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Comment by Moreschi

Eastern Europe is something of a battleground (understatement of the decade), and I'm sure everyone's heartily sick of the sight of this sort of thing (not another case...), but I don't think this can be ducked. Yes, ANI does not equate to dispute resolution, but I think the Arbitration Committee is needed here to sort things out. This has been coming for a while. Moreschi Talk 18:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

  • Note to arbitrators: yes, something can be done here. Yes, we already know (I see that the Piotrus case has just closed) that Eastern Europe is all screwball, but in this instance there are some genuinely worrying accusations of atrocious user conduct that deserve investigation. I don't think this can be fully fixed, and perhaps it never will, but at the moment the Committee is better placed to attempt some sort of fix than the wider community. Moreschi Talk 12:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Oh, for heaven's sake, that was a comment on Eastern European Wikipedia articles. Do get a sense of proportion. Also, no legal threats. Attitudes such are yours as doubtless part of the problem. Moreschi Talk 16:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Martintg

This seems like a snowjob. No evidence of any real dispute resolution such as mediation or RFC being attempted by the complainant in the first instance. Do we really want to short circuit this and go straight to Arbitration for what is essentially a content dispute over the interpretation of Soviet history? Martintg 20:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

  • Thanks to Bishonen for resurrecting Petri Krohn's RFC, which btw was deleted due to insufficient prior mediation before bringing case for RFC/U. As an aside, it must be said there was a good faith attempt at mediation by one side during the existance of the RFC/U, thanks to the efforts of DrKiernan, but was subsequently ignored by the other party, as indicated here [1]. However, I don't see how Petri Krohn's RFC could in any way be possibly used as a substitute for an RFC on Digwuren. Irpen wasn't a party in that previous RFC and Petri Krohn is not a party to this current RfA. The kernel of this complaint is the interpretation of Soviet history, in this instance concerning Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, the rest, such as the so called "Tartu based accounts" and groundless accusations of computer intrusion is just fanciful embellishment with no basis in fact. Certainly Digwuren's behaviour is comparably better than Petri Krohn's as documented in his disqualified RFC/U.
  • If Irpen was serious about this he should have taken it to mediation as a first step, therefore I propose this RfA be declined and mediation attempted first. Martintg 22:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Irpen mentions the nebulous "Tartu based accounts" in the title of this RfA and as one of the parties to this RfA. Who are they? It's not clear to me, what has this mysterious group allegedly done to warrant ArbCom intervention? Where is the evidence of mediation, as required by ArbCom when groups are involved. And the accusation of intrusion and hacking an admin's computer, as if a regular editor would know the IP address of an admin, what a complete joke. This RfA is ill considered, malformed and premature, and a waste of time until other dispute resolution methods are exhausted. Martintg 10:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • p.s. Digwuren appears to be presently offline, so I doubt he is even aware of this RfA. Martintg 10:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • In regard to RJ CG's statement in regard to "co-ordinated effort", perhaps he should realise his edits may be against concensus. Estonians ought to have some idea of their own history and be able to form a consensus without having to "co-ordinate". The notion that Estonian editors are somehow massively disrupting and edit warring Estonian related articles and should thus be punished is truly mind boggling. Digwuren was blocked for a week for attempting to expand an article anti-Estonian sentiment, thanks to the "Administrator with balls" FayssalF Since when did blocks become a tool in resolving content disputes? Why wasn't he given the opportunity for mediation for this particular article, rather than a block without warning out of the blue? Martintg 06:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Response to Petri Krohn

"absolutely no contributions", !!! Wow, what an amazingly audacious lie! Digwuren is one of the most competent and balanced editors in Wikipedia, with over 4000 edits [2] to his credit since joining in May. A great contribution by any standard. As for you claims of incivility, it is certainly a case of the pot calling the kettle black! Martintg 23:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

What I would like this arbitration case to achieve if accepted?

As per Alexia and Sander, continued unsubstantiated accusations of sock puppetry by the so-called "Tartu based accounts" is also uncivil and a slur, plus FayssalF admonished for slurring Digwuren's reputation with unsubstantiated accusations of computer hacking and intrusion [3]. Martintg 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Response to Ghirla's statement

Ghirla's anti-Estonia sentiment is very much a reflection of the view many Russophones hold towards eSStonia. It is a rather extreme view that has no place here in Wikipedia. As an aside, Digwuren's one week block which Ipen cites as evidence of bad behaviour was for defending the article anti-Estonian sentiment, against someone who was blanking and turning it into a redirect [4], a redirect that Irpen himself subsequently objected to [5]. Ghirla's idea of a central committee on Eastern Europe-related topics is positively frightening, and I would oppose as it goes against the whole philosophy of Wikipedia. Martintg 21:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Question by GRBerry

Would the proposed findings at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus/Proposed decision be sufficient (if so, reject the case), or is more needed?

Statement by FayssalF

I have to say that i've spent around 90 minutes to get all the following facts posted as they look below now. That's really a hard and unencyclopaedic task. I'd have rather gone editing. But well, for the benefit of Wikipedia? Hell, yes. There you go...

I have to agree w/ my fellow admin Moreschi in that Arbitration Committee's intervention is needed here to sort things out. Estonia-related articles have witnessed a massive edit warring w/o any attempt from any side to take that seriously and try to go through WP:DR. It has been a ground for multiple accusations from multiple parties.

Well, in brief. I was the admin who blocked Digwuren back on July 2007 as well as a couple of 2 other users which i'd identify as the "other side" in what follows.

Timeline

  • I can't recall the [AN/I thread] which lead to the following but i'll leave that to maybe someone else who can find the link. This is the link which i got from user:Irpen. That's the link and that's the one i referred to. One of the keys to this enigma is there.
  • On July 20, 2007, i've experienced some online intrusion attempts made against my machine (for what i could record, the experience lasted no more than a couple of hours). I've already got a C# userbox posted at my userpage. I am saying this responding to User:Suva's request to know about the IP in question. I am a programmer. I know about hacking but please don't accuse me of hacking anyone. The problem is that User:Suva insists in knowing about the exact location of the IP in question. No, that's IMPOSSIBLE as long as you are not an ADMIN. I've explained to everyone that any admin can contact me to know about this issue. Suva, i am an admin and admins are trusted by the community. Only an admin can get that kind of information. So please, stop insisting. I've already explained that it was not my intention to talk about that but since matters arrived to this point then i considered it is right to talk about it.

I could have easily blocked User:Ptrt indef as it is clear that the account has been created for a single purpose as explained above by User:Irpen. Anyways, this case would make that clear. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 22:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Petri Krohn (in reply to GRBerry)

The cases cannot be compared. User:Piotrus is one of Wikipedia's most valuable contributors. User:Digwuren on the other hand had absolutely no contributions to article space when I took up the issue in June. (See: ArbCom or block?) Since then there has been notable improvement in his contributions, but his uncivility and disrespect for WP:NPOV have remained. -- Petri Krohn 23:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by JdeJ

I must agree that Digwuren is a particularly unhelpful contributor. Looking at other comments here, it's obvious that he's defended by some other Estonians as Alexia Death (whom I consider a very good editor) for taking part in conflicts regarding Estonia. For the same reason, it's clear that those who have held the opposite views on some of these matters aren't too fond of him. Personally, I find some articles where I disagree with his opinions and others where I do disagree, but that's beside the point because: regardless of whether I think his opinions are right or wrong, I always find his way to behave out of line. My first contact ever was when he left a message on my talk page, calling me a "crackpot" [6]. The reason he did so was that I had dared to request a source for the claim that Estonians are the oldest people in Europe. After that, I've seen him revert pages he doesn't like with no explanations given, I've seen him call other users vandals for reverting his own edits etc. So the user is a consant POV-pusher who often attacks other users. JdeJ 07:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment on Digwuren and his woes

In reply to Alexia's statement, I'm not familiar with the user Ghirlas but it's true that I've been surprised by Petri Krohn's actions many times. Looking at the topics in which Digwuren and Petri have both been involved, my sympathies have almost always been with Digwuren as I consider Petri to be engaged with very weird kind of [ [7]]. Having said that, it does nothing to defend Digwuren. I can understand him becoming frustrated, but that is no reason for him to start acting in a disruptive and uncivil way himself. There are people you don't like at Wikipedia. If you cannot deal with that without copying their behaviour, Wikipedia might not be the best place. So I understand the frustration he must have felt but I can't see it being very relevant to this discussion. JdeJ 17:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by RJ CG

I would like to bring to community's attention another example of coordinated efforts of group in question [8], see times of edits [9], [10], [11], [12]. Within 3 minutes after one member of the team exhaused his revert limit (and within a minute after I, being an author of a change not to the goup's liking, reverted), another member of the group popped up, failed to identify his changes as a revert in edit history but did not contribute anything BUT a revert. RJ CG 16:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by Sander Säde

  • "Behind Tartu University firewall" accusation is ridiculous and can be easily verified by a checkuser. I have never edited Wikipedia from Tartu University - I've even been in Tartu only twice during last year, both times less then three hours and without using a computer. I guess that Martintg (from Australia) is also flying daily to Tartu? Tartu University cache servers are 193.40.5.245 ( talk · contribs) and 193.40.5.100 ( talk · contribs) (both IP's from DNS queries). Afaik, all Tartu University IP's should start with 193.40.* (hey, I just remembered my old IP from while I was in Uni, 193.40.8.80 ( talk · contribs). Sad, isn't it? I can remember an IP I haven't used in years...).
  • As for RJ CG's accusations of "coordinated efforts" - I have my watchlist as a RSS feed in FF live bookmarks, I tend to check it every 15..30 min or so when I am using the computer. Also, some time ago I wrote a script, cleverly named "Estonian articles to watchlist page" that utilizes AJAX to display changes in all WikiProject Estonia articles on top of your watchlist. Said script can be easily changed to support any WikiProject or category. That helps people easily to see changes in WP:E-related articles without a need to add them to watchlist.
For both "Korps! Tartuensis" and "coordinated efforts", I think that next user who accuses us to be sock/meatpuppets or coordinating "attacks" outside en.wikipedia without rock solid evidence must apologize. If he fails to do so, I think that he should be warned by a block.
  • Now, as for hacking accusation, I see no way to verify that it actually happened. Even if it did, there is no way to link it with any Wikipedian - as none of so-called "Korp! Tartuensis" is not an admin and therefore just would not know FayssalF's IP. I recommend that he creates a checkuser case with all of us and the IP. However, note that checkuser admin must do a reverse DNS and actually check what IP's are proxies (major ISP's redirect all traffic through proxy servers) and what are geographically close to each-other. Last checkuser cases involving Estonia were ridiculous, accusing basically all Estonian editors to be sockpuppets. Note, that I am unaware what data do admins doing checkuser queries see - or how knowledgeable they are of networking in general.
  • And finally, to Digwuren. I fully agree with Alexia and Martintg - Digwuren followed the behavioral patterns of users such as Ghirlandajo and Petri Krohn (I could mention few other users, some who have given their statements here as well). There is no forgiving for behavior such as this, for all three of them. But, there seems to be a special "out-of-the-jail card" if you have a lot of edits - and Digwuren does not have yet 20000+ edits. Others do.
However, he always sources his edits, is fully willing to overturn his own edits when new sources contradict them and follows NPOV guideline by trying to give a neutral viewpoint and sources from both "sides". He is also willing to discuss controversial edits in talk pages. All that cannot be said by far most Wikipedia editors. If you follow his edits, then you can see how he gradually became more and more frustrated when other editors (so-called "other side" or "opponents") are making unsourced or one-sided edits - or even insert clear falsehood to the articles.
In many ways it is Digwuren, who revived WikiProject Estonia - although I wish us WP:E editors could have more time to actually contribute, instead of wasting our time to patrol for pro-Soviet/anti-Estonian edits and be involved in cases such as this. Digwuren has contributed to great many articles and if he stops behaving in the same way as those Estophobic users, I see him as a very valuable editor to Wikipedia - in future, perhaps among most valuable contributors. He is relentless in chasing sources and improving articles.
I've said it before, my recommendation is for an admin to warn Digwuren about his edit summaries - and clearly state that he will be blocked unless he stops those. It might be useful, though, if an uninvolved administrator follows all changes in WP:E articles for a while - if not for nothing else, then to actually witness what we have to go through daily.
  • As for the "Statement by non-involved Ghirla" below, I think that is the biggest pile of hypocrisy I've seen on Wikipedia. Far from being "non-involved", he has been the biggest "inspiration" for Digwuren when it comes to incivility. He is accusing (once again, without evidence) of sock/meatpuppets, being a fascist/neo-nazi, tendentious editing ("neo-Nazi flavoured revisionism" - which strangely enough, has been published in scientific journals... Those evil Estonian Nazis must have taken over those as well.). How long will this have to go on until he will be warned for personal attacks and incivility?
Ghirla has one excellent idea, though - committee on Eastern Europe-related topics. I would include Baltics to the scope of that committee as well - apparently Ghirla forgot, that Estonia (and rest of the Baltics) is a part of Northern Europe, not Eastern Europe. Committee on Eastern bloc, perhaps? Committee such as that is badly needed - to check that edits follow valid sources.
What I would like this arbitration case to achieve if accepted?
  1. End for "Korps! Tartuensis" and sockpuppet accusations, unless someone actually manages to find some proof. So far there is none. Any editors continuing such attacks to be blocked.
  2. Rules must apply equally for all. Huge edit count is not an excuse to insult other editors, disrupt Wikipedia or misbehave. Civility is not optional.
  3. An uninvolved administrator (or more then one) to keep an eye on changes in WikiProject Estonia articles. Hopefully that would be enough to stop this smear campaign.
  4. Digwuren to be warned - and if he doesn't change his ways, blocked for a month. Same applies for all other involved editors - warning for any signs of incivility and block if that is continued.

Sander Säde 19:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC) (updated 19:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)) reply

Statement by probably non-involved Ghirla

The Digwuren case is crystal clear. If there is a troll in the project, he is one. User:Molobo was blocked for a year for less serious revert-warring sprees and boorishness. I have seen no useful edits from Digwuren, except provocations, taunting, and reverts. The leniency of the community to the obnoxious tendentious accounts is appaling. Before Digwuren's appearance in the project, Estonia-related topics were the only quiet haven in the Eastern Europe-related segment of the project. He has effectively turned Wikipedia:WikiProject Estonia into a hate group. An attack page against Petri Krohn is a good example of what it's all about. Given the number of vocal meatpuppets, only ArbCom may realistically ban him from the site, for a year at least.

I don't consider myself a party to this case. I'm not interested in Estonia and I don't give a hoot about Estonia-related topics, but I cannot help being alarmed about the way in which the dispute has evolved. A weekly diarrhea of sterile ANI threads is particularly distracting. As soon as I opine in favour of deleting an Estonia-related tendentious page, I have to face harrassment and provocative remarks ("a clearly bad-faith vote", etc) from an indetermine number of Estonian accounts. Briefly put, their strategy is: 1) to make a provocative edit and to wait for my angered reply; 2) to report the perceived "infraction" on the administrators' noticeboard; 3) to repeat the complaint again and again, one after another, so as to make the thread appear as long and beefy as possible. Some of the dormant Estonian accounts instantly resume their activity once they see me cast an Estonia-related vote, prompting me to defend myself on the administrators' noticeboard for hours. I can't spend all of my wikitime debunking allegations of Estonia-based accounts, especially as I have no interest in anything related to Estonia. This relentless campaign of public harassment made me remove all Estonia-related articles from my watchlist.

I infer from this activity that there is simply no way of countering POV-pushing on this scale, involving a dozen accounts, most of them based in the same institution and recruiting friends in real life. You may neutralize a revert warrior or two or three, but not a group of determined users who share the same real-life background and exhibit divergent patterns of behaviour. I really don't think ArbCom may devise a remedy against this sort of disruption. We are thinking of some sort of committee on Eastern Europe-related topics that would include a trusted wikipedian from each nation. Such a committee could take care of mild content arbitration, that is, of determining whether a complaint has some merit before bringing it to the attention of the entire community on WP:ANI, WP:RfAr, or elsewhere. The ArbCom's examination of the proposal is very welcome. -- Ghirla -трёп- 12:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Bishonen

There is no RFC on Digwuren to point the ArbCom to (and it's no wonder people can't face starting one). There is, however, an RFC from June 2007 on User:Petri Krohn, brought and certified (inadequately) by Digwuren, Suva, Alexia Death, and E.J.. This RFC was deleted after 5-6 days, by DrKiernan, for want of good-faith attempts at dispute resolution, but before then it was used for lively discussion of the issues at stake here, especially on the talkpage. As RFCs will, it scrutinized the behavior of both sides, and the accusations of Digwuren et. al. against Petri Krohn throw light on their own practices. Therefore I think it serves quite a bit of the same purpose as an RFC on Digwuren would do. I have temporarily undeleted it so it can be referred to for this purpose. Bishonen | talk 10:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC). reply

Statement by Suva

I myself have stopped editing for all. And am trying to talk us out of the situation. Digwuren is one of the few people who still tries to edit and haven't stood back like most others. Don't know if it's good or bad. But I can fully understand him. One thing is sure though, we can't get anywhere with editwarring, neither are any kinds of blocks going to help much, only upset people more. I myself call all the parties for a debate or just chat in IRC or MSN, maybe we could settle our differences in more direct communication, or atleast find better ways to continue. Suva 07:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Sockpuppet accusations

The main editors, Sander Säde, Digwuren, Alexia Death are all real people and more or less known in estonia IT circles. They are also enough normal people so it is highly unlikely they have any sockpuppets. About meatpuppetry, there seems to be some polarization going on where people align on sides and vote accordingly.

At the same time, if someone says "Police beated peaceful people on streets" most estonians who were on tallinn or viewed the TV live broadcasts would get upset and revert. It doesn't need any meatpuppetry if someone writes blatant lies and people who has seen the truth with his own eyes cares to disagree with him.

Suva 16:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comments by uninvolved Vassyana

I believe that the Piotrus case is sufficient to set bounds for this dispute. It specifically places the articles in question under probation and grants a general amnesty for most users, with a stringent call for immediate compliance with Wikipedia rules. It empowers sysops to deal with continued edit warring, or other behavioral issues, sharply and decisively. Since the checkuser results have been inconclusive, there is no demonstration of substantive attempts to resolve the dispute and bad faith accusations are abundant, this case should probably be rejected. A possible exception may be if the arbitrators wish to specifically examine the behaviour surrounding this dispute or of particular users, to determine if there should be exceptions in this instance to the general amnesty being offered by the Piotrus decision. Otherwise, this case seems well-covered by the proposed decision for the preexisting case. Just some thoughts. *hands out grains of salt* Vassyana 09:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comments of probably involved Alex Bakharev

I want to ask arbitrators to accept the case there are a few reasons why I think it is worth valuable arbitrator's time:

  1. The first reason is personal, User:Erik Jesse alleged that I have improperly used administrative tools in the Estonia-related disputes. Obviously, I want to either clear my name or be desysopped.
  2. The second reason is the allegations by User:FayssalF that Digwuren attempted to hack his computer. I think the allegations are serious and by there natire require some confidentiality. I do not see any other body other than arbcom could either confirm or deny the allegations.
  3. The third reason is Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Digwuren and Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/DLX. A large group of Estonian editors were identified as identical as far as Check User is concerned. It is the third case in my career as an admin then I was able to unblock editors blocked by the results of a "confirmed" check user case. In the previous two cases the condition of the unblocking was that the suspected multiple accounts never edited the same article again. This case is different many of the suspected accounts are clearily belongs to different people. Still there constantly surface a number of new accounts that jump directly into the Revert wars, XfDs, or AN/I discussions and then disappear. I guess the Checkuser of them will be useless. Still some sanity must be kept. Can we decide that in Estonia-related themes any user with less than say 500 edits is discouraged from reversions and !voting? To be fair lets have the same rule for all participants.
  4. The fourth reason is that many admins fail to persuade Digwuren to label good-faith contributions of the established users as vandalism. In the long run it is very annoying. It might help to have some parole on such edit summaries.
  5. The fifth reason is the usual bunch of the problems that many Easter European edit wars have: stalking User:Petri Krohn, absurd near trollish edits on Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, etc. I think application of the Piotrus remedies might be helpful

Digiwuren seems to be a useful editor, who generates some content. I am strongly against preventing him doing good job. On the other hand he is very disruptive and drains energy from many very productive editors. This disruption should be somehow stopped Alex Bakharev 15:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comments of probably involved Grafikm

Digwuren's case is, all political considerations set aside, a clear disruption to a huge sector of Wikipedia. 3RR violations, total NPOV ignorance, personal attacks, trolling, stalking, possible sock/meatpuppetry, you name it, you got it. He's already got a sheet as long as my arm and shows no intention of changing his attitude. Alas, some users support him purely out of ridiculous political reasons and prefer breaking WP rules rather than following them.

Alas as well, it would seem that ANI board and community discussion are not enough anymore to sort such a clear-cut case out. That is why I believe the ArbCom should accept this case. However I must insist that it is infinitely less complicated that Piotrus case, since the Wikipedia rules' violations are so blatant.

Finally, to answer Uninvited's question (even if I'm not Irpen): Digwuren is a classic case of a problematic editor that admins are unwilling, for whatever reasons they might have, to deal with. So the case should IMNSHO be about his behaviour and obviously about puppetry as well. It should also perhaps be about personal attacks made by other users, such as the trolling and offensive statement made in this very case by this Erik Jesse guy. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 17:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by Termer

In my opinion the case here is a politically motivated attempt to shut off the Tartu University WP accounts in general. My opinion is based on the pattern of political attacks against the articles on WP concerning the Baltic countries, Poland etc. Regarding the case against the accused directly: Even though in my opinion he/she could slow down a little while fighting the viewpoints on WP that in my opinion belong to the Radical nationalism in Russia, I appreciate his/her efforts made by protecting the related articles against the attacks.

  • Suggestions to Digwuren. Please consider not to react accordingly even if provoked. Please consider that in the end of the day, it’s not going to make any difference in the real life out there if the POV of your political opponents is going to dominate an article on WP overnight. So, please just take it easy, every contributor to the related articles is valuable on WP and it would be a great loss if an editor who can spell in Greek [13] and has shown competence in the history of his country could be discredited on the basis of the accusations listed above. Thanks-- Termer 09:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • I second Termer's advice. The facts can speak for themselves, there is no need to respond to baiting. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by Balcer

Accusations that reduce one to being just a member of a rogue group of editors are among the most painful one can encounter in Wikipedia. The claim that some users discussed here are just "Tartu based accounts" is an extremely serious one. It should be throughly investigated, and if found to be false, the editors who made it should be severely reprimanded.

Let me also make another point, one that some might easily miss. Estonia is a relatively small country of only 1,3 million people. As such, it has very few universities (see List of universities in Estonia). By far the largest and most significant is the University of Tartu. So, making a reasonable assumption that university students are particularly prone to editing Wikipedia, it would not be surprising at all, and definitely not sinister, if a significant number of Wikipedians in Estonia were somehow connected to that university. It would then follow that what some are trying to paint as an evil conspiracy of a fringe group based in some obscure institution is in fact a completely natural and entirely innocent phenomenon. Balcer 04:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC) reply


Statement of probably non-involved Hillock65

I have to admit off the bat that I am not familiar with User:Digwuren or any other Estonian editors and have made only a couple of edits related to the Baltic or Estonian topics. However, I do know very well the other side of this argument and have dealt with many of them, and not only in this WP. I have been here for almost a year, wrote several articles, one of them was featured in DYK but soon had to abandon this community in part because of the atmosphere that had been created here. No, I don't want to name them cartel USSR forever!, as someone did above, but some of them are definitely well organized and are actively pushing their own agenda and what is most disturbing, harass and intimidate whoever stands in their way. And I certainly am familiar with User:Irpen and User:Ghirlandajo, who not only edit in tandem and pounce on their opponents in tandem, but tend to use the same vocabulary: "Sterile edit-warrior, disruptive edit, edit warrior". Mind you, those are standard accusations against editors whom they don't like. That is only if the editors are more or less established, the new editors almost by default are called sock- and meat-puppets irrespective of whether there is proof or not. That Irpen has a clear agenda at Wikipedia, even he doesn't make any bones about it: To start with, very few editors can claim a greater credit for keeping the Ukrainian nationalism out of the wikipedia articles than myself. -- User:Irpen 22:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC) [14]. And he concedes that he finds nothing wrong with it either [15]. Not that it is wrong to fight against a nationalism per se, but one only has to wonder if he claims the same exploits in fighting the Russian nationalism of his friends, to which Polish, Estonian or Ukrainian editors can testify as well. Irpen does not hesitate to mention his mission in this community and moreover he works on it every day. Recently I have been an object of his attacks and constant complaints at the WP:ANI just for trying to step in a content dispute. Him and his friends have assumed virtual ownership of Eastern European articles and don't tolerate any dissent whatsoever. The Kievan Rus' article is the clear example of how all this works. There is no room for WP:BRD when Irpen and his friends are around, his clear message to myself and User:Balcer who was trying to reason with him at talk page was tantamount to asking to submit the changes for his approval at the talk page before he allows it to be published in the article Talk:Kievan Rus'#Infobox. That was supposed to be the only way to deal with an introduction of an infobox. Mind you, not a substantial change of the story, but an infobox! And his main objections to it were, that modern Ukrainian symbols resemble too much the Rus ones in the infobox (per his mission statement in bold above). It exemplifies the virtual ownership of articles ( WP:OWN) that him and his friends have established in WP. So, I am not at all surprised that Estonian or any other editors might have been subjected to the same kind of treatment. I don't envy the ArbCom's task, as the East European topics in opinions of many have become a virtual mine-field. One of the admins, who thankfully only on the second day had enough courage to deal with Irpen's behaviour explained quite clearly that he was not going to get involved in the East Europen/Former Soviet topics. Given the sorry state of affairs there and viciousness with which opponents are harassed, who can blame him? I hope ArbCom can find a solution at least to rein in the pro-Russian zealots, who prevent other users from participating in the project. -- Hillock65 12:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Pēters J. Vecrumba

If I have the energy, I will go back to find diffs. This is a typical pattern of attack on Wikipedia. Antagonize Eastern European editors to the point they comment on the pro-(official)Russian viewpoints, aka, Stalinist propaganda living on in the post-Soviet era, for example, all Latvians are Nazis, the Baltics invited the Red Army and were never occupied, ad nauseum. Then attack those editors for making those comments. Frankly, after a review of edits, I quite agree with Digwuren's characterization which Irpen cites as the first piece of "evidence" against him.

We see endless attacks on users and articles. Since the attacks on articles never succeed (since the articles are based on fact), the next behavior is to tar and feather editors who stick in the craw of those who advocate some other position.

Of all the editors on the other side of the fence from me, so to speak, I have the most respect for Irpen because he is consistent in his position and his edits. But I am sorry to see him get on the editor-attack bandwagon. The Cold War had found a new home on Wikipedia. The answer is not to punish those who react to provocation, the answer is to punsh the provocateurs. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply

  • P.P.S. My solution is to disallow all arbitrations/mediations/etc. for six months so that all editors on both "sides" of historic "interpretation" of Eastern European events can focus on editing. That includes citing reliable sources, not simply tagging things as POV with no explanation--if you want to tag something, tag specific places with a dated {{fact}} tag. This endless torrent of accusations has to stop. Good, honest, editors with much to contribute have been driven away from editing Eastern European related articles by this sort of activity. And all of those editors have been victims of the camp accusing Eastern Europeans of nationalistic POV-pushing. And why is that? Because they got fed up and disgusted with the POV pushing and slurs that Wikipedia indulges. (Including not admonishing people for comments that the majority of Latvians were all too glad for the opportunity to pick up rifles and kill Jews.) The only way we will return to editing is to enforce a moratorium on these sorts of actions. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply
    • Instead, on Irpen's user page there appear two awards from the editor, Grafikm_fr, who made those (majority of Latvians eager to kill Jews) comments. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Response to Ghirlandajo
  • Ghirlandajo fails to mention that Petri Krohn (despite his excellent editing elsewhere) labels as a "Holocaust denier" anyone who paints Soviet WWII activities as less than liberating and glorious. If that is not POV provocation, I don't know what is.
  • There's a much simpler solution as I've suggested, put a moratorium on these actions and give editors 6 months to put facts where their mouths are.
  • And delete content from Eastern European articles which is not related to the article topic, e.g., Bronze Soldier of Tallinn has become a forum for accusing Estonians of being Nazis--which has NOTHING to do with the statue, the movement of the statue, or the direct reactions to the movement of the statue. There are plenty of appropriate articles already to expand on historical background without making each new article a battleground. The contention that Baltic articles are being turned into hate groups--of what, exactly?--is absurd. If anything, it is the reputation of the Baltic and Eastern European nations that is under attack here on Wikipedia.
  • I welcome a debate with any editor based on reputable sources. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Response to Petri Krohn

  • Regarding "Since then there has been notable improvement in his contributions, but his uncivility and disrespect for WP:NPOV have remained." As constant as the day follows night, one can always count on Petri finding a new (Eastern European) article disparaging Soviet glory and accusing everyone of Holocaust denial. If that is not the grossest violation of WP:NPOV, I don't know what is. If Eastern European editors have taken up the mantle of following Petri's contributions to insure they can counter his accusations of "Holocaust denial" in a timely fashion, that's hardly "stalking" as has been described. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Response to Irpen and Petri Krohn

  • Let us not forget this microcosm: derision by Irpen followed by tagging by Petri (and subsequent invocation of Nazism) regarding the Soviet occupation of Romania (from [16])
How could this pearl have been missed? Soviet occupation of Romania by several users. Enjoy! -- Irpen 08:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I have labeled this as {{totallydisputed}} -- Petri Krohn 01:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
     
...and Petri's classic comment that if you call liberators occupiers, then you can't be told apart from a Nazi [17]. Exactly what is the basis for tolerating this behavior and allowing these editors to attack others with apparent impunity? —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Addendum - Irpen smear campaign

  • I see Irpen has wasted no time in furthering his smear campaign agains Digwuren in gross violation of "Discuss article content, not other editors." See his comment on this talk page, describing an article as "created by a notoriously disruptive user" (Digwuren). Irpen now states his charges as objective verified fact, frankly, masquerading as ArbCom et al.--only someone in a position of authority would denounce an editor as they tag their work. This is not about editing, it is about smearing anyone who stands up to anti-Baltic and anti-Eastern European POV pushing done in the guise of defending neutrality and objectivity against rabid "nationalists." —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC) reply

Addendum - Proposal

Let's see, how much time have we already wasted here? We have all seen the charges and counter-charges before, all from the same people, instigated by editors who believe "Soviet" + "occupation" is judgemental at best, Nazist at worst, or, on the other side, by editors who feel the occupation disputing side should produce some sources or shut up.
   I propose that all editor-related RfAs/RfCs/mediations/et al. involving editors with a proven history of participation/edits in Baltic and Eastern European topics be summarily banned for a year, from "both" sides because this is a monumental waste of time which further polarizes both sides leading to ever uglier confrontations.
   I, for one, have pretty much lost all respect I had for Irpen as an editor--as opposed to coming to understand his position better. The good news is that I still feel this is a loss. The bad news is that after a month or so more of this, I will feel absolutely no sense of loss at all. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Piotrus

I'll keep it short since others (Martintg, Termer, Balcer, Hillock65, Pēters J. Vecrumba), whose views I endorse, already said most of what needed to be said.

Yes, Digwuren lost a temper a few times - and paid the price. His behaviour doesn't seem to be more disrupive then that of many other users; if he has a fault it would be that of concentraiting on discussions, not content; I'd strongly advise him to start building an encyclopdia - this project is not a discussion forum. That said, since my ArbCom decided that such behavior is acceptable, Diwurgen is a saint by comparison in any case...

There is however another aspect of this ArbCom that deserves our attention: the editors whose POVs were challenged by Diwurgen, the same editors who launched this ArbCom and/or are active in building the case against him, trying not only to portray a slightly-problematic editor as a major troll, but apparently arguing - with no serious evidence - that there is either an entire cabal or some nefarious puppetmaster working against them. I wonder in how many ANI threads, DR proceedings and ArbComs certain editors must be mentioned, again and again, until somebody realizes they are one of the routes of our problem? Unfortunatly, considering their activity and knowledge of wikilawyering, I am afraid that the answer is: "in too many".--  Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus |  talk  01:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC) reply

In response to The Uninvited Co.'s query

What I would like the arbitration committee to do in this case is examine the evidence presented regarding all editors involved in editing Estonian-Russian related articles, such as Rein Lang (which is what has drawn me to this case). -- Deskana (talk) 21:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC) reply

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction

I request clarification of this Remedy. El C applied two blocks [18], [19], and over 24 hours later Thatcher131 places a notice of restriction [20]. Is the action of these two admins against the spirit of this particular remedy in that the notice of restriction should be applied first as a warning to that editor that any further violation may invoke an enforcement block, the intent being that the editor is given fair opportunity and chance to cease that particular behaviour? My concern is that the action of an over zealous admin may have driven a very productive editor away [21]. Martintg ( talk) 11:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Minor note: What did you expect when this botched ArbCom ended? I mean, here we are, with El_C, admin and Che Guevara (Communist) wannabe considered "uninvolved" when the whole issue here is not "Eastern Europe", but the heritage of Communism and Soviet Russian occupation. Not to mention that you have the same definition of the "conflict area" in the recent Anonimu ArbCom. Just take a look who is defending the Communist and Soviet POV-pusher User:Anonimu. It's the "uninvolved" Communist User:El_C and the Russian User:Irpen. Miraculous, isn't it. :) Dpotop ( talk) 12:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
In this case the block was issued because of this one single comment on a user's talk page [22], yet there is seemingly no action when grossly more disruptive behaviour is brought to light here Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#Dr._Dan_inflaming_Eastern_European_topics Martintg ( talk) 19:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Action has finally been taken. Martintg ( talk) 23:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The intent of the notice (not "warning") clause was to ensure that parties subject to sanctions would be informed of the existence of the general restriction prior to it being applied to them. Editors obviously aware of the restriction—notably, the parties to the case—are not meant to receive additional notifications. Kirill 13:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Kirill, so you are basically saying that the meaning of this remedy is that all and every single editor of EE topics, is already subject to this general restriction? So why is it worded "may be made subject to an editing restriction" if this is the case. So as editors of EE topics, we either all are subject to this editing restriction, or we all may be subject to the editing restriction given the appropriate notice, which is it? Most confusing. Should not every single editor of EE articles be now notified on their talk page that they are all subject to this general editing restriction? This need to be clarified. Martintg ( talk) 19:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The remedy says that if someone is uncivil, makes personal attacks, or assumed bad faith, then an administrator may make them the subject of an editing restriction (ie, a block). How is that confusing? Obviously not everyone is currently affected by such a restriction, as not everyone is blocked. Kirill already answered your question regarding notification: those that are unaware should be notified, those that are already aware need not be. -- Deskana (talk) 19:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Okay, thanks for the clarification. So who should start with this notification process, I suspect that there are a lot of regular EE editors who may not be aware of this General Restriction. I suppose this notification should be similar to this User_talk:Sander_Säde#Notice_of_editing_restrictions, which warns "future violations of the provisions of this warning are subject to blocking". Martintg ( talk) 20:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply

I'm sorry Deskana, I am still confused by this template {{subst:Digwuren enforcement}}, which you and Kirill must admit is structured as a warning notice, which must be logged in the appropriate place to take effect, according to the text below:

Notice of editing restrictions

Notice: Under the terms of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren, any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. Should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he or she may be blocked for up to a week for each violation, and up to a month for each violation after the fifth. This restriction is effective on any editor following notice placed on his or her talk page. This notice is now given to you, and future violations of the provisions of this warning are subject to blocking.

Note: This notice is not effective unless given by an administrator and logged here.


I am not wiki-lawyering here, I just think it is necessary to clarify this mechanism for the benefit of not only us editors at the coal face, but also the admins who have to administer this. Let's have some clarity here to ensure the smooth running of Wikipedia, that is all I ask. Martintg ( talk) 23:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Kirill, Deskana, not wanting to labour the issue, but there is a distinction between an editing restriction and a block, is there not? You both seem to be implying that that they are the same thing, the block is the editing restriction. But this is at odds with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Enforcement_by_block: "Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, they may be briefly blocked", an explicit distinction which Kirill himself drafted. I mean, there are all sorts of general editing restrictions in force, 3RR being one for example. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this suppose to operate thus:

  1. Misbehaviour -> Editing restriction placed via notice on user talk page and logged
  2. Further misbehaviour -> block applied and logged.

I know admins are encouraged to ignore the rules, but we do need clarification here before some over zealous admins begin driving good people off the project for the slightest infraction, as in the case of Wikipedia:WikiProject_Estonia coordinator User:Sander Säde. Martintg ( talk) 04:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Strictly speaking, you're correct. Keep in mind, though, that the main intent of the notification requirement is not to serve as a warning, per se; but, rather, to make sure that editors unaware of the existence of this remedy would not find themselves blocked without finding out about it beforehand. When the editor in question, having been a party to the actual case, is already well aware of the need to conduct themselves civilly, we're not going to crack down on admins for forgetting some of the paperwork. To be quite honest, anyone involved in the case has no excuse for being uncivil at this point; I think that we made it very clear that the poor behavior seen in this area is not acceptable. Kirill 05:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Fair enough. I'm not looking to have an admin flogged for forgotten paperwork, just clarification and guidance for the benefit of editors and admins alike, because this does apply to the entire Eastern Europe, broadly defined. It must be noted that User:Sander Säde did subsequently apologise in his block review request.
How ever it appears that in his exuberance User:El_C used this remedy (which is aimed at incivility) for blocking User:Alexia Death for basically revert warring [23]. The revert warring was over this comment [24], and to interpret this as incivility is an asumption of bad faith. In fact this comment is a salute to Ghirla for the tough battles of the past with well wishes for the future. Using this remedy for edit warring is an inappropriate, so therefore I request that User:Alexia Death's logging of her enforcement block and associated notification log be removed from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Enforcement_2. Martintg ( talk) 05:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Could you, Kirill, please comment on the fact that logging this block as enforcement block happened at least in my case 2 hours after the fact. Is this appropriate? See also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Daniel_Case. If logging blocks is allowed with this much delay it opens up venues for block laundry. I propose that blocks that are made as enforcement blocks must be logged immediately.-- Alexia Death the Grey ( talk) 06:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
This was apparently a case of forgotten "paperwork". Kirill has confirmed that for those who were not a party to the original case 1. Misbehaviour -> Editing restriction placed via notice on user talk page and logged, 2. Further misbehaviour -> block applied and logged. For those who were a party: both applied at the same time. Martintg ( talk) 06:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Yes, there seems to have been a fair amount of confusion regarding what exactly the remedy was. For future use, I've created Wikipedia:General sanctions to keep track of these wide-area remedies. I'd appreciate it if people could leave links to it where appropriate. Kirill 06:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
I am not talking about the notice. I was part of the case and I acknowledge it to be unnecessary. I talking about logging the block itself and requesting comment on delay in logging it as an enforcement block, witch I personally doubt it was.-- Alexia Death the Grey ( talk) 09:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia:General sanctions sounds like a good idea. I have taken the liberty to add the second Armenia-Azerbaijan case (with some rewording, for consistency) to it. I submit it to your and other members of the Committee's approval. El_C 09:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Good catch, but keeping the actual wording is probably the better approach, to reduce potential confusion. Kirill 14:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Thanks, Kirill. Please see my refractored comment here. El_C 14:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Thanks Kirill, one more clarification needed on applicability. This remedy is only applicable to EE topics right? I mean if it happens in areas outside EE, for example, an editor gets into a discussion with an admin on another admin's talk page and they start revert warring over the editor's comment "So these are "Durova-style" rules! LOL. I cant take Wikipedia seriously any more. This is ridiculous!", [25], [26], [27], [28], and rightly or wrongly that admin ends up blocking this editor as a result [29] (I've searched and searched but cannot find this alleged inflammatory comment "you guys could do with little sunshine in your lives"), is it appropriate that this block be logged under this particular remedy? Martintg ( talk) 11:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Hmm. The remedy, as written, is applicable to any editor working on EE topics, but places no limitations on where the actual incivility would need to occur. Given that a large part of the past problem was EE editors sniping at each other on user talk pages, noticeboards, etc. (often on topics unrelated to EE, but merely continuing personal fights that had started on EE matters months or years before), I think it's appropriate that editors subject to this remedy need to watch their behavior generally, not only on article talk pages or when directly engaged in article disputes.
(The comment is made here, incidentally.) Kirill 14:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
While it is true that the initial statement by Alexia on Ghirla's talk page (do we assume good or bad faith here?) was the trigger, it quickly descended into a personal conflict between Alexia and User:El_C spanning across several user's talk pages. I don't believe that Alexia or User:El_C have had any personal fights in the past related to EE. By no means was User:El_C blocking action uncontroversial as another admin overturned the un-noticed block (forgotten paperwork) as evidenced here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Daniel Case. User:El_C clearly states that the main reason for the block was for this subsequent dispute, not the original triggering event: [30]. Of course the irony here is that User:El_C himself was as much a contributor due to his own combative and inflamatory approach.
In what way inflammatory you may ask? People like us Kirill, who were brought up in comfortable USA or Australia where images of Che may be considered mere t-shirt art, need to be sensitive to the fact that many people suffered under communist rule in Eastern Europe. For example I read that in the Baltic states, almost everyone had some family member who was deported or otherwise repressed. It touched everyone. So when an admin with a " vanity page" consisting of figures associated with communist oppression and terrorism wades into a dispute involving Eastern Europe, not only is this highly provocative, but alarm bells start ringing as to the impartiality of this admin. This was the substance of this dispute that lead to Alexia's block. Would you trust the judgement of an admin with images of Adolf Hitler on their user page wading in and handing out blocks in a dispute regarding the Holocaust? This is same admin who saw no problem with the behaviour of the recently banned Anonimu, uncivilly branding those who brought the complaint as "ethno-nationalist editors", and exhibited continued assumption of bad faith against the unblocking admin in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Daniel Case. Common sense dictates that controversial admins of questionable partiality should not be involved resolution of EE disputes, particular given the extra powers afforded by this remedy.
Anyway, thanks again for your clarifications. Rather than continuing on here, I'll be putting together a case to address this issue of involved admins and will putting it before the Committee in due course for consideration. Cheers. Martintg ( talk) 00:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
These uninhibited attacks by this user, who feels it necessary to link to my user page five times in a single five-sentence paragraph, are nothing more than cheap theatrics. Of course, I am far from being a supporter of the Social imperialist Eastern European caricature-communist regimes, and of course I saw a problem with the the behaviour of Anonimu (still, he was ruthlessly attacked, too; just the Bonparate front, tens of socks). I already responded to many of these other distortions elsewhere at length. El_C 14:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
I cite: "far from being a supporter of the Social imperialist Eastern European caricature-communist regimes". Hm, the photo of Lenin on your page seems to say something else. In case you don't know, it was him who presided the imperialistic occupation of Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaidjan by the USSR. But imperialism was not his worst deed: He and his buddies created the Cheka and the widespread famine, and the politicide, a.s.o. Dpotop ( talk) 15:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
In conclusion, don't pretend to be an honest broker on these subjects. Dpotop ( talk) 15:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
In case you don't know. I have long ago ceased to respond to the crude, intentionally-insulting demagoguery of Dpotop. El_C 16:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
My formulation was based on an assumption of good faith from your part. Otherwise, I can't see how you could state on one side that you don't support imperialist communists, and on the other side support Lenin. Dpotop ( talk) 16:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
I also believe that such accusations of "demagoguery", "combativeness", a.s.o. would have ended in a block for any other Wikipedia users. It's sad to see that some editors (you, for instance) can do whatever they want with impunity. Dpotop ( talk) 16:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Above, he calls me he a wannabe, a few days ago he calls me a hypocrite. It's all standard practice for Dpotop. El_C 16:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Here's a suggestion to Dpotop. Why dosen't he make a few edits that are not related to targeting myself or reverting Eastern European articles. It'd go along way toward establishing calm on these two unrelated fronts. El_C 16:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The original question has been asked and answered. In the case of Alexia Death, the formal notice I placed on her talk page was not required as she was a listed party to the case and was informed of the decision at the time it closed. Editors who were not parties to the case should be notified about the editing restrictions before any enforcement action is taken pursuant to those remedies. Are there any points that need additional clarification? Thatcher131 16:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Nothing that doesn't involve targeting me, I'm sure. El_C 16:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Hang on a moment, I just looked at the Case again, and civility restrictions 1 Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Alexia_Death_restricted and 10 Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Sander_S.C3.A4de_restricted were never adopted, so I don't think El_C was correct in blocking them with enforcement blocks. At most he should have placed the notice of general restriction first. Surely if ArbCom wanted the parties to be blocked without further notice as you suggest Thatcher131, they would have passed those remedies. Martintg ( talk) 21:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Lack of ArbCom action does not condone bad behavior nor prevent admins from dealing with bad behavior through the normal means. Since these folks were party to this case, they were well aware of the general restrictions, so there was no need for further notification. The fact that they have been given additional notification subsequently is a courtesy intended to help them comply. - Jehochman Talk 21:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
(ec) Note JamesF's vote in opposition, "oppose in favor of the general restriction." As the general restriction applies to all parties upon notice, and the closing clerk notified both Alexia [31] and Sander [32], then the notification requirement has been met. I applied the warning template as a formality and because Sander was listed as a party in the case opening, but he clearly was considered a party when the case closed, as noted on the proposed decision page and as demonstrated by Cbrown's notification. Thatcher131 21:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
And FloNight in support of the general restriction said "I prefer this to keep newer users from gaining the upper hand by bashing our established editors over the head with our decision at the time these established users are trying to adjust their conduct to match our remedies." Didn't the thing that FloNight wanted to avoid just happen in this case, Alexia and Sander were bashed over the head without a chance to adjust by being notified first according to remedy 11? Martintg ( talk) 22:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Also, the notices you linked were provided at the conclusion of the case and only mentioned Remedies 2, 5 and 10. There was no mention of Remedy 11 in that notice. I am particularly concerned about the other Involved Parties, User:Erik Jesse, User:3 Löwi and User:Klamber, who were offline long before the case even started, never participated in the case, and continue to be offline to this day, returning some time in the future and being clobbered over the head without a chance to adjust. Martintg ( talk) 22:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The general restriction is indeed linked in that notice. Thatcher131 23:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Indeed you are correct, I mis-read the notice. However what of FloNight's concern and the issue of the three involved parties I mentioned being potentially bashed over the head without being given a chance to adjust? It's pretty tough on them, isn't it? No finding of fact against them, yet they have this threat of instant block hanging over their heads. Martintg ( talk) 23:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
As I read Flo's comment to mean that she does not want new unnamed editors to have the upper hand on older editors named in specific remedies, hence the general remedy. (Although you are welcome to ask her specifically.) Regarding inactive editors, I can only say that I would hope that they read their talk pages (and indeed, they have an obligation to follow up on an Arbitration case naming them that was pending when they last edited), but even so I personally would issue another warning before issuing blocks. And in any case, the initial blocks are meant to be brief, and only escalate on repeated violations. If you wish to specifically exempt these editors you will need Arbcom to vote a motion modifying the decision. Thatcher131 00:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC) reply
I'm sure you would personally issue them with a warning, but other admins may not. As for your stated obligation that they should follow up any ArbCom case pending since their last edit, the fact is they have been off line long long before this case was ever requested, let alone pending. I have no idea why they were even listed as involved parties, apart from their ethnictiy. It would be bit of a nasty surprise if they ever return to find this notice on their talk page related to a case that they never participated in let alone a finding of fact made against them. And yet they have been singled out for no other reason that they happen to live in Estonia and subjected to harser regime than you or me, we get a second chance because we get a notice only after the first infraction, and they get none. Don't you find this disquieting?
So I ask ArbCom to amend the case such that their names are struck from the list of involved parties and thus the notices removed from their talk pages. In fact a motion to this effect Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Workshop#Motion_to_strike_3_L.C3.B6wi_and_Klamber_from_the_list_of_parties was made during the case and seconded by the clerk User:Cbrown1023 at the time, but may have been overlooked in the general noise of the Workshop page. Martintg ( talk) 00:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC) reply


Requested motions to /Digwuren

I request that the Committee consider the following motions. It is not clear where request for motions in a prior cases ought be placed, so could the clerks move this to the right spot if this is not it. Thanks. Martintg ( talk) 18:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Clerk note: I have moved these requests to the "requests for clarifications" section as probably the best place for them. I agree with Marting that it is not clear from the instructions where a request for relief from a prior decision should be posted. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC) reply

The Committee will be discussing these motions soon-ish. They have move toward the top of our To-do-list. FloNight ( talk) 22:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Suspension of bans for both User:Digwuren and User:Petri Krohn

It is now obvious, after an initial bit of confusion and subsequent clarification, that the remedy 11 Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction will be most effective in combating incivility, which was the core issue of this case. No one was calling for year long bans for either party in the original case, in fact most involved and uninvolved were explicitly against any ban, as Alex Bakharev succinctly argued here and seconded by many others including Geogre and Biophys in Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Remedies_are_too_harsh. Note too that Digwuren did make a reflective and conciliatory statement aplogising to those he had wronged and forgiving those who had wronged him Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Statement_by_Digwuren. Compare this to the recently banned Anonimu, where there was a clear concensus for a ban and he was defiant and un-remorseful to the end.

While a year is a long time, and shortening it may be useful, I'd like to see those users expressing remorse, telling us what they have learned and promising not to continue behavior that led to their ban before any shortening or suspension of a ban is considered.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC) reply

I see no point in banning these editors, especially Petri, who unlike Digwuren, even sincerely apologized long before the case and was still punished for his actions taken prior to the apology, unlike Digwuren who continued to create "occupation" badwagons, revert war and bait contributors even while his arbitration was ongoing. Still, as far as Digwuren is concerned, I neither proposed nor supported a year-long ban. I have a very thick skin towards incivility and this aspect of his conduct did not bother me much. But if he is unblocked, he must be on the short leash regarding the number of reverts and coatracking.

Overall, I think that case needs a new hearing in light of how editors see it now in the retrospect and by the hopefully wisened up ArbCom as well. Also, there were several new developments, chiefly, editors using the "editing restrictions" to blockshop and vigorously "investigate" each other. This whole matter needs a fresh look, perhaps by a renewed Arbcom after the election which is almost over.

I would object to selective reversals of the original decision. The case was handled badly in a hands-off-by-ArbCom-type way during the entire precedings. Selective return of Digwuren and doing nothing else would just make matters worse. Rehashing that decision overall may be a good thing and hearing all parties in an orderly way by the arbitrators who actually listned and engage would be a good thing though. -- Irpen 19:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC) reply

I think most of the involved parties had findings of fact regarding revert warring. The differentiating aspect for Digwuren and Petri Krohn was using Wikipedia as a battleground. Note that the root cause of this battle was the Bronze soldier controversy, which has now largely resolved itself, the threat for further battling has significantly diminished. Also given that bans are in principle intended to stop further damage to Wikipedia, rather for retribution and punishment for its own sake, and they have already served some months of this ban, I see no reason to continue this ban, particularly since there seems a concensus against a ban in the first place, the parties have shown remorse as I have linked above and the Bronze soldier issues have dissipated. I am not asking for selective reversals, just a suspension. Martintg ( talk) 20:30, 15 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Indeed, I would support suspension of the ban of Digwuren and Petri. It would make sense to match it with some sort of the revert parole and/or topic bans Alex Bakharev ( talk) 02:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC) reply
I have to re-confirm my opinion since it has been mentioned above. Yes, I support the suspension of the ban of Digwuren and Petri since they are highly productive editors. The ban could be replaced by a restriction on the number of reverts per week if necessary. Biophys ( talk) 20:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Strike User:Erik Jesse, User:3 Löwi and User:Klamber from the Involved parties list

These people were offline long before the case even started, never participated in the case, and continue to be offline to this day. No or little evidence was presented against them and no finding of fact either. In fact they had absolutely no involvement in the issues of this case and were only mentioned because they were included in an earlier checkuser case. Note however it is a finding of fact that Petri Krohn used Wikipedia as a battleground, and the checkuser case against these and other Estonian users was a part of that warfare. We don't want to perpetuate this wrong against these three editors.

Therefore I ask ArbCom to amend the case such that their names are struck from the list of involved parties and thus the notices removed from their talk pages. In fact I made a similar motion to this effect Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Workshop#Motion_to_strike_3_L.C3.B6wi_and_Klamber_from_the_list_of_parties during the case and it was seconded by the clerk Cbrown1023 at the time. I know it is a minor issue, but it is an important gesture that ArbCom ought to do to further heal the hurts and encourage them to return, particularly User:3 Löwi who has been an editor of good standing since 2005.

Expand definition of "uninvolved admin" in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction

The principle of involved admins not being permitted to issue blocks is founded on the issue of conflict of interest and that trust should be maintained in the impartiality of the blocking admin. Generally "involved" means personal involvement in the immediate issue or article. However, given that the span of this general restriction covers all of Eastern Europe, and the principle that trust should be maintained in the blocking admin's impartiality, and that political issues (the role of the Soviet Union and communism) is the basis for much of the conflict on Eastern Europe; the definition of "involved" should be expanded for this remedy to include admins with overt and obvious political view points or past significant involvment in content disputes within Eastern Europe

The recent episode concerning blocks issued by El_C illustrates this problem. An admin with a " vanity page" consisting of figures associated with communist oppression and terrorism wades into a dispute involving Eastern Europe, not only is this highly provocative, but alarm bells start ringing as to the impartiality of this admin. Note that this is same admin saw no problem with the behaviour of the recently banned Anonimu, uncivilly branding those who brought the complaint as "ethno-nationalist editors". This fact of questionable impartiality and lack of trust only served to inflame the situation resulting a commited and significant editor and wikiproject coordinator Sander Säde to leave the project.

While one must endeavour to assume good faith, never the less, there would be an issue of trust in the judgement of an admin if, to illustrate with an example, they had a vanity page consisting of images of Osama bin Ladin and Hezbollah on their user page wading in and handing out blocks in a dispute regarding Israeli related topic. Common sense dictates that controversial admins of questionable partiality should not be involved enforcing this remedy.

Good point, but it all boils down to the issue of anonymity. El C at least declares some of his POV on his user page. I, for example, declare quite a few more things. Would you prefer to trust a user who declares nothing? How can we be sure if such declarations are truthful, and not ironic or simply deceptive? Looking back at the Essjay controversy I still think all admins should be required to reveal their identity, education, and POVs... but I am well aware this will not fly. I think "uninvolved admin" should be one that is accepted by the parties; but of course that creates a possibility for the parties to evade judgment by refusing to accept any admin as uninvolved. Perhaps to avoid that but deal with the problem you outlined, we should have a procedure parties can lodge complains about admin's involvement, where this could be reviewed by other admins and if involvement is determined (something like CoI), the admin's action is reverted and warning issued? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Note that I am one of the most sought-after admins by both the Armenian and Azerbaijani factions. They never cared what is on my user page, they just care that I'm fair, and indeed I have such a record dating back years. Conversely, I've had pro-Palestinian groups or extreme-right Europeans refuse to have me as an uninvolved admin because I am fluent in Hebrew, requests which I always denied. El_C 15:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC) reply
In this particluar case, I fear the problem isn't actual conflict of interest so much as perceived lack of impartiality. While people knowing El_C may very well feel quite comfortable that he does not let his political leanings influence his judgment, the fact that they are very visible nonetheless will give the impression that he might be siding with one side of a debate, or "overcompensate" for the other. This does not mean that other editors with less visible politics would do a better job, but giving such ammo for complaints is probably a relatively bad idea. —  Coren  (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC) reply
It's important to assume good faith. You are not calling to ban people who exhibit the flag of Israel on their userpage from admin actions on Israeli-Palestinian issue, so why this? Both Azerbaijan and Armenia were former Soviet republics, why are editors there acting differently than editors here? The reason, I think, has more to do with a perceived [33] personal dispute than political (see for example the attempt by the user above to delete Bishzilla (thread)). Anyway, I would gladly delete my user page, but such ruling need to be applied consistently, anticommunism should not be getting a priority because of easy targets. El_C 20:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC) reply
I tried to specifically make the point that I didn't feel your impartiality was at issue, and I'm sorry if you understood this differently. My point is that perception is the key here and that leaving the enforcement to another admin would not be so much more trouble. And, personally, yes I would expect someone who displayed an Israeli flag on their userpage to also avoid admin action in Israeli-Palestinian issue — not because I think them unable to act fairly and impartially, but because the appearance of impropriety is a probable source of heat. —  Coren  (talk) 23:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC) reply
It's a trap, but I'll answer. Appearances do count (for example, I never edited the Communism article even once), but this is far from it. What about someone displaying the American flag in relation to articles about 911 or modern Iraq? Some would have me cease enforcing Armenia-Azerbaijan dispute which I have been doing for years, even though both factions seek this, due to abstract appearance of political correctness. It's a red herring (pun intended), anyway; Wikipedia is not a free-for-all. [34] El_C 02:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC) reply
I support the proposal by Piotrus to have a review procedure for such cases. The reviewrs have to decide if the blocking admin is indeed an impartial side. If there are any doubts about that, the block should be lifted immediately. Biophys ( talk) 20:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Appeal against notice to ban for incivility by user Mrg3105

The action was taken under the premise of:
General restriction

11) Any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below. Before the restriction shall come into effect for a particular editor, that editor shall be given an official notice of it with a link to this decision.

I would like to appeal against this action and the finding of my incivility based on the following points:

1. My incivility was never explicitly stated by the administrator who imposed it despite a request to do so. Another administrator (Thatcher) simply suggesting the need for Dispute resolution, without considering that a 'request to move' is a form of dispute resolution.

2. Under some circumstances incivility is justified such as when the Wikipedia user is found to be using methods of argument during a discussion which are easily likened to abuse of logic, lying or propaganda, all of which contradict Wikipedia NPOV policy. The ruling is therefore largely the administrator's POV who may be unaware of the behaviour of the other party.

3. In order for the 'personal attack' to be personal, a person needs to be explicitly named. Since no such person was named in the cited evidence against me, the attack could only have been directed at the line of argument offered by the opposers of the 'proposal to move', which was in part lacking in supporting evidence, and therefore deceptive. In fact the proposition that I directed a personal attack contradicts my personal values that "one talks about ideas and not people"

4. If I am accused of assumptions of bad faith, then I submit that the action of the other party was in fact the precursor of the 'request for move' as a means of remedies in equity due to my inability to assume good faith given the action of renaming the article in the first place, which, without discussion, was tantamount to negation of good faith as per Wikipedia's policy that "Bad faith editing can include deliberate disruption just to prove a point, playing games with policies, and vandalism". In this case the points being attempted to be proven are that: a) the article is focused on places in the event name and not on the historical event itself, and b) that Romanian and European Union naming policy over-rides that of WP:UE, WP:MILMOS#NAME, and WP:ROR, for which I can find no evidence in Wikipedia policy.

5. That in any case, I could not be warned under the Digwuren enforcement as an "editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe" since the article is intended to be an NPOV description of of a military operation by an armed force which at one time could be claimed to have been present in Europe, Asia, Africa, the Pacific Ocean and the Arctic. It is not a topic related to Eastern Europe despite being situated in Eastern Europe in the same way that all discussion of Architecture will inevitably include Eastern Europe. This would require similar enforcements to be enacted every time any editor chose to document operations by the Soviet Army in any of these global regions should anyone fund them controversial, or any topic that might include Eastern Europe, which is a large majority of Wikipedia content.

I look forward to my user name being cleared of these accusations.

Thank you -- mrg3105 mrg3105 00:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Ok, now what happens to the undiscussed arbitrary renaming of the historically non-extant Battle of Romania into the non- WP:UE, non- WP:MILMOS#NAME, and non- WP:ROR compliant Iaşi-Chişinău Offensive, and the subsequent denial of the RM based on arguments that did not apply to the reasons given for the RM?-- mrg3105 mrg3105 01:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: Digwuren

Statement by Moreschi

I'm requesting clarification as regards this FoF and this remedy. I've just blocked said user, RJ CG ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for edit-warring yet again. Time for the "summary bans" bit to be enforced? Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 23:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Oh, that reminds me: if an arbitrator/checkuser with knowledge of the Estonian sock stable could figure out who on earth 84.50.127.105 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), also blocked for his part in the edit-war, actually is, this might be helpful. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 23:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Statement by User:Martintg

I see that Kirill is wishing to apply additional remedies from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles. What's the scope? I don't think it is necessary in Estonia related articles, there has hardly been any activity, let alone disputes, with only User:RJ CG popping his head in briefly after a long break before being promptly blocked for two weeks for 3RR. As I said previously, Wikiproject Estonia has been chilled to the bone with most of the editors leaving the project, with no significant articles created or expanded, except for football it seems. I suppose if you are going to turn the screws even tighter, how about also adding:

  • The applicable scope: Eastern Europe broadly defined, or just Estonia related articles?
  • The definition of uninvolved admin for enforcement from that case as well Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Uninvolved_administrators
  • Lifting of the ban for Digwuren. Nobody from either side wanted year long bans. Given Digwuren only joined around April 2007, had not been previously subjected any other genuine dispute resolution attempts before being taken to ArbCom (obviously Irpen's opinions carry a lot of weight with ArbCom), this newbie certainly has been bitten hard. We need at least one person from Estonia who can speak the language and willing to contribute meaningfully to articles.

Thanks. Martintg ( talk) 06:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Statement by User:Biophys

Unlike Israeli-Palestinian conflict, "Eastern European subjects" are not clearly defined. Does this include every Russia-related topic, like Russia-China relations or Soviet intelligence operations in the United States? If we want to follow the "Israeli-Palestinian" remedy, the "conflict area" should be clearly defined, say "Russian-Polish" or "Russian-Estonian" conflicts. Anything that is not area of conflict (e.g. articles on Russian-Turkish subjects or internal Russian affairs) do not belong there. Could you please clarify which subjects are covered? Biophys ( talk) 22:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC) reply

So, I would highly appreciate any answer. ArbCom members are votiong below, but about what? Biophys ( talk)

Statement by User:Vecrumba

I would like to know better what's being defined as the scope of applicability and what, if any, specific history of warnings is being proposed as moving sanctions to the "next level." My concern is that as the scope is expanded, "uninvolved" will also extend to "uninformed"--there has to be substantial awareness of editors' past histories in order to draw an objective judgement. If you just go by who accuses whom in the latest trail, it's quite possible that all that happens is a blanket conviction of the guilty and the innocent--if you come in on a fight, how do you know who started it? The notion that someone who is attacked is just going to sit and smile and assume good faith is only good for one round of edits; if an editor persists in behavior that is taken as an attack, the attacked editor(s) will respond and should not be held equally to blame for any escalation. — PētersV ( talk) 00:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

I would suggest a code of etiquette. I have debated (civilly) paid propaganda pushers by sticking to sources, so I know it is possible not to escalate into conflict. What has worked is...
  • Always stick to what a source says. This is not as simple as it sounds, I've had to buy $150 sources (not even available at the library) just to prove they were being quoted correctly, literally, but being grossly misrepresented to push a patently false POV.
  • Corollary: Article content should be based on what sources say, not on what editors interpret sources to say. Editors have summarized content coming to different conclusions regarding content in characterizing reputable sources which differ from the authors' own summaries appearing within those self-same materials.
  • Corollary: Use the same terminology in the article as in reputable sources. For example, neither embellish nor dilute words such as "occupied." That "occupy" can be taken to be "accusatory" is irrelevant, if it is what the reputable source uses, that is what the Wikipedia article uses.
  • Discuss any major changes prior to making them, whether additions, modifications, or deletions. If consensus is not reached, the change is not made. If consensus is reached, then changes are implemented. Delete first, discuss later (in the area of articles where there is significant polarization of position or initial "disapprovals" are lodged by historically known antagonists) is looked upon as an act of bad faith, that is, preemptive removal of content without discussion or consensus is viewed as edit warring. — PētersV ( talk) 22:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Statement by User:Relata refero

I have recently stumbled across Denial of the Holodomor, which I discovered while cleaning up Historical revisionism, and am startled by the level of hostility and accusations of bad faith that seem to be acceptable in this area, even towards those manifestly uninvolved. I would like some firm statements adjuring editors to read and follow WP:OR and WP:AGF, as well as some sense that adminstrators will be able to evaluate those who are 'involved' accurately, and that there will be some appealing of that judgment. Relata refero ( talk) 18:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

I'd like to add that I assume that the area of "conflict" is all those articles that have as their subjects the history and current status of the relations between Russia and the former states of the USSR/Warsaw Pact. Relata refero ( talk) 18:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply
I'd mention regarding Denial of the Holodomor that several editors including myself were reprimanded when Gatoclass made some assertions which led to a degenerating spiral we could not escape from. All participants were "put on the list" by Thatcher. I disagreed with Thatcher's conclusion regarding my personal editorial conduct, however, I still prefer that to the alternative.
  You're only coming to the discussion there on what I think is its third round. I completely agree that the general "divide" is along versions of history which echo Sovietism and versions by the countries formerly subjugated under Sovietism. I say "versions" because basic facts are often in dispute, they are not "views" or "POVs" regarding a common set of facts or circumstances. — PētersV ( talk) 19:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

It must be said that "stumbled across Denial of the Holodomor" consisted of Relata refero initially deleting huge sections of referenced content on February 12th from that article without first discussing the issues or obtaining consensus on the talk page. Not the best way to introduce one self to the other editors of any article, however Relata refero's edit history only goes back to October 11, 2007, so perhaps it was inexperience. Despite this, the other editors have been exceedingly patient and civil with him/her. Martintg ( talk) 20:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

See what I mean?
Yes, the article's one of the worst imaginable, and I acted on WP:BRD. About "exceedingly patient and civil"... wow. What a mess EE articles must be if someone thinks that was "exceedingly patient and civil". Strengthens the case for stringent restrictions, I'd say? Relata refero ( talk) 20:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply
Perhaps we can continue on the article page. It's only the "worst imaginable" partly because (I believe) you believe it is something in scope which it is not, so perhaps we can keep disparaging Q.E.D. remarks to article talk where editors would expect to find them to comment on them. :-) Was there bolding I missed? PētersV ( talk) 22:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply
(cross posted with additions) Mass deletion of EE content is most typically (historically) associated with "I don't like it" edit wars, so I would ask editors to be sensitive to that and discuss prior to deletion, not delete as an act of improvement and then (appear to deign to) discuss. Because of past experiences, that sort of editorial conduct is looked upon as not acting in good faith. Generally speaking, EE article etiquette is to discuss major changes, additions, and deletions prior; to never impose what is written elsewhere in Wikipedia as a "model" or "standard" but to stick to sources, etc. — PētersV ( talk) 22:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply
Even unreliable ones...
We shouldn't make excuses for departures from core Wikipedia policies, but look for ways to enforce them. Relata refero ( talk) 23:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

  • Closed and archived 14:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC), with no new votes or discussion in 20 days. 14:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

I have read this but am recusing from commenting due to my involvement in that case. I will ask the others to look over this. -- Deskana (talk) 10:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC) reply

In this case, comment is probably best given in the first instance by arbitrators who were active when that case was being heard. Deferring to othes to clarify the above. FT2 ( Talk |  email) 23:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC) reply

The "summary bans" bit predates some of the more useful methods we've developed since then; I'd prefer not to funnel everything through a bottleneck by having the Committee do everything itself, but rather to take the standard approach we've used for other conflict areas recently. See my motion below. Kirill 13:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC) reply

I am recusing myself due to my prior involvement as an administrator. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 04:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Proposed motions and voting

For this motion, there are 14 active Arbitrators, so 8 votes are a majority.

Clerk note Having been left open for voting for 30 days and not being approved by a majority of Arbitrators, the motion is rejected. Thatcher 02:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply

Motion:

The general restriction in the Digwuren case is replaced with the following:
1) Discretionary sanctions
Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.
In determining whether to impose sanctions on a given user and which sanctions to impose, administrators should use their judgment and balance the need to assume good faith and avoid biting genuinely inexperienced editors, and the desire to allow responsible contributors maximum freedom to edit, with the need to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Wikipedia as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles. Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing, and to amend behaviors that are deemed to be of concern by administrators. An editor unable or unwilling to do so may wish to restrict their editing to other topics, in order to avoid sanctions.
2) Appeal of discretionary sanctions
Discretionary sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently WP:AE), or the Committee. Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators' noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.
3) Other provisions
This shall not affect any sanctions already imposed under the old remedies. All sanctions imposed under these provisions are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Log of blocks and bans.

Support:

  1. I remain convinced that this is the best solution, at least until the working group develops something more useful. Kirill 13:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC) reply
  2. Support. This is more helpful to those who find themselves involved in editing disputes over Eastern Europe, whether as participant or administrator. Sam Blacketer ( talk) 21:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC) reply
    Support so as to conform the rules for discretionary sanctions in this area to the ones we have developed in more recent cases, and without prejudice to any steps we might take later based on recommendations of the working group. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 17:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC) Marting reminds me on my talk that some of his points from above have not been addressed. Would urge that the motion be clarified to address them. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 20:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC) reply
  3. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC) reply

Oppose:

Abstain:

Querry on the use of Digwuren in editor conflicts

Please check the discussion here User_talk:Nick_Dowling#Hi. I would like to see a restriction on the use of the notification as a sledgehammer in editor conflicts. Also, I would like to know if I have overstepped the line in that discussion, and where exactly the line is. Regards-- Stor stark7 Speak 23:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC) reply

Request for recusal in Request_to_amend_prior_case:Digwuren

Concerning Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_to_amend_prior_case:_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FDigwuren

Statement by Martintg

FayssalF was an involved party in this case, making unproven allegations of online intrusion by Digwuren. Whether or not these allegations were prompted by his earlier heated conflict with some editors over claims of admin abuse is not clear, however there is a clear conflict of interest in FayssalF's participation, which he acknowledges here and here. Nevertheless, it appears that FayssalF has voted anyway. Martintg ( talk) 11:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC) reply

  • This is not some minor tweak or "just updating the wording" as claimed by Sam Blacketer, (who also voted in favour claiming " it would give more clarity to all concerned" which contradicts the proponent's statement " a better definition of the area of conflict needed, I'm afraid. Just "Eastern Europe" is too vague"), This is a major escalation from a civility remedy with blocks no longer than a month, to discretionary sanctions allowing blocks of up to one year for any reason with a very narrow definition of involved admin. This proposal was brought on the back of a single Polish/German topic dispute (which is not even within the scope of the original locus of dispute), so why should it be applicable to the Baltic States or Russia, but not Ireland? Where is the reward for those areas that have improved since 2007, if anything we should be seeing a narrowing of the scope of the current remedy to reflect these improvements, not introducing heavier sanctions. There is also an additional concern expressed by some quarters that certain admins may abuse this provision to settle some old scores, which in my view is valid given the bad blood generated in past conflicts in EE. Martintg ( talk) 19:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • In reply to FayssalF, Petri Krohn is actually Finnish, not Russian. The Digwuren conflict at its core was primarily between an Estonian and a Finn, were the Finn recruited some Russian editors to his cause. (Krohn is even now continuing his battle off-wiki in the Estonian press with his opinion piece " Estonia is a fascist apartheid state"). It is unfortunate that the remedies in the Digwuren case were extended to broadly cover Eastern Europe, and is now being exploited by Moreschi to further his agenda as expressed in his essay " The Plague". And it is a pity that some ArbCom members have apparently bought into it rather than look at the facts on the ground. I think Sarah777's rebuttal of Morsechi's thesis in her lampooning essay " The Real Plague" raises some real problems with Moreschi's misanthropic views on ethnic diversity of viewpoints in Wikipedia. Martintg ( talk) 21:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Given the nature of the change being made in the case (ie just updating the wording of the general article sanctions), I can't really see that there is a problem here. The remedy has already been adopted and all that is happening now is a tweak to the way it works. Even if there was a clear conflict of interest (which I doubt) it would not matter very much. Sam Blacketer ( talk) 14:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with Sam. There isn't a sufficient reason for us to ask FayssalF to change his mind on matter of recusal. James F. (talk) 16:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • If the case was limited to Digwuren I'd have had recused myself of course. The scale of this case goes far beyond that and involve a dozen of editors and many (hundreds?) of articles. Please bear in mind that I am neither a Russian, Estonian or a Polish editor. Also note that I had blocked both warring parties before; Digwuren (Estonian) and Petri Krohn (Russian) who were both banned for one year afterwards as a result of an ArbCom case. However, I am ready to recuse myself but would that change the outcome? If yes, then I'd gladly do it. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 17:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • I don't see any good reason to go down the road of "jury selection", or allowing arguments to be brought on the recusal of Arbitrators. There is no particular problem with the current system of recusals. Charles Matthews ( talk) 06:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with above arb's opinions. FloNight ♥♥♥ 00:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification

The restriction currently says

12) Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted)

  • Exactly how broadly is this interpretation applied? Does it extend to the Pacific Ocean?
  • I was blocked for strenuously opposing use of original research, and do not believe I was uncivil (was denied opportunity to participate in the review), and yet was blocked again (as was the case in the first two blocks). Is the Digwuren restriction intended to be used to force original research into articles that are not watched by significant number of editors to prevent "consensus" decision from adopting original research based on polls?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC) reply
    Informal request recieved, mrg3105. Could you please provide us with some links here (also via e-mail to the ArbCom mailing list or me directly)? Thanks in advance. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 23:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Sorry, but links to what? Is my block history required? It is on the other Requests for arbitration/Digwuren page-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply
All 3 blocks (executed by three different admininstrators) appearing on your block log refer to one unique reason (both the original case and its subsequent motion). There are no other links. Are there any more relevant links which can be helpful for our clarification? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 01:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Block1: Blocked by User:Thatcher with this note regarding this edit and this edit
Block2: User:Woody posts this to WP:AE, with regards to this edit to Soviet partisans in Poland. Blocked by User:Moreschi.
Block3: Blocked by User:Roger Davies, posts request for review at ANI, see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive451#Block review invited: mrg3105.
All these added by Woody ( talk) 09:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Block 3 was for incivility and personal attacks - for instance, describing Buckshot06 as "the epitome of a yes man" and accusing Biruitorul of an "extreme bias for anything Soviet" on the talk page of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. -- ROGER DAVIES  talk 11:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Which is which Roger?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply

Request to amend prior case: Digwuren

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

  • I don't think that this relatively small change would affect any editors (yet)

Statement by Piotrus

There is a curious and I think unhelpful difference between the Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#General_restriction and the Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions which have replaced it. The sanction allow imposing sanctions on editors who "repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". The general restriction used to impose sanction for "make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith." The difference is important, as the new discretionary sanctions don't even mention personal attacks attacks and uncivility, and mention good faith in an unclear fashion later. While I think many would argue that this is covered by "expected standards of behavior", I'd nonetheless ask for a small clarification, i.e. amending the discretionary sanctions to clearly state that editors can be sanctions for (gross, repeated, etc.) violations of CIV, NPA and AGF (alternativily, we could clarify that CIV, NPA and AGF are not "expected standards of behavior" - athough I certainly hope this will not be the case). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by other username

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I'm not really sure where the confusion is coming in. Is there really a dispute over whether conduct policies constitute expected behavior? -- Vassyana ( talk) 11:49, 10 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Civility is part of behavior. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with Vassyana and Rlevse. Having said that, I wouldn't mind adding a few words to the remedy currently in effect if anyone anticipates any genuine dispute if and when the sanctions have to be invoked. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:30, 15 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • I would have thought it fairly clear that those were what "expected behavior" meant, but if you wish to suggest a wording that removes doubt I'd be receptive to the tweak. —  Coren  (talk) 09:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Concur with above, if a tweak is needed to make it clearer that can be done though. Wizardman 01:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • In my opinion making the wording too detailed gives more reason for people to argue not less, so I think the more general wording used now is better. The administrators should be enforcing sanctions against users that breaks any policy and causes the article to be an hostile editting environment. FloNight ♥♥♥ 20:06, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Sandstein

This request arises from Radeksz's currently unresolved appeal, at WP:AE#Appeal against discretionary sanctions by Radeksz, against discretionary sanctions imposed against him by Thatcher. Inter alia, Radeksz argues that the sanctions are inadmissible because he did not receive a prior warning about possible sanctions. The reviewing administrators (including arbitrator Kirill) disagree about the application of the pertinent clause of the relevant remedy:

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

—  Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions

I ask the Committee to clarify the following:

  1. Must this warning be given by an uninvolved editor or administrator? (This issue came up recently in another AE case.) (Question struck, sorry, the remedy says clearly that it must be an uninvolved administrator.  Sandstein  15:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)) reply
  2. Must this warning be given anew tailored specifically to every incident of disruption for which sanctions are considered, or is one generic warning (to make the editor aware of the decision) sufficient in cases where the counseling provided for by the remedy is not deemed to be necessary?
  3. If generic warnings are sufficient, is a generic warning still necessary if the editor at issue is already known to be aware of the decision for other reasons, e.g. through participation in an arbitration enforcement request discussion concerning the same case?
  4. If generic warnings are sufficient, is a generic warning posted at the top of a discussion page (such as an article talk page) or in the course of a discussion sufficient, or must the warning be provided individually on user talk pages?

Thanks,  Sandstein  13:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Note to Piotrus: This request is not intended to address the merits of Radeksz's conduct or sanctions. I am only requesting the clarification of the issues raised above, which are relevant beyond the specific case. That specific case is currently still pending at AE and will be decided there, unless the Committee decides to hear the appeal itself.  Sandstein  16:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply
Additional comment: Although Thatcher has – in unfortunately understandable frustration – now lifted the sanctions that caused the discussion that led to this request, I believe that a clarification of the points listed above remains desirable for future cases.  Sandstein  11:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply
Reply to GRBerry: Thanks, that's pretty much what I would have thought, too. Sorry, only upon reading your answer did I notice that the remedy is actually pretty clear about who has to issue the warning.  Sandstein  15:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Thatcher

For my views on Radek, see my comments at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Appeal_against_discretionary_sanctions_by_Radeksz. Thatcher 14:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

  • You know, if you really want to micro-manage this thing, then all the warnings logged between July 28, 2008 and June 23, 2009 are invalid. The original case remedy #11 General restriction only dealt with "edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith", and the warning template (which I wrote) quoted the decision. On July 28 2008 the General Restriction was replaced with Remedy #12, Discretionary sanctions which are quite broad, and yet no one updated the warning template. So for the past year, editors have been warned about incivility when they were in fact subject to sanction for a much broader range of problems. Thatcher 14:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

I strongly object to Kirill's characterization of my imposition of the 1RR restriction as expedient, and his characterization of the notification requirement as doing the paperwork seriously deprecates the Committee's finding of persistent and long term misconduct in this topic area. There is clear and convincing evidence that these editors have been engaged in edit warring for a long time. Did Kirill review User:Shell Kinney/EEreportsreview before he decided that I was being "expedient"? I thoroughly checked the editors for prior involvement in complaints or Enforcement requests that would demonstrate prior knowledge of the case and its remedies. Or, as an experiment, type the name of any editor I sanctioned in the Admin noticeboard search box. Here, I'll make it easy for you.





The idea that these editors were not aware that this was a disputed topic under prior Arbcom sanction is ludicrous, and the idea that each editor needs to be personally warned that his own conduct is of concern plays directly to the argument of (nearly) every editor involved that all the editing problems are someone else's fault. I hope I may be forgiven for saying that these editors are some of the biggest crybabies I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. You'd think I was holding their sainted grandmothers hostage in my basement, rather than impose a simple requirement that they not revert each other, and discuss their reverts. I have seen very little acknowledgment of personal responsibility for any part of this dispute, it's all someone else's fault, and now I see Biophys arguing against the very concept of a 1RR restriction (good luck with that).

No one has yet explained how Wikipedia will be a better encyclopedia with the restrictions lifted. However, 13,000 words spent in arguing against an editing restriction imposed as a result of a revert war over the addition of a 2-word category is clearly detrimental. In the interests of paperwork and eschewing expediency, I have vacated my prior findings. Be well, do good works, and keep in touch. Thatcher 11:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Reply to Skapperod

According to the Strict construction of Remedy 12 it requires "a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator", but it does not require a specific wording and does not specify the place the warning must occur. Therefore, a warning given on an article talk page or one of the admins' noticeboards would be, according to the paperwork, just as good. I wrote the template {{ Digwuren enforcement}} to make it easier to give warnings, but other forms of warnings would be acceptable. There is no formal requirement to log the warning in remedy 12, but it is the only practical way to handle enforcement. Without an easy-to-search list, admins will find it practically impossible to know whether an editor has been previously warned by some other admin. In future Enforcement requests, if you know that an editor has been warned but that warning is not logged, you can provide a diff to the warning in your complaint. Thatcher 12:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Skap, the bottom line is that there was no record of any warning, formal or informal, user talk or noticeboard, and no links to warnings by uninvolved admins were provided in the complaint. Therefore, the paperwork was not completed properly. Now it is. Thatcher 14:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply
Reply to Igny

Igny's assumptions about me are amusing. In point of fact, I vacated the 1RR restriction because first Kirill, and now Stephen Bain, have taken the view that a formal notification on the user's talk page is required, even if the user is demonstrably aware of the Arbitration case and the remedies involved. From looking at User:Shell Kinney/EEreportsreview and the noticeboard and Enforcement archives, it is clear that this "mob" as you say, has been active for a long time, and it is puzzle that no prior admin ever put them on formal notice. But there it is. Thatcher 19:10, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Followup to Carcharoth

Although I feel we have reached the point of diminishing returns, I think I should point out that GRBerry and Bainer, whom who both agree with, have diametrically opposed views on Sandstein's question #3. Thatcher 00:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Offliner

Please also clarify the following:

  1. What exactly is the purpose of such a warning?
  2. What exactly should the form of such a warning be? Please be very clear about which form is sufficient and which is not.
  3. If sanctions have been placed without such a proper warning, should the sanctions be lifted?

Please make this as clear as possible. For example, prior to his sanctions, Radeksz was clearly aware of the Digwuren case as demonstrated by Thatcher. He was also warned for other things, such as edit warring. Does this constitute such a proper warning or not? Offliner ( talk) 09:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Loosmark

IMO the remedy is crystal clear and so is what Kirill wrote. Radeksz was clearly never given a warning on his talk page at any point as the remedy requares therefore i don't understand why is Sandstein trying to create confusion. If we accept this bizzare logic that some editor "might have been aware of the warning" then we will end up arguing each and every time whether this was really so. I believe the ArbCom formulated the remedy that way exactly to prevent any ambiguities. Loosmark ( talk) 14:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Biophys

There are several general questions that should be clarified by Arbcom to help administrators at AE:

  1. Can the sanctions be issued without the warning or without giving a possibility to improve?. According to Digwuren case, "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict ... if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia...". That means a warning logged in the case, exactly as Thatcher said [36]. That is why Thatcher rushed to issue such warnings to everyone (but forget Radek), and then immediately issued editing restrictions. The warning is not a "formality" because a user may be unaware that his specific actions (such as rare reverts in Nashi) are subject to the sanctions. After looking at the text of Arbcom decision, I honestly believed that I am only a subject to an official EE warning (but not to immediate sanctions) if my behavior was problematic, and everyone probably thought the same. Once receiving the proper warning, one could stop editing in this area or change his editing habits. However, the sanctions and the official warnings were issued at the same time, without giving users a possibility to improve, which goes against the letter and the spirit of discretionary sanctions. This matter was first brought to AE by Brandmaster: [37].
  2. Russia does not belong to Eastern Europe; this is mostly Asia. Would any purely Russian/Soviet subjects (like article Nashi) fall under these sanctions? For example, List_of_Soviet_agents_in_the_United_States? Biophys ( talk) 12:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC) reply
  3. Can sanctions for edit warring be issued to users who follow 1RR rule?. We need some safeguards here. The 1RR restriction was issued for article "Nashi", although some of the editors (including me and Radek) actually followed 1RR restriction while editing this article. Seriously, I am now afraid to make any edits, because any serious correction can be viewed as a revert. I am also afraid to make any two non-sequential corrections in the same article during a week, because this can be viewed as a 1RR violation.
  4. Can an argument about "tag-teams" be ever used to issue the sanctions? Thatcher used an argument about the "tag-teaming". But this is a controversial concept, and it has been de facto rejected by ArbCom during last EE case, although many users tried to bring it there. Indeed, it is very common that several users revert someone else who fight against consensus. Does it mean tag-teaming?

No one suggests to reconsider all AE cases. However, some clarity maybe helpful for the future. Biophys ( talk) 15:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Piotrus

IMHO the crucial issue here is that Radek was restricted for doing 3 reverts (with edits summaries) in two weeks - in other words for being guilty of respecting all of our policies!

Not warning him first is just adding insult to the injury here... but it is an important issue as well. It is my understanding that warnings serve the preventative function, aiming at reforming a user; restrictions are punitive, aiming at stopping disruptive users who have not heeded warnings. Any user who is not clearly a vandal, per AGF, should be given a warning first, and only if he refuses to change, should than be restricted. Such a warning should also be given on his/her talkpage, since we cannot assume that editors will read the entire talk pages (or even AE or such threads) for all tiny warnings/exceptions/caveats/etc.

Radek, an experienced and constructive user, has followed all of our policies. Advice to use talk pages more often would be enough, particularly as he has shown much willingness to improve his (already within our standards) editing behavior. Yet he was suddenly and without a warning slapped down with 1RR restriction (which he followed on the article in question anyway...), for having the misfortune of editing an article outside his usual interests. This sends a really unhelpful message to all other neutral editors who could help improve the EE articles... "Come, edit those articles and get restricted without a warning for following normal policies anyway" :(

Bottom line is, if the ArbCom endorses sanction on Radek, it will mean that from now on anybody who does (or has ever done) more than one revert on any article in EE subjects, at any time, can be subject to a major 1RR editing restriction (if we restrict a user for 3 reverts in 2 weeks, why not 2 reverts in 3 weeks - or 5 weeks - and so goes the slippery slope...).

(PS. I do support all other recent restrictions by Thatcher, this one seems an unfortunate collateral damage casualty - so I'd strongly oppose initiating any kind of wider review which could undue most of the recent 1RR restrictions, which did indeed bring peace to affected articles - most of whom Radek never even edited...). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Radeksz

While I understand that in filing this request for clarification Sandstein's purpose is to clarify a particular aspect of policy and procedure, I do want it noted, per Piotrus, that the fact that proper procedure was not followed is only one of my arguments. There are also others.

However, sticking to the narrow purpose of this request I think it's pretty clear from the text and the past interpretation of the case that the purpose of the warning is not to make an editor aware of the existence of the Digwuren case, but rather, in the language of the case so that the editor has a chance to take "specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines" - in other words to make the editor aware that their editing behavior may be problematic. I think this is precisely in there for border line case such as mine - where, since I was following 1RR/Week I really had no idea that I was breaking any kind of rules (as I've said before, this is the first time I've seen anyone get slapped with an accusation of "edit warring" and sanctions in the case of 1 revert per week). I'm also not arguing that a formal warning must be made in each instance - just that there needs to be AT LEAST ONE formal warning.

In light of the above I would also like a clarification on how exactly is the 1RR/Week restriction to be properly interpreted. If following 1RR/Week can get you restricted for edit warring, can reverting vandalisms get counted as a revert and lead to a ban? Of course I know there are clear cut cases, but what about something like this: [38]. I saw it yesterday, thought about reverting it since it looks like vandalism to me ... then thought better of it "just in case". There was no curse words in there, it was sort of on topic, no usual flags of typical vandalism - what if I reverted it and then some administrator decided that that was a violation of a 1RR restriction? And that's part of the trouble here - these kinds of harsh punishments for minor infractions, filed without proper procedures (even IF these procedures require some time to follow) create an atmosphere of paranoia (not to mention disillusionment and frustration) and hurt the regular work that editors do on these pages. radek ( talk) 17:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Question for GRBerry

an involved editor on the other side of a dispute - can you clarify what you mean by "other side of dispute"? Does this mean a dispute on a particular article? Does it mean a current dispute or one in recent past? How narrowly is this defined? The wording in the case leaves this open to interpretation and there's been some controversy stemming from that ambiguity as a result. radek ( talk) 15:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Skäpperöd

Formal notice and Digwuren list

The remedy does not require an administrator to place a formal notice on the editor's talk page, as was the case with superceded remedy 11. It only reads "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator" Yet, the formal notice reads that it is not effective unless logged at the Digwuren list. The list is titled: "List of editors placed under editing restriction", and the instruction for administrators below the title reads: "List here editors who have been placed on editing restriction by notice on their talk page, per remedy 11..."

It is not the active remedy (12) which requires a logged formal notice at the editors talk page, but remedy 11 which is superceded. Remedy 12 requires a warning that is only specified as linking the remedy by an uninvolved administrator, and optional counseling.

  • Why does the Digwuren list read "per remedy 11" and is still maintained?
  • Why does it list people not subject to an editing restriction, but who only received an adapted formal notice stemming from superceded remedy 11? I have no problem with being formally notified and listed somewhere as such, but I do have a problem with being listed as an editor under editing restrictions when in fact I am not subject to any.
  • Why does the formal notice template generate a header "Notice of editing restrictions" if no editing restrictions are issued, and requires logging at the Digwuren list to be effective?

Skäpperöd ( talk) 11:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Reply to Thatcher's reply to Skäpperöd

Exactly. I am not arguing against the formal notice itself and against a logging, how else would admins be able to keep up with who they warned, just that notice and list are maintained under the label "editing restrictions". I fully share your interpretation that a formal warning is not needed, and that there is no need for any additional warning if awareness of the remedy is evident. I had made that clear on your talk already, and my argumentation above was rather to point out that the whole "formal notice" concept in its current form is a remnant of a meanwhile non-existing remedy and must not be mistaken as a formal requirement. Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Comment by GRBerry

Sandstein posed four questions (in italics here), here is my understanding of the proper answers to them from the period when I was active at Arbitration Enforcement. These answers apply to all cases where discretionary sanctions are in force, not merely to this specific case.

1. Must this warning be given by an uninvolved editor or administrator? (This issue came up recently in another AE case.)
It is best if it is given by an uninvolved administrator. Administrators who are working enforcement for the case are uninvolved. It is worst if it is given by an involved editor on the other side of a dispute. However, the fundamental purpose of the warning is met no matter who gives it.
2. Must this warning be given anew tailored specifically to every incident of disruption for which sanctions are considered, or is one generic warning (to make the editor aware of the decision) sufficient in cases where the counseling provided for by the remedy is not deemed to be necessary?
Absolutely not. The discretionary sanctions exist because editors in the topic area have such a problematic history that they are skating on thin ice. They don't get guaranteed Nth chances, the first warning tells them that they cannot expect as much leniency as they would get elsewhere. If an admin working enforcement believes that counsel will work better than a sanction, the admin will use counsel.
It has also long been understood that anyone that was a party to the case is already warned by the case closing message simply from having been a party and no further warnings are required for case parties. This precedent establishes that individual incident warnings are not required.
3. If generic warnings are sufficient, is a generic warning still necessary if the editor at issue is already known to be aware of the decision for other reasons, e.g. through participation in an arbitration enforcement request discussion concerning the same case?
No. (Especially not for someone saying that another editor should be sanctioned under the case.) Such an editor has demonstrated awareness of the special rules and need to demonstrate the best possible behavior, a formal warning would not be of benefit to them. A logged warning may be of benefit at a later date so that it is obvious that they are aware, but that benefit comes from the logging and accrues to an admin enforcing the case, not to the editor warned because they gained no new knowledge from the warning.
4. If generic warnings are sufficient, is a generic warning posted at the top of a discussion page (such as an article talk page) or in the course of a discussion sufficient, or must the warning be provided individually on user talk pages?
I don't like the idea of a notice at the top of a talk page; the one situation I was involved in where that was tried didn't work very well, but that was also trying a non-standard approach in an extreme battleground area, and I'm not certain which, if any, non-standard feature caused it to work poorly - it might have been the particular editors instead, as I know it the approach and talk page message worked fine in a different topic area.
In general the question is whether an editor is aware of the special conditions and need to be on the best possible behavior. This can be presumed to be the case if the warning was posted to their talk page. This really can't be presumed for a warning on a talk page or in the midst of a discussion; we all engage in tl;dr at times. Talk pages, especially on disputed topics, can have screens of templates at the top that we just scroll by without reading. And a comment in the middle of a discussion may not be noticed, especially if the discussion is fast moving, as is common for disputed topics. So user talk page warnings are far more likely to be seen by the editor and thus generate the required notice - but this remains irrelevant for an editor that is demonstrably aware of the data that a warning would provide. GRBerry 14:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Igny

Despite the fact that I was affected by this restriction, I am actually saddened that Thatcher gave in to the pressure and vacated the restrictions from this particular bunch of editors (yes, including radek and even me). With all due respect to Thatcher, I think he lacks teaching experience to deal with a bunch of editors upset by the punishment. From my teaching experience, I always expect students who are upset by the grades they receive and who claim unfair punishment and who demand, often without a compelling reason, a better grade or something. In fact, if I teach a big course, I expect to be flooded by those demands.

It is an absolute rule for a teacher not to give in to such demands (unless there are really really really exceptional circumstances), any exception from such a rule may have severe consequences and undermine the authority of the teacher. Next time, expect even bigger outcries from the punished editors who will cite plenty of different reasons and precedents, including the precedent of this case.

Thatcher mentioned the tens of thousands of words spent on this simple case, but that was to be expected when you deal with what essentially is a mob. Despite what individual editors may claim or feel, the tag teaming does indeed take place in Wikipedia on many controversial topics. It is hard to judge individual contribution to the tag teaming, or determine guilt of any particular participant without doubt. That is why I was actually glad with Thatcher's decision to punish all the involved editors and thought that finally someone decided to do something about the problem. That is extremely unfortunate that under the pressure of the mob the decision was overturned. ( Igny ( talk) 18:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)) reply

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Like the purpose of warnings under general policy, the purpose of warnings here, in relation to the discretionary sanctions, is twofold. Obviously the primary purpose is to ensure that editors are aware of the existence of the discretionary sanctions before they can be made subject to them. This is particularly important in this case because the discretionary sanctions were not part of the original decision. The secondary purpose is so that editors know that their behaviour is being scrutinised and that they personally may be subject to sanctions, to allow them an opportunity to modify their behaviour. That the remedy comprehends this purpose too is apparent from the mention of counselling editors in addition to warning them, and from the list of factors in the third paragraph.
To answer Sandstein's three remaining questions:
  1. The minimum that is required is that the editor is provided with a link to the discretionary sanctions section within the final decision, as the remedy states. Once an editor has been warned of the existence of the discretionary sanctions, they do not need to be warned again (though editors who were only ever warned of the existence of the original general restriction would have to be warned of the discretionary sanctions).
  2. The terms of the remedy say fairly plainly that a warning is required. I would agree that if someone has been commenting in arbitration enforcement threads concerning the discretionary sanctions they can be taken to be aware of them, but the second purpose remains.
  3. A talk page banner is not sufficient, no. A message on the user's talk page is the best method.
-- bainer ( talk) 16:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - agree with GRBerry and bainer here. Having said that, I do have a great deal of sympathy for admins who work in the area of arbitration enforcement. There were movements afoot to reform this area, including a request for comments held earlier this year ( WP:AERFC). If proposals made there would improve things, no-one should be shy of attempting to implement any needed reform, and asking for guidance if needed. Carcharoth ( talk) 23:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply
    • Thank-you , Thatcher, for pointing out that point about Sandstein's question 3. My view is that it depends on the case and editor in question, but user talk page messages are nearly always best to avoid any potential confusion or defence. It might seem like paperwork, but leaving a user talk page message ultimately reduces paperwork (and discussions like these) later. Carcharoth ( talk) 07:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: DIGWUREN

Initiated by Petri Krohn ( talk) at 21:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC) reply

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Petri Krohn

I am seeking clarification on whether this edit I made yesterday to Mass killings under Communist regimes a) constitutes edit warring, b) is a part of a BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, or c) is unrelated to any ongoing edit war in the article.

The article is under discretionary sanctions authorized in the Digwuren case limiting editors to 1RR per day.

I try to maintain a 0 RR policy on disputed topics – never doing blind reverts and instead finding new formulations to address the different objections. The edit war on the Mass killings under Communist regimes started October 13 and resulted in nine blind reverts by a total of six different editors. A complete list of the edits is available in in my comment on the related arbitration enforcement thread. My edits to the article were intended to stop the ongoing edit war by finding and proposing a suitable compromise wording. In the half an hour it took for me to check that my first edit was supported by facts the article went through two more rounds of edit warring.

I believe both my edits were allowed by WP:BRD, more specifically Wikipedia:Edit warring#What edit warring is – a Wikipedia policy that excludes the BRD cycle from edit warring. None of the material I added has ever been disputed; the fact that R. J. Rummel sees a causal link between communist ideology and mass killing is the only thing all editors working on the article have been able to agree on.

Here are three diffs related to my second edit:

  1. the edit itself
  2. diff from my previous edit in the same section
  3. diff from the disputed content edit warred over

The diffs shows three words in common with my first edit and one word in common with the disputed content.

On a general note, I would like the arbitration committee to specify, if the following two statements are a correct interpretation of the relevant policies, Wikipedia:Edit warring and WP:3RR

  1. 3RR only applies to edit warring; the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is not edit warring and is not subject to 1 / 3RR restrictions.
  2. An edit should be considered part of the BRD cycle and not edit warring, if it addresses a substantial objection raised by another editor (weasel words, BLP violation) – even if it retains a large part of the challenged content.

-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 21:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vecrumba

I have noticed "BRD" being used to spin-doctor (my perception) reverts as being something else. (Diffs are not material, I'm not here to litigate any particular instance.) Where a BRD sets off an edit/revert war, I can see the original BRD being exempt from the edit revert chain, but only as long as:

  1. the original BRD itself is not re-inserted, substantially unmodified (or modified not at all) from its initial instantiation; and
  2. where there is no initial BRD, "BRD" is not invoked to reinsert substantially unmodified (or modified not at all) content from earlier instantiations of versions which comprise an edit war already in progress.

In either event: reinserting an (initial) BRD in a chain of reverts or claiming BRD within a chain of reverts, the claim for "BRD" is nullified, as to not do so would encourage editors to circumvent #RR restrictions by offering the revert "advantage" to any editor who is first out of the gate to claim "BRD." I would like to know if my interpretation is correct. Best, PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 18:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC) reply

P.S. The corollary here is that claiming "BRD" to side-step rules on edit-warring may be construed as Wiki-lawyering. Edit-warring trumps BRD, not BRD trumps edit-warring. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 18:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Collect

The proimary issue is that where an article is clearly and multiply marked as "1RR", is it proper to assert "BRD" when the (at least partial) contents of two reverts clearly have been on and off reverted in the past? Where such a warning is not clearly marked (which has certainly been the case in the past) I would think the argument of BRD had merit. However, the case in hand does not have the benefit of that caution at all.

There is another issue -- has "Digwuren" now been excessively stretched? I have just been officially "warned" which means I can not edit anything about the London victory parade of 1946 -- an article I did not even know existed! Where "Digwuren" is thus so stretched, ought Arbcom sua sponte consider limiting that decision which has now been stretched more than a Hefty bag in a commercial? Collect ( talk) 19:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC) reply


Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Generally speaking, edit-warring is a pattern of conduct; it is difficult to say whether a single, isolated edit constitutes edit-warring. From your description of the context, I would say that you inserted yourself in an ongoing edit war, if nothing else; this may or may not have been a good decision on your part, and may or may not be considered sanctionable behavior by administrators enforcing discretionary sanctions in this area.

    As far as your other question is concerned, 3RR (and similar rules) apply to any revert, whether it is part of a BRD cycle, a blind revert, or something else; engaging in BRD does not grant an exemption from revert limitations, and one can still be engaged in edit-warring even if BRD is offered—rightly or wrongly—as an excuse. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 17:48, 16 October 2010 (UTC) reply

  • I agree with the substance of Kirill's comments. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 05:36, 22 October 2010 (UTC) reply
  • I too agree with the substance of Kirill's comments. Risker ( talk) 03:15, 24 October 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Also agree with Kirill, and on a side-note that article appears to be a perennial dispute. One day, someone should get a list of all the articles that: (a) have far too many talk page archives (indicating incessant discussion); (b) have had protection applied many times; and/or (c) have been the subject of conduct raised in arbitration cases. And then do something about the articles to reduce the amount of conflict around them, and to objectively measure whether the articles are in fact improving over time. And to also look at measures to improve the quality and tone of the associated discussions (whether that be proposing topic bans for certain editors, or constructing a FAQ, or simply improving the article so there is less to argue over). Carcharoth ( talk) 05:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: WP:DIGWUREN

Initiated by Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk at 21:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request: reply

Statement by Piotrus

Several weeks ago, I've asked this question at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests. I've done so twice, but despite some (limited) discussion by editors, no arbitrator, to my knowledge, has joined the discussion. As such, I am repeating my question here, as an official request for clarification.

Regarding WP:DIGWUREN ( Wikipedia:General_sanctions), would it be:

  1. ) applicable to an editor who in a discussion, for example, at a general policy page (and not necessarily on an EE content article), makes bad faith / incivil remarks / PA regarding EE editors in general (for example, discussing the bias of "Slavic editors", identifying votes of editors as "X comes from a Slavic country" and makes similar arguments, the gist of which is arguing that EE editors are not neutral/biased
  2. ) applicable to an editor who in a discussion, for example, at a general policy page (and not necessarily on an EE content article), makes bad faith / incivil / PA remarks regarding another editor or editors by mentioning an EE-related ARBCOM case with expired sanctions to back the claim that "this editor is biased, as the XYZ case proves", "this editor has been found to be disruptive, to edit war, has supported editors who were found disruptive", and so on. In other words, is there any recourse when an editor is trying to damage another editor's reputation by citing/linking old ARBCOM findings, poising the well by reminding others "what bad, bad deed that evil person did X years ago"? To give more generic examples, related behaviors would include noting in a discussion that "should I remind you of the findings/sanctions of an arbcom case against you [implied: that editor has been sanctioned in the past, so his arguments should be suspect]", or more directly, "editor X was banned from this topic area [implied: so his arguments should be suspect]", or in a vote that "editor X was found to use a sock-puppet 3 years ago [implied: so his vote should count less]". Just to be clear, I understand that editors have the right to ask about another editor's history in discussions that center on that editors (such as during Requests for Adminship and other positions). My question relates to other, content-related discussions, where such comments are similar to a regular personal attack (but instead saying "editor X is a troll", what is said is "editor X has been sanctioned in the past"). Either comment is irrelevant to the discussion in question (sanctions in questions have expired), but the second one is more insidious, as by invoking administrative/arbcom findings/sanctions it creates the illusion of having the "Wikipedia rules" behind it.

If WP:DIGWUREN is not applicable, I'd appreciate comments what, if any, policies are, and where such behavior can be reported (or are editors just supposed to take such poisoned comments for years and decades)?

I will note that this request for clarification does not pertain to any current incident. Rather, it is based on numerous incidents I've seen in the past year or so, incidents which I believe keep the EE battleground still simmering, but which at this point I am not sure what is the correct avenue, if any, to deal with. Should a WP:DIGWUREN AE request be made in such cases, or...? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Replies. Yes, Biophys, I am very fond of forgiving and forgetting, and yes, you are right that continued harassment leads to editor loss ( some thoughts of mine on this). I have to say I am surprised that the comments from Arbitrators seem to indicate that they see nothing wrong with such combative attitude which is the primary reason why the old battlegrounds are still smoldering. I am also confused as those comments seem to be quite different from the comments that the admins make on AE (see for example current case here). Where the arbitrators seem to be very lenient, the AE admins seem to be rather strict. What am I missing? Are the interaction bans the only way that harassing and sniping, hounding can be stopped around here? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Biophys

Piotrus, do you mean that everyone must just forgive and forget, and this is it? Yes, that would help to make this place much better, but this is also a dramatic attitude change. It is not uncommon that administrator X wants to block user A for doing something because user A did the same a couple years ago. It is also frequently claimed that user A (who currently is in good standing) should not switch to a different account because no one should be dissociated with his edit history, and therefore nothing can be forgotten. This situation forces some people to resign. I am not talking about things like the gradually increasing blocks for violating the same topic ban. But, yes, forgetting others would be a great idea, but this should start from administrators. Biophys ( talk) 12:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I agree that no one should use expressions like "EEML people" (e.g. here and here), which assumes a collective responsibility. Some participants of the mailing list did not receive any sanctions in relation to the list. One should only talk about individual editors sanctioned in EEML case if their sanctions did not expire. Biophys ( talk) 04:53, 8 September 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by other user

I think that if an editor has a complaint about this that they should take it to ANI rather than AE. There is nothing in Digwuren or other AE cases to guide the administrators here. TFD ( talk) 04:48, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • No, there is no sanction for using a user's own appropriate history in discussions of current behavioral problems. Wikipedia editors should be mature enough to know that 1) everyone makes mistakes, 2) good people move beyond them, and editors who edit without repeating problems in the distant past should be given appropriately more consideration than someone who's just come off of a block for the same action, and 3) one's reputation on-wiki is what it is. In general, I do not favor suppressing, via technical means or by prior restraints on on-wiki speech for mentioning, legitimate history. There is a way to overcome a sanction, and it is pretty straightforward: abide by it, and don't ever get involved in the same problems again. In that way, anyone who cares to bring up the past sanction just makes themselves look like a fool for doing so when the issue clearly does not apply to present reality. Jclemens ( talk) 00:47, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply
  • In general, I think the answer is 'no'. If editors start arguing about Eastern European topics on an article talk page and the arguments spill over onto other pages, for example user talk or the admin noticeboard, and uninvolved admins apply arbitration enforcement blocks for those editors who were uncivil, regardless of where they were uncivil, that would be ok. However, I think the question here is significantly different, and under those circumstances it wouldn't be covered by arbitration enforcement. PhilKnight ( talk) 01:45, 29 August 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with both JClemens and Phil. SirFozzie ( talk) 21:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Without endorsing the behaviour you're describing, I pretty much agree with above. It's simply not written into the (aging) case as described in your examples. This doesn't mean there aren't other dispute resolution paths or venues available. – xeno talk 23:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: WP:DIGWUREN or WP:ARBMAC

Initiated by TransporterMan ( TALK) at 21:00, 15 September 2011 (UTC) reply

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by TransporterMan

Do articles about Slovenia or Slovenian matters come within the Eastern European or, less likely, Balkan discretionary sanctions and, if so, which? I am not advocating for inclusion or exclusion, just wish clarification, but would note that Doremo and Doncsecz are involved in a long term slow-motion edit war at Slovene dialects which might cool if one or the other of the sets of sanctions apply. (To their credit, they are seeking dispute resolution at Third Opinion.)

@ArbClerks: When archiving occurs, I request archiving to both Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren and Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Macedonia. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Fut.Perf.

Answer as a non-arb, but as somebody who has been active in enforcing both sets of sanctions: my personal stance would be that, since both decisions allow for a "widely construed" field of application, I'd have little qualms in using either or both in respect to this country. Where I come from, "Balkan" certainly comprises all of former Yugoslavia. However, my willingness to invoke these sanctions would depend to a high extent on the question whether the type of conflict involved in a given case is comparable with the typical profile of conflicts these sanction rules are made to handle – i.e., mostly, inter-ethnic and nationally motivated historical and political conflicts. In the specific case you mention, the issue seems to be much less political and more of an internal language-related kind. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Doremo (party to dispute)

Geographers disagree on the eastern/central and Balkan/non-Balkan categorization of Slovenia. So it's difficult to say what the scope of the discretionary sanctions are in relation to Slovenia. User Fut.Perf. is correct that the dispute involves a language issue and not a political issue; that is, it does not have an inter-ethnic/national dimension. The slow-motion edit war ended on 8 September after I refused to revert. I've tried to summarize the issue at Talk:Slovene_dialects#What_is_this_fight_about.3F. In any case, the dispute appears to be inactive now because I was successful in soliciting a 3rd opinion as well as additional input from another editor at WikiProject Slovenia at the suggestion of user TechnoSymbiosis. The result is that consensus was achieved, user Doncsecz himself/herself reverted his/her changes, and another editor (Yerpo) restored balance (removed undue weight) from the article. Doremo ( talk) 04:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Generally agree with FPaS that it would probably fall under the category of broadly construed. SirFozzie ( talk) 09:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with Future Perfect and SirFozzie, the sanctions apply in this instance as Slovenia is part of Eastern Europe and The Balkans, broadly interpreted. PhilKnight ( talk) 12:49, 16 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I think that the original intent when we said "Eastern Europe" is mostly about cultural rather than geographical lines; and given that we gave leeway to construe the field broadly, then I agree with FPaS and my colleagues above that Slovenia is reasonably included. —  Coren  (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Concur with the above. Jclemens ( talk) 03:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Also concur. It's worth noting, incidentally, that the question of which set of discretionary sanctions is applicable here is essentially an academic one, as any particular sanction may legitimately be imposed under the terms of either case. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 22:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed. The Cavalry ( Message me) 12:45, 23 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I believe this can be archived. – xeno talk 14:27, 3 October 2011 (UTC) reply

A proposed amendment to a sanctions remedy

A motion has been proposed that would amend a sanctions remedy in this case. It would replace the remedy in this case that allows administrators to unilaterally apply sanctions to editors within the designated topic area with a standardized remedy that essentially allows for the same thing. Any extant sanctions or warnings made according to the older wording found in those decisions (as applicable) remain unaffected. To comment on this proposal, please go to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions. NW ( Talk) 20:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Request to amend prior case: Digwuren

Initiated by Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... at 05:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Case affected
Digwuren arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Remedy 12: Discretionary sanctions
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

  • That the topic bans placed on The Last Angry Man and Igny here be modified to allow participation in the current Mediation Cabal case.

Statement by Steven Zhang

The administrator who placed the topic bans, Mkativerata ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), detailed that the topic bans of three and six months for TLAM and Igny respectively would also prohibit participation to the Mediation Cabal case. In my opinion this is not in the best interests in the mediation. For mediation to be successful in the long term, participation from all parties is required, and a short term topic ban which includes the mediation case may make any agreement from the remaining parties have less chance of being an agreement that will stick. If incivility or bad faith accusations are a problem, perhaps the committee could consider a penalty for further incivility or bad faith behaviour at MedCab, say, their topic ban length is reset. But I think it's wise to allow them to participate in the case, and request the Committee modify the topic bans to allow this. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 05:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@Mkativerata, I agree that the behaviour of the named editors has been substantially below par. We need to make it in the interests of the parties to not disrupt/be uncivil/bad faith the MedCab process, for example, a three strikes rule. All parties have been put on notice, but perhaps strike one, warning, strike 2 is one week topic ban, strike three is one year/indef topic ban. None of us are admins, no but this could be delegated to us to deal with incivility etc at MedCab. As for blocks , we have over 1000 admins to deal with blocks. From past experiences with MedCab cases that have topic banned editors excluded generally causes issues once their topic bans expire. The mediation has more chance of long term success if they are included in the discussion. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 06:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

To respond to a few points that were raised,

  1. On AE being the proper forum to take this, I didn't consider taking this to AE as my understanding is that appeals by the sanctioned users were to be made there, not amendments requested by outside parties. TLAM and Igny were topic banned under the discretionary sanctions from the Digwuren case, so to me this was the most appropriate place to raise the matter.
  2. On MedCab being informal dispute resolution, I agree, in the past it has been an informal dispute resolution method. A recent reshuffle of the DR hierarchy has made MedCab more of an intermediate option between MedCom and lower forms of DR, such as Third Opinions and the dispute resolution noticeboard. In theory this could be kicked up to MedCom and someone there could take over, but in all honesty I think the three of us are competent mediators and see no real reason ArbCom can't make an exception to the rule in this case.
  3. On appointing an administrator to deal with conduct issues within the MedCab, I hardly think this is necessary or required. I think I can be trusted enough and am experienced enough to keep an eye on behaviour, and request administrator assistance from one of the 1000 or so administrators we have if required. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 20:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@ArbCom (especially Risker), in my opinion the key is a balance between giving too much slack and strangling them with a choke chain. If these users are put on such a short leash that one misstep gets them automatically topic banned for a year, we risk stifling the mediation as they fear anything they say could be used against them. That's why the Mediation Committee has privileged mediation, to facilitate open discussion between parties in order to achieve resolution. Another concern I have is that putting these two users only on such a short leash opens them up to potential baiting by the other parties. In theory, the other parties could be slightly uncivil etc, and they could do nothing about it, if they were to respond in kind, they'd be instantly topic banned. Some time after the Prem Rawat 2 closed, I requested the Arbitration Committee to extend this normal privelige that MedCom cases get to that MedCab case. Instead the case was kicked up to MedCom, where I partly helped assist resolve the dispute. Such action isn't really possible nowadays, as I am told MedCom has updated their policies etc.

I am somewhat conflicted as to whether to request this MedCab case be offered that privilege. On one hand I do think it will help facilitate open discussion, on the other hand there is the potential for it to be gamed. I realise that such a suggestion will also be met with opposition from various people commenting on this request. While I realise that what I have requested her is unusual, I have been doing content dispute resolution for quite some time and have had my part in a fair few tricky disputes. I wouldn't make such requests if I didn't think it would provide long term benefit to the dispute. I also note that all parties have agreed to the ground rules that I laid down at the start of the case. Perhaps something could be implemented where only proceedings on the MedCab case page are privileged, but with the caveat that any abuse of this to be uncivil, excessively rude etc could be reported to an administrator at our discretion.

With all due respect, I know how to mediate. I feel I am perfectly capable of dealing with uncivil behaviour and requesting administrator assistance if so required, and don't feel it necessary to have an admin appointed to watch over the case. If one is really required, I would prefer AGK ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). These conditions would not apply outside of MedCab, and we are happy to keep a close eye on discussions that occur outside of MedCab to ensure that no one crosses the line on behaviour. In the end, it is your decision as a committee. In my opinion, doing nothing would be a mistake. While I'm no fortune teller, this dispute is not going to have a quick fix, it will potentially take months to resolve. As it stands, one topic ban expires in 3 mths, one in 6. If the mediation is still open at either point, we risk having to re-discuss or do a backflip on proceedings, and in my opinion this is not a positive thing if there is another way to make this work (like I have suggested). I can't tell you what to do, only what I think is right, but I hope you will consider my opinion when making a decision. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 07:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@TransporterMan, you've hit the nail right on the head there. I agree that this is a simple request and it should not be overly complicated. As for TLAM commenting here, he is free and able to do so. Arbitration and Arbitration Enforcement are two general exceptions to topic bans. Perhaps you could post a reminder to him with the details on his talk page. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 19:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@ArbCom, I must say I am a little disappointed that this is still sitting here without further comment. Sure, I could go to AE, but in my opinion it's a bit of a waste of time, and process for the sake of process. Two things could happen, 1) The decision at AE is to allow the topic banned users to participate, which means we reach the same end result as we would have here but waste more time doing so or b) The decision at AE is to not allow the parties to participate, which means I would come back here and appeal that decision. Either way time is wasted. I'd urge the arbitrators to consider IAR for a minute and make a decision here and now. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 20:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@ArbCom, I refer to this AE request where it has become apparent that AE will not produce a result as suggested by several arbitrators below. As Tznaki stated, "I think the end result here will to be to bounce back to ArbCom with AE deciding not to overturn". Therefore I bring it back here to request ArbCom to make a decision either way, as I think this thread being open for weeks or months will be unprofuctive. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:06, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@Tznkai, for what it's worth, I count NuclearWarfare, T.Canens, Cailil and yourself in favour of allowing the exception, with the banning admin and EdJohnson opposing. Seems like a consensus to me. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@Tznkai, very well then. Not overly happy with the outcome but apparently my views don't matter as much as I thought. There's not a lot I can do about that. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Mr. Stradivarius

I am another mediator in the MedCab Holodomor case. I agree with Steven Zhang - I think the result of the mediation will stick better if Igny and The Last Angry Man are both allowed to take part. I also agree that maintaining civility in the mediation is of utmost importance, and that proceedings could be hampered by incivility or personal attacks. I am not sure if/how this should be enforced, however, and I will be happy to accept the arbitration committee's judgement on the matter. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 06:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Responding to some of the points made so far. First of all, sorry for the venue confusion - I wasn't aware of the fine distinctions in ArbCom pages when I first commented on Steven's proposal. Second, I would agree to have an uninvolved administrator monitor the mediation for civility violations. I don't agree with Steven here - I appreciate that we have the RfA process for a reason, and I wouldn't be comfortable with being delegated power to block users without having the community approval that passing an RfA entails. Third, Tammsalu makes the good point that Igny may not have participated very much in this mediation anyway. I think it would be a good idea to hear from Igny and The Last Angry Man themselves to hear what their attitudes to the mediation are. Their stances may have changed after the topic bans and after reading the comments here and in the AE thread. Regards — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 07:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
After reading the statement by TransporterMan, I have to concur with his stance on the strictness of the participation conditions. While of course, incivility and disruption by the topic-banned editors should not be tolerated, making the conditions too strict may well stop them from voicing their opinions, and could open them to baiting from other editors. Rather than very strict conditions and constant monitoring, I think the effectiveness of the mediation would be better supported by slightly more relaxed conditions and a highly structured mediation process. (Steven has outlined the process at the mediation page here, and you can see the draft proposals page here.) — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 05:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Mkativerata (admin who applied the topic bans)

I explicitly included MEDCAB in the topic bans, as would ordinarily be assumed to be the case. The topic bans were for behaviour that included, among other things, TLAM referring to his opponents as a "pro communist cabal" ( [39]), and Igny saying in the AE itself that "I will add more comments here after the WP:EEML team rushes here for TLAM's defence and mud slinging." I judged that this was plainly not behaviour consistent with engaging constructively in dispute resolution. I believe I was correct to make that judgement, and that Arbcom should find no reason to interfere with it. I also note that none of the mediators appear to be admins. If I am correct in that, they would not have no power to block either user for disrupting the MEDCAB process, or for transgressing their topic bans, whether on a MEDCAB page or elsewhere. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 06:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Just one point. Yes we have 1000 or so administrators. But Arbcom will be well aware that only a very small fraction are willing to put their hand up for arbitration enforcement. Just look at the current AE page. We shouldn't overburden the admin corps more by allowing two users topic-banned for largely behavioural reasons to participate in non-binding dispute resolution under the supervision of a volunteer administrator. Our finite resources can be much better targeted than by an indulgence of that kind for two editors, who I should not have so far neither appealed their bans nor made any request to participate in MEDCAB despite them. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 21:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply
@TransporterMan: WP:DIGWUREN, which is the authority for the topic ban, says: "The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." It needs not be said that when an editor is "banned from any editing related to the topic" for battleground behaviour, the ban includes content-related dispute resolution processes. In any case, I would have included MEDCAB within this ban regardless of whether doing so is the norm. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 19:03, 12 October 2011 (UTC) reply

After this matter has returned to AE by way of an AE appeal, I have modified the topic bans for Igny and TLAM in accordance with these terms. The terms were worked out in consultation with Steven Zhang and fellow AE admins. I think that means there is no more work for Arbcom to do here. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 20:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC) reply

statement by uninvolved Collect

Propose a "short leash" rule. On the first use of any inapt language on the mediation pages, or any pages relating thereto in any way (including user talk pages), the topic ban be fully reinstated and doubled - that is, if either makes posts or edit summaries which are uncivil or accusatory of others being in any "group", "team", "mailing list" or "cabal" without furnishing specific and compelling evidence thereof, that the offender's topic bans be doubled in length and that they be so informed upon entry to the mediation. I further suggest that this be dependent on MEDCAB obtaining approval from a fully uninvolved adminstrator willing to examine the posts. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

By the way, I concur that altering another's posts on this page is a serious violation of etiquette no matter what the point the person is making. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 19:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Biophys

This is not a matter to be decided by Arbcom. Of course they could remove completely all discretionary sanctions in Digwuren case, but that was not requested. Making a specific exemption for two editors would be inappropriate interference in AE business. If these two editors want their AE sanctions to be modified or lifted, they must submit an appeal to AE, as stipulated in previous Arbcom decisions. Biophys ( talk) 14:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Agree with EdJohnston below. The mediation can proceed without these editors. Biophys ( talk) 00:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • It also might be good to appoint an additional mediator (as Newyorkbrad suggested). However, this is not admin versus non-admin question. That should be someone familiar with the subject of the dispute, someone like Moreschi. Actually, this is the biggest problem in the entire AE area right now: admins rule on behavior of users, but the behavior can be misleading. Of course they also read content of discussions, but non-expert admins tend to make two common mistakes:
  1. If a research publication was widely debated in press and by peers (praise and criticism as usual), they tend to assume that it was "controversial". Actually, such publications are either the best as the most highly cited (if written by experts on the subject, e.g. "Gulag Archipelago") or the worst if written by revisionist pseudoscientists like Dyukov. But one needs to know who is who.
  2. If a user does not curse others, talks a lot, copy-paste numerous quotes from sources he likes at article talk pages, and denounce sources he does not like as "non-academic", admins tend to think that he is an expert. No. Real experts are too busy with their studies in real life and have no time for creating walls of text on wikipedia talk pages. Biophys ( talk) 13:27, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by EdJohnston

By going directly to Arbcom, this request seems to take a shortcut around AE. Unclear why there is any need for that. The first step would normally be to ask the admin who imposed the sanction (Mkativerata) to consider modifying the restriction. Since the sanction was for WP:BATTLE behavior, it is not obvious why adding these two parties to the mediation would be a win. Their absence might actually lead to a swifter conclusion of the mediation, if all the charges are correct. Finally, this request does not ask for any actual amendment to the DIGWUREN decision. Neither Igny nor The Last Angry Man was placed under any particular sanction by Arbcom in the DIGWUREN case. The topic bans we are discussing were placed by Mkativerata under discretionary sanctions. There is a whole different appeal process for that. EdJohnston ( talk) 19:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Paul Siebert

From the very beginning, I proposed to exclude the MedCab case from the topic ban, and I do not find the initial Mkativerata's explanation (or the lack thereof) convincing. In my opinion, the most reasonable proposal has been made by Collect, and I would like to develop it a little bit further to address some Mkativerata's and Newyorkbrad's concerns. In my opinion, TLAM and Igny may be allowed to participate in the MedCab provided that they will strictly observe all possible decorum rules; any violation of these rules, if reported by the mediators (not by other participants), will automatically lead to one year topic ban. I see no technical problems with realisation of this proposal, and I do not understand how the mediation process may be impaired by that.
One more point. It is quite possible that the MedCab will last more than 3 months, which means that one of two topic banned users will join the discussion, and we will probably need to go back to address some of the arguments he was not able to put forward timely due to his ban. That will disturb the mediation process, and I do not think this is a result the admins want to achieve.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 01:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Tammsalu

User:Igny mentioned he was pulling out of mediation in any case due to real life issues [40], so discussion of his possible participation is moot. -- Martin Tammsalu ( talk) 03:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by TransporterMan

I'm one of the MedCab mediators on this case and apologize for being late to the party; real world issues have interfered over the last week. In some ways, the decision on this request goes to the positive and negative reasons for why DR exists and why it is here: to benefit Wikipedia by settling disputes, hopefully positively through consensus, but sometimes negatively by just getting them settled to stop the disruption. If we have editors who feel so strongly about this that they're just going to wait out their topic bans and start changing the article again, then the mediation is a waste of time without them. Getting them in and allowing them to help craft the solution at least potentially avoids that result. I therefore support the idea of allowing an exception to the topic ban for The Last Angry Man (noting that Igny has chosen not to participate). It seems that the solutions to this request are becoming too complicated with a montoring sysop and double or nothing sanctions. The sanctions in question are a "voluntary" topic ban, in the sense that he has not been blocked and is capable of editing anywhere he pleases to do so. No one is officially or semi-officially monitoring TLAM on that ban at the present time. Various eyes could be watching, of course, but should he violate the ban it would far more likely that someone would just happen to have to come along, just happen to notice the violation, and choose to report it to AE. All we are requesting here is that the topic ban be relaxed for MedCab and that Steven (or perhaps any two of the three mediators if you do not want to just let one do it) be given the right to reinstitute the full breadth of the ban should TLAM's behavior deteriorate in any of those venues to the point the mediators feel that it is interfering with the mediation process, with the only needed action being:

  • To relax: A note on TLAM's talk page by Mkativerata or an ArbCom member or clerk setting the parameters of the relaxation and the mediator(s) right to reinstitue it, along with a corresponding note at Digwuren's Log of blocks and bans, and
  • To reinstiute: The mediator(s) leaving a note reinstituting it on TLAM's talk page and at the Diguren log.

A strict "one bad word and he's gone" standard, especially (but not only) one which either is being continuously scrutinized or second-guessed by parties outside the mediation or which results in a longer ban is inimical to the mediation process. Indeed, my feeling is that the only consequence of behaving badly in the mediation ought to be the risk that he will be excluded from it, not that he will suffer blocks or bans because of it. (The flip side of this, however, should be that any decision of the mediator(s) to reinstate the full breadth of the topic ban should not be appealable: the relaxation should be considered to be an act of grace entirely for the benefit of the mediation and thus the encyclopedia, and not to the slightest degree for TLAM's personal right or interest, which can be revoked without cause or explanation at any time it appears that the encyclopedia is not receiving the desired benefit.)

Finally, before much more time is spent on this it would be well to find out if TLAM wants to participate further in the mediation, but of course he cannot comment on that question unless he is given permission. Would Mkativerata consider relaxing the ban to at least allow that question to be asked and answered here on this page? Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 18:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@Russavia: Per this it would appear that the sockpuppetry issue has been settled unless you have new evidence. If you do, are you going to take it to SPI? If so, it might influence how I feel about this. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 19:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
@Russavia: Thank you for the link to the clarification request, that helps clarify the present situation. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 13:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply
@Russavia: I've not examined the evidence and do not know or, at this point, have an opinion about whether or not TLAM is or is not a sock of Mark Nutley, but I'd like to presume for the sake of this question (only) that he is, indeed, a Nutley sock. I can certainly understand why that ought to cause TLAM to be blocked altogether and indefinitely but unless that is going to happen then I would ask you why that fact ought to otherwise bear on this request. To say it in another way: He's either (a) a sock and ought to be gone altogether, which would solve the question of his participation in the mediation, or (b) he's not a sock and would be valuable to the mediation process for the reasons stated by the mediators here, or (c) he's a sock (or strongly suspected but unproven sock) that the community has chosen to tolerate. The question is this: If the community isn't going to do (a), why should there be a difference between (b) and (c) for purposes of this request? Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC) reply
@Mkativerata: I wish I had noticed this much earlier, but Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Exceptions_to_limited_bans expressly allows a topic-banned editor to participate in good faith in dispute resolution:

Unless stated otherwise, a restricted editor may make edits that would otherwise be a violation of the restriction if it is part of proper dispute resolution, so long as it is done in good faith. For example, an editor who is restricted from interacting with an another editor may ask an administrator to look into conduct by the other editor.

The "unless stated otherwise" clearly applies in this case, as you expressly mentioned "No exception for MEDCAB" in your AE ruling. But I must wonder whether you would have included that restriction had it not been for Paul Siebert expressly (but, in light of policy, unnecessarily) requesting an exception from MedCab. Would you have? And if you would not have included, would you have gone back and expanded the topic ban to include it if you had learned that he was participating in MedCab under the authority of the banning policy exception? Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 18:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Qwyrxian

I volunteer to be the monitoring admin. I'm the admin who fully protected the article, and who opened the mediation request. I am not a party to the dispute. I have, as far as I am aware, never been a party to any dispute relating to WP:DIGWUREN]. Assuming that the arbitrators find that this is the appropriate venue, that it is a positive solution to have one or both of these parties involved in the mediation, then I am willing to monitor the mediation for any improper behavior. I am also willing to discuss any possible problems with the mediators themselves. I won't be reading any of the actual sources, nor do I have any interest in actually forming an opinion on the article contents themselves--I would strictly be monitoring from improper behavior on the part of these two editors. I would prefer that the consequences for violating these conditions be made quite clear though--specifically, does a violation in mediation actually count as a "normal" violation, thus extending the current 3 months topic? Regarding whether or not allowing a specific exception? My opinion is that it is a good idea, as pointed out above. There's no sense in working really hard for several months to get a consensus, just to have LATM come back in 3 months and say "But none of you accounted for X, Y, and Z, so I cannot accept the results of this mediation. Revert." This exception would essentially be given with the understanding that if LATM violates the conditions, they're essentially forfeiting their "right" to object later (if a stable consensus is achieved). Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply
Just to clarify, this presumes that TransporterMan's statement above is accurate and the user in question is not a sockpuppet of a banned/blocked/topic-banned editor. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Tristessa de St Ange

As a member of the Mediation Committee who used to be coordinator of the MedCab. I would be happy to endorse on AE/AN that an exception should be permitted for the purposes of the MedCab case and take responsibility for supervision. This case could alternatively be referred to us at the MedCom, but I would prefer to see the existing mediation case allowed to continue as it stands before a request for formal mediation being made. I am also willing to be the uninvolved administrator/mediator mentioned by Newyorkbrad if necessary. -- Tristessa (talk) 11:43, 16 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by TLAM

In response to the question posted on my talk page the response is yes, I believe mediation will help improve the article in question and also give myself an insight into how mediation works. I should like to thank the mediators for their requests in relaxing the topic ban to allow myself to continue with the dispute resolution process. The Last Angry Man ( talk) 22:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vecrumba

Should there not be some expectation of decorum here? I did not join WP to read fulminations on canine genitalia. And is there a reason some editors continue to advocate for outright bans of others whom they disapprove of? That is not seeking resolution of conflict, rather, that is escalating conflict. I've already commented elsewhere on the alleged sockpuppetry. Whatever is decided here should be consistent with the past and be on solid enough ground to be a basis to set a precedent going forward. PЄTЄRS J V ► TALK 16:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Russavia

Under no circumstances should TLAM be allowed to participate in anything on WP. Refer to WP:SOCK and User:Marknutley. It is disappointing that Arbs are suggesting that an obvious sockpuppet should be allowed to participate in anything on WP; particularly given the clarification request. Russavia Let's dialogue 19:34, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

TransporterMan, there is currently a clarification request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request_for_clarification:_Arbcom-unblocked_editors in relation to this. The committee has yet to comment directly on this case at that request, and it should be making comment directly in relation to it. I have provided a few admins confidential evidence, some of which has already been given to the committee, but the other half has not yet been provided to the Arbcom. When almost every uninvolved admin has stated their belief that this is a sockpuppet, I am not yet going to file any SPI, only because to do so would be to be required to divulge evidence which gives Marknutley/TLAM insight into his editing traits that have given him away. I have already provided a few of these traits. Any editor is welcome to do their own comparison of MK/TLAM and his other socks, to see that the behavioural evidence is there. Russavia Let's dialogue 07:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply
And a quick additional comment, I am not going to supply the Committee with the additional evidence, because to do so will to allow them to ignore clear behavioural traits, and totally convincing traits at that, as they have already done. Once they fob off yet more evidence, and refuse to even so much as remotely answer direct and straightforward questions in relation to this case, that evidence will become off-limits and unusable. Hence why any evidence has thus far been limited to trusted admins, whilst other editors are welcome to do their own investigation and comparison of edits; it took me all of an hour or so to compile a convincing list; and only a few minutes to find traits that stuck out like dog's balls. Perhaps once Arbs attend to the clarification request with direct answers, instead of beating around the bush and refusing to comment on the case directly, I may then provide them with evidence, but not whilst they are engaging in murkification instead of clarification. Russavia Let's dialogue 07:48, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Tznkai

Given the nature of AE, we have tended to be, and last I checked still are, rather deferential to the enforcing administrator. Going above our heads, such as it is, is probably more efficient, especially when seeking to directly overrule a ban provision. I personally do not see a problem with letting any sort of mediation, formal or informal, go forward, so long as we trust the person managing the mediation. If a MEDCAB'er is volunteering their time, let them. Spill over effects should be minimal at best, and bans are easy to reapply.-- Tznkai ( talk) 23:15, 12 October 2011 (UTC) reply

As pointed out to me by Transporter man on my talk page, Mkativerata's statment that "It needs not be said that when an editor is "banned from any editing related to the topic" for battleground behaviour, the ban includes content-related dispute resolution processes." is in conflict with the written banning policy. I changed the policy text but not the substance on 29 September. The relevant provision was

The following exceptions to article, topic and interaction bans are usually recognized:

  • [...]
  • Legitimate and necessary dispute resolution, that is, addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum. Examples include asking an administrator to take action against a violation of an interaction ban by the other party (but normally not more than once), asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban, or appealing the ban for a good reason.
I replaced that with:
  • Unless stated otherwise, a restricted editor may make edits that would otherwise be a violation of the restriction if it is part of proper dispute resolution, so long as it is done in good faith. For example, an editor who is restricted from interacting with an another editor may ask an administrator to look into conduct by the other editor.
  • A restricted editor may always ask for clarification about their restrictions, appeal the restriction in the appropriate forum, and may always respond to threads on administrative noticeboards that directly complain about, or seek to sanction the restricted editor.
I'm not sure if this issue is on point or not, and I believe my revised text is faithful to the policy as it actually exists. I again reiterate, that both personally and as a matter of Wikipedia norms, we should pursue resolving disputes when possible, rather than managing disputes by topic bans. Hope is not a strategy.-- Tznkai ( talk) 18:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC) reply
Just want to point out that AE is not a court of appeals, and what is actually happening so far is nothing. as I've stated here we are, and should be, very deferential to decision the "man on the spot" as it were. I disagree with Mkativerata's decision and his reasoning thus far, and hope he changes his mind, but I do not believe it is my place to overturn it, barring establishing a consensus of some sort. That does not mean that the Arbitration Committee should be as deferential. Indeed, it shouldn't, because there is no effective review of discretionary sanctions other than the committee. The arbitration enforcement structure essentially leaves us answerable to only one authority. If ArbCom isn't at least willing in the abstract to review sanctions, it should set up some sort of fairly muscular and agile (read: small) review process. The alternative is an incentive structure where AE admins will rush to get their decision in "first" and then go about in an imperial manner, with their decisions essentially untouchable.-- Tznkai ( talk) 00:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply
RE to Steve's point on headcount, no, you should count my !vote as a provisional oppose. My gut instinct is that Mkativerata's reasons for making his decision are much better than they have been described already. As I said, I would have made a different decision, but there is nothing thus far that gives sufficient reason to override someone else's decision. To do that, I would have to be convinced that the original decision was extremely defective.-- Tznkai ( talk) 00:32, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
  • Now that the sanctioning administrator has agreed to modify the ban he imposed, I believe this discussion is moot? NW ( Talk) 18:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC) reply
    • Agreed. The Clerk is asked to archive this thread. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 00:54, 31 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Biophys is partly correct. ArbCom should not be the first stop on appeal AE sanctions, but if the resulting discussion is unclear on the consensus, then bringing it to us would be the next logical step. Normally, we allow exceptions to sanctions for the purposes of "formal dispute resolution" (such as Mediation Committee and/or Arbitration Committee) cases. However, the Mediation Cabal is INformal dispute resolution. (per its mandate). Therefore my suggestion is that the proper venue for this request is an AE Appeal (either at AE, or one of the AN noticeboards), and coming back here if unclear. SirFozzie ( talk) 16:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • My initial inclination would be to allow these two users to participate in a MedCab mediation if an experienced mediator opines that this would be useful, as appears to be the case here. If they or anyone else become disruptive of the mediation pages, they can and should swiftly be disinvited. ¶ I note Mkativerata's last point, that the mediator is not an administrator and therefore might need help keeping order on the mediation pages, and I think it would be useful if an uninvolved, experienced administrator were to volunteer to assist with this mediation. ¶ Regarding the proper forum for this request, those opining that it should be presented as a discretionary-sanctions appeal on AE are correct as a formal matter; however, I am increasingly concerned that (not due to anyone's fault but simply the accretion of safeguards and procedures over time), the different types of requests and forms of appeal are becoming an impenetrable bureaucratic thicket to the vast majority of editors who are fortunate enough not to live their wikilives on the arbitration pages. At some point, something must be done about this, but I am not sure what. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 20:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply
    • As this request has now been granted at Arbitration Enforcement, I agree with the Clerk that the request here has become moot. The Clerk is asked to archive the thread. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 00:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I kinda like Collect's "double-or-nothing" rule. I think that's something that AE could explore, but again, not sure if ArbCom needs to be the body ruling on it. Jclemens ( talk) 01:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I disagree with some of my colleagues about the proper venue; the option is an "either/or" one, and this is as appropriate a venue as is Arbitration Enforcement. While I would be willing to consider lifting the sanction strictly for the purpose of participating in mediation, it would need to be on the proviso that *any* violation would reinstate a full topic ban, that an uninvolved administrator agree to monitor the situation and respond to concerns expressed by the mediators, that the mediators undertake to notify this administrator of any potential violation, and that removal of one or more of the parties from the scope of the mediation due to sanctions in the mediation process or any other process will not immediately invalidate the mediation. I would not want to see a potential resolution of the dispute go down the tubes because one or more of the parties is unable to proceed partway through. Risker ( talk) 04:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with my colleagues above that this is best brought to AE. I'm certain that the considered opinions of the mediators is going to be taken into account when the discussion takes place there. —  Coren  (talk) 17:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Having looked at the comments at AE at the time the topic ban was imposed, especially in light of the re-emergence of the sockpuppeting allegations which question arbcoms unban decision, and the comments above, I dont think that there is a good reason to overrule the AE admin. John Vandenberg ( chat) 05:28, 20 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • In general, I think ArbCom should only overrule a decision made by an admin if the decision was seriously flawed, or if new information has come to light. In this case, the decision made by the admin was an entirely reasonable judgment call, and in this context, I don't think we should overrule the decision. PhilKnight ( talk) 16:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Request to amend prior case: Discretionary sanctions in cases named after individual editors

Initiated by T. Canens ( talk) at 11:43, 26 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Case affected
Digwuren arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Martinphi-ScienceApologist arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Abd-William M. Connolley arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. The "Standard discretionary sanctions" section, variously named and numbered.
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
N/A: the suggested amendment is cosmetic.

Amendment 1

Statement by Timotheus Canens

This request is prompted by a recent AE request, in which the practice of naming the applicable discretionary sanctions provision after an editor caused confusion on an editor who is not very familiar with the AE process. The three listed cases are the only cases named after individual editor(s) with a discretionary sanctions provision, according to WP:AC/DS; all other cases are named after the relevant topic area instead.

I recommend that the Committee make a cosmetic amendment that allows these discretionary provisions to be easily referenced using an arbitration case named after the subject area instead of individual editor(s). Not only is the latter approach rather counterintuitive and potentially confusing (if someone unfamiliar with AE wants to look up the discretionary sanctions provision for Eastern Europe, WP:DIGWUREN is not really the most obvious place to look), but it is also rather unfair to the editors at issue to have their usernames perpetuated in literally years of AE requests that usually have nothing to do with them. Digwuren ( talk · contribs), for example, has not edited since June 2009, yet his username has been, and will be, by necessity, brought up in all AE discussions related to Eastern Europe simply because, by happenstance, the discretionary sanctions in this topic area was passed in a case named after him. As Newyorkbrad observed in a somewhat analogous situation, such a situation is "neither dignified nor fair". T. Canens ( talk) 11:43, 26 February 2012 (UTC) reply

@Kirill:
  • For Martinphi-ScienceApologist, my suggestion is to move the entire discretionary sanctions apparatus to the existing Pseudoscience arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t). The discretionary sanctions in this area were added by motion simultaneously to both the Pseudoscience case and the M-SA case, so the log is already split across two cases. When the Committee standardized discretionary sanctions, the new phrasing was added only to the M-SA case.
  • For Digwuren, the problem is that we already have the Eastern European disputes arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t) which post-dates this case. Maybe simply "Eastern Europe"?
  • For Abd-WMC, perhaps "Cold fusion 2"? T. Canens ( talk) 17:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
@EdJohnston: WP:ARBRB doesn't have any remedy targeting non-parties to the case, which is why I didn't include it in the list. T. Canens ( talk) 08:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by Eraserhead1

Seems like an excellent idea Tim.

Statement by EdJohnston

I support Tim's proposal to rename these cases. Replacing 'Digwuren' with 'Eastern Europe' sounds good. The acronym WP:ARBEE is available even though WP:EE is in use. Another option is WP:EECASE. We should not worry too much about confusing the proposed name, 'Eastern Europe', with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes, since that case is less well known and there have been no enforcement actions since 2009. Tim did not mention Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys, also known as WP:ARBRB. If you want to include ARBRB in the reform, then how about 'Former Soviet Union' as a new name. EdJohnston ( talk) 07:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

@Tim: I accept your reasoning for why ARBRB should not be included in the reform.
@Courcelles: Keeping 'Eastern Europe' in the revised case name For Digwuren would be a benefit not a disadvantage. The older cases, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes and WP:EEML, are historical curiosities and they don't need to be referred to very often. It is unlikely that any violations are going to be reported at AE in 2012 under these cases. WP:DIGWUREN is frequently cited at AE but it could logically be renamed to something like Eastern Europe. EdJohnston ( talk) 18:54, 8 March 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by Russavia

I would also like for WP:ARBRB to be renamed to something that does not include my username. I see no reason why I should also be required to put up with an Arb case being named (partly) after me, when the issues of the case were deeper than that -- as suggested by Ed above. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 10:06, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by Volunteer Marek

This has been suggested before, IIRC, had some support but because it wasn't seen as urgent at the time no one got around to carrying through. This is a good time to implement it then. I think Tim articulates the reasons for why this is a good idea quite well, so I don't have much to add on that.

All of Timotheus C's and EdJohnston's specific renaming suggestion are good. VolunteerMarek 16:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vecrumba

This is both long overdue and welcome.

  • I would suggest ARB-EE for Eastern European disputes OUTSIDE the Soviet legacy--DIGWUREN is the appropriate basis: the later EE arbitration case actually resulted in some level of amnesty and moving forward; all the sanctions are in the Digwuren case (the one-sided naming has always been a problem as well).
  • I also suggest/second ARB-FSU (Former Soviet Union) for Soviet legacy cases (historic portrayal) as well as current geopolitics, i.e., Russia related to South Ossetia, Transnistria, et al. as well as the wider conflict between official Russia and the Eastern European countries over the Soviet legacy.

To some of the other comments, I don't see that EEML poses any confusion issue. This does leave us with what I see as one issue remaining regarding the above and all that has been stated so far:

  • "EE" is not really the appropriate rename for DIGWUREN, as I believe the sanctions have exhibited considerable scope creep outside the original Baltic purview. It might be more appropriate to consider a name completely outside the EE realm, a bit wordy but ARB-GEOPOLITICS might be what we are really after.

I would like to see a more active approach to renaming cases as soon as their enforcement bounds move beyond the scope of the original case and editors involved. There is no useful purpose to stigmatizing editors on any side of an issue manifesting strong disagreements amongst editors. I trust that actions here will set a positive precedent. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 19:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Seems the previous case that is named Eastern European Disputes was renamed for similar reasons as it was also previously named after a specific editor. However, it appears the Digwuren case has been the only one cited with regards to sanctions in the topic area. Not sure what the appropriate action would be there but several of the same editors are mentioned in those two cases and they involve the same topic area. As far as potential short names I think WP:EEUR or WP:EASTEUR would be good ones as they are regularly-used abbreviations and sufficiently distinct from the existing short names such as EEML.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 21:20, 4 March 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I see no problems with a cosmetic amendment of this sort in principle. Timotheus, please identify suitable new names for the three cases you mention, and we will proceed from there. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 16:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with Kirill. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 16:44, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • I also support this proposal. (In the case of Digwuren, we need to be careful not to confuse the new case name with the similar but separate Eastern European mailing list.) AGK [•] 22:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • As one who spent nine months trying to figure out what DIGWUREN was an acronym for, I fully support more sensible names - Eastern Europe disputes (perhaps abbreviated to WP:EED)) would be so much more intelligible. -- Elen of the Roads ( talk) 23:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • If we're going to do this, can we come up with something for Diguren that doesn't include the phrase "Eastern Europenan"? With EED and EEML already out there, another case title like that is just going to be confusing. Actually, I've always thought that Digquren and Macedonia having discretionary sanctions was overkill, and could be consolidated, since the area covered by Macedonia's sanctions is just s subset of Eastern Europe. Might be worth considering while we're here... Courcelles 14:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • The discretionary sanctions provision of Digwuren has the scope of "Articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted". I share the view of Ed and the other observers that the similarly-named cases (EEML being the most prominent) are nevertheless infrequently cited. I therefore propose as follows. AGK [•] 01:05, 9 March 2012 (UTC) reply

Motion: To rename Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren

1) The case Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren is renamed to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe. For the new title of Eastern Europe, WP:ARBEURO and WP:ARBEE are created as shortcuts. For the purposes of procedure, the index of topics with an active discretionary sanctions provision will be updated with the new title, but previous references to the Digwuren decision do not require to be updated. The rename of the Digwuren case to Eastern Europe is only for clarity in reference, and does not invalidate any previous action or pending sanctions taken under the provisions of this case.

For this motion, there are 13 active non-recused arbitrators, so 7 is a majority.


Support
  1. Proposed per above discussion. Many variants on Eastern Europe, such as Eastern Europe disputes, do exist, but I know from experience with enforcement that simpler case names are far less bothersome. AGK [•] 01:05, 9 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  2. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 01:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  3. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 02:03, 9 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  4. As long as whatever it is isn't confusing to others, it's fine by me. -- Elen of the Roads ( talk) 04:13, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  5. PhilKnight ( talk) 11:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  6. Per comments above. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 19:13, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  7. Jclemens ( talk) 20:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  8. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:08, 14 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  9. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 12:53, 17 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  10. Not perfect (per Courcelles) but a good step towards depersonalising this,   Roger Davies talk 05:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC) reply
Oppose
  1. No, not in this form. The correct solution as I see here is that these sanctions, the Macedonia sanctions, and the AA ones should be consolidated into a single broad set of discretionary sanctions, instead of these three overlapping, vague decisions. I'd support renaming this case, transferring Macedonia and Armenia-Azerbaijan sanctions here, and making the scope something like "the counties and territories of the Former Soviet Union, Former Yugoslavia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, and Cyprus." Mabe not in these words, or those countries, but IMO, the solution here is to consolidate these three overlapping sanctions into one, not rename the Digwuren case into a vague, non-descript name that resembles other cases. Courcelles 17:33, 14 March 2012 (UTC) reply
    The three cases you mention cover fundamentally distinct conflicts (by which I meant that the associated real-world disputes are not substantially similar in nature, nor related to some common cause or constrained within some common geographic region), so I'm not sure why we'd want to combine those cases and not, say, the conceptually similar discretionary sanctions provisions for the Israeli-Palestinian disputes, etc. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 18:05, 14 March 2012 (UTC) reply
    They're not the same conflict, but they are within what the Digwuren case covers, which is the broad and vague topic of Eastern Europe. The cases were over different areas -- but the cases almost don't matter now, just the topic areas covered, and Digquren covers, in broad terms, what also have sanctions in AA and Macedonia cases. The problem isn't that the three cases overlapped in focus, but that the Digwuren sanctions sort of make the other two unnecessary if "Eastern Europe" is taken to make everything it can mean, and that having three sets of the same sanctions is nothing but a chance for wikilawyering. Courcelles 02:22, 15 March 2012 (UTC) reply
Abstain
Comment by Arbitrators

Clarification request: Eastern Europe

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Nug ( talk) at 20:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC) reply

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Nug

Are Admins required to place the notice of discretionary sanction on IPs, particularly static IPs, and add them to WP:ARBEE#List_of_editors_placed_on_notice? In two recent 3RN cases [41] [42], User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise blocked both User:Jaan (and FPoS did not take into account there was no diff warning Jaan, unlike admin Kuru did in a subsequent case [43]) and User:16.120.84.244 for breaching the 3RR rule. He subsequently noticed Jaan [44] and added him to the log [45], but did not do the same for the static IP. I asked him why [46], but seems to be ignoring my question [47]. It seems other admins treat IPs equally, for example User_talk:184.36.234.102, but apparently not FPaS. Could the Committee give direction on this. Thanks. -- Nug ( talk) 20:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC) reply

FPaS states: "I didn't feel like it, because the IP editor was new to the area and I wasn't yet seeing a consistent pattern of problems." seems somewhat disturbing. Jaan had a clean block log and four GAs (while nowhere near as many as some of the Wiki-superstars is still pretty good in the Baltic topic area), so what "consistent pattern of problems" did FPaS observe in Jaan? I don't recall Jaan ever being involved in revert wars previously. Did he observe Jaan was from Estonia from his user page and concluded "Yep, from Estonia, therefore a problem", then added an Arb notice for good measure? -- Nug ( talk) 20:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC) reply

[Annoyed grunt] by Fut.Perf.

This is about nothing. I gave two users a standard (and therefore unlogged) 3RR block. I gave one of them a standard (and properly logged) arb warning at the same time. This is not about formalities of logging stuff, nor about how to treat IPs. It's simply about the fact that Nug, POV ally of the editor I warned, is unhappy I didn't warn the other guy too. Well, so what? I didn't feel like it, because the IP editor was new to the area and I wasn't yet seeing a consistent pattern of problems. But I warned him now, because he resumed edit-warring in the same way immediately after coming back from the block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • As it says on the tin, "All sanctions imposed under the provisions of a particular arbitration case are to be logged in the appropriate section of the case page".   Roger Davies talk 14:38, 9 July 2012 (UTC) reply
  • The existence of discretionary sanctions doesn't change the ability of admins to hand out standard, garden-variety edit-warring blocks. Of course, whether a block is filed as an AE block or not does change whether the restrictions on removing an AE block come into play. But there is nothing in the rules that requires a block that could be filed as an AE one be so filed. But, if an IP is going to be sanctioned under AE, the paperwork must be done, just as if it was an account that is blocked. Also, as far as I'm concerned, the templated notification is basically an individual "heads up" regarding the different conditions some articles operate under, and not some form of indictment of wrong-doing. Courcelles 00:35, 10 July 2012 (UTC) reply
  • An admin may elect to use AE sanctions or community sanctions according to their judgement of the circumstances, so Fut.Perf.'s explanation seems reasonable. Where Fut.Perf may have erred, was in not responding to a legitimate query as to his actions as admins are accountable for their actions: "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." However, as it was the same day as posting the question that this clarification was opened, it's possible that Nug may have been a little impatient, and a second request to Fut.Perf. would have been more in keeping with the collegiate environment we attempt to create. There is no obligation on any user to answer queries in any particular order, and it is not uncommon for people to work upwards on their talkpage rather than downwards, or even to miss a query if a second one came in quickly. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:47, 10 July 2012 (UTC) reply
  • I pretty much agree with Courcelles and SilkTork. In any event, this seems moot now, as the static IP has been warned as well. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 19:53, 12 July 2012 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for clarification (November 2014) Discretionary sanctions alerts

Original Request

Vandenberg confirmed that a caution was intended and the alert template was removed -- S Philbrick (Talk) 18:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC) reply

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by  Sandstein  at 16:21, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
WP:AC/DS

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Sandstein

Today, John Vandenberg, an administrator, alerted me about the discretionary sanctions applying to the Eastern Europe topic area, and logged this as a "notification" on the case page, which he later changed to a "warning". Judging by an earlier comment, he did so to register his disapproval of my speedy deletion of an article created by a sock of a banned user. After I removed the alert after having read it, it was immediately reinstated by an anonymous user, 41.223.50.67.

Per WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts the purpose of such alerts is to advise an editor that discretionary sanctions are in force for an area of conflict. I am and have been active as an administrator by issuing discretionary sanctions in this topic area, and am therefore perfectly aware of the existence of these sanctions, as John Vandenberg confirmed he knew. The alert therefore served no procedure-based purpose. This also applies to the unneeded logging on the case page: Unlike earlier notifications, alerts are not logged on a case page because they can be searched for with an edit filter. John Vandenberg knew this because he used the correct alert template as provided for in WP:AC/DS.

It therefore appears that John Vandenberg used the alert procedure and the log entry not to actually inform me about discretionary sanctions, but that he misused the alerts procedure to mark his disapproval of a deletion I made and to deter me from making further admin actions in this area with which he disagrees. That is disruptive because this is not the purpose of alerts, and it is not how admins are expected to communicate with each other about disagreements concerning each other's actions. It is also disruptive because it has had the effect, whether intended or not, to create the incorrect impression in another administrator that I am disqualified from acting as an admin in this topic area because I received this alert.

To the extent the now-"warning" is meant as a sanction in and of itself, it is meritless and disruptive: The speedy deletion I made was compliant with WP:CSD#G5, and does not conflict with the prior AfD because the ban evasion issue was not considered there. Any concerns about this deletion should have been discussed at deletion review.

Per WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts, "any editor who issues alerts disruptively may be sanctioned". Nobody other than the Arbitration Committee is authorized to issue such sanctions. I therefore ask the Committee to clarify that alerts should not be used for any other than their intended purpose, and to take such actions (e.g., issuing a warning) as it deems appropriate to ensure that John Vandenberg will not continue to issue alerts disruptively. By way of appeal of discretionary sanctions, I also ask the Committee to remove the "warning" from the log as being without merit.

Prior to making this request, I discussed the issue with John Vandenberg, but we failed to reach an understanding, and he invited me to submit this matter to this forum for review.  Sandstein  16:21, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

I cannot understand John Vandenberg's contention that I used admin tools while involved. I have never interacted with "Polandball" or related pages or users editorially, but only in an administrative capacity. Per WP:INVOLVED, such continued administrative activity does not speak to bias (even if others may not agree with the admin actions), but is instead merely part of an admin's job. John Vandenberg's casting of unfounded aspersions of misusing admin tools and of "battleground mentality" is also disruptive. As I said elsewhere, I did fail to take into consideration that my alerting the user who filed a DRV request concerning an AfD I closed might be perceived as an improperly adversarial action, even though an alert is not supposed to be one and I didn't oppose the restoration of the article proposed at DRV. I'll keep this in mind in a similar future situation. Nonetheless, because alerts may be issued by anyone, including involved users, the alert raises no question of involvement.

As concerns the "warning", either it is meant as a discretionary sanction for misconduct (as the warning by me he cites was) and in this case is appealed here as meritless and disruptive, or it is not and has therefore no place in a log under the new procedures.  Sandstein  18:30, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

John Vandenberg: Alerts are not admin actions because they neither require advanced permissions nor are they restricted to administrators. But neither are they editorial actions that speak to bias and would disqualify an admin that issues them, because they are intended to be neutral and informative in nature. Are you seriously contending that merely issuing an alert makes me involved and unable to act as an administrator, and on that basis you alerted and warned me? It should be obvious that this can't be the case, if only because by that logic your own warning would be inadmissible because it was preceded by your alert which would have disqualified you from acting further.

This episode indicates, to me, that this whole alerts system is unworkably cludgy and may need to be scrapped if even former arbitrators can't understand it, and that perhaps general clarification is needed that discretionary sanctions and alerts are, shall we we say, not the ideal way to respond to concerns about admin actions - such concerns are normally a matter for the Committee alone.  Sandstein  21:51, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by John Vandenberg

To my mind, Sandstein is obviously ' WP:INVOLVED' in the current DRV about Polandball, however not surprisingly he claims to be uninvolved. To quickly recap, he is the admin who deleted the article at DRV; when notified of the DRV, he decided to issue a DS alert to the person who initiated the DRV, and speedy delete another related article which had survived an AFD and was mentioned on the current DRV. When User:Nick undid the speedy deletion, Sandstein also demanded that Nick redelete it. IMO, this is fairly clear battleground mentality, only including the use of admin buttons for good measure. All quite unnecessary, as a sizable chunk of the community would participate in the DRV, so his voice there would be heard. It is very strange logic that Sandstein felt he had to alert user:Josve05a about discretionary sanctions, but objects to me feeling the same way about his own editing/admining in this topical area. He claims his alert to user:Josve05a was not an admin action (otherwise he would surely run afoul of ' WP:INVOLVED'), but then cant see he is participating as a normal contributor. Maybe he considers a DS alert to be a friendly chat, when he gives one to someone else ...

Anyway, the nature of this clarification is the use of alerts and the logging of them on case pages. Obviously some serious saber rattling would have quickly occurred had I sanctioned Sandstein, so I went with an alert only with a stern message with the hope he could see how others were viewing it. He didnt; he continued to post aggressively. When I found the right DS alert template and posted it, the edit filter notice reminded me to check if he had been notified any time in the last 12 months, and press Save again if I was sure it had not occurred. As I didnt find any prior notices (in edit filter log or on talk page archives), I proceeded to save the alert. I then went to the relevant arbcase to log it as is the usual procedure. I knew DS had been standardised earlier this year, and was pleasantly surprised by the edit filter logging, but it didnt occur to me that alerts would not be logged. The arbcase log for the EE case had all the signs of logging being part of the standard procedure.

Since Sandstein objected to the logging, I went and had a look at other cases and found quite a few examples of the log including notifications and warnings; I did offer to give Sandstein examples of such notices and warnings, but we are here now. Here are the ones that I've quickly found in arbcom case logs since April 2014.

If it is no longer appropriate to log alerts/notices/warnings on the arbcom case, an edit filter should be added to ensure admins are aware of this change. John Vandenberg ( chat) 17:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

@Sandstein, when you put a notice on user talk:Josve05a, were you doing that as an admin or as a normal user? If it was the "editor Sandstein" who popped that friendly note on user talk:Josve05a, and not the "admin Sandstein", can't you see that you've become INVOLVED? John Vandenberg ( chat) 18:41, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply
@Sandstein, so you issued a DS alert to user talk:Josve05a with your "editor Sandstein" hat on, and you want admins to be exempt from discretionary sanctions? Thanks. John Vandenberg ( chat) 01:17, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by Nick

I've nothing to add to the clarification and amendment section, but I will state, as I have repeatedly said, I'm really getting fed up watching good content be deleted and destroyed as a result of battleground mentality. It genuinely makes me sad watching material that people have put their heart and soul into, being deleted because it was written by this week's bogeyman. Nick ( talk) 17:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

@Future Perfect at Sunrise. The CSD-G5 criteria cannot be used on any page that has survived a deletion discussion (AfD). The CSD-G5 deletion by Sandstein was out of process. Please refer to Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Pages_that_have_survived_deletion_discussions for further information. Regards, Nick ( talk) 12:16, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by Olive

If the DS alert is going to be used without a sting it has to be used for everyone all the time. Its common for editors to know an article is under DS, but this isn't something one can assume. Of course, the use of the alert can been abused and can be seen as threatening. Use that is universal will over time render the warning as commonplace and standard, will de sting. Whether it was used in this instance as an implied threat, I don't know or care. Behind many of the actions I've seen against editors over the years are threats, some so complex as to be almost invisible. I know how that feels, so am not condoning anything that threatens but unless we deal with the surface level of an action and ignore assumption we will never get to supportive editing situations.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 19:04, 1 November 2014 (UTC)) reply

Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

One of the goals of the recent reforms which turned "warnings" to "alerts" was to remove the stigma of the warning/alert. Apparently, that stigma is alive and well. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 22:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment by Alanscottwalker

Giving a "warning" is an administrative function. Its only purpose is administration of the website. No, a User does not have to have privileges to do much of administration on Wikipedia. The idea is anathema to the community, which expects good users to administer, even to requiring such at RfAdmin, moreover, the website would not function, if users did not step up. So no, giving a warning does not mean one is INVOLVED. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 01:40, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment by Fut.Perf.

John Vandenberg's actions in this case are wrong on so many levels at once it's hard to know where to start. About his technical misunderstanding of the nature of alerts and the non-logging of "warnings", I think all has been said. More importantly, his warning was wrong on its merits. As for the speedying of Why didn't you invest in Eastern Poland? (the only issue he actually mentioned in the warning), Sandstein was processing a valid G5 speedy; the fact that there had been an earlier "keep" AfD is obviously irrelevant as long as the facts justifying the speedy weren't known and discussed during the AfD. As for Sandstein's actions in the Polandball issue, which seems to be what John Vandenberg is really more concerned about, the claim that he was showing an inadmissable battleground attitude is utter nonsense when you look at his actual, very measured and balanced, comments in that DRV. Finally, the "warning", whether logged or not, was also out of process. A "warning" under DS means that I, an administrator, will hand out a block or topic ban to you, the person I am warning, if you repeat the behaviour I am warning you over. Does John Vandenberg seriously believe he would be entitled to block Sandstein if he did a G5 speedy like this again in the future? That beggars belief. Even if John Vandenberg had legitimate reasons to be concerned over Sandstein's actions, then his recourse would be not to impose "sanctions" on him, but to ask Arbcom to review Sandstein's actions; that, however, is not in any way inside the scope of what the DS are about, and therefore also doesn't belong in the DS logs. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:14, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment by Neotarf

This request is eerily similar to this one made some time ago, where four editors were given "civility warnings" by Sandstein, apparently at random. The result of the clarification request was a delinking of the four names in the ARBATC case page. If any action other than delinking is recommended for the current situation, it would only be reasonable to revisit the other situation as well. — Neotarf ( talk) 02:53, 3 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment by Ncmvocalist

Perhaps AGK needs to take a step back and reconsider what it is that is being said rather than apparently typing rash replies. I am sure it would not be difficult to demonstrate how involved they have been in this "DS" rewrite project (on or off wiki), and maybe that is why he is naturally inclined to be defensive of it (even bordering what people term as ownership mentality - eg "I have spent hours editing this....").

I recall he previously said in relation to this topic (but on a separate matter) 'I will not have it said that any issue relating to DS has been rashly dismissed, particularly after an exhausting, year-long consultation. I'm sorry to have to point out that you are not coming in at the eleventh hour, but a year and a half late.' But the simple fact is, there is genuine concern or criticism regarding how convoluted and time-consuming the DS system is to the vast majority of users, and even if it is now two years later, I am sorry to say his replies below do seem to me to rashly dismiss those concerns ( [48] [49]) and are not consistent with what is expected here.

It is so patently obvious that a number of editors, administrators, and for that matter, former arbitrators and current arbitrators have in fact needed to take quite a bit of time to go through this 'system', and that it is by no means 'simple', 'easy to use', or 'working' by extension. Now that this reality is finally noted, I would suggest at least the rest of Committee rectifies the issue. It would be good if that happened. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC) reply

I too would repeat this comment by A Quest For Knowledge. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Discretionary sanctions alerts: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • When I get back from a trip on Monday, I will wade into the technicalities here. For now, I will simply note that Russavia is surely laughing his ass off at the drama he is causing here without even trying. Let's all try not to give him more reason to do so. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 18:03, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply
    • I spent the past half hour or so reading over the back-story to this request, and perhaps I am in the advanced stages of serving out my last term as an arbitrator, but I really wish I hadn't. Let's back up a step. "The purpose of Wikipedia is to create a high-quality encyclopedia, in an environment of collaboration and community among the contributors." The entire administrative apparatus, including "discretionary sanctions" and the arbitration process and the other WP: pages where some of us spend too much of our wikitime, is ancillary to the objectives of Wikipedia that brought us all here. Debating the rules of these administrative processes should not become, in intent or in effect, an end in itself. Put differently, if the bickering about the rule-sets governing administrative processes on Wikipedia has become more complicated than some of the real-world rule-sets that I interpret every day as a litigation attorney, something is wrong. The dispute, or set of disputes, crystalized in this request is so many levels removed from the purpose and objectives of Wikipedia that it is sad. Beyond that, I will leave sorting out the fine points here to my colleagues who were more active in the DS recodification project. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 03:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC) reply
      • What? I do not think it fair to say that anyone in this request is requesting clarification with non-constructive motives. These editors have a legitimate need of a ruling here, and you cannot legitimately refuse to be understanding of that and still expect the project's administrators to do their job. AGK [•] 23:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • There is an alarming failure here to grasp the distinction between the two relevant procedural entities. Cautions or warnings are sanctions and need logged; alerts (previously known as notices) are not sanctions and carry no implicit accusation of guilt. These two used to be more or less the same thing. In the recent update of procedures, they were split off and it is wrong to interchange them. John Vandenberg needs to decide whether he wanted to caution and sanction Sandstein (it appears he did) or alert him. If it is the former, he should issue Sandstein with a hand-written caution (and delete the alert template, which he may not use for that purpose). If it is the latter, Sandstein is already aware per point II of the relevant procedure and he must not attempt to 're-alert' him. I accept JV's claim that he was not aware of the changes in procedure, but I would remind him and all administrators generally that, before engaging in this process, you must take five minutes to update yourself on these changes. If you do not, you can be sanctioned by the committee, and given that this process is hardly in its infancy you are likely to find the committee exercises this right.

    On the complaint of JV about Sandstein, my position is that it cannot be heard in this venue. With the procedural confusion clarified (not that there should have been any in the first place), I suggest JV take this complaint up, perhaps with a handful of other administrators, directly with Sandstein. Neither party appears to have made an adequate effort to resolve this together, despite, as administrators, being obliged to do so. Should those attempts prove futile, a proper case request should then be filed. AGK [•] 12:31, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

  • I essentially agree with AGK. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:26, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I also agree with AGK. T. Canens ( talk) 20:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • As do I. WormTT( talk) 08:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • And I. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I do as well but it's frustrating the amount of time I had to spend, back several months ago, to get a solid grasp of how this system works. Brad makes a point: the system is quite complicated, and has become a bit of a self-contained beast. While I was able to pick it up, I'm afraid it would simply be incredibly daunting for any new user to navigate. NativeForeigner Talk 05:04, 17 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • AGK summarises things well but makes one key mis-step. He asks that: "I would remind him and all administrators generally that, before engaging in this process, you must take five minutes to update yourself on these changes." The response by NativeForeigner and NYB show that the estimate of 'five minutes' to update oneself on these changes is a woeful underestimate. What is needed here is some feedback from newer admins on how easy it is to understand the system as it currently stands. It is also incredibly important that ordinary editors, especially those potentially facing sanctions, find the system easy to use. If the system fails that test, then it will be unfit for purpose. Carcharoth ( talk) 02:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • @ Carcharoth: DS is easy to understand, because we put months of effort into writing polished, clear documentation for it. NYB and NF are not good test cases: while voting earlier this year, they had to get to grips with both the new system and the changes made from the old system. Current administrators merely need to read and follow WP:AC/DS.

    More to the point, the new system is working. Let us leave it at that. AGK [•] 06:14, 25 November 2014 (UTC) reply

  • I'm not sure there's much useful left to add at this point. I'll ask the clerks to archive it,   Roger Davies talk 11:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for amendment (December 2014)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by  Sandstein  at 19:31, 27 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Case affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Presumptive discretionary sanction of 1 November 2014 by John Vandenberg
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
Information about amendment request

For the reasons detailed below, I ask that the Committee

  • sanction John Vandenberg for misuse of discretionary sanctions and failure to communicate, and
  • remove his presumptive discretionary sanction against me, by way of appeal as provided by WP:AC/DS#Appeals and modifications.

Statement by Sandstein

As set out in a request for clarification on 1 November 2014, John Vandenberg issued me earlier that day with, confusingly, an " alert", " notification" or " warning" supposedly per WP:AC/DS for alleged misconduct on my part in the Eastern Europe topic area, and logged this on the WP:ARBEE case page in the section "Log of blocks and bans". The request for clarification concluded on 10 December 2014 with most arbitrators agreeing with AGK, who noted that as an alert per WP:AC/DS this action would have been inadmissible and that John Vandenberg needs to decide whether his action was meant as an alert or as a discretionary sanction, in which case he would need to issue a "hand-written caution". Despite my repeated requests ( [50], [51]) to do so, John Vandenberg has responded only with evasive one-liners ( [52], [53]) before ceasing to edit altogether. A further clarification, promised in his last edit on 10 December 2014 for "tomorrow", has not been forthcoming.

John Vandenberg has violated the conduct rules that apply to admins in two respects:

  • John Vandenberg's issuing the alert, notification or warning to me was frivolous and disruptive. There are no grounds for either a discretionary sanction or any other admin action against me. To the extent I can discern any relationship between his actions and any actions by me at all, the one action by me to which John Vandenberg expressed an objection was a normal admin action, to wit, deleting a page created by a sock of a banned user, Russavia, as directed by WP:CSD#G5. Even if this deletion could have been deemed objectionable (there was an earlier AfD, but in my view it was no bar to speedy deletion because that discussion didn't know about the ban evasion), John Vandenberg would have been out of line by responding to it with discretionary sanctions, meant to address misconduct arising from disputes about topics related to Eastern Europe, rather than with a civil query and a discussion among admin colleagues, and possibly with the community at deletion review or elsewhere, which would have been the expected way to settle good faith disagreements among admins about the merits of contested admin actions. Instead, he chose a course of action either intended to or at any rate having the effect of furthering the block-evading activity of a banned user's sockpuppets, by inappropriately stifling normal admin action intended to counteract such activity by way of the "chilling effect" of discretionary sanctions.
  • Moreover, John Vandenberg violated the admin policy's requirement that "administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." Additionally, WP:AC/DS specifies that admins "must not ... repeatedly fail to properly explain their enforcement actions". John Vandenberg failed these expectations by failing to respond to my repeated queries – made necessary by the conclusion of the clarification request – about whether his action was intended as a sanction or as an alert, and to my repeated queries about the specific reasons why the sanction (if it is one) was imposed. His lack of response has so far prevented me from properly appealing the presumptive sanction. Per WP:AC/DS, admins failing to meet the expectations set out in that procedure "may be subject to any remedy the committee consider appropriate, including desysopping".

For these reasons, I ask the Committee to sanction John Vandenberg to the extent necessary to prevent further misuse of the discretionary sanctions procedure. I also ask the Committee to strike John Vandenberg's warning from the enforcement log – either as an out-of-place and superfluous alert, or as a groundless sanction, which is hereby appealed in case it is a sanction. Finally, I ask the Committee to clarify that discretionary sanctions are not to be used in lieu of discussion among admins about whether good-faith admin actions are appropriate or not.

In consideration of the already long time elapsed solely because of John Vandenberg's confusing and dilatory conduct, I ask that this request not be suspended or declined on account of his apparent absence from Wikipedia. Thanks,  Sandstein  19:31, 27 December 2014 (UTC) reply

@ AGK: Sorry, but I don't see how the matter would die a natural death, as you put it. The way I see it, I'm still subject to what is logged as a discretionary sanction that was, in my view, imposed for invalid reasons and in a disruptive manner for what I consider doing my normal admin duties, which it is impeding by its existence. I don't think that I'm being unreasonable by asking for it to be reviewed exactly as provided for by the procedure you helped write. But if you see another way to resolve this problem, I'm open to any advice.  Sandstein  07:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply
@ AGK: Thank you for removing whatever that was; I appreciate it. I remain of the view that John Vandenberg has, including by his lack of required communication in this matter, failed to meet the expectations in administrators as described in the discretionary sanctions procedure, in a manner that merits an action or statement by the Committee or its members. Otherwise, others may conclude that such an – at best – cavalier application of the procedure is in fact permissible or expected conduct, which I think would not be beneficial, including for the Committee's appeals workload.  Sandstein  09:55, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply
I note that several editors have commented to the effect that they consider (at least some some) admin actions by me to be uncollegial. This concerns me, but their comments are not specific enough for me to understand which actions they take issue with and why. I'd like to be able to understand and address their concerns, and would appreciate it if they could explain them in more detail, and with reference to specific actions by me, on my talk page. Thanks,  Sandstein  17:29, 1 January 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by Hawkeye7

First, let me state how sick and tired I am of good content being deleted and destroyed by gnomes under spurious speedy deletion criteria. The procedure is clear; if the deletion is contested there should be a proper deletion review. Once this has been done, if the result is for the article to be kept, then the article cannot be speedily deleted per WP:G5. WP:SPEEDY lists seven criteria, and this is not one of them. Maintaining otherwise by refiling this is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:BATTLEGROUND at its worst. John Vandenberg, a former Arb, is one of the most polite and patient admins we have. Absence from Wikipedia at this time of year is both normal and acceptable. In this hemisphere, the Christmas/New Year period falls in our Summer holidays and many firms shut down for two or three weeks.

Because Sandstein has:

  1. Failed to respond promptly and civilly to queries about Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed;
  2. Shown an WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality by filing this absurd request;
  3. Not showing any inclination to participate in reasoned dispute resolution (or just let the stupid matter drop);
  4. Continued to pursue a vendetta when told to knock it off;
  5. Has shown overwhelming hubris and arrogance in performance of admin duties; and above all
  6. Failed to demonstrate a substantial record of content creation which raises issues of WP:NOTHERE.

I therefore recommend that WP:BOOMERANG is in order and that Sandstein be admonished. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 21:19, 27 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by Psychonaut

Irrespective of whether Sandstein's deletion of the page was appropriate, it seems absurd to invoke or apply WP:ARBEE here. Discretionary sanctions are normally meted out to those whose strong personal views relating to a given subject area lead them to disrupt the corresponding articles and discussion pages. In my observation Sandstein has demonstrated no such personal attachment to the topic of Eastern Europe, nor am I aware of any history of his disrupting pages in this area. If his actions relating to Why didn't you invest in Eastern Poland? were mistaken, or even intentionally disruptive, this could and should have been dealt with through other measures. As John Vendenberg has so far failed to provide the required clarification for his WP:ARBEE warning, I think it would be appropriate for the Committee to strike or overturn it, without prejudice to his pursuing a discussion or remedy in some other venue. — Psychonaut ( talk) 11:17, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by Josve05a

  • On 11 May 2014 an editor raised the issue of the non-existence of an article on WP. Sandstein, the deleting admin, stated that it needed to be undeleted at WP:DRV.
  • On 1 November 2014 I independently started a deletion review. At the deletion review I raised issues relating to the notability and suitability of the article, and also re-assessed Sandstein's initial AfD closure
  • Sandstein made comments which insinuated I was proxying for banned editors.
  • Immediately after this, Sandstein gave me a discretionary sanctions warning. The lack of warning to any other editor made me feel that he was using his position as an administrator to intimidate me because I started the DRV and because I was a little critical of his initial deletion. I simply followed Sandstein's own advice to another editor to take the issue to DRV. This is not grounds for giving a baseless discretionary sanctions warning; Nick agreed and rescinded the warning given by Sandstein.
  • After another editor pulled the "racism" card in the DRV discussion, I asked Sandstein if he thought it was acceptable. He didn't do anything about it, and essentially claimed that the editor doesn't have a history of battleground disruption, when they do.

It is clearly evident that Sandstein is himself abusing the threat of discretionary sanctions as a tool to intimidate other editors. I agree with Hawkeye7 that WP:BOOMERANG has a place here. If Sandstein were to WP:DROPTHESTICK, things might be different, but at this point, that boomerang should be used given his continued battleground behavior at this very request and his very clearly demonstrated intimidation of other editors — I am certain is not an isolated case.

If Sandstein is willing to walk away from the carcass, this request should be closed off with the discretionary sanctions warning in place. If he is unwilling to do so I think an upgrade of the discretionary sanctions to a topic ban from the Eastern Europe topic area is in order, to give him time off from the entire topic area and to enable to re-assess his disruptive and intimidating behavior.

Statement by Giano

This is more of a comment than a statement, as I have been a long term observer rather than a participant in this sad and very sorry saga. However, it seems to me that any alerts/sanctions directed towards Sandstein need to be left firmly in place. He has consistently proved to be antagonistic towards Eastern European editors and editors of such pages. His aggressive, overpowering and often bullying behaviour (for example towards Josve05a is far from conducive to a collegiate atmosphere and only seems to cause further trouble and resentment. Sandstein is far too keen on the block button and totally intransigent in what are obviously, personal views. I see no good reason for him bringing this request. Giano (talk) 11:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply


Statement by Rich Farmbrough

I have to agree with Giano that there is a long term pattern of combative rather than collegial administrative actions by Sandstein, though I would say this is far more widespread than simply EE matters. I would urge Sandstein to remember that this is a co-operative endeavour, not one in which some editors are corralled by others into "desired behaviour". I would also urge @ Newyorkbrad: to disengage from his loathing (well known or otherwise) of Russavia: such feels are best left in Las Vegas.

A Happy New-Year! Rich  Farmbrough, 01:47, 1 January 2015 (UTC).

Statement by Fæ

My world view aligns with Rich's. Things are going badly wrong when trusted users cannot act in a collegiate manner and even worse when their first reaction is to reach for a stick and then ask for a bigger stick when that fails. It is a pity that Arbcom has no official trout to fix on user pages for six months. Perhaps soft remedies might be a smart idea for 2015?

@ Newyorkbrad: I had to raise an eyebrow at the idea that an Arbcom member would not automatically recuse and refrain from making any remark that might prejudice the outcome of a case when they have stated that they "loathe" a related party. We know Russavia can be supremely irritating, but this does not make him evil. Next time you are tempted to go after him, try dropping me or one of the established Commoners that work with him a friendly email; I'm sure you know most of us. It is likely to be a lot more effective when he has another silly poke at the bear. -- Fæ ( talk) 14:11, 1 January 2015 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I am actually minded to agree with part of Hawkeye's submission in this matter. Sandstein, I do not see what is to be achieved by this request, and I question why you are not letting this matter die the natural death for which it was on course. AGK [•] 23:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Sandstein, please just drop the stick. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:45, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I would vacate the warning, although there is an argument that I should recuse because of my well-known (and increasing) loathing of Russavia. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 18:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I also would vacate the warning. The DS system is designed for editorial actions, not admin actions. We explicitly banned sanctions that would "require the removal of user rights that cannot be granted by an administrator or restrict their usage", which necessarily implies that concerns about uses of admin tools should be taken to the committee, not the DS system. T. Canens ( talk) 02:41, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply
    • I removed the warning several days ago, by way of implementing the result of the previous hearing of this dispute. AGK [•] 08:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Please drop the stick. T Canens has sound reasoning, but as an additional note, I don't see any admin misconduct here. NativeForeigner Talk 10:05, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I agree that the warning should have been removed, but I don't see the need for sanctions. Now that AGK has removed the warning, I don't think there's anything more we need to do. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with GorillaWarfare. -- Euryalus ( talk) 05:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply
  • Also agreed with GorillaWarfare. I see nothing else that needs done here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:45, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply
  • I'll ask the Clerks to archive this now,   Roger Davies talk 06:50, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification request: Eastern Europe (February 2015)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by RGloucester at 23:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by RGloucester

The following request for clarification is submitted on the advice of Callanecc, following a report I submitted to AE.
Whilst the editor in question was plenty disruptive, I wonder why administrator Coffee blocked Russian editor1996 ( talk · contribs) According to his block notice, he issued the block under WP:ARBEE. However, it was not logged at WP:AC/DSL/2015 until I asked him about it. What's more, the editor was never issued an alert per WP:AC/DS. Coffee has not explained why the editor in question was blocked indefinitely, and I can see nothing that warrants such a block. This seems entirely out of process. Coffee responded that the block was per "IAR", but no reason was given for applying IAR, and I'm fairly certain that DS should not be issued in a willy-nilly manner. The editor in question had been present on Wikipedia for quite a while. He made only a few minor changes to Donbass war/Ukrainian crisis articles, and none of them particularly disruptive. I simply do not understand how this user was summarily blocked for no apparent reason. What's more, this was done under WP:ARBEE. The procedure for WP:ARBEE was completely ignored. I request that the Committee determine whether this application of DS was appropriate. If it was not, I request that Coffee be admonished, both for his inappropriate application of DS, and for his flippant behaviour in the face of accountability. RGloucester — ☎ 23:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC) reply
I think the suggestion by Courcelles is inappropriate, to say the least. This is a matter of principle. The block was inappropriately applied. Coffee must be admonished, and the sanction lifted. There were no grounds for a sanction. Ignoring the ARBEE issue, for a moment, can someone please tell me where they see grounds for an indefinite block in the blocked editor's edit history? RGloucester — ☎ 02:05, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply
Again, how is this acceptable? The user has no history of talk page engagement, so it is unlikely they can understand the unblocking process. The user was blocked for no reason. As Mr Davies noticed, no rationale was given other than "arbitration enforcement". If the "DS prohibitions no longer apply", what is the point of this block? Again, there was no rationale other than "arbitration enforcement", and no evidence of any kind of misconduct. How can you let this block stand? This is a travesty. RGloucester — ☎ 16:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by Coffee

I would restate what I had over at AE, but I find that not necessary as I believe most if not all of the Arbitrators here have looked at that. I will say that I was indeed forgetful regarding the proper DS procedure (it has been a minute since I performed one of those actions), and can assure you all I'll get it right the next time I feel it necessary to issue a block of this nature. The only other thing I'll state (even though I already stated this at AE) is that RGloucester himself stated at my talk page that "[Russian editor1996] was nothing but disruptive". Therefore, if he has any further questions regarding why that editor was blocked, he should consult our policies on DE. Happy Presidents Day to you all and it's good to see the system here still working. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Oh and lastly, all things taken into consideration, I'm fully behind the below motion made by Roger. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:05, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by Russian editor1996

Statement by Callanecc

I'll add what a bit of what I said on RGloucester's talk page:

The issue you want addressed is whether the Committee is happy with IAR being used to impose an out of process discretionary sanction. The sanction being out of process for a few reasons: it wasn't logged (which was fixed after you let them know), there was no alert and they weren't aware by other means, and discretionary sanctions can only be used for "blocks of up to one year in duration" not indefinite. The other issue here is that this block could have been placed as a normal admin action rather than as a discretionary sanction (unlike a TBAN for example). This looks to me like an admin coming back from a break and not familiarising themselves with a procedure which gives them wide ranging powers before using it, obviously that's just a guess though.

@ Courcelles: That would be my suggestion entirely. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 00:54, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by NE Ent

Russian editor1996

Could someone provide a single diff of why Russian editor1996 (RE96) is "plenty disruptive"? Looking at the their contributions I'm not seeing anything -- no POV pushing, no incivility, no edit warring, no posting to noticeboards -- just edits. Not perfect edits? Sure, but isn't that what we -- or at least used to -- encourage with WP:BEBOLD?

If we look at RE96's edit from a year and half ago, we see the addition of a fairly complete infobox, and comparing his additon to the current revision [54] seems to indicate no one has had much of a problem with that.

So the evidence suggests that RE96 is neither an "editor" nor anyone with any malice -- simply a "dabbler," if you will. File:Top_Wikipedians_compared_to_the_rest_of_the_community,_8_January_2014.svg shows us that dabblers have actually performed the overwhelming majority of (67%) of edits to the project. So how is blocking them without prior discussion benefiting the project? If we assume RE96 is a reasonably self-confident person without much of an agenda, why would they bother jumping through unblock hoops when they could simply spend their time somewhere else on the Internet? While I appreciate ya'll's willingness to declare the "arbcom" block an ordinary block, why not do the right thing and simply unblock RE96 until someone can explain why they should be blocked? "IAR" (or "because I felt like it") should not be considered as meeting the requirements of WP:ADMINACCT, nor a legit reason to be blocking folks.

Coffee

While we're here anyway: Arbcom 2014 stated "Administrators are expected to behave respectfully and civilly in their interactions with others. This requirement is not lessened by perceived or actual shortcomings in the conduct of others. Administrators who egregiously or repeatedly act in a problematic manner, or administrators who lose the trust or confidence of the community, may be sanctioned or have their access removed."

Coffee's statements to RGloucester [55], including why do you seem have a cactus lodged up your ass? ... Jesus christ, give it a rest. Or take it to AE if you like unnecessary drama. ... Hell, not even the editor in question has complained about being blocked. Yet, you're over here advocating for this guy like it's Christmas morning. Whatever floats your boat (I assume, drama)... clearly do not meet that standard. Although quite excessively snarky, I wouldn't say they're "egregious," nor am I aware of chronic history, such that I can argue we're in the admonishment zone, but a emphatic word or two (e.g. "Knock it off") seems appropriate. NE Ent 19:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • While I'm not particularly troubled by the lack of logging (admins occasionally forget to do that, especially when they're not really familiar with DS and the attendant body of bureaucratic rules, and anyone can log the restriction in their stead), no sanction may be validly imposed if the editor has not been warned or isn't otherwise aware of the fact that DS have been authorised for the area of conflict and it's up to the person asking for the imposition of DS or for the admins actually imposing them to prove that the person was indeed warned or was otherwise aware. Failure to do so should lead to the lifting of the sanction and the bollocking of the admin responsible.

    While there is a place for IAR in dealing with discretionary sanctions(*), to bypass the need for a warning is not it.

    (*)An example being my comment here, in spite of your lack of standing to file this request, since the sanctioned editor has not appealed his restriction. Salvio Let's talk about it! 11:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply

  • Concur with Salvio. Absent the mandatory pre-block alert, it's an out of process block. I'd like to hear from Coffee please on this.   Roger Davies talk 13:38, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply
    • I just went to turn this into an ordinary admin block but there's no specific misconduct to point to, either in the block log or the talk page notice so that's that option unavailable. (Unless someone wants to reblock of their own volition with a brand new rationale.) The best route forward now is to alert the editor to DS and overturn the block altogether. Thoughts?   Roger Davies talk 12:54, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  • It appears that Coffee won't be around until Tuesday, although his comments on his talk page and at AE are clearly relevant. He's stated that the talk page of one of the relevant articles mentions the sanction. But I agree it's an out of process block, although I see no reason to think it wasn't done in good faith. I don't think it's up to us to lift the block, particularly as the editor hasn't appealed. Dougweller ( talk) 14:11, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply
RGloucester, there's no rush. Nothing dreadful is going to happen if we wait for Coffee to reply. As for unblocking, again, the editor hasn't appealed. Providing everyone agrees it's within our remit, I agree we can convert it into an ordinary Admin block and let the community handle anything else. Dougweller ( talk) 09:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  • I also can't see where the editor has edited a talk page, and only one of the several articles edited recently, Talk:2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine, has the sanctions notice, and the article itself has no edit summary. So it's not at all clear how the editor would have known about any sanctions. Dougweller ( talk)
  • Fairly clear this is not a valid AE block for a couple reasons. I think we should convert it to a usual admin block, and then toss it back to usual community processes. Courcelles 18:33, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  • I'm in full agreement with Courcelles. Thryduulf ( talk) 13:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Motion (Eastern Europe)

For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.

On 11 February 2015, Coffee ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) blocked an editor relying on the discretionary sanctions provisions for Eastern Europe. As a discretionary sanctions block it was out of process as the editor had not been pre-notified of discretionary sanctions for the topic. Accordingly, the prohibitions on modification do not apply and the block may be modified by any uninvolved administrator. Coffee is advised to better familiarize themselves with the discretionary sanctions provisions before using this process again.

Enacted - -- L235 ( t / c / ping in reply) 00:40, 19 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Support:
  1. On passing, this text can be copied to User:Russian editor 1996's talk page, under the block notice as well as to Coffee's talk.   Roger Davies talk 16:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  2. Dougweller ( talk) 16:20, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  3. Thryduulf ( talk) 16:35, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  4. Courcelles 16:40, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  5. -- Guerillero | My Talk 17:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  6. Salvio Let's talk about it! 21:02, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  7. Works for me. I don't feel like an admonishment would be necessary. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  8. Simple mistake. Let's move on. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 22:29, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  9. NativeForeigner Talk 03:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  10. AGK [•] 11:14, 18 February 2015 (UTC) reply
Oppose:
Abstain:
Comments:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Amendment request: Eastern Europe (September 2017)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Aquillion at 06:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe#Log_of_article-level_discretionary_sanctions
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Information about amendment request

Statement by Aquillion

Mass killings under Communist regimes has been fully-protected for the past six years following an WP:AE request here. Putting aside the fact that full protection for content disputes is intended for a "cooling down" period and that indefinite full protection is not, I think, actually an available option for dealing with content disputes, most of the comments there (where there was relatively little discussion for such a drastic step) seem to support full protection for the period of one year - it has now been six. Nearly everyone involved in the dispute has long ago moved on, and while it's reasonable to assume that the topic and article will still be controversial, our dispute-resolution mechanisms have improved dramatically since 2011 - it seems silly to suggest that this article, alone, is so controversial that it needs to remain fully protected until the end of time. Anyway, I'm requesting that the restrictions on this article, including full protection, be removed. -- Aquillion ( talk) 06:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Oh, as an additional (and possibly more important) point, I would suggest looking at Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Page_restrictions and placing some sort of limit on the length a page can be full-protected under WP:AE without explicit authorization from ArbCom - while an admin's authority in executing WP:AE is necessarily broad, I don't believe that protecting a page for six years as a means of resolving a content dispute was intended to be something one administrator could decide to do on their own, even there. If it is intended to be an available option, we need to update WP:PP to say so; but I find it hard to believe there would be consensus for that. -- Aquillion ( talk) 06:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

In response to some of the people who argued against this (a position that genuinely startled me; I feel that this article fell through the cracks and that the idea of leaving a page full-protected for six years over a content dispute is genuinely and flatly indefensible), I'll reiterate what I said above. I don't believe that eternal full-protection is or was ever intended to be a method to resolve disputes; requiring constant re-assessment of consensus for every edit on a controversial article, in perpetuity, goes beyond what administrators are chosen for. Obviously it can be used as a temporary method to resolve disruptive disputes, but most of the people involved in the original dispute have long since moved on, and no one, I think, has shown that the dispute is currently ongoing or that removing protection is likely to result in significant disruption (and if it does, the page can always be locked again. And as contentious as this page is, we have since dealt with and resolved far more contentious articles and far more serious arguments without resorting to eternal protection - which part of the reason why I found the six-year-long protection on this article so startling. Why this page and not Donald Trump, or Climate Change, or Black Lives Matter or Gamergate Controversy or Falun Gong or Israel and its numerous sub-pages? If we have managed to resolve disputes on those pages without resorting to such a drastic measure, why do people think we can't do it here? Yes, the freely-editable nature of Wikipedia can sometimes be a pain to deal with, but I don't feel that permanently forcing all edits to go through administrator consensus-assessment is a viable answer to disputes.
The arguments some people are making below seems to be that first, eternal full protection is not burdensome, and second, that this topic is so inherently contentious that the page must remain locked forever. For those who argue that indefinite full protection is not burdensome because edits can be done via edit-requests, I strongly disagree - protection by its nature discourages new and casual users (who are unlikely to understand or be able to navigate to a draft or to know how the edit-protection system works), slows editing to a crawl for even relatively uncontroversial edits, wastes the time and energy of administrators, and generally discourages people from focusing on the protected page. And looking at the page's history, I feel it shows the damage full protection has done - the history here does not reflect the amount of improvement you would expect a page on a high-profile topic to show over the course of six years. For these reasons and more, full protection is an extreme and draconian measure taken only to shut down ongoing disruption; I don't feel that anyone can credibly argue that there is any ongoing disruption facing this page six years on. Some content disputes, yes, but well below the level that would require even the most basic steps in dispute resolution. "Some people are making bad deletion arguments" isn't the kind of thing that calls for indefinite application of one of the most draconian measures ArbCom has in its toolkit. - Aquillion ( talk) 19:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vanamonde

I was briefly involved on that page post-protection, and I found that trying to build talk page consensus without the ability to edit the article was enormously difficult even for a minor point. The page does not meet our current standards for neutrality and due weight. There are good sources on the topic, that need to be accurately represented, rather than the hotchpotch that exists at the moment; but there is no realistic way to fix this. It's been long enough that I think Arbcom should consider lifting the protection. If the very idea is making some people go "Oh, heck no" then keep some restrictions to prevent the previous problems from recurring; a 1RR restriction + EC protection should do the trick. Vanamonde ( talk) 07:16, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

@ Iridescent: How is the difficulty of obtaining consensus a sign that anything is working? Few to none of the participants in that discussion were from the bad old days; they were newer folks, like myself, seeking to improve a page. We have no evidence, really, that the folks who disrupted the page the previous time will do so again; we have evidence that there are people who wish to make constructive edits who are being hindered by the protection. Continuing the protection can almost be read as "the page as it stands is better than any version likely to occur after unprotection"; and ARBCOM is supposed to confine itself to behavior, is it not? As I said above, we could easily place restrictions to prevent edit warring; or even, as Iridescent suggests, place the page on probation, so to speak, and reprotect it if needed. Vanamonde ( talk) 12:57, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply
@ Iridescent: Yes, the current restriction does a good job of preventing editors who want the page, if it exists at all, to read "mass killings under communism are a hoax perpetrated by capitalist regimes to undermine the fatherland" or some such crap. Such folks will never reach any consensus under the current system, and that's a good thing. BUT there are others (such as myself) who believe that (for instance) if a source has been disputed by others of similar weight, then Wikipedia should present the debate, rather than one of the sources in WIkipedia's voice. I raised these concerns with respect to a single lead paragraph on the talk page; it took me about 40 talk page posts, over the course of a month, to get that edit through. Long enough that I abandoned my efforts on that page, and began editing in places where the effort:outcome ratio was more acceptable. Editor time and effort is our most precious resource. We need a more efficient way to improve the page, unless there is evidence that that will lead to previous disruption continuing. Do we have such evidence? Most of the protagonists of that previous case are no longer active. Others have topic-related restrictions. Is there evidence of disruptive posting on the talk? Only by newbies, who can be dealt with through EC protection. Is there evidence of socking on related pages? Not that I am aware of; but nonetheless preventable through EC protection. Edit-warring can be dealt with through 1RR. Draconian measures may once have been necessary; I see no evidence that they are any longer. Vanamonde ( talk) 11:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Nug

Keep the status quo. Looking at the page history [56], the current mechanism appears to be working, the article is being improved. If Vanamonde finds it difficult to build talk page consensus under the current mechanism, then it certainly won't get easier to build consensus if the restrictions are removed. -- Nug ( talk) 08:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Iridescent

I'm uninvolved but wearily familiar with the Digwuren case, and would argue squarely in favor of keeping the status quo; if anything, this enforced take-it-to-the-talk-page is a remedy Wikipedia should be using more often, not less. If trying to build talk page consensus without the ability to edit the article was enormously difficult, that's a sign that the remedy is working. If the protection is lifted, it needs to be on the understanding that the moment the usual suspects on both sides re-start edit-warring, either the protection will be re-imposed or that edit-warring will be dealt with by means of long-term blocks. ‑  Iridescent 08:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

@ Vanamonde93: The issue with this page (and others targeted by the EEML) is the presence of numerous editors on both sides who are certain that the status quo is so egregiously wrong that they feel duty bound to change it; if people have convincing evidence that the status quo version of the page is Just Plain Wrong they should have no problem persuading other editors of this; if they can't persuade other editors of this it's a likely sign that the problem they intend to fix isn't as problematic as they think. This is one of the pages that triggered the most important sentence of WP:DIGWUREN (and arguably the most significant ruling in Arbcom's history with regards to the limit of AGF and the interaction of content disputes and user conduct issues), "In cases where all reasonable attempts to control the spread of disruption arising from long-term disputes have failed, the Committee may be forced to adopt seemingly draconian measures as a last resort for preventing further damage to the encyclopedia", and there's a reason this group of pages were the battleground on which that particular decisive battle for the future course of Wikipedia's governance was fought. Bluntly, if the editors can't get on with each other enough to cobble together consensus for changes, we don't want them editing these pages. ‑  Iridescent 15:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply
@ RhinoMind You mean, like the enormous FAQ section at the top of the talk page that explains in details what the issues are, why the page is protected, and that edits to that article need to be discussed on the talk page, or the massive pink-and-red box that pops up when you try to edit the page explaining the process one needs to go through to agree proposed changes? I'm not sure how much clearer we could make this. ‑  Iridescent 17:44, 27 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Thryduulf

I don't have an opinion about the specific page mentioned, but I do want to comment on the suggestion to "look at [...] placing some sort of limit on the length a page can be full-protected under WP:AE without explicit authorization from ArbCom".

AE blocks are limited in duration to 1 year, but occasionally situation warranting an indefinite block crop up at AE. Wheat happens in these cases is that an indefinite block is placed, but the restrictions on modifying an AE action last only for one year, meaning a single admin may unblock on their own countenance after that point. If there is a problem with long protections resulting from an AE action that are not being reduced or removed due to bureaucracy despite their being a rough consensus that protection is no longer required, then a similar 1-year limit to AE protections would seem to be the simplest resolution. I do not know whether this is actually a problem, I have not looked, but the comments above this one suggest that if the problem does exist this article is not an example of it. Thryduulf ( talk) 14:05, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

  • @ RhinoMind and Iridescent: only administrators get an edit button on full-protected pages. The "big pink box" is visible to non-administrators by clicking the "view source" button - but that is not likely to be intuitive. The box probably needs to be updated though - "Editors who violate this editing restriction may be sanctioned with escalating blocks or other discretionary sanctions per WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions." links to the original remedy superceded by standard discretionary sanctions in October 2011 and the case renamed in 2012. The current remedy is just an authorisation and contains no details, unlike the old one, the details being at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This is a matter for the article talk page though, where I will post shortly. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:48, 28 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Collect

Keep the status quo. The article used to be a regular battleground, and the fact is that "competing articles" of worse quality were the result of the compromises made. The concept that the prior discussions are now invalid is, I fear, quite the wrong way to go. Also note that some of the prior battlers are now looking here to find a means of deleting this article while not deleting Anti-communist mass killings and other articles which are far weaker than this one. A clear case where SQA is the best result. And allowing the editors who propose on the talk page that we simply delete the article without revisiting the prior discussions here would basically make a mockery of the past solution. Note that both "quick order deletion discussions" in 2010 resulted in clear Keep results. Collect ( talk) 14:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by RhinoMind

Lockings are of course undesirable, but I do not feel experienced enough with this procedure to have any meaningful opinion on how it should be administered. But ...

  • I suggest that Full protections/lockings are accompanied by a tag on the article-front (not TalkPage) that explains that there is some kind of dispute. Otherwise lockings would just enforce acceptance of articles that aren't acceptable and readers would assume that everything is ok, which isn't true.
  • Also, I suggest that some information on the TalkPage is included, so editors are informed on how to engage with the article during a locking. ie. they present concrete proposals for editorial changes on the TalkPage, complete with proper reliable sources and all, and after a discussion a consensus (of reason and argumentation, not feeling!) might be reached with time. If so, administrators can then install the editorial changes in the locked article. RhinoMind ( talk) 12:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC) reply
@ Iridescent: No. That is the short answer. You are not considering my #1 entry. The links you posted might perhaps do it in relation to my #2, although I don't understand how you got to your link number two where the edit-procedure is loosely explained. For me there isn't any Edit-button to click in the first place. RhinoMind ( talk) 21:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by AmateurEditor

I support removal of full protection, but then I opposed it being imposed at the time. I also support replacing it with Extended confirmed protection and 1RR for now, as suggested by Vanamonde93. I disagree with Aquillion that the disruptive editors have moved on to other things (some of them have just changed their usernames), but I don't see that as a reason to retain full protection. Full protection of the article may actually be shielding them from consequences by freeing them from having to disrupt progress on the article via reverts and edits to the article. Allowing editing may help expose those editors by giving them enough rope to hang themselves. Alternatively, it would allow them to edit productively if they chose to do so. If anything, the full protection has given disruptive editors effective veto power through the imposed edit-consensus process and some of the good-faith editors have moved on. AmateurEditor ( talk) 01:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by EdJohnston

I'm one of the admins who was active at AE back in 2011 when the decision was taken to apply indefinite protection to Mass killings under Communist regimes. The filer of this ARCA, User:Aquillion, has not stated that they tried any other of the prior steps suggested under WP:AC/DS#Appeals and modifications before filing here:

  • ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision or
  • request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN")

The administrator who closed the AE and applied the full protection is User:Timotheus Canens has been recently active, and should be easy to consult. The concept that it is shocking to keep an article protected this long probably reflects unawareness of the nastiness of some of the areas that are still under discretionary sanctions. In my opinion the Mass killings article easily falls under the 'gigantic waste of time for everyone' category though some well-intentioned content editors who were very diplomatic might be able to rescue it. In part the trouble is that some people consider this an artificial topic. We have other articles on mass deaths whose existence as an article is not questioned. For example, the article on World War II casualties is about a real topic and few people would criticize the title.

In terms of actual improvements carried out during the full protection, the history indicates there were at least 23 changes made (by admins) since 1 January 2013 in response to edit requests. For another opinion on what to do (if anything), see User talk:TheTimesAreAChanging#Mass killings under Communist regimes. TTAAC is one of the people who made content improvements to a draft that was kept open during the protection.

My opinion is that this article is hard to improve, not due to full protection, but due to the difficulty in finding agreement among editors. Lifting the protection would fix one problem but not the other. Instead of stasis and very slow progress, we might have constant thrashing at ANI and AE and some article bans being handed out to individuals. But then again I could be wrong. EdJohnston ( talk) 19:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC) EdJohnston ( talk) 19:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by T. Canens

The protection was placed following the AE thread Ed linked to because it was necessary to enforce the "consensus required" restriction previously placed on the page (by Sandstein). I see that some commenters seem to think - incorrectly - that the two are one and the same.

I don't have time to review the past several years' worth of history right now, so I express no view on whether Sandstein's restriction is still needed. However, as long as that restriction remains, I'm strongly opposed to lifting the full protection, which adds only minimal inconvenience over the restriction, and, based on previous experience, is essential to its consistent enforcement. T. Canens ( talk) 04:35, 30 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Sandstein

I was the admin who some years back added a "consensus required" page restriction as a discretionary sanction to this article. I've not followed the article for a long time and I don't know whether the restriction is still required. I don't mind another admin or the ArbCom modifying or removing the restriction as they deem appropriate. I likewise don't have an opinion as to whether the page protection at issue here is (still) appropriate. In general terms, I find it preferable to sanction individual edit-warriors rather than to lock down a page for everybody, but I must assume that the editing conditions were at some time bad enough that T. Canens and I considered it necessary to impose page-level restrictions.  Sandstein  12:24, 30 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by SMcCandlish

"Shine a light, and the roaches will run." Support removing the full protection and replacing it with extended confirmed protection and 1RR. Even one year is over-long for full protection. The solution to bad apples mucking up a page is to fish out the bad apples, not to make the page mostly unusable. It's already under DS, so dealing with long-term problematic editors in the topic will be comparatively easy and swift. The problem of the article being effectively frozen in a poor state and very difficult to improve is real. To the extent the topic may be artificial, that's a content matter and not an ArbCom issue. It is fixable by splitting (e.g. mass killings by the Soviet Union, by the PRC, etc., are certainly valid topics, since they proceeded from specific governments' policies, without any WP:SYNTH in play). No opinion on the bureaucracy questions about AE limits, auto-expirations, etc.  —  SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:26, 4 September 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • My first reaction to this request was that it shouldn't be necessary for any page on a wiki to be full-protected for more than six years. My second reaction, after reviewing the comments above and skimming the page history, is that this particular page may indeed be exceptional in which case we would presume that the AE admins are acting sensibly. It might be useful to have some input from other admins who have been active on the topic-area in general and this page in particular. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 16:01, 28 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • I had a pretty similar reaction to NYB. At first I figured I would definitely be supporting removing full protection from a page after multiple years. After reading some responses here, and seeing that the talk page of the article is fairly active and collaborative, it might actually be an exceptional case where this is a net benefit. I'd like to hear some more thoughts, but if we do try reducing the restriction on that page, I'd like to see it come with a condition where protection can easily be reapplied if the removal doesn't work. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:51, 1 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • My thought process for AE appeals which arrive at the Committee is pretty straight-forward. We (ArbCom) are at the end of the appeals process for AE sanctions, similar to case requests. Therefore, my considerations are twofold: (a) where processes followed in the application of the sanction and in any subsequent appeals and (b) was the sanction imposed a reasonable exercise of administrative discretion. In this instance the answer to both questions is yes, so I !vote to decline this appeal request and recommend it that be taken to the admin who originally imposed the sanction or to WP:AE.

    On the topic of having a limit to the amount of time page protections (and other sanctions on pages) can be placed I'm not convinced that's a good way forward. Firstly, blocks are more contentious and have a great affect on people than other sanctions and are, generally, more difficult to lift. Secondly, administrators aren't authorised to impose some page sanctions (such as, 1RR and 'consensus required') allowed by discretionary sanctions so having them expire after a year would mean that they expire (not that it changes to allow any admin to remove them). I'd also imagine that the imposing admin, AE admins and editors at AN would be very willing to amend/lift page restrictions which have been in place for long periods of time (especially when compared to blocks). Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 10:52, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply

  • I also decline with the same concerns as my colleagues above. I agree with Callanecc that a time limit after which page protections expire is not generally a good idea and for the same reasons. Doug Weller talk 11:38, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Decline The original admins who implemented the full protection and consensus required restrictions have given statements. The point of discretionary sanctions is to provide the community with the tools to handle some of our most serious and controversial areas of editing. The full protection should be removed via discussion at WP:AE, rather than ArbCom stepping in. The actual protection was not implemented by the case, rather the implementation of discretionary sanctions. Specifically on that point, there's nothing for us to clarify or amend. Mkdw talk 21:02, 5 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Decline , with the same general view as Callanecc about time length limits for protection. Some pages are going to be problems for longer periods than one year, and this is one of them. DGG ( talk ) 18:22, 12 September 2017 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification request: Eastern Europe and Balkans discretionary sanctions scope (February 2019)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by RGloucester at 16:07, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe
Macedonia

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by RGloucester

This is a matter of housekeeping, and I hope that the honourable members of the Arbitration Committee can assist me by providing some clarification. Recently, I filed a request for arbitration enforcement relating to the article " Origin of the Romanians". In making preparations to file that request, I came across the strange situation whereby I knew discretionary sanctions applied to the relevant article, but I was not sure which of the two related and existing discretionary regimes was most appropriate to use. I expect that's somewhat confusing, so let me explain a bit further.

There are discretionary sanctions regimes in place for articles related to Eastern Europe, and for the Balkans. Unfortunately, the definitions of both ' Eastern Europe' and 'the Balkans' are ambiguous and potentially overlapping. This produced a strange result whereby the relevant editor had originally been notified of the Eastern Europe regime, but was later notified of the Balkans regime in relation to his edits of the same article. In any case, this ambiguity is really not desirable for discretionary sanctions. The definition of 'Eastern Europe' specifically has actually been a matter of substantial dispute on Wikipedia before. One can easily imagine a situation whereby one could 'wikilawyer' about the validity of a notification of the existence of one of the regimes, in an effort to avoid sanctions. I wonder if the the Arbitration Committee can do one of two things: either clearly define the scope of each regime, or merge the two. This way, administrators enforcing sanctions and editors seeking their enforcement will not have to grapple with the ambiguities inherent in the terms 'Eastern Europe' and 'the Balkans', and will be able to avoid a bureaucratic nightmare. Thank you in advance for your consideration of this matter.

@ AGK: In response to your question, I endorse the analysis by Thryduulf. RGloucester — ☎ 20:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
@ Power~enwiki: Romania is considered part of the Balkans and Eastern Europe in most definitions of both terms. The use of "broadly construed" means that there is no doubt that Romanian-related topics are presently under sanctions. RGloucester — ☎ 20:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
@ EdJohnston: I respect your judgement. Here's the problem I foresee. In the specific case of Iovaniorgovan, he was notified of ARBEE sanctions almost as soon as he started editing here. When his participation in the debate at Origin of the Romanians became increasingly problematic, an administrator DeltaQuad ( talk · contribs) notified him of the Balkans sanctions, seemingly unaware of the previous alert, or otherwise disagreeing with the scope of the alert applied, therefore delaying the enactment of sanctions on Iovaniorgovan, and causing other long-term editors to be swept up in his messes. In addition, we now have a strange situation where the page-level restriction that was applied at Origin of the Romanians was logged under the Balkans case log, but the topic bans on Iovaniorgovan and Cealicuca are logged under ARBEE. It's simply a bureaucratic mess, and it should be cleaned up. No one should have to roll the dice to decide which of these regimes to apply in a given case, and logging should make coherent sense, not be scattered all over the place. These sorts of messes make it harder for editors understand DS, and indeed, harder for them to participate in DS areas, for fear of falling into a Kafka-esque trap. We owe it to our editors to have a rationalised system of enforcement. That's why I'm asking for clarification. RGloucester — ☎ 22:25, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
As a further example for Mr Johnston, here is a hypothetical. Let's say that someone was editing a Romania-related article, like Origin of the Romanians, and received an ARBEE alert. They then go on to make substantial and problematic edits to articles about the Yugoslav Wars. Would that ARBEE alert still be valid, or would a new Balkans alert be required? These sorts of grey areas...are really not desirable in a DS regime. RGloucester — ☎ 00:14, 24 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • I'd like to thank the honourable members of the Arbitration Committee for taking up this matter. In response to Future Perfect at Sunrise, whom I greatly respect as an administrator, I'd like to say that your approach is indeed the best one. However, because the nature of the DS scopes implemented by the cases does not align with the specific disputes that brought on the cases, such a methodology is difficult to implement in practice. In as much as the scope of the sanctions is not "conflicts that – directly or indirectly – stem from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the mix of nationalities that was left behind", but "anything related to the Balkans, broadly construed", &c., grey areas quickly become apparent. I presume that the intent behind the broader scope of the sanctions, relative to the locus of the disputes that brought about the cases, was that the disputes that occurred provided evidence to suggest further disputes in the broader topic area were likely, and that it would be best to implement broader sanctions as a preventative measure. Whether that was a correct course of action is not for me to decide, but I will say that, in particular, the existence of the ARBEE sanctions was of a great help in controlling the outbreaks of disruptive editing that occurred at the time of the Ukrainian crisis of 2014...despite the original case not having had anything to do with that topic. In any case, I would advise the Committee to be more careful in its crafting of DS scopes in future, making clear whether it intends to limit such scopes to the locus of the dispute that occurred, or apply sanctions to a broader topic area as a preventative measure. RGloucester — ☎ 18:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • @ AGK: I understand what your motion is trying to do, but I think you need to clarify the logging procedure. Will the logs be unified, or kept separate? RGloucester — ☎ 17:51, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply
@ AGK: I find your proposed change more undesirable than even the present mess, in line with what was said by Mr Rob. As for why, it will do nothing to solve the problem about when to apply each regime, will do nothing to sort out the scattered logging procedures that I described above, and will in fact only make this whole business MORE confusing. The goal of a merger was to eliminate questions about which regime to apply in areas of geographical overlap, like Romania, as demonstrated by Thryduulf below, and also to centralise logging so as to avoid the situation of having multiple sanctions related to one particular article logged under different regimes. Your proposal will leave parallel bureaucracies in place, seemingly for no purpose, and leave behind a mess for others to sort through. The idea that updating templates, &c., is too much work is very sad. ArbCom established sanctions, and has a responsibility to the community to maintain those sanctions in a rational way. If you need my help cleaning up templates, I can offer it, as I have experience in that area. In any case, I support Mr Rob's motion as the most sensible approach. The other alternative I can forsee would be to clarify the scopes of the two cases to make them easier to differentiate, but the merger seems to have more support, and is easier to implement. RGloucester — ☎ 16:45, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by power~enwiki

I recommend the committee make a motion of clarification here. The articles on Eastern Europe and Balkans are both unclear to whether Romania is part of the region. Neither of the disputes leading to discretionary sanctions particularly apply to Romania; the Balkans dispute primarily involved Bulgaria, Greece and the former Yugoslavia. The Eastern Europe dispute primarily involved Poland, Russia, and the Baltic States; the more recent crisis in the Ukraine has also fallen under those sanctions.

I'm not certain that Romania falls under any Discretionary Sanctions at this time. An explicit list of countries affected (rather than a region name) may be necessary. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 19:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Thryduulf (re: Eastern Europe/The Balkans)

Looking at our articles about Eastern Europe and the Balkans, there is indeed overlap between them. Taking a reasonably (but not excessively) broad interpretation some or all of the following countries are included (sometimes depending on context):

Country Eastern Europe Balkans
Albania Yes Yes
Belarus Yes No
Bosnia and Herzegovina Yes1 Yes
Bulgaria Yes Yes2
Croatia Yes Yes3
Czechia Yes4 No
East Germany Yes5 No
Estonia Yes6 No
Greece Yes1, 7 Yes8
Hungary Yes4 No
Kosovo Yes1 Yes
Latvia Yes6 No
Lithuania Yes6 No
Macedonia Yes1 Yes
Moldova Yes No9
Montenegro Yes1 Yes
Poland Yes No
Romania Yes Yes3
Russia Yes10 No
Serbia Yes1 Yes
Slovakia Yes4 No
Slovenia Yes Yes3
Turkey No Yes2, 10
Ukraine Yes No

Notes:

  1. Geographically (sometimes) South Eastern Europe if this is distinguished
  2. Usually only in geographical contexts
  3. Only in (some) political contexts
  4. Geographically usually Central Europe when this is distinguished, Eastern Europe when it isn't
  5. Prior to reunification only
  6. Only in Soviet/Cold War contexts
  7. Only in religious contexts
  8. Only the mainland in geographic contexts; included in only a few political contexts (most notably Macedonia naming dispute)
  9. Very occasionally included in political contexts, but should not be for discretionary sanctions purposes
  10. Only the European part

Based on this, Eastern Europe (when South Eastern Europe is not distinguished separately) is a near complete superset of the Balkans, so merging these into a single authorisation of "Eastern Europe including the Balkans and the Macedonia naming dispute." would resolve all the issues the OP raises. No actual restrictions would be altered, only the case they are logged under would change. Possibly those who are formally aware of only one scope would need to be informed they are now formally aware of the newly combined scope, but not definitely and this would only be a one-time thing. Thryduulf ( talk) 20:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply

  • I agree completely with RGloucester - either the scope of both restrictions should be clarified so there is no overlap, or the restrictions should be merged into one (and Rob's proposal is a sensible way to achieve this). AGK's proposal is the worst of both worlds as it increases the bureaucracy and makes the confusion worse: at present there is no ambiguity that sanctions related to Poland should be logged under the EE case, if this proposal were to pass then there would be as sanctions could be placed under either or both cases; all the while it would not resolve the existing ambiguity over issues related to e.g. Romania. Thryduulf ( talk) 17:06, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by EdJohnston

Agree with the views of User:AGK. There is little upside to modifying the existing sanctions, and a possible downside. Even the present request doesn't give a persuasive reason why a change is required. In the recent AE about Origin of the Romanians nobody made the argument that the topic wasn't covered under WP:ARBEE. Even if ARBEE and ARBMAC do overlap, it's hard to see that as a problem.

Many of the existing DS are about nationalism. In the ideal case, we would have some kind of universal sanction that could be applied to nationalist editing anywhere in the world. EdJohnston ( talk) 21:15, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Fut.Perf

Speaking as somebody who has helped enforcing both sets of sanctions numerous times, I think there's rarely be much of a problem in determining which rule to apply, even if they overlap. For me, the crux of the matter is really not a mechanistic application of what country counts as belonging to what continental region. Those are pretty arbitrary attributions, and to take just one example, you will rarely find Greece described as belonging to "Eastern Europe", even though obviously its geographical longitude is well within the range of other countries that are. What matters is really more the nature of the underlying political struggles motivating the disruption we find on Wikipedia. Speaking broadly, "Eastern Europe" sanctions have mostly been invoked dealing with ethnic/national conflicts that broke up – directly or indirectly – in the wake of WWII, the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, or the collapse of the Soviet Union. The "Balkans" sanctions have been invoked dealing with conflicts that – directly or indirectly – stem from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the mix of nationalities that was left behind. I'd personally be opposed to merging the two sanction rules. It shouldn't really matter in practice, if it wasn't for the practice of some admin colleagues (unnecessary and not really advisable, in my view, but still common) to hand out sanctions whose scope is always automatically identical with the entire set of topics covered by the DS regime. For instance, instead of topic-banning somebody from Serbian-Croatian conflicts, which might be entirely sufficient in an individual case, they always automatically reach for a topic ban from all Balkan topics, because that's what the DS rule applies to. I'd find it regrettable if these colleagues were to take a merger of the two DS rules as indicating that in the future all such sanctions should be handed out straight for "all of Eastern and Southeastern Europe", which would almost certainly be overreaching in most cases. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe and Balkans discretionary sanctions scope: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe and Balkans discretionary sanctions scope: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • On an initial review, discretionary sanctions in Macedonia pertain to the Balkans region, which is the Southeastern Europe peninsula. Treating the Balkans as part of Eastern Europe seems to be a stretch. Are you sure that the two overlap? The article seems to be a bad test case: it relates to the distant origin of a people, which involves by its nature a broad range of geography. While awaiting comment, I'll say generally that I need to be convinced of good reason for changing any discretionary sanctions remedy. The changes can themselves cause short-term dispute and confusion, and defaulting to no change is a sensible practice. AGK  ■ 17:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Special thanks indeed to Thryduulf for sharing a useful, methodical assessment of the area. To move us towards a conclusion (one way or the other), I will draft a motion shortly. AGK  ■ 11:06, 6 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Re. logging and RGloucester: I have proposed amending each case separately, without a disruptive "merger". In practice enforcement requests are always made in the context of a single arbitration remedy – ignoring all others – and so having two with the same scope will have no effect. At the same time, it avoids the need to update a bunch of notices, insist that existing sanctions are still in effect, and change how daily enforcement is carried out. AGK  ■ 18:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Per Thryduulf's assessment, merging the two DS areas into something like "Eastern and Southeastern Europe" sounds like it would make enforcement a bit easier. But that does highlight their extremely broad scope: the history, society, geography, etc. of half a continent. Both motions seem to have been based on the actions of a handful of editors and the Balkans case is now over a decade old. Perhaps it's time to consider rescinding or refining these. –  Joe ( talk) 21:03, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Merging the two makes sense to me as it doesn't increase the scope of the two DS simply puts them together for convenience and clarity. And it would be helpful to include a list of the countries involved. I am comfortable leaving the DS in place as it does not restrict editing, but is there to be used in case of future problems, and there may well be future problems. SilkTork ( talk) 09:55, 24 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • I think merging the two as SilkTork said would make sense for clarity sake. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 13:02, 6 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Thank you Thryduulf for your extremely useful table. GorillaWarfare  (talk) 20:09, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
    • Yes, thank you. I want to note that it was extremely helpful in parsing this situation. ~ Rob13 Talk 04:24, 13 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Motions: Eastern Europe and Balkans scope

Proposals withdrawn in favour of (3). AGK  ■ 20:21, 16 February 2019 (UTC) reply

(1) Proposed:

At Amendment II in Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans.

Support
  1. Proposed. I take Fut.Perf's point, but this topic has been trying for the Wikipedia community. On balance, I am content with drawing the lines slightly more broadly than may be required in every case. AGK  ■ 10:30, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Oppose
  1. ~ Rob13 Talk 17:16, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  2. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 14:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  3. Prefer option 3. GorillaWarfare  (talk) 20:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Abstain
Comments
  • Appeals or sanctions under the EE case should continue to be logged as Eastern Europe. The scope of other cases or authorised discretionary sanctions has no effect. AGK  ■ 18:09, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply

(2) Proposed:

At Remedy 3 in Macedonia, the Balkans is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans.

Support
  1. Proposed. AGK  ■ 10:30, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Oppose
  1. ~ Rob13 Talk 17:16, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  2. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 14:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  3. Prefer option 3. GorillaWarfare  (talk) 20:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Abstain
Comments
  • And here, appeals or sanctions under the EE case should continue to be logged as Macedonia. The scope of other cases or authorised discretionary sanctions has no effect. AGK  ■ 18:09, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply

(3) Proposed:

At Amendment II in Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans. Remedy 3 in Macedonia is superseded by this amendment.

For these motions there are 9 active arbitrators. 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Majority reference
Abstentions Support votes needed for majority
0–1 5
2–3 4
4–5 3
Enacted: Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:05, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Support
  1. ~ Rob13 Talk 17:16, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  2. This seems like the neater solution. –  Joe ( talk) 13:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  3. This overall seems to be the way to go. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 14:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  4. I prefer this. It's a bit more effort to deal with the existing notices, but should make things simpler going forward. GorillaWarfare  (talk) 20:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  5. I explained in the arb discussion section why this is undesirable. AGK  ■ 07:34, 10 February 2019 (UTC) Switched from oppose. Reconsidered based on community comment about the difficulty that might be caused by two remedies covering the same area. AGK  ■ 19:53, 16 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Oppose
Abstain
Comments
  • Proposing as an alternative to 1/2 without comment on whether we should do this at all, to avoid the odd situation of authorizing the exact same discretionary sanctions in two different cases. That just seems like a mess waiting to be cleaned up when some future Committee changes the sanctions in one place but forgets about the other. I hope to be able to look at this situation and actually support or oppose in the near future rather than maintaining my current inactivity on the matter. ~ Rob13 Talk 04:17, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
    • I've placed my votes after a review of the situation. This seems to be an improvement to me, reducing the overlap while not "losing" anything. Whether the DS should be removed entirely seems to be a separate question, and one best answered after we know how these DS operate when enacted in a less confusing manner. As a point of clarification on awareness, note that editors who were "aware" of the Balkans discretionary sanctions will need to be made aware of the Eastern Europe and Balkans sanctions before they can be subject to DS. This is a small hiccup, but it actually is rather sensible, since Eastern Europe and the Balkans is a superset of the Balkans. I consider it a happy accident that this merger would likely result in editors being made aware of the sanctions active in the broader topic area they're editing. ~ Rob13 Talk 17:22, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Amendment request: Eastern Europe (May 2019)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Icewhiz at 10:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Amendments
  2. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Amendments
  3. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Amendments
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request



Information about amendment request
  • sourcing restriction for non-English sources for Jew-Polish relations.
  • 500/30 protection for Jew-Polish relations.
  • 1RR for Jew-Polish relations.

Statement by Icewhiz

In the past year, editing in the topic of Jewish history in Poland has been difficult. While WP:NOENG is policy - stating a preference for English sources of the same quality when available (generally the case for Holocaust history), and quotation requirements when challenged - NOENG has not been followed in this topic area. Non-English sources of a dubious nature have been inserted into articles, even BLPs, and in some cases, the content has failed verification: not present in the cited sources, contradicted by others. Requests for quotations and a rationale for use have gone unanswered, or dismissed with "the source is reliable" or "WP:AGF and Offline sources".

Admins at AE are reluctant to dive into such issues. This recent case was closed by @ Sandstein: with: "Personally, the matter is too complicated and too much tied to content disputes for me to feel comfortable taking action; AE is better suited to relatively straightforward cases of misconduct." [57]. I understand the sentiment here; dealing with users introducing content that fails WP:V when the cited sources aren't online, aren't in English, and/or are very long is difficult. The challenge of tackling source misrepresentations is evident in past AE threads:

List of prior AE actions
  1. GizzyCatBella 26 April 2018 - 1RR violation of page level restriction + claims of fringe sources. Result (purely on the 1RR claim) - "GizzyCatBella blocked 72 hours".
  2. E-960, 8 May 2018 - Complaint alleged violation of 1RR article restriction, coupled with BLP and RS concerns. Closed with a voluntary 72 hour restriction. Note admin discussion on non-English sources without translations.
  3. Icewhiz 9 May 2018 - Complaint alleged removal of Chodakiewicz as a source in a number of articles was inappropriate. Defendant counter-complained about filer's use of WP:SPSes. closed: "Editors directed to WP:RSN to discuss Chodakiewicz....
  4. E-960 12 May 2018 - Complaint alleged violation of 1RR in article with said restriction. Result: "E-960 needs to be more careful when reverting.".
  5. Icewhiz 14 May 2018 - Complaint alleged removal of Anna Poray as a source from over 60 articles was inappropriate as well as alleging Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray was made in bad faith. While admins discuss the misuse of SPS angle, the closing admin remarks "The charge of misusing SPS isn't something I'd act on, because it's close to a content dispute and it's not realistic to expect admins here to check the reliability of this number of sources; that would need an ArbCom case.". Closed due to the reported PAs as "Poeticbent (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from the history of Poland during World War II, including the Holocaust in Poland, for six months.".
  6. François Robere 2 June 2018 - complaint alleged violation of "consensus required provision". Discussion diverged into use of questionable sources. Admins discuss at length possible sourcing restrictions ( WP:MEDRS-like, plus suggestion to limit sources only to English, as "To be clear, I don't think that Polish-language sources are inherently unreliable, but they can't be evaluated by most admins here, including me. That impedes arbitration enforcement insofar as source reliability is concerned.". The AE closes with "More editing restrictions on the article applied.". The following restriction is placed on an article level: diff "Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance." + "Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans.
  7. 24 June 2018 - Filer alleged misrepresentation of sources. In this particular instance this was seen as beyond a "content dispute". Closed as "GizzyCatBella is topic-banned from the World War II history of Poland".
  8. Icewhiz 3 July 2018 - Filer alleged misrepresentation of sources. Respondent files diffs alleging a misrepresentation in other instances. Closed as "no action" since - "It's quite clear that admins here will not examine the details and nuances of the interpretation of sources in what is, to most, a foreign language and a wholly unfamiliar topic. AE is good at dealing with reasonably obvious misconduct, but not so good at dealing with issues that need an advanced degree in history or some other specialized field to resolve..
  9. Volunteer Marek 5 July 2018 - Filer alleged NPA and V issues, accompanied by counter-allegations. Admins discuss possible sourcing restrictions (e.g. academic, English only) to the topic area based on previous article level restriction to Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. NeilN notes - "That clause was a watered down version of Sandstein's suggestion to limit source-evaluation to English-language academic sources only. He correctly noted that most admins here can't read Polish when the issue of source misrepresentation comes up.". The discussion on sourcing leads to no conclusion. Closed with: "Volunteer Marek and Icewhiz are topic-banned from the history of Poland in World War II (1933-45) for three months for treating Wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND".

Most of the complaints were on sourcing quality and misrepresentations of sources, while editors were sanctioned for a variety of conduct issues, such as personal attacks and battleground behavior. Admins discussed the possibility of sourcing restrictions (academic and/or English only), or enforcing misrepresentation of sources. A sourcing restriction was applied to Collaboration in German-occupied Poland where the situation did improve following the restriction, but no sourcing restriction was applied elsewhere. Disputes in the topic area have involved numerous other articles (WWII history, geographic locations, BLPs in the field).

I will note that use of sources is further complicated by the legislation which criminalized publication in Polish media of claims of Polish complicity in crimes committed during the Holocaust. [1] [2] [3]

There are excellent mainstream Polish-language academic sources, referenced by academia outside of Poland. In fact, the Polish Wikipedia often has a balanced representation of the subject matter (see this 2015 oped on a long-running WP:HOAX in Stawiski: "Surprisingly, the Polish Wikipedia articles evidence greater willingness to admit Polish participation in massacres of Jews." corrected in 2018) Unfortunately, sources in Polish introduced to English Wikipedia are often not high-quality mainstream academic writing, but rather right-wing newspaper op-eds, interviews, blog posts, and pulp journals/books.

Please see general examples of misrepresenting sources: (more are available on request)

Diffs of source use failing verification + subsequent reverts / lack of quotations and discussion
  1. Non-EC user added [58] (discussed at AE here, but not subsequent reverts/verification). Challenged as "OR, misrepresentation of sources [59]. Despite the challenge - reverted and reverted by established users. Requests at Talk:History of the Jews in Poland#Recent edits for verifying quotations were not met (over several weeks). I personally accessed many of the cited sources and ascertained the content was not present in the source prior to reverting (a difficult and time-consuming task). The reverting users admitted they did not verify the text - here and here.
  2. diff - removal of Chełmno extermination camp's purpose to exterminate Poles. Sourced to Polish language source - which doesn't contain this claim. This misrepresentation was entered back in 2013. This illustrates how a false citation in non-English can last quite a while.
  3. Editor challenges REDFLAG material in July 2017, rolledback in Feb 2019. Source for "eventually both Poles and Jews were classified as subhuman and targeted for extermination..." is a municipal website in Polish - source which doesn't contain anything of the sort.
  4. challenge of text "systematically exterminated people (primarily Jews and ethnic Poles) they regarded Untermensch.". text returned with a whole bunch of Polish language sources (which do not seem to support the text (they do support persecution of Polish elites - not all Poles). tagged verify source. request on talk 4 March per WP:NOENG for rationale of use of these sources + quotations - no response as of now.

Possibly disruptive edits by non-EC users:

Edit Warring & non-EC edits
  1. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Historyk IPN/Archive - editor from IPN (an organization promoting revisionism in Polish-Jewish relations, [4] that was recently involved in the disruption of an academic conference in Paris [5]) - socking and adding WP:SPAM links to a website promoting "the truth".
  2. Edit warring on BLP - despite clear lack of consensus for inclusion (and even possibly consensus to exclude) - [60] (and a number of threads below), multiple re-insertions of challenged text which is based on interviews/op-eds in right-wing Polish media - [61] [62], [63], [64], [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70] (note the rejection of the Holocaust studies journal (including two pieces by Polish authors) as a source in preference to a right-wing internet portal, a small Polish radio station, Polish League Against Defamation, and biznesistyl.pl), [71], [72], [73], [74], [75].
  3. [76] - adding content sourced to TVNiezaleznaPolonia Canada YouTube channel. Source is an interview in Polish with English subtitles, and the content inserted is a denial (of the generally accepted) Polish role in Jedwabne pogrom.
  4. [77] - IP adds content to Jedwabne claiming this was "instigated by the Soviet-backed Communist security corps" (well after the Red Army retreated in disarray).
  5. [78] [79] [80] - non-EC adds content to two BLPs + 1 institutions based on media coverage of upcoming Gontarczyk column in wSieci (context on wSieci: [6]). Despite challenges by several users, this is re-inserted.
  6. Jan Grabowski (historian) - conspiracy theories (revdelled) at 21:35, 23 February 2019‎, 11:57, 25 February 2019‎ , 12:24, 25 February 2019‎.
  7. There is also long-term (in one article - over a year), slow-pace edit-warring by an IP on a number of articles - @ Ymblanter: and @ Drmies: were involved in Naliboki massacre and Polish Center for Holocaust Research recently (see also User talk:Icewhiz#Polish Center for Holocaust Research).
  8. EW report - 6 reverts in a short time span by an IP in the topic area (removing well sourced information), coupled with 3 reverts in the EW noticeboard. Per TU-nor possibly linked to the 64-bit IP described above, which seems plausible.

References

  1. ^ Poland Holocaust law: France criticises 'ill advised' text, BBC, 7 Feb 2018
  2. ^ Gebert, Konstanty. "Projecting Poland and its past: Poland wants you to talk about the “Polocaust”." Index on Censorship 47.1 (2018): 35-37.
  3. ^ Hackmann, Jörg. "Defending the “Good Name” of the Polish Nation: Politics of History as a Battlefield in Poland, 2015–18." Journal of Genocide Research 20.4 (2018): 587-606.
  4. ^ Ambrosewicz-Jacobs, Jolanta. "The uses and the abuses of education about the Holocaust in Poland after 1989." Holocaust Studies (2019): 1-22.
  5. ^ La Pologne minimise les incidents lors d’un colloque sur la Shoah à Paris, Le Monde, 4 March 2019
  6. ^ Polish magazine's 'Islamic rape of Europe' cover sparks outrage, Guardian, 18 Feb 2018

I request that ARCA consider the following:

  1. 500/30 protection for the topic of Polish-Jewish relations.
  2. 1RR for the topic of Polish-Jewish relations.
  3. A sourcing restriction. Some possibilities:
    1. Revert restriction - editors performing reverts of challenged material are responsible for verifying the contents. Failure to verify, and provide supporting quotes, is sanctionable.
    2. consensus for non-English sources: In disputes over foreign-language sources in the subject area of Polish-Jewish relations, disputed sources are removed unless and until there is a consensus to include them. (similar to WP:NOCONSENSUS EL policy).
    3. Only English-language academic sources for historical subjects.
    4. Excluding low-quality non-English sources - Blogs, websites, and media sources that are subject to censorship (e.g. see the WP:HISTRS proposal). High-quality English-language sources can be found in most topics.

Such sourcing restrictions will turn "content disputes" on foreign-language sources that are difficult for enforcing admins to verify themselves into actionable violations of a sourcing restriction. As copious and numerous English language sources are available in Holocaust studies, a restriction won't limit our source pool much; reputable non-English writers get translated to English or analyzed in English language secondary works. Consistent introduction of material that fails WP:V should be taken seriously, however expecting admins at AE to read 50 pages in a foreign language is not reasonable. Our goal should be that Wikipedia conforms to mainstream academic scholarship on the Holocaust, and I believe such measures would be a step forward. A limited measure in ARCA regarding sourcing (in line with AE admin comments over several cases) & non-EC edits might lead to fewer disruptions, an easier time at AE (fewer cases), and can be achieved without a full-fledged case.

RSN comment - while RSN can be quite lively if, say, Fox News is discussed - discussion of more serious sourcing issues - particularly if not in English - ends up as a discussion between the same INVOLVED editors with very little outside input. I will note I have also seen this on ARBPIA or say in this discussion on sourcing on an Indian language/script. Outside editors rarely get involved if it involves more than "knee jerk" response. The end result is that RSN, as it doesn't actually widen the discussion, ends with the same lack of consensus, between the same editors, on the article. At present - my feeling is that RSN isn't really functional for most non-English sources (as well as niche ares). WP:NOENG (preferring English sources, translations and quotations upon challenge for non-English sources) is policy. In practice my feeling is that it is not enforceable, and nor is the introduction of information failing WP:V - as long as it isn't clear black/white Holocaust denial - one can throw 50 pages of non-English citation at something (even when good English sources are available), even stonewall at providing quotations - and it would still be a non-actionable "content dispute". Icewhiz ( talk) 21:43, 19 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Piotrus

Since 1) I've been quoted by Icewhiz (through not notified, I refer specifically to this diff), and 2) this does concern one of my primary content areas, as I've created dozens articles on Polish-Jewish topics, such as Maria Roszak just few days ago and 3) this contains the most absurd request I've seen in my ~15 years here ("sourcing restriction for non-English sources for Jew-Polish relations."), I feel I should make a statement.

First. Regarding the 1RR restriction request, the "500/30 protection" (what is this, btw? I've never heard such term used on Wikipedia before... it is a form of semi-protection) and others (request to verify sources before reverting, etc.), as someone who has seen various edit conflicts in related topic areas in dozen+ years, including some that ended up at ArbCom, it is my view that there's no significant amount of vandalism, or long term edit warring, or any other malpractices that would raise to the level requiring any special treatment for this topic area or even for any particular articles (one can check history of major articles like Polish Jews or The Holocaust in Poland or such to see they are generally stable). While it would be nice to force editors to use higher quality sources, there's no reason to treat Polish-Jewish topic area any different from the rest of Wikipedia. While there are occasional disagreements, they are not raising above the usual noise level in this area.

Second, it would be absurd to ban or restrict non-English sources. AFAIK this hasn't been done for any topic area, and rightly so, as for each language there are plenty of reliable sources. To say that Foo-language sources (or anything that's not in English) cannot be used for XYZ-topic is a very serious accusation for any scholarship. While there are some particular cases we limit sources, they are very rare - I think there's a general consensus to be careful with Nazi-era sources, for example, but even then, there's no blanket rule saying that no Nazi-era sources are allowed (through perhaps there should be, I can similarly think of issues with ISIS sources, etc. - but those are extreme cases and we are hardly anywhere near this level of seriousness here). Over the years I've cautioned some people to be careful with Soviet-era sources for some topics, or modern Putin-era Russian historiography, and I concur there are some indications some (but certainly not all!) modern Polish historiography works exhibits a worrisome political agenda not unlike that found in Putin's Russia, and it is good for editors to realize this, but overall, WP:RS covers such situations pretty well, and if needed WP:RSN can be brought to bear on specific cases (ex. see this RSN discussion Icehwiz started, which IIRC led to the decision to stop using Paul (an English-language source, btw) as a source in this topic area. It's a proof that current tools and structures work, no special treatment is needed. To ban (and remove?) Polish and other non-English sources from Polish-Jewish topics would do immense damage to the project. Many articles in categories such as Category:Polish Righteous Among the Nations or Category:Jewish ghettos in Nazi-occupied Poland are based on Polish-language sources that simply do not exist in English. To ban sources ranging from Polish Biographical Dictionary to works by scholars from the Jewish Historical Institute or works published by many other Polish-Jewish organizations in Poland would be, IMHO, ridiculous. (As for 'remove low quality sources' plea, of course I support it - but to repeat myself, that's just like saying 'please enforce existing policies like RS'. Doh. Sure. Let's. We all agree. In all content areas. Nothing for ArbCom do look at here).

Nonetheless, the fact that such ridiculous request has been made bears considering in light that Icewhiz has often criticized Polish-language sources (ex. just yesterday here, or few months ago numerous times here - just search for NOENG; it's pretty much all Icewhiz criticizing NOENG/Polish sources; same here). While his criticism has not always been without merit (as sometimes he correctly identified low-quality sources), I don't see any relation between low quality sources he (or others, including myself) identify, and language. Sometimes we find and remove low quality Polish sources, sometimes they are English, occasionally they are in another language altogether. Language is not an issue. The fact that one can seriously make such request (April Fools has come and gone...) makes me wonder about their judgement, since to effectively try to argue that all non-English sources should be treated as if they were Nazi-German era works (i.e. automatically disqualified on the subject matter of Jewish history/culture/etc.) is not a sign of a sound editorial judgement.

Bottom line, if an editor feels that he has lost too many arguments, he should not turn to WP:FORUMSHOPPING. And trying to do so here may result in rather heavy WP:BOOMERANG. Because while there is nothing particularly wrong with Polish-Jewish topics on English Wikipedia (they are reasonably stable and neutral), there is some evidence that some editors are developing WP:BATTLEGROUND-like mentality, evidenced for example by spurious AE and even ArbCom-level requests (see my related wiki-essay). And that may be something that ArbCom may want to investigate, because a number of meritless requests at AE/ArbCom boards is an indicator of a potential problem (one that could warrant for example a ban from submitting spurious requests of such kind in the future). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Ealdgyth

Sourcing is bad on all sides in this area... these are just a few small examples I've run across ... I'm sure if I dug deeply, I'd be able to find plenty of others. Note that I've very carefully not pointed out who did these various problems - because that just feeds the battleground mentality.

It's not just the troubling/sloppy sourcing that's occurring (and these are likely the tip of the iceberg), it's the constant battleground mentality that affects most editors in this area. One person adds something that's sloppily sourced, the other side reverts and screams bloody murder on the talk page, but then that second side adds something else that's also sloppily sourced and then the first side starts screaming bloody murder. And everything is accompanied by endless reverts ... there is not any way for third party editors who aren't invested in the conflict to actually contribute for any length of time because it's just so dreadfully draining. 1RR doesn't seem to help, because there are multiple editors on each "side" so ... the reverts just roll in and people who aren't on a side just give up and walk away - I've done it often enough.

I don't know if there are any answers. On days when I'm terribly discouraged, I think banning everyone on both sides might help but...I'm afraid that won't solve the problems, which unfortunately are tied to academic and political debates that have become so contentious that they are spilling over into wikipedia.

Pinging SlimVirgin ( talk · contribs) and K.e.coffman ( talk · contribs), both of whom I've obliquely mentioned here. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Nihil novi

The initiator of the present discussion writes that non- Polonophones may have difficulty verifying sources that are not in English. For this reason, where the original Polish texts have been provided, e.g. in the references, I have often translated them into English. I have also suggested that the original Polish texts routinely be so provided, and that I will be happy to render them into English. I stand by my suggestion and offer. Thank you. Nihil novi ( talk) 20:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Kurtis

@ Piotrus: 500/30 (also known as extended-confirmed protection, or 30/500) is a special type of semi-protection that restricts accounts with less than 500 edits or have been registered for less than 30 days from editing certain pages. That is to say, an account that was registered 10 years ago but has only made 404 edits would be unable to edit a page under 500/30 protection, as would an account that has made thousands upon thousands of edits within 24 days of signing up. Both conditions must be met for an account to be granted extended-confirmed status, permitting them to edit a 500/30 protected article. Kurtis (talk) 21:39, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by François Robere

If the committee accepts this proposal now, it won't be a moment too soon. Throughout the discussions in this topic area we've seen (in no particular order) book summaries, liturgical press, Geocities-SPS, press releases, Ph.D students on popular websites, censorship based on supposed Communist background, independent authors, potentially antisemitic and pseudonymic authors, and more (other examples here: [81] [82]). Piotrus is right in asserting that current policy was enough to resolve all of these problems, but WP:RS alone wasn't enough: we had RfCs on writers you never heard of, and days-long discussions on sources with less than 5 citations globally (which were introduced to the discussion as "notable", "important", or even "preeminent" historians). In several cases editors introduced what would later be deemed a non-RS to dozens of articles at the same time; in another, a plagiarizing source was removed 8.5 years after it was discovered. Piotrus is wrong, however, in suggesting this is "forum shopping" trying to rehash past disagreements - those we mostly managed, with much time and angst; rather, this is an attempt to prevent future ones by raising the bar on sourcing, so that we're left with actual content disputes rather than biography hunts and repeated translation requests.

Nihil novi has indeed made an effort translating and making sources accessible. This removed some of the language barriers, but did not solve several other problems: out of context quoting (where you'd need the whole page rather than 2-3 sentences); low-quality sources; inaccessible materials (low circulation, out of print etc. - often the result of low quality); and editors refusing to supply quotations or exact citations of their materials - all problems that would be resolved by this proposal.

Which leads me to a fact central to all of this: WWII is a major area of scholarship, and virtually all reputable sources end up being published in English. Sources that don't are either undiscovered or disreputable; if they're undiscovered (old and forgotten, or new and yet to be translated), then it's not our job to introduce them into the mainstream (in some cases it could even constitute WP:OR); and if they're disreputable, then we shouldn't use them anyway. And so our choice here is essentially between stability and novelty: do we use the freshest materials, even those that are yet to be translated; or the stablest materials - those that have garnered the broadest attention and acceptance? In topic areas that are this prone to edit warring and disagreement, I'd argue for the stablest.

And one final note on admins: Among the host of... ineffective admins, Ealdgyth has been the only one willing to take this topic seriously and try to make sense of who's who and what's what; the only one to actually go through the sources and try to mediate compromise - or just enforce the rules - instead of waiting for things to repeatedly explode at ANI/AE. Otherwise the boards have been nearly useless, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. [83] [84] Whatever other decision you reach, you should pass this stern message to admins: an effective admin is one who gets involved and dives deep into the disagreements, not one who sits on the sidelines and only occasionally and selectively applies policy. An effective admin is not a policy-application machine, but a person who reasons with depth [85] and is willing to make sure things get done. If you're willing to invest yourself in being an effective admin, then by all means do so - you have the backing of the community. But if you don't, then stay away. François Robere ( talk) 16:30, 18 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Tatzref

This request is, in my view, misplaced. There is no valid justification for restricting discussion on historical subjects only to English-language academic sources or imposing a requirement of consensus with regard to non-English, specifically Polish language sources. This would simply erase or block important research by Polish historians that is not available in English or is not mentioned in English texts. A typical case in point is the following. Icewhiz erased the following text in its entirety from the article on History of the Jews in Poland ( /info/en/?search=History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland), and replaced it with their own:

12:23, 12 March 2019‎ Icewhiz talk contribs‎ 219,143 bytes +1,651‎ →‎Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property: Remove content as it failed verification vs. the cited sources, misused a primary source, and was contradicted by available English RSes. Replace with content cited to academic English-language sources available online.)

A restitution law "On Abandoned Real Estates" of May 6, 1945 allowed property owners who had been dispossessed, or their relatives and heirs, whether residing in Poland or outside the country, to reclaim privately owned property under a simplified inheritance procedure. The law remained in effect until the end of 1948. An expedited court process, entailing minimal costs, was put in place to handle claims. Applications had to be examined within 21 days, and many claims were processed the day they were filed. Poles often served as witnesses to corroborate claims of Jewish neighbors and acquaintances. Jewish law firms and agencies outside Poland specialized in submitting applications on behalf of non-residents. Many properties were also transferred and sold by Jewish owners outside this process. [1] The American Jewish Year Book reported, at the time, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.” [2] Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed, for example, more than 520 properties were reclaimed in two county towns of Lublin province alone (281 applications in Zamość, and 240 in Włodawa - some applications involved multiple properties). [3]

All of this information is based on reliable sources produced by reputable, professional Polish historians (Alina Skibinska, Lukasz Krzyzanowski, Krzysztof Urbanski, Adam Kopciowski). Moreover, the information about postwar property restoration is based on primary research into hundreds of Polish court records for each town that is mentioned. Alina Skibinska states, in relation to Szczebrzeszyn, that at least one third of the 210 private properties belonging to Jews before the war were returned to their owners or their heirs by 1950, and that almost all of these properties were very quickly sold to Poles (Klucze o kasa, p. 562). She goes on to assess the workings of the local municipal court: the vast majority of claims were favorably dealt with; the pace at which this was done was very speedy, as many of the claims were allowed the day they were received or very soon after; the judges very often overlooked deficiencies in the applications (Klucze i kasa, p. 568-569).

The text that Icewhiz substituted uses publications of poor quality with no sources cited for the relevant claims (Laurence Weinbaum, The Plunder of Jewish Property during the Holocaust), publications that do not look into actual court records and outcomes of property claims (Michael Meng, Shattered Spaces), or publications that refer to selected court records but do not undertake a systematic investigation of the records of any one town (Cichopek-Gajraj, Beyond Violence), and then make sweeping generalizations that the in-depth investigations of court records do not support. Moreover, the research into Polish court records fully accords with the monitoring that Jewish organizations were conducting at the time. The American Jewish Year Book, a highly reliable source authored by academics, reported in 1947-1948, that “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.” The postwar decrees in question were introduced for the benefit of the Jews, with a much simplified and cheaper process than the regular court inheritance procedures, which one could always resort to. Icewhiz simply wiped all this out as allegedly “failed verification vs. the cited sources, misused a primary source” because it doesn’t accord with what he thinks the historical record should be. This smacks of censorship and is a disastrous forecast for the state of such articles. Tatzref ( talk) 22:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC) Further clarifications. Tatzref ( talk) 12:40, 19 April 2019 (UTC) Tatzref ( talk) 12:45, 19 April 2019 (UTC) reply

  1. ^ Jan Grabowski and Dariusz Libionka, eds. Klucze i kasa: O mieniu żydowskim w Polsce pod okupacją niemiecką i we wczesnych latach powojennych 1939–1950 (Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą 2014), 522–523, 529, 568–569, 575–607. Also Krzysztof Urbański. Kieleccy Żydzi (Kraków: Pracownia Konserwacji Zabytków w Kielcach and Małopolska Oficyna Wydawnicza, n.d. [1993]), 180–190; Marta Pawlina-Meducka, ed. Z kroniki utraconego sąsiedztwa: Kielce, wrzesień 2000/From the Chronicle of the Lost Neighborhood: Kielce, September 2000 (Kielce: Kieleckie Towarzystwo Naukowe, 2001), 202.
  2. ^ American Jewish Year Book, 5708 (1947–1948), vol. 49 (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1947), 390.
  3. ^ Adam Kopciowski. Zagłada Żydów w Zamościu (Lublin: Wydawnictwo Uniwersytetu Marii Curie-Skłodowskiej, 2005), 203; Adam Kopciowski, "Anti-Jewish Incidents in the Lublin Region in the Early Years after World War II," ≈Holocaust: Studies and Materials vol. 1 (2008), 188.

Statement by Zero0000

I believe that all editors who use sources which a typical English-speaking editor will have great difficulty verifying should be willing to provide quotations and/or translations. Not just foreign language sources, but rare sources too. But that's a project-wide fundamental issue which shouldn't be addressed on a per-area basis.

Concerning the specific requests:

  • Items 1 and 2: no problem
  • Items 3.1: X inserts text+source, Y deletes it, Z reverts Y. Is Z now personally responsible for text+source? Surely it depends on other details, such as whether Y gave a good reason for the deletion. Also, this would encourage bulk deletions, since nobody could revert them without checking every single source they include.
  • Items 3.2–3.4: The committee should consider the editing record of the filer in the Jewish-Polish domain and compare it to the likely effect on article neutrality if extra restrictions are placed on Polish sources which don't apply to English sources.

Zero talk 01:14, 21 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other editors}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).


Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • On the face of it, this seems more like a case request than something for ARCA. If it's too complex for AE, we would need the extended framework of a case to examine the totality of the evidence. I would likely vote to accept this as a case request, but I decline to consider extending 500/30 to an entire topic area in the absence of a case. ~ Rob13 Talk 06:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply
    • I will echo Joe that I would not consider any broad restriction on non-English sources. That is firmly a content question. If the community wishes to impose such a restriction at WP:AN or WP:RSN in this topic area, they can do so. I do see some potential for a case request based on the allegations here, but such a case request would need to focus on the behavioral problems here: intentionally introducing foreign language sources which do not support the text, POV pushing, etc. by either any established editor or new/IP editors as a group. That's something that would be ripe for arbitration. ~ Rob13 Talk 16:25, 19 April 2019 (UTC) reply
  • I'm absolutely against placing restrictions on sourcing. That's well into content territory, out of both ArbCom and AE's remit. The other sanctions are possible, but I agree with Rob: we would need a full case to examine this issue properly. –  Joe ( talk) 09:59, 18 April 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Absolutely agree with the above. (Well, with one small point - I don't think rejecting all foreign-language sources in a topic area would fly as a community restriction either.) To the extent that this is a POV-pushing or source misrepresentation problem, those are behavior issues that can go through normal dispute resolution channels, and if those are exhausted then it'd be time for a case request. I don't see anything workable in the ARCA format, though - this would need an evidence-gathering process. Opabinia regalis ( talk) 09:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed with my colleagues that we would hear this matter as a fresh case request; I would be unsurprised to find this topic needs a "sequel case".
    The record of inconclusive enforcement requests throws up a couple of issues. First, administrators should probably stop saying that a remedy is too confusing to be enforced. At AE, if you wish to not enforce a remedy or assess a request, best is that you just keep quiet. Speaking up in this way has a chilling effect. Second, I think these 1-Revert Restrictions (1RRs) are doing more harm than good. The received wisdom goes that limiting the quantity of reverts compels a disputant to "choose wisely". Yet 1RR simply encourages the spreading out of reverts over time. The received wisdom also goes that limiting the frequency of reverts stabilises the article for our readers. However, protection may do well enough.
    I am less concerned by the submissions that non-EC users are a destabilising force. The evidence supplied just seems to show a bunch of anonymous users adding content that gets reverted in short order. AGK  ■ 20:36, 26 April 2019 (UTC) reply
    • information Note: Absent objection, it would seem we have provided all the guidance that we can. I move to close this request. AGK  ■ 10:12, 28 April 2019 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification request: Eastern Europe (January 2021)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by EvergreenFir at 20:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by EvergreenFir

Does the scope of the discretionary sanctions promulgated by this amendment or original case include Turkey? I ask because I recently have noticed an increase in complaints around nationalist editing for and against Turkey, as well as disruptive editing around Turkey and Armenia. Examples include:

Eastern_Europe#Southeast_Europe says the part of Turkey is in Eastern Europe, but only a small portion. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Further clarification: If Turkey is included, then would Uyghurs be included as well? This is another area full of disruption. The article describes the Uyghurs as a "Turkic ethnic group". EvergreenFir (talk) 20:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Thank you all for the clarification! EvergreenFir (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by MJL

The sanctions of Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 were put in place, per the 2013 Clarification request, to deal with cases of ethnic conflicts similarly related to the one of Armenia/Azerbaijan. This would likely include the conflict between Armenia and Turkey, but I can't imagine it would be so permissive to include just Turkey (and certainly not the Uyghurs). – MJL  ‐Talk‐ ☖ 00:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by Ymblanter (Eastern Europe)

I am sure the EE discretionary sanctions do not include Turkey-Armenia relations. They are rooted in WP:EEML, and Turkey has never been an issue there. On the other hand, recently the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh intensified in real life, because Azerbaijan took an offensive against this Armenia-held area with the support of Turkey, and was able to regain control over a considerable part of it (with Armenians being evacuated). This caused escalation of Armenian-Azerbaijani clashes all over the internet, including Wikipedia. The reason that Turkey-Armenia issues escalated are in this conflict, and it would be reasonable to add them to the Armenia-Azerbaijan discretionary sanctions. Furthermore, if we are talking about Turkey-Syria issues, these are neither Eastern Europe nor Armenia-Azerbaijan. They are currently covered by general sanctions, and I believe upgrading them to DS could be a good idea but it would require a full case and can not be done as clarification.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 10:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Uyghurs live in China, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan, I do not see them being relevant for the EE DS however broadly we interpret them.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 10:47, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I don't believe the Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions have ever included Turkey. However, note that there is a separate DS authorization for Armenia and Azerbaijan. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 20:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with NYB and think that if we're going to expand a DS to include Turkey, A&A2 would be a better candidate. If folks think its warranted, I would also be a fan of just passing a separate Turkey DS by motion, but I'd like feedback to know the extent of the problem so we have a good idea what the scope should be. I find including Uyghurs under either to be...a stretch. Sure there are a few Uyghurs in Turkey, but it is mostly a China issue. The "related ethnic conflict" wording of A&A2 is broad, but I think not broad enough to include Uyghurs. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 21:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • A&A2 did include Turkey for some editors, however I feel loathed to just stick in DS for the area, without giving it a review - A&A2 was in 2008 and hasn't been modified since 2013 - alternatively a fresh case might be an option. I agree with the above arbs that Eastern Europe would not be the best case to link to. WormTT( talk) 10:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply
    Guerillero shudder, do we want to open that box? Pandora seems to be holding it. WormTT( talk) 16:33, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed, Turkey is not included in the Eastern Europe case. I would really like to leave it at that... but it's hard to see how "related ethnic conflicts, broadly interpreted" won't ensnare a fair amount of Turkey. Still, the 2013 A&A amendment did not add "Turkey, broadly interpreted", much less "Turkic peoples, broadly interpreted". -- BDD ( talk) 20:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Agree that EE does not include Turkey. If there are problems that need review and which are outside the A&A scope, it would probably need a full case. Regards So Why 07:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I think WTT's statement reflect my thinking well on this matter. Best, Barkeep49 ( talk) 16:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Pile-on agree that Turkey is not covered by EE sanctions, but I do want to elaborate on my reasoning. The previous disputes in the EE topic area are generally to do with various ethnic/national disputes to do with the European parts of the ex-Soviet Union (including the Baltics), Poland, and the Balkans. This is, broadly speaking, to where the most ethnic/nationalistic advocacy is related to. Disputes to do with Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria are not as prominent but I doubt they're unheard of. Balkan disputes are most often to do with topics to do with ex-Yugoslavia. Turkey doesn't fit into any of these categories. Maxim(talk) 20:44, 10 January 2021 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Amendment request: Nicoljaus, indef topic ban (September 2021)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Nicoljaus at 10:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive281#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Nicoljaus
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive281#Result of the appeal by Nicoljaus


List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Information about amendment request
  • Lift or mitigate a topic-ban


Statement by Nicoljaus

In February 2021 I received an indefinite topic ban. My attempt to appeal it ended in failure. Newslinger dismissed my appeal by repeating the unfounded "hounding" charge. The topic ban is formulated in such a way that it covers all areas in which I have ever worked in English Wikipedia [87] and where my contribution can be useful. I ask you to reconsider the appeal and either remove TB or soften it. For example, I can edit and write articles without participating in discussions, with the additional limit of 1RR (which I already have). Well, or let's restrict TB to some really highly controversial topics (most of my edits do not apply to such topics).-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 10:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply

  • @ Ymblanter: Although this really has nothing to do with this appeal, everyone who is not involved should know that the administrator on Russian Wikipedia, who brought me to an indef-block, was as recently as two weeks ago indeffed for the persistent harassment of another person, the administrator and a member of the Russian Arbitration Committee. There is something very serious, and now Trust&Safety is dealing with it [88]. As for my block evasion, I acted on the basis of WP:5P5, but ArbCom acted on solid legal grounds and I respect its decision. So I cleared my watchlist and won't even react to outright vandalism.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 11:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • but also because what isn't unconterversial when it comes to the WP:BALKANS -- Well, let's eliminate them! No edits in articles related to the Balkans, great. What about other articles from "Eastern Europe, broadly construed"? I am looking at my Top edited pages [89]. Medieval Russian history? WWII military operations? I have not had any problems with most of the articles I have worked on, until I met with Ethno-national socks, like those of of Umertan, Crovata and others. Okay, I will not edit articles that have anything to do with Ukraine either, so as not to disturb these Ethno-national socks.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 20:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • It's rather sad to see, El_C, that you are again imposing a distorted perception of my words on everyone, trying to make me look bad, instead of considering the issue of reasonably limiting the topic-ban. I'm talking about specific Umertan dolls [90], there is no "sarcasm" and "passive aggression".-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 03:23, 12 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • @ Thryduulf: especially if it impacts an area where they are doing good work -- I do not want to seem immodest )) but perhaps you will take a look at these articles I created and say if it was "good work"? [91] (Note: the article 15th–16th century Moscow–Constantinople schism was a joint work with Veverve). And beside that, I have made extensive additions to the articles from this list [92]; they all belong to Eastern Europe, one way or another. If you completely remove the articles related to the Balkans (2 out of 20) and Ukraine (3 out of 20), 15 articles will remain. For example, my work in these articles ( 1, 2, 3, 4) seems to me quite good, and there were no any conflicts at all.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 09:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • @ Thryduulf: I beg your pardon, I misunderstood. Of course, I did not agree with such a wide topic-ban and wrote about this in my appeal: guys, seriously, what are the problems if I write articles like Dmitry Krasny, Battle of Belyov, Izyum-Barvenkovo Offensive, Alexander Bubnov, 15th–16th century Moscow–Constantinople schism (except for my poor English, of course)? There this issue was not considered in any way. I hoped that this issue would finally be considered by the ArbCom, as it is recommended here: "submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA")". I took a break, because somewhere I saw that it was possible to dispute the decision no earlier than six months later (but perhaps I got something wrong here). Anyway, thanks for your clarifications, they helped me.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 12:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Well, since El_C has forgotten, I will write briefly how it was. In 2019 in the article Rusyns I met user Miki Filigranski, who began to push fringe or outdated theories about White Croats. In fact, my interest in the Balkans is rather limited - only as a part of the general medieval history (the origin of the Slavs, the Iron Age, etc.) - but I was aware of the current state of research on this matter. This user’s favorite expression in controversy with someone was “blatant lie”, in addition to pushing fringe theories, cherry picking and so on. He did this for years and did not receive any topic-ban until he was indeffed as a sockpuppet of the user Crovata (I did not participate in this in any way). When MF received a short-term block, Mikola22 came to the discussion about the White Croats to support his POV (first under IP, then he registered). It was almost impossible to convince him, and when I reverted his new, non-consensual edits, I got some blocks. Eventually Mikola22 got an indefinite topic ban from WP:ARBEE [93] (I had nothing to do with it either, we haven't crossed paths for over a year).
Much more later, in February 2021, there was a massive campaign against Navalny [94], as a result of which Amnesty even temporarily deprived him of his "prisoner of conscience" status (they soon admitted their mistake and apologized [95]). Precisely at this time, the user Mhorg began to violate WP:BIO - he use unreliable sources (blog posts), directly distort what was written in sources (for example, the "citizens of Georgia" whom Navalny proposed to deport as a measure of non-military pressure on the government of Georgia, Mhorg turned into "ethnic Georgians"), and defiantly ignored WP:BALASP. Such things in articles about a living person is pretty bad, so when I saw this, I tried to do something with this. This campaign was also attended by user PaleSimon, who received an indefinite block a month later (on another topic, I have nothing to do with this, but it's a pity that completely similar behavior in the topic about Navalny did not receive due attention). I cannot say that my actions in this conflict were perfect, but my intentions were honest. There were no "wikihounding" on my part and no one bothered to prove that this "wikihounding", as of "an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress to the other editor" really took place. And it insults me that the indefinite topic ban was introduced immediately after Mhorg accused me of editing articles "just to annoy him". But these are all past cases, I understand that it is useless to look for some kind of justice here. What I don’t understand: why these episodes lead to a conclusion about my fundamental inability to work specifically on the topic of all "Eastern Europe, broadly construed". And this is the issue that I am asking the arbitration committee to consider. As I see in WP:ARBGUIDE: "Arbitrators focus on the risk and benefits for the future, not on past issues".-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 13:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by El_C

Last I heard from the appellant was about 30 days ago, on Aug 9 —see latest thread on their talk page ( perm link)— where they pinged me in their response to a bot (!). A weird experience. But besides that exchange, they have a total of like 5 contribs post-Feb. So, in so far as demonstrating that they're able to edit okay'ish outside the ban, it just isn't really a thing that they did. El_C 13:45, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply

WTT, I don't see any sense in adjusting the ban at this time, partly per Primefac, but also because what isn't unconterversial when it comes to the WP:BALKANS? I don't mean that rhetorically, I really can't tell. It's possible that pretty much any BALKANS-covered subject carries within it the antecedents of requiring AE support.
As an example, check out my latest protection of Medieval Monuments in Kosovo ( AEL diff). I'll quote myself, as I am fond of doing: Ethno-national sock returns to this rather obscure page. Okay ( RfPP diff). Damn, Cyberbot I is getting plumped on treats! El_C 14:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
Quoting Nicoljaus above ( 16:55, 10 Sept): Okay, I will not edit articles that have anything to do with Ukraine either, so as not to disturb these Ethno-national socks. What can I say about that passive-aggressive sarcasm (in their own appeal!) except: more of the same. El_C 18:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC) reply
Nicoljaus, I'd have thought you'd at least be at your best behaviour when before the arbitrators (and for a while, it looked like you were). Either way, I'm happy to leave you to your own devices so as not to disturb whatever it is that you're doing at this point. But if you quote me, don't be shocked when I do the same in response. El_C 04:05, 12 September 2021 (UTC) reply
@ Newyorkbrad, L235, and Worm That Turned: while the first sanctions (Feb 2020) concerned medieval BALKANS material, the dispute that brought the final sanction (Feb 2021 blanket EE TBAN) involved a conflict over Russian/Ukrainian stuff as I recall. So, as to the impression (on my part, too, initially) that this sanction is BALKANS with EE adjacent, well, that is apparently not so. I know, who can follow any of this or, for my part, even remember. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ El_C 08:22, 16 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by Newslinger

Statement by Ymblanter

Whereas it has no direct bearing on the appeal, it is useful for all involved to know that Nicoljaus is blocked indef in the Russian Wikipedia, and the ArbCom rejected their appeal as recently as two weeks ago due to ongoing block evasion [96].-- Ymblanter ( talk) 11:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by Thryduulf

Speaking in general terms (I have no opinion about this specific appeal) I think that topic bans should be narrowed only in two circumstances:

  1. Immediately or very shortly after it was imposed iff there is consensus that the topic ban was far too broad for the disruption caused, especially if it impacts an area where they are doing good work (e.g. a topic ban from "Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted" would not be appropriate if the disruption was solely related to say Poland-Russia relations but they do good work on articles about European rivers)
  2. When the editor has demonstrated good work in topic areas not covered but it is unclear whether they should be permitted back into the area of disruption. In such cases allowing the editor to contribute to the fringe of the area can be a good way to demonstrate reform or otherwise.

Outside of those two situations though, topic bans should be either retained as enacted or removed completely. Thryduulf ( talk) 11:12, 14 September 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Nicoljaus: you appear to have overlooked the "Immediately or very shortly after it was imposed" part of my comment. If you don't appeal the scope within that timescale it is reasonable to assume you accept it as valid and appropriate, and so to get it narrowed later you need to demonstrate good work in topic areas not covered by the topic ban as imposed. Thryduulf ( talk) 11:36, 16 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by Mhorg

I intervene here as the user Nicoljaus talked about me and pinged me. Nicoljaus is bringing things into the speech that have nothing to do with his ban:

1. He was not banned for intervening on Navalny's article, but because, following "clashes" on the dissident's discussions page, the user began to target to my old contributions from almost a year before, and did not do it alone, [97] in fact in this AE Request [98], which I opened against User:My very best wishes, I listed what in my opinion were 6 cases of wikihounding against me (the user even began to interfere in discussions on my talk page with other users, and for this he was warned by an administrator [99]), in some of whom Nicoljaus was also involved. Note that I had not opened the AE Request against Nicoljaus (despite an admin had warned him not to cast aspersions against me [100]), but I was only asking him to stop following me along with "My very best wishes".
2. Nicoljaus then, aggressively, even comes to ask me to open an AE Request against him (which I have not done anyway), acting in defense of "My very best wishes". [101]
3. Just to point out that the user has a battleground mentality, he even intervened in a (crazy) SPI against me, [102] opened by "My very best wishes", after 3 months of inactivity [103] only for what seems like a revenge.

Instead, analyzing the way in which he reported the story of the heated debates on Navalny:

1. Precisely at this time, the user Mhorg began to violate WP: BIO - he use unreliable sources (blog posts) For real? The post came from Navalny's official blog, and served to explain precisely what he had stated. Also, Nicoljaus had no problem expanding that part which contradicted what the secondary sources reported (incorrectly), using Navalny's own blog as a source. [104] Inconsistency.
2. directly distort what was written in sources (for example, the" citizens of Georgia "whom Navalny proposed to deport as a measure of non-military pressure on the government of Georgia, Mhorg turned into "ethnic Georgians" It was my translation error, when Nicoljaus pointed it out to me I promptly corrected the part. [105] Nicoljaus is talking about it as if mine was a bad faith act.
3. This campaign was also attended by user PaleSimon, who received an indefinite block a month later I didn't understand why the user wants to associate me with this user PaleSimon (who only released 5 short comments on that discussion page), perhaps Nicoljaus should be reminded that in the same discussion, he was backing User:LauraWilliamson [106], a Gordimalo sockpuppet (and Gordimalo continued the fight in the discussion with an another sockpuppet, Beanom [107]).

I hope not to be forced to intervene again on this topic, despite the desire to tone down, I have already wasted a lot of time in not very constructive discussions with this user.-- Mhorg ( talk) 18:33, 19 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Nicoljaus, indef topic ban: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Nicoljaus, indef topic ban: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I would like to hear from others (especially User:El C) regarding the possibility of a "softened" topic ban, but I don't see any reason to overturn the action outright. I also don't particularly see that softening is the right option, but am willing to listen to further opinions. WormTT( talk) 14:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
    Thank you El C, I appreciate the thoughts, which tally with my own. I'm also a "no" on this request. WormTT( talk) 15:43, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • This is pretty darn similar to the other open request - a topic ban six months ago with only a half-dozen article/talk edits since then; no indication that the user can be productive outside these areas, which is the whole point of a topic ban. Primefac ( talk) 14:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • DS does not work if the Arbs substitute their judgement for that of the levying admin. So I hesitate to overturn a sanction except if there has been a substantive error in DS policy or it is a WP:ROPE kind of appeal. My analysis of the diffs suggests that there was disruptive behavior aimed at another editor (Mhorg) and that this behavior continued after a clearly worded warning. Nicoljaus does not seem understand why multiple people have reached a similar conclusion which means a sanction remains necessary. So I will not be supporting this appeal. What's not clear to me is if a 1-way interaction ban would have the same effect or if there has been disruptive behavior aimed at other editors that necessitates a topic ban. I throw that question out there for El C to consider but on the whole find the sanctions levied to be not only with-in policy, as a topic ban is an appropriate next step for someone already under a 1RR restriction who causes further issues in an area, but that some sanction was clearly necessary given the evidence. So I am a no on procedure (not sufficient evidence to overturn a DS sanction) and a no on merits (the sanction is a good use of DS given the evidence). Barkeep49 ( talk) 15:02, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I fully agree with what Barkeep49 said. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with Barkeep. -- BDD ( talk) 15:01, 13 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Although it is obviously a minority opinion here (as on the other pending appeal), I'd be willing to narrow the scope of the topic-ban to cover editing on disputes or controversies involving Eastern Europe, rather than any and every article about an entire subcontinent. (After all, we don't typically ban American editors who misbehave while editing about American topics from "all editing about the United States, broadly construed.") Newyorkbrad ( talk) 04:46, 14 September 2021 (UTC) reply
    NYB, we give our uninvolved admins the leeway to make the decision they feel is right on DS. I would need a VERY good reason to modify one. Overturning I can understand, if some requirement was met, but modification just implies that "I wouldn't have done it that way", well - that's the discretion part of DS. Modifying would, in my opinion, do far more damage to confidence in the system than it would benefit anyone. WormTT( talk) 08:08, 14 September 2021 (UTC) reply
    I 100% agree with Worm. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I think Barkeep49 and WTT are spot on in their assessments. Modifying sanctions by ArbCom should be limited to cases where the sanction is objectively indefensible in order to for the "D" in "DS" to work. Regards So Why 19:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I can think of only two reasons to modify a topic ban: either it was wrong on it's face when enacted, or the user has successfully demonstrated they can contribute positively by editing in areas outside the bounds of the ban. Neither seem to apply here. It is an unfortunate risk of such sanctions that they do sometimes drive an editor completely off of the project, but we have to consider the community as a whole as well. I would encourage Nicoljaus to find some other area that interests them, something less fraught and emotional, there must be something, and to just ignore this topic area entirely for a while. You may find that editing in a topic area you don't have stong opinions about it a good deal more enjoyable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beeblebrox ( talk • contribs) 21:04, 19 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with WTT, Primefac, and Barkeep49. Maxim(talk) 14:45, 21 September 2021 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Additional statements

Comment by Moreschi

Eastern Europe is something of a battleground (understatement of the decade), and I'm sure everyone's heartily sick of the sight of this sort of thing (not another case...), but I don't think this can be ducked. Yes, ANI does not equate to dispute resolution, but I think the Arbitration Committee is needed here to sort things out. This has been coming for a while. Moreschi Talk 18:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

  • Note to arbitrators: yes, something can be done here. Yes, we already know (I see that the Piotrus case has just closed) that Eastern Europe is all screwball, but in this instance there are some genuinely worrying accusations of atrocious user conduct that deserve investigation. I don't think this can be fully fixed, and perhaps it never will, but at the moment the Committee is better placed to attempt some sort of fix than the wider community. Moreschi Talk 12:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Oh, for heaven's sake, that was a comment on Eastern European Wikipedia articles. Do get a sense of proportion. Also, no legal threats. Attitudes such are yours as doubtless part of the problem. Moreschi Talk 16:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Martintg

This seems like a snowjob. No evidence of any real dispute resolution such as mediation or RFC being attempted by the complainant in the first instance. Do we really want to short circuit this and go straight to Arbitration for what is essentially a content dispute over the interpretation of Soviet history? Martintg 20:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

  • Thanks to Bishonen for resurrecting Petri Krohn's RFC, which btw was deleted due to insufficient prior mediation before bringing case for RFC/U. As an aside, it must be said there was a good faith attempt at mediation by one side during the existance of the RFC/U, thanks to the efforts of DrKiernan, but was subsequently ignored by the other party, as indicated here [1]. However, I don't see how Petri Krohn's RFC could in any way be possibly used as a substitute for an RFC on Digwuren. Irpen wasn't a party in that previous RFC and Petri Krohn is not a party to this current RfA. The kernel of this complaint is the interpretation of Soviet history, in this instance concerning Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, the rest, such as the so called "Tartu based accounts" and groundless accusations of computer intrusion is just fanciful embellishment with no basis in fact. Certainly Digwuren's behaviour is comparably better than Petri Krohn's as documented in his disqualified RFC/U.
  • If Irpen was serious about this he should have taken it to mediation as a first step, therefore I propose this RfA be declined and mediation attempted first. Martintg 22:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Irpen mentions the nebulous "Tartu based accounts" in the title of this RfA and as one of the parties to this RfA. Who are they? It's not clear to me, what has this mysterious group allegedly done to warrant ArbCom intervention? Where is the evidence of mediation, as required by ArbCom when groups are involved. And the accusation of intrusion and hacking an admin's computer, as if a regular editor would know the IP address of an admin, what a complete joke. This RfA is ill considered, malformed and premature, and a waste of time until other dispute resolution methods are exhausted. Martintg 10:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • p.s. Digwuren appears to be presently offline, so I doubt he is even aware of this RfA. Martintg 10:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • In regard to RJ CG's statement in regard to "co-ordinated effort", perhaps he should realise his edits may be against concensus. Estonians ought to have some idea of their own history and be able to form a consensus without having to "co-ordinate". The notion that Estonian editors are somehow massively disrupting and edit warring Estonian related articles and should thus be punished is truly mind boggling. Digwuren was blocked for a week for attempting to expand an article anti-Estonian sentiment, thanks to the "Administrator with balls" FayssalF Since when did blocks become a tool in resolving content disputes? Why wasn't he given the opportunity for mediation for this particular article, rather than a block without warning out of the blue? Martintg 06:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Response to Petri Krohn

"absolutely no contributions", !!! Wow, what an amazingly audacious lie! Digwuren is one of the most competent and balanced editors in Wikipedia, with over 4000 edits [2] to his credit since joining in May. A great contribution by any standard. As for you claims of incivility, it is certainly a case of the pot calling the kettle black! Martintg 23:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

What I would like this arbitration case to achieve if accepted?

As per Alexia and Sander, continued unsubstantiated accusations of sock puppetry by the so-called "Tartu based accounts" is also uncivil and a slur, plus FayssalF admonished for slurring Digwuren's reputation with unsubstantiated accusations of computer hacking and intrusion [3]. Martintg 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Response to Ghirla's statement

Ghirla's anti-Estonia sentiment is very much a reflection of the view many Russophones hold towards eSStonia. It is a rather extreme view that has no place here in Wikipedia. As an aside, Digwuren's one week block which Ipen cites as evidence of bad behaviour was for defending the article anti-Estonian sentiment, against someone who was blanking and turning it into a redirect [4], a redirect that Irpen himself subsequently objected to [5]. Ghirla's idea of a central committee on Eastern Europe-related topics is positively frightening, and I would oppose as it goes against the whole philosophy of Wikipedia. Martintg 21:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Question by GRBerry

Would the proposed findings at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus/Proposed decision be sufficient (if so, reject the case), or is more needed?

Statement by FayssalF

I have to say that i've spent around 90 minutes to get all the following facts posted as they look below now. That's really a hard and unencyclopaedic task. I'd have rather gone editing. But well, for the benefit of Wikipedia? Hell, yes. There you go...

I have to agree w/ my fellow admin Moreschi in that Arbitration Committee's intervention is needed here to sort things out. Estonia-related articles have witnessed a massive edit warring w/o any attempt from any side to take that seriously and try to go through WP:DR. It has been a ground for multiple accusations from multiple parties.

Well, in brief. I was the admin who blocked Digwuren back on July 2007 as well as a couple of 2 other users which i'd identify as the "other side" in what follows.

Timeline

  • I can't recall the [AN/I thread] which lead to the following but i'll leave that to maybe someone else who can find the link. This is the link which i got from user:Irpen. That's the link and that's the one i referred to. One of the keys to this enigma is there.
  • On July 20, 2007, i've experienced some online intrusion attempts made against my machine (for what i could record, the experience lasted no more than a couple of hours). I've already got a C# userbox posted at my userpage. I am saying this responding to User:Suva's request to know about the IP in question. I am a programmer. I know about hacking but please don't accuse me of hacking anyone. The problem is that User:Suva insists in knowing about the exact location of the IP in question. No, that's IMPOSSIBLE as long as you are not an ADMIN. I've explained to everyone that any admin can contact me to know about this issue. Suva, i am an admin and admins are trusted by the community. Only an admin can get that kind of information. So please, stop insisting. I've already explained that it was not my intention to talk about that but since matters arrived to this point then i considered it is right to talk about it.

I could have easily blocked User:Ptrt indef as it is clear that the account has been created for a single purpose as explained above by User:Irpen. Anyways, this case would make that clear. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 22:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Petri Krohn (in reply to GRBerry)

The cases cannot be compared. User:Piotrus is one of Wikipedia's most valuable contributors. User:Digwuren on the other hand had absolutely no contributions to article space when I took up the issue in June. (See: ArbCom or block?) Since then there has been notable improvement in his contributions, but his uncivility and disrespect for WP:NPOV have remained. -- Petri Krohn 23:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by JdeJ

I must agree that Digwuren is a particularly unhelpful contributor. Looking at other comments here, it's obvious that he's defended by some other Estonians as Alexia Death (whom I consider a very good editor) for taking part in conflicts regarding Estonia. For the same reason, it's clear that those who have held the opposite views on some of these matters aren't too fond of him. Personally, I find some articles where I disagree with his opinions and others where I do disagree, but that's beside the point because: regardless of whether I think his opinions are right or wrong, I always find his way to behave out of line. My first contact ever was when he left a message on my talk page, calling me a "crackpot" [6]. The reason he did so was that I had dared to request a source for the claim that Estonians are the oldest people in Europe. After that, I've seen him revert pages he doesn't like with no explanations given, I've seen him call other users vandals for reverting his own edits etc. So the user is a consant POV-pusher who often attacks other users. JdeJ 07:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment on Digwuren and his woes

In reply to Alexia's statement, I'm not familiar with the user Ghirlas but it's true that I've been surprised by Petri Krohn's actions many times. Looking at the topics in which Digwuren and Petri have both been involved, my sympathies have almost always been with Digwuren as I consider Petri to be engaged with very weird kind of [ [7]]. Having said that, it does nothing to defend Digwuren. I can understand him becoming frustrated, but that is no reason for him to start acting in a disruptive and uncivil way himself. There are people you don't like at Wikipedia. If you cannot deal with that without copying their behaviour, Wikipedia might not be the best place. So I understand the frustration he must have felt but I can't see it being very relevant to this discussion. JdeJ 17:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by RJ CG

I would like to bring to community's attention another example of coordinated efforts of group in question [8], see times of edits [9], [10], [11], [12]. Within 3 minutes after one member of the team exhaused his revert limit (and within a minute after I, being an author of a change not to the goup's liking, reverted), another member of the group popped up, failed to identify his changes as a revert in edit history but did not contribute anything BUT a revert. RJ CG 16:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by Sander Säde

  • "Behind Tartu University firewall" accusation is ridiculous and can be easily verified by a checkuser. I have never edited Wikipedia from Tartu University - I've even been in Tartu only twice during last year, both times less then three hours and without using a computer. I guess that Martintg (from Australia) is also flying daily to Tartu? Tartu University cache servers are 193.40.5.245 ( talk · contribs) and 193.40.5.100 ( talk · contribs) (both IP's from DNS queries). Afaik, all Tartu University IP's should start with 193.40.* (hey, I just remembered my old IP from while I was in Uni, 193.40.8.80 ( talk · contribs). Sad, isn't it? I can remember an IP I haven't used in years...).
  • As for RJ CG's accusations of "coordinated efforts" - I have my watchlist as a RSS feed in FF live bookmarks, I tend to check it every 15..30 min or so when I am using the computer. Also, some time ago I wrote a script, cleverly named "Estonian articles to watchlist page" that utilizes AJAX to display changes in all WikiProject Estonia articles on top of your watchlist. Said script can be easily changed to support any WikiProject or category. That helps people easily to see changes in WP:E-related articles without a need to add them to watchlist.
For both "Korps! Tartuensis" and "coordinated efforts", I think that next user who accuses us to be sock/meatpuppets or coordinating "attacks" outside en.wikipedia without rock solid evidence must apologize. If he fails to do so, I think that he should be warned by a block.
  • Now, as for hacking accusation, I see no way to verify that it actually happened. Even if it did, there is no way to link it with any Wikipedian - as none of so-called "Korp! Tartuensis" is not an admin and therefore just would not know FayssalF's IP. I recommend that he creates a checkuser case with all of us and the IP. However, note that checkuser admin must do a reverse DNS and actually check what IP's are proxies (major ISP's redirect all traffic through proxy servers) and what are geographically close to each-other. Last checkuser cases involving Estonia were ridiculous, accusing basically all Estonian editors to be sockpuppets. Note, that I am unaware what data do admins doing checkuser queries see - or how knowledgeable they are of networking in general.
  • And finally, to Digwuren. I fully agree with Alexia and Martintg - Digwuren followed the behavioral patterns of users such as Ghirlandajo and Petri Krohn (I could mention few other users, some who have given their statements here as well). There is no forgiving for behavior such as this, for all three of them. But, there seems to be a special "out-of-the-jail card" if you have a lot of edits - and Digwuren does not have yet 20000+ edits. Others do.
However, he always sources his edits, is fully willing to overturn his own edits when new sources contradict them and follows NPOV guideline by trying to give a neutral viewpoint and sources from both "sides". He is also willing to discuss controversial edits in talk pages. All that cannot be said by far most Wikipedia editors. If you follow his edits, then you can see how he gradually became more and more frustrated when other editors (so-called "other side" or "opponents") are making unsourced or one-sided edits - or even insert clear falsehood to the articles.
In many ways it is Digwuren, who revived WikiProject Estonia - although I wish us WP:E editors could have more time to actually contribute, instead of wasting our time to patrol for pro-Soviet/anti-Estonian edits and be involved in cases such as this. Digwuren has contributed to great many articles and if he stops behaving in the same way as those Estophobic users, I see him as a very valuable editor to Wikipedia - in future, perhaps among most valuable contributors. He is relentless in chasing sources and improving articles.
I've said it before, my recommendation is for an admin to warn Digwuren about his edit summaries - and clearly state that he will be blocked unless he stops those. It might be useful, though, if an uninvolved administrator follows all changes in WP:E articles for a while - if not for nothing else, then to actually witness what we have to go through daily.
  • As for the "Statement by non-involved Ghirla" below, I think that is the biggest pile of hypocrisy I've seen on Wikipedia. Far from being "non-involved", he has been the biggest "inspiration" for Digwuren when it comes to incivility. He is accusing (once again, without evidence) of sock/meatpuppets, being a fascist/neo-nazi, tendentious editing ("neo-Nazi flavoured revisionism" - which strangely enough, has been published in scientific journals... Those evil Estonian Nazis must have taken over those as well.). How long will this have to go on until he will be warned for personal attacks and incivility?
Ghirla has one excellent idea, though - committee on Eastern Europe-related topics. I would include Baltics to the scope of that committee as well - apparently Ghirla forgot, that Estonia (and rest of the Baltics) is a part of Northern Europe, not Eastern Europe. Committee on Eastern bloc, perhaps? Committee such as that is badly needed - to check that edits follow valid sources.
What I would like this arbitration case to achieve if accepted?
  1. End for "Korps! Tartuensis" and sockpuppet accusations, unless someone actually manages to find some proof. So far there is none. Any editors continuing such attacks to be blocked.
  2. Rules must apply equally for all. Huge edit count is not an excuse to insult other editors, disrupt Wikipedia or misbehave. Civility is not optional.
  3. An uninvolved administrator (or more then one) to keep an eye on changes in WikiProject Estonia articles. Hopefully that would be enough to stop this smear campaign.
  4. Digwuren to be warned - and if he doesn't change his ways, blocked for a month. Same applies for all other involved editors - warning for any signs of incivility and block if that is continued.

Sander Säde 19:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC) (updated 19:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)) reply

Statement by probably non-involved Ghirla

The Digwuren case is crystal clear. If there is a troll in the project, he is one. User:Molobo was blocked for a year for less serious revert-warring sprees and boorishness. I have seen no useful edits from Digwuren, except provocations, taunting, and reverts. The leniency of the community to the obnoxious tendentious accounts is appaling. Before Digwuren's appearance in the project, Estonia-related topics were the only quiet haven in the Eastern Europe-related segment of the project. He has effectively turned Wikipedia:WikiProject Estonia into a hate group. An attack page against Petri Krohn is a good example of what it's all about. Given the number of vocal meatpuppets, only ArbCom may realistically ban him from the site, for a year at least.

I don't consider myself a party to this case. I'm not interested in Estonia and I don't give a hoot about Estonia-related topics, but I cannot help being alarmed about the way in which the dispute has evolved. A weekly diarrhea of sterile ANI threads is particularly distracting. As soon as I opine in favour of deleting an Estonia-related tendentious page, I have to face harrassment and provocative remarks ("a clearly bad-faith vote", etc) from an indetermine number of Estonian accounts. Briefly put, their strategy is: 1) to make a provocative edit and to wait for my angered reply; 2) to report the perceived "infraction" on the administrators' noticeboard; 3) to repeat the complaint again and again, one after another, so as to make the thread appear as long and beefy as possible. Some of the dormant Estonian accounts instantly resume their activity once they see me cast an Estonia-related vote, prompting me to defend myself on the administrators' noticeboard for hours. I can't spend all of my wikitime debunking allegations of Estonia-based accounts, especially as I have no interest in anything related to Estonia. This relentless campaign of public harassment made me remove all Estonia-related articles from my watchlist.

I infer from this activity that there is simply no way of countering POV-pushing on this scale, involving a dozen accounts, most of them based in the same institution and recruiting friends in real life. You may neutralize a revert warrior or two or three, but not a group of determined users who share the same real-life background and exhibit divergent patterns of behaviour. I really don't think ArbCom may devise a remedy against this sort of disruption. We are thinking of some sort of committee on Eastern Europe-related topics that would include a trusted wikipedian from each nation. Such a committee could take care of mild content arbitration, that is, of determining whether a complaint has some merit before bringing it to the attention of the entire community on WP:ANI, WP:RfAr, or elsewhere. The ArbCom's examination of the proposal is very welcome. -- Ghirla -трёп- 12:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Bishonen

There is no RFC on Digwuren to point the ArbCom to (and it's no wonder people can't face starting one). There is, however, an RFC from June 2007 on User:Petri Krohn, brought and certified (inadequately) by Digwuren, Suva, Alexia Death, and E.J.. This RFC was deleted after 5-6 days, by DrKiernan, for want of good-faith attempts at dispute resolution, but before then it was used for lively discussion of the issues at stake here, especially on the talkpage. As RFCs will, it scrutinized the behavior of both sides, and the accusations of Digwuren et. al. against Petri Krohn throw light on their own practices. Therefore I think it serves quite a bit of the same purpose as an RFC on Digwuren would do. I have temporarily undeleted it so it can be referred to for this purpose. Bishonen | talk 10:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC). reply

Statement by Suva

I myself have stopped editing for all. And am trying to talk us out of the situation. Digwuren is one of the few people who still tries to edit and haven't stood back like most others. Don't know if it's good or bad. But I can fully understand him. One thing is sure though, we can't get anywhere with editwarring, neither are any kinds of blocks going to help much, only upset people more. I myself call all the parties for a debate or just chat in IRC or MSN, maybe we could settle our differences in more direct communication, or atleast find better ways to continue. Suva 07:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Sockpuppet accusations

The main editors, Sander Säde, Digwuren, Alexia Death are all real people and more or less known in estonia IT circles. They are also enough normal people so it is highly unlikely they have any sockpuppets. About meatpuppetry, there seems to be some polarization going on where people align on sides and vote accordingly.

At the same time, if someone says "Police beated peaceful people on streets" most estonians who were on tallinn or viewed the TV live broadcasts would get upset and revert. It doesn't need any meatpuppetry if someone writes blatant lies and people who has seen the truth with his own eyes cares to disagree with him.

Suva 16:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comments by uninvolved Vassyana

I believe that the Piotrus case is sufficient to set bounds for this dispute. It specifically places the articles in question under probation and grants a general amnesty for most users, with a stringent call for immediate compliance with Wikipedia rules. It empowers sysops to deal with continued edit warring, or other behavioral issues, sharply and decisively. Since the checkuser results have been inconclusive, there is no demonstration of substantive attempts to resolve the dispute and bad faith accusations are abundant, this case should probably be rejected. A possible exception may be if the arbitrators wish to specifically examine the behaviour surrounding this dispute or of particular users, to determine if there should be exceptions in this instance to the general amnesty being offered by the Piotrus decision. Otherwise, this case seems well-covered by the proposed decision for the preexisting case. Just some thoughts. *hands out grains of salt* Vassyana 09:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comments of probably involved Alex Bakharev

I want to ask arbitrators to accept the case there are a few reasons why I think it is worth valuable arbitrator's time:

  1. The first reason is personal, User:Erik Jesse alleged that I have improperly used administrative tools in the Estonia-related disputes. Obviously, I want to either clear my name or be desysopped.
  2. The second reason is the allegations by User:FayssalF that Digwuren attempted to hack his computer. I think the allegations are serious and by there natire require some confidentiality. I do not see any other body other than arbcom could either confirm or deny the allegations.
  3. The third reason is Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Digwuren and Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/DLX. A large group of Estonian editors were identified as identical as far as Check User is concerned. It is the third case in my career as an admin then I was able to unblock editors blocked by the results of a "confirmed" check user case. In the previous two cases the condition of the unblocking was that the suspected multiple accounts never edited the same article again. This case is different many of the suspected accounts are clearily belongs to different people. Still there constantly surface a number of new accounts that jump directly into the Revert wars, XfDs, or AN/I discussions and then disappear. I guess the Checkuser of them will be useless. Still some sanity must be kept. Can we decide that in Estonia-related themes any user with less than say 500 edits is discouraged from reversions and !voting? To be fair lets have the same rule for all participants.
  4. The fourth reason is that many admins fail to persuade Digwuren to label good-faith contributions of the established users as vandalism. In the long run it is very annoying. It might help to have some parole on such edit summaries.
  5. The fifth reason is the usual bunch of the problems that many Easter European edit wars have: stalking User:Petri Krohn, absurd near trollish edits on Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, etc. I think application of the Piotrus remedies might be helpful

Digiwuren seems to be a useful editor, who generates some content. I am strongly against preventing him doing good job. On the other hand he is very disruptive and drains energy from many very productive editors. This disruption should be somehow stopped Alex Bakharev 15:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comments of probably involved Grafikm

Digwuren's case is, all political considerations set aside, a clear disruption to a huge sector of Wikipedia. 3RR violations, total NPOV ignorance, personal attacks, trolling, stalking, possible sock/meatpuppetry, you name it, you got it. He's already got a sheet as long as my arm and shows no intention of changing his attitude. Alas, some users support him purely out of ridiculous political reasons and prefer breaking WP rules rather than following them.

Alas as well, it would seem that ANI board and community discussion are not enough anymore to sort such a clear-cut case out. That is why I believe the ArbCom should accept this case. However I must insist that it is infinitely less complicated that Piotrus case, since the Wikipedia rules' violations are so blatant.

Finally, to answer Uninvited's question (even if I'm not Irpen): Digwuren is a classic case of a problematic editor that admins are unwilling, for whatever reasons they might have, to deal with. So the case should IMNSHO be about his behaviour and obviously about puppetry as well. It should also perhaps be about personal attacks made by other users, such as the trolling and offensive statement made in this very case by this Erik Jesse guy. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 17:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by Termer

In my opinion the case here is a politically motivated attempt to shut off the Tartu University WP accounts in general. My opinion is based on the pattern of political attacks against the articles on WP concerning the Baltic countries, Poland etc. Regarding the case against the accused directly: Even though in my opinion he/she could slow down a little while fighting the viewpoints on WP that in my opinion belong to the Radical nationalism in Russia, I appreciate his/her efforts made by protecting the related articles against the attacks.

  • Suggestions to Digwuren. Please consider not to react accordingly even if provoked. Please consider that in the end of the day, it’s not going to make any difference in the real life out there if the POV of your political opponents is going to dominate an article on WP overnight. So, please just take it easy, every contributor to the related articles is valuable on WP and it would be a great loss if an editor who can spell in Greek [13] and has shown competence in the history of his country could be discredited on the basis of the accusations listed above. Thanks-- Termer 09:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC) reply
  • I second Termer's advice. The facts can speak for themselves, there is no need to respond to baiting. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Statement by Balcer

Accusations that reduce one to being just a member of a rogue group of editors are among the most painful one can encounter in Wikipedia. The claim that some users discussed here are just "Tartu based accounts" is an extremely serious one. It should be throughly investigated, and if found to be false, the editors who made it should be severely reprimanded.

Let me also make another point, one that some might easily miss. Estonia is a relatively small country of only 1,3 million people. As such, it has very few universities (see List of universities in Estonia). By far the largest and most significant is the University of Tartu. So, making a reasonable assumption that university students are particularly prone to editing Wikipedia, it would not be surprising at all, and definitely not sinister, if a significant number of Wikipedians in Estonia were somehow connected to that university. It would then follow that what some are trying to paint as an evil conspiracy of a fringe group based in some obscure institution is in fact a completely natural and entirely innocent phenomenon. Balcer 04:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC) reply


Statement of probably non-involved Hillock65

I have to admit off the bat that I am not familiar with User:Digwuren or any other Estonian editors and have made only a couple of edits related to the Baltic or Estonian topics. However, I do know very well the other side of this argument and have dealt with many of them, and not only in this WP. I have been here for almost a year, wrote several articles, one of them was featured in DYK but soon had to abandon this community in part because of the atmosphere that had been created here. No, I don't want to name them cartel USSR forever!, as someone did above, but some of them are definitely well organized and are actively pushing their own agenda and what is most disturbing, harass and intimidate whoever stands in their way. And I certainly am familiar with User:Irpen and User:Ghirlandajo, who not only edit in tandem and pounce on their opponents in tandem, but tend to use the same vocabulary: "Sterile edit-warrior, disruptive edit, edit warrior". Mind you, those are standard accusations against editors whom they don't like. That is only if the editors are more or less established, the new editors almost by default are called sock- and meat-puppets irrespective of whether there is proof or not. That Irpen has a clear agenda at Wikipedia, even he doesn't make any bones about it: To start with, very few editors can claim a greater credit for keeping the Ukrainian nationalism out of the wikipedia articles than myself. -- User:Irpen 22:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC) [14]. And he concedes that he finds nothing wrong with it either [15]. Not that it is wrong to fight against a nationalism per se, but one only has to wonder if he claims the same exploits in fighting the Russian nationalism of his friends, to which Polish, Estonian or Ukrainian editors can testify as well. Irpen does not hesitate to mention his mission in this community and moreover he works on it every day. Recently I have been an object of his attacks and constant complaints at the WP:ANI just for trying to step in a content dispute. Him and his friends have assumed virtual ownership of Eastern European articles and don't tolerate any dissent whatsoever. The Kievan Rus' article is the clear example of how all this works. There is no room for WP:BRD when Irpen and his friends are around, his clear message to myself and User:Balcer who was trying to reason with him at talk page was tantamount to asking to submit the changes for his approval at the talk page before he allows it to be published in the article Talk:Kievan Rus'#Infobox. That was supposed to be the only way to deal with an introduction of an infobox. Mind you, not a substantial change of the story, but an infobox! And his main objections to it were, that modern Ukrainian symbols resemble too much the Rus ones in the infobox (per his mission statement in bold above). It exemplifies the virtual ownership of articles ( WP:OWN) that him and his friends have established in WP. So, I am not at all surprised that Estonian or any other editors might have been subjected to the same kind of treatment. I don't envy the ArbCom's task, as the East European topics in opinions of many have become a virtual mine-field. One of the admins, who thankfully only on the second day had enough courage to deal with Irpen's behaviour explained quite clearly that he was not going to get involved in the East Europen/Former Soviet topics. Given the sorry state of affairs there and viciousness with which opponents are harassed, who can blame him? I hope ArbCom can find a solution at least to rein in the pro-Russian zealots, who prevent other users from participating in the project. -- Hillock65 12:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Pēters J. Vecrumba

If I have the energy, I will go back to find diffs. This is a typical pattern of attack on Wikipedia. Antagonize Eastern European editors to the point they comment on the pro-(official)Russian viewpoints, aka, Stalinist propaganda living on in the post-Soviet era, for example, all Latvians are Nazis, the Baltics invited the Red Army and were never occupied, ad nauseum. Then attack those editors for making those comments. Frankly, after a review of edits, I quite agree with Digwuren's characterization which Irpen cites as the first piece of "evidence" against him.

We see endless attacks on users and articles. Since the attacks on articles never succeed (since the articles are based on fact), the next behavior is to tar and feather editors who stick in the craw of those who advocate some other position.

Of all the editors on the other side of the fence from me, so to speak, I have the most respect for Irpen because he is consistent in his position and his edits. But I am sorry to see him get on the editor-attack bandwagon. The Cold War had found a new home on Wikipedia. The answer is not to punish those who react to provocation, the answer is to punsh the provocateurs. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply

  • P.P.S. My solution is to disallow all arbitrations/mediations/etc. for six months so that all editors on both "sides" of historic "interpretation" of Eastern European events can focus on editing. That includes citing reliable sources, not simply tagging things as POV with no explanation--if you want to tag something, tag specific places with a dated {{fact}} tag. This endless torrent of accusations has to stop. Good, honest, editors with much to contribute have been driven away from editing Eastern European related articles by this sort of activity. And all of those editors have been victims of the camp accusing Eastern Europeans of nationalistic POV-pushing. And why is that? Because they got fed up and disgusted with the POV pushing and slurs that Wikipedia indulges. (Including not admonishing people for comments that the majority of Latvians were all too glad for the opportunity to pick up rifles and kill Jews.) The only way we will return to editing is to enforce a moratorium on these sorts of actions. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply
    • Instead, on Irpen's user page there appear two awards from the editor, Grafikm_fr, who made those (majority of Latvians eager to kill Jews) comments. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Response to Ghirlandajo
  • Ghirlandajo fails to mention that Petri Krohn (despite his excellent editing elsewhere) labels as a "Holocaust denier" anyone who paints Soviet WWII activities as less than liberating and glorious. If that is not POV provocation, I don't know what is.
  • There's a much simpler solution as I've suggested, put a moratorium on these actions and give editors 6 months to put facts where their mouths are.
  • And delete content from Eastern European articles which is not related to the article topic, e.g., Bronze Soldier of Tallinn has become a forum for accusing Estonians of being Nazis--which has NOTHING to do with the statue, the movement of the statue, or the direct reactions to the movement of the statue. There are plenty of appropriate articles already to expand on historical background without making each new article a battleground. The contention that Baltic articles are being turned into hate groups--of what, exactly?--is absurd. If anything, it is the reputation of the Baltic and Eastern European nations that is under attack here on Wikipedia.
  • I welcome a debate with any editor based on reputable sources. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Response to Petri Krohn

  • Regarding "Since then there has been notable improvement in his contributions, but his uncivility and disrespect for WP:NPOV have remained." As constant as the day follows night, one can always count on Petri finding a new (Eastern European) article disparaging Soviet glory and accusing everyone of Holocaust denial. If that is not the grossest violation of WP:NPOV, I don't know what is. If Eastern European editors have taken up the mantle of following Petri's contributions to insure they can counter his accusations of "Holocaust denial" in a timely fashion, that's hardly "stalking" as has been described. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Response to Irpen and Petri Krohn

  • Let us not forget this microcosm: derision by Irpen followed by tagging by Petri (and subsequent invocation of Nazism) regarding the Soviet occupation of Romania (from [16])
How could this pearl have been missed? Soviet occupation of Romania by several users. Enjoy! -- Irpen 08:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I have labeled this as {{totallydisputed}} -- Petri Krohn 01:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
     
...and Petri's classic comment that if you call liberators occupiers, then you can't be told apart from a Nazi [17]. Exactly what is the basis for tolerating this behavior and allowing these editors to attack others with apparent impunity? —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC) reply

Addendum - Irpen smear campaign

  • I see Irpen has wasted no time in furthering his smear campaign agains Digwuren in gross violation of "Discuss article content, not other editors." See his comment on this talk page, describing an article as "created by a notoriously disruptive user" (Digwuren). Irpen now states his charges as objective verified fact, frankly, masquerading as ArbCom et al.--only someone in a position of authority would denounce an editor as they tag their work. This is not about editing, it is about smearing anyone who stands up to anti-Baltic and anti-Eastern European POV pushing done in the guise of defending neutrality and objectivity against rabid "nationalists." —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC) reply

Addendum - Proposal

Let's see, how much time have we already wasted here? We have all seen the charges and counter-charges before, all from the same people, instigated by editors who believe "Soviet" + "occupation" is judgemental at best, Nazist at worst, or, on the other side, by editors who feel the occupation disputing side should produce some sources or shut up.
   I propose that all editor-related RfAs/RfCs/mediations/et al. involving editors with a proven history of participation/edits in Baltic and Eastern European topics be summarily banned for a year, from "both" sides because this is a monumental waste of time which further polarizes both sides leading to ever uglier confrontations.
   I, for one, have pretty much lost all respect I had for Irpen as an editor--as opposed to coming to understand his position better. The good news is that I still feel this is a loss. The bad news is that after a month or so more of this, I will feel absolutely no sense of loss at all. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC) reply

Comment by Piotrus

I'll keep it short since others (Martintg, Termer, Balcer, Hillock65, Pēters J. Vecrumba), whose views I endorse, already said most of what needed to be said.

Yes, Digwuren lost a temper a few times - and paid the price. His behaviour doesn't seem to be more disrupive then that of many other users; if he has a fault it would be that of concentraiting on discussions, not content; I'd strongly advise him to start building an encyclopdia - this project is not a discussion forum. That said, since my ArbCom decided that such behavior is acceptable, Diwurgen is a saint by comparison in any case...

There is however another aspect of this ArbCom that deserves our attention: the editors whose POVs were challenged by Diwurgen, the same editors who launched this ArbCom and/or are active in building the case against him, trying not only to portray a slightly-problematic editor as a major troll, but apparently arguing - with no serious evidence - that there is either an entire cabal or some nefarious puppetmaster working against them. I wonder in how many ANI threads, DR proceedings and ArbComs certain editors must be mentioned, again and again, until somebody realizes they are one of the routes of our problem? Unfortunatly, considering their activity and knowledge of wikilawyering, I am afraid that the answer is: "in too many".--  Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus |  talk  01:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC) reply

In response to The Uninvited Co.'s query

What I would like the arbitration committee to do in this case is examine the evidence presented regarding all editors involved in editing Estonian-Russian related articles, such as Rein Lang (which is what has drawn me to this case). -- Deskana (talk) 21:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC) reply

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction

I request clarification of this Remedy. El C applied two blocks [18], [19], and over 24 hours later Thatcher131 places a notice of restriction [20]. Is the action of these two admins against the spirit of this particular remedy in that the notice of restriction should be applied first as a warning to that editor that any further violation may invoke an enforcement block, the intent being that the editor is given fair opportunity and chance to cease that particular behaviour? My concern is that the action of an over zealous admin may have driven a very productive editor away [21]. Martintg ( talk) 11:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Minor note: What did you expect when this botched ArbCom ended? I mean, here we are, with El_C, admin and Che Guevara (Communist) wannabe considered "uninvolved" when the whole issue here is not "Eastern Europe", but the heritage of Communism and Soviet Russian occupation. Not to mention that you have the same definition of the "conflict area" in the recent Anonimu ArbCom. Just take a look who is defending the Communist and Soviet POV-pusher User:Anonimu. It's the "uninvolved" Communist User:El_C and the Russian User:Irpen. Miraculous, isn't it. :) Dpotop ( talk) 12:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
In this case the block was issued because of this one single comment on a user's talk page [22], yet there is seemingly no action when grossly more disruptive behaviour is brought to light here Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#Dr._Dan_inflaming_Eastern_European_topics Martintg ( talk) 19:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Action has finally been taken. Martintg ( talk) 23:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The intent of the notice (not "warning") clause was to ensure that parties subject to sanctions would be informed of the existence of the general restriction prior to it being applied to them. Editors obviously aware of the restriction—notably, the parties to the case—are not meant to receive additional notifications. Kirill 13:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Kirill, so you are basically saying that the meaning of this remedy is that all and every single editor of EE topics, is already subject to this general restriction? So why is it worded "may be made subject to an editing restriction" if this is the case. So as editors of EE topics, we either all are subject to this editing restriction, or we all may be subject to the editing restriction given the appropriate notice, which is it? Most confusing. Should not every single editor of EE articles be now notified on their talk page that they are all subject to this general editing restriction? This need to be clarified. Martintg ( talk) 19:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The remedy says that if someone is uncivil, makes personal attacks, or assumed bad faith, then an administrator may make them the subject of an editing restriction (ie, a block). How is that confusing? Obviously not everyone is currently affected by such a restriction, as not everyone is blocked. Kirill already answered your question regarding notification: those that are unaware should be notified, those that are already aware need not be. -- Deskana (talk) 19:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Okay, thanks for the clarification. So who should start with this notification process, I suspect that there are a lot of regular EE editors who may not be aware of this General Restriction. I suppose this notification should be similar to this User_talk:Sander_Säde#Notice_of_editing_restrictions, which warns "future violations of the provisions of this warning are subject to blocking". Martintg ( talk) 20:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply

I'm sorry Deskana, I am still confused by this template {{subst:Digwuren enforcement}}, which you and Kirill must admit is structured as a warning notice, which must be logged in the appropriate place to take effect, according to the text below:

Notice of editing restrictions

Notice: Under the terms of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren, any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. Should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he or she may be blocked for up to a week for each violation, and up to a month for each violation after the fifth. This restriction is effective on any editor following notice placed on his or her talk page. This notice is now given to you, and future violations of the provisions of this warning are subject to blocking.

Note: This notice is not effective unless given by an administrator and logged here.


I am not wiki-lawyering here, I just think it is necessary to clarify this mechanism for the benefit of not only us editors at the coal face, but also the admins who have to administer this. Let's have some clarity here to ensure the smooth running of Wikipedia, that is all I ask. Martintg ( talk) 23:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Kirill, Deskana, not wanting to labour the issue, but there is a distinction between an editing restriction and a block, is there not? You both seem to be implying that that they are the same thing, the block is the editing restriction. But this is at odds with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Enforcement_by_block: "Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, they may be briefly blocked", an explicit distinction which Kirill himself drafted. I mean, there are all sorts of general editing restrictions in force, 3RR being one for example. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this suppose to operate thus:

  1. Misbehaviour -> Editing restriction placed via notice on user talk page and logged
  2. Further misbehaviour -> block applied and logged.

I know admins are encouraged to ignore the rules, but we do need clarification here before some over zealous admins begin driving good people off the project for the slightest infraction, as in the case of Wikipedia:WikiProject_Estonia coordinator User:Sander Säde. Martintg ( talk) 04:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Strictly speaking, you're correct. Keep in mind, though, that the main intent of the notification requirement is not to serve as a warning, per se; but, rather, to make sure that editors unaware of the existence of this remedy would not find themselves blocked without finding out about it beforehand. When the editor in question, having been a party to the actual case, is already well aware of the need to conduct themselves civilly, we're not going to crack down on admins for forgetting some of the paperwork. To be quite honest, anyone involved in the case has no excuse for being uncivil at this point; I think that we made it very clear that the poor behavior seen in this area is not acceptable. Kirill 05:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Fair enough. I'm not looking to have an admin flogged for forgotten paperwork, just clarification and guidance for the benefit of editors and admins alike, because this does apply to the entire Eastern Europe, broadly defined. It must be noted that User:Sander Säde did subsequently apologise in his block review request.
How ever it appears that in his exuberance User:El_C used this remedy (which is aimed at incivility) for blocking User:Alexia Death for basically revert warring [23]. The revert warring was over this comment [24], and to interpret this as incivility is an asumption of bad faith. In fact this comment is a salute to Ghirla for the tough battles of the past with well wishes for the future. Using this remedy for edit warring is an inappropriate, so therefore I request that User:Alexia Death's logging of her enforcement block and associated notification log be removed from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Enforcement_2. Martintg ( talk) 05:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
  • Could you, Kirill, please comment on the fact that logging this block as enforcement block happened at least in my case 2 hours after the fact. Is this appropriate? See also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Daniel_Case. If logging blocks is allowed with this much delay it opens up venues for block laundry. I propose that blocks that are made as enforcement blocks must be logged immediately.-- Alexia Death the Grey ( talk) 06:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
This was apparently a case of forgotten "paperwork". Kirill has confirmed that for those who were not a party to the original case 1. Misbehaviour -> Editing restriction placed via notice on user talk page and logged, 2. Further misbehaviour -> block applied and logged. For those who were a party: both applied at the same time. Martintg ( talk) 06:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Yes, there seems to have been a fair amount of confusion regarding what exactly the remedy was. For future use, I've created Wikipedia:General sanctions to keep track of these wide-area remedies. I'd appreciate it if people could leave links to it where appropriate. Kirill 06:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
I am not talking about the notice. I was part of the case and I acknowledge it to be unnecessary. I talking about logging the block itself and requesting comment on delay in logging it as an enforcement block, witch I personally doubt it was.-- Alexia Death the Grey ( talk) 09:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Wikipedia:General sanctions sounds like a good idea. I have taken the liberty to add the second Armenia-Azerbaijan case (with some rewording, for consistency) to it. I submit it to your and other members of the Committee's approval. El_C 09:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Good catch, but keeping the actual wording is probably the better approach, to reduce potential confusion. Kirill 14:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Thanks, Kirill. Please see my refractored comment here. El_C 14:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Thanks Kirill, one more clarification needed on applicability. This remedy is only applicable to EE topics right? I mean if it happens in areas outside EE, for example, an editor gets into a discussion with an admin on another admin's talk page and they start revert warring over the editor's comment "So these are "Durova-style" rules! LOL. I cant take Wikipedia seriously any more. This is ridiculous!", [25], [26], [27], [28], and rightly or wrongly that admin ends up blocking this editor as a result [29] (I've searched and searched but cannot find this alleged inflammatory comment "you guys could do with little sunshine in your lives"), is it appropriate that this block be logged under this particular remedy? Martintg ( talk) 11:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Hmm. The remedy, as written, is applicable to any editor working on EE topics, but places no limitations on where the actual incivility would need to occur. Given that a large part of the past problem was EE editors sniping at each other on user talk pages, noticeboards, etc. (often on topics unrelated to EE, but merely continuing personal fights that had started on EE matters months or years before), I think it's appropriate that editors subject to this remedy need to watch their behavior generally, not only on article talk pages or when directly engaged in article disputes.
(The comment is made here, incidentally.) Kirill 14:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC) reply
While it is true that the initial statement by Alexia on Ghirla's talk page (do we assume good or bad faith here?) was the trigger, it quickly descended into a personal conflict between Alexia and User:El_C spanning across several user's talk pages. I don't believe that Alexia or User:El_C have had any personal fights in the past related to EE. By no means was User:El_C blocking action uncontroversial as another admin overturned the un-noticed block (forgotten paperwork) as evidenced here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Daniel Case. User:El_C clearly states that the main reason for the block was for this subsequent dispute, not the original triggering event: [30]. Of course the irony here is that User:El_C himself was as much a contributor due to his own combative and inflamatory approach.
In what way inflammatory you may ask? People like us Kirill, who were brought up in comfortable USA or Australia where images of Che may be considered mere t-shirt art, need to be sensitive to the fact that many people suffered under communist rule in Eastern Europe. For example I read that in the Baltic states, almost everyone had some family member who was deported or otherwise repressed. It touched everyone. So when an admin with a " vanity page" consisting of figures associated with communist oppression and terrorism wades into a dispute involving Eastern Europe, not only is this highly provocative, but alarm bells start ringing as to the impartiality of this admin. This was the substance of this dispute that lead to Alexia's block. Would you trust the judgement of an admin with images of Adolf Hitler on their user page wading in and handing out blocks in a dispute regarding the Holocaust? This is same admin who saw no problem with the behaviour of the recently banned Anonimu, uncivilly branding those who brought the complaint as "ethno-nationalist editors", and exhibited continued assumption of bad faith against the unblocking admin in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Daniel Case. Common sense dictates that controversial admins of questionable partiality should not be involved resolution of EE disputes, particular given the extra powers afforded by this remedy.
Anyway, thanks again for your clarifications. Rather than continuing on here, I'll be putting together a case to address this issue of involved admins and will putting it before the Committee in due course for consideration. Cheers. Martintg ( talk) 00:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
These uninhibited attacks by this user, who feels it necessary to link to my user page five times in a single five-sentence paragraph, are nothing more than cheap theatrics. Of course, I am far from being a supporter of the Social imperialist Eastern European caricature-communist regimes, and of course I saw a problem with the the behaviour of Anonimu (still, he was ruthlessly attacked, too; just the Bonparate front, tens of socks). I already responded to many of these other distortions elsewhere at length. El_C 14:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
I cite: "far from being a supporter of the Social imperialist Eastern European caricature-communist regimes". Hm, the photo of Lenin on your page seems to say something else. In case you don't know, it was him who presided the imperialistic occupation of Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaidjan by the USSR. But imperialism was not his worst deed: He and his buddies created the Cheka and the widespread famine, and the politicide, a.s.o. Dpotop ( talk) 15:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
In conclusion, don't pretend to be an honest broker on these subjects. Dpotop ( talk) 15:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
In case you don't know. I have long ago ceased to respond to the crude, intentionally-insulting demagoguery of Dpotop. El_C 16:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
My formulation was based on an assumption of good faith from your part. Otherwise, I can't see how you could state on one side that you don't support imperialist communists, and on the other side support Lenin. Dpotop ( talk) 16:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
I also believe that such accusations of "demagoguery", "combativeness", a.s.o. would have ended in a block for any other Wikipedia users. It's sad to see that some editors (you, for instance) can do whatever they want with impunity. Dpotop ( talk) 16:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Above, he calls me he a wannabe, a few days ago he calls me a hypocrite. It's all standard practice for Dpotop. El_C 16:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Here's a suggestion to Dpotop. Why dosen't he make a few edits that are not related to targeting myself or reverting Eastern European articles. It'd go along way toward establishing calm on these two unrelated fronts. El_C 16:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The original question has been asked and answered. In the case of Alexia Death, the formal notice I placed on her talk page was not required as she was a listed party to the case and was informed of the decision at the time it closed. Editors who were not parties to the case should be notified about the editing restrictions before any enforcement action is taken pursuant to those remedies. Are there any points that need additional clarification? Thatcher131 16:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Nothing that doesn't involve targeting me, I'm sure. El_C 16:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Hang on a moment, I just looked at the Case again, and civility restrictions 1 Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Alexia_Death_restricted and 10 Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Sander_S.C3.A4de_restricted were never adopted, so I don't think El_C was correct in blocking them with enforcement blocks. At most he should have placed the notice of general restriction first. Surely if ArbCom wanted the parties to be blocked without further notice as you suggest Thatcher131, they would have passed those remedies. Martintg ( talk) 21:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Lack of ArbCom action does not condone bad behavior nor prevent admins from dealing with bad behavior through the normal means. Since these folks were party to this case, they were well aware of the general restrictions, so there was no need for further notification. The fact that they have been given additional notification subsequently is a courtesy intended to help them comply. - Jehochman Talk 21:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
(ec) Note JamesF's vote in opposition, "oppose in favor of the general restriction." As the general restriction applies to all parties upon notice, and the closing clerk notified both Alexia [31] and Sander [32], then the notification requirement has been met. I applied the warning template as a formality and because Sander was listed as a party in the case opening, but he clearly was considered a party when the case closed, as noted on the proposed decision page and as demonstrated by Cbrown's notification. Thatcher131 21:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
And FloNight in support of the general restriction said "I prefer this to keep newer users from gaining the upper hand by bashing our established editors over the head with our decision at the time these established users are trying to adjust their conduct to match our remedies." Didn't the thing that FloNight wanted to avoid just happen in this case, Alexia and Sander were bashed over the head without a chance to adjust by being notified first according to remedy 11? Martintg ( talk) 22:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Also, the notices you linked were provided at the conclusion of the case and only mentioned Remedies 2, 5 and 10. There was no mention of Remedy 11 in that notice. I am particularly concerned about the other Involved Parties, User:Erik Jesse, User:3 Löwi and User:Klamber, who were offline long before the case even started, never participated in the case, and continue to be offline to this day, returning some time in the future and being clobbered over the head without a chance to adjust. Martintg ( talk) 22:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The general restriction is indeed linked in that notice. Thatcher131 23:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Indeed you are correct, I mis-read the notice. However what of FloNight's concern and the issue of the three involved parties I mentioned being potentially bashed over the head without being given a chance to adjust? It's pretty tough on them, isn't it? No finding of fact against them, yet they have this threat of instant block hanging over their heads. Martintg ( talk) 23:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC) reply
As I read Flo's comment to mean that she does not want new unnamed editors to have the upper hand on older editors named in specific remedies, hence the general remedy. (Although you are welcome to ask her specifically.) Regarding inactive editors, I can only say that I would hope that they read their talk pages (and indeed, they have an obligation to follow up on an Arbitration case naming them that was pending when they last edited), but even so I personally would issue another warning before issuing blocks. And in any case, the initial blocks are meant to be brief, and only escalate on repeated violations. If you wish to specifically exempt these editors you will need Arbcom to vote a motion modifying the decision. Thatcher131 00:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC) reply
I'm sure you would personally issue them with a warning, but other admins may not. As for your stated obligation that they should follow up any ArbCom case pending since their last edit, the fact is they have been off line long long before this case was ever requested, let alone pending. I have no idea why they were even listed as involved parties, apart from their ethnictiy. It would be bit of a nasty surprise if they ever return to find this notice on their talk page related to a case that they never participated in let alone a finding of fact made against them. And yet they have been singled out for no other reason that they happen to live in Estonia and subjected to harser regime than you or me, we get a second chance because we get a notice only after the first infraction, and they get none. Don't you find this disquieting?
So I ask ArbCom to amend the case such that their names are struck from the list of involved parties and thus the notices removed from their talk pages. In fact a motion to this effect Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Workshop#Motion_to_strike_3_L.C3.B6wi_and_Klamber_from_the_list_of_parties was made during the case and seconded by the clerk User:Cbrown1023 at the time, but may have been overlooked in the general noise of the Workshop page. Martintg ( talk) 00:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC) reply


Requested motions to /Digwuren

I request that the Committee consider the following motions. It is not clear where request for motions in a prior cases ought be placed, so could the clerks move this to the right spot if this is not it. Thanks. Martintg ( talk) 18:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Clerk note: I have moved these requests to the "requests for clarifications" section as probably the best place for them. I agree with Marting that it is not clear from the instructions where a request for relief from a prior decision should be posted. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC) reply

The Committee will be discussing these motions soon-ish. They have move toward the top of our To-do-list. FloNight ( talk) 22:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Suspension of bans for both User:Digwuren and User:Petri Krohn

It is now obvious, after an initial bit of confusion and subsequent clarification, that the remedy 11 Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction will be most effective in combating incivility, which was the core issue of this case. No one was calling for year long bans for either party in the original case, in fact most involved and uninvolved were explicitly against any ban, as Alex Bakharev succinctly argued here and seconded by many others including Geogre and Biophys in Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Remedies_are_too_harsh. Note too that Digwuren did make a reflective and conciliatory statement aplogising to those he had wronged and forgiving those who had wronged him Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Proposed_decision#Statement_by_Digwuren. Compare this to the recently banned Anonimu, where there was a clear concensus for a ban and he was defiant and un-remorseful to the end.

While a year is a long time, and shortening it may be useful, I'd like to see those users expressing remorse, telling us what they have learned and promising not to continue behavior that led to their ban before any shortening or suspension of a ban is considered.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC) reply

I see no point in banning these editors, especially Petri, who unlike Digwuren, even sincerely apologized long before the case and was still punished for his actions taken prior to the apology, unlike Digwuren who continued to create "occupation" badwagons, revert war and bait contributors even while his arbitration was ongoing. Still, as far as Digwuren is concerned, I neither proposed nor supported a year-long ban. I have a very thick skin towards incivility and this aspect of his conduct did not bother me much. But if he is unblocked, he must be on the short leash regarding the number of reverts and coatracking.

Overall, I think that case needs a new hearing in light of how editors see it now in the retrospect and by the hopefully wisened up ArbCom as well. Also, there were several new developments, chiefly, editors using the "editing restrictions" to blockshop and vigorously "investigate" each other. This whole matter needs a fresh look, perhaps by a renewed Arbcom after the election which is almost over.

I would object to selective reversals of the original decision. The case was handled badly in a hands-off-by-ArbCom-type way during the entire precedings. Selective return of Digwuren and doing nothing else would just make matters worse. Rehashing that decision overall may be a good thing and hearing all parties in an orderly way by the arbitrators who actually listned and engage would be a good thing though. -- Irpen 19:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC) reply

I think most of the involved parties had findings of fact regarding revert warring. The differentiating aspect for Digwuren and Petri Krohn was using Wikipedia as a battleground. Note that the root cause of this battle was the Bronze soldier controversy, which has now largely resolved itself, the threat for further battling has significantly diminished. Also given that bans are in principle intended to stop further damage to Wikipedia, rather for retribution and punishment for its own sake, and they have already served some months of this ban, I see no reason to continue this ban, particularly since there seems a concensus against a ban in the first place, the parties have shown remorse as I have linked above and the Bronze soldier issues have dissipated. I am not asking for selective reversals, just a suspension. Martintg ( talk) 20:30, 15 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Indeed, I would support suspension of the ban of Digwuren and Petri. It would make sense to match it with some sort of the revert parole and/or topic bans Alex Bakharev ( talk) 02:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC) reply
I have to re-confirm my opinion since it has been mentioned above. Yes, I support the suspension of the ban of Digwuren and Petri since they are highly productive editors. The ban could be replaced by a restriction on the number of reverts per week if necessary. Biophys ( talk) 20:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Strike User:Erik Jesse, User:3 Löwi and User:Klamber from the Involved parties list

These people were offline long before the case even started, never participated in the case, and continue to be offline to this day. No or little evidence was presented against them and no finding of fact either. In fact they had absolutely no involvement in the issues of this case and were only mentioned because they were included in an earlier checkuser case. Note however it is a finding of fact that Petri Krohn used Wikipedia as a battleground, and the checkuser case against these and other Estonian users was a part of that warfare. We don't want to perpetuate this wrong against these three editors.

Therefore I ask ArbCom to amend the case such that their names are struck from the list of involved parties and thus the notices removed from their talk pages. In fact I made a similar motion to this effect Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren/Workshop#Motion_to_strike_3_L.C3.B6wi_and_Klamber_from_the_list_of_parties during the case and it was seconded by the clerk Cbrown1023 at the time. I know it is a minor issue, but it is an important gesture that ArbCom ought to do to further heal the hurts and encourage them to return, particularly User:3 Löwi who has been an editor of good standing since 2005.

Expand definition of "uninvolved admin" in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction

The principle of involved admins not being permitted to issue blocks is founded on the issue of conflict of interest and that trust should be maintained in the impartiality of the blocking admin. Generally "involved" means personal involvement in the immediate issue or article. However, given that the span of this general restriction covers all of Eastern Europe, and the principle that trust should be maintained in the blocking admin's impartiality, and that political issues (the role of the Soviet Union and communism) is the basis for much of the conflict on Eastern Europe; the definition of "involved" should be expanded for this remedy to include admins with overt and obvious political view points or past significant involvment in content disputes within Eastern Europe

The recent episode concerning blocks issued by El_C illustrates this problem. An admin with a " vanity page" consisting of figures associated with communist oppression and terrorism wades into a dispute involving Eastern Europe, not only is this highly provocative, but alarm bells start ringing as to the impartiality of this admin. Note that this is same admin saw no problem with the behaviour of the recently banned Anonimu, uncivilly branding those who brought the complaint as "ethno-nationalist editors". This fact of questionable impartiality and lack of trust only served to inflame the situation resulting a commited and significant editor and wikiproject coordinator Sander Säde to leave the project.

While one must endeavour to assume good faith, never the less, there would be an issue of trust in the judgement of an admin if, to illustrate with an example, they had a vanity page consisting of images of Osama bin Ladin and Hezbollah on their user page wading in and handing out blocks in a dispute regarding Israeli related topic. Common sense dictates that controversial admins of questionable partiality should not be involved enforcing this remedy.

Good point, but it all boils down to the issue of anonymity. El C at least declares some of his POV on his user page. I, for example, declare quite a few more things. Would you prefer to trust a user who declares nothing? How can we be sure if such declarations are truthful, and not ironic or simply deceptive? Looking back at the Essjay controversy I still think all admins should be required to reveal their identity, education, and POVs... but I am well aware this will not fly. I think "uninvolved admin" should be one that is accepted by the parties; but of course that creates a possibility for the parties to evade judgment by refusing to accept any admin as uninvolved. Perhaps to avoid that but deal with the problem you outlined, we should have a procedure parties can lodge complains about admin's involvement, where this could be reviewed by other admins and if involvement is determined (something like CoI), the admin's action is reverted and warning issued? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC) reply
Note that I am one of the most sought-after admins by both the Armenian and Azerbaijani factions. They never cared what is on my user page, they just care that I'm fair, and indeed I have such a record dating back years. Conversely, I've had pro-Palestinian groups or extreme-right Europeans refuse to have me as an uninvolved admin because I am fluent in Hebrew, requests which I always denied. El_C 15:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC) reply
In this particluar case, I fear the problem isn't actual conflict of interest so much as perceived lack of impartiality. While people knowing El_C may very well feel quite comfortable that he does not let his political leanings influence his judgment, the fact that they are very visible nonetheless will give the impression that he might be siding with one side of a debate, or "overcompensate" for the other. This does not mean that other editors with less visible politics would do a better job, but giving such ammo for complaints is probably a relatively bad idea. —  Coren  (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC) reply
It's important to assume good faith. You are not calling to ban people who exhibit the flag of Israel on their userpage from admin actions on Israeli-Palestinian issue, so why this? Both Azerbaijan and Armenia were former Soviet republics, why are editors there acting differently than editors here? The reason, I think, has more to do with a perceived [33] personal dispute than political (see for example the attempt by the user above to delete Bishzilla (thread)). Anyway, I would gladly delete my user page, but such ruling need to be applied consistently, anticommunism should not be getting a priority because of easy targets. El_C 20:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC) reply
I tried to specifically make the point that I didn't feel your impartiality was at issue, and I'm sorry if you understood this differently. My point is that perception is the key here and that leaving the enforcement to another admin would not be so much more trouble. And, personally, yes I would expect someone who displayed an Israeli flag on their userpage to also avoid admin action in Israeli-Palestinian issue — not because I think them unable to act fairly and impartially, but because the appearance of impropriety is a probable source of heat. —  Coren  (talk) 23:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC) reply
It's a trap, but I'll answer. Appearances do count (for example, I never edited the Communism article even once), but this is far from it. What about someone displaying the American flag in relation to articles about 911 or modern Iraq? Some would have me cease enforcing Armenia-Azerbaijan dispute which I have been doing for years, even though both factions seek this, due to abstract appearance of political correctness. It's a red herring (pun intended), anyway; Wikipedia is not a free-for-all. [34] El_C 02:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC) reply
I support the proposal by Piotrus to have a review procedure for such cases. The reviewrs have to decide if the blocking admin is indeed an impartial side. If there are any doubts about that, the block should be lifted immediately. Biophys ( talk) 20:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Appeal against notice to ban for incivility by user Mrg3105

The action was taken under the premise of:
General restriction

11) Any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below. Before the restriction shall come into effect for a particular editor, that editor shall be given an official notice of it with a link to this decision.

I would like to appeal against this action and the finding of my incivility based on the following points:

1. My incivility was never explicitly stated by the administrator who imposed it despite a request to do so. Another administrator (Thatcher) simply suggesting the need for Dispute resolution, without considering that a 'request to move' is a form of dispute resolution.

2. Under some circumstances incivility is justified such as when the Wikipedia user is found to be using methods of argument during a discussion which are easily likened to abuse of logic, lying or propaganda, all of which contradict Wikipedia NPOV policy. The ruling is therefore largely the administrator's POV who may be unaware of the behaviour of the other party.

3. In order for the 'personal attack' to be personal, a person needs to be explicitly named. Since no such person was named in the cited evidence against me, the attack could only have been directed at the line of argument offered by the opposers of the 'proposal to move', which was in part lacking in supporting evidence, and therefore deceptive. In fact the proposition that I directed a personal attack contradicts my personal values that "one talks about ideas and not people"

4. If I am accused of assumptions of bad faith, then I submit that the action of the other party was in fact the precursor of the 'request for move' as a means of remedies in equity due to my inability to assume good faith given the action of renaming the article in the first place, which, without discussion, was tantamount to negation of good faith as per Wikipedia's policy that "Bad faith editing can include deliberate disruption just to prove a point, playing games with policies, and vandalism". In this case the points being attempted to be proven are that: a) the article is focused on places in the event name and not on the historical event itself, and b) that Romanian and European Union naming policy over-rides that of WP:UE, WP:MILMOS#NAME, and WP:ROR, for which I can find no evidence in Wikipedia policy.

5. That in any case, I could not be warned under the Digwuren enforcement as an "editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe" since the article is intended to be an NPOV description of of a military operation by an armed force which at one time could be claimed to have been present in Europe, Asia, Africa, the Pacific Ocean and the Arctic. It is not a topic related to Eastern Europe despite being situated in Eastern Europe in the same way that all discussion of Architecture will inevitably include Eastern Europe. This would require similar enforcements to be enacted every time any editor chose to document operations by the Soviet Army in any of these global regions should anyone fund them controversial, or any topic that might include Eastern Europe, which is a large majority of Wikipedia content.

I look forward to my user name being cleared of these accusations.

Thank you -- mrg3105 mrg3105 00:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Ok, now what happens to the undiscussed arbitrary renaming of the historically non-extant Battle of Romania into the non- WP:UE, non- WP:MILMOS#NAME, and non- WP:ROR compliant Iaşi-Chişinău Offensive, and the subsequent denial of the RM based on arguments that did not apply to the reasons given for the RM?-- mrg3105 mrg3105 01:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: Digwuren

Statement by Moreschi

I'm requesting clarification as regards this FoF and this remedy. I've just blocked said user, RJ CG ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for edit-warring yet again. Time for the "summary bans" bit to be enforced? Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 23:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Oh, that reminds me: if an arbitrator/checkuser with knowledge of the Estonian sock stable could figure out who on earth 84.50.127.105 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), also blocked for his part in the edit-war, actually is, this might be helpful. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 23:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Statement by User:Martintg

I see that Kirill is wishing to apply additional remedies from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles. What's the scope? I don't think it is necessary in Estonia related articles, there has hardly been any activity, let alone disputes, with only User:RJ CG popping his head in briefly after a long break before being promptly blocked for two weeks for 3RR. As I said previously, Wikiproject Estonia has been chilled to the bone with most of the editors leaving the project, with no significant articles created or expanded, except for football it seems. I suppose if you are going to turn the screws even tighter, how about also adding:

  • The applicable scope: Eastern Europe broadly defined, or just Estonia related articles?
  • The definition of uninvolved admin for enforcement from that case as well Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Uninvolved_administrators
  • Lifting of the ban for Digwuren. Nobody from either side wanted year long bans. Given Digwuren only joined around April 2007, had not been previously subjected any other genuine dispute resolution attempts before being taken to ArbCom (obviously Irpen's opinions carry a lot of weight with ArbCom), this newbie certainly has been bitten hard. We need at least one person from Estonia who can speak the language and willing to contribute meaningfully to articles.

Thanks. Martintg ( talk) 06:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Statement by User:Biophys

Unlike Israeli-Palestinian conflict, "Eastern European subjects" are not clearly defined. Does this include every Russia-related topic, like Russia-China relations or Soviet intelligence operations in the United States? If we want to follow the "Israeli-Palestinian" remedy, the "conflict area" should be clearly defined, say "Russian-Polish" or "Russian-Estonian" conflicts. Anything that is not area of conflict (e.g. articles on Russian-Turkish subjects or internal Russian affairs) do not belong there. Could you please clarify which subjects are covered? Biophys ( talk) 22:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC) reply

So, I would highly appreciate any answer. ArbCom members are votiong below, but about what? Biophys ( talk)

Statement by User:Vecrumba

I would like to know better what's being defined as the scope of applicability and what, if any, specific history of warnings is being proposed as moving sanctions to the "next level." My concern is that as the scope is expanded, "uninvolved" will also extend to "uninformed"--there has to be substantial awareness of editors' past histories in order to draw an objective judgement. If you just go by who accuses whom in the latest trail, it's quite possible that all that happens is a blanket conviction of the guilty and the innocent--if you come in on a fight, how do you know who started it? The notion that someone who is attacked is just going to sit and smile and assume good faith is only good for one round of edits; if an editor persists in behavior that is taken as an attack, the attacked editor(s) will respond and should not be held equally to blame for any escalation. — PētersV ( talk) 00:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

I would suggest a code of etiquette. I have debated (civilly) paid propaganda pushers by sticking to sources, so I know it is possible not to escalate into conflict. What has worked is...
  • Always stick to what a source says. This is not as simple as it sounds, I've had to buy $150 sources (not even available at the library) just to prove they were being quoted correctly, literally, but being grossly misrepresented to push a patently false POV.
  • Corollary: Article content should be based on what sources say, not on what editors interpret sources to say. Editors have summarized content coming to different conclusions regarding content in characterizing reputable sources which differ from the authors' own summaries appearing within those self-same materials.
  • Corollary: Use the same terminology in the article as in reputable sources. For example, neither embellish nor dilute words such as "occupied." That "occupy" can be taken to be "accusatory" is irrelevant, if it is what the reputable source uses, that is what the Wikipedia article uses.
  • Discuss any major changes prior to making them, whether additions, modifications, or deletions. If consensus is not reached, the change is not made. If consensus is reached, then changes are implemented. Delete first, discuss later (in the area of articles where there is significant polarization of position or initial "disapprovals" are lodged by historically known antagonists) is looked upon as an act of bad faith, that is, preemptive removal of content without discussion or consensus is viewed as edit warring. — PētersV ( talk) 22:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Statement by User:Relata refero

I have recently stumbled across Denial of the Holodomor, which I discovered while cleaning up Historical revisionism, and am startled by the level of hostility and accusations of bad faith that seem to be acceptable in this area, even towards those manifestly uninvolved. I would like some firm statements adjuring editors to read and follow WP:OR and WP:AGF, as well as some sense that adminstrators will be able to evaluate those who are 'involved' accurately, and that there will be some appealing of that judgment. Relata refero ( talk) 18:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

I'd like to add that I assume that the area of "conflict" is all those articles that have as their subjects the history and current status of the relations between Russia and the former states of the USSR/Warsaw Pact. Relata refero ( talk) 18:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply
I'd mention regarding Denial of the Holodomor that several editors including myself were reprimanded when Gatoclass made some assertions which led to a degenerating spiral we could not escape from. All participants were "put on the list" by Thatcher. I disagreed with Thatcher's conclusion regarding my personal editorial conduct, however, I still prefer that to the alternative.
  You're only coming to the discussion there on what I think is its third round. I completely agree that the general "divide" is along versions of history which echo Sovietism and versions by the countries formerly subjugated under Sovietism. I say "versions" because basic facts are often in dispute, they are not "views" or "POVs" regarding a common set of facts or circumstances. — PētersV ( talk) 19:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

It must be said that "stumbled across Denial of the Holodomor" consisted of Relata refero initially deleting huge sections of referenced content on February 12th from that article without first discussing the issues or obtaining consensus on the talk page. Not the best way to introduce one self to the other editors of any article, however Relata refero's edit history only goes back to October 11, 2007, so perhaps it was inexperience. Despite this, the other editors have been exceedingly patient and civil with him/her. Martintg ( talk) 20:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

See what I mean?
Yes, the article's one of the worst imaginable, and I acted on WP:BRD. About "exceedingly patient and civil"... wow. What a mess EE articles must be if someone thinks that was "exceedingly patient and civil". Strengthens the case for stringent restrictions, I'd say? Relata refero ( talk) 20:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply
Perhaps we can continue on the article page. It's only the "worst imaginable" partly because (I believe) you believe it is something in scope which it is not, so perhaps we can keep disparaging Q.E.D. remarks to article talk where editors would expect to find them to comment on them. :-) Was there bolding I missed? PētersV ( talk) 22:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply
(cross posted with additions) Mass deletion of EE content is most typically (historically) associated with "I don't like it" edit wars, so I would ask editors to be sensitive to that and discuss prior to deletion, not delete as an act of improvement and then (appear to deign to) discuss. Because of past experiences, that sort of editorial conduct is looked upon as not acting in good faith. Generally speaking, EE article etiquette is to discuss major changes, additions, and deletions prior; to never impose what is written elsewhere in Wikipedia as a "model" or "standard" but to stick to sources, etc. — PētersV ( talk) 22:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply
Even unreliable ones...
We shouldn't make excuses for departures from core Wikipedia policies, but look for ways to enforce them. Relata refero ( talk) 23:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

  • Closed and archived 14:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC), with no new votes or discussion in 20 days. 14:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

I have read this but am recusing from commenting due to my involvement in that case. I will ask the others to look over this. -- Deskana (talk) 10:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC) reply

In this case, comment is probably best given in the first instance by arbitrators who were active when that case was being heard. Deferring to othes to clarify the above. FT2 ( Talk |  email) 23:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC) reply

The "summary bans" bit predates some of the more useful methods we've developed since then; I'd prefer not to funnel everything through a bottleneck by having the Committee do everything itself, but rather to take the standard approach we've used for other conflict areas recently. See my motion below. Kirill 13:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC) reply

I am recusing myself due to my prior involvement as an administrator. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 04:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC) reply

Proposed motions and voting

For this motion, there are 14 active Arbitrators, so 8 votes are a majority.

Clerk note Having been left open for voting for 30 days and not being approved by a majority of Arbitrators, the motion is rejected. Thatcher 02:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply

Motion:

The general restriction in the Digwuren case is replaced with the following:
1) Discretionary sanctions
Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.
In determining whether to impose sanctions on a given user and which sanctions to impose, administrators should use their judgment and balance the need to assume good faith and avoid biting genuinely inexperienced editors, and the desire to allow responsible contributors maximum freedom to edit, with the need to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Wikipedia as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles. Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing, and to amend behaviors that are deemed to be of concern by administrators. An editor unable or unwilling to do so may wish to restrict their editing to other topics, in order to avoid sanctions.
2) Appeal of discretionary sanctions
Discretionary sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently WP:AE), or the Committee. Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators' noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.
3) Other provisions
This shall not affect any sanctions already imposed under the old remedies. All sanctions imposed under these provisions are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Log of blocks and bans.

Support:

  1. I remain convinced that this is the best solution, at least until the working group develops something more useful. Kirill 13:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC) reply
  2. Support. This is more helpful to those who find themselves involved in editing disputes over Eastern Europe, whether as participant or administrator. Sam Blacketer ( talk) 21:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC) reply
    Support so as to conform the rules for discretionary sanctions in this area to the ones we have developed in more recent cases, and without prejudice to any steps we might take later based on recommendations of the working group. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 17:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC) Marting reminds me on my talk that some of his points from above have not been addressed. Would urge that the motion be clarified to address them. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 20:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC) reply
  3. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC) reply

Oppose:

Abstain:

Querry on the use of Digwuren in editor conflicts

Please check the discussion here User_talk:Nick_Dowling#Hi. I would like to see a restriction on the use of the notification as a sledgehammer in editor conflicts. Also, I would like to know if I have overstepped the line in that discussion, and where exactly the line is. Regards-- Stor stark7 Speak 23:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC) reply

Request for recusal in Request_to_amend_prior_case:Digwuren

Concerning Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_to_amend_prior_case:_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FDigwuren

Statement by Martintg

FayssalF was an involved party in this case, making unproven allegations of online intrusion by Digwuren. Whether or not these allegations were prompted by his earlier heated conflict with some editors over claims of admin abuse is not clear, however there is a clear conflict of interest in FayssalF's participation, which he acknowledges here and here. Nevertheless, it appears that FayssalF has voted anyway. Martintg ( talk) 11:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC) reply

  • This is not some minor tweak or "just updating the wording" as claimed by Sam Blacketer, (who also voted in favour claiming " it would give more clarity to all concerned" which contradicts the proponent's statement " a better definition of the area of conflict needed, I'm afraid. Just "Eastern Europe" is too vague"), This is a major escalation from a civility remedy with blocks no longer than a month, to discretionary sanctions allowing blocks of up to one year for any reason with a very narrow definition of involved admin. This proposal was brought on the back of a single Polish/German topic dispute (which is not even within the scope of the original locus of dispute), so why should it be applicable to the Baltic States or Russia, but not Ireland? Where is the reward for those areas that have improved since 2007, if anything we should be seeing a narrowing of the scope of the current remedy to reflect these improvements, not introducing heavier sanctions. There is also an additional concern expressed by some quarters that certain admins may abuse this provision to settle some old scores, which in my view is valid given the bad blood generated in past conflicts in EE. Martintg ( talk) 19:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • In reply to FayssalF, Petri Krohn is actually Finnish, not Russian. The Digwuren conflict at its core was primarily between an Estonian and a Finn, were the Finn recruited some Russian editors to his cause. (Krohn is even now continuing his battle off-wiki in the Estonian press with his opinion piece " Estonia is a fascist apartheid state"). It is unfortunate that the remedies in the Digwuren case were extended to broadly cover Eastern Europe, and is now being exploited by Moreschi to further his agenda as expressed in his essay " The Plague". And it is a pity that some ArbCom members have apparently bought into it rather than look at the facts on the ground. I think Sarah777's rebuttal of Morsechi's thesis in her lampooning essay " The Real Plague" raises some real problems with Moreschi's misanthropic views on ethnic diversity of viewpoints in Wikipedia. Martintg ( talk) 21:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Given the nature of the change being made in the case (ie just updating the wording of the general article sanctions), I can't really see that there is a problem here. The remedy has already been adopted and all that is happening now is a tweak to the way it works. Even if there was a clear conflict of interest (which I doubt) it would not matter very much. Sam Blacketer ( talk) 14:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with Sam. There isn't a sufficient reason for us to ask FayssalF to change his mind on matter of recusal. James F. (talk) 16:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • If the case was limited to Digwuren I'd have had recused myself of course. The scale of this case goes far beyond that and involve a dozen of editors and many (hundreds?) of articles. Please bear in mind that I am neither a Russian, Estonian or a Polish editor. Also note that I had blocked both warring parties before; Digwuren (Estonian) and Petri Krohn (Russian) who were both banned for one year afterwards as a result of an ArbCom case. However, I am ready to recuse myself but would that change the outcome? If yes, then I'd gladly do it. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 17:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • I don't see any good reason to go down the road of "jury selection", or allowing arguments to be brought on the recusal of Arbitrators. There is no particular problem with the current system of recusals. Charles Matthews ( talk) 06:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with above arb's opinions. FloNight ♥♥♥ 00:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification

The restriction currently says

12) Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted)

  • Exactly how broadly is this interpretation applied? Does it extend to the Pacific Ocean?
  • I was blocked for strenuously opposing use of original research, and do not believe I was uncivil (was denied opportunity to participate in the review), and yet was blocked again (as was the case in the first two blocks). Is the Digwuren restriction intended to be used to force original research into articles that are not watched by significant number of editors to prevent "consensus" decision from adopting original research based on polls?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC) reply
    Informal request recieved, mrg3105. Could you please provide us with some links here (also via e-mail to the ArbCom mailing list or me directly)? Thanks in advance. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 23:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Sorry, but links to what? Is my block history required? It is on the other Requests for arbitration/Digwuren page-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply
All 3 blocks (executed by three different admininstrators) appearing on your block log refer to one unique reason (both the original case and its subsequent motion). There are no other links. Are there any more relevant links which can be helpful for our clarification? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 01:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Block1: Blocked by User:Thatcher with this note regarding this edit and this edit
Block2: User:Woody posts this to WP:AE, with regards to this edit to Soviet partisans in Poland. Blocked by User:Moreschi.
Block3: Blocked by User:Roger Davies, posts request for review at ANI, see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive451#Block review invited: mrg3105.
All these added by Woody ( talk) 09:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Block 3 was for incivility and personal attacks - for instance, describing Buckshot06 as "the epitome of a yes man" and accusing Biruitorul of an "extreme bias for anything Soviet" on the talk page of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. -- ROGER DAVIES  talk 11:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply
Which is which Roger?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC) reply

Request to amend prior case: Digwuren

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

  • I don't think that this relatively small change would affect any editors (yet)

Statement by Piotrus

There is a curious and I think unhelpful difference between the Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#General_restriction and the Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions which have replaced it. The sanction allow imposing sanctions on editors who "repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". The general restriction used to impose sanction for "make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith." The difference is important, as the new discretionary sanctions don't even mention personal attacks attacks and uncivility, and mention good faith in an unclear fashion later. While I think many would argue that this is covered by "expected standards of behavior", I'd nonetheless ask for a small clarification, i.e. amending the discretionary sanctions to clearly state that editors can be sanctions for (gross, repeated, etc.) violations of CIV, NPA and AGF (alternativily, we could clarify that CIV, NPA and AGF are not "expected standards of behavior" - athough I certainly hope this will not be the case). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 09:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by other username

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I'm not really sure where the confusion is coming in. Is there really a dispute over whether conduct policies constitute expected behavior? -- Vassyana ( talk) 11:49, 10 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Civility is part of behavior. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with Vassyana and Rlevse. Having said that, I wouldn't mind adding a few words to the remedy currently in effect if anyone anticipates any genuine dispute if and when the sanctions have to be invoked. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:30, 15 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • I would have thought it fairly clear that those were what "expected behavior" meant, but if you wish to suggest a wording that removes doubt I'd be receptive to the tweak. —  Coren  (talk) 09:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Concur with above, if a tweak is needed to make it clearer that can be done though. Wizardman 01:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply
  • In my opinion making the wording too detailed gives more reason for people to argue not less, so I think the more general wording used now is better. The administrators should be enforcing sanctions against users that breaks any policy and causes the article to be an hostile editting environment. FloNight ♥♥♥ 20:06, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Sandstein

This request arises from Radeksz's currently unresolved appeal, at WP:AE#Appeal against discretionary sanctions by Radeksz, against discretionary sanctions imposed against him by Thatcher. Inter alia, Radeksz argues that the sanctions are inadmissible because he did not receive a prior warning about possible sanctions. The reviewing administrators (including arbitrator Kirill) disagree about the application of the pertinent clause of the relevant remedy:

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

—  Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions

I ask the Committee to clarify the following:

  1. Must this warning be given by an uninvolved editor or administrator? (This issue came up recently in another AE case.) (Question struck, sorry, the remedy says clearly that it must be an uninvolved administrator.  Sandstein  15:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)) reply
  2. Must this warning be given anew tailored specifically to every incident of disruption for which sanctions are considered, or is one generic warning (to make the editor aware of the decision) sufficient in cases where the counseling provided for by the remedy is not deemed to be necessary?
  3. If generic warnings are sufficient, is a generic warning still necessary if the editor at issue is already known to be aware of the decision for other reasons, e.g. through participation in an arbitration enforcement request discussion concerning the same case?
  4. If generic warnings are sufficient, is a generic warning posted at the top of a discussion page (such as an article talk page) or in the course of a discussion sufficient, or must the warning be provided individually on user talk pages?

Thanks,  Sandstein  13:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Note to Piotrus: This request is not intended to address the merits of Radeksz's conduct or sanctions. I am only requesting the clarification of the issues raised above, which are relevant beyond the specific case. That specific case is currently still pending at AE and will be decided there, unless the Committee decides to hear the appeal itself.  Sandstein  16:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply
Additional comment: Although Thatcher has – in unfortunately understandable frustration – now lifted the sanctions that caused the discussion that led to this request, I believe that a clarification of the points listed above remains desirable for future cases.  Sandstein  11:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply
Reply to GRBerry: Thanks, that's pretty much what I would have thought, too. Sorry, only upon reading your answer did I notice that the remedy is actually pretty clear about who has to issue the warning.  Sandstein  15:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Thatcher

For my views on Radek, see my comments at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Appeal_against_discretionary_sanctions_by_Radeksz. Thatcher 14:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

  • You know, if you really want to micro-manage this thing, then all the warnings logged between July 28, 2008 and June 23, 2009 are invalid. The original case remedy #11 General restriction only dealt with "edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith", and the warning template (which I wrote) quoted the decision. On July 28 2008 the General Restriction was replaced with Remedy #12, Discretionary sanctions which are quite broad, and yet no one updated the warning template. So for the past year, editors have been warned about incivility when they were in fact subject to sanction for a much broader range of problems. Thatcher 14:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

I strongly object to Kirill's characterization of my imposition of the 1RR restriction as expedient, and his characterization of the notification requirement as doing the paperwork seriously deprecates the Committee's finding of persistent and long term misconduct in this topic area. There is clear and convincing evidence that these editors have been engaged in edit warring for a long time. Did Kirill review User:Shell Kinney/EEreportsreview before he decided that I was being "expedient"? I thoroughly checked the editors for prior involvement in complaints or Enforcement requests that would demonstrate prior knowledge of the case and its remedies. Or, as an experiment, type the name of any editor I sanctioned in the Admin noticeboard search box. Here, I'll make it easy for you.





The idea that these editors were not aware that this was a disputed topic under prior Arbcom sanction is ludicrous, and the idea that each editor needs to be personally warned that his own conduct is of concern plays directly to the argument of (nearly) every editor involved that all the editing problems are someone else's fault. I hope I may be forgiven for saying that these editors are some of the biggest crybabies I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. You'd think I was holding their sainted grandmothers hostage in my basement, rather than impose a simple requirement that they not revert each other, and discuss their reverts. I have seen very little acknowledgment of personal responsibility for any part of this dispute, it's all someone else's fault, and now I see Biophys arguing against the very concept of a 1RR restriction (good luck with that).

No one has yet explained how Wikipedia will be a better encyclopedia with the restrictions lifted. However, 13,000 words spent in arguing against an editing restriction imposed as a result of a revert war over the addition of a 2-word category is clearly detrimental. In the interests of paperwork and eschewing expediency, I have vacated my prior findings. Be well, do good works, and keep in touch. Thatcher 11:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Reply to Skapperod

According to the Strict construction of Remedy 12 it requires "a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator", but it does not require a specific wording and does not specify the place the warning must occur. Therefore, a warning given on an article talk page or one of the admins' noticeboards would be, according to the paperwork, just as good. I wrote the template {{ Digwuren enforcement}} to make it easier to give warnings, but other forms of warnings would be acceptable. There is no formal requirement to log the warning in remedy 12, but it is the only practical way to handle enforcement. Without an easy-to-search list, admins will find it practically impossible to know whether an editor has been previously warned by some other admin. In future Enforcement requests, if you know that an editor has been warned but that warning is not logged, you can provide a diff to the warning in your complaint. Thatcher 12:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Skap, the bottom line is that there was no record of any warning, formal or informal, user talk or noticeboard, and no links to warnings by uninvolved admins were provided in the complaint. Therefore, the paperwork was not completed properly. Now it is. Thatcher 14:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply
Reply to Igny

Igny's assumptions about me are amusing. In point of fact, I vacated the 1RR restriction because first Kirill, and now Stephen Bain, have taken the view that a formal notification on the user's talk page is required, even if the user is demonstrably aware of the Arbitration case and the remedies involved. From looking at User:Shell Kinney/EEreportsreview and the noticeboard and Enforcement archives, it is clear that this "mob" as you say, has been active for a long time, and it is puzzle that no prior admin ever put them on formal notice. But there it is. Thatcher 19:10, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Followup to Carcharoth

Although I feel we have reached the point of diminishing returns, I think I should point out that GRBerry and Bainer, whom who both agree with, have diametrically opposed views on Sandstein's question #3. Thatcher 00:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Offliner

Please also clarify the following:

  1. What exactly is the purpose of such a warning?
  2. What exactly should the form of such a warning be? Please be very clear about which form is sufficient and which is not.
  3. If sanctions have been placed without such a proper warning, should the sanctions be lifted?

Please make this as clear as possible. For example, prior to his sanctions, Radeksz was clearly aware of the Digwuren case as demonstrated by Thatcher. He was also warned for other things, such as edit warring. Does this constitute such a proper warning or not? Offliner ( talk) 09:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Loosmark

IMO the remedy is crystal clear and so is what Kirill wrote. Radeksz was clearly never given a warning on his talk page at any point as the remedy requares therefore i don't understand why is Sandstein trying to create confusion. If we accept this bizzare logic that some editor "might have been aware of the warning" then we will end up arguing each and every time whether this was really so. I believe the ArbCom formulated the remedy that way exactly to prevent any ambiguities. Loosmark ( talk) 14:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Biophys

There are several general questions that should be clarified by Arbcom to help administrators at AE:

  1. Can the sanctions be issued without the warning or without giving a possibility to improve?. According to Digwuren case, "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict ... if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia...". That means a warning logged in the case, exactly as Thatcher said [36]. That is why Thatcher rushed to issue such warnings to everyone (but forget Radek), and then immediately issued editing restrictions. The warning is not a "formality" because a user may be unaware that his specific actions (such as rare reverts in Nashi) are subject to the sanctions. After looking at the text of Arbcom decision, I honestly believed that I am only a subject to an official EE warning (but not to immediate sanctions) if my behavior was problematic, and everyone probably thought the same. Once receiving the proper warning, one could stop editing in this area or change his editing habits. However, the sanctions and the official warnings were issued at the same time, without giving users a possibility to improve, which goes against the letter and the spirit of discretionary sanctions. This matter was first brought to AE by Brandmaster: [37].
  2. Russia does not belong to Eastern Europe; this is mostly Asia. Would any purely Russian/Soviet subjects (like article Nashi) fall under these sanctions? For example, List_of_Soviet_agents_in_the_United_States? Biophys ( talk) 12:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC) reply
  3. Can sanctions for edit warring be issued to users who follow 1RR rule?. We need some safeguards here. The 1RR restriction was issued for article "Nashi", although some of the editors (including me and Radek) actually followed 1RR restriction while editing this article. Seriously, I am now afraid to make any edits, because any serious correction can be viewed as a revert. I am also afraid to make any two non-sequential corrections in the same article during a week, because this can be viewed as a 1RR violation.
  4. Can an argument about "tag-teams" be ever used to issue the sanctions? Thatcher used an argument about the "tag-teaming". But this is a controversial concept, and it has been de facto rejected by ArbCom during last EE case, although many users tried to bring it there. Indeed, it is very common that several users revert someone else who fight against consensus. Does it mean tag-teaming?

No one suggests to reconsider all AE cases. However, some clarity maybe helpful for the future. Biophys ( talk) 15:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Piotrus

IMHO the crucial issue here is that Radek was restricted for doing 3 reverts (with edits summaries) in two weeks - in other words for being guilty of respecting all of our policies!

Not warning him first is just adding insult to the injury here... but it is an important issue as well. It is my understanding that warnings serve the preventative function, aiming at reforming a user; restrictions are punitive, aiming at stopping disruptive users who have not heeded warnings. Any user who is not clearly a vandal, per AGF, should be given a warning first, and only if he refuses to change, should than be restricted. Such a warning should also be given on his/her talkpage, since we cannot assume that editors will read the entire talk pages (or even AE or such threads) for all tiny warnings/exceptions/caveats/etc.

Radek, an experienced and constructive user, has followed all of our policies. Advice to use talk pages more often would be enough, particularly as he has shown much willingness to improve his (already within our standards) editing behavior. Yet he was suddenly and without a warning slapped down with 1RR restriction (which he followed on the article in question anyway...), for having the misfortune of editing an article outside his usual interests. This sends a really unhelpful message to all other neutral editors who could help improve the EE articles... "Come, edit those articles and get restricted without a warning for following normal policies anyway" :(

Bottom line is, if the ArbCom endorses sanction on Radek, it will mean that from now on anybody who does (or has ever done) more than one revert on any article in EE subjects, at any time, can be subject to a major 1RR editing restriction (if we restrict a user for 3 reverts in 2 weeks, why not 2 reverts in 3 weeks - or 5 weeks - and so goes the slippery slope...).

(PS. I do support all other recent restrictions by Thatcher, this one seems an unfortunate collateral damage casualty - so I'd strongly oppose initiating any kind of wider review which could undue most of the recent 1RR restrictions, which did indeed bring peace to affected articles - most of whom Radek never even edited...). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Radeksz

While I understand that in filing this request for clarification Sandstein's purpose is to clarify a particular aspect of policy and procedure, I do want it noted, per Piotrus, that the fact that proper procedure was not followed is only one of my arguments. There are also others.

However, sticking to the narrow purpose of this request I think it's pretty clear from the text and the past interpretation of the case that the purpose of the warning is not to make an editor aware of the existence of the Digwuren case, but rather, in the language of the case so that the editor has a chance to take "specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines" - in other words to make the editor aware that their editing behavior may be problematic. I think this is precisely in there for border line case such as mine - where, since I was following 1RR/Week I really had no idea that I was breaking any kind of rules (as I've said before, this is the first time I've seen anyone get slapped with an accusation of "edit warring" and sanctions in the case of 1 revert per week). I'm also not arguing that a formal warning must be made in each instance - just that there needs to be AT LEAST ONE formal warning.

In light of the above I would also like a clarification on how exactly is the 1RR/Week restriction to be properly interpreted. If following 1RR/Week can get you restricted for edit warring, can reverting vandalisms get counted as a revert and lead to a ban? Of course I know there are clear cut cases, but what about something like this: [38]. I saw it yesterday, thought about reverting it since it looks like vandalism to me ... then thought better of it "just in case". There was no curse words in there, it was sort of on topic, no usual flags of typical vandalism - what if I reverted it and then some administrator decided that that was a violation of a 1RR restriction? And that's part of the trouble here - these kinds of harsh punishments for minor infractions, filed without proper procedures (even IF these procedures require some time to follow) create an atmosphere of paranoia (not to mention disillusionment and frustration) and hurt the regular work that editors do on these pages. radek ( talk) 17:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Question for GRBerry

an involved editor on the other side of a dispute - can you clarify what you mean by "other side of dispute"? Does this mean a dispute on a particular article? Does it mean a current dispute or one in recent past? How narrowly is this defined? The wording in the case leaves this open to interpretation and there's been some controversy stemming from that ambiguity as a result. radek ( talk) 15:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Skäpperöd

Formal notice and Digwuren list

The remedy does not require an administrator to place a formal notice on the editor's talk page, as was the case with superceded remedy 11. It only reads "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator" Yet, the formal notice reads that it is not effective unless logged at the Digwuren list. The list is titled: "List of editors placed under editing restriction", and the instruction for administrators below the title reads: "List here editors who have been placed on editing restriction by notice on their talk page, per remedy 11..."

It is not the active remedy (12) which requires a logged formal notice at the editors talk page, but remedy 11 which is superceded. Remedy 12 requires a warning that is only specified as linking the remedy by an uninvolved administrator, and optional counseling.

  • Why does the Digwuren list read "per remedy 11" and is still maintained?
  • Why does it list people not subject to an editing restriction, but who only received an adapted formal notice stemming from superceded remedy 11? I have no problem with being formally notified and listed somewhere as such, but I do have a problem with being listed as an editor under editing restrictions when in fact I am not subject to any.
  • Why does the formal notice template generate a header "Notice of editing restrictions" if no editing restrictions are issued, and requires logging at the Digwuren list to be effective?

Skäpperöd ( talk) 11:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Reply to Thatcher's reply to Skäpperöd

Exactly. I am not arguing against the formal notice itself and against a logging, how else would admins be able to keep up with who they warned, just that notice and list are maintained under the label "editing restrictions". I fully share your interpretation that a formal warning is not needed, and that there is no need for any additional warning if awareness of the remedy is evident. I had made that clear on your talk already, and my argumentation above was rather to point out that the whole "formal notice" concept in its current form is a remnant of a meanwhile non-existing remedy and must not be mistaken as a formal requirement. Skäpperöd ( talk) 13:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Comment by GRBerry

Sandstein posed four questions (in italics here), here is my understanding of the proper answers to them from the period when I was active at Arbitration Enforcement. These answers apply to all cases where discretionary sanctions are in force, not merely to this specific case.

1. Must this warning be given by an uninvolved editor or administrator? (This issue came up recently in another AE case.)
It is best if it is given by an uninvolved administrator. Administrators who are working enforcement for the case are uninvolved. It is worst if it is given by an involved editor on the other side of a dispute. However, the fundamental purpose of the warning is met no matter who gives it.
2. Must this warning be given anew tailored specifically to every incident of disruption for which sanctions are considered, or is one generic warning (to make the editor aware of the decision) sufficient in cases where the counseling provided for by the remedy is not deemed to be necessary?
Absolutely not. The discretionary sanctions exist because editors in the topic area have such a problematic history that they are skating on thin ice. They don't get guaranteed Nth chances, the first warning tells them that they cannot expect as much leniency as they would get elsewhere. If an admin working enforcement believes that counsel will work better than a sanction, the admin will use counsel.
It has also long been understood that anyone that was a party to the case is already warned by the case closing message simply from having been a party and no further warnings are required for case parties. This precedent establishes that individual incident warnings are not required.
3. If generic warnings are sufficient, is a generic warning still necessary if the editor at issue is already known to be aware of the decision for other reasons, e.g. through participation in an arbitration enforcement request discussion concerning the same case?
No. (Especially not for someone saying that another editor should be sanctioned under the case.) Such an editor has demonstrated awareness of the special rules and need to demonstrate the best possible behavior, a formal warning would not be of benefit to them. A logged warning may be of benefit at a later date so that it is obvious that they are aware, but that benefit comes from the logging and accrues to an admin enforcing the case, not to the editor warned because they gained no new knowledge from the warning.
4. If generic warnings are sufficient, is a generic warning posted at the top of a discussion page (such as an article talk page) or in the course of a discussion sufficient, or must the warning be provided individually on user talk pages?
I don't like the idea of a notice at the top of a talk page; the one situation I was involved in where that was tried didn't work very well, but that was also trying a non-standard approach in an extreme battleground area, and I'm not certain which, if any, non-standard feature caused it to work poorly - it might have been the particular editors instead, as I know it the approach and talk page message worked fine in a different topic area.
In general the question is whether an editor is aware of the special conditions and need to be on the best possible behavior. This can be presumed to be the case if the warning was posted to their talk page. This really can't be presumed for a warning on a talk page or in the midst of a discussion; we all engage in tl;dr at times. Talk pages, especially on disputed topics, can have screens of templates at the top that we just scroll by without reading. And a comment in the middle of a discussion may not be noticed, especially if the discussion is fast moving, as is common for disputed topics. So user talk page warnings are far more likely to be seen by the editor and thus generate the required notice - but this remains irrelevant for an editor that is demonstrably aware of the data that a warning would provide. GRBerry 14:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Statement by Igny

Despite the fact that I was affected by this restriction, I am actually saddened that Thatcher gave in to the pressure and vacated the restrictions from this particular bunch of editors (yes, including radek and even me). With all due respect to Thatcher, I think he lacks teaching experience to deal with a bunch of editors upset by the punishment. From my teaching experience, I always expect students who are upset by the grades they receive and who claim unfair punishment and who demand, often without a compelling reason, a better grade or something. In fact, if I teach a big course, I expect to be flooded by those demands.

It is an absolute rule for a teacher not to give in to such demands (unless there are really really really exceptional circumstances), any exception from such a rule may have severe consequences and undermine the authority of the teacher. Next time, expect even bigger outcries from the punished editors who will cite plenty of different reasons and precedents, including the precedent of this case.

Thatcher mentioned the tens of thousands of words spent on this simple case, but that was to be expected when you deal with what essentially is a mob. Despite what individual editors may claim or feel, the tag teaming does indeed take place in Wikipedia on many controversial topics. It is hard to judge individual contribution to the tag teaming, or determine guilt of any particular participant without doubt. That is why I was actually glad with Thatcher's decision to punish all the involved editors and thought that finally someone decided to do something about the problem. That is extremely unfortunate that under the pressure of the mob the decision was overturned. ( Igny ( talk) 18:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)) reply

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Like the purpose of warnings under general policy, the purpose of warnings here, in relation to the discretionary sanctions, is twofold. Obviously the primary purpose is to ensure that editors are aware of the existence of the discretionary sanctions before they can be made subject to them. This is particularly important in this case because the discretionary sanctions were not part of the original decision. The secondary purpose is so that editors know that their behaviour is being scrutinised and that they personally may be subject to sanctions, to allow them an opportunity to modify their behaviour. That the remedy comprehends this purpose too is apparent from the mention of counselling editors in addition to warning them, and from the list of factors in the third paragraph.
To answer Sandstein's three remaining questions:
  1. The minimum that is required is that the editor is provided with a link to the discretionary sanctions section within the final decision, as the remedy states. Once an editor has been warned of the existence of the discretionary sanctions, they do not need to be warned again (though editors who were only ever warned of the existence of the original general restriction would have to be warned of the discretionary sanctions).
  2. The terms of the remedy say fairly plainly that a warning is required. I would agree that if someone has been commenting in arbitration enforcement threads concerning the discretionary sanctions they can be taken to be aware of them, but the second purpose remains.
  3. A talk page banner is not sufficient, no. A message on the user's talk page is the best method.
-- bainer ( talk) 16:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - agree with GRBerry and bainer here. Having said that, I do have a great deal of sympathy for admins who work in the area of arbitration enforcement. There were movements afoot to reform this area, including a request for comments held earlier this year ( WP:AERFC). If proposals made there would improve things, no-one should be shy of attempting to implement any needed reform, and asking for guidance if needed. Carcharoth ( talk) 23:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC) reply
    • Thank-you , Thatcher, for pointing out that point about Sandstein's question 3. My view is that it depends on the case and editor in question, but user talk page messages are nearly always best to avoid any potential confusion or defence. It might seem like paperwork, but leaving a user talk page message ultimately reduces paperwork (and discussions like these) later. Carcharoth ( talk) 07:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: DIGWUREN

Initiated by Petri Krohn ( talk) at 21:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC) reply

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Petri Krohn

I am seeking clarification on whether this edit I made yesterday to Mass killings under Communist regimes a) constitutes edit warring, b) is a part of a BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, or c) is unrelated to any ongoing edit war in the article.

The article is under discretionary sanctions authorized in the Digwuren case limiting editors to 1RR per day.

I try to maintain a 0 RR policy on disputed topics – never doing blind reverts and instead finding new formulations to address the different objections. The edit war on the Mass killings under Communist regimes started October 13 and resulted in nine blind reverts by a total of six different editors. A complete list of the edits is available in in my comment on the related arbitration enforcement thread. My edits to the article were intended to stop the ongoing edit war by finding and proposing a suitable compromise wording. In the half an hour it took for me to check that my first edit was supported by facts the article went through two more rounds of edit warring.

I believe both my edits were allowed by WP:BRD, more specifically Wikipedia:Edit warring#What edit warring is – a Wikipedia policy that excludes the BRD cycle from edit warring. None of the material I added has ever been disputed; the fact that R. J. Rummel sees a causal link between communist ideology and mass killing is the only thing all editors working on the article have been able to agree on.

Here are three diffs related to my second edit:

  1. the edit itself
  2. diff from my previous edit in the same section
  3. diff from the disputed content edit warred over

The diffs shows three words in common with my first edit and one word in common with the disputed content.

On a general note, I would like the arbitration committee to specify, if the following two statements are a correct interpretation of the relevant policies, Wikipedia:Edit warring and WP:3RR

  1. 3RR only applies to edit warring; the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is not edit warring and is not subject to 1 / 3RR restrictions.
  2. An edit should be considered part of the BRD cycle and not edit warring, if it addresses a substantial objection raised by another editor (weasel words, BLP violation) – even if it retains a large part of the challenged content.

-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 21:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vecrumba

I have noticed "BRD" being used to spin-doctor (my perception) reverts as being something else. (Diffs are not material, I'm not here to litigate any particular instance.) Where a BRD sets off an edit/revert war, I can see the original BRD being exempt from the edit revert chain, but only as long as:

  1. the original BRD itself is not re-inserted, substantially unmodified (or modified not at all) from its initial instantiation; and
  2. where there is no initial BRD, "BRD" is not invoked to reinsert substantially unmodified (or modified not at all) content from earlier instantiations of versions which comprise an edit war already in progress.

In either event: reinserting an (initial) BRD in a chain of reverts or claiming BRD within a chain of reverts, the claim for "BRD" is nullified, as to not do so would encourage editors to circumvent #RR restrictions by offering the revert "advantage" to any editor who is first out of the gate to claim "BRD." I would like to know if my interpretation is correct. Best, PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 18:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC) reply

P.S. The corollary here is that claiming "BRD" to side-step rules on edit-warring may be construed as Wiki-lawyering. Edit-warring trumps BRD, not BRD trumps edit-warring. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ► TALK 18:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Statement by Collect

The proimary issue is that where an article is clearly and multiply marked as "1RR", is it proper to assert "BRD" when the (at least partial) contents of two reverts clearly have been on and off reverted in the past? Where such a warning is not clearly marked (which has certainly been the case in the past) I would think the argument of BRD had merit. However, the case in hand does not have the benefit of that caution at all.

There is another issue -- has "Digwuren" now been excessively stretched? I have just been officially "warned" which means I can not edit anything about the London victory parade of 1946 -- an article I did not even know existed! Where "Digwuren" is thus so stretched, ought Arbcom sua sponte consider limiting that decision which has now been stretched more than a Hefty bag in a commercial? Collect ( talk) 19:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC) reply


Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Generally speaking, edit-warring is a pattern of conduct; it is difficult to say whether a single, isolated edit constitutes edit-warring. From your description of the context, I would say that you inserted yourself in an ongoing edit war, if nothing else; this may or may not have been a good decision on your part, and may or may not be considered sanctionable behavior by administrators enforcing discretionary sanctions in this area.

    As far as your other question is concerned, 3RR (and similar rules) apply to any revert, whether it is part of a BRD cycle, a blind revert, or something else; engaging in BRD does not grant an exemption from revert limitations, and one can still be engaged in edit-warring even if BRD is offered—rightly or wrongly—as an excuse. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 17:48, 16 October 2010 (UTC) reply

  • I agree with the substance of Kirill's comments. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 05:36, 22 October 2010 (UTC) reply
  • I too agree with the substance of Kirill's comments. Risker ( talk) 03:15, 24 October 2010 (UTC) reply
  • Also agree with Kirill, and on a side-note that article appears to be a perennial dispute. One day, someone should get a list of all the articles that: (a) have far too many talk page archives (indicating incessant discussion); (b) have had protection applied many times; and/or (c) have been the subject of conduct raised in arbitration cases. And then do something about the articles to reduce the amount of conflict around them, and to objectively measure whether the articles are in fact improving over time. And to also look at measures to improve the quality and tone of the associated discussions (whether that be proposing topic bans for certain editors, or constructing a FAQ, or simply improving the article so there is less to argue over). Carcharoth ( talk) 05:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: WP:DIGWUREN

Initiated by Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk at 21:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request: reply

Statement by Piotrus

Several weeks ago, I've asked this question at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests. I've done so twice, but despite some (limited) discussion by editors, no arbitrator, to my knowledge, has joined the discussion. As such, I am repeating my question here, as an official request for clarification.

Regarding WP:DIGWUREN ( Wikipedia:General_sanctions), would it be:

  1. ) applicable to an editor who in a discussion, for example, at a general policy page (and not necessarily on an EE content article), makes bad faith / incivil remarks / PA regarding EE editors in general (for example, discussing the bias of "Slavic editors", identifying votes of editors as "X comes from a Slavic country" and makes similar arguments, the gist of which is arguing that EE editors are not neutral/biased
  2. ) applicable to an editor who in a discussion, for example, at a general policy page (and not necessarily on an EE content article), makes bad faith / incivil / PA remarks regarding another editor or editors by mentioning an EE-related ARBCOM case with expired sanctions to back the claim that "this editor is biased, as the XYZ case proves", "this editor has been found to be disruptive, to edit war, has supported editors who were found disruptive", and so on. In other words, is there any recourse when an editor is trying to damage another editor's reputation by citing/linking old ARBCOM findings, poising the well by reminding others "what bad, bad deed that evil person did X years ago"? To give more generic examples, related behaviors would include noting in a discussion that "should I remind you of the findings/sanctions of an arbcom case against you [implied: that editor has been sanctioned in the past, so his arguments should be suspect]", or more directly, "editor X was banned from this topic area [implied: so his arguments should be suspect]", or in a vote that "editor X was found to use a sock-puppet 3 years ago [implied: so his vote should count less]". Just to be clear, I understand that editors have the right to ask about another editor's history in discussions that center on that editors (such as during Requests for Adminship and other positions). My question relates to other, content-related discussions, where such comments are similar to a regular personal attack (but instead saying "editor X is a troll", what is said is "editor X has been sanctioned in the past"). Either comment is irrelevant to the discussion in question (sanctions in questions have expired), but the second one is more insidious, as by invoking administrative/arbcom findings/sanctions it creates the illusion of having the "Wikipedia rules" behind it.

If WP:DIGWUREN is not applicable, I'd appreciate comments what, if any, policies are, and where such behavior can be reported (or are editors just supposed to take such poisoned comments for years and decades)?

I will note that this request for clarification does not pertain to any current incident. Rather, it is based on numerous incidents I've seen in the past year or so, incidents which I believe keep the EE battleground still simmering, but which at this point I am not sure what is the correct avenue, if any, to deal with. Should a WP:DIGWUREN AE request be made in such cases, or...? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Replies. Yes, Biophys, I am very fond of forgiving and forgetting, and yes, you are right that continued harassment leads to editor loss ( some thoughts of mine on this). I have to say I am surprised that the comments from Arbitrators seem to indicate that they see nothing wrong with such combative attitude which is the primary reason why the old battlegrounds are still smoldering. I am also confused as those comments seem to be quite different from the comments that the admins make on AE (see for example current case here). Where the arbitrators seem to be very lenient, the AE admins seem to be rather strict. What am I missing? Are the interaction bans the only way that harassing and sniping, hounding can be stopped around here? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Biophys

Piotrus, do you mean that everyone must just forgive and forget, and this is it? Yes, that would help to make this place much better, but this is also a dramatic attitude change. It is not uncommon that administrator X wants to block user A for doing something because user A did the same a couple years ago. It is also frequently claimed that user A (who currently is in good standing) should not switch to a different account because no one should be dissociated with his edit history, and therefore nothing can be forgotten. This situation forces some people to resign. I am not talking about things like the gradually increasing blocks for violating the same topic ban. But, yes, forgetting others would be a great idea, but this should start from administrators. Biophys ( talk) 12:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC) reply

I agree that no one should use expressions like "EEML people" (e.g. here and here), which assumes a collective responsibility. Some participants of the mailing list did not receive any sanctions in relation to the list. One should only talk about individual editors sanctioned in EEML case if their sanctions did not expire. Biophys ( talk) 04:53, 8 September 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by other user

I think that if an editor has a complaint about this that they should take it to ANI rather than AE. There is nothing in Digwuren or other AE cases to guide the administrators here. TFD ( talk) 04:48, 28 August 2011 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • No, there is no sanction for using a user's own appropriate history in discussions of current behavioral problems. Wikipedia editors should be mature enough to know that 1) everyone makes mistakes, 2) good people move beyond them, and editors who edit without repeating problems in the distant past should be given appropriately more consideration than someone who's just come off of a block for the same action, and 3) one's reputation on-wiki is what it is. In general, I do not favor suppressing, via technical means or by prior restraints on on-wiki speech for mentioning, legitimate history. There is a way to overcome a sanction, and it is pretty straightforward: abide by it, and don't ever get involved in the same problems again. In that way, anyone who cares to bring up the past sanction just makes themselves look like a fool for doing so when the issue clearly does not apply to present reality. Jclemens ( talk) 00:47, 27 August 2011 (UTC) reply
  • In general, I think the answer is 'no'. If editors start arguing about Eastern European topics on an article talk page and the arguments spill over onto other pages, for example user talk or the admin noticeboard, and uninvolved admins apply arbitration enforcement blocks for those editors who were uncivil, regardless of where they were uncivil, that would be ok. However, I think the question here is significantly different, and under those circumstances it wouldn't be covered by arbitration enforcement. PhilKnight ( talk) 01:45, 29 August 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with both JClemens and Phil. SirFozzie ( talk) 21:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Without endorsing the behaviour you're describing, I pretty much agree with above. It's simply not written into the (aging) case as described in your examples. This doesn't mean there aren't other dispute resolution paths or venues available. – xeno talk 23:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC) reply

Request for clarification: WP:DIGWUREN or WP:ARBMAC

Initiated by TransporterMan ( TALK) at 21:00, 15 September 2011 (UTC) reply

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by TransporterMan

Do articles about Slovenia or Slovenian matters come within the Eastern European or, less likely, Balkan discretionary sanctions and, if so, which? I am not advocating for inclusion or exclusion, just wish clarification, but would note that Doremo and Doncsecz are involved in a long term slow-motion edit war at Slovene dialects which might cool if one or the other of the sets of sanctions apply. (To their credit, they are seeking dispute resolution at Third Opinion.)

@ArbClerks: When archiving occurs, I request archiving to both Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren and Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Macedonia. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Fut.Perf.

Answer as a non-arb, but as somebody who has been active in enforcing both sets of sanctions: my personal stance would be that, since both decisions allow for a "widely construed" field of application, I'd have little qualms in using either or both in respect to this country. Where I come from, "Balkan" certainly comprises all of former Yugoslavia. However, my willingness to invoke these sanctions would depend to a high extent on the question whether the type of conflict involved in a given case is comparable with the typical profile of conflicts these sanction rules are made to handle – i.e., mostly, inter-ethnic and nationally motivated historical and political conflicts. In the specific case you mention, the issue seems to be much less political and more of an internal language-related kind. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Doremo (party to dispute)

Geographers disagree on the eastern/central and Balkan/non-Balkan categorization of Slovenia. So it's difficult to say what the scope of the discretionary sanctions are in relation to Slovenia. User Fut.Perf. is correct that the dispute involves a language issue and not a political issue; that is, it does not have an inter-ethnic/national dimension. The slow-motion edit war ended on 8 September after I refused to revert. I've tried to summarize the issue at Talk:Slovene_dialects#What_is_this_fight_about.3F. In any case, the dispute appears to be inactive now because I was successful in soliciting a 3rd opinion as well as additional input from another editor at WikiProject Slovenia at the suggestion of user TechnoSymbiosis. The result is that consensus was achieved, user Doncsecz himself/herself reverted his/her changes, and another editor (Yerpo) restored balance (removed undue weight) from the article. Doremo ( talk) 04:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Generally agree with FPaS that it would probably fall under the category of broadly construed. SirFozzie ( talk) 09:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with Future Perfect and SirFozzie, the sanctions apply in this instance as Slovenia is part of Eastern Europe and The Balkans, broadly interpreted. PhilKnight ( talk) 12:49, 16 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I think that the original intent when we said "Eastern Europe" is mostly about cultural rather than geographical lines; and given that we gave leeway to construe the field broadly, then I agree with FPaS and my colleagues above that Slovenia is reasonably included. —  Coren  (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Concur with the above. Jclemens ( talk) 03:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Also concur. It's worth noting, incidentally, that the question of which set of discretionary sanctions is applicable here is essentially an academic one, as any particular sanction may legitimately be imposed under the terms of either case. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 22:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed. The Cavalry ( Message me) 12:45, 23 September 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I believe this can be archived. – xeno talk 14:27, 3 October 2011 (UTC) reply

A proposed amendment to a sanctions remedy

A motion has been proposed that would amend a sanctions remedy in this case. It would replace the remedy in this case that allows administrators to unilaterally apply sanctions to editors within the designated topic area with a standardized remedy that essentially allows for the same thing. Any extant sanctions or warnings made according to the older wording found in those decisions (as applicable) remain unaffected. To comment on this proposal, please go to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions. NW ( Talk) 20:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Request to amend prior case: Digwuren

Initiated by Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... at 05:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Case affected
Digwuren arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Remedy 12: Discretionary sanctions
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

  • That the topic bans placed on The Last Angry Man and Igny here be modified to allow participation in the current Mediation Cabal case.

Statement by Steven Zhang

The administrator who placed the topic bans, Mkativerata ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), detailed that the topic bans of three and six months for TLAM and Igny respectively would also prohibit participation to the Mediation Cabal case. In my opinion this is not in the best interests in the mediation. For mediation to be successful in the long term, participation from all parties is required, and a short term topic ban which includes the mediation case may make any agreement from the remaining parties have less chance of being an agreement that will stick. If incivility or bad faith accusations are a problem, perhaps the committee could consider a penalty for further incivility or bad faith behaviour at MedCab, say, their topic ban length is reset. But I think it's wise to allow them to participate in the case, and request the Committee modify the topic bans to allow this. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 05:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@Mkativerata, I agree that the behaviour of the named editors has been substantially below par. We need to make it in the interests of the parties to not disrupt/be uncivil/bad faith the MedCab process, for example, a three strikes rule. All parties have been put on notice, but perhaps strike one, warning, strike 2 is one week topic ban, strike three is one year/indef topic ban. None of us are admins, no but this could be delegated to us to deal with incivility etc at MedCab. As for blocks , we have over 1000 admins to deal with blocks. From past experiences with MedCab cases that have topic banned editors excluded generally causes issues once their topic bans expire. The mediation has more chance of long term success if they are included in the discussion. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 06:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

To respond to a few points that were raised,

  1. On AE being the proper forum to take this, I didn't consider taking this to AE as my understanding is that appeals by the sanctioned users were to be made there, not amendments requested by outside parties. TLAM and Igny were topic banned under the discretionary sanctions from the Digwuren case, so to me this was the most appropriate place to raise the matter.
  2. On MedCab being informal dispute resolution, I agree, in the past it has been an informal dispute resolution method. A recent reshuffle of the DR hierarchy has made MedCab more of an intermediate option between MedCom and lower forms of DR, such as Third Opinions and the dispute resolution noticeboard. In theory this could be kicked up to MedCom and someone there could take over, but in all honesty I think the three of us are competent mediators and see no real reason ArbCom can't make an exception to the rule in this case.
  3. On appointing an administrator to deal with conduct issues within the MedCab, I hardly think this is necessary or required. I think I can be trusted enough and am experienced enough to keep an eye on behaviour, and request administrator assistance from one of the 1000 or so administrators we have if required. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 20:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@ArbCom (especially Risker), in my opinion the key is a balance between giving too much slack and strangling them with a choke chain. If these users are put on such a short leash that one misstep gets them automatically topic banned for a year, we risk stifling the mediation as they fear anything they say could be used against them. That's why the Mediation Committee has privileged mediation, to facilitate open discussion between parties in order to achieve resolution. Another concern I have is that putting these two users only on such a short leash opens them up to potential baiting by the other parties. In theory, the other parties could be slightly uncivil etc, and they could do nothing about it, if they were to respond in kind, they'd be instantly topic banned. Some time after the Prem Rawat 2 closed, I requested the Arbitration Committee to extend this normal privelige that MedCom cases get to that MedCab case. Instead the case was kicked up to MedCom, where I partly helped assist resolve the dispute. Such action isn't really possible nowadays, as I am told MedCom has updated their policies etc.

I am somewhat conflicted as to whether to request this MedCab case be offered that privilege. On one hand I do think it will help facilitate open discussion, on the other hand there is the potential for it to be gamed. I realise that such a suggestion will also be met with opposition from various people commenting on this request. While I realise that what I have requested her is unusual, I have been doing content dispute resolution for quite some time and have had my part in a fair few tricky disputes. I wouldn't make such requests if I didn't think it would provide long term benefit to the dispute. I also note that all parties have agreed to the ground rules that I laid down at the start of the case. Perhaps something could be implemented where only proceedings on the MedCab case page are privileged, but with the caveat that any abuse of this to be uncivil, excessively rude etc could be reported to an administrator at our discretion.

With all due respect, I know how to mediate. I feel I am perfectly capable of dealing with uncivil behaviour and requesting administrator assistance if so required, and don't feel it necessary to have an admin appointed to watch over the case. If one is really required, I would prefer AGK ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). These conditions would not apply outside of MedCab, and we are happy to keep a close eye on discussions that occur outside of MedCab to ensure that no one crosses the line on behaviour. In the end, it is your decision as a committee. In my opinion, doing nothing would be a mistake. While I'm no fortune teller, this dispute is not going to have a quick fix, it will potentially take months to resolve. As it stands, one topic ban expires in 3 mths, one in 6. If the mediation is still open at either point, we risk having to re-discuss or do a backflip on proceedings, and in my opinion this is not a positive thing if there is another way to make this work (like I have suggested). I can't tell you what to do, only what I think is right, but I hope you will consider my opinion when making a decision. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 07:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@TransporterMan, you've hit the nail right on the head there. I agree that this is a simple request and it should not be overly complicated. As for TLAM commenting here, he is free and able to do so. Arbitration and Arbitration Enforcement are two general exceptions to topic bans. Perhaps you could post a reminder to him with the details on his talk page. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 19:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@ArbCom, I must say I am a little disappointed that this is still sitting here without further comment. Sure, I could go to AE, but in my opinion it's a bit of a waste of time, and process for the sake of process. Two things could happen, 1) The decision at AE is to allow the topic banned users to participate, which means we reach the same end result as we would have here but waste more time doing so or b) The decision at AE is to not allow the parties to participate, which means I would come back here and appeal that decision. Either way time is wasted. I'd urge the arbitrators to consider IAR for a minute and make a decision here and now. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 20:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@ArbCom, I refer to this AE request where it has become apparent that AE will not produce a result as suggested by several arbitrators below. As Tznaki stated, "I think the end result here will to be to bounce back to ArbCom with AE deciding not to overturn". Therefore I bring it back here to request ArbCom to make a decision either way, as I think this thread being open for weeks or months will be unprofuctive. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:06, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@Tznkai, for what it's worth, I count NuclearWarfare, T.Canens, Cailil and yourself in favour of allowing the exception, with the banning admin and EdJohnson opposing. Seems like a consensus to me. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@Tznkai, very well then. Not overly happy with the outcome but apparently my views don't matter as much as I thought. There's not a lot I can do about that. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 00:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Mr. Stradivarius

I am another mediator in the MedCab Holodomor case. I agree with Steven Zhang - I think the result of the mediation will stick better if Igny and The Last Angry Man are both allowed to take part. I also agree that maintaining civility in the mediation is of utmost importance, and that proceedings could be hampered by incivility or personal attacks. I am not sure if/how this should be enforced, however, and I will be happy to accept the arbitration committee's judgement on the matter. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 06:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Responding to some of the points made so far. First of all, sorry for the venue confusion - I wasn't aware of the fine distinctions in ArbCom pages when I first commented on Steven's proposal. Second, I would agree to have an uninvolved administrator monitor the mediation for civility violations. I don't agree with Steven here - I appreciate that we have the RfA process for a reason, and I wouldn't be comfortable with being delegated power to block users without having the community approval that passing an RfA entails. Third, Tammsalu makes the good point that Igny may not have participated very much in this mediation anyway. I think it would be a good idea to hear from Igny and The Last Angry Man themselves to hear what their attitudes to the mediation are. Their stances may have changed after the topic bans and after reading the comments here and in the AE thread. Regards — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 07:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
After reading the statement by TransporterMan, I have to concur with his stance on the strictness of the participation conditions. While of course, incivility and disruption by the topic-banned editors should not be tolerated, making the conditions too strict may well stop them from voicing their opinions, and could open them to baiting from other editors. Rather than very strict conditions and constant monitoring, I think the effectiveness of the mediation would be better supported by slightly more relaxed conditions and a highly structured mediation process. (Steven has outlined the process at the mediation page here, and you can see the draft proposals page here.) — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 05:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Mkativerata (admin who applied the topic bans)

I explicitly included MEDCAB in the topic bans, as would ordinarily be assumed to be the case. The topic bans were for behaviour that included, among other things, TLAM referring to his opponents as a "pro communist cabal" ( [39]), and Igny saying in the AE itself that "I will add more comments here after the WP:EEML team rushes here for TLAM's defence and mud slinging." I judged that this was plainly not behaviour consistent with engaging constructively in dispute resolution. I believe I was correct to make that judgement, and that Arbcom should find no reason to interfere with it. I also note that none of the mediators appear to be admins. If I am correct in that, they would not have no power to block either user for disrupting the MEDCAB process, or for transgressing their topic bans, whether on a MEDCAB page or elsewhere. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 06:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Just one point. Yes we have 1000 or so administrators. But Arbcom will be well aware that only a very small fraction are willing to put their hand up for arbitration enforcement. Just look at the current AE page. We shouldn't overburden the admin corps more by allowing two users topic-banned for largely behavioural reasons to participate in non-binding dispute resolution under the supervision of a volunteer administrator. Our finite resources can be much better targeted than by an indulgence of that kind for two editors, who I should not have so far neither appealed their bans nor made any request to participate in MEDCAB despite them. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 21:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply
@TransporterMan: WP:DIGWUREN, which is the authority for the topic ban, says: "The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." It needs not be said that when an editor is "banned from any editing related to the topic" for battleground behaviour, the ban includes content-related dispute resolution processes. In any case, I would have included MEDCAB within this ban regardless of whether doing so is the norm. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 19:03, 12 October 2011 (UTC) reply

After this matter has returned to AE by way of an AE appeal, I have modified the topic bans for Igny and TLAM in accordance with these terms. The terms were worked out in consultation with Steven Zhang and fellow AE admins. I think that means there is no more work for Arbcom to do here. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 20:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC) reply

statement by uninvolved Collect

Propose a "short leash" rule. On the first use of any inapt language on the mediation pages, or any pages relating thereto in any way (including user talk pages), the topic ban be fully reinstated and doubled - that is, if either makes posts or edit summaries which are uncivil or accusatory of others being in any "group", "team", "mailing list" or "cabal" without furnishing specific and compelling evidence thereof, that the offender's topic bans be doubled in length and that they be so informed upon entry to the mediation. I further suggest that this be dependent on MEDCAB obtaining approval from a fully uninvolved adminstrator willing to examine the posts. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

By the way, I concur that altering another's posts on this page is a serious violation of etiquette no matter what the point the person is making. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 19:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Biophys

This is not a matter to be decided by Arbcom. Of course they could remove completely all discretionary sanctions in Digwuren case, but that was not requested. Making a specific exemption for two editors would be inappropriate interference in AE business. If these two editors want their AE sanctions to be modified or lifted, they must submit an appeal to AE, as stipulated in previous Arbcom decisions. Biophys ( talk) 14:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Agree with EdJohnston below. The mediation can proceed without these editors. Biophys ( talk) 00:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • It also might be good to appoint an additional mediator (as Newyorkbrad suggested). However, this is not admin versus non-admin question. That should be someone familiar with the subject of the dispute, someone like Moreschi. Actually, this is the biggest problem in the entire AE area right now: admins rule on behavior of users, but the behavior can be misleading. Of course they also read content of discussions, but non-expert admins tend to make two common mistakes:
  1. If a research publication was widely debated in press and by peers (praise and criticism as usual), they tend to assume that it was "controversial". Actually, such publications are either the best as the most highly cited (if written by experts on the subject, e.g. "Gulag Archipelago") or the worst if written by revisionist pseudoscientists like Dyukov. But one needs to know who is who.
  2. If a user does not curse others, talks a lot, copy-paste numerous quotes from sources he likes at article talk pages, and denounce sources he does not like as "non-academic", admins tend to think that he is an expert. No. Real experts are too busy with their studies in real life and have no time for creating walls of text on wikipedia talk pages. Biophys ( talk) 13:27, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by EdJohnston

By going directly to Arbcom, this request seems to take a shortcut around AE. Unclear why there is any need for that. The first step would normally be to ask the admin who imposed the sanction (Mkativerata) to consider modifying the restriction. Since the sanction was for WP:BATTLE behavior, it is not obvious why adding these two parties to the mediation would be a win. Their absence might actually lead to a swifter conclusion of the mediation, if all the charges are correct. Finally, this request does not ask for any actual amendment to the DIGWUREN decision. Neither Igny nor The Last Angry Man was placed under any particular sanction by Arbcom in the DIGWUREN case. The topic bans we are discussing were placed by Mkativerata under discretionary sanctions. There is a whole different appeal process for that. EdJohnston ( talk) 19:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Paul Siebert

From the very beginning, I proposed to exclude the MedCab case from the topic ban, and I do not find the initial Mkativerata's explanation (or the lack thereof) convincing. In my opinion, the most reasonable proposal has been made by Collect, and I would like to develop it a little bit further to address some Mkativerata's and Newyorkbrad's concerns. In my opinion, TLAM and Igny may be allowed to participate in the MedCab provided that they will strictly observe all possible decorum rules; any violation of these rules, if reported by the mediators (not by other participants), will automatically lead to one year topic ban. I see no technical problems with realisation of this proposal, and I do not understand how the mediation process may be impaired by that.
One more point. It is quite possible that the MedCab will last more than 3 months, which means that one of two topic banned users will join the discussion, and we will probably need to go back to address some of the arguments he was not able to put forward timely due to his ban. That will disturb the mediation process, and I do not think this is a result the admins want to achieve.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 01:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Tammsalu

User:Igny mentioned he was pulling out of mediation in any case due to real life issues [40], so discussion of his possible participation is moot. -- Martin Tammsalu ( talk) 03:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by TransporterMan

I'm one of the MedCab mediators on this case and apologize for being late to the party; real world issues have interfered over the last week. In some ways, the decision on this request goes to the positive and negative reasons for why DR exists and why it is here: to benefit Wikipedia by settling disputes, hopefully positively through consensus, but sometimes negatively by just getting them settled to stop the disruption. If we have editors who feel so strongly about this that they're just going to wait out their topic bans and start changing the article again, then the mediation is a waste of time without them. Getting them in and allowing them to help craft the solution at least potentially avoids that result. I therefore support the idea of allowing an exception to the topic ban for The Last Angry Man (noting that Igny has chosen not to participate). It seems that the solutions to this request are becoming too complicated with a montoring sysop and double or nothing sanctions. The sanctions in question are a "voluntary" topic ban, in the sense that he has not been blocked and is capable of editing anywhere he pleases to do so. No one is officially or semi-officially monitoring TLAM on that ban at the present time. Various eyes could be watching, of course, but should he violate the ban it would far more likely that someone would just happen to have to come along, just happen to notice the violation, and choose to report it to AE. All we are requesting here is that the topic ban be relaxed for MedCab and that Steven (or perhaps any two of the three mediators if you do not want to just let one do it) be given the right to reinstitute the full breadth of the ban should TLAM's behavior deteriorate in any of those venues to the point the mediators feel that it is interfering with the mediation process, with the only needed action being:

  • To relax: A note on TLAM's talk page by Mkativerata or an ArbCom member or clerk setting the parameters of the relaxation and the mediator(s) right to reinstitue it, along with a corresponding note at Digwuren's Log of blocks and bans, and
  • To reinstiute: The mediator(s) leaving a note reinstituting it on TLAM's talk page and at the Diguren log.

A strict "one bad word and he's gone" standard, especially (but not only) one which either is being continuously scrutinized or second-guessed by parties outside the mediation or which results in a longer ban is inimical to the mediation process. Indeed, my feeling is that the only consequence of behaving badly in the mediation ought to be the risk that he will be excluded from it, not that he will suffer blocks or bans because of it. (The flip side of this, however, should be that any decision of the mediator(s) to reinstate the full breadth of the topic ban should not be appealable: the relaxation should be considered to be an act of grace entirely for the benefit of the mediation and thus the encyclopedia, and not to the slightest degree for TLAM's personal right or interest, which can be revoked without cause or explanation at any time it appears that the encyclopedia is not receiving the desired benefit.)

Finally, before much more time is spent on this it would be well to find out if TLAM wants to participate further in the mediation, but of course he cannot comment on that question unless he is given permission. Would Mkativerata consider relaxing the ban to at least allow that question to be asked and answered here on this page? Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 18:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

@Russavia: Per this it would appear that the sockpuppetry issue has been settled unless you have new evidence. If you do, are you going to take it to SPI? If so, it might influence how I feel about this. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 19:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
@Russavia: Thank you for the link to the clarification request, that helps clarify the present situation. Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 13:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply
@Russavia: I've not examined the evidence and do not know or, at this point, have an opinion about whether or not TLAM is or is not a sock of Mark Nutley, but I'd like to presume for the sake of this question (only) that he is, indeed, a Nutley sock. I can certainly understand why that ought to cause TLAM to be blocked altogether and indefinitely but unless that is going to happen then I would ask you why that fact ought to otherwise bear on this request. To say it in another way: He's either (a) a sock and ought to be gone altogether, which would solve the question of his participation in the mediation, or (b) he's not a sock and would be valuable to the mediation process for the reasons stated by the mediators here, or (c) he's a sock (or strongly suspected but unproven sock) that the community has chosen to tolerate. The question is this: If the community isn't going to do (a), why should there be a difference between (b) and (c) for purposes of this request? Best regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC) reply
@Mkativerata: I wish I had noticed this much earlier, but Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Exceptions_to_limited_bans expressly allows a topic-banned editor to participate in good faith in dispute resolution:

Unless stated otherwise, a restricted editor may make edits that would otherwise be a violation of the restriction if it is part of proper dispute resolution, so long as it is done in good faith. For example, an editor who is restricted from interacting with an another editor may ask an administrator to look into conduct by the other editor.

The "unless stated otherwise" clearly applies in this case, as you expressly mentioned "No exception for MEDCAB" in your AE ruling. But I must wonder whether you would have included that restriction had it not been for Paul Siebert expressly (but, in light of policy, unnecessarily) requesting an exception from MedCab. Would you have? And if you would not have included, would you have gone back and expanded the topic ban to include it if you had learned that he was participating in MedCab under the authority of the banning policy exception? Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 18:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Qwyrxian

I volunteer to be the monitoring admin. I'm the admin who fully protected the article, and who opened the mediation request. I am not a party to the dispute. I have, as far as I am aware, never been a party to any dispute relating to WP:DIGWUREN]. Assuming that the arbitrators find that this is the appropriate venue, that it is a positive solution to have one or both of these parties involved in the mediation, then I am willing to monitor the mediation for any improper behavior. I am also willing to discuss any possible problems with the mediators themselves. I won't be reading any of the actual sources, nor do I have any interest in actually forming an opinion on the article contents themselves--I would strictly be monitoring from improper behavior on the part of these two editors. I would prefer that the consequences for violating these conditions be made quite clear though--specifically, does a violation in mediation actually count as a "normal" violation, thus extending the current 3 months topic? Regarding whether or not allowing a specific exception? My opinion is that it is a good idea, as pointed out above. There's no sense in working really hard for several months to get a consensus, just to have LATM come back in 3 months and say "But none of you accounted for X, Y, and Z, so I cannot accept the results of this mediation. Revert." This exception would essentially be given with the understanding that if LATM violates the conditions, they're essentially forfeiting their "right" to object later (if a stable consensus is achieved). Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply
Just to clarify, this presumes that TransporterMan's statement above is accurate and the user in question is not a sockpuppet of a banned/blocked/topic-banned editor. Qwyrxian ( talk) 07:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Comment by Tristessa de St Ange

As a member of the Mediation Committee who used to be coordinator of the MedCab. I would be happy to endorse on AE/AN that an exception should be permitted for the purposes of the MedCab case and take responsibility for supervision. This case could alternatively be referred to us at the MedCom, but I would prefer to see the existing mediation case allowed to continue as it stands before a request for formal mediation being made. I am also willing to be the uninvolved administrator/mediator mentioned by Newyorkbrad if necessary. -- Tristessa (talk) 11:43, 16 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by TLAM

In response to the question posted on my talk page the response is yes, I believe mediation will help improve the article in question and also give myself an insight into how mediation works. I should like to thank the mediators for their requests in relaxing the topic ban to allow myself to continue with the dispute resolution process. The Last Angry Man ( talk) 22:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vecrumba

Should there not be some expectation of decorum here? I did not join WP to read fulminations on canine genitalia. And is there a reason some editors continue to advocate for outright bans of others whom they disapprove of? That is not seeking resolution of conflict, rather, that is escalating conflict. I've already commented elsewhere on the alleged sockpuppetry. Whatever is decided here should be consistent with the past and be on solid enough ground to be a basis to set a precedent going forward. PЄTЄRS J V ► TALK 16:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Russavia

Under no circumstances should TLAM be allowed to participate in anything on WP. Refer to WP:SOCK and User:Marknutley. It is disappointing that Arbs are suggesting that an obvious sockpuppet should be allowed to participate in anything on WP; particularly given the clarification request. Russavia Let's dialogue 19:34, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply

TransporterMan, there is currently a clarification request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request_for_clarification:_Arbcom-unblocked_editors in relation to this. The committee has yet to comment directly on this case at that request, and it should be making comment directly in relation to it. I have provided a few admins confidential evidence, some of which has already been given to the committee, but the other half has not yet been provided to the Arbcom. When almost every uninvolved admin has stated their belief that this is a sockpuppet, I am not yet going to file any SPI, only because to do so would be to be required to divulge evidence which gives Marknutley/TLAM insight into his editing traits that have given him away. I have already provided a few of these traits. Any editor is welcome to do their own comparison of MK/TLAM and his other socks, to see that the behavioural evidence is there. Russavia Let's dialogue 07:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply
And a quick additional comment, I am not going to supply the Committee with the additional evidence, because to do so will to allow them to ignore clear behavioural traits, and totally convincing traits at that, as they have already done. Once they fob off yet more evidence, and refuse to even so much as remotely answer direct and straightforward questions in relation to this case, that evidence will become off-limits and unusable. Hence why any evidence has thus far been limited to trusted admins, whilst other editors are welcome to do their own investigation and comparison of edits; it took me all of an hour or so to compile a convincing list; and only a few minutes to find traits that stuck out like dog's balls. Perhaps once Arbs attend to the clarification request with direct answers, instead of beating around the bush and refusing to comment on the case directly, I may then provide them with evidence, but not whilst they are engaging in murkification instead of clarification. Russavia Let's dialogue 07:48, 11 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by Tznkai

Given the nature of AE, we have tended to be, and last I checked still are, rather deferential to the enforcing administrator. Going above our heads, such as it is, is probably more efficient, especially when seeking to directly overrule a ban provision. I personally do not see a problem with letting any sort of mediation, formal or informal, go forward, so long as we trust the person managing the mediation. If a MEDCAB'er is volunteering their time, let them. Spill over effects should be minimal at best, and bans are easy to reapply.-- Tznkai ( talk) 23:15, 12 October 2011 (UTC) reply

As pointed out to me by Transporter man on my talk page, Mkativerata's statment that "It needs not be said that when an editor is "banned from any editing related to the topic" for battleground behaviour, the ban includes content-related dispute resolution processes." is in conflict with the written banning policy. I changed the policy text but not the substance on 29 September. The relevant provision was

The following exceptions to article, topic and interaction bans are usually recognized:

  • [...]
  • Legitimate and necessary dispute resolution, that is, addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum. Examples include asking an administrator to take action against a violation of an interaction ban by the other party (but normally not more than once), asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban, or appealing the ban for a good reason.
I replaced that with:
  • Unless stated otherwise, a restricted editor may make edits that would otherwise be a violation of the restriction if it is part of proper dispute resolution, so long as it is done in good faith. For example, an editor who is restricted from interacting with an another editor may ask an administrator to look into conduct by the other editor.
  • A restricted editor may always ask for clarification about their restrictions, appeal the restriction in the appropriate forum, and may always respond to threads on administrative noticeboards that directly complain about, or seek to sanction the restricted editor.
I'm not sure if this issue is on point or not, and I believe my revised text is faithful to the policy as it actually exists. I again reiterate, that both personally and as a matter of Wikipedia norms, we should pursue resolving disputes when possible, rather than managing disputes by topic bans. Hope is not a strategy.-- Tznkai ( talk) 18:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC) reply
Just want to point out that AE is not a court of appeals, and what is actually happening so far is nothing. as I've stated here we are, and should be, very deferential to decision the "man on the spot" as it were. I disagree with Mkativerata's decision and his reasoning thus far, and hope he changes his mind, but I do not believe it is my place to overturn it, barring establishing a consensus of some sort. That does not mean that the Arbitration Committee should be as deferential. Indeed, it shouldn't, because there is no effective review of discretionary sanctions other than the committee. The arbitration enforcement structure essentially leaves us answerable to only one authority. If ArbCom isn't at least willing in the abstract to review sanctions, it should set up some sort of fairly muscular and agile (read: small) review process. The alternative is an incentive structure where AE admins will rush to get their decision in "first" and then go about in an imperial manner, with their decisions essentially untouchable.-- Tznkai ( talk) 00:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply
RE to Steve's point on headcount, no, you should count my !vote as a provisional oppose. My gut instinct is that Mkativerata's reasons for making his decision are much better than they have been described already. As I said, I would have made a different decision, but there is nothing thus far that gives sufficient reason to override someone else's decision. To do that, I would have to be convinced that the original decision was extremely defective.-- Tznkai ( talk) 00:32, 26 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
  • Now that the sanctioning administrator has agreed to modify the ban he imposed, I believe this discussion is moot? NW ( Talk) 18:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC) reply
    • Agreed. The Clerk is asked to archive this thread. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 00:54, 31 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Biophys is partly correct. ArbCom should not be the first stop on appeal AE sanctions, but if the resulting discussion is unclear on the consensus, then bringing it to us would be the next logical step. Normally, we allow exceptions to sanctions for the purposes of "formal dispute resolution" (such as Mediation Committee and/or Arbitration Committee) cases. However, the Mediation Cabal is INformal dispute resolution. (per its mandate). Therefore my suggestion is that the proper venue for this request is an AE Appeal (either at AE, or one of the AN noticeboards), and coming back here if unclear. SirFozzie ( talk) 16:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • My initial inclination would be to allow these two users to participate in a MedCab mediation if an experienced mediator opines that this would be useful, as appears to be the case here. If they or anyone else become disruptive of the mediation pages, they can and should swiftly be disinvited. ¶ I note Mkativerata's last point, that the mediator is not an administrator and therefore might need help keeping order on the mediation pages, and I think it would be useful if an uninvolved, experienced administrator were to volunteer to assist with this mediation. ¶ Regarding the proper forum for this request, those opining that it should be presented as a discretionary-sanctions appeal on AE are correct as a formal matter; however, I am increasingly concerned that (not due to anyone's fault but simply the accretion of safeguards and procedures over time), the different types of requests and forms of appeal are becoming an impenetrable bureaucratic thicket to the vast majority of editors who are fortunate enough not to live their wikilives on the arbitration pages. At some point, something must be done about this, but I am not sure what. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 20:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC) reply
    • As this request has now been granted at Arbitration Enforcement, I agree with the Clerk that the request here has become moot. The Clerk is asked to archive the thread. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 00:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I kinda like Collect's "double-or-nothing" rule. I think that's something that AE could explore, but again, not sure if ArbCom needs to be the body ruling on it. Jclemens ( talk) 01:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I disagree with some of my colleagues about the proper venue; the option is an "either/or" one, and this is as appropriate a venue as is Arbitration Enforcement. While I would be willing to consider lifting the sanction strictly for the purpose of participating in mediation, it would need to be on the proviso that *any* violation would reinstate a full topic ban, that an uninvolved administrator agree to monitor the situation and respond to concerns expressed by the mediators, that the mediators undertake to notify this administrator of any potential violation, and that removal of one or more of the parties from the scope of the mediation due to sanctions in the mediation process or any other process will not immediately invalidate the mediation. I would not want to see a potential resolution of the dispute go down the tubes because one or more of the parties is unable to proceed partway through. Risker ( talk) 04:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with my colleagues above that this is best brought to AE. I'm certain that the considered opinions of the mediators is going to be taken into account when the discussion takes place there. —  Coren  (talk) 17:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Having looked at the comments at AE at the time the topic ban was imposed, especially in light of the re-emergence of the sockpuppeting allegations which question arbcoms unban decision, and the comments above, I dont think that there is a good reason to overrule the AE admin. John Vandenberg ( chat) 05:28, 20 October 2011 (UTC) reply
  • In general, I think ArbCom should only overrule a decision made by an admin if the decision was seriously flawed, or if new information has come to light. In this case, the decision made by the admin was an entirely reasonable judgment call, and in this context, I don't think we should overrule the decision. PhilKnight ( talk) 16:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC) reply

Request to amend prior case: Discretionary sanctions in cases named after individual editors

Initiated by T. Canens ( talk) at 11:43, 26 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Case affected
Digwuren arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Martinphi-ScienceApologist arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Abd-William M. Connolley arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. The "Standard discretionary sanctions" section, variously named and numbered.
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
N/A: the suggested amendment is cosmetic.

Amendment 1

Statement by Timotheus Canens

This request is prompted by a recent AE request, in which the practice of naming the applicable discretionary sanctions provision after an editor caused confusion on an editor who is not very familiar with the AE process. The three listed cases are the only cases named after individual editor(s) with a discretionary sanctions provision, according to WP:AC/DS; all other cases are named after the relevant topic area instead.

I recommend that the Committee make a cosmetic amendment that allows these discretionary provisions to be easily referenced using an arbitration case named after the subject area instead of individual editor(s). Not only is the latter approach rather counterintuitive and potentially confusing (if someone unfamiliar with AE wants to look up the discretionary sanctions provision for Eastern Europe, WP:DIGWUREN is not really the most obvious place to look), but it is also rather unfair to the editors at issue to have their usernames perpetuated in literally years of AE requests that usually have nothing to do with them. Digwuren ( talk · contribs), for example, has not edited since June 2009, yet his username has been, and will be, by necessity, brought up in all AE discussions related to Eastern Europe simply because, by happenstance, the discretionary sanctions in this topic area was passed in a case named after him. As Newyorkbrad observed in a somewhat analogous situation, such a situation is "neither dignified nor fair". T. Canens ( talk) 11:43, 26 February 2012 (UTC) reply

@Kirill:
  • For Martinphi-ScienceApologist, my suggestion is to move the entire discretionary sanctions apparatus to the existing Pseudoscience arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t). The discretionary sanctions in this area were added by motion simultaneously to both the Pseudoscience case and the M-SA case, so the log is already split across two cases. When the Committee standardized discretionary sanctions, the new phrasing was added only to the M-SA case.
  • For Digwuren, the problem is that we already have the Eastern European disputes arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t) which post-dates this case. Maybe simply "Eastern Europe"?
  • For Abd-WMC, perhaps "Cold fusion 2"? T. Canens ( talk) 17:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
@EdJohnston: WP:ARBRB doesn't have any remedy targeting non-parties to the case, which is why I didn't include it in the list. T. Canens ( talk) 08:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by Eraserhead1

Seems like an excellent idea Tim.

Statement by EdJohnston

I support Tim's proposal to rename these cases. Replacing 'Digwuren' with 'Eastern Europe' sounds good. The acronym WP:ARBEE is available even though WP:EE is in use. Another option is WP:EECASE. We should not worry too much about confusing the proposed name, 'Eastern Europe', with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes, since that case is less well known and there have been no enforcement actions since 2009. Tim did not mention Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys, also known as WP:ARBRB. If you want to include ARBRB in the reform, then how about 'Former Soviet Union' as a new name. EdJohnston ( talk) 07:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

@Tim: I accept your reasoning for why ARBRB should not be included in the reform.
@Courcelles: Keeping 'Eastern Europe' in the revised case name For Digwuren would be a benefit not a disadvantage. The older cases, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes and WP:EEML, are historical curiosities and they don't need to be referred to very often. It is unlikely that any violations are going to be reported at AE in 2012 under these cases. WP:DIGWUREN is frequently cited at AE but it could logically be renamed to something like Eastern Europe. EdJohnston ( talk) 18:54, 8 March 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by Russavia

I would also like for WP:ARBRB to be renamed to something that does not include my username. I see no reason why I should also be required to put up with an Arb case being named (partly) after me, when the issues of the case were deeper than that -- as suggested by Ed above. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 10:06, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by Volunteer Marek

This has been suggested before, IIRC, had some support but because it wasn't seen as urgent at the time no one got around to carrying through. This is a good time to implement it then. I think Tim articulates the reasons for why this is a good idea quite well, so I don't have much to add on that.

All of Timotheus C's and EdJohnston's specific renaming suggestion are good. VolunteerMarek 16:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vecrumba

This is both long overdue and welcome.

  • I would suggest ARB-EE for Eastern European disputes OUTSIDE the Soviet legacy--DIGWUREN is the appropriate basis: the later EE arbitration case actually resulted in some level of amnesty and moving forward; all the sanctions are in the Digwuren case (the one-sided naming has always been a problem as well).
  • I also suggest/second ARB-FSU (Former Soviet Union) for Soviet legacy cases (historic portrayal) as well as current geopolitics, i.e., Russia related to South Ossetia, Transnistria, et al. as well as the wider conflict between official Russia and the Eastern European countries over the Soviet legacy.

To some of the other comments, I don't see that EEML poses any confusion issue. This does leave us with what I see as one issue remaining regarding the above and all that has been stated so far:

  • "EE" is not really the appropriate rename for DIGWUREN, as I believe the sanctions have exhibited considerable scope creep outside the original Baltic purview. It might be more appropriate to consider a name completely outside the EE realm, a bit wordy but ARB-GEOPOLITICS might be what we are really after.

I would like to see a more active approach to renaming cases as soon as their enforcement bounds move beyond the scope of the original case and editors involved. There is no useful purpose to stigmatizing editors on any side of an issue manifesting strong disagreements amongst editors. I trust that actions here will set a positive precedent. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 19:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Seems the previous case that is named Eastern European Disputes was renamed for similar reasons as it was also previously named after a specific editor. However, it appears the Digwuren case has been the only one cited with regards to sanctions in the topic area. Not sure what the appropriate action would be there but several of the same editors are mentioned in those two cases and they involve the same topic area. As far as potential short names I think WP:EEUR or WP:EASTEUR would be good ones as they are regularly-used abbreviations and sufficiently distinct from the existing short names such as EEML.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 21:20, 4 March 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I see no problems with a cosmetic amendment of this sort in principle. Timotheus, please identify suitable new names for the three cases you mention, and we will proceed from there. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 16:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with Kirill. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 16:44, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • I also support this proposal. (In the case of Digwuren, we need to be careful not to confuse the new case name with the similar but separate Eastern European mailing list.) AGK [•] 22:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • As one who spent nine months trying to figure out what DIGWUREN was an acronym for, I fully support more sensible names - Eastern Europe disputes (perhaps abbreviated to WP:EED)) would be so much more intelligible. -- Elen of the Roads ( talk) 23:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • If we're going to do this, can we come up with something for Diguren that doesn't include the phrase "Eastern Europenan"? With EED and EEML already out there, another case title like that is just going to be confusing. Actually, I've always thought that Digquren and Macedonia having discretionary sanctions was overkill, and could be consolidated, since the area covered by Macedonia's sanctions is just s subset of Eastern Europe. Might be worth considering while we're here... Courcelles 14:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC) reply
  • The discretionary sanctions provision of Digwuren has the scope of "Articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted". I share the view of Ed and the other observers that the similarly-named cases (EEML being the most prominent) are nevertheless infrequently cited. I therefore propose as follows. AGK [•] 01:05, 9 March 2012 (UTC) reply

Motion: To rename Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren

1) The case Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren is renamed to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe. For the new title of Eastern Europe, WP:ARBEURO and WP:ARBEE are created as shortcuts. For the purposes of procedure, the index of topics with an active discretionary sanctions provision will be updated with the new title, but previous references to the Digwuren decision do not require to be updated. The rename of the Digwuren case to Eastern Europe is only for clarity in reference, and does not invalidate any previous action or pending sanctions taken under the provisions of this case.

For this motion, there are 13 active non-recused arbitrators, so 7 is a majority.


Support
  1. Proposed per above discussion. Many variants on Eastern Europe, such as Eastern Europe disputes, do exist, but I know from experience with enforcement that simpler case names are far less bothersome. AGK [•] 01:05, 9 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  2. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 01:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  3. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 02:03, 9 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  4. As long as whatever it is isn't confusing to others, it's fine by me. -- Elen of the Roads ( talk) 04:13, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  5. PhilKnight ( talk) 11:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  6. Per comments above. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 19:13, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  7. Jclemens ( talk) 20:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  8. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:08, 14 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  9. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs( talk) 12:53, 17 March 2012 (UTC) reply
  10. Not perfect (per Courcelles) but a good step towards depersonalising this,   Roger Davies talk 05:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC) reply
Oppose
  1. No, not in this form. The correct solution as I see here is that these sanctions, the Macedonia sanctions, and the AA ones should be consolidated into a single broad set of discretionary sanctions, instead of these three overlapping, vague decisions. I'd support renaming this case, transferring Macedonia and Armenia-Azerbaijan sanctions here, and making the scope something like "the counties and territories of the Former Soviet Union, Former Yugoslavia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, and Cyprus." Mabe not in these words, or those countries, but IMO, the solution here is to consolidate these three overlapping sanctions into one, not rename the Digwuren case into a vague, non-descript name that resembles other cases. Courcelles 17:33, 14 March 2012 (UTC) reply
    The three cases you mention cover fundamentally distinct conflicts (by which I meant that the associated real-world disputes are not substantially similar in nature, nor related to some common cause or constrained within some common geographic region), so I'm not sure why we'd want to combine those cases and not, say, the conceptually similar discretionary sanctions provisions for the Israeli-Palestinian disputes, etc. Kirill  [talk]  [prof] 18:05, 14 March 2012 (UTC) reply
    They're not the same conflict, but they are within what the Digwuren case covers, which is the broad and vague topic of Eastern Europe. The cases were over different areas -- but the cases almost don't matter now, just the topic areas covered, and Digquren covers, in broad terms, what also have sanctions in AA and Macedonia cases. The problem isn't that the three cases overlapped in focus, but that the Digwuren sanctions sort of make the other two unnecessary if "Eastern Europe" is taken to make everything it can mean, and that having three sets of the same sanctions is nothing but a chance for wikilawyering. Courcelles 02:22, 15 March 2012 (UTC) reply
Abstain
Comment by Arbitrators

Clarification request: Eastern Europe

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Nug ( talk) at 20:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC) reply

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Nug

Are Admins required to place the notice of discretionary sanction on IPs, particularly static IPs, and add them to WP:ARBEE#List_of_editors_placed_on_notice? In two recent 3RN cases [41] [42], User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise blocked both User:Jaan (and FPoS did not take into account there was no diff warning Jaan, unlike admin Kuru did in a subsequent case [43]) and User:16.120.84.244 for breaching the 3RR rule. He subsequently noticed Jaan [44] and added him to the log [45], but did not do the same for the static IP. I asked him why [46], but seems to be ignoring my question [47]. It seems other admins treat IPs equally, for example User_talk:184.36.234.102, but apparently not FPaS. Could the Committee give direction on this. Thanks. -- Nug ( talk) 20:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC) reply

FPaS states: "I didn't feel like it, because the IP editor was new to the area and I wasn't yet seeing a consistent pattern of problems." seems somewhat disturbing. Jaan had a clean block log and four GAs (while nowhere near as many as some of the Wiki-superstars is still pretty good in the Baltic topic area), so what "consistent pattern of problems" did FPaS observe in Jaan? I don't recall Jaan ever being involved in revert wars previously. Did he observe Jaan was from Estonia from his user page and concluded "Yep, from Estonia, therefore a problem", then added an Arb notice for good measure? -- Nug ( talk) 20:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC) reply

[Annoyed grunt] by Fut.Perf.

This is about nothing. I gave two users a standard (and therefore unlogged) 3RR block. I gave one of them a standard (and properly logged) arb warning at the same time. This is not about formalities of logging stuff, nor about how to treat IPs. It's simply about the fact that Nug, POV ally of the editor I warned, is unhappy I didn't warn the other guy too. Well, so what? I didn't feel like it, because the IP editor was new to the area and I wasn't yet seeing a consistent pattern of problems. But I warned him now, because he resumed edit-warring in the same way immediately after coming back from the block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC) reply

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • As it says on the tin, "All sanctions imposed under the provisions of a particular arbitration case are to be logged in the appropriate section of the case page".   Roger Davies talk 14:38, 9 July 2012 (UTC) reply
  • The existence of discretionary sanctions doesn't change the ability of admins to hand out standard, garden-variety edit-warring blocks. Of course, whether a block is filed as an AE block or not does change whether the restrictions on removing an AE block come into play. But there is nothing in the rules that requires a block that could be filed as an AE one be so filed. But, if an IP is going to be sanctioned under AE, the paperwork must be done, just as if it was an account that is blocked. Also, as far as I'm concerned, the templated notification is basically an individual "heads up" regarding the different conditions some articles operate under, and not some form of indictment of wrong-doing. Courcelles 00:35, 10 July 2012 (UTC) reply
  • An admin may elect to use AE sanctions or community sanctions according to their judgement of the circumstances, so Fut.Perf.'s explanation seems reasonable. Where Fut.Perf may have erred, was in not responding to a legitimate query as to his actions as admins are accountable for their actions: "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." However, as it was the same day as posting the question that this clarification was opened, it's possible that Nug may have been a little impatient, and a second request to Fut.Perf. would have been more in keeping with the collegiate environment we attempt to create. There is no obligation on any user to answer queries in any particular order, and it is not uncommon for people to work upwards on their talkpage rather than downwards, or even to miss a query if a second one came in quickly. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:47, 10 July 2012 (UTC) reply
  • I pretty much agree with Courcelles and SilkTork. In any event, this seems moot now, as the static IP has been warned as well. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 19:53, 12 July 2012 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for clarification (November 2014) Discretionary sanctions alerts

Original Request

Vandenberg confirmed that a caution was intended and the alert template was removed -- S Philbrick (Talk) 18:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC) reply

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by  Sandstein  at 16:21, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
WP:AC/DS

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Sandstein

Today, John Vandenberg, an administrator, alerted me about the discretionary sanctions applying to the Eastern Europe topic area, and logged this as a "notification" on the case page, which he later changed to a "warning". Judging by an earlier comment, he did so to register his disapproval of my speedy deletion of an article created by a sock of a banned user. After I removed the alert after having read it, it was immediately reinstated by an anonymous user, 41.223.50.67.

Per WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts the purpose of such alerts is to advise an editor that discretionary sanctions are in force for an area of conflict. I am and have been active as an administrator by issuing discretionary sanctions in this topic area, and am therefore perfectly aware of the existence of these sanctions, as John Vandenberg confirmed he knew. The alert therefore served no procedure-based purpose. This also applies to the unneeded logging on the case page: Unlike earlier notifications, alerts are not logged on a case page because they can be searched for with an edit filter. John Vandenberg knew this because he used the correct alert template as provided for in WP:AC/DS.

It therefore appears that John Vandenberg used the alert procedure and the log entry not to actually inform me about discretionary sanctions, but that he misused the alerts procedure to mark his disapproval of a deletion I made and to deter me from making further admin actions in this area with which he disagrees. That is disruptive because this is not the purpose of alerts, and it is not how admins are expected to communicate with each other about disagreements concerning each other's actions. It is also disruptive because it has had the effect, whether intended or not, to create the incorrect impression in another administrator that I am disqualified from acting as an admin in this topic area because I received this alert.

To the extent the now-"warning" is meant as a sanction in and of itself, it is meritless and disruptive: The speedy deletion I made was compliant with WP:CSD#G5, and does not conflict with the prior AfD because the ban evasion issue was not considered there. Any concerns about this deletion should have been discussed at deletion review.

Per WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts, "any editor who issues alerts disruptively may be sanctioned". Nobody other than the Arbitration Committee is authorized to issue such sanctions. I therefore ask the Committee to clarify that alerts should not be used for any other than their intended purpose, and to take such actions (e.g., issuing a warning) as it deems appropriate to ensure that John Vandenberg will not continue to issue alerts disruptively. By way of appeal of discretionary sanctions, I also ask the Committee to remove the "warning" from the log as being without merit.

Prior to making this request, I discussed the issue with John Vandenberg, but we failed to reach an understanding, and he invited me to submit this matter to this forum for review.  Sandstein  16:21, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

I cannot understand John Vandenberg's contention that I used admin tools while involved. I have never interacted with "Polandball" or related pages or users editorially, but only in an administrative capacity. Per WP:INVOLVED, such continued administrative activity does not speak to bias (even if others may not agree with the admin actions), but is instead merely part of an admin's job. John Vandenberg's casting of unfounded aspersions of misusing admin tools and of "battleground mentality" is also disruptive. As I said elsewhere, I did fail to take into consideration that my alerting the user who filed a DRV request concerning an AfD I closed might be perceived as an improperly adversarial action, even though an alert is not supposed to be one and I didn't oppose the restoration of the article proposed at DRV. I'll keep this in mind in a similar future situation. Nonetheless, because alerts may be issued by anyone, including involved users, the alert raises no question of involvement.

As concerns the "warning", either it is meant as a discretionary sanction for misconduct (as the warning by me he cites was) and in this case is appealed here as meritless and disruptive, or it is not and has therefore no place in a log under the new procedures.  Sandstein  18:30, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

John Vandenberg: Alerts are not admin actions because they neither require advanced permissions nor are they restricted to administrators. But neither are they editorial actions that speak to bias and would disqualify an admin that issues them, because they are intended to be neutral and informative in nature. Are you seriously contending that merely issuing an alert makes me involved and unable to act as an administrator, and on that basis you alerted and warned me? It should be obvious that this can't be the case, if only because by that logic your own warning would be inadmissible because it was preceded by your alert which would have disqualified you from acting further.

This episode indicates, to me, that this whole alerts system is unworkably cludgy and may need to be scrapped if even former arbitrators can't understand it, and that perhaps general clarification is needed that discretionary sanctions and alerts are, shall we we say, not the ideal way to respond to concerns about admin actions - such concerns are normally a matter for the Committee alone.  Sandstein  21:51, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by John Vandenberg

To my mind, Sandstein is obviously ' WP:INVOLVED' in the current DRV about Polandball, however not surprisingly he claims to be uninvolved. To quickly recap, he is the admin who deleted the article at DRV; when notified of the DRV, he decided to issue a DS alert to the person who initiated the DRV, and speedy delete another related article which had survived an AFD and was mentioned on the current DRV. When User:Nick undid the speedy deletion, Sandstein also demanded that Nick redelete it. IMO, this is fairly clear battleground mentality, only including the use of admin buttons for good measure. All quite unnecessary, as a sizable chunk of the community would participate in the DRV, so his voice there would be heard. It is very strange logic that Sandstein felt he had to alert user:Josve05a about discretionary sanctions, but objects to me feeling the same way about his own editing/admining in this topical area. He claims his alert to user:Josve05a was not an admin action (otherwise he would surely run afoul of ' WP:INVOLVED'), but then cant see he is participating as a normal contributor. Maybe he considers a DS alert to be a friendly chat, when he gives one to someone else ...

Anyway, the nature of this clarification is the use of alerts and the logging of them on case pages. Obviously some serious saber rattling would have quickly occurred had I sanctioned Sandstein, so I went with an alert only with a stern message with the hope he could see how others were viewing it. He didnt; he continued to post aggressively. When I found the right DS alert template and posted it, the edit filter notice reminded me to check if he had been notified any time in the last 12 months, and press Save again if I was sure it had not occurred. As I didnt find any prior notices (in edit filter log or on talk page archives), I proceeded to save the alert. I then went to the relevant arbcase to log it as is the usual procedure. I knew DS had been standardised earlier this year, and was pleasantly surprised by the edit filter logging, but it didnt occur to me that alerts would not be logged. The arbcase log for the EE case had all the signs of logging being part of the standard procedure.

Since Sandstein objected to the logging, I went and had a look at other cases and found quite a few examples of the log including notifications and warnings; I did offer to give Sandstein examples of such notices and warnings, but we are here now. Here are the ones that I've quickly found in arbcom case logs since April 2014.

If it is no longer appropriate to log alerts/notices/warnings on the arbcom case, an edit filter should be added to ensure admins are aware of this change. John Vandenberg ( chat) 17:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

@Sandstein, when you put a notice on user talk:Josve05a, were you doing that as an admin or as a normal user? If it was the "editor Sandstein" who popped that friendly note on user talk:Josve05a, and not the "admin Sandstein", can't you see that you've become INVOLVED? John Vandenberg ( chat) 18:41, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply
@Sandstein, so you issued a DS alert to user talk:Josve05a with your "editor Sandstein" hat on, and you want admins to be exempt from discretionary sanctions? Thanks. John Vandenberg ( chat) 01:17, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by Nick

I've nothing to add to the clarification and amendment section, but I will state, as I have repeatedly said, I'm really getting fed up watching good content be deleted and destroyed as a result of battleground mentality. It genuinely makes me sad watching material that people have put their heart and soul into, being deleted because it was written by this week's bogeyman. Nick ( talk) 17:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

@Future Perfect at Sunrise. The CSD-G5 criteria cannot be used on any page that has survived a deletion discussion (AfD). The CSD-G5 deletion by Sandstein was out of process. Please refer to Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Pages_that_have_survived_deletion_discussions for further information. Regards, Nick ( talk) 12:16, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by Olive

If the DS alert is going to be used without a sting it has to be used for everyone all the time. Its common for editors to know an article is under DS, but this isn't something one can assume. Of course, the use of the alert can been abused and can be seen as threatening. Use that is universal will over time render the warning as commonplace and standard, will de sting. Whether it was used in this instance as an implied threat, I don't know or care. Behind many of the actions I've seen against editors over the years are threats, some so complex as to be almost invisible. I know how that feels, so am not condoning anything that threatens but unless we deal with the surface level of an action and ignore assumption we will never get to supportive editing situations.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 19:04, 1 November 2014 (UTC)) reply

Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

One of the goals of the recent reforms which turned "warnings" to "alerts" was to remove the stigma of the warning/alert. Apparently, that stigma is alive and well. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 22:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment by Alanscottwalker

Giving a "warning" is an administrative function. Its only purpose is administration of the website. No, a User does not have to have privileges to do much of administration on Wikipedia. The idea is anathema to the community, which expects good users to administer, even to requiring such at RfAdmin, moreover, the website would not function, if users did not step up. So no, giving a warning does not mean one is INVOLVED. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 01:40, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment by Fut.Perf.

John Vandenberg's actions in this case are wrong on so many levels at once it's hard to know where to start. About his technical misunderstanding of the nature of alerts and the non-logging of "warnings", I think all has been said. More importantly, his warning was wrong on its merits. As for the speedying of Why didn't you invest in Eastern Poland? (the only issue he actually mentioned in the warning), Sandstein was processing a valid G5 speedy; the fact that there had been an earlier "keep" AfD is obviously irrelevant as long as the facts justifying the speedy weren't known and discussed during the AfD. As for Sandstein's actions in the Polandball issue, which seems to be what John Vandenberg is really more concerned about, the claim that he was showing an inadmissable battleground attitude is utter nonsense when you look at his actual, very measured and balanced, comments in that DRV. Finally, the "warning", whether logged or not, was also out of process. A "warning" under DS means that I, an administrator, will hand out a block or topic ban to you, the person I am warning, if you repeat the behaviour I am warning you over. Does John Vandenberg seriously believe he would be entitled to block Sandstein if he did a G5 speedy like this again in the future? That beggars belief. Even if John Vandenberg had legitimate reasons to be concerned over Sandstein's actions, then his recourse would be not to impose "sanctions" on him, but to ask Arbcom to review Sandstein's actions; that, however, is not in any way inside the scope of what the DS are about, and therefore also doesn't belong in the DS logs. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:14, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment by Neotarf

This request is eerily similar to this one made some time ago, where four editors were given "civility warnings" by Sandstein, apparently at random. The result of the clarification request was a delinking of the four names in the ARBATC case page. If any action other than delinking is recommended for the current situation, it would only be reasonable to revisit the other situation as well. — Neotarf ( talk) 02:53, 3 November 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment by Ncmvocalist

Perhaps AGK needs to take a step back and reconsider what it is that is being said rather than apparently typing rash replies. I am sure it would not be difficult to demonstrate how involved they have been in this "DS" rewrite project (on or off wiki), and maybe that is why he is naturally inclined to be defensive of it (even bordering what people term as ownership mentality - eg "I have spent hours editing this....").

I recall he previously said in relation to this topic (but on a separate matter) 'I will not have it said that any issue relating to DS has been rashly dismissed, particularly after an exhausting, year-long consultation. I'm sorry to have to point out that you are not coming in at the eleventh hour, but a year and a half late.' But the simple fact is, there is genuine concern or criticism regarding how convoluted and time-consuming the DS system is to the vast majority of users, and even if it is now two years later, I am sorry to say his replies below do seem to me to rashly dismiss those concerns ( [48] [49]) and are not consistent with what is expected here.

It is so patently obvious that a number of editors, administrators, and for that matter, former arbitrators and current arbitrators have in fact needed to take quite a bit of time to go through this 'system', and that it is by no means 'simple', 'easy to use', or 'working' by extension. Now that this reality is finally noted, I would suggest at least the rest of Committee rectifies the issue. It would be good if that happened. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC) reply

I too would repeat this comment by A Quest For Knowledge. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 16:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Discretionary sanctions alerts: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • When I get back from a trip on Monday, I will wade into the technicalities here. For now, I will simply note that Russavia is surely laughing his ass off at the drama he is causing here without even trying. Let's all try not to give him more reason to do so. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 18:03, 1 November 2014 (UTC) reply
    • I spent the past half hour or so reading over the back-story to this request, and perhaps I am in the advanced stages of serving out my last term as an arbitrator, but I really wish I hadn't. Let's back up a step. "The purpose of Wikipedia is to create a high-quality encyclopedia, in an environment of collaboration and community among the contributors." The entire administrative apparatus, including "discretionary sanctions" and the arbitration process and the other WP: pages where some of us spend too much of our wikitime, is ancillary to the objectives of Wikipedia that brought us all here. Debating the rules of these administrative processes should not become, in intent or in effect, an end in itself. Put differently, if the bickering about the rule-sets governing administrative processes on Wikipedia has become more complicated than some of the real-world rule-sets that I interpret every day as a litigation attorney, something is wrong. The dispute, or set of disputes, crystalized in this request is so many levels removed from the purpose and objectives of Wikipedia that it is sad. Beyond that, I will leave sorting out the fine points here to my colleagues who were more active in the DS recodification project. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 03:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC) reply
      • What? I do not think it fair to say that anyone in this request is requesting clarification with non-constructive motives. These editors have a legitimate need of a ruling here, and you cannot legitimately refuse to be understanding of that and still expect the project's administrators to do their job. AGK [•] 23:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • There is an alarming failure here to grasp the distinction between the two relevant procedural entities. Cautions or warnings are sanctions and need logged; alerts (previously known as notices) are not sanctions and carry no implicit accusation of guilt. These two used to be more or less the same thing. In the recent update of procedures, they were split off and it is wrong to interchange them. John Vandenberg needs to decide whether he wanted to caution and sanction Sandstein (it appears he did) or alert him. If it is the former, he should issue Sandstein with a hand-written caution (and delete the alert template, which he may not use for that purpose). If it is the latter, Sandstein is already aware per point II of the relevant procedure and he must not attempt to 're-alert' him. I accept JV's claim that he was not aware of the changes in procedure, but I would remind him and all administrators generally that, before engaging in this process, you must take five minutes to update yourself on these changes. If you do not, you can be sanctioned by the committee, and given that this process is hardly in its infancy you are likely to find the committee exercises this right.

    On the complaint of JV about Sandstein, my position is that it cannot be heard in this venue. With the procedural confusion clarified (not that there should have been any in the first place), I suggest JV take this complaint up, perhaps with a handful of other administrators, directly with Sandstein. Neither party appears to have made an adequate effort to resolve this together, despite, as administrators, being obliged to do so. Should those attempts prove futile, a proper case request should then be filed. AGK [•] 12:31, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply

  • I essentially agree with AGK. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:26, 2 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I also agree with AGK. T. Canens ( talk) 20:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • As do I. WormTT( talk) 08:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • And I. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I do as well but it's frustrating the amount of time I had to spend, back several months ago, to get a solid grasp of how this system works. Brad makes a point: the system is quite complicated, and has become a bit of a self-contained beast. While I was able to pick it up, I'm afraid it would simply be incredibly daunting for any new user to navigate. NativeForeigner Talk 05:04, 17 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • AGK summarises things well but makes one key mis-step. He asks that: "I would remind him and all administrators generally that, before engaging in this process, you must take five minutes to update yourself on these changes." The response by NativeForeigner and NYB show that the estimate of 'five minutes' to update oneself on these changes is a woeful underestimate. What is needed here is some feedback from newer admins on how easy it is to understand the system as it currently stands. It is also incredibly important that ordinary editors, especially those potentially facing sanctions, find the system easy to use. If the system fails that test, then it will be unfit for purpose. Carcharoth ( talk) 02:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC) reply
  • @ Carcharoth: DS is easy to understand, because we put months of effort into writing polished, clear documentation for it. NYB and NF are not good test cases: while voting earlier this year, they had to get to grips with both the new system and the changes made from the old system. Current administrators merely need to read and follow WP:AC/DS.

    More to the point, the new system is working. Let us leave it at that. AGK [•] 06:14, 25 November 2014 (UTC) reply

  • I'm not sure there's much useful left to add at this point. I'll ask the clerks to archive it,   Roger Davies talk 11:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for amendment (December 2014)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by  Sandstein  at 19:31, 27 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Case affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Presumptive discretionary sanction of 1 November 2014 by John Vandenberg
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
Information about amendment request

For the reasons detailed below, I ask that the Committee

  • sanction John Vandenberg for misuse of discretionary sanctions and failure to communicate, and
  • remove his presumptive discretionary sanction against me, by way of appeal as provided by WP:AC/DS#Appeals and modifications.

Statement by Sandstein

As set out in a request for clarification on 1 November 2014, John Vandenberg issued me earlier that day with, confusingly, an " alert", " notification" or " warning" supposedly per WP:AC/DS for alleged misconduct on my part in the Eastern Europe topic area, and logged this on the WP:ARBEE case page in the section "Log of blocks and bans". The request for clarification concluded on 10 December 2014 with most arbitrators agreeing with AGK, who noted that as an alert per WP:AC/DS this action would have been inadmissible and that John Vandenberg needs to decide whether his action was meant as an alert or as a discretionary sanction, in which case he would need to issue a "hand-written caution". Despite my repeated requests ( [50], [51]) to do so, John Vandenberg has responded only with evasive one-liners ( [52], [53]) before ceasing to edit altogether. A further clarification, promised in his last edit on 10 December 2014 for "tomorrow", has not been forthcoming.

John Vandenberg has violated the conduct rules that apply to admins in two respects:

  • John Vandenberg's issuing the alert, notification or warning to me was frivolous and disruptive. There are no grounds for either a discretionary sanction or any other admin action against me. To the extent I can discern any relationship between his actions and any actions by me at all, the one action by me to which John Vandenberg expressed an objection was a normal admin action, to wit, deleting a page created by a sock of a banned user, Russavia, as directed by WP:CSD#G5. Even if this deletion could have been deemed objectionable (there was an earlier AfD, but in my view it was no bar to speedy deletion because that discussion didn't know about the ban evasion), John Vandenberg would have been out of line by responding to it with discretionary sanctions, meant to address misconduct arising from disputes about topics related to Eastern Europe, rather than with a civil query and a discussion among admin colleagues, and possibly with the community at deletion review or elsewhere, which would have been the expected way to settle good faith disagreements among admins about the merits of contested admin actions. Instead, he chose a course of action either intended to or at any rate having the effect of furthering the block-evading activity of a banned user's sockpuppets, by inappropriately stifling normal admin action intended to counteract such activity by way of the "chilling effect" of discretionary sanctions.
  • Moreover, John Vandenberg violated the admin policy's requirement that "administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." Additionally, WP:AC/DS specifies that admins "must not ... repeatedly fail to properly explain their enforcement actions". John Vandenberg failed these expectations by failing to respond to my repeated queries – made necessary by the conclusion of the clarification request – about whether his action was intended as a sanction or as an alert, and to my repeated queries about the specific reasons why the sanction (if it is one) was imposed. His lack of response has so far prevented me from properly appealing the presumptive sanction. Per WP:AC/DS, admins failing to meet the expectations set out in that procedure "may be subject to any remedy the committee consider appropriate, including desysopping".

For these reasons, I ask the Committee to sanction John Vandenberg to the extent necessary to prevent further misuse of the discretionary sanctions procedure. I also ask the Committee to strike John Vandenberg's warning from the enforcement log – either as an out-of-place and superfluous alert, or as a groundless sanction, which is hereby appealed in case it is a sanction. Finally, I ask the Committee to clarify that discretionary sanctions are not to be used in lieu of discussion among admins about whether good-faith admin actions are appropriate or not.

In consideration of the already long time elapsed solely because of John Vandenberg's confusing and dilatory conduct, I ask that this request not be suspended or declined on account of his apparent absence from Wikipedia. Thanks,  Sandstein  19:31, 27 December 2014 (UTC) reply

@ AGK: Sorry, but I don't see how the matter would die a natural death, as you put it. The way I see it, I'm still subject to what is logged as a discretionary sanction that was, in my view, imposed for invalid reasons and in a disruptive manner for what I consider doing my normal admin duties, which it is impeding by its existence. I don't think that I'm being unreasonable by asking for it to be reviewed exactly as provided for by the procedure you helped write. But if you see another way to resolve this problem, I'm open to any advice.  Sandstein  07:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply
@ AGK: Thank you for removing whatever that was; I appreciate it. I remain of the view that John Vandenberg has, including by his lack of required communication in this matter, failed to meet the expectations in administrators as described in the discretionary sanctions procedure, in a manner that merits an action or statement by the Committee or its members. Otherwise, others may conclude that such an – at best – cavalier application of the procedure is in fact permissible or expected conduct, which I think would not be beneficial, including for the Committee's appeals workload.  Sandstein  09:55, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply
I note that several editors have commented to the effect that they consider (at least some some) admin actions by me to be uncollegial. This concerns me, but their comments are not specific enough for me to understand which actions they take issue with and why. I'd like to be able to understand and address their concerns, and would appreciate it if they could explain them in more detail, and with reference to specific actions by me, on my talk page. Thanks,  Sandstein  17:29, 1 January 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by Hawkeye7

First, let me state how sick and tired I am of good content being deleted and destroyed by gnomes under spurious speedy deletion criteria. The procedure is clear; if the deletion is contested there should be a proper deletion review. Once this has been done, if the result is for the article to be kept, then the article cannot be speedily deleted per WP:G5. WP:SPEEDY lists seven criteria, and this is not one of them. Maintaining otherwise by refiling this is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:BATTLEGROUND at its worst. John Vandenberg, a former Arb, is one of the most polite and patient admins we have. Absence from Wikipedia at this time of year is both normal and acceptable. In this hemisphere, the Christmas/New Year period falls in our Summer holidays and many firms shut down for two or three weeks.

Because Sandstein has:

  1. Failed to respond promptly and civilly to queries about Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed;
  2. Shown an WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality by filing this absurd request;
  3. Not showing any inclination to participate in reasoned dispute resolution (or just let the stupid matter drop);
  4. Continued to pursue a vendetta when told to knock it off;
  5. Has shown overwhelming hubris and arrogance in performance of admin duties; and above all
  6. Failed to demonstrate a substantial record of content creation which raises issues of WP:NOTHERE.

I therefore recommend that WP:BOOMERANG is in order and that Sandstein be admonished. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 21:19, 27 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by Psychonaut

Irrespective of whether Sandstein's deletion of the page was appropriate, it seems absurd to invoke or apply WP:ARBEE here. Discretionary sanctions are normally meted out to those whose strong personal views relating to a given subject area lead them to disrupt the corresponding articles and discussion pages. In my observation Sandstein has demonstrated no such personal attachment to the topic of Eastern Europe, nor am I aware of any history of his disrupting pages in this area. If his actions relating to Why didn't you invest in Eastern Poland? were mistaken, or even intentionally disruptive, this could and should have been dealt with through other measures. As John Vendenberg has so far failed to provide the required clarification for his WP:ARBEE warning, I think it would be appropriate for the Committee to strike or overturn it, without prejudice to his pursuing a discussion or remedy in some other venue. — Psychonaut ( talk) 11:17, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Statement by Josve05a

  • On 11 May 2014 an editor raised the issue of the non-existence of an article on WP. Sandstein, the deleting admin, stated that it needed to be undeleted at WP:DRV.
  • On 1 November 2014 I independently started a deletion review. At the deletion review I raised issues relating to the notability and suitability of the article, and also re-assessed Sandstein's initial AfD closure
  • Sandstein made comments which insinuated I was proxying for banned editors.
  • Immediately after this, Sandstein gave me a discretionary sanctions warning. The lack of warning to any other editor made me feel that he was using his position as an administrator to intimidate me because I started the DRV and because I was a little critical of his initial deletion. I simply followed Sandstein's own advice to another editor to take the issue to DRV. This is not grounds for giving a baseless discretionary sanctions warning; Nick agreed and rescinded the warning given by Sandstein.
  • After another editor pulled the "racism" card in the DRV discussion, I asked Sandstein if he thought it was acceptable. He didn't do anything about it, and essentially claimed that the editor doesn't have a history of battleground disruption, when they do.

It is clearly evident that Sandstein is himself abusing the threat of discretionary sanctions as a tool to intimidate other editors. I agree with Hawkeye7 that WP:BOOMERANG has a place here. If Sandstein were to WP:DROPTHESTICK, things might be different, but at this point, that boomerang should be used given his continued battleground behavior at this very request and his very clearly demonstrated intimidation of other editors — I am certain is not an isolated case.

If Sandstein is willing to walk away from the carcass, this request should be closed off with the discretionary sanctions warning in place. If he is unwilling to do so I think an upgrade of the discretionary sanctions to a topic ban from the Eastern Europe topic area is in order, to give him time off from the entire topic area and to enable to re-assess his disruptive and intimidating behavior.

Statement by Giano

This is more of a comment than a statement, as I have been a long term observer rather than a participant in this sad and very sorry saga. However, it seems to me that any alerts/sanctions directed towards Sandstein need to be left firmly in place. He has consistently proved to be antagonistic towards Eastern European editors and editors of such pages. His aggressive, overpowering and often bullying behaviour (for example towards Josve05a is far from conducive to a collegiate atmosphere and only seems to cause further trouble and resentment. Sandstein is far too keen on the block button and totally intransigent in what are obviously, personal views. I see no good reason for him bringing this request. Giano (talk) 11:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply


Statement by Rich Farmbrough

I have to agree with Giano that there is a long term pattern of combative rather than collegial administrative actions by Sandstein, though I would say this is far more widespread than simply EE matters. I would urge Sandstein to remember that this is a co-operative endeavour, not one in which some editors are corralled by others into "desired behaviour". I would also urge @ Newyorkbrad: to disengage from his loathing (well known or otherwise) of Russavia: such feels are best left in Las Vegas.

A Happy New-Year! Rich  Farmbrough, 01:47, 1 January 2015 (UTC).

Statement by Fæ

My world view aligns with Rich's. Things are going badly wrong when trusted users cannot act in a collegiate manner and even worse when their first reaction is to reach for a stick and then ask for a bigger stick when that fails. It is a pity that Arbcom has no official trout to fix on user pages for six months. Perhaps soft remedies might be a smart idea for 2015?

@ Newyorkbrad: I had to raise an eyebrow at the idea that an Arbcom member would not automatically recuse and refrain from making any remark that might prejudice the outcome of a case when they have stated that they "loathe" a related party. We know Russavia can be supremely irritating, but this does not make him evil. Next time you are tempted to go after him, try dropping me or one of the established Commoners that work with him a friendly email; I'm sure you know most of us. It is likely to be a lot more effective when he has another silly poke at the bear. -- Fæ ( talk) 14:11, 1 January 2015 (UTC) reply

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I am actually minded to agree with part of Hawkeye's submission in this matter. Sandstein, I do not see what is to be achieved by this request, and I question why you are not letting this matter die the natural death for which it was on course. AGK [•] 23:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Sandstein, please just drop the stick. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:45, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I would vacate the warning, although there is an argument that I should recuse because of my well-known (and increasing) loathing of Russavia. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 18:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I also would vacate the warning. The DS system is designed for editorial actions, not admin actions. We explicitly banned sanctions that would "require the removal of user rights that cannot be granted by an administrator or restrict their usage", which necessarily implies that concerns about uses of admin tools should be taken to the committee, not the DS system. T. Canens ( talk) 02:41, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply
    • I removed the warning several days ago, by way of implementing the result of the previous hearing of this dispute. AGK [•] 08:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Please drop the stick. T Canens has sound reasoning, but as an additional note, I don't see any admin misconduct here. NativeForeigner Talk 10:05, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply
  • I agree that the warning should have been removed, but I don't see the need for sanctions. Now that AGK has removed the warning, I don't think there's anything more we need to do. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with GorillaWarfare. -- Euryalus ( talk) 05:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply
  • Also agreed with GorillaWarfare. I see nothing else that needs done here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:45, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply
  • I'll ask the Clerks to archive this now,   Roger Davies talk 06:50, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification request: Eastern Europe (February 2015)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by RGloucester at 23:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by RGloucester

The following request for clarification is submitted on the advice of Callanecc, following a report I submitted to AE.
Whilst the editor in question was plenty disruptive, I wonder why administrator Coffee blocked Russian editor1996 ( talk · contribs) According to his block notice, he issued the block under WP:ARBEE. However, it was not logged at WP:AC/DSL/2015 until I asked him about it. What's more, the editor was never issued an alert per WP:AC/DS. Coffee has not explained why the editor in question was blocked indefinitely, and I can see nothing that warrants such a block. This seems entirely out of process. Coffee responded that the block was per "IAR", but no reason was given for applying IAR, and I'm fairly certain that DS should not be issued in a willy-nilly manner. The editor in question had been present on Wikipedia for quite a while. He made only a few minor changes to Donbass war/Ukrainian crisis articles, and none of them particularly disruptive. I simply do not understand how this user was summarily blocked for no apparent reason. What's more, this was done under WP:ARBEE. The procedure for WP:ARBEE was completely ignored. I request that the Committee determine whether this application of DS was appropriate. If it was not, I request that Coffee be admonished, both for his inappropriate application of DS, and for his flippant behaviour in the face of accountability. RGloucester — ☎ 23:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC) reply
I think the suggestion by Courcelles is inappropriate, to say the least. This is a matter of principle. The block was inappropriately applied. Coffee must be admonished, and the sanction lifted. There were no grounds for a sanction. Ignoring the ARBEE issue, for a moment, can someone please tell me where they see grounds for an indefinite block in the blocked editor's edit history? RGloucester — ☎ 02:05, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply
Again, how is this acceptable? The user has no history of talk page engagement, so it is unlikely they can understand the unblocking process. The user was blocked for no reason. As Mr Davies noticed, no rationale was given other than "arbitration enforcement". If the "DS prohibitions no longer apply", what is the point of this block? Again, there was no rationale other than "arbitration enforcement", and no evidence of any kind of misconduct. How can you let this block stand? This is a travesty. RGloucester — ☎ 16:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by Coffee

I would restate what I had over at AE, but I find that not necessary as I believe most if not all of the Arbitrators here have looked at that. I will say that I was indeed forgetful regarding the proper DS procedure (it has been a minute since I performed one of those actions), and can assure you all I'll get it right the next time I feel it necessary to issue a block of this nature. The only other thing I'll state (even though I already stated this at AE) is that RGloucester himself stated at my talk page that "[Russian editor1996] was nothing but disruptive". Therefore, if he has any further questions regarding why that editor was blocked, he should consult our policies on DE. Happy Presidents Day to you all and it's good to see the system here still working. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Oh and lastly, all things taken into consideration, I'm fully behind the below motion made by Roger. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:05, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by Russian editor1996

Statement by Callanecc

I'll add what a bit of what I said on RGloucester's talk page:

The issue you want addressed is whether the Committee is happy with IAR being used to impose an out of process discretionary sanction. The sanction being out of process for a few reasons: it wasn't logged (which was fixed after you let them know), there was no alert and they weren't aware by other means, and discretionary sanctions can only be used for "blocks of up to one year in duration" not indefinite. The other issue here is that this block could have been placed as a normal admin action rather than as a discretionary sanction (unlike a TBAN for example). This looks to me like an admin coming back from a break and not familiarising themselves with a procedure which gives them wide ranging powers before using it, obviously that's just a guess though.

@ Courcelles: That would be my suggestion entirely. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 00:54, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by NE Ent

Russian editor1996

Could someone provide a single diff of why Russian editor1996 (RE96) is "plenty disruptive"? Looking at the their contributions I'm not seeing anything -- no POV pushing, no incivility, no edit warring, no posting to noticeboards -- just edits. Not perfect edits? Sure, but isn't that what we -- or at least used to -- encourage with WP:BEBOLD?

If we look at RE96's edit from a year and half ago, we see the addition of a fairly complete infobox, and comparing his additon to the current revision [54] seems to indicate no one has had much of a problem with that.

So the evidence suggests that RE96 is neither an "editor" nor anyone with any malice -- simply a "dabbler," if you will. File:Top_Wikipedians_compared_to_the_rest_of_the_community,_8_January_2014.svg shows us that dabblers have actually performed the overwhelming majority of (67%) of edits to the project. So how is blocking them without prior discussion benefiting the project? If we assume RE96 is a reasonably self-confident person without much of an agenda, why would they bother jumping through unblock hoops when they could simply spend their time somewhere else on the Internet? While I appreciate ya'll's willingness to declare the "arbcom" block an ordinary block, why not do the right thing and simply unblock RE96 until someone can explain why they should be blocked? "IAR" (or "because I felt like it") should not be considered as meeting the requirements of WP:ADMINACCT, nor a legit reason to be blocking folks.

Coffee

While we're here anyway: Arbcom 2014 stated "Administrators are expected to behave respectfully and civilly in their interactions with others. This requirement is not lessened by perceived or actual shortcomings in the conduct of others. Administrators who egregiously or repeatedly act in a problematic manner, or administrators who lose the trust or confidence of the community, may be sanctioned or have their access removed."

Coffee's statements to RGloucester [55], including why do you seem have a cactus lodged up your ass? ... Jesus christ, give it a rest. Or take it to AE if you like unnecessary drama. ... Hell, not even the editor in question has complained about being blocked. Yet, you're over here advocating for this guy like it's Christmas morning. Whatever floats your boat (I assume, drama)... clearly do not meet that standard. Although quite excessively snarky, I wouldn't say they're "egregious," nor am I aware of chronic history, such that I can argue we're in the admonishment zone, but a emphatic word or two (e.g. "Knock it off") seems appropriate. NE Ent 19:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • While I'm not particularly troubled by the lack of logging (admins occasionally forget to do that, especially when they're not really familiar with DS and the attendant body of bureaucratic rules, and anyone can log the restriction in their stead), no sanction may be validly imposed if the editor has not been warned or isn't otherwise aware of the fact that DS have been authorised for the area of conflict and it's up to the person asking for the imposition of DS or for the admins actually imposing them to prove that the person was indeed warned or was otherwise aware. Failure to do so should lead to the lifting of the sanction and the bollocking of the admin responsible.

    While there is a place for IAR in dealing with discretionary sanctions(*), to bypass the need for a warning is not it.

    (*)An example being my comment here, in spite of your lack of standing to file this request, since the sanctioned editor has not appealed his restriction. Salvio Let's talk about it! 11:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply

  • Concur with Salvio. Absent the mandatory pre-block alert, it's an out of process block. I'd like to hear from Coffee please on this.   Roger Davies talk 13:38, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply
    • I just went to turn this into an ordinary admin block but there's no specific misconduct to point to, either in the block log or the talk page notice so that's that option unavailable. (Unless someone wants to reblock of their own volition with a brand new rationale.) The best route forward now is to alert the editor to DS and overturn the block altogether. Thoughts?   Roger Davies talk 12:54, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  • It appears that Coffee won't be around until Tuesday, although his comments on his talk page and at AE are clearly relevant. He's stated that the talk page of one of the relevant articles mentions the sanction. But I agree it's an out of process block, although I see no reason to think it wasn't done in good faith. I don't think it's up to us to lift the block, particularly as the editor hasn't appealed. Dougweller ( talk) 14:11, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply
RGloucester, there's no rush. Nothing dreadful is going to happen if we wait for Coffee to reply. As for unblocking, again, the editor hasn't appealed. Providing everyone agrees it's within our remit, I agree we can convert it into an ordinary Admin block and let the community handle anything else. Dougweller ( talk) 09:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  • I also can't see where the editor has edited a talk page, and only one of the several articles edited recently, Talk:2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine, has the sanctions notice, and the article itself has no edit summary. So it's not at all clear how the editor would have known about any sanctions. Dougweller ( talk)
  • Fairly clear this is not a valid AE block for a couple reasons. I think we should convert it to a usual admin block, and then toss it back to usual community processes. Courcelles 18:33, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  • I'm in full agreement with Courcelles. Thryduulf ( talk) 13:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Motion (Eastern Europe)

For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.

On 11 February 2015, Coffee ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) blocked an editor relying on the discretionary sanctions provisions for Eastern Europe. As a discretionary sanctions block it was out of process as the editor had not been pre-notified of discretionary sanctions for the topic. Accordingly, the prohibitions on modification do not apply and the block may be modified by any uninvolved administrator. Coffee is advised to better familiarize themselves with the discretionary sanctions provisions before using this process again.

Enacted - -- L235 ( t / c / ping in reply) 00:40, 19 February 2015 (UTC) reply

Support:
  1. On passing, this text can be copied to User:Russian editor 1996's talk page, under the block notice as well as to Coffee's talk.   Roger Davies talk 16:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  2. Dougweller ( talk) 16:20, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  3. Thryduulf ( talk) 16:35, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  4. Courcelles 16:40, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  5. -- Guerillero | My Talk 17:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  6. Salvio Let's talk about it! 21:02, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  7. Works for me. I don't feel like an admonishment would be necessary. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  8. Simple mistake. Let's move on. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 22:29, 16 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  9. NativeForeigner Talk 03:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC) reply
  10. AGK [•] 11:14, 18 February 2015 (UTC) reply
Oppose:
Abstain:
Comments:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Amendment request: Eastern Europe (September 2017)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Aquillion at 06:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe#Log_of_article-level_discretionary_sanctions
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Information about amendment request

Statement by Aquillion

Mass killings under Communist regimes has been fully-protected for the past six years following an WP:AE request here. Putting aside the fact that full protection for content disputes is intended for a "cooling down" period and that indefinite full protection is not, I think, actually an available option for dealing with content disputes, most of the comments there (where there was relatively little discussion for such a drastic step) seem to support full protection for the period of one year - it has now been six. Nearly everyone involved in the dispute has long ago moved on, and while it's reasonable to assume that the topic and article will still be controversial, our dispute-resolution mechanisms have improved dramatically since 2011 - it seems silly to suggest that this article, alone, is so controversial that it needs to remain fully protected until the end of time. Anyway, I'm requesting that the restrictions on this article, including full protection, be removed. -- Aquillion ( talk) 06:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Oh, as an additional (and possibly more important) point, I would suggest looking at Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Page_restrictions and placing some sort of limit on the length a page can be full-protected under WP:AE without explicit authorization from ArbCom - while an admin's authority in executing WP:AE is necessarily broad, I don't believe that protecting a page for six years as a means of resolving a content dispute was intended to be something one administrator could decide to do on their own, even there. If it is intended to be an available option, we need to update WP:PP to say so; but I find it hard to believe there would be consensus for that. -- Aquillion ( talk) 06:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

In response to some of the people who argued against this (a position that genuinely startled me; I feel that this article fell through the cracks and that the idea of leaving a page full-protected for six years over a content dispute is genuinely and flatly indefensible), I'll reiterate what I said above. I don't believe that eternal full-protection is or was ever intended to be a method to resolve disputes; requiring constant re-assessment of consensus for every edit on a controversial article, in perpetuity, goes beyond what administrators are chosen for. Obviously it can be used as a temporary method to resolve disruptive disputes, but most of the people involved in the original dispute have long since moved on, and no one, I think, has shown that the dispute is currently ongoing or that removing protection is likely to result in significant disruption (and if it does, the page can always be locked again. And as contentious as this page is, we have since dealt with and resolved far more contentious articles and far more serious arguments without resorting to eternal protection - which part of the reason why I found the six-year-long protection on this article so startling. Why this page and not Donald Trump, or Climate Change, or Black Lives Matter or Gamergate Controversy or Falun Gong or Israel and its numerous sub-pages? If we have managed to resolve disputes on those pages without resorting to such a drastic measure, why do people think we can't do it here? Yes, the freely-editable nature of Wikipedia can sometimes be a pain to deal with, but I don't feel that permanently forcing all edits to go through administrator consensus-assessment is a viable answer to disputes.
The arguments some people are making below seems to be that first, eternal full protection is not burdensome, and second, that this topic is so inherently contentious that the page must remain locked forever. For those who argue that indefinite full protection is not burdensome because edits can be done via edit-requests, I strongly disagree - protection by its nature discourages new and casual users (who are unlikely to understand or be able to navigate to a draft or to know how the edit-protection system works), slows editing to a crawl for even relatively uncontroversial edits, wastes the time and energy of administrators, and generally discourages people from focusing on the protected page. And looking at the page's history, I feel it shows the damage full protection has done - the history here does not reflect the amount of improvement you would expect a page on a high-profile topic to show over the course of six years. For these reasons and more, full protection is an extreme and draconian measure taken only to shut down ongoing disruption; I don't feel that anyone can credibly argue that there is any ongoing disruption facing this page six years on. Some content disputes, yes, but well below the level that would require even the most basic steps in dispute resolution. "Some people are making bad deletion arguments" isn't the kind of thing that calls for indefinite application of one of the most draconian measures ArbCom has in its toolkit. - Aquillion ( talk) 19:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Vanamonde

I was briefly involved on that page post-protection, and I found that trying to build talk page consensus without the ability to edit the article was enormously difficult even for a minor point. The page does not meet our current standards for neutrality and due weight. There are good sources on the topic, that need to be accurately represented, rather than the hotchpotch that exists at the moment; but there is no realistic way to fix this. It's been long enough that I think Arbcom should consider lifting the protection. If the very idea is making some people go "Oh, heck no" then keep some restrictions to prevent the previous problems from recurring; a 1RR restriction + EC protection should do the trick. Vanamonde ( talk) 07:16, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

@ Iridescent: How is the difficulty of obtaining consensus a sign that anything is working? Few to none of the participants in that discussion were from the bad old days; they were newer folks, like myself, seeking to improve a page. We have no evidence, really, that the folks who disrupted the page the previous time will do so again; we have evidence that there are people who wish to make constructive edits who are being hindered by the protection. Continuing the protection can almost be read as "the page as it stands is better than any version likely to occur after unprotection"; and ARBCOM is supposed to confine itself to behavior, is it not? As I said above, we could easily place restrictions to prevent edit warring; or even, as Iridescent suggests, place the page on probation, so to speak, and reprotect it if needed. Vanamonde ( talk) 12:57, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply
@ Iridescent: Yes, the current restriction does a good job of preventing editors who want the page, if it exists at all, to read "mass killings under communism are a hoax perpetrated by capitalist regimes to undermine the fatherland" or some such crap. Such folks will never reach any consensus under the current system, and that's a good thing. BUT there are others (such as myself) who believe that (for instance) if a source has been disputed by others of similar weight, then Wikipedia should present the debate, rather than one of the sources in WIkipedia's voice. I raised these concerns with respect to a single lead paragraph on the talk page; it took me about 40 talk page posts, over the course of a month, to get that edit through. Long enough that I abandoned my efforts on that page, and began editing in places where the effort:outcome ratio was more acceptable. Editor time and effort is our most precious resource. We need a more efficient way to improve the page, unless there is evidence that that will lead to previous disruption continuing. Do we have such evidence? Most of the protagonists of that previous case are no longer active. Others have topic-related restrictions. Is there evidence of disruptive posting on the talk? Only by newbies, who can be dealt with through EC protection. Is there evidence of socking on related pages? Not that I am aware of; but nonetheless preventable through EC protection. Edit-warring can be dealt with through 1RR. Draconian measures may once have been necessary; I see no evidence that they are any longer. Vanamonde ( talk) 11:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Nug

Keep the status quo. Looking at the page history [56], the current mechanism appears to be working, the article is being improved. If Vanamonde finds it difficult to build talk page consensus under the current mechanism, then it certainly won't get easier to build consensus if the restrictions are removed. -- Nug ( talk) 08:38, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Iridescent

I'm uninvolved but wearily familiar with the Digwuren case, and would argue squarely in favor of keeping the status quo; if anything, this enforced take-it-to-the-talk-page is a remedy Wikipedia should be using more often, not less. If trying to build talk page consensus without the ability to edit the article was enormously difficult, that's a sign that the remedy is working. If the protection is lifted, it needs to be on the understanding that the moment the usual suspects on both sides re-start edit-warring, either the protection will be re-imposed or that edit-warring will be dealt with by means of long-term blocks. ‑  Iridescent 08:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

@ Vanamonde93: The issue with this page (and others targeted by the EEML) is the presence of numerous editors on both sides who are certain that the status quo is so egregiously wrong that they feel duty bound to change it; if people have convincing evidence that the status quo version of the page is Just Plain Wrong they should have no problem persuading other editors of this; if they can't persuade other editors of this it's a likely sign that the problem they intend to fix isn't as problematic as they think. This is one of the pages that triggered the most important sentence of WP:DIGWUREN (and arguably the most significant ruling in Arbcom's history with regards to the limit of AGF and the interaction of content disputes and user conduct issues), "In cases where all reasonable attempts to control the spread of disruption arising from long-term disputes have failed, the Committee may be forced to adopt seemingly draconian measures as a last resort for preventing further damage to the encyclopedia", and there's a reason this group of pages were the battleground on which that particular decisive battle for the future course of Wikipedia's governance was fought. Bluntly, if the editors can't get on with each other enough to cobble together consensus for changes, we don't want them editing these pages. ‑  Iridescent 15:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply
@ RhinoMind You mean, like the enormous FAQ section at the top of the talk page that explains in details what the issues are, why the page is protected, and that edits to that article need to be discussed on the talk page, or the massive pink-and-red box that pops up when you try to edit the page explaining the process one needs to go through to agree proposed changes? I'm not sure how much clearer we could make this. ‑  Iridescent 17:44, 27 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Thryduulf

I don't have an opinion about the specific page mentioned, but I do want to comment on the suggestion to "look at [...] placing some sort of limit on the length a page can be full-protected under WP:AE without explicit authorization from ArbCom".

AE blocks are limited in duration to 1 year, but occasionally situation warranting an indefinite block crop up at AE. Wheat happens in these cases is that an indefinite block is placed, but the restrictions on modifying an AE action last only for one year, meaning a single admin may unblock on their own countenance after that point. If there is a problem with long protections resulting from an AE action that are not being reduced or removed due to bureaucracy despite their being a rough consensus that protection is no longer required, then a similar 1-year limit to AE protections would seem to be the simplest resolution. I do not know whether this is actually a problem, I have not looked, but the comments above this one suggest that if the problem does exist this article is not an example of it. Thryduulf ( talk) 14:05, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

  • @ RhinoMind and Iridescent: only administrators get an edit button on full-protected pages. The "big pink box" is visible to non-administrators by clicking the "view source" button - but that is not likely to be intuitive. The box probably needs to be updated though - "Editors who violate this editing restriction may be sanctioned with escalating blocks or other discretionary sanctions per WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions." links to the original remedy superceded by standard discretionary sanctions in October 2011 and the case renamed in 2012. The current remedy is just an authorisation and contains no details, unlike the old one, the details being at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This is a matter for the article talk page though, where I will post shortly. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:48, 28 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Collect

Keep the status quo. The article used to be a regular battleground, and the fact is that "competing articles" of worse quality were the result of the compromises made. The concept that the prior discussions are now invalid is, I fear, quite the wrong way to go. Also note that some of the prior battlers are now looking here to find a means of deleting this article while not deleting Anti-communist mass killings and other articles which are far weaker than this one. A clear case where SQA is the best result. And allowing the editors who propose on the talk page that we simply delete the article without revisiting the prior discussions here would basically make a mockery of the past solution. Note that both "quick order deletion discussions" in 2010 resulted in clear Keep results. Collect ( talk) 14:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by RhinoMind

Lockings are of course undesirable, but I do not feel experienced enough with this procedure to have any meaningful opinion on how it should be administered. But ...

  • I suggest that Full protections/lockings are accompanied by a tag on the article-front (not TalkPage) that explains that there is some kind of dispute. Otherwise lockings would just enforce acceptance of articles that aren't acceptable and readers would assume that everything is ok, which isn't true.
  • Also, I suggest that some information on the TalkPage is included, so editors are informed on how to engage with the article during a locking. ie. they present concrete proposals for editorial changes on the TalkPage, complete with proper reliable sources and all, and after a discussion a consensus (of reason and argumentation, not feeling!) might be reached with time. If so, administrators can then install the editorial changes in the locked article. RhinoMind ( talk) 12:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC) reply
@ Iridescent: No. That is the short answer. You are not considering my #1 entry. The links you posted might perhaps do it in relation to my #2, although I don't understand how you got to your link number two where the edit-procedure is loosely explained. For me there isn't any Edit-button to click in the first place. RhinoMind ( talk) 21:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by AmateurEditor

I support removal of full protection, but then I opposed it being imposed at the time. I also support replacing it with Extended confirmed protection and 1RR for now, as suggested by Vanamonde93. I disagree with Aquillion that the disruptive editors have moved on to other things (some of them have just changed their usernames), but I don't see that as a reason to retain full protection. Full protection of the article may actually be shielding them from consequences by freeing them from having to disrupt progress on the article via reverts and edits to the article. Allowing editing may help expose those editors by giving them enough rope to hang themselves. Alternatively, it would allow them to edit productively if they chose to do so. If anything, the full protection has given disruptive editors effective veto power through the imposed edit-consensus process and some of the good-faith editors have moved on. AmateurEditor ( talk) 01:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by EdJohnston

I'm one of the admins who was active at AE back in 2011 when the decision was taken to apply indefinite protection to Mass killings under Communist regimes. The filer of this ARCA, User:Aquillion, has not stated that they tried any other of the prior steps suggested under WP:AC/DS#Appeals and modifications before filing here:

  • ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision or
  • request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN")

The administrator who closed the AE and applied the full protection is User:Timotheus Canens has been recently active, and should be easy to consult. The concept that it is shocking to keep an article protected this long probably reflects unawareness of the nastiness of some of the areas that are still under discretionary sanctions. In my opinion the Mass killings article easily falls under the 'gigantic waste of time for everyone' category though some well-intentioned content editors who were very diplomatic might be able to rescue it. In part the trouble is that some people consider this an artificial topic. We have other articles on mass deaths whose existence as an article is not questioned. For example, the article on World War II casualties is about a real topic and few people would criticize the title.

In terms of actual improvements carried out during the full protection, the history indicates there were at least 23 changes made (by admins) since 1 January 2013 in response to edit requests. For another opinion on what to do (if anything), see User talk:TheTimesAreAChanging#Mass killings under Communist regimes. TTAAC is one of the people who made content improvements to a draft that was kept open during the protection.

My opinion is that this article is hard to improve, not due to full protection, but due to the difficulty in finding agreement among editors. Lifting the protection would fix one problem but not the other. Instead of stasis and very slow progress, we might have constant thrashing at ANI and AE and some article bans being handed out to individuals. But then again I could be wrong. EdJohnston ( talk) 19:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC) EdJohnston ( talk) 19:06, 28 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by T. Canens

The protection was placed following the AE thread Ed linked to because it was necessary to enforce the "consensus required" restriction previously placed on the page (by Sandstein). I see that some commenters seem to think - incorrectly - that the two are one and the same.

I don't have time to review the past several years' worth of history right now, so I express no view on whether Sandstein's restriction is still needed. However, as long as that restriction remains, I'm strongly opposed to lifting the full protection, which adds only minimal inconvenience over the restriction, and, based on previous experience, is essential to its consistent enforcement. T. Canens ( talk) 04:35, 30 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by Sandstein

I was the admin who some years back added a "consensus required" page restriction as a discretionary sanction to this article. I've not followed the article for a long time and I don't know whether the restriction is still required. I don't mind another admin or the ArbCom modifying or removing the restriction as they deem appropriate. I likewise don't have an opinion as to whether the page protection at issue here is (still) appropriate. In general terms, I find it preferable to sanction individual edit-warriors rather than to lock down a page for everybody, but I must assume that the editing conditions were at some time bad enough that T. Canens and I considered it necessary to impose page-level restrictions.  Sandstein  12:24, 30 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by SMcCandlish

"Shine a light, and the roaches will run." Support removing the full protection and replacing it with extended confirmed protection and 1RR. Even one year is over-long for full protection. The solution to bad apples mucking up a page is to fish out the bad apples, not to make the page mostly unusable. It's already under DS, so dealing with long-term problematic editors in the topic will be comparatively easy and swift. The problem of the article being effectively frozen in a poor state and very difficult to improve is real. To the extent the topic may be artificial, that's a content matter and not an ArbCom issue. It is fixable by splitting (e.g. mass killings by the Soviet Union, by the PRC, etc., are certainly valid topics, since they proceeded from specific governments' policies, without any WP:SYNTH in play). No opinion on the bureaucracy questions about AE limits, auto-expirations, etc.  —  SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:26, 4 September 2017 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • My first reaction to this request was that it shouldn't be necessary for any page on a wiki to be full-protected for more than six years. My second reaction, after reviewing the comments above and skimming the page history, is that this particular page may indeed be exceptional in which case we would presume that the AE admins are acting sensibly. It might be useful to have some input from other admins who have been active on the topic-area in general and this page in particular. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 16:01, 28 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • I had a pretty similar reaction to NYB. At first I figured I would definitely be supporting removing full protection from a page after multiple years. After reading some responses here, and seeing that the talk page of the article is fairly active and collaborative, it might actually be an exceptional case where this is a net benefit. I'd like to hear some more thoughts, but if we do try reducing the restriction on that page, I'd like to see it come with a condition where protection can easily be reapplied if the removal doesn't work. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:51, 1 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • My thought process for AE appeals which arrive at the Committee is pretty straight-forward. We (ArbCom) are at the end of the appeals process for AE sanctions, similar to case requests. Therefore, my considerations are twofold: (a) where processes followed in the application of the sanction and in any subsequent appeals and (b) was the sanction imposed a reasonable exercise of administrative discretion. In this instance the answer to both questions is yes, so I !vote to decline this appeal request and recommend it that be taken to the admin who originally imposed the sanction or to WP:AE.

    On the topic of having a limit to the amount of time page protections (and other sanctions on pages) can be placed I'm not convinced that's a good way forward. Firstly, blocks are more contentious and have a great affect on people than other sanctions and are, generally, more difficult to lift. Secondly, administrators aren't authorised to impose some page sanctions (such as, 1RR and 'consensus required') allowed by discretionary sanctions so having them expire after a year would mean that they expire (not that it changes to allow any admin to remove them). I'd also imagine that the imposing admin, AE admins and editors at AN would be very willing to amend/lift page restrictions which have been in place for long periods of time (especially when compared to blocks). Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 10:52, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply

  • I also decline with the same concerns as my colleagues above. I agree with Callanecc that a time limit after which page protections expire is not generally a good idea and for the same reasons. Doug Weller talk 11:38, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Decline The original admins who implemented the full protection and consensus required restrictions have given statements. The point of discretionary sanctions is to provide the community with the tools to handle some of our most serious and controversial areas of editing. The full protection should be removed via discussion at WP:AE, rather than ArbCom stepping in. The actual protection was not implemented by the case, rather the implementation of discretionary sanctions. Specifically on that point, there's nothing for us to clarify or amend. Mkdw talk 21:02, 5 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Decline , with the same general view as Callanecc about time length limits for protection. Some pages are going to be problems for longer periods than one year, and this is one of them. DGG ( talk ) 18:22, 12 September 2017 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification request: Eastern Europe and Balkans discretionary sanctions scope (February 2019)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by RGloucester at 16:07, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe
Macedonia

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by RGloucester

This is a matter of housekeeping, and I hope that the honourable members of the Arbitration Committee can assist me by providing some clarification. Recently, I filed a request for arbitration enforcement relating to the article " Origin of the Romanians". In making preparations to file that request, I came across the strange situation whereby I knew discretionary sanctions applied to the relevant article, but I was not sure which of the two related and existing discretionary regimes was most appropriate to use. I expect that's somewhat confusing, so let me explain a bit further.

There are discretionary sanctions regimes in place for articles related to Eastern Europe, and for the Balkans. Unfortunately, the definitions of both ' Eastern Europe' and 'the Balkans' are ambiguous and potentially overlapping. This produced a strange result whereby the relevant editor had originally been notified of the Eastern Europe regime, but was later notified of the Balkans regime in relation to his edits of the same article. In any case, this ambiguity is really not desirable for discretionary sanctions. The definition of 'Eastern Europe' specifically has actually been a matter of substantial dispute on Wikipedia before. One can easily imagine a situation whereby one could 'wikilawyer' about the validity of a notification of the existence of one of the regimes, in an effort to avoid sanctions. I wonder if the the Arbitration Committee can do one of two things: either clearly define the scope of each regime, or merge the two. This way, administrators enforcing sanctions and editors seeking their enforcement will not have to grapple with the ambiguities inherent in the terms 'Eastern Europe' and 'the Balkans', and will be able to avoid a bureaucratic nightmare. Thank you in advance for your consideration of this matter.

@ AGK: In response to your question, I endorse the analysis by Thryduulf. RGloucester — ☎ 20:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
@ Power~enwiki: Romania is considered part of the Balkans and Eastern Europe in most definitions of both terms. The use of "broadly construed" means that there is no doubt that Romanian-related topics are presently under sanctions. RGloucester — ☎ 20:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
@ EdJohnston: I respect your judgement. Here's the problem I foresee. In the specific case of Iovaniorgovan, he was notified of ARBEE sanctions almost as soon as he started editing here. When his participation in the debate at Origin of the Romanians became increasingly problematic, an administrator DeltaQuad ( talk · contribs) notified him of the Balkans sanctions, seemingly unaware of the previous alert, or otherwise disagreeing with the scope of the alert applied, therefore delaying the enactment of sanctions on Iovaniorgovan, and causing other long-term editors to be swept up in his messes. In addition, we now have a strange situation where the page-level restriction that was applied at Origin of the Romanians was logged under the Balkans case log, but the topic bans on Iovaniorgovan and Cealicuca are logged under ARBEE. It's simply a bureaucratic mess, and it should be cleaned up. No one should have to roll the dice to decide which of these regimes to apply in a given case, and logging should make coherent sense, not be scattered all over the place. These sorts of messes make it harder for editors understand DS, and indeed, harder for them to participate in DS areas, for fear of falling into a Kafka-esque trap. We owe it to our editors to have a rationalised system of enforcement. That's why I'm asking for clarification. RGloucester — ☎ 22:25, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
As a further example for Mr Johnston, here is a hypothetical. Let's say that someone was editing a Romania-related article, like Origin of the Romanians, and received an ARBEE alert. They then go on to make substantial and problematic edits to articles about the Yugoslav Wars. Would that ARBEE alert still be valid, or would a new Balkans alert be required? These sorts of grey areas...are really not desirable in a DS regime. RGloucester — ☎ 00:14, 24 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • I'd like to thank the honourable members of the Arbitration Committee for taking up this matter. In response to Future Perfect at Sunrise, whom I greatly respect as an administrator, I'd like to say that your approach is indeed the best one. However, because the nature of the DS scopes implemented by the cases does not align with the specific disputes that brought on the cases, such a methodology is difficult to implement in practice. In as much as the scope of the sanctions is not "conflicts that – directly or indirectly – stem from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the mix of nationalities that was left behind", but "anything related to the Balkans, broadly construed", &c., grey areas quickly become apparent. I presume that the intent behind the broader scope of the sanctions, relative to the locus of the disputes that brought about the cases, was that the disputes that occurred provided evidence to suggest further disputes in the broader topic area were likely, and that it would be best to implement broader sanctions as a preventative measure. Whether that was a correct course of action is not for me to decide, but I will say that, in particular, the existence of the ARBEE sanctions was of a great help in controlling the outbreaks of disruptive editing that occurred at the time of the Ukrainian crisis of 2014...despite the original case not having had anything to do with that topic. In any case, I would advise the Committee to be more careful in its crafting of DS scopes in future, making clear whether it intends to limit such scopes to the locus of the dispute that occurred, or apply sanctions to a broader topic area as a preventative measure. RGloucester — ☎ 18:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • @ AGK: I understand what your motion is trying to do, but I think you need to clarify the logging procedure. Will the logs be unified, or kept separate? RGloucester — ☎ 17:51, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply
@ AGK: I find your proposed change more undesirable than even the present mess, in line with what was said by Mr Rob. As for why, it will do nothing to solve the problem about when to apply each regime, will do nothing to sort out the scattered logging procedures that I described above, and will in fact only make this whole business MORE confusing. The goal of a merger was to eliminate questions about which regime to apply in areas of geographical overlap, like Romania, as demonstrated by Thryduulf below, and also to centralise logging so as to avoid the situation of having multiple sanctions related to one particular article logged under different regimes. Your proposal will leave parallel bureaucracies in place, seemingly for no purpose, and leave behind a mess for others to sort through. The idea that updating templates, &c., is too much work is very sad. ArbCom established sanctions, and has a responsibility to the community to maintain those sanctions in a rational way. If you need my help cleaning up templates, I can offer it, as I have experience in that area. In any case, I support Mr Rob's motion as the most sensible approach. The other alternative I can forsee would be to clarify the scopes of the two cases to make them easier to differentiate, but the merger seems to have more support, and is easier to implement. RGloucester — ☎ 16:45, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by power~enwiki

I recommend the committee make a motion of clarification here. The articles on Eastern Europe and Balkans are both unclear to whether Romania is part of the region. Neither of the disputes leading to discretionary sanctions particularly apply to Romania; the Balkans dispute primarily involved Bulgaria, Greece and the former Yugoslavia. The Eastern Europe dispute primarily involved Poland, Russia, and the Baltic States; the more recent crisis in the Ukraine has also fallen under those sanctions.

I'm not certain that Romania falls under any Discretionary Sanctions at this time. An explicit list of countries affected (rather than a region name) may be necessary. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 19:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Thryduulf (re: Eastern Europe/The Balkans)

Looking at our articles about Eastern Europe and the Balkans, there is indeed overlap between them. Taking a reasonably (but not excessively) broad interpretation some or all of the following countries are included (sometimes depending on context):

Country Eastern Europe Balkans
Albania Yes Yes
Belarus Yes No
Bosnia and Herzegovina Yes1 Yes
Bulgaria Yes Yes2
Croatia Yes Yes3
Czechia Yes4 No
East Germany Yes5 No
Estonia Yes6 No
Greece Yes1, 7 Yes8
Hungary Yes4 No
Kosovo Yes1 Yes
Latvia Yes6 No
Lithuania Yes6 No
Macedonia Yes1 Yes
Moldova Yes No9
Montenegro Yes1 Yes
Poland Yes No
Romania Yes Yes3
Russia Yes10 No
Serbia Yes1 Yes
Slovakia Yes4 No
Slovenia Yes Yes3
Turkey No Yes2, 10
Ukraine Yes No

Notes:

  1. Geographically (sometimes) South Eastern Europe if this is distinguished
  2. Usually only in geographical contexts
  3. Only in (some) political contexts
  4. Geographically usually Central Europe when this is distinguished, Eastern Europe when it isn't
  5. Prior to reunification only
  6. Only in Soviet/Cold War contexts
  7. Only in religious contexts
  8. Only the mainland in geographic contexts; included in only a few political contexts (most notably Macedonia naming dispute)
  9. Very occasionally included in political contexts, but should not be for discretionary sanctions purposes
  10. Only the European part

Based on this, Eastern Europe (when South Eastern Europe is not distinguished separately) is a near complete superset of the Balkans, so merging these into a single authorisation of "Eastern Europe including the Balkans and the Macedonia naming dispute." would resolve all the issues the OP raises. No actual restrictions would be altered, only the case they are logged under would change. Possibly those who are formally aware of only one scope would need to be informed they are now formally aware of the newly combined scope, but not definitely and this would only be a one-time thing. Thryduulf ( talk) 20:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply

  • I agree completely with RGloucester - either the scope of both restrictions should be clarified so there is no overlap, or the restrictions should be merged into one (and Rob's proposal is a sensible way to achieve this). AGK's proposal is the worst of both worlds as it increases the bureaucracy and makes the confusion worse: at present there is no ambiguity that sanctions related to Poland should be logged under the EE case, if this proposal were to pass then there would be as sanctions could be placed under either or both cases; all the while it would not resolve the existing ambiguity over issues related to e.g. Romania. Thryduulf ( talk) 17:06, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by EdJohnston

Agree with the views of User:AGK. There is little upside to modifying the existing sanctions, and a possible downside. Even the present request doesn't give a persuasive reason why a change is required. In the recent AE about Origin of the Romanians nobody made the argument that the topic wasn't covered under WP:ARBEE. Even if ARBEE and ARBMAC do overlap, it's hard to see that as a problem.

Many of the existing DS are about nationalism. In the ideal case, we would have some kind of universal sanction that could be applied to nationalist editing anywhere in the world. EdJohnston ( talk) 21:15, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Fut.Perf

Speaking as somebody who has helped enforcing both sets of sanctions numerous times, I think there's rarely be much of a problem in determining which rule to apply, even if they overlap. For me, the crux of the matter is really not a mechanistic application of what country counts as belonging to what continental region. Those are pretty arbitrary attributions, and to take just one example, you will rarely find Greece described as belonging to "Eastern Europe", even though obviously its geographical longitude is well within the range of other countries that are. What matters is really more the nature of the underlying political struggles motivating the disruption we find on Wikipedia. Speaking broadly, "Eastern Europe" sanctions have mostly been invoked dealing with ethnic/national conflicts that broke up – directly or indirectly – in the wake of WWII, the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, or the collapse of the Soviet Union. The "Balkans" sanctions have been invoked dealing with conflicts that – directly or indirectly – stem from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the mix of nationalities that was left behind. I'd personally be opposed to merging the two sanction rules. It shouldn't really matter in practice, if it wasn't for the practice of some admin colleagues (unnecessary and not really advisable, in my view, but still common) to hand out sanctions whose scope is always automatically identical with the entire set of topics covered by the DS regime. For instance, instead of topic-banning somebody from Serbian-Croatian conflicts, which might be entirely sufficient in an individual case, they always automatically reach for a topic ban from all Balkan topics, because that's what the DS rule applies to. I'd find it regrettable if these colleagues were to take a merger of the two DS rules as indicating that in the future all such sanctions should be handed out straight for "all of Eastern and Southeastern Europe", which would almost certainly be overreaching in most cases. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe and Balkans discretionary sanctions scope: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe and Balkans discretionary sanctions scope: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • On an initial review, discretionary sanctions in Macedonia pertain to the Balkans region, which is the Southeastern Europe peninsula. Treating the Balkans as part of Eastern Europe seems to be a stretch. Are you sure that the two overlap? The article seems to be a bad test case: it relates to the distant origin of a people, which involves by its nature a broad range of geography. While awaiting comment, I'll say generally that I need to be convinced of good reason for changing any discretionary sanctions remedy. The changes can themselves cause short-term dispute and confusion, and defaulting to no change is a sensible practice. AGK  ■ 17:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Special thanks indeed to Thryduulf for sharing a useful, methodical assessment of the area. To move us towards a conclusion (one way or the other), I will draft a motion shortly. AGK  ■ 11:06, 6 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Re. logging and RGloucester: I have proposed amending each case separately, without a disruptive "merger". In practice enforcement requests are always made in the context of a single arbitration remedy – ignoring all others – and so having two with the same scope will have no effect. At the same time, it avoids the need to update a bunch of notices, insist that existing sanctions are still in effect, and change how daily enforcement is carried out. AGK  ■ 18:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Per Thryduulf's assessment, merging the two DS areas into something like "Eastern and Southeastern Europe" sounds like it would make enforcement a bit easier. But that does highlight their extremely broad scope: the history, society, geography, etc. of half a continent. Both motions seem to have been based on the actions of a handful of editors and the Balkans case is now over a decade old. Perhaps it's time to consider rescinding or refining these. –  Joe ( talk) 21:03, 23 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Merging the two makes sense to me as it doesn't increase the scope of the two DS simply puts them together for convenience and clarity. And it would be helpful to include a list of the countries involved. I am comfortable leaving the DS in place as it does not restrict editing, but is there to be used in case of future problems, and there may well be future problems. SilkTork ( talk) 09:55, 24 January 2019 (UTC) reply
  • I think merging the two as SilkTork said would make sense for clarity sake. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 13:02, 6 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Thank you Thryduulf for your extremely useful table. GorillaWarfare  (talk) 20:09, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
    • Yes, thank you. I want to note that it was extremely helpful in parsing this situation. ~ Rob13 Talk 04:24, 13 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Motions: Eastern Europe and Balkans scope

Proposals withdrawn in favour of (3). AGK  ■ 20:21, 16 February 2019 (UTC) reply

(1) Proposed:

At Amendment II in Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans.

Support
  1. Proposed. I take Fut.Perf's point, but this topic has been trying for the Wikipedia community. On balance, I am content with drawing the lines slightly more broadly than may be required in every case. AGK  ■ 10:30, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Oppose
  1. ~ Rob13 Talk 17:16, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  2. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 14:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  3. Prefer option 3. GorillaWarfare  (talk) 20:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Abstain
Comments
  • Appeals or sanctions under the EE case should continue to be logged as Eastern Europe. The scope of other cases or authorised discretionary sanctions has no effect. AGK  ■ 18:09, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply

(2) Proposed:

At Remedy 3 in Macedonia, the Balkans is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans.

Support
  1. Proposed. AGK  ■ 10:30, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Oppose
  1. ~ Rob13 Talk 17:16, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  2. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 14:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  3. Prefer option 3. GorillaWarfare  (talk) 20:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Abstain
Comments
  • And here, appeals or sanctions under the EE case should continue to be logged as Macedonia. The scope of other cases or authorised discretionary sanctions has no effect. AGK  ■ 18:09, 9 February 2019 (UTC) reply

(3) Proposed:

At Amendment II in Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe is replaced as text by Eastern Europe or the Balkans. Remedy 3 in Macedonia is superseded by this amendment.

For these motions there are 9 active arbitrators. 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Majority reference
Abstentions Support votes needed for majority
0–1 5
2–3 4
4–5 3
Enacted: Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:05, 17 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Support
  1. ~ Rob13 Talk 17:16, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  2. This seems like the neater solution. –  Joe ( talk) 13:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  3. This overall seems to be the way to go. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 14:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  4. I prefer this. It's a bit more effort to deal with the existing notices, but should make things simpler going forward. GorillaWarfare  (talk) 20:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC) reply
  5. I explained in the arb discussion section why this is undesirable. AGK  ■ 07:34, 10 February 2019 (UTC) Switched from oppose. Reconsidered based on community comment about the difficulty that might be caused by two remedies covering the same area. AGK  ■ 19:53, 16 February 2019 (UTC) reply
Oppose
Abstain
Comments
  • Proposing as an alternative to 1/2 without comment on whether we should do this at all, to avoid the odd situation of authorizing the exact same discretionary sanctions in two different cases. That just seems like a mess waiting to be cleaned up when some future Committee changes the sanctions in one place but forgets about the other. I hope to be able to look at this situation and actually support or oppose in the near future rather than maintaining my current inactivity on the matter. ~ Rob13 Talk 04:17, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
    • I've placed my votes after a review of the situation. This seems to be an improvement to me, reducing the overlap while not "losing" anything. Whether the DS should be removed entirely seems to be a separate question, and one best answered after we know how these DS operate when enacted in a less confusing manner. As a point of clarification on awareness, note that editors who were "aware" of the Balkans discretionary sanctions will need to be made aware of the Eastern Europe and Balkans sanctions before they can be subject to DS. This is a small hiccup, but it actually is rather sensible, since Eastern Europe and the Balkans is a superset of the Balkans. I consider it a happy accident that this merger would likely result in editors being made aware of the sanctions active in the broader topic area they're editing. ~ Rob13 Talk 17:22, 10 February 2019 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Amendment request: Eastern Europe (May 2019)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Icewhiz at 10:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Amendments
  2. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Amendments
  3. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Amendments
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request



Information about amendment request
  • sourcing restriction for non-English sources for Jew-Polish relations.
  • 500/30 protection for Jew-Polish relations.
  • 1RR for Jew-Polish relations.

Statement by Icewhiz

In the past year, editing in the topic of Jewish history in Poland has been difficult. While WP:NOENG is policy - stating a preference for English sources of the same quality when available (generally the case for Holocaust history), and quotation requirements when challenged - NOENG has not been followed in this topic area. Non-English sources of a dubious nature have been inserted into articles, even BLPs, and in some cases, the content has failed verification: not present in the cited sources, contradicted by others. Requests for quotations and a rationale for use have gone unanswered, or dismissed with "the source is reliable" or "WP:AGF and Offline sources".

Admins at AE are reluctant to dive into such issues. This recent case was closed by @ Sandstein: with: "Personally, the matter is too complicated and too much tied to content disputes for me to feel comfortable taking action; AE is better suited to relatively straightforward cases of misconduct." [57]. I understand the sentiment here; dealing with users introducing content that fails WP:V when the cited sources aren't online, aren't in English, and/or are very long is difficult. The challenge of tackling source misrepresentations is evident in past AE threads:

List of prior AE actions
  1. GizzyCatBella 26 April 2018 - 1RR violation of page level restriction + claims of fringe sources. Result (purely on the 1RR claim) - "GizzyCatBella blocked 72 hours".
  2. E-960, 8 May 2018 - Complaint alleged violation of 1RR article restriction, coupled with BLP and RS concerns. Closed with a voluntary 72 hour restriction. Note admin discussion on non-English sources without translations.
  3. Icewhiz 9 May 2018 - Complaint alleged removal of Chodakiewicz as a source in a number of articles was inappropriate. Defendant counter-complained about filer's use of WP:SPSes. closed: "Editors directed to WP:RSN to discuss Chodakiewicz....
  4. E-960 12 May 2018 - Complaint alleged violation of 1RR in article with said restriction. Result: "E-960 needs to be more careful when reverting.".
  5. Icewhiz 14 May 2018 - Complaint alleged removal of Anna Poray as a source from over 60 articles was inappropriate as well as alleging Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray was made in bad faith. While admins discuss the misuse of SPS angle, the closing admin remarks "The charge of misusing SPS isn't something I'd act on, because it's close to a content dispute and it's not realistic to expect admins here to check the reliability of this number of sources; that would need an ArbCom case.". Closed due to the reported PAs as "Poeticbent (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from the history of Poland during World War II, including the Holocaust in Poland, for six months.".
  6. François Robere 2 June 2018 - complaint alleged violation of "consensus required provision". Discussion diverged into use of questionable sources. Admins discuss at length possible sourcing restrictions ( WP:MEDRS-like, plus suggestion to limit sources only to English, as "To be clear, I don't think that Polish-language sources are inherently unreliable, but they can't be evaluated by most admins here, including me. That impedes arbitration enforcement insofar as source reliability is concerned.". The AE closes with "More editing restrictions on the article applied.". The following restriction is placed on an article level: diff "Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance." + "Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans.
  7. 24 June 2018 - Filer alleged misrepresentation of sources. In this particular instance this was seen as beyond a "content dispute". Closed as "GizzyCatBella is topic-banned from the World War II history of Poland".
  8. Icewhiz 3 July 2018 - Filer alleged misrepresentation of sources. Respondent files diffs alleging a misrepresentation in other instances. Closed as "no action" since - "It's quite clear that admins here will not examine the details and nuances of the interpretation of sources in what is, to most, a foreign language and a wholly unfamiliar topic. AE is good at dealing with reasonably obvious misconduct, but not so good at dealing with issues that need an advanced degree in history or some other specialized field to resolve..
  9. Volunteer Marek 5 July 2018 - Filer alleged NPA and V issues, accompanied by counter-allegations. Admins discuss possible sourcing restrictions (e.g. academic, English only) to the topic area based on previous article level restriction to Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. NeilN notes - "That clause was a watered down version of Sandstein's suggestion to limit source-evaluation to English-language academic sources only. He correctly noted that most admins here can't read Polish when the issue of source misrepresentation comes up.". The discussion on sourcing leads to no conclusion. Closed with: "Volunteer Marek and Icewhiz are topic-banned from the history of Poland in World War II (1933-45) for three months for treating Wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND".

Most of the complaints were on sourcing quality and misrepresentations of sources, while editors were sanctioned for a variety of conduct issues, such as personal attacks and battleground behavior. Admins discussed the possibility of sourcing restrictions (academic and/or English only), or enforcing misrepresentation of sources. A sourcing restriction was applied to Collaboration in German-occupied Poland where the situation did improve following the restriction, but no sourcing restriction was applied elsewhere. Disputes in the topic area have involved numerous other articles (WWII history, geographic locations, BLPs in the field).

I will note that use of sources is further complicated by the legislation which criminalized publication in Polish media of claims of Polish complicity in crimes committed during the Holocaust. [1] [2] [3]

There are excellent mainstream Polish-language academic sources, referenced by academia outside of Poland. In fact, the Polish Wikipedia often has a balanced representation of the subject matter (see this 2015 oped on a long-running WP:HOAX in Stawiski: "Surprisingly, the Polish Wikipedia articles evidence greater willingness to admit Polish participation in massacres of Jews." corrected in 2018) Unfortunately, sources in Polish introduced to English Wikipedia are often not high-quality mainstream academic writing, but rather right-wing newspaper op-eds, interviews, blog posts, and pulp journals/books.

Please see general examples of misrepresenting sources: (more are available on request)

Diffs of source use failing verification + subsequent reverts / lack of quotations and discussion
  1. Non-EC user added [58] (discussed at AE here, but not subsequent reverts/verification). Challenged as "OR, misrepresentation of sources [59]. Despite the challenge - reverted and reverted by established users. Requests at Talk:History of the Jews in Poland#Recent edits for verifying quotations were not met (over several weeks). I personally accessed many of the cited sources and ascertained the content was not present in the source prior to reverting (a difficult and time-consuming task). The reverting users admitted they did not verify the text - here and here.
  2. diff - removal of Chełmno extermination camp's purpose to exterminate Poles. Sourced to Polish language source - which doesn't contain this claim. This misrepresentation was entered back in 2013. This illustrates how a false citation in non-English can last quite a while.
  3. Editor challenges REDFLAG material in July 2017, rolledback in Feb 2019. Source for "eventually both Poles and Jews were classified as subhuman and targeted for extermination..." is a municipal website in Polish - source which doesn't contain anything of the sort.
  4. challenge of text "systematically exterminated people (primarily Jews and ethnic Poles) they regarded Untermensch.". text returned with a whole bunch of Polish language sources (which do not seem to support the text (they do support persecution of Polish elites - not all Poles). tagged verify source. request on talk 4 March per WP:NOENG for rationale of use of these sources + quotations - no response as of now.

Possibly disruptive edits by non-EC users:

Edit Warring & non-EC edits
  1. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Historyk IPN/Archive - editor from IPN (an organization promoting revisionism in Polish-Jewish relations, [4] that was recently involved in the disruption of an academic conference in Paris [5]) - socking and adding WP:SPAM links to a website promoting "the truth".
  2. Edit warring on BLP - despite clear lack of consensus for inclusion (and even possibly consensus to exclude) - [60] (and a number of threads below), multiple re-insertions of challenged text which is based on interviews/op-eds in right-wing Polish media - [61] [62], [63], [64], [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70] (note the rejection of the Holocaust studies journal (including two pieces by Polish authors) as a source in preference to a right-wing internet portal, a small Polish radio station, Polish League Against Defamation, and biznesistyl.pl), [71], [72], [73], [74], [75].
  3. [76] - adding content sourced to TVNiezaleznaPolonia Canada YouTube channel. Source is an interview in Polish with English subtitles, and the content inserted is a denial (of the generally accepted) Polish role in Jedwabne pogrom.
  4. [77] - IP adds content to Jedwabne claiming this was "instigated by the Soviet-backed Communist security corps" (well after the Red Army retreated in disarray).
  5. [78] [79] [80] - non-EC adds content to two BLPs + 1 institutions based on media coverage of upcoming Gontarczyk column in wSieci (context on wSieci: [6]). Despite challenges by several users, this is re-inserted.
  6. Jan Grabowski (historian) - conspiracy theories (revdelled) at 21:35, 23 February 2019‎, 11:57, 25 February 2019‎ , 12:24, 25 February 2019‎.
  7. There is also long-term (in one article - over a year), slow-pace edit-warring by an IP on a number of articles - @ Ymblanter: and @ Drmies: were involved in Naliboki massacre and Polish Center for Holocaust Research recently (see also User talk:Icewhiz#Polish Center for Holocaust Research).
  8. EW report - 6 reverts in a short time span by an IP in the topic area (removing well sourced information), coupled with 3 reverts in the EW noticeboard. Per TU-nor possibly linked to the 64-bit IP described above, which seems plausible.

References

  1. ^ Poland Holocaust law: France criticises 'ill advised' text, BBC, 7 Feb 2018
  2. ^ Gebert, Konstanty. "Projecting Poland and its past: Poland wants you to talk about the “Polocaust”." Index on Censorship 47.1 (2018): 35-37.
  3. ^ Hackmann, Jörg. "Defending the “Good Name” of the Polish Nation: Politics of History as a Battlefield in Poland, 2015–18." Journal of Genocide Research 20.4 (2018): 587-606.
  4. ^ Ambrosewicz-Jacobs, Jolanta. "The uses and the abuses of education about the Holocaust in Poland after 1989." Holocaust Studies (2019): 1-22.
  5. ^ La Pologne minimise les incidents lors d’un colloque sur la Shoah à Paris, Le Monde, 4 March 2019
  6. ^ Polish magazine's 'Islamic rape of Europe' cover sparks outrage, Guardian, 18 Feb 2018

I request that ARCA consider the following:

  1. 500/30 protection for the topic of Polish-Jewish relations.
  2. 1RR for the topic of Polish-Jewish relations.
  3. A sourcing restriction. Some possibilities:
    1. Revert restriction - editors performing reverts of challenged material are responsible for verifying the contents. Failure to verify, and provide supporting quotes, is sanctionable.
    2. consensus for non-English sources: In disputes over foreign-language sources in the subject area of Polish-Jewish relations, disputed sources are removed unless and until there is a consensus to include them. (similar to WP:NOCONSENSUS EL policy).
    3. Only English-language academic sources for historical subjects.
    4. Excluding low-quality non-English sources - Blogs, websites, and media sources that are subject to censorship (e.g. see the WP:HISTRS proposal). High-quality English-language sources can be found in most topics.

Such sourcing restrictions will turn "content disputes" on foreign-language sources that are difficult for enforcing admins to verify themselves into actionable violations of a sourcing restriction. As copious and numerous English language sources are available in Holocaust studies, a restriction won't limit our source pool much; reputable non-English writers get translated to English or analyzed in English language secondary works. Consistent introduction of material that fails WP:V should be taken seriously, however expecting admins at AE to read 50 pages in a foreign language is not reasonable. Our goal should be that Wikipedia conforms to mainstream academic scholarship on the Holocaust, and I believe such measures would be a step forward. A limited measure in ARCA regarding sourcing (in line with AE admin comments over several cases) & non-EC edits might lead to fewer disruptions, an easier time at AE (fewer cases), and can be achieved without a full-fledged case.

RSN comment - while RSN can be quite lively if, say, Fox News is discussed - discussion of more serious sourcing issues - particularly if not in English - ends up as a discussion between the same INVOLVED editors with very little outside input. I will note I have also seen this on ARBPIA or say in this discussion on sourcing on an Indian language/script. Outside editors rarely get involved if it involves more than "knee jerk" response. The end result is that RSN, as it doesn't actually widen the discussion, ends with the same lack of consensus, between the same editors, on the article. At present - my feeling is that RSN isn't really functional for most non-English sources (as well as niche ares). WP:NOENG (preferring English sources, translations and quotations upon challenge for non-English sources) is policy. In practice my feeling is that it is not enforceable, and nor is the introduction of information failing WP:V - as long as it isn't clear black/white Holocaust denial - one can throw 50 pages of non-English citation at something (even when good English sources are available), even stonewall at providing quotations - and it would still be a non-actionable "content dispute". Icewhiz ( talk) 21:43, 19 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Piotrus

Since 1) I've been quoted by Icewhiz (through not notified, I refer specifically to this diff), and 2) this does concern one of my primary content areas, as I've created dozens articles on Polish-Jewish topics, such as Maria Roszak just few days ago and 3) this contains the most absurd request I've seen in my ~15 years here ("sourcing restriction for non-English sources for Jew-Polish relations."), I feel I should make a statement.

First. Regarding the 1RR restriction request, the "500/30 protection" (what is this, btw? I've never heard such term used on Wikipedia before... it is a form of semi-protection) and others (request to verify sources before reverting, etc.), as someone who has seen various edit conflicts in related topic areas in dozen+ years, including some that ended up at ArbCom, it is my view that there's no significant amount of vandalism, or long term edit warring, or any other malpractices that would raise to the level requiring any special treatment for this topic area or even for any particular articles (one can check history of major articles like Polish Jews or The Holocaust in Poland or such to see they are generally stable). While it would be nice to force editors to use higher quality sources, there's no reason to treat Polish-Jewish topic area any different from the rest of Wikipedia. While there are occasional disagreements, they are not raising above the usual noise level in this area.

Second, it would be absurd to ban or restrict non-English sources. AFAIK this hasn't been done for any topic area, and rightly so, as for each language there are plenty of reliable sources. To say that Foo-language sources (or anything that's not in English) cannot be used for XYZ-topic is a very serious accusation for any scholarship. While there are some particular cases we limit sources, they are very rare - I think there's a general consensus to be careful with Nazi-era sources, for example, but even then, there's no blanket rule saying that no Nazi-era sources are allowed (through perhaps there should be, I can similarly think of issues with ISIS sources, etc. - but those are extreme cases and we are hardly anywhere near this level of seriousness here). Over the years I've cautioned some people to be careful with Soviet-era sources for some topics, or modern Putin-era Russian historiography, and I concur there are some indications some (but certainly not all!) modern Polish historiography works exhibits a worrisome political agenda not unlike that found in Putin's Russia, and it is good for editors to realize this, but overall, WP:RS covers such situations pretty well, and if needed WP:RSN can be brought to bear on specific cases (ex. see this RSN discussion Icehwiz started, which IIRC led to the decision to stop using Paul (an English-language source, btw) as a source in this topic area. It's a proof that current tools and structures work, no special treatment is needed. To ban (and remove?) Polish and other non-English sources from Polish-Jewish topics would do immense damage to the project. Many articles in categories such as Category:Polish Righteous Among the Nations or Category:Jewish ghettos in Nazi-occupied Poland are based on Polish-language sources that simply do not exist in English. To ban sources ranging from Polish Biographical Dictionary to works by scholars from the Jewish Historical Institute or works published by many other Polish-Jewish organizations in Poland would be, IMHO, ridiculous. (As for 'remove low quality sources' plea, of course I support it - but to repeat myself, that's just like saying 'please enforce existing policies like RS'. Doh. Sure. Let's. We all agree. In all content areas. Nothing for ArbCom do look at here).

Nonetheless, the fact that such ridiculous request has been made bears considering in light that Icewhiz has often criticized Polish-language sources (ex. just yesterday here, or few months ago numerous times here - just search for NOENG; it's pretty much all Icewhiz criticizing NOENG/Polish sources; same here). While his criticism has not always been without merit (as sometimes he correctly identified low-quality sources), I don't see any relation between low quality sources he (or others, including myself) identify, and language. Sometimes we find and remove low quality Polish sources, sometimes they are English, occasionally they are in another language altogether. Language is not an issue. The fact that one can seriously make such request (April Fools has come and gone...) makes me wonder about their judgement, since to effectively try to argue that all non-English sources should be treated as if they were Nazi-German era works (i.e. automatically disqualified on the subject matter of Jewish history/culture/etc.) is not a sign of a sound editorial judgement.

Bottom line, if an editor feels that he has lost too many arguments, he should not turn to WP:FORUMSHOPPING. And trying to do so here may result in rather heavy WP:BOOMERANG. Because while there is nothing particularly wrong with Polish-Jewish topics on English Wikipedia (they are reasonably stable and neutral), there is some evidence that some editors are developing WP:BATTLEGROUND-like mentality, evidenced for example by spurious AE and even ArbCom-level requests (see my related wiki-essay). And that may be something that ArbCom may want to investigate, because a number of meritless requests at AE/ArbCom boards is an indicator of a potential problem (one that could warrant for example a ban from submitting spurious requests of such kind in the future). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Ealdgyth

Sourcing is bad on all sides in this area... these are just a few small examples I've run across ... I'm sure if I dug deeply, I'd be able to find plenty of others. Note that I've very carefully not pointed out who did these various problems - because that just feeds the battleground mentality.

It's not just the troubling/sloppy sourcing that's occurring (and these are likely the tip of the iceberg), it's the constant battleground mentality that affects most editors in this area. One person adds something that's sloppily sourced, the other side reverts and screams bloody murder on the talk page, but then that second side adds something else that's also sloppily sourced and then the first side starts screaming bloody murder. And everything is accompanied by endless reverts ... there is not any way for third party editors who aren't invested in the conflict to actually contribute for any length of time because it's just so dreadfully draining. 1RR doesn't seem to help, because there are multiple editors on each "side" so ... the reverts just roll in and people who aren't on a side just give up and walk away - I've done it often enough.

I don't know if there are any answers. On days when I'm terribly discouraged, I think banning everyone on both sides might help but...I'm afraid that won't solve the problems, which unfortunately are tied to academic and political debates that have become so contentious that they are spilling over into wikipedia.

Pinging SlimVirgin ( talk · contribs) and K.e.coffman ( talk · contribs), both of whom I've obliquely mentioned here. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Nihil novi

The initiator of the present discussion writes that non- Polonophones may have difficulty verifying sources that are not in English. For this reason, where the original Polish texts have been provided, e.g. in the references, I have often translated them into English. I have also suggested that the original Polish texts routinely be so provided, and that I will be happy to render them into English. I stand by my suggestion and offer. Thank you. Nihil novi ( talk) 20:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Kurtis

@ Piotrus: 500/30 (also known as extended-confirmed protection, or 30/500) is a special type of semi-protection that restricts accounts with less than 500 edits or have been registered for less than 30 days from editing certain pages. That is to say, an account that was registered 10 years ago but has only made 404 edits would be unable to edit a page under 500/30 protection, as would an account that has made thousands upon thousands of edits within 24 days of signing up. Both conditions must be met for an account to be granted extended-confirmed status, permitting them to edit a 500/30 protected article. Kurtis (talk) 21:39, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by François Robere

If the committee accepts this proposal now, it won't be a moment too soon. Throughout the discussions in this topic area we've seen (in no particular order) book summaries, liturgical press, Geocities-SPS, press releases, Ph.D students on popular websites, censorship based on supposed Communist background, independent authors, potentially antisemitic and pseudonymic authors, and more (other examples here: [81] [82]). Piotrus is right in asserting that current policy was enough to resolve all of these problems, but WP:RS alone wasn't enough: we had RfCs on writers you never heard of, and days-long discussions on sources with less than 5 citations globally (which were introduced to the discussion as "notable", "important", or even "preeminent" historians). In several cases editors introduced what would later be deemed a non-RS to dozens of articles at the same time; in another, a plagiarizing source was removed 8.5 years after it was discovered. Piotrus is wrong, however, in suggesting this is "forum shopping" trying to rehash past disagreements - those we mostly managed, with much time and angst; rather, this is an attempt to prevent future ones by raising the bar on sourcing, so that we're left with actual content disputes rather than biography hunts and repeated translation requests.

Nihil novi has indeed made an effort translating and making sources accessible. This removed some of the language barriers, but did not solve several other problems: out of context quoting (where you'd need the whole page rather than 2-3 sentences); low-quality sources; inaccessible materials (low circulation, out of print etc. - often the result of low quality); and editors refusing to supply quotations or exact citations of their materials - all problems that would be resolved by this proposal.

Which leads me to a fact central to all of this: WWII is a major area of scholarship, and virtually all reputable sources end up being published in English. Sources that don't are either undiscovered or disreputable; if they're undiscovered (old and forgotten, or new and yet to be translated), then it's not our job to introduce them into the mainstream (in some cases it could even constitute WP:OR); and if they're disreputable, then we shouldn't use them anyway. And so our choice here is essentially between stability and novelty: do we use the freshest materials, even those that are yet to be translated; or the stablest materials - those that have garnered the broadest attention and acceptance? In topic areas that are this prone to edit warring and disagreement, I'd argue for the stablest.

And one final note on admins: Among the host of... ineffective admins, Ealdgyth has been the only one willing to take this topic seriously and try to make sense of who's who and what's what; the only one to actually go through the sources and try to mediate compromise - or just enforce the rules - instead of waiting for things to repeatedly explode at ANI/AE. Otherwise the boards have been nearly useless, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. [83] [84] Whatever other decision you reach, you should pass this stern message to admins: an effective admin is one who gets involved and dives deep into the disagreements, not one who sits on the sidelines and only occasionally and selectively applies policy. An effective admin is not a policy-application machine, but a person who reasons with depth [85] and is willing to make sure things get done. If you're willing to invest yourself in being an effective admin, then by all means do so - you have the backing of the community. But if you don't, then stay away. François Robere ( talk) 16:30, 18 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by Tatzref

This request is, in my view, misplaced. There is no valid justification for restricting discussion on historical subjects only to English-language academic sources or imposing a requirement of consensus with regard to non-English, specifically Polish language sources. This would simply erase or block important research by Polish historians that is not available in English or is not mentioned in English texts. A typical case in point is the following. Icewhiz erased the following text in its entirety from the article on History of the Jews in Poland ( /info/en/?search=History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland), and replaced it with their own:

12:23, 12 March 2019‎ Icewhiz talk contribs‎ 219,143 bytes +1,651‎ →‎Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property: Remove content as it failed verification vs. the cited sources, misused a primary source, and was contradicted by available English RSes. Replace with content cited to academic English-language sources available online.)

A restitution law "On Abandoned Real Estates" of May 6, 1945 allowed property owners who had been dispossessed, or their relatives and heirs, whether residing in Poland or outside the country, to reclaim privately owned property under a simplified inheritance procedure. The law remained in effect until the end of 1948. An expedited court process, entailing minimal costs, was put in place to handle claims. Applications had to be examined within 21 days, and many claims were processed the day they were filed. Poles often served as witnesses to corroborate claims of Jewish neighbors and acquaintances. Jewish law firms and agencies outside Poland specialized in submitting applications on behalf of non-residents. Many properties were also transferred and sold by Jewish owners outside this process. [1] The American Jewish Year Book reported, at the time, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.” [2] Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed, for example, more than 520 properties were reclaimed in two county towns of Lublin province alone (281 applications in Zamość, and 240 in Włodawa - some applications involved multiple properties). [3]

All of this information is based on reliable sources produced by reputable, professional Polish historians (Alina Skibinska, Lukasz Krzyzanowski, Krzysztof Urbanski, Adam Kopciowski). Moreover, the information about postwar property restoration is based on primary research into hundreds of Polish court records for each town that is mentioned. Alina Skibinska states, in relation to Szczebrzeszyn, that at least one third of the 210 private properties belonging to Jews before the war were returned to their owners or their heirs by 1950, and that almost all of these properties were very quickly sold to Poles (Klucze o kasa, p. 562). She goes on to assess the workings of the local municipal court: the vast majority of claims were favorably dealt with; the pace at which this was done was very speedy, as many of the claims were allowed the day they were received or very soon after; the judges very often overlooked deficiencies in the applications (Klucze i kasa, p. 568-569).

The text that Icewhiz substituted uses publications of poor quality with no sources cited for the relevant claims (Laurence Weinbaum, The Plunder of Jewish Property during the Holocaust), publications that do not look into actual court records and outcomes of property claims (Michael Meng, Shattered Spaces), or publications that refer to selected court records but do not undertake a systematic investigation of the records of any one town (Cichopek-Gajraj, Beyond Violence), and then make sweeping generalizations that the in-depth investigations of court records do not support. Moreover, the research into Polish court records fully accords with the monitoring that Jewish organizations were conducting at the time. The American Jewish Year Book, a highly reliable source authored by academics, reported in 1947-1948, that “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.” The postwar decrees in question were introduced for the benefit of the Jews, with a much simplified and cheaper process than the regular court inheritance procedures, which one could always resort to. Icewhiz simply wiped all this out as allegedly “failed verification vs. the cited sources, misused a primary source” because it doesn’t accord with what he thinks the historical record should be. This smacks of censorship and is a disastrous forecast for the state of such articles. Tatzref ( talk) 22:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC) Further clarifications. Tatzref ( talk) 12:40, 19 April 2019 (UTC) Tatzref ( talk) 12:45, 19 April 2019 (UTC) reply

  1. ^ Jan Grabowski and Dariusz Libionka, eds. Klucze i kasa: O mieniu żydowskim w Polsce pod okupacją niemiecką i we wczesnych latach powojennych 1939–1950 (Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą 2014), 522–523, 529, 568–569, 575–607. Also Krzysztof Urbański. Kieleccy Żydzi (Kraków: Pracownia Konserwacji Zabytków w Kielcach and Małopolska Oficyna Wydawnicza, n.d. [1993]), 180–190; Marta Pawlina-Meducka, ed. Z kroniki utraconego sąsiedztwa: Kielce, wrzesień 2000/From the Chronicle of the Lost Neighborhood: Kielce, September 2000 (Kielce: Kieleckie Towarzystwo Naukowe, 2001), 202.
  2. ^ American Jewish Year Book, 5708 (1947–1948), vol. 49 (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1947), 390.
  3. ^ Adam Kopciowski. Zagłada Żydów w Zamościu (Lublin: Wydawnictwo Uniwersytetu Marii Curie-Skłodowskiej, 2005), 203; Adam Kopciowski, "Anti-Jewish Incidents in the Lublin Region in the Early Years after World War II," ≈Holocaust: Studies and Materials vol. 1 (2008), 188.

Statement by Zero0000

I believe that all editors who use sources which a typical English-speaking editor will have great difficulty verifying should be willing to provide quotations and/or translations. Not just foreign language sources, but rare sources too. But that's a project-wide fundamental issue which shouldn't be addressed on a per-area basis.

Concerning the specific requests:

  • Items 1 and 2: no problem
  • Items 3.1: X inserts text+source, Y deletes it, Z reverts Y. Is Z now personally responsible for text+source? Surely it depends on other details, such as whether Y gave a good reason for the deletion. Also, this would encourage bulk deletions, since nobody could revert them without checking every single source they include.
  • Items 3.2–3.4: The committee should consider the editing record of the filer in the Jewish-Polish domain and compare it to the likely effect on article neutrality if extra restrictions are placed on Polish sources which don't apply to English sources.

Zero talk 01:14, 21 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other editors}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).


Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • On the face of it, this seems more like a case request than something for ARCA. If it's too complex for AE, we would need the extended framework of a case to examine the totality of the evidence. I would likely vote to accept this as a case request, but I decline to consider extending 500/30 to an entire topic area in the absence of a case. ~ Rob13 Talk 06:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC) reply
    • I will echo Joe that I would not consider any broad restriction on non-English sources. That is firmly a content question. If the community wishes to impose such a restriction at WP:AN or WP:RSN in this topic area, they can do so. I do see some potential for a case request based on the allegations here, but such a case request would need to focus on the behavioral problems here: intentionally introducing foreign language sources which do not support the text, POV pushing, etc. by either any established editor or new/IP editors as a group. That's something that would be ripe for arbitration. ~ Rob13 Talk 16:25, 19 April 2019 (UTC) reply
  • I'm absolutely against placing restrictions on sourcing. That's well into content territory, out of both ArbCom and AE's remit. The other sanctions are possible, but I agree with Rob: we would need a full case to examine this issue properly. –  Joe ( talk) 09:59, 18 April 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Absolutely agree with the above. (Well, with one small point - I don't think rejecting all foreign-language sources in a topic area would fly as a community restriction either.) To the extent that this is a POV-pushing or source misrepresentation problem, those are behavior issues that can go through normal dispute resolution channels, and if those are exhausted then it'd be time for a case request. I don't see anything workable in the ARCA format, though - this would need an evidence-gathering process. Opabinia regalis ( talk) 09:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed with my colleagues that we would hear this matter as a fresh case request; I would be unsurprised to find this topic needs a "sequel case".
    The record of inconclusive enforcement requests throws up a couple of issues. First, administrators should probably stop saying that a remedy is too confusing to be enforced. At AE, if you wish to not enforce a remedy or assess a request, best is that you just keep quiet. Speaking up in this way has a chilling effect. Second, I think these 1-Revert Restrictions (1RRs) are doing more harm than good. The received wisdom goes that limiting the quantity of reverts compels a disputant to "choose wisely". Yet 1RR simply encourages the spreading out of reverts over time. The received wisdom also goes that limiting the frequency of reverts stabilises the article for our readers. However, protection may do well enough.
    I am less concerned by the submissions that non-EC users are a destabilising force. The evidence supplied just seems to show a bunch of anonymous users adding content that gets reverted in short order. AGK  ■ 20:36, 26 April 2019 (UTC) reply
    • information Note: Absent objection, it would seem we have provided all the guidance that we can. I move to close this request. AGK  ■ 10:12, 28 April 2019 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification request: Eastern Europe (January 2021)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by EvergreenFir at 20:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Eastern Europe arbitration case ( t) ( ev /  t) ( w /  t) ( pd /  t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by EvergreenFir

Does the scope of the discretionary sanctions promulgated by this amendment or original case include Turkey? I ask because I recently have noticed an increase in complaints around nationalist editing for and against Turkey, as well as disruptive editing around Turkey and Armenia. Examples include:

Eastern_Europe#Southeast_Europe says the part of Turkey is in Eastern Europe, but only a small portion. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Further clarification: If Turkey is included, then would Uyghurs be included as well? This is another area full of disruption. The article describes the Uyghurs as a "Turkic ethnic group". EvergreenFir (talk) 20:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Thank you all for the clarification! EvergreenFir (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by MJL

The sanctions of Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 were put in place, per the 2013 Clarification request, to deal with cases of ethnic conflicts similarly related to the one of Armenia/Azerbaijan. This would likely include the conflict between Armenia and Turkey, but I can't imagine it would be so permissive to include just Turkey (and certainly not the Uyghurs). – MJL  ‐Talk‐ ☖ 00:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by Ymblanter (Eastern Europe)

I am sure the EE discretionary sanctions do not include Turkey-Armenia relations. They are rooted in WP:EEML, and Turkey has never been an issue there. On the other hand, recently the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh intensified in real life, because Azerbaijan took an offensive against this Armenia-held area with the support of Turkey, and was able to regain control over a considerable part of it (with Armenians being evacuated). This caused escalation of Armenian-Azerbaijani clashes all over the internet, including Wikipedia. The reason that Turkey-Armenia issues escalated are in this conflict, and it would be reasonable to add them to the Armenia-Azerbaijan discretionary sanctions. Furthermore, if we are talking about Turkey-Syria issues, these are neither Eastern Europe nor Armenia-Azerbaijan. They are currently covered by general sanctions, and I believe upgrading them to DS could be a good idea but it would require a full case and can not be done as clarification.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 10:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Uyghurs live in China, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan, I do not see them being relevant for the EE DS however broadly we interpret them.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 10:47, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Eastern Europe: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Eastern Europe: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I don't believe the Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions have ever included Turkey. However, note that there is a separate DS authorization for Armenia and Azerbaijan. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 20:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with NYB and think that if we're going to expand a DS to include Turkey, A&A2 would be a better candidate. If folks think its warranted, I would also be a fan of just passing a separate Turkey DS by motion, but I'd like feedback to know the extent of the problem so we have a good idea what the scope should be. I find including Uyghurs under either to be...a stretch. Sure there are a few Uyghurs in Turkey, but it is mostly a China issue. The "related ethnic conflict" wording of A&A2 is broad, but I think not broad enough to include Uyghurs. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 21:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • A&A2 did include Turkey for some editors, however I feel loathed to just stick in DS for the area, without giving it a review - A&A2 was in 2008 and hasn't been modified since 2013 - alternatively a fresh case might be an option. I agree with the above arbs that Eastern Europe would not be the best case to link to. WormTT( talk) 10:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply
    Guerillero shudder, do we want to open that box? Pandora seems to be holding it. WormTT( talk) 16:33, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Agreed, Turkey is not included in the Eastern Europe case. I would really like to leave it at that... but it's hard to see how "related ethnic conflicts, broadly interpreted" won't ensnare a fair amount of Turkey. Still, the 2013 A&A amendment did not add "Turkey, broadly interpreted", much less "Turkic peoples, broadly interpreted". -- BDD ( talk) 20:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Agree that EE does not include Turkey. If there are problems that need review and which are outside the A&A scope, it would probably need a full case. Regards So Why 07:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I think WTT's statement reflect my thinking well on this matter. Best, Barkeep49 ( talk) 16:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Pile-on agree that Turkey is not covered by EE sanctions, but I do want to elaborate on my reasoning. The previous disputes in the EE topic area are generally to do with various ethnic/national disputes to do with the European parts of the ex-Soviet Union (including the Baltics), Poland, and the Balkans. This is, broadly speaking, to where the most ethnic/nationalistic advocacy is related to. Disputes to do with Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria are not as prominent but I doubt they're unheard of. Balkan disputes are most often to do with topics to do with ex-Yugoslavia. Turkey doesn't fit into any of these categories. Maxim(talk) 20:44, 10 January 2021 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Amendment request: Nicoljaus, indef topic ban (September 2021)

Original discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Nicoljaus at 10:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Case or decision affected
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive281#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Nicoljaus
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive281#Result of the appeal by Nicoljaus


List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Information about amendment request
  • Lift or mitigate a topic-ban


Statement by Nicoljaus

In February 2021 I received an indefinite topic ban. My attempt to appeal it ended in failure. Newslinger dismissed my appeal by repeating the unfounded "hounding" charge. The topic ban is formulated in such a way that it covers all areas in which I have ever worked in English Wikipedia [87] and where my contribution can be useful. I ask you to reconsider the appeal and either remove TB or soften it. For example, I can edit and write articles without participating in discussions, with the additional limit of 1RR (which I already have). Well, or let's restrict TB to some really highly controversial topics (most of my edits do not apply to such topics).-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 10:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply

  • @ Ymblanter: Although this really has nothing to do with this appeal, everyone who is not involved should know that the administrator on Russian Wikipedia, who brought me to an indef-block, was as recently as two weeks ago indeffed for the persistent harassment of another person, the administrator and a member of the Russian Arbitration Committee. There is something very serious, and now Trust&Safety is dealing with it [88]. As for my block evasion, I acted on the basis of WP:5P5, but ArbCom acted on solid legal grounds and I respect its decision. So I cleared my watchlist and won't even react to outright vandalism.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 11:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • but also because what isn't unconterversial when it comes to the WP:BALKANS -- Well, let's eliminate them! No edits in articles related to the Balkans, great. What about other articles from "Eastern Europe, broadly construed"? I am looking at my Top edited pages [89]. Medieval Russian history? WWII military operations? I have not had any problems with most of the articles I have worked on, until I met with Ethno-national socks, like those of of Umertan, Crovata and others. Okay, I will not edit articles that have anything to do with Ukraine either, so as not to disturb these Ethno-national socks.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 20:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • It's rather sad to see, El_C, that you are again imposing a distorted perception of my words on everyone, trying to make me look bad, instead of considering the issue of reasonably limiting the topic-ban. I'm talking about specific Umertan dolls [90], there is no "sarcasm" and "passive aggression".-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 03:23, 12 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • @ Thryduulf: especially if it impacts an area where they are doing good work -- I do not want to seem immodest )) but perhaps you will take a look at these articles I created and say if it was "good work"? [91] (Note: the article 15th–16th century Moscow–Constantinople schism was a joint work with Veverve). And beside that, I have made extensive additions to the articles from this list [92]; they all belong to Eastern Europe, one way or another. If you completely remove the articles related to the Balkans (2 out of 20) and Ukraine (3 out of 20), 15 articles will remain. For example, my work in these articles ( 1, 2, 3, 4) seems to me quite good, and there were no any conflicts at all.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 09:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • @ Thryduulf: I beg your pardon, I misunderstood. Of course, I did not agree with such a wide topic-ban and wrote about this in my appeal: guys, seriously, what are the problems if I write articles like Dmitry Krasny, Battle of Belyov, Izyum-Barvenkovo Offensive, Alexander Bubnov, 15th–16th century Moscow–Constantinople schism (except for my poor English, of course)? There this issue was not considered in any way. I hoped that this issue would finally be considered by the ArbCom, as it is recommended here: "submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA")". I took a break, because somewhere I saw that it was possible to dispute the decision no earlier than six months later (but perhaps I got something wrong here). Anyway, thanks for your clarifications, they helped me.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 12:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Well, since El_C has forgotten, I will write briefly how it was. In 2019 in the article Rusyns I met user Miki Filigranski, who began to push fringe or outdated theories about White Croats. In fact, my interest in the Balkans is rather limited - only as a part of the general medieval history (the origin of the Slavs, the Iron Age, etc.) - but I was aware of the current state of research on this matter. This user’s favorite expression in controversy with someone was “blatant lie”, in addition to pushing fringe theories, cherry picking and so on. He did this for years and did not receive any topic-ban until he was indeffed as a sockpuppet of the user Crovata (I did not participate in this in any way). When MF received a short-term block, Mikola22 came to the discussion about the White Croats to support his POV (first under IP, then he registered). It was almost impossible to convince him, and when I reverted his new, non-consensual edits, I got some blocks. Eventually Mikola22 got an indefinite topic ban from WP:ARBEE [93] (I had nothing to do with it either, we haven't crossed paths for over a year).
Much more later, in February 2021, there was a massive campaign against Navalny [94], as a result of which Amnesty even temporarily deprived him of his "prisoner of conscience" status (they soon admitted their mistake and apologized [95]). Precisely at this time, the user Mhorg began to violate WP:BIO - he use unreliable sources (blog posts), directly distort what was written in sources (for example, the "citizens of Georgia" whom Navalny proposed to deport as a measure of non-military pressure on the government of Georgia, Mhorg turned into "ethnic Georgians"), and defiantly ignored WP:BALASP. Such things in articles about a living person is pretty bad, so when I saw this, I tried to do something with this. This campaign was also attended by user PaleSimon, who received an indefinite block a month later (on another topic, I have nothing to do with this, but it's a pity that completely similar behavior in the topic about Navalny did not receive due attention). I cannot say that my actions in this conflict were perfect, but my intentions were honest. There were no "wikihounding" on my part and no one bothered to prove that this "wikihounding", as of "an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress to the other editor" really took place. And it insults me that the indefinite topic ban was introduced immediately after Mhorg accused me of editing articles "just to annoy him". But these are all past cases, I understand that it is useless to look for some kind of justice here. What I don’t understand: why these episodes lead to a conclusion about my fundamental inability to work specifically on the topic of all "Eastern Europe, broadly construed". And this is the issue that I am asking the arbitration committee to consider. As I see in WP:ARBGUIDE: "Arbitrators focus on the risk and benefits for the future, not on past issues".-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 13:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by El_C

Last I heard from the appellant was about 30 days ago, on Aug 9 —see latest thread on their talk page ( perm link)— where they pinged me in their response to a bot (!). A weird experience. But besides that exchange, they have a total of like 5 contribs post-Feb. So, in so far as demonstrating that they're able to edit okay'ish outside the ban, it just isn't really a thing that they did. El_C 13:45, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply

WTT, I don't see any sense in adjusting the ban at this time, partly per Primefac, but also because what isn't unconterversial when it comes to the WP:BALKANS? I don't mean that rhetorically, I really can't tell. It's possible that pretty much any BALKANS-covered subject carries within it the antecedents of requiring AE support.
As an example, check out my latest protection of Medieval Monuments in Kosovo ( AEL diff). I'll quote myself, as I am fond of doing: Ethno-national sock returns to this rather obscure page. Okay ( RfPP diff). Damn, Cyberbot I is getting plumped on treats! El_C 14:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
Quoting Nicoljaus above ( 16:55, 10 Sept): Okay, I will not edit articles that have anything to do with Ukraine either, so as not to disturb these Ethno-national socks. What can I say about that passive-aggressive sarcasm (in their own appeal!) except: more of the same. El_C 18:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC) reply
Nicoljaus, I'd have thought you'd at least be at your best behaviour when before the arbitrators (and for a while, it looked like you were). Either way, I'm happy to leave you to your own devices so as not to disturb whatever it is that you're doing at this point. But if you quote me, don't be shocked when I do the same in response. El_C 04:05, 12 September 2021 (UTC) reply
@ Newyorkbrad, L235, and Worm That Turned: while the first sanctions (Feb 2020) concerned medieval BALKANS material, the dispute that brought the final sanction (Feb 2021 blanket EE TBAN) involved a conflict over Russian/Ukrainian stuff as I recall. So, as to the impression (on my part, too, initially) that this sanction is BALKANS with EE adjacent, well, that is apparently not so. I know, who can follow any of this or, for my part, even remember. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ El_C 08:22, 16 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by Newslinger

Statement by Ymblanter

Whereas it has no direct bearing on the appeal, it is useful for all involved to know that Nicoljaus is blocked indef in the Russian Wikipedia, and the ArbCom rejected their appeal as recently as two weeks ago due to ongoing block evasion [96].-- Ymblanter ( talk) 11:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by Thryduulf

Speaking in general terms (I have no opinion about this specific appeal) I think that topic bans should be narrowed only in two circumstances:

  1. Immediately or very shortly after it was imposed iff there is consensus that the topic ban was far too broad for the disruption caused, especially if it impacts an area where they are doing good work (e.g. a topic ban from "Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted" would not be appropriate if the disruption was solely related to say Poland-Russia relations but they do good work on articles about European rivers)
  2. When the editor has demonstrated good work in topic areas not covered but it is unclear whether they should be permitted back into the area of disruption. In such cases allowing the editor to contribute to the fringe of the area can be a good way to demonstrate reform or otherwise.

Outside of those two situations though, topic bans should be either retained as enacted or removed completely. Thryduulf ( talk) 11:12, 14 September 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Nicoljaus: you appear to have overlooked the "Immediately or very shortly after it was imposed" part of my comment. If you don't appeal the scope within that timescale it is reasonable to assume you accept it as valid and appropriate, and so to get it narrowed later you need to demonstrate good work in topic areas not covered by the topic ban as imposed. Thryduulf ( talk) 11:36, 16 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by Mhorg

I intervene here as the user Nicoljaus talked about me and pinged me. Nicoljaus is bringing things into the speech that have nothing to do with his ban:

1. He was not banned for intervening on Navalny's article, but because, following "clashes" on the dissident's discussions page, the user began to target to my old contributions from almost a year before, and did not do it alone, [97] in fact in this AE Request [98], which I opened against User:My very best wishes, I listed what in my opinion were 6 cases of wikihounding against me (the user even began to interfere in discussions on my talk page with other users, and for this he was warned by an administrator [99]), in some of whom Nicoljaus was also involved. Note that I had not opened the AE Request against Nicoljaus (despite an admin had warned him not to cast aspersions against me [100]), but I was only asking him to stop following me along with "My very best wishes".
2. Nicoljaus then, aggressively, even comes to ask me to open an AE Request against him (which I have not done anyway), acting in defense of "My very best wishes". [101]
3. Just to point out that the user has a battleground mentality, he even intervened in a (crazy) SPI against me, [102] opened by "My very best wishes", after 3 months of inactivity [103] only for what seems like a revenge.

Instead, analyzing the way in which he reported the story of the heated debates on Navalny:

1. Precisely at this time, the user Mhorg began to violate WP: BIO - he use unreliable sources (blog posts) For real? The post came from Navalny's official blog, and served to explain precisely what he had stated. Also, Nicoljaus had no problem expanding that part which contradicted what the secondary sources reported (incorrectly), using Navalny's own blog as a source. [104] Inconsistency.
2. directly distort what was written in sources (for example, the" citizens of Georgia "whom Navalny proposed to deport as a measure of non-military pressure on the government of Georgia, Mhorg turned into "ethnic Georgians" It was my translation error, when Nicoljaus pointed it out to me I promptly corrected the part. [105] Nicoljaus is talking about it as if mine was a bad faith act.
3. This campaign was also attended by user PaleSimon, who received an indefinite block a month later I didn't understand why the user wants to associate me with this user PaleSimon (who only released 5 short comments on that discussion page), perhaps Nicoljaus should be reminded that in the same discussion, he was backing User:LauraWilliamson [106], a Gordimalo sockpuppet (and Gordimalo continued the fight in the discussion with an another sockpuppet, Beanom [107]).

I hope not to be forced to intervene again on this topic, despite the desire to tone down, I have already wasted a lot of time in not very constructive discussions with this user.-- Mhorg ( talk) 18:33, 19 September 2021 (UTC) reply

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Nicoljaus, indef topic ban: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Nicoljaus, indef topic ban: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I would like to hear from others (especially User:El C) regarding the possibility of a "softened" topic ban, but I don't see any reason to overturn the action outright. I also don't particularly see that softening is the right option, but am willing to listen to further opinions. WormTT( talk) 14:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
    Thank you El C, I appreciate the thoughts, which tally with my own. I'm also a "no" on this request. WormTT( talk) 15:43, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • This is pretty darn similar to the other open request - a topic ban six months ago with only a half-dozen article/talk edits since then; no indication that the user can be productive outside these areas, which is the whole point of a topic ban. Primefac ( talk) 14:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • DS does not work if the Arbs substitute their judgement for that of the levying admin. So I hesitate to overturn a sanction except if there has been a substantive error in DS policy or it is a WP:ROPE kind of appeal. My analysis of the diffs suggests that there was disruptive behavior aimed at another editor (Mhorg) and that this behavior continued after a clearly worded warning. Nicoljaus does not seem understand why multiple people have reached a similar conclusion which means a sanction remains necessary. So I will not be supporting this appeal. What's not clear to me is if a 1-way interaction ban would have the same effect or if there has been disruptive behavior aimed at other editors that necessitates a topic ban. I throw that question out there for El C to consider but on the whole find the sanctions levied to be not only with-in policy, as a topic ban is an appropriate next step for someone already under a 1RR restriction who causes further issues in an area, but that some sanction was clearly necessary given the evidence. So I am a no on procedure (not sufficient evidence to overturn a DS sanction) and a no on merits (the sanction is a good use of DS given the evidence). Barkeep49 ( talk) 15:02, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I fully agree with what Barkeep49 said. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Agree with Barkeep. -- BDD ( talk) 15:01, 13 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Although it is obviously a minority opinion here (as on the other pending appeal), I'd be willing to narrow the scope of the topic-ban to cover editing on disputes or controversies involving Eastern Europe, rather than any and every article about an entire subcontinent. (After all, we don't typically ban American editors who misbehave while editing about American topics from "all editing about the United States, broadly construed.") Newyorkbrad ( talk) 04:46, 14 September 2021 (UTC) reply
    NYB, we give our uninvolved admins the leeway to make the decision they feel is right on DS. I would need a VERY good reason to modify one. Overturning I can understand, if some requirement was met, but modification just implies that "I wouldn't have done it that way", well - that's the discretion part of DS. Modifying would, in my opinion, do far more damage to confidence in the system than it would benefit anyone. WormTT( talk) 08:08, 14 September 2021 (UTC) reply
    I 100% agree with Worm. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I think Barkeep49 and WTT are spot on in their assessments. Modifying sanctions by ArbCom should be limited to cases where the sanction is objectively indefensible in order to for the "D" in "DS" to work. Regards So Why 19:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I can think of only two reasons to modify a topic ban: either it was wrong on it's face when enacted, or the user has successfully demonstrated they can contribute positively by editing in areas outside the bounds of the ban. Neither seem to apply here. It is an unfortunate risk of such sanctions that they do sometimes drive an editor completely off of the project, but we have to consider the community as a whole as well. I would encourage Nicoljaus to find some other area that interests them, something less fraught and emotional, there must be something, and to just ignore this topic area entirely for a while. You may find that editing in a topic area you don't have stong opinions about it a good deal more enjoyable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beeblebrox ( talk • contribs) 21:04, 19 September 2021 (UTC) reply
  • I agree with WTT, Primefac, and Barkeep49. Maxim(talk) 14:45, 21 September 2021 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe&oldid=1142513864"

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