This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 70 | ← | Archive 72 | Archive 73 | Archive 74 | Archive 75 | Archive 76 | → | Archive 80 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Darkness Shines ( talk) at 20:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Sandstein has banned me from reverting on any article relating to climate change. Even if the edit is an obvious violation of BLP. His rationale for this sanction was to prevent further disruption, however as there was no further disruption from me then this sanction is not preventative. BLP policy is that "Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion" This sanction is a violation of our policy on BLP. Yes I edit warred, yes I was wrong, but banning an editor from removing blatant violations of BLP is ridiculous. A 1RR restriction would make more sense, if I were reverted by an editor then I would go to the article talk page to make a case.
I suppose I have to point out that Kaj Taj Mahal is a SPA whose sole purpose on Wikipedia is to denigrate the BLP James Delingpole. Edits such as writing having no scientific or intellectual qualifications himself to make this accusation. Or calling him a mental-midget. Or violating NPOV and LABEL by adding a section title Anthropogenic climate change denial The sanction imposed on myself means the first diff I presented here could not be removed by me, which is a ridiculous state of affairs. Darkness Shines ( talk) 01:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: The article protection was removed before I was sanctioned, and there were no reverts by myself on it. Please explain where this "continuing disruption" was? Darkness Shines ( talk) 10:06, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Sandstein: Sandstein, please read what I have written. I said that if I am reverted then off to the talk page I go, how exactly could I do 1RR a day under that restriction? Darkness Shines ( talk) 10:12, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies:, @ Sandstein:, @ Salvio giuliano:. At 13:28, 15 January 2014 editor IHaveAMastersDegree, added this to a BLP "Delingpole's conjecture became the basis for one of the most well-known global warming conspiracy thoeries and has been cited as an example of conspiracy theories in science that "target specific research can have serious consequences for public health and environmental policies"" [3], the source does not mention Delingpole, I rasied this at 13:41, 15 January 2014 It was finally removed at 16:56, 15 January 2014, so that BLP violation sat in the article for an hour and a half, because had I removed that content it would be deemed a revert and I would be blocked. And if the next time the BLP vio is worse? Does it sit in an article for hours in the hope someone will come along to remove it? Darkness Shines ( talk) 17:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
For three days this BLP violation has sat in an article. I am unable to remove it and am hoping someone will see my post on the talk page, thing is, Delingpole did not write the blog post the authors of that paper are referring to, it was a guest post. Darkness Shines ( talk) 22:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
@
Nomoskedasticity: Say what? Every BLP violation I have pointed out has been agreed with by other editors that they were BLP violations. The diffs I presented prove the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Darkness Shines (
talk) 13:39, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Nomoskedasticity, where have I said those violations were "outrageous name-calling and vandalism" I am pointing out obvious BLP violations, which I cannot rectify because of this sanction, are you really OK with BLP vios sitting in articles for days at a time? Darkness Shines ( talk) 16:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Please note that DarknessShines appealed his restriction to WP:AE this past week, where his appeal was reviewed and declined unanimously by 5 admins. Here's a link to the appeal, as I don't see one provided above. MastCell Talk 22:13, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
While admins are allowed to extend editing restrictions to include a ban on removing BLP violations and vandalism, it is excessive for Sandstein to have both removed the exemption and subjected DS to a 0RR. A block for edit-warring given the contentious nature of the BLP claim, simply removing the exemption, or even a 1RR with no exemption for removing BLP violations and vandalism would have all been better geared towards addressing the cause of the problem without needlessly barring constructive editing in the topic area. Going straight to a 0RR with no exemptions is unduly severe.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
His behaviour at Talk:James Delingpole was rather disheartening, and precludes me from supporting any relaxation of sanctions. -- Kaj Taj Mahal ( talk) 00:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Please note the talk page discussions on "section titles" at that page [4] and at the corresponding BLP/N discussion [5] wherein I fear that some of the disputants complaining most loudly about DS seem to evince essentially the same behaviour as they dislike in him. I suggest that the equivalent sanction actually be extended to each of those editors de novo by motion as a result in order to calm down what appears to be a relatively toxic atmosphere in that corner of the Wiki-world. My sole connection here is suggesting a neutral and clear section title, by the way. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 00:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I recommend that this appeal is declined, for the reasons it was declined at WP:AE. I refer to my comments there. This additional appeal is forum shopping.
I did not impose a one-revert restriction, as now suggested by the appellant, because such a restriction would be insufficiently preventative. Even at the rate of one revert per day, edit wars can still be carried out. Especially in the case of particularly argumentative and wiki-litigious editors, I prefer imposing sanctions that are as simple as possible and contain as few loopholes, exceptions and caveats as possible.
The conduct of Kaj Taj Mahal has been the subject of a separate, now-closed AE request, and does not concern this appeal. Sandstein 09:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: Darkness Shines has already shown that he can't exercise the sort of judgment your proposal would require (which is why the sanction Sandstein imposed didn't give him room for it). Moreover it's not necessary: if Mr Shines perceives an egregious BLP violation, he can bring it to the attention of other editors and it will be dealt with in short order. This has already worked: [6], followed by [7]. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 08:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by MarshalN20 | Talk at 02:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Original Request (too long!)
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This request for the Argentine History case is primarily a clarification petition, but may end up with additional amendments to the case depending on how the solution to the problem can be achieved optimally (I will provide an amendment suggestion).
Thanks in advance for the help. Please take my proposals for solution as recommendations (not demands). Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 02:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
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Response to Roger
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---Response to Roger--- Thanks Roger. Yes, here are the direct quotes...
Notes:
Neotarf and others get away with this kind of mudslinging by claiming that their "general idea of the topic" is correct based on the Arbitration Committee's decision. A clarification on the ruling, perhaps directly addressing this "Black Legend", would be helpful (so that any further aspersion casting can be dealt with at AN/I). Alternatively, a remedy for "casting aspersions" could be amended into the case in order for any further aspersion casting can be reviewed at the Arbitration Enforcement page (which is more focused on arbitration-related matters than AN/I). If none of my recommendations are adequate, I would also appreciate suggestions on how to handle this matter (for instance, should I simply take this directly to AN/I the next time it happens?). It's truly bothersome to keep having my reputation besmirched throughout Wikipedia. The IBAN was certainly a great help in stopping the source, but the false accusations continue being spread by users with apparent ties to the involved parties. Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 16:21, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
Response to Astynax
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---Response to Roger---
Note: I suppose that another part of the question here is the distinction between the "evidence phase" and the "final decision". Astynax below assures that what was placed in the "evidence phase" can be used in the Arbitration Committee's voice. I find this view strange, particularly as my understanding is that the "evidence phase" is where parties (involved and peripheral) could submit their position on the subject, whereas the "final decision" is what the Arbitration Committee ultimately had to say about the matter. Some kind of clarification is clearly needed either for me, for the others, or for everyone.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 07:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
Penultimate Request (also long)
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Clarification Questions:
These are all my clarification questions. Salvio was kind enough to provide his response to them ( [14]):
Astynax, all I am asking is that you (and your friends) please stop casting aspersions about me. Simply drop the stick.
Hence, I believe that the only solutions here are:
Yes, I know that this clarification request is unusual. However, I think the statements made by Astynax & The_ed17, along with my evidence from Neotarf, are good examples of the why the unusual explanation is necessary. Best wishes.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 06:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC) |
Per the recommendations of Salvio and ES&L, I request that my clarification request please be withdrawn.
I apologize for the continuing drama, but you can follow the story at AN/I (
[18]). Assuming my WrestleMania example to be correct, I call dibs on Hulk Hogan.
Again, sorry everyone.
Best wishes.--
MarshalN20 |
Talk 16:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
MarshalN20 is mistaken that reliable, mainstream sources were not produced linking Nacionalismos and its apologists to Fascism during the arbitration case during the Evidence phase. The Signpost article thus seems to be on solid footing, and there are certainly other mainstream historians that could be cited in support of equating Nacionalismo and quasi-historical Nacionalismos accounts with Fascism. MarshalN20 joined Cambalachero/MBelgrano in defending edits based upon those sources. I am unsure what motivated MarshalN20 to lodge yet another request regarding this case, what this complaint has to do with his block, or what he is asking be clarified. If he has a complaint against the behavior of Neotarf, who did not participate in the arbcom case, surely this is not the place to lodge it. • Astynax talk 00:03, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
+1. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:18, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I’m not sure why I am being named as a party here. I have never edited in this topic area or with this group of editors.
The Signpost Arbitration Report has included the same basic synopsis of the Argentine History case since the April 1st, 2013 issue, over nine months ago. Marshal was not named in any of these reports. The only time this user was named in an Arbitration Report with regards to this case was in the June 26, 2013 report, when the case was closed and the findings passed unanimously by the committee were quoted verbatim.
Marshal has never expressed any concerns about the reports on the talk pages, or by contacting me via my talk page or by email. He did however post a comment here after he was mentioned in connection with one of his requests regarding his Latin American history topic ban. At that time I declined to expand on the report, as I don’t consider these requests to be very interesting to a general audience, plus it's a lot of work, but I invited him to add his reflections. He did not.
Marshal has also misquoted me: e.g. when he quotes this: "They were ganging up to bully him." the actual quote is "WHO CLAIMED they were ganging up to bully him." (emphasis mine)
No one has accused Marshal of being a “fascist” (small “f”). The reference to Fascism (capital “F”) refers to sources associated with the Revisionismo movement of the 1930s. My comments at WikiProject Editor Retention were to express surprise after an editor was sanctioned by AE after posting at yet another one of Marshal’s topic ban review requests.
Query: If Marshal is topic banned, how is he posting comments at the Signpost and at Clarification Requests?
Regards, — Neotarf ( talk) 08:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
This is ridiculous to be here: Marshal was advised to take others' behaviour to ANI, and that's that. Period. That said, Asyntax has spent every single one of his posts here proving Marshal to be right. Asyntax' comments are 110 degrees off of what the findings of fact were, and is ascribing very different words and meanings to ArbCom's findings. This clearly violates WP:NPA (see WP:WIAPA), and refuses to remove them even when appropriately notified of their error. However, nobody on this board will block for it, and Marshal knows it. So Marshal, close this well-intentioned, but poorly thought-out filing (after all, you WERE told the right locale), and use diff's to the links as part of your proof. Someone is quite clearly trying to drive you away from specific articles and casting false aspersions. Editors are not permitted to put words in ArbCom's mouths that were not there to begin with in order to invalidate your edits ES &L 10:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:27, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Case affected : Infoboxes arbitration case ( t) ( ev / t) ( w / t) ( pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
Information about amendment request
As already stated while the case was open, this puts Andy in the position not being able to add infoboxes to articles which he creates. A proposal to change that, Include infoboxes in new articles which they create, was then supported by ColonelHenry, Johnbod, Crisco 1492, Montanabw, improved wording requested by Philosopher, Mackensen and SchroCat. The proposal was opposed by Giano and Folantin, and was discussed.
Today we saw one of Andy's articles as lead DYK on the Main page: Magistrate of Brussels. I ask to add a clause that ends the restriction on his newly created articles: he is in no conflict with any other user, responsible for the content of an article he creates, and is not in conflict with the interests of Wikipedia adding an infobox for a painting, a street or a military person. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:27, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
{{Infobox Bach composition/sandbox | title = {{lang|de|Ich muss weg}} | bwv = 999 | type = [[List of Bach cantatas|Secular cantata]] | image = Road Runner decal 2 Detail.jpg | image_size = 160px }}
I wasn't aware of Gerda's plans to make this request, but I thank her for it and endorse it (I had intended to make such a request at a later date). I wish to include infoboxes in articles I create, and there appears to be no cogent reason why I should not. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
If the restriction was to be removed from articles he recently created (which should be classified both by (a) article age and (b) number of edits by other editors), then I would also recommend that he be allowed to defend his reasoning to include said infoboxes at the appropriate places. Without this, editors could unilaterally remove boxes from Andy's recently-created articles and he would not be able to do a thing about it. I doubt it will come up often, but I at this point don't see harm also granting him this capability. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 00:10, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: I like your ideas, save for the first one - I would amend it so that if specific article(s) have/has few or no other contributors, he would be given a bit more leeway with the infoboxes in such article(s). Call it the someone's got to keep an eye on it clause. I also would support a revision count instead or in addition to the article age (since creation) for definition of such articles.- Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 03:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
If the committee is going to allow an exemption for articles Andy has recently created, please could they define what they mean by "recently". Doing so would remove the potential for much argument that could very easily lead to more work at AE and/or another amendment/clarification request down the line. I also endorse Penwhales's comments about discussion.
As your starter for 10, how about:
Hopefully something like that should be acceptable to all parties and leave no significant grey areas. Thryduulf ( talk) 02:20, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Folantin: if you want to accuse Andy of sockpuppetry you should make a formal presentation of the evidence at WP:SPI. If you don't, you should withdrawn the insinuations you've made here. Thryduulf ( talk) 01:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
@ NE Ent and EatsShootsAndLeaves: I agree absolutely about the disservice WP:OWN does to the encyclopaedia. However, if you read the case pages you will see that last year's committee approved principles and findings of fact that endorsed WP:OWNership of articles by those opposed to infoboxes, despite repeated comments by myself and others ( RexxS and Gerda Arendt included) on the talk pages about how bad this would be. So officially now any author can legitimately object to an infobox on "their" article on the grounds of "I don't like it". Thryduulf ( talk) 13:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Under such conditions, and given that the subject has consistently regarded "authorial choice" in excluding a box from an article one creates as "ownership"....why is this request here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:47, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Since late September 2013 (i.e. just after the ArbCom sanctions passed), a Birmingham IP 80.249.48.109 ( talk · contribs) has taken a sudden interest in infoboxes. Funnily enough, this has tended to occur around the same time Andy Mabbett has contributed to many of the same articles.-- Folantin ( talk) 11:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is socking, meat puppetry or something else, but there are more than enough WP:DUCK grounds for suspicion here. According to Nikkimaria,several of these IPs have been behaving in the same way [19] [20] [21]. All Birmingham educational addresses. According to his own Wikipedia user page, Andy Mabbett lives in Birmingham and works in education.
Examples: The only users to edit the Birmingham Union workhouse article are Pigsonthewing and an anonymous infobox-adding IP: [22]. Almost exactly the same thing happens with Sir Richard Ranulph FitzHerbert, 9th Baronet [23]: the only edit the IP makes is to add an infobox, while all other edits to the article (barring a minor fix) are by Andy Mabbett. On Denville Hall, the only edit [24] an anonymous IP makes to the page is to add an infobox right among a bunch of edits by Pigsonthewing [25]. An IP manages to produce a fully formatted infobox in its sixth ever edit to Wikipedia [26], again right in the middle of a bunch of Andy Mabbett's contributions to the same article.
This is well beyond coincidence. -- Folantin ( talk) 09:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Update I've now gone ahead and asked for an SPI per Arbitrator Beeblebrox's request. The evidence is here [28]. -- Folantin ( talk) 14:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
It is exactly this sort of adversity by innuendo that make editors like Folantin so poisonous to the collaborative environment we should be striving to create on Wikipedia. There are 1 million people in Birmingham city and 2 million people in the surrounding urban area, including both Andy and myself. I live as close to the city centre as Andy does and have far more links with education than he does now, or ever had. Why not accuse me of being the IPs? A look at the geolocation for the IPs that Folantin lists shows that they are mainly school addresses. Here's the homepage for Birmingham Grid for Learning: http://www.bgfl.org/ - see for yourself that it's part of the National Grid for Learning (which connects schools to the internet) and you can quickly click through from the homepage to the directory of schools, http://services.bgfl.org/cfpages/schools/default.cfm where you'll find that Birmingham has hundreds of schools connected to BGfL. Is Folantin now claiming that Andy is getting into schools and using their computers to edit Wikipedia pages? I'm afraid that it's far more likely that there are many Wikipedia editors in Birmingham schools who may add infoboxes, considering the majority of articles on the English Wikipedia have one (at least 2.4 million out of 4.4 million). I suppose the next step will be Folantin blaming Andy for all of those as well? -- RexxS ( talk) 14:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
"a core group of editors will have worked to build the article up to its present state, and will revert edits that they find detrimental in order, they believe, to preserve the quality of the encyclopedia. Such reversion does not necessarily constitute ownership ..."they are completely blind to the qualification
"...and will normally be supported by an explanatory edit summary referring to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, previous reviews and discussions, or specific grammar or prose problems introduced by the edit."The ArbCom has given carte blanche to owners of articles to blindly revert good-faith edits, without even a pretence of explanation beyond "we say so". Until that behaviour is recognised and tackled, conflict will ensue and we'll lose good contributors until we're only left with the article owners. Yes, you can reduce "disruption" by banning one entire side of a content dispute, but taking sides in that manner will not be ultimately conducive to the development of a multimedia, online encyclopedia that anyone is supposed to be able to edit. -- RexxS ( talk) 12:23, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
{{Infobox bradjoke |name = Brad |diff = [//en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FClarification_and_Amendment&diff=590705223&oldid=590704935] |context= arbcom amendment request |self-reference = yes |type = irony, dramatic; wry; sardonic |based in truth=yes |funny = disputed }}
Please see also Finding on Ownership and stewardship. NE Ent 00:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
For the life of me, I cannot understand what the kerfluffle is. All articles should have infoboxes. Really. They're a quick, immediately visible summary of the subject. We don't get to determine whether it has one or not based on who created it, or has the most edits - that would be WP:OWN. This is one thing NOT WORTH FIGHTING ABOUT ES &L 09:59, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I've stayed out of this until now, but I must strenuously object to the proposal below to tighten Gerda's restrictions. She came here in good faith to ask that Andy be allowed the same level of activity that she currently enjoys, and now ArbCom wants to slap her down for simply asking? What an absurd result this is! This is not an "obsession," onthe part of Gerda, it is a legitimate question being raised. Many of us have a "STF?" reaction to the anti-infobox "obsession" of a few very strongly-opposed editors of classical music articles. It was their very harsh and bullying manner that led to the case that boomeranged and created this whole mess. Given that well over half of all wikipedia articles - and undoubtably, an even higher percentage of those that are B-Class and higher - currently include an infobox, this idea to sanction Gerda for just asking a restriction on another user to be softened is one of the most ill-conceived notions I've seen! Within many projects the infobox is standard (with assorted "drahmahz" over content, but not existence). I urge the members below to reconsider their actions. Montanabw (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
@ESL, RexxS, NE Ent, I agree 100%. Montanabw (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2014 (UTC) @ Worm That Turned, I have to admit shock that you have even proposed this draconian sanction. Until this, I have had considerable respect for you, but I am dumbfounded that you think that running off a top notch contributor from an area of interest will solve the infobox wars. Montanabw (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
On a wider point, what those who participated in the infobox case should be doing is preparing the ground for a discussion to help address ways to include the data contained in infoboxes in ways that do not force articles to have infoboxes, and to address the wider question of why when 'boxes' in general were first created, infoboxes gravitated to the top right-hand corner, and other boxes (e.g. navboxes and succession boxes) gravitated to the bottom of articles (series boxes ended up in-between). If categories were displayed at the top of articles, they would get argued over a lot more. It is the location of infoboxes in 'prime territory' right up front that causes much of the dissension IMO. Find some way of resolving that tension and people might argue less over them. Also tackle the issue of 'narrow' vs 'broad' infoboxes. But all these issues can only be addressed if the wider community actually has those discussions. Carcharoth ( talk) 01:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
and are in the process of removing another: no, the three people you pinged all opposed motion two, a motion which would have removed Gerda Arendt ( talk · contribs) from the discussion entirely. L Faraone 20:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
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0–1 | 7 |
2–3 | 6 |
4–5 | 5 |
For reference, the relevant remedy relating to Pigsonthewing ( talk · contribs) is:
1.1) Pigsonthewing is indefinitely banned from adding, or discussing the addition or removal of, infoboxes.
Proposed:
In the Infoboxes case, remedy 1.1 is modified with immediate effect to the following text:
to be enacted on the passing of this motion.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
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0–1 | 6 |
2–3 | 5 |
4–5 | 4 |
For reference, the relevant remedy relating to Gerda Arendt ( talk · contribs) is:
3.2) Gerda Arendt is indefinitely restricted from: adding or deleting infoboxes; restoring an infobox that has been deleted; or making more than two comments in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article. They may participate in wider policy discussions regarding infoboxes with no restriction, and include infoboxes in new articles which they create.
Proposed:
In the Infoboxes case, remedy 3.2 is vacated with immediate effect and replaced with the following remedy:
to be enacted on the passing of this motion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by RexxS ( talk) at 19:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I am dismayed at finding myself asking once again for clarification of the decision made last September in the Infoboxes case. I am again confronted by Dr. Blofeld taking what I believe to be an utterly inappropriate interpretation of one of your decisions:
It's just everytime we have an article on the main page this "why doesn't it have an infobox" argument breaks out, when all 10 arbitrators have decided it's up to the article writers to decide and they're not compulsory.
I believe this to be entirely inaccurate as I cannot see that the Arbitrators would advance a policy of restricting content decisions to just those editors who self-identify as "the article writers". For comparison, the text of the finding of fact is:
The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article by site policies or guidelines. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.
It is this finding of fact that I wish to see clarified, precisely to identify who were intended by the wording "the editors at each individual article".
Several editors had questioned on the Talk:Hattie Jacques page the absence of an infobox, and Dr. Blofeld is now using his interpretation of your decision to deny new editors any say in the decision concerning infoboxes. His comment was made immediately after that of MrDannyDoodah, who will now be left with the impression that his views cannot carry any weight on that talk page. I have asked Dr. Blofeld to reverse his opinion and make that clear, but he has declined to do so and insists that you would acknowledge his interpretation. Consequently I wish to settle this issue completely by an unambiguous statement from ArbCom on who may take part in a decision to add an infobox to an article. -- RexxS ( talk) 19:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Neither of the article authors want an infobox. Take your infobox Nazism somewhere else? You got away with that by blubbing to me that you didn't want to be blocked. I stepped back from that request as a gesture of goodwill to you and this is how you respond. On this occasion you have falsely stated that ArbCom has "decided it's up to the article writers to decide" on infoboxes. I challenged your assertion on your talk page but you chose to defend your indefensible statement. I have received further insults from you on that same page for taking the time to inform you that I was seeking clarification. You have had plenty of time to correct your blatant falsehood on Talk:Hattie Jacques, but have chosen not to. We are here for a second time because of your actions and solely because of them. You need to learn that when you screw up, you stop blaming everyone else and fix the problem you've caused yourself. -- RexxS ( talk) 19:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
"through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article"when that is the verbatim text of an ArbCom Finding of Fact, and are suggesting that I seek from the community clarification of an ArbCom finding. Well, it's an interesting precedent to set and I'm astonished that you're comfortable with that course. It does however cast some light on the pure folly of basing an ArbCom decision on a Finding of Fact that even ArbCom doesn't understand. -- RexxS ( talk) 16:44, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Rexx has once again misinterpreted me and is looking for little more than support and to try to prove me wrong by bringing this here and wasting your time. I'm not mistaken in my interpretation, I believe the arbitrators have stated that consensus is to be reached by anybody interested in the article who may turn up at the talk page and want to discuss infoboxes, not just among those who've written the article. My message on the talk page about article writers deciding was how he mistook what I meant I think. Potentially several hundred people could comment on having an infobox issue to come to a true consensus, but my point in saying what I said was that in practice the decision to use an infobox really is typically and generally decided by discussion and consensus between a small group people who have written the article in question provided that nobody objects to it and I'm sure the arbitrators here would acknowledge this. However, should anybody turn up and make an issue of an infobox then I believe what was agreed here is that the editors who made the original agreement not to use an infobox must be open to new input and strive to gain a new consensus. It isn't practical to request dozens or even hundreds of editors to comment on one infobox in every article. The three of us as normal came to the decision not to use an infobox in Hattie Jacques, that was a consensus, just not wider consensus which seems is now needed. But this process every time one of our articles hits TFA has become disruptive and disrespectful to editors who bother to promote articles and have to deal with controversy over them. It's reached the point that we're being put off wanting to promote articles to FA and dreading the day a article hits the main page because it's inevitable that we'll again have to argue over them for hours. That's not right.
If anything I would ask the arb to look into a new clause which prevents editors discussing infobox issues while the article is on the main page and to encourage editors to try to come to a consensus afterwards if people are still concerned about the issue. I approached User talk:Floquenbeam to ask whether this was practical or not. Above all, arbitrators you decided that infoboxes are not compulsory, but in practice the way discussions end up, they end up eventually being forced and passed off as if they are indeed essential. I think this needs a revision and reassessment as, consensus or no consensus, they're treated as compulsory by editors who turn up on the talk pages in practice. The problem we're getting is that articles which wouldn't normally attract much attention over infoboxes are becoming war grounds for infobox disputes purely because editors have spotted them on the main page and this is immediately going to counteract any original consensus agreed on by the article writers which would have remained intact if the article wasn't featured and open to the scrutiny of thousands of people on the main page. Unless this case here can progress into something really constructive in terms of how to nip TFA infobox disputes in the bud then I'm afraid Rexx is wasting all of your time asking you to simply clarify as I know that generally you mean all editors have a right to discuss infoboxes, not just article writers, and he's simply misunderstood what I was getting at and has once again jumped the gun in running here. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
@Rexx So if I screwed up, why is it you who is requesting arb to waste their time clarifying everything? You'd simply accept I was so obviously wrong (with what you thought I was trying to say) and move on wouldn't you? Your statement contradicts why you decided to come here. If it was I who screwed up why would you need to come here? You're the one I'm afraid who has taken what I said a little too literally and seriously. It isn't right to bring this here. I'm following the advice of Beeb and Vic on this and am walking away from this as I don't think it's worth my time. If anybody here would like me to respond to a question ping me and I'll respectfully respond, thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanbw The thing is I haven't overreacted or responded madly arguing against "nefarious infobox pushers". I simply quietly said that the arb decided that infoboxes are not compulsory and are to be decided upon by the people who write the articles as they're writing it. Rexx misinterpreted what I said and thought it necessary to come running here which I see an unnecessary and troublesome. If he'd simply accepted my argument and quietly thought "you're wrong" instead of causing a big song and dance about asking me to correct myself and coming here things would still be amicable. Even if he has the best of intentions the frequent infobox discussion everytime an article hits TFA does become wearisome for the contributors, and its time something was resolved to stop it happening every week or two.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:17, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanbw You're right about that and it's what I've said above. In principle it is up to anybody to decide. But take your New Forest pony for instance. I'd imagine that it was your choice and anybody else who contributed to the article to use an infobox based on an understanding of what is typically used for such article and your preference to include one. The notion that the wider community are to decide the infobox issue on each and every article like this really isn't what happens in practice. If I, Schrod, Cass, Tim etc came along on the day of the TFA and started kicking up a fuss that the infobox looks ugly and arguing that it degrades the article as the article writer you'd surely stand your ground and object and argue that there was a consensus between you and whoever else wrote it to include one. You'd be miffed wouldn't you that editors who have absolutely nothing to do with the horses project snicking their nose in and trying to force a "new consensus" and try to prove that more people don't want the infobox than do. You'd surely be even more astounded if you found yourself swiftly in front of the arb over it wouldn't you? I personally have no problems with the infobox of course and don't think that, but I would never dream of coming along on your TFA and causing a fuss over it, even if I detested it. It is disrespectful to the editors who've bothered to write the article and their decision to use/not use an infobox. Obviously technically anybody can comment, but I do think people should be less forceful in their approach and at least be more accepting of what the people who've bothered to write the article and promote it to FA feel on the matter. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Rexx, you keep saying that I "shut down the debate" but I did no such thing. I have no authority to "close" a debate and it wasn't as if what I said came anywhere near resembling it. I simply quietly said that the arb made the decision that infoboxes are not compulsory above all. I didn't say "thou must not ever inquire about the adding of an infobox, never mention it again, this conversation is final" sort of thing did I? That's why I found your demands on my talk page so preposterous. Even if you disagree with what I said in the exact wording, simply ignore it and continue to argue your point. As for me not being an editor in good standing, I'm sure even the people who are on good terms with you are shaking their heads at that one too. You're digging a hole for yourself and I can see you continuing to worry about infoboxes in the future to the point you're going to end up being banned from discussing them. I'm very disappointed in your overreaction over this, you seemed a thoroughly decent and reasonable fella in emails a while back. You've got to take a look at how you yourself reacted. If you'd simply said on the talk page "the arb didn't mean just the article writers and you know that, we have a right to discuss them" I'd not have battered an eyelid and things would still be amicable.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I think the committee should ignore this request, otherwise this situation will go on and on. RexxS comments frequently about infoboxes, as shown in the following very few and selective diffs, none of which come from articles RexxS has edited to my knowledge (I could be wrong!): March 2013, March 2013, May 2013, August 2013, December 2013. Furthermore, in terms of not having to "put up with being called a "troublemaker"" - being called a liar wasn't much fun either, [30]. In my view, everyone who posted to any of the case pages (myself included), should take a long step back and ignore infoboxes for at least six months. There are plenty of other things to do here. Victoria ( tk) 22:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Obviously, there's no need for clarification as the committee already cited current policy Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Use_of_infoboxes and does not make policy, so any new policy for mainpage / FA infoboxes should come from the community -- as requested by the committee in their findings Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Community_discussion_recommended. NE Ent 23:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Another "clarification"? And on something that's not really an issue? This continuance of the infobox thing isn't helping anyone, and I can only support, cheer and echo Victoria's good advice above. I'm now so sick and tired of the infobox nonsense that, with apologies to @ Bencherlite:, I'm not going to put any further articles up for TFA, as they end up being involved in the same old endlessly dreary arguments about the damned boxes: mostly about the general concept of boxes (the one-size-fits-all mantra), rather than whether a specific individual article needs a box. Sadly people seem to be unwilling to make the distinction between the general and the specific, and between the policy-led approach against the "I like them, so we need one" approach. - SchroCat ( talk) 23:12, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanabw: Thankfully the site-wide consensus, as expressed by the MoS, differs from your personal opinion. - SchroCat ( talk) 22:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanabw, There was no "snark" intended, and I'm sorry if you read it as such. I will correct a few errors you may seem to be labouring under, but firstly, could you please drop the overly-emotive language and try and assume at least some good faith? Calling editors whose opinion you disagree with "bullies"
is unlikely to help matters, and neither is describing someone's actions as "Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet behaviour"
, so perhaps we could deal with the issues, rather than drop into name calling? As to the substance of your comments.
"The consensus is hardly "site-wide"As my point related to the MoS, I'm not sure why you think the MoS is not a reflection of the site-wide consensus of all editors? (rather than just "bullies")
"person in good faith adds an infobox, another person throws a conniption fit"I suggest you try reversing it too, just to see the opposing point of view. I've seen an editor accused of vandalism for the good faith removal of an IB that was inserted against a long-standing consensus: the conniption fits are happily shared around all-comers here.
"the debate SHOULD be about design and content, not whether infoboxes exist"Why? The MoS is inherently flexible on the point of use ("The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article"), and reflects the fact that one-size-does-not-fit-all. Like the majority of people who are flexible in relation to IBs, I that sometimes they can be good, sometimes they can be essential. And sometimes they are an abomination. Our policy has flexibility in the approach, which is where the problems can arise—and it's not just about the design and content.
— SchroCat ( talk) 08:37, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
OK, after noting for the record that I have had positive interactions with both RexxS and Blofeld, you are both good editors, and I really wish the two of you would just sit down, have a beer, and bury this hatchet, my thoughts: We're here again because are still anti-AGF behavior going on. If people would just live and let live, the guideline that the people who actually care about INDIVIDUAL articles (or, for that matter, individual SUBJECTS, such as opera or even TFAs) could decide by consensus would work. But, "teh dreaded infoboxen" issue is turning into a damn witchhunt. One person in good faith adds an infobox, another person throws a conniption fit about it and begins to accuse the pro-infoboxer of all sorts of nefarious motives. I have long held the view that any article that is part of a project that has gone to the trouble of creating an infobox really should consider using them as a default for consistency within the subject and the conveyance of needed data available at a glance; back in the Stone Age, my old set of World Book Encyclopedias had a standardized summary format box (predecessor to "teh infoboxen") in most of the major biographies or geography or science articles, and wiki is, at root, an encyclopedia. This issue is (in my view) mostly a graphic design element (though I get the metadata argument and think metadata is useful, though I know squat about programming it to happen), just like the wikipedia logo that's on every page on wiki. Not everyone is going to like every element, but the debate SHOULD be about design and content, not whether infoboxes exist. That train left a long time ago -- well over half of all wikipedia articles have infoboxes, an overwhelming majority in the sciences, and especially FA and GA-class articles. These dramas SHOULD be about what goes into an infobox, how the layout looks, etc., not whether they are included. Let's just ratchet down this Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet behavior. Montanabw (talk) 21:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Schrocat, your snark above is precisely the problem. The consensus is hardly "site-wide," it is merely the people who showed up, mostly the bullies. Montanabw (talk) 04:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Blofeld, I suspect "people who write the articles as they're writing it" is the rub, I believe that the actual arbcom decision was something more like "editors" - not specified as to whether these are just the lead editors or also the wikignomes and wikifairies. Hence why we are here Montanabw (talk) 04:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Bencherlite, I like your proposal a). I think that the three day rule is probably something everyone could live with. I strongly dislike your c) as this would be a temptation for someone to nom a FA for TFA just to shut down such discussions. That said, raising an infobox discussion should be a talk page issue and not a TFA issue, so if it's raised at a TFA proposal, it should just be summarily dispatched back to the article and not be an issue for TFA in either direction. I am leaning against your b), for the same reasons as c); no harm in having a discussion about the issue, but it isn't relevant to TFA or not TFA.
Montanabw
(talk) 02:30, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
@Bencherlite, not sure you read my above clearly; I can see your argument for a 3-day moratorium on massive changes (though not discussion), it's the rest I have issues with. Montanabw (talk) 05:00, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
@Dr. Blofeld, you make a point about articles WITH infoboxes, but I think RexxS is correct that never in the history of WP TFA has someone come in and demanded an infobox in a "stable" (horse pun intended) article be removed. Again, infoboxes are the future, and those opposing them are drawing a Maginot Line that, like all anachronisms, will not be easily defended down the road... Montanabw (talk) 05:07, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
How sad that we find ourselves here. I was a co-author for Hattie Jacques and I felt compelled to write here, although I have been very brief in the discussions on the talk page. TFA is a very bitter sweet experience for me owing to the same old infobox arguments which occur during, and in the days after TFA. Now, I like RexxS; I find him to be a very knowledgable and approachable fellow and he has helped me out on many, many occasions with my many technical issues. However, I am dismayed with his his attempts to force the infobox issue onto yet another article that chooses not to have one and then run off to the arbitrators when things don't go his way. This behaviour seems indicative of someone who is trying to force infoboxes onto an article that choose not to have one.
The infobox debate is as old as the hills and to have it discussed everytime an infoboxless article appears on TFA is a pain in the backside. I am not completely opposed to them; they can be helpful on political, geographical, sporting and film articles, but I find them utterly useless on Classical music and theatrical biographies as well as art and architecture pages. I am sick to the back teeth of the same old arguments after TFA. I really can't be bothered to spend my many months writing FAs, frequently at my own expense, only to have people who haven't had any prior interest in the article to come along and force an infobox on them after TFA. Cassianto Talk 11:41, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Now, helping bring an article to featured status does not absolve you from having to discuss infoboxes if someone raises the issue (and, frankly, for all that some arbs might wish that particular editors dropped the subject for six months, even if that wish came true the problem still won't go away). But I do think that issues such as infobox discussions should not be allowed to impair the TFA experience. Infoboxes can of course be discussed before, during and after the whole FA nomination process, but a time-out zone for TFA would help remove one area of particular tension.
Someone can probably find links or diffs to prove me right or wrong, but I have a recollection that someone was previously topic-banned from adding infoboxes / raising infobox issues on articles that were, or were about to be, at TFA. What I would like to suggest is this:
This idea would not make everyone happy but it may be an interim solution of sorts. For the avoidance of doubt, I am neither in the pro-infobox nor the anti-infobox camp, although I am probably not alone in belonging to the are-these-boxes-really-worth-so-much-time-one-way-or-the-other camp. Bencherlite Talk 23:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanabw: I've found the link I was thinking of [31] although it was a community decision not an Arbcom one, and was for all edits to TFAs not just infoboxes. NB the decision was to ban the individual from all articles nominated or scheduled as TFA, not just the TFA - if FA writers are inhibited from having their articles at TFA because of boredom with repeated infobox discussions precipitated solely by the article appearing at TFA, the moratorium has to cover the run-up to TFA day, not just TFA day. Anyway, if Arbcom says that this proposal is not within their remit, it can be discussed elsewhere later. Bencherlite Talk 13:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC) @Rexxs: "It is however commonplace for editors to ask why a TFA doesn't have an infobox. That should tell you something." Yes, it tells me that when certain writers of FAs feel that they cannot put up with the additional discussion of infoboxes on top of all the other crap that having an article at TFA brings, they're probably justified in feeling that way since even you say that these discussions are "commonplace". I'm not asking for all FAs to be immune from infobox-related discussions for all time - just that in the period running up to TFA day editors should be spared the hassle of having to defend the decision not to have an infobox. Dennis Brown said in the topic ban discussion I mentioned "The debate over info boxes is a valid debate, but it is a matter of timing. ... And I tend to be in favor of infoboxes in general, but not in favor of choosing the worst possible time to make a stand on them." Similarly Franamax said "I can imagine how demoralizing it must be for an editor who has sweated and slaved to get every detail right for FAC, it goes to the main page, then someone shows up simply because they feel the need to make a point. Yes, we are encouraged to be bold and try to improve articles. No, that is not the right place to do it." Those commments were made in 2012, and here we are in 2014 with TFA authors still feeling demoralized because other editors use TFA day to raise an issue that is obviously not going to result in the principal authors saying "Of course! Why didn't we think of it earlier? Let's add one straightaway!" Bencherlite Talk 22:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)@RexxS: Please stop putting words in my mouth or misrepresenting my attitude - I am trying to look after TFA authors during the TFA experience, not say that their views are unchallengeable for all time. And I'm not saying that editors raising the question should be sanctioned simply for raising a question when (hypothetically for these purposes) there is consensus not to allow such questions to be raised during TFA, merely that such discussions should be stopped until the article is off the main page. This latest issue arose because some TFA authors had to respond to comments such as "To be honest it makes the page look misleadingly incomplete to not have one there, giving people the initial impression that the whole article may not be that complete" ( Talk:Hattie Jacques). That is not an appropriate way to discuss the issue, particularly not when having an article at TFA brings enough stresses anyway. That is "hassle" - or perhaps you think it's an appropriate comment? That is an approach of some (not all) on the pro-infobox side that requires TFA authors to justify or defend their position. If I'm wrong, perhaps you could show me the last time that an infobox discussion at a TFA led to the uncontroversial addition of an infobox. This whole infobox issue is poisoning some FA authors' attitudes to TFA, and that's why I made my suggestion, because TFA is my area of especial concern – otherwise I would simply have stayed away from the whole bloody issue. I do not want to have any more unwilling participants at TFA – I have enough of those already... ;-) Bencherlite Talk 11:22, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Note: I have no idea what the present dispute is
It amazes me how different policy becomes whenever it's inside a little black border. WP:LINKSPAM is so out of control that people routinely delete lists of unused references from the See Also sections of half-written articles, yet we have infoboxes like Template:The Beatles that spam 200 links to each of 200 articles, so people on Google can't look up what two songs have in common without getting 200 spam hits from Wikipedia that link both articles. Or for BLP -- if I wrote in the lede section of Stop Islamization of America that those people had something to do with the Srebrenica massacre purely on account of their condemnation of Islam, I'd be lucky not to get blocked. But put it over in the black box under an icon (the only illustration in that article) that has no particular relevance to their group, and you're golden. ArbCom and other admins should look for ways to have a more consistent policy, inside and outside the box. Wnt ( talk) 22:13, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
I have just read this request, and I have to wonder whether I've read the same page as the arbitrators who have commented on it? RexxS asked the committee for a very simple clarification of one of its decisions about which there has been a disagreement. If the committee is not prepared to clarify the meaning of its decisions it should close this page and personally deal with the fallout from its ambiguous wording.
Personally I think giving clarification when asked for in good faith is a core part of being arbitrator in the exactly same way, and for exactly the same reasons, that giving clarification and explanation of your actions when requested in good faith is a core requirement of being an administrator.
So, to cut to the chase, which of the following statements is the intended meaning of the word "editors" in the sentence: "Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article."
Each of A-F is a reasonable interpretation of a statement made by one or more people who have commented here. Thryduulf ( talk) 22:13, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Dr. Blofeld, for your beautiful addition to my latest infobox, and thank you, arbitrators, for clarification of the questions just above, as soon as possible. I still hope that in the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, all interested editors may speak up at all times, but if that needs to be restricted, please precisely so. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:50, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
More praise to Dr. Blofeld for this preserving edit, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 15:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Clapping also for Brianboulton (for an identibox in a TFA) and Voceditenore (for an infobox in an opera), da capo! -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 07:57, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by — Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) at 12:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Lately, I have been the target of harassment by a slew of sockpuppets of editors who have been banned from this website, in some cases for years. Allegedly, these count as "users with whom [I am] in dispute". Is this correct? Considering how WP:SPI is chronically backlogged and as is evident banned users have all the free time in the world to continue their harassment campaigns, using the #wikipedia-en-spi channel or using IRC to contact an administrator who has been assisting me in on-site requests to notify them of new sockpuppets will solve these issues affecting the site as well as my ability to participate on this site without constant harassment.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 12:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Carcharoth: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dragonron (actually Wiki-star, with most of the previous investigation held under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Zarbon and Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Zarbon because of Zarbon suffering harassment and impersonation) and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/AS92813 (highly likely to be BuickCenturyDriver/ Don't Feed the Zords [both same operator], cases previously Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/BuickCenturyDriver & Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Don't Feed the Zords).— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 04:38, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Nug's posting here is irrelevant and retaliatory to the content dispute currently under discussion at Talk:Soviet Union, as has been most of his behavior to me since I re-entered the discussion on that page for the past week, including his attempts to WP:boomerang the thread I started at WP:ANI and his piling onto discussions started by banned users' sockpuppets. The thread he points to at ANI, after he repeatedly tried to derail it, had an administrator arrive and note that the behavior of the user I was reporting was problematic. Sending a message to N-HH to inform him of renewed discussion that he was once a party to is not canvassing, nor is suggesting to him the possible venues in which to raise our problems with Nug's behavior on the article. And no, the "alleged harassment" has not ended. The fact that one banned user has been harassing someone for 8 years and another has returned a year after his last socks were shut down shows that both individuals who have harassed me in the past several weeks will continue to do so once they find the technical means to evade the blocks put in place, as they seem to be adept at.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 10:22, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Carcharoth: At this point I don't know if enforcing the ban counts as harassment when it comes to one of the users (see all the edits between protections [also for some reason he's violating copyright now]) but if something can be done about that, then by all means help me figure that out.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 13:07, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
"Regardless of the original merits of this sanction, five years later it does not appear to be serving a legitimate purpose in preventing disruption."
I am delighted to see such a common-sense statement on ArbCom, though the barn door is long locked on vacancy. That being said, I support the request and motion.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 16:10, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Carcharoth: See User talk:Callanecc#174.236.68.115, WP:ANI#Recent behavior of ryulong, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dragonron/Archive and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/AS92813/Archive. And for the record, I also support the motion. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 03:16, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Ryulong's seems to have an apparent tendency to seek administrative intervention against perceived content opponents, for example this recent ANI thread titled " Nanshu's ad hominem attacks". I've lately come to his attention and this apparent attempt at canvasing here [32] concerns me as I am afraid IRC could be used as a back channel to agitate against his perceived opponents without their knowledge. The existing mechanism at ANI and SPI obviously work, it's transparent and the alleged harassment has ended. -- Nug ( talk) 07:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Ryulong, did you ask for help from the Wikimedia Foundation with all the harassment you have been getting? They are usually really on the ball and eager to help en.wp editors, especially prolific content editors and/or administrators such as yourself, be free from bullying, intimidation, or harassing behavior. The WMF is especially responsive and appreciative of those volunteers that have spent large percentages of their lives helping improve this project. Haven't you been offered the free T-shirt recently, for example? If so, doesn't that mitigate all the harassment you have received over the years? Cla68 ( talk) 10:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
The following sanction is vacated with immediate effect.
3) Should Ryulong be found to be seeking or requesting any administrative action on IRC against users with whom he is in dispute, he may be reported to ANI or the Arbitration Enforcement page.
Enacted - Rs chen 7754 17:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
During the original case Ryulong was admonished for excessive off-wiki requests of an inappropriate nature in remedy 3b, which reads in part:
(B) For contacting administrators in private to seek either blocks on users he is in dispute with, or the performance of other administrative actions. Any further occurrence would lead to sanctions.
The admonishment is left in place as warning not to return to the excessive and/or inappropriate behavior of the past, but the final sentence "Any further occurrence would lead to sanctions." is to be stricken.
Enacted - Rs chen 7754 17:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by
HJ Mitchell |
Penny for your thoughts? at 10:28, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I would like clarification of the above linked decision, in which five arbitrators, demonstrating their apparently infinite wisdom, declined a case regarding Kevin Gorman's application of an active arbitration remedy, BLP special enforcement. Specifically, I would like ArbCom to clarify:
I've seen a lot of absurd decisions in my time, but Kevin's warning to Eric Corbett, citing the BLP special enforcement remedy, is the single most ludicrous interpretation of an arbitration remedy by an admin I've ever seen; similarly, ArbCom's abdication of responsibility for the actions taken in the enforcement of its remedies by refusing to accept the case is possibly the single worst decision I have ever seen from that body. Both titles have no end of competition. Although Kevin has since admitted that he erred, I do not feel that he fully understands what a monumental lapse in judgement his actions were (for the record, I made some stupid decisions when I was a baby admin, but none of them to do with arbitration remedies) and so a desysop or at least formal, severe admonishment is necessary. By refusing to promptly acknowledge his error, and by repeatedly insulting and attempting to denigrate the subject of his action, Kevin failed to adhere to the policy on admin accountability—a policy which, unfortunately, only ArbCom has the power to enforce—and arguably brought the entire admin corps into disrepute.
Leaving the admin accountability issue as an entirely separate matter (perhaps this should be treated as two clarification requests arising from the same demonstration of infinite wisdom?), Kevin explicitly invoked BLP special enforcement, an arbitration remedy, which puts disputes over the propriety of such action squarely and unambiguously within ArbCom's remit; the only explanation I can think of for your failure to accept a case so obviously within your remit is that the five of you have taken leave of your senses. BLP special enforcement is an active arbitration remedy, so allowing novel interpretations to pass without so much as a bat of an eyelid is bound to lead to creep by encouraging other admins to make similar novel interpretations to shoehorn their actions into the protection of arbitration remedies. I note also that it is in contrast to the actions of your more sensible colleagues at the discretionary sanctions review, where arbitrators have made a conscious effort to prevent such creep and to narrow the gulf between the admin corps and the community as a whole. ArbCom needs to clarify its position, not give one message in one forum and a contradictory message in another, and most of all, it needs to clarify the bounds of admin discretion on BLP special enforcement as sane arbs are trying to do with discretionary sanctions. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:28, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
In brief: what Harry said (though maybe not quite as emphatic?)
At length: well, I'm not going to rewrite this whole thing, so I'll just copy and paste my comment from last time: The...thing, which is one that I really do wish Arbcom would take on, is the fact that Kevin invoked BLP, and particularly the AE sanctions around BLP, to make his sanctions on Eric "stick". For my part, I can't see any plausible way that Eric's original comments are in any way a BLP violation, as he said nothing about the subject of the thread. The (mis)use of BLP and AE sanctions to make one admin's actions stick and exempt them from the usual processes of review is cynical, misguided, and (to me) deeply arrogant, and I think that, if nothing else, it alone warrants some kind of response from Arbcom. Admin authority is enough as it is; apparently calculated maneuvers to further increase one admin's authority without cause needs something.
I understand the desire to make a sensitive topic go away, but I don't think this angle of it is a good one to go uncommented.
Writ Keeper
⚇
♔ 11:09, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
It is hardly mystifying why BLP was invoked. BLP covers controversial, unsourced statements about recently dead people. The admin evidently thought in a conversation that prominently involved thinly veiled referrals to a recently dead person, that the statement was in that vein (controversial and unsourced), others disagree that it was in referral to the recently dead - but the objected to comment actually invoked an action (placing a mental health template) that the recently dead was explicitly said to have taken. So, a discretionary warning was issued, and as far as tools are concerned, it went no further. A problem with discretion is that others will see it differently, and even if "wrong" to others that does not mean a warning was not in discretion. As for the subsequent incivility of the admin, multiple users have rightly admonished the Admin, but a clarification request won't clarify that the admin was incivil and that he and all admins should not repeat such incivility. If this committee wants to own the admonishment or defer to a lower level of dispute resolution, like an RfC/U or RfC on BLP discretionary warning, well and good, but as it has already essentially done the later, then what more is there to do.
I wasn't overly concerned with the decline.
Neither you, Simon, nor the fifty thousand, nor the Romans, nor the Jews, nor Judas, nor the twelve, nor the priests, nor the scribes, nor doomed Jerusalem itself understand what power is, understand what glory is, understand at all.Tim Rice, Jesus Christ Superstar lyric.
The simple fact of the matter is that, following Kevin's misjudgement, and more so the bobbing and weaving non-apology apologies which followed, he has painted a huge wiki-target on his back, and if he ever tried to pull another stunt like that again, the reaction from the community would be rapid and extreme, regardless of what the committee did or failed to do.
And I had decided to sit this one out -- until I saw the first arb comment.
Give the committee Scope and responsibilities explicitly states it's the committee's duty to "To resolve matters unsuitable for public discussion for privacy, legal, or similar reasons." (emphasis mine), Carcharoth's explanation "there was no desire to end up with formal proceedings taking place arising from the mishandling of a sensitive topic." is inadequate. You could have easily directed Kevin and all editors wishing to submit evidence to do by email and hold discussion off-wiki. Concurrent with your claim of "admonishment in all but name" is an arbcom clerk arguing [33] 'it's important to announce motions ... and cases being closed as they change or introduce arbitration policy or restrictions on editors or pages. However declined cases and requests for clarification and amendment don't. ' (emphasis mine). Being listed at Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee#Members isn't like being listed at Wikipedia:Editing Restrictions "following discussion at a community noticeboard." Ya'll volunteered and campaigned for this -- so do your job already. NE Ent 14:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to thank Harry Mitchell for raising this clarification. I was appalled by the Committee's handling of the request and see that there are unresolved issues which it is the Committee's, as well as the community's, best interests to handle. These include:
@ Carcharoth: I was very disappointed that you would instruct archiving of the Kevin and FPaS requests, both raised important questions which you chose to dodge. You wrote that "we all have better things to be doing"; I disagree. ArbCom should not view misuse of its own procedures to threaten an editor and then refusal to really engage with what he had done wrong and to offer a sincere apology by Kevin as unworthy of its attention. As for "admonishment in all but name", look at the subsequent comments by Kevin (he has not archived them, you'll have to look in his user page history)I do mean "not" here, Kevin has a selective approach to archiving, which is allowed under policy but leaves an archive that is incomplete and potentially misleading. Adding this comment following this discussion EdChem ( talk) 00:20, 1 March 2014 (UTC) and the 'apology' he quoted from another user. I do agree though that declining a case "means things are obvious enough already that no further action is needed", but I suspect we disagree about what is obvious. To me, it is that this ArbCom is unwilling to say that Eric was mistreated and that Kevin deserves sanction. Worse, it says that poor behavior from administrators will continue to be tolerated. If you want the things that are obvious to be different, then the community will need to see actions, not words.
@ Roger Davies: I am encouraged by your comments, they remind me a little of the election platform which persuaded me to vote for you. The two aspects that you would seek to address in a motion certainly do need to be addressed, and beyond that if possible.
@ Salvio giuliano: Your comment at the case request indicated that Kevin's actions were problematic, and so you voted to decline a case, a decline that allowed Carcharoth to direct the request be archived. Your reasoning was supported by other arbitrators to take no action. If you really wanted a motion, you needed to act as Seraphimblade did in stating a motion was needed prior to decline and archiving. You could have objected during the four hours after Carcharoth issued the instruction (assuming you were active in that period). A motion now is better than nothing, but only arbitrators could propose a motion and none did; it certainly appears that there was a view that comments are enough, and they are not.
@ AGK: You state that the reasoning at the case request from some arbitrators was unsound. Your reasoning that acting now might be capricious is equally unsound, though Kevin might see it that way. It would, in fact, be good for the Committee to openly declare that they had made an error in judgement and were acting to correct it. I would also prefer that you feel equally appalled by the poor actions of Kevin both in invoking special BLP protections and then accusing Eric of grave dancing as you are by your colleagues implications of your own insensitivity towards the deceased.
@ Newyorkbrad: as probably the most respected arbitrator and one with a reputation for sensitivity towards issues, I was shocked and disappointed by your vote to decline the case. Your reasoning was unsound, there was much that the Committee could have done that would have been positive, and the focus on the request name was legalistic. Yes, the name was non-neutral, but was that really the only issue you saw as warranting comment? Before you comment here, please, stop and think carefully about what Kevin did to Eric and what that means for Kevin's judgement, for Eric, and for everyone watching who has taken a view following the events. Did Kevin's use of special BLP meet the Committee's expectations? Were his gravedancing comments and subsequent refusal to respond adequately consistent with expectations of administrator behavior? What does the Committee doing nothing signal to the community? How will declaring that there is secret evidence available only to ArbCom, coupled with ArbCom saying nothing and doing nothing, be seen? Does the project need more editors who see administrators acting as a privileged and unaccountable class? Yes, my questions reflect my view and sure, there are others worth asking. Please, answer some of them.
Just to conclude: I have a mental health condition. At times, my ability to edit is not good which is one reason for taking breaks. I disagree with Eric that I should stay away from Wikipedia and I think the community can do much better in supporting editors who have difficulties. That said, making a disclosure is also difficult as it reveals a weakness that can be exploited. Also, I agree with Eric that Wikipedia is not the place to get medical help; for that, I go to medical professionals. I can contribute here at times I cannot handle working full-time, and I do think Wikipedia is important. I am far far more likely to leave over poor treatment by administrators and ArbCom refusing to act in such cases than I am over robust (and even Eric's brand of sometimes over-the-top) discussion / debate. I am certain that I am not alone. ArbCom have mishandled the FPaS, Philippe, and now the Kevin Gorman case requests. You need to do better. You can start by fixing one mistake and prove that administrator mistreatment of editors is unacceptable – no matter who the editor is – and that the Committee will not reflexively support administrators invoking its procedures in unjustified (and worse, in unjustifiable) ways. EdChem ( talk) 03:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I can't believe the dodgy and manipulative way you handle things, Kevin, including your pat "no good will come from this" when you delete editors' valid concerns as a way to sweep away criticism and maintain your false posture of being "right". The fact that you have chosen to bicker with me dishonestly over irrelevancies when you have many more serious issues to deal with in this important RFAR shows a continued thin-skinned brittleness and lack of judgement on your part that demonstrates your unsuitability to hold the title of admin.
I would like to know from User:Cullen328 if he is one of the admins who adivsed you that spurred you to take action at Jimbo's Talk against Eric Corbett, since Cullen was both quick to defend you both at Jimbo's Talk and at Eric's Talk, and quick to get involved with me (chiding me to "move on" and "work on improving the encyclopedia" and "What is accomplished by continuing to question Kevin on this?") when attempting to followup with you at your Talk after the previous RFAR had been closed. Ihardlythinkso ( talk) 07:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
My piece I said here. I understand Kevin has now apologised but it was such a prolonged and destructive (and entirely avoidable) train-wreck of an interaction on his part that at minimum I think there has to be an official admonishment (sorry Kevin, but the whole episode really sucked). If this place acts on precedents etc. then there needs to be some sort of consistency and line drawn in the sand. Salvo or AGK, or whoever, just make a motion already. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 09:30, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Between Kevin and Arbcom. the processes for regulating behaviour and adhering to policy have been brought into disrepute. Some clear, simple and definitive action is required to begin to restore confidence. In particular this applies to Arbcom 2014 who's multiple decisions last week in dealing dismissively with unacceptable behaviour by Admins. sets a worrying trend.
Leaving aside the added complexity of the quoted BLP special enforcement, Kevin's first and most serious lapse of judgement and a question he is still yet to answer, is why he thought Eric's comment in the original discussion was the appropriate target for Admin. action. It was the original post by an anonymous editor that violated WP:BDP. BDP affords BLP style protection where "contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide.." That thread on the founder's page infringed BDP in that the person referred to was readily identifiable from immediately available resources here on WP and subsequently on the wider www. It takes less than 2 minutes and the attempt to disguise the identity of the deceased using a pseudonym was fatuous. Blaming Eric for a serious BLP/BDP violation while ignoring the same clear behaviour by the IP made no sense then and despite numerous attempts to justify it, will never make any sense. The fact that in some people's view Eric walks around with a large target on his back in no way justifies the action pursued by Kevin, and allegedly supported by other Admins and Arbcom. members off-wiki.
The allegations of tacit support by other functionaries must also be explained. Frankly it looks like a simple attempt to deflect blame and have not been satisfactorily explained despite repeated assurances by Kevin that he would do so.
Finally, the case request was declined was because there was no desire to end up with formal proceedings taking place arising from the mishandling of a sensitive topic.
is just plain unacceptable, as is Decline expeditiously. Every aspect of this situation is unfortunate, but it is undesirable to publicize it further, and there is little value we can add.
Arbcom was not (re-)elected to abrogate responsibility because matters are "sensitive" and "unfortunate" and while some matters might be "undesirable to publicize further", you need to be careful that you are not open to the accusation of just brushing unpalatable matters under the carpet.
Leaky
Caldron 11:07, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Alanscottwalker:. Well I have no idea what a "category" error is and I have made no bad faith accusations. I have pointed out that the original post enabled the family and friends of the unnamed victim to be readily identified, an action which could lead to implications for them and therefore a breach of the WP:BDP extension to WP:BLP. The sort of implication I'm thinking of is unwanted attention, possible contact from the media, etc. Unless they had provided express consent for that discussion to take place on the founder's page they might have every reason to distressed. I would be. To be clear, our words here do not need to express hostility to cause an adverse implication on close friends and family. Simply raising the subject, even in an indirect fashion, may cause distress if (a) the subject is identifiable and (b) the subject matter contains details that refer to events that the friends and family would prefer not to be discussed here. We don't know, we must assume that distress would be caused. Maybe why Eric was appalled by it? Leaky Caldron 15:31, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
@Carcharoth. Let's look at the comments of the arbs who voted to decline the case.
You inform us that it should be obvious to anyone reading those comments that Kevin will be desysopped if he pulls a stunt like that again. What! Whatever you're drinking, I want one.
The message you sent to the community, and especially to the admins, was not that Kevin would be desyssoped; it was this: We reaffirm that you are free to make personal attacks on editors and to subsequently double-down on those attacks. In the extremely unlikely event that you are brought to account for such an attack, we might say that it was unfortunate, we might make hilarious jokes about trout-slapping, but under no circumstances will take any action against you, nor make any official, on-record criticism of your attack.
And all this stuff about Kevin being a hapless newbie admin is nonsense. He picked a fight against Eric Corbett on Jimbo's talk page. He knew exactly what he was doing. In fact, given his fantastic interpretation of BLP, it's difficult not to believe that he thought he'd found a loophole which would allow him to deal once and for all with the editor he habitually refers to as Malleus, and was looking for an opportunity to exploit it.
188.30.20.92 ( talk) 14:06, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
The BLP policy is quite explicit about whether it should apply to the recently deceased:
Anyone born within the past 115 years is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death. Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who are confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death - six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. In the absence of confirmation of death, anyone born more than 115 years ago is presumed dead unless listed at oldest people.
Now, it is true that WP:BLPBAN is a rather useless policy. Regardless if the remedy is repealed or not, I would, in some circumstances, be OK with blocking and wheel warring with another administrator who overturned my action with regards to a biography of a living person. But if we are going to have it, there is no good reason to use this one hard case to make a bad divergent exception from the status quo. Review the whole policy, yes, but don't make this piecemeal change. NW ( Talk) 23:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I think 188.30.20.92 inadvertently hit on Kevin's biggest mistake. He ended up in a fight with Eric. That never ends well because of the number of enablers and hangers-on Eric has. As Roger's motion on the case page shows, even several members of Arbcom will act to enable Eric's behaviour and placate him any time he runs off in a huff. Reso lute 20:41, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I think that Gorilla Warfare's comment at 01:26, 24 February 2014, about declining the case, gets it exactly right. I feel like some of you on the Committee are letting yourselves second-guess yourselves too much. It sounds like you are getting so wrapped up in parsing the boundary between BLP and BDP that you are losing sight of the fact that wanting to see a dead editor spoken of with sensitivity is not exactly a high crime. I'm not defending everything that Kevin did, please understand, but as cases of administrative overstep go, this is a borderline one. Unfortunately for Kevin, his minor oversteps stepped into the buzzsaw of those who are looking for an administrator to make an example of. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Regarding Motion #3 - shouldn't any re-evaluation of WP:BLPBAN come from the community, and not ArbCom, or have I misunderstood the extent of the committee's remit? BMK ( talk) 06:22, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I'd noted this many days ago, but refrained from bringing it up 'cause no one likes a wikilawyer. But since ya'll seem to be in wikilawyer modality, here's a motion:
"The BLPBAN warning by Kevin doesn't count because he didn't RTFM and log it on WP:Editing Restrictions, it just doesn't count, it didn't happen, we're done with this morass, and we hope to hell March is kinder month to Arbcom '14" NE Ent 12:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Motion 2, section i is fatally flawed. If BLPBAN only applies to mainspace, then articles in user space, at WP:AFC or other quazi-article locations would be wide open. Articles/pages outside of mainspace are implied to be covered by BLPBAN as it is worded, but this motion would remove that protection by setting a clear precedent that removes BLP protection for those pages. I encourage the Arbs to strike their support and instead oppose Motion 2 based on this flaw. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:21, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I rarely involve myself in arbitration matters but I'll make an exception here. I oppose Motion 2 for reasons similar to those of Roger Davies. BLP policies should also apply on talk pages and anywhere else on the Wiki although perhaps with less rigor than they do in article space so that there is room for some informal discussion among editors relevant to article content and people relevant to Wikipedia who are living persons. I support Motion 3 and am leaning oppose on Motion 1. -- Pine ✉ 07:38, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
A couple of arbitrators deployed a shocking piece of casuistry which wormed its way into the rationale for a number of other decline votes: that we should not act due to the nature of the incident giving rise to the dispute. The case could have been easily handled without further exposing the original incident. Moreover, these arbitrators were implying, deliberately or unthinkingly, that the rest of us who would have acted on the request demonstrated a lack of respect for the victim. This appalled me. Those particular arbitrators know who they are, so I will merely say that this line of the committee's thinking at the RFAR was completely unsound. The other major line of thinking was that Kevin's action was a one-off mistake unlikely to be repeated. This ignores the danger posed to the project when an administrator illegitimately claims special enforcement protection for a wrong action. The committee cannot overlook such a breach of policy, even if the administrator himself promises it was a one-off mistake.
These were the two major lines of thinking in last week's RFAR; both appear unsound, and ideally the decision would be overturned. However, the moment for action may now have passed, and the good we could do may be outweighed by the drama/confusion overturning the decision to decline might generate. Also, if we overturn last week's decision, Kevin Gorman could accuse us of acting capriciously (with some justification). As none of this changes the fact that real damage could be done to the project if last week's decision stands, I am nonetheless willing to open a case. AGK [•] 00:08, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree that WP:BLPBAN could use updating, but if we are updating it to standard DS, what's the area of conflict? All BLPs? I'd welcome comments on whether BLPBAN should be updated and what the updated version should be.
I still think that a case is unnecessary, and I assume that, based on Roger's comment above and the original votes in the case request, that a majority of the committee not recused in this matter is still of this opinion. Under these circumstances, I think the best way forward is simply for us to propose and vote on the necessary motions in this request. T. Canens ( talk) 02:04, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators, not counting 4 recused. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Further to the current Request for Clarification, the committee notes that:
By way of clarification:
The provisions of
WP:BLPBAN will be urgently reviewed by the Arbitration Committee and where necessary updated.
By way of clarification, the formal warning issued by Kevin Gorman was out of process and therefore has no effect. The provisions of WP:BLPBAN will be reviewed by the Arbitration Committee and where necessary updated.
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 70 | ← | Archive 72 | Archive 73 | Archive 74 | Archive 75 | Archive 76 | → | Archive 80 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Darkness Shines ( talk) at 20:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Sandstein has banned me from reverting on any article relating to climate change. Even if the edit is an obvious violation of BLP. His rationale for this sanction was to prevent further disruption, however as there was no further disruption from me then this sanction is not preventative. BLP policy is that "Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion" This sanction is a violation of our policy on BLP. Yes I edit warred, yes I was wrong, but banning an editor from removing blatant violations of BLP is ridiculous. A 1RR restriction would make more sense, if I were reverted by an editor then I would go to the article talk page to make a case.
I suppose I have to point out that Kaj Taj Mahal is a SPA whose sole purpose on Wikipedia is to denigrate the BLP James Delingpole. Edits such as writing having no scientific or intellectual qualifications himself to make this accusation. Or calling him a mental-midget. Or violating NPOV and LABEL by adding a section title Anthropogenic climate change denial The sanction imposed on myself means the first diff I presented here could not be removed by me, which is a ridiculous state of affairs. Darkness Shines ( talk) 01:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: The article protection was removed before I was sanctioned, and there were no reverts by myself on it. Please explain where this "continuing disruption" was? Darkness Shines ( talk) 10:06, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Sandstein: Sandstein, please read what I have written. I said that if I am reverted then off to the talk page I go, how exactly could I do 1RR a day under that restriction? Darkness Shines ( talk) 10:12, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies:, @ Sandstein:, @ Salvio giuliano:. At 13:28, 15 January 2014 editor IHaveAMastersDegree, added this to a BLP "Delingpole's conjecture became the basis for one of the most well-known global warming conspiracy thoeries and has been cited as an example of conspiracy theories in science that "target specific research can have serious consequences for public health and environmental policies"" [3], the source does not mention Delingpole, I rasied this at 13:41, 15 January 2014 It was finally removed at 16:56, 15 January 2014, so that BLP violation sat in the article for an hour and a half, because had I removed that content it would be deemed a revert and I would be blocked. And if the next time the BLP vio is worse? Does it sit in an article for hours in the hope someone will come along to remove it? Darkness Shines ( talk) 17:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
For three days this BLP violation has sat in an article. I am unable to remove it and am hoping someone will see my post on the talk page, thing is, Delingpole did not write the blog post the authors of that paper are referring to, it was a guest post. Darkness Shines ( talk) 22:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
@
Nomoskedasticity: Say what? Every BLP violation I have pointed out has been agreed with by other editors that they were BLP violations. The diffs I presented prove the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Darkness Shines (
talk) 13:39, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Nomoskedasticity, where have I said those violations were "outrageous name-calling and vandalism" I am pointing out obvious BLP violations, which I cannot rectify because of this sanction, are you really OK with BLP vios sitting in articles for days at a time? Darkness Shines ( talk) 16:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Please note that DarknessShines appealed his restriction to WP:AE this past week, where his appeal was reviewed and declined unanimously by 5 admins. Here's a link to the appeal, as I don't see one provided above. MastCell Talk 22:13, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
While admins are allowed to extend editing restrictions to include a ban on removing BLP violations and vandalism, it is excessive for Sandstein to have both removed the exemption and subjected DS to a 0RR. A block for edit-warring given the contentious nature of the BLP claim, simply removing the exemption, or even a 1RR with no exemption for removing BLP violations and vandalism would have all been better geared towards addressing the cause of the problem without needlessly barring constructive editing in the topic area. Going straight to a 0RR with no exemptions is unduly severe.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
His behaviour at Talk:James Delingpole was rather disheartening, and precludes me from supporting any relaxation of sanctions. -- Kaj Taj Mahal ( talk) 00:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Please note the talk page discussions on "section titles" at that page [4] and at the corresponding BLP/N discussion [5] wherein I fear that some of the disputants complaining most loudly about DS seem to evince essentially the same behaviour as they dislike in him. I suggest that the equivalent sanction actually be extended to each of those editors de novo by motion as a result in order to calm down what appears to be a relatively toxic atmosphere in that corner of the Wiki-world. My sole connection here is suggesting a neutral and clear section title, by the way. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 00:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I recommend that this appeal is declined, for the reasons it was declined at WP:AE. I refer to my comments there. This additional appeal is forum shopping.
I did not impose a one-revert restriction, as now suggested by the appellant, because such a restriction would be insufficiently preventative. Even at the rate of one revert per day, edit wars can still be carried out. Especially in the case of particularly argumentative and wiki-litigious editors, I prefer imposing sanctions that are as simple as possible and contain as few loopholes, exceptions and caveats as possible.
The conduct of Kaj Taj Mahal has been the subject of a separate, now-closed AE request, and does not concern this appeal. Sandstein 09:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: Darkness Shines has already shown that he can't exercise the sort of judgment your proposal would require (which is why the sanction Sandstein imposed didn't give him room for it). Moreover it's not necessary: if Mr Shines perceives an egregious BLP violation, he can bring it to the attention of other editors and it will be dealt with in short order. This has already worked: [6], followed by [7]. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 08:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by MarshalN20 | Talk at 02:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Original Request (too long!)
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This request for the Argentine History case is primarily a clarification petition, but may end up with additional amendments to the case depending on how the solution to the problem can be achieved optimally (I will provide an amendment suggestion).
Thanks in advance for the help. Please take my proposals for solution as recommendations (not demands). Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 02:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
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Response to Roger
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---Response to Roger--- Thanks Roger. Yes, here are the direct quotes...
Notes:
Neotarf and others get away with this kind of mudslinging by claiming that their "general idea of the topic" is correct based on the Arbitration Committee's decision. A clarification on the ruling, perhaps directly addressing this "Black Legend", would be helpful (so that any further aspersion casting can be dealt with at AN/I). Alternatively, a remedy for "casting aspersions" could be amended into the case in order for any further aspersion casting can be reviewed at the Arbitration Enforcement page (which is more focused on arbitration-related matters than AN/I). If none of my recommendations are adequate, I would also appreciate suggestions on how to handle this matter (for instance, should I simply take this directly to AN/I the next time it happens?). It's truly bothersome to keep having my reputation besmirched throughout Wikipedia. The IBAN was certainly a great help in stopping the source, but the false accusations continue being spread by users with apparent ties to the involved parties. Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 16:21, 18 January 2014 (UTC) |
Response to Astynax
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---Response to Roger---
Note: I suppose that another part of the question here is the distinction between the "evidence phase" and the "final decision". Astynax below assures that what was placed in the "evidence phase" can be used in the Arbitration Committee's voice. I find this view strange, particularly as my understanding is that the "evidence phase" is where parties (involved and peripheral) could submit their position on the subject, whereas the "final decision" is what the Arbitration Committee ultimately had to say about the matter. Some kind of clarification is clearly needed either for me, for the others, or for everyone.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 07:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC) |
Penultimate Request (also long)
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Clarification Questions:
These are all my clarification questions. Salvio was kind enough to provide his response to them ( [14]):
Astynax, all I am asking is that you (and your friends) please stop casting aspersions about me. Simply drop the stick.
Hence, I believe that the only solutions here are:
Yes, I know that this clarification request is unusual. However, I think the statements made by Astynax & The_ed17, along with my evidence from Neotarf, are good examples of the why the unusual explanation is necessary. Best wishes.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 06:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC) |
Per the recommendations of Salvio and ES&L, I request that my clarification request please be withdrawn.
I apologize for the continuing drama, but you can follow the story at AN/I (
[18]). Assuming my WrestleMania example to be correct, I call dibs on Hulk Hogan.
Again, sorry everyone.
Best wishes.--
MarshalN20 |
Talk 16:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
MarshalN20 is mistaken that reliable, mainstream sources were not produced linking Nacionalismos and its apologists to Fascism during the arbitration case during the Evidence phase. The Signpost article thus seems to be on solid footing, and there are certainly other mainstream historians that could be cited in support of equating Nacionalismo and quasi-historical Nacionalismos accounts with Fascism. MarshalN20 joined Cambalachero/MBelgrano in defending edits based upon those sources. I am unsure what motivated MarshalN20 to lodge yet another request regarding this case, what this complaint has to do with his block, or what he is asking be clarified. If he has a complaint against the behavior of Neotarf, who did not participate in the arbcom case, surely this is not the place to lodge it. • Astynax talk 00:03, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
+1. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:18, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I’m not sure why I am being named as a party here. I have never edited in this topic area or with this group of editors.
The Signpost Arbitration Report has included the same basic synopsis of the Argentine History case since the April 1st, 2013 issue, over nine months ago. Marshal was not named in any of these reports. The only time this user was named in an Arbitration Report with regards to this case was in the June 26, 2013 report, when the case was closed and the findings passed unanimously by the committee were quoted verbatim.
Marshal has never expressed any concerns about the reports on the talk pages, or by contacting me via my talk page or by email. He did however post a comment here after he was mentioned in connection with one of his requests regarding his Latin American history topic ban. At that time I declined to expand on the report, as I don’t consider these requests to be very interesting to a general audience, plus it's a lot of work, but I invited him to add his reflections. He did not.
Marshal has also misquoted me: e.g. when he quotes this: "They were ganging up to bully him." the actual quote is "WHO CLAIMED they were ganging up to bully him." (emphasis mine)
No one has accused Marshal of being a “fascist” (small “f”). The reference to Fascism (capital “F”) refers to sources associated with the Revisionismo movement of the 1930s. My comments at WikiProject Editor Retention were to express surprise after an editor was sanctioned by AE after posting at yet another one of Marshal’s topic ban review requests.
Query: If Marshal is topic banned, how is he posting comments at the Signpost and at Clarification Requests?
Regards, — Neotarf ( talk) 08:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
This is ridiculous to be here: Marshal was advised to take others' behaviour to ANI, and that's that. Period. That said, Asyntax has spent every single one of his posts here proving Marshal to be right. Asyntax' comments are 110 degrees off of what the findings of fact were, and is ascribing very different words and meanings to ArbCom's findings. This clearly violates WP:NPA (see WP:WIAPA), and refuses to remove them even when appropriately notified of their error. However, nobody on this board will block for it, and Marshal knows it. So Marshal, close this well-intentioned, but poorly thought-out filing (after all, you WERE told the right locale), and use diff's to the links as part of your proof. Someone is quite clearly trying to drive you away from specific articles and casting false aspersions. Editors are not permitted to put words in ArbCom's mouths that were not there to begin with in order to invalidate your edits ES &L 10:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:27, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Case affected : Infoboxes arbitration case ( t) ( ev / t) ( w / t) ( pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
Information about amendment request
As already stated while the case was open, this puts Andy in the position not being able to add infoboxes to articles which he creates. A proposal to change that, Include infoboxes in new articles which they create, was then supported by ColonelHenry, Johnbod, Crisco 1492, Montanabw, improved wording requested by Philosopher, Mackensen and SchroCat. The proposal was opposed by Giano and Folantin, and was discussed.
Today we saw one of Andy's articles as lead DYK on the Main page: Magistrate of Brussels. I ask to add a clause that ends the restriction on his newly created articles: he is in no conflict with any other user, responsible for the content of an article he creates, and is not in conflict with the interests of Wikipedia adding an infobox for a painting, a street or a military person. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:27, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
{{Infobox Bach composition/sandbox | title = {{lang|de|Ich muss weg}} | bwv = 999 | type = [[List of Bach cantatas|Secular cantata]] | image = Road Runner decal 2 Detail.jpg | image_size = 160px }}
I wasn't aware of Gerda's plans to make this request, but I thank her for it and endorse it (I had intended to make such a request at a later date). I wish to include infoboxes in articles I create, and there appears to be no cogent reason why I should not. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
If the restriction was to be removed from articles he recently created (which should be classified both by (a) article age and (b) number of edits by other editors), then I would also recommend that he be allowed to defend his reasoning to include said infoboxes at the appropriate places. Without this, editors could unilaterally remove boxes from Andy's recently-created articles and he would not be able to do a thing about it. I doubt it will come up often, but I at this point don't see harm also granting him this capability. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 00:10, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: I like your ideas, save for the first one - I would amend it so that if specific article(s) have/has few or no other contributors, he would be given a bit more leeway with the infoboxes in such article(s). Call it the someone's got to keep an eye on it clause. I also would support a revision count instead or in addition to the article age (since creation) for definition of such articles.- Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 03:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
If the committee is going to allow an exemption for articles Andy has recently created, please could they define what they mean by "recently". Doing so would remove the potential for much argument that could very easily lead to more work at AE and/or another amendment/clarification request down the line. I also endorse Penwhales's comments about discussion.
As your starter for 10, how about:
Hopefully something like that should be acceptable to all parties and leave no significant grey areas. Thryduulf ( talk) 02:20, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
@ Folantin: if you want to accuse Andy of sockpuppetry you should make a formal presentation of the evidence at WP:SPI. If you don't, you should withdrawn the insinuations you've made here. Thryduulf ( talk) 01:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
@ NE Ent and EatsShootsAndLeaves: I agree absolutely about the disservice WP:OWN does to the encyclopaedia. However, if you read the case pages you will see that last year's committee approved principles and findings of fact that endorsed WP:OWNership of articles by those opposed to infoboxes, despite repeated comments by myself and others ( RexxS and Gerda Arendt included) on the talk pages about how bad this would be. So officially now any author can legitimately object to an infobox on "their" article on the grounds of "I don't like it". Thryduulf ( talk) 13:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Under such conditions, and given that the subject has consistently regarded "authorial choice" in excluding a box from an article one creates as "ownership"....why is this request here? Nikkimaria ( talk) 04:47, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Since late September 2013 (i.e. just after the ArbCom sanctions passed), a Birmingham IP 80.249.48.109 ( talk · contribs) has taken a sudden interest in infoboxes. Funnily enough, this has tended to occur around the same time Andy Mabbett has contributed to many of the same articles.-- Folantin ( talk) 11:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is socking, meat puppetry or something else, but there are more than enough WP:DUCK grounds for suspicion here. According to Nikkimaria,several of these IPs have been behaving in the same way [19] [20] [21]. All Birmingham educational addresses. According to his own Wikipedia user page, Andy Mabbett lives in Birmingham and works in education.
Examples: The only users to edit the Birmingham Union workhouse article are Pigsonthewing and an anonymous infobox-adding IP: [22]. Almost exactly the same thing happens with Sir Richard Ranulph FitzHerbert, 9th Baronet [23]: the only edit the IP makes is to add an infobox, while all other edits to the article (barring a minor fix) are by Andy Mabbett. On Denville Hall, the only edit [24] an anonymous IP makes to the page is to add an infobox right among a bunch of edits by Pigsonthewing [25]. An IP manages to produce a fully formatted infobox in its sixth ever edit to Wikipedia [26], again right in the middle of a bunch of Andy Mabbett's contributions to the same article.
This is well beyond coincidence. -- Folantin ( talk) 09:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Update I've now gone ahead and asked for an SPI per Arbitrator Beeblebrox's request. The evidence is here [28]. -- Folantin ( talk) 14:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
It is exactly this sort of adversity by innuendo that make editors like Folantin so poisonous to the collaborative environment we should be striving to create on Wikipedia. There are 1 million people in Birmingham city and 2 million people in the surrounding urban area, including both Andy and myself. I live as close to the city centre as Andy does and have far more links with education than he does now, or ever had. Why not accuse me of being the IPs? A look at the geolocation for the IPs that Folantin lists shows that they are mainly school addresses. Here's the homepage for Birmingham Grid for Learning: http://www.bgfl.org/ - see for yourself that it's part of the National Grid for Learning (which connects schools to the internet) and you can quickly click through from the homepage to the directory of schools, http://services.bgfl.org/cfpages/schools/default.cfm where you'll find that Birmingham has hundreds of schools connected to BGfL. Is Folantin now claiming that Andy is getting into schools and using their computers to edit Wikipedia pages? I'm afraid that it's far more likely that there are many Wikipedia editors in Birmingham schools who may add infoboxes, considering the majority of articles on the English Wikipedia have one (at least 2.4 million out of 4.4 million). I suppose the next step will be Folantin blaming Andy for all of those as well? -- RexxS ( talk) 14:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
"a core group of editors will have worked to build the article up to its present state, and will revert edits that they find detrimental in order, they believe, to preserve the quality of the encyclopedia. Such reversion does not necessarily constitute ownership ..."they are completely blind to the qualification
"...and will normally be supported by an explanatory edit summary referring to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, previous reviews and discussions, or specific grammar or prose problems introduced by the edit."The ArbCom has given carte blanche to owners of articles to blindly revert good-faith edits, without even a pretence of explanation beyond "we say so". Until that behaviour is recognised and tackled, conflict will ensue and we'll lose good contributors until we're only left with the article owners. Yes, you can reduce "disruption" by banning one entire side of a content dispute, but taking sides in that manner will not be ultimately conducive to the development of a multimedia, online encyclopedia that anyone is supposed to be able to edit. -- RexxS ( talk) 12:23, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
{{Infobox bradjoke |name = Brad |diff = [//en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FClarification_and_Amendment&diff=590705223&oldid=590704935] |context= arbcom amendment request |self-reference = yes |type = irony, dramatic; wry; sardonic |based in truth=yes |funny = disputed }}
Please see also Finding on Ownership and stewardship. NE Ent 00:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
For the life of me, I cannot understand what the kerfluffle is. All articles should have infoboxes. Really. They're a quick, immediately visible summary of the subject. We don't get to determine whether it has one or not based on who created it, or has the most edits - that would be WP:OWN. This is one thing NOT WORTH FIGHTING ABOUT ES &L 09:59, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I've stayed out of this until now, but I must strenuously object to the proposal below to tighten Gerda's restrictions. She came here in good faith to ask that Andy be allowed the same level of activity that she currently enjoys, and now ArbCom wants to slap her down for simply asking? What an absurd result this is! This is not an "obsession," onthe part of Gerda, it is a legitimate question being raised. Many of us have a "STF?" reaction to the anti-infobox "obsession" of a few very strongly-opposed editors of classical music articles. It was their very harsh and bullying manner that led to the case that boomeranged and created this whole mess. Given that well over half of all wikipedia articles - and undoubtably, an even higher percentage of those that are B-Class and higher - currently include an infobox, this idea to sanction Gerda for just asking a restriction on another user to be softened is one of the most ill-conceived notions I've seen! Within many projects the infobox is standard (with assorted "drahmahz" over content, but not existence). I urge the members below to reconsider their actions. Montanabw (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
@ESL, RexxS, NE Ent, I agree 100%. Montanabw (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2014 (UTC) @ Worm That Turned, I have to admit shock that you have even proposed this draconian sanction. Until this, I have had considerable respect for you, but I am dumbfounded that you think that running off a top notch contributor from an area of interest will solve the infobox wars. Montanabw (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
On a wider point, what those who participated in the infobox case should be doing is preparing the ground for a discussion to help address ways to include the data contained in infoboxes in ways that do not force articles to have infoboxes, and to address the wider question of why when 'boxes' in general were first created, infoboxes gravitated to the top right-hand corner, and other boxes (e.g. navboxes and succession boxes) gravitated to the bottom of articles (series boxes ended up in-between). If categories were displayed at the top of articles, they would get argued over a lot more. It is the location of infoboxes in 'prime territory' right up front that causes much of the dissension IMO. Find some way of resolving that tension and people might argue less over them. Also tackle the issue of 'narrow' vs 'broad' infoboxes. But all these issues can only be addressed if the wider community actually has those discussions. Carcharoth ( talk) 01:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
and are in the process of removing another: no, the three people you pinged all opposed motion two, a motion which would have removed Gerda Arendt ( talk · contribs) from the discussion entirely. L Faraone 20:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0–1 | 7 |
2–3 | 6 |
4–5 | 5 |
For reference, the relevant remedy relating to Pigsonthewing ( talk · contribs) is:
1.1) Pigsonthewing is indefinitely banned from adding, or discussing the addition or removal of, infoboxes.
Proposed:
In the Infoboxes case, remedy 1.1 is modified with immediate effect to the following text:
to be enacted on the passing of this motion.
Abstentions | Support votes needed for majority |
---|---|
0–1 | 6 |
2–3 | 5 |
4–5 | 4 |
For reference, the relevant remedy relating to Gerda Arendt ( talk · contribs) is:
3.2) Gerda Arendt is indefinitely restricted from: adding or deleting infoboxes; restoring an infobox that has been deleted; or making more than two comments in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article. They may participate in wider policy discussions regarding infoboxes with no restriction, and include infoboxes in new articles which they create.
Proposed:
In the Infoboxes case, remedy 3.2 is vacated with immediate effect and replaced with the following remedy:
to be enacted on the passing of this motion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by RexxS ( talk) at 19:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I am dismayed at finding myself asking once again for clarification of the decision made last September in the Infoboxes case. I am again confronted by Dr. Blofeld taking what I believe to be an utterly inappropriate interpretation of one of your decisions:
It's just everytime we have an article on the main page this "why doesn't it have an infobox" argument breaks out, when all 10 arbitrators have decided it's up to the article writers to decide and they're not compulsory.
I believe this to be entirely inaccurate as I cannot see that the Arbitrators would advance a policy of restricting content decisions to just those editors who self-identify as "the article writers". For comparison, the text of the finding of fact is:
The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article by site policies or guidelines. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.
It is this finding of fact that I wish to see clarified, precisely to identify who were intended by the wording "the editors at each individual article".
Several editors had questioned on the Talk:Hattie Jacques page the absence of an infobox, and Dr. Blofeld is now using his interpretation of your decision to deny new editors any say in the decision concerning infoboxes. His comment was made immediately after that of MrDannyDoodah, who will now be left with the impression that his views cannot carry any weight on that talk page. I have asked Dr. Blofeld to reverse his opinion and make that clear, but he has declined to do so and insists that you would acknowledge his interpretation. Consequently I wish to settle this issue completely by an unambiguous statement from ArbCom on who may take part in a decision to add an infobox to an article. -- RexxS ( talk) 19:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Neither of the article authors want an infobox. Take your infobox Nazism somewhere else? You got away with that by blubbing to me that you didn't want to be blocked. I stepped back from that request as a gesture of goodwill to you and this is how you respond. On this occasion you have falsely stated that ArbCom has "decided it's up to the article writers to decide" on infoboxes. I challenged your assertion on your talk page but you chose to defend your indefensible statement. I have received further insults from you on that same page for taking the time to inform you that I was seeking clarification. You have had plenty of time to correct your blatant falsehood on Talk:Hattie Jacques, but have chosen not to. We are here for a second time because of your actions and solely because of them. You need to learn that when you screw up, you stop blaming everyone else and fix the problem you've caused yourself. -- RexxS ( talk) 19:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
"through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article"when that is the verbatim text of an ArbCom Finding of Fact, and are suggesting that I seek from the community clarification of an ArbCom finding. Well, it's an interesting precedent to set and I'm astonished that you're comfortable with that course. It does however cast some light on the pure folly of basing an ArbCom decision on a Finding of Fact that even ArbCom doesn't understand. -- RexxS ( talk) 16:44, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Rexx has once again misinterpreted me and is looking for little more than support and to try to prove me wrong by bringing this here and wasting your time. I'm not mistaken in my interpretation, I believe the arbitrators have stated that consensus is to be reached by anybody interested in the article who may turn up at the talk page and want to discuss infoboxes, not just among those who've written the article. My message on the talk page about article writers deciding was how he mistook what I meant I think. Potentially several hundred people could comment on having an infobox issue to come to a true consensus, but my point in saying what I said was that in practice the decision to use an infobox really is typically and generally decided by discussion and consensus between a small group people who have written the article in question provided that nobody objects to it and I'm sure the arbitrators here would acknowledge this. However, should anybody turn up and make an issue of an infobox then I believe what was agreed here is that the editors who made the original agreement not to use an infobox must be open to new input and strive to gain a new consensus. It isn't practical to request dozens or even hundreds of editors to comment on one infobox in every article. The three of us as normal came to the decision not to use an infobox in Hattie Jacques, that was a consensus, just not wider consensus which seems is now needed. But this process every time one of our articles hits TFA has become disruptive and disrespectful to editors who bother to promote articles and have to deal with controversy over them. It's reached the point that we're being put off wanting to promote articles to FA and dreading the day a article hits the main page because it's inevitable that we'll again have to argue over them for hours. That's not right.
If anything I would ask the arb to look into a new clause which prevents editors discussing infobox issues while the article is on the main page and to encourage editors to try to come to a consensus afterwards if people are still concerned about the issue. I approached User talk:Floquenbeam to ask whether this was practical or not. Above all, arbitrators you decided that infoboxes are not compulsory, but in practice the way discussions end up, they end up eventually being forced and passed off as if they are indeed essential. I think this needs a revision and reassessment as, consensus or no consensus, they're treated as compulsory by editors who turn up on the talk pages in practice. The problem we're getting is that articles which wouldn't normally attract much attention over infoboxes are becoming war grounds for infobox disputes purely because editors have spotted them on the main page and this is immediately going to counteract any original consensus agreed on by the article writers which would have remained intact if the article wasn't featured and open to the scrutiny of thousands of people on the main page. Unless this case here can progress into something really constructive in terms of how to nip TFA infobox disputes in the bud then I'm afraid Rexx is wasting all of your time asking you to simply clarify as I know that generally you mean all editors have a right to discuss infoboxes, not just article writers, and he's simply misunderstood what I was getting at and has once again jumped the gun in running here. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
@Rexx So if I screwed up, why is it you who is requesting arb to waste their time clarifying everything? You'd simply accept I was so obviously wrong (with what you thought I was trying to say) and move on wouldn't you? Your statement contradicts why you decided to come here. If it was I who screwed up why would you need to come here? You're the one I'm afraid who has taken what I said a little too literally and seriously. It isn't right to bring this here. I'm following the advice of Beeb and Vic on this and am walking away from this as I don't think it's worth my time. If anybody here would like me to respond to a question ping me and I'll respectfully respond, thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanbw The thing is I haven't overreacted or responded madly arguing against "nefarious infobox pushers". I simply quietly said that the arb decided that infoboxes are not compulsory and are to be decided upon by the people who write the articles as they're writing it. Rexx misinterpreted what I said and thought it necessary to come running here which I see an unnecessary and troublesome. If he'd simply accepted my argument and quietly thought "you're wrong" instead of causing a big song and dance about asking me to correct myself and coming here things would still be amicable. Even if he has the best of intentions the frequent infobox discussion everytime an article hits TFA does become wearisome for the contributors, and its time something was resolved to stop it happening every week or two.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:17, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanbw You're right about that and it's what I've said above. In principle it is up to anybody to decide. But take your New Forest pony for instance. I'd imagine that it was your choice and anybody else who contributed to the article to use an infobox based on an understanding of what is typically used for such article and your preference to include one. The notion that the wider community are to decide the infobox issue on each and every article like this really isn't what happens in practice. If I, Schrod, Cass, Tim etc came along on the day of the TFA and started kicking up a fuss that the infobox looks ugly and arguing that it degrades the article as the article writer you'd surely stand your ground and object and argue that there was a consensus between you and whoever else wrote it to include one. You'd be miffed wouldn't you that editors who have absolutely nothing to do with the horses project snicking their nose in and trying to force a "new consensus" and try to prove that more people don't want the infobox than do. You'd surely be even more astounded if you found yourself swiftly in front of the arb over it wouldn't you? I personally have no problems with the infobox of course and don't think that, but I would never dream of coming along on your TFA and causing a fuss over it, even if I detested it. It is disrespectful to the editors who've bothered to write the article and their decision to use/not use an infobox. Obviously technically anybody can comment, but I do think people should be less forceful in their approach and at least be more accepting of what the people who've bothered to write the article and promote it to FA feel on the matter. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Rexx, you keep saying that I "shut down the debate" but I did no such thing. I have no authority to "close" a debate and it wasn't as if what I said came anywhere near resembling it. I simply quietly said that the arb made the decision that infoboxes are not compulsory above all. I didn't say "thou must not ever inquire about the adding of an infobox, never mention it again, this conversation is final" sort of thing did I? That's why I found your demands on my talk page so preposterous. Even if you disagree with what I said in the exact wording, simply ignore it and continue to argue your point. As for me not being an editor in good standing, I'm sure even the people who are on good terms with you are shaking their heads at that one too. You're digging a hole for yourself and I can see you continuing to worry about infoboxes in the future to the point you're going to end up being banned from discussing them. I'm very disappointed in your overreaction over this, you seemed a thoroughly decent and reasonable fella in emails a while back. You've got to take a look at how you yourself reacted. If you'd simply said on the talk page "the arb didn't mean just the article writers and you know that, we have a right to discuss them" I'd not have battered an eyelid and things would still be amicable.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I think the committee should ignore this request, otherwise this situation will go on and on. RexxS comments frequently about infoboxes, as shown in the following very few and selective diffs, none of which come from articles RexxS has edited to my knowledge (I could be wrong!): March 2013, March 2013, May 2013, August 2013, December 2013. Furthermore, in terms of not having to "put up with being called a "troublemaker"" - being called a liar wasn't much fun either, [30]. In my view, everyone who posted to any of the case pages (myself included), should take a long step back and ignore infoboxes for at least six months. There are plenty of other things to do here. Victoria ( tk) 22:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Obviously, there's no need for clarification as the committee already cited current policy Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Use_of_infoboxes and does not make policy, so any new policy for mainpage / FA infoboxes should come from the community -- as requested by the committee in their findings Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Community_discussion_recommended. NE Ent 23:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Another "clarification"? And on something that's not really an issue? This continuance of the infobox thing isn't helping anyone, and I can only support, cheer and echo Victoria's good advice above. I'm now so sick and tired of the infobox nonsense that, with apologies to @ Bencherlite:, I'm not going to put any further articles up for TFA, as they end up being involved in the same old endlessly dreary arguments about the damned boxes: mostly about the general concept of boxes (the one-size-fits-all mantra), rather than whether a specific individual article needs a box. Sadly people seem to be unwilling to make the distinction between the general and the specific, and between the policy-led approach against the "I like them, so we need one" approach. - SchroCat ( talk) 23:12, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanabw: Thankfully the site-wide consensus, as expressed by the MoS, differs from your personal opinion. - SchroCat ( talk) 22:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanabw, There was no "snark" intended, and I'm sorry if you read it as such. I will correct a few errors you may seem to be labouring under, but firstly, could you please drop the overly-emotive language and try and assume at least some good faith? Calling editors whose opinion you disagree with "bullies"
is unlikely to help matters, and neither is describing someone's actions as "Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet behaviour"
, so perhaps we could deal with the issues, rather than drop into name calling? As to the substance of your comments.
"The consensus is hardly "site-wide"As my point related to the MoS, I'm not sure why you think the MoS is not a reflection of the site-wide consensus of all editors? (rather than just "bullies")
"person in good faith adds an infobox, another person throws a conniption fit"I suggest you try reversing it too, just to see the opposing point of view. I've seen an editor accused of vandalism for the good faith removal of an IB that was inserted against a long-standing consensus: the conniption fits are happily shared around all-comers here.
"the debate SHOULD be about design and content, not whether infoboxes exist"Why? The MoS is inherently flexible on the point of use ("The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article"), and reflects the fact that one-size-does-not-fit-all. Like the majority of people who are flexible in relation to IBs, I that sometimes they can be good, sometimes they can be essential. And sometimes they are an abomination. Our policy has flexibility in the approach, which is where the problems can arise—and it's not just about the design and content.
— SchroCat ( talk) 08:37, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
OK, after noting for the record that I have had positive interactions with both RexxS and Blofeld, you are both good editors, and I really wish the two of you would just sit down, have a beer, and bury this hatchet, my thoughts: We're here again because are still anti-AGF behavior going on. If people would just live and let live, the guideline that the people who actually care about INDIVIDUAL articles (or, for that matter, individual SUBJECTS, such as opera or even TFAs) could decide by consensus would work. But, "teh dreaded infoboxen" issue is turning into a damn witchhunt. One person in good faith adds an infobox, another person throws a conniption fit about it and begins to accuse the pro-infoboxer of all sorts of nefarious motives. I have long held the view that any article that is part of a project that has gone to the trouble of creating an infobox really should consider using them as a default for consistency within the subject and the conveyance of needed data available at a glance; back in the Stone Age, my old set of World Book Encyclopedias had a standardized summary format box (predecessor to "teh infoboxen") in most of the major biographies or geography or science articles, and wiki is, at root, an encyclopedia. This issue is (in my view) mostly a graphic design element (though I get the metadata argument and think metadata is useful, though I know squat about programming it to happen), just like the wikipedia logo that's on every page on wiki. Not everyone is going to like every element, but the debate SHOULD be about design and content, not whether infoboxes exist. That train left a long time ago -- well over half of all wikipedia articles have infoboxes, an overwhelming majority in the sciences, and especially FA and GA-class articles. These dramas SHOULD be about what goes into an infobox, how the layout looks, etc., not whether they are included. Let's just ratchet down this Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet behavior. Montanabw (talk) 21:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
@Schrocat, your snark above is precisely the problem. The consensus is hardly "site-wide," it is merely the people who showed up, mostly the bullies. Montanabw (talk) 04:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Blofeld, I suspect "people who write the articles as they're writing it" is the rub, I believe that the actual arbcom decision was something more like "editors" - not specified as to whether these are just the lead editors or also the wikignomes and wikifairies. Hence why we are here Montanabw (talk) 04:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Bencherlite, I like your proposal a). I think that the three day rule is probably something everyone could live with. I strongly dislike your c) as this would be a temptation for someone to nom a FA for TFA just to shut down such discussions. That said, raising an infobox discussion should be a talk page issue and not a TFA issue, so if it's raised at a TFA proposal, it should just be summarily dispatched back to the article and not be an issue for TFA in either direction. I am leaning against your b), for the same reasons as c); no harm in having a discussion about the issue, but it isn't relevant to TFA or not TFA.
Montanabw
(talk) 02:30, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
@Bencherlite, not sure you read my above clearly; I can see your argument for a 3-day moratorium on massive changes (though not discussion), it's the rest I have issues with. Montanabw (talk) 05:00, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
@Dr. Blofeld, you make a point about articles WITH infoboxes, but I think RexxS is correct that never in the history of WP TFA has someone come in and demanded an infobox in a "stable" (horse pun intended) article be removed. Again, infoboxes are the future, and those opposing them are drawing a Maginot Line that, like all anachronisms, will not be easily defended down the road... Montanabw (talk) 05:07, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
How sad that we find ourselves here. I was a co-author for Hattie Jacques and I felt compelled to write here, although I have been very brief in the discussions on the talk page. TFA is a very bitter sweet experience for me owing to the same old infobox arguments which occur during, and in the days after TFA. Now, I like RexxS; I find him to be a very knowledgable and approachable fellow and he has helped me out on many, many occasions with my many technical issues. However, I am dismayed with his his attempts to force the infobox issue onto yet another article that chooses not to have one and then run off to the arbitrators when things don't go his way. This behaviour seems indicative of someone who is trying to force infoboxes onto an article that choose not to have one.
The infobox debate is as old as the hills and to have it discussed everytime an infoboxless article appears on TFA is a pain in the backside. I am not completely opposed to them; they can be helpful on political, geographical, sporting and film articles, but I find them utterly useless on Classical music and theatrical biographies as well as art and architecture pages. I am sick to the back teeth of the same old arguments after TFA. I really can't be bothered to spend my many months writing FAs, frequently at my own expense, only to have people who haven't had any prior interest in the article to come along and force an infobox on them after TFA. Cassianto Talk 11:41, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Now, helping bring an article to featured status does not absolve you from having to discuss infoboxes if someone raises the issue (and, frankly, for all that some arbs might wish that particular editors dropped the subject for six months, even if that wish came true the problem still won't go away). But I do think that issues such as infobox discussions should not be allowed to impair the TFA experience. Infoboxes can of course be discussed before, during and after the whole FA nomination process, but a time-out zone for TFA would help remove one area of particular tension.
Someone can probably find links or diffs to prove me right or wrong, but I have a recollection that someone was previously topic-banned from adding infoboxes / raising infobox issues on articles that were, or were about to be, at TFA. What I would like to suggest is this:
This idea would not make everyone happy but it may be an interim solution of sorts. For the avoidance of doubt, I am neither in the pro-infobox nor the anti-infobox camp, although I am probably not alone in belonging to the are-these-boxes-really-worth-so-much-time-one-way-or-the-other camp. Bencherlite Talk 23:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Montanabw: I've found the link I was thinking of [31] although it was a community decision not an Arbcom one, and was for all edits to TFAs not just infoboxes. NB the decision was to ban the individual from all articles nominated or scheduled as TFA, not just the TFA - if FA writers are inhibited from having their articles at TFA because of boredom with repeated infobox discussions precipitated solely by the article appearing at TFA, the moratorium has to cover the run-up to TFA day, not just TFA day. Anyway, if Arbcom says that this proposal is not within their remit, it can be discussed elsewhere later. Bencherlite Talk 13:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC) @Rexxs: "It is however commonplace for editors to ask why a TFA doesn't have an infobox. That should tell you something." Yes, it tells me that when certain writers of FAs feel that they cannot put up with the additional discussion of infoboxes on top of all the other crap that having an article at TFA brings, they're probably justified in feeling that way since even you say that these discussions are "commonplace". I'm not asking for all FAs to be immune from infobox-related discussions for all time - just that in the period running up to TFA day editors should be spared the hassle of having to defend the decision not to have an infobox. Dennis Brown said in the topic ban discussion I mentioned "The debate over info boxes is a valid debate, but it is a matter of timing. ... And I tend to be in favor of infoboxes in general, but not in favor of choosing the worst possible time to make a stand on them." Similarly Franamax said "I can imagine how demoralizing it must be for an editor who has sweated and slaved to get every detail right for FAC, it goes to the main page, then someone shows up simply because they feel the need to make a point. Yes, we are encouraged to be bold and try to improve articles. No, that is not the right place to do it." Those commments were made in 2012, and here we are in 2014 with TFA authors still feeling demoralized because other editors use TFA day to raise an issue that is obviously not going to result in the principal authors saying "Of course! Why didn't we think of it earlier? Let's add one straightaway!" Bencherlite Talk 22:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)@RexxS: Please stop putting words in my mouth or misrepresenting my attitude - I am trying to look after TFA authors during the TFA experience, not say that their views are unchallengeable for all time. And I'm not saying that editors raising the question should be sanctioned simply for raising a question when (hypothetically for these purposes) there is consensus not to allow such questions to be raised during TFA, merely that such discussions should be stopped until the article is off the main page. This latest issue arose because some TFA authors had to respond to comments such as "To be honest it makes the page look misleadingly incomplete to not have one there, giving people the initial impression that the whole article may not be that complete" ( Talk:Hattie Jacques). That is not an appropriate way to discuss the issue, particularly not when having an article at TFA brings enough stresses anyway. That is "hassle" - or perhaps you think it's an appropriate comment? That is an approach of some (not all) on the pro-infobox side that requires TFA authors to justify or defend their position. If I'm wrong, perhaps you could show me the last time that an infobox discussion at a TFA led to the uncontroversial addition of an infobox. This whole infobox issue is poisoning some FA authors' attitudes to TFA, and that's why I made my suggestion, because TFA is my area of especial concern – otherwise I would simply have stayed away from the whole bloody issue. I do not want to have any more unwilling participants at TFA – I have enough of those already... ;-) Bencherlite Talk 11:22, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Note: I have no idea what the present dispute is
It amazes me how different policy becomes whenever it's inside a little black border. WP:LINKSPAM is so out of control that people routinely delete lists of unused references from the See Also sections of half-written articles, yet we have infoboxes like Template:The Beatles that spam 200 links to each of 200 articles, so people on Google can't look up what two songs have in common without getting 200 spam hits from Wikipedia that link both articles. Or for BLP -- if I wrote in the lede section of Stop Islamization of America that those people had something to do with the Srebrenica massacre purely on account of their condemnation of Islam, I'd be lucky not to get blocked. But put it over in the black box under an icon (the only illustration in that article) that has no particular relevance to their group, and you're golden. ArbCom and other admins should look for ways to have a more consistent policy, inside and outside the box. Wnt ( talk) 22:13, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
I have just read this request, and I have to wonder whether I've read the same page as the arbitrators who have commented on it? RexxS asked the committee for a very simple clarification of one of its decisions about which there has been a disagreement. If the committee is not prepared to clarify the meaning of its decisions it should close this page and personally deal with the fallout from its ambiguous wording.
Personally I think giving clarification when asked for in good faith is a core part of being arbitrator in the exactly same way, and for exactly the same reasons, that giving clarification and explanation of your actions when requested in good faith is a core requirement of being an administrator.
So, to cut to the chase, which of the following statements is the intended meaning of the word "editors" in the sentence: "Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article."
Each of A-F is a reasonable interpretation of a statement made by one or more people who have commented here. Thryduulf ( talk) 22:13, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Dr. Blofeld, for your beautiful addition to my latest infobox, and thank you, arbitrators, for clarification of the questions just above, as soon as possible. I still hope that in the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, all interested editors may speak up at all times, but if that needs to be restricted, please precisely so. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:50, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
More praise to Dr. Blofeld for this preserving edit, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 15:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Clapping also for Brianboulton (for an identibox in a TFA) and Voceditenore (for an infobox in an opera), da capo! -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 07:57, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by — Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) at 12:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Lately, I have been the target of harassment by a slew of sockpuppets of editors who have been banned from this website, in some cases for years. Allegedly, these count as "users with whom [I am] in dispute". Is this correct? Considering how WP:SPI is chronically backlogged and as is evident banned users have all the free time in the world to continue their harassment campaigns, using the #wikipedia-en-spi channel or using IRC to contact an administrator who has been assisting me in on-site requests to notify them of new sockpuppets will solve these issues affecting the site as well as my ability to participate on this site without constant harassment.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 12:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Carcharoth: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dragonron (actually Wiki-star, with most of the previous investigation held under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Zarbon and Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Zarbon because of Zarbon suffering harassment and impersonation) and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/AS92813 (highly likely to be BuickCenturyDriver/ Don't Feed the Zords [both same operator], cases previously Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/BuickCenturyDriver & Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Don't Feed the Zords).— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 04:38, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Nug's posting here is irrelevant and retaliatory to the content dispute currently under discussion at Talk:Soviet Union, as has been most of his behavior to me since I re-entered the discussion on that page for the past week, including his attempts to WP:boomerang the thread I started at WP:ANI and his piling onto discussions started by banned users' sockpuppets. The thread he points to at ANI, after he repeatedly tried to derail it, had an administrator arrive and note that the behavior of the user I was reporting was problematic. Sending a message to N-HH to inform him of renewed discussion that he was once a party to is not canvassing, nor is suggesting to him the possible venues in which to raise our problems with Nug's behavior on the article. And no, the "alleged harassment" has not ended. The fact that one banned user has been harassing someone for 8 years and another has returned a year after his last socks were shut down shows that both individuals who have harassed me in the past several weeks will continue to do so once they find the technical means to evade the blocks put in place, as they seem to be adept at.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 10:22, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Carcharoth: At this point I don't know if enforcing the ban counts as harassment when it comes to one of the users (see all the edits between protections [also for some reason he's violating copyright now]) but if something can be done about that, then by all means help me figure that out.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 13:07, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
"Regardless of the original merits of this sanction, five years later it does not appear to be serving a legitimate purpose in preventing disruption."
I am delighted to see such a common-sense statement on ArbCom, though the barn door is long locked on vacancy. That being said, I support the request and motion.-- Wehwalt ( talk) 16:10, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Carcharoth: See User talk:Callanecc#174.236.68.115, WP:ANI#Recent behavior of ryulong, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dragonron/Archive and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/AS92813/Archive. And for the record, I also support the motion. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 03:16, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Ryulong's seems to have an apparent tendency to seek administrative intervention against perceived content opponents, for example this recent ANI thread titled " Nanshu's ad hominem attacks". I've lately come to his attention and this apparent attempt at canvasing here [32] concerns me as I am afraid IRC could be used as a back channel to agitate against his perceived opponents without their knowledge. The existing mechanism at ANI and SPI obviously work, it's transparent and the alleged harassment has ended. -- Nug ( talk) 07:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Ryulong, did you ask for help from the Wikimedia Foundation with all the harassment you have been getting? They are usually really on the ball and eager to help en.wp editors, especially prolific content editors and/or administrators such as yourself, be free from bullying, intimidation, or harassing behavior. The WMF is especially responsive and appreciative of those volunteers that have spent large percentages of their lives helping improve this project. Haven't you been offered the free T-shirt recently, for example? If so, doesn't that mitigate all the harassment you have received over the years? Cla68 ( talk) 10:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
The following sanction is vacated with immediate effect.
3) Should Ryulong be found to be seeking or requesting any administrative action on IRC against users with whom he is in dispute, he may be reported to ANI or the Arbitration Enforcement page.
Enacted - Rs chen 7754 17:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
During the original case Ryulong was admonished for excessive off-wiki requests of an inappropriate nature in remedy 3b, which reads in part:
(B) For contacting administrators in private to seek either blocks on users he is in dispute with, or the performance of other administrative actions. Any further occurrence would lead to sanctions.
The admonishment is left in place as warning not to return to the excessive and/or inappropriate behavior of the past, but the final sentence "Any further occurrence would lead to sanctions." is to be stricken.
Enacted - Rs chen 7754 17:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by
HJ Mitchell |
Penny for your thoughts? at 10:28, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I would like clarification of the above linked decision, in which five arbitrators, demonstrating their apparently infinite wisdom, declined a case regarding Kevin Gorman's application of an active arbitration remedy, BLP special enforcement. Specifically, I would like ArbCom to clarify:
I've seen a lot of absurd decisions in my time, but Kevin's warning to Eric Corbett, citing the BLP special enforcement remedy, is the single most ludicrous interpretation of an arbitration remedy by an admin I've ever seen; similarly, ArbCom's abdication of responsibility for the actions taken in the enforcement of its remedies by refusing to accept the case is possibly the single worst decision I have ever seen from that body. Both titles have no end of competition. Although Kevin has since admitted that he erred, I do not feel that he fully understands what a monumental lapse in judgement his actions were (for the record, I made some stupid decisions when I was a baby admin, but none of them to do with arbitration remedies) and so a desysop or at least formal, severe admonishment is necessary. By refusing to promptly acknowledge his error, and by repeatedly insulting and attempting to denigrate the subject of his action, Kevin failed to adhere to the policy on admin accountability—a policy which, unfortunately, only ArbCom has the power to enforce—and arguably brought the entire admin corps into disrepute.
Leaving the admin accountability issue as an entirely separate matter (perhaps this should be treated as two clarification requests arising from the same demonstration of infinite wisdom?), Kevin explicitly invoked BLP special enforcement, an arbitration remedy, which puts disputes over the propriety of such action squarely and unambiguously within ArbCom's remit; the only explanation I can think of for your failure to accept a case so obviously within your remit is that the five of you have taken leave of your senses. BLP special enforcement is an active arbitration remedy, so allowing novel interpretations to pass without so much as a bat of an eyelid is bound to lead to creep by encouraging other admins to make similar novel interpretations to shoehorn their actions into the protection of arbitration remedies. I note also that it is in contrast to the actions of your more sensible colleagues at the discretionary sanctions review, where arbitrators have made a conscious effort to prevent such creep and to narrow the gulf between the admin corps and the community as a whole. ArbCom needs to clarify its position, not give one message in one forum and a contradictory message in another, and most of all, it needs to clarify the bounds of admin discretion on BLP special enforcement as sane arbs are trying to do with discretionary sanctions. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:28, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
In brief: what Harry said (though maybe not quite as emphatic?)
At length: well, I'm not going to rewrite this whole thing, so I'll just copy and paste my comment from last time: The...thing, which is one that I really do wish Arbcom would take on, is the fact that Kevin invoked BLP, and particularly the AE sanctions around BLP, to make his sanctions on Eric "stick". For my part, I can't see any plausible way that Eric's original comments are in any way a BLP violation, as he said nothing about the subject of the thread. The (mis)use of BLP and AE sanctions to make one admin's actions stick and exempt them from the usual processes of review is cynical, misguided, and (to me) deeply arrogant, and I think that, if nothing else, it alone warrants some kind of response from Arbcom. Admin authority is enough as it is; apparently calculated maneuvers to further increase one admin's authority without cause needs something.
I understand the desire to make a sensitive topic go away, but I don't think this angle of it is a good one to go uncommented.
Writ Keeper
⚇
♔ 11:09, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
It is hardly mystifying why BLP was invoked. BLP covers controversial, unsourced statements about recently dead people. The admin evidently thought in a conversation that prominently involved thinly veiled referrals to a recently dead person, that the statement was in that vein (controversial and unsourced), others disagree that it was in referral to the recently dead - but the objected to comment actually invoked an action (placing a mental health template) that the recently dead was explicitly said to have taken. So, a discretionary warning was issued, and as far as tools are concerned, it went no further. A problem with discretion is that others will see it differently, and even if "wrong" to others that does not mean a warning was not in discretion. As for the subsequent incivility of the admin, multiple users have rightly admonished the Admin, but a clarification request won't clarify that the admin was incivil and that he and all admins should not repeat such incivility. If this committee wants to own the admonishment or defer to a lower level of dispute resolution, like an RfC/U or RfC on BLP discretionary warning, well and good, but as it has already essentially done the later, then what more is there to do.
I wasn't overly concerned with the decline.
Neither you, Simon, nor the fifty thousand, nor the Romans, nor the Jews, nor Judas, nor the twelve, nor the priests, nor the scribes, nor doomed Jerusalem itself understand what power is, understand what glory is, understand at all.Tim Rice, Jesus Christ Superstar lyric.
The simple fact of the matter is that, following Kevin's misjudgement, and more so the bobbing and weaving non-apology apologies which followed, he has painted a huge wiki-target on his back, and if he ever tried to pull another stunt like that again, the reaction from the community would be rapid and extreme, regardless of what the committee did or failed to do.
And I had decided to sit this one out -- until I saw the first arb comment.
Give the committee Scope and responsibilities explicitly states it's the committee's duty to "To resolve matters unsuitable for public discussion for privacy, legal, or similar reasons." (emphasis mine), Carcharoth's explanation "there was no desire to end up with formal proceedings taking place arising from the mishandling of a sensitive topic." is inadequate. You could have easily directed Kevin and all editors wishing to submit evidence to do by email and hold discussion off-wiki. Concurrent with your claim of "admonishment in all but name" is an arbcom clerk arguing [33] 'it's important to announce motions ... and cases being closed as they change or introduce arbitration policy or restrictions on editors or pages. However declined cases and requests for clarification and amendment don't. ' (emphasis mine). Being listed at Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee#Members isn't like being listed at Wikipedia:Editing Restrictions "following discussion at a community noticeboard." Ya'll volunteered and campaigned for this -- so do your job already. NE Ent 14:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to thank Harry Mitchell for raising this clarification. I was appalled by the Committee's handling of the request and see that there are unresolved issues which it is the Committee's, as well as the community's, best interests to handle. These include:
@ Carcharoth: I was very disappointed that you would instruct archiving of the Kevin and FPaS requests, both raised important questions which you chose to dodge. You wrote that "we all have better things to be doing"; I disagree. ArbCom should not view misuse of its own procedures to threaten an editor and then refusal to really engage with what he had done wrong and to offer a sincere apology by Kevin as unworthy of its attention. As for "admonishment in all but name", look at the subsequent comments by Kevin (he has not archived them, you'll have to look in his user page history)I do mean "not" here, Kevin has a selective approach to archiving, which is allowed under policy but leaves an archive that is incomplete and potentially misleading. Adding this comment following this discussion EdChem ( talk) 00:20, 1 March 2014 (UTC) and the 'apology' he quoted from another user. I do agree though that declining a case "means things are obvious enough already that no further action is needed", but I suspect we disagree about what is obvious. To me, it is that this ArbCom is unwilling to say that Eric was mistreated and that Kevin deserves sanction. Worse, it says that poor behavior from administrators will continue to be tolerated. If you want the things that are obvious to be different, then the community will need to see actions, not words.
@ Roger Davies: I am encouraged by your comments, they remind me a little of the election platform which persuaded me to vote for you. The two aspects that you would seek to address in a motion certainly do need to be addressed, and beyond that if possible.
@ Salvio giuliano: Your comment at the case request indicated that Kevin's actions were problematic, and so you voted to decline a case, a decline that allowed Carcharoth to direct the request be archived. Your reasoning was supported by other arbitrators to take no action. If you really wanted a motion, you needed to act as Seraphimblade did in stating a motion was needed prior to decline and archiving. You could have objected during the four hours after Carcharoth issued the instruction (assuming you were active in that period). A motion now is better than nothing, but only arbitrators could propose a motion and none did; it certainly appears that there was a view that comments are enough, and they are not.
@ AGK: You state that the reasoning at the case request from some arbitrators was unsound. Your reasoning that acting now might be capricious is equally unsound, though Kevin might see it that way. It would, in fact, be good for the Committee to openly declare that they had made an error in judgement and were acting to correct it. I would also prefer that you feel equally appalled by the poor actions of Kevin both in invoking special BLP protections and then accusing Eric of grave dancing as you are by your colleagues implications of your own insensitivity towards the deceased.
@ Newyorkbrad: as probably the most respected arbitrator and one with a reputation for sensitivity towards issues, I was shocked and disappointed by your vote to decline the case. Your reasoning was unsound, there was much that the Committee could have done that would have been positive, and the focus on the request name was legalistic. Yes, the name was non-neutral, but was that really the only issue you saw as warranting comment? Before you comment here, please, stop and think carefully about what Kevin did to Eric and what that means for Kevin's judgement, for Eric, and for everyone watching who has taken a view following the events. Did Kevin's use of special BLP meet the Committee's expectations? Were his gravedancing comments and subsequent refusal to respond adequately consistent with expectations of administrator behavior? What does the Committee doing nothing signal to the community? How will declaring that there is secret evidence available only to ArbCom, coupled with ArbCom saying nothing and doing nothing, be seen? Does the project need more editors who see administrators acting as a privileged and unaccountable class? Yes, my questions reflect my view and sure, there are others worth asking. Please, answer some of them.
Just to conclude: I have a mental health condition. At times, my ability to edit is not good which is one reason for taking breaks. I disagree with Eric that I should stay away from Wikipedia and I think the community can do much better in supporting editors who have difficulties. That said, making a disclosure is also difficult as it reveals a weakness that can be exploited. Also, I agree with Eric that Wikipedia is not the place to get medical help; for that, I go to medical professionals. I can contribute here at times I cannot handle working full-time, and I do think Wikipedia is important. I am far far more likely to leave over poor treatment by administrators and ArbCom refusing to act in such cases than I am over robust (and even Eric's brand of sometimes over-the-top) discussion / debate. I am certain that I am not alone. ArbCom have mishandled the FPaS, Philippe, and now the Kevin Gorman case requests. You need to do better. You can start by fixing one mistake and prove that administrator mistreatment of editors is unacceptable – no matter who the editor is – and that the Committee will not reflexively support administrators invoking its procedures in unjustified (and worse, in unjustifiable) ways. EdChem ( talk) 03:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I can't believe the dodgy and manipulative way you handle things, Kevin, including your pat "no good will come from this" when you delete editors' valid concerns as a way to sweep away criticism and maintain your false posture of being "right". The fact that you have chosen to bicker with me dishonestly over irrelevancies when you have many more serious issues to deal with in this important RFAR shows a continued thin-skinned brittleness and lack of judgement on your part that demonstrates your unsuitability to hold the title of admin.
I would like to know from User:Cullen328 if he is one of the admins who adivsed you that spurred you to take action at Jimbo's Talk against Eric Corbett, since Cullen was both quick to defend you both at Jimbo's Talk and at Eric's Talk, and quick to get involved with me (chiding me to "move on" and "work on improving the encyclopedia" and "What is accomplished by continuing to question Kevin on this?") when attempting to followup with you at your Talk after the previous RFAR had been closed. Ihardlythinkso ( talk) 07:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
My piece I said here. I understand Kevin has now apologised but it was such a prolonged and destructive (and entirely avoidable) train-wreck of an interaction on his part that at minimum I think there has to be an official admonishment (sorry Kevin, but the whole episode really sucked). If this place acts on precedents etc. then there needs to be some sort of consistency and line drawn in the sand. Salvo or AGK, or whoever, just make a motion already. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 09:30, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Between Kevin and Arbcom. the processes for regulating behaviour and adhering to policy have been brought into disrepute. Some clear, simple and definitive action is required to begin to restore confidence. In particular this applies to Arbcom 2014 who's multiple decisions last week in dealing dismissively with unacceptable behaviour by Admins. sets a worrying trend.
Leaving aside the added complexity of the quoted BLP special enforcement, Kevin's first and most serious lapse of judgement and a question he is still yet to answer, is why he thought Eric's comment in the original discussion was the appropriate target for Admin. action. It was the original post by an anonymous editor that violated WP:BDP. BDP affords BLP style protection where "contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide.." That thread on the founder's page infringed BDP in that the person referred to was readily identifiable from immediately available resources here on WP and subsequently on the wider www. It takes less than 2 minutes and the attempt to disguise the identity of the deceased using a pseudonym was fatuous. Blaming Eric for a serious BLP/BDP violation while ignoring the same clear behaviour by the IP made no sense then and despite numerous attempts to justify it, will never make any sense. The fact that in some people's view Eric walks around with a large target on his back in no way justifies the action pursued by Kevin, and allegedly supported by other Admins and Arbcom. members off-wiki.
The allegations of tacit support by other functionaries must also be explained. Frankly it looks like a simple attempt to deflect blame and have not been satisfactorily explained despite repeated assurances by Kevin that he would do so.
Finally, the case request was declined was because there was no desire to end up with formal proceedings taking place arising from the mishandling of a sensitive topic.
is just plain unacceptable, as is Decline expeditiously. Every aspect of this situation is unfortunate, but it is undesirable to publicize it further, and there is little value we can add.
Arbcom was not (re-)elected to abrogate responsibility because matters are "sensitive" and "unfortunate" and while some matters might be "undesirable to publicize further", you need to be careful that you are not open to the accusation of just brushing unpalatable matters under the carpet.
Leaky
Caldron 11:07, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
@ Alanscottwalker:. Well I have no idea what a "category" error is and I have made no bad faith accusations. I have pointed out that the original post enabled the family and friends of the unnamed victim to be readily identified, an action which could lead to implications for them and therefore a breach of the WP:BDP extension to WP:BLP. The sort of implication I'm thinking of is unwanted attention, possible contact from the media, etc. Unless they had provided express consent for that discussion to take place on the founder's page they might have every reason to distressed. I would be. To be clear, our words here do not need to express hostility to cause an adverse implication on close friends and family. Simply raising the subject, even in an indirect fashion, may cause distress if (a) the subject is identifiable and (b) the subject matter contains details that refer to events that the friends and family would prefer not to be discussed here. We don't know, we must assume that distress would be caused. Maybe why Eric was appalled by it? Leaky Caldron 15:31, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
@Carcharoth. Let's look at the comments of the arbs who voted to decline the case.
You inform us that it should be obvious to anyone reading those comments that Kevin will be desysopped if he pulls a stunt like that again. What! Whatever you're drinking, I want one.
The message you sent to the community, and especially to the admins, was not that Kevin would be desyssoped; it was this: We reaffirm that you are free to make personal attacks on editors and to subsequently double-down on those attacks. In the extremely unlikely event that you are brought to account for such an attack, we might say that it was unfortunate, we might make hilarious jokes about trout-slapping, but under no circumstances will take any action against you, nor make any official, on-record criticism of your attack.
And all this stuff about Kevin being a hapless newbie admin is nonsense. He picked a fight against Eric Corbett on Jimbo's talk page. He knew exactly what he was doing. In fact, given his fantastic interpretation of BLP, it's difficult not to believe that he thought he'd found a loophole which would allow him to deal once and for all with the editor he habitually refers to as Malleus, and was looking for an opportunity to exploit it.
188.30.20.92 ( talk) 14:06, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
The BLP policy is quite explicit about whether it should apply to the recently deceased:
Anyone born within the past 115 years is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death. Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who are confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death - six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. In the absence of confirmation of death, anyone born more than 115 years ago is presumed dead unless listed at oldest people.
Now, it is true that WP:BLPBAN is a rather useless policy. Regardless if the remedy is repealed or not, I would, in some circumstances, be OK with blocking and wheel warring with another administrator who overturned my action with regards to a biography of a living person. But if we are going to have it, there is no good reason to use this one hard case to make a bad divergent exception from the status quo. Review the whole policy, yes, but don't make this piecemeal change. NW ( Talk) 23:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I think 188.30.20.92 inadvertently hit on Kevin's biggest mistake. He ended up in a fight with Eric. That never ends well because of the number of enablers and hangers-on Eric has. As Roger's motion on the case page shows, even several members of Arbcom will act to enable Eric's behaviour and placate him any time he runs off in a huff. Reso lute 20:41, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I think that Gorilla Warfare's comment at 01:26, 24 February 2014, about declining the case, gets it exactly right. I feel like some of you on the Committee are letting yourselves second-guess yourselves too much. It sounds like you are getting so wrapped up in parsing the boundary between BLP and BDP that you are losing sight of the fact that wanting to see a dead editor spoken of with sensitivity is not exactly a high crime. I'm not defending everything that Kevin did, please understand, but as cases of administrative overstep go, this is a borderline one. Unfortunately for Kevin, his minor oversteps stepped into the buzzsaw of those who are looking for an administrator to make an example of. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Regarding Motion #3 - shouldn't any re-evaluation of WP:BLPBAN come from the community, and not ArbCom, or have I misunderstood the extent of the committee's remit? BMK ( talk) 06:22, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I'd noted this many days ago, but refrained from bringing it up 'cause no one likes a wikilawyer. But since ya'll seem to be in wikilawyer modality, here's a motion:
"The BLPBAN warning by Kevin doesn't count because he didn't RTFM and log it on WP:Editing Restrictions, it just doesn't count, it didn't happen, we're done with this morass, and we hope to hell March is kinder month to Arbcom '14" NE Ent 12:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Motion 2, section i is fatally flawed. If BLPBAN only applies to mainspace, then articles in user space, at WP:AFC or other quazi-article locations would be wide open. Articles/pages outside of mainspace are implied to be covered by BLPBAN as it is worded, but this motion would remove that protection by setting a clear precedent that removes BLP protection for those pages. I encourage the Arbs to strike their support and instead oppose Motion 2 based on this flaw. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:21, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I rarely involve myself in arbitration matters but I'll make an exception here. I oppose Motion 2 for reasons similar to those of Roger Davies. BLP policies should also apply on talk pages and anywhere else on the Wiki although perhaps with less rigor than they do in article space so that there is room for some informal discussion among editors relevant to article content and people relevant to Wikipedia who are living persons. I support Motion 3 and am leaning oppose on Motion 1. -- Pine ✉ 07:38, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
A couple of arbitrators deployed a shocking piece of casuistry which wormed its way into the rationale for a number of other decline votes: that we should not act due to the nature of the incident giving rise to the dispute. The case could have been easily handled without further exposing the original incident. Moreover, these arbitrators were implying, deliberately or unthinkingly, that the rest of us who would have acted on the request demonstrated a lack of respect for the victim. This appalled me. Those particular arbitrators know who they are, so I will merely say that this line of the committee's thinking at the RFAR was completely unsound. The other major line of thinking was that Kevin's action was a one-off mistake unlikely to be repeated. This ignores the danger posed to the project when an administrator illegitimately claims special enforcement protection for a wrong action. The committee cannot overlook such a breach of policy, even if the administrator himself promises it was a one-off mistake.
These were the two major lines of thinking in last week's RFAR; both appear unsound, and ideally the decision would be overturned. However, the moment for action may now have passed, and the good we could do may be outweighed by the drama/confusion overturning the decision to decline might generate. Also, if we overturn last week's decision, Kevin Gorman could accuse us of acting capriciously (with some justification). As none of this changes the fact that real damage could be done to the project if last week's decision stands, I am nonetheless willing to open a case. AGK [•] 00:08, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree that WP:BLPBAN could use updating, but if we are updating it to standard DS, what's the area of conflict? All BLPs? I'd welcome comments on whether BLPBAN should be updated and what the updated version should be.
I still think that a case is unnecessary, and I assume that, based on Roger's comment above and the original votes in the case request, that a majority of the committee not recused in this matter is still of this opinion. Under these circumstances, I think the best way forward is simply for us to propose and vote on the necessary motions in this request. T. Canens ( talk) 02:04, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators, not counting 4 recused. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Further to the current Request for Clarification, the committee notes that:
By way of clarification:
The provisions of
WP:BLPBAN will be urgently reviewed by the Arbitration Committee and where necessary updated.
By way of clarification, the formal warning issued by Kevin Gorman was out of process and therefore has no effect. The provisions of WP:BLPBAN will be reviewed by the Arbitration Committee and where necessary updated.