion review finished, an IP editor removed the sentence in question from the "Criticism of Wikipedia" article. I have raised the issue at Talk:Criticism of Wikipedia#Satire sentence removed. My question is, since that was to my knowledge the only reference in any Wikipedia article to Encyclopedia Dramatica, are we trying to remove any and all references to Encyclopedia Dramatica from all articles? If not, then are editors free to add "subarticle" level of material on Encyclopedia Dramatica to other Wikipedia articles where relevant? Carcharoth ( talk) 09:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
For this motion, there are 13 active Arbitrators (excluding 1 who is abstaining), so 7 votes are a majority.