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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by The Wordsmith at 22:04, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Motion 6 ( WP:NEWBLPBAN) authorized Standard Discretionary Sanctions for BLP content. This precludes WP:INVOLVED admins from acting. The older WP:BLPSE had a similar clause.
However, it seems that this contradicts WP:BLPADMINS, which states that "Administrators may enforce the removal of clear BLP violations with page protection or by blocking the violator(s), even if they have been editing the article themselves or are in some other way involved."
In an apparent conflict between policy and Arbcom decision, which prevails? My own opinion is that involved Administrators are able to block, but not log it as a Discretionary Sanction and the block would be subject to the lower standard for reversal that we use for other blocks. There isn't a specific incident I'm thinking of, but I could see it becoming an issue in the future and would like clarification on how that might be handled. The Wordsmith Talk to me 22:04, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Darkfrog24 at 04:59, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
≠=== Statement by Darkfrog24 === I request that discussion, if any, of SMcCandlish's misconduct take place in a separate thread.
EDIT: SMcCandlish has alleged that I brought up this specific accusation as some kind of trick. I did not. You guys made it clear last time that you did not consider it your job to weigh in on every individual accusation, but I figured no one would mind if I asked you to do so on just one. I picked this accusation in particular for the reasons I gave below and because it is important to me personally, regardless of what role it did or did not play in the rest of this. It has done me considerable harm, and I don't mean to my hobbies or on-Wiki reputation. I mean harm. I'll say more if you ask me to, but I'd rather not. To address the issue of whether I thought the admins believed it, of course I did: They acted on it. It's one thing for SMcCandlish to say something extreme on some talk page and quite another for that statement to be officially endorsed and punishment meted out. The idea that anyone thinks I would do something that evil has been eating me alive. This didn't happen last winter. It started last winter and has been happening every day. If my hands are still touching the stick, it's because I'm trying to block the blows.
I'd worked with him for five and a half years at that point and did not at that time think he was a bad person. Is it that hard to believe I was worried about him?
This is first because it is necessary.
Is it Wikipedia's position that I tried to gaslight SMcCandlish?
Gaslighting is the attempt to convince someone that they're crazy using systematic psychological harassment and torture.
Here are the accusation and links cited: [1] [2] [3]. Last summer, he was acting weird, like something bad had happened off-Wiki. I asked another editor to go easy on him. I asked him (on his talk page, not in front of everyone) if he was okay. I dropped the matter immediately after reading his reply. That is not gaslighting; that is what people should do.
Why this accusation
Why this is worth ArbCom's time
In addition to the harm this has done me personally, Wikipedia is bleeding talent and the #1 reason people give for leaving is the toxic environment. The idea that editors can be punished for being nice to someone on the other side of the aisle is the second worst thing I've seen on Wikipedia. We're supposed to be a community.
If you do think that I actually did this, say so.
I come bearing zero attempts at block evasion and, per instructions at Meta-Wiki, months of meaningful contributions to other parts of project Wiki.
I have translated much of Category:Euryarchaeota into Spanish and added new content to most articles, with corresponding updates to Wikidata. Any content disputes were resolved through discussion.
As a result, I was sponsored for autoverificado status, unsolicited. ( not the same as autoconfirmation)
I've also worked at Idea Lab, participating in the June anti-harassment drive and other projects. [ I have been thanked].
I had a different text ready, but a recent conversation gave me some highly useful perspective.
Clarify: 1) I was blocked for volume, not for "talking about other users." The reason I can't figure out why you think my February post to Thryduulf violates WP:BANEX is because you don't. 2) You consider asking about how topic bans work, which I did several times, and attempting to renegotiate my topic ban, which I did once to be the same thing or at least to draw from the same well, the way some employers combine sick and vacation days but others consider them separate. Is that it?
Here's the problem, though: I was targeted by a complaint with excessive volume. "10,000 words" is not hyperbole. I did not even get to finish reading it before I was sanctioned, and when I did, I found it was heavily falsified. I don't think anyone here believes "Accusers get as much time as they want to write statements as long as they want and say whatever they want and if the accused can't handle that in days, into the trash with them" is okay. That invites abuse. There's got to be a non-disruptive place between my actions and not being allowed to climb out from under the bus.
...that place is clear guidelines for long complaints, and I am in an excellent position to be part of that solution. I've worked out some strong ideas:
I wasn't ready for a complaint twenty times the limit, and I can believe the AE admins weren't either. Over this year, there's been a growing awareness at AE that the accused shouldn't be expected to respond on the spot. Those efforts should be supported.
The source of confusion here is that the AE admins issued the ban for the reasons Thryduulf gave in February, none of which are true and some of which can be easily disproven, but the Committee upheld it for a completely different reason, discussed over email last April. Again, it looks like the issue with my actions at project MOS is closer to volume than to content, and you would consider qualitatively similar participation acceptable so long as there were less of it, per SlimVirgin and my own voluntary offer back in January (NOTE: At the time, I thought "1RR" meant "one talk page post per day.")
I request that you state this. "Darkfrog24 is topic banned for [phrase as you prefer] and nothing else." I would like it if you explicitly rejected the other accusations: "Darkfrog did not call people names, battleground, falsify ENGVAR claims, push POV..." but that's what I want. What I need is up top.
The only words needed from you, SMcCandlish are "I'm very sorry for lying and I promise never to do it again." Or even just that last part. You may leave now. You will be notified of any proceedings regarding your misconduct.
If you want proof that SMcCandlish knowingly and deliberately lied at AE, I will provide it. However, that and his other misconduct should be handled in a separate thread and appropriate venue. I am not the first person he has targeted. Frankly, it bothers me a great deal that some individuals on Wikipedia seem to care more that I called him a liar than that he lied. He's called me a liar and worse things, with no proof at all, and no one batted an eye. (And yes his statement was just under 10,000 words. 1800+ in-thread and about a 7000 linked-in portion. Even if its contents had not been grossly fabricated, its length alone made responding in the normal time frame impossible.)
As to which way the interaction ban should go, well, I didn't Wikistalk through seven years of his user history and spend months writing an eighteen-page treatise full of fabrications about him. I didn't call him slurs. I didn't speculate about his job and make fun of what I thought it was. I defended his right to hold whatever belief he wanted so long as he stopped his hostile behavior toward people who don't share them. I did not mock and bait him while he was topic-banned. And I absolutely did not say that "Are you okay" was gaslighting if he was the one who said it. He's the one who shouldn't be allowed to talk to me. But yes, if he weren't allowed to talk to or about me, that would knock out a lot of the problem at WT:MOS. Take his creepy obsession with me and shut it down.
@ Drmies: I will repeat to you my statement that I will continue to obey the topic ban while it is in force, but yes I will still seek to have it lifted either on schedule in February or at some earlier time of the committee's choosing. It is simply a matter of doing so in a way that has been established as nondisruptive—which is why the committee, community or both should establish procedures for dealing with very long complaints regardless of what else happens here. If you guys think I have to prove myself on some other part of the encyclopedia before going back to project MoS, well, I don't think that's necessary, but I'd still do it. (NOTE: I am under the impression that topic bans, including this one, are meant to be temporary.) About my ability to follow the topic ban, well, I have been reading AE threads from January through October to internalize patterns of what is and isn't allowed. I don't see why they can't just be written down at WP:TBAN, though. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 01:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
SMcCandlish speculated that I was "[only] a community college professor" and talked about how CC profs are stupid or something. I can find this or any of the diffs if necessary, but I don't think this is the right venue.
Again, this should really be addressed in its own thread, but I worked with SMcCandlish for over five years, and this is a pattern with him: Accuse the other person of doing the thing that he's doing so they look stupid if they counter-accuse. Calling names, slurs against my mental health, ignoring sources. Only difference is I called him on it first this time.
Do not let SMcCandlish confuse the issue of whether I should be unblocked. What if anything should be done about his actions is a separate issue, and it it should be handled in the right way, with diffs and enough time to read any statements made against him.
I have a concern. I've agreed to Opabinia's point a), more than once, but it looks like you guys want me to agree to something else too. I have an idea of a few things it might be but I am concerned that if I ask you "Is it this?" I will end up making some big sacrifice only to have one of you say months or years from now "I never told Darkfrog24 they had to do that. They did it on their own." I've had people do that with me before. Maybe none of you have any intention of doing that and this is just a matter of hard communication, but that is why I do not want to voice any guesses about what is required of me, regardless of whether they'd be right.
Please state explicitly, "Darkfrog24, in addition to continuing to obey the topic ban and appealing it only through official, nondisruptive channels we want you to do/not do [action]" or "Darkfrog24, we do not generally require sanctioned editors to [do this] but we are asking/telling you to do it anyway. We feel that it is what is best for this specific case."
If it is that topic-banned editors are not allowed to talk about the topic ban or their accusers, even if they do not mention the banned topic itself, then you need to talk with this guy at WT:TBAN because not everyone's on the same page.
Just so it's on record here, I did not go to Wales' talk page to crusade, as Spartaz puts it. I asked for someone to come and help us communicate. I used the word "translation." You guys think you're being clear. I think I'm being clear. Things still aren't meeting neatly. This is where someone else coming in could make a difference. I believed I was allowed to make this post because blocked editors are allowed to appeal to Wales and he is included in the request. Spartaz has told me on my talk page that I must not continue posting to Wales' talk page in this way, and I have done so.
...has produced some useful comments. @ Ca2james::
"Relitigating" includes but is not limited to talking about how this person lied, or that process was bad/unfair and could be improved, or Darkfrog disagrees with the topic ban because X, Y, Z. That limitation does not preclude them from appealing their topic ban. Instead, it means that any appeal they make must not include a discussion of any other editor's behaviour or what happened when they were banned but must focus solely on their own behaviour.
Is that it? Please confirm two things: 1) This looks like it means I'd be forbidden from saying that SMcCandlish lied at AE in January but I would still be at liberty to say "It is not true that I made bogus claims, bit the new guy, etc." should I choose to do so so long as his name is not mentioned and no case is made regarding whether he was lying or innocently mistaken, etc. 2) I am or am not forbidden from participating in discussions of how the AE process could be improved? Please confirm. It all sounds plausible to me, but I need to hear it from you.
It sounds like the motion is saying that I do not have to pretend that the accusations were true or in any way endorse them at my next appeal.
Would said appeal take place here or through the normal unblock system?
I point you toward section III above. Please confirm whether I have guessed the matter correctly. You do not agree with Thryduulf's list about the reasons for the original topic-ban. Rather you believe it is for the other reason outlined there, the volume of my participation in the debates over WP:LQ, not specific misconduct. (I have also been assuming from the beginning that I was not sanctioned based on what side of that debate I am on.) Please say either, "Yes, that is correct" or "No, that is not correct. In my/our view, you were topic-banned because of [reason]." I need to know what part of my Wikipedia MO to work on. Basically, establish the location of the goalposts, as of today. You can always change your mind later.
I would like the committee, either individually or as a body, to reject the accusation of gaslighting. It is extremely important. This is not about what SMcCandlish thought the word meant. It is about what the admins who acted on it thought I had done. This is about the meaning of the official sanction. I wasn't trying to either psychologically torture or belittle anyone. I was just being nice.
In a user talk post concurrent with this ARCA, Darkfrog24 opens with a renewal of this user's pursuit of vengeance against me: "My own case is complicated. Short version: It started when I was targeted by a liar with a grudge" [5]. Nothing has changed, and this self-defeating ARCA is not "complicated" at all, but essentially identical to the last one, in April [6]. DarkFrog24 was instructed in no uncertain terms to stop beating the dead horse of her personalized campaign against me ( Laser brain, [7], among other admonitions), and failure to do so was one of the main reasons the very narrow t-ban became a broader one, then a block, then an indef. The direct tie between abandoning this vendetta and perhaps being allowed to return to edit again was made clear, not just repeatedly at AE but also by admins at DF24's own talk page (multiple times, this is just the latest one, from June):
Now here we are again, with DF24 not asking to return to WP to work on something else, but dwelling entirely on the general topic of the topic ban, continued pursuit of a hounding effort against me that stems directly and entirely from that topic, and why everyone else is wrong. This editor is clearly not getting the point, on a long-term if not permanent basis, and equally clearly is just biding time restart the same fray. Both of these were the other major factors in the escalating series of sanctions against DF24, who pestered AE admins incessantly with an "I just don't understand" act and constant border-testing for weeks until indeffed, and resumed the same behavior when allowed to edit her user talk page again (cf. the threads I just cited from June and October).
I'm not going to respond to the litany of details in DF24's screed, just make three quick points that render the details moot:
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Also, most of DF24's post above is the user trying to appeal things that cannot be appealed until the twelve-month mark, in Feb. 2017. Only the indef was subject to a six-month review.
—
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 09:46, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Struck, as unhelpful. —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
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My aim with this statement is to find a way forward to help Darkfrog24 to move on to become a productive wikipedia editor. First, full disclosure, I'm semi-involved. I have collaborated with Darkfrog24 with a proposal for the Inspire initiative on meta, I can vouch for them as an editor with a great deal of insight who did much to help shape the proposal. I feel that they have a lot to contribute to wikipedia and it is sad to see them blocked in this way. I want to help them to move on. Also I know from conversations with them via email that they also want to move on and put this behind them as much as the rest of you.
They feel that they have a lot they could contribute to wikipedia, including special interests in the topic areas of
So how can this be moved forward? I understand that you are saying that they need to agree to certain conditions first, for the block to be removed but am not at all clear on what those are. Here is a suggestion as a starting point. Would this be agreeable to you if it is agreeable to them?
Would such an agreement suffice for lifting the block? If not, can you suggest what conditions would be sufficient? Please be specific, about what exactly you would require of Darkfrog24. I'd also appreciate being told what the reasoning is for those requirements.
Before we put it to bed I wonder if I can be permitted to say something about the gaslighting charge as well - again not in an attempt to change decisions, but rather as a way to try to promote mutual understanding here. I think it may be due to a difference in use of language. As someone from the UK, just reading the diff (I haven't asked them what they meant), I found your reactions to it bewildering. To me "slightly more than his baseline" means such things as a bad week at work, domestic issues, financial troubles or the like.
With that background the rest of the diff [30] reads to me just like them asking other editors to go easy on SMcCandlish because they may be going through a rough time at present. It suggests nothing at all about mental impairment, never mind the far more serious charge of gaslighting which SMcCandlish made in January [31]. I can't see anything in that diff, or the other diffs he supplied that remotely suggests gaslighting, when read in context. As I read it (as a reader from the UK), it is rather an attempt by Darkfrog24 to evoke sympathy towards SMcCandlish with other editors. I am sure that their only objective here since then has been to clear their own name in the records of what would seem to be a serious charge against them that hasn't been cleared. But it hasn't worked well, and it is best for both sides, I think, if the past is treated as the past and both sides begin with a fresh slate.
The aim of this post is to find a way forward that you can both agree to. It is not an attempt to influence the debate, and neither has Darkfrog24 asked me to do so. I am aware of wikipedia guidelines on WP:CANVAS. I believe that this post is in accord with those guidelines. If this post is thought to infringe them in any way, I will of course remove it.
"... may be appealed no sooner than 12 months from today (4 February 2016).... You may appeal this sanction using the process described here."
@ Opabinia regalis: and @ Drmies: and other admins, perhaps I can help draw attention to some aspects of Darkfrog24's situation? By far the most serious accusation leading to their indef topic ban is the charge of gaslighting . @ SMcClandish: writes there: [33]
"DF24 ... has repeatedly cast WP:ASPERSIONS about my mental health, ... Also, a long string of dishonesty allegations (increasing after ban) ... Can prove this habit of incivility and gaslighting is much broader, but would need length-limit"
SMcClandish has just said on Jimmy Wales's talk page that he meant it in the second sense in this online urban dictionary [34]
"A more psychological definition of gaslighting is "an increasing frequency of systematically withholding factual information from, and/or providing false information to, the victim - having the gradual effect of making them anxious, confused, and less able to trust their own memory and perception."
So Darkfrog24 has to clear their name of this charge somehow. There is nothing for them to apologize for since it's clear from the diffs that they never did any gaslighting. If SMcClandish doesn't retract the charge, can I suggest that perhaps some impartial editor or admin could investigate the matter and establish if it ever happened or not? Everything they said about lying and gaslighting, as I read it, is mainly in the interests of clearing this mark from their records, since without doing that, a future topic ban appeal would seem to be impossible. Robert Walker ( talk) 18:57, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Posting this after your new motion. If I understand you right, there has been no suggestion that they have done anything against the actual terms of either of the topic bans since their first topic ban on quotation marks was instated. So, to get the block lifted, it seems that they have to agree to something to do with personal conduct.
The indef block statement says they are blocked until they agree to stop relitigating it, but doesn't say in detail what that involves. The topic ban statements don't mention personal conduct. It is good to know that the ARE action is not an endorsement of every claim made by the filer. Do they have to appeal any of the charges made during the TBan discussion to appeal the block? The indef statement also suggests that they don't understand the terms of the TBan.
I think it would help a lot if you could draft out a more detailed statement for them to agree to which lays out
This has clearly run its course and DF is now taking his crusade to Jimbo's talk page. They have also been warned about propagating their feud with SMMcCandlish on their talk while unblocked but blown off the warning. This has gone far enough I think. Can a Clark or Arb reinstate the block or would it be OK for me to do that? Spartaz Humbug!
As I was mentioned above and since this is still open, here's my take.
Let me start by saying that I'm confused by
Darkfrog24's first question to me above: This looks like it means I'd be forbidden from saying that SMcCandlish lied at AE in January but I would still be at liberty to say "It is not true that I made bogus claims, bit the new guy, etc." should I choose to do so so long as his name is not mentioned and no case is made regarding whether he was lying or innocently mistaken, etc.
This statement appears to me to completely miss the point that the circumstances of the topic ban must not be relitigated, or mentioned, or brought up on a talk page. To answer the question: as far as I understand it, no, Darkfrog24 would not be at liberty to say that, or to talk about
SMcCandlish's behaviour without mentioning his name.
That question and Darkfrog's post on Jimbo's talk page both suggest to me that one of the reasons Darkfrog24 is continually asking for clarification is because they're hoping that someone will tell them that they can do whatever it is that they want to do; ie that they're looking for loopholes by picking out this or that part of the guidelines/sanctions/advice to follow. As an example of something they want to do, Darkfrog24 has stated that they're gathering evidence wanting to be able to post evidence against SMcCandlish
[35]. Since I expect that the evidence involves the MOS, I think that talking about collecting wanting to collect and present it might be a violation of their MOS topic ban. Both the question above and this post I diffed indicate that Darkfrog24 is trying to find a way within the sanctions to collect and present this evidence.
It has also occurred to me that Darkfrog24 is treating an appeal on Wikipedia as if it were a court appeal in the US, where the sentence (or sanction, on Wikipedia) can be thrown out on a technicality, making it worth arguing every little point to get the sanction overturned. On Wikipedia, my understanding is that an editor is sanctioned because they were found to be disruptive; sanctioning removes that editor from the situation and allows other editors to get to work. My understanding is that an appeal has one goal: to show that the sanctioned editor will no longer be disruptive in the area. Ca2james ( talk) 17:42, 2 December 2016 (UTC) (edited 21:39, 2 December 2016 (UTC))
confess to infractions that [you] did not commit to get the sanctions removed. The point I think you seem to be missing is that the behavioural issues for which you were sanctioned - a battleground mentality, personalizing disputes, not letting things go, etc - were shown by the statements and diffs from the cases, and it's my understanding that in a successful topic ban appeal you'll need to show that you're not going to behave those ways, not that you won't do those specific things. Therefore, it's my understanding that a successful topic ban appeal isn't going to involve you rebutting or refuting each and every statement in the topic ban case (ie it won't involve relitigating your topic ban). My understanding of a successful block appeal is that you'd say or show that you would abide by the topic ban.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
In the past year, Darkfrog24 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been subject to a series of Arbitration Enforcement actions under the discretionary sanctions authorized in the Article Titles and Capitalisation case. In January 2016, Darkfrog24 was topic-banned from from articles, discussions, and guidelines, explicitly including the manual of style, related to quotation marks and quotation styles, broadly interpreted, following an AE request. In February this topic ban was broadened to encompass the Manual of Style and related topics following another AE request. Later that month, she was blocked indefinitely "until they either understand the terms of the tban or agree to stop disruptively relitigating it" after a third AE request. She was unblocked to participate in an appeal to ARCA in April 2016, which was declined by the Arbitration Committee. The block was lifted again in November 2016 to permit the present ARCA appeal.
The Committee notes that Darkfrog24 disputes some elements of the original AE filings. We emphasize that imposing an AE sanction requires only that a reviewing admin finds sufficient disruption to warrant action and is not an endorsement of every individual claim that may be made by the filer. After review of the current appeal, we find that there is no evidence in favor of lifting or modifying the topic ban, and the disruptive behavior, in the form of repeated relitigation of the circumstances of the topic ban, has continued. The appeal is declined and the block will be reinstated. She may appeal again in three months (one year from the original indefinite block). She is very strongly advised to focus that appeal on her future editing interests in topics well separated from the subjects of her topic ban, and to appeal the topic ban itself only after establishing a successful record of productive contributions in other areas.
Enacted - Mini apolis 21:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Fæ at 11:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
An earlier version of this query was emailed to the Arbcom list on 25 November, I have raised it here as requested by the committee.
Dear Arbcom,
I have been interpreting the remaining restrictions on my account[1], in particular "editing BLPs relating to sexuality, broadly construed" as applying to BLP articles in the article namespace, and excluding the LGBT+ studies discussion group, being part of the Wikipedia/Wikipedia Talk namespace, which I have contributed to several times in the past few years (as an example to the LGBT studies guidelines), or other LGBT+ related discussions in talk namespace which may refer to biographies but are not edits in main/article namespace. In addition I have created the BDP for Ramchandra Siras, being notable for the legal case Siras fought in India against his being penalised as a result of being homosexual, and continued my Commons projects almost all of which are post AD 1000 works.
Is my interpretation okay? I ask as a result of the request on 25 November, to help another contributor by setting up a proposed change to the article for the writer Milo Yiannopoulos, controversial for their anti-trans statements. Though contributing on analysing reliable sources using my LexisNexis research access, I neither made the proposal to change the article text, nor am I in any dispute with anyone, nor do I intend to edit the article. My objective was to help with the process for gaining a consensus and no more than that.[2][3] It has only occurred to me on reflection that being involved in the details, may be an issue in the context of the outstanding Arbcom restrictions from March 2013.
If I am astray and should be avoiding these discussions, in addition to not editing BLPs relating to sexuality, please do advise. My apologies if I have misunderstood how the restrictions were intended to work. As a precaution I'll avoid making any further comment on-wiki for the above proposal on the presumption that it may be an issue. I regret doing anything that may be perceived as going close to the boundaries of the Arbcom restriction, as I am planning on making a more properly thought out amendment request in a few months time, with the intention of giving more freedom to engage on Wikipedia with the results of positive content projects I am directly involved with, like m:Grants:Project/Rapid/LGBT/Wiki Loves Pride Featured Picture drive 2016, and would not want a thoughtless mistake to blot my copybook with the Committee before then.
Thank you, Fæ ( talk) 11:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Respected Arbs,
I am the editor who made the request for assistance in setting up an RfC or similar structured discussion as referred to by
Fæ, above. I was not aware of the restrictions when I made the request, and have only become aware of them as a result of this clarification request; I would not have made the request had I been so aware. I wish to express my appreciation of & gratitude for Fæ's assistance, and for their calm and reasoned input into the discussion which provoked my request.
Should the committee decide that the creation of the article Talk page discussion is within the scope of the restrictions, I would implore them to take no further action regarding it; I firmly believe that the action was taken entirely in good faith, and with intent to improve the encyclopedia.
Separate to the question of Fæ's action in light of the restrictions, I would, however, express my grave concerns with the use of WikiProjects to hold "off-page discussions" on the content of individual articles. This is firmly outside the goals and scope of this, or any other WikiProject, and intersects poorly with WP:CANVASS, WP:TAGTEAM/WP:GANG. I request the committee to confirm that such discussions should take place on the Talk pages of the articles involved; augmented by discussion at the various noticeboards (NPOVN, RSN, BLPN, etc), as required.
Thanks in advance for your consideration on this matter. -
Ryk72
'c.s.n.s.' 11:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Fæ's restriction currently reads: "Fæ is topic banned from editing BLPs relating to sexuality, broadly construed.". I encourage the Committee to revise that to one of the following options to clarify the intent:
I do not (at present) have a preference between the options. Thryduulf ( talk) 17:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
The other restrictions, "Fæ is topic banned from images relating to sexuality, broadly construed." and it's loosening amendment "Notwithstanding the existing restrictions on his editing, Fæ is permitted to edit regarding images of sexuality in ancient and medieval times, up to A.D. 1000. This permission may be withdrawn at any time by further motion of this Committee." and those relating to automated editing, all seem (to me at least) to clearly apply in all namespaces and I don't think clarification of those is needed, but appending the sentence "This restriction applies to all namespaces." would I think be sufficient if desired. Thryduulf ( talk) 18:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Dear Arbcom, several years have passed since any edits that this topic ban was based on. Does this topic ban serve any ongoing purpose? I rather think Wikipedia would benefit if you simply removed the restrictions on Fæ. Ϣere SpielChequers 20:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
First a disclosure. Fae and I do not get on. Anyone with any long standing knowledge of our interactions can attest to that.
That said, the behaviour sanctioned was a wiki aeon ago. These restrictions no longer serve a purpose and doubt fae would even want to repeat the behaviours that cost him dear now. Policy on blp is much clearer and easier to enforce these days. There is no harm in lifting fae's restrictions.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Remedy 5: Fæ banned (March 2013) in which Fae was unblocked with the conditions that he was topic banned from editing BLPs relating to sexuality, broadly construed as well as topic banned from images relating to sexuality, broadly construed is suspended for a period of six months. During the period of suspension, this restriction may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator as an arbitration enforcement action should Fæ fail to adhere to Wikipedia editing standards in these areas, broadly construed. Appeal of such a reinstatement would follow the normal arbitration enforcement appeals process. After six months from the date this motion is enacted, if the restriction has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the restriction will automatically lapse.
Enacted - Mini apolis 22:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by BU Rob13 at 05:49, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
It appears that the discretionary sanctions in this topic area are no longer necessary. The last application of discretionary sanctions in this topic area occurred on October 4, 2014, over two years ago ( see log). Additionally, a review of the pages most affected by the dispute that generated the original case reveals no disruption above the level expected of a reasonably "mainstream" article. For instance, Ludwig von Mises Institute was central to the case, but the article history shows only common vandalism/removal of sourced information over the past two years. The rate of disruption there wouldn't even be high enough to justify semi-protection. The community can handle this topic area without an arbitration remedy at this time. ~ Rob13 Talk 05:49, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Every so often, it becomes reasonable to terminate sanctions that are no longer necessary,
For this motion there are 12 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by BU Rob13 at 03:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Continuing with the theme of cleaning up old DS before the new year, this DS has only been applied twice since it first passed in December 2014, and only to establish interaction bans that arguably could have been handled by the community. The latest application of DS was in April 2015. Based on that alone, I believe the topic bans and other remedies in this case were sufficient to handle disruption in this topic area, but I also noticed that the defined topic area here strongly overlaps with Gamergate. Discretionary sanctions in this case cover "any page relating to or any edit about: (i) the Gender Gap Task Force; (ii) the gender disparity among Wikipedians; and (iii) any process or discussion relating to these topics, all broadly construed". Gamergate covered, among other things, "all edits about, and all pages related to ... (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy". The topic area of the gender disparity among Wikipedians and attempts to correct it forms a subset of the topic area covered by the Gamergate DS. Even if discretionary sanctions are still needed in this narrow topic area, the remedy here is redundant to the remedy that remains active in Gamergate. ~ Rob13 Talk 03:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
GGTF - at least has the virtue of making DS about gender easy to find (and, perhaps a bit easier to understand for the non gamer), that GG does not. Could you merge? 'Gamergate and/or Gender Discretionary Sanctions'? That would leave intact, tracing the history. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 01:31, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Shrike at 08:41, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
According to WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 any edit done by new account in the area could be reverted according to ARBCOM decision.Recently I stumbled in two cases:
What should be done in such case?Should they be speedy deleted according to G5 or there are some other procedure?
@ Doug Weller: @ BU Rob13: According to this clarification [37] the sanction is not only about articles but about edits too and I think its good practice because it should stop socks to disrupt the area.The wording should be changed accordingly to be conclusive about every Wiki space(article,talk,new pages and etc)-- Shrike ( talk) 21:50, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
@ Opabinia regalis:,@ DeltaQuad: I think its wrong to allow those users to create articles.The original motion was enacted because of sock puppetry.It will give socks a possibility to use this venue to participate in Wikipedia although there were banned-- Shrike ( talk) 06:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
The provisions of 500/30 allow, but do not require, edits by users who do not meet the threshold to be reverted or removed. If the edit in question benefits the encyclopaedia (I haven't looked to see if the listed ones do or not) then it seems silly to revert for the sake of reverting. At most a friendly note on the user's talk page informing/reminding them about the 500/30 restriction seems most appropriate.
For any AfD I think following the guidance at Wikipedia:Speedy Keep point 4 is best: If subsequent editors added substantive comments in good faith before the nominator's [...] status was discovered, the nomination may not be speedily closed (though the nominator's opinion will be discounted in the closure decision). Thryduulf ( talk) 12:14, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
As it stands now, non-extendedconfirmed accounts are prohibited from editing "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". While we're here talking about this remedy, can you amend that to exclude talk pages? It's clear the committee didn't intend to bar IP editors from making talk page requests in this topic area, but that's technically what it's done. In a topic area like this, it's only a matter of time before some "clever" wikilawyer tries to make that argument.
I will not comment on the substance of the original issue here other than to say that, as always, common sense should be exercised everywhere on the project. ~ Rob13 Talk 06:02, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I have serious concerns about the second exception proposed by Opabinia regalis below. I'm guessing that OR sees an allowance to create drafts and pass them through AfC as similar to a talk page exception, but there's a rather substantial difference in which editor does the reviewing. At a talk page in the topic area, editors knowledgeable about the topic area will show up. They know what to look out for in terms of POV-pushing and biased sources. At AfC, random reviewer #928 shows up, who likely knows nothing about the Arab–Israeli conflict and the POVs involved. I seriously doubt random reviewer #928 can adequately review the article for neutrality without knowing anything about the topic area. I doubt AfC will adequately screen out the POV-pushing, socks, etc. that will always be involved in this topic area, and I expect we'll be back here within half a year if this exception is approved. It's a substantial loosening of restrictions that deserves a full discussion unto itself, at the very least, whereas the talk page exception merely documents existing practices. ~ Rob13 Talk 21:25, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Suggest amending to:
2) All articles pages related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed, excluding pages in the Wikipedia and *Talk namespaces, are eligible for extended confirmed protection. Editors may request this at
WP:RFPP or from any uninvolved Administrator.
or similar. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 17:55, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Note that the question of whether the 500/30 rule applies to talk pages was addressed here before, see the second I/P case here. (That's the page version before the case was archived but I cannot locate the archive.) The response then was that talk pages are included. However, it would not be a disaster if talk pages were excluded. On the other hand, it would definitely be a bad idea to just change "pages" to "articles", as pages like categories, templates, AfD discussions, etc, need defending just as much as articles do. BU_Rob13's suggestion is good.
Regarding Shrike's questions, I think that new articles created by non-500/30 users should be speedy-deletable, unless substantial improvements have meanwhile been made by a permitted editor. Similarly for AfDs.
Either way, dear arbitrators, please don't leave these matters for the community to sort out. Please make a decision so we can get on with writing articles. Zero talk 13:11, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Remedy 2 (General Prohibition) is modified to read as follows:
Remedy 2 (General Prohibition) is modified to read as follows:
All IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. This prohibition is preferably enforced by the use of extended confirmed protection, but where that is not feasible, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters. In the case of edits relevant to the topic area in articles (but not talk pages) not clearly related to the topic area, this will be enforced first by an Administrator placing a DS alert on their talk page with further edits handled as usual by AE.
# with thanks to BU Rob13.
Doug Weller
talk 16:51, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Remedy 2 (General Prohibition) is modified to read as follows:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Huldra at 23:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
In the Azzam Pasha quotation, Editor1 makes an addition, Editor2 removes it, Editor1 then makes the very same addition a few hours later (which Editor3 removes), and Editor1 argues they did not break 1RR as "the first edit was an edit, not a revert".
I believe that the issue raised is not only limited to ARBPIA3, but is more generally applicable. I respectfully invite the committee to make general comment on "first mover advantage" in revert wars (described more fully at WP:WINWAR#Intermediate tactics and gambits), particularly as applied to contentious topic spaces; and on if & how this should be addressed. I also respectfully invite the committee to examine the impact & effectiveness of the combination "1RR/consensus" restrictions applied to multiple articles in the ARBAP2 topic space. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 16:02, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
This is definitely a "bug" when it comes to all types of revert rules. Deference is automatically given to the position that is not the status quo, contrary to all our usual processes. The solution is to accompany all 1RR restrictions with the "Consensus required" restriction, as noted by Doug below. This has worked well on certain American politics articles this past election cycle, and it wholly addresses the issue here. This should be looked at in a context beyond just ARBPIA3. A motion amending all previous cases that currently have active 1RR restrictions to include the "Consensus required" restriction would be ideal. ~ Rob13 Talk 19:42, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Changing the definition of the 1RR rule could have wide-ranging effects. User:GorillaWarfare has recommended a community discussion. Another option is to encourage the admins who issue page-level restrictions under discretionary sanctions to try out different restrictions and see what the results are. Note that the proposed improvements to the 1RR rule by User:Huldra (above) and the one described by User:BU Rob13 to add 'consensus required' are quite different. While Huldra's rule is simple enough to be automated, BU Rob13's rule that requires consensus could make deciding a 1RR complaint more of a judgment call. Thanks to Template:2016 US Election AE we are gradually accumulating some experience with the 'discussion required' rule, the one favored by Doug Weller and BU Rob13 though some analysis would be required to see what the actual effects are. EdJohnston ( talk) 06:55, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
The proposal makes sense, since the status quo should get the advantage in a dispute between two editors. However, I'll mention one thing about the wording that doesn't seem to have been noted: it would allow one editor to do multiple reverts in the same article within 24 hours provided they were to different parts of the article. So this proposed wording is in one way less restrictive than before. However, on balance it would still be an improvement. Zero talk 12:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The general 1RR restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by DrChrissy at 23:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Over 12 months ago, I was topic banned from editing "...all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals, and the companies that produce them, broadly interpreted". I am seeking this sanction be lifted.
Since the imposition of the topic ban, I have remained a highly productive editor here on Wikipedia - please see my user page where I have listed articles I have created and significantly edited. It is clear I have not simply "waited out" this sanction.
To the best of my memory, I have not violated this topic ban, nor have I been accused of skirting around the ban or testing it. The protection of these articles has been successful.
The reasons I wish to have this sanction lifted are two-fold:
In summary, topic bans are imposed to protect articles - I believe this has been achieved. DrChrissy (talk) 23:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I am deeply concerned at statements made below that the GMO articles are now quiet - as if the disruption to this huge subject area has been due solely/largely to me. So, let's look at the extent of my editing in the GMO area prior to my topic ban. First, let me remind you of the scope of my topic ban. It is "DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals, and the companies that produce them, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed."
When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources.The second concern was my use of a Mercola publication. I accepted removal of this once it was explained to me the reason was it is not RS and did not attempt to edit war this into the article. During my topic ban I have learned to more accurately check the reliability of sources such as using Bealle's list and not using predatory journals, vanity journals, pay-for publication journals, etc.
Regardless of the outcome of this appeal (and yes, I can see the writing on the wall), I wish all members of ARBCOM a Happy and peaceful New Year. DrChrissy (talk) 00:18, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
BMK's statement is woefully short of diffs as is requested and expected at ARBCOM. In fact, the 2 diffs they do provide relate to confusion by multiple editors about the closing wording by an admin (in May 2015), and not my editing behaviour. Neither do these diffs relate to this topic ban.
BMK also accuses me of being a civil POV pusher. I have no problem with being called "civil", but if BMK believes I am a POV pusher, they must provide evidence (diffs). DrChrissy (talk) 17:36, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Please note that several of the diffs are immediately after the topic ban was imposed and several were attempts at clarification in the earliest stages of the ban.
@ Kirill Lokshin: Hi. I am pinging you because I added a section to my statement (Supplementary 1) which was just before your posting. It may have been such close timing that you missed it. DrChrissy (talk) 20:59, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
DrChrissy's statement neglects to mention some facts:
DrChrissy's topic ban was less stringent that that received by other parties to the case. This was deliberate on the Committee's part, to allow him to edit about gentically modified animals. However, less than a month later, because of DrChrissy's continued problematic editing and testing of the boundaries of his topic ban, the ban was changed by motion to read:DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified plants and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed.
DrChrissy's topic ban which currently states that "DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified plants and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed" is replaced with "DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals, and the companies that produce them, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed."
This, too, had to be clarified. It was modified on 20 May [41] to readindefinitely topic banned from editing any biomedical articles.
and had to be modified again on 3 September 2015 "to clarify 'broadly construed' for human medicine and MEDRS", to readUser:DrChrissy is topic banned from alternative medicine, broadly construed. To be clear, this includes alternative medicine for humans and animals, so Veterinary acupuncture does fall under the scope of this ban. Animal biology, behavior, health, and normal veterinary medicine does not fall under the scope of this ban so long as it does not intersect with alternative medicine topics such as acupuncture, homeopathy, TCM, energy medicine, faith healing, etc. DrChrissy is also topic banned from human medical articles and WP:MEDRS related discussions (in accordance with the previous close, and to reduce the possibility of conflict with the same group of users). This modifies the close of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive885#Topic ban for DrChrissy which imposed a topic ban from "biomedical articles". This ban may be appealed no sooner than 6 months from now, and will be logged at WP:RESTRICT.
User:DrChrissy is topic banned from alternative medicine, broadly construed. To be clear, this includes alternative medicine for humans and animals, so Veterinary acupuncture does fall under the scope of this ban. Animal biology, behavior, health, and normal veterinary medicine does not fall under the scope of this ban so long as it does not intersect with alternative medicine. DrChrissy is also topic banned from human health and medicine, and WP:MEDRS related discussions, broadly construed.
It's pretty clear DrChrissy has continued the same behavior that got them topic banned in GMOs in other topics, so the topic ban is still needed. They also neglect to mention with their not skirting their sanctions comment that they actually did skirt their topic ban, which resulted in it being broadened. They also violated the concurrent interaction ban handed to them from the same ArbCom case. Unfortunately, there is a recurrent trend of DrChrissy engaging in battleground behavior, pursuing that in vexatious requests on admin boards, and moving on to other topics once they get topic banned. After all that, they file an appeal immediately after they are able to only to have that appeal rejected because the community sees even more battleground behavior that went on in other topics after the ban. Here's a snapshot of what's been going on in the last year:
Leading up to GMO ArbCom
Since ArbCom (within the last year)
That's just after a quick search of summary level discussions, bans, etc. without getting into DrChrissy's actual comments (I'd run out of room relitigating everything within the last year). It's obvious they are not keeping their nose clean or acting on why they got banned in the first place. We're finally getting peace in the GMO topics (and nearly a whole month without a related AE case). The topic ban is still preventing further disruption as evidenced by DrChrissy's continued behavior documented in their other topic ban appeal denials. That's especially since it's clear they've been hanging around the periphery of GMO-related meta issues on editors' general behavior that have just been sanctioned in the topic.
I'd urge Arbs to continue preventing this disruption in the GMO topic as it's already been made clear DrChrissy cannot handle nuanced topic bans as they are requesting. That's especially with DrChrissy's pre-case actions being the straw that broke the camel's back (for eventual better or worse) that led to the opening of the original GMO case. If they have since not been able to appeal their other (and earlier) topic ban due to the same battleground behavior, that's also a good indication the more recent GMO ban should remain. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 04:21, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Context matters, opinion doesn't. I have zero hope that anything I say here will affect the outcome of this appeal, but perhaps if someone questions the modus operandi of the encyclopedia enough someone somewhere will begin to look more deeply into how we deal with editors. The extensions to this sanction were not added because Dr Chrissy deliberately tried to skirt the boundaries of the sanctions but because the boundaries of the sanction were in the original wording, unclear. For example:
There is disagreement about the close on 16 May of the topic-ban discussion about DrChrissy. (See discussion about it here, here and here.) Beeblebrox closed it as a ban from "biomedical articles," [68][69] and told DrChrissy that she was banned from "human biomedicine." [70] He later changed his advice to DrChrissy to "biomedical articles, broadly construed," [71] in response to a request that the ban include nonhuman animals. There was barely a mention of animals during the discussion. DrChrissy is an academic in a mainstream university who specializes in animal behaviour and animal welfare. He has written animal articles without a problem, including Feather pecking, Cognitive bias in animals, Deception in animals, Pregnancy in fish, Declawing of crabs and Self-anointing in animals. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect him to write about animals without mentioning health issues, and he needs to be able to write without looking over his shoulder. So the question is whether the biomedical topic ban extends (or should extend) to nonhuman animals. Sarah (SV) (talk) 17:17, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
We have to be careful in saying that an editor is a POV pusher, or doesn't care about the encyclopedia as a whole because they describe a sanction in terms we don't agree with. No one says an editor has to agree with a sanction, but what we do say is that the editor has to abide by the sanction which assumes that in the first place the sanction is clearly worded. We can't accuse an editor of stepping over boundaries if the boundaries are not clear or do not exist.
As a general statement: One of the situations which occurs on Wikipedia is that we get extremely knowledgeable people who begin to edit without the background many experienced editors have. These editors don't necessarily have the understanding of what Wikipedia considers to be reliable sources and in attempting to add sources are treated to sometimes, and even often, nasty incivilities. Not surprisingly, newer editors can respond by digging in. Experienced editors often respond with annoyance and, "this is a time sink". Yes it is, but this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, and part of that is to use the expertise of other editors where it can be the most useful. What is always missing from these equations is the response of the experienced to the inexperienced, the disrespect shown to those who are actually off-Wikipedia experts and the ownership of a self - selected group towards certain kinds of articles. I understand there are those who are attempting to disrupt with information that biases the reader; we have to be able to delineate those from those who are learning the ropes. I probably wouldn't have responded to this clarification given the chances that anything will change this appeal not because the arbs are unfair or are not knowledgable but because the process cannot give them kind of information we need to come to a fair conclusion, and human beings, all of us, are not un biased or without our own belief systems often unknown to the owners, but today I feel somewhat fed up, not with the arbs who I always assume are doing their best but with a system that doesn't work very well.
The arbs might be better served here if they actually asked DrChrissy some questions about his editing rather than take for granted the comments here which lack context and are opinions. ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 18:54, 29 December 2016 (UTC))
It would be a mistake to rescind this sanction. This is one of the (too few) cases where an ArbCom case and subsequent DS and ARCA's pretty much removed all disruption from a huge swath of articles. Aside from a few drive-by SPA's that quickly disappear, the entire suite of GMO related articles has been relatively quiet. DrChrissy contributes well in other areas but still doesn't seem to grasp why all these sanctions were placed on them. Their insistence that they weren't found to be pushing a particular POV, despite the evidence presented in so many arenas that lead to the sanctions, or broadening of sanctions, is baffling to me. It's something they have claimed before and something they are still claiming here. This suggests they still don't see what the original issues were with their editing, such as adding almost nothing but negative and often badly sourced material to GMO articles.
I have to note as well that Olive mentions above that many of these comments lack context. To that I'd like to point out that most, if not all, the Arbs here were presented evidence in various venues, some going all the way back to the GMO case I believe, so I'm sure they are aware of the context. Capeo ( talk) 15:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Mathsci at 06:26, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
During my appeal last year, Doug Weller corresponded with me about my voluntary topic ban from this area. It had been in force since August 2010 and has been adhered to. All restrictions were removed in December 2010, on the initiative of Newyorkbrad, but my voluntary ban stayed in force. I have not edited in this area since July 2010. Since then, encouraged by the arbitration committee, I have helped administrators and checkusers on and off wiki with sockpuppetry in this topic area. That is still happening.
I would prefer to return to the position adopted in December 2010 if possible. The topic ban, which I was first asked about in an email from Courcelles, might give administrators the wrong impression about my editing history, i.e. that I have edited wikipedia with ideological prejudices. That seems to have happened once already.
I would therefore like the phrase "This is to be enforced as a standard topic ban" to be struck from the motion, thus returning to the status quo of my voluntary topic ban.
I am completely happy with the rest of the current phrasing, which was modified from the original email proposal. This request is independent of and does not concern any interaction bans. Mathsci ( talk)
I'm quite confused about this distinction between a voluntary topic ban and a "standard" topic ban. One may voluntarily agree to an unblock condition, but once the unblock is made, that condition is no longer voluntary. This restriction should either remain unchanged or be lifted entirely. If this editor has been as helpful as he says he has been for this many years without issue, I'm inclined to support lifting the restriction entirely. ~ Rob13 Talk 08:08, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
We've had no movement on this for a while, but everyone who's commented so far seems to be fine with lifted the topic ban. It would be ideal to close this in that direction soon so as not to leave the editor hanging for longer than the two weeks they already have been. ~ Rob13 Talk 16:15, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#Modified_by_motion_(December_2010) reads: "Remedy 6 (" Mathsci topic-banned by mutual consent") of the Race and Intelligence case is terminated, effective immediately." So if above Mathsci requests "That the topic ban imposed in April 2016 be replaced by the voluntary topic ban adopted in August/December 2010" (emphasis added) I'm not sure whether they intend to observe a (binding/voluntary) avoidance of the topic, or the December 2010 termination decision (which holds no commitment whatsoever to avoid the topic).
Mathsci's commitment to indefinite voluntary topic bans can be illustrated as follows: in August 2016 Mathsci committed to "As I also wrote in the request [i.e.: "At ANI I also voluntarily committed myself to ceasing editing 2016 Nice attack or its talk page indefinitely"], I will not edit the 2016 Nice attack article and its talk page". Mathsci resumed editing the 2016 Nice attack page and its talk page in November ( [56], [57]). Their edits to the mainspace article and its talk page in November-December are entirely constructive and unproblematic afaics – only illustrating the "indefinite" timeframe being translated to less than four months (also without prejudice where and when Mathsci may have obtained permission to shorten the "indefinite" part of their voluntary avoidance of the topic).
The discussion of Mathsci's amendment request appears largely semantic thus far, if you ask me: translating it into a proposal free of such side-tracking semantics:
Rescind the
The unban has been granted on the condition that Mathsci continue to refrain from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to the race and intelligence topic area, broadly construed. This is to be enforced as a standard topic ban.part of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#Modified_by_motion_(April_2016)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Mathsci (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
logs ·
filter log ·
block user ·
block log) was
unbanned in April 2016 under the condition that he refrain from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to the race and intelligence topic area, broadly construed
. This restriction is now rescinded. The interaction bans to which Mathsci is a party remain in force.
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 90 | ← | Archive 92 | Archive 93 | Archive 94 | Archive 95 | Archive 96 | → | Archive 100 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by The Wordsmith at 22:04, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Motion 6 ( WP:NEWBLPBAN) authorized Standard Discretionary Sanctions for BLP content. This precludes WP:INVOLVED admins from acting. The older WP:BLPSE had a similar clause.
However, it seems that this contradicts WP:BLPADMINS, which states that "Administrators may enforce the removal of clear BLP violations with page protection or by blocking the violator(s), even if they have been editing the article themselves or are in some other way involved."
In an apparent conflict between policy and Arbcom decision, which prevails? My own opinion is that involved Administrators are able to block, but not log it as a Discretionary Sanction and the block would be subject to the lower standard for reversal that we use for other blocks. There isn't a specific incident I'm thinking of, but I could see it becoming an issue in the future and would like clarification on how that might be handled. The Wordsmith Talk to me 22:04, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Darkfrog24 at 04:59, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
≠=== Statement by Darkfrog24 === I request that discussion, if any, of SMcCandlish's misconduct take place in a separate thread.
EDIT: SMcCandlish has alleged that I brought up this specific accusation as some kind of trick. I did not. You guys made it clear last time that you did not consider it your job to weigh in on every individual accusation, but I figured no one would mind if I asked you to do so on just one. I picked this accusation in particular for the reasons I gave below and because it is important to me personally, regardless of what role it did or did not play in the rest of this. It has done me considerable harm, and I don't mean to my hobbies or on-Wiki reputation. I mean harm. I'll say more if you ask me to, but I'd rather not. To address the issue of whether I thought the admins believed it, of course I did: They acted on it. It's one thing for SMcCandlish to say something extreme on some talk page and quite another for that statement to be officially endorsed and punishment meted out. The idea that anyone thinks I would do something that evil has been eating me alive. This didn't happen last winter. It started last winter and has been happening every day. If my hands are still touching the stick, it's because I'm trying to block the blows.
I'd worked with him for five and a half years at that point and did not at that time think he was a bad person. Is it that hard to believe I was worried about him?
This is first because it is necessary.
Is it Wikipedia's position that I tried to gaslight SMcCandlish?
Gaslighting is the attempt to convince someone that they're crazy using systematic psychological harassment and torture.
Here are the accusation and links cited: [1] [2] [3]. Last summer, he was acting weird, like something bad had happened off-Wiki. I asked another editor to go easy on him. I asked him (on his talk page, not in front of everyone) if he was okay. I dropped the matter immediately after reading his reply. That is not gaslighting; that is what people should do.
Why this accusation
Why this is worth ArbCom's time
In addition to the harm this has done me personally, Wikipedia is bleeding talent and the #1 reason people give for leaving is the toxic environment. The idea that editors can be punished for being nice to someone on the other side of the aisle is the second worst thing I've seen on Wikipedia. We're supposed to be a community.
If you do think that I actually did this, say so.
I come bearing zero attempts at block evasion and, per instructions at Meta-Wiki, months of meaningful contributions to other parts of project Wiki.
I have translated much of Category:Euryarchaeota into Spanish and added new content to most articles, with corresponding updates to Wikidata. Any content disputes were resolved through discussion.
As a result, I was sponsored for autoverificado status, unsolicited. ( not the same as autoconfirmation)
I've also worked at Idea Lab, participating in the June anti-harassment drive and other projects. [ I have been thanked].
I had a different text ready, but a recent conversation gave me some highly useful perspective.
Clarify: 1) I was blocked for volume, not for "talking about other users." The reason I can't figure out why you think my February post to Thryduulf violates WP:BANEX is because you don't. 2) You consider asking about how topic bans work, which I did several times, and attempting to renegotiate my topic ban, which I did once to be the same thing or at least to draw from the same well, the way some employers combine sick and vacation days but others consider them separate. Is that it?
Here's the problem, though: I was targeted by a complaint with excessive volume. "10,000 words" is not hyperbole. I did not even get to finish reading it before I was sanctioned, and when I did, I found it was heavily falsified. I don't think anyone here believes "Accusers get as much time as they want to write statements as long as they want and say whatever they want and if the accused can't handle that in days, into the trash with them" is okay. That invites abuse. There's got to be a non-disruptive place between my actions and not being allowed to climb out from under the bus.
...that place is clear guidelines for long complaints, and I am in an excellent position to be part of that solution. I've worked out some strong ideas:
I wasn't ready for a complaint twenty times the limit, and I can believe the AE admins weren't either. Over this year, there's been a growing awareness at AE that the accused shouldn't be expected to respond on the spot. Those efforts should be supported.
The source of confusion here is that the AE admins issued the ban for the reasons Thryduulf gave in February, none of which are true and some of which can be easily disproven, but the Committee upheld it for a completely different reason, discussed over email last April. Again, it looks like the issue with my actions at project MOS is closer to volume than to content, and you would consider qualitatively similar participation acceptable so long as there were less of it, per SlimVirgin and my own voluntary offer back in January (NOTE: At the time, I thought "1RR" meant "one talk page post per day.")
I request that you state this. "Darkfrog24 is topic banned for [phrase as you prefer] and nothing else." I would like it if you explicitly rejected the other accusations: "Darkfrog did not call people names, battleground, falsify ENGVAR claims, push POV..." but that's what I want. What I need is up top.
The only words needed from you, SMcCandlish are "I'm very sorry for lying and I promise never to do it again." Or even just that last part. You may leave now. You will be notified of any proceedings regarding your misconduct.
If you want proof that SMcCandlish knowingly and deliberately lied at AE, I will provide it. However, that and his other misconduct should be handled in a separate thread and appropriate venue. I am not the first person he has targeted. Frankly, it bothers me a great deal that some individuals on Wikipedia seem to care more that I called him a liar than that he lied. He's called me a liar and worse things, with no proof at all, and no one batted an eye. (And yes his statement was just under 10,000 words. 1800+ in-thread and about a 7000 linked-in portion. Even if its contents had not been grossly fabricated, its length alone made responding in the normal time frame impossible.)
As to which way the interaction ban should go, well, I didn't Wikistalk through seven years of his user history and spend months writing an eighteen-page treatise full of fabrications about him. I didn't call him slurs. I didn't speculate about his job and make fun of what I thought it was. I defended his right to hold whatever belief he wanted so long as he stopped his hostile behavior toward people who don't share them. I did not mock and bait him while he was topic-banned. And I absolutely did not say that "Are you okay" was gaslighting if he was the one who said it. He's the one who shouldn't be allowed to talk to me. But yes, if he weren't allowed to talk to or about me, that would knock out a lot of the problem at WT:MOS. Take his creepy obsession with me and shut it down.
@ Drmies: I will repeat to you my statement that I will continue to obey the topic ban while it is in force, but yes I will still seek to have it lifted either on schedule in February or at some earlier time of the committee's choosing. It is simply a matter of doing so in a way that has been established as nondisruptive—which is why the committee, community or both should establish procedures for dealing with very long complaints regardless of what else happens here. If you guys think I have to prove myself on some other part of the encyclopedia before going back to project MoS, well, I don't think that's necessary, but I'd still do it. (NOTE: I am under the impression that topic bans, including this one, are meant to be temporary.) About my ability to follow the topic ban, well, I have been reading AE threads from January through October to internalize patterns of what is and isn't allowed. I don't see why they can't just be written down at WP:TBAN, though. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 01:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
SMcCandlish speculated that I was "[only] a community college professor" and talked about how CC profs are stupid or something. I can find this or any of the diffs if necessary, but I don't think this is the right venue.
Again, this should really be addressed in its own thread, but I worked with SMcCandlish for over five years, and this is a pattern with him: Accuse the other person of doing the thing that he's doing so they look stupid if they counter-accuse. Calling names, slurs against my mental health, ignoring sources. Only difference is I called him on it first this time.
Do not let SMcCandlish confuse the issue of whether I should be unblocked. What if anything should be done about his actions is a separate issue, and it it should be handled in the right way, with diffs and enough time to read any statements made against him.
I have a concern. I've agreed to Opabinia's point a), more than once, but it looks like you guys want me to agree to something else too. I have an idea of a few things it might be but I am concerned that if I ask you "Is it this?" I will end up making some big sacrifice only to have one of you say months or years from now "I never told Darkfrog24 they had to do that. They did it on their own." I've had people do that with me before. Maybe none of you have any intention of doing that and this is just a matter of hard communication, but that is why I do not want to voice any guesses about what is required of me, regardless of whether they'd be right.
Please state explicitly, "Darkfrog24, in addition to continuing to obey the topic ban and appealing it only through official, nondisruptive channels we want you to do/not do [action]" or "Darkfrog24, we do not generally require sanctioned editors to [do this] but we are asking/telling you to do it anyway. We feel that it is what is best for this specific case."
If it is that topic-banned editors are not allowed to talk about the topic ban or their accusers, even if they do not mention the banned topic itself, then you need to talk with this guy at WT:TBAN because not everyone's on the same page.
Just so it's on record here, I did not go to Wales' talk page to crusade, as Spartaz puts it. I asked for someone to come and help us communicate. I used the word "translation." You guys think you're being clear. I think I'm being clear. Things still aren't meeting neatly. This is where someone else coming in could make a difference. I believed I was allowed to make this post because blocked editors are allowed to appeal to Wales and he is included in the request. Spartaz has told me on my talk page that I must not continue posting to Wales' talk page in this way, and I have done so.
...has produced some useful comments. @ Ca2james::
"Relitigating" includes but is not limited to talking about how this person lied, or that process was bad/unfair and could be improved, or Darkfrog disagrees with the topic ban because X, Y, Z. That limitation does not preclude them from appealing their topic ban. Instead, it means that any appeal they make must not include a discussion of any other editor's behaviour or what happened when they were banned but must focus solely on their own behaviour.
Is that it? Please confirm two things: 1) This looks like it means I'd be forbidden from saying that SMcCandlish lied at AE in January but I would still be at liberty to say "It is not true that I made bogus claims, bit the new guy, etc." should I choose to do so so long as his name is not mentioned and no case is made regarding whether he was lying or innocently mistaken, etc. 2) I am or am not forbidden from participating in discussions of how the AE process could be improved? Please confirm. It all sounds plausible to me, but I need to hear it from you.
It sounds like the motion is saying that I do not have to pretend that the accusations were true or in any way endorse them at my next appeal.
Would said appeal take place here or through the normal unblock system?
I point you toward section III above. Please confirm whether I have guessed the matter correctly. You do not agree with Thryduulf's list about the reasons for the original topic-ban. Rather you believe it is for the other reason outlined there, the volume of my participation in the debates over WP:LQ, not specific misconduct. (I have also been assuming from the beginning that I was not sanctioned based on what side of that debate I am on.) Please say either, "Yes, that is correct" or "No, that is not correct. In my/our view, you were topic-banned because of [reason]." I need to know what part of my Wikipedia MO to work on. Basically, establish the location of the goalposts, as of today. You can always change your mind later.
I would like the committee, either individually or as a body, to reject the accusation of gaslighting. It is extremely important. This is not about what SMcCandlish thought the word meant. It is about what the admins who acted on it thought I had done. This is about the meaning of the official sanction. I wasn't trying to either psychologically torture or belittle anyone. I was just being nice.
In a user talk post concurrent with this ARCA, Darkfrog24 opens with a renewal of this user's pursuit of vengeance against me: "My own case is complicated. Short version: It started when I was targeted by a liar with a grudge" [5]. Nothing has changed, and this self-defeating ARCA is not "complicated" at all, but essentially identical to the last one, in April [6]. DarkFrog24 was instructed in no uncertain terms to stop beating the dead horse of her personalized campaign against me ( Laser brain, [7], among other admonitions), and failure to do so was one of the main reasons the very narrow t-ban became a broader one, then a block, then an indef. The direct tie between abandoning this vendetta and perhaps being allowed to return to edit again was made clear, not just repeatedly at AE but also by admins at DF24's own talk page (multiple times, this is just the latest one, from June):
Now here we are again, with DF24 not asking to return to WP to work on something else, but dwelling entirely on the general topic of the topic ban, continued pursuit of a hounding effort against me that stems directly and entirely from that topic, and why everyone else is wrong. This editor is clearly not getting the point, on a long-term if not permanent basis, and equally clearly is just biding time restart the same fray. Both of these were the other major factors in the escalating series of sanctions against DF24, who pestered AE admins incessantly with an "I just don't understand" act and constant border-testing for weeks until indeffed, and resumed the same behavior when allowed to edit her user talk page again (cf. the threads I just cited from June and October).
I'm not going to respond to the litany of details in DF24's screed, just make three quick points that render the details moot:
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Also, most of DF24's post above is the user trying to appeal things that cannot be appealed until the twelve-month mark, in Feb. 2017. Only the indef was subject to a six-month review.
—
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 09:46, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Struck, as unhelpful. —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
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My aim with this statement is to find a way forward to help Darkfrog24 to move on to become a productive wikipedia editor. First, full disclosure, I'm semi-involved. I have collaborated with Darkfrog24 with a proposal for the Inspire initiative on meta, I can vouch for them as an editor with a great deal of insight who did much to help shape the proposal. I feel that they have a lot to contribute to wikipedia and it is sad to see them blocked in this way. I want to help them to move on. Also I know from conversations with them via email that they also want to move on and put this behind them as much as the rest of you.
They feel that they have a lot they could contribute to wikipedia, including special interests in the topic areas of
So how can this be moved forward? I understand that you are saying that they need to agree to certain conditions first, for the block to be removed but am not at all clear on what those are. Here is a suggestion as a starting point. Would this be agreeable to you if it is agreeable to them?
Would such an agreement suffice for lifting the block? If not, can you suggest what conditions would be sufficient? Please be specific, about what exactly you would require of Darkfrog24. I'd also appreciate being told what the reasoning is for those requirements.
Before we put it to bed I wonder if I can be permitted to say something about the gaslighting charge as well - again not in an attempt to change decisions, but rather as a way to try to promote mutual understanding here. I think it may be due to a difference in use of language. As someone from the UK, just reading the diff (I haven't asked them what they meant), I found your reactions to it bewildering. To me "slightly more than his baseline" means such things as a bad week at work, domestic issues, financial troubles or the like.
With that background the rest of the diff [30] reads to me just like them asking other editors to go easy on SMcCandlish because they may be going through a rough time at present. It suggests nothing at all about mental impairment, never mind the far more serious charge of gaslighting which SMcCandlish made in January [31]. I can't see anything in that diff, or the other diffs he supplied that remotely suggests gaslighting, when read in context. As I read it (as a reader from the UK), it is rather an attempt by Darkfrog24 to evoke sympathy towards SMcCandlish with other editors. I am sure that their only objective here since then has been to clear their own name in the records of what would seem to be a serious charge against them that hasn't been cleared. But it hasn't worked well, and it is best for both sides, I think, if the past is treated as the past and both sides begin with a fresh slate.
The aim of this post is to find a way forward that you can both agree to. It is not an attempt to influence the debate, and neither has Darkfrog24 asked me to do so. I am aware of wikipedia guidelines on WP:CANVAS. I believe that this post is in accord with those guidelines. If this post is thought to infringe them in any way, I will of course remove it.
"... may be appealed no sooner than 12 months from today (4 February 2016).... You may appeal this sanction using the process described here."
@ Opabinia regalis: and @ Drmies: and other admins, perhaps I can help draw attention to some aspects of Darkfrog24's situation? By far the most serious accusation leading to their indef topic ban is the charge of gaslighting . @ SMcClandish: writes there: [33]
"DF24 ... has repeatedly cast WP:ASPERSIONS about my mental health, ... Also, a long string of dishonesty allegations (increasing after ban) ... Can prove this habit of incivility and gaslighting is much broader, but would need length-limit"
SMcClandish has just said on Jimmy Wales's talk page that he meant it in the second sense in this online urban dictionary [34]
"A more psychological definition of gaslighting is "an increasing frequency of systematically withholding factual information from, and/or providing false information to, the victim - having the gradual effect of making them anxious, confused, and less able to trust their own memory and perception."
So Darkfrog24 has to clear their name of this charge somehow. There is nothing for them to apologize for since it's clear from the diffs that they never did any gaslighting. If SMcClandish doesn't retract the charge, can I suggest that perhaps some impartial editor or admin could investigate the matter and establish if it ever happened or not? Everything they said about lying and gaslighting, as I read it, is mainly in the interests of clearing this mark from their records, since without doing that, a future topic ban appeal would seem to be impossible. Robert Walker ( talk) 18:57, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Posting this after your new motion. If I understand you right, there has been no suggestion that they have done anything against the actual terms of either of the topic bans since their first topic ban on quotation marks was instated. So, to get the block lifted, it seems that they have to agree to something to do with personal conduct.
The indef block statement says they are blocked until they agree to stop relitigating it, but doesn't say in detail what that involves. The topic ban statements don't mention personal conduct. It is good to know that the ARE action is not an endorsement of every claim made by the filer. Do they have to appeal any of the charges made during the TBan discussion to appeal the block? The indef statement also suggests that they don't understand the terms of the TBan.
I think it would help a lot if you could draft out a more detailed statement for them to agree to which lays out
This has clearly run its course and DF is now taking his crusade to Jimbo's talk page. They have also been warned about propagating their feud with SMMcCandlish on their talk while unblocked but blown off the warning. This has gone far enough I think. Can a Clark or Arb reinstate the block or would it be OK for me to do that? Spartaz Humbug!
As I was mentioned above and since this is still open, here's my take.
Let me start by saying that I'm confused by
Darkfrog24's first question to me above: This looks like it means I'd be forbidden from saying that SMcCandlish lied at AE in January but I would still be at liberty to say "It is not true that I made bogus claims, bit the new guy, etc." should I choose to do so so long as his name is not mentioned and no case is made regarding whether he was lying or innocently mistaken, etc.
This statement appears to me to completely miss the point that the circumstances of the topic ban must not be relitigated, or mentioned, or brought up on a talk page. To answer the question: as far as I understand it, no, Darkfrog24 would not be at liberty to say that, or to talk about
SMcCandlish's behaviour without mentioning his name.
That question and Darkfrog's post on Jimbo's talk page both suggest to me that one of the reasons Darkfrog24 is continually asking for clarification is because they're hoping that someone will tell them that they can do whatever it is that they want to do; ie that they're looking for loopholes by picking out this or that part of the guidelines/sanctions/advice to follow. As an example of something they want to do, Darkfrog24 has stated that they're gathering evidence wanting to be able to post evidence against SMcCandlish
[35]. Since I expect that the evidence involves the MOS, I think that talking about collecting wanting to collect and present it might be a violation of their MOS topic ban. Both the question above and this post I diffed indicate that Darkfrog24 is trying to find a way within the sanctions to collect and present this evidence.
It has also occurred to me that Darkfrog24 is treating an appeal on Wikipedia as if it were a court appeal in the US, where the sentence (or sanction, on Wikipedia) can be thrown out on a technicality, making it worth arguing every little point to get the sanction overturned. On Wikipedia, my understanding is that an editor is sanctioned because they were found to be disruptive; sanctioning removes that editor from the situation and allows other editors to get to work. My understanding is that an appeal has one goal: to show that the sanctioned editor will no longer be disruptive in the area. Ca2james ( talk) 17:42, 2 December 2016 (UTC) (edited 21:39, 2 December 2016 (UTC))
confess to infractions that [you] did not commit to get the sanctions removed. The point I think you seem to be missing is that the behavioural issues for which you were sanctioned - a battleground mentality, personalizing disputes, not letting things go, etc - were shown by the statements and diffs from the cases, and it's my understanding that in a successful topic ban appeal you'll need to show that you're not going to behave those ways, not that you won't do those specific things. Therefore, it's my understanding that a successful topic ban appeal isn't going to involve you rebutting or refuting each and every statement in the topic ban case (ie it won't involve relitigating your topic ban). My understanding of a successful block appeal is that you'd say or show that you would abide by the topic ban.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
In the past year, Darkfrog24 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been subject to a series of Arbitration Enforcement actions under the discretionary sanctions authorized in the Article Titles and Capitalisation case. In January 2016, Darkfrog24 was topic-banned from from articles, discussions, and guidelines, explicitly including the manual of style, related to quotation marks and quotation styles, broadly interpreted, following an AE request. In February this topic ban was broadened to encompass the Manual of Style and related topics following another AE request. Later that month, she was blocked indefinitely "until they either understand the terms of the tban or agree to stop disruptively relitigating it" after a third AE request. She was unblocked to participate in an appeal to ARCA in April 2016, which was declined by the Arbitration Committee. The block was lifted again in November 2016 to permit the present ARCA appeal.
The Committee notes that Darkfrog24 disputes some elements of the original AE filings. We emphasize that imposing an AE sanction requires only that a reviewing admin finds sufficient disruption to warrant action and is not an endorsement of every individual claim that may be made by the filer. After review of the current appeal, we find that there is no evidence in favor of lifting or modifying the topic ban, and the disruptive behavior, in the form of repeated relitigation of the circumstances of the topic ban, has continued. The appeal is declined and the block will be reinstated. She may appeal again in three months (one year from the original indefinite block). She is very strongly advised to focus that appeal on her future editing interests in topics well separated from the subjects of her topic ban, and to appeal the topic ban itself only after establishing a successful record of productive contributions in other areas.
Enacted - Mini apolis 21:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Fæ at 11:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
An earlier version of this query was emailed to the Arbcom list on 25 November, I have raised it here as requested by the committee.
Dear Arbcom,
I have been interpreting the remaining restrictions on my account[1], in particular "editing BLPs relating to sexuality, broadly construed" as applying to BLP articles in the article namespace, and excluding the LGBT+ studies discussion group, being part of the Wikipedia/Wikipedia Talk namespace, which I have contributed to several times in the past few years (as an example to the LGBT studies guidelines), or other LGBT+ related discussions in talk namespace which may refer to biographies but are not edits in main/article namespace. In addition I have created the BDP for Ramchandra Siras, being notable for the legal case Siras fought in India against his being penalised as a result of being homosexual, and continued my Commons projects almost all of which are post AD 1000 works.
Is my interpretation okay? I ask as a result of the request on 25 November, to help another contributor by setting up a proposed change to the article for the writer Milo Yiannopoulos, controversial for their anti-trans statements. Though contributing on analysing reliable sources using my LexisNexis research access, I neither made the proposal to change the article text, nor am I in any dispute with anyone, nor do I intend to edit the article. My objective was to help with the process for gaining a consensus and no more than that.[2][3] It has only occurred to me on reflection that being involved in the details, may be an issue in the context of the outstanding Arbcom restrictions from March 2013.
If I am astray and should be avoiding these discussions, in addition to not editing BLPs relating to sexuality, please do advise. My apologies if I have misunderstood how the restrictions were intended to work. As a precaution I'll avoid making any further comment on-wiki for the above proposal on the presumption that it may be an issue. I regret doing anything that may be perceived as going close to the boundaries of the Arbcom restriction, as I am planning on making a more properly thought out amendment request in a few months time, with the intention of giving more freedom to engage on Wikipedia with the results of positive content projects I am directly involved with, like m:Grants:Project/Rapid/LGBT/Wiki Loves Pride Featured Picture drive 2016, and would not want a thoughtless mistake to blot my copybook with the Committee before then.
Thank you, Fæ ( talk) 11:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Respected Arbs,
I am the editor who made the request for assistance in setting up an RfC or similar structured discussion as referred to by
Fæ, above. I was not aware of the restrictions when I made the request, and have only become aware of them as a result of this clarification request; I would not have made the request had I been so aware. I wish to express my appreciation of & gratitude for Fæ's assistance, and for their calm and reasoned input into the discussion which provoked my request.
Should the committee decide that the creation of the article Talk page discussion is within the scope of the restrictions, I would implore them to take no further action regarding it; I firmly believe that the action was taken entirely in good faith, and with intent to improve the encyclopedia.
Separate to the question of Fæ's action in light of the restrictions, I would, however, express my grave concerns with the use of WikiProjects to hold "off-page discussions" on the content of individual articles. This is firmly outside the goals and scope of this, or any other WikiProject, and intersects poorly with WP:CANVASS, WP:TAGTEAM/WP:GANG. I request the committee to confirm that such discussions should take place on the Talk pages of the articles involved; augmented by discussion at the various noticeboards (NPOVN, RSN, BLPN, etc), as required.
Thanks in advance for your consideration on this matter. -
Ryk72
'c.s.n.s.' 11:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Fæ's restriction currently reads: "Fæ is topic banned from editing BLPs relating to sexuality, broadly construed.". I encourage the Committee to revise that to one of the following options to clarify the intent:
I do not (at present) have a preference between the options. Thryduulf ( talk) 17:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
The other restrictions, "Fæ is topic banned from images relating to sexuality, broadly construed." and it's loosening amendment "Notwithstanding the existing restrictions on his editing, Fæ is permitted to edit regarding images of sexuality in ancient and medieval times, up to A.D. 1000. This permission may be withdrawn at any time by further motion of this Committee." and those relating to automated editing, all seem (to me at least) to clearly apply in all namespaces and I don't think clarification of those is needed, but appending the sentence "This restriction applies to all namespaces." would I think be sufficient if desired. Thryduulf ( talk) 18:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Dear Arbcom, several years have passed since any edits that this topic ban was based on. Does this topic ban serve any ongoing purpose? I rather think Wikipedia would benefit if you simply removed the restrictions on Fæ. Ϣere SpielChequers 20:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
First a disclosure. Fae and I do not get on. Anyone with any long standing knowledge of our interactions can attest to that.
That said, the behaviour sanctioned was a wiki aeon ago. These restrictions no longer serve a purpose and doubt fae would even want to repeat the behaviours that cost him dear now. Policy on blp is much clearer and easier to enforce these days. There is no harm in lifting fae's restrictions.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Remedy 5: Fæ banned (March 2013) in which Fae was unblocked with the conditions that he was topic banned from editing BLPs relating to sexuality, broadly construed as well as topic banned from images relating to sexuality, broadly construed is suspended for a period of six months. During the period of suspension, this restriction may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator as an arbitration enforcement action should Fæ fail to adhere to Wikipedia editing standards in these areas, broadly construed. Appeal of such a reinstatement would follow the normal arbitration enforcement appeals process. After six months from the date this motion is enacted, if the restriction has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the restriction will automatically lapse.
Enacted - Mini apolis 22:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by BU Rob13 at 05:49, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
It appears that the discretionary sanctions in this topic area are no longer necessary. The last application of discretionary sanctions in this topic area occurred on October 4, 2014, over two years ago ( see log). Additionally, a review of the pages most affected by the dispute that generated the original case reveals no disruption above the level expected of a reasonably "mainstream" article. For instance, Ludwig von Mises Institute was central to the case, but the article history shows only common vandalism/removal of sourced information over the past two years. The rate of disruption there wouldn't even be high enough to justify semi-protection. The community can handle this topic area without an arbitration remedy at this time. ~ Rob13 Talk 05:49, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Every so often, it becomes reasonable to terminate sanctions that are no longer necessary,
For this motion there are 12 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by BU Rob13 at 03:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Continuing with the theme of cleaning up old DS before the new year, this DS has only been applied twice since it first passed in December 2014, and only to establish interaction bans that arguably could have been handled by the community. The latest application of DS was in April 2015. Based on that alone, I believe the topic bans and other remedies in this case were sufficient to handle disruption in this topic area, but I also noticed that the defined topic area here strongly overlaps with Gamergate. Discretionary sanctions in this case cover "any page relating to or any edit about: (i) the Gender Gap Task Force; (ii) the gender disparity among Wikipedians; and (iii) any process or discussion relating to these topics, all broadly construed". Gamergate covered, among other things, "all edits about, and all pages related to ... (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy". The topic area of the gender disparity among Wikipedians and attempts to correct it forms a subset of the topic area covered by the Gamergate DS. Even if discretionary sanctions are still needed in this narrow topic area, the remedy here is redundant to the remedy that remains active in Gamergate. ~ Rob13 Talk 03:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
GGTF - at least has the virtue of making DS about gender easy to find (and, perhaps a bit easier to understand for the non gamer), that GG does not. Could you merge? 'Gamergate and/or Gender Discretionary Sanctions'? That would leave intact, tracing the history. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 01:31, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Shrike at 08:41, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
According to WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 any edit done by new account in the area could be reverted according to ARBCOM decision.Recently I stumbled in two cases:
What should be done in such case?Should they be speedy deleted according to G5 or there are some other procedure?
@ Doug Weller: @ BU Rob13: According to this clarification [37] the sanction is not only about articles but about edits too and I think its good practice because it should stop socks to disrupt the area.The wording should be changed accordingly to be conclusive about every Wiki space(article,talk,new pages and etc)-- Shrike ( talk) 21:50, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
@ Opabinia regalis:,@ DeltaQuad: I think its wrong to allow those users to create articles.The original motion was enacted because of sock puppetry.It will give socks a possibility to use this venue to participate in Wikipedia although there were banned-- Shrike ( talk) 06:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
The provisions of 500/30 allow, but do not require, edits by users who do not meet the threshold to be reverted or removed. If the edit in question benefits the encyclopaedia (I haven't looked to see if the listed ones do or not) then it seems silly to revert for the sake of reverting. At most a friendly note on the user's talk page informing/reminding them about the 500/30 restriction seems most appropriate.
For any AfD I think following the guidance at Wikipedia:Speedy Keep point 4 is best: If subsequent editors added substantive comments in good faith before the nominator's [...] status was discovered, the nomination may not be speedily closed (though the nominator's opinion will be discounted in the closure decision). Thryduulf ( talk) 12:14, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
As it stands now, non-extendedconfirmed accounts are prohibited from editing "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". While we're here talking about this remedy, can you amend that to exclude talk pages? It's clear the committee didn't intend to bar IP editors from making talk page requests in this topic area, but that's technically what it's done. In a topic area like this, it's only a matter of time before some "clever" wikilawyer tries to make that argument.
I will not comment on the substance of the original issue here other than to say that, as always, common sense should be exercised everywhere on the project. ~ Rob13 Talk 06:02, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I have serious concerns about the second exception proposed by Opabinia regalis below. I'm guessing that OR sees an allowance to create drafts and pass them through AfC as similar to a talk page exception, but there's a rather substantial difference in which editor does the reviewing. At a talk page in the topic area, editors knowledgeable about the topic area will show up. They know what to look out for in terms of POV-pushing and biased sources. At AfC, random reviewer #928 shows up, who likely knows nothing about the Arab–Israeli conflict and the POVs involved. I seriously doubt random reviewer #928 can adequately review the article for neutrality without knowing anything about the topic area. I doubt AfC will adequately screen out the POV-pushing, socks, etc. that will always be involved in this topic area, and I expect we'll be back here within half a year if this exception is approved. It's a substantial loosening of restrictions that deserves a full discussion unto itself, at the very least, whereas the talk page exception merely documents existing practices. ~ Rob13 Talk 21:25, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Suggest amending to:
2) All articles pages related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed, excluding pages in the Wikipedia and *Talk namespaces, are eligible for extended confirmed protection. Editors may request this at
WP:RFPP or from any uninvolved Administrator.
or similar. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 17:55, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Note that the question of whether the 500/30 rule applies to talk pages was addressed here before, see the second I/P case here. (That's the page version before the case was archived but I cannot locate the archive.) The response then was that talk pages are included. However, it would not be a disaster if talk pages were excluded. On the other hand, it would definitely be a bad idea to just change "pages" to "articles", as pages like categories, templates, AfD discussions, etc, need defending just as much as articles do. BU_Rob13's suggestion is good.
Regarding Shrike's questions, I think that new articles created by non-500/30 users should be speedy-deletable, unless substantial improvements have meanwhile been made by a permitted editor. Similarly for AfDs.
Either way, dear arbitrators, please don't leave these matters for the community to sort out. Please make a decision so we can get on with writing articles. Zero talk 13:11, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Remedy 2 (General Prohibition) is modified to read as follows:
Remedy 2 (General Prohibition) is modified to read as follows:
All IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. This prohibition is preferably enforced by the use of extended confirmed protection, but where that is not feasible, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters. In the case of edits relevant to the topic area in articles (but not talk pages) not clearly related to the topic area, this will be enforced first by an Administrator placing a DS alert on their talk page with further edits handled as usual by AE.
# with thanks to BU Rob13.
Doug Weller
talk 16:51, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Remedy 2 (General Prohibition) is modified to read as follows:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Huldra at 23:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
In the Azzam Pasha quotation, Editor1 makes an addition, Editor2 removes it, Editor1 then makes the very same addition a few hours later (which Editor3 removes), and Editor1 argues they did not break 1RR as "the first edit was an edit, not a revert".
I believe that the issue raised is not only limited to ARBPIA3, but is more generally applicable. I respectfully invite the committee to make general comment on "first mover advantage" in revert wars (described more fully at WP:WINWAR#Intermediate tactics and gambits), particularly as applied to contentious topic spaces; and on if & how this should be addressed. I also respectfully invite the committee to examine the impact & effectiveness of the combination "1RR/consensus" restrictions applied to multiple articles in the ARBAP2 topic space. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 16:02, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
This is definitely a "bug" when it comes to all types of revert rules. Deference is automatically given to the position that is not the status quo, contrary to all our usual processes. The solution is to accompany all 1RR restrictions with the "Consensus required" restriction, as noted by Doug below. This has worked well on certain American politics articles this past election cycle, and it wholly addresses the issue here. This should be looked at in a context beyond just ARBPIA3. A motion amending all previous cases that currently have active 1RR restrictions to include the "Consensus required" restriction would be ideal. ~ Rob13 Talk 19:42, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Changing the definition of the 1RR rule could have wide-ranging effects. User:GorillaWarfare has recommended a community discussion. Another option is to encourage the admins who issue page-level restrictions under discretionary sanctions to try out different restrictions and see what the results are. Note that the proposed improvements to the 1RR rule by User:Huldra (above) and the one described by User:BU Rob13 to add 'consensus required' are quite different. While Huldra's rule is simple enough to be automated, BU Rob13's rule that requires consensus could make deciding a 1RR complaint more of a judgment call. Thanks to Template:2016 US Election AE we are gradually accumulating some experience with the 'discussion required' rule, the one favored by Doug Weller and BU Rob13 though some analysis would be required to see what the actual effects are. EdJohnston ( talk) 06:55, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
The proposal makes sense, since the status quo should get the advantage in a dispute between two editors. However, I'll mention one thing about the wording that doesn't seem to have been noted: it would allow one editor to do multiple reverts in the same article within 24 hours provided they were to different parts of the article. So this proposed wording is in one way less restrictive than before. However, on balance it would still be an improvement. Zero talk 12:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The general 1RR restriction in the Palestine-Israel articles case is modified to read as follows:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by DrChrissy at 23:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Over 12 months ago, I was topic banned from editing "...all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals, and the companies that produce them, broadly interpreted". I am seeking this sanction be lifted.
Since the imposition of the topic ban, I have remained a highly productive editor here on Wikipedia - please see my user page where I have listed articles I have created and significantly edited. It is clear I have not simply "waited out" this sanction.
To the best of my memory, I have not violated this topic ban, nor have I been accused of skirting around the ban or testing it. The protection of these articles has been successful.
The reasons I wish to have this sanction lifted are two-fold:
In summary, topic bans are imposed to protect articles - I believe this has been achieved. DrChrissy (talk) 23:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I am deeply concerned at statements made below that the GMO articles are now quiet - as if the disruption to this huge subject area has been due solely/largely to me. So, let's look at the extent of my editing in the GMO area prior to my topic ban. First, let me remind you of the scope of my topic ban. It is "DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals, and the companies that produce them, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed."
When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources.The second concern was my use of a Mercola publication. I accepted removal of this once it was explained to me the reason was it is not RS and did not attempt to edit war this into the article. During my topic ban I have learned to more accurately check the reliability of sources such as using Bealle's list and not using predatory journals, vanity journals, pay-for publication journals, etc.
Regardless of the outcome of this appeal (and yes, I can see the writing on the wall), I wish all members of ARBCOM a Happy and peaceful New Year. DrChrissy (talk) 00:18, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
BMK's statement is woefully short of diffs as is requested and expected at ARBCOM. In fact, the 2 diffs they do provide relate to confusion by multiple editors about the closing wording by an admin (in May 2015), and not my editing behaviour. Neither do these diffs relate to this topic ban.
BMK also accuses me of being a civil POV pusher. I have no problem with being called "civil", but if BMK believes I am a POV pusher, they must provide evidence (diffs). DrChrissy (talk) 17:36, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Please note that several of the diffs are immediately after the topic ban was imposed and several were attempts at clarification in the earliest stages of the ban.
@ Kirill Lokshin: Hi. I am pinging you because I added a section to my statement (Supplementary 1) which was just before your posting. It may have been such close timing that you missed it. DrChrissy (talk) 20:59, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
DrChrissy's statement neglects to mention some facts:
DrChrissy's topic ban was less stringent that that received by other parties to the case. This was deliberate on the Committee's part, to allow him to edit about gentically modified animals. However, less than a month later, because of DrChrissy's continued problematic editing and testing of the boundaries of his topic ban, the ban was changed by motion to read:DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified plants and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed.
DrChrissy's topic ban which currently states that "DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified plants and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed" is replaced with "DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals, and the companies that produce them, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed."
This, too, had to be clarified. It was modified on 20 May [41] to readindefinitely topic banned from editing any biomedical articles.
and had to be modified again on 3 September 2015 "to clarify 'broadly construed' for human medicine and MEDRS", to readUser:DrChrissy is topic banned from alternative medicine, broadly construed. To be clear, this includes alternative medicine for humans and animals, so Veterinary acupuncture does fall under the scope of this ban. Animal biology, behavior, health, and normal veterinary medicine does not fall under the scope of this ban so long as it does not intersect with alternative medicine topics such as acupuncture, homeopathy, TCM, energy medicine, faith healing, etc. DrChrissy is also topic banned from human medical articles and WP:MEDRS related discussions (in accordance with the previous close, and to reduce the possibility of conflict with the same group of users). This modifies the close of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive885#Topic ban for DrChrissy which imposed a topic ban from "biomedical articles". This ban may be appealed no sooner than 6 months from now, and will be logged at WP:RESTRICT.
User:DrChrissy is topic banned from alternative medicine, broadly construed. To be clear, this includes alternative medicine for humans and animals, so Veterinary acupuncture does fall under the scope of this ban. Animal biology, behavior, health, and normal veterinary medicine does not fall under the scope of this ban so long as it does not intersect with alternative medicine. DrChrissy is also topic banned from human health and medicine, and WP:MEDRS related discussions, broadly construed.
It's pretty clear DrChrissy has continued the same behavior that got them topic banned in GMOs in other topics, so the topic ban is still needed. They also neglect to mention with their not skirting their sanctions comment that they actually did skirt their topic ban, which resulted in it being broadened. They also violated the concurrent interaction ban handed to them from the same ArbCom case. Unfortunately, there is a recurrent trend of DrChrissy engaging in battleground behavior, pursuing that in vexatious requests on admin boards, and moving on to other topics once they get topic banned. After all that, they file an appeal immediately after they are able to only to have that appeal rejected because the community sees even more battleground behavior that went on in other topics after the ban. Here's a snapshot of what's been going on in the last year:
Leading up to GMO ArbCom
Since ArbCom (within the last year)
That's just after a quick search of summary level discussions, bans, etc. without getting into DrChrissy's actual comments (I'd run out of room relitigating everything within the last year). It's obvious they are not keeping their nose clean or acting on why they got banned in the first place. We're finally getting peace in the GMO topics (and nearly a whole month without a related AE case). The topic ban is still preventing further disruption as evidenced by DrChrissy's continued behavior documented in their other topic ban appeal denials. That's especially since it's clear they've been hanging around the periphery of GMO-related meta issues on editors' general behavior that have just been sanctioned in the topic.
I'd urge Arbs to continue preventing this disruption in the GMO topic as it's already been made clear DrChrissy cannot handle nuanced topic bans as they are requesting. That's especially with DrChrissy's pre-case actions being the straw that broke the camel's back (for eventual better or worse) that led to the opening of the original GMO case. If they have since not been able to appeal their other (and earlier) topic ban due to the same battleground behavior, that's also a good indication the more recent GMO ban should remain. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 04:21, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Context matters, opinion doesn't. I have zero hope that anything I say here will affect the outcome of this appeal, but perhaps if someone questions the modus operandi of the encyclopedia enough someone somewhere will begin to look more deeply into how we deal with editors. The extensions to this sanction were not added because Dr Chrissy deliberately tried to skirt the boundaries of the sanctions but because the boundaries of the sanction were in the original wording, unclear. For example:
There is disagreement about the close on 16 May of the topic-ban discussion about DrChrissy. (See discussion about it here, here and here.) Beeblebrox closed it as a ban from "biomedical articles," [68][69] and told DrChrissy that she was banned from "human biomedicine." [70] He later changed his advice to DrChrissy to "biomedical articles, broadly construed," [71] in response to a request that the ban include nonhuman animals. There was barely a mention of animals during the discussion. DrChrissy is an academic in a mainstream university who specializes in animal behaviour and animal welfare. He has written animal articles without a problem, including Feather pecking, Cognitive bias in animals, Deception in animals, Pregnancy in fish, Declawing of crabs and Self-anointing in animals. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect him to write about animals without mentioning health issues, and he needs to be able to write without looking over his shoulder. So the question is whether the biomedical topic ban extends (or should extend) to nonhuman animals. Sarah (SV) (talk) 17:17, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
We have to be careful in saying that an editor is a POV pusher, or doesn't care about the encyclopedia as a whole because they describe a sanction in terms we don't agree with. No one says an editor has to agree with a sanction, but what we do say is that the editor has to abide by the sanction which assumes that in the first place the sanction is clearly worded. We can't accuse an editor of stepping over boundaries if the boundaries are not clear or do not exist.
As a general statement: One of the situations which occurs on Wikipedia is that we get extremely knowledgeable people who begin to edit without the background many experienced editors have. These editors don't necessarily have the understanding of what Wikipedia considers to be reliable sources and in attempting to add sources are treated to sometimes, and even often, nasty incivilities. Not surprisingly, newer editors can respond by digging in. Experienced editors often respond with annoyance and, "this is a time sink". Yes it is, but this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, and part of that is to use the expertise of other editors where it can be the most useful. What is always missing from these equations is the response of the experienced to the inexperienced, the disrespect shown to those who are actually off-Wikipedia experts and the ownership of a self - selected group towards certain kinds of articles. I understand there are those who are attempting to disrupt with information that biases the reader; we have to be able to delineate those from those who are learning the ropes. I probably wouldn't have responded to this clarification given the chances that anything will change this appeal not because the arbs are unfair or are not knowledgable but because the process cannot give them kind of information we need to come to a fair conclusion, and human beings, all of us, are not un biased or without our own belief systems often unknown to the owners, but today I feel somewhat fed up, not with the arbs who I always assume are doing their best but with a system that doesn't work very well.
The arbs might be better served here if they actually asked DrChrissy some questions about his editing rather than take for granted the comments here which lack context and are opinions. ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 18:54, 29 December 2016 (UTC))
It would be a mistake to rescind this sanction. This is one of the (too few) cases where an ArbCom case and subsequent DS and ARCA's pretty much removed all disruption from a huge swath of articles. Aside from a few drive-by SPA's that quickly disappear, the entire suite of GMO related articles has been relatively quiet. DrChrissy contributes well in other areas but still doesn't seem to grasp why all these sanctions were placed on them. Their insistence that they weren't found to be pushing a particular POV, despite the evidence presented in so many arenas that lead to the sanctions, or broadening of sanctions, is baffling to me. It's something they have claimed before and something they are still claiming here. This suggests they still don't see what the original issues were with their editing, such as adding almost nothing but negative and often badly sourced material to GMO articles.
I have to note as well that Olive mentions above that many of these comments lack context. To that I'd like to point out that most, if not all, the Arbs here were presented evidence in various venues, some going all the way back to the GMO case I believe, so I'm sure they are aware of the context. Capeo ( talk) 15:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Mathsci at 06:26, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
During my appeal last year, Doug Weller corresponded with me about my voluntary topic ban from this area. It had been in force since August 2010 and has been adhered to. All restrictions were removed in December 2010, on the initiative of Newyorkbrad, but my voluntary ban stayed in force. I have not edited in this area since July 2010. Since then, encouraged by the arbitration committee, I have helped administrators and checkusers on and off wiki with sockpuppetry in this topic area. That is still happening.
I would prefer to return to the position adopted in December 2010 if possible. The topic ban, which I was first asked about in an email from Courcelles, might give administrators the wrong impression about my editing history, i.e. that I have edited wikipedia with ideological prejudices. That seems to have happened once already.
I would therefore like the phrase "This is to be enforced as a standard topic ban" to be struck from the motion, thus returning to the status quo of my voluntary topic ban.
I am completely happy with the rest of the current phrasing, which was modified from the original email proposal. This request is independent of and does not concern any interaction bans. Mathsci ( talk)
I'm quite confused about this distinction between a voluntary topic ban and a "standard" topic ban. One may voluntarily agree to an unblock condition, but once the unblock is made, that condition is no longer voluntary. This restriction should either remain unchanged or be lifted entirely. If this editor has been as helpful as he says he has been for this many years without issue, I'm inclined to support lifting the restriction entirely. ~ Rob13 Talk 08:08, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
We've had no movement on this for a while, but everyone who's commented so far seems to be fine with lifted the topic ban. It would be ideal to close this in that direction soon so as not to leave the editor hanging for longer than the two weeks they already have been. ~ Rob13 Talk 16:15, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#Modified_by_motion_(December_2010) reads: "Remedy 6 (" Mathsci topic-banned by mutual consent") of the Race and Intelligence case is terminated, effective immediately." So if above Mathsci requests "That the topic ban imposed in April 2016 be replaced by the voluntary topic ban adopted in August/December 2010" (emphasis added) I'm not sure whether they intend to observe a (binding/voluntary) avoidance of the topic, or the December 2010 termination decision (which holds no commitment whatsoever to avoid the topic).
Mathsci's commitment to indefinite voluntary topic bans can be illustrated as follows: in August 2016 Mathsci committed to "As I also wrote in the request [i.e.: "At ANI I also voluntarily committed myself to ceasing editing 2016 Nice attack or its talk page indefinitely"], I will not edit the 2016 Nice attack article and its talk page". Mathsci resumed editing the 2016 Nice attack page and its talk page in November ( [56], [57]). Their edits to the mainspace article and its talk page in November-December are entirely constructive and unproblematic afaics – only illustrating the "indefinite" timeframe being translated to less than four months (also without prejudice where and when Mathsci may have obtained permission to shorten the "indefinite" part of their voluntary avoidance of the topic).
The discussion of Mathsci's amendment request appears largely semantic thus far, if you ask me: translating it into a proposal free of such side-tracking semantics:
Rescind the
The unban has been granted on the condition that Mathsci continue to refrain from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to the race and intelligence topic area, broadly construed. This is to be enforced as a standard topic ban.part of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#Modified_by_motion_(April_2016)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Mathsci (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
logs ·
filter log ·
block user ·
block log) was
unbanned in April 2016 under the condition that he refrain from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to the race and intelligence topic area, broadly construed
. This restriction is now rescinded. The interaction bans to which Mathsci is a party remain in force.