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Hi MastCell. I responded a bit impulsively today in the heat of the moment in the thread that alleges misrepresentation of sources. I sort of wish now that I'd held off, since I really appreciate your suggestion that we get back to the process we started. I think that's a good suggestion. TimidGuy ( talk) 00:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm not a big fan of analogies, but let's say that our coverage of an antihypertensive drug from Merck were dominated by a small group of single-purpose accounts closely affiliated with Merck. That situation would rightly raise concerns about our ability to present accurate and unbiased medical information. I see a similar problem on the TM articles, at least as far as they intersect with medical claims. Do you?
Finally, I'm sort of disappointed in the lack of restraint shown by TM-affiliated editors. Frankly, there are a number of Wikipedia articles, both medical and biographical, which I avoid because I want to manage any potential conflicts of interest on my part. These are areas where I believe I could undoubtedly improve our coverage, but I recognize that my connections (which are not financial, but rather personal or professional) would potentially bias me. So I don't edit those articles, as a simple but healthy form of self-restraint. I sort of wish that some level of introspection would take place here so that people wouldn't need to beat the drum confrontationally about it. MastCell Talk 17:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I just thanked Bishonen for her comment on the German WWII arb case, and realized that I never did the same for you. Thanks for speaking out - I entirely agree with you, and didn't say so because I thought the case result was a foregone conclusion. I'm glad you commented, and Bishonen as well. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:49, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
Your comment on GorillaWare's page here. What comparison were you trying to make exactly? Because it seems like an apples and oranges situation. PackMecEng ( talk) 15:30, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Therefore, the disproportionate reaction to Jeong's tweets suggests that many of her critics are motivated not by any real concern about racism as a societal ill. Rather, they care about the subject only when they perceive their own "tribe" being targeted, or when accusations of racism can serve a useful political purpose. Jelani Cobb put it better than I could (his piece on the subject is worth reading in its entirety): the Jeong matter is dominated by partisans who "understand the current debate around free speech and social media not as an attempt to create parameters of decency around public dialogue but rather as part of a board game in which each side attempts to remove valuable pieces from the other's team."
I don't know you personally, nor do I know your beliefs, but your actions here—at least those which I highlighted—seem to conform to this pattern. Hence my comment. MastCell Talk 19:48, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Boris's point is that regardless of Google hits, a President's habit of making racially-charged statements is inherently more relevant than his hair or hand size. Because you were the one who proposed that comparison, can you explain why you find it relevant to coverage of Trump's racially-charged statements? MastCell Talk 18:26, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
"most powerful person on Earth, at the same time that you're choosing to emphasize racially-charged statements by an obscure technical writer"which is exactly what you seem to be doing. How do you give similar weight to something that is a vastly different situation? It more sounds like a WP:OTHERSTUFF type situation, even though other than a racial component they are completely different. Perhaps you could offer an example of how my comments on the Trump pages related to Jeong's page or are inconsistent with what I have done? But to Boris's comment, I gave a sarcastic response to a sarcastic comment so take it easy with the tut-tut. PackMecEng ( talk) 18:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
That's the key inconsistency, and I was interested in hearing your rationalization for it. You argue that Jeong's tweets are more biographically significant than Trump's. I think the opposite is true: that it inherently more significant for an American President to habitually make racially-charged statements than for an obscure technical writer to do so. I question how you can make high-minded and moralistic pronouncements about the racist aspects of Jeong's tweets while ignoring—or, in fact, actively attempting to minimize—the racist aspects of Trump's tweets. That seems hypocritical to me. Your explanations so far have something to do with "weight" and with Trump's hair and hand size. But we're not talking about WP:WEIGHT, really; I'm questioning your decision to moralize publicly about Jeong while ignoring/enabling Trump. I haven't really heard a direct answer on that yet, not that you owe me one of course. MastCell Talk 19:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
"The difference is I did not play up the racism in either article". Those were talks on a user page about the situation as a whole, not something I was trying to add the article. Perhaps it is the difference in my personal view verses my views as an editor, which I would assume are not always the same for you either. At least I would hope not, which goes back to what I said above
"To do otherwise would be more akin to activism or righting great wrongs in my eyes". The more you describe it the more it looks like you are seeing the difference between editor me and personal feelings me. I personally have many issues with things Trump has done, especially given who I am as a person. But I do try to edit in a way that goes with policy over feeling. As far as the question of weight per subject, we might just have to agree to disagree. As the leader of the free world does it matter his racial views? Certainly, heck it has it's own article. Are they the even in the top 5 for most important things for his whole BLP to be added to the lead? I would say no, you obviously have a different opinion and that is fine there really are no right answers there. Does that help clear up the situation for you? PackMecEng ( talk) 22:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
On a separate subject, I see you've followed me to the John K. Bush article—which you've never edited before—in order to revert my edit. Your assessment of consensus is incorrect, for reasons I'll detail on the article talk page, but I want to ask you here not to do this again. That is, don't look through my contribution history and then follow me to an article to revert or dispute my edits. I think it's inappropriate. MastCell Talk 18:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
"I personally have many issues with things Trump has done, especially given who I am as a person."So it is not a case of Trump's comments not bothering me. Even on the various talks pages I am sure you have seen my past edits stating my personal feelings to that effect as well. But I try and keep those personal feels separated from what I do on articles. Why do comments like that from one side bother you but comments from the other not? Personally it all bothers me. PackMecEng ( talk) 19:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
No you did not say POV pusher, that is correct. You said I was a hypocrite only defending one side, completely different I know... The hounding is BS and I have not responded, to the several times you have brought it up in several places, because we both know it's BS. I have explained the situation several times now in several different ways, while receiving no answers on the reverse. Which after going though your contribution history is starting to make sense, though I will say there is certainly consistency in the overall positions you take. So I will leave off this one with a quote that might help you 실수하여 고치지 않으면, 곧 그것을 실수하고 만다. 실수하여 고치는 것을 꺼리지 말라. - Confucius. But if you do still want to talk more about all this I am more than willing. PackMecEng ( talk) 22:49, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
While we're on the subject, I am proud of the consistency of my contribution history. (Yes, I realize that you invoked "consistency" in backhanded way, and meant to imply political bias without actually having the courage to say so outright, but let's go with it). I've been here for more than a decade, and I've done a little of everything, both editorially and administratively. Think of it as a Rorschach test. I've found that when people focus on my contributions to political topics, it's usually because they themselves have trouble conceiving of Wikipedia as anything beyond a partisan battleground. Take a look at my most-edited articles sometime, and you'll see that political topics don't figure prominently in what I've done here.
You say you haven't received any answers from me. I've made an honest effort to engage with you here and answer your questions. If there's something you think I've failed to answer, please, ask again and I'll do my best. MastCell Talk 04:40, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
you had no consensus for what you did but for some reason tried to say otherwise.This is clearly false. You also claimed above,
it was a very misleading edit that needed to be corrected. Also false. There was nothing misleading about the edit. (I think you may be conflating MC's revert of the IP with their revert of you, thinking incorrectly that MC claimed "consensus" in this first revert.)
There is now consensus for that version thanks to me.) Ummm...no...there was consensus before too. What you achieved was converting a tacit consensus about the wording into an explicit consensus.
As for the issue of racism, I want to distinguish clearly between my views as a Wikipedian and my views as a human being. Like most people, I have a set of political and sociocultural beliefs, but I've worked hard (and, I believe, successfully) to ensure that my actions here on Wikipedia reflect site policies, principles, and expectations regardless of my personal beliefs. I'm not really interested in touching the question of what Sarah Jeong's Wikipedia biography says. (Generally, I find these sorts of situations, where Wikipedia policies conflict with what I would consider basic human decency, to be depressing. We've made a lot of positive headway with WP:BLP and WP:AVOIDVICTIM, to the effect that Wikipedia should not be a vector for prolonging or intensifying the harassment of otherwise low-profile people, but in the end, arguments about "sources exist so it should be in the article" tend to win the day). I was interested in PackMecEng's threshold for making a moral statement singling out an individual for racism, as she did with Jeong. MastCell Talk 17:30, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
For the record, the original verbiage pertaining to "nose is long and straight" must be attributed to Jayen466 ( talk · contribs) who introduced this verbiage during the Werner Mölders FAC review see diff1 and diff2. Since I am not a native speaker of the English language, I consequently assumed this verbiage to be FAC compliant and made the "mistake" to replicate this text to other articles. In addition, I also assumed the Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide#Biographies to be applicable, in particuar as it pertains to the victory claim tables and dates of rank tables. I assumed this to be legitimate since the following FAC articles ( Albert Ball, Roderic Dallas, Paterson Hughes, John F. Bolt and George Andrew Davis Jr.) also include claims tables. Cheers MisterBee1966 ( talk) 17:20, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Policy requires that articles reference only reliable sources; however, this is a minimal condition, rather than a final goal. With the exception of certain recent topics that have not yet become the subject of extensive secondary analysis, and for which a lower standard may be temporarily permitted, articles on military history should aim to be based primarily on published secondary works by reputable historians.
From one admin to another, the repetitive jeremiads on this subject are surreal. I almost never enter the fray on such discussions, but it's good to see a bit of candor on what adminship really is. This place does crack me up. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 03:41, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Have you ever noticed that the people who most vocally demand more accountability from admins often refuse to accept even the most minimal responsibility for their own behavior and actions?Yes. ~ Awilley ( talk) 18:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your contribution to the May discussion RfC: Wound characteristics of military-style rifles at WP:RSN, in particular thank you for your comments on the quality of the arguments offered in opposition to expanded content from obviously reliable sources. One of the WP:MEDRS sources suggested in the RFC as supplemental to The New York Times:
was recently summarized at Mass shootings in the United States as:
A retrospective study of 139 autopsy reports from 12 civilian public mass shootings in the United States published in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery in 2016 found that gunshot wounds from high-velocity rifles have a lower rate of potentially survivable injuries as compared to other firearms. 371 gunshot wounds were found, included gunshot wounds from handguns, shotguns, and high velocity rifles. Potentially survivable injuries were about equally distributed between handguns and shotguns; no gunshot wounds from high-velocity rifles were found to be potentially survivable. Compared and contrasted with the results of earlier studies of injuries in military combat, military combat injuries include injuries from explosives, military personnel wear body armor and ballistic protection helmets and so have more injuries to extremities, while civilian public mass shooting events are closer range, have more injuries to the head and torso, and have a lower rate of potentially survivable injuries.
...and quickly reverted and is currently under discussion at Talk:Mass shootings in the United States#Recent edits. Some of the same editors who objected to the NYT as unreliable are now opposed to the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery. As with most academic papers, the source includes a "Limitations of this study" section which is being cited in opposition. A letter written in comment (largely agreement) to the source is being cited in opposition. Opposition includes objecting to the retrospective nature of the study as inherently biased. Opposition arguments include WP:BLUE, that it is so obvious that high-powered rifles are more lethal than other firearms that Wikipedia need not say it.
Similar summarizations of this source were also attempted at Gunshot wound and were reverted. At the RFC you wrote:
If these sorts of arguments are relied upon to exclude content, or to attempt to disqualify obviously reliable sources, that may constitute tendentious and disruptive editing and may become an issue for administrative attention.
We could use your help. Could you take a look and perhaps weigh in? Thank you again. AviRich6 ( talk) 15:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Five years! |
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-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 05:27, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Six years now! -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 06:10, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Ten years! |
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When I miss a user, I write an article. For Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, I wrote " Im Frieden dein" (In Your Peace). It's on the Main page today. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 06:17, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
"I think this idea that there is no truth is the thread that will run through the rest of the Trump presidency, as it has his entire candidacy and his presidency so far." -- Nicolle Wallace [8]
Bam! -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 22:51, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Sources
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BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 22:53, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I'll post this here instead of extending the NPOV thread. Several editors have been supporting a certain passage, "Gun
expert Dean Hazen and mass murder researcher Dr. Pete Blair think that mass shooters' gun choices have less to do with the AR-15's specific characteristics but rather with familiarity and a copycat effect."
(
USA Today) (
ABC News) while opposing sources that present other viewpoints or discuss characteristics of the gun that make it attractive to mass shooters, such as
The Atlantic which quotes the original designer of the weapon. These sources are dismissed as "non-expert", "media commentary", "speculation by journalists", etc. even though they are published as news items and not opinion pieces.
I would recommend reading the entire talk page for background, particularly the opinions on why mass shooters choose the AR-15 section. Here are a few relevant diffs: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]
On a related note, I recently opened an ANI thread regarding 72bikers' behavior in this topic area. It would help to have an uninvolved admin keep an eye on the article since it's really a long pattern of stonewalling and refusal to compromise on the part of several editors which can't easily be narrowed down to a particular incident. I've written an essay on the big-picture situation which has largely been resolved. – dlthewave ☎ 04:06, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I think your comment was probably the best thing you could have added to that discussion. There were lots of issues that editors felt compelled to discuss, but the discussion was going in more of a "forum" route than a "find a consensus" route. That's why I stopped commenting.
So thank you. I'm always happy to see drama put to rest, and I think that's what you did. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:12, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Could you look over this discussion, these notifications and this comment? The discussion concerns the addition of criminal use information to Smith & Wesson M&P15 and several editors are essentially stonewalling the process by referring to prior discussions which are no longer relevant and making accusations of canvassing and forum shopping. Input from an uninvolved admin would be appreciated. Thanks – dlthewave ☎ 17:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Nor do I see any problem with the Gun Politics Task Force; it is properly constituted and open to anyone interested in gun politics, regardless of their underlying views. Springee can, of course, open an MfD discussion about the task force if s/he is so motivated, but the complaints about votestacking are likewise inappropriate and unfounded. I hope you're able to get a decent amount of thoughtful outside input at the RfC. If there are ongoing issues with obstructionism, please let me know. MastCell Talk 21:00, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
As for notifying participants of the previous RfC, that is certainly fine but it is not a requirement, to my knowledge. You're free to do so if you feel so moved; if you do, please notify all (non-blocked) editors who commented in the prior discussion. But please stop asserting that the lack of notification constitutes misconduct on Dlthewave's part, because it doesn't.
Finally, regarding the Gun Politics task force, I don't share your concerns. Like other such task forces, it is open to any who wish to join, regardless of their personal views on gun politics. Of course, any WikiProject can end up serving as a platform for partisan vote-stacking or inappropriately coordinated editing. For example, the Firearms WikiProject developed a bizarre dictum insisting that criminal use of firearms could only be included as a "see also" in gun articles—an obvious violation of WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT—which the broader community rejected. And, as I'm sure you're aware, reputable outside media have raised the concern that the Firearms WikiProject is inherently political in its approach to the topic area. I haven't yet seen similar concerning issues with the Gun Politics Task Force. In any case, if you believe the Task Force to be invalid, then the appropriate venue is WP:MfD. Until and unless the task force is deleted by community consensus, please don't keep implying that it's somehow less valid that others. MastCell Talk 20:16, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Hello, MastCell. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
What smells best at a Thanksgiving dinner? |
Santa Claus is coming to town! | |
Hoping all of your wishes come true, but I'm thinking you'll settle for the first 5, right? 😊 Stay warm...enjoy the holiday season...make happy memories!! Atsme ✍🏻 📧 23:40, 11 December 2018 (UTC) |
Best wishes for this holiday season! Thank you for your Wiki contributions in 2018. May 2019 be prosperous and joyful. --
K.e.coffman (
talk) 22:32, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Noël ~ καλά Χριστούγεννα ~ З Калядамі ~ חנוכה שמח ~ Gott nytt år! |
Could you please try to keep your talk page comments a bit less personal? [17] [18] You may be right, but venting assumptions of bad faith like that on the talk page is not helpful to the discussion and a bit off-putting. ~ Awilley ( talk) 00:51, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Specifically, the Donald Trump article currently states, in its lead, that the crimes committed by Trump's associates were "unrelated to Russia". That is false. (At a minimum, Cohen's and Flynn's guilty pleas are directly and undeniably related to Russia). We're not talking about a difference of opinions, nor context dependency. The wording in the lead is categorical, and categorically false. So we have a situation where editors have inserted and defended wording that they know, or should know, is false, in the lead of a high-profile biographical article. Worse, we have a talk-page environment where obviously false wording receives at least a significant minority of support on an RfC. That's evidence of a deeply dysfunctional editing environment, one that has drifted very far afield from this site's policies. Given those ground truths, my tone is significantly milder than perhaps is appropriate.
As for PackMecEng, look. An editor presented a reliable source describing Trump's plea for the Russians to hack Hillary Clinton's email. (The source is entitled, in part, "Trump Invited the Russians to Hack Clinton"). PackMecEng responded: "I do not think any reasonable person takes that comment as actually asking Russia to hack Hillary." So you have a reliable source saying X, and an editor responding by saying that no reasonable person believes X. That is bizarre. What is the good-faith explanation for a flat refusal to accept or acknowledge the content of reliable sources? Should I nod and smile when someone looks me in the eye and tells me that 2 + 2 is 5?
I'm a believer in civility, and I wouldn't have lasted more than a decade here, on the kinds of articles I edit, if I weren't relentlessly and sometimes teeth-gratingly civil. But any adult definition of civility has, at its core, honesty. There is no act more uncivil than lying, or feigning incomprehension, or pretending that something is true in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. Being polite to someone while s/he lies to your face or gaslights you is not civility. So if this is about tone and civility, then I'm going to suggest you start there.
I'm going to close with a question to you: does it bother you that the lead of the most prominent article in the encyclopedia now contains a false claim—one that you've now locked in place by protecting the article—and that numerous editors continue to defend this false claim on the talkpage? It bothers me, and I'm open to your suggestions on how to address it. MastCell Talk 15:26, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
As for the "unrelated to Russia's efforts" wording, no amount of legalistic nonsense makes that wording any less false. Reliable sources unequivocally tie Cohen's guilty plea to Russia efforts to influence Trump and the election: [19], "(Cohen's plea shows) that Trump was engaged in business dealings with Russia in the midst of a campaign in which Moscow interfered to help elect him.", etc. Likewise, Flynn held secret backchannel communications with the Russian ambassador to help Russia avoid consequences for its interference in the election, and pleaded guilty to lying about those conversations.
Now, our article says that the guilty pleas were "unrelated to Russia's efforts". But obviously, both Cohen's and Flynn's pleas were directly related to Russia's efforts. It might be narrowly and legalistically correct to say that their pleas do not speak to collusion with Russia to influence the election, but that's not what our article says. Our article contains a categorical denial that their pleas had anything to do with "Russia's efforts", which is false. Since Flynn tried to help Russia avoid consequences for their interference, his plea is obviously "related to Russia's efforts". MastCell Talk 17:29, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
"to investigate possible links between the Trump campaign and the Russian government regarding election interference, and any matters arising from the probe. The ongoing investigation has so far led to guilty pleas by several Trump associates"I think it is to strong of a implication without clarification. Similar to what MastCell was saying, while not technically incorrect there is a high possibility that it would mislead our readers. I get the feeling our readers would either skip over or not understand the
,and any matters arising from the probewhich would then make it an incorrect statement. PackMecEng ( talk) 22:07, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Austral season's greetings | |
Tuck into this! We've made about three of these in the last few days for various festivities. Supermarkets are stuffed with cheap berries. Season's greetings! Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 22:28, 24 December 2018 (UTC) |
Not too late, I hope ;) -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
I appreciate that there are examples of sub-standard reporting in Fox News. My question is what is the difference between Fox news coverage of the Seth Rich murder and the New York Times (and other U.S. media) coverage of the reasons for the invasion of Iraq. In both cases media presented information they should have known was false in order to further political ends. And I don't think these are isolated incidents, just the most egregious. TFD ( talk) 18:15, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Can you please restore Korean Proletarian Artists' Federation that was deleted (PROD) because of "No decent google hits. Possible hoax, or un-notable thing. Maybe just because this was invented and dissolved way before the www was invented..."
The topic is notable, certainly not a hoax, and there is plenty of coverage in books (physical and Google books) and journal articles. There's lots of new English-language scholarship since the article was deleted in 2007. Thank you. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 16:53, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Please see my questions on the Center for Medical Progress talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swood100 ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Also see my question on the talk page: For the People Act of 2019. Swood100 ( talk) 22:38, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
I've been following WP:AE for quite some time, and have noticed that you seem to pop out of nowhere when there is an enforcement report that is tangential to politics. Recently you have not participated at AE for a long time, until now when there is a request related to gun politics (which is a very controversial issue in American politics).
So, I opened your contribs at 1000 edits and CTRL+F'd "enforcement". These are your last AE participations (political descriptions broadly speaking):
Really, there is no pattern here? Can you say hand on your heart that your participation at AE is not politically biased? Frankly, this reminds of Gamaliel's enforcement of Gamergate requests which led to this motion
PS. In your latest AE comment [21] you accused three editors of "deep-seated partisanship" so hope you don't mind the word being used to describe your own behauvior. -- Pudeo ( talk) 08:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Really, there is no pattern here?Patterns can't be discerned without context. Are these all the AE cases MastCell participated in the last year and a half? What were the cases he didn't participate in like? And did MastCell agree with the majority in these cases, or disagree? If rightwingers are more likely to be wrong, and lefties more likely to be right, then you'd expect this pattern. If it's the other way around, then it's unusual.
But let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that I accept the labels you've applied to these editors. Your complaint, then, is that I've advocated sanctions for "right-leaning" editors disproportionately to "progressive" editors. Have you made any effort to assess the merits of any of the cases in question, or are you just reflexively defending your "team"? By way of analogy, suppose that, in the course of a football game, the Packers are flagged for 150 yards of penalties while the Bears are penalized for only 15 yards. Does that mean that the referees are biased against the Packers? Or does it mean that the Packers committed more penalties than the Bears, while the referees did their level best to call the game fairly? I don't see any evidence that you've tried to disentangle these two potential explanations. Do you think that some or all of those cases were wrongly decided? If so, it's not clear from your complaint, which seems based on your assumptions that a) editors fall neatly onto one of two "teams", and b) editors from each "team" should be sanctioned in roughly equal numbers by an unbiased admin.
As for where I choose to involve myself, I've been active for more than a decade here, and I've done a little of everything. I've written featured articles, drafted content guidelines, handled vandalism, new page patrol, and protection requests, and participated in every level of dispute resolution. I don't feel the need to justify or make apologies for where I choose to spend my time on this site anymore.
One more thing, regarding professionalism. In the threads in question, I voiced my opinion. Sometimes other admins find my opinion convincing and agree with me; sometimes I'm an outlier. That's part of the job. I rely on my administrative colleagues as a sanity check, and as a safety against any conscious or unconscious bias on my part. If your complaint is that other admins find my arguments convincing more often than not, well, I guess I hope I'm guilty. MastCell Talk 01:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
I guess sometimes our experiences help guide us in knowing when something isn't right. I'm sure you know that a doctor can tell when another doctor screws up a suture. Well, a journalists know when another journalist screws up a story. Before you believe everything you read, you might want to take a look at this tell all book by former New York Times editor Jill Abramson. There's a similar exposé about getting the story wrong published by WaPo about WaPo, BuzzFeed, McClatchy, CNN, etc. but I can't provide that diff until after my appeal has been decided, if it ends in my favor. You probably know WaPo is being sued for false representation and victimization of that kid, and that other news sources have apologized to the victim, but WaPo intends to fight it. In all likelihood they will settle out of court. There are many other incidents of similar bad reporting by so-called trusted sources and if WP editors are going to IAR and blindly trust breaking news, pundits, opinion pieces etc., then we're doing a disservice to our readers and will soon be listed along with the sources we're citing that got the story wrong. I provided diffs when I spoke of those sources - nothing like what you represented that I did - and I also provided alternative ways to present the information without making it seem like WP supported it but I encouraged waiting a while instead - we're an encyclopedia, not the news media - and certainly discouraged saying things that were not verifiable in WikiVoice. If you can find instances that what I'm saying now isn't true, then please provide the diffs. I don't think it was fair that you made the statements you made about me without a single diff to support the allegations. How is that not casting aspersions? Atsme ✍🏻 📧 05:17, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm tired of the ridiculous argument (articulated by Masem, for instance) that the news media were perfectly good sources until all of a sudden, in 2016, they suddenly became questionable, dubious, partisan, and unreliable. That's utter self-serving nonsense. Yes, the reputable press has struggled, sometimes mightily, with the challenge of covering a President (and a party apparatus) who lie reflexively and unabashedly, whose conduct flouts established ethical norms and is frankly criminal to an extent unprecedented in modern memory, and who are capable of creating "alternate facts" which at least 40% of the population will accept in lieu of actual facts.
But it would be a lot more honest of you, and of Masem, to admit that your real problem is simply that you don't like the way that reliable sources have chosen to cover the Trump Administration, and that you are not willing to follow reliable sources in that area because they conflict with your personal viewpoints. Rather than acknowledge that reality, you've created an alternative timeline, replete with a phony version of Walter Cronkite and other newsmen of yore, to buttress an attack on the concept of reliable sourcing which forms the foundation of this website. And no, Masem's arguments don't "align with our current PAGs"; his views on sourcing are extreme outliers and have consistently been recognized as such. As I said at the AE report, I don't think he is doing you any favors by normalizing and enabling the behavior that got you in trouble in the first place. MastCell Talk 21:11, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
deisenbe ( talk) 17:56, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if you had another look at this. In my view, Qwirkle should be sanctioned.
I put quotes in today and he takes the whole section right out. How should I escalate this? Thank you. deisenbe ( talk) 15:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi MastCell — I don't know if we've ever interacted directly, though I have seen you around and respect your editing. While I agree with you on the content question at Talk:The Wall Street Journal, I object in particular to this post that you wrote earlier: [22]. Even if I think Atsme is wrong, they are clearly approaching this issue in a principled manner by raising specific concerns and linking relevant sources. However, that single post of yours that I'm noting here — early in the discussion — accuses Atsme of WP:IDHT and WP:BLUDGEON. Your next comment is an implicit threat because you invoke their topic ban [23]. For me, even disagreeing with Atsme on the content (as I think I normally do actually), I'm not sure how you expect Atsme to present their concerns with the article: I can't imagine a more civil or academic way to approach the topic, which is what we want on a talk page. I also don't think it's reasonable to expect Atsme to just refrain from commenting at all. Would you have wanted them to approach the conversation differently? Or is it possible that you are in fact personalizing this dispute too quickly? Anyway I hope you consider my comments, no offense intended. - Darouet ( talk) 15:00, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
So then, what if one see an RfC that was just closed incorrectly? It's one thing to "present concerns" about a topic or a consensus—any editor can do that at any time. But in doing so, they need to acknowledge the existence of the consensus and show it some degree of appropriate respect. Atsme doesn't do that. She is, to parrot the classic description of the surgeon's mindset, "often wrong, but never in doubt". Rather than voicing a "content-based and collegial" critique, and rather than approaching the issue as a good-faith disagreement, she accused the editors from the RfC of "a miscommunication or possible misrepresentation". She lectured the other editors on basic policy and bludgeoned them with a variety of incorrect arguments, while refusing to listen to their responses:
More to the point, everyone has his or her pet theory about why we lose good editors. Here's mine, informed by more than a decade of editing and adminning controversial topic areas: good editors leave because it's demoralizing to watch bad editors run riot with no one reining them in. The editors that worked the proper processes and completed a well-formed RfC just watched Atsme swoop in, invalidate it with a bunch of poorly-thought-out and condescending arguments, and then go off to a different noticeboard to try to get the answer she wants. Those editors are bound to feel demoralized and dispirited at seeing this perversion of our content-dispute-resolution policies. Surely, with a modicum of empathy, you can acknowledge that you'd feel that way in their shoes. So I speak up, because I can, and because I think it's important. Like you, I worry about the degradation of our editing environment, and I see the behaviors demonstrated in that thread by Atsme as a case in point. MastCell Talk 19:06, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
"dismiss[ed]"my
"basic competence", or
"accus[ed]"me of
"bad faith", or used
"condescending arguments". Surely, our views were not
"invalidate[d]"by Atsme's comments: if mere disagreement invalidated facts, arguments, or articles, then we'd need to ban everyone who disagreed with us. Atsme raised her objections, we all looked into the matter more closely, and in the end the same outcome as before prevailed. The process was important: how we write the lead describing one of the world's major newspapers isn't a trivial issue, and I for one am happy that evidence not provided during the RfC process was presented after Atsme's critique. Regarding Atsme's use of NPOVN, she wasn't present for the RfC, and that's what NPOVN is for.
WP:CONDUCTTOBANNED, WP:HARASSMENT - your representation of me is false, disruptive and unwarranted. Atsme Talk 📧 20:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
;-)
WhatamIdoing (
talk) 01:14, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Re: Peter the Fourth at AE--I tend to agree with your take, but more importantly, I too think treating "go pick a fight in traffic" as terribly violent is somewhat ludicrous. But because I received no support and pushback from people I respect, I began to think perhaps I was the insane one. It's nice to know that if I am insane, at least there are others who share my delusions. Cheers! Dumuzid ( talk) 19:37, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
Faithful friends who are dear to us | ||
... gather near to us once more. May your heart be light and your troubles out of sight, now and in the New Year. |
Have a WikiChristmas and a PediaNewYear | |
Be well. Keep well. Have a lovely Christmas. SilkTork ( talk) 18:34, 24 December 2019 (UTC) |
I hope you'll return to activity at some point. Guy ( help!) 14:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
I also need to be in the right head-space to edit here, because (as we both know) the culture here prioritizes superficial politeness over pretty much everything else. The people who used to make this place interesting and engaging—the ones who understood civility as an extension of basic human decency rather than as weaponized tone-policing—are pretty much extinct. And it's harder for me to be superficially polite right now. After what I've seen and done over the past few months, to come here and see a bunch of ignorant half-wits downplaying the severity of the pandemic, or the criminal negligence of our national response to it, is a challenge to my equanimity.
I think the sheer avoidability of so much of the suffering and death is the hardest thing to grapple with. Meanwhile, we're watching an effort to rewrite the history of the past few months right in front of our eyes, in real time, to minimize the culpability of those in charge and to turn career public-health workers (of all people) into the villains of the story. I feel a certain responsibility to honor the efforts, sacrifice, and suffering of my colleagues, friends, and patients by pushing back. And while I think we all realize on some level that these are lies, the usual subset of Wikipedians nonetheless have sprung into action to incorporate them here. I have to decide whether I have the stomach to watch them do that, with relative impunity, without saying something I'll regret.
More generally, the reason I first got involved with Wikipedia—and a governing principle in my decade-plus here—has been to make Wikipedia a vehicle of accurate, high-quality medical information, and to limit the harm caused by medical misinformation here. I don't think I anticipated a situation where the President of the United States, and his political enablers, would become the primary vectors for medical misinformation, nor where simple opposition to blatant medical misinformation & lies would be treated as a partisan act rather than as a basic expression of this site's founding principles. (Of course, I never dreamed that these people could turn the simple use of face masks, during a deadly global pandemic, into a partisan wedge issue either. Live and learn.)
Glancing at some of the talkpages related to Covid-19 and national responses to it, the sheer dishonesty of so much of our proposed coverage is palpably oppressive. Reliable sources are really clear about the details, coherency, and effectiveness of our national response, but a subset of the usual partisan hacks are tying themselves in knots trying to block Wikipedia from conveying the content of those sources. To take a specific example at random, summaries like this: "In response to the global coronavirus pandemic, Trump declared a national emergency and passed a $2 trillion stimulus package" are proposed as "factual" and neutral, when in fact they are worse than lies—they are technically correct but deeply misleading misrepresentations of the content and emphases of reliable sources. Again, having lived through this in a very hands-on way, I find that dishonesty appalling and uncivil, whereas Wikipedia culture would likely mistake its dry concision for neutrality and my passionate disapproval for incivility or bias.
Anyhow... I am thinking I'll gradually dip my toes back in the water, but on my terms and in a way I'm comfortable with. I appreciate you checking in, and I hope you and yours are staying healthy and grounded during these unprecedented times. Take care. MastCell Talk 18:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I wonder if you have any ideas about this image request: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine#Image for granulocyte transfusion
I hope all is well with you these days. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
This was pointed out to me and I think I need to give you fair warning:
[37] this diff with the statement "Anyhow, maybe we could start by committing to reject active KKK members from our ranks, and to basic honesty about notable, well-documented racist utterances from our political idols." in combination with what your complaint is and reviewing the discussion (and your comments there) on the Reagan talk page, its pretty clear this looks like a NPA directed at one identifiable editor. You may want to redact that. (I can't speak of the 2008 incident to know if thats an issue as well, searching on certain names is not getting me a clear picture immediately). --
Masem (
t) 15:32, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
Please note, I am only doing this notification as required by AN, I am asking for a self-review of my actions related to the above and only because I've mention you I have to notify you to be legit, I am not asking for any AN action towards you or others. --
Masem (
t) 00:12, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to thank you for closing the thread regarding the site ban for SashiRolls, without having it go to ArbCom (where I think they would send it back to the community anyway). It's going to be contentious, but I wanted to just applaud you for stepping up and closing the discussion. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 17:51, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
MastCell you’ve barely made 50 edits in 9 months, and 500 in the last two years. Sashi has been actively contributing good content up until this indef, creating and building many articles. If you give a clean slate for everything related to their highlighting of a former admin socking to avoid a topic ban you’ve got very slim pickings for an indef. That stuff was brought up in nearly every notice board report about Sashi, and nobody I can see has ever once acknowledged Sashi was right about that and they were wrong. Normally protecting the project from socks is considered a good thing. But since you’ve been inactive for so long I’m willing to understand you probably didn’t know all the details. Mr Ernie ( talk) 18:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
and I knew you would appreciate it. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:37, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi MastCell,
You recently closed a
ANI against SashiRolls as a community siteban, but go on to say that This ban can, of course, be appealed to the Arbitration Committee
. Unless there's some private evidence I'm not aware of in play (in which case it should never have got there),
scope point 2 (and the note) in ArbPol doesn't give them the right to hear appeals to CBANs. Indeed, it's that which made the Community CBAN Edgar after his socking was discovered, despite an ARBCOM ban, because they wanted to ensure they also needed to sign off any appeal.
Could you clarify? Am I missing something? Nosebagbear ( talk) 20:17, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#SashiRolls squashed and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.
Thanks, -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 11:13, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
After seeing that one ( [39]) and realizing that I had already interpreted the code without a second thought—there should be! Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, MastCell. I'm an arbitration clerk, which means I help manage and administer the arbitration process (on behalf of the committee). Thank you for making a statement in an arbitration request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case. However, we ask all participants and commentators to limit the size of their initial statements to 500 words. Your statement significantly exceeds this limit. Please reduce the length of your statement when you are next online. If the case is accepted, you will have the opportunity to present more evidence; in any event, concise, factual statements are much more likely to be understood and to influence the decisions of the arbitrators.
Requests for extensions of the word limit may be made either in your statement or by email to the Committee through this link or arbcom-enwikimedia.org if email is not available through your account.
For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 00:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for this (I replied there). I do really appreciate it:)
I thought you and some of your lurkers might find these sources interesting, enlightening, blasphemous, other...
Ronald Reagan
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Was Bill Clinton a racist?
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Conservatism
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Enjoy, — ArtifexMayhem ( talk) 00:54, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
It's become evident to me that a lot of people have a simplistic view in which people who say or do racist things are inherently Bad People. Because they know that Ronald Reagan (or Bill Clinton) was a Good Person, he therefore could not have said or done racist things. When confronted with inconvenient truths (like Reagan's casual use of racial slurs), the resulting cognitive dissonance is impressive to behold.
Less-sophisticated editors seem to resolve it with simple denial—as in the threads where Atsme and others simply refuse to acknowledge the harmfulness of even the most blatant racial slurs. More-sophisticated editors are able to operationalize Wikipedia policy to resolve the dissonance; you can see this at Talk:Ronald Reagan, where they invoke WP:UNDUE to suppress uncomfortable, if well-documented, items. Of course, it's objectively laughable as a matter of policy—the Reagan article is chock-full of insubstantial mythopoeic fluff, so the sudden invocation of WP:UNDUE in this one instance is clearly selective and opportunistic, but it's a fig leaf at least.
There's a real reluctance to acknowledge any sort of nuance or complexity. In the real world, people are capable of good and bad, sometimes simultaneously. A politician can be personally racist while advancing policies that promote racial equity (Lyndon B. Johnson and Truman come to mind); they may be privately without evident bias but promote public policies that worsen structural racism and inequality, or they may be both privately racist and publicly exploitative of racism. The evolution of leaders' racial views is also interesting—Truman's early and mid-life letters were full of casual racism, but in his later Presidency he aggressively championed civil rights ( [40]). Conversely, Reagan appears to have been relatively progressive with regard to racial issues early in his life, but evolved to exploit racism deftly as a politician (and, evidently, acquired privately racist views as well).
Those transformations didn't happen in a vacuum; they reflect societal changes as well as shifts in what was politically expedient and/or possible. Anyhow, these are all extremely relevant aspects of these leaders' biographies, and of our national history—which continue to have substantial effects on day-to-day life today—as well as subjects of extensive scholarly inquiry. So when our biographies completely ignore the topic—or when editors obstruct mention of it—then we're failing our fundamental responsibility as a project.
Anyhow—that is a long way of saying thank you for posting these thought-provoking items. MastCell Talk 18:17, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
It's also a self-fulfilling prophecy: if we as a community, and culture, loudly deny, minimize, and dismiss obvious racial context, then we are effectively silencing and excluding people who value open and thoughtful consideration of those subjects—and people for whom these issues are intensely personal and existential, and not just matters of bloodless intellectual debate. The lack of diversity then reinforces the echo chamber. It's about who gets a voice here, and the thread on Jimbo's talkpage made that abundantly clear.
I don't think the problem is a lack of scholarship, although it is encouraging to see the proliferation of (and renewed interest in) academic work on the subject. There have already been entire scholarly books written on race and politics, but we don't have the will or interest as a community to incorporate them—and in fact we reflexively reject scholarship on the topic because it offends our sensibilities. But then, I've been doing this for more than a decade and I have a lot of blisters (to use your analogy). I got started here because I was concerned that Wikipedia was a powerful vehicle for the spread of medical misinformation. I never considered I'd live in a world where the primary vector of medical misinformation was the President of the United States. It's led me to re-evaluate and refocus some of my efforts to ensure I'm spending my time and money (after all, time is money) in a way that serves my values and principles most effectively. MastCell Talk 17:11, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
See: ban review at an (courtesy ping to JzG who started it. Think he probably forgot to notify. Also Guy, I mean that in a good faith way, not snarky. The internet sucks on conveying meaning through text 😊) TonyBallioni ( talk) 23:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
re: The ban discussion. Not that I felt it was aimed at me (my post was well above yours), but just wanted to voice my thoughts somewhere. Regarding the "procedure-obsessed" comment. Personally I couldn't care any less about the whole thing (even if I tried). My point was that in my 10+ years here - I have seen SO SO many discussions turn on "procedure." A ban and an indef block are not the same things. A 4th revert after 24 hours and 10 minutes isn't violating policy. I could go on, but I'm sure you've seen your share of this yourself. My point was mainly that "The AN ban proposal was closed, and closed properly. It was appealed to ACom who declined to overturn it" To me, that is case closed.
Some folks may say that the "re-open" thread is a disruption (I've seen far less called that). I don't think it is, I'm just saying some might. I've seen people railroaded off the site (IMO), and I'm sure you've felt that way somewhere along the line yourself. I've seen plenty of people ganged up on to the point of becoming ... uncooperative(?), or downright belligerent. Still - once something hits any of the "boards", then "best behavior" should be a the phrase of the day. Anyone who's been around the block more than once knows that editing another editors post is bright red line.
Anyway - I know my post might seem a bit anal to some, but given the history of wiki discussions, yes I did note a "a matter of procedure" in my oppose. Is there a difference between "open" and "re-open" - not really. Was it a bit obsessive? IDK - maybe. But given some of the things I've seen on wiki - I'd post the same again. Now that I got all that out: Hope you have a great day/evening. Cheers and Best always MastCell. — Ched ( talk) 20:48, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
At first, I couldn't pinpoint where it all went to hell in a hand basket on Jimmy's TP wherein you ended-up with the wrong impression of what I said...but I'm pretty sure I've figured it out. Racism is a touchy subject which is why I asked you to not make it personal. Now that I'm not under pressure, I can see things a bit more clearly. Perhaps if I had not been approached in such a forceful and intimidating manner by 2 admins, I would have responded differently. I do know that your perception of me has been wrong for quite some time, and that you have a very strong POV which makes communicating with you rather difficult. I'm just going to be here long enough to clear the air regarding my attempt to bring context into the discussion when I brought up the various terms and how they were used back in the day.
It was an era in our history when racism was more accepted by white society, and racial slurs were used more freely. I strongly believed then, as I do now, that it was wrong. I was not denying that Reagan's comment was a racial slur, which is what you perceived my position to be. I will assume my proper share of the blame for lacking clarity in that regard, but I'm asking you to try to be a little more attuned to what I, as a female editor, was feeling by your aggressive approach. There were alot of thoughts going through my head while trying to recall some of the history of the 60s & 70s. It was my intention to present intelligible context relative to Reagan's racial slur. My thought process stems from my early childhood in Providence, RI where I was born. My maternal grandmother was an Italian immigrant who didn't speak English, and my paternal grandparents were Irish immigrants, so we had our own battles to fight against prejudice within our own family. I was raised by the Italian side, and the words that were commonly used against us were dego, wop, hike, and guinea. It was a shameful time in American history, and a time when little kids were chanting " Sticks and stones". The school I attended was not segregated so I was not exposed to any racism against Blacks...at least, not until my family moved to Texas where I was not only busy defending against the Italian slurs, I was a target of Yankee, go home! When Mom registered us in school, I was advanced enough to be in the 5th grade instead of 1st, so I got bullied early on. My parents eventually saw that it wasn't a good idea, so I was moved into the 3rd grade, still the youngest and the shortest in my class. The Southern Democrats on our block would not allow their kids to play with us. My closest friends and allies were the Black kids who lived in Sunnyside across the railroad tracks, which is where I hung out. They accepted this little Yankee wop with her Bostonish accent as one of their own. I spent more time there with my best friend, Mathis and his family, than I did my own. Yes, MastCell, I know bigotry and racism very well...and while I'm typing this response to you, tears are falling as I relive those memories, and why I didn't want you to make it personal. I grew up a scrappy, defensive Tomboy who fought tooth & nail against the bigots; add to that, the fights I fought defending my handicapped sister from the bullies. I've had cigarette ashes flipped on me by the older girls on the bus ride home from school, I had soda poured over me, and was punched in the face for objecting to it. After that, I chose to walk home instead of riding the bus. As I got older, I learned how to defend myself against the bullies, and I sure as hell don't want to have to do it on WP.
But I digress, the bottomline is that I should have provided a more succinct explanation instead of assuming my intent would be understood. Of course I don't condone what Reagan said, but what I did not volunteer to do as a WP editor was to RGW. My time here is a special time in my day where I can become totally absorbed in my role as a pragmatic editor with a focus on getting the article right per our PAGs. I did not start that thread at Jimmy's TP with a focus on Reagan, but after you diverted my attention to it, I was trying to adjust by focusing on context and the events that might have provoked such an insensitive racial slur from a president, and it had all the makings of frustration. Most southern schools by that time had been integrated, the hippy era had waned, but communism was on the rise, Cambodia was in the news, and the USSR had nukes. And I hope that I've clarified my position to your satisfaction. Have a good evening, and happy editing! Atsme Talk 📧 23:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Since I have defended MastCell other places, I think it's appropriate to offer a better explanation of the sequence of events that led up to all this clusterf###. Let's examine that actual thread, and I'll add my commentary in bold between each comment to see what derailed it and caused the discussion to go downhill:
From: User talk:Jimbo Wales#Scrub a dub dub
(ec) Well, MastCell...I'm old enough to remember the phrase barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and it came with no labels unlike all the politically motivated labels attached to people today. I remember the Reagan years well, and a time when it wasn't at all unusual for a mom to lovingly tell her rambunctious kids to stop running around barefoot, to go put shoes on and stop acting like "little monkeys" - no labels of racism attached. In fact, I'd wager that it's still said today with no racist connotation. And then there's the 500lb gorilla picture we use on WP today, with no racist label whatsoever, and Trump being compared to and having the intelligence of an orangutan but that isn't racist. Nope - what WP considers racist is Reagan's private recorded phone conversation, and a phrase he used to express his frustration - not about the people necessarily, but about the country in what I would consider the same intent as the aforemented phrases, but because he's a Republican, his words are automatically labeled racist. We censored Biden's "you ain't black" gaffe, and whitewashed his article of notable criticisms while we pretend it's compliant with NPOV. Right - don't pay any mind to mainstream media's criticism - nothing to worry about - remember, WP is too big to fail. Atsme Talk 📧 23:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
Valjean: I wasn't sure what was really meant by that whole comment.
- So when Reagan said, of a group of African diplomats: "To see those monkeys from those African countries, damn them...They are still uncomfortable wearing shoes"... you don't see anything racist in that? You find that comparable to a mom lovingly scolding her children? I mean, I know you just said all of that, but I want to make sure I understand. MastCell Talk 23:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: MastCell also wondered, and asked for clarification. This is a discussion, and asking for clarification is perfectly normal and proper. It is not personalization.
- MastCell, do not make it personal. The only thing you need to understand where I'm concerned has nothing to do with my personal beliefs or yours, and everything to do with our understanding of and compliance with NPOV as it relates to WP and the Reagan article. Since you brought up the "concerted effort" at the Reagan article, I will add that Levivich broke it down quite well and it aligns with my understanding of WP:PAG. UNDUE is the common denominator, but his explanation was much better than mine. Atsme Talk 📧 16:43, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: No, it was not making it personal. It was a valid question that should have been answered. The refusal to answer opened the door for what followed. It provided kindling, which was immediately personalized and lit on fire by PackMecEng.
- I suggest that Atsme think carefully before answering MastCell's question, and then to answer it with an acknowledgment of the pernicious results of the racism that permeates our society. Trivializing is not helpful. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:58, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: That was good advice, because it did appear that Atsme was trivializing racism.
- I was wondering when this would devolve into subtle accusations of racism against fellow editors. Glad to see I wasn't disappointed I suppose. Don't be that guy. PackMecEng (talk) 04:04, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: Now PackMecEng does make it personal with a directly false accusation against Cullen328. Later others make it even more direct and repeat it about MastCell. (PackMecEng is currently blocked for good reason.)
- I guess that I do not agree with you, PackMecEng, that me pointing out a comparison that trivializes racism is somehow equivalent to an accusation of racism against a colleague. I was commenting on the content of the comment rather than the character of the editor. I hope that I have made the distinction clear. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:35, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: Exactly. Asking a reasonable question is not an accusation of racism. Editors should always reply properly and civilly to requests for clarification.
- No, you did not. I need you to explain that you are not making such a heinous implication because from what I can tell you made no distinction. PackMecEng (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: The failure to AGF gets even more egregious. This ended up with lots of piling on and PAs against MastCell, and there is now a long list of diffs that would make her and PackMecEng look very bad at AE. I hope that doesn't become necessary. These attacks must stop and be retracted.
- I have made my point and clarified. Now it is time for other voices to comment. I will certainly take criticism by other productive editors very seriously. Nothing I said was heinous if you read my words accurately as written. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: She should have AGF. She didn't. Instead, she added more fuel to the fire she had built out of the kindling created by Atsme's refusal to answer a reasonable question.
I hope that at least explains my impression of the situation, and why I think it's an egregious PA to attack MastCell with the false accusation that they ever accused anybody of racism.
I really appreciated Atsme's explanation of her background above, and I don't think she's any more racist than the rest of us who grew up in the '60s. The questions are whether white fragility is at play here, and whether she is an active anti-racist? We all have racism in us. Enlightened racists admit they have racism in them and recognize the racism they have inherited from growing up in racist American society. The unenlightened ones deny it and either trivialize it or don't actively oppose it enough, and a good answer to MastCell's question could have cleared up those questions and left Atsme with good support for her anti-racist stance. That stance cannot be assumed without clear statements from her. -- Valjean ( talk) 15:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
The AN discussion is too bloated, Reply-Link doesn't work and this is veering off topic anyway so I thought I'd come here direct. I know I am not articulating my view on SR very coherently. Part of my problem is that I think the result is correct (as in: I personally find SR tiresome in the extreme) but I have a terrible tendency to over-scrutinise results I want, in case it's my bias running away with me. I think the call on the outcome can be made more than one way. You are correct in what you say, but so are others: there was a lot of soft sentiment expressed for a less restrictive solution. My gut feel is that more time might have introduced more clarity, and this would contribute meaningfully to the perceived fairness of the ban. The AN discussion itself shows sharply divided opinion on the merits. So: I think this is one of those cases where people will hate the outcome whatever, and you were brave and IMO correct, as usual, but in a way that has unfortunately given ammunition to a certain faction. This is not your fault, it is a weakness with our processes - at the core of which IMO is our inability to handle intractable content disputes other than by banning people as they escalate. Anyway, I don't want to fall out with you. Guy ( help!) 07:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I think we agree that leaving the thread open would almost certainly not have changed the outcome. I understand your point that more time might have reduced the attack surface for people who disagree with the close, but I don't really buy that. As I said, to me these arguments boil down to saying that the discussion should have run for arbitrary time x rather than arbitrary time y. I've found that it's best to do what you think is right and accept good-faith criticism for it, but not to worry about or cater to the subset of congenitally querulous types who, as you say, will hate the outcome whatever it is.
Anyhow—I appreciate your feedback here, and elsewhere, and don't worry about offending me. There are things that I think are worth fighting for and about, and for which I'd have a hard time forgiving someone, but disagreeing about a noticeboard close on Wikipedia isn't remotely one of them. Stay well out there, and be sure to wear a mask even if the leader of your country tries to tell you that Covid-19 is a hoax or "just the flu"... MastCell Talk 20:10, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I regret that we had that disagreement yesterday, so I want to clarify some of the things that I said. When I talked about it being a political dispute, I actually wasn't thinking about you when I said it. I was reacting to the group of editors who were going back-and-forth at each other, with stuff like "bro" and the like. As I had said a couple of times before that, I could very well see how you and other editors would see what she said the way that you do, and that it would have been my own reaction as well. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 17:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
On the broader topic, I am a lot less willing than I used to be to overlook misinformation on this platform. I've previously tried my best to ignore it (per the first few reminders-to-self here), but the last 4 years—and the last 5 months in particular—have been object lessons in the dangers of ignoring or underestimating the power of unchecked misinformation. Without going into specifics, in the last several months I have literally watched people die because of politically motivated misinformation. So now, when I see people slipping off-handed, off-topic partisan falsehoods into discussions here, I'm not willing to just let them slide to the extent that I used to be. Falsehoods gain strength from unopposed repetition, and the whole thing is a lot less bloodless and academic for me than it used to be.
I think you know what I mean. There are people who literally cannot participate in a talk-page discussion without interlarding tangential partisan talking points about the "Russia hoax", or mooting bespoke QAnon-style conspiracy theories, or undermining reliable sources like the Post as no better than propaganda. The cumulative effect of this unchecked assault on objective reality is dispiriting, particularly on a project ostensibly dedicated to summarizing human knowledge and serving as a source of reliable information.
As to the specific event in question, I will never get used to people lying to my face. My understanding of civility has very little to do with the use of profanity or even name-calling (I've been called every name in the book here, and rarely if ever made anything of it)—to me, civility starts with honest and forthright engagement. I can laugh off being called an asshole, but I can't laugh it off when someone lies to me and then tries to convince me I'm crazy for noticing their dishonesty.
I'm not going to rehash the details, but my impression is that it's pretty uncomfortable for people to acknowledge that someone would simply tell a blatant lie, and much easier and less distressing to accept the polite, face-saving fiction that it was all simply a mix-up or misunderstanding. Fine. But fundamentally, this project is about honesty—about being honest with our readers and presenting them with accurate, reliable information. The fact that people can relentlessly push misinformation, lie about it, and then cloak themselves in the mantle of site policy is messed up, and I can't pretend not to be bothered and alarmed by it. We're witnessing an organized effort to rewrite recent history in real time, and to the extent that Wikipedians are serving as foot soldiers in that effort, we have a problem—one that our deep-seated misconceptions about neutrality and our communal commitment to lazy false equivalence have left us ill-equipped to address. MastCell Talk 18:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Seven years! |
---|
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Not sure it's Jimbo's fault for the culture here (gestures broadly at real world). -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 00:34, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Happy holidays | ||
Dear MastCell, For you and all your loved ones, "Let there be mercy".
|
Hi MastCell, Hope you are keeping well and safe. If you have time, could you look at the "Editorials and comments" section on the MEDRS talk page. Some proposals have been made concerning the different kinds of articles in a journal and have IMO become a bit unstuck over "peer review", as well as containing language/style unsuitable for a content guideline. It could do with some more input from someone familiar with the academic process, and you are an old-hand when it comes to writing MEDRS. And are there any other editors with experience here who could improve the guideline in that area. -- Colin° Talk 10:47, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
If the Wikipedia community were a person, he (yes, of course, he) would be a 20-something techbro whose parents pay his rent, who "doesn't see color", who thinks deep down that people are poor or homeless because they're too lazy to learn to code (but wouldn't say so out loud because of a fear of what he would define as "cancel culture"), who has no problem with neo-Nazis editi g here (because we can't punish people for having unpopular opinions!), and who defines "civility" as a mandate to treat right-wing extremists with zipties, tasers, and "Camp Auschwitz" sweatshirts as one valid side of a bilateral civic discourse.
All of that is a long way of saying that I'm not sure I'm up for a WP:MEDRS discussion. Sadly, I can't think offhand of any other active editors who work in academic medicine, although I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. Most of us have been chased off or just left over the years, for the usual variety of reasons. MastCell Talk 18:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello MastCell. I'm troubled by this comment, "Obviously the content isn't stable if I reverted some of it.". It sounds like a glib denial of several editors' clearly expressed concerns about recent edits. Several users have communicated with this user in the past to ask him to moderate his removals of stable text and references. I'm reluctant to bring this to AE, but it has become a serious drain on the time and attention of other editors, and it's undermining a lot of hard work on this article over several years. Any help would be appreciated. SPECIFICO talk 15:44, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link) But note that JMIR Preprints is a repository for manuscripts that are undergoing or will undergo peer review, not a peer-reviewed publication in its own right).SPECIFICO, I don't recall prior interactions with Onetwothreeip, so I can't speak to whether there are ongoing issues. I agree that the comment you mention is a bit concerning. And I notice that there have been recurring issues with this editor playing down Trump's role in the Covid-19 pandemic, and substituting confusingly worded euphemisms for straightforward language on the topic. In my experience, WP:AE doesn't do well with these sorts of cases, but if you feel there is sufficient evidence of a pattern then that is probably your best bet. For the reasons described one thread up, I don't really have the time or wherewithal to pursue these kinds of things, and frankly the degree of enabling and intentional blindness toward prolific, long-term editors who use this site as a platform for dangerous QAnon-adjacent right-wing extremist tropes doesn't inspire me with any confidence that more subtle cases will be dealt with. MastCell Talk 18:37, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
y Thank you so much for your reply and I totally understand your exhaustion. I worked when HIV was killing so many innocent, young, beautiful, people. It was just awful. Old people, sure, diabetics, etc., sure, but so many others just because they happened to be gay. Or others who had needed blood transfusions, or even prostitutes who I learned as I cared for them are just as remarkable as you or I, etc. Really it was just awful, but nothing compared to this. With HIC we could be real, caring, people, not just like a bunch of Martians in space suits. So be sure MastCell, I am not asking anything of you. But I am going to ping Smallbones to see this discussion. Best, Gandy Gandydancer ( talk) 21:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Hey MastCell, it looks like you've got some user scripts that have bare javascript global wg-style variables. These are
phab:T72470 deprecated, and while I don't think there's a timeline for their removal, it's been that way for a while. It's usually a straightforward fix, all uses need to use mw.config.get
, such as converting wgTitle
to mw.config.get('wgTitle')
. There's some more info at
mw:ResourceLoader/Migration guide (users)#Global wg variables. They are:
They're old, so not sure if you still want them; that first one you restored to test something a few years ago. I can take care of cleaning them up for you if you like, just let me know! ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 19:37, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello. I re-created the above page you deleted. It has new content and sources. I will be adding illustrations ere long. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 21:42, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
I keep going back to this article and reading the highlighted bit. I thought it might interest you and your talk-page stalkers:
The worst thing about being weird is the loneliness. The loneliness doesn’t only or even mostly come from rejection. This is what I assumed, childishly, as a child, and that is why I thought that if genius bought me tolerance, it would make me happy. When the switch flips to “brave and independent,” and the rules get relaxed, one doesn’t magically find oneself surrounded by people with whom one experiences a real connection. Real connection requires ethical community, and ethical community requires shared rules—not the exemption from them.
Here’s the thing about tolerance: it was never meant to be an end point. Tolerance and flexibility are improvements over rejection as a way of managing the initial encounter with difference. If some people experience the customs and habits that come easily or naturally to others as arbitrary, coercive, alien or just plain confusing—and yes, some of us are like this—the answer isn’t to let us have our own way. That’s not kindness, it’s ostracism by another name. We don’t want to go off on our own. We don’t want to be left alone. No one wants to be alone.
The problem is that any steps taken beyond tolerance will be frustrating and unpleasant, because we are, in fact, hard to coordinate with. These attempts will expose the underlying issue, which is not one of ill intentions or bad guys in need of reforming. The difficulty that drove the retreat to tolerance in the first place isn’t a product of the narrow-mindedness one person could turn off, or the cooperativeness another could turn on. There is something there, something in the way, something that actually matters to the human attempt to get along. There are differences that constitute obstacles to someone’s integration into an ethical community that are no one’s fault and cannot be willed away, and there is no recipe for how to overcome them. It is easier to tolerate people than to acknowledge this; and it’s easier to acquiesce in being tolerated and supported, rather than fighting for true connection. Tolerance is an equilibrium born of exhaustion and lowered expectations.
I relate it to some of the difficulties we have as a community. The connection feels satisfying to me, but her prognosis is discouraging. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 03:41, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
You stop using me as an example of a racist editor, and I don't take you to ANI. Deal? Levivich harass/ hound 22:46, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
If you want to have a grown-up conversation, then start by engaging with what you and I actually said, and drop the performative bluster—it's not convincing anyway. If you're just here because you're angry about being quoted accurately, then please see the reply given in Arkell v. Pressdram. MastCell Talk 10:34, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I disagree with MastCell's characterization of "lynching" as a "racially charged" word. Lynching doesn't just refer to lynchings of blacks in the US. Accusing someone of lynching doesn't mean you're accusing them of being racist, but rather of "mob justice". It's not a nice thing to accuse your colleagues of, but it's not an accusation of racism.I still don't think that saying "they're lynching me!" is calling other people racist. It doesn't make me racist to have that viewpoint. It doesn't harm anyone for me to express that viewpoint. Levivich harass/ hound 19:44, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
It's not a nice thing to accuse your colleagues of, but it's not an accusation of racism.In Special:Diff/1006105578, MastCell linked to my comment and described it as me saying there was "nothing "racially charged" about the term "lynching"" and described me as "...these aren't random passing trolls. These are established editors. This is our community." I guess it's nice to know that I'm not a random troll, but an established one ;-) Levivich harass/ hound 19:57, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Interesting topic, serendipitously I've just been reading How should we address Charles Darwin's complicated legacy? | Science | The Observer, by the author of How to Argue With a Racist 9781474611251 by Adam Rutherford. Which looks useful. . . dave souza, talk 23:38, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Tryptofish summed up my view very concisely; I am not interested in labeling you, or anyone, a "racist", but I am interested in the ways in which we as a community approach racially-charged issues. Quibbling about whether the term "lynching" is racially charged, in the course of an unrelated discussion, is in itself perhaps relatively minor, but small things like this can add up to an environment which impedes our retention of editors of color, or inhibits them from participating here in the first place. Likewise, it sets the Overton window for what sorts of discussions are possible here. If I have to spend all my energy convincing you that "lynching" is racially-charged term (something which, despite reams of text, I still think you've declined to acknowledge), then there's not much hope of having more any more serious, nuanced discussion of race-related issues.
Sluzzelin, thank you for your comments here and elsewhere. It's not my intent to upset Levivich, or anyone else. But at the same time, it is probably impossible to have a serious conversation about these issues without making people uncomfortable on some level, myself included. And it is certainly uncomfortable to raise these issues; I've been dogpiled pretty consistently (if Jimbo hadn't said something, I have no doubt people would still be defending BobK's "good Nazis should be welcome here" attitude even now), threatened with blocks and the Code of Conduct, and so on. But I don't think it's healthy to prioritize the avoidance of discomfort for a subset of existing editors to the extent that we implicitly condone things that make a much larger, but less vocal, group of people uncomfortable.
I guess that's a long way of saying that I haven't, and won't, go out of my way to quote Levivich or anyone else to cause them distress, but I also don't view the fact that these issues are distressing as sufficient reason for me to stop addressing them. And, again, there is no way to address an issue on Wikipedia without providing diffs, which, in turn, requires highlighting specific comments by specific people.
I'm sure there are other aspects of this thread that I've forgotten to touch on, so if that's the case I'm open to further discussion. Thank you to all of you, Levivich included, for your openness and willingness to talk about these issues here. MastCell Talk 20:58, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
When you use <p>
in talk threads (I do this, too, and encourage it), please close it with </p>
, or it boogers the edit-mode syntax highlighter (the one available under Preferences, anyway). Another option is using {{
pb}}
instead of <p>
. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 21:22, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
You restored challenged edits that were removed from the lead of the subject article because such inclusion is noncompliant with WP:GUILT, WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. There is an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Matthew_Whitaker,_Ronald_Mallett,_WP:GUILT. Please provide your input at that noticeboard. Atsme 💬 📧 19:05, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
CommanderWaterford ( talk) 07:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Not bad! Here's to another year of adminship, another year in which
I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
Of course, as Thomas Aquinas said, it's better to burn out than to fade away. (Or maybe that was Neil Young). And I'm managing to do both! Another year above the roses... :) MastCell Talk 05:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
We've had a year of protests. It's natural to talk about them in the same conversation, and it is not inevitably a "right wing talking point" to do so, and IMO it's not helpful to jump straight to that, and I object to the implication you're making about me.
To be crystal clear, I think what happened at the Capitol was an insurrection, and that Trump and Giuliani incited it and should be imprisoned for treason along with the hundreds of stupid people who allowed themselves to be incited. The people who showed up with grappling equipment and other gear certainly were there to attempt a coup and as far as I'm concerned they were there to commit murder. The people who thought they were attending a protest and got caught up in the moment and broke into the building also should be charged with insurrection. But there were undoubtedly people who listened to the speeches, marched to the capitol, then decided it had gotten out of control and left. And probably some who listened to the speeches and then left because the crowd was already getting too worked up. And, yes, some BLM protests turned into looting sessions and riots. Some people attended BLM protests in order to get into fights with the other side. And because these incidents overlapped, discussing them in the same conversation makes progressives, including me, really uncomfortable because of course the insurrection can't be compared to the BLM protests that turned into riots, because in the case of the insurrection the leader of our country was the root cause of it and the immediate inciter of it. But it is absolutely not helpful to shut down such discussions because "they're right-wing talking points." Yes, right-wingers are comparing them in ridiculous ways. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the conversation at all, and in this particular case what I was comparing was the fact that not everyone in attendance was there to attempt a coup and therefore calling the idea that anyone was there to peacefully protest "mythical" was opinion, not fact. —valereee ( talk) 11:18, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
And I could not possibly agree with it more. I also find myself agreeing with your position in the thread above this one, which I read, as it touches upon the same subject. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:00, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Eight years! |
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I miss User:MjolnirPants, so placed it here. More memory on my talk. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 07:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I cannot tell you how much your simple "Thanks" meant to me. I am exhausted after a week of battling someone who clearly signed up for Wikipedia to influence one pet article. I felt like I was screaming into a black hole. I have been hoping another seasoned editor would jump in with support, but none came. Your kind acknowledgement let me know at least someone was listening. I hope I can return the kindness one day. God bless and happy editing! MarydaleEd ( talk) 04:13, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the link to the archival discussion. Many of the issues that have been raised in the talk page archives have not been acted upon. Would creating a future, centralized discussion about this problem elsewhere have a better result? Journalist Will Bunch (2009, Tear Down This Myth: The Right-Wing Distortion of the Reagan Legacy) describes the problem we are facing:
1. The article attempts to eliminate, whitewash or play down any references to negative things that took place during Reagan's presidency from 1981 to 1989.
2. The article awards Reagan more credit than he deserves for good things that happened while he was president, or asserts things that took place when they didn't.
3. The article whitewashes Reagan's better qualities that no longer fit the modern day conception of the right wing.
Any suggestions as to how to address this? Viriditas ( talk) 23:10, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
You were correct on that "widely" issue. My mistake. (I missed it.) Rja13ww33 ( talk) 20:22, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
A recently closed Request for Comment (RFC) reached consensus to remove Autopatrolled from the administrator user group. You may, similarly as with Edit Filter Manager, choose to self-assign this permission to yourself. This will be implemented the week of December 13th, but if you wish to self-assign you may do so now. To find out when the change has gone live or if you have any questions please visit the Administrator's Noticeboard. 20:06, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Hi!
You get this message because you are an admin on a Wikimedia wiki.
When someone edits a Wikimedia wiki without being logged in today, we show their IP address. As you may already know, we will not be able to do this in the future. This is a decision by the Wikimedia Foundation Legal department, because norms and regulations for privacy online have changed.
Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.
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Thank you. / Johan (WMF)
18:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi, MastCell, in this edit you made a comment about the inability of Rfc's to overrule policy, which I very much hope is the case, as it would help in a completely different situation I'm mulling over. I'd love to be able to quote some policy shortcut on that, rather than just assert it. Do you have a link? (please mention me on reply; thanks!) Cheers, Mathglot ( talk) 09:26, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
The Barnstar of Good Humor | |
For your sarcastic essay WP:Sarcasm is really helpful. I find it kinda funny how it uses sarcasm to convey that sarcasm isn't a good idea. Good job. ― Blaze Wolf TalkBlaze Wolf#6545 16:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC) |
How are you, old friend? I hope these times are treating you well. As I indicated on the talk page, 2021 was long and dreadful for my family, and I got the call literally as I was sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner. Unexpected, as she was due to be released to home after a year at UCSF (a choice I was not happy with), but the chemo-induced diabetes was the final blow. I cannot work on that article, and I don't see that it moved in the right direction over the time I couldn't bring myself to be involved (still can't). My suggestion is that, unless you are willing and able to bring it back to its former glory, it should go to WP:FAR. Sorry to be saying hello with such a dreadful post. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:29, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
...so thought I'd say hi (while I'm still able to edit anything beyond my own talk page). Been a while. Hope you're well. No, I'm fairly sure you're not. Hope you're as well as can be expected under the circumstances, and I hope the circumstances change soon. --
Floquenbeam (
talk) 22:57, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
I think that I have found a bug in your perl. ☺ Uncle G ( talk) 05:50, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
The administrator policy has been updated with new activity requirements following a successful Request for Comment.
Beginning January 1, 2023, administrators who meet one or both of the following criteria may be desysopped for inactivity if they have:
Administrators at risk for being desysopped under these criteria will continue to be notified ahead of time. Thank you for your continued work.
22:53, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I have nominated Acute myeloid leukemia for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 04:21, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi there, MastCell! I recently posted two requests to the Douglas Leone article Talk page concerning proposed revisions. I see that you're an experienced editor who has updated the article in the past, so I'm hoping that you can take a look at what I've put together. Due to my conflict of interest (I work for Sequoia Capital) I will not make any changes to the article myself. If you have any questions or concerns, please let me know. VS for Sequoia Capital ( talk) 18:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Hey, MastCell. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the
Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Chris Troutman ( talk) 19:40, 1 August 2022 (UTC) |
Dear MastCell,
I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Fifteen Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for fifteen years or more.
Best regards, Chris Troutman ( talk) 19:41, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee is considering an unban appeal from Lightbreather ( talk · contribs). You are being notified as you participated in the last unban discussion. You may give feedback here. For the Arbitration Committee, Barkeep49 ( talk) 15:28, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Nine years! |
---|
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 06:22, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Bishonen | tålk 08:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC).
Hello, I boldly renamed two of the parameters used in Template:Hidden begin (along with other changes). However, you are one of three people who have the template placed on a fully protected page. The parameters changed were bg1 and bg2. This means that your use of the template now has no color. To fix this simply replace any instance of "bg1=" with "titlebgcolor=" and "bg2=" with "contentbgcolor=". You can see which pages you use this template on at Category:Hidden begin with depreciated parameters, sorry for any inconvenience. Terasail [✉️] 22:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is SashiRolls requests a !ban. Thank you. — JJMC89 ( T· C) 01:09, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
I appreciated your AN comment so much that I added it here: [47]. You said that really well. Thank you for that. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
You are involved in a recently-filed request for clarification or amendment from the Arbitration Committee. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment# Amendment request: Abortion and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the Wikipedia:Arbitration guide may be of use.
Thanks, Anythingyouwant ( talk) 10:50, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
[48] I think it's been pretty much never since I saw anyone say anything positive about anything I ever did as an arb. It's... curiously appreciated. I really did try my best on that. Jclemens ( talk) 04:49, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
Hello MastCell,
The amendment request regarding the Abortion case has been declined by a majority of the active arbitrators.
For the Arbitration Committee,
~ ToBeFree (
talk) 23:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Happy Adminship | from the Birthday Committee |
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Wishing MastCell a very happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! -- -ASHEIOU (THEY/THEM • TALK) 13:04, 12 May 2023 (UTC) |
This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
Hello, I am correcting a tracked syntax error on Wikipedia called the Tidy Font bug, and have sucessfully brought it down (In User space) from about 3000 errors down to 30 in the past few months. MastCell's protected page User:MastCell/Barnstars is one of 7 remaining pages in User: space and has four signatures with this error.
When links are written in the <font>[[link]]</font> format with the color specified outside of the link, browsers don't agree on how to display the colors. Some browsers display it with the specified colors, and others default back to the standard link blue.
If you would, please change:
Proposed changes. Collapsing here to keep page tidy
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<b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">[[User:Levine2112|Levine2112]]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">[[User talk:Levine2112|discuss]]</font></sup> to [[User:Levine2112|<b style="color:996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif">Levine2112</b>]] <sup>[[User talk:Levine2112|<span style="color:#774400; font-size:x-small; padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">discuss</span>]]</sup> <i><b><font color="004000">[[User:Fyslee|Fyslee]]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">[[User talk:Fyslee|talk]]</font></b> to [[User:Fyslee|<i><b style="color:#004000">Fyslee</b></i>]] / [[User talk:Fyslee|<b style="color:#990099; font-size:x-small">talk</b>]] <b><font color="999900">[[User:Dematt|Dēmatt]]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">[[User talk:Dematt|(chat)]]</font> to [[User:Dematt|<b style="color:#999900">Dēmatt</b>]] [[User talk:Dematt|<span style="color:#009900; font-size:x-small">(chat)</span>]] and '''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' to [[User:Jayen466|<b style="color:#0000FF">J</b>]][[User_Talk:Jayen466|<b style="color: #FFBF00">N</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|<b style="color:#0000FF">466</b>]] Additionally, if you are willing, these three signatures have obsolete font tags. Changing these will clear all remaining WP:LINT errors on this page. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<font color="blue">Wikidudeman</font>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> to [[User:Wikidudeman|<b style="color:blue">Wikidudeman</b>]] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> to [[User:Durova|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#009">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> [[User:Axl|<font color="#808000">'''Axl'''</font>]] <font color="#3CB371">¤</font> <small>[[User talk:Axl|<font color="#808000">[Talk]</font>]]</small> to [[User:Axl|<b style="color:#808000">Axl</b>]] <span style="color:#3CB371">¤</span> <small>[[User talk:Axl|<span style="color:#808000">[Talk]</span>]]</small> |
Full disclosure, I made this request last week here but Xaosflux declined on the basis I'd used a Protected Edit Request that created a new talk page instead of using an Admin Help request here on MastCell's existing talk page. Xaosflux has no objection to the contents of this requested change (per their reply with this discussion on Xaos' talk page), and stated that I should make this sort of request in this manner instead, so this is what I am doing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Thank you for your assistance, Zinnober9 ( talk) 21:11, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
I think your recent edit to the Kay Ivey article is quite okay, though I also think that the source itself went a bit too far in saying her ad supported "unfounded conspiracy theories that the [presidential] election was illegitimate." In politics the claim that "we were robbed" is quite common and does not necessarily imply that the actual vote count is rigged; a rigged vote count being the essence of Trump's screwball claim. Ivey, by contrast, blames vaguer, more familiar targets such as a hostile press, generalized business interests, and nasty political foes. Thus it's a stretch to say that her claims are objectively false. The woman is a little shrewder than you are giving her credit for I think. Goodtablemanners ( talk) 18:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
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Hi MastCell. I responded a bit impulsively today in the heat of the moment in the thread that alleges misrepresentation of sources. I sort of wish now that I'd held off, since I really appreciate your suggestion that we get back to the process we started. I think that's a good suggestion. TimidGuy ( talk) 00:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm not a big fan of analogies, but let's say that our coverage of an antihypertensive drug from Merck were dominated by a small group of single-purpose accounts closely affiliated with Merck. That situation would rightly raise concerns about our ability to present accurate and unbiased medical information. I see a similar problem on the TM articles, at least as far as they intersect with medical claims. Do you?
Finally, I'm sort of disappointed in the lack of restraint shown by TM-affiliated editors. Frankly, there are a number of Wikipedia articles, both medical and biographical, which I avoid because I want to manage any potential conflicts of interest on my part. These are areas where I believe I could undoubtedly improve our coverage, but I recognize that my connections (which are not financial, but rather personal or professional) would potentially bias me. So I don't edit those articles, as a simple but healthy form of self-restraint. I sort of wish that some level of introspection would take place here so that people wouldn't need to beat the drum confrontationally about it. MastCell Talk 17:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I just thanked Bishonen for her comment on the German WWII arb case, and realized that I never did the same for you. Thanks for speaking out - I entirely agree with you, and didn't say so because I thought the case result was a foregone conclusion. I'm glad you commented, and Bishonen as well. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 23:49, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
Your comment on GorillaWare's page here. What comparison were you trying to make exactly? Because it seems like an apples and oranges situation. PackMecEng ( talk) 15:30, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Therefore, the disproportionate reaction to Jeong's tweets suggests that many of her critics are motivated not by any real concern about racism as a societal ill. Rather, they care about the subject only when they perceive their own "tribe" being targeted, or when accusations of racism can serve a useful political purpose. Jelani Cobb put it better than I could (his piece on the subject is worth reading in its entirety): the Jeong matter is dominated by partisans who "understand the current debate around free speech and social media not as an attempt to create parameters of decency around public dialogue but rather as part of a board game in which each side attempts to remove valuable pieces from the other's team."
I don't know you personally, nor do I know your beliefs, but your actions here—at least those which I highlighted—seem to conform to this pattern. Hence my comment. MastCell Talk 19:48, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Boris's point is that regardless of Google hits, a President's habit of making racially-charged statements is inherently more relevant than his hair or hand size. Because you were the one who proposed that comparison, can you explain why you find it relevant to coverage of Trump's racially-charged statements? MastCell Talk 18:26, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
"most powerful person on Earth, at the same time that you're choosing to emphasize racially-charged statements by an obscure technical writer"which is exactly what you seem to be doing. How do you give similar weight to something that is a vastly different situation? It more sounds like a WP:OTHERSTUFF type situation, even though other than a racial component they are completely different. Perhaps you could offer an example of how my comments on the Trump pages related to Jeong's page or are inconsistent with what I have done? But to Boris's comment, I gave a sarcastic response to a sarcastic comment so take it easy with the tut-tut. PackMecEng ( talk) 18:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
That's the key inconsistency, and I was interested in hearing your rationalization for it. You argue that Jeong's tweets are more biographically significant than Trump's. I think the opposite is true: that it inherently more significant for an American President to habitually make racially-charged statements than for an obscure technical writer to do so. I question how you can make high-minded and moralistic pronouncements about the racist aspects of Jeong's tweets while ignoring—or, in fact, actively attempting to minimize—the racist aspects of Trump's tweets. That seems hypocritical to me. Your explanations so far have something to do with "weight" and with Trump's hair and hand size. But we're not talking about WP:WEIGHT, really; I'm questioning your decision to moralize publicly about Jeong while ignoring/enabling Trump. I haven't really heard a direct answer on that yet, not that you owe me one of course. MastCell Talk 19:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
"The difference is I did not play up the racism in either article". Those were talks on a user page about the situation as a whole, not something I was trying to add the article. Perhaps it is the difference in my personal view verses my views as an editor, which I would assume are not always the same for you either. At least I would hope not, which goes back to what I said above
"To do otherwise would be more akin to activism or righting great wrongs in my eyes". The more you describe it the more it looks like you are seeing the difference between editor me and personal feelings me. I personally have many issues with things Trump has done, especially given who I am as a person. But I do try to edit in a way that goes with policy over feeling. As far as the question of weight per subject, we might just have to agree to disagree. As the leader of the free world does it matter his racial views? Certainly, heck it has it's own article. Are they the even in the top 5 for most important things for his whole BLP to be added to the lead? I would say no, you obviously have a different opinion and that is fine there really are no right answers there. Does that help clear up the situation for you? PackMecEng ( talk) 22:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
On a separate subject, I see you've followed me to the John K. Bush article—which you've never edited before—in order to revert my edit. Your assessment of consensus is incorrect, for reasons I'll detail on the article talk page, but I want to ask you here not to do this again. That is, don't look through my contribution history and then follow me to an article to revert or dispute my edits. I think it's inappropriate. MastCell Talk 18:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
"I personally have many issues with things Trump has done, especially given who I am as a person."So it is not a case of Trump's comments not bothering me. Even on the various talks pages I am sure you have seen my past edits stating my personal feelings to that effect as well. But I try and keep those personal feels separated from what I do on articles. Why do comments like that from one side bother you but comments from the other not? Personally it all bothers me. PackMecEng ( talk) 19:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
No you did not say POV pusher, that is correct. You said I was a hypocrite only defending one side, completely different I know... The hounding is BS and I have not responded, to the several times you have brought it up in several places, because we both know it's BS. I have explained the situation several times now in several different ways, while receiving no answers on the reverse. Which after going though your contribution history is starting to make sense, though I will say there is certainly consistency in the overall positions you take. So I will leave off this one with a quote that might help you 실수하여 고치지 않으면, 곧 그것을 실수하고 만다. 실수하여 고치는 것을 꺼리지 말라. - Confucius. But if you do still want to talk more about all this I am more than willing. PackMecEng ( talk) 22:49, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
While we're on the subject, I am proud of the consistency of my contribution history. (Yes, I realize that you invoked "consistency" in backhanded way, and meant to imply political bias without actually having the courage to say so outright, but let's go with it). I've been here for more than a decade, and I've done a little of everything, both editorially and administratively. Think of it as a Rorschach test. I've found that when people focus on my contributions to political topics, it's usually because they themselves have trouble conceiving of Wikipedia as anything beyond a partisan battleground. Take a look at my most-edited articles sometime, and you'll see that political topics don't figure prominently in what I've done here.
You say you haven't received any answers from me. I've made an honest effort to engage with you here and answer your questions. If there's something you think I've failed to answer, please, ask again and I'll do my best. MastCell Talk 04:40, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
you had no consensus for what you did but for some reason tried to say otherwise.This is clearly false. You also claimed above,
it was a very misleading edit that needed to be corrected. Also false. There was nothing misleading about the edit. (I think you may be conflating MC's revert of the IP with their revert of you, thinking incorrectly that MC claimed "consensus" in this first revert.)
There is now consensus for that version thanks to me.) Ummm...no...there was consensus before too. What you achieved was converting a tacit consensus about the wording into an explicit consensus.
As for the issue of racism, I want to distinguish clearly between my views as a Wikipedian and my views as a human being. Like most people, I have a set of political and sociocultural beliefs, but I've worked hard (and, I believe, successfully) to ensure that my actions here on Wikipedia reflect site policies, principles, and expectations regardless of my personal beliefs. I'm not really interested in touching the question of what Sarah Jeong's Wikipedia biography says. (Generally, I find these sorts of situations, where Wikipedia policies conflict with what I would consider basic human decency, to be depressing. We've made a lot of positive headway with WP:BLP and WP:AVOIDVICTIM, to the effect that Wikipedia should not be a vector for prolonging or intensifying the harassment of otherwise low-profile people, but in the end, arguments about "sources exist so it should be in the article" tend to win the day). I was interested in PackMecEng's threshold for making a moral statement singling out an individual for racism, as she did with Jeong. MastCell Talk 17:30, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
For the record, the original verbiage pertaining to "nose is long and straight" must be attributed to Jayen466 ( talk · contribs) who introduced this verbiage during the Werner Mölders FAC review see diff1 and diff2. Since I am not a native speaker of the English language, I consequently assumed this verbiage to be FAC compliant and made the "mistake" to replicate this text to other articles. In addition, I also assumed the Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide#Biographies to be applicable, in particuar as it pertains to the victory claim tables and dates of rank tables. I assumed this to be legitimate since the following FAC articles ( Albert Ball, Roderic Dallas, Paterson Hughes, John F. Bolt and George Andrew Davis Jr.) also include claims tables. Cheers MisterBee1966 ( talk) 17:20, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Policy requires that articles reference only reliable sources; however, this is a minimal condition, rather than a final goal. With the exception of certain recent topics that have not yet become the subject of extensive secondary analysis, and for which a lower standard may be temporarily permitted, articles on military history should aim to be based primarily on published secondary works by reputable historians.
From one admin to another, the repetitive jeremiads on this subject are surreal. I almost never enter the fray on such discussions, but it's good to see a bit of candor on what adminship really is. This place does crack me up. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 03:41, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Have you ever noticed that the people who most vocally demand more accountability from admins often refuse to accept even the most minimal responsibility for their own behavior and actions?Yes. ~ Awilley ( talk) 18:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your contribution to the May discussion RfC: Wound characteristics of military-style rifles at WP:RSN, in particular thank you for your comments on the quality of the arguments offered in opposition to expanded content from obviously reliable sources. One of the WP:MEDRS sources suggested in the RFC as supplemental to The New York Times:
was recently summarized at Mass shootings in the United States as:
A retrospective study of 139 autopsy reports from 12 civilian public mass shootings in the United States published in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery in 2016 found that gunshot wounds from high-velocity rifles have a lower rate of potentially survivable injuries as compared to other firearms. 371 gunshot wounds were found, included gunshot wounds from handguns, shotguns, and high velocity rifles. Potentially survivable injuries were about equally distributed between handguns and shotguns; no gunshot wounds from high-velocity rifles were found to be potentially survivable. Compared and contrasted with the results of earlier studies of injuries in military combat, military combat injuries include injuries from explosives, military personnel wear body armor and ballistic protection helmets and so have more injuries to extremities, while civilian public mass shooting events are closer range, have more injuries to the head and torso, and have a lower rate of potentially survivable injuries.
...and quickly reverted and is currently under discussion at Talk:Mass shootings in the United States#Recent edits. Some of the same editors who objected to the NYT as unreliable are now opposed to the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery. As with most academic papers, the source includes a "Limitations of this study" section which is being cited in opposition. A letter written in comment (largely agreement) to the source is being cited in opposition. Opposition includes objecting to the retrospective nature of the study as inherently biased. Opposition arguments include WP:BLUE, that it is so obvious that high-powered rifles are more lethal than other firearms that Wikipedia need not say it.
Similar summarizations of this source were also attempted at Gunshot wound and were reverted. At the RFC you wrote:
If these sorts of arguments are relied upon to exclude content, or to attempt to disqualify obviously reliable sources, that may constitute tendentious and disruptive editing and may become an issue for administrative attention.
We could use your help. Could you take a look and perhaps weigh in? Thank you again. AviRich6 ( talk) 15:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Five years! |
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-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 05:27, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Six years now! -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 06:10, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Ten years! |
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When I miss a user, I write an article. For Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, I wrote " Im Frieden dein" (In Your Peace). It's on the Main page today. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 06:17, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
"I think this idea that there is no truth is the thread that will run through the rest of the Trump presidency, as it has his entire candidacy and his presidency so far." -- Nicolle Wallace [8]
Bam! -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 22:51, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
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BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 22:53, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I'll post this here instead of extending the NPOV thread. Several editors have been supporting a certain passage, "Gun
expert Dean Hazen and mass murder researcher Dr. Pete Blair think that mass shooters' gun choices have less to do with the AR-15's specific characteristics but rather with familiarity and a copycat effect."
(
USA Today) (
ABC News) while opposing sources that present other viewpoints or discuss characteristics of the gun that make it attractive to mass shooters, such as
The Atlantic which quotes the original designer of the weapon. These sources are dismissed as "non-expert", "media commentary", "speculation by journalists", etc. even though they are published as news items and not opinion pieces.
I would recommend reading the entire talk page for background, particularly the opinions on why mass shooters choose the AR-15 section. Here are a few relevant diffs: [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]
On a related note, I recently opened an ANI thread regarding 72bikers' behavior in this topic area. It would help to have an uninvolved admin keep an eye on the article since it's really a long pattern of stonewalling and refusal to compromise on the part of several editors which can't easily be narrowed down to a particular incident. I've written an essay on the big-picture situation which has largely been resolved. – dlthewave ☎ 04:06, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I think your comment was probably the best thing you could have added to that discussion. There were lots of issues that editors felt compelled to discuss, but the discussion was going in more of a "forum" route than a "find a consensus" route. That's why I stopped commenting.
So thank you. I'm always happy to see drama put to rest, and I think that's what you did. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:12, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Could you look over this discussion, these notifications and this comment? The discussion concerns the addition of criminal use information to Smith & Wesson M&P15 and several editors are essentially stonewalling the process by referring to prior discussions which are no longer relevant and making accusations of canvassing and forum shopping. Input from an uninvolved admin would be appreciated. Thanks – dlthewave ☎ 17:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Nor do I see any problem with the Gun Politics Task Force; it is properly constituted and open to anyone interested in gun politics, regardless of their underlying views. Springee can, of course, open an MfD discussion about the task force if s/he is so motivated, but the complaints about votestacking are likewise inappropriate and unfounded. I hope you're able to get a decent amount of thoughtful outside input at the RfC. If there are ongoing issues with obstructionism, please let me know. MastCell Talk 21:00, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
As for notifying participants of the previous RfC, that is certainly fine but it is not a requirement, to my knowledge. You're free to do so if you feel so moved; if you do, please notify all (non-blocked) editors who commented in the prior discussion. But please stop asserting that the lack of notification constitutes misconduct on Dlthewave's part, because it doesn't.
Finally, regarding the Gun Politics task force, I don't share your concerns. Like other such task forces, it is open to any who wish to join, regardless of their personal views on gun politics. Of course, any WikiProject can end up serving as a platform for partisan vote-stacking or inappropriately coordinated editing. For example, the Firearms WikiProject developed a bizarre dictum insisting that criminal use of firearms could only be included as a "see also" in gun articles—an obvious violation of WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT—which the broader community rejected. And, as I'm sure you're aware, reputable outside media have raised the concern that the Firearms WikiProject is inherently political in its approach to the topic area. I haven't yet seen similar concerning issues with the Gun Politics Task Force. In any case, if you believe the Task Force to be invalid, then the appropriate venue is WP:MfD. Until and unless the task force is deleted by community consensus, please don't keep implying that it's somehow less valid that others. MastCell Talk 20:16, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Hello, MastCell. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
What smells best at a Thanksgiving dinner? |
Santa Claus is coming to town! | |
Hoping all of your wishes come true, but I'm thinking you'll settle for the first 5, right? 😊 Stay warm...enjoy the holiday season...make happy memories!! Atsme ✍🏻 📧 23:40, 11 December 2018 (UTC) |
Best wishes for this holiday season! Thank you for your Wiki contributions in 2018. May 2019 be prosperous and joyful. --
K.e.coffman (
talk) 22:32, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Noël ~ καλά Χριστούγεννα ~ З Калядамі ~ חנוכה שמח ~ Gott nytt år! |
Could you please try to keep your talk page comments a bit less personal? [17] [18] You may be right, but venting assumptions of bad faith like that on the talk page is not helpful to the discussion and a bit off-putting. ~ Awilley ( talk) 00:51, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Specifically, the Donald Trump article currently states, in its lead, that the crimes committed by Trump's associates were "unrelated to Russia". That is false. (At a minimum, Cohen's and Flynn's guilty pleas are directly and undeniably related to Russia). We're not talking about a difference of opinions, nor context dependency. The wording in the lead is categorical, and categorically false. So we have a situation where editors have inserted and defended wording that they know, or should know, is false, in the lead of a high-profile biographical article. Worse, we have a talk-page environment where obviously false wording receives at least a significant minority of support on an RfC. That's evidence of a deeply dysfunctional editing environment, one that has drifted very far afield from this site's policies. Given those ground truths, my tone is significantly milder than perhaps is appropriate.
As for PackMecEng, look. An editor presented a reliable source describing Trump's plea for the Russians to hack Hillary Clinton's email. (The source is entitled, in part, "Trump Invited the Russians to Hack Clinton"). PackMecEng responded: "I do not think any reasonable person takes that comment as actually asking Russia to hack Hillary." So you have a reliable source saying X, and an editor responding by saying that no reasonable person believes X. That is bizarre. What is the good-faith explanation for a flat refusal to accept or acknowledge the content of reliable sources? Should I nod and smile when someone looks me in the eye and tells me that 2 + 2 is 5?
I'm a believer in civility, and I wouldn't have lasted more than a decade here, on the kinds of articles I edit, if I weren't relentlessly and sometimes teeth-gratingly civil. But any adult definition of civility has, at its core, honesty. There is no act more uncivil than lying, or feigning incomprehension, or pretending that something is true in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. Being polite to someone while s/he lies to your face or gaslights you is not civility. So if this is about tone and civility, then I'm going to suggest you start there.
I'm going to close with a question to you: does it bother you that the lead of the most prominent article in the encyclopedia now contains a false claim—one that you've now locked in place by protecting the article—and that numerous editors continue to defend this false claim on the talkpage? It bothers me, and I'm open to your suggestions on how to address it. MastCell Talk 15:26, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
As for the "unrelated to Russia's efforts" wording, no amount of legalistic nonsense makes that wording any less false. Reliable sources unequivocally tie Cohen's guilty plea to Russia efforts to influence Trump and the election: [19], "(Cohen's plea shows) that Trump was engaged in business dealings with Russia in the midst of a campaign in which Moscow interfered to help elect him.", etc. Likewise, Flynn held secret backchannel communications with the Russian ambassador to help Russia avoid consequences for its interference in the election, and pleaded guilty to lying about those conversations.
Now, our article says that the guilty pleas were "unrelated to Russia's efforts". But obviously, both Cohen's and Flynn's pleas were directly related to Russia's efforts. It might be narrowly and legalistically correct to say that their pleas do not speak to collusion with Russia to influence the election, but that's not what our article says. Our article contains a categorical denial that their pleas had anything to do with "Russia's efforts", which is false. Since Flynn tried to help Russia avoid consequences for their interference, his plea is obviously "related to Russia's efforts". MastCell Talk 17:29, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
"to investigate possible links between the Trump campaign and the Russian government regarding election interference, and any matters arising from the probe. The ongoing investigation has so far led to guilty pleas by several Trump associates"I think it is to strong of a implication without clarification. Similar to what MastCell was saying, while not technically incorrect there is a high possibility that it would mislead our readers. I get the feeling our readers would either skip over or not understand the
,and any matters arising from the probewhich would then make it an incorrect statement. PackMecEng ( talk) 22:07, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Austral season's greetings | |
Tuck into this! We've made about three of these in the last few days for various festivities. Supermarkets are stuffed with cheap berries. Season's greetings! Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 22:28, 24 December 2018 (UTC) |
Not too late, I hope ;) -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 13:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
I appreciate that there are examples of sub-standard reporting in Fox News. My question is what is the difference between Fox news coverage of the Seth Rich murder and the New York Times (and other U.S. media) coverage of the reasons for the invasion of Iraq. In both cases media presented information they should have known was false in order to further political ends. And I don't think these are isolated incidents, just the most egregious. TFD ( talk) 18:15, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Can you please restore Korean Proletarian Artists' Federation that was deleted (PROD) because of "No decent google hits. Possible hoax, or un-notable thing. Maybe just because this was invented and dissolved way before the www was invented..."
The topic is notable, certainly not a hoax, and there is plenty of coverage in books (physical and Google books) and journal articles. There's lots of new English-language scholarship since the article was deleted in 2007. Thank you. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 16:53, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Please see my questions on the Center for Medical Progress talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swood100 ( talk • contribs) 22:02, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Also see my question on the talk page: For the People Act of 2019. Swood100 ( talk) 22:38, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
I've been following WP:AE for quite some time, and have noticed that you seem to pop out of nowhere when there is an enforcement report that is tangential to politics. Recently you have not participated at AE for a long time, until now when there is a request related to gun politics (which is a very controversial issue in American politics).
So, I opened your contribs at 1000 edits and CTRL+F'd "enforcement". These are your last AE participations (political descriptions broadly speaking):
Really, there is no pattern here? Can you say hand on your heart that your participation at AE is not politically biased? Frankly, this reminds of Gamaliel's enforcement of Gamergate requests which led to this motion
PS. In your latest AE comment [21] you accused three editors of "deep-seated partisanship" so hope you don't mind the word being used to describe your own behauvior. -- Pudeo ( talk) 08:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Really, there is no pattern here?Patterns can't be discerned without context. Are these all the AE cases MastCell participated in the last year and a half? What were the cases he didn't participate in like? And did MastCell agree with the majority in these cases, or disagree? If rightwingers are more likely to be wrong, and lefties more likely to be right, then you'd expect this pattern. If it's the other way around, then it's unusual.
But let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that I accept the labels you've applied to these editors. Your complaint, then, is that I've advocated sanctions for "right-leaning" editors disproportionately to "progressive" editors. Have you made any effort to assess the merits of any of the cases in question, or are you just reflexively defending your "team"? By way of analogy, suppose that, in the course of a football game, the Packers are flagged for 150 yards of penalties while the Bears are penalized for only 15 yards. Does that mean that the referees are biased against the Packers? Or does it mean that the Packers committed more penalties than the Bears, while the referees did their level best to call the game fairly? I don't see any evidence that you've tried to disentangle these two potential explanations. Do you think that some or all of those cases were wrongly decided? If so, it's not clear from your complaint, which seems based on your assumptions that a) editors fall neatly onto one of two "teams", and b) editors from each "team" should be sanctioned in roughly equal numbers by an unbiased admin.
As for where I choose to involve myself, I've been active for more than a decade here, and I've done a little of everything. I've written featured articles, drafted content guidelines, handled vandalism, new page patrol, and protection requests, and participated in every level of dispute resolution. I don't feel the need to justify or make apologies for where I choose to spend my time on this site anymore.
One more thing, regarding professionalism. In the threads in question, I voiced my opinion. Sometimes other admins find my opinion convincing and agree with me; sometimes I'm an outlier. That's part of the job. I rely on my administrative colleagues as a sanity check, and as a safety against any conscious or unconscious bias on my part. If your complaint is that other admins find my arguments convincing more often than not, well, I guess I hope I'm guilty. MastCell Talk 01:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
I guess sometimes our experiences help guide us in knowing when something isn't right. I'm sure you know that a doctor can tell when another doctor screws up a suture. Well, a journalists know when another journalist screws up a story. Before you believe everything you read, you might want to take a look at this tell all book by former New York Times editor Jill Abramson. There's a similar exposé about getting the story wrong published by WaPo about WaPo, BuzzFeed, McClatchy, CNN, etc. but I can't provide that diff until after my appeal has been decided, if it ends in my favor. You probably know WaPo is being sued for false representation and victimization of that kid, and that other news sources have apologized to the victim, but WaPo intends to fight it. In all likelihood they will settle out of court. There are many other incidents of similar bad reporting by so-called trusted sources and if WP editors are going to IAR and blindly trust breaking news, pundits, opinion pieces etc., then we're doing a disservice to our readers and will soon be listed along with the sources we're citing that got the story wrong. I provided diffs when I spoke of those sources - nothing like what you represented that I did - and I also provided alternative ways to present the information without making it seem like WP supported it but I encouraged waiting a while instead - we're an encyclopedia, not the news media - and certainly discouraged saying things that were not verifiable in WikiVoice. If you can find instances that what I'm saying now isn't true, then please provide the diffs. I don't think it was fair that you made the statements you made about me without a single diff to support the allegations. How is that not casting aspersions? Atsme ✍🏻 📧 05:17, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm tired of the ridiculous argument (articulated by Masem, for instance) that the news media were perfectly good sources until all of a sudden, in 2016, they suddenly became questionable, dubious, partisan, and unreliable. That's utter self-serving nonsense. Yes, the reputable press has struggled, sometimes mightily, with the challenge of covering a President (and a party apparatus) who lie reflexively and unabashedly, whose conduct flouts established ethical norms and is frankly criminal to an extent unprecedented in modern memory, and who are capable of creating "alternate facts" which at least 40% of the population will accept in lieu of actual facts.
But it would be a lot more honest of you, and of Masem, to admit that your real problem is simply that you don't like the way that reliable sources have chosen to cover the Trump Administration, and that you are not willing to follow reliable sources in that area because they conflict with your personal viewpoints. Rather than acknowledge that reality, you've created an alternative timeline, replete with a phony version of Walter Cronkite and other newsmen of yore, to buttress an attack on the concept of reliable sourcing which forms the foundation of this website. And no, Masem's arguments don't "align with our current PAGs"; his views on sourcing are extreme outliers and have consistently been recognized as such. As I said at the AE report, I don't think he is doing you any favors by normalizing and enabling the behavior that got you in trouble in the first place. MastCell Talk 21:11, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
deisenbe ( talk) 17:56, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if you had another look at this. In my view, Qwirkle should be sanctioned.
I put quotes in today and he takes the whole section right out. How should I escalate this? Thank you. deisenbe ( talk) 15:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi MastCell — I don't know if we've ever interacted directly, though I have seen you around and respect your editing. While I agree with you on the content question at Talk:The Wall Street Journal, I object in particular to this post that you wrote earlier: [22]. Even if I think Atsme is wrong, they are clearly approaching this issue in a principled manner by raising specific concerns and linking relevant sources. However, that single post of yours that I'm noting here — early in the discussion — accuses Atsme of WP:IDHT and WP:BLUDGEON. Your next comment is an implicit threat because you invoke their topic ban [23]. For me, even disagreeing with Atsme on the content (as I think I normally do actually), I'm not sure how you expect Atsme to present their concerns with the article: I can't imagine a more civil or academic way to approach the topic, which is what we want on a talk page. I also don't think it's reasonable to expect Atsme to just refrain from commenting at all. Would you have wanted them to approach the conversation differently? Or is it possible that you are in fact personalizing this dispute too quickly? Anyway I hope you consider my comments, no offense intended. - Darouet ( talk) 15:00, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
So then, what if one see an RfC that was just closed incorrectly? It's one thing to "present concerns" about a topic or a consensus—any editor can do that at any time. But in doing so, they need to acknowledge the existence of the consensus and show it some degree of appropriate respect. Atsme doesn't do that. She is, to parrot the classic description of the surgeon's mindset, "often wrong, but never in doubt". Rather than voicing a "content-based and collegial" critique, and rather than approaching the issue as a good-faith disagreement, she accused the editors from the RfC of "a miscommunication or possible misrepresentation". She lectured the other editors on basic policy and bludgeoned them with a variety of incorrect arguments, while refusing to listen to their responses:
More to the point, everyone has his or her pet theory about why we lose good editors. Here's mine, informed by more than a decade of editing and adminning controversial topic areas: good editors leave because it's demoralizing to watch bad editors run riot with no one reining them in. The editors that worked the proper processes and completed a well-formed RfC just watched Atsme swoop in, invalidate it with a bunch of poorly-thought-out and condescending arguments, and then go off to a different noticeboard to try to get the answer she wants. Those editors are bound to feel demoralized and dispirited at seeing this perversion of our content-dispute-resolution policies. Surely, with a modicum of empathy, you can acknowledge that you'd feel that way in their shoes. So I speak up, because I can, and because I think it's important. Like you, I worry about the degradation of our editing environment, and I see the behaviors demonstrated in that thread by Atsme as a case in point. MastCell Talk 19:06, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
"dismiss[ed]"my
"basic competence", or
"accus[ed]"me of
"bad faith", or used
"condescending arguments". Surely, our views were not
"invalidate[d]"by Atsme's comments: if mere disagreement invalidated facts, arguments, or articles, then we'd need to ban everyone who disagreed with us. Atsme raised her objections, we all looked into the matter more closely, and in the end the same outcome as before prevailed. The process was important: how we write the lead describing one of the world's major newspapers isn't a trivial issue, and I for one am happy that evidence not provided during the RfC process was presented after Atsme's critique. Regarding Atsme's use of NPOVN, she wasn't present for the RfC, and that's what NPOVN is for.
WP:CONDUCTTOBANNED, WP:HARASSMENT - your representation of me is false, disruptive and unwarranted. Atsme Talk 📧 20:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
;-)
WhatamIdoing (
talk) 01:14, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Re: Peter the Fourth at AE--I tend to agree with your take, but more importantly, I too think treating "go pick a fight in traffic" as terribly violent is somewhat ludicrous. But because I received no support and pushback from people I respect, I began to think perhaps I was the insane one. It's nice to know that if I am insane, at least there are others who share my delusions. Cheers! Dumuzid ( talk) 19:37, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
Faithful friends who are dear to us | ||
... gather near to us once more. May your heart be light and your troubles out of sight, now and in the New Year. |
Have a WikiChristmas and a PediaNewYear | |
Be well. Keep well. Have a lovely Christmas. SilkTork ( talk) 18:34, 24 December 2019 (UTC) |
I hope you'll return to activity at some point. Guy ( help!) 14:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
I also need to be in the right head-space to edit here, because (as we both know) the culture here prioritizes superficial politeness over pretty much everything else. The people who used to make this place interesting and engaging—the ones who understood civility as an extension of basic human decency rather than as weaponized tone-policing—are pretty much extinct. And it's harder for me to be superficially polite right now. After what I've seen and done over the past few months, to come here and see a bunch of ignorant half-wits downplaying the severity of the pandemic, or the criminal negligence of our national response to it, is a challenge to my equanimity.
I think the sheer avoidability of so much of the suffering and death is the hardest thing to grapple with. Meanwhile, we're watching an effort to rewrite the history of the past few months right in front of our eyes, in real time, to minimize the culpability of those in charge and to turn career public-health workers (of all people) into the villains of the story. I feel a certain responsibility to honor the efforts, sacrifice, and suffering of my colleagues, friends, and patients by pushing back. And while I think we all realize on some level that these are lies, the usual subset of Wikipedians nonetheless have sprung into action to incorporate them here. I have to decide whether I have the stomach to watch them do that, with relative impunity, without saying something I'll regret.
More generally, the reason I first got involved with Wikipedia—and a governing principle in my decade-plus here—has been to make Wikipedia a vehicle of accurate, high-quality medical information, and to limit the harm caused by medical misinformation here. I don't think I anticipated a situation where the President of the United States, and his political enablers, would become the primary vectors for medical misinformation, nor where simple opposition to blatant medical misinformation & lies would be treated as a partisan act rather than as a basic expression of this site's founding principles. (Of course, I never dreamed that these people could turn the simple use of face masks, during a deadly global pandemic, into a partisan wedge issue either. Live and learn.)
Glancing at some of the talkpages related to Covid-19 and national responses to it, the sheer dishonesty of so much of our proposed coverage is palpably oppressive. Reliable sources are really clear about the details, coherency, and effectiveness of our national response, but a subset of the usual partisan hacks are tying themselves in knots trying to block Wikipedia from conveying the content of those sources. To take a specific example at random, summaries like this: "In response to the global coronavirus pandemic, Trump declared a national emergency and passed a $2 trillion stimulus package" are proposed as "factual" and neutral, when in fact they are worse than lies—they are technically correct but deeply misleading misrepresentations of the content and emphases of reliable sources. Again, having lived through this in a very hands-on way, I find that dishonesty appalling and uncivil, whereas Wikipedia culture would likely mistake its dry concision for neutrality and my passionate disapproval for incivility or bias.
Anyhow... I am thinking I'll gradually dip my toes back in the water, but on my terms and in a way I'm comfortable with. I appreciate you checking in, and I hope you and yours are staying healthy and grounded during these unprecedented times. Take care. MastCell Talk 18:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I wonder if you have any ideas about this image request: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine#Image for granulocyte transfusion
I hope all is well with you these days. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
This was pointed out to me and I think I need to give you fair warning:
[37] this diff with the statement "Anyhow, maybe we could start by committing to reject active KKK members from our ranks, and to basic honesty about notable, well-documented racist utterances from our political idols." in combination with what your complaint is and reviewing the discussion (and your comments there) on the Reagan talk page, its pretty clear this looks like a NPA directed at one identifiable editor. You may want to redact that. (I can't speak of the 2008 incident to know if thats an issue as well, searching on certain names is not getting me a clear picture immediately). --
Masem (
t) 15:32, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
Please note, I am only doing this notification as required by AN, I am asking for a self-review of my actions related to the above and only because I've mention you I have to notify you to be legit, I am not asking for any AN action towards you or others. --
Masem (
t) 00:12, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to thank you for closing the thread regarding the site ban for SashiRolls, without having it go to ArbCom (where I think they would send it back to the community anyway). It's going to be contentious, but I wanted to just applaud you for stepping up and closing the discussion. RickinBaltimore ( talk) 17:51, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
MastCell you’ve barely made 50 edits in 9 months, and 500 in the last two years. Sashi has been actively contributing good content up until this indef, creating and building many articles. If you give a clean slate for everything related to their highlighting of a former admin socking to avoid a topic ban you’ve got very slim pickings for an indef. That stuff was brought up in nearly every notice board report about Sashi, and nobody I can see has ever once acknowledged Sashi was right about that and they were wrong. Normally protecting the project from socks is considered a good thing. But since you’ve been inactive for so long I’m willing to understand you probably didn’t know all the details. Mr Ernie ( talk) 18:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
and I knew you would appreciate it. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:37, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi MastCell,
You recently closed a
ANI against SashiRolls as a community siteban, but go on to say that This ban can, of course, be appealed to the Arbitration Committee
. Unless there's some private evidence I'm not aware of in play (in which case it should never have got there),
scope point 2 (and the note) in ArbPol doesn't give them the right to hear appeals to CBANs. Indeed, it's that which made the Community CBAN Edgar after his socking was discovered, despite an ARBCOM ban, because they wanted to ensure they also needed to sign off any appeal.
Could you clarify? Am I missing something? Nosebagbear ( talk) 20:17, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#SashiRolls squashed and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.
Thanks, -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 11:13, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
After seeing that one ( [39]) and realizing that I had already interpreted the code without a second thought—there should be! Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, MastCell. I'm an arbitration clerk, which means I help manage and administer the arbitration process (on behalf of the committee). Thank you for making a statement in an arbitration request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case. However, we ask all participants and commentators to limit the size of their initial statements to 500 words. Your statement significantly exceeds this limit. Please reduce the length of your statement when you are next online. If the case is accepted, you will have the opportunity to present more evidence; in any event, concise, factual statements are much more likely to be understood and to influence the decisions of the arbitrators.
Requests for extensions of the word limit may be made either in your statement or by email to the Committee through this link or arbcom-enwikimedia.org if email is not available through your account.
For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 00:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for this (I replied there). I do really appreciate it:)
I thought you and some of your lurkers might find these sources interesting, enlightening, blasphemous, other...
Ronald Reagan
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Was Bill Clinton a racist?
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Conservatism
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Enjoy, — ArtifexMayhem ( talk) 00:54, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
It's become evident to me that a lot of people have a simplistic view in which people who say or do racist things are inherently Bad People. Because they know that Ronald Reagan (or Bill Clinton) was a Good Person, he therefore could not have said or done racist things. When confronted with inconvenient truths (like Reagan's casual use of racial slurs), the resulting cognitive dissonance is impressive to behold.
Less-sophisticated editors seem to resolve it with simple denial—as in the threads where Atsme and others simply refuse to acknowledge the harmfulness of even the most blatant racial slurs. More-sophisticated editors are able to operationalize Wikipedia policy to resolve the dissonance; you can see this at Talk:Ronald Reagan, where they invoke WP:UNDUE to suppress uncomfortable, if well-documented, items. Of course, it's objectively laughable as a matter of policy—the Reagan article is chock-full of insubstantial mythopoeic fluff, so the sudden invocation of WP:UNDUE in this one instance is clearly selective and opportunistic, but it's a fig leaf at least.
There's a real reluctance to acknowledge any sort of nuance or complexity. In the real world, people are capable of good and bad, sometimes simultaneously. A politician can be personally racist while advancing policies that promote racial equity (Lyndon B. Johnson and Truman come to mind); they may be privately without evident bias but promote public policies that worsen structural racism and inequality, or they may be both privately racist and publicly exploitative of racism. The evolution of leaders' racial views is also interesting—Truman's early and mid-life letters were full of casual racism, but in his later Presidency he aggressively championed civil rights ( [40]). Conversely, Reagan appears to have been relatively progressive with regard to racial issues early in his life, but evolved to exploit racism deftly as a politician (and, evidently, acquired privately racist views as well).
Those transformations didn't happen in a vacuum; they reflect societal changes as well as shifts in what was politically expedient and/or possible. Anyhow, these are all extremely relevant aspects of these leaders' biographies, and of our national history—which continue to have substantial effects on day-to-day life today—as well as subjects of extensive scholarly inquiry. So when our biographies completely ignore the topic—or when editors obstruct mention of it—then we're failing our fundamental responsibility as a project.
Anyhow—that is a long way of saying thank you for posting these thought-provoking items. MastCell Talk 18:17, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
It's also a self-fulfilling prophecy: if we as a community, and culture, loudly deny, minimize, and dismiss obvious racial context, then we are effectively silencing and excluding people who value open and thoughtful consideration of those subjects—and people for whom these issues are intensely personal and existential, and not just matters of bloodless intellectual debate. The lack of diversity then reinforces the echo chamber. It's about who gets a voice here, and the thread on Jimbo's talkpage made that abundantly clear.
I don't think the problem is a lack of scholarship, although it is encouraging to see the proliferation of (and renewed interest in) academic work on the subject. There have already been entire scholarly books written on race and politics, but we don't have the will or interest as a community to incorporate them—and in fact we reflexively reject scholarship on the topic because it offends our sensibilities. But then, I've been doing this for more than a decade and I have a lot of blisters (to use your analogy). I got started here because I was concerned that Wikipedia was a powerful vehicle for the spread of medical misinformation. I never considered I'd live in a world where the primary vector of medical misinformation was the President of the United States. It's led me to re-evaluate and refocus some of my efforts to ensure I'm spending my time and money (after all, time is money) in a way that serves my values and principles most effectively. MastCell Talk 17:11, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
See: ban review at an (courtesy ping to JzG who started it. Think he probably forgot to notify. Also Guy, I mean that in a good faith way, not snarky. The internet sucks on conveying meaning through text 😊) TonyBallioni ( talk) 23:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
re: The ban discussion. Not that I felt it was aimed at me (my post was well above yours), but just wanted to voice my thoughts somewhere. Regarding the "procedure-obsessed" comment. Personally I couldn't care any less about the whole thing (even if I tried). My point was that in my 10+ years here - I have seen SO SO many discussions turn on "procedure." A ban and an indef block are not the same things. A 4th revert after 24 hours and 10 minutes isn't violating policy. I could go on, but I'm sure you've seen your share of this yourself. My point was mainly that "The AN ban proposal was closed, and closed properly. It was appealed to ACom who declined to overturn it" To me, that is case closed.
Some folks may say that the "re-open" thread is a disruption (I've seen far less called that). I don't think it is, I'm just saying some might. I've seen people railroaded off the site (IMO), and I'm sure you've felt that way somewhere along the line yourself. I've seen plenty of people ganged up on to the point of becoming ... uncooperative(?), or downright belligerent. Still - once something hits any of the "boards", then "best behavior" should be a the phrase of the day. Anyone who's been around the block more than once knows that editing another editors post is bright red line.
Anyway - I know my post might seem a bit anal to some, but given the history of wiki discussions, yes I did note a "a matter of procedure" in my oppose. Is there a difference between "open" and "re-open" - not really. Was it a bit obsessive? IDK - maybe. But given some of the things I've seen on wiki - I'd post the same again. Now that I got all that out: Hope you have a great day/evening. Cheers and Best always MastCell. — Ched ( talk) 20:48, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
At first, I couldn't pinpoint where it all went to hell in a hand basket on Jimmy's TP wherein you ended-up with the wrong impression of what I said...but I'm pretty sure I've figured it out. Racism is a touchy subject which is why I asked you to not make it personal. Now that I'm not under pressure, I can see things a bit more clearly. Perhaps if I had not been approached in such a forceful and intimidating manner by 2 admins, I would have responded differently. I do know that your perception of me has been wrong for quite some time, and that you have a very strong POV which makes communicating with you rather difficult. I'm just going to be here long enough to clear the air regarding my attempt to bring context into the discussion when I brought up the various terms and how they were used back in the day.
It was an era in our history when racism was more accepted by white society, and racial slurs were used more freely. I strongly believed then, as I do now, that it was wrong. I was not denying that Reagan's comment was a racial slur, which is what you perceived my position to be. I will assume my proper share of the blame for lacking clarity in that regard, but I'm asking you to try to be a little more attuned to what I, as a female editor, was feeling by your aggressive approach. There were alot of thoughts going through my head while trying to recall some of the history of the 60s & 70s. It was my intention to present intelligible context relative to Reagan's racial slur. My thought process stems from my early childhood in Providence, RI where I was born. My maternal grandmother was an Italian immigrant who didn't speak English, and my paternal grandparents were Irish immigrants, so we had our own battles to fight against prejudice within our own family. I was raised by the Italian side, and the words that were commonly used against us were dego, wop, hike, and guinea. It was a shameful time in American history, and a time when little kids were chanting " Sticks and stones". The school I attended was not segregated so I was not exposed to any racism against Blacks...at least, not until my family moved to Texas where I was not only busy defending against the Italian slurs, I was a target of Yankee, go home! When Mom registered us in school, I was advanced enough to be in the 5th grade instead of 1st, so I got bullied early on. My parents eventually saw that it wasn't a good idea, so I was moved into the 3rd grade, still the youngest and the shortest in my class. The Southern Democrats on our block would not allow their kids to play with us. My closest friends and allies were the Black kids who lived in Sunnyside across the railroad tracks, which is where I hung out. They accepted this little Yankee wop with her Bostonish accent as one of their own. I spent more time there with my best friend, Mathis and his family, than I did my own. Yes, MastCell, I know bigotry and racism very well...and while I'm typing this response to you, tears are falling as I relive those memories, and why I didn't want you to make it personal. I grew up a scrappy, defensive Tomboy who fought tooth & nail against the bigots; add to that, the fights I fought defending my handicapped sister from the bullies. I've had cigarette ashes flipped on me by the older girls on the bus ride home from school, I had soda poured over me, and was punched in the face for objecting to it. After that, I chose to walk home instead of riding the bus. As I got older, I learned how to defend myself against the bullies, and I sure as hell don't want to have to do it on WP.
But I digress, the bottomline is that I should have provided a more succinct explanation instead of assuming my intent would be understood. Of course I don't condone what Reagan said, but what I did not volunteer to do as a WP editor was to RGW. My time here is a special time in my day where I can become totally absorbed in my role as a pragmatic editor with a focus on getting the article right per our PAGs. I did not start that thread at Jimmy's TP with a focus on Reagan, but after you diverted my attention to it, I was trying to adjust by focusing on context and the events that might have provoked such an insensitive racial slur from a president, and it had all the makings of frustration. Most southern schools by that time had been integrated, the hippy era had waned, but communism was on the rise, Cambodia was in the news, and the USSR had nukes. And I hope that I've clarified my position to your satisfaction. Have a good evening, and happy editing! Atsme Talk 📧 23:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Since I have defended MastCell other places, I think it's appropriate to offer a better explanation of the sequence of events that led up to all this clusterf###. Let's examine that actual thread, and I'll add my commentary in bold between each comment to see what derailed it and caused the discussion to go downhill:
From: User talk:Jimbo Wales#Scrub a dub dub
(ec) Well, MastCell...I'm old enough to remember the phrase barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and it came with no labels unlike all the politically motivated labels attached to people today. I remember the Reagan years well, and a time when it wasn't at all unusual for a mom to lovingly tell her rambunctious kids to stop running around barefoot, to go put shoes on and stop acting like "little monkeys" - no labels of racism attached. In fact, I'd wager that it's still said today with no racist connotation. And then there's the 500lb gorilla picture we use on WP today, with no racist label whatsoever, and Trump being compared to and having the intelligence of an orangutan but that isn't racist. Nope - what WP considers racist is Reagan's private recorded phone conversation, and a phrase he used to express his frustration - not about the people necessarily, but about the country in what I would consider the same intent as the aforemented phrases, but because he's a Republican, his words are automatically labeled racist. We censored Biden's "you ain't black" gaffe, and whitewashed his article of notable criticisms while we pretend it's compliant with NPOV. Right - don't pay any mind to mainstream media's criticism - nothing to worry about - remember, WP is too big to fail. Atsme Talk 📧 23:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
Valjean: I wasn't sure what was really meant by that whole comment.
- So when Reagan said, of a group of African diplomats: "To see those monkeys from those African countries, damn them...They are still uncomfortable wearing shoes"... you don't see anything racist in that? You find that comparable to a mom lovingly scolding her children? I mean, I know you just said all of that, but I want to make sure I understand. MastCell Talk 23:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: MastCell also wondered, and asked for clarification. This is a discussion, and asking for clarification is perfectly normal and proper. It is not personalization.
- MastCell, do not make it personal. The only thing you need to understand where I'm concerned has nothing to do with my personal beliefs or yours, and everything to do with our understanding of and compliance with NPOV as it relates to WP and the Reagan article. Since you brought up the "concerted effort" at the Reagan article, I will add that Levivich broke it down quite well and it aligns with my understanding of WP:PAG. UNDUE is the common denominator, but his explanation was much better than mine. Atsme Talk 📧 16:43, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: No, it was not making it personal. It was a valid question that should have been answered. The refusal to answer opened the door for what followed. It provided kindling, which was immediately personalized and lit on fire by PackMecEng.
- I suggest that Atsme think carefully before answering MastCell's question, and then to answer it with an acknowledgment of the pernicious results of the racism that permeates our society. Trivializing is not helpful. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:58, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: That was good advice, because it did appear that Atsme was trivializing racism.
- I was wondering when this would devolve into subtle accusations of racism against fellow editors. Glad to see I wasn't disappointed I suppose. Don't be that guy. PackMecEng (talk) 04:04, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: Now PackMecEng does make it personal with a directly false accusation against Cullen328. Later others make it even more direct and repeat it about MastCell. (PackMecEng is currently blocked for good reason.)
- I guess that I do not agree with you, PackMecEng, that me pointing out a comparison that trivializes racism is somehow equivalent to an accusation of racism against a colleague. I was commenting on the content of the comment rather than the character of the editor. I hope that I have made the distinction clear. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:35, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: Exactly. Asking a reasonable question is not an accusation of racism. Editors should always reply properly and civilly to requests for clarification.
- No, you did not. I need you to explain that you are not making such a heinous implication because from what I can tell you made no distinction. PackMecEng (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: The failure to AGF gets even more egregious. This ended up with lots of piling on and PAs against MastCell, and there is now a long list of diffs that would make her and PackMecEng look very bad at AE. I hope that doesn't become necessary. These attacks must stop and be retracted.
- I have made my point and clarified. Now it is time for other voices to comment. I will certainly take criticism by other productive editors very seriously. Nothing I said was heinous if you read my words accurately as written. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC) (reply)
- Valjean: She should have AGF. She didn't. Instead, she added more fuel to the fire she had built out of the kindling created by Atsme's refusal to answer a reasonable question.
I hope that at least explains my impression of the situation, and why I think it's an egregious PA to attack MastCell with the false accusation that they ever accused anybody of racism.
I really appreciated Atsme's explanation of her background above, and I don't think she's any more racist than the rest of us who grew up in the '60s. The questions are whether white fragility is at play here, and whether she is an active anti-racist? We all have racism in us. Enlightened racists admit they have racism in them and recognize the racism they have inherited from growing up in racist American society. The unenlightened ones deny it and either trivialize it or don't actively oppose it enough, and a good answer to MastCell's question could have cleared up those questions and left Atsme with good support for her anti-racist stance. That stance cannot be assumed without clear statements from her. -- Valjean ( talk) 15:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
The AN discussion is too bloated, Reply-Link doesn't work and this is veering off topic anyway so I thought I'd come here direct. I know I am not articulating my view on SR very coherently. Part of my problem is that I think the result is correct (as in: I personally find SR tiresome in the extreme) but I have a terrible tendency to over-scrutinise results I want, in case it's my bias running away with me. I think the call on the outcome can be made more than one way. You are correct in what you say, but so are others: there was a lot of soft sentiment expressed for a less restrictive solution. My gut feel is that more time might have introduced more clarity, and this would contribute meaningfully to the perceived fairness of the ban. The AN discussion itself shows sharply divided opinion on the merits. So: I think this is one of those cases where people will hate the outcome whatever, and you were brave and IMO correct, as usual, but in a way that has unfortunately given ammunition to a certain faction. This is not your fault, it is a weakness with our processes - at the core of which IMO is our inability to handle intractable content disputes other than by banning people as they escalate. Anyway, I don't want to fall out with you. Guy ( help!) 07:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I think we agree that leaving the thread open would almost certainly not have changed the outcome. I understand your point that more time might have reduced the attack surface for people who disagree with the close, but I don't really buy that. As I said, to me these arguments boil down to saying that the discussion should have run for arbitrary time x rather than arbitrary time y. I've found that it's best to do what you think is right and accept good-faith criticism for it, but not to worry about or cater to the subset of congenitally querulous types who, as you say, will hate the outcome whatever it is.
Anyhow—I appreciate your feedback here, and elsewhere, and don't worry about offending me. There are things that I think are worth fighting for and about, and for which I'd have a hard time forgiving someone, but disagreeing about a noticeboard close on Wikipedia isn't remotely one of them. Stay well out there, and be sure to wear a mask even if the leader of your country tries to tell you that Covid-19 is a hoax or "just the flu"... MastCell Talk 20:10, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I regret that we had that disagreement yesterday, so I want to clarify some of the things that I said. When I talked about it being a political dispute, I actually wasn't thinking about you when I said it. I was reacting to the group of editors who were going back-and-forth at each other, with stuff like "bro" and the like. As I had said a couple of times before that, I could very well see how you and other editors would see what she said the way that you do, and that it would have been my own reaction as well. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 17:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
On the broader topic, I am a lot less willing than I used to be to overlook misinformation on this platform. I've previously tried my best to ignore it (per the first few reminders-to-self here), but the last 4 years—and the last 5 months in particular—have been object lessons in the dangers of ignoring or underestimating the power of unchecked misinformation. Without going into specifics, in the last several months I have literally watched people die because of politically motivated misinformation. So now, when I see people slipping off-handed, off-topic partisan falsehoods into discussions here, I'm not willing to just let them slide to the extent that I used to be. Falsehoods gain strength from unopposed repetition, and the whole thing is a lot less bloodless and academic for me than it used to be.
I think you know what I mean. There are people who literally cannot participate in a talk-page discussion without interlarding tangential partisan talking points about the "Russia hoax", or mooting bespoke QAnon-style conspiracy theories, or undermining reliable sources like the Post as no better than propaganda. The cumulative effect of this unchecked assault on objective reality is dispiriting, particularly on a project ostensibly dedicated to summarizing human knowledge and serving as a source of reliable information.
As to the specific event in question, I will never get used to people lying to my face. My understanding of civility has very little to do with the use of profanity or even name-calling (I've been called every name in the book here, and rarely if ever made anything of it)—to me, civility starts with honest and forthright engagement. I can laugh off being called an asshole, but I can't laugh it off when someone lies to me and then tries to convince me I'm crazy for noticing their dishonesty.
I'm not going to rehash the details, but my impression is that it's pretty uncomfortable for people to acknowledge that someone would simply tell a blatant lie, and much easier and less distressing to accept the polite, face-saving fiction that it was all simply a mix-up or misunderstanding. Fine. But fundamentally, this project is about honesty—about being honest with our readers and presenting them with accurate, reliable information. The fact that people can relentlessly push misinformation, lie about it, and then cloak themselves in the mantle of site policy is messed up, and I can't pretend not to be bothered and alarmed by it. We're witnessing an organized effort to rewrite recent history in real time, and to the extent that Wikipedians are serving as foot soldiers in that effort, we have a problem—one that our deep-seated misconceptions about neutrality and our communal commitment to lazy false equivalence have left us ill-equipped to address. MastCell Talk 18:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Seven years! |
---|
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Not sure it's Jimbo's fault for the culture here (gestures broadly at real world). -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 00:34, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Happy holidays | ||
Dear MastCell, For you and all your loved ones, "Let there be mercy".
|
Hi MastCell, Hope you are keeping well and safe. If you have time, could you look at the "Editorials and comments" section on the MEDRS talk page. Some proposals have been made concerning the different kinds of articles in a journal and have IMO become a bit unstuck over "peer review", as well as containing language/style unsuitable for a content guideline. It could do with some more input from someone familiar with the academic process, and you are an old-hand when it comes to writing MEDRS. And are there any other editors with experience here who could improve the guideline in that area. -- Colin° Talk 10:47, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
If the Wikipedia community were a person, he (yes, of course, he) would be a 20-something techbro whose parents pay his rent, who "doesn't see color", who thinks deep down that people are poor or homeless because they're too lazy to learn to code (but wouldn't say so out loud because of a fear of what he would define as "cancel culture"), who has no problem with neo-Nazis editi g here (because we can't punish people for having unpopular opinions!), and who defines "civility" as a mandate to treat right-wing extremists with zipties, tasers, and "Camp Auschwitz" sweatshirts as one valid side of a bilateral civic discourse.
All of that is a long way of saying that I'm not sure I'm up for a WP:MEDRS discussion. Sadly, I can't think offhand of any other active editors who work in academic medicine, although I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. Most of us have been chased off or just left over the years, for the usual variety of reasons. MastCell Talk 18:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello MastCell. I'm troubled by this comment, "Obviously the content isn't stable if I reverted some of it.". It sounds like a glib denial of several editors' clearly expressed concerns about recent edits. Several users have communicated with this user in the past to ask him to moderate his removals of stable text and references. I'm reluctant to bring this to AE, but it has become a serious drain on the time and attention of other editors, and it's undermining a lot of hard work on this article over several years. Any help would be appreciated. SPECIFICO talk 15:44, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link) But note that JMIR Preprints is a repository for manuscripts that are undergoing or will undergo peer review, not a peer-reviewed publication in its own right).SPECIFICO, I don't recall prior interactions with Onetwothreeip, so I can't speak to whether there are ongoing issues. I agree that the comment you mention is a bit concerning. And I notice that there have been recurring issues with this editor playing down Trump's role in the Covid-19 pandemic, and substituting confusingly worded euphemisms for straightforward language on the topic. In my experience, WP:AE doesn't do well with these sorts of cases, but if you feel there is sufficient evidence of a pattern then that is probably your best bet. For the reasons described one thread up, I don't really have the time or wherewithal to pursue these kinds of things, and frankly the degree of enabling and intentional blindness toward prolific, long-term editors who use this site as a platform for dangerous QAnon-adjacent right-wing extremist tropes doesn't inspire me with any confidence that more subtle cases will be dealt with. MastCell Talk 18:37, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
y Thank you so much for your reply and I totally understand your exhaustion. I worked when HIV was killing so many innocent, young, beautiful, people. It was just awful. Old people, sure, diabetics, etc., sure, but so many others just because they happened to be gay. Or others who had needed blood transfusions, or even prostitutes who I learned as I cared for them are just as remarkable as you or I, etc. Really it was just awful, but nothing compared to this. With HIC we could be real, caring, people, not just like a bunch of Martians in space suits. So be sure MastCell, I am not asking anything of you. But I am going to ping Smallbones to see this discussion. Best, Gandy Gandydancer ( talk) 21:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Hey MastCell, it looks like you've got some user scripts that have bare javascript global wg-style variables. These are
phab:T72470 deprecated, and while I don't think there's a timeline for their removal, it's been that way for a while. It's usually a straightforward fix, all uses need to use mw.config.get
, such as converting wgTitle
to mw.config.get('wgTitle')
. There's some more info at
mw:ResourceLoader/Migration guide (users)#Global wg variables. They are:
They're old, so not sure if you still want them; that first one you restored to test something a few years ago. I can take care of cleaning them up for you if you like, just let me know! ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 19:37, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello. I re-created the above page you deleted. It has new content and sources. I will be adding illustrations ere long. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 21:42, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
I keep going back to this article and reading the highlighted bit. I thought it might interest you and your talk-page stalkers:
The worst thing about being weird is the loneliness. The loneliness doesn’t only or even mostly come from rejection. This is what I assumed, childishly, as a child, and that is why I thought that if genius bought me tolerance, it would make me happy. When the switch flips to “brave and independent,” and the rules get relaxed, one doesn’t magically find oneself surrounded by people with whom one experiences a real connection. Real connection requires ethical community, and ethical community requires shared rules—not the exemption from them.
Here’s the thing about tolerance: it was never meant to be an end point. Tolerance and flexibility are improvements over rejection as a way of managing the initial encounter with difference. If some people experience the customs and habits that come easily or naturally to others as arbitrary, coercive, alien or just plain confusing—and yes, some of us are like this—the answer isn’t to let us have our own way. That’s not kindness, it’s ostracism by another name. We don’t want to go off on our own. We don’t want to be left alone. No one wants to be alone.
The problem is that any steps taken beyond tolerance will be frustrating and unpleasant, because we are, in fact, hard to coordinate with. These attempts will expose the underlying issue, which is not one of ill intentions or bad guys in need of reforming. The difficulty that drove the retreat to tolerance in the first place isn’t a product of the narrow-mindedness one person could turn off, or the cooperativeness another could turn on. There is something there, something in the way, something that actually matters to the human attempt to get along. There are differences that constitute obstacles to someone’s integration into an ethical community that are no one’s fault and cannot be willed away, and there is no recipe for how to overcome them. It is easier to tolerate people than to acknowledge this; and it’s easier to acquiesce in being tolerated and supported, rather than fighting for true connection. Tolerance is an equilibrium born of exhaustion and lowered expectations.
I relate it to some of the difficulties we have as a community. The connection feels satisfying to me, but her prognosis is discouraging. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 03:41, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
You stop using me as an example of a racist editor, and I don't take you to ANI. Deal? Levivich harass/ hound 22:46, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
If you want to have a grown-up conversation, then start by engaging with what you and I actually said, and drop the performative bluster—it's not convincing anyway. If you're just here because you're angry about being quoted accurately, then please see the reply given in Arkell v. Pressdram. MastCell Talk 10:34, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I disagree with MastCell's characterization of "lynching" as a "racially charged" word. Lynching doesn't just refer to lynchings of blacks in the US. Accusing someone of lynching doesn't mean you're accusing them of being racist, but rather of "mob justice". It's not a nice thing to accuse your colleagues of, but it's not an accusation of racism.I still don't think that saying "they're lynching me!" is calling other people racist. It doesn't make me racist to have that viewpoint. It doesn't harm anyone for me to express that viewpoint. Levivich harass/ hound 19:44, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
It's not a nice thing to accuse your colleagues of, but it's not an accusation of racism.In Special:Diff/1006105578, MastCell linked to my comment and described it as me saying there was "nothing "racially charged" about the term "lynching"" and described me as "...these aren't random passing trolls. These are established editors. This is our community." I guess it's nice to know that I'm not a random troll, but an established one ;-) Levivich harass/ hound 19:57, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Interesting topic, serendipitously I've just been reading How should we address Charles Darwin's complicated legacy? | Science | The Observer, by the author of How to Argue With a Racist 9781474611251 by Adam Rutherford. Which looks useful. . . dave souza, talk 23:38, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Tryptofish summed up my view very concisely; I am not interested in labeling you, or anyone, a "racist", but I am interested in the ways in which we as a community approach racially-charged issues. Quibbling about whether the term "lynching" is racially charged, in the course of an unrelated discussion, is in itself perhaps relatively minor, but small things like this can add up to an environment which impedes our retention of editors of color, or inhibits them from participating here in the first place. Likewise, it sets the Overton window for what sorts of discussions are possible here. If I have to spend all my energy convincing you that "lynching" is racially-charged term (something which, despite reams of text, I still think you've declined to acknowledge), then there's not much hope of having more any more serious, nuanced discussion of race-related issues.
Sluzzelin, thank you for your comments here and elsewhere. It's not my intent to upset Levivich, or anyone else. But at the same time, it is probably impossible to have a serious conversation about these issues without making people uncomfortable on some level, myself included. And it is certainly uncomfortable to raise these issues; I've been dogpiled pretty consistently (if Jimbo hadn't said something, I have no doubt people would still be defending BobK's "good Nazis should be welcome here" attitude even now), threatened with blocks and the Code of Conduct, and so on. But I don't think it's healthy to prioritize the avoidance of discomfort for a subset of existing editors to the extent that we implicitly condone things that make a much larger, but less vocal, group of people uncomfortable.
I guess that's a long way of saying that I haven't, and won't, go out of my way to quote Levivich or anyone else to cause them distress, but I also don't view the fact that these issues are distressing as sufficient reason for me to stop addressing them. And, again, there is no way to address an issue on Wikipedia without providing diffs, which, in turn, requires highlighting specific comments by specific people.
I'm sure there are other aspects of this thread that I've forgotten to touch on, so if that's the case I'm open to further discussion. Thank you to all of you, Levivich included, for your openness and willingness to talk about these issues here. MastCell Talk 20:58, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
When you use <p>
in talk threads (I do this, too, and encourage it), please close it with </p>
, or it boogers the edit-mode syntax highlighter (the one available under Preferences, anyway). Another option is using {{
pb}}
instead of <p>
. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 21:22, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
You restored challenged edits that were removed from the lead of the subject article because such inclusion is noncompliant with WP:GUILT, WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. There is an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Matthew_Whitaker,_Ronald_Mallett,_WP:GUILT. Please provide your input at that noticeboard. Atsme 💬 📧 19:05, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
CommanderWaterford ( talk) 07:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Not bad! Here's to another year of adminship, another year in which
I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
Of course, as Thomas Aquinas said, it's better to burn out than to fade away. (Or maybe that was Neil Young). And I'm managing to do both! Another year above the roses... :) MastCell Talk 05:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
We've had a year of protests. It's natural to talk about them in the same conversation, and it is not inevitably a "right wing talking point" to do so, and IMO it's not helpful to jump straight to that, and I object to the implication you're making about me.
To be crystal clear, I think what happened at the Capitol was an insurrection, and that Trump and Giuliani incited it and should be imprisoned for treason along with the hundreds of stupid people who allowed themselves to be incited. The people who showed up with grappling equipment and other gear certainly were there to attempt a coup and as far as I'm concerned they were there to commit murder. The people who thought they were attending a protest and got caught up in the moment and broke into the building also should be charged with insurrection. But there were undoubtedly people who listened to the speeches, marched to the capitol, then decided it had gotten out of control and left. And probably some who listened to the speeches and then left because the crowd was already getting too worked up. And, yes, some BLM protests turned into looting sessions and riots. Some people attended BLM protests in order to get into fights with the other side. And because these incidents overlapped, discussing them in the same conversation makes progressives, including me, really uncomfortable because of course the insurrection can't be compared to the BLM protests that turned into riots, because in the case of the insurrection the leader of our country was the root cause of it and the immediate inciter of it. But it is absolutely not helpful to shut down such discussions because "they're right-wing talking points." Yes, right-wingers are comparing them in ridiculous ways. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the conversation at all, and in this particular case what I was comparing was the fact that not everyone in attendance was there to attempt a coup and therefore calling the idea that anyone was there to peacefully protest "mythical" was opinion, not fact. —valereee ( talk) 11:18, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
And I could not possibly agree with it more. I also find myself agreeing with your position in the thread above this one, which I read, as it touches upon the same subject. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:00, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Eight years! |
---|
I miss User:MjolnirPants, so placed it here. More memory on my talk. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 07:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I cannot tell you how much your simple "Thanks" meant to me. I am exhausted after a week of battling someone who clearly signed up for Wikipedia to influence one pet article. I felt like I was screaming into a black hole. I have been hoping another seasoned editor would jump in with support, but none came. Your kind acknowledgement let me know at least someone was listening. I hope I can return the kindness one day. God bless and happy editing! MarydaleEd ( talk) 04:13, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the link to the archival discussion. Many of the issues that have been raised in the talk page archives have not been acted upon. Would creating a future, centralized discussion about this problem elsewhere have a better result? Journalist Will Bunch (2009, Tear Down This Myth: The Right-Wing Distortion of the Reagan Legacy) describes the problem we are facing:
1. The article attempts to eliminate, whitewash or play down any references to negative things that took place during Reagan's presidency from 1981 to 1989.
2. The article awards Reagan more credit than he deserves for good things that happened while he was president, or asserts things that took place when they didn't.
3. The article whitewashes Reagan's better qualities that no longer fit the modern day conception of the right wing.
Any suggestions as to how to address this? Viriditas ( talk) 23:10, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
You were correct on that "widely" issue. My mistake. (I missed it.) Rja13ww33 ( talk) 20:22, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
A recently closed Request for Comment (RFC) reached consensus to remove Autopatrolled from the administrator user group. You may, similarly as with Edit Filter Manager, choose to self-assign this permission to yourself. This will be implemented the week of December 13th, but if you wish to self-assign you may do so now. To find out when the change has gone live or if you have any questions please visit the Administrator's Noticeboard. 20:06, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Hi!
You get this message because you are an admin on a Wikimedia wiki.
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Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.
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Thank you. / Johan (WMF)
18:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi, MastCell, in this edit you made a comment about the inability of Rfc's to overrule policy, which I very much hope is the case, as it would help in a completely different situation I'm mulling over. I'd love to be able to quote some policy shortcut on that, rather than just assert it. Do you have a link? (please mention me on reply; thanks!) Cheers, Mathglot ( talk) 09:26, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
The Barnstar of Good Humor | |
For your sarcastic essay WP:Sarcasm is really helpful. I find it kinda funny how it uses sarcasm to convey that sarcasm isn't a good idea. Good job. ― Blaze Wolf TalkBlaze Wolf#6545 16:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC) |
How are you, old friend? I hope these times are treating you well. As I indicated on the talk page, 2021 was long and dreadful for my family, and I got the call literally as I was sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner. Unexpected, as she was due to be released to home after a year at UCSF (a choice I was not happy with), but the chemo-induced diabetes was the final blow. I cannot work on that article, and I don't see that it moved in the right direction over the time I couldn't bring myself to be involved (still can't). My suggestion is that, unless you are willing and able to bring it back to its former glory, it should go to WP:FAR. Sorry to be saying hello with such a dreadful post. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:29, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
...so thought I'd say hi (while I'm still able to edit anything beyond my own talk page). Been a while. Hope you're well. No, I'm fairly sure you're not. Hope you're as well as can be expected under the circumstances, and I hope the circumstances change soon. --
Floquenbeam (
talk) 22:57, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
I think that I have found a bug in your perl. ☺ Uncle G ( talk) 05:50, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
The administrator policy has been updated with new activity requirements following a successful Request for Comment.
Beginning January 1, 2023, administrators who meet one or both of the following criteria may be desysopped for inactivity if they have:
Administrators at risk for being desysopped under these criteria will continue to be notified ahead of time. Thank you for your continued work.
22:53, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I have nominated Acute myeloid leukemia for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 04:21, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi there, MastCell! I recently posted two requests to the Douglas Leone article Talk page concerning proposed revisions. I see that you're an experienced editor who has updated the article in the past, so I'm hoping that you can take a look at what I've put together. Due to my conflict of interest (I work for Sequoia Capital) I will not make any changes to the article myself. If you have any questions or concerns, please let me know. VS for Sequoia Capital ( talk) 18:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Hey, MastCell. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the
Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! Chris Troutman ( talk) 19:40, 1 August 2022 (UTC) |
Dear MastCell,
I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Fifteen Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for fifteen years or more.
Best regards, Chris Troutman ( talk) 19:41, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee is considering an unban appeal from Lightbreather ( talk · contribs). You are being notified as you participated in the last unban discussion. You may give feedback here. For the Arbitration Committee, Barkeep49 ( talk) 15:28, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Nine years! |
---|
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 06:22, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Bishonen | tålk 08:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC).
Hello, I boldly renamed two of the parameters used in Template:Hidden begin (along with other changes). However, you are one of three people who have the template placed on a fully protected page. The parameters changed were bg1 and bg2. This means that your use of the template now has no color. To fix this simply replace any instance of "bg1=" with "titlebgcolor=" and "bg2=" with "contentbgcolor=". You can see which pages you use this template on at Category:Hidden begin with depreciated parameters, sorry for any inconvenience. Terasail [✉️] 22:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is SashiRolls requests a !ban. Thank you. — JJMC89 ( T· C) 01:09, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
I appreciated your AN comment so much that I added it here: [47]. You said that really well. Thank you for that. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:02, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
You are involved in a recently-filed request for clarification or amendment from the Arbitration Committee. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment# Amendment request: Abortion and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the Wikipedia:Arbitration guide may be of use.
Thanks, Anythingyouwant ( talk) 10:50, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
[48] I think it's been pretty much never since I saw anyone say anything positive about anything I ever did as an arb. It's... curiously appreciated. I really did try my best on that. Jclemens ( talk) 04:49, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
Hello MastCell,
The amendment request regarding the Abortion case has been declined by a majority of the active arbitrators.
For the Arbitration Committee,
~ ToBeFree (
talk) 23:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Happy Adminship | from the Birthday Committee |
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Wishing MastCell a very happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! -- -ASHEIOU (THEY/THEM • TALK) 13:04, 12 May 2023 (UTC) |
This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
Hello, I am correcting a tracked syntax error on Wikipedia called the Tidy Font bug, and have sucessfully brought it down (In User space) from about 3000 errors down to 30 in the past few months. MastCell's protected page User:MastCell/Barnstars is one of 7 remaining pages in User: space and has four signatures with this error.
When links are written in the <font>[[link]]</font> format with the color specified outside of the link, browsers don't agree on how to display the colors. Some browsers display it with the specified colors, and others default back to the standard link blue.
If you would, please change:
Proposed changes. Collapsing here to keep page tidy
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<b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">[[User:Levine2112|Levine2112]]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">[[User talk:Levine2112|discuss]]</font></sup> to [[User:Levine2112|<b style="color:996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif">Levine2112</b>]] <sup>[[User talk:Levine2112|<span style="color:#774400; font-size:x-small; padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">discuss</span>]]</sup> <i><b><font color="004000">[[User:Fyslee|Fyslee]]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">[[User talk:Fyslee|talk]]</font></b> to [[User:Fyslee|<i><b style="color:#004000">Fyslee</b></i>]] / [[User talk:Fyslee|<b style="color:#990099; font-size:x-small">talk</b>]] <b><font color="999900">[[User:Dematt|Dēmatt]]</font></b> <font color="#009900" size="1">[[User talk:Dematt|(chat)]]</font> to [[User:Dematt|<b style="color:#999900">Dēmatt</b>]] [[User talk:Dematt|<span style="color:#009900; font-size:x-small">(chat)</span>]] and '''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' to [[User:Jayen466|<b style="color:#0000FF">J</b>]][[User_Talk:Jayen466|<b style="color: #FFBF00">N</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|<b style="color:#0000FF">466</b>]] Additionally, if you are willing, these three signatures have obsolete font tags. Changing these will clear all remaining WP:LINT errors on this page. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<font color="blue">Wikidudeman</font>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> to [[User:Wikidudeman|<b style="color:blue">Wikidudeman</b>]] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> to [[User:Durova|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#009">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> [[User:Axl|<font color="#808000">'''Axl'''</font>]] <font color="#3CB371">¤</font> <small>[[User talk:Axl|<font color="#808000">[Talk]</font>]]</small> to [[User:Axl|<b style="color:#808000">Axl</b>]] <span style="color:#3CB371">¤</span> <small>[[User talk:Axl|<span style="color:#808000">[Talk]</span>]]</small> |
Full disclosure, I made this request last week here but Xaosflux declined on the basis I'd used a Protected Edit Request that created a new talk page instead of using an Admin Help request here on MastCell's existing talk page. Xaosflux has no objection to the contents of this requested change (per their reply with this discussion on Xaos' talk page), and stated that I should make this sort of request in this manner instead, so this is what I am doing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Thank you for your assistance, Zinnober9 ( talk) 21:11, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
I think your recent edit to the Kay Ivey article is quite okay, though I also think that the source itself went a bit too far in saying her ad supported "unfounded conspiracy theories that the [presidential] election was illegitimate." In politics the claim that "we were robbed" is quite common and does not necessarily imply that the actual vote count is rigged; a rigged vote count being the essence of Trump's screwball claim. Ivey, by contrast, blames vaguer, more familiar targets such as a hostile press, generalized business interests, and nasty political foes. Thus it's a stretch to say that her claims are objectively false. The woman is a little shrewder than you are giving her credit for I think. Goodtablemanners ( talk) 18:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 08:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
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