This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 105 | ← | Archive 107 | Archive 108 | Archive 109 | Archive 110 | Archive 111 | → | Archive 115 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Salvidrim! at 19:06, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
In late 2017 I colluded with a friend and fellow WPVG editor, Soetermans, to pass an AfC draft, for which he had declared being paid by MisterWiki, without thoroughly assessing or reviewing the draft itself, and shortly after I myself entered into a paid editing relationship with MisterWiki. For this corruption of the purpose of AfC, I was restricted from approving AfC drafts indefinitely, appealable after 12 months. I only occasionally reviewed AfC Drafts before and will probably continue occasionally, at best, helping with the backlog (if the restriction is lifted). As there were no problems otherwise with any other AfC Draft I've approved (or article I've created myself) I'm not sure what "other work" I could present to support this request, and similarly more months/years are unlikely (IMHO) to change much, I think I can safely say "lesson learned" (moreso thanks to the desysop obviously); the problems weren't so much with my ability to properly review AfC drafts and moreso with the collusion overall. If you'd like examples of small articles I've created in the past year, you can check out Terreur 404, Dark Seal or Hwages. I'm happy to accept any trial period or rate-limit or review log, etc. if the Committee would like to be able to review the quality of my near-future AfC approvals before lifting the restriction entirely. Thanks in advance and apologies for once again taking up valuable Arbtime with this mess. :) Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 19:06, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
As a newbie who has never heard of this user before until just now, my views should not be weighed very heavily in this matter. However, the current topic ban is rather narrow in my opinion. I would possibly recomenned subbing it for a more broad ban on paid editing and a permanent restriction from moving AfCs to the mainspace. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 22:10, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
I see no issue with lifting these restrictions. Salv self-reported the only violations (search AE somewhere for it), and he follows the radical transparency lifestyle, so I find it highly unlikely he's lying here about doing paid-editing again. To SilkTork's point: I'm not sure I'd support a new RfA (also not sure I'd oppose), but I don't really see that as particularly relevant here. The odds of Salv being disruptive in this area if the sanctions are lifted are about zero, in my view, so there doesn't seem to be a reason to keep this particular sanction. TonyBallioni ( talk) 03:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
After reading
TonyBallioni's note above about self-reporting, I got curious. The only AE log of a violation I could find was
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive231#Salvidrim!. Reading through it was amusing (My face has been notified by my palm.
), and after having reviewed that and reading through the case, I believe that this restriction should be lifted. I saw that ArbCom noted
in the case that In contrast with some of the above conduct, Salvidrim! acted with commendable transparency during the case including providing supporting evidence and detail even where it may not have suited their interests to do so.
They appear to have continued to act transparently, and I would
like to believe that they would continue to do so. In short, I support lifting this restriction. --
DannyS712 (
talk) 04:08, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Given Salvidrim!'s comments here, his conduct during the case and afterwards I think the best way to move forwards here is to lift the restriction with the rationale "lesson learned". Thryduulf ( talk) 14:31, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Perhaps ArbCom could make this transactional; accept the request if Salvadrim agrees to reduce the font size in his signature to be less obnoxious, otherwise leave it in place. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 14:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
p.s. I'm not kidding.
So, back on topic, I actually do think we can safely remove this restriction. I'm not sure how I will feel if/when RFA#2 comes along, but I'm at least comfortable that Salvadrim is not going to come within 100 yards of anything improper at AFC. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 15:28, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I second Floquenbeam above. Salvidrim, if you want to be taken seriously a garish giant signature like that is really not helping. ‑ Iridescent 15:14, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Support lifting the restriction. Salvidrim! has been nothing if not honest, transparent, and self-reflective throughout this entire ordeal, which a year and a bit in retrospect I continue to believe was an overconfident (?) lapse in judgement. This restriction was weakly supported by the Committee in the first place, and only on a third draft of proposals for article creation restrictions. I see no preventive reason to keep this in place.
Regarding the comments about Ben's signature, there's a discussion on Floq's talk page about it if anyone really wants to chime in. It's pretty far off-topic for this thread. (comment modified by request) Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 16:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
I also support lifting t-ban on Salvidrim! He's a trustworthy person. samee converse 17:41, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Remedy 2.1 of the Conduct of Mister Wiki editors arbitration case ( t) ( ev / t) ( w / t) ( pd / t) (Salvidrim's prohibition from reviewing articles for creation drafts) is rescinded. He may apply for use of the AfC helper script as usual at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Participants.
Enacted - -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 20:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by EllenCT at 21:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Do the discretionary sanctions imposed on "genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed" apply to discussion of the decline in insect populations in general, or to anything in this edit in particular? I ask because Kingofaces43's revert, replacing a blog post and unreviewed advocacy organization sources opposed to a peer reviewed literature review, was accompanied by a warning on my talk page that they do. I am not the first editor to question whether overly-broadly construing discretionary sanctions is being used by Kingofaces43 to gain leverage in content disputes. EllenCT ( talk) 21:34, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, I had forgotten the full scope of my topic ban after three years and
have struck the talk page comments which violated it. (Clearly I would not have highlighted the violation here if I was trying to circumvent it.) I still hope to appeal the 2016 restrictions.
EllenCT (
talk) 03:44, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
EllenCT's topic ban is indefinitely prohibited from discussing the potential motivations of Wikipedia editors, as well as the actions of corporations or persons related to genetically modified organisms, agricultural biotechnology and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed.
[1].
The aspersions about me trying to gain leverage in content disputes comment due to me actually following the DS in this subject seems to be in violation of that ban and isn't covered by WP:BANEX even here. I had to deal with another editor doing this at ARC about a week ago, so I would appreciate if arbs or clerks would enforce both the ban and DS on comments here this time.
That said, EllenCT already made
this comment at a talk page claiming the
Entomological Society of America, a major insect science organization, was a pesticide lobbyist organization
. EllenCT already views the subject as covered by pesticides and made that comment also violating their ban about sources too. That should be a clear indication the behavior hasn't changed. The content stuff they bring up had already been agreed upon by other editors, not just me, so it that's more targeted pursuit.
For some background, EllenCT was one of the main editors that caused us to have to craft the GMO/pesticide WP:ASPERSIONS principle here in order to prevent patent battleground behavior in the topic where disruptive editors frequently engaged in shill gambits about pesticides to attack editors (more on that at their AE topic ban). That ban was mostly because they were often harassing and hounding me across pages, so I'm very concerned they want to appeal their topic ban (proposed in lieu of a one-way interaction ban) in order to edit exactly where I'm active again. Besides being mostly removed from GMOs and pesticides with that ban, they've had sanctions elsehwere. We've had recent flareups of those kinds of aspersions problems with other editors and lack of enforcement (something for another ARCA someday), but we definitely don't need to reintroduce another editor with this behavior.
To focus on the actual question, insecticides/pesticides are listed as one of the main causes of the declines in reviews [2] [3] [4] [5], and the DS were made broad in both GMOs and pesticides to prevent gaming them. One can debate edge issues in other topics where a only a certain paragraph or section may truly fall under the DS, but this is an event with pesticides listed as a prominent direct cause. One could make an argument that broadly construed isn't even needed to cover it, but broadly construed removes any reasonable question. As already seen in past insect decline related requests, we're already having problems with edit warring and pesticide-based aspersions with related WP:GAMING, so it's definitely become a topic where both the DS/1RR and enforcement are needed to prevent disruption. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 16:47, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
This seems a reasonable request. King's been slapping DS tags on editors who tried to refer to studies showing bug decline since 2017, which even he admitted was "borderline". One of King's AE requests was closed as "out of scope" in January, with admins + a veteran editor (Collect) unanimously disagreeing with King. That said, a game changing high level review came out in February, and from that point WP:Due does seem to demand mention of pesticides in any article length treatment of bug decline. On the other hand, the Insect article is already over long, so only warrants a few lines on decline. The review itself lists the 4 main causes of the decline as habitat destruction, pollution, climate change & invasive species. (with pesticides later discussed as a sub cause under pollution, albeit a major one.). So there's no way the Insect article necessarily has to mention pesticides.
Due to current disruption, with King edit warring against multiple editors and trying to wikilawyer against SlimVirgin herself, it might be useful if we could have a ruling that clarifies whether the DS applies to the Insect article. There seems to be reasonable arguments either way, it would just be nice to have it settled so there is one less reason for contention. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 07:00, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
As an admin trying to pick through all this, I agree that it would be useful for the committee to clarify whether any discussion of insect biodiversity / population decline falls within the scope of the GMO DS. An alternative way of asking the same question is whether this edit falls within the scope of the GMO DS?
Kingofaces43 has repeatedly insisted that it does (eg here), because (according to them) insect decline and pesticides are inextricably linked and some of the sources used in that diff also discuss pesticides' role in insect decline (I haven't checked whether this last part is true, but I assume it is). I'm still skeptical; IMO this is like saying any discussion of American manufacturing would necessarily fall under APDS. However, I'm prepared to be wrong on this. GoldenRing ( talk) 11:25, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by SheriffIsInTown at 18:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
I was issued a topic ban from India-Pakistan conflict pages almost ten months ago on 15 May 2018. I am requesting this ban to be lifted now as a lot of time has passed since this ban and I have contributed in other topic areas since then. I have made a determination to change my behavior to avoid conflict when editing India-Pakistan conflict pages by engaging in discussions more and avoid the language or behavior which can make the editing more toxic which was the primary concern when the ban was issued that the participation of many editors in this topic area was making the environment toxic and the conflicts were spilling out to other areas/noticeboards.
Personally, This ban has affected me deeply as it was the first ever ban or block issued to me and I blame only myself for getting this stain on my editing. This ban has also affected my editing deeply as well, as it being a broadly construed, i could not improve those articles as well which were not conflict related, for example I was looking into splitting Nawaz Sharif into multiple articles but I could not do so as the foreign policy section contained content regarding relations with India. Similarly, I started First 100 days of Imran Khan's prime ministership and Prime Ministership of Imran Khan after Imran Khan assumed power but I could not improve those articles especially when it came to content regarding relations with India and a lot has happened regarding these relations since Khan took helms of affair in Islamabad.
Thus citing these hardships and time which has passed since the ban was issued, I will like to request the committee to repeal this ban. I promise to be more careful when editing this topic area as iterated by me above. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: No, as there was an amendment request in June 2018 already and I was under the impression that once there was already an appeal at ARCA, then we can only file subsequent appeals at ARCA and not any other forum as we lose the right to appeal at lower forums such as AE or AN. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:57, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: Thank you for the clarification, I will like to continue with my appeal if it is not too big a hassle for the committee since there is no requirement that we must appeal on other forums before appealing to the committee. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
This is in reply to the statement by 1990'sguy. I accept that I forgot about my first topic ban at the time I was writing this appeal. It was not a purposeful omission. That was a one month ban and by the time I was done reviewing all the relative material and policies before I could appeal the ban, the ban was already over. So, when I said that this ban has affected me deeply, I meant that.
I did not think it was necessary to mention the Judaism topic ban and interaction ban while appealing this ban. I do not think it was in the context of this appeal as these bans were already repealed.
The first topic ban violation was a misunderstanding as not just me but some other editors had this misunderstanding as well. The block which was issued was reverted after a couple of hours due to a successful appeal. The second topic ban violation was accidental in which I fixed a bare reference, the matter was brought in front of the committee and the committee opined on it with a lot of members concurring with the way the matter was handled. These violations and the AN report which they mentioned are 5 to 9 months old.
The statement by 1990'sguy seems to be giving a perception that I have been only editing using the reFill tool and that I should be editing 6 months to an year more the other topic areas without using the reFill tool. If that perception is correct then I will like to clarify that during my topic ban I have created hundreds of articles and I have also done extensive editing on the topic of Pakistani general election in 2018 in addition to fixing bare references. In fact, my editing is so diverse that I was recognized as one of the top ~ 250 medical contributors for year 2018.
They also stated that I pretend that there are no problems with my editing but rather that impression is incorrect as well, as I clearly stated in my appeal that I only blame myself for this ban.
Finally, I would like to state that I have done many wrongs and I was reprimanded for those wrongs. I have also promised in my statement above that I am determined to change my editing approach to the effect that it involves more discussion and less conflict. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 01:01, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I will like to answer some of the points raised by Uanfala. First, another editor tried to convey the message that I have been only editing using the reFill tool when I countered that with replying that this impression is not correct and that I have created hundreds of articles since this ban was enacted. Now, Uanfala is making a point that we accept that you created the articles but those were all stub so I would like to counter with the argument that most of the politicians become notable the day they get elected as their election makes them notable. I create the articles the day they get elected or in near future after that. The only content for which the reliable sources are present at the time are the sources which discuss their election so only a stub can be created at that time but that is not all at all, all the articles which I have created were not stubs and Tahira Safdar (first women chief justice of any court in Pakistan), First 100 days of Imran Khan's prime ministership, and Humaira Bachal (an internationally renowned Pakistani philanthropist and female education activist) are just a few of those articles which were not stubs and that is simply because there was more content available which would suffice a full fledge i.e a non-stub article so here they are wrong in giving an impression that I only created stub articles. I did whatever I could do best while remaining in my interest area. I kept the candle burning even in hardships of multiple topic bans and an interaction ban. I kept contributing to and improving the encyclopedia wherever I could. I would also like to state that contributions and improvements no matter how minor they look on the surface should not be discredited but I have been seeing over and over that my attempts on fixing the bare URLs has been a source of criticism on the basis of my use of reFill tool to do that. My answer to those critics is that you can take a few minutes to fix a reference or you can use the tool and fix it in few seconds but nonetheless it's a contribution which do require someone's personal time and I have been putting a lot of it into Wikipedia whether I was using reFill or creating articles on politicians and judges or adding the 2018 election results on Pakistani constituency pages. Now, I recognize that India-Pakistan requires more scrutiny, thoroughness, and research and I think I have five years of editing experience behind me to put my efforts into that. This topic ban or the behavior which lead to this ban does not define my editing. I have edited that topic area in the past and it was not all bad if it would have been all bad then I would not have gone banless in that topic area for over four years. Yes, there were problems, yes, thing got out of control and I said or did things at times which were not worthy of my editing personality and I regret that. Those episodes of less than perfect behavior earned me the wrath of community and I did not remain unscathed. But again, that does not define me as an editor and I have done good in that topic area previously and I am willing to and offering to bring that goodness back into the topic area while changing approach which lead me to this ban. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:30, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Ivanvector and BU Rob13: I have too much going on in real life but I will like to address the concerns of BU Rob13 and AGK in a detailed statement. I need some more time for that unless if the committee wants to completely turn over the ban in the meantime which I would welcome! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13 and AGK: Please allow me to address your concerns. The real life event started on February 14, it reached its peak on February 27 and it has fairly died down by now so as Ivanvector and SilkTork rightly pointed out that the long term dispute between both countries is not going to go away in near future. And, it is possible that when I come back six months later for another appeal, there might be another standoff flaring up by then so there is never going to be the right or wrong time if we just go by the external political situation between these two countries. Furthermore, lifting of this restriction completely is going to allow me to edit the topic at my own leisure because it is not necessary that if you lift the restriction now then I will just start editing this topic right away but if you just allow me to edit 2-3 articles for one month then it is quite possible that I might not be able to edit those articles in that one month period. My appeal to get the TB lifted was in part to just get the clear slate so I do not have to worry about violating this ban anymore and not just to barge into the topic area and start editing as soon as the ban is lifted. With TB in place, I have to worry about the violation with every edit I make.
Not to contradict myself but just as a food for thought, let me throw another point of view in the mix here. For example, here is a thread which was recently opened at AN complaining about new editors fighting over the content on recent standoff. My point of view is that I can become a voice of sanity, in this case coming fresh off of the TB, I am going to be more careful but new editors did not taste the taste of the ban yet so they do not know how bitter it is 😉, that is why they will keep fighting but the editor who has already tasted the bitter taste of the ban would be more careful, so If allowed to edit, I can be a source of peace and sanity in that topic area. Furthermore, if you do not allow me to edit at a time when I can really contribute since there is something to contribute then what's the point of allowing it when there is nothing much left to contribute because articles about historical events in that topic area are already in a state of consensus so there is nothing much to change there.
Another food for though is that if you do not want to lift the ban in its entirety and your concern is the recent standoff then why not restrict it to the recent standoff i.e reduce the topic ban to the articles discussing 2019 India-Pakistan standoff.
But, if despite all the explanations, assurances and points discussed above, you still must restrict me to 2-3 articles then I will suggest First 100 days of Imran Khan's prime ministership (not much to contribute there regarding the conflict between two countries but sparing that article would at least allow me to not "test the edges of the ban" when I work on the foreign policy section), Prime Ministership of Imran Khan, Nawaz Sharif (I want to split the article in three and will touching the section related to relations with India), Prime Ministership of Nawaz Sharif (new article will be created where edges of the ban will be tested when foreign policy will be discussed although summarily), and Foreign Policy of Nawaz Sharif (new article which will discuss the relations with India).
The Judaism topic ban and relative interaction ban are over four months old and I think four months are good enough to test an editor. During those four months I have contributed constructively in different topic areas on English Wikipedia. I request you to consider those four months of constructive editing as a measurement of good behavior (without disruptive editing) which should help you to rest your fears of me wreaking havoc in ARBIPA topic area thus helping you to make the decision of lifting this ban in its entirety. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:45, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: I hope the committee is not waiting for anything from me at this point. They can go ahead and make their decision. I will be more than happy to accept whatever it is. Thank you all in advance for your consideration! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
No opinion on this request, but for those (like me) who vaguely remember SIIT's request for a topic ban removal a week or so ago, it was for a different subject, and is found here: [13]. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 18:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
I am the banning administrator. I have not kept a check on the contributions of SheriffIsInTown and, for various reasons, don't have the capacity to go digging. But, absent any evidence of poor behaviour in other areas, I support lifting this restriction. I think the recent lifting of an unrelated restriction by the community speaks well to this appeal also. GoldenRing ( talk) 10:12, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
I would recommend declining this appeal for the following reasons:
SheriffIsInTown's claim that "This ban has affected me deeply as it was the first ever ban or block issued to me
" is false, as SIIT was earlier topic banned from "
Muhammad" in 2016.
[14]
Similarly, he has failed to mention his multiple topic ban violations and topic ban from Judaism and one-way interaction ban.
It was barely 8 days after the decline of a previous WP:ARCA appeal, [15] that SIIT was subject to a report on WP:AN for his disruptive editing: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive300#Vandalism.
The first topic ban violation occurred when SheriffIsInTown was misrepresenting sock puppetry by one of the sanctioned user in this area who was getting site banned for his socking. [16] Once SIIT saw he is not getting his way, then he went ahead to derail a sensible site-ban proposal against that editor by disrupting WP:AN and seeking sanction against others. [17] SIIT was blocked and later unblocked for this topic ban violation.
The second topic ban violation was obvious since SheriffIsInTown edited Siachen Glacier. [18] Soon this issue was brought to WP:ARCA for clarification. [19] Per SIIT's statement on that ARCA, we can see that SIIT assumed bad-faith towards other editor instead of being thankful that the editor didn't reported SIIT, and SIIT asked for leeway towards topic banned editors like himself instead of promising to be more careful.
I am also surprised that SIIT confirms right above that he still doesn't understand the very basic procedure that he could appeal on WP:AN or WP:AE before appealing here.
In light of these incidents, I find it very unfair of SIIT to pretend that no problems with his editing existed before or after this topic ban.
The very fact that SIIT has continued to engage in same WP:BATTLE and WP:DE that originally resulted in sanctions and caused more problems, it seems that encyclopedia won't benefit from removing topic ban from this editor. I would instead recommend SheriffIsInTown to edit (which is more than just using the refill tool) for another 6 months -- 1 year without violating a topic ban or being subjected to more sanctions before appealing this topic ban again. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 13:27, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Note that of the incidents described above by 1990'sguy, the most recent occurred five months ago. Though 1990'sguy misrepresents that it was an "obvious" violation, see the full discussion where there was not a consensus that the specific edit nor the page in its entirety were off-limits under the restriction. Furthermore most participants agreed that SIIT's edit to that page (which I had taken flak for restoring) was constructive. The arbs mostly declined to comment as SIIT had already self-reverted. It should also be noted that the dispute between SIIT and the editor who advised them of the violation was already resolved by the time I stuck my ignorant nose into it and escalated it here.
Everyone here I'm sure knows that ARBIPA is a very contentious topic where no editor can expect to operate free of thorough scrutiny of their edits. If this handful of minor incidents is all that SIIT's opponents can come up with, then Sheriff has done a very good job of generally abiding by the restrictions. In addition, SheriffIsInTown's response to various unrelated minor incidents over the past year have shown a willingness to accept criticism and to improve as an editor. I'm confident there will be no further problems and I support unconditionally lifting the restriction. Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 14:33, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I really didn't want to comment here as I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I don't feel like enough of substance has been said so far. On the one hand, it's great to see that after the massive ANI thread that resulted in the topic ban from Judaism, SIIT has managed to stay out of trouble whilst continuing to edit at a good pace. He's created a large number of stubs about politicians, both from the US and Pakistan, and he certainly deserves praise for this work. But on the other hand, there is huge gap between creating articles consisting entirely in content like "So-and-so is a politician from such-and-such party who won that many votes in the election of year N", and navigating the enormous body of literature and the cacophony of contradictory sources about one of the world's most intractable conflicts.
I don't think there's anything in his recent experience that is comparable to what he might face in the India–Pakistan area. His very strong views on these matters, and the severity of the past problems (some distant echoes of which can be seen in two more recently raised issues [20] [21], minor though they are), make it seem to me that starting to edit there again might be risky. And I really don't see a way to tell whether SIIT has indeed fundamentally changed his ways, or he simply recognises that being contrite is the only way he can get rid of an editing restriction which he sees as a stain on his honour.
And one minor point: being recognised as one of the top medical contributors is based on an automatic process that counts edits to medicine-related articles; I should be corrected if I'm wrong, but all, or almost all, medicine-related edits that SIIT has made consist in expanding bare urls using the semiatomated tool reFill().
In case the topic ban stays in place, I think it will be perfectly alright to add an exception covering the Imran Khan articles if SIIT is interested in working on them. – Uanfala (talk) 04:06, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
There has been an interesting variety of responses to last year's mass topic ban. Some editors, from both "sides", have drastically reduced their participation on Wikipedia; others have focused almost exclusively on anti-vandalism patrol and AfD; still others have continued to contribute content, including in contentious areas. SIIT is one of those; he has also engaged in considerable self-reflection. If the appeal is granted, he will also obviously be on a tight leash, because there's a very large number of people watching him. Uanfala makes a good point, but I think it's a little too much to ask that an editor dive into a different but equally contentious area before an appeal; work in Pakistani politics is good enough. Vanamonde ( Talk) 01:09, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
I concur with Vanamonde and will urge the committee to grant the appeal. He knows that his editorial activities will be immensely scrutinized and shall he return to his previous ways; the ban would be re-instated in a jiffy. ∯WBG converse 09:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
I concur with Vanamonde above. One of the purposes of a topic ban is to allow an editor to demonstrate that they aren't narrowly focused on one area and that they do have the broader interests of Wikipedia at heart. Sheriff has more than adequately shown that and we should grant this appeal. It would be wrong, given their history of aggressive editing, to say I'm not concerned, but I'm sure that they know they're on a tight leash, so let's see if something positive can come out of a topic ban. -- regentspark ( comment) 01:23, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
SheriffIsInTown's topic ban from pages related to conflict between India and Pakistan is lifted, subject to a probationary period lasting six months from the date this motion is enacted. During this period, any uninvolved administrator may re-impose the topic ban as an arbitration enforcement action, subject to appeal only to the Arbitration Committee. If the probationary period elapses without incident, the topic ban is to be considered permanently lifted.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by GoldenRing at 15:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
In the course of a request at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, I deleted
User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles as an arbitration enforcement action. My reason for doing so is that
WP:UP states that "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, perceived flaws, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed. The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner.
In my view, this page is obviously the sort of "collation of diffs and criticisms related to problems" that the policy forbids. Dlthewave has repeatedly stated (eg
diff) that the purpose of the page is as background to an opinion piece in The Signpost; since I have repeatedly asked and they have given no other explanation, I have taken this as an admission that the material is not intended for dispute resolution. My justification for doing the deletion as an arbitration enforcement action is the "other reasonable measures that the enforcing administrator believes are necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project
" provision of
WP:AC/DS#sanctions.user. I'm aware that deletion is unusual as an enforcement action, but didn't expect it to be as controversial as it has proved.
Dlthewave appealed this at AE and in the course of the appeal, Bishonen advised them to start a request at WP:DRV, which they did. Bishonen undeleted the page so that those participating in the DRV request could see the content. I have objected to the undeletion as a unilateral overturning of an enforcement action but Bishonen has declined to self-revert this. I have no interest in wheel-warring over it.
A number of editors at DRV have objected to the deletion, for two main reasons: Firstly, that the content doesn't violate policy, and secondly that deletion is not a valid enforcement action (ie is not authorised under discretionary sanctions). Additionally, I and a couple of other editors have pointed out that DRV can't review enforcement actions, but a number of editors have objected this, too. These objections include some very experienced editors who I respect and I'm not so sure of myself as I was 24 hours ago. So I would like the committee please to answer these questions:
I would like to be very clear that I am asking these questions for clarification and am not looking for action against anyone; in particular, I am not requesting any action against Dlthewave for starting the DRV (they were, after all, advised to do so) nor against Bishoen for giving that advice or for undeleting the page (Bishonen is an admin I hold in high regard and while we disagree on this point of DS procedures, any action against her would be a great loss to the project; I would much rather concede the point and let the undeletion stand than see action here).
I've abstained from comment here because I don't feel that I have any strong insight or opinion regarding the intricacies of Arbcom procedures, and I'm not going to push for an outcome that affects the entire community just so that I can keep my userpage. However, I feel that the Committee would be remiss if they did not answer the first of Goldenring's questions, "Is deletion of a page an enforcement action that is authorised under discretionary sanctions?"
–
dlthewave
☎ 18:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
@ SilkTork: You have perhaps forgotten part of the process, then. Unless pages at DRV are temporarily undeleted, only admins will be able to read them, i. e. only admins will be able to discuss them in a meaningful way. It's not supposed to work like that. I followed these instructions for how to do it. Bishonen | talk 18:27, 25 February 2019 (UTC).
Is deletion of a page an enforcement action that is authorised under discretionary sanctions? Based on the argument by Ivanvector at DRV I would say no. It is not. Furthermore I think the argument that it constituted WP:POLEMIC in the first place is flawed. Simonm223 ( talk) 16:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
This response is directed to GoldenRing's bullet point #1 only, as the subsequent bullets assume a view with which I disagree.
As I stated at DRV, my view is that page deletion is not authorized by discretionary sanctions, certainly not explicitly, and neither in spirit. While the standard provisions authorize administrators to act in arbitration enforcement through the use of editing sanctions and page restrictions, and we grant significant latitude to administrators to create restrictions within the bounds of these categories and to block users who violate those restrictions in the name of arbitration enforcement, these powers do not extend to editorial and/or political control, nor wholesale removal of content. Furthermore, nothing in the gun control case appears to specifically enact these powers. And generally, it is common practice that the Arbitration Committee does not weigh in on matters of encyclopedia or userspace content, and as such it is an improper assumption that the Committee would wish to empower admins with unilateral deletion powers. But noting the disagreement at DRV, I would also like this to be explicitly clarified.
As for Bishonen's action and DRV itself in this incident: if Arbcom has explicitly declared that deleting a page is a sanction available for arbitration enforcement, then I would agree that AE would be the correct venue to review an Arbitration-enforcement deletion. However, the community's venue for deletions out-of-process is DRV, thus DRV is a logical venue for this incident. It is standard and widely-accepted practice to undelete content while its deletion is under review, and Bishonen's restoration ought to be viewed in that light unless and until someone can point to already-established Arbitration procedure in which the Committee has explicitly authorized userpage deletion as a discretionary sanction, and if and only if that process is already established, then owing to the present disagreement Bishonen should be given an acting in good faith pass on this one, or a "to satisfy the pedants" admonishment at the most severe.
Stating for the record that I believe that everyone carrying a mop has acted in good faith with respect to this incident. I also hold both GoldenRing and Bishonen in very high regard, and I appreciate GoldenRing seeking clarification on this point. Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 16:35, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Ivanvector. Such a deletion is not within the scope of discretionary sanctions. Perhaps an Arbitrator with a longer memory than I have may find such a procedure but I'd be surprised. Certainly it was not authorised by us during the four years I was on the committee. I think everyone has acted in good faith with this but I believe that GoldenRing was wrong and that the page should not have been deleted. I've looked at the page and agree with those who say that the content does not violate policy. I'll also note that no editors have been named although obviously they can be identified via the links. I'll add that even if it hasn't been used it is information that has the potential to be useful. Doug Weller talk 17:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I can think of situations whereby deletion would be in the purview of an AE action (for example, if a topic-banned editor was violating their TBan on a userspace page) but I agree with the two editors above that I can't see that this falls into this category. It is probably something that ArbCom could do with clarifying for future reference. Black Kite (talk) 17:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
If no harm would arise from having this page discussed at MfD, then it should be discussed at MfD, rather than deleted by any one person's unilateral action. Obviously both admin acted in good faith in a situation that is unclear and possibly unprecedented; any suggestion of sanctions would be over the top. Leviv ich 18:01, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
But nobody reading Special:Permalink/881981663 carefully would conclude that information on that page is "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, perceived flaws, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately ... (my emphasis)
related to others". All of the information therein is related to articles, and there is no Arbitration Enforcement available to prevent editors from gathering quotes or diffs from articles or from article talk. We prevent users from gathering negative information about others, for reasons of BLP, but that is not licence to extend the prevention to collating article text. 'Shonen's restoration of the deleted page to allow scrutiny does not breach WP:BLP or WP:COPYVIO (the only absolute prohibitions on restoration), and meets the test of COMMONSENSE.-- RexxS ( talk) 19:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
"All enforcement actions have what you describe as "the usual immunity to reversion", whether they are valid or not."I refute that. To misquote Jimbo, the presumption of validity is not a suicide pact. If a claimed AE action is obviously invalid , as yours was, then a reversion of that action in order to comply with a conflicting policy or guideline is perfectly reasonable. Even you recognise that 'Shonen's actions were reasonable.
Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others, otherwise no quotes would ever be allowed. The sophistry is in trying to stretch those words to justify deleting a page that quotes hundreds of different editors, and cannot sensibly be construed to contain negative information about those editors. Any such connotation is purely in the mind of the observer, and you've made the mistake of construing talk page comments critical of an article or of statements in that article as "negative information" about the editors who made the comments.
All queries or appeals regarding arbitration enforcement, including those
feltalleged to be out of process or againstexistingpolicy, must first follow arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before being reversedor discussedat another venue.
The basis for deletion comes from WP:UP. That same page says "In general other users' user pages are managed by that user. Except for blatant or serious matters, it is preferable to try contacting the user before deletion (see above). However, unambiguous copyright violations, attack pages, promotional text, and privacy or
BLP violations can be
speedy deleted using a suitable
template, such as {{
db-attack}}, {{
db-copyvio}} or {{
db-spamuser}}; other pages likely to require deletion (or where remedial action is not taken) may be submitted to
deletion discussion.
Justifying a deletion by citing policy and then not following the policy for how to go about deletion seems problematic at best.
The reason for deletion is not a speedy criteria. And standard DS do not allow for deletion of a page as near as I can tell. I only see one other deletion in WP:AEL and that was justified on A7/BLP grounds. As S Marshall has indicated, AE enforcing admins very much deserve our support and I'm personally grateful to those that take on such a demanding and stressful job. But here there is overreach outside of the scope of either a single admin or AE. There was no rush and no reason WP:MfD couldn't have been used (where I suspect it would have been kept).
In any case, I agree with Roy (below)--this is about content not behavior. The discussion belongs at DRV. edited Hobit ( talk) 04:45, 26 February 2019 (UTC) Hobit ( talk) 01:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't often get involved in ArbCom business, so forgive me if I'm not up on the nuances of policy and procedure here. But, reading what User:SmokeyJoe said above: ArbCom is supposed to stay out of content decisions, I find myself very much in agreement. The converse is certainly true; DRV deals with content, and stays out of behavioral issues. It's common in DRV debates for somebody to write, We're only here to talk about the page deletion; if you want to pursue a user's conduct, there's other fora for that. This seems like a natural and useful division of responsibilities, and why it seems odd to be talking about ArbCom getting involved in reviewing a page deletion.
I don't think it was appropriate to delete the user page. I also think it was perfectly reasonable (and SOP at DRV) to temp-undelete the page for review. I also want to echo what others have said; while there's clearly a disagreement about what the proper course of action should have been, it's also clear that everybody has acted in good faith here. There should be no thought of sanctions for anybody. -- RoySmith (talk) 03:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't know if I have standing here, but can I request that this get resolved sometime soon? Surely, six weeks is long enough to make a decision. I, as an admin, are left not knowing if temp-undeleting a page at WP:DRV could lead to my being desysoped. What we've got now is arbcom saying, "We reserve the right to desysop you if you break the rules, but we won't tell you what the rules are". That's not useful. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
While I disagree with GoldenRing on the merits of the deletion, I agree with their submission of 16:22, 26 February 2019 in that the Committee should clarify whether deletions (other than those already allowed by ordinary deletion policy) are in principle allowed as discretionary sanctions, and whether any review of deletions labeled as discretionary sanctions must take place by way of the procedures for the appeal of AE actions. In my reading of applicable policy, the answer to both questions is clearly yes, but the opinions to the contrary that have been voiced at DRV show that this question needs clarification. Sandstein 16:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I've performed I'd guess around a quarter of the temporary undeletions at DRV over the past few years. Contra what's been stated both above and below, it's neither an absolute right (even barring copyvio and blp - there's been a number of cases where no admin's been willing to tempundelete in the cases of egregious spam, for example; I can dig out some example DRVs if it'd be helpful) nor, in particular, automatic: in practice we almost always wait until an uninvolved user requests it. I don't recall ever seeing the author of a page requesting temp undeletion for the purposes of DRV before; even had this deletion not been labeled an AE action, I'd certainly have declined, though I might have offered to email it. — Cryptic 20:57, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Dialing my wonk-o-meter up to 11, I'm not seeing anywhere in WP:Protection policy that authorizes arbcom to authorize admins to protect pages, either. (It does mention arbcom with respect to unprotections, and very indirectly for extended-confirmed protections.) So the idea that arbcom can't authorize deletions just because it's not explicitly stated in WP:Deletion policy or WP:Criteria for speedy deletion doesn't get a whole lot of sympathy from me. That said, if the committee ends up deciding this deletion was correct, I'll go through the hassle at WT:CSD to try to get this properly documented, probably as a variant of WP:G9. — Cryptic 22:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
@ RoySmith: re Special:Diff/891855139: Agree that resolution would be nice. The rest is a nonissue: you should be looking at the content and logs of pages you restore anyway, even temporarily. If it contains blatant attacks or copyvios, or it's labeled as a copyvio or an "arbitration enforcement" variant ("AE" or "discretionary sanctions" or "DS" or "AC/DS"), you don't just restore it on your own initiative even if you think the labeling's incorrect, you consult with the deleting admin. If the deletion isn't labeled as arbitration enforcement, then it's not a valid enforcement action, per WP:AC/DS#sanctions.log. — Cryptic 16:13, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
If we're going to allow that ACDS is legitimate grounds for out-of-process deletion, then we're probably approaching the point where we've abandoned the pretense that ArbCom does not make policy. GMG talk 01:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
If the standard operating procedure of undeletion for DRV can be called a violation of an enforcement action authorised under discretionary sanctions, I think we've reached sort of an end point grammatically and in terms of Arb Power. Sorry, but I think this is silly and pushing the point of authoritay too far. Drmies ( talk) 15:19, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I came upon this when I went to close the DRV. The committee's discussion thus far, in my opinion, has yet to fully grapple with the core concern that I see from those critical of permitting DS deletion, and one that I share: permitting out of process deletion under the authority of enforcement of DS is taking DS enforcement away from being a tool to enable administrators to deal with disruptive conduct, and instead making admins arbiters of disfavored content. The dichotomy is real, as several committee members appear to feel that under appropriate circumstances an administrator acting under DS enforcement authority could delete a page (or I suppose an article) and be subject to review only at ARCA. The tools ordinarily used - topic bans, blocks, and page protections - are designed to reduce disruption by modifying user conduct. Deletion, uniquely, hides the information from ordinary readers, and that is why the comprehensive deletion process governs when there is consensus that such removal is acceptable. The committee should recognize that just as the AN community has special expertise in dealing with user conduct issues, Afd/Mfd/DRV and their ilk are where editors have particular insight these content issues. It would be concerning if the community's expertise were to be deprecated in favor of an enforcement mechanism made for user conduct issues. My personal preference here would be to see the committee take deletion off the table of DS enforcement options. Functionally equivalent would be to say the deletion process must be followed - a speedy deletion criterion cited, with review at DRV. Less satisfactory would be to limit such reviews to ARCA. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 04:52, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
I happened to see mention of this discussion and am alarmed by the way it is going. Reading this user page, it is clearly a complaint about the bias of articles, which is to say, it is directly applicable to Wikipedia editing. It is not addressed at any editor (indeed, has timidly omitted usernames). It does, of course, favor a certain point of view, but editors should be allowed to favor a point of view they agree with when it is being excluded from articles. I say this even though I am pro-gun rights and suspect many of the individual edits were correct.
The consequence of (literally) arbitrarily excluding such content is to propagate the idea that Wikipedia is biased and to encourage editors to share information like this off-site. The consequence of that is that Wikipedia loses any ability to suppress deliberate cyberbullying, while the editors lured to partisan sanctuaries are more likely to fall under the influence of actual lobbyist money. In every way, the quality of discourse is degraded by deletions like this. And unless the arbitration decision specifically prohibited making any new pages about a topic, such deletions cannot possibly be valid arbitration enforcement. Wnt ( talk) 20:47, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I just closed the DRV as overturn as the clear consensus of the discussion. Once you have completed your august deliberations could someone let me know if I can enact the clear consensus of the discussion or whether super Mario has won. Incidentally my autocorrect hates arbcom it keeps changing it to random or wrecked. Spartaz Humbug! 19:03, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
The arbitration process exists to impose binding solutions to Wikipedia conduct disputes (i.e., not content disputes requiring mediation) that neither community discussion nor administrators have successfully resolved. The arbitration process is not a vehicle for creating new policy by fiat. The Committee's decisions may interpret existing policy and guidelines, recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct, or create procedures through which policy and guidelines may be enforced. The Committee does not rule on content, but may propose means by which community resolution of a content dispute can be facilitated. (My bolding). Fish+ Karate 11:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
In my view "removal" in Arb/DS policy is meant in the sense it is used at WP:TALK or WP:BLP, that is an action that removes an edit or comment, it is not meant in the sense it is used in deletion policy or oversight policy. As we see from this case, it is not prudent to have the expansive construction of "removal" in Arb/DS to include deletion and oversight, which both have extensive articulated process, separate and apart. -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 10:43, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Wherever we draw the boundaries of arbitration enforcement, there will be fringe cases where admins may disagree on whether AE applies. ArbCom needs to decide whether it retains (or wants to retain) exclusive jurisdiction over the policing of AE boundaries. Today we're talking about page deletion, next time we may talk about the applicability of AE over protection in certain circumstances or some other admin action.
If ArbCom decides it retains exclusive jurisdiction over the boundaries, which I disagree with, then it needs to be prepared that any action that is declared by any admin as an act of arbitration enforcement will automatically escalate to ArbCom if someone disagrees with it. This seems to go against ArbCom's mantra that lower venues of dispute resolution ought to be tried first if possible (as is DRV in this case) before escalating to ArbCom in general.
As for the case at hand, I agree with RexxS and Ivanvector here. We ought to be narrow and cautious in the interpretation of AE provisions. While the ArbCom is allowed to make an (clarifying) amendment that DS covers page deletion, I don't think "removal" in the current wording includes page deletion, because as many other have pointed out, page deletion redacts the contents of the page history from public view. Deryck C. 14:40, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Maybe, just maybe my comment will help motivate a close. Countless hours are spent/wasted trying to decipher ambiguous PAGs. The obvious solution would be to clarify the ones that create the problems. As editors are so often advised, it is not about who is right or wrong, it's about the disruption, and admins & ArbCom need to apply this to their own actions. It appears ArbCom invests a measurable amount of time and energy looking for reasons to not take a case...thus, the creation of AE...which sometimes leads to more confusion under the guise of saving time and energy. What we're doing in essence is substituting input from several admins for discretionary action and passing it over to a single admin, and if they execute the action improperly, off with their heads. Fix the ambiguities. I can't see that either admin is at fault here; therefore, trying to afix blame is not resolving the problem. Atsme Talk 📧 14:28, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Option C in the survey below seems to be the only valid option. Because WP:AC/DS is simply delegation of ArbCom authority to admins, and ArbCom does not make content decisions, general decisions to delete content as such are outside the remit of AC/DS, absent some other deletion rationale. However, if admins are already empowered to delete something under other policy, then doing so, within those policy limits, and as part of AC/DS action would be legitimate. For example, AC/DS is most specifically about blocks and topic bans, but admins can do other things, like impose a "move-ban" on someone mis-using manual page moves, and require them to use RM process. I don't think anyone would argue that if someone were disruptively moving pages in an AC/DS topic area that DS could not involve a move ban, despite not being mentioned at the AC/DS page. The difference here is that the deleting admin is making what amounts to an WP:IDONTLIKEIT content decision about the material in the page (I have no opinion on the allegation that this was politically motivated). That's not a rationale for DS action, and not a rationale for deletion, so no combination of DS + DP/CSD results in "I can delete this because I feel like it". In this particular case, the motivation seems genuinely WP:POLEMIC-enforcement-motivated (though I don't think I agree with the assessment that the material necessarily qualified under POLEMIC). We cannot predict the future with certainty, but can make educated guesses. Since AC/DS is applied to controversial topics, and disruption correlates strongly with controversy, it seems virtually guaranteed that unrestrained deletion under AC/DS will result in suppression by admins of material they disagree with, by translating "is opposite my or the majority view in a dispute" into "is disruptive". Content by itself is not disruptive (outside some narrowly defined classes like vandalism with butthole pictures, or OUTING with personally identifiable information); editorial actions are.
On the follow-up questions: DRV is and should remain an obvious venue for review of any deletion. It's not "WP:Deletion review except for some people". WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY and WP:GAMING are important. We don't want a decision under which any admin who seeks to avoid DRV and general community scrutiny for questionable deletions can simply claim some vague AC/DS rationale and thereby close all avenues of appeal other than AE (which is a star chamber that leans toward presumption of guilt of anyone accused by an AE admin, and is generally hostile to editors who challenge an AE admin's decision), or ArbCom (which is even scarier to most editors, though actually fairer). In both processes, there is a strong bias in favor of the admin who acted, both in the minds of those reviewing the action and usually in the admin party's knowledge of the excessively legalistic procedures surrounding ArbCom and its AE board. ArbCom is not bound by precedent, so the fact that it has historically treated all AC/DS actions as appealable only to AE or ArbCom is irrelevant. Explicitly allowing deletion as a DS action is dangerous, and removing DRV as an examination venue would be a disenfranchisement of the community without any real discussion or notice. ArbCom deciding that its clan of AE "enforcers" how has deletion impunity and near-immunity (option B in the survey, or even option C with DRV excluded) would be a poor and controversial move. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:09, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
I think that the approach proposed by AGK – to make it clear that deletions are not possible as an AE action – is the best way forward. I recognise the concern that SilkTork raises, but the alternative proposal is not the way to address that, in my view. As I understand it, SilkTork wants it to be clear that an admin may make a deletion under their ordinary authority under the deletion policy while also addressing an AE situation. However, by adding the extra mention of the deletion policy implies that the use of ordinary authority in relation to deletions is an exception. It admits the interpretation that the existing practice of an indefinite block with only the first year as an AE action is not permitted.
I suggest that AGK's approach / addition be preferred, and a relevant addition to the DS procedures state that:
The advantage of this approach, in my view, is that it covers not simply this deletion issue but any and all questions that could arise where ordinary admin authority is used. It makes the treatment uniform and avoids any claim that the deletions are treated differently. The second point would also cover any other area that might be questioned in the future. I don't know how much of this is already covered in the DS policy, but I think it is worth codifying. I looked at the policy quickly but didn't see any clear statement that makes this clear, and I don't know exactly where it would be added or how it would be worded. EdChem ( talk) 00:44, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable with the notion that a AE admin should have less authority than a non AE admin, and so create a situation where someone creates a page in direct violation of an ArbCom sanction, yet an AE admin could only delete such a page outside of ArbCom protection, and so there is uncertainty (again) over where the matter should be discussed.
The purpose of discretionary sanctions is to enable normal editing and consensus-building procedures to function even in situations where there is substantial disruption; their purpose is not to replace such procedures. The idea that an WP:AE deletion is not subject to WP:DRV therefore seems patiently absurd, especially given that DRV is, itself, historically an extremely high bar to pass (ie. the nature of an appeal means that in the absence of a consensus the default is that the article would stay deleted.) More generally, the problem stems from situations where WP:AE matters intrude on content decisions; based on that danger, I would amend WP:AC/DS#Modifications by administrators to state that by default, any content-based changes resulting from an WP:AE action (including deletions) can be reversed provided there is a clear consensus via an established venue like WP:DRV, without requiring that that be a consensus of administrators; and that in cases where there is a disagreement, such consensus is presumed to be sufficient to establish that something is a content issue. While WP:AE isn't supposed to apply to content in the first place, it is inevitable that there will occasionally be overlap, and it's important to establish that in cases where that occurs, an administrator cannot override or ignore consensus on content issues simply by invoking WP:AE (and that the default, in cases of confusion, is to go with a broad consensus when it exists.) -- Aquillion ( talk) 04:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Note that earlier today I closed the AE appeal [23] and consequently restored the page in question. At the time, I was not aware of the existence of this clarification request (I have probably seen it on my watchlist some time ago, decided that it has no relation to my activities, and forgotten about it). I believe that the closure of AE is completely orthogonal to the request, since I believe nobody says the page may not be restored as a result of an AE closure. However, if anybody feels that the existence of this clarification request mandates that the AE request must sty open, feel free to unclose it.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 10:44, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
@ SilkTork: - I was hoping you (as the tweaking arb) could clarify how this is going to avoid looping round to the same problem - if it goes to AE, which would probably rule to adopt the broader interpretation of its own authority, then we seem set to end right back up again here as the "losing" side appeals the decision. The "appropriate forum" is only a symptomatic consideration since it would never be considered for DRV if arbitrary sanctions didn't/doesn't include deleting pages. Nosebagbear ( talk) 20:29, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
If the final motion passes (as it appears it will), you may also want to clarify
WP:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Standard provision: appeals and modifications. Will an undeletion request be considered to be the same as a request for modification of page restrictions and so may be made by any editor? Otherwise, "(a)ppeals may be made only by the editor under sanction", and for a page deletion, the deletion could affect many editors (an
ESSAY for example). Perhaps explicitly change it to something like "Requests to undelete pages or for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor."
But does that really belong in a section titled "Appeals by sanctioned editors", when that's not necessarily who will be appealing?
Mojoworker (
talk) 19:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Most editors are loathe to read anything related to guns on Wikipedia, let alone comment. This issue is much broader than any disputed area. If this request were entitled for example "Authorize page deletion as a discretionary sanction" or some such, the feedback our arbiters would be receiving from our community would be very different. 2A0C:E300:0:0:0:0:0:23 ( talk) 20:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
To see if we need to take this discussion further, it may be helpful to take a quick survey:
(1) Proposed:
The Discretionary sanctions Procedure § Sanctions is amended at sanctions.caveats to read as follows:
For the avoidance of doubt, enforcing administrators are not authorised to issue site bans; to require the removal of user rights that cannot be granted by an administrator or to restrict their usage; to delete pages; nor to enforce discretionary sanctions beyond their reasonable scope.
where the text underlined is to be inserted.
(1) Proposed:
The Discretionary sanctions Procedure § Sanctions is amended at sanctions.caveats to read as follows:
For the avoidance of doubt, enforcing administrators are not authorised to issue site bans; to require the removal of user rights that cannot be granted by an administrator or to restrict their usage; to delete pages outside of the deletion policy; nor to enforce discretionary sanctions beyond their reasonable scope.
where the text underlined is to be inserted.
The following text is added to the "Important notes" section of the standard provision on appeals and modifications, replacing the current text of the fourth note:
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 105 | ← | Archive 107 | Archive 108 | Archive 109 | Archive 110 | Archive 111 | → | Archive 115 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Salvidrim! at 19:06, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
In late 2017 I colluded with a friend and fellow WPVG editor, Soetermans, to pass an AfC draft, for which he had declared being paid by MisterWiki, without thoroughly assessing or reviewing the draft itself, and shortly after I myself entered into a paid editing relationship with MisterWiki. For this corruption of the purpose of AfC, I was restricted from approving AfC drafts indefinitely, appealable after 12 months. I only occasionally reviewed AfC Drafts before and will probably continue occasionally, at best, helping with the backlog (if the restriction is lifted). As there were no problems otherwise with any other AfC Draft I've approved (or article I've created myself) I'm not sure what "other work" I could present to support this request, and similarly more months/years are unlikely (IMHO) to change much, I think I can safely say "lesson learned" (moreso thanks to the desysop obviously); the problems weren't so much with my ability to properly review AfC drafts and moreso with the collusion overall. If you'd like examples of small articles I've created in the past year, you can check out Terreur 404, Dark Seal or Hwages. I'm happy to accept any trial period or rate-limit or review log, etc. if the Committee would like to be able to review the quality of my near-future AfC approvals before lifting the restriction entirely. Thanks in advance and apologies for once again taking up valuable Arbtime with this mess. :) Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 19:06, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
As a newbie who has never heard of this user before until just now, my views should not be weighed very heavily in this matter. However, the current topic ban is rather narrow in my opinion. I would possibly recomenned subbing it for a more broad ban on paid editing and a permanent restriction from moving AfCs to the mainspace. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 22:10, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
I see no issue with lifting these restrictions. Salv self-reported the only violations (search AE somewhere for it), and he follows the radical transparency lifestyle, so I find it highly unlikely he's lying here about doing paid-editing again. To SilkTork's point: I'm not sure I'd support a new RfA (also not sure I'd oppose), but I don't really see that as particularly relevant here. The odds of Salv being disruptive in this area if the sanctions are lifted are about zero, in my view, so there doesn't seem to be a reason to keep this particular sanction. TonyBallioni ( talk) 03:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
After reading
TonyBallioni's note above about self-reporting, I got curious. The only AE log of a violation I could find was
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive231#Salvidrim!. Reading through it was amusing (My face has been notified by my palm.
), and after having reviewed that and reading through the case, I believe that this restriction should be lifted. I saw that ArbCom noted
in the case that In contrast with some of the above conduct, Salvidrim! acted with commendable transparency during the case including providing supporting evidence and detail even where it may not have suited their interests to do so.
They appear to have continued to act transparently, and I would
like to believe that they would continue to do so. In short, I support lifting this restriction. --
DannyS712 (
talk) 04:08, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Given Salvidrim!'s comments here, his conduct during the case and afterwards I think the best way to move forwards here is to lift the restriction with the rationale "lesson learned". Thryduulf ( talk) 14:31, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Perhaps ArbCom could make this transactional; accept the request if Salvadrim agrees to reduce the font size in his signature to be less obnoxious, otherwise leave it in place. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 14:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
p.s. I'm not kidding.
So, back on topic, I actually do think we can safely remove this restriction. I'm not sure how I will feel if/when RFA#2 comes along, but I'm at least comfortable that Salvadrim is not going to come within 100 yards of anything improper at AFC. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 15:28, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I second Floquenbeam above. Salvidrim, if you want to be taken seriously a garish giant signature like that is really not helping. ‑ Iridescent 15:14, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Support lifting the restriction. Salvidrim! has been nothing if not honest, transparent, and self-reflective throughout this entire ordeal, which a year and a bit in retrospect I continue to believe was an overconfident (?) lapse in judgement. This restriction was weakly supported by the Committee in the first place, and only on a third draft of proposals for article creation restrictions. I see no preventive reason to keep this in place.
Regarding the comments about Ben's signature, there's a discussion on Floq's talk page about it if anyone really wants to chime in. It's pretty far off-topic for this thread. (comment modified by request) Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 16:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
I also support lifting t-ban on Salvidrim! He's a trustworthy person. samee converse 17:41, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Remedy 2.1 of the Conduct of Mister Wiki editors arbitration case ( t) ( ev / t) ( w / t) ( pd / t) (Salvidrim's prohibition from reviewing articles for creation drafts) is rescinded. He may apply for use of the AfC helper script as usual at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Participants.
Enacted - -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 20:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by EllenCT at 21:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Do the discretionary sanctions imposed on "genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed" apply to discussion of the decline in insect populations in general, or to anything in this edit in particular? I ask because Kingofaces43's revert, replacing a blog post and unreviewed advocacy organization sources opposed to a peer reviewed literature review, was accompanied by a warning on my talk page that they do. I am not the first editor to question whether overly-broadly construing discretionary sanctions is being used by Kingofaces43 to gain leverage in content disputes. EllenCT ( talk) 21:34, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Honestly, I had forgotten the full scope of my topic ban after three years and
have struck the talk page comments which violated it. (Clearly I would not have highlighted the violation here if I was trying to circumvent it.) I still hope to appeal the 2016 restrictions.
EllenCT (
talk) 03:44, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
EllenCT's topic ban is indefinitely prohibited from discussing the potential motivations of Wikipedia editors, as well as the actions of corporations or persons related to genetically modified organisms, agricultural biotechnology and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed.
[1].
The aspersions about me trying to gain leverage in content disputes comment due to me actually following the DS in this subject seems to be in violation of that ban and isn't covered by WP:BANEX even here. I had to deal with another editor doing this at ARC about a week ago, so I would appreciate if arbs or clerks would enforce both the ban and DS on comments here this time.
That said, EllenCT already made
this comment at a talk page claiming the
Entomological Society of America, a major insect science organization, was a pesticide lobbyist organization
. EllenCT already views the subject as covered by pesticides and made that comment also violating their ban about sources too. That should be a clear indication the behavior hasn't changed. The content stuff they bring up had already been agreed upon by other editors, not just me, so it that's more targeted pursuit.
For some background, EllenCT was one of the main editors that caused us to have to craft the GMO/pesticide WP:ASPERSIONS principle here in order to prevent patent battleground behavior in the topic where disruptive editors frequently engaged in shill gambits about pesticides to attack editors (more on that at their AE topic ban). That ban was mostly because they were often harassing and hounding me across pages, so I'm very concerned they want to appeal their topic ban (proposed in lieu of a one-way interaction ban) in order to edit exactly where I'm active again. Besides being mostly removed from GMOs and pesticides with that ban, they've had sanctions elsehwere. We've had recent flareups of those kinds of aspersions problems with other editors and lack of enforcement (something for another ARCA someday), but we definitely don't need to reintroduce another editor with this behavior.
To focus on the actual question, insecticides/pesticides are listed as one of the main causes of the declines in reviews [2] [3] [4] [5], and the DS were made broad in both GMOs and pesticides to prevent gaming them. One can debate edge issues in other topics where a only a certain paragraph or section may truly fall under the DS, but this is an event with pesticides listed as a prominent direct cause. One could make an argument that broadly construed isn't even needed to cover it, but broadly construed removes any reasonable question. As already seen in past insect decline related requests, we're already having problems with edit warring and pesticide-based aspersions with related WP:GAMING, so it's definitely become a topic where both the DS/1RR and enforcement are needed to prevent disruption. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 16:47, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
This seems a reasonable request. King's been slapping DS tags on editors who tried to refer to studies showing bug decline since 2017, which even he admitted was "borderline". One of King's AE requests was closed as "out of scope" in January, with admins + a veteran editor (Collect) unanimously disagreeing with King. That said, a game changing high level review came out in February, and from that point WP:Due does seem to demand mention of pesticides in any article length treatment of bug decline. On the other hand, the Insect article is already over long, so only warrants a few lines on decline. The review itself lists the 4 main causes of the decline as habitat destruction, pollution, climate change & invasive species. (with pesticides later discussed as a sub cause under pollution, albeit a major one.). So there's no way the Insect article necessarily has to mention pesticides.
Due to current disruption, with King edit warring against multiple editors and trying to wikilawyer against SlimVirgin herself, it might be useful if we could have a ruling that clarifies whether the DS applies to the Insect article. There seems to be reasonable arguments either way, it would just be nice to have it settled so there is one less reason for contention. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 07:00, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
As an admin trying to pick through all this, I agree that it would be useful for the committee to clarify whether any discussion of insect biodiversity / population decline falls within the scope of the GMO DS. An alternative way of asking the same question is whether this edit falls within the scope of the GMO DS?
Kingofaces43 has repeatedly insisted that it does (eg here), because (according to them) insect decline and pesticides are inextricably linked and some of the sources used in that diff also discuss pesticides' role in insect decline (I haven't checked whether this last part is true, but I assume it is). I'm still skeptical; IMO this is like saying any discussion of American manufacturing would necessarily fall under APDS. However, I'm prepared to be wrong on this. GoldenRing ( talk) 11:25, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by SheriffIsInTown at 18:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
I was issued a topic ban from India-Pakistan conflict pages almost ten months ago on 15 May 2018. I am requesting this ban to be lifted now as a lot of time has passed since this ban and I have contributed in other topic areas since then. I have made a determination to change my behavior to avoid conflict when editing India-Pakistan conflict pages by engaging in discussions more and avoid the language or behavior which can make the editing more toxic which was the primary concern when the ban was issued that the participation of many editors in this topic area was making the environment toxic and the conflicts were spilling out to other areas/noticeboards.
Personally, This ban has affected me deeply as it was the first ever ban or block issued to me and I blame only myself for getting this stain on my editing. This ban has also affected my editing deeply as well, as it being a broadly construed, i could not improve those articles as well which were not conflict related, for example I was looking into splitting Nawaz Sharif into multiple articles but I could not do so as the foreign policy section contained content regarding relations with India. Similarly, I started First 100 days of Imran Khan's prime ministership and Prime Ministership of Imran Khan after Imran Khan assumed power but I could not improve those articles especially when it came to content regarding relations with India and a lot has happened regarding these relations since Khan took helms of affair in Islamabad.
Thus citing these hardships and time which has passed since the ban was issued, I will like to request the committee to repeal this ban. I promise to be more careful when editing this topic area as iterated by me above. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: No, as there was an amendment request in June 2018 already and I was under the impression that once there was already an appeal at ARCA, then we can only file subsequent appeals at ARCA and not any other forum as we lose the right to appeal at lower forums such as AE or AN. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:57, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: Thank you for the clarification, I will like to continue with my appeal if it is not too big a hassle for the committee since there is no requirement that we must appeal on other forums before appealing to the committee. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
This is in reply to the statement by 1990'sguy. I accept that I forgot about my first topic ban at the time I was writing this appeal. It was not a purposeful omission. That was a one month ban and by the time I was done reviewing all the relative material and policies before I could appeal the ban, the ban was already over. So, when I said that this ban has affected me deeply, I meant that.
I did not think it was necessary to mention the Judaism topic ban and interaction ban while appealing this ban. I do not think it was in the context of this appeal as these bans were already repealed.
The first topic ban violation was a misunderstanding as not just me but some other editors had this misunderstanding as well. The block which was issued was reverted after a couple of hours due to a successful appeal. The second topic ban violation was accidental in which I fixed a bare reference, the matter was brought in front of the committee and the committee opined on it with a lot of members concurring with the way the matter was handled. These violations and the AN report which they mentioned are 5 to 9 months old.
The statement by 1990'sguy seems to be giving a perception that I have been only editing using the reFill tool and that I should be editing 6 months to an year more the other topic areas without using the reFill tool. If that perception is correct then I will like to clarify that during my topic ban I have created hundreds of articles and I have also done extensive editing on the topic of Pakistani general election in 2018 in addition to fixing bare references. In fact, my editing is so diverse that I was recognized as one of the top ~ 250 medical contributors for year 2018.
They also stated that I pretend that there are no problems with my editing but rather that impression is incorrect as well, as I clearly stated in my appeal that I only blame myself for this ban.
Finally, I would like to state that I have done many wrongs and I was reprimanded for those wrongs. I have also promised in my statement above that I am determined to change my editing approach to the effect that it involves more discussion and less conflict. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 01:01, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I will like to answer some of the points raised by Uanfala. First, another editor tried to convey the message that I have been only editing using the reFill tool when I countered that with replying that this impression is not correct and that I have created hundreds of articles since this ban was enacted. Now, Uanfala is making a point that we accept that you created the articles but those were all stub so I would like to counter with the argument that most of the politicians become notable the day they get elected as their election makes them notable. I create the articles the day they get elected or in near future after that. The only content for which the reliable sources are present at the time are the sources which discuss their election so only a stub can be created at that time but that is not all at all, all the articles which I have created were not stubs and Tahira Safdar (first women chief justice of any court in Pakistan), First 100 days of Imran Khan's prime ministership, and Humaira Bachal (an internationally renowned Pakistani philanthropist and female education activist) are just a few of those articles which were not stubs and that is simply because there was more content available which would suffice a full fledge i.e a non-stub article so here they are wrong in giving an impression that I only created stub articles. I did whatever I could do best while remaining in my interest area. I kept the candle burning even in hardships of multiple topic bans and an interaction ban. I kept contributing to and improving the encyclopedia wherever I could. I would also like to state that contributions and improvements no matter how minor they look on the surface should not be discredited but I have been seeing over and over that my attempts on fixing the bare URLs has been a source of criticism on the basis of my use of reFill tool to do that. My answer to those critics is that you can take a few minutes to fix a reference or you can use the tool and fix it in few seconds but nonetheless it's a contribution which do require someone's personal time and I have been putting a lot of it into Wikipedia whether I was using reFill or creating articles on politicians and judges or adding the 2018 election results on Pakistani constituency pages. Now, I recognize that India-Pakistan requires more scrutiny, thoroughness, and research and I think I have five years of editing experience behind me to put my efforts into that. This topic ban or the behavior which lead to this ban does not define my editing. I have edited that topic area in the past and it was not all bad if it would have been all bad then I would not have gone banless in that topic area for over four years. Yes, there were problems, yes, thing got out of control and I said or did things at times which were not worthy of my editing personality and I regret that. Those episodes of less than perfect behavior earned me the wrath of community and I did not remain unscathed. But again, that does not define me as an editor and I have done good in that topic area previously and I am willing to and offering to bring that goodness back into the topic area while changing approach which lead me to this ban. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:30, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Ivanvector and BU Rob13: I have too much going on in real life but I will like to address the concerns of BU Rob13 and AGK in a detailed statement. I need some more time for that unless if the committee wants to completely turn over the ban in the meantime which I would welcome! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13 and AGK: Please allow me to address your concerns. The real life event started on February 14, it reached its peak on February 27 and it has fairly died down by now so as Ivanvector and SilkTork rightly pointed out that the long term dispute between both countries is not going to go away in near future. And, it is possible that when I come back six months later for another appeal, there might be another standoff flaring up by then so there is never going to be the right or wrong time if we just go by the external political situation between these two countries. Furthermore, lifting of this restriction completely is going to allow me to edit the topic at my own leisure because it is not necessary that if you lift the restriction now then I will just start editing this topic right away but if you just allow me to edit 2-3 articles for one month then it is quite possible that I might not be able to edit those articles in that one month period. My appeal to get the TB lifted was in part to just get the clear slate so I do not have to worry about violating this ban anymore and not just to barge into the topic area and start editing as soon as the ban is lifted. With TB in place, I have to worry about the violation with every edit I make.
Not to contradict myself but just as a food for thought, let me throw another point of view in the mix here. For example, here is a thread which was recently opened at AN complaining about new editors fighting over the content on recent standoff. My point of view is that I can become a voice of sanity, in this case coming fresh off of the TB, I am going to be more careful but new editors did not taste the taste of the ban yet so they do not know how bitter it is 😉, that is why they will keep fighting but the editor who has already tasted the bitter taste of the ban would be more careful, so If allowed to edit, I can be a source of peace and sanity in that topic area. Furthermore, if you do not allow me to edit at a time when I can really contribute since there is something to contribute then what's the point of allowing it when there is nothing much left to contribute because articles about historical events in that topic area are already in a state of consensus so there is nothing much to change there.
Another food for though is that if you do not want to lift the ban in its entirety and your concern is the recent standoff then why not restrict it to the recent standoff i.e reduce the topic ban to the articles discussing 2019 India-Pakistan standoff.
But, if despite all the explanations, assurances and points discussed above, you still must restrict me to 2-3 articles then I will suggest First 100 days of Imran Khan's prime ministership (not much to contribute there regarding the conflict between two countries but sparing that article would at least allow me to not "test the edges of the ban" when I work on the foreign policy section), Prime Ministership of Imran Khan, Nawaz Sharif (I want to split the article in three and will touching the section related to relations with India), Prime Ministership of Nawaz Sharif (new article will be created where edges of the ban will be tested when foreign policy will be discussed although summarily), and Foreign Policy of Nawaz Sharif (new article which will discuss the relations with India).
The Judaism topic ban and relative interaction ban are over four months old and I think four months are good enough to test an editor. During those four months I have contributed constructively in different topic areas on English Wikipedia. I request you to consider those four months of constructive editing as a measurement of good behavior (without disruptive editing) which should help you to rest your fears of me wreaking havoc in ARBIPA topic area thus helping you to make the decision of lifting this ban in its entirety. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:45, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
@ BU Rob13: I hope the committee is not waiting for anything from me at this point. They can go ahead and make their decision. I will be more than happy to accept whatever it is. Thank you all in advance for your consideration! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
No opinion on this request, but for those (like me) who vaguely remember SIIT's request for a topic ban removal a week or so ago, it was for a different subject, and is found here: [13]. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 18:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
I am the banning administrator. I have not kept a check on the contributions of SheriffIsInTown and, for various reasons, don't have the capacity to go digging. But, absent any evidence of poor behaviour in other areas, I support lifting this restriction. I think the recent lifting of an unrelated restriction by the community speaks well to this appeal also. GoldenRing ( talk) 10:12, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
I would recommend declining this appeal for the following reasons:
SheriffIsInTown's claim that "This ban has affected me deeply as it was the first ever ban or block issued to me
" is false, as SIIT was earlier topic banned from "
Muhammad" in 2016.
[14]
Similarly, he has failed to mention his multiple topic ban violations and topic ban from Judaism and one-way interaction ban.
It was barely 8 days after the decline of a previous WP:ARCA appeal, [15] that SIIT was subject to a report on WP:AN for his disruptive editing: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive300#Vandalism.
The first topic ban violation occurred when SheriffIsInTown was misrepresenting sock puppetry by one of the sanctioned user in this area who was getting site banned for his socking. [16] Once SIIT saw he is not getting his way, then he went ahead to derail a sensible site-ban proposal against that editor by disrupting WP:AN and seeking sanction against others. [17] SIIT was blocked and later unblocked for this topic ban violation.
The second topic ban violation was obvious since SheriffIsInTown edited Siachen Glacier. [18] Soon this issue was brought to WP:ARCA for clarification. [19] Per SIIT's statement on that ARCA, we can see that SIIT assumed bad-faith towards other editor instead of being thankful that the editor didn't reported SIIT, and SIIT asked for leeway towards topic banned editors like himself instead of promising to be more careful.
I am also surprised that SIIT confirms right above that he still doesn't understand the very basic procedure that he could appeal on WP:AN or WP:AE before appealing here.
In light of these incidents, I find it very unfair of SIIT to pretend that no problems with his editing existed before or after this topic ban.
The very fact that SIIT has continued to engage in same WP:BATTLE and WP:DE that originally resulted in sanctions and caused more problems, it seems that encyclopedia won't benefit from removing topic ban from this editor. I would instead recommend SheriffIsInTown to edit (which is more than just using the refill tool) for another 6 months -- 1 year without violating a topic ban or being subjected to more sanctions before appealing this topic ban again. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 13:27, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Note that of the incidents described above by 1990'sguy, the most recent occurred five months ago. Though 1990'sguy misrepresents that it was an "obvious" violation, see the full discussion where there was not a consensus that the specific edit nor the page in its entirety were off-limits under the restriction. Furthermore most participants agreed that SIIT's edit to that page (which I had taken flak for restoring) was constructive. The arbs mostly declined to comment as SIIT had already self-reverted. It should also be noted that the dispute between SIIT and the editor who advised them of the violation was already resolved by the time I stuck my ignorant nose into it and escalated it here.
Everyone here I'm sure knows that ARBIPA is a very contentious topic where no editor can expect to operate free of thorough scrutiny of their edits. If this handful of minor incidents is all that SIIT's opponents can come up with, then Sheriff has done a very good job of generally abiding by the restrictions. In addition, SheriffIsInTown's response to various unrelated minor incidents over the past year have shown a willingness to accept criticism and to improve as an editor. I'm confident there will be no further problems and I support unconditionally lifting the restriction. Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 14:33, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I really didn't want to comment here as I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I don't feel like enough of substance has been said so far. On the one hand, it's great to see that after the massive ANI thread that resulted in the topic ban from Judaism, SIIT has managed to stay out of trouble whilst continuing to edit at a good pace. He's created a large number of stubs about politicians, both from the US and Pakistan, and he certainly deserves praise for this work. But on the other hand, there is huge gap between creating articles consisting entirely in content like "So-and-so is a politician from such-and-such party who won that many votes in the election of year N", and navigating the enormous body of literature and the cacophony of contradictory sources about one of the world's most intractable conflicts.
I don't think there's anything in his recent experience that is comparable to what he might face in the India–Pakistan area. His very strong views on these matters, and the severity of the past problems (some distant echoes of which can be seen in two more recently raised issues [20] [21], minor though they are), make it seem to me that starting to edit there again might be risky. And I really don't see a way to tell whether SIIT has indeed fundamentally changed his ways, or he simply recognises that being contrite is the only way he can get rid of an editing restriction which he sees as a stain on his honour.
And one minor point: being recognised as one of the top medical contributors is based on an automatic process that counts edits to medicine-related articles; I should be corrected if I'm wrong, but all, or almost all, medicine-related edits that SIIT has made consist in expanding bare urls using the semiatomated tool reFill().
In case the topic ban stays in place, I think it will be perfectly alright to add an exception covering the Imran Khan articles if SIIT is interested in working on them. – Uanfala (talk) 04:06, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
There has been an interesting variety of responses to last year's mass topic ban. Some editors, from both "sides", have drastically reduced their participation on Wikipedia; others have focused almost exclusively on anti-vandalism patrol and AfD; still others have continued to contribute content, including in contentious areas. SIIT is one of those; he has also engaged in considerable self-reflection. If the appeal is granted, he will also obviously be on a tight leash, because there's a very large number of people watching him. Uanfala makes a good point, but I think it's a little too much to ask that an editor dive into a different but equally contentious area before an appeal; work in Pakistani politics is good enough. Vanamonde ( Talk) 01:09, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
I concur with Vanamonde and will urge the committee to grant the appeal. He knows that his editorial activities will be immensely scrutinized and shall he return to his previous ways; the ban would be re-instated in a jiffy. ∯WBG converse 09:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
I concur with Vanamonde above. One of the purposes of a topic ban is to allow an editor to demonstrate that they aren't narrowly focused on one area and that they do have the broader interests of Wikipedia at heart. Sheriff has more than adequately shown that and we should grant this appeal. It would be wrong, given their history of aggressive editing, to say I'm not concerned, but I'm sure that they know they're on a tight leash, so let's see if something positive can come out of a topic ban. -- regentspark ( comment) 01:23, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
SheriffIsInTown's topic ban from pages related to conflict between India and Pakistan is lifted, subject to a probationary period lasting six months from the date this motion is enacted. During this period, any uninvolved administrator may re-impose the topic ban as an arbitration enforcement action, subject to appeal only to the Arbitration Committee. If the probationary period elapses without incident, the topic ban is to be considered permanently lifted.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by GoldenRing at 15:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
In the course of a request at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, I deleted
User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles as an arbitration enforcement action. My reason for doing so is that
WP:UP states that "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, perceived flaws, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed. The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner.
In my view, this page is obviously the sort of "collation of diffs and criticisms related to problems" that the policy forbids. Dlthewave has repeatedly stated (eg
diff) that the purpose of the page is as background to an opinion piece in The Signpost; since I have repeatedly asked and they have given no other explanation, I have taken this as an admission that the material is not intended for dispute resolution. My justification for doing the deletion as an arbitration enforcement action is the "other reasonable measures that the enforcing administrator believes are necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project
" provision of
WP:AC/DS#sanctions.user. I'm aware that deletion is unusual as an enforcement action, but didn't expect it to be as controversial as it has proved.
Dlthewave appealed this at AE and in the course of the appeal, Bishonen advised them to start a request at WP:DRV, which they did. Bishonen undeleted the page so that those participating in the DRV request could see the content. I have objected to the undeletion as a unilateral overturning of an enforcement action but Bishonen has declined to self-revert this. I have no interest in wheel-warring over it.
A number of editors at DRV have objected to the deletion, for two main reasons: Firstly, that the content doesn't violate policy, and secondly that deletion is not a valid enforcement action (ie is not authorised under discretionary sanctions). Additionally, I and a couple of other editors have pointed out that DRV can't review enforcement actions, but a number of editors have objected this, too. These objections include some very experienced editors who I respect and I'm not so sure of myself as I was 24 hours ago. So I would like the committee please to answer these questions:
I would like to be very clear that I am asking these questions for clarification and am not looking for action against anyone; in particular, I am not requesting any action against Dlthewave for starting the DRV (they were, after all, advised to do so) nor against Bishoen for giving that advice or for undeleting the page (Bishonen is an admin I hold in high regard and while we disagree on this point of DS procedures, any action against her would be a great loss to the project; I would much rather concede the point and let the undeletion stand than see action here).
I've abstained from comment here because I don't feel that I have any strong insight or opinion regarding the intricacies of Arbcom procedures, and I'm not going to push for an outcome that affects the entire community just so that I can keep my userpage. However, I feel that the Committee would be remiss if they did not answer the first of Goldenring's questions, "Is deletion of a page an enforcement action that is authorised under discretionary sanctions?"
–
dlthewave
☎ 18:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
@ SilkTork: You have perhaps forgotten part of the process, then. Unless pages at DRV are temporarily undeleted, only admins will be able to read them, i. e. only admins will be able to discuss them in a meaningful way. It's not supposed to work like that. I followed these instructions for how to do it. Bishonen | talk 18:27, 25 February 2019 (UTC).
Is deletion of a page an enforcement action that is authorised under discretionary sanctions? Based on the argument by Ivanvector at DRV I would say no. It is not. Furthermore I think the argument that it constituted WP:POLEMIC in the first place is flawed. Simonm223 ( talk) 16:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
This response is directed to GoldenRing's bullet point #1 only, as the subsequent bullets assume a view with which I disagree.
As I stated at DRV, my view is that page deletion is not authorized by discretionary sanctions, certainly not explicitly, and neither in spirit. While the standard provisions authorize administrators to act in arbitration enforcement through the use of editing sanctions and page restrictions, and we grant significant latitude to administrators to create restrictions within the bounds of these categories and to block users who violate those restrictions in the name of arbitration enforcement, these powers do not extend to editorial and/or political control, nor wholesale removal of content. Furthermore, nothing in the gun control case appears to specifically enact these powers. And generally, it is common practice that the Arbitration Committee does not weigh in on matters of encyclopedia or userspace content, and as such it is an improper assumption that the Committee would wish to empower admins with unilateral deletion powers. But noting the disagreement at DRV, I would also like this to be explicitly clarified.
As for Bishonen's action and DRV itself in this incident: if Arbcom has explicitly declared that deleting a page is a sanction available for arbitration enforcement, then I would agree that AE would be the correct venue to review an Arbitration-enforcement deletion. However, the community's venue for deletions out-of-process is DRV, thus DRV is a logical venue for this incident. It is standard and widely-accepted practice to undelete content while its deletion is under review, and Bishonen's restoration ought to be viewed in that light unless and until someone can point to already-established Arbitration procedure in which the Committee has explicitly authorized userpage deletion as a discretionary sanction, and if and only if that process is already established, then owing to the present disagreement Bishonen should be given an acting in good faith pass on this one, or a "to satisfy the pedants" admonishment at the most severe.
Stating for the record that I believe that everyone carrying a mop has acted in good faith with respect to this incident. I also hold both GoldenRing and Bishonen in very high regard, and I appreciate GoldenRing seeking clarification on this point. Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 16:35, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Ivanvector. Such a deletion is not within the scope of discretionary sanctions. Perhaps an Arbitrator with a longer memory than I have may find such a procedure but I'd be surprised. Certainly it was not authorised by us during the four years I was on the committee. I think everyone has acted in good faith with this but I believe that GoldenRing was wrong and that the page should not have been deleted. I've looked at the page and agree with those who say that the content does not violate policy. I'll also note that no editors have been named although obviously they can be identified via the links. I'll add that even if it hasn't been used it is information that has the potential to be useful. Doug Weller talk 17:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I can think of situations whereby deletion would be in the purview of an AE action (for example, if a topic-banned editor was violating their TBan on a userspace page) but I agree with the two editors above that I can't see that this falls into this category. It is probably something that ArbCom could do with clarifying for future reference. Black Kite (talk) 17:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
If no harm would arise from having this page discussed at MfD, then it should be discussed at MfD, rather than deleted by any one person's unilateral action. Obviously both admin acted in good faith in a situation that is unclear and possibly unprecedented; any suggestion of sanctions would be over the top. Leviv ich 18:01, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
But nobody reading Special:Permalink/881981663 carefully would conclude that information on that page is "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, perceived flaws, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately ... (my emphasis)
related to others". All of the information therein is related to articles, and there is no Arbitration Enforcement available to prevent editors from gathering quotes or diffs from articles or from article talk. We prevent users from gathering negative information about others, for reasons of BLP, but that is not licence to extend the prevention to collating article text. 'Shonen's restoration of the deleted page to allow scrutiny does not breach WP:BLP or WP:COPYVIO (the only absolute prohibitions on restoration), and meets the test of COMMONSENSE.-- RexxS ( talk) 19:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
"All enforcement actions have what you describe as "the usual immunity to reversion", whether they are valid or not."I refute that. To misquote Jimbo, the presumption of validity is not a suicide pact. If a claimed AE action is obviously invalid , as yours was, then a reversion of that action in order to comply with a conflicting policy or guideline is perfectly reasonable. Even you recognise that 'Shonen's actions were reasonable.
Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others, otherwise no quotes would ever be allowed. The sophistry is in trying to stretch those words to justify deleting a page that quotes hundreds of different editors, and cannot sensibly be construed to contain negative information about those editors. Any such connotation is purely in the mind of the observer, and you've made the mistake of construing talk page comments critical of an article or of statements in that article as "negative information" about the editors who made the comments.
All queries or appeals regarding arbitration enforcement, including those
feltalleged to be out of process or againstexistingpolicy, must first follow arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before being reversedor discussedat another venue.
The basis for deletion comes from WP:UP. That same page says "In general other users' user pages are managed by that user. Except for blatant or serious matters, it is preferable to try contacting the user before deletion (see above). However, unambiguous copyright violations, attack pages, promotional text, and privacy or
BLP violations can be
speedy deleted using a suitable
template, such as {{
db-attack}}, {{
db-copyvio}} or {{
db-spamuser}}; other pages likely to require deletion (or where remedial action is not taken) may be submitted to
deletion discussion.
Justifying a deletion by citing policy and then not following the policy for how to go about deletion seems problematic at best.
The reason for deletion is not a speedy criteria. And standard DS do not allow for deletion of a page as near as I can tell. I only see one other deletion in WP:AEL and that was justified on A7/BLP grounds. As S Marshall has indicated, AE enforcing admins very much deserve our support and I'm personally grateful to those that take on such a demanding and stressful job. But here there is overreach outside of the scope of either a single admin or AE. There was no rush and no reason WP:MfD couldn't have been used (where I suspect it would have been kept).
In any case, I agree with Roy (below)--this is about content not behavior. The discussion belongs at DRV. edited Hobit ( talk) 04:45, 26 February 2019 (UTC) Hobit ( talk) 01:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't often get involved in ArbCom business, so forgive me if I'm not up on the nuances of policy and procedure here. But, reading what User:SmokeyJoe said above: ArbCom is supposed to stay out of content decisions, I find myself very much in agreement. The converse is certainly true; DRV deals with content, and stays out of behavioral issues. It's common in DRV debates for somebody to write, We're only here to talk about the page deletion; if you want to pursue a user's conduct, there's other fora for that. This seems like a natural and useful division of responsibilities, and why it seems odd to be talking about ArbCom getting involved in reviewing a page deletion.
I don't think it was appropriate to delete the user page. I also think it was perfectly reasonable (and SOP at DRV) to temp-undelete the page for review. I also want to echo what others have said; while there's clearly a disagreement about what the proper course of action should have been, it's also clear that everybody has acted in good faith here. There should be no thought of sanctions for anybody. -- RoySmith (talk) 03:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't know if I have standing here, but can I request that this get resolved sometime soon? Surely, six weeks is long enough to make a decision. I, as an admin, are left not knowing if temp-undeleting a page at WP:DRV could lead to my being desysoped. What we've got now is arbcom saying, "We reserve the right to desysop you if you break the rules, but we won't tell you what the rules are". That's not useful. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
While I disagree with GoldenRing on the merits of the deletion, I agree with their submission of 16:22, 26 February 2019 in that the Committee should clarify whether deletions (other than those already allowed by ordinary deletion policy) are in principle allowed as discretionary sanctions, and whether any review of deletions labeled as discretionary sanctions must take place by way of the procedures for the appeal of AE actions. In my reading of applicable policy, the answer to both questions is clearly yes, but the opinions to the contrary that have been voiced at DRV show that this question needs clarification. Sandstein 16:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I've performed I'd guess around a quarter of the temporary undeletions at DRV over the past few years. Contra what's been stated both above and below, it's neither an absolute right (even barring copyvio and blp - there's been a number of cases where no admin's been willing to tempundelete in the cases of egregious spam, for example; I can dig out some example DRVs if it'd be helpful) nor, in particular, automatic: in practice we almost always wait until an uninvolved user requests it. I don't recall ever seeing the author of a page requesting temp undeletion for the purposes of DRV before; even had this deletion not been labeled an AE action, I'd certainly have declined, though I might have offered to email it. — Cryptic 20:57, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Dialing my wonk-o-meter up to 11, I'm not seeing anywhere in WP:Protection policy that authorizes arbcom to authorize admins to protect pages, either. (It does mention arbcom with respect to unprotections, and very indirectly for extended-confirmed protections.) So the idea that arbcom can't authorize deletions just because it's not explicitly stated in WP:Deletion policy or WP:Criteria for speedy deletion doesn't get a whole lot of sympathy from me. That said, if the committee ends up deciding this deletion was correct, I'll go through the hassle at WT:CSD to try to get this properly documented, probably as a variant of WP:G9. — Cryptic 22:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
@ RoySmith: re Special:Diff/891855139: Agree that resolution would be nice. The rest is a nonissue: you should be looking at the content and logs of pages you restore anyway, even temporarily. If it contains blatant attacks or copyvios, or it's labeled as a copyvio or an "arbitration enforcement" variant ("AE" or "discretionary sanctions" or "DS" or "AC/DS"), you don't just restore it on your own initiative even if you think the labeling's incorrect, you consult with the deleting admin. If the deletion isn't labeled as arbitration enforcement, then it's not a valid enforcement action, per WP:AC/DS#sanctions.log. — Cryptic 16:13, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
If we're going to allow that ACDS is legitimate grounds for out-of-process deletion, then we're probably approaching the point where we've abandoned the pretense that ArbCom does not make policy. GMG talk 01:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
If the standard operating procedure of undeletion for DRV can be called a violation of an enforcement action authorised under discretionary sanctions, I think we've reached sort of an end point grammatically and in terms of Arb Power. Sorry, but I think this is silly and pushing the point of authoritay too far. Drmies ( talk) 15:19, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I came upon this when I went to close the DRV. The committee's discussion thus far, in my opinion, has yet to fully grapple with the core concern that I see from those critical of permitting DS deletion, and one that I share: permitting out of process deletion under the authority of enforcement of DS is taking DS enforcement away from being a tool to enable administrators to deal with disruptive conduct, and instead making admins arbiters of disfavored content. The dichotomy is real, as several committee members appear to feel that under appropriate circumstances an administrator acting under DS enforcement authority could delete a page (or I suppose an article) and be subject to review only at ARCA. The tools ordinarily used - topic bans, blocks, and page protections - are designed to reduce disruption by modifying user conduct. Deletion, uniquely, hides the information from ordinary readers, and that is why the comprehensive deletion process governs when there is consensus that such removal is acceptable. The committee should recognize that just as the AN community has special expertise in dealing with user conduct issues, Afd/Mfd/DRV and their ilk are where editors have particular insight these content issues. It would be concerning if the community's expertise were to be deprecated in favor of an enforcement mechanism made for user conduct issues. My personal preference here would be to see the committee take deletion off the table of DS enforcement options. Functionally equivalent would be to say the deletion process must be followed - a speedy deletion criterion cited, with review at DRV. Less satisfactory would be to limit such reviews to ARCA. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 04:52, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
I happened to see mention of this discussion and am alarmed by the way it is going. Reading this user page, it is clearly a complaint about the bias of articles, which is to say, it is directly applicable to Wikipedia editing. It is not addressed at any editor (indeed, has timidly omitted usernames). It does, of course, favor a certain point of view, but editors should be allowed to favor a point of view they agree with when it is being excluded from articles. I say this even though I am pro-gun rights and suspect many of the individual edits were correct.
The consequence of (literally) arbitrarily excluding such content is to propagate the idea that Wikipedia is biased and to encourage editors to share information like this off-site. The consequence of that is that Wikipedia loses any ability to suppress deliberate cyberbullying, while the editors lured to partisan sanctuaries are more likely to fall under the influence of actual lobbyist money. In every way, the quality of discourse is degraded by deletions like this. And unless the arbitration decision specifically prohibited making any new pages about a topic, such deletions cannot possibly be valid arbitration enforcement. Wnt ( talk) 20:47, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I just closed the DRV as overturn as the clear consensus of the discussion. Once you have completed your august deliberations could someone let me know if I can enact the clear consensus of the discussion or whether super Mario has won. Incidentally my autocorrect hates arbcom it keeps changing it to random or wrecked. Spartaz Humbug! 19:03, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
The arbitration process exists to impose binding solutions to Wikipedia conduct disputes (i.e., not content disputes requiring mediation) that neither community discussion nor administrators have successfully resolved. The arbitration process is not a vehicle for creating new policy by fiat. The Committee's decisions may interpret existing policy and guidelines, recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct, or create procedures through which policy and guidelines may be enforced. The Committee does not rule on content, but may propose means by which community resolution of a content dispute can be facilitated. (My bolding). Fish+ Karate 11:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
In my view "removal" in Arb/DS policy is meant in the sense it is used at WP:TALK or WP:BLP, that is an action that removes an edit or comment, it is not meant in the sense it is used in deletion policy or oversight policy. As we see from this case, it is not prudent to have the expansive construction of "removal" in Arb/DS to include deletion and oversight, which both have extensive articulated process, separate and apart. -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 10:43, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Wherever we draw the boundaries of arbitration enforcement, there will be fringe cases where admins may disagree on whether AE applies. ArbCom needs to decide whether it retains (or wants to retain) exclusive jurisdiction over the policing of AE boundaries. Today we're talking about page deletion, next time we may talk about the applicability of AE over protection in certain circumstances or some other admin action.
If ArbCom decides it retains exclusive jurisdiction over the boundaries, which I disagree with, then it needs to be prepared that any action that is declared by any admin as an act of arbitration enforcement will automatically escalate to ArbCom if someone disagrees with it. This seems to go against ArbCom's mantra that lower venues of dispute resolution ought to be tried first if possible (as is DRV in this case) before escalating to ArbCom in general.
As for the case at hand, I agree with RexxS and Ivanvector here. We ought to be narrow and cautious in the interpretation of AE provisions. While the ArbCom is allowed to make an (clarifying) amendment that DS covers page deletion, I don't think "removal" in the current wording includes page deletion, because as many other have pointed out, page deletion redacts the contents of the page history from public view. Deryck C. 14:40, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Maybe, just maybe my comment will help motivate a close. Countless hours are spent/wasted trying to decipher ambiguous PAGs. The obvious solution would be to clarify the ones that create the problems. As editors are so often advised, it is not about who is right or wrong, it's about the disruption, and admins & ArbCom need to apply this to their own actions. It appears ArbCom invests a measurable amount of time and energy looking for reasons to not take a case...thus, the creation of AE...which sometimes leads to more confusion under the guise of saving time and energy. What we're doing in essence is substituting input from several admins for discretionary action and passing it over to a single admin, and if they execute the action improperly, off with their heads. Fix the ambiguities. I can't see that either admin is at fault here; therefore, trying to afix blame is not resolving the problem. Atsme Talk 📧 14:28, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Option C in the survey below seems to be the only valid option. Because WP:AC/DS is simply delegation of ArbCom authority to admins, and ArbCom does not make content decisions, general decisions to delete content as such are outside the remit of AC/DS, absent some other deletion rationale. However, if admins are already empowered to delete something under other policy, then doing so, within those policy limits, and as part of AC/DS action would be legitimate. For example, AC/DS is most specifically about blocks and topic bans, but admins can do other things, like impose a "move-ban" on someone mis-using manual page moves, and require them to use RM process. I don't think anyone would argue that if someone were disruptively moving pages in an AC/DS topic area that DS could not involve a move ban, despite not being mentioned at the AC/DS page. The difference here is that the deleting admin is making what amounts to an WP:IDONTLIKEIT content decision about the material in the page (I have no opinion on the allegation that this was politically motivated). That's not a rationale for DS action, and not a rationale for deletion, so no combination of DS + DP/CSD results in "I can delete this because I feel like it". In this particular case, the motivation seems genuinely WP:POLEMIC-enforcement-motivated (though I don't think I agree with the assessment that the material necessarily qualified under POLEMIC). We cannot predict the future with certainty, but can make educated guesses. Since AC/DS is applied to controversial topics, and disruption correlates strongly with controversy, it seems virtually guaranteed that unrestrained deletion under AC/DS will result in suppression by admins of material they disagree with, by translating "is opposite my or the majority view in a dispute" into "is disruptive". Content by itself is not disruptive (outside some narrowly defined classes like vandalism with butthole pictures, or OUTING with personally identifiable information); editorial actions are.
On the follow-up questions: DRV is and should remain an obvious venue for review of any deletion. It's not "WP:Deletion review except for some people". WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY and WP:GAMING are important. We don't want a decision under which any admin who seeks to avoid DRV and general community scrutiny for questionable deletions can simply claim some vague AC/DS rationale and thereby close all avenues of appeal other than AE (which is a star chamber that leans toward presumption of guilt of anyone accused by an AE admin, and is generally hostile to editors who challenge an AE admin's decision), or ArbCom (which is even scarier to most editors, though actually fairer). In both processes, there is a strong bias in favor of the admin who acted, both in the minds of those reviewing the action and usually in the admin party's knowledge of the excessively legalistic procedures surrounding ArbCom and its AE board. ArbCom is not bound by precedent, so the fact that it has historically treated all AC/DS actions as appealable only to AE or ArbCom is irrelevant. Explicitly allowing deletion as a DS action is dangerous, and removing DRV as an examination venue would be a disenfranchisement of the community without any real discussion or notice. ArbCom deciding that its clan of AE "enforcers" how has deletion impunity and near-immunity (option B in the survey, or even option C with DRV excluded) would be a poor and controversial move. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:09, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
I think that the approach proposed by AGK – to make it clear that deletions are not possible as an AE action – is the best way forward. I recognise the concern that SilkTork raises, but the alternative proposal is not the way to address that, in my view. As I understand it, SilkTork wants it to be clear that an admin may make a deletion under their ordinary authority under the deletion policy while also addressing an AE situation. However, by adding the extra mention of the deletion policy implies that the use of ordinary authority in relation to deletions is an exception. It admits the interpretation that the existing practice of an indefinite block with only the first year as an AE action is not permitted.
I suggest that AGK's approach / addition be preferred, and a relevant addition to the DS procedures state that:
The advantage of this approach, in my view, is that it covers not simply this deletion issue but any and all questions that could arise where ordinary admin authority is used. It makes the treatment uniform and avoids any claim that the deletions are treated differently. The second point would also cover any other area that might be questioned in the future. I don't know how much of this is already covered in the DS policy, but I think it is worth codifying. I looked at the policy quickly but didn't see any clear statement that makes this clear, and I don't know exactly where it would be added or how it would be worded. EdChem ( talk) 00:44, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable with the notion that a AE admin should have less authority than a non AE admin, and so create a situation where someone creates a page in direct violation of an ArbCom sanction, yet an AE admin could only delete such a page outside of ArbCom protection, and so there is uncertainty (again) over where the matter should be discussed.
The purpose of discretionary sanctions is to enable normal editing and consensus-building procedures to function even in situations where there is substantial disruption; their purpose is not to replace such procedures. The idea that an WP:AE deletion is not subject to WP:DRV therefore seems patiently absurd, especially given that DRV is, itself, historically an extremely high bar to pass (ie. the nature of an appeal means that in the absence of a consensus the default is that the article would stay deleted.) More generally, the problem stems from situations where WP:AE matters intrude on content decisions; based on that danger, I would amend WP:AC/DS#Modifications by administrators to state that by default, any content-based changes resulting from an WP:AE action (including deletions) can be reversed provided there is a clear consensus via an established venue like WP:DRV, without requiring that that be a consensus of administrators; and that in cases where there is a disagreement, such consensus is presumed to be sufficient to establish that something is a content issue. While WP:AE isn't supposed to apply to content in the first place, it is inevitable that there will occasionally be overlap, and it's important to establish that in cases where that occurs, an administrator cannot override or ignore consensus on content issues simply by invoking WP:AE (and that the default, in cases of confusion, is to go with a broad consensus when it exists.) -- Aquillion ( talk) 04:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Note that earlier today I closed the AE appeal [23] and consequently restored the page in question. At the time, I was not aware of the existence of this clarification request (I have probably seen it on my watchlist some time ago, decided that it has no relation to my activities, and forgotten about it). I believe that the closure of AE is completely orthogonal to the request, since I believe nobody says the page may not be restored as a result of an AE closure. However, if anybody feels that the existence of this clarification request mandates that the AE request must sty open, feel free to unclose it.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 10:44, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
@ SilkTork: - I was hoping you (as the tweaking arb) could clarify how this is going to avoid looping round to the same problem - if it goes to AE, which would probably rule to adopt the broader interpretation of its own authority, then we seem set to end right back up again here as the "losing" side appeals the decision. The "appropriate forum" is only a symptomatic consideration since it would never be considered for DRV if arbitrary sanctions didn't/doesn't include deleting pages. Nosebagbear ( talk) 20:29, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
If the final motion passes (as it appears it will), you may also want to clarify
WP:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Standard provision: appeals and modifications. Will an undeletion request be considered to be the same as a request for modification of page restrictions and so may be made by any editor? Otherwise, "(a)ppeals may be made only by the editor under sanction", and for a page deletion, the deletion could affect many editors (an
ESSAY for example). Perhaps explicitly change it to something like "Requests to undelete pages or for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor."
But does that really belong in a section titled "Appeals by sanctioned editors", when that's not necessarily who will be appealing?
Mojoworker (
talk) 19:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Most editors are loathe to read anything related to guns on Wikipedia, let alone comment. This issue is much broader than any disputed area. If this request were entitled for example "Authorize page deletion as a discretionary sanction" or some such, the feedback our arbiters would be receiving from our community would be very different. 2A0C:E300:0:0:0:0:0:23 ( talk) 20:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
To see if we need to take this discussion further, it may be helpful to take a quick survey:
(1) Proposed:
The Discretionary sanctions Procedure § Sanctions is amended at sanctions.caveats to read as follows:
For the avoidance of doubt, enforcing administrators are not authorised to issue site bans; to require the removal of user rights that cannot be granted by an administrator or to restrict their usage; to delete pages; nor to enforce discretionary sanctions beyond their reasonable scope.
where the text underlined is to be inserted.
(1) Proposed:
The Discretionary sanctions Procedure § Sanctions is amended at sanctions.caveats to read as follows:
For the avoidance of doubt, enforcing administrators are not authorised to issue site bans; to require the removal of user rights that cannot be granted by an administrator or to restrict their usage; to delete pages outside of the deletion policy; nor to enforce discretionary sanctions beyond their reasonable scope.
where the text underlined is to be inserted.
The following text is added to the "Important notes" section of the standard provision on appeals and modifications, replacing the current text of the fourth note:
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.