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Initiated by The Rambling Man at 10:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Two years ago I was topic-banned from commenting on DYK (other than on my now defunct errors page) as a result of a number of issues with my approach and generally poor manner of expressing disappointment over my perception of the quality (or lack) of many hooks appearing on the main page. A year later that TBAN was adjusted such that I could review hooks if explicitly invited to do so. Another year has passed, during which I focused almost exclusively on content creation. Indeed, a third place in the WikiCup was accompanied by 13 new featured articles and 44 new good articles. So I'm honestly thrilled that I've found my mojo once again, why I started here 15 years ago: article creation/improvement and taking them all the way to the best I can achieve. Enabling me to nominate these articles for DYK would be really good, not for WikiCup points per se, but just to allow the improved articles the exposure I think the hard work I put into them deserves.
I won the
April/May GAN review drive with 105 reviews in two months. and I would challenge anyone to see if they can find a review which is sub-par. I believe strongly that the main page content should be as good as it can be, and removing this TBAN would enable me to ensure that (a) I can nominate my own newly improved content (b) review others with my usual standards (in line with DYK rules of course) (c) more easily highlight issues that are on the main page in DYK which I have not been easily able to do for two years. I realise that my tone and approach two years or so ago which led to the TBAN were unnecessarily harsh and scathing, and sometimes even hurtful, and I will promise to keep that dialled to zero. I would even be delighted to be put onto some kind of probationary period, say six months, where any behaviour deemed unsuitable would result in immediate TBAN reinstatement.
I wasn't going to make a statement because I wasn't working regularly at ERRORS two years ago and can't know how that felt to those who were. But TRM's final two sentences convince me to support a six-month probationary lifting of the TBAN with a reassessment at the end of the six months. I realize that's an addition to what TRM is proposing. —valereee ( talk) 14:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm in support of this - TRM has markedly cut back the snark, etc that he used to display. He's certainly not perfect, but what I see of him is vastly improved. Just don't backslide! Ealdgyth ( talk) 21:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
During my time here at DYK, The Rambling Man has struck me as an editor that would always make sure the DYK criteria were met - especially when it comes to the "Is it interesting?" rule. Although I think TRM has sometimes displayed an overly negative sense of humor, I think he would be a great addition the to the DYK reviewer team. L293D ( ☎ • ✎) 13:16, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Echoing all of my colleagues above. While I don't have much Main page experience aside for some ITN work, I, too, have noticed improvement. Therefore, I encourage the Committee to grant TRM's amendment. I think the benefit in adopting it far outweighs the risk. TRM's work has always inspired exceptional confidence for its high-quality. Looks like a no-brainer win-win. Good stuff. El_C 21:17, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
I like his work and I would only want him back in DYK if he isn't uncivil to other editors. It seems like he can likely do that. SL93 ( talk) 03:03, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
I've had multiple disagreements with TRM in the past, but based on his comments above and his promise to change and behave from now on, I'm willing to agree to him being given another chance, provided that he keep his promise to keep civil. A six-month probation also seems like a decent compromise and would allow TRM to prove himself while also understanding that if he reverts to his previous behavior, the topic-ban will be reinstated. Admittedly I haven't interacted with him much ever since he was initially banned from DYK, but if his comments above truly prove that he has changed for the better, then why not give him another shot? Narutolovehinata5 t c csd new 03:05, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
I would support the lifting of the TBAN. The Rambling Man has demonstrated, in his attention to detail in the "ITN" and "On this day" discussions in connection with the main page, that he is perfectly able to avoid the type of behaviour that led to the ban. Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 06:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Interacting with TRM at GAN and ITN over the last few years, the snark in general has certainly become at least more friendly, and the overt disapproval towards others' views has all but disappeared - where it appears in ITN comments I take for humor. TRM is a good reviewer with a good understanding of policy and, politeness lessons seemingly learned, can only be a benefit at DYK. If restrictions are still needed, a topic ban from bringing up DYK at ERRORS should suffice. I support the amendment, and would also support a probationary period as a sign of good faith. Kingsif ( talk) 10:00, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
No. I try to avoid him in any situation, just because he has been such a difficult editor to deal with, going off a different direction at times. My only recent interaction with him recently was at FLC in October 2020. I finally withdrew my nomination, because he effectively sidetracked it by insisting I find a way to make the nomination's table look a specific way on his own browser. It even went to WP:VPT, where he was told this was about his browser, and not a Wikipedia solvable issue. It certainly wasn't an FLC criteria. I finally threw in the towel and withdrew my nomination, just to end the nonsense. That dialog is Jean Harlow FLC. Here is the VP discussion Visual differences between browsers on tables. He's too unpredictable. Just because he's not like that on DYK now ... is because he is not on DYK. — Maile ( talk) 11:30, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
(First time commenting here, so hope I'm getting the formatting right) In my experience, first doing some work at TRM/Errors and since following his work across GA reviewing and quite a lot of content work, I've had no bad experiences with this editor— though I understand that people have. I've also noticed a general improvement in their behaviour. I get the impression that they know what the issues with their approach were and have worked to adopt a more civil &c demeanor. I see no reason, at this point, why the TBAN should not be lifted, either in a probationary manner or completely. Eddie891 Talk Work 12:33, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
is very encouraging and bodes well, but I would feel better if it went further. The "harsh and scathing" tone was not confined to DYK, and extended over a period considerably longer than two years ago. I wonder if you would be willing to make the same promise about participation at FAC, and extend the probationary period to cover FAC discussions as well? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:30, 27 December 2020 (UTC)I realise that my tone and approach two years or so ago which led to the TBAN were unnecessarily harsh and scathing, and sometimes even hurtful, and I will promise to keep that dialled to zero. I would even be delighted to be put onto some kind of probationary period, say six months, where any behaviour deemed unsuitable would result in immediate TBAN reinstatement.
Here's some fresh evidence of continuing incivility. TRM's user page is currently just a diff in which he is told to "fuck off princess". This is not explained and seems to be a blatant violation of WP:POLEMIC. If a new editor should come across this while trying to communicate with or learn more about TRM, they seem likely to find it confusing, stressful and unpleasant.
I traced this to understand the issue. The immediate cause was an incident at WP:ERRORS. Here's the timeline:
My take on this is that there's some bad blood between TRM and Floquenbeam. TRM seizes on a minor issue and uses it as an excuse to start haranguing Floquenbeam. Floquenbeam reverts and then, when TRM follows him, tells him repeatedly to go away. Having baited Floquenbeam into responding with incivility, TRM then flaunts his trophy on his user page for all to see.
This is consistent with the previous pattern of TRM being so difficult and unpleasant that most admins refuse to deal with him at WP:ERRORS. This got so bad that TRM had to set up his own independent errors page for a while. Now that he has returned to the official page, relations have degenerated again. Arbcom should please consider tightening sanctions, rather than relaxing them.
My interactions with The Rambling Man have all been pleasant, over many years, and I'd like to have him back at DYK. I am busy with celebrations, but could find as evidence more DYK reviews and GA reviews that I liked, here are two samples: Template:Did you know nominations/Johannes Martin Kränzle and Talk:Vespro della Beata Vergine/GA1. I also found interactions pleasant when I reviewed "his" articles at FAC. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 11:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
TRM and I have worked on a few article projects together, and we interact quite a bit at ERRORS and elsewhere. On the few occasions when he's directed his annoyance at main-page issues in my direction, I've taken it in my stride - speaking personally it's water off a duck's back, and I know that any "abuse" I may have received in the past is only because he cares deeply about the content we show to our readers.
That said, I know others find this more stressful to deal with, and I did used to cringe sometimes at the remarks directed towards other editors in DYK and elsewhere. So I think that when the TBAN was implemented two years ago, it was the right remedy. It was clear at that time, that the bad blood between TRM and some of the DYK regulars had hit breaking point, and TRM himself reluctantly accepted that remedy. I genuinely do think the situation has improved since then though, per what's written in the nomination statement above. Other than the odd general complaint such as "I thought people checked these things", when an OTD error creeps through, his comments generally seem to be neutral in tone these days and focused on the issues rather than the editors.
So yes, definitely consider me a "support" for the proposed remedy. The built-in circuit-breaker means that people don't need to be too fearful that the old situation revives. And honestly, without getting into the saga that Andrew links above, I find it a bit laughable that TRM is being held to account for a breach of talk page and edit summary etiquette, followed by a piece of clear incivility towards him by an admin. Like I say, I get that some people are needled by TRM, and probably his initially comment was unnecessary, but ultimately he's a human being too and nobody would like being spoken to like that. — Amakuru ( talk) 12:13, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
As a frequent contributor to ITN and ERRORS, I would say that TRM has markedly improved his behaviour. There has much more focus from him on content creation (where he excels) and I can't recall much in the way of any incivility or arguments. I support allowing him to contribute at DYK and a probationary period will ensure if there are any problems that the sanction can be easily re-imposed. But I don't anticipate that happening. -- P-K3 ( talk) 15:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Ealdgyth puts it quite succinctly. "markedly cut back the snark" ... "certainly not perfect, but [...] vastly improved" ... "Just don't backslide".
I do not find Andrew Davidson's objections fair. He characterizes most of TRM's posts in the reported exchange negatively (usually by calling them 'snark'), while "fuck off" (accompanied by the edit summary "fuck off princess") is characterized as 'forcefully telling TRM to go away'. Similarly with the complaint on WP:ERRORS: "This report has been here nearly 48 hours without response. The article in question has been on the main page nine hours....". I'm not even sure it's a complaint, more of a reminder, maybe both. Regardless, especially in light of what else TRM has posted there recently, what those two sentences certainly are not is "a constant stream of complaints and negativity".
I hope the arbirtrators take a closer look at that page as well as TRM's recent contributions there and elsewhere, and then make a decision as to whether lifting the topic ban is a good idea for the encyclopedia, but I hope they don't rely on cherry-picked incidents, summarized and characterized with hyperbole, but without balance. --- Sluzzelin talk 15:06, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
TRM cares very much about the reliability of the project, and whilst some of the comments that led to his topic ban were clearly unduly harsh, at the time there was a somewhat cavalier attitude amongst some editors at DYK, leading to really unsuitable material, including BLP violations, being proposed for - and in some cases making it as far as - the Main Page. This does not seem to be the case now, and therefore I think the possible flashpoints may be drastically reduced. I think the motion is perfectly fine. Black Kite (talk) 15:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm mentioned here by Andrew D. above, but have no opinion on TRM returning to DYK. Being occasionally harassed by him is my penance for not standing up for the people he harassed before me. If he returns to DYK, I'll avoid the DYK section of ERRORS, so problem solved I guess. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 17:59, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I've benefited considerably from all of my interactions with TRM - he's reviewed a number of my articles for GA and FA, and given me lots of useful advice and guidance which has helped me enormously. He has always been rigorous, but has been unfailingly civil and friendly in his dealings with me. All of my interactions have been in the last two years, when I first interacted with him I was a relative newb, and I've always been very receptive to his advice. I can't comment on whether he takes a different tone in interactions with editors who are less willing to listen to his advice, or with whom has has had disputes in the past, but based on my own experiences I would support lifting the ban and giving him another chance to apply his talents to this part of the project. GirthSummit (blether) 10:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The Rambling Man topic ban from the Did You Know? process ( Remedy 9 in The Rambling Man case) is lifted, subject to a probationary period lasting six months from the date this motion is enacted. During this period, any uninvolved administrator may re-impose the topic ban as an arbitration enforcement action, subject to appeal only to the Arbitration Committee. If the probationary period elapses without incident, the topic ban is to be considered permanently lifted.
Enacted - Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 09:15, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by EvergreenFir at 20:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Does the scope of the discretionary sanctions promulgated by this amendment or original case include Turkey? I ask because I recently have noticed an increase in complaints around nationalist editing for and against Turkey, as well as disruptive editing around Turkey and Armenia. Examples include:
Eastern_Europe#Southeast_Europe says the part of Turkey is in Eastern Europe, but only a small portion. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Further clarification: If Turkey is included, then would Uyghurs be included as well? This is another area full of disruption. The article describes the Uyghurs as a "Turkic ethnic group". EvergreenFir (talk) 20:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you all for the clarification! EvergreenFir (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
The sanctions of Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 were put in place, per the 2013 Clarification request, to deal with cases of ethnic conflicts similarly related to the one of Armenia/Azerbaijan. This would likely include the conflict between Armenia and Turkey, but I can't imagine it would be so permissive to include just Turkey (and certainly not the Uyghurs). – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 00:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I am sure the EE discretionary sanctions do not include Turkey-Armenia relations. They are rooted in WP:EEML, and Turkey has never been an issue there. On the other hand, recently the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh intensified in real life, because Azerbaijan took an offensive against this Armenia-held area with the support of Turkey, and was able to regain control over a considerable part of it (with Armenians being evacuated). This caused escalation of Armenian-Azerbaijani clashes all over the internet, including Wikipedia. The reason that Turkey-Armenia issues escalated are in this conflict, and it would be reasonable to add them to the Armenia-Azerbaijan discretionary sanctions. Furthermore, if we are talking about Turkey-Syria issues, these are neither Eastern Europe nor Armenia-Azerbaijan. They are currently covered by general sanctions, and I believe upgrading them to DS could be a good idea but it would require a full case and can not be done as clarification.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 10:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Crouch, Swale at 17:48, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Please replace my 1 article a week AFC submission with a particular number I can create per week, day or month etc.
Tiers | Tier 3 | Tier 4 |
---|---|---|
6 months | ~3 a day | ~2 a week |
12 months | ~1.5 a day | ~1 a week |
I'm not specifying a specific number here since in my last appeal I was advised to "ensure that there is consensus for any future large creations of articles, prior to making the request for relaxation of his restrictions" well I have attempted to do that at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes RfC and although there is a consensus against a bot creating them (unless perhaps someone knows how to correctly program it) there it does seem like as long as the articles have meaningful content people are fine. Please specify how many of such articles I should be allowed to create per week, month or day etc.
Can I also have the appeal time modified back to 6 months please, namely so that I can appeal on 1 July.
Can I also be allowed to create redirects and DAB pages as long as I keep in mind WP:RDELETE and WP:COSTLY.
I don't think the move restriction really needs to be removed given I can file as many WP:RMT or WP:RM as I want if we do approve the ability to create directly as proposed a move exception should be to move pages from draftspace or userspace etc to mainspace in accordance with such creation limits. If we don't relax the creations restrictions significantly (say only a few a week) then I'd suggest allowing me to move pages as a result of a RM discussion that has been listed for at least 7 days since although I can still do this now people might question if I'm not allowed to move them myself and have to use RMT for move requests I close. However if one of the tier 3 options (or similar) happens then I'd say that this would be unnecessary since I should be encouraged to focus on creating good articles rather than potentially rushing it in order to do other things.
Almost exactly a year ago I said (in part) This wouldn't be Crouch, Swale's second chance - this would be the fourth or fifth loosening of the unblock conditions but there is still no evidence that they understand why the restrictions were imposed in the first place.
[2] Everyone is one year older and there have been many changes in the world since then, but I am still not seeing any evidence that Crouch, Swale understands why they were placed under these restrictions and no evidence they understand why previous appeals were declined. The request to be allowed to appeal every six months speaks volumes to this last point imo. So I recommend that this appeal is declined.
Thryduulf (
talk) 02:08, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Awilley at 02:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
This incident is so inconsequential that normally I would ignore it, but as one of the parties has found it unfair enough to retire [5] and the other has explicitly welcomed Committee oversight [6] [7] [8] here I am. Both editors are people I respect who were acting in good faith, so I hope this can be resolved quickly and without any hard feelings or extra drama.
At issue is this statement by Objective3000 at WP:AE addressing Mandruss and the editor who filed the AE. Mandruss had been taken to AE for reverting the same content twice in 24 hrs and declining (on user talk) to self-revert. After Objective's comment, Mandruss self-reverted and Objective3000 re-reverted. (For what it's worth Mandruss was reverting content that had been recently added to the Lead that didn't have consensus on the talk page. [9])
El_C saw this as tag-team editing to circumvent a sanction and logged a warning for Objective3000 to that effect over my objections. I think Objective did a Good Thing in trying to resolve the problem in the most efficient way possible, and doesn't deserve a logged warning for that. Also note that the edit restriction on the article does not prohibit Objective3000, who had not made any other edits to that article in the preceding week, from reverting a revert, so O3000 did not violate any sanction or policy. ~ Awilley ( talk) 02:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you to the people who have spent time reviewing this. Reflecting on this over the past couple of days, I think what bugs me most is our knee-jerk tendency to classify all tag-team editing as bad. The goodness/badness of tag-teaming, just like regular reverting, depends entirely on the context. It's good when used on vandalism, BLP violations, copyvios, obviously UNDUE/POV content, and edits that are clearly against consensus. It's bad when used indiscriminately to circumvent or disrupt the consensus building process. This is why it surprises me when so few people here, including some Arbitrators, have not commented on the context. If you look at nothing else, please look at this diff (including the edit summary). I realize it's tricky to decipher what text had been added to the Lead between all those references, so here's the text itself for your convenience:
The riots and storming of the Capitol were described as insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism.[2][3][4] Some news outlets labeled the act as an attempted coup d'état by Trump.[5][6] The incident was the first time the Capitol had been overrun since the 1814 burning of Washington by the British during the War of 1812.[7][8]
There was not consensus to add this content, and the wikilinks to insurrection, sedition, domestic terrorism, burning of Washington, and coup d'état seem excessive for the Lead of top-level biography. This context makes some of the comments here less than logical. User:Levivich is aware that there was no consensus to add "coup d'etat" to the Lead, as he had voted at Talk:Donald_Trump#Coup_d'etat_attempt, yet he is here criticizing Ojective3000 and Mandruss. User:MONGO cites the fact that this is a high profile BLP as reason to warn O3000, while ignoring that O3000 was the one reverting the contentious content out of the BLP. I see at least two other users here criticizing O3000 who regularly complain about how other editors use recent news to stack the articles of conservative figures with negative information. I can see why User:Black Kite might be cynical, but I think it could be chalked up to our tendency to make snap judgements without looking at context. ~ Awilley ( talk) 19:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
"Sometimes, even when you're right, you need to step back and leave it to someone else. The language Mandruss removed was overly strong and UNDUE, but not the sort of obviously defamatory material whose removal justifies ignoring a 1RR restriction."I would point out that Objective3000 was that "someone else". There was no 1RR violation, as O3000 had not made any other edits to the article in the preceding week or following days.
As the Eagles sang: “You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave" I was disappointed to see @
CaptainEek: and @
Power~enwiki: say I threw a fit
and made a threat of retirement
. I made no threat and had no fit. I simply put a retired template on my UTP and archived the rest so folks would know not to post. I made no suggestion of retirement in advance and no statement of my reasons. That is, no parting shot. I also decided not to file an appeal. Can’t one even quietly retire without nasty comments? I am also disappointed that @
Levivich: would point to a year-old AE discussion claiming it was prior evidence of me tag-teaming. In fact, SashiRolls made a fallacious claim that five editors were tag-teaming and the result was an indef AP2 TBan for SashiRolls. Attacks against DS editors are extremely common, as can be seen by perusing the drama boards.
Now, as to the situation. DS articles absolutely must have additional restrictions. They are inundated with five-minute old, undigested news (as was the case here), fringe theories, vandalism, and white supremacists, et. al. from the Reddit site de jour spreading hate. But, these restrictions create a very difficult editing environment. Witness the resulting AP2 editor attrition from sanctions here. When six new editors appear from an off-Wiki site pushing the same POV (real tag-teaming), editors run up against 1RR very quickly. It is commonplace for an editor to request another editor make a revert to avoid a 1RR sanction. It is common to suggest a self-rvt after an accidental or iffy edit and then re-revert. I have even seen admins request reverts from other editors. (Most admins are smart enough to avoid DS articles entirely.) Further, DS rules differ by page and keep changing. That’s not a complaint. It’s a necessity.
I’ve talked to the problem. I don’t know the solution. I would suggest that RECENTISM in some form become a guideline instead of an essay. In this case, repeated attempts were made to add contentious “breaking news” to the lead of a highly viewed BLP with no consensus and no corresponding text in the body. The edit I reverted included the words insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism in a BLP about some guy named Donald. Personally, I agree with the words – but strongly believe this requires ATP discussion and some time to pass. Frankly, this was verging on a vandalism exception, which I think should nullify Mandruss’ warning. My attempt was to deescalate a situation, guide discussion to the ATP, and remove the BLP problem as quickly as possible. We must have a way to stop news from ending up in a BLP that is so new the ink is still wet.
As my retirement has been mentioned, I must say that my retirement was triggered by the sanction as a vague, logged warning along such lines makes editing in DS areas untenable. However, I also need the time IRL. So, reversal of the warning does not mean return. Not that my minor efforts matter to the project. But, I had a totally clean 13 year record, despite spending most of my time in highly controversial articles sprinkled with land mines (which usually results in acquiring some less than friendly coworkers) and would like that record back. I also think such sanctions have a chilling effect not helpful to the DS editing environment. We already walk on egg shells. Let us not weaponize them.
I would like to thank the three admins and Mandruss who have spoken out in my favor here, and apologize for the length. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 16:54, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
O3000 has now told us that Awilley's premise for this thread ... was based on an unwarranted inference. No, Awilley was correct. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 18:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
After Mandruss explicitly refused to self-revert, Objective3000 proposed to them to "Self-rvt and I’ll rvt." Mandruss then self-reverted ( diff), followed by Objective3000 reverting back a mere 2 minutes later ( diff). Needless to say, I consider that to be inappropriate, enough to deem noting it in the log to be worthwhile. Note that my log entry ( diff) noted Awilley's objection (which, honestly, I still don't really understand) as well as there being mitigating circumstances of an extraordinary nature (pertaining to the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol). Finally, my AE report closure ( diff), which reiterated all of that, also praised both Mandruss and Objective3000 for their long-term high-quality work at the AP2 topic area. I don't at all mind giving this particular violation a pass (makes sense), but to conclude that it wasn't actually a violation, that I cannot abide. Beyond all of that, I was sorry and quite shocked to learn that Objective3000 has retired over this. That's a serious loss to the project. My closing summary at the AE report stressed that I didn't intend for the warning to serve as a "blemish" on their "record," but I guess that wasn't enough. El_C 02:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
it is rare that we actually see tag teaming, but this seems a pretty clear case of it. Now, if other Committee members end up subscribing instead to your interpretation of it being only a
debatable alleged violation, well, that would surprise me, but I will of course respect that finding. In a pragmatic sense, it would actually probably be better for the project if the Committee were to recommend for me to rescind the warnings, notwithstanding that I'd still consider that to be a logic and policy fail. Because then, Objective3000 may come out of retirement and Mandruss may end their wikibreak early. Which, hey, to me that's better than some abstract notion of principles.
I think PackMecEng's observation pretty much nails it, Awilley. Beyond that, I echo what others have argued before: that you tend to overrely on sanction customization, which, at times, appears to be somewhat esoteric in nature and unclear, or otherwise less than consistent( diff). I vaguely remember, for example, a custom "no personal comments" sanction of his running into difficulties, I think because other admins couldn't figure out how to correctly enforce it. And don't get me wrong, I've indulged in some spectacular failures of custom AE sanctions. But the point is that I moved on from that (for years and years). Finally, on the whole CR versus EBRD matter, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that, while I had authored the WP:CRP supplementary page as a point of reference (at the request of Coffee), I was never involved in the formulation of it as a sanction. I actually don't even know how it came about, so if anyone does, please enlighten me. Now, imagine if the Committee was, somehow, prompted to take a close look into the whole CR versus EBRD realm of sanctions that it, itself, authorizes? Ooh, what do you say, incoming Committee? Kitty nudge? El_C 19:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it took me this long (pride? hurt feelings?) —and first and foremost, I apologize to both Mandruss and Objective3000, for this lengthy delay, which reflects poorly on me— but I have now added an addendum to the log entry ( diff), which, as mentioned there, I hope will serve to quell any further tension. As I also note in this addendum, if there is anything else I can say or do to better facilitate peace and harmony, please do not hesitate to let me know. Thanks, everyone, for all your patience, and sorry that my response to this challenge has been less than ideal. El_C 19:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
This was extremely blatant tag-team editing, and I don't think a threat of retirement is a good reason to revoke the justified note they were "cautioned against circumventing edit restrictions". power~enwiki ( π, ν) 02:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I fail to see how such a warning could be NOT a blemish on one's record. But who knows, here where up is down, yellow is purple, and a lone admin can issue a logged warning against serious opposition from both admins and non, while citing nothing written but an obscure essay. I'm not smart enough to understand this. ― Mandruss ☎ 03:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
[insert one sleep period]
I think a good unwritten rule would be: When an editor has established a long history of conscientious good faith behavior, they have earned the benefit of the doubt and should not receive a sanction for a good faith mistake. Not even a logged warning. Such contributors should not be victims of the crazy, convoluted body of scattered, incohesive rules that our revered system of crowdsourced self-governance created and has proven utterly incapable of addressing. Sanctions should be reserved for bad faith, since they affect the editor's reputation and may contribute to future sanctions in a sort of snowball effect. This should be intuitive to any experienced editor possessing any sense of fairness.
A logged warning clearly implies fault, and there is no fault in a human mistake. A logged warning should not be a mechanism for clarification, as it has been used by El_C in this case. If the rules prevented El_C from filing an ARCA request, the rules seriously need changing. If ARCA had provided clarification for future reference without implying fault on O3000's part, I don't think he would have retired.
The appropriate action at this stage is:
― Mandruss ☎ 14:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Jeppiz: Oh boy.
Mandruss had started to feel 'above the law'Unsupported by evidence or other editors (except perhaps Tataral, and he hasn't said that).
I had notified Mandruss about improper talk page behaviourYou took a remarkably one-sided view of that little hatting skirmish. SPECIFICO was equally at fault there, and he acted first, but you "notified" only me. I've given this some thought and concluded that my recent well-founded public criticism of you here likely earned me a place on your shit list that caused you to read that situation in SPECIFICO's favor, giving him a pass. When I correctly informed you about your misuse of a warning template, [17] I expect that only moved me higher on your list and exacerbated the situation. I must be more careful about whose toes I correctly step on. Happy to discuss that with you at my UTP, but I don't think this is the time or place to dissect that "incident" further.
going against discretionary sanctions just because they felt they could- Clear misrepresentation, again calling into question your overall objectivity in the matter. I "went against discretionary sanctions" because I didn't understand how they applied in that case, and I think I've made this abundantly clear. I did not consciously go against discretionary sanctions, nor would I. Nobody is more careful about following the rules, and I make a concerted effort to understand them.
ignoring two different users' appeal to self-revertRight, neither of whom cited the passage from WP:EW that El_C quoted in the AE complaint. Editors often get such "appeal to self-revert" wrong. I looked at the both the content of the criticisms and the usernames of the editors making them, and I made a judgment call that I was more likely right than wrong, which turned out to be incorrect, and I decided to send this to AE. I did not "dare" you to go to AE. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that ultimately turning out to be wrong does not prove bad faith, and Mandruss's bad faith is how you have spun this entire episode.
the impression of feeling that normal rules don't apply to themAll things considered, an entirely unjustified and unfair assessment in my opinion.
(I recognize in good faith that Mandruss may only be talking about Objective3000, not themselves)- Exactly, and that's crystal clear given that I requested a removal of O3000's warning, not mine.
I don't get how you felt it was appropriate to use this ARCA request about O3000's warning to take further swipes at me. I appreciate the compliments sprinkled throughout your distortions and unfounded criticisms, but that doesn't excuse them in my view. ― Mandruss ☎ 17:21, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
SPECIFICO commented about Awilley: ...and given Awilley's history of supervoting in various venues and with respect to various colleagues, I just think the appearance is obvious to those familiar with his history.
I can't let that go without comment. First, I'm "familiar with his history" and do not share SPECIFICO's view. And SPECIFICO has a habit of asserting widespread support for his views and presuming to speak for others to bolster his arguments. I have asked him on at least three separate occasions, spanning perhaps three years, to speak only for himself. I would ask him to modify his comment accordingly; if he declines to do so, I trust that readers will take that part of his comment for what it is. ―
Mandruss
☎ 21:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Except in cases where it doesn't really matter (this was not such a case), I will never self-revert merely because an editor demands that I do so, unless they are one of the few editors high enough on my respect list that I would defer to their judgment. I'm more than capable of deference, but not with just any editor. Or any two editors. It's not a vote, and two editors can easily be wrong at the same time, especially when you consider that ulterior motives are sometimes present in these things. I doubt Jeppiz would blindly comply with a demand to self-revert if it didn't seem like a legitimate demand to Jeppiz. I doubt many competent editors would, particularly at that article. There is more at stake at that article than "going along to get along".
Other editors will need to show me something that makes it clear I'm in violation of the rules; that was not done until we got to AE, and not done by Jeppiz.
In my mind, my error was failing to have mastered the rules, not failing to blindly submit to the demand of two random editors. I don't expect my mind to be changed on that.
As I said at AE and here, I won't dispute my warning. But I will not have my integrity impugned without evidence. ― Mandruss ☎ 15:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@
Levivich: you should be considering the viewpoints of all editors
– I did consider these editors' viewpoints. As I said above, I looked at the both the content of the criticisms and the usernames of the editors making them, and I made a judgment call that I was more likely right than wrong, which turned out to be incorrect, and I decided to send this to AE.
Considering viewpoints does not mean blindly complying when you disagree with them. ―
Mandruss
☎ 17:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm disappointed and alarmed at
Jeppiz's continued attacks and failure to fairly evaluate what went on at my UTP. It's
right here for anyone to review. I responded to the initial demand, If you are suggesting that this edit and this edit are the same, I suggest you take a closer look. They differ by 2,219 bytes if I'm not mistaken.
It's eminently clear from that comment that I was under the impression that the edits needed to be the same content to be a violation. (Is
Jeppiz suggesting that I was feigning ignorance at that point? For what purpose?) The constructive response would've been something like what El_C said at AE: reverts need not be "identical" to count as such.
WP:EW is quite clear on this:
Nothing like that was said at my UTP; if it had been, I would have immediately self-reverted. Instead, off we went to AE. Again, Jeppiz is claiming that being shown to be wrong at AE shows bad faith before AE. That is simply wrong on multiple levels, including logic and ethics, and I will NEVER accept it. If the community feels that means I should be banned from
Donald Trump, fine, and then I'll be considering my own retirement even more seriously than I ever have in the past. Perhaps it's time to finally put this madness behind me and find a more rewarding hobby. ―
Mandruss
☎ 17:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period
(bold is my emphasis).
@
SPECIFICO: I feel he also has a serious WP:OWN ownership attitude that has been very counterproductive and obstructive.
I feel that's a serious accusation and should not be made in support of a sanction proposal without evidence. If that's allowed, I have some feelings about you that might warrant a sanction. ―
Mandruss
☎ 19:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@ SPECIFICO: And in case it wasn't obvious, I'm respectfully asking you to strike. ― Mandruss ☎ 19:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
William Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 1 ― Mandruss ☎ 21:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
I had commented at the WP:AE case as an uninvolved admin and had made clear my distaste for the request for a sanction. El_C was technically correct but it is very undesirable to sanction people (yes, a logged warning is a sanction) when the incident is trivial and involves an issue where they are right. Their opponents managed to press the right buttons but they were blatantly wrong regarding what should happen in the article (they were padding the lead with not-news violations, no analysis by secondary sources, and nothing in the body of the article). Objective3000 made an honest statement (that Mandruss should self-revert to remove the technical problem so Objective3000 could repeat their edit)—that reflects how all topics under discretionary sanctions are handled. The rules of the game are known by all the participants and Objective3000's only mistake was to speak out loud. Furthermore, Objective3000 made a comment about their intentions whereas the issue (tag teaming) had already been implemented by their opponents—opponent 1 had inserted the padding; Mandruss reverted it; opponent 2 repeated the first edit after cutting out some of the excess. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Q: Does Awilley actually have standing to file this amendment request? I thought that third-party appeals were not allowed. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 05:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
This ARCA seems to be out of process?
WP:AC/DS#sanctions.appeals: Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction.
This is not a new issue. A little less than a year ago, O3000's "tag teaming" with other editors (not Mandruss) was raised in an AE report (against another editor: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive261#SashiRolls, see, e.g., my statement and Pudeo's and also discussion on Pudeo's talk page at User talk:Pudeo#Personal attack). (I believe there were other related discussions but I don't remember where they are.) It was clear to me from those discussions that O3000 and others did not believe that planned or coordinated reverting (I'm not sure how else to phrase it) was tag team editing or a policy violation. I think O3000 left those discussions with the belief that his understanding of policy w/r/t "tag teaming" was correct—a reasonable belief given that nobody was sanctioned for it. I think this might help explain why O3000 would think there was nothing wrong with his actions and why he's taking this so hard.
So, although this does appear to be a third-party appeal, it might help prevent this sort of misunderstanding from happening in the future if Arbcom, or somebody, clarified "tag teaming" and edit warring policy, e.g. whether "self-revert and I'll revert" is OK or not. I'll also echo that O3000 wasn't the only editor who repeated another editor's edits: there is also the editor who reinstated a reverted bold edit. I think it's also an open question whether reinstating-after-revert is "tag teaming" (even when there isn't explicit on-wiki coordination).
These questions matter for any page under 1RR (and frankly are unevenly enforced by admins), so Arbcom could help by clarifying what is and is not "tag teaming" at least for DS 1RR restrictions. Levivich harass/ hound 09:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I think O3000 left those discussions with the belief that his understanding of policy w/r/t "tag teaming" was correct—a reasonable belief given that nobody was sanctioned for it.Levivich harass/ hound 17:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Evidence presented seems to clearly indicate that this was tag teaming on one of our most viewed pages, a BLP to boot and the warning applied was not only of the most gentle of ones, but also one of the most necessary, considering the BLP in question in particular.-- MONGO ( talk) 09:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Not really sure what Awilley hopes to accomplish by dragging my earnest comment in the mud and misattributing my meaning [19] but since he had the decency to ping. Not really sure why Awilley even bothered to bring my comment up...nobody gives a rats arse what I think anyway. Did I notice they removed a questionable edit...yes, I did indeed. Does that grant them a free pass or special consideration/exemption? In my opinion, No. Is this because this is a prominent BLP...maybe. So what? Everyone have a group hug and sing kumbaya now.-- MONGO ( talk) 20:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
As the editor who made the original enforcement request, I wish to acknowledge both
El_C and
Awilley for their thoughtful contributions. I felt El C made a balanced call in issuing a warning but no block to
Mandruss and
Objective3000. I also think Awilley has made a balanced request that the warning stays for Mandruss but it dropped for Objective3000. It's not for me to comment on that decision. My concern when filing the request was that Mandruss had started to feel 'above the law', I wish to emphasize that Mandruss has made a positive contribution to Wikipedia and I wish they continue their good work. However, my request wasn't based on a single incident. The day before the policy violation, I had notified Mandruss about improper talk page behaviour for (admittedly) hatting a talk page comment by a third user
[20] just because a different user had hatted theirs; I hoped a UTP discussion would be enough.
The day after, when Mandruss ignored the discretionary sanctions, I again took it to their talk page, as did a third user. Mandruss themselves more or less challenged us to go to AE ("I am not going to self-revert. With great difficulty I have stopped short of 3RR vio. If you wish to file at AE, do as you must. One of us would learn something, and learning is never a bad thing.")
[21]. This combination of hatting a third user just because they felt they could, going against discretionary sanctions just because they felt they could, ignoring two different users' appeal to self-revert and even daring us to go to AE combined to give the impression of feeling that normal rules don't apply to them. When I see Mandruss arguing here (I recognize in good faith that Mandruss may only be talking about Objective3000, not themselves) "When an editor has established a long history of conscientious good faith behaviour, they have earned the benefit of the doubt and should not receive a sanction for a good faith mistake. Not even a logged warning.", I see the same problem that led me to file the request, the belief that 'some editors are more equal than others'.
Mandruss is a diligent editor whose net contribution is overwhelmingly positive; I hope that they stay. On a general level, I don't believe in special treatment and think the policy Mandruss suggests of letting more experienced editors off for the same behaviour that newcomers would be punished for would set a bad precedent with wider implications than this case.
Jeppiz (
talk) 16:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors will need to show me something that makes it clear I'm in violation of the rules; that was not done until we got to AE, and not done by Jeppiz.This is not true; in my effort to solve the situation at Mandruss TP, I explicitly referred to the rules, even quoted the discretionary sanctions [22]. I won't stand for Mandruss trying to claim something else. Mandruss's entire last contribution [23] pushes the limits of WP:AGF when they claim they were unaware. Accepting that would require overlooking that:
There have been many discussions in scattered venues about the need to reevaluate and reform DS and enforcement in American Politics. A tiny fraction of our Admin corps volunteer their time and attention and emotional involvement to the effort. The burden on them, including the ones involved in this case, is beyond what anyone could reasonably be expected to fulfil in a consistent and effective manner. So along with lots of good work, we also have inconsistencies, errors, and omissions.
As has been acknowledged, this appeal is out of process. That's not a good thing except in an urgent situation unlike this one. I hope and expect that Arbcom will address the growing concern about DS and enforcement in general by initiating an orderly and systematic review and a discussion of its options to improve the entire system.
The nature of DS is that it's discretionary. El C, as one of the most active volunteers in the area, makes lots of good faith judgments nearly continually, and I see nothing to be gained by validating Awilley's second guess of an action that was clearly within El C's authority. For the avoidance of doubt, if Mandruss had done the right thing and self-reverted when asked, there were several editors, including myself, who (without any prompting) would have independently removed the offending content. Despite that, to repeat, this "appeal" is out of process and should be declined. It's further complicated by Awilley's possibly animus toward El C, who was one of the Admins and experienced editors who opposed Awilley's unilateral replacement of "consensus required" with his bespoke "24-hour BRD" sanction. Not to accuse Awilley of such motivation, but the background should have been disclosed in this filing.
SPECIFICO
talk 17:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@
El C: I do not think anyone would suggest that you resent Awilley's actions. The appearance of animus would be in the other direction only. It is more than unusual to ask Arbcom to overturn so routine a discretionary action, and given Awilley's history of supervoting in various venues and with respect to various colleagues, I just think the appearance is obvious to those familiar with his history. Best practices is to avoid any such possible appearance -- and again, the ARCA request can be considered solely on its merits. Thanks for your note. I have never seen you personalize or improperly involve yourself in any Admin action.
SPECIFICO
talk 19:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
O3000 has now told us that Awilley's premise for this thread Statement by Awilley - This incident is so inconsequential that normally I would ignore it, but as one of the parties has found it unfair enough to retire
was based on an unwarranted inference unrelated to what 03000 actually posted on his talk page. So I hope this extraordinary un-warning request can be set aside. The AE warning does nothing to diminish O3000's reputation or his excellent, collaborative editorial contributions, and it was clearly explained by El C and within his discretion.
I am distressed to see Mandruss' recent remarks here. Mandruss is by far the most active editor on the Donald Trump article and talk pages, at 22% of article and 27% of article talk page participation. Those are staggering figures of concentration for so active and widely edited pages. He has done lots of useful work -- more on housekeeping than article content, IMO, which is not his forte. He knows I appreciate his contributions, even to the extent that I urged him to run for Arbcom last fall. However, I feel he also has a serious WP:OWN ownership attitude that has been very counterproductive and obstructive. His views often prevail out of his sheer persistence and willingness to pursue his views to the point that others disengage. He said on his talk page that he's willing to learn from the experience of this AE complaint, and I think a page block of a month or so might help give him the breathing room to return refreshed and ready to collaborate. SPECIFICO talk 18:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
When I posted OWN above, I felt -- evidently incorrectly -- that Mandruss's statements and behavior documented in this ARCA matter supported my interpretation that he behaves as if from a privileged position in that article of the kind referened in OWN. But I hear several editors telling me I should have provided diffs in my section, so I'll provide a few I can quickly locate. In this AE matter, the problem was created bu Mandruss' refusal to self-revert after two editors brought his violation to his attention. As he says in his section on this page, Mandruss feels he can choose to deprecate the concerns of editors he doesn't know and respect, to wit the two who informed him of his violation. I think that's not our standard. Is the dominant editor on a page privileged to reject non-preferred editors out of hand? Then we have Mandruss' trying to tell other experienced editors what to do,
e.g. here, following @
Valjean: to his talk page with what I consider an inappropriate tone of privilege and an expectation of control. There are the recent discussions of "coup attempt. Note that this thread does not concern placing such text in the lead, which was the subject of a November discussion, and that it was about an edit and reference that pre-dated the attack on the Capitol. See
this thread, including the hatted portion. In an unrelated discussion, both as to placement RS verification and WEIGHT, there had been previous attempts to put "coup" in the lead and back in November. See Mandruss in this thread
with different sourcing and facts, about content that I considered UNDUE at the time.
So what I see here is an editor who is the most active presence on the page, who has not taken the responsibility to ensure he understands the page restrictions. And in the recent "coup d'etat" discussion in the first link above, he reverts it citing a nonexistent consensus to omit, presumably based on the inconclusive lead text discussion from months ago, giving no substantive reason other than his personal assertion of "consensus". He then continues to oppose the edit at some length before finally
coming to my talk page and asking how he can see the cited Washington Post article, becuase he doesn't have access. It's up to him whether a WaPo subscription is worth the $26, but it's remarkable he would feel entitled to oppose text related to sourcing he has not seen. I question whether anyone can be highly active and opinionated at the AP articles without comprehensive media access across the spectrum.
So again: To me, the tone and substance of Mandruss' behavior as documented at AE and in his words on this page were, combined with his edit stats, supporting my view that he acts from a sense of privilege that I called OWN. I've provided the above in response to reactions that my view was evidence free. I may or may not be correct, but I abhor ASPERSIONS and I hope I've at least corrected that, if not convinced anyone on the merits.
SPECIFICO
talk 23:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Warnings are minimal, not a biggy to sweat over. Regardless, this case exemplifies why ArbCom needs to revoke DS/AE. I'm not here to criticize any of the actions taken by individual admins or arbs; rather, I would like for ArbCom to look closer at the DS/AE monster that we've had to deal with in recent years. If behavioral disruption was the only issue, a simple admin action would have resolved the problem. If another admin felt the remedy was too severe or undeserved, then a discussion between the two would have likely led to a compromise instead of wasting valuable time here making this into a complicated case. I'm also not taking a position relative to any of the named editors in this case. I admit that I am biased against DS/AE because of what I perceive to be abuse/ POV creep and what has happened to me - not that it has happened in this case. Houston, we have a problem. Atsme 💬 📧 17:40, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
It's baffling that this is even up for re-discussion. The on-Wiki communications between the two editors and reversions in tandem were specifically meant to do a technical end run around WP:DS limits on reversions. Had any other user engaged in this behavior, it would've led to a sanction, but favoritism and bias lead not only to a ridiculously soft warning at WP:AE, but admins actively trying to overturn even that empty warning. The standards for conduct on Wikipedia are slipping towards being entirely meaningless for a small circle of editors, including Objective3000 and Mandruss, who've been editing for a sufficient period of time are friendly with the right parties. These political games and bending of the rules are what turns people away from the site. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 21:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Against my better judgment, I'm editing ARCA for the first time, not because I have a strong opinion about this particular case but because I've been thinking about sock/meat puppetry a lot lately and find the way our WP:MEAT policy is being interpreted here curious.
My understanding of tag teaming, which is a variety of meat puppetry, is that it's not when one person who already edits an article in good faith tries to deescalate a situation by offering to take ownership of an edit (one which they may well have made anyway) from someone else who already edits the article in good faith.
If Mandruss went to the talk page instead of editing again and said "this edit should be reverted because XYZ, but I can't," and O3000 saw that and said "ok, I'll do it," would we still be talking about meat puppetry? It seems like standard coordination on a talk page -- the sort that's especially necessary when there are article-level restrictions. If the difference has to do only with the way O3000 phrased it rather than any practical or intentional difference, I'm not sure that's a road we want to go down. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:48, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree in thinking that O3000 was acting in good faith here. Let's face it, if another editor had reverted Mandruss's edit and O3000 had reverted back, there would be no issue here. The really ironic thing is that, looking above, there are some more right-leaning editors criticising O3000 here despite the fact that they removed excessive negative information from the lead of Trump's article. If I was a cynic, I'd say that they're basing their comments on who did the reverting rather than the actual circumstances and specific content. Black Kite (talk) 22:47, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@ CaptainEek: Your comment implies that O3000 by posting a "retired" template 'threw a fit' and 'threw his toys out of the pram' (venerable Wikipedia clichés that do no credit to your sense of style). That's shameful in my opinion. If you didn't intend that implication, please take more care when you write.
@
El C: You say "As for it constituting a "blemish" on their record — all Objective3000 would have to do if someone were to try to use it against them would be to quote me saying that it wasn't intended as such. Which is why I said it, in the 1st place.
" It would be a lot more useful to say it in the log, IMO. Really a lot. I know the log entry is already long, but you could have said it instead of "Sorry for the unusual length of this log entry", because, you know, what use is that?
The amount of assumption of bad faith towards Mandruss, O3000, El C, admins in general, and the entirety of Wikipedia in Wikieditor19920's comment above leaves a bad taste. Everybody can comment here, no doubt, and so we get some low-water marks. Unless an arb or clerk feels like drawing the line somewhere? Bishonen | tålk 23:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC).
This is an excellent illustration of the dilemmas that will be produced by any system that provides a first-mover (or second-mover) advantage. DS is the worst of them, but even 3RR can do that, and even our basic BRD procedure. The fairness of these systems depends upon preventing one contributor maneuvering to put the other at the wrong end of the advantage. At present any POV editor who realizes how they work can sometimes manage to do that, unless up against an equally clever opponent. Ensuring that the encyclopedia has NPOV content should not be a game of this sort. DGG ( talk ) 17:45, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Oh for <insert deity here>'s sake, people, it was a warning! warning: NOUN 1: statement or event that indicates a possible or impending danger, problem, or other unpleasant situation.
Not a sanction nor a block nor a ban. Nothing more than a: "Please don't do this again." There is no reason to treat this as the wiki-Trial of the Century and throw any of these accusations and animosities around. I wonder if this is our version of the Bike Shed Principle; we know we can't personally do much about those <insert collective insult here> in Washington/ Sacramento/ Canberra/ wherever but we can be damned sure we'll treat the project as if lives depended on our edits. Reality check: Nobody's life depends on our edits. That editors are taking them as seriously as this discussion does is way out of whack with the reality we see around us. Chill. Go outside. Take a breath. Nobody's reputation was permanently besmirched before this mess began and it shouldn't be now.
Eggishorn
(talk)
(contrib) 19:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
This is one of the more trivial "sanctions" I've seen in AP2 enforcement, especially for what is a clear cut DS violation. The action seems well within El_C's discretion especially given the comments of the other commenting administrators. I and others have long called for a rework of the restrictions in AP2, but until that happens they ought to be enforced evenly. Mr Ernie ( talk) 15:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
I've been thinking about the first paragraph of Bishonen's statement above, and I agree with what she said there. In this ARCA, there is no serious claim that O3000 is a long-term abuser who has tried the community's patience one time too many. The range of opinions goes approximately from it having been something for which a warning was justified, to it having been something where the warning should be vacated, but in any case there is a consensus that overall O3000 has been a valued member of the community. As such, CaptainEek, I'm troubled by your language about fit throwing and toys from a pram. Although I don't want to blow it out of proportion, I would ask that you reconsider the way that you said it. Wikipedia is suffering from a coarsening of the language that editors use when speaking of one another, and from a lack of sensitivity to when an editor is genuinely and in good faith upset. I would hope that Arbitrators would seek to set a good example. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
The word "uprecedented" is often overused, but I think it applies to the current environment. People are acting in good faith, with a perceived urgency that is heightened by a political environment for which we have no templates, no past experience.
I believe the correct response here is that everybody was doing their best, and there should be no indelible consequences for any of it. IMO Newyorkbrad is exactly correct, and we should be very careful right now not to do things with lasting consequences for long-term productive members of the community who are clearly acting in good faith.
To err is human and to attribute malice virtually inescapable when it's almost impossible not to have an opinion on the content itself, as here. I am taking time out because I have PTSD and find the present real world situation almost impossible to handle, but I want to add my no-doubt superfluous $0.02 in support of an editor with whom I often disagree but whose good faith I have never had cause to doubt. Guy ( help! - typo?) 11:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction.( Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Standard provision: appeals and modifications) In this case, and in other cases where an uninvolved administrator at AE who voiced disagreement with the action taken brings us an ARCA appeal, I am inclined to disregard this provision and consider the third-party appeal. I'm willing to formalize this into our procedures if need be, but I'd prefer to wait for broader DS reform. Because this appeal was not brought by Objective3000, if we decline this appeal, the provision that "further substantive review at any forum is barred" should not apply.Objective3000 did not violate the restriction was written. However, AMPOL is a DS area, and on the whole, it was not an abuse of administrative discretion to conclude that coordination to circumvent a 1RR restriction (even if well-intentioned) is inappropriate.Previous committee decisions at ARCA have established that this committee will generally only reverse sanctions for abuse of administrative discretion, or something at that approximate level of review, absent exceptional circumstances. This is necessary because AE is designed to reduce the load on this committee – imagine if every AE sanction was appealed here – and so ArbCom acts mostly as a safety valve, not as a venue of first resort. Therefore, absent exceptional circumstances, we should not overturn this warning.Administrators should not act contrary to a clear consensus of their colleagues at AE. I don't know if the consensus in this case was clearly against the warning – a warning itself is a very light sanction. (According to Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Dismissing an enforcement request, a warning is actually not a sanction; it counts as "no action".) Overall, I don't know where I come down on this appeal. If El C downgraded this to "advice" ("Objective3000 is advised to ...") I would decline this appeal for sure. Right now, I'm inclined to decline this appeal without prejudice towards an appeal at AE or AN, but of course that strikes me as grossly excessive bureaucracy. It may be a good push to make explicit in our procedures that appeals to ArbCom via ARCA are generally assessed deferentially to the enforcing administrator (to reduce the number of appeals that are unfortunately resolved on procedural grounds), and that appeals from sanctions imposed at AE can still be appealed at AE (especially if administrators at AE were opposed to the original sanction). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Interstellarity at 19:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
It's been over five years since the ammendment to set sanctions on post-1932 American politics went in place. When we look at historical events from a distant future, we can get a better idea on how the event affected history. I am not requesting to repeal these sanctions, I am requesting that the sanction be lowered to something like 1944. It is easier to write an article on a president such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln then someone like Donald Trump or Joe Biden because the news can be too biased to get the big picture. I imagine the news was also biased back then, but we have modern historical evaluations on the event that help us to write better articles. That's how I feel about this in a nutshell. Interstellarity ( talk) 19:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
1932 really is still the beginning of contemporary US politics. It is when FDR was first elected, and FDR's policy approaches are still a political battleground in the present day. William Leuchtenburg's book In the Shadow of FDR traces FDR's influence through all the subsequent US presidents up to Obama (in the 2009 edition). I read it for a school requirement and found it enlightening. If there is good cause to restrict someone from editing about post-FDR US politics, they probably shouldn't be editing about the FDR era either. The stuff that happened then is still contentious in today's partisan battlegrounds. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A ( talk) 13:43, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
I think any cutoff year you choose will potentially be debatable. But is the current 1932 cutoff already causing problems that need to be addressed? If so, this request would be more compelling with evidence and examples of those problems. Geogene ( talk) 18:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't think I've ever processed an AP2 dispute or sanction where the locus of dispute was something that happened between 1932 and 1944 (indeed the vast majority are centred on current issues). That's not to say they don't exist, but I think I'd like to see the diffs before changing the cutoff date. Black Kite (talk) 19:07, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Echoing Black Kite to an extent, I'm eager to see what are the loci of dispute now, but I'll go further. This is incredibly broad brush and doesn't feel like a good measure at all. Having briefly looked into the morass of the case that prompted it, I'm wondering if Arbcom at the time were both rather exasperated and reluctant to issue a huge swathe of personal sanctions. Anyway, that's speculation. More to the point, I feel this measure is bad for Wikipedia. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 19:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
All sanctions (theoretically) must be recorded in the log at WP:ACDSLOG. For 2020, I see there only two articles which relate to something else than post-1990 politics: Frank Rizzo which I have protected myself (and this is the only time I remember involving AP2 for not contemporary politics, and I am not shy in imposing AE sanctions), and Three Red Banners which is probably there in error (I do not see how it is related to AP2). In any case, both articles are post-1950.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 12:33, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
I support changing this, to some date not after 1992. From a quick glance, with the one exception Ymblanter noted, the oldest topic I found discussed in the sanctions log was Vince Foster. The vast majority of American Politics issues relate to current events, but the Clintons are still regularly the subject of contentious discussion. There was a preference for a wide buffer region in the original imposition of AP2 to avoid doubt in marginal cases; I think either 1960 or 1980 would be reasonable choices. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The difference between starting in 1932 and starting in 1944 is that the period from 1932 to 1944 featured FDR and the New Deal, isolationism regarding involvement in World War II, the attempt at Supreme Court packing, the American Nazi movement and the anti-Nazi boycotts -- all of which have tendrils which connect them to current American politics. Is MAGA isolationism re-born? Will the Democrats attempt to counter Trump's Supreme Court nominations by packing the court? Is the alt-right the re-birth of an American fascist movement? What do we do about the newly powerful populist movement in Europe? How involved should the US government be in controlling the effects of capitalism? These questions are all intimately connected to what happened from 1932 to 1944, which argues against changing the starting point. 1932 does not seem to me to be an arbitrary choice, but the actual beginning of modern American politics. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 22:56, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm concerned by people stating that Interstellarity should be providing cases of 1932-1944 that this clarification would resolve. Quite the opposite - everyone else should be being required to provide cases that demonstrate that that set of years should also be covered by DS. It's supposed to cover the minimum possible to avoid issues. I actually think a good case could be made for moving it up to, say, the start of the Vietnam war, and if we're happy to have a discussion on that, that's great, but for the meantime, I'm a strong supporter. Nosebagbear ( talk) 11:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I think everyone is agreed that the cutoff of 1932 is arbitrary and that any year that the ArbCom of the time picked would necessarily be arbitrary. Any other date would also be arbitrary but need not be equally arbitrary; i.e., there may be less arbitrary dates available. It is clear from the AP2 Proposed Decision that the ArbCom of the time picked 1932 for no there reason than it was somewhere between the extremes of 1980 (too recent) and all of American history (too far back). If anything, this is a good demonstration of how the Goldilocks principle can guide rational people to suboptimal results. Neither the AP nor the AP2 cases involved anything that reached anywhere near as far back as 1932 and Ymblanter and power~enwiki have already demonstrated that the topics that AP2 sanctions have been invoked for are also recent. Beyond My Ken makes a cogent argument that there is ideological continuity of issues from the Roosevelt presidency era to issues of great controversy today but that is not a reason to keep the 1932 date. If we were to accept the continuity of ideologies argument, then the same issues that FDR faced were faced in recognizable form by his cousin Theodore and that these issues have ideological continuity all the way back to Jacksonian democracy and even to Jeffersonianism and Federalism. The committee implicitly rejected this approach since that would have turned the AP2 discretionary sanctions into American History discretionary sanctions. I think that any argument to keep the 1932 cutoff has to substantiate 1932-present as the narrowest possible range to prevent significant disruption. The record at hand does not present any evidence of this being the case. If anything, it shows that 1932 is far too broad and that this violates the principle that sanctions and restrictions should allow the greatest freedom of editing. WP:5P3 still has some purpose here, after all. The ArbCom of the time picked 1932 not through detailed inquiry of the best cutoff but through what seems like expediency and abundance of caution. The ArbCom of today has the benefit of a record that shows the 1932 date was overbroad and can pick a date that better matches the evidence shown. Looking through the sanctions log for this year and last, it is difficult to find anything even post-2000, never mind after the 1980 date the original ArbCom felt was too recent. Please consider moving the date forward significantly, to at least 1988 (the George H. W. Bush v. Michael Dukakis presidential election). This date would be a better fit for the evidence of disruption that is available and also match BMK's ideological continuity of issues argument while being closer to the idealized least restrictive option and therefore be less arbitrary than 1932. Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
At the implicit invitation of Barkeep49's request for better data and because I'm seeing dates picked based on what looks like speculation of what might or could happen, I thought it necessary to present what has happened under the current regime. Debates, however fierce, in the wider society that are not directly reflected in on-wiki disruption should not be the basis for sanctions. Therefore, the record of sanctions was searched for on-wiki disruption and correlated to the time period that the disruption was directly linked to.
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MethodologyThe Arbitration enforcement log was examined for blocks, bans, and other editor sanctions placed by administrators from 2016 to 2020 under the authority of the discretionary sanctions authorized by the Arbitration Committee as a result of the American Politics 2 arbitration case. Only restrictions placed on editors were counted, not those on articles. Each sanction as a separate action is counted separately. If an editor was given an edit restriction or topic ban, then violated that and was blocked, then returned and violated it again and was banned, those three separate events are are counted three times. If an editor was blocked or topic banned for violating AP2 restrictions based on multiple edits reported to WP:AE (including, in one notable case, 71 edits) then that one event is counted once. Community bans are not counted, even if they were related to American politics articles, because those actions are taken under the community's authority and not the committee's. ArbCom bans were included if explicitly invoked under the American Politics 2 case or subsequent motions. Warnings are not counted as sanctions, even if the DS was invoked as a basis for the warning, because warnings do not have the effect of restricting edits through the wiki software. Probations or other irregular and custom sanctions are treated as warnings and so also not counted for the same reason. Topic bans lifted upon appeal are not counted as sanctions. Topic bans that resulted in a block but which were lifted on appeal were counted as a sanction if the block took place before the ban was lifted. There were a small number of users blocked, unblocked, and reblocked under these sanctions. If the individual blocks were triggered by different edits or there were "new" edits that were significant evidence for further sanctions, then those were considered separate events. Rejected appeals are not counted as separate sanctions. The time periods are divided by Presidential administration to break the 88 year time period covered by these discretionary sanctions into comprehensible time periods. The time period a sanction was assigned to is based on the edit or edits triggering sanctions. This results the an apparent anomaly that edits related to, e.g., Trump's 2016 presidential election campaign are counted under the "Obama" row and not the "Trump" row. This is inevitable given that each election cycle lasts at least 2 years and there are multiple contestants. Unless clearly otherwise indicated, edits concerning events that took place during the short January lame duck period were counted as sanctions under the following administration for clarity and because politics during this time period are almost entirely concerned with the incoming presidency and not the outgoing one. FDR's presidency was divided into pre-war and war years due to its length and the amendment request above. Edits triggering sanctions that were to articles not about events (e.g., biographical articles, places, etc.) were treated as follows: If there was a source associated with the edit (either adding or removing) then the date of that source was used to categorize the edit. If the edit was not linked to a source or the source did not have a date then any identifiable event that the edit might have been connected to (e.g., the arrest of a person) was used to categorize the edit. If there was no dated source or identifiable event, then the date of the edit was used to categorize the edit on the basis that edits on political topics are more likely to be triggered by contemporary media coverage than historical coverage. The data was compiled in a Google Sheets document available here. ResultsThe editing restrictions, blocks, and bans placed under AP2 restrictions since 2016 greatly favor the 2016-present time period and there is almost no record of AP2 sanctions for events prior to 1993.
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Of the total 248 discretionary sanctions placed in the 4 years since they were authorized under the current ArbCom remedies , 240 or 96.7% were for edits concerning events after 2016. The almost complete lack of sanctions for events in the time period from 1932 to 1988 shows that the current remedies are not currently narrowly-tailored to the actual disruption experienced on this site. Speculation that sanctions need to encompass the period before 1988 are not supported by the evidence of disruption reported. Although the methodology is believed sound, discrepancies would not change that the evidence is very clear. Even if there were massive errors in time period categorization, the evidence of disruption is clustered is so tightly to time periods after 2009 that there can be no rational argument that sanctions have been invoked to curtail actual disruption for fully 86% of the time period currently covered by the DS regime. Although page protections and similar page-level invocations of the authority granted under AP2 was not explicitly tallied, cursory investigation did not disclose results which differed significantly from the results of the editor-level sanctions and so has not been worth the time to compile. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:44, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I have to admit some confusion regarding the motions below. From my reading, it appears that two almost-exclusive motions have possibly passed, which probably means I'm interpreting the preferential votes incorrectly. Perhaps a simple form of ranked preference voting could be added? e.g., 4,3,1,2 (meaning first preference is for the 4th motion below, etc...) (This example isn't my preference or a suggestion, I just rolled a D4. Yes, I'm that geeky). I think if I'm confused, I might not be the only one. Thanks in advance. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I was one of the drafting arbs for this case and can answer what was going through our heads at the time. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 20:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
In short, I concur with Nosebagbear on burden, and with so many others here in having concerns about how sweeping these DS have been. In detail, I think this should be narrowed to 1960 onward (so it starts with JFK's presidential election campaign – there's always going to be fringe conspiracy-theory nonsense about JFK), or to an even later date, maybe starting with 1988 (George H. W. Bush's campaign), but start no later than 1992 (Bill Clinton; the Clintons are still the subject of a lot of fringe conspiracy-theory nonsense themselves). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:58, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't comment, but some of the arb comments below seem like speculation to me. Rather than guess what years are troublesome, why not look at WP:AELOG? There's years of knowledge of how DS is actually used (minus the intimidation of templates) in that log - practically everything one needs not just for larger DS reform, but also to make evidence-based determinations in small requests like this.
At a skim, I see no page restrictions based inherently on 20th century politics. Too lazy to check the editor sanctions but I'm guessing same applies there. 1980s or even up to the Clinton era makes sense to me. It can always be changed back if this turns out to have been too restrictive. Guerillero was there a particular reason for 1932? The PD doesn't give much insight. ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 14:29, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I am not seeing any problem with 1932. If there is no disruption between 1932 and, say, 1960, then there will be no enforcement. So why take an arrow out of Admins' quiver for 1932-1960 in case it's ever needed? Bigger picture I am not convinced the current setup is worth the trouble in American Politics. Arbcom principles are basically WP policy that Admins can enforce regardless of DS. The page restrictions in AP add little or nothing. SPECIFICO talk 00:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Katie, on 1933ff articles with no problem, I don't see that there are page restrictions or extra notices. For example, [27] SPECIFICO talk 15:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
To get to this noticeboard and create this much discussion; seems to me that a serious problem with the current arbitrary date being any more problematic than a new arbitrary date need be detailed. And, with all due respect to DGG, I won’t believe that Jan. 20 will mark a milestone in ending the current political millstones until that occurs. O3000 ( talk) 01:38, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I'd support 1992 per Egg's data. "Anybody can edit"/"not a bureaucracy" should be the default position. Any restrictions on that should be only as broad as necessary. The data shows that before 1992 is not necessary, as there has only been one case prior to 1992, out of 248 total. Levivich harass/ hound 03:17, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
It would be better for the committee to decide this here and now by motion than to take up the editor time required for an RFC. If the range of options are 1960, 1980, or 1992, I submit that it won't make a big difference which date the committee picks. If the community disagrees with the committee's decision, someone can start an RFC to overturn it. But if the committee picks a new date and everyone is fine with it, it'll save a bunch of editors a bunch of time. Setting the scope of DS is a core function that editors elect arbs to perform, so I don't think it's a stretch to say the community would trust Arbcom to change the AP2 start date without requiring an RFC. Levivich harass/ hound 04:36, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I think pushing it back to 1960 makes the most sense. Keeping it at 1960 rather than 1980 ensures that Vietnam and Watergate would remain under the scope, among other topics. 1980 would be the furthest I would go, because anything later would omit the Reagan years, which have always been a point of controversy. -- Calidum 15:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
We should be cautious about changing the date too much. It's important to consider that, just because recent editing history may show a narrower, more recent, focus to disputes, that doesn't mean that users won't find reasons to dispute about earlier history as events unfold in the near future. There is, in particular, the likelihood of disputes over whether or not Trump represents a short-term phenomenon, or whether he is the culmination of decades of political trends. Does it go back to Nixon's southern strategy? To the Red Scare? To Jim Crow? En-Wiki faces a particular challenge in that there is a significant political movement based upon deliberate falsification of reality. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 18:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
While I definitely think the date could be changed, I'd be cautious about relying exclusively on data about existing disruption or sanctions; one thing to worry about is that if the cut-off is too recent, users topic-banned or restricted in the AP2 area might just shift to disrupting articles somewhat earlier in the timeline. Also, having the restrictions be "intuitive" is absolutely valuable to both editors and administrators - they should be able to guess at a glance whether something falls under it. Based on this I strenuously oppose 1988, which is utterly arbitrary and has no special meaning or relevance to the topic area - if we're going to change the scope, 1980 is a much more significant date and will be far more intuitive. The restriction shouldn't be drastically broader than necessary, sure; but it should also be logical and shouldn't leave things outside its scope that are plainly connected in a single topic area. -- Aquillion ( talk) 15:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
From Eggishorn's analysis, 1992 is the issue and almost nothing before that is causing a problem. I almost think it could be 2000 with only a very few concerns before that. And, wow. That is an amazing look at American politics. Someone needs to write a scholarly paper using that analysis. —valereee ( talk) 21:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
ArbCom, grab the bull by the horns, and eliminate DS/AE altogether. It doesn't work - it opens the door to WP:POV creep, and there's really nothing that happens in a controversial topic area that an admin cannot handle normally to stop disruption. All DS/AE does is make it more difficult to reverse a bad judgment call - not saying all are bad judgment calls but I do believe POV creep is an issue. Let the admins do their job normally - if one of them misjudges, another admin will let them know and a compromise can be worked out less any wheel warring. Unilateral actions based on an admins sole discretion has created animosity, confusion, has cost us good editors, solves nothing, and wastes our time as we're seeing here now. That's my inflated nickel's worth, and yes, I'm biased because of what has happened to me. Atsme 💬 📧 19:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
1992 seems to be an entirely appropriate cutoff to me. It's not as if we can't go back and adjust it (or apply existing administrative tools) if a bunch of issues suddenly bubble up around Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. BD2412 T 21:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm content with whatever cutoff year yas choose. Just be sure to let me know, what that new cutoff year is. GoodDay ( talk) 21:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I think that what makes a few topics particularly and intractably contentious is when there when there is a current real-world contest on where persons from one side feel that their side can gain or lose based on what's in the related Wikipedia article. Also where enough English Wikipedia editors are motivated to that level. The next consideration is that measures such as this should only be as broad as needed. Besides a chilling effect, like with other Wikipedia mechanisms, tools designed to avoid warfare often becomes tools OF warfare. Regarding American politics, the core of the battle is elections and current specific hotly debated items and culture wars. By that criteria, I think that moving it up to 1980 would still encompass the particularly and intractably contentious areas. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 14:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
As someone who worked on and voted on the existing remedy, I can tell you why I argued for this date specifically -- so that the entirety of Social Security would be covered. It was not a date picked out of thin air; while most of the New Deal is not a major issue in the modern climate, at the time (and in the years preceding the decision) proposals on the reform of Social Security were a fairly big deal, and the impending exhaustion of the trust fund in the next couple years might bring it back up again. I haven't been nearly active enough lately to offer anything beyond this historical "What was arbcom thinking?" footnote, though! Courcelles ( talk) 01:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1988 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1988 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
In Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)"), the Arbitration Committee authorized standard discretionary sanctions for "all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people". The Committee is now considering amending the 1932 cutoff date, and invites the community to hold an advisory RfC regarding what change, if any, should be made to it.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1980 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1980 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1992 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1992 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Enacted - Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 22:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 110 | ← | Archive 115 | Archive 116 | Archive 117 | Archive 118 | Archive 119 | Archive 120 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by The Rambling Man at 10:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Two years ago I was topic-banned from commenting on DYK (other than on my now defunct errors page) as a result of a number of issues with my approach and generally poor manner of expressing disappointment over my perception of the quality (or lack) of many hooks appearing on the main page. A year later that TBAN was adjusted such that I could review hooks if explicitly invited to do so. Another year has passed, during which I focused almost exclusively on content creation. Indeed, a third place in the WikiCup was accompanied by 13 new featured articles and 44 new good articles. So I'm honestly thrilled that I've found my mojo once again, why I started here 15 years ago: article creation/improvement and taking them all the way to the best I can achieve. Enabling me to nominate these articles for DYK would be really good, not for WikiCup points per se, but just to allow the improved articles the exposure I think the hard work I put into them deserves.
I won the
April/May GAN review drive with 105 reviews in two months. and I would challenge anyone to see if they can find a review which is sub-par. I believe strongly that the main page content should be as good as it can be, and removing this TBAN would enable me to ensure that (a) I can nominate my own newly improved content (b) review others with my usual standards (in line with DYK rules of course) (c) more easily highlight issues that are on the main page in DYK which I have not been easily able to do for two years. I realise that my tone and approach two years or so ago which led to the TBAN were unnecessarily harsh and scathing, and sometimes even hurtful, and I will promise to keep that dialled to zero. I would even be delighted to be put onto some kind of probationary period, say six months, where any behaviour deemed unsuitable would result in immediate TBAN reinstatement.
I wasn't going to make a statement because I wasn't working regularly at ERRORS two years ago and can't know how that felt to those who were. But TRM's final two sentences convince me to support a six-month probationary lifting of the TBAN with a reassessment at the end of the six months. I realize that's an addition to what TRM is proposing. —valereee ( talk) 14:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm in support of this - TRM has markedly cut back the snark, etc that he used to display. He's certainly not perfect, but what I see of him is vastly improved. Just don't backslide! Ealdgyth ( talk) 21:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
During my time here at DYK, The Rambling Man has struck me as an editor that would always make sure the DYK criteria were met - especially when it comes to the "Is it interesting?" rule. Although I think TRM has sometimes displayed an overly negative sense of humor, I think he would be a great addition the to the DYK reviewer team. L293D ( ☎ • ✎) 13:16, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Echoing all of my colleagues above. While I don't have much Main page experience aside for some ITN work, I, too, have noticed improvement. Therefore, I encourage the Committee to grant TRM's amendment. I think the benefit in adopting it far outweighs the risk. TRM's work has always inspired exceptional confidence for its high-quality. Looks like a no-brainer win-win. Good stuff. El_C 21:17, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
I like his work and I would only want him back in DYK if he isn't uncivil to other editors. It seems like he can likely do that. SL93 ( talk) 03:03, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
I've had multiple disagreements with TRM in the past, but based on his comments above and his promise to change and behave from now on, I'm willing to agree to him being given another chance, provided that he keep his promise to keep civil. A six-month probation also seems like a decent compromise and would allow TRM to prove himself while also understanding that if he reverts to his previous behavior, the topic-ban will be reinstated. Admittedly I haven't interacted with him much ever since he was initially banned from DYK, but if his comments above truly prove that he has changed for the better, then why not give him another shot? Narutolovehinata5 t c csd new 03:05, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
I would support the lifting of the TBAN. The Rambling Man has demonstrated, in his attention to detail in the "ITN" and "On this day" discussions in connection with the main page, that he is perfectly able to avoid the type of behaviour that led to the ban. Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 06:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Interacting with TRM at GAN and ITN over the last few years, the snark in general has certainly become at least more friendly, and the overt disapproval towards others' views has all but disappeared - where it appears in ITN comments I take for humor. TRM is a good reviewer with a good understanding of policy and, politeness lessons seemingly learned, can only be a benefit at DYK. If restrictions are still needed, a topic ban from bringing up DYK at ERRORS should suffice. I support the amendment, and would also support a probationary period as a sign of good faith. Kingsif ( talk) 10:00, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
No. I try to avoid him in any situation, just because he has been such a difficult editor to deal with, going off a different direction at times. My only recent interaction with him recently was at FLC in October 2020. I finally withdrew my nomination, because he effectively sidetracked it by insisting I find a way to make the nomination's table look a specific way on his own browser. It even went to WP:VPT, where he was told this was about his browser, and not a Wikipedia solvable issue. It certainly wasn't an FLC criteria. I finally threw in the towel and withdrew my nomination, just to end the nonsense. That dialog is Jean Harlow FLC. Here is the VP discussion Visual differences between browsers on tables. He's too unpredictable. Just because he's not like that on DYK now ... is because he is not on DYK. — Maile ( talk) 11:30, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
(First time commenting here, so hope I'm getting the formatting right) In my experience, first doing some work at TRM/Errors and since following his work across GA reviewing and quite a lot of content work, I've had no bad experiences with this editor— though I understand that people have. I've also noticed a general improvement in their behaviour. I get the impression that they know what the issues with their approach were and have worked to adopt a more civil &c demeanor. I see no reason, at this point, why the TBAN should not be lifted, either in a probationary manner or completely. Eddie891 Talk Work 12:33, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
is very encouraging and bodes well, but I would feel better if it went further. The "harsh and scathing" tone was not confined to DYK, and extended over a period considerably longer than two years ago. I wonder if you would be willing to make the same promise about participation at FAC, and extend the probationary period to cover FAC discussions as well? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:30, 27 December 2020 (UTC)I realise that my tone and approach two years or so ago which led to the TBAN were unnecessarily harsh and scathing, and sometimes even hurtful, and I will promise to keep that dialled to zero. I would even be delighted to be put onto some kind of probationary period, say six months, where any behaviour deemed unsuitable would result in immediate TBAN reinstatement.
Here's some fresh evidence of continuing incivility. TRM's user page is currently just a diff in which he is told to "fuck off princess". This is not explained and seems to be a blatant violation of WP:POLEMIC. If a new editor should come across this while trying to communicate with or learn more about TRM, they seem likely to find it confusing, stressful and unpleasant.
I traced this to understand the issue. The immediate cause was an incident at WP:ERRORS. Here's the timeline:
My take on this is that there's some bad blood between TRM and Floquenbeam. TRM seizes on a minor issue and uses it as an excuse to start haranguing Floquenbeam. Floquenbeam reverts and then, when TRM follows him, tells him repeatedly to go away. Having baited Floquenbeam into responding with incivility, TRM then flaunts his trophy on his user page for all to see.
This is consistent with the previous pattern of TRM being so difficult and unpleasant that most admins refuse to deal with him at WP:ERRORS. This got so bad that TRM had to set up his own independent errors page for a while. Now that he has returned to the official page, relations have degenerated again. Arbcom should please consider tightening sanctions, rather than relaxing them.
My interactions with The Rambling Man have all been pleasant, over many years, and I'd like to have him back at DYK. I am busy with celebrations, but could find as evidence more DYK reviews and GA reviews that I liked, here are two samples: Template:Did you know nominations/Johannes Martin Kränzle and Talk:Vespro della Beata Vergine/GA1. I also found interactions pleasant when I reviewed "his" articles at FAC. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 11:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
TRM and I have worked on a few article projects together, and we interact quite a bit at ERRORS and elsewhere. On the few occasions when he's directed his annoyance at main-page issues in my direction, I've taken it in my stride - speaking personally it's water off a duck's back, and I know that any "abuse" I may have received in the past is only because he cares deeply about the content we show to our readers.
That said, I know others find this more stressful to deal with, and I did used to cringe sometimes at the remarks directed towards other editors in DYK and elsewhere. So I think that when the TBAN was implemented two years ago, it was the right remedy. It was clear at that time, that the bad blood between TRM and some of the DYK regulars had hit breaking point, and TRM himself reluctantly accepted that remedy. I genuinely do think the situation has improved since then though, per what's written in the nomination statement above. Other than the odd general complaint such as "I thought people checked these things", when an OTD error creeps through, his comments generally seem to be neutral in tone these days and focused on the issues rather than the editors.
So yes, definitely consider me a "support" for the proposed remedy. The built-in circuit-breaker means that people don't need to be too fearful that the old situation revives. And honestly, without getting into the saga that Andrew links above, I find it a bit laughable that TRM is being held to account for a breach of talk page and edit summary etiquette, followed by a piece of clear incivility towards him by an admin. Like I say, I get that some people are needled by TRM, and probably his initially comment was unnecessary, but ultimately he's a human being too and nobody would like being spoken to like that. — Amakuru ( talk) 12:13, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
As a frequent contributor to ITN and ERRORS, I would say that TRM has markedly improved his behaviour. There has much more focus from him on content creation (where he excels) and I can't recall much in the way of any incivility or arguments. I support allowing him to contribute at DYK and a probationary period will ensure if there are any problems that the sanction can be easily re-imposed. But I don't anticipate that happening. -- P-K3 ( talk) 15:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Ealdgyth puts it quite succinctly. "markedly cut back the snark" ... "certainly not perfect, but [...] vastly improved" ... "Just don't backslide".
I do not find Andrew Davidson's objections fair. He characterizes most of TRM's posts in the reported exchange negatively (usually by calling them 'snark'), while "fuck off" (accompanied by the edit summary "fuck off princess") is characterized as 'forcefully telling TRM to go away'. Similarly with the complaint on WP:ERRORS: "This report has been here nearly 48 hours without response. The article in question has been on the main page nine hours....". I'm not even sure it's a complaint, more of a reminder, maybe both. Regardless, especially in light of what else TRM has posted there recently, what those two sentences certainly are not is "a constant stream of complaints and negativity".
I hope the arbirtrators take a closer look at that page as well as TRM's recent contributions there and elsewhere, and then make a decision as to whether lifting the topic ban is a good idea for the encyclopedia, but I hope they don't rely on cherry-picked incidents, summarized and characterized with hyperbole, but without balance. --- Sluzzelin talk 15:06, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
TRM cares very much about the reliability of the project, and whilst some of the comments that led to his topic ban were clearly unduly harsh, at the time there was a somewhat cavalier attitude amongst some editors at DYK, leading to really unsuitable material, including BLP violations, being proposed for - and in some cases making it as far as - the Main Page. This does not seem to be the case now, and therefore I think the possible flashpoints may be drastically reduced. I think the motion is perfectly fine. Black Kite (talk) 15:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm mentioned here by Andrew D. above, but have no opinion on TRM returning to DYK. Being occasionally harassed by him is my penance for not standing up for the people he harassed before me. If he returns to DYK, I'll avoid the DYK section of ERRORS, so problem solved I guess. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 17:59, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I've benefited considerably from all of my interactions with TRM - he's reviewed a number of my articles for GA and FA, and given me lots of useful advice and guidance which has helped me enormously. He has always been rigorous, but has been unfailingly civil and friendly in his dealings with me. All of my interactions have been in the last two years, when I first interacted with him I was a relative newb, and I've always been very receptive to his advice. I can't comment on whether he takes a different tone in interactions with editors who are less willing to listen to his advice, or with whom has has had disputes in the past, but based on my own experiences I would support lifting the ban and giving him another chance to apply his talents to this part of the project. GirthSummit (blether) 10:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The Rambling Man topic ban from the Did You Know? process ( Remedy 9 in The Rambling Man case) is lifted, subject to a probationary period lasting six months from the date this motion is enacted. During this period, any uninvolved administrator may re-impose the topic ban as an arbitration enforcement action, subject to appeal only to the Arbitration Committee. If the probationary period elapses without incident, the topic ban is to be considered permanently lifted.
Enacted - Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 09:15, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by EvergreenFir at 20:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Does the scope of the discretionary sanctions promulgated by this amendment or original case include Turkey? I ask because I recently have noticed an increase in complaints around nationalist editing for and against Turkey, as well as disruptive editing around Turkey and Armenia. Examples include:
Eastern_Europe#Southeast_Europe says the part of Turkey is in Eastern Europe, but only a small portion. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Further clarification: If Turkey is included, then would Uyghurs be included as well? This is another area full of disruption. The article describes the Uyghurs as a "Turkic ethnic group". EvergreenFir (talk) 20:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you all for the clarification! EvergreenFir (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
The sanctions of Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 were put in place, per the 2013 Clarification request, to deal with cases of ethnic conflicts similarly related to the one of Armenia/Azerbaijan. This would likely include the conflict between Armenia and Turkey, but I can't imagine it would be so permissive to include just Turkey (and certainly not the Uyghurs). – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 00:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I am sure the EE discretionary sanctions do not include Turkey-Armenia relations. They are rooted in WP:EEML, and Turkey has never been an issue there. On the other hand, recently the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh intensified in real life, because Azerbaijan took an offensive against this Armenia-held area with the support of Turkey, and was able to regain control over a considerable part of it (with Armenians being evacuated). This caused escalation of Armenian-Azerbaijani clashes all over the internet, including Wikipedia. The reason that Turkey-Armenia issues escalated are in this conflict, and it would be reasonable to add them to the Armenia-Azerbaijan discretionary sanctions. Furthermore, if we are talking about Turkey-Syria issues, these are neither Eastern Europe nor Armenia-Azerbaijan. They are currently covered by general sanctions, and I believe upgrading them to DS could be a good idea but it would require a full case and can not be done as clarification.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 10:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Crouch, Swale at 17:48, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Please replace my 1 article a week AFC submission with a particular number I can create per week, day or month etc.
Tiers | Tier 3 | Tier 4 |
---|---|---|
6 months | ~3 a day | ~2 a week |
12 months | ~1.5 a day | ~1 a week |
I'm not specifying a specific number here since in my last appeal I was advised to "ensure that there is consensus for any future large creations of articles, prior to making the request for relaxation of his restrictions" well I have attempted to do that at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes RfC and although there is a consensus against a bot creating them (unless perhaps someone knows how to correctly program it) there it does seem like as long as the articles have meaningful content people are fine. Please specify how many of such articles I should be allowed to create per week, month or day etc.
Can I also have the appeal time modified back to 6 months please, namely so that I can appeal on 1 July.
Can I also be allowed to create redirects and DAB pages as long as I keep in mind WP:RDELETE and WP:COSTLY.
I don't think the move restriction really needs to be removed given I can file as many WP:RMT or WP:RM as I want if we do approve the ability to create directly as proposed a move exception should be to move pages from draftspace or userspace etc to mainspace in accordance with such creation limits. If we don't relax the creations restrictions significantly (say only a few a week) then I'd suggest allowing me to move pages as a result of a RM discussion that has been listed for at least 7 days since although I can still do this now people might question if I'm not allowed to move them myself and have to use RMT for move requests I close. However if one of the tier 3 options (or similar) happens then I'd say that this would be unnecessary since I should be encouraged to focus on creating good articles rather than potentially rushing it in order to do other things.
Almost exactly a year ago I said (in part) This wouldn't be Crouch, Swale's second chance - this would be the fourth or fifth loosening of the unblock conditions but there is still no evidence that they understand why the restrictions were imposed in the first place.
[2] Everyone is one year older and there have been many changes in the world since then, but I am still not seeing any evidence that Crouch, Swale understands why they were placed under these restrictions and no evidence they understand why previous appeals were declined. The request to be allowed to appeal every six months speaks volumes to this last point imo. So I recommend that this appeal is declined.
Thryduulf (
talk) 02:08, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Awilley at 02:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
This incident is so inconsequential that normally I would ignore it, but as one of the parties has found it unfair enough to retire [5] and the other has explicitly welcomed Committee oversight [6] [7] [8] here I am. Both editors are people I respect who were acting in good faith, so I hope this can be resolved quickly and without any hard feelings or extra drama.
At issue is this statement by Objective3000 at WP:AE addressing Mandruss and the editor who filed the AE. Mandruss had been taken to AE for reverting the same content twice in 24 hrs and declining (on user talk) to self-revert. After Objective's comment, Mandruss self-reverted and Objective3000 re-reverted. (For what it's worth Mandruss was reverting content that had been recently added to the Lead that didn't have consensus on the talk page. [9])
El_C saw this as tag-team editing to circumvent a sanction and logged a warning for Objective3000 to that effect over my objections. I think Objective did a Good Thing in trying to resolve the problem in the most efficient way possible, and doesn't deserve a logged warning for that. Also note that the edit restriction on the article does not prohibit Objective3000, who had not made any other edits to that article in the preceding week, from reverting a revert, so O3000 did not violate any sanction or policy. ~ Awilley ( talk) 02:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you to the people who have spent time reviewing this. Reflecting on this over the past couple of days, I think what bugs me most is our knee-jerk tendency to classify all tag-team editing as bad. The goodness/badness of tag-teaming, just like regular reverting, depends entirely on the context. It's good when used on vandalism, BLP violations, copyvios, obviously UNDUE/POV content, and edits that are clearly against consensus. It's bad when used indiscriminately to circumvent or disrupt the consensus building process. This is why it surprises me when so few people here, including some Arbitrators, have not commented on the context. If you look at nothing else, please look at this diff (including the edit summary). I realize it's tricky to decipher what text had been added to the Lead between all those references, so here's the text itself for your convenience:
The riots and storming of the Capitol were described as insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism.[2][3][4] Some news outlets labeled the act as an attempted coup d'état by Trump.[5][6] The incident was the first time the Capitol had been overrun since the 1814 burning of Washington by the British during the War of 1812.[7][8]
There was not consensus to add this content, and the wikilinks to insurrection, sedition, domestic terrorism, burning of Washington, and coup d'état seem excessive for the Lead of top-level biography. This context makes some of the comments here less than logical. User:Levivich is aware that there was no consensus to add "coup d'etat" to the Lead, as he had voted at Talk:Donald_Trump#Coup_d'etat_attempt, yet he is here criticizing Ojective3000 and Mandruss. User:MONGO cites the fact that this is a high profile BLP as reason to warn O3000, while ignoring that O3000 was the one reverting the contentious content out of the BLP. I see at least two other users here criticizing O3000 who regularly complain about how other editors use recent news to stack the articles of conservative figures with negative information. I can see why User:Black Kite might be cynical, but I think it could be chalked up to our tendency to make snap judgements without looking at context. ~ Awilley ( talk) 19:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
"Sometimes, even when you're right, you need to step back and leave it to someone else. The language Mandruss removed was overly strong and UNDUE, but not the sort of obviously defamatory material whose removal justifies ignoring a 1RR restriction."I would point out that Objective3000 was that "someone else". There was no 1RR violation, as O3000 had not made any other edits to the article in the preceding week or following days.
As the Eagles sang: “You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave" I was disappointed to see @
CaptainEek: and @
Power~enwiki: say I threw a fit
and made a threat of retirement
. I made no threat and had no fit. I simply put a retired template on my UTP and archived the rest so folks would know not to post. I made no suggestion of retirement in advance and no statement of my reasons. That is, no parting shot. I also decided not to file an appeal. Can’t one even quietly retire without nasty comments? I am also disappointed that @
Levivich: would point to a year-old AE discussion claiming it was prior evidence of me tag-teaming. In fact, SashiRolls made a fallacious claim that five editors were tag-teaming and the result was an indef AP2 TBan for SashiRolls. Attacks against DS editors are extremely common, as can be seen by perusing the drama boards.
Now, as to the situation. DS articles absolutely must have additional restrictions. They are inundated with five-minute old, undigested news (as was the case here), fringe theories, vandalism, and white supremacists, et. al. from the Reddit site de jour spreading hate. But, these restrictions create a very difficult editing environment. Witness the resulting AP2 editor attrition from sanctions here. When six new editors appear from an off-Wiki site pushing the same POV (real tag-teaming), editors run up against 1RR very quickly. It is commonplace for an editor to request another editor make a revert to avoid a 1RR sanction. It is common to suggest a self-rvt after an accidental or iffy edit and then re-revert. I have even seen admins request reverts from other editors. (Most admins are smart enough to avoid DS articles entirely.) Further, DS rules differ by page and keep changing. That’s not a complaint. It’s a necessity.
I’ve talked to the problem. I don’t know the solution. I would suggest that RECENTISM in some form become a guideline instead of an essay. In this case, repeated attempts were made to add contentious “breaking news” to the lead of a highly viewed BLP with no consensus and no corresponding text in the body. The edit I reverted included the words insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism in a BLP about some guy named Donald. Personally, I agree with the words – but strongly believe this requires ATP discussion and some time to pass. Frankly, this was verging on a vandalism exception, which I think should nullify Mandruss’ warning. My attempt was to deescalate a situation, guide discussion to the ATP, and remove the BLP problem as quickly as possible. We must have a way to stop news from ending up in a BLP that is so new the ink is still wet.
As my retirement has been mentioned, I must say that my retirement was triggered by the sanction as a vague, logged warning along such lines makes editing in DS areas untenable. However, I also need the time IRL. So, reversal of the warning does not mean return. Not that my minor efforts matter to the project. But, I had a totally clean 13 year record, despite spending most of my time in highly controversial articles sprinkled with land mines (which usually results in acquiring some less than friendly coworkers) and would like that record back. I also think such sanctions have a chilling effect not helpful to the DS editing environment. We already walk on egg shells. Let us not weaponize them.
I would like to thank the three admins and Mandruss who have spoken out in my favor here, and apologize for the length. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 16:54, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
O3000 has now told us that Awilley's premise for this thread ... was based on an unwarranted inference. No, Awilley was correct. O3000, Ret. ( talk) 18:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
After Mandruss explicitly refused to self-revert, Objective3000 proposed to them to "Self-rvt and I’ll rvt." Mandruss then self-reverted ( diff), followed by Objective3000 reverting back a mere 2 minutes later ( diff). Needless to say, I consider that to be inappropriate, enough to deem noting it in the log to be worthwhile. Note that my log entry ( diff) noted Awilley's objection (which, honestly, I still don't really understand) as well as there being mitigating circumstances of an extraordinary nature (pertaining to the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol). Finally, my AE report closure ( diff), which reiterated all of that, also praised both Mandruss and Objective3000 for their long-term high-quality work at the AP2 topic area. I don't at all mind giving this particular violation a pass (makes sense), but to conclude that it wasn't actually a violation, that I cannot abide. Beyond all of that, I was sorry and quite shocked to learn that Objective3000 has retired over this. That's a serious loss to the project. My closing summary at the AE report stressed that I didn't intend for the warning to serve as a "blemish" on their "record," but I guess that wasn't enough. El_C 02:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
it is rare that we actually see tag teaming, but this seems a pretty clear case of it. Now, if other Committee members end up subscribing instead to your interpretation of it being only a
debatable alleged violation, well, that would surprise me, but I will of course respect that finding. In a pragmatic sense, it would actually probably be better for the project if the Committee were to recommend for me to rescind the warnings, notwithstanding that I'd still consider that to be a logic and policy fail. Because then, Objective3000 may come out of retirement and Mandruss may end their wikibreak early. Which, hey, to me that's better than some abstract notion of principles.
I think PackMecEng's observation pretty much nails it, Awilley. Beyond that, I echo what others have argued before: that you tend to overrely on sanction customization, which, at times, appears to be somewhat esoteric in nature and unclear, or otherwise less than consistent( diff). I vaguely remember, for example, a custom "no personal comments" sanction of his running into difficulties, I think because other admins couldn't figure out how to correctly enforce it. And don't get me wrong, I've indulged in some spectacular failures of custom AE sanctions. But the point is that I moved on from that (for years and years). Finally, on the whole CR versus EBRD matter, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that, while I had authored the WP:CRP supplementary page as a point of reference (at the request of Coffee), I was never involved in the formulation of it as a sanction. I actually don't even know how it came about, so if anyone does, please enlighten me. Now, imagine if the Committee was, somehow, prompted to take a close look into the whole CR versus EBRD realm of sanctions that it, itself, authorizes? Ooh, what do you say, incoming Committee? Kitty nudge? El_C 19:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it took me this long (pride? hurt feelings?) —and first and foremost, I apologize to both Mandruss and Objective3000, for this lengthy delay, which reflects poorly on me— but I have now added an addendum to the log entry ( diff), which, as mentioned there, I hope will serve to quell any further tension. As I also note in this addendum, if there is anything else I can say or do to better facilitate peace and harmony, please do not hesitate to let me know. Thanks, everyone, for all your patience, and sorry that my response to this challenge has been less than ideal. El_C 19:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
This was extremely blatant tag-team editing, and I don't think a threat of retirement is a good reason to revoke the justified note they were "cautioned against circumventing edit restrictions". power~enwiki ( π, ν) 02:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I fail to see how such a warning could be NOT a blemish on one's record. But who knows, here where up is down, yellow is purple, and a lone admin can issue a logged warning against serious opposition from both admins and non, while citing nothing written but an obscure essay. I'm not smart enough to understand this. ― Mandruss ☎ 03:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
[insert one sleep period]
I think a good unwritten rule would be: When an editor has established a long history of conscientious good faith behavior, they have earned the benefit of the doubt and should not receive a sanction for a good faith mistake. Not even a logged warning. Such contributors should not be victims of the crazy, convoluted body of scattered, incohesive rules that our revered system of crowdsourced self-governance created and has proven utterly incapable of addressing. Sanctions should be reserved for bad faith, since they affect the editor's reputation and may contribute to future sanctions in a sort of snowball effect. This should be intuitive to any experienced editor possessing any sense of fairness.
A logged warning clearly implies fault, and there is no fault in a human mistake. A logged warning should not be a mechanism for clarification, as it has been used by El_C in this case. If the rules prevented El_C from filing an ARCA request, the rules seriously need changing. If ARCA had provided clarification for future reference without implying fault on O3000's part, I don't think he would have retired.
The appropriate action at this stage is:
― Mandruss ☎ 14:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Jeppiz: Oh boy.
Mandruss had started to feel 'above the law'Unsupported by evidence or other editors (except perhaps Tataral, and he hasn't said that).
I had notified Mandruss about improper talk page behaviourYou took a remarkably one-sided view of that little hatting skirmish. SPECIFICO was equally at fault there, and he acted first, but you "notified" only me. I've given this some thought and concluded that my recent well-founded public criticism of you here likely earned me a place on your shit list that caused you to read that situation in SPECIFICO's favor, giving him a pass. When I correctly informed you about your misuse of a warning template, [17] I expect that only moved me higher on your list and exacerbated the situation. I must be more careful about whose toes I correctly step on. Happy to discuss that with you at my UTP, but I don't think this is the time or place to dissect that "incident" further.
going against discretionary sanctions just because they felt they could- Clear misrepresentation, again calling into question your overall objectivity in the matter. I "went against discretionary sanctions" because I didn't understand how they applied in that case, and I think I've made this abundantly clear. I did not consciously go against discretionary sanctions, nor would I. Nobody is more careful about following the rules, and I make a concerted effort to understand them.
ignoring two different users' appeal to self-revertRight, neither of whom cited the passage from WP:EW that El_C quoted in the AE complaint. Editors often get such "appeal to self-revert" wrong. I looked at the both the content of the criticisms and the usernames of the editors making them, and I made a judgment call that I was more likely right than wrong, which turned out to be incorrect, and I decided to send this to AE. I did not "dare" you to go to AE. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that ultimately turning out to be wrong does not prove bad faith, and Mandruss's bad faith is how you have spun this entire episode.
the impression of feeling that normal rules don't apply to themAll things considered, an entirely unjustified and unfair assessment in my opinion.
(I recognize in good faith that Mandruss may only be talking about Objective3000, not themselves)- Exactly, and that's crystal clear given that I requested a removal of O3000's warning, not mine.
I don't get how you felt it was appropriate to use this ARCA request about O3000's warning to take further swipes at me. I appreciate the compliments sprinkled throughout your distortions and unfounded criticisms, but that doesn't excuse them in my view. ― Mandruss ☎ 17:21, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
SPECIFICO commented about Awilley: ...and given Awilley's history of supervoting in various venues and with respect to various colleagues, I just think the appearance is obvious to those familiar with his history.
I can't let that go without comment. First, I'm "familiar with his history" and do not share SPECIFICO's view. And SPECIFICO has a habit of asserting widespread support for his views and presuming to speak for others to bolster his arguments. I have asked him on at least three separate occasions, spanning perhaps three years, to speak only for himself. I would ask him to modify his comment accordingly; if he declines to do so, I trust that readers will take that part of his comment for what it is. ―
Mandruss
☎ 21:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Except in cases where it doesn't really matter (this was not such a case), I will never self-revert merely because an editor demands that I do so, unless they are one of the few editors high enough on my respect list that I would defer to their judgment. I'm more than capable of deference, but not with just any editor. Or any two editors. It's not a vote, and two editors can easily be wrong at the same time, especially when you consider that ulterior motives are sometimes present in these things. I doubt Jeppiz would blindly comply with a demand to self-revert if it didn't seem like a legitimate demand to Jeppiz. I doubt many competent editors would, particularly at that article. There is more at stake at that article than "going along to get along".
Other editors will need to show me something that makes it clear I'm in violation of the rules; that was not done until we got to AE, and not done by Jeppiz.
In my mind, my error was failing to have mastered the rules, not failing to blindly submit to the demand of two random editors. I don't expect my mind to be changed on that.
As I said at AE and here, I won't dispute my warning. But I will not have my integrity impugned without evidence. ― Mandruss ☎ 15:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@
Levivich: you should be considering the viewpoints of all editors
– I did consider these editors' viewpoints. As I said above, I looked at the both the content of the criticisms and the usernames of the editors making them, and I made a judgment call that I was more likely right than wrong, which turned out to be incorrect, and I decided to send this to AE.
Considering viewpoints does not mean blindly complying when you disagree with them. ―
Mandruss
☎ 17:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm disappointed and alarmed at
Jeppiz's continued attacks and failure to fairly evaluate what went on at my UTP. It's
right here for anyone to review. I responded to the initial demand, If you are suggesting that this edit and this edit are the same, I suggest you take a closer look. They differ by 2,219 bytes if I'm not mistaken.
It's eminently clear from that comment that I was under the impression that the edits needed to be the same content to be a violation. (Is
Jeppiz suggesting that I was feigning ignorance at that point? For what purpose?) The constructive response would've been something like what El_C said at AE: reverts need not be "identical" to count as such.
WP:EW is quite clear on this:
Nothing like that was said at my UTP; if it had been, I would have immediately self-reverted. Instead, off we went to AE. Again, Jeppiz is claiming that being shown to be wrong at AE shows bad faith before AE. That is simply wrong on multiple levels, including logic and ethics, and I will NEVER accept it. If the community feels that means I should be banned from
Donald Trump, fine, and then I'll be considering my own retirement even more seriously than I ever have in the past. Perhaps it's time to finally put this madness behind me and find a more rewarding hobby. ―
Mandruss
☎ 17:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period
(bold is my emphasis).
@
SPECIFICO: I feel he also has a serious WP:OWN ownership attitude that has been very counterproductive and obstructive.
I feel that's a serious accusation and should not be made in support of a sanction proposal without evidence. If that's allowed, I have some feelings about you that might warrant a sanction. ―
Mandruss
☎ 19:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@ SPECIFICO: And in case it wasn't obvious, I'm respectfully asking you to strike. ― Mandruss ☎ 19:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
William Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 1 ― Mandruss ☎ 21:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
I had commented at the WP:AE case as an uninvolved admin and had made clear my distaste for the request for a sanction. El_C was technically correct but it is very undesirable to sanction people (yes, a logged warning is a sanction) when the incident is trivial and involves an issue where they are right. Their opponents managed to press the right buttons but they were blatantly wrong regarding what should happen in the article (they were padding the lead with not-news violations, no analysis by secondary sources, and nothing in the body of the article). Objective3000 made an honest statement (that Mandruss should self-revert to remove the technical problem so Objective3000 could repeat their edit)—that reflects how all topics under discretionary sanctions are handled. The rules of the game are known by all the participants and Objective3000's only mistake was to speak out loud. Furthermore, Objective3000 made a comment about their intentions whereas the issue (tag teaming) had already been implemented by their opponents—opponent 1 had inserted the padding; Mandruss reverted it; opponent 2 repeated the first edit after cutting out some of the excess. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Q: Does Awilley actually have standing to file this amendment request? I thought that third-party appeals were not allowed. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 05:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
This ARCA seems to be out of process?
WP:AC/DS#sanctions.appeals: Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction.
This is not a new issue. A little less than a year ago, O3000's "tag teaming" with other editors (not Mandruss) was raised in an AE report (against another editor: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive261#SashiRolls, see, e.g., my statement and Pudeo's and also discussion on Pudeo's talk page at User talk:Pudeo#Personal attack). (I believe there were other related discussions but I don't remember where they are.) It was clear to me from those discussions that O3000 and others did not believe that planned or coordinated reverting (I'm not sure how else to phrase it) was tag team editing or a policy violation. I think O3000 left those discussions with the belief that his understanding of policy w/r/t "tag teaming" was correct—a reasonable belief given that nobody was sanctioned for it. I think this might help explain why O3000 would think there was nothing wrong with his actions and why he's taking this so hard.
So, although this does appear to be a third-party appeal, it might help prevent this sort of misunderstanding from happening in the future if Arbcom, or somebody, clarified "tag teaming" and edit warring policy, e.g. whether "self-revert and I'll revert" is OK or not. I'll also echo that O3000 wasn't the only editor who repeated another editor's edits: there is also the editor who reinstated a reverted bold edit. I think it's also an open question whether reinstating-after-revert is "tag teaming" (even when there isn't explicit on-wiki coordination).
These questions matter for any page under 1RR (and frankly are unevenly enforced by admins), so Arbcom could help by clarifying what is and is not "tag teaming" at least for DS 1RR restrictions. Levivich harass/ hound 09:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I think O3000 left those discussions with the belief that his understanding of policy w/r/t "tag teaming" was correct—a reasonable belief given that nobody was sanctioned for it.Levivich harass/ hound 17:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Evidence presented seems to clearly indicate that this was tag teaming on one of our most viewed pages, a BLP to boot and the warning applied was not only of the most gentle of ones, but also one of the most necessary, considering the BLP in question in particular.-- MONGO ( talk) 09:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Not really sure what Awilley hopes to accomplish by dragging my earnest comment in the mud and misattributing my meaning [19] but since he had the decency to ping. Not really sure why Awilley even bothered to bring my comment up...nobody gives a rats arse what I think anyway. Did I notice they removed a questionable edit...yes, I did indeed. Does that grant them a free pass or special consideration/exemption? In my opinion, No. Is this because this is a prominent BLP...maybe. So what? Everyone have a group hug and sing kumbaya now.-- MONGO ( talk) 20:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
As the editor who made the original enforcement request, I wish to acknowledge both
El_C and
Awilley for their thoughtful contributions. I felt El C made a balanced call in issuing a warning but no block to
Mandruss and
Objective3000. I also think Awilley has made a balanced request that the warning stays for Mandruss but it dropped for Objective3000. It's not for me to comment on that decision. My concern when filing the request was that Mandruss had started to feel 'above the law', I wish to emphasize that Mandruss has made a positive contribution to Wikipedia and I wish they continue their good work. However, my request wasn't based on a single incident. The day before the policy violation, I had notified Mandruss about improper talk page behaviour for (admittedly) hatting a talk page comment by a third user
[20] just because a different user had hatted theirs; I hoped a UTP discussion would be enough.
The day after, when Mandruss ignored the discretionary sanctions, I again took it to their talk page, as did a third user. Mandruss themselves more or less challenged us to go to AE ("I am not going to self-revert. With great difficulty I have stopped short of 3RR vio. If you wish to file at AE, do as you must. One of us would learn something, and learning is never a bad thing.")
[21]. This combination of hatting a third user just because they felt they could, going against discretionary sanctions just because they felt they could, ignoring two different users' appeal to self-revert and even daring us to go to AE combined to give the impression of feeling that normal rules don't apply to them. When I see Mandruss arguing here (I recognize in good faith that Mandruss may only be talking about Objective3000, not themselves) "When an editor has established a long history of conscientious good faith behaviour, they have earned the benefit of the doubt and should not receive a sanction for a good faith mistake. Not even a logged warning.", I see the same problem that led me to file the request, the belief that 'some editors are more equal than others'.
Mandruss is a diligent editor whose net contribution is overwhelmingly positive; I hope that they stay. On a general level, I don't believe in special treatment and think the policy Mandruss suggests of letting more experienced editors off for the same behaviour that newcomers would be punished for would set a bad precedent with wider implications than this case.
Jeppiz (
talk) 16:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors will need to show me something that makes it clear I'm in violation of the rules; that was not done until we got to AE, and not done by Jeppiz.This is not true; in my effort to solve the situation at Mandruss TP, I explicitly referred to the rules, even quoted the discretionary sanctions [22]. I won't stand for Mandruss trying to claim something else. Mandruss's entire last contribution [23] pushes the limits of WP:AGF when they claim they were unaware. Accepting that would require overlooking that:
There have been many discussions in scattered venues about the need to reevaluate and reform DS and enforcement in American Politics. A tiny fraction of our Admin corps volunteer their time and attention and emotional involvement to the effort. The burden on them, including the ones involved in this case, is beyond what anyone could reasonably be expected to fulfil in a consistent and effective manner. So along with lots of good work, we also have inconsistencies, errors, and omissions.
As has been acknowledged, this appeal is out of process. That's not a good thing except in an urgent situation unlike this one. I hope and expect that Arbcom will address the growing concern about DS and enforcement in general by initiating an orderly and systematic review and a discussion of its options to improve the entire system.
The nature of DS is that it's discretionary. El C, as one of the most active volunteers in the area, makes lots of good faith judgments nearly continually, and I see nothing to be gained by validating Awilley's second guess of an action that was clearly within El C's authority. For the avoidance of doubt, if Mandruss had done the right thing and self-reverted when asked, there were several editors, including myself, who (without any prompting) would have independently removed the offending content. Despite that, to repeat, this "appeal" is out of process and should be declined. It's further complicated by Awilley's possibly animus toward El C, who was one of the Admins and experienced editors who opposed Awilley's unilateral replacement of "consensus required" with his bespoke "24-hour BRD" sanction. Not to accuse Awilley of such motivation, but the background should have been disclosed in this filing.
SPECIFICO
talk 17:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@
El C: I do not think anyone would suggest that you resent Awilley's actions. The appearance of animus would be in the other direction only. It is more than unusual to ask Arbcom to overturn so routine a discretionary action, and given Awilley's history of supervoting in various venues and with respect to various colleagues, I just think the appearance is obvious to those familiar with his history. Best practices is to avoid any such possible appearance -- and again, the ARCA request can be considered solely on its merits. Thanks for your note. I have never seen you personalize or improperly involve yourself in any Admin action.
SPECIFICO
talk 19:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
O3000 has now told us that Awilley's premise for this thread Statement by Awilley - This incident is so inconsequential that normally I would ignore it, but as one of the parties has found it unfair enough to retire
was based on an unwarranted inference unrelated to what 03000 actually posted on his talk page. So I hope this extraordinary un-warning request can be set aside. The AE warning does nothing to diminish O3000's reputation or his excellent, collaborative editorial contributions, and it was clearly explained by El C and within his discretion.
I am distressed to see Mandruss' recent remarks here. Mandruss is by far the most active editor on the Donald Trump article and talk pages, at 22% of article and 27% of article talk page participation. Those are staggering figures of concentration for so active and widely edited pages. He has done lots of useful work -- more on housekeeping than article content, IMO, which is not his forte. He knows I appreciate his contributions, even to the extent that I urged him to run for Arbcom last fall. However, I feel he also has a serious WP:OWN ownership attitude that has been very counterproductive and obstructive. His views often prevail out of his sheer persistence and willingness to pursue his views to the point that others disengage. He said on his talk page that he's willing to learn from the experience of this AE complaint, and I think a page block of a month or so might help give him the breathing room to return refreshed and ready to collaborate. SPECIFICO talk 18:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
When I posted OWN above, I felt -- evidently incorrectly -- that Mandruss's statements and behavior documented in this ARCA matter supported my interpretation that he behaves as if from a privileged position in that article of the kind referened in OWN. But I hear several editors telling me I should have provided diffs in my section, so I'll provide a few I can quickly locate. In this AE matter, the problem was created bu Mandruss' refusal to self-revert after two editors brought his violation to his attention. As he says in his section on this page, Mandruss feels he can choose to deprecate the concerns of editors he doesn't know and respect, to wit the two who informed him of his violation. I think that's not our standard. Is the dominant editor on a page privileged to reject non-preferred editors out of hand? Then we have Mandruss' trying to tell other experienced editors what to do,
e.g. here, following @
Valjean: to his talk page with what I consider an inappropriate tone of privilege and an expectation of control. There are the recent discussions of "coup attempt. Note that this thread does not concern placing such text in the lead, which was the subject of a November discussion, and that it was about an edit and reference that pre-dated the attack on the Capitol. See
this thread, including the hatted portion. In an unrelated discussion, both as to placement RS verification and WEIGHT, there had been previous attempts to put "coup" in the lead and back in November. See Mandruss in this thread
with different sourcing and facts, about content that I considered UNDUE at the time.
So what I see here is an editor who is the most active presence on the page, who has not taken the responsibility to ensure he understands the page restrictions. And in the recent "coup d'etat" discussion in the first link above, he reverts it citing a nonexistent consensus to omit, presumably based on the inconclusive lead text discussion from months ago, giving no substantive reason other than his personal assertion of "consensus". He then continues to oppose the edit at some length before finally
coming to my talk page and asking how he can see the cited Washington Post article, becuase he doesn't have access. It's up to him whether a WaPo subscription is worth the $26, but it's remarkable he would feel entitled to oppose text related to sourcing he has not seen. I question whether anyone can be highly active and opinionated at the AP articles without comprehensive media access across the spectrum.
So again: To me, the tone and substance of Mandruss' behavior as documented at AE and in his words on this page were, combined with his edit stats, supporting my view that he acts from a sense of privilege that I called OWN. I've provided the above in response to reactions that my view was evidence free. I may or may not be correct, but I abhor ASPERSIONS and I hope I've at least corrected that, if not convinced anyone on the merits.
SPECIFICO
talk 23:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Warnings are minimal, not a biggy to sweat over. Regardless, this case exemplifies why ArbCom needs to revoke DS/AE. I'm not here to criticize any of the actions taken by individual admins or arbs; rather, I would like for ArbCom to look closer at the DS/AE monster that we've had to deal with in recent years. If behavioral disruption was the only issue, a simple admin action would have resolved the problem. If another admin felt the remedy was too severe or undeserved, then a discussion between the two would have likely led to a compromise instead of wasting valuable time here making this into a complicated case. I'm also not taking a position relative to any of the named editors in this case. I admit that I am biased against DS/AE because of what I perceive to be abuse/ POV creep and what has happened to me - not that it has happened in this case. Houston, we have a problem. Atsme 💬 📧 17:40, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
It's baffling that this is even up for re-discussion. The on-Wiki communications between the two editors and reversions in tandem were specifically meant to do a technical end run around WP:DS limits on reversions. Had any other user engaged in this behavior, it would've led to a sanction, but favoritism and bias lead not only to a ridiculously soft warning at WP:AE, but admins actively trying to overturn even that empty warning. The standards for conduct on Wikipedia are slipping towards being entirely meaningless for a small circle of editors, including Objective3000 and Mandruss, who've been editing for a sufficient period of time are friendly with the right parties. These political games and bending of the rules are what turns people away from the site. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 21:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Against my better judgment, I'm editing ARCA for the first time, not because I have a strong opinion about this particular case but because I've been thinking about sock/meat puppetry a lot lately and find the way our WP:MEAT policy is being interpreted here curious.
My understanding of tag teaming, which is a variety of meat puppetry, is that it's not when one person who already edits an article in good faith tries to deescalate a situation by offering to take ownership of an edit (one which they may well have made anyway) from someone else who already edits the article in good faith.
If Mandruss went to the talk page instead of editing again and said "this edit should be reverted because XYZ, but I can't," and O3000 saw that and said "ok, I'll do it," would we still be talking about meat puppetry? It seems like standard coordination on a talk page -- the sort that's especially necessary when there are article-level restrictions. If the difference has to do only with the way O3000 phrased it rather than any practical or intentional difference, I'm not sure that's a road we want to go down. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:48, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree in thinking that O3000 was acting in good faith here. Let's face it, if another editor had reverted Mandruss's edit and O3000 had reverted back, there would be no issue here. The really ironic thing is that, looking above, there are some more right-leaning editors criticising O3000 here despite the fact that they removed excessive negative information from the lead of Trump's article. If I was a cynic, I'd say that they're basing their comments on who did the reverting rather than the actual circumstances and specific content. Black Kite (talk) 22:47, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@ CaptainEek: Your comment implies that O3000 by posting a "retired" template 'threw a fit' and 'threw his toys out of the pram' (venerable Wikipedia clichés that do no credit to your sense of style). That's shameful in my opinion. If you didn't intend that implication, please take more care when you write.
@
El C: You say "As for it constituting a "blemish" on their record — all Objective3000 would have to do if someone were to try to use it against them would be to quote me saying that it wasn't intended as such. Which is why I said it, in the 1st place.
" It would be a lot more useful to say it in the log, IMO. Really a lot. I know the log entry is already long, but you could have said it instead of "Sorry for the unusual length of this log entry", because, you know, what use is that?
The amount of assumption of bad faith towards Mandruss, O3000, El C, admins in general, and the entirety of Wikipedia in Wikieditor19920's comment above leaves a bad taste. Everybody can comment here, no doubt, and so we get some low-water marks. Unless an arb or clerk feels like drawing the line somewhere? Bishonen | tålk 23:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC).
This is an excellent illustration of the dilemmas that will be produced by any system that provides a first-mover (or second-mover) advantage. DS is the worst of them, but even 3RR can do that, and even our basic BRD procedure. The fairness of these systems depends upon preventing one contributor maneuvering to put the other at the wrong end of the advantage. At present any POV editor who realizes how they work can sometimes manage to do that, unless up against an equally clever opponent. Ensuring that the encyclopedia has NPOV content should not be a game of this sort. DGG ( talk ) 17:45, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Oh for <insert deity here>'s sake, people, it was a warning! warning: NOUN 1: statement or event that indicates a possible or impending danger, problem, or other unpleasant situation.
Not a sanction nor a block nor a ban. Nothing more than a: "Please don't do this again." There is no reason to treat this as the wiki-Trial of the Century and throw any of these accusations and animosities around. I wonder if this is our version of the Bike Shed Principle; we know we can't personally do much about those <insert collective insult here> in Washington/ Sacramento/ Canberra/ wherever but we can be damned sure we'll treat the project as if lives depended on our edits. Reality check: Nobody's life depends on our edits. That editors are taking them as seriously as this discussion does is way out of whack with the reality we see around us. Chill. Go outside. Take a breath. Nobody's reputation was permanently besmirched before this mess began and it shouldn't be now.
Eggishorn
(talk)
(contrib) 19:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
This is one of the more trivial "sanctions" I've seen in AP2 enforcement, especially for what is a clear cut DS violation. The action seems well within El_C's discretion especially given the comments of the other commenting administrators. I and others have long called for a rework of the restrictions in AP2, but until that happens they ought to be enforced evenly. Mr Ernie ( talk) 15:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
I've been thinking about the first paragraph of Bishonen's statement above, and I agree with what she said there. In this ARCA, there is no serious claim that O3000 is a long-term abuser who has tried the community's patience one time too many. The range of opinions goes approximately from it having been something for which a warning was justified, to it having been something where the warning should be vacated, but in any case there is a consensus that overall O3000 has been a valued member of the community. As such, CaptainEek, I'm troubled by your language about fit throwing and toys from a pram. Although I don't want to blow it out of proportion, I would ask that you reconsider the way that you said it. Wikipedia is suffering from a coarsening of the language that editors use when speaking of one another, and from a lack of sensitivity to when an editor is genuinely and in good faith upset. I would hope that Arbitrators would seek to set a good example. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
The word "uprecedented" is often overused, but I think it applies to the current environment. People are acting in good faith, with a perceived urgency that is heightened by a political environment for which we have no templates, no past experience.
I believe the correct response here is that everybody was doing their best, and there should be no indelible consequences for any of it. IMO Newyorkbrad is exactly correct, and we should be very careful right now not to do things with lasting consequences for long-term productive members of the community who are clearly acting in good faith.
To err is human and to attribute malice virtually inescapable when it's almost impossible not to have an opinion on the content itself, as here. I am taking time out because I have PTSD and find the present real world situation almost impossible to handle, but I want to add my no-doubt superfluous $0.02 in support of an editor with whom I often disagree but whose good faith I have never had cause to doubt. Guy ( help! - typo?) 11:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction.( Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Standard provision: appeals and modifications) In this case, and in other cases where an uninvolved administrator at AE who voiced disagreement with the action taken brings us an ARCA appeal, I am inclined to disregard this provision and consider the third-party appeal. I'm willing to formalize this into our procedures if need be, but I'd prefer to wait for broader DS reform. Because this appeal was not brought by Objective3000, if we decline this appeal, the provision that "further substantive review at any forum is barred" should not apply.Objective3000 did not violate the restriction was written. However, AMPOL is a DS area, and on the whole, it was not an abuse of administrative discretion to conclude that coordination to circumvent a 1RR restriction (even if well-intentioned) is inappropriate.Previous committee decisions at ARCA have established that this committee will generally only reverse sanctions for abuse of administrative discretion, or something at that approximate level of review, absent exceptional circumstances. This is necessary because AE is designed to reduce the load on this committee – imagine if every AE sanction was appealed here – and so ArbCom acts mostly as a safety valve, not as a venue of first resort. Therefore, absent exceptional circumstances, we should not overturn this warning.Administrators should not act contrary to a clear consensus of their colleagues at AE. I don't know if the consensus in this case was clearly against the warning – a warning itself is a very light sanction. (According to Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Dismissing an enforcement request, a warning is actually not a sanction; it counts as "no action".) Overall, I don't know where I come down on this appeal. If El C downgraded this to "advice" ("Objective3000 is advised to ...") I would decline this appeal for sure. Right now, I'm inclined to decline this appeal without prejudice towards an appeal at AE or AN, but of course that strikes me as grossly excessive bureaucracy. It may be a good push to make explicit in our procedures that appeals to ArbCom via ARCA are generally assessed deferentially to the enforcing administrator (to reduce the number of appeals that are unfortunately resolved on procedural grounds), and that appeals from sanctions imposed at AE can still be appealed at AE (especially if administrators at AE were opposed to the original sanction). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Interstellarity at 19:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
It's been over five years since the ammendment to set sanctions on post-1932 American politics went in place. When we look at historical events from a distant future, we can get a better idea on how the event affected history. I am not requesting to repeal these sanctions, I am requesting that the sanction be lowered to something like 1944. It is easier to write an article on a president such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln then someone like Donald Trump or Joe Biden because the news can be too biased to get the big picture. I imagine the news was also biased back then, but we have modern historical evaluations on the event that help us to write better articles. That's how I feel about this in a nutshell. Interstellarity ( talk) 19:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
1932 really is still the beginning of contemporary US politics. It is when FDR was first elected, and FDR's policy approaches are still a political battleground in the present day. William Leuchtenburg's book In the Shadow of FDR traces FDR's influence through all the subsequent US presidents up to Obama (in the 2009 edition). I read it for a school requirement and found it enlightening. If there is good cause to restrict someone from editing about post-FDR US politics, they probably shouldn't be editing about the FDR era either. The stuff that happened then is still contentious in today's partisan battlegrounds. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A ( talk) 13:43, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
I think any cutoff year you choose will potentially be debatable. But is the current 1932 cutoff already causing problems that need to be addressed? If so, this request would be more compelling with evidence and examples of those problems. Geogene ( talk) 18:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't think I've ever processed an AP2 dispute or sanction where the locus of dispute was something that happened between 1932 and 1944 (indeed the vast majority are centred on current issues). That's not to say they don't exist, but I think I'd like to see the diffs before changing the cutoff date. Black Kite (talk) 19:07, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Echoing Black Kite to an extent, I'm eager to see what are the loci of dispute now, but I'll go further. This is incredibly broad brush and doesn't feel like a good measure at all. Having briefly looked into the morass of the case that prompted it, I'm wondering if Arbcom at the time were both rather exasperated and reluctant to issue a huge swathe of personal sanctions. Anyway, that's speculation. More to the point, I feel this measure is bad for Wikipedia. -- Dweller ( talk) Become old fashioned! 19:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
All sanctions (theoretically) must be recorded in the log at WP:ACDSLOG. For 2020, I see there only two articles which relate to something else than post-1990 politics: Frank Rizzo which I have protected myself (and this is the only time I remember involving AP2 for not contemporary politics, and I am not shy in imposing AE sanctions), and Three Red Banners which is probably there in error (I do not see how it is related to AP2). In any case, both articles are post-1950.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 12:33, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
I support changing this, to some date not after 1992. From a quick glance, with the one exception Ymblanter noted, the oldest topic I found discussed in the sanctions log was Vince Foster. The vast majority of American Politics issues relate to current events, but the Clintons are still regularly the subject of contentious discussion. There was a preference for a wide buffer region in the original imposition of AP2 to avoid doubt in marginal cases; I think either 1960 or 1980 would be reasonable choices. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The difference between starting in 1932 and starting in 1944 is that the period from 1932 to 1944 featured FDR and the New Deal, isolationism regarding involvement in World War II, the attempt at Supreme Court packing, the American Nazi movement and the anti-Nazi boycotts -- all of which have tendrils which connect them to current American politics. Is MAGA isolationism re-born? Will the Democrats attempt to counter Trump's Supreme Court nominations by packing the court? Is the alt-right the re-birth of an American fascist movement? What do we do about the newly powerful populist movement in Europe? How involved should the US government be in controlling the effects of capitalism? These questions are all intimately connected to what happened from 1932 to 1944, which argues against changing the starting point. 1932 does not seem to me to be an arbitrary choice, but the actual beginning of modern American politics. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 22:56, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm concerned by people stating that Interstellarity should be providing cases of 1932-1944 that this clarification would resolve. Quite the opposite - everyone else should be being required to provide cases that demonstrate that that set of years should also be covered by DS. It's supposed to cover the minimum possible to avoid issues. I actually think a good case could be made for moving it up to, say, the start of the Vietnam war, and if we're happy to have a discussion on that, that's great, but for the meantime, I'm a strong supporter. Nosebagbear ( talk) 11:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I think everyone is agreed that the cutoff of 1932 is arbitrary and that any year that the ArbCom of the time picked would necessarily be arbitrary. Any other date would also be arbitrary but need not be equally arbitrary; i.e., there may be less arbitrary dates available. It is clear from the AP2 Proposed Decision that the ArbCom of the time picked 1932 for no there reason than it was somewhere between the extremes of 1980 (too recent) and all of American history (too far back). If anything, this is a good demonstration of how the Goldilocks principle can guide rational people to suboptimal results. Neither the AP nor the AP2 cases involved anything that reached anywhere near as far back as 1932 and Ymblanter and power~enwiki have already demonstrated that the topics that AP2 sanctions have been invoked for are also recent. Beyond My Ken makes a cogent argument that there is ideological continuity of issues from the Roosevelt presidency era to issues of great controversy today but that is not a reason to keep the 1932 date. If we were to accept the continuity of ideologies argument, then the same issues that FDR faced were faced in recognizable form by his cousin Theodore and that these issues have ideological continuity all the way back to Jacksonian democracy and even to Jeffersonianism and Federalism. The committee implicitly rejected this approach since that would have turned the AP2 discretionary sanctions into American History discretionary sanctions. I think that any argument to keep the 1932 cutoff has to substantiate 1932-present as the narrowest possible range to prevent significant disruption. The record at hand does not present any evidence of this being the case. If anything, it shows that 1932 is far too broad and that this violates the principle that sanctions and restrictions should allow the greatest freedom of editing. WP:5P3 still has some purpose here, after all. The ArbCom of the time picked 1932 not through detailed inquiry of the best cutoff but through what seems like expediency and abundance of caution. The ArbCom of today has the benefit of a record that shows the 1932 date was overbroad and can pick a date that better matches the evidence shown. Looking through the sanctions log for this year and last, it is difficult to find anything even post-2000, never mind after the 1980 date the original ArbCom felt was too recent. Please consider moving the date forward significantly, to at least 1988 (the George H. W. Bush v. Michael Dukakis presidential election). This date would be a better fit for the evidence of disruption that is available and also match BMK's ideological continuity of issues argument while being closer to the idealized least restrictive option and therefore be less arbitrary than 1932. Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
At the implicit invitation of Barkeep49's request for better data and because I'm seeing dates picked based on what looks like speculation of what might or could happen, I thought it necessary to present what has happened under the current regime. Debates, however fierce, in the wider society that are not directly reflected in on-wiki disruption should not be the basis for sanctions. Therefore, the record of sanctions was searched for on-wiki disruption and correlated to the time period that the disruption was directly linked to.
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MethodologyThe Arbitration enforcement log was examined for blocks, bans, and other editor sanctions placed by administrators from 2016 to 2020 under the authority of the discretionary sanctions authorized by the Arbitration Committee as a result of the American Politics 2 arbitration case. Only restrictions placed on editors were counted, not those on articles. Each sanction as a separate action is counted separately. If an editor was given an edit restriction or topic ban, then violated that and was blocked, then returned and violated it again and was banned, those three separate events are are counted three times. If an editor was blocked or topic banned for violating AP2 restrictions based on multiple edits reported to WP:AE (including, in one notable case, 71 edits) then that one event is counted once. Community bans are not counted, even if they were related to American politics articles, because those actions are taken under the community's authority and not the committee's. ArbCom bans were included if explicitly invoked under the American Politics 2 case or subsequent motions. Warnings are not counted as sanctions, even if the DS was invoked as a basis for the warning, because warnings do not have the effect of restricting edits through the wiki software. Probations or other irregular and custom sanctions are treated as warnings and so also not counted for the same reason. Topic bans lifted upon appeal are not counted as sanctions. Topic bans that resulted in a block but which were lifted on appeal were counted as a sanction if the block took place before the ban was lifted. There were a small number of users blocked, unblocked, and reblocked under these sanctions. If the individual blocks were triggered by different edits or there were "new" edits that were significant evidence for further sanctions, then those were considered separate events. Rejected appeals are not counted as separate sanctions. The time periods are divided by Presidential administration to break the 88 year time period covered by these discretionary sanctions into comprehensible time periods. The time period a sanction was assigned to is based on the edit or edits triggering sanctions. This results the an apparent anomaly that edits related to, e.g., Trump's 2016 presidential election campaign are counted under the "Obama" row and not the "Trump" row. This is inevitable given that each election cycle lasts at least 2 years and there are multiple contestants. Unless clearly otherwise indicated, edits concerning events that took place during the short January lame duck period were counted as sanctions under the following administration for clarity and because politics during this time period are almost entirely concerned with the incoming presidency and not the outgoing one. FDR's presidency was divided into pre-war and war years due to its length and the amendment request above. Edits triggering sanctions that were to articles not about events (e.g., biographical articles, places, etc.) were treated as follows: If there was a source associated with the edit (either adding or removing) then the date of that source was used to categorize the edit. If the edit was not linked to a source or the source did not have a date then any identifiable event that the edit might have been connected to (e.g., the arrest of a person) was used to categorize the edit. If there was no dated source or identifiable event, then the date of the edit was used to categorize the edit on the basis that edits on political topics are more likely to be triggered by contemporary media coverage than historical coverage. The data was compiled in a Google Sheets document available here. ResultsThe editing restrictions, blocks, and bans placed under AP2 restrictions since 2016 greatly favor the 2016-present time period and there is almost no record of AP2 sanctions for events prior to 1993.
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Of the total 248 discretionary sanctions placed in the 4 years since they were authorized under the current ArbCom remedies , 240 or 96.7% were for edits concerning events after 2016. The almost complete lack of sanctions for events in the time period from 1932 to 1988 shows that the current remedies are not currently narrowly-tailored to the actual disruption experienced on this site. Speculation that sanctions need to encompass the period before 1988 are not supported by the evidence of disruption reported. Although the methodology is believed sound, discrepancies would not change that the evidence is very clear. Even if there were massive errors in time period categorization, the evidence of disruption is clustered is so tightly to time periods after 2009 that there can be no rational argument that sanctions have been invoked to curtail actual disruption for fully 86% of the time period currently covered by the DS regime. Although page protections and similar page-level invocations of the authority granted under AP2 was not explicitly tallied, cursory investigation did not disclose results which differed significantly from the results of the editor-level sanctions and so has not been worth the time to compile. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:44, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I have to admit some confusion regarding the motions below. From my reading, it appears that two almost-exclusive motions have possibly passed, which probably means I'm interpreting the preferential votes incorrectly. Perhaps a simple form of ranked preference voting could be added? e.g., 4,3,1,2 (meaning first preference is for the 4th motion below, etc...) (This example isn't my preference or a suggestion, I just rolled a D4. Yes, I'm that geeky). I think if I'm confused, I might not be the only one. Thanks in advance. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I was one of the drafting arbs for this case and can answer what was going through our heads at the time. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 20:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
In short, I concur with Nosebagbear on burden, and with so many others here in having concerns about how sweeping these DS have been. In detail, I think this should be narrowed to 1960 onward (so it starts with JFK's presidential election campaign – there's always going to be fringe conspiracy-theory nonsense about JFK), or to an even later date, maybe starting with 1988 (George H. W. Bush's campaign), but start no later than 1992 (Bill Clinton; the Clintons are still the subject of a lot of fringe conspiracy-theory nonsense themselves). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:58, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't comment, but some of the arb comments below seem like speculation to me. Rather than guess what years are troublesome, why not look at WP:AELOG? There's years of knowledge of how DS is actually used (minus the intimidation of templates) in that log - practically everything one needs not just for larger DS reform, but also to make evidence-based determinations in small requests like this.
At a skim, I see no page restrictions based inherently on 20th century politics. Too lazy to check the editor sanctions but I'm guessing same applies there. 1980s or even up to the Clinton era makes sense to me. It can always be changed back if this turns out to have been too restrictive. Guerillero was there a particular reason for 1932? The PD doesn't give much insight. ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 14:29, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I am not seeing any problem with 1932. If there is no disruption between 1932 and, say, 1960, then there will be no enforcement. So why take an arrow out of Admins' quiver for 1932-1960 in case it's ever needed? Bigger picture I am not convinced the current setup is worth the trouble in American Politics. Arbcom principles are basically WP policy that Admins can enforce regardless of DS. The page restrictions in AP add little or nothing. SPECIFICO talk 00:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Katie, on 1933ff articles with no problem, I don't see that there are page restrictions or extra notices. For example, [27] SPECIFICO talk 15:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
To get to this noticeboard and create this much discussion; seems to me that a serious problem with the current arbitrary date being any more problematic than a new arbitrary date need be detailed. And, with all due respect to DGG, I won’t believe that Jan. 20 will mark a milestone in ending the current political millstones until that occurs. O3000 ( talk) 01:38, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I'd support 1992 per Egg's data. "Anybody can edit"/"not a bureaucracy" should be the default position. Any restrictions on that should be only as broad as necessary. The data shows that before 1992 is not necessary, as there has only been one case prior to 1992, out of 248 total. Levivich harass/ hound 03:17, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
It would be better for the committee to decide this here and now by motion than to take up the editor time required for an RFC. If the range of options are 1960, 1980, or 1992, I submit that it won't make a big difference which date the committee picks. If the community disagrees with the committee's decision, someone can start an RFC to overturn it. But if the committee picks a new date and everyone is fine with it, it'll save a bunch of editors a bunch of time. Setting the scope of DS is a core function that editors elect arbs to perform, so I don't think it's a stretch to say the community would trust Arbcom to change the AP2 start date without requiring an RFC. Levivich harass/ hound 04:36, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I think pushing it back to 1960 makes the most sense. Keeping it at 1960 rather than 1980 ensures that Vietnam and Watergate would remain under the scope, among other topics. 1980 would be the furthest I would go, because anything later would omit the Reagan years, which have always been a point of controversy. -- Calidum 15:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
We should be cautious about changing the date too much. It's important to consider that, just because recent editing history may show a narrower, more recent, focus to disputes, that doesn't mean that users won't find reasons to dispute about earlier history as events unfold in the near future. There is, in particular, the likelihood of disputes over whether or not Trump represents a short-term phenomenon, or whether he is the culmination of decades of political trends. Does it go back to Nixon's southern strategy? To the Red Scare? To Jim Crow? En-Wiki faces a particular challenge in that there is a significant political movement based upon deliberate falsification of reality. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 18:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
While I definitely think the date could be changed, I'd be cautious about relying exclusively on data about existing disruption or sanctions; one thing to worry about is that if the cut-off is too recent, users topic-banned or restricted in the AP2 area might just shift to disrupting articles somewhat earlier in the timeline. Also, having the restrictions be "intuitive" is absolutely valuable to both editors and administrators - they should be able to guess at a glance whether something falls under it. Based on this I strenuously oppose 1988, which is utterly arbitrary and has no special meaning or relevance to the topic area - if we're going to change the scope, 1980 is a much more significant date and will be far more intuitive. The restriction shouldn't be drastically broader than necessary, sure; but it should also be logical and shouldn't leave things outside its scope that are plainly connected in a single topic area. -- Aquillion ( talk) 15:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
From Eggishorn's analysis, 1992 is the issue and almost nothing before that is causing a problem. I almost think it could be 2000 with only a very few concerns before that. And, wow. That is an amazing look at American politics. Someone needs to write a scholarly paper using that analysis. —valereee ( talk) 21:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
ArbCom, grab the bull by the horns, and eliminate DS/AE altogether. It doesn't work - it opens the door to WP:POV creep, and there's really nothing that happens in a controversial topic area that an admin cannot handle normally to stop disruption. All DS/AE does is make it more difficult to reverse a bad judgment call - not saying all are bad judgment calls but I do believe POV creep is an issue. Let the admins do their job normally - if one of them misjudges, another admin will let them know and a compromise can be worked out less any wheel warring. Unilateral actions based on an admins sole discretion has created animosity, confusion, has cost us good editors, solves nothing, and wastes our time as we're seeing here now. That's my inflated nickel's worth, and yes, I'm biased because of what has happened to me. Atsme 💬 📧 19:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
1992 seems to be an entirely appropriate cutoff to me. It's not as if we can't go back and adjust it (or apply existing administrative tools) if a bunch of issues suddenly bubble up around Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. BD2412 T 21:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm content with whatever cutoff year yas choose. Just be sure to let me know, what that new cutoff year is. GoodDay ( talk) 21:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I think that what makes a few topics particularly and intractably contentious is when there when there is a current real-world contest on where persons from one side feel that their side can gain or lose based on what's in the related Wikipedia article. Also where enough English Wikipedia editors are motivated to that level. The next consideration is that measures such as this should only be as broad as needed. Besides a chilling effect, like with other Wikipedia mechanisms, tools designed to avoid warfare often becomes tools OF warfare. Regarding American politics, the core of the battle is elections and current specific hotly debated items and culture wars. By that criteria, I think that moving it up to 1980 would still encompass the particularly and intractably contentious areas. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 14:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
As someone who worked on and voted on the existing remedy, I can tell you why I argued for this date specifically -- so that the entirety of Social Security would be covered. It was not a date picked out of thin air; while most of the New Deal is not a major issue in the modern climate, at the time (and in the years preceding the decision) proposals on the reform of Social Security were a fairly big deal, and the impending exhaustion of the trust fund in the next couple years might bring it back up again. I haven't been nearly active enough lately to offer anything beyond this historical "What was arbcom thinking?" footnote, though! Courcelles ( talk) 01:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1988 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1988 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
In Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)"), the Arbitration Committee authorized standard discretionary sanctions for "all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people". The Committee is now considering amending the 1932 cutoff date, and invites the community to hold an advisory RfC regarding what change, if any, should be made to it.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1980 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1980 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1992 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1992 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Enacted - Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 22:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)