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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nyttend at 01:05, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
The restriction on new article creations imposed on Crouch, Swale (talk · contribs) as part of their unban conditions in January 2018 is modified as follows:
- Crouch, Swale is permitted to create new articles only by creating them in his userspace or in the draft namespace and then submitting them to the Articles for Creation process for review. He is permitted to submit no more than one article every seven days. This restriction includes the creation of new content at a title that is a redirect or disambiguation page.
- The one-account restriction and prohibition on moving or renaming pages outside of userspace remain in force.
The original unban conditions were clear: C, S can create pages in userspace and any talk namespace, but nowhere else. Now, the conditions are confusing: he can create pages in userspace, any talk namespace, draftspace, and no articles. But what about other namespaces? Is it necessarily a ban violation to nominate an article for deletion, since that requires the creation of a page in project space, or is it all right as long as it's unrelated to geographic naming? What about creating categories and templates if they're unrelated to geographic naming? Please specify the namespaces where page creation is appropriate, or where it's inappropriate, or give us admins other guidance; I've looked through the discussion at [1] without finding any reference to the issue. I don't have an opinion on what namespaces are good places for him to create pages, and I'm not asking for any particular result: I just want this restriction to be clear. Any user who's come back from a siteban will necessarily have a good deal of scrutiny, and if he creates pages in these namespaces, we're likely to see disputes over whether or not they're ban violations; either he ought to be able to create pages in such namespaces without controversy, or he should know that he's definitely prohibited from such creations. Arbcom can prevent confusion/disputes/etc. by clarifying or outright amending their statement in this area.
It seems that few (if any) people will have any problem with C, S creating the following types of page, so they could be explicitly whitelisted.
The second last bullet should be included, even if he is not permitted to move any pages currently, such that no amendment to this section is required should his restrictions be loosened before being completely removed. Thryduulf ( talk) 00:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Crouch, Swale is permitted to create new articles only by creating them in his userspace or in the draft namespace and then submitting them to the Articles for Creation process for review.
The restriction on page creation imposed on Crouch, Swale ( talk · contribs) as part of their unban conditions in January 2018 is modified as follows:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Thryduulf at 17:18, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
As there are no specific other people involved, I have left notifications at:
In The Troubles arbitration case the committee authorised a remedy that was effectively discretionary sanctions (this was before standardised discretionary sanctions as we know them today had evolved) and as part of that a general 1RR restriction was imposed. Later, the old remedy was replaced by discretionary sanctions, incorporating the 1RR restriction. However, because of the way these sanctions have evolved the scope of the DS topic area is stated differently in different places and this is causing confusion (see for example [[Talk:#DS notice]]). What I believe to be the full history of the scope(s) and where I found them is detailed at User:Thryduulf/Troubles scope but what I understand to be the differing scopes presently in force are (numbered for ease of reference only):
British Baronets were formerly part of some of the scopes, but that was unambiguously removed by a previous committee.
I am asking the committee to:
Request 1 does lead to the need to determine what the scope should be. In my view, formed following some discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland and Talk:Great Famine (Ireland) and looking at various articles and talk pages is that there are only two that need considering:
The Ulster Banner does not need to be separately mentioned - the Ulster Banner article is quiet and is not even tagged and while the Flag of Northern Ireland article would benefit from continued inclusion in the discretionary sanctions regime it is firmly within either scope suggested above.
The Easter Rising topic area is unquestionably within the scope of suggestion B and is reasonably interpreted as also being within the scope of suggestion A as crucial background to it.
Whether the Great Famine (Ireland) is within the scope of either A or B is less clear, nor is there clear consensus whether it should be - more input than I was able to attract prior to the request is needed here. Thryduulf ( talk) 17:18, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Black Kite, GoodDay, EdJohnston, and Scolaire: letting you know about the suggested motion below in case you have any more comments. Thryduulf ( talk) 21:46, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Per SilkTork's request, here is my suggestion for the salient points of a clarification motion. It needs some introductory text and may need some wordsmithing
Note to the clerks: If this (or some similar motion) passes the scope of the DS authorisation will need to be updated at Template:Ds/topics and Template:ArbCom Troubles restriction as well as the case pages linked. Thryduulf ( talk) 19:44, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
(B) would be better, in my opinion ... one could argue for the second section to specifically include the use of the term "British Isles", but that will probably be sufficient.
If I remember correctly, the issues with the Ulster Banner weren't particularly on that article itself, but edit-warring to include the Banner instead of the Irish flag / Union Jack (depending on context) and vice-versa on BLPs and other articles that included flags and flagicons. Black Kite (talk) 17:44, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I would caution that 1RR may need to be kept in place, during the Brexit process which effects the British/Irish border & thus related articles. GoodDay ( talk) 19:30, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm for anything, that'll prevent 'edit wars' around this topic. GoodDay ( talk) 21:53, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Per a motion passed this year, the 1RR which is currently in place for Troubles articles is due to the decision by an administrator to impose it under discretionary sanctions. (Most likely it is due to this log entry by User:Timotheus Canens in the fall of 2011. The idea of a blanket Troubles 1RR didn't originate with him, it used to be a community sanction before that). So, if anybody thinks that the blanket 1RR should be adjusted they could (in theory) appeal it at AE. Personally, I can see the advantages of single-page 1RRs that could be applied by individual administrators.
According to Canens, the scope of the case is "..reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland.." In my view, this is an adequate description of the scope and I wouldn't advise the committee to get really specific as to which articles are in or out. Admins shouldn't take action unless the nature of the edits suggests that nationalism is at work in the minds of at least some of the editors. Modern nationalism can cause problems with articles that seem tangential, as when editors who are warned about WP:ARBMAC get into wars about Alexander the Great, since the word 'Macedonia' occurs there. Yet the ARBMAC decision did not mention our article on Alexander the Great, nor should it. Even so, the ARBMAC sanctions would reasonably apply to any nationally-motivated editing of that article. EdJohnston ( talk) 20:09, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I have nothing extra to bring to the general discussion. It was always my belief that the scope of the sanctions should be B, and this seems to be the arbs' view as well. I would just note that, in the Famine article, there was this edit within the last week. The historiography of the famine is still very much a battleground between Irish nationalists and British nationalists. The article has had a Troubles restriction template on the talk page since 2009. I don't see any point in removing it now. Scolaire ( talk) 15:00, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Thryduulf: Is "'Ireland' has the standard geographical and political meanings" a phrase that has commonly been used in the past? It's not clear to me what it's saying. Where are the standard meanings posted and who set the standards? And is there a political meaning that's different from the geographical meaning(s) – one that includes Boston, Massachusetts or Celtic Park, Glasgow, for instance? If there is no bureaucratic reason for having this, I would leave it out. If there is, I would rephrase it so it is unambiguous. Scolaire ( talk) 11:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Thryduulf and Joe Roe: I have already pointed out the ambiguity in the word "country" in regard to Ireland. Building ambiguity into a "clarification" makes no sense. The word "state" is used exclusively in the Irish Manual of Style. It was also the word used in the 2009 Poll on Ireland article names authorised by Arbcom, and in any number of discussions on WT:IE and WT:IECOLL. If you're going to go ahead with 6b (which I still think is just wordiness for the sake of wordiness), please change "country" to "state". Scolaire ( talk) 10:14, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Imalbornoz at 00:47, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Point #8 of the decision: “In the event that disruptive editing resumes in any of these topic-areas, a request to consider reinstating discretionary sanctions in that topic-area may be made on the clarifications and amendments page.”
Since November 2018 there has been disruptive editing from the users involved in the Gibraltar case:
The focus of discussion: During Gibraltar’s capture in 1704 there were very notorious (at the time) events of rapes, plundering and defilement of Catholic churches; [6] after the surrender the population was only allowed to stay if they changed their allegiance to the invaders’ faction; 98% of the 4,000 Spanish population fled, most of them forever, and settled up mainly in the rest of the Gibraltar municipality, which would later become “Campo de Gibraltar”; they took with them the city council files, historical symbols, etc. and kept the legacy of Spanish Gibraltar. [7] These are facts mentioned by all relevant sources. They have been used by Spanish nationalists to support their irredentist claims (in the UN’s committee for decolonization, for example), and aren’t comfortable for British nationalists (none of which should affect Wikipedia). WCM, with Kahasok’s help, has been removing these facts from Gibraltar articles.
Antecedents (notice repetitive behavior):
Since November 2018, Wee Curry Monster, with the help of Kahastok, and some “good guys” in WCM’s list, [15] has been editing tendentiously across several articles the specific issues involved in the Gibraltar case, removing facts that are supported by all secondary sources, using arbitrary excuses (first ignoring previous consensus, then arguing inaccuracy, then copyvio, “excessive quotes”, opposite consensus…) and rejecting dispute resolution.
Examples of tendentious editing:
They aren’t repeating the extreme verbal abuse that got WCM banned, nor do they ignore 3RR. They just keep pushing their POV:
@ Rockysantos, although there was no census in Spain before Floridablanca's in 1787, the consensus in secondary sources (Maurice Harvey, George Hills, Stephen Constantine, Isidro Sepúlveda, Peter Gold...) is that at the time of the capture there were around 4,000 inhabitants (1,200 households) and only 70 individuals stayed, and in any case all sources agree that most of the population left and only a few individuals remained. You can take a look here. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 18:09, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I was not aware of the problem about outing. I knew WCM had changed his user name but I didn't know it was off-limits to mention this when referring to past actions (in fact, I thought it was necessary to allow other editors to understand old diffs). The same with Kahastok. Please accept my apologies.
Regarding WCM's talk page, I have used it as little as possible and always with a very civil and constructive approach. Please, Arbcom, check my comments in WCM's talk page here, here and here. I have looked for alternatives to contact WCM and solve things out, such as the only e-mail I have sent him and which is not offensive at all (if you want we can post it here or send it to the Arbcom). Sometimes it's necessary to discuss things outside of the articles' talk pages.
I have always encouraged WCM to write in my talk page, in spite of his very extreme verbal abuse, personal attacks and vandalism on my talk page in the past. I have really tried to understand him and reach out to him, but I think some kind of battleground mentality has got in the way. That's why I think an arbcom guided RfC would be a good way to move forward. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 19:15, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
@ MarshalN20, of course I have not accused British editors of being POV pushers. As a matter of fact, during past disputes Richard Keatinge, The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick were very neutral and supported the inclusion of the facts that WCM and Kahastok have removed. I am a very great admirer of British culture (that's one of the reasons I made the effort to learn English). If you forget about the persons and focus on the edits, you will see they are removing information which they said was "Spanish propaganda", but which is factual and supported by all sources. They have done that 8 years ago and now, with inconsistent (even contradictory) arguments, ignoring other editors' comments and rejecting dispute resolution. On the other hand, they are including information that is much less prominent in reliable sources. I have been very patient with WCM (even when he made very aggressive personal attacks in the past I did not ask for Arbcom and allowed him to reconsider his attitude). But after 8 years my conclusion is that, in this specific case, I don't know whether out of a nationalist POV or personal animosity towards me, he has been a POV pusher. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 19:57, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I totally agree with Bryan Henderson. In fact, that's precisely my point:
Maybe WCM and Kahastok are right. Maybe I am. Maybe I am biased, or maybe they are. In any case, we won't know what other editors think if we keep acting this way.
My analysis for myself is: I can
The fact is that the period of best advance in Gibraltar related articles was when the three of us were away from them (during the last enforcement of the DS).
That's why I am asking to reinstate the discretionary sanctions to stop us from disrupting the discussion and start some approach to include less involved editors. Maybe with the RfC that was recommended in the last enforcement? - Imalbornoz ( talk) 23:24, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Richard is a rare example of an editor who had no previous involvement in the article and one day payed enough interest to participate, bringing a neutral point of view into the discussion for months. His comment about "operating oneself without anaesthesic" is expressive of what it feels like to discuss in the Gibraltar article environment with WCM and Kahastok. He will probably never edit in this area again, as I haven't for years. The same happens with other users like The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick, Ecemaml or Cremallera. Something needs to be done.
Finally, I honestly think that Gibraltar related articles need some fresh air with the input of new editors. I think the articles will be very biased if we let WCM and Kahastok “own” them with the things I’ve seen this last couple of months. The best way to move forward, I think, is to reinstate the discretionary sanctions. I think it would also be a good idea to start a series of “controlled” RfCs (meaning someone should stop us from overflowing other editors with our comments) regarding several issues in the articles (the first of which would be the exodus episode). The other option is that (as Kahastok has repeatedly proposed) I “drop the stick and back away from the horse carcass.” ;o)
Thank you very much for your attention. – Imalbornoz ( talk) 20:02, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I would like to point out that my request deals with the behaviours shown by WCM, Kahastok, and maybe myself, not the contents.
If the Arbcom sees our behaviours as problematic but has doubts about the age of the original case, I think there will be no problem to have evidence showing the continuity in behaviours, editors and other circumstances.
But if they see no issue about behaviour, then I guess I will have to recognize my perception was wrong and accept that this request is declined.
In the case the discretionary sanctions are not reinstated, I don't think I will have the time or the energy to start (again) a dispute resolution process without the DS protection. The last time, it took two years to find a way out of the disputes in the Gibraltar article, with several frustrated mediators, aborted RfCs, and tens of thousands of lines in article talk pages (and in the end, the solution was to have WCM, Kahastok and myself out of the articles for 1.5 years). If this is the scenario, I guess I will be happy to leave the Gibraltar related articles in the hands of WCM and Kahastok, like Richard Keatinge, The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick, Cremallera, or Ecemaml, and wish the best luck to any editor who tries to build NPOV consensus in that area of interest.
Anyhow, whatever the result of the Arbcom, I thank the arbitrators for taking their time to look into this matter and offer us a way out of the deadlock. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 09:18, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 11:32, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
I have sought advice from my mentor Nick-D on how to deal with this editor. I have followed his advice scrupulously and avoided any repeat of any behaviour that is sanctionable. This filing seems to be an abuse of the system for this editor to get his own way in a content dispute. He has adopted his usual tactics of flinging enough mud around and hoping it will stick.
On my user page, I list a number of editors I admire. These are editors I admire for the quality of their edits not because of personal association. I have for example held opposing positions to that of MarshalN20 and Apcbg and I am sure Drmies would acknowledge we frequently disagree on matters. I consider it a gross and egregious presumption of bad faith that he would malign editors such as these in an attempt to smear me. (To answer your question Drmies, you've been on the list since I created it in March 2015, except for a brief period when we annoyed each other).
It is apparent that Imalbornoz has been following me to different articles, in many cases articles he has never edited before. In each case, he has simply reverted my changes, with the comment I have to seek a consensus with him before I am allowed to make any changes. Examples: [81], [82], [83], [84].
Sometime ago, I requested Imalbornoz did not post to my talk page [85]. I did so because I found that his postings on my talk page were not productive and mainly accusing me and other editors of misconduct. He has repeatedly ignored that request. Examples [86], [87], [88], [89]. Further, on 15th December I had cause to remind this editor not to contact me by email [90] as he had sent me rather an offensive email that I immediately deleted.
I have also noted that he has badgered any editor who has commented. Examples: [91], [92], [93].
He also badgered editors where I have sought policy guidance, trying to get them to change their advice. Examples: [94], [95].
The talk page history is informative, [96] this editor has completely dominated the discussion, deterring outside comment with walls of text. Compare this with my own minimal replies to this editor [97]. His behaviour is characteristic of WP:BLUDGEON.
I previously edited using my own name. Due to off-wiki harassment, I changed my username and have avoided using my own name since. Admins are fully aware of this and any past sanction is registered against my current username. Imalbornoz is fully aware of this, knew there was no need to refer to it and yet has chosen to WP:OUT me once again. I have requested my previous username is redacted.
I have more to comment but that would probably be more appropriate for an SPI report I am considering filing. W C M email 18:04, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
To answer Rockysantos's question. I am not aware of there being any census data, the figures quoted are estimates based on eye witness testimony and vary between 4-6000. W C M email 18:07, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Can I ask that anyone considering the OP use of diffs be aware that they are very selective and are designed to mislead. e.g. in Capture of Gibraltar he claims I've removed mention of what he terms "atrocities". This diff [98] shows this to be untrue; this is my edit with extensive quotations and sources concerning precisely this topic. I also ask you to consider his use of none neutral language. All I did was move mention to a more logical chronological order, expanding it to represent the range of views in the literature. Yet he's presenting a diff as if it were permanently removed. W C M email 19:24, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Another example [99] he claims I'm removing my edit because I want to remove all mention of the events of 1704. In Talk:Gibraltar I repeatedly state I don't want to and it was removed after his insistence that there is no consensus for it [100]. W C M email 19:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I thank Giraffedata for his comments and would like to add a small response. I have deliberately tried to keep my comments to a minimum to allow other editors to comment. I have also tried to focus solely on content. However, I find it difficult to avoid responding when you have an editor repeatedly demanding you reply on unrelated matters [101], [102], [103]. It's also difficult to avoid responding when an editor is making untrue statements about your editing history e.g. naming me as an editor responsible for an edit [104] when I'd already pointed out I was not [105].
If you feel I've deterred you from commenting I would like to apologise and assure you that was not my intention. W C M email 17:35, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I think it's helpful to remind arbcom of Richard's comment that he only reverted my edits previously [106] for a giggle.
I am requesting that both Richard Keatinge and Imalbornoz are admonished for comments about the motives of other editors. I am tired of the accusation by both editors that Kahastok and I are suppressing information, which they have been repeating for nearly a decade. This repeated demonstration of bad faith cannot be allowed to continue, if this is not addressed they will be emboldened to continue being uncivil and generating a poisonous atmosphere.
One only has to look at my own editing history to instantly see this is untrue. Examples User:Wee Curry Monster/Gibraltar NPOVN, User:Wee Curry Monster/Gibraltar Sandpit, History of Gibraltar#War of the Spanish Succession (1701–14), Capture of Gibraltar#Aftermath e.g. [107].
This was a recurring statement leading up to and following the arbcom case [108], [109], [110] despite rebuttals from literature [111] and [112]. As was accusations that editors were suppressing information [113].
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Although sourced as the opinion of Garret(1939), a cursory examination of the literature shows it to be untrue. The events are described accurately in Hills (1974), Bradford (1971), Francis (1975), Jackson (1990), Andrews (1958) and Garratt (1939). In 1845, Ayala a Spanish work is translated verbatim into English by T.James (1845) note also Sayer (1862), Martin (1887), Drinkwater (1824). Admiral Byng and Reverend Pocock wrote detailed eye witness accounts from a personal perspective. All of which document the events to 1704. Aside from anything else the 70 yr old opinion of an author (Garratt) has no bearing on a content discussion and most certainly should never be used to impugn other editors. It was repeatedly and it still is.
The point that I and others have tried to make, which both Richard and Imalbornoz refuse to acknowledge, is that it is not necessary or desirable to mention extensive details in each and every article obliquely related to Gibraltar. This is the locus of the problem, they have sought to force edits into several articles where this level of detail is inappropriate per WP:WEIGHT. W C M email 19:05, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I have noted above that there is frequent reference by Imalbornoz, repeated by Richard Keatinge, that Kahastok and I are excluding information for POV reasons. As I've pointed out one of the very articles they linked in their evidence was written by me; it's clearly untrue. This is A) uncivil and B) a long standing and peristent failure to assume good faith and enter into consensus discussions with an open mind. This alone has been responsible for creating a hostile atmosphere and it clearly can't be allowed to continue. I'm not suggesting blocks or bans but an admonishment or even a simple WP:TROUT seems warranted to me. I would urge you to consider putting this to bed please. W C M email 13:12, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@ SilkTork
Can I also ask you to consider the point I raised above.
I fear that Imalbornoz is being very economical with the truth and ask you to note, as Kahastok and I have already commented, Imalbornoz is presenting diffs in a highly misleading manner. It's also worth bringing to your attention that throughout the period referred to by this editor he had no sources in his possession. Rather he made an edit, then tried to justify it by using sources found using Google snippets. He also tried to argue weight could be determined in the same way by constructing metrics based on google snippet searches and tried to use the same technique to argue other editors were biased. He has never to my mind considered the range of opinion in the literature, rather he is selective in his selection of facts to give an unbalanced view.
The problems with past RFC obtaining outside opinion was that Imalbornoz and Richard Keatinge actively deterred it with the practised technique of posting walls of text and raising multiple irrelevant issues to confuse matters. As an example, during mediation I made a comment about the multiple issues in the way an edit was being formulated [115]. I raised this at WP:NORN at the request of the mediator User:Lord Roem [116]. Imalbornoz disrupted this by raising multiple issues that were not pertinent to that discussion [117]. As discussion diverted from the issue relevant to the noticeboard I asked a focussed question for outside opinion [118], Richard Keatinge immediately followed this by again raising matters that were irrelevant [119].
They also disrupted RFC, as an example [120]. Imalbornoz posted a wall of text, then Richard completely hijacked it and rewrote it [121] so it did not address any of the issues raised.
You will find that I have not refused a suggestion of an RFC or outside opinion, nor would I but I would add it is likely to be deterred by the walls of text posted by Imalbornoz. I would in fact welcome outside opinion, in point of fact when Imalbornoz and Richard Keatinge were removed from the article by the sanctions he is seeking to have re-imposed, outside editors more or less immediately restored the article in line with what I had been arguing was appropriate for an overview.
I learnt a couple of lessons from the past. One is not to respond to every argumentative comment as it can give the appearance of a WP:Battle, the second was to walk away and not respond to deliberate provocation. I also ask you to note that the circumstances were very different the last time, my mental health was in a mess and I really shouldn't have been editing. None of the behaviours that have lead to past sanctions have been repeated, nor will they be. W C M email 14:32, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
This request is a case of an editor who - having failed to get consensus by continually badgering people on a talk page for months on end - is now trying to use Arbcom to do an end run around the consensus building process instead of just dropping the stick.
Initial notes:
The content dispute is that Imalbornoz believes that Wikipedia's articles on Gibraltar should give a great deal of weight to the circumstances of the foundation of the Spanish town of San Roque in 1706. His focus on this narrow point is extreme to the point that he resembles an WP:SPA: probably 95% of his edits in the last two months, and probably 70-80% of his edits all time, are on this specific point.
In terms of the specific situation we're in, this is reasoanbly straightforward. I quote the second paragraph of WP:NOTUNANIMITY:
Insisting on unanimity can allow a minority opinion to filibuster the process. If someone knows that the group cannot move forward without their consent, they may harden their position in order to get their way. This is considered unacceptable on Wikipedia as a form of gaming the system, as well as tendentious editing. There is even a three revert rule to limit efforts to stonewall the editing process.
Imalbornoz appears to believe that his consent is necessary for any consensus to be reached. As such, he has been filibustering the process, badgering editors [1] and insisting that there can be no "real consensus" [2] without him. WCM and I - and others - spent weeks trying to include Imalbornoz in a consensus, but this proved impossible. Note frustration with Imalbornoz's methods here and here for example - and that neither of those comments came from me or WCM.
For me, it is reasonably obvious from a reading of the talk page that there is consensus for this text - once you take account of the stated positions of all involved editors (not just the three named editors here), and of the fact that Imalbornoz is a single editor and not entitled to a veto.
If I thought further dispute resolution would get a consensus that included Imalbornoz, I would agree to it. But Imalbornoz's behaviour - the filibustering, the badgering, the endless repetition of rejected proposals with no attempt made to resolve the objections raised to them, the repeated misrepresentation of others' positions (as noted in footnotes above, plus particularly the quote at the bottom of this wall of text that was taken entirely out of context) - demonstrates to me that this is highly unlikely. And having had this start before Christmas, I think very few of us want to still be having the same discussion next Christmas as well.
If any action is needed at this point to avoid a repeat of the previous car crash, it is to prevent Imalbornoz from raising this point again. Everyone else can work together constructively. All other editors can leave this point and deal with other things - have in fact left this point and spent the last two weeks dealing with other things. Any problems still needing resolution are the result solely of Imalbornoz's refusal to allow this discussion to end. Kahastok talk 12:34, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Following WCM's lead and going through some of the diffs in Imalbornoz's text, turns out I shouldn't have bothered looking up examples of his misrepresenting others' edits in the discussion because he's done it over and over in his statement on this very page. The timeline is confused, the text in several cases false, the choice of diffs misleading. I only find it disappointing that I am not surprised - Imalbornoz's standard WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality in full flow there.
In terms of the outcome of this, to be clear: I see no particular need to add discretionary sanctions in the general case, I feel that would be excessive based on a single discussion. But at the same time, in the general case, if an editor is not willing to drop the stick on his own, it's reasonable to ask that he be required to drop the stick by the community for the good of the encyclopedia. This discussion cannot continue for ever. But I think I can say with confidence that nobody bar Imalbornoz wants it to. Kahastok talk 09:13, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
A few points to bear in mind when reading this:
Imalbornoz and Richard Keatinge now both appear to be trying to relitigate the events of 2010-2011. Why? For my part, I have no interest in that. It's 2019. The past is the past.
Taking only what's happened at Talk:Gibraltar, there are behavioural issues. I described them above. Do they require discretionary sanctions? No, not at this point. They require a WP:TROUT. Mentoring would probably help if Imalbornoz intends to return to the topic. But if this had gone to WP:ANI, I'd expect nothing further based on what has happened at Talk:Gibraltar. But I am concerned about the effect of this process on future discussion.
When Imalbornoz first came back, he started a different dispute. The discussion on this point is here. The question was controversial - he knew it had the potential to become heated (and made that point several times) - but we reached consensus quickly. Imalbornoz accepted my proposal the day after the first revert. But in his edit accepting the compromise, and three more times afterward, he was still trying to start the argument. And when he gave up on that one he immediately started trying have an argument over San Roque - another point that he knew was likely to raise the temperature.
If you wanted to raise the temperature at this article now, after the discussion we had - that, I remind you, finished a full two weeks ago - an effective way of doing it would be to bring the dispute here as Imalbornoz did, and make the sorts of statements that Imalbornoz has made.
There is a pattern here.
If we finish this now, and Imalbornoz comes back, I will do my best to ignore all this, to lower the temperature, to continue to edit in a constructive manner with all participants, trying to reach the best consensus we can reach given the views of all the editors involved. But that's not going to work if others - Imalbornoz included - are not similarly committed to lowering the temperature. I simply do not get that impression from the edits I see here. Kahastok talk 21:30, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Note, modified by Kahastok talk at 23:14, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
This is a classic example of a content dispute between a single-purpose account, Imalbornoz, and just about everyone else who has been active on the article, where Imalbornoz stubbornly refuses to accept that other editors don't share their views, and just continues to push their POV, repeating the same arguments over and over again, ad nauseam. Having crossed the border to tendentious editing a long time ago. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 13:26, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
It's generally agreed some people had left Gibraltar when the British took over, however is there any census we can look at to prove this? The government of Gibraltar has on its website broken down the population in it's earliest census from 1753:-
The results then were: British 434; Genoese 597; Jews 575; Spaniards 185, and Portuguese 25.
Is there one from before this that shows the population and how it was before the British took over? This would show if the word exodus is justified.
https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/gibraltar-census-history -- Rockysantos ( talk) 11:01, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Above was my statement back in December, which was never really clearly answered.
Is there a census from before the aledged exodus? If so where is it and what are the figures, once that is established can it be proven that the population on mass left Gibraltar for San Roque? Is there a census that shows that Gibraltar had a population of say 5000 then 0 and San Roques census then rose by 5000?-- Rockysantos ( talk) 13:20, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm very pleased to see that I'm on WCM's "good guys" list. I don't know how old or new it is, but I do know WCM hasn't always felt about me that way, haha. Anyway, I'm not here because of WCM but rather the editor filing the request: let there be no more outing. This isn't the place to discuss what outing is, what its parameters etc. are--just accept it, no more outing. Drmies ( talk) 15:24, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Having worked with WCM and several Argentine editors to resolve contentious issues in the Falkland Islands article (in 2014), which is now a featured article, I can attest to WCM's value as an experienced editor and community member. Controversial topics can be adequately covered in Wikipedia, and WCM has proven expertise in achieving it. Kahastok accurately indicates that the crux of the content problem concerns the "Campo de Gibraltar" population. Imalbornoz accuses WCM and British editors for "POV pushing," when in reality what is happening is a difference of opinion. My understanding of " POV pushing" is that it promotes fringe perspectives. What is the literature or historiography on the topic? Reading the content article's talk page, this is unclear. Therefore, the claim of "POV pushing" is also unclear.
In fact, given the lack of clarity, it seems abusive (behavior-wise) for Imalbornoz to accuse the British editors as being "POV pushers". It's an uncivil defamation of character, which unfortunately often goes without remedy in administration/arbitration boards. Even more concerning (also behavior-wise) is Imalbornoz's outing of the other editors. In my book, these are both clear battleground mentality actions that reveal a lot more about Imalbornoz's behavior than that of the other editors.-- MarshalN20 ✉ 🕊 19:26, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I follow the Gibraltar article and participated a little in the discussion others have discussed here, which started in December and featured mainly the editors whose discretionary sanction status is the subject of this amendment request.
I would have participated more, but I could not keep my head above the flood of argument between User:Imalbornoz on one side and User:Wee Curry Monster and User:Kahastok on the other. There is clearly something going on between these editors, as this continued for six weeks, meandering from here to there with no apparent hope of editors on one side changing minds on the other and what looks like heavy biases that prevent one side from even considering the other side's argument. Perhaps because of history they have with each other. Furthermore, about half of the discussion is meta-discussion ("You're not arguing properly").
But I don't see that that has any bearing on the amendment request, which is to reinstate discretionary sanction status. I don't see that any of these editors have done anything or is likely to do anything in the future that would result in a discretionary sanction.
Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) ( talk) 22:34, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I endorse Imalbornoz's point on the underlying content dispute; there is a longstanding campaign to keep out of Gibraltar-related articles details of the serious violence committed against civilians by the mainly-English forces that captured the town in 1704. This violent episode is a significant part of the ongoing Spanish feelings for the place. Histories in English have tended to downplay or even omit it, doing I feel a disservice to any reader who wants a holistic understanding. A coterie of editors (who have done good work elsewhere) have demonstrated remarkable devotion and ingenuity in the cause of omitting or downplaying it on Wikipedia. The discussion has been colossal, repetitive (often diverging into rather dubious procedural points), and wasteful of goodwill. I feel that this does a disservice to Wikipedia. We have also seen editors from other points of view, but in the face of vast argumentation they have generally decided to leave this ghastly dispute. I have profound empathy with their decision. Rather than engage in the dispute again, I would prefer to operate on my own piles without anaesthetic.
Imalbornoz makes a specific request, that admins should again be empowered to issue discretionary sanctions on editors on this subject. (This power was a part of the resolution that did, for a while, cool down the whole dispute.) This might well help a suitable (interested and robust) admin to prevent the content dispute from wasting further immense amounts of time and goodwill. I therefore support the idea, or any other that will bring an appropriate degree of constructiveness and courtesy to the issue. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
When Arbcom first passed one of these housekeeping motions, I assume their thinking was that the disputes had quiesced and were no longer a problem. If one of these disputed areas happens to come back to life, with a lot of similarity in the issues raised, this suggests that the housekeeping should be undone. Making the participants file a whole new case seems to undo the 'housekeeping' rationale which suggests only a small matter of tidying up of things no longer needed. If the committee correctly identified the nature of the dispute the first time around, and made a reasonable choice of a sanction regime, that understanding should still hold if the dispute begins again. It is more labor-intensive to do something in a full case than at AE. EdJohnston ( talk) 02:52, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Imalbornoz: my reading of that housekeeping motion, which is now over four years old, is that it allows a request like this - it doesn't guarantee that the DS will automatically be reinstated. The intent of the motion was that it would allow a quick resumption of the sanctions if the same problems as before reappeared as they were. However, the arbitrators have examined this request and looked at the evidence presented and determined that the issues this time are different to the issues that resulted in the sanctions being imposed in 2010 and they are not convinced that discretionary sanctions are the right tool for the current dispute. That doesn't mean there ins't a dispute, it just means that the arbitrators are of the opinion that this is a different dispute that the community should be allowed to attempt to resolve first. Thryduulf ( talk) 19:42, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by MattLongCT at 01:26, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
15) The standard discretionary sanctions adopted in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate for (among other things) "all edits about, and all pages related to... any gender-related dispute or controversy... broadly construed" continue to remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea Manning. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at the Gamergate case, not this one.
I am seeking a clarification and proposed amendment to Manning concerning its current relevance in regards to enforceable actions. The case in question has not had a formal amendment since 2013. Currently, the case is in a grey area since it cites Sexology even though the case had its discretionary sanctions since rescinded. This has not been noted anywhere in the page for Manning.
However, it is listed in
Wikipedia:General sanctions#Obsolete sanctions. Separately,
Template:Ds/alert says:
Pages dealing with transgender issues including
Chelsea Manning... and
Manning naming dispute) (superseded by the
GamerGate decision.)
(Gamergate never explicitly did this according to its case page.)
I fail to see any consistency for what the exact status of Manning is supposed to be. In resolving this, my proposal is that the remedies continue forward with only a slight amendment to show that the case now serves as a clarification of Gamergate. This field of debate still has much activity, so in my view having this exact case to fall back on would be preferable. Gamergate did not once reference LGBT+ issues specifically, so I do not see the problem of having this Manning serve to supplement it.
For the record, this is my first time ever posting in WP:ArbCom, so that might be nice to know. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk- ☖ 04:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
It would be simpler to do that; I would agree. However, my preference is for an amendment over a rescision. One could reasonably interpret GamerGate as not including transgender or preferred pronoun debate. Maybe it's just me who has noticed it, but I don't think that Manning has been applied much since Gamergate was issued. For example, I took a look at discussions such as this one, and I can't seem to find a single instance where a person was formally notified of GamerGate DS (including users named in GamerGate). I did find instances of users being notified of the Sexology Discretionary Sanctions. For that particular discourse, I could not find a single instance of GG/DS applied during that Early June 2015 period (I found one GG/DS alert from months later).
In my view, if the committee felt that Sexology was too ambiguous in 2013 to find a need for Remedy 15 of Manning, then I would say that should go double for GamerGate. It's more broad than Sexology sure, but that is why this clarification is needed and would ensure that it is applied properly and consistently. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk- ☖ 22:01, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I have been keeping up with the statements made in this request. I have begun to notice that discussion has drifted away from my original question somewhat. Therefore, I am presenting this secondary statement.
First of all, in response to Katie's question, I am grateful of BU Rob13 for noting their December 2016 Request. However, I will state that I intentionally did not include in this request any mention of nor make any request related to GGTF. My intention was simply to clean up the issues associated with the inconsistent application of DS/alerts in LGBT-related topics.
Originally, my participation in this RfC brought me to this conclusion. To elaborate: though there is a gender-related dispute concerning the Matrix, the DS Talk page template has not been placed. I found this odd for such a controversial dispute.
Furthermore, and not to sound like a Wikilawyer, it is of my belief that by removing Remedy 15, the committee would give credence to those that might corrupt the committee's intentions for doing so. This could falsely give credence to the belief that Transgender-related topics are no longer controversial and don't fall under the DS regime anymore. There are certainly some parliamentary procedural viewpoints that may justify this view. I would rather keep Remedy 15 as it is rather than seeing it be striked in all honesty. It just leads to more questions of "intent of ArbCom." I primarily just want to avoid those disingenuous discussions before they really come up.
Penultimately, I will say that if the committee was to move to formally supercede GGTF, then they would also most likely have to amend or rescind Remedy 1.1 of Arbitration enforcement 2 which cites that case (more specifically this motion). The whole thing is rather complicated, so that is why I sticking with my original request. Otherwise we dig way too deep into the weeds here.
Finally, Guerillero just taught me a new idiom: Tempest in a teapot. I would say that would be a fair criticism to apply to this request, yeah. This is really just glorified housekeeping.
Thank you all! ― Matthew J. Long -Talk- ☖ 23:42, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
I do agree with their concerns. Aesthetically, GGTF is a nicer case to put this all under, yet Gamergate was the one of the two to outgrow its original jurisdiction for whatever reason. However, we could just rename the case something like GGTF 2 or Gender-related Disputes if we are so inclined. Just a thought. I am happy with the current motion as it stands either way. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk- ☖ 16:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
The GamerGate scope seems purposely broad enough to cover earlier cases like Manning or GGTF, and similar issues in the future. I don't think anyone would win an argument claiming that transgender-related issues are outside of that scope, though I suppose it would be harmless to explicitly include them. I think the related DS are regularly applied and I would guess that editors in those areas are widely aware. Maybe warnings are not logged or aren't where you're looking, or maybe I'm wrong and it could be more widely publicized.
I guess narrowness is likable in sanctions, but for this I don't think it would be an improvement. Seren_ Dept 03:47, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
I support this change - it doesn't make much difference to the way this remedy will be enforced, but nonetheless it's worth being explicit about these things. There are bad faith editors who will attempt to adhere to the word of the sanction and not the spirit - may as well tighten down the wording to match the intention. -- a. get in the spam hole | get nosey 10:20, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Seems like a storm in a teacup to me. Manning didn't create any sanctions; it was only reminding people of the sanctions that were already in place at the time of the case. The sanctions that were rescinded in the Sexology motion were de facto recreated when we voted to impose the GamerGate sanctions less than a year later. If people strongly care, you could redirect people to GamerGate to make it covered de jure, but that seems to be at the discretion of admins at AE on a particular request. As for GGTF, the sanctions 100% GamerGate sanctions.
The gender gap on Wikipedia is indisputably falls under any gender-related dispute or controversy. Since DS have been standardized for close to a decade and logging has happened on the same page for 5 years, deciding if the sanction should be logged in section A or section B is pretty much the only confusion that can happen. -- Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
MattLongCT's idea to rename the case something like "Gender-related disputes" is a good one and not without precedent - "Footnoted Queries" was renamed by motion to "Editing of Biographies of Living Persons" when it outgrew it's original scope. Thryduulf ( talk) 18:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
To consolidate and clarify gender-related discretionary sanctions, the Arbitration Committee resolves that:
The standard discretionary sanctions adopted inWikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SexologyWikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate for (among other things)"all articles dealing with transgender issues""all edits about, and all pages related to ... any gender-related dispute or controversy" and associated persons remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea/Bradley Manning. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at theSexologyGamerGate case, not this one.
The standard discretionary sanctions adopted in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate for (among other things) "all edits about, and all pages related to ... any gender-related dispute or controversy" remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any discussion regarding systemic bias faced by female editors or article subjects on Wikipedia, including any discussion involving the Gender Gap Task Force. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at the GamerGate case, not this one.
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Initiated by RGloucester at 16:07, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
This is a matter of housekeeping, and I hope that the honourable members of the Arbitration Committee can assist me by providing some clarification. Recently, I filed a request for arbitration enforcement relating to the article " Origin of the Romanians". In making preparations to file that request, I came across the strange situation whereby I knew discretionary sanctions applied to the relevant article, but I was not sure which of the two related and existing discretionary regimes was most appropriate to use. I expect that's somewhat confusing, so let me explain a bit further.
There are discretionary sanctions regimes in place for articles related to Eastern Europe, and for the Balkans. Unfortunately, the definitions of both ' Eastern Europe' and 'the Balkans' are ambiguous and potentially overlapping. This produced a strange result whereby the relevant editor had originally been notified of the Eastern Europe regime, but was later notified of the Balkans regime in relation to his edits of the same article. In any case, this ambiguity is really not desirable for discretionary sanctions. The definition of 'Eastern Europe' specifically has actually been a matter of substantial dispute on Wikipedia before. One can easily imagine a situation whereby one could 'wikilawyer' about the validity of a notification of the existence of one of the regimes, in an effort to avoid sanctions. I wonder if the the Arbitration Committee can do one of two things: either clearly define the scope of each regime, or merge the two. This way, administrators enforcing sanctions and editors seeking their enforcement will not have to grapple with the ambiguities inherent in the terms 'Eastern Europe' and 'the Balkans', and will be able to avoid a bureaucratic nightmare. Thank you in advance for your consideration of this matter.
I recommend the committee make a motion of clarification here. The articles on Eastern Europe and Balkans are both unclear to whether Romania is part of the region. Neither of the disputes leading to discretionary sanctions particularly apply to Romania; the Balkans dispute primarily involved Bulgaria, Greece and the former Yugoslavia. The Eastern Europe dispute primarily involved Poland, Russia, and the Baltic States; the more recent crisis in the Ukraine has also fallen under those sanctions.
I'm not certain that Romania falls under any Discretionary Sanctions at this time. An explicit list of countries affected (rather than a region name) may be necessary. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 19:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Looking at our articles about Eastern Europe and the Balkans, there is indeed overlap between them. Taking a reasonably (but not excessively) broad interpretation some or all of the following countries are included (sometimes depending on context):
Country | Eastern Europe | Balkans |
---|---|---|
Albania | Yes | Yes |
Belarus | Yes | No |
Bosnia and Herzegovina | Yes1 | Yes |
Bulgaria | Yes | Yes2 |
Croatia | Yes | Yes3 |
Czechia | Yes4 | No |
East Germany | Yes5 | No |
Estonia | Yes6 | No |
Greece | Yes1, 7 | Yes8 |
Hungary | Yes4 | No |
Kosovo | Yes1 | Yes |
Latvia | Yes6 | No |
Lithuania | Yes6 | No |
Macedonia | Yes1 | Yes |
Moldova | Yes | No9 |
Montenegro | Yes1 | Yes |
Poland | Yes | No |
Romania | Yes | Yes3 |
Russia | Yes10 | No |
Serbia | Yes1 | Yes |
Slovakia | Yes4 | No |
Slovenia | Yes | Yes3 |
Turkey | No | Yes2, 10 |
Ukraine | Yes | No |
Notes:
Based on this, Eastern Europe (when South Eastern Europe is not distinguished separately) is a near complete superset of the Balkans, so merging these into a single authorisation of "Eastern Europe including the Balkans and the Macedonia naming dispute." would resolve all the issues the OP raises. No actual restrictions would be altered, only the case they are logged under would change. Possibly those who are formally aware of only one scope would need to be informed they are now formally aware of the newly combined scope, but not definitely and this would only be a one-time thing. Thryduulf ( talk) 20:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Agree with the views of User:AGK. There is little upside to modifying the existing sanctions, and a possible downside. Even the present request doesn't give a persuasive reason why a change is required. In the recent AE about Origin of the Romanians nobody made the argument that the topic wasn't covered under WP:ARBEE. Even if ARBEE and ARBMAC do overlap, it's hard to see that as a problem.
Many of the existing DS are about nationalism. In the ideal case, we would have some kind of universal sanction that could be applied to nationalist editing anywhere in the world. EdJohnston ( talk) 21:15, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Speaking as somebody who has helped enforcing both sets of sanctions numerous times, I think there's rarely be much of a problem in determining which rule to apply, even if they overlap. For me, the crux of the matter is really not a mechanistic application of what country counts as belonging to what continental region. Those are pretty arbitrary attributions, and to take just one example, you will rarely find Greece described as belonging to "Eastern Europe", even though obviously its geographical longitude is well within the range of other countries that are. What matters is really more the nature of the underlying political struggles motivating the disruption we find on Wikipedia. Speaking broadly, "Eastern Europe" sanctions have mostly been invoked dealing with ethnic/national conflicts that broke up – directly or indirectly – in the wake of WWII, the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, or the collapse of the Soviet Union. The "Balkans" sanctions have been invoked dealing with conflicts that – directly or indirectly – stem from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the mix of nationalities that was left behind. I'd personally be opposed to merging the two sanction rules. It shouldn't really matter in practice, if it wasn't for the practice of some admin colleagues (unnecessary and not really advisable, in my view, but still common) to hand out sanctions whose scope is always automatically identical with the entire set of topics covered by the DS regime. For instance, instead of topic-banning somebody from Serbian-Croatian conflicts, which might be entirely sufficient in an individual case, they always automatically reach for a topic ban from all Balkan topics, because that's what the DS rule applies to. I'd find it regrettable if these colleagues were to take a merger of the two DS rules as indicating that in the future all such sanctions should be handed out straight for "all of Eastern and Southeastern Europe", which would almost certainly be overreaching in most cases. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
(1) Proposed: At Amendment II in Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans.
(2) Proposed:
|
(3) Proposed:
At Amendment II in Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans. Remedy 3 in Macedonia is superseded by this amendment.
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Doug Weller at 11:32, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
My clarification request concerns the article for Ilhan Omar, a member of the United States House of Representatives. She's a controversial person in part simply because she is a Muslim and in part because of some comments on Israel. I added the usual ARBPIA template at the top of the page and have told some non-ECP editors about the ruling applying to them if they edit related content in the article. I've been asked at Talk:Ilhan Omar#ARBPIA if 1RR applies to the content relating to the dispute. I've always assumed that it doesn't automatically apply and only applies if the {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement}} is added to the talk page and the edit notice {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli editnotice}} added to the article.
I'd like to confirm that:
1. The plain talk page template without {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement}} means that the only restriction on the article applies to non-ECP editors editing within the area of the dispute. 1RR does not apply and cannot apply to only part of an article.
2. If edits to the article not relating to the dispute suggest that the subject is being targeted because of her positions on the dispute (or her Muslim identity) it's permissible to apply ECP to the article without the other restrictions or simply to apply the AE restrictions template even though the article as a whole doesn't fall within the area of the dispute. It's increasingly my opinion that this should be done. Interestingly the article on her fellow Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez also has a section on the dispute but Talk:Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez show it covered only by American Politics but with a 1RR and enforced WP:BRD ( Template:American politics AE).
Doug Weller if you don't mind, I'd like to clarify the question(s) here a bit, as your original request is actually touching on multiple different issues that could be relevant for whether a page is ARBPIA... and I'd like to make clear the options among which we unsure which matches global (as opposed to local i.e. page-respective) en-wiki policy.
1) The simplest of all, that some of Omar's comments that drew controversy were about Israel. She is an American politician though and the controversy is in America. Does this mean it is (a) not ARBPIA at all, (b) ARBPIA for specifically those comments and the ensuing controversy or (c) ARBPIA in total.
2) Probably the comment Ilhan Omar that made the most controversy (aside from mostly religious Christian right-wingers flipping out about her hijab, which I don't personally think is relevant to ARBPIA) is her view that pro-Israel lobbyists have "hypnotized" people. To many Jews, including many progressive Jews, this is an offensive anti-Semitic canard that is all the worse because Omar herself is hypocritically the victim of religious bigotry, while for others, again including people who are Jewish, it is media (especially conservative media) taking what she said out of context. Without commenting on which side is "right", there are actually two questions here:
3) As it stands currently, Doug Weller's writeup mentions Omar's very visible Muslim faith. Islam is not definitively "Israeli/Palestinian domain", however just like antisemitism there is a lot of interaction, as there is a sense of pan-Islamic solidarity regardless of the reality of this solidarity, on both sides. Furthermore, although this fact may be regrettable, by wearing the hijab and by spearheading the effort to allow head coverings in federal government processes, Omar became an iconized living symbol of religious Muslims in the US (again, personally I find this incredibly problematic on many different grounds but it is hard to deny it has become the case) and has been punished for it time and time again by unabashed Islamophobes on social media elsewhere. At first glance this may not seem relevant, but since Doug brought it up, it is worth mentioning that issues of Muslim immigrant assimilation do play a role in debates about how Muslim Americans can relate to American foreign policy (I am not implying all Muslim Americans are anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/or anything whatever, but one cannot deny that this is relevant). Should this also be a consideration? Personally I think, no, but it has already been brought up and is worth asking because I can see another side here as well
Hope I've made the issues here more, not less clear?-- Calthinus ( talk) 14:11, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
@ AGK: But per PIA General 1RR restriction it applies to "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict" and not to the content. I btw agree with you AGK and think it should apply to the content but then the wording should be changed -- Shrike ( talk) 20:23, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Agree with AGK and Shrike: when ARBPIA notice is place, then it is 1RR for the whole article.
As for changing the rules (so that ARBPIA is only for a part of the article)...Please don't. The usefulness of that does not make up for the added level of complication (The rules are more than complicated enough as it is!) Huldra ( talk) 21:22, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
I'd like to introduce this AE case into evidence. The AE case involved, in part, edit warring in Acid throwing - which is mostly not ARBPIA - however Acid throwing#Israel, West Bank and Gaza Strip is very much ARBPIA related. Such ARBPIA sections are common in longer pages - and applying this on the section would make sense. Ilhan Omar is in the border-zone between reasonably and broadly (as much of the coverage of her, through the years, is focused on antisemitism/Israel/etc.) overall, and specific sections of the page are very much ARBPIA related. Icewhiz ( talk) 07:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
I can't actually tell what everyone is proposing in this discussion. The question is whether to apply ARBPIA only to entire articles or selectively to parts of articles. The former would be a simpler rule, but it can also lead to absurdity. A year or so ago there was a huge edit war on List of state leaders in 2016 (or some other year) over the 3 lines that applied to Palestine. It would ridiculous to apply ARBPIA to the other 250 or so items in that list just because of those 3 lines. I think that what we need is something like this: if an article is largely related to the I-P conflict, it is covered in toto; otherwise the parts of an article related to the I-P conflict are covered. Zero talk 08:22, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
To editor TonyBallioni: Your proposal to remove from ARBPIA articles about debate within other countries will impact articles like American Israel Public Affairs Committee and Christians United for Israel, both of them about American organizations that now carry ARBPIA tags. In my view, removing ARBPIA protection from such articles would immediately open them to edit-warring of the kind that ARBPIA is intended to subdue, involving the same editors who edit-war on other ARBPIA articles. I cannot see this as a step forward. Zero talk 05:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
There's a lot of verbiage up there (says the long-winded guy), but the key thing to me is that unusual restrictions like 1RR should never be held to be applicable at a page without the admin-placed editnotices and other templates that explicitly make them so and which are hard to miss. Drama-frought topics are among the most likely to attract new editors, so there's a serious WP:BITE problem here. If I'd ended up blocked my first week of editing, for violating an obscure and excessive rule I didn't know about and which applied only to a particular page, I probably never would have come back. Consider also that new editors can't tell who's an admin, and which concerns to take seriously (lots of noobs get lots of grousing and templates from lots of people; a DS notice from an admin isn't likely to be interpreted as special by someone who doesn't know the ropes yet, but a big warning every time they edit a particular article is harder to ignore). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:07, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Speaking with my AE-admin hat on, I would not consider Ilhan Omar to be under 1RR or the General Prohibition.
Bans are generally constructed as either "pages related to...." or "pages and edits related to....". In this case, both the ARBPIA 1RR restriction and the General Prohibition are constructed as "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict" - ie. the "and edits" is not there. Therefore, when assessing whether these restrictions are being violated, the question is not "Are the edits related to the conflict?" but "Is the page reasonably construed as being related to the conflict?"
I have always seen a difference between "broadly construed" and "reasonably construed" and my understanding is that the "reasonably construed" language was deliberately chosen to be narrower than "broadly construed." My understanding of this language is that "broadly construed" includes any page that has some connection to the conflict, while "reasonably construed" includes only pages on subjects that are mainly about the conflict (or subjects that are mainly notable because of a connection to the conflict). Ilhan Omar is notable as a member of the United States Congress and has made some controversial remarks about the Arab-Israeli conflict; she is related to the conflict, but her principle notability does not come from the conflict. Therefore, the page is not "reasonably construed to be related" and so is not subject to 1RR and the General Prohibition. However, the page is broadly construed to be related, and so is subject to discretionary sanctions.
Clear as mud? GoldenRing ( talk) 12:47, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The way things have worked in the ARBPIA area is quite sensible, although that and the wording of the rulings are probably out of kilter, which, I think, is the reason for the current request. The rulings have been applied to ARBPIA-related content in any page, no matter whether the topic can be construed as being in the ARBPIA part of the project or not. In the former case, the rulings have been applied only to the ARBPIA-related content; editors could edit non-related content on those pages freely. As the usage notes that go along with the template for the ARBPIA notice indicate, the notice does not have to be placed on a page in order for the rulings to apply there. In the page which is the cause of the current request, the Ilhan Omar one, that means that under the practice followed in the past at least, ARBPIA rulings would be enforceable on any ARBPIA-related material there without the notice having been placed. The problem that placing the notice has caused is that editors are questioning whether any of the majority, non-related material there is under editing restrictions or not. We possibly have two problems with the current rulings: one that the wording of the rulings may indicate that those rulings apply only on pages where the subject matter falls wholely within the ARBPIA area when in fact the practice has been to apply them to content anywhere; a second whereby we either don't have a second notice which indicates that only ARBPIA-related content on the relevant page or the notice that we do have does that. The practice that has been followed is sensible and I don't think that it should be altered to conform with what the wording of the rulings actually say. Altering the wording of the rulings and the notice would involve a lot of pain which would still not necessarily end up with a sensible form of wording. Given the wording of the notice which we do have, it would be better if it was only placed on pages whose subject matter, broadly constued, fell wholly within the ARBPIA area, those being ones where it would be sensible to apply the ARBPIA restrictions to most of the material. Following current practice, the absence of the notice would not prevent the restrictions being applied to relevant content in other pages. ← ZScarpia 13:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller:: "I hadn't thought that this was even a grey area but to my disappointment I can't find anything to back my assumption." From following AE requests for years, I'm sure that the ARBPIA restrictions were applied to isolated sections of ARBPIA-related material in articles which weren't otherwise wholly within the subject area. ← ZScarpia 12:51, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
@
Doug Weller:: "The problem (and the reason I've been wrong) is that 1RR and the general 500/30 rule are not actually discretionary sanctions. I think they should be part of DS as I see a lot of drive-by editors and IP addresses (and the cynical side of me says some of these are editors logged out) changing content that's only a minor part of an article." I'm having a little bit of difficulty construing the meaning and significance of the rules being part of discretionary sanctions, which makes me wonder whether I've mistaken what the case is about and whether I've been writing at cross purposes with others here.
My view is that 1RR, which was imposed to slow down edit warring, and 500/30, which was imposed to help combat the use of sockpuppetry to evade sanctions, are restrictions applied to to the editing of all ARBPIA-related material. Discretionary sanctions
[125] in the form of, for example, topic bans may be applied by administrators in order to ensure, inter alia, that restrictions such as those are adhered to ("Discretionary sanctions – administrators may impose sanctions on disruptive editors and apply general restrictions on specific pages in the conflict area in accordance with the discretionary sanctions procedure."
[126]). Viewed that way, the rules are restrictions that automatically apply to ARBPIA-related material which discretionary sanctions enforce, not restrictions which can be applied as sanctions at the discretion of administrators.
It looks to me as though, at route, the problem here is the ambiguity in the phrase "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". How may a page be "related" to the conflict? One interpretation is that the a page's subject matter as expressed in the page title itself should have an obvious connection to the IP conflict. Another interpretation is that the whole of the subject matter should have an obvious connection to the IP conflict. Yet another interpretation is that a relationship may be established if just part of the content is connect. The latter is the one which I'm maintaining is the one which is sensible in terms of reducing strife in Wikipedia and also the one which was traditionally followed on the AE and AI noticeboards. Other editors here such as Icewhiz and AGK seem to be supporting that interpretaion.
Taking the third interpretation, there then follows the problem of determining, in the case of pages where only part of the content is related to the conflict, whether the restrictions such as 1RR and 500/30 apply to the whole content or only the conflict-related parts. Unfortunately, WP:ARBPIA can be interpreted as requiring the restrictions to apply to the whole content, though that is neither necessary or sensible as far as the editing of the non-conflict-related material is concerned. A reason that it is not sensible is on display here: in articles such as the one on Ilhan Omar, editors with no interest in the IP conflict will resist the imposition of the ARBPIA restrictions being imposed if those restrictions are applied to the whole page; yet if they're not applied to the parts of those pages whose content is related to the IP conflict, the end result will be the appearance on those pages of the editing problems which the restrictions were designed to cure.
Roger Waters is most significant for his music career in Pink Floyd. Because he is outspoken on Palestinian rights, though, on Wikipedia there is a struggle to insert conflict-related material condemning or defending him which threatens to swamp the whole article.
Ernest Bevin was British Foreign Secretary at the time when the Cold War was developing and also when the various parts of British India gained independence, yet because he was Foreign Secretary in the couple of years surrounding the creation of Israel, there are similar problems on the article devoted to him.
Jeremy Corbyn has had a long political career and is currently the Leader of the Opposition in the UK parliament, het because he is a strong supporter of Palestinian rights, issues surrounding that again affect that article. The United States is vital to Israeli interests: as a member of the UN Security Council it uses its veto frequently to protect Israel; Israel is the main beneficiary of US overseas aid; US military muscle is used to the benefit of Israel against opponents which Israel itself does not have the resource to fight; US financial muscle can be used to fend of the threat posed by the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement; US courts can be used to wage lawfare on Israeli opponents. Therefore there exists in the US a very strong lobby which protects those interests. The knock-on effect for Wikipedia is that a lot of pages have a partial connection to the IP conflict.
Perhaps a way of resolving the current interpretation problem would be to refer to administrators who were involved in the wording of the ARBPIA rulings and asking what their intentions were and also to administrators who have been involved long-term in enforcing them and asking what their interpretation was.
←
ZScarpia 16:58, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller:: Doug, looking at the Ilhan Omar talkpage, if I've read your comments correctly, you're stating that, in ARBPIA, 1RR and 500/30 are remedies, not discretionary sanctions, which sounds equivalent to what I was trying to say above. The article is interesting in that it contains material falling under two Arbitration Requests, i.e. American Politics and ARBPIA. I think the talkpage demonstrates why the ARBPIA remedies need to be applied to the IP-conflict-related material contained in the article. ← ZScarpia 01:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
The idea that a a notice and template should be a requirement for the 1RR restriction to apply to an article is a no brainer. I mean, the very fact that lots of people have no idea - including apparently some of the Arbs judging by User:Doug Weller's opening statement (not criticizing him, I had no idea either) - that it doesn't work that way, evidences that the way we have it now is just goofy. And sort of... mean. On all other areas under ACDS no notice means no restrictions. Editors who make edits go by the instructions that are visible to them. Yes, yes, I know that you get informed about the 1RR applying to anything "broadly construed" ... once a year. But seriously, unless you're very active in a particular topic area, who the hell can remember some notice they got EIGHT+ months ago on their talk page??? *Especially* since the rules are so different from how it works everywhere else.
The problem of course is that this whole "we'll make up a rule but keep it secret" approach was done by admins who didn't bother to even think of how it works from a regular editors' perspective. The flawed design is a result of "what will make it easier for me to block people" thinking by cowboy admins, rather than "what will make for a more collaborative editing environment". Come to think of it, most of the whole discretionary sanctions apparatus is set up on the basis of that (witness the lack of success that DS has had in most controversial areas) thinking, this is just the most egregious example of that dysfunctional approach. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 10:36, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The General 1RR prohibition of the Palestine-Israel articles arbitration case ( t) ( ev / t) ( w / t) ( pd / t) is amended to read:
The community is encouraged to place the {{ ARBPIA 1RR editnotice}} on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Enacted - Bradv 🍁 02:20, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 105 | Archive 106 | Archive 107 | Archive 108 | Archive 109 | Archive 110 | → | Archive 115 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nyttend at 01:05, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
The restriction on new article creations imposed on Crouch, Swale (talk · contribs) as part of their unban conditions in January 2018 is modified as follows:
- Crouch, Swale is permitted to create new articles only by creating them in his userspace or in the draft namespace and then submitting them to the Articles for Creation process for review. He is permitted to submit no more than one article every seven days. This restriction includes the creation of new content at a title that is a redirect or disambiguation page.
- The one-account restriction and prohibition on moving or renaming pages outside of userspace remain in force.
The original unban conditions were clear: C, S can create pages in userspace and any talk namespace, but nowhere else. Now, the conditions are confusing: he can create pages in userspace, any talk namespace, draftspace, and no articles. But what about other namespaces? Is it necessarily a ban violation to nominate an article for deletion, since that requires the creation of a page in project space, or is it all right as long as it's unrelated to geographic naming? What about creating categories and templates if they're unrelated to geographic naming? Please specify the namespaces where page creation is appropriate, or where it's inappropriate, or give us admins other guidance; I've looked through the discussion at [1] without finding any reference to the issue. I don't have an opinion on what namespaces are good places for him to create pages, and I'm not asking for any particular result: I just want this restriction to be clear. Any user who's come back from a siteban will necessarily have a good deal of scrutiny, and if he creates pages in these namespaces, we're likely to see disputes over whether or not they're ban violations; either he ought to be able to create pages in such namespaces without controversy, or he should know that he's definitely prohibited from such creations. Arbcom can prevent confusion/disputes/etc. by clarifying or outright amending their statement in this area.
It seems that few (if any) people will have any problem with C, S creating the following types of page, so they could be explicitly whitelisted.
The second last bullet should be included, even if he is not permitted to move any pages currently, such that no amendment to this section is required should his restrictions be loosened before being completely removed. Thryduulf ( talk) 00:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Crouch, Swale is permitted to create new articles only by creating them in his userspace or in the draft namespace and then submitting them to the Articles for Creation process for review.
The restriction on page creation imposed on Crouch, Swale ( talk · contribs) as part of their unban conditions in January 2018 is modified as follows:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Thryduulf at 17:18, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
As there are no specific other people involved, I have left notifications at:
In The Troubles arbitration case the committee authorised a remedy that was effectively discretionary sanctions (this was before standardised discretionary sanctions as we know them today had evolved) and as part of that a general 1RR restriction was imposed. Later, the old remedy was replaced by discretionary sanctions, incorporating the 1RR restriction. However, because of the way these sanctions have evolved the scope of the DS topic area is stated differently in different places and this is causing confusion (see for example [[Talk:#DS notice]]). What I believe to be the full history of the scope(s) and where I found them is detailed at User:Thryduulf/Troubles scope but what I understand to be the differing scopes presently in force are (numbered for ease of reference only):
British Baronets were formerly part of some of the scopes, but that was unambiguously removed by a previous committee.
I am asking the committee to:
Request 1 does lead to the need to determine what the scope should be. In my view, formed following some discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland and Talk:Great Famine (Ireland) and looking at various articles and talk pages is that there are only two that need considering:
The Ulster Banner does not need to be separately mentioned - the Ulster Banner article is quiet and is not even tagged and while the Flag of Northern Ireland article would benefit from continued inclusion in the discretionary sanctions regime it is firmly within either scope suggested above.
The Easter Rising topic area is unquestionably within the scope of suggestion B and is reasonably interpreted as also being within the scope of suggestion A as crucial background to it.
Whether the Great Famine (Ireland) is within the scope of either A or B is less clear, nor is there clear consensus whether it should be - more input than I was able to attract prior to the request is needed here. Thryduulf ( talk) 17:18, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Black Kite, GoodDay, EdJohnston, and Scolaire: letting you know about the suggested motion below in case you have any more comments. Thryduulf ( talk) 21:46, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Per SilkTork's request, here is my suggestion for the salient points of a clarification motion. It needs some introductory text and may need some wordsmithing
Note to the clerks: If this (or some similar motion) passes the scope of the DS authorisation will need to be updated at Template:Ds/topics and Template:ArbCom Troubles restriction as well as the case pages linked. Thryduulf ( talk) 19:44, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
(B) would be better, in my opinion ... one could argue for the second section to specifically include the use of the term "British Isles", but that will probably be sufficient.
If I remember correctly, the issues with the Ulster Banner weren't particularly on that article itself, but edit-warring to include the Banner instead of the Irish flag / Union Jack (depending on context) and vice-versa on BLPs and other articles that included flags and flagicons. Black Kite (talk) 17:44, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I would caution that 1RR may need to be kept in place, during the Brexit process which effects the British/Irish border & thus related articles. GoodDay ( talk) 19:30, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm for anything, that'll prevent 'edit wars' around this topic. GoodDay ( talk) 21:53, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Per a motion passed this year, the 1RR which is currently in place for Troubles articles is due to the decision by an administrator to impose it under discretionary sanctions. (Most likely it is due to this log entry by User:Timotheus Canens in the fall of 2011. The idea of a blanket Troubles 1RR didn't originate with him, it used to be a community sanction before that). So, if anybody thinks that the blanket 1RR should be adjusted they could (in theory) appeal it at AE. Personally, I can see the advantages of single-page 1RRs that could be applied by individual administrators.
According to Canens, the scope of the case is "..reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland.." In my view, this is an adequate description of the scope and I wouldn't advise the committee to get really specific as to which articles are in or out. Admins shouldn't take action unless the nature of the edits suggests that nationalism is at work in the minds of at least some of the editors. Modern nationalism can cause problems with articles that seem tangential, as when editors who are warned about WP:ARBMAC get into wars about Alexander the Great, since the word 'Macedonia' occurs there. Yet the ARBMAC decision did not mention our article on Alexander the Great, nor should it. Even so, the ARBMAC sanctions would reasonably apply to any nationally-motivated editing of that article. EdJohnston ( talk) 20:09, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I have nothing extra to bring to the general discussion. It was always my belief that the scope of the sanctions should be B, and this seems to be the arbs' view as well. I would just note that, in the Famine article, there was this edit within the last week. The historiography of the famine is still very much a battleground between Irish nationalists and British nationalists. The article has had a Troubles restriction template on the talk page since 2009. I don't see any point in removing it now. Scolaire ( talk) 15:00, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Thryduulf: Is "'Ireland' has the standard geographical and political meanings" a phrase that has commonly been used in the past? It's not clear to me what it's saying. Where are the standard meanings posted and who set the standards? And is there a political meaning that's different from the geographical meaning(s) – one that includes Boston, Massachusetts or Celtic Park, Glasgow, for instance? If there is no bureaucratic reason for having this, I would leave it out. If there is, I would rephrase it so it is unambiguous. Scolaire ( talk) 11:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Thryduulf and Joe Roe: I have already pointed out the ambiguity in the word "country" in regard to Ireland. Building ambiguity into a "clarification" makes no sense. The word "state" is used exclusively in the Irish Manual of Style. It was also the word used in the 2009 Poll on Ireland article names authorised by Arbcom, and in any number of discussions on WT:IE and WT:IECOLL. If you're going to go ahead with 6b (which I still think is just wordiness for the sake of wordiness), please change "country" to "state". Scolaire ( talk) 10:14, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Imalbornoz at 00:47, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Point #8 of the decision: “In the event that disruptive editing resumes in any of these topic-areas, a request to consider reinstating discretionary sanctions in that topic-area may be made on the clarifications and amendments page.”
Since November 2018 there has been disruptive editing from the users involved in the Gibraltar case:
The focus of discussion: During Gibraltar’s capture in 1704 there were very notorious (at the time) events of rapes, plundering and defilement of Catholic churches; [6] after the surrender the population was only allowed to stay if they changed their allegiance to the invaders’ faction; 98% of the 4,000 Spanish population fled, most of them forever, and settled up mainly in the rest of the Gibraltar municipality, which would later become “Campo de Gibraltar”; they took with them the city council files, historical symbols, etc. and kept the legacy of Spanish Gibraltar. [7] These are facts mentioned by all relevant sources. They have been used by Spanish nationalists to support their irredentist claims (in the UN’s committee for decolonization, for example), and aren’t comfortable for British nationalists (none of which should affect Wikipedia). WCM, with Kahasok’s help, has been removing these facts from Gibraltar articles.
Antecedents (notice repetitive behavior):
Since November 2018, Wee Curry Monster, with the help of Kahastok, and some “good guys” in WCM’s list, [15] has been editing tendentiously across several articles the specific issues involved in the Gibraltar case, removing facts that are supported by all secondary sources, using arbitrary excuses (first ignoring previous consensus, then arguing inaccuracy, then copyvio, “excessive quotes”, opposite consensus…) and rejecting dispute resolution.
Examples of tendentious editing:
They aren’t repeating the extreme verbal abuse that got WCM banned, nor do they ignore 3RR. They just keep pushing their POV:
@ Rockysantos, although there was no census in Spain before Floridablanca's in 1787, the consensus in secondary sources (Maurice Harvey, George Hills, Stephen Constantine, Isidro Sepúlveda, Peter Gold...) is that at the time of the capture there were around 4,000 inhabitants (1,200 households) and only 70 individuals stayed, and in any case all sources agree that most of the population left and only a few individuals remained. You can take a look here. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 18:09, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I was not aware of the problem about outing. I knew WCM had changed his user name but I didn't know it was off-limits to mention this when referring to past actions (in fact, I thought it was necessary to allow other editors to understand old diffs). The same with Kahastok. Please accept my apologies.
Regarding WCM's talk page, I have used it as little as possible and always with a very civil and constructive approach. Please, Arbcom, check my comments in WCM's talk page here, here and here. I have looked for alternatives to contact WCM and solve things out, such as the only e-mail I have sent him and which is not offensive at all (if you want we can post it here or send it to the Arbcom). Sometimes it's necessary to discuss things outside of the articles' talk pages.
I have always encouraged WCM to write in my talk page, in spite of his very extreme verbal abuse, personal attacks and vandalism on my talk page in the past. I have really tried to understand him and reach out to him, but I think some kind of battleground mentality has got in the way. That's why I think an arbcom guided RfC would be a good way to move forward. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 19:15, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
@ MarshalN20, of course I have not accused British editors of being POV pushers. As a matter of fact, during past disputes Richard Keatinge, The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick were very neutral and supported the inclusion of the facts that WCM and Kahastok have removed. I am a very great admirer of British culture (that's one of the reasons I made the effort to learn English). If you forget about the persons and focus on the edits, you will see they are removing information which they said was "Spanish propaganda", but which is factual and supported by all sources. They have done that 8 years ago and now, with inconsistent (even contradictory) arguments, ignoring other editors' comments and rejecting dispute resolution. On the other hand, they are including information that is much less prominent in reliable sources. I have been very patient with WCM (even when he made very aggressive personal attacks in the past I did not ask for Arbcom and allowed him to reconsider his attitude). But after 8 years my conclusion is that, in this specific case, I don't know whether out of a nationalist POV or personal animosity towards me, he has been a POV pusher. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 19:57, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I totally agree with Bryan Henderson. In fact, that's precisely my point:
Maybe WCM and Kahastok are right. Maybe I am. Maybe I am biased, or maybe they are. In any case, we won't know what other editors think if we keep acting this way.
My analysis for myself is: I can
The fact is that the period of best advance in Gibraltar related articles was when the three of us were away from them (during the last enforcement of the DS).
That's why I am asking to reinstate the discretionary sanctions to stop us from disrupting the discussion and start some approach to include less involved editors. Maybe with the RfC that was recommended in the last enforcement? - Imalbornoz ( talk) 23:24, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Richard is a rare example of an editor who had no previous involvement in the article and one day payed enough interest to participate, bringing a neutral point of view into the discussion for months. His comment about "operating oneself without anaesthesic" is expressive of what it feels like to discuss in the Gibraltar article environment with WCM and Kahastok. He will probably never edit in this area again, as I haven't for years. The same happens with other users like The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick, Ecemaml or Cremallera. Something needs to be done.
Finally, I honestly think that Gibraltar related articles need some fresh air with the input of new editors. I think the articles will be very biased if we let WCM and Kahastok “own” them with the things I’ve seen this last couple of months. The best way to move forward, I think, is to reinstate the discretionary sanctions. I think it would also be a good idea to start a series of “controlled” RfCs (meaning someone should stop us from overflowing other editors with our comments) regarding several issues in the articles (the first of which would be the exodus episode). The other option is that (as Kahastok has repeatedly proposed) I “drop the stick and back away from the horse carcass.” ;o)
Thank you very much for your attention. – Imalbornoz ( talk) 20:02, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I would like to point out that my request deals with the behaviours shown by WCM, Kahastok, and maybe myself, not the contents.
If the Arbcom sees our behaviours as problematic but has doubts about the age of the original case, I think there will be no problem to have evidence showing the continuity in behaviours, editors and other circumstances.
But if they see no issue about behaviour, then I guess I will have to recognize my perception was wrong and accept that this request is declined.
In the case the discretionary sanctions are not reinstated, I don't think I will have the time or the energy to start (again) a dispute resolution process without the DS protection. The last time, it took two years to find a way out of the disputes in the Gibraltar article, with several frustrated mediators, aborted RfCs, and tens of thousands of lines in article talk pages (and in the end, the solution was to have WCM, Kahastok and myself out of the articles for 1.5 years). If this is the scenario, I guess I will be happy to leave the Gibraltar related articles in the hands of WCM and Kahastok, like Richard Keatinge, The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick, Cremallera, or Ecemaml, and wish the best luck to any editor who tries to build NPOV consensus in that area of interest.
Anyhow, whatever the result of the Arbcom, I thank the arbitrators for taking their time to look into this matter and offer us a way out of the deadlock. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 09:18, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. - Imalbornoz ( talk) 11:32, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
I have sought advice from my mentor Nick-D on how to deal with this editor. I have followed his advice scrupulously and avoided any repeat of any behaviour that is sanctionable. This filing seems to be an abuse of the system for this editor to get his own way in a content dispute. He has adopted his usual tactics of flinging enough mud around and hoping it will stick.
On my user page, I list a number of editors I admire. These are editors I admire for the quality of their edits not because of personal association. I have for example held opposing positions to that of MarshalN20 and Apcbg and I am sure Drmies would acknowledge we frequently disagree on matters. I consider it a gross and egregious presumption of bad faith that he would malign editors such as these in an attempt to smear me. (To answer your question Drmies, you've been on the list since I created it in March 2015, except for a brief period when we annoyed each other).
It is apparent that Imalbornoz has been following me to different articles, in many cases articles he has never edited before. In each case, he has simply reverted my changes, with the comment I have to seek a consensus with him before I am allowed to make any changes. Examples: [81], [82], [83], [84].
Sometime ago, I requested Imalbornoz did not post to my talk page [85]. I did so because I found that his postings on my talk page were not productive and mainly accusing me and other editors of misconduct. He has repeatedly ignored that request. Examples [86], [87], [88], [89]. Further, on 15th December I had cause to remind this editor not to contact me by email [90] as he had sent me rather an offensive email that I immediately deleted.
I have also noted that he has badgered any editor who has commented. Examples: [91], [92], [93].
He also badgered editors where I have sought policy guidance, trying to get them to change their advice. Examples: [94], [95].
The talk page history is informative, [96] this editor has completely dominated the discussion, deterring outside comment with walls of text. Compare this with my own minimal replies to this editor [97]. His behaviour is characteristic of WP:BLUDGEON.
I previously edited using my own name. Due to off-wiki harassment, I changed my username and have avoided using my own name since. Admins are fully aware of this and any past sanction is registered against my current username. Imalbornoz is fully aware of this, knew there was no need to refer to it and yet has chosen to WP:OUT me once again. I have requested my previous username is redacted.
I have more to comment but that would probably be more appropriate for an SPI report I am considering filing. W C M email 18:04, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
To answer Rockysantos's question. I am not aware of there being any census data, the figures quoted are estimates based on eye witness testimony and vary between 4-6000. W C M email 18:07, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Can I ask that anyone considering the OP use of diffs be aware that they are very selective and are designed to mislead. e.g. in Capture of Gibraltar he claims I've removed mention of what he terms "atrocities". This diff [98] shows this to be untrue; this is my edit with extensive quotations and sources concerning precisely this topic. I also ask you to consider his use of none neutral language. All I did was move mention to a more logical chronological order, expanding it to represent the range of views in the literature. Yet he's presenting a diff as if it were permanently removed. W C M email 19:24, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Another example [99] he claims I'm removing my edit because I want to remove all mention of the events of 1704. In Talk:Gibraltar I repeatedly state I don't want to and it was removed after his insistence that there is no consensus for it [100]. W C M email 19:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I thank Giraffedata for his comments and would like to add a small response. I have deliberately tried to keep my comments to a minimum to allow other editors to comment. I have also tried to focus solely on content. However, I find it difficult to avoid responding when you have an editor repeatedly demanding you reply on unrelated matters [101], [102], [103]. It's also difficult to avoid responding when an editor is making untrue statements about your editing history e.g. naming me as an editor responsible for an edit [104] when I'd already pointed out I was not [105].
If you feel I've deterred you from commenting I would like to apologise and assure you that was not my intention. W C M email 17:35, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I think it's helpful to remind arbcom of Richard's comment that he only reverted my edits previously [106] for a giggle.
I am requesting that both Richard Keatinge and Imalbornoz are admonished for comments about the motives of other editors. I am tired of the accusation by both editors that Kahastok and I are suppressing information, which they have been repeating for nearly a decade. This repeated demonstration of bad faith cannot be allowed to continue, if this is not addressed they will be emboldened to continue being uncivil and generating a poisonous atmosphere.
One only has to look at my own editing history to instantly see this is untrue. Examples User:Wee Curry Monster/Gibraltar NPOVN, User:Wee Curry Monster/Gibraltar Sandpit, History of Gibraltar#War of the Spanish Succession (1701–14), Capture of Gibraltar#Aftermath e.g. [107].
This was a recurring statement leading up to and following the arbcom case [108], [109], [110] despite rebuttals from literature [111] and [112]. As was accusations that editors were suppressing information [113].
“ |
|
” |
Although sourced as the opinion of Garret(1939), a cursory examination of the literature shows it to be untrue. The events are described accurately in Hills (1974), Bradford (1971), Francis (1975), Jackson (1990), Andrews (1958) and Garratt (1939). In 1845, Ayala a Spanish work is translated verbatim into English by T.James (1845) note also Sayer (1862), Martin (1887), Drinkwater (1824). Admiral Byng and Reverend Pocock wrote detailed eye witness accounts from a personal perspective. All of which document the events to 1704. Aside from anything else the 70 yr old opinion of an author (Garratt) has no bearing on a content discussion and most certainly should never be used to impugn other editors. It was repeatedly and it still is.
The point that I and others have tried to make, which both Richard and Imalbornoz refuse to acknowledge, is that it is not necessary or desirable to mention extensive details in each and every article obliquely related to Gibraltar. This is the locus of the problem, they have sought to force edits into several articles where this level of detail is inappropriate per WP:WEIGHT. W C M email 19:05, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I have noted above that there is frequent reference by Imalbornoz, repeated by Richard Keatinge, that Kahastok and I are excluding information for POV reasons. As I've pointed out one of the very articles they linked in their evidence was written by me; it's clearly untrue. This is A) uncivil and B) a long standing and peristent failure to assume good faith and enter into consensus discussions with an open mind. This alone has been responsible for creating a hostile atmosphere and it clearly can't be allowed to continue. I'm not suggesting blocks or bans but an admonishment or even a simple WP:TROUT seems warranted to me. I would urge you to consider putting this to bed please. W C M email 13:12, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@ SilkTork
Can I also ask you to consider the point I raised above.
I fear that Imalbornoz is being very economical with the truth and ask you to note, as Kahastok and I have already commented, Imalbornoz is presenting diffs in a highly misleading manner. It's also worth bringing to your attention that throughout the period referred to by this editor he had no sources in his possession. Rather he made an edit, then tried to justify it by using sources found using Google snippets. He also tried to argue weight could be determined in the same way by constructing metrics based on google snippet searches and tried to use the same technique to argue other editors were biased. He has never to my mind considered the range of opinion in the literature, rather he is selective in his selection of facts to give an unbalanced view.
The problems with past RFC obtaining outside opinion was that Imalbornoz and Richard Keatinge actively deterred it with the practised technique of posting walls of text and raising multiple irrelevant issues to confuse matters. As an example, during mediation I made a comment about the multiple issues in the way an edit was being formulated [115]. I raised this at WP:NORN at the request of the mediator User:Lord Roem [116]. Imalbornoz disrupted this by raising multiple issues that were not pertinent to that discussion [117]. As discussion diverted from the issue relevant to the noticeboard I asked a focussed question for outside opinion [118], Richard Keatinge immediately followed this by again raising matters that were irrelevant [119].
They also disrupted RFC, as an example [120]. Imalbornoz posted a wall of text, then Richard completely hijacked it and rewrote it [121] so it did not address any of the issues raised.
You will find that I have not refused a suggestion of an RFC or outside opinion, nor would I but I would add it is likely to be deterred by the walls of text posted by Imalbornoz. I would in fact welcome outside opinion, in point of fact when Imalbornoz and Richard Keatinge were removed from the article by the sanctions he is seeking to have re-imposed, outside editors more or less immediately restored the article in line with what I had been arguing was appropriate for an overview.
I learnt a couple of lessons from the past. One is not to respond to every argumentative comment as it can give the appearance of a WP:Battle, the second was to walk away and not respond to deliberate provocation. I also ask you to note that the circumstances were very different the last time, my mental health was in a mess and I really shouldn't have been editing. None of the behaviours that have lead to past sanctions have been repeated, nor will they be. W C M email 14:32, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
This request is a case of an editor who - having failed to get consensus by continually badgering people on a talk page for months on end - is now trying to use Arbcom to do an end run around the consensus building process instead of just dropping the stick.
Initial notes:
The content dispute is that Imalbornoz believes that Wikipedia's articles on Gibraltar should give a great deal of weight to the circumstances of the foundation of the Spanish town of San Roque in 1706. His focus on this narrow point is extreme to the point that he resembles an WP:SPA: probably 95% of his edits in the last two months, and probably 70-80% of his edits all time, are on this specific point.
In terms of the specific situation we're in, this is reasoanbly straightforward. I quote the second paragraph of WP:NOTUNANIMITY:
Insisting on unanimity can allow a minority opinion to filibuster the process. If someone knows that the group cannot move forward without their consent, they may harden their position in order to get their way. This is considered unacceptable on Wikipedia as a form of gaming the system, as well as tendentious editing. There is even a three revert rule to limit efforts to stonewall the editing process.
Imalbornoz appears to believe that his consent is necessary for any consensus to be reached. As such, he has been filibustering the process, badgering editors [1] and insisting that there can be no "real consensus" [2] without him. WCM and I - and others - spent weeks trying to include Imalbornoz in a consensus, but this proved impossible. Note frustration with Imalbornoz's methods here and here for example - and that neither of those comments came from me or WCM.
For me, it is reasonably obvious from a reading of the talk page that there is consensus for this text - once you take account of the stated positions of all involved editors (not just the three named editors here), and of the fact that Imalbornoz is a single editor and not entitled to a veto.
If I thought further dispute resolution would get a consensus that included Imalbornoz, I would agree to it. But Imalbornoz's behaviour - the filibustering, the badgering, the endless repetition of rejected proposals with no attempt made to resolve the objections raised to them, the repeated misrepresentation of others' positions (as noted in footnotes above, plus particularly the quote at the bottom of this wall of text that was taken entirely out of context) - demonstrates to me that this is highly unlikely. And having had this start before Christmas, I think very few of us want to still be having the same discussion next Christmas as well.
If any action is needed at this point to avoid a repeat of the previous car crash, it is to prevent Imalbornoz from raising this point again. Everyone else can work together constructively. All other editors can leave this point and deal with other things - have in fact left this point and spent the last two weeks dealing with other things. Any problems still needing resolution are the result solely of Imalbornoz's refusal to allow this discussion to end. Kahastok talk 12:34, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Following WCM's lead and going through some of the diffs in Imalbornoz's text, turns out I shouldn't have bothered looking up examples of his misrepresenting others' edits in the discussion because he's done it over and over in his statement on this very page. The timeline is confused, the text in several cases false, the choice of diffs misleading. I only find it disappointing that I am not surprised - Imalbornoz's standard WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality in full flow there.
In terms of the outcome of this, to be clear: I see no particular need to add discretionary sanctions in the general case, I feel that would be excessive based on a single discussion. But at the same time, in the general case, if an editor is not willing to drop the stick on his own, it's reasonable to ask that he be required to drop the stick by the community for the good of the encyclopedia. This discussion cannot continue for ever. But I think I can say with confidence that nobody bar Imalbornoz wants it to. Kahastok talk 09:13, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
A few points to bear in mind when reading this:
Imalbornoz and Richard Keatinge now both appear to be trying to relitigate the events of 2010-2011. Why? For my part, I have no interest in that. It's 2019. The past is the past.
Taking only what's happened at Talk:Gibraltar, there are behavioural issues. I described them above. Do they require discretionary sanctions? No, not at this point. They require a WP:TROUT. Mentoring would probably help if Imalbornoz intends to return to the topic. But if this had gone to WP:ANI, I'd expect nothing further based on what has happened at Talk:Gibraltar. But I am concerned about the effect of this process on future discussion.
When Imalbornoz first came back, he started a different dispute. The discussion on this point is here. The question was controversial - he knew it had the potential to become heated (and made that point several times) - but we reached consensus quickly. Imalbornoz accepted my proposal the day after the first revert. But in his edit accepting the compromise, and three more times afterward, he was still trying to start the argument. And when he gave up on that one he immediately started trying have an argument over San Roque - another point that he knew was likely to raise the temperature.
If you wanted to raise the temperature at this article now, after the discussion we had - that, I remind you, finished a full two weeks ago - an effective way of doing it would be to bring the dispute here as Imalbornoz did, and make the sorts of statements that Imalbornoz has made.
There is a pattern here.
If we finish this now, and Imalbornoz comes back, I will do my best to ignore all this, to lower the temperature, to continue to edit in a constructive manner with all participants, trying to reach the best consensus we can reach given the views of all the editors involved. But that's not going to work if others - Imalbornoz included - are not similarly committed to lowering the temperature. I simply do not get that impression from the edits I see here. Kahastok talk 21:30, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Note, modified by Kahastok talk at 23:14, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
This is a classic example of a content dispute between a single-purpose account, Imalbornoz, and just about everyone else who has been active on the article, where Imalbornoz stubbornly refuses to accept that other editors don't share their views, and just continues to push their POV, repeating the same arguments over and over again, ad nauseam. Having crossed the border to tendentious editing a long time ago. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 13:26, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
It's generally agreed some people had left Gibraltar when the British took over, however is there any census we can look at to prove this? The government of Gibraltar has on its website broken down the population in it's earliest census from 1753:-
The results then were: British 434; Genoese 597; Jews 575; Spaniards 185, and Portuguese 25.
Is there one from before this that shows the population and how it was before the British took over? This would show if the word exodus is justified.
https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/gibraltar-census-history -- Rockysantos ( talk) 11:01, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Above was my statement back in December, which was never really clearly answered.
Is there a census from before the aledged exodus? If so where is it and what are the figures, once that is established can it be proven that the population on mass left Gibraltar for San Roque? Is there a census that shows that Gibraltar had a population of say 5000 then 0 and San Roques census then rose by 5000?-- Rockysantos ( talk) 13:20, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm very pleased to see that I'm on WCM's "good guys" list. I don't know how old or new it is, but I do know WCM hasn't always felt about me that way, haha. Anyway, I'm not here because of WCM but rather the editor filing the request: let there be no more outing. This isn't the place to discuss what outing is, what its parameters etc. are--just accept it, no more outing. Drmies ( talk) 15:24, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Having worked with WCM and several Argentine editors to resolve contentious issues in the Falkland Islands article (in 2014), which is now a featured article, I can attest to WCM's value as an experienced editor and community member. Controversial topics can be adequately covered in Wikipedia, and WCM has proven expertise in achieving it. Kahastok accurately indicates that the crux of the content problem concerns the "Campo de Gibraltar" population. Imalbornoz accuses WCM and British editors for "POV pushing," when in reality what is happening is a difference of opinion. My understanding of " POV pushing" is that it promotes fringe perspectives. What is the literature or historiography on the topic? Reading the content article's talk page, this is unclear. Therefore, the claim of "POV pushing" is also unclear.
In fact, given the lack of clarity, it seems abusive (behavior-wise) for Imalbornoz to accuse the British editors as being "POV pushers". It's an uncivil defamation of character, which unfortunately often goes without remedy in administration/arbitration boards. Even more concerning (also behavior-wise) is Imalbornoz's outing of the other editors. In my book, these are both clear battleground mentality actions that reveal a lot more about Imalbornoz's behavior than that of the other editors.-- MarshalN20 ✉ 🕊 19:26, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I follow the Gibraltar article and participated a little in the discussion others have discussed here, which started in December and featured mainly the editors whose discretionary sanction status is the subject of this amendment request.
I would have participated more, but I could not keep my head above the flood of argument between User:Imalbornoz on one side and User:Wee Curry Monster and User:Kahastok on the other. There is clearly something going on between these editors, as this continued for six weeks, meandering from here to there with no apparent hope of editors on one side changing minds on the other and what looks like heavy biases that prevent one side from even considering the other side's argument. Perhaps because of history they have with each other. Furthermore, about half of the discussion is meta-discussion ("You're not arguing properly").
But I don't see that that has any bearing on the amendment request, which is to reinstate discretionary sanction status. I don't see that any of these editors have done anything or is likely to do anything in the future that would result in a discretionary sanction.
Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) ( talk) 22:34, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I endorse Imalbornoz's point on the underlying content dispute; there is a longstanding campaign to keep out of Gibraltar-related articles details of the serious violence committed against civilians by the mainly-English forces that captured the town in 1704. This violent episode is a significant part of the ongoing Spanish feelings for the place. Histories in English have tended to downplay or even omit it, doing I feel a disservice to any reader who wants a holistic understanding. A coterie of editors (who have done good work elsewhere) have demonstrated remarkable devotion and ingenuity in the cause of omitting or downplaying it on Wikipedia. The discussion has been colossal, repetitive (often diverging into rather dubious procedural points), and wasteful of goodwill. I feel that this does a disservice to Wikipedia. We have also seen editors from other points of view, but in the face of vast argumentation they have generally decided to leave this ghastly dispute. I have profound empathy with their decision. Rather than engage in the dispute again, I would prefer to operate on my own piles without anaesthetic.
Imalbornoz makes a specific request, that admins should again be empowered to issue discretionary sanctions on editors on this subject. (This power was a part of the resolution that did, for a while, cool down the whole dispute.) This might well help a suitable (interested and robust) admin to prevent the content dispute from wasting further immense amounts of time and goodwill. I therefore support the idea, or any other that will bring an appropriate degree of constructiveness and courtesy to the issue. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
When Arbcom first passed one of these housekeeping motions, I assume their thinking was that the disputes had quiesced and were no longer a problem. If one of these disputed areas happens to come back to life, with a lot of similarity in the issues raised, this suggests that the housekeeping should be undone. Making the participants file a whole new case seems to undo the 'housekeeping' rationale which suggests only a small matter of tidying up of things no longer needed. If the committee correctly identified the nature of the dispute the first time around, and made a reasonable choice of a sanction regime, that understanding should still hold if the dispute begins again. It is more labor-intensive to do something in a full case than at AE. EdJohnston ( talk) 02:52, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Imalbornoz: my reading of that housekeeping motion, which is now over four years old, is that it allows a request like this - it doesn't guarantee that the DS will automatically be reinstated. The intent of the motion was that it would allow a quick resumption of the sanctions if the same problems as before reappeared as they were. However, the arbitrators have examined this request and looked at the evidence presented and determined that the issues this time are different to the issues that resulted in the sanctions being imposed in 2010 and they are not convinced that discretionary sanctions are the right tool for the current dispute. That doesn't mean there ins't a dispute, it just means that the arbitrators are of the opinion that this is a different dispute that the community should be allowed to attempt to resolve first. Thryduulf ( talk) 19:42, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by MattLongCT at 01:26, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
15) The standard discretionary sanctions adopted in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate for (among other things) "all edits about, and all pages related to... any gender-related dispute or controversy... broadly construed" continue to remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea Manning. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at the Gamergate case, not this one.
I am seeking a clarification and proposed amendment to Manning concerning its current relevance in regards to enforceable actions. The case in question has not had a formal amendment since 2013. Currently, the case is in a grey area since it cites Sexology even though the case had its discretionary sanctions since rescinded. This has not been noted anywhere in the page for Manning.
However, it is listed in
Wikipedia:General sanctions#Obsolete sanctions. Separately,
Template:Ds/alert says:
Pages dealing with transgender issues including
Chelsea Manning... and
Manning naming dispute) (superseded by the
GamerGate decision.)
(Gamergate never explicitly did this according to its case page.)
I fail to see any consistency for what the exact status of Manning is supposed to be. In resolving this, my proposal is that the remedies continue forward with only a slight amendment to show that the case now serves as a clarification of Gamergate. This field of debate still has much activity, so in my view having this exact case to fall back on would be preferable. Gamergate did not once reference LGBT+ issues specifically, so I do not see the problem of having this Manning serve to supplement it.
For the record, this is my first time ever posting in WP:ArbCom, so that might be nice to know. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk- ☖ 04:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
It would be simpler to do that; I would agree. However, my preference is for an amendment over a rescision. One could reasonably interpret GamerGate as not including transgender or preferred pronoun debate. Maybe it's just me who has noticed it, but I don't think that Manning has been applied much since Gamergate was issued. For example, I took a look at discussions such as this one, and I can't seem to find a single instance where a person was formally notified of GamerGate DS (including users named in GamerGate). I did find instances of users being notified of the Sexology Discretionary Sanctions. For that particular discourse, I could not find a single instance of GG/DS applied during that Early June 2015 period (I found one GG/DS alert from months later).
In my view, if the committee felt that Sexology was too ambiguous in 2013 to find a need for Remedy 15 of Manning, then I would say that should go double for GamerGate. It's more broad than Sexology sure, but that is why this clarification is needed and would ensure that it is applied properly and consistently. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk- ☖ 22:01, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I have been keeping up with the statements made in this request. I have begun to notice that discussion has drifted away from my original question somewhat. Therefore, I am presenting this secondary statement.
First of all, in response to Katie's question, I am grateful of BU Rob13 for noting their December 2016 Request. However, I will state that I intentionally did not include in this request any mention of nor make any request related to GGTF. My intention was simply to clean up the issues associated with the inconsistent application of DS/alerts in LGBT-related topics.
Originally, my participation in this RfC brought me to this conclusion. To elaborate: though there is a gender-related dispute concerning the Matrix, the DS Talk page template has not been placed. I found this odd for such a controversial dispute.
Furthermore, and not to sound like a Wikilawyer, it is of my belief that by removing Remedy 15, the committee would give credence to those that might corrupt the committee's intentions for doing so. This could falsely give credence to the belief that Transgender-related topics are no longer controversial and don't fall under the DS regime anymore. There are certainly some parliamentary procedural viewpoints that may justify this view. I would rather keep Remedy 15 as it is rather than seeing it be striked in all honesty. It just leads to more questions of "intent of ArbCom." I primarily just want to avoid those disingenuous discussions before they really come up.
Penultimately, I will say that if the committee was to move to formally supercede GGTF, then they would also most likely have to amend or rescind Remedy 1.1 of Arbitration enforcement 2 which cites that case (more specifically this motion). The whole thing is rather complicated, so that is why I sticking with my original request. Otherwise we dig way too deep into the weeds here.
Finally, Guerillero just taught me a new idiom: Tempest in a teapot. I would say that would be a fair criticism to apply to this request, yeah. This is really just glorified housekeeping.
Thank you all! ― Matthew J. Long -Talk- ☖ 23:42, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
I do agree with their concerns. Aesthetically, GGTF is a nicer case to put this all under, yet Gamergate was the one of the two to outgrow its original jurisdiction for whatever reason. However, we could just rename the case something like GGTF 2 or Gender-related Disputes if we are so inclined. Just a thought. I am happy with the current motion as it stands either way. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk- ☖ 16:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
The GamerGate scope seems purposely broad enough to cover earlier cases like Manning or GGTF, and similar issues in the future. I don't think anyone would win an argument claiming that transgender-related issues are outside of that scope, though I suppose it would be harmless to explicitly include them. I think the related DS are regularly applied and I would guess that editors in those areas are widely aware. Maybe warnings are not logged or aren't where you're looking, or maybe I'm wrong and it could be more widely publicized.
I guess narrowness is likable in sanctions, but for this I don't think it would be an improvement. Seren_ Dept 03:47, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
I support this change - it doesn't make much difference to the way this remedy will be enforced, but nonetheless it's worth being explicit about these things. There are bad faith editors who will attempt to adhere to the word of the sanction and not the spirit - may as well tighten down the wording to match the intention. -- a. get in the spam hole | get nosey 10:20, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Seems like a storm in a teacup to me. Manning didn't create any sanctions; it was only reminding people of the sanctions that were already in place at the time of the case. The sanctions that were rescinded in the Sexology motion were de facto recreated when we voted to impose the GamerGate sanctions less than a year later. If people strongly care, you could redirect people to GamerGate to make it covered de jure, but that seems to be at the discretion of admins at AE on a particular request. As for GGTF, the sanctions 100% GamerGate sanctions.
The gender gap on Wikipedia is indisputably falls under any gender-related dispute or controversy. Since DS have been standardized for close to a decade and logging has happened on the same page for 5 years, deciding if the sanction should be logged in section A or section B is pretty much the only confusion that can happen. -- Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
MattLongCT's idea to rename the case something like "Gender-related disputes" is a good one and not without precedent - "Footnoted Queries" was renamed by motion to "Editing of Biographies of Living Persons" when it outgrew it's original scope. Thryduulf ( talk) 18:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
To consolidate and clarify gender-related discretionary sanctions, the Arbitration Committee resolves that:
The standard discretionary sanctions adopted inWikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/SexologyWikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate for (among other things)"all articles dealing with transgender issues""all edits about, and all pages related to ... any gender-related dispute or controversy" and associated persons remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea/Bradley Manning. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at theSexologyGamerGate case, not this one.
The standard discretionary sanctions adopted in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate for (among other things) "all edits about, and all pages related to ... any gender-related dispute or controversy" remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any discussion regarding systemic bias faced by female editors or article subjects on Wikipedia, including any discussion involving the Gender Gap Task Force. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at the GamerGate case, not this one.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0 | 5 |
1–2 | 4 |
3–4 | 3 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by RGloucester at 16:07, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
This is a matter of housekeeping, and I hope that the honourable members of the Arbitration Committee can assist me by providing some clarification. Recently, I filed a request for arbitration enforcement relating to the article " Origin of the Romanians". In making preparations to file that request, I came across the strange situation whereby I knew discretionary sanctions applied to the relevant article, but I was not sure which of the two related and existing discretionary regimes was most appropriate to use. I expect that's somewhat confusing, so let me explain a bit further.
There are discretionary sanctions regimes in place for articles related to Eastern Europe, and for the Balkans. Unfortunately, the definitions of both ' Eastern Europe' and 'the Balkans' are ambiguous and potentially overlapping. This produced a strange result whereby the relevant editor had originally been notified of the Eastern Europe regime, but was later notified of the Balkans regime in relation to his edits of the same article. In any case, this ambiguity is really not desirable for discretionary sanctions. The definition of 'Eastern Europe' specifically has actually been a matter of substantial dispute on Wikipedia before. One can easily imagine a situation whereby one could 'wikilawyer' about the validity of a notification of the existence of one of the regimes, in an effort to avoid sanctions. I wonder if the the Arbitration Committee can do one of two things: either clearly define the scope of each regime, or merge the two. This way, administrators enforcing sanctions and editors seeking their enforcement will not have to grapple with the ambiguities inherent in the terms 'Eastern Europe' and 'the Balkans', and will be able to avoid a bureaucratic nightmare. Thank you in advance for your consideration of this matter.
I recommend the committee make a motion of clarification here. The articles on Eastern Europe and Balkans are both unclear to whether Romania is part of the region. Neither of the disputes leading to discretionary sanctions particularly apply to Romania; the Balkans dispute primarily involved Bulgaria, Greece and the former Yugoslavia. The Eastern Europe dispute primarily involved Poland, Russia, and the Baltic States; the more recent crisis in the Ukraine has also fallen under those sanctions.
I'm not certain that Romania falls under any Discretionary Sanctions at this time. An explicit list of countries affected (rather than a region name) may be necessary. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 19:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Looking at our articles about Eastern Europe and the Balkans, there is indeed overlap between them. Taking a reasonably (but not excessively) broad interpretation some or all of the following countries are included (sometimes depending on context):
Country | Eastern Europe | Balkans |
---|---|---|
Albania | Yes | Yes |
Belarus | Yes | No |
Bosnia and Herzegovina | Yes1 | Yes |
Bulgaria | Yes | Yes2 |
Croatia | Yes | Yes3 |
Czechia | Yes4 | No |
East Germany | Yes5 | No |
Estonia | Yes6 | No |
Greece | Yes1, 7 | Yes8 |
Hungary | Yes4 | No |
Kosovo | Yes1 | Yes |
Latvia | Yes6 | No |
Lithuania | Yes6 | No |
Macedonia | Yes1 | Yes |
Moldova | Yes | No9 |
Montenegro | Yes1 | Yes |
Poland | Yes | No |
Romania | Yes | Yes3 |
Russia | Yes10 | No |
Serbia | Yes1 | Yes |
Slovakia | Yes4 | No |
Slovenia | Yes | Yes3 |
Turkey | No | Yes2, 10 |
Ukraine | Yes | No |
Notes:
Based on this, Eastern Europe (when South Eastern Europe is not distinguished separately) is a near complete superset of the Balkans, so merging these into a single authorisation of "Eastern Europe including the Balkans and the Macedonia naming dispute." would resolve all the issues the OP raises. No actual restrictions would be altered, only the case they are logged under would change. Possibly those who are formally aware of only one scope would need to be informed they are now formally aware of the newly combined scope, but not definitely and this would only be a one-time thing. Thryduulf ( talk) 20:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Agree with the views of User:AGK. There is little upside to modifying the existing sanctions, and a possible downside. Even the present request doesn't give a persuasive reason why a change is required. In the recent AE about Origin of the Romanians nobody made the argument that the topic wasn't covered under WP:ARBEE. Even if ARBEE and ARBMAC do overlap, it's hard to see that as a problem.
Many of the existing DS are about nationalism. In the ideal case, we would have some kind of universal sanction that could be applied to nationalist editing anywhere in the world. EdJohnston ( talk) 21:15, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Speaking as somebody who has helped enforcing both sets of sanctions numerous times, I think there's rarely be much of a problem in determining which rule to apply, even if they overlap. For me, the crux of the matter is really not a mechanistic application of what country counts as belonging to what continental region. Those are pretty arbitrary attributions, and to take just one example, you will rarely find Greece described as belonging to "Eastern Europe", even though obviously its geographical longitude is well within the range of other countries that are. What matters is really more the nature of the underlying political struggles motivating the disruption we find on Wikipedia. Speaking broadly, "Eastern Europe" sanctions have mostly been invoked dealing with ethnic/national conflicts that broke up – directly or indirectly – in the wake of WWII, the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, or the collapse of the Soviet Union. The "Balkans" sanctions have been invoked dealing with conflicts that – directly or indirectly – stem from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the mix of nationalities that was left behind. I'd personally be opposed to merging the two sanction rules. It shouldn't really matter in practice, if it wasn't for the practice of some admin colleagues (unnecessary and not really advisable, in my view, but still common) to hand out sanctions whose scope is always automatically identical with the entire set of topics covered by the DS regime. For instance, instead of topic-banning somebody from Serbian-Croatian conflicts, which might be entirely sufficient in an individual case, they always automatically reach for a topic ban from all Balkan topics, because that's what the DS rule applies to. I'd find it regrettable if these colleagues were to take a merger of the two DS rules as indicating that in the future all such sanctions should be handed out straight for "all of Eastern and Southeastern Europe", which would almost certainly be overreaching in most cases. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
(1) Proposed: At Amendment II in Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans.
(2) Proposed:
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(3) Proposed:
At Amendment II in Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans. Remedy 3 in Macedonia is superseded by this amendment.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
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0–1 | 5 |
2–3 | 4 |
4–5 | 3 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Doug Weller at 11:32, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
My clarification request concerns the article for Ilhan Omar, a member of the United States House of Representatives. She's a controversial person in part simply because she is a Muslim and in part because of some comments on Israel. I added the usual ARBPIA template at the top of the page and have told some non-ECP editors about the ruling applying to them if they edit related content in the article. I've been asked at Talk:Ilhan Omar#ARBPIA if 1RR applies to the content relating to the dispute. I've always assumed that it doesn't automatically apply and only applies if the {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement}} is added to the talk page and the edit notice {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli editnotice}} added to the article.
I'd like to confirm that:
1. The plain talk page template without {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement}} means that the only restriction on the article applies to non-ECP editors editing within the area of the dispute. 1RR does not apply and cannot apply to only part of an article.
2. If edits to the article not relating to the dispute suggest that the subject is being targeted because of her positions on the dispute (or her Muslim identity) it's permissible to apply ECP to the article without the other restrictions or simply to apply the AE restrictions template even though the article as a whole doesn't fall within the area of the dispute. It's increasingly my opinion that this should be done. Interestingly the article on her fellow Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez also has a section on the dispute but Talk:Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez show it covered only by American Politics but with a 1RR and enforced WP:BRD ( Template:American politics AE).
Doug Weller if you don't mind, I'd like to clarify the question(s) here a bit, as your original request is actually touching on multiple different issues that could be relevant for whether a page is ARBPIA... and I'd like to make clear the options among which we unsure which matches global (as opposed to local i.e. page-respective) en-wiki policy.
1) The simplest of all, that some of Omar's comments that drew controversy were about Israel. She is an American politician though and the controversy is in America. Does this mean it is (a) not ARBPIA at all, (b) ARBPIA for specifically those comments and the ensuing controversy or (c) ARBPIA in total.
2) Probably the comment Ilhan Omar that made the most controversy (aside from mostly religious Christian right-wingers flipping out about her hijab, which I don't personally think is relevant to ARBPIA) is her view that pro-Israel lobbyists have "hypnotized" people. To many Jews, including many progressive Jews, this is an offensive anti-Semitic canard that is all the worse because Omar herself is hypocritically the victim of religious bigotry, while for others, again including people who are Jewish, it is media (especially conservative media) taking what she said out of context. Without commenting on which side is "right", there are actually two questions here:
3) As it stands currently, Doug Weller's writeup mentions Omar's very visible Muslim faith. Islam is not definitively "Israeli/Palestinian domain", however just like antisemitism there is a lot of interaction, as there is a sense of pan-Islamic solidarity regardless of the reality of this solidarity, on both sides. Furthermore, although this fact may be regrettable, by wearing the hijab and by spearheading the effort to allow head coverings in federal government processes, Omar became an iconized living symbol of religious Muslims in the US (again, personally I find this incredibly problematic on many different grounds but it is hard to deny it has become the case) and has been punished for it time and time again by unabashed Islamophobes on social media elsewhere. At first glance this may not seem relevant, but since Doug brought it up, it is worth mentioning that issues of Muslim immigrant assimilation do play a role in debates about how Muslim Americans can relate to American foreign policy (I am not implying all Muslim Americans are anti-Israel/pro-Palestine/or anything whatever, but one cannot deny that this is relevant). Should this also be a consideration? Personally I think, no, but it has already been brought up and is worth asking because I can see another side here as well
Hope I've made the issues here more, not less clear?-- Calthinus ( talk) 14:11, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
@ AGK: But per PIA General 1RR restriction it applies to "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict" and not to the content. I btw agree with you AGK and think it should apply to the content but then the wording should be changed -- Shrike ( talk) 20:23, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Agree with AGK and Shrike: when ARBPIA notice is place, then it is 1RR for the whole article.
As for changing the rules (so that ARBPIA is only for a part of the article)...Please don't. The usefulness of that does not make up for the added level of complication (The rules are more than complicated enough as it is!) Huldra ( talk) 21:22, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
I'd like to introduce this AE case into evidence. The AE case involved, in part, edit warring in Acid throwing - which is mostly not ARBPIA - however Acid throwing#Israel, West Bank and Gaza Strip is very much ARBPIA related. Such ARBPIA sections are common in longer pages - and applying this on the section would make sense. Ilhan Omar is in the border-zone between reasonably and broadly (as much of the coverage of her, through the years, is focused on antisemitism/Israel/etc.) overall, and specific sections of the page are very much ARBPIA related. Icewhiz ( talk) 07:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
I can't actually tell what everyone is proposing in this discussion. The question is whether to apply ARBPIA only to entire articles or selectively to parts of articles. The former would be a simpler rule, but it can also lead to absurdity. A year or so ago there was a huge edit war on List of state leaders in 2016 (or some other year) over the 3 lines that applied to Palestine. It would ridiculous to apply ARBPIA to the other 250 or so items in that list just because of those 3 lines. I think that what we need is something like this: if an article is largely related to the I-P conflict, it is covered in toto; otherwise the parts of an article related to the I-P conflict are covered. Zero talk 08:22, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
To editor TonyBallioni: Your proposal to remove from ARBPIA articles about debate within other countries will impact articles like American Israel Public Affairs Committee and Christians United for Israel, both of them about American organizations that now carry ARBPIA tags. In my view, removing ARBPIA protection from such articles would immediately open them to edit-warring of the kind that ARBPIA is intended to subdue, involving the same editors who edit-war on other ARBPIA articles. I cannot see this as a step forward. Zero talk 05:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
There's a lot of verbiage up there (says the long-winded guy), but the key thing to me is that unusual restrictions like 1RR should never be held to be applicable at a page without the admin-placed editnotices and other templates that explicitly make them so and which are hard to miss. Drama-frought topics are among the most likely to attract new editors, so there's a serious WP:BITE problem here. If I'd ended up blocked my first week of editing, for violating an obscure and excessive rule I didn't know about and which applied only to a particular page, I probably never would have come back. Consider also that new editors can't tell who's an admin, and which concerns to take seriously (lots of noobs get lots of grousing and templates from lots of people; a DS notice from an admin isn't likely to be interpreted as special by someone who doesn't know the ropes yet, but a big warning every time they edit a particular article is harder to ignore). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:07, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Speaking with my AE-admin hat on, I would not consider Ilhan Omar to be under 1RR or the General Prohibition.
Bans are generally constructed as either "pages related to...." or "pages and edits related to....". In this case, both the ARBPIA 1RR restriction and the General Prohibition are constructed as "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict" - ie. the "and edits" is not there. Therefore, when assessing whether these restrictions are being violated, the question is not "Are the edits related to the conflict?" but "Is the page reasonably construed as being related to the conflict?"
I have always seen a difference between "broadly construed" and "reasonably construed" and my understanding is that the "reasonably construed" language was deliberately chosen to be narrower than "broadly construed." My understanding of this language is that "broadly construed" includes any page that has some connection to the conflict, while "reasonably construed" includes only pages on subjects that are mainly about the conflict (or subjects that are mainly notable because of a connection to the conflict). Ilhan Omar is notable as a member of the United States Congress and has made some controversial remarks about the Arab-Israeli conflict; she is related to the conflict, but her principle notability does not come from the conflict. Therefore, the page is not "reasonably construed to be related" and so is not subject to 1RR and the General Prohibition. However, the page is broadly construed to be related, and so is subject to discretionary sanctions.
Clear as mud? GoldenRing ( talk) 12:47, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
The way things have worked in the ARBPIA area is quite sensible, although that and the wording of the rulings are probably out of kilter, which, I think, is the reason for the current request. The rulings have been applied to ARBPIA-related content in any page, no matter whether the topic can be construed as being in the ARBPIA part of the project or not. In the former case, the rulings have been applied only to the ARBPIA-related content; editors could edit non-related content on those pages freely. As the usage notes that go along with the template for the ARBPIA notice indicate, the notice does not have to be placed on a page in order for the rulings to apply there. In the page which is the cause of the current request, the Ilhan Omar one, that means that under the practice followed in the past at least, ARBPIA rulings would be enforceable on any ARBPIA-related material there without the notice having been placed. The problem that placing the notice has caused is that editors are questioning whether any of the majority, non-related material there is under editing restrictions or not. We possibly have two problems with the current rulings: one that the wording of the rulings may indicate that those rulings apply only on pages where the subject matter falls wholely within the ARBPIA area when in fact the practice has been to apply them to content anywhere; a second whereby we either don't have a second notice which indicates that only ARBPIA-related content on the relevant page or the notice that we do have does that. The practice that has been followed is sensible and I don't think that it should be altered to conform with what the wording of the rulings actually say. Altering the wording of the rulings and the notice would involve a lot of pain which would still not necessarily end up with a sensible form of wording. Given the wording of the notice which we do have, it would be better if it was only placed on pages whose subject matter, broadly constued, fell wholly within the ARBPIA area, those being ones where it would be sensible to apply the ARBPIA restrictions to most of the material. Following current practice, the absence of the notice would not prevent the restrictions being applied to relevant content in other pages. ← ZScarpia 13:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller:: "I hadn't thought that this was even a grey area but to my disappointment I can't find anything to back my assumption." From following AE requests for years, I'm sure that the ARBPIA restrictions were applied to isolated sections of ARBPIA-related material in articles which weren't otherwise wholly within the subject area. ← ZScarpia 12:51, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
@
Doug Weller:: "The problem (and the reason I've been wrong) is that 1RR and the general 500/30 rule are not actually discretionary sanctions. I think they should be part of DS as I see a lot of drive-by editors and IP addresses (and the cynical side of me says some of these are editors logged out) changing content that's only a minor part of an article." I'm having a little bit of difficulty construing the meaning and significance of the rules being part of discretionary sanctions, which makes me wonder whether I've mistaken what the case is about and whether I've been writing at cross purposes with others here.
My view is that 1RR, which was imposed to slow down edit warring, and 500/30, which was imposed to help combat the use of sockpuppetry to evade sanctions, are restrictions applied to to the editing of all ARBPIA-related material. Discretionary sanctions
[125] in the form of, for example, topic bans may be applied by administrators in order to ensure, inter alia, that restrictions such as those are adhered to ("Discretionary sanctions – administrators may impose sanctions on disruptive editors and apply general restrictions on specific pages in the conflict area in accordance with the discretionary sanctions procedure."
[126]). Viewed that way, the rules are restrictions that automatically apply to ARBPIA-related material which discretionary sanctions enforce, not restrictions which can be applied as sanctions at the discretion of administrators.
It looks to me as though, at route, the problem here is the ambiguity in the phrase "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". How may a page be "related" to the conflict? One interpretation is that the a page's subject matter as expressed in the page title itself should have an obvious connection to the IP conflict. Another interpretation is that the whole of the subject matter should have an obvious connection to the IP conflict. Yet another interpretation is that a relationship may be established if just part of the content is connect. The latter is the one which I'm maintaining is the one which is sensible in terms of reducing strife in Wikipedia and also the one which was traditionally followed on the AE and AI noticeboards. Other editors here such as Icewhiz and AGK seem to be supporting that interpretaion.
Taking the third interpretation, there then follows the problem of determining, in the case of pages where only part of the content is related to the conflict, whether the restrictions such as 1RR and 500/30 apply to the whole content or only the conflict-related parts. Unfortunately, WP:ARBPIA can be interpreted as requiring the restrictions to apply to the whole content, though that is neither necessary or sensible as far as the editing of the non-conflict-related material is concerned. A reason that it is not sensible is on display here: in articles such as the one on Ilhan Omar, editors with no interest in the IP conflict will resist the imposition of the ARBPIA restrictions being imposed if those restrictions are applied to the whole page; yet if they're not applied to the parts of those pages whose content is related to the IP conflict, the end result will be the appearance on those pages of the editing problems which the restrictions were designed to cure.
Roger Waters is most significant for his music career in Pink Floyd. Because he is outspoken on Palestinian rights, though, on Wikipedia there is a struggle to insert conflict-related material condemning or defending him which threatens to swamp the whole article.
Ernest Bevin was British Foreign Secretary at the time when the Cold War was developing and also when the various parts of British India gained independence, yet because he was Foreign Secretary in the couple of years surrounding the creation of Israel, there are similar problems on the article devoted to him.
Jeremy Corbyn has had a long political career and is currently the Leader of the Opposition in the UK parliament, het because he is a strong supporter of Palestinian rights, issues surrounding that again affect that article. The United States is vital to Israeli interests: as a member of the UN Security Council it uses its veto frequently to protect Israel; Israel is the main beneficiary of US overseas aid; US military muscle is used to the benefit of Israel against opponents which Israel itself does not have the resource to fight; US financial muscle can be used to fend of the threat posed by the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement; US courts can be used to wage lawfare on Israeli opponents. Therefore there exists in the US a very strong lobby which protects those interests. The knock-on effect for Wikipedia is that a lot of pages have a partial connection to the IP conflict.
Perhaps a way of resolving the current interpretation problem would be to refer to administrators who were involved in the wording of the ARBPIA rulings and asking what their intentions were and also to administrators who have been involved long-term in enforcing them and asking what their interpretation was.
←
ZScarpia 16:58, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller:: Doug, looking at the Ilhan Omar talkpage, if I've read your comments correctly, you're stating that, in ARBPIA, 1RR and 500/30 are remedies, not discretionary sanctions, which sounds equivalent to what I was trying to say above. The article is interesting in that it contains material falling under two Arbitration Requests, i.e. American Politics and ARBPIA. I think the talkpage demonstrates why the ARBPIA remedies need to be applied to the IP-conflict-related material contained in the article. ← ZScarpia 01:29, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
The idea that a a notice and template should be a requirement for the 1RR restriction to apply to an article is a no brainer. I mean, the very fact that lots of people have no idea - including apparently some of the Arbs judging by User:Doug Weller's opening statement (not criticizing him, I had no idea either) - that it doesn't work that way, evidences that the way we have it now is just goofy. And sort of... mean. On all other areas under ACDS no notice means no restrictions. Editors who make edits go by the instructions that are visible to them. Yes, yes, I know that you get informed about the 1RR applying to anything "broadly construed" ... once a year. But seriously, unless you're very active in a particular topic area, who the hell can remember some notice they got EIGHT+ months ago on their talk page??? *Especially* since the rules are so different from how it works everywhere else.
The problem of course is that this whole "we'll make up a rule but keep it secret" approach was done by admins who didn't bother to even think of how it works from a regular editors' perspective. The flawed design is a result of "what will make it easier for me to block people" thinking by cowboy admins, rather than "what will make for a more collaborative editing environment". Come to think of it, most of the whole discretionary sanctions apparatus is set up on the basis of that (witness the lack of success that DS has had in most controversial areas) thinking, this is just the most egregious example of that dysfunctional approach. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 10:36, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The General 1RR prohibition of the Palestine-Israel articles arbitration case ( t) ( ev / t) ( w / t) ( pd / t) is amended to read:
The community is encouraged to place the {{ ARBPIA 1RR editnotice}} on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Enacted - Bradv 🍁 02:20, 14 March 2019 (UTC)