This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 75 | ← | Archive 79 | Archive 80 | Archive 81 | Archive 82 | Archive 83 | → | Archive 85 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Robert McClenon ( talk) at 17:14, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
There are currently multiple WP:ANI threads concerning the hypothesis that the Indo-European languages originated in India, as opposed to the hypothesis accepted by most scholarship that these languages originated to the west of India and spread both east into India by migration and west into Europe by migration. They include Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents# Massive POV pushing problem at WP:FRINGE and Indo-Aryan topics. My question is whether tendentious and disruptive editing about this aspect of the ancient history of India is subject to WP:ARBIPA, in which case discretionary sanctions are applicable, or whether WP:ARBIPA only applies to the modern history of the subcontinent. Robert McClenon ( talk) 17:14, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
No need for clarification: of course DS applies. The ideological fight over the origins of the Indo-Aryans is a classic hotspot of modern nationalist discourses in India, and the backdrop of modern Hindu nationalism is the one thing that keeps these disputes alive on Wikipedia and makes them so much politically charged. This is precisely what the DS are for. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I am surprised to see this asked. The sanctions are exactly what they say. Time is not of the essence and, as Fut. Perf. notes, the particular issues being referred to are a well-known hotspot on WP, certainly in part because of what is often descrived as the Hindutva "revisionist" approach to history. - Sitush ( talk) 21:57, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
< !-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by John Carter ( talk) at 15:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Requesting clarification if the existing i-ban prohibits taking the other party involved to ANI for input of the broader community in the event of further obvious stalking which by avoiding explicit mention of me does not necessarily explicitly violate the i-ban, but is clearly of a STALKing nature, and, if it does, amendment to permit it, with of course reasonable consequences to me as the possible filer should the request there be found to be poorly based or otherwise improper. John Carter ( talk) 15:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I have no idea what the poorly worded statement above based on non-existent evidence even means, so I can't respond to it. This entire case is about John Carter casting aspersions. It's why the Ebionites 3 arbitration case was filed; it's why he was stripped of his tools; it's why we have this I-ban. Despite the restriction, he has used every available opportunity to continue this aggressive behavior at ARCA, AE, and on the talk pages of other editors. He can't seem to stop himself from doing it. Ignocrates ( talk) 17:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Both those folks were blocked JC, I as a result of AE request by Ignocrates. NE Ent 23:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC) Note/clarify: it was not my intent to offer any opinion here, simply to notify the committee that the parties may not currently post here (unless the committee directs some action to enable that). NE Ent 00:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Cambalachero ( talk) at 21:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I am currently topic banned from articles that talk about Latin American history. As clarified here, the line between history and modern times in Argentina has been set in 1983 (end of the National Reorganization Process dictatorship, and restoration of democracy). The articles listed are the articles about the presidents of Argentina since 1983, and the Pope. As such, the bulk of their articles is/would be about their presidencies (or papacy), already within the allowed limits, and do not require any special exemption. However, the sections about their early lives and early careers usually need to explain the dictatorship and the dirty war, to provide the appropiate context. In other cases, the aftermath of the dirty war still sparked controversies in the national politics (see the dirty war article, sections "Truth commission, decrees revoked", "Continuing controversies" and "Repeal of Pardon Laws and renewal of prosecutions").
Have in mind that the original discussion that led to the case was about articles from the XIX century. Those small exemptions will not go anywhere near the original controversy.
In relation to modern Argentine events, I wrote the featured article 2013 Rosario gas explosion, helped to promote the articles Néstor Kirchner, Argentine legislative election, 2013 and 2012 Buenos Aires rail disaster to the "In the news" section of the main page. I also wrote new articles, featured in the DYK section, for 18A, 2012 cacerolazo in Argentina, 2012 fiscal austerity in Argentina, 2013 Buenos Aires train crash, Argentine quota law, Boudougate, Broad Front UNEN, Eduardo Arnold, Madero Center, Mario Poli, Periodismo para todos, Public image of Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, la Cámpora. Cambalachero ( talk) 17:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
As a professional historian, I agree that it is difficult to draw a "line" between what is history and what is the present. Nonetheless, for the sake of understanding the subject, historians have (time and again) made these lines (they vary, of course, depending on the context and historian). ArbComm has also indeed drawn a line in this case.
Regardless of that, the purpose of ArbComm is to focus on user behavior. Cambalachero has conducted himself exceptionally, and has provided a series of positive contributions for the project since his topic ban (including a featured article). This positive behavior should be far more important for the committee's amendment decision than anything else.
Sincerely.-- MarshalN20 Talk 15:50, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Notwithstanding other restrictions on their editing, Cambalachero is permitted to edit all content on the articles Raúl Alfonsín, Carlos Menem, Fernando de la Rúa, Adolfo Rodríguez Saá, Eduardo Duhalde, Néstor Kirchner, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner and Pope Francis; as well as their talk pages. They may also make any edits reasonably necessary for those articles to go through the good article, peer review, or featured article processes. If Cambalachero engages in misconduct in respect of any of these articles, this exemption may be revoked either in part or in whole by an uninvolved administrator. Any subsequent appeal should be made at the requests for clarification and amendment page. The administrator must log the revocation on the Argentine history case page, together with a rationale supported by diffs.
Enacted - S Philbrick (Talk) 15:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Roger Davies talk 05:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by — Mythdon at 21:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I am requesting an amendment concerning the restriction barring me from verifiablity/reliable sources that came as a result of this clarification and this discussion
This restriction came as the result of me having unwilling to produce guideline for tokusatsu articles as outlined in the decision at the closure of the case while persisting in the behavior that led to various urges to seek outside input and work more collaboratively of my views regarding verifiability. There not long after I received a topic ban from Tokusatsu/Ryulong after this enforcement of the gratitious mention I made of Ryulong
I have not edited the tokusatsu articles since my unblock given as I held myself to voluntary restriction from editing the topic area
The edits I make these days include contributing to the articles I have interest including television stations and The Sims and making minor corrections to errors in articles like spelling and grammer and vandal fighting. I realize my activity has gone down a bunch since my unblock with having let go of all the old habits and old behaviors that led to my September 2009 banning which six months later when I repeated my habits I was blocked indef. My edits gone down a bit since my unblock and I go into spurts of being active and then inactive and then active again
Having no longer any interest to edit the topic area as I outgrew the subject area and having held myself to the voluntary restriction for the security of allowing myself get over the emotional attachment to the articles and to force myself to be productive in other areas. I had been asked and advised by various editors to go find other topic areas to edit while I was editing the topic area and honestly I can say I never made one positive contribution to the topic area but since my unblock I have made productive contributions to other topic areas with referenced content. I have been stumped on what to do about the situation about me being restricted commenting on reliable sources as on one hand I feel it be wrong to only return to the topic area as part of a process pertaining to a remedy but on the other hand if I have nothing to offer the topic area then I think if I just learned from the behavior that led to it that I can make things a fresh start in other topic areas and a new opportunity to avoid the confrontations and behaviors that led my past sanctions
But having learned from the behavior that led to it from my strict interpretations of policy and failing to collaborate with others about my stances and refusing to produce a guideline, what I am requesting is to lift the no commenting on verifiablity and reliable sources sanctions. I have been watching over the topic area even though I no longer edit it and none of the arguments that occurred that led to the guideline remedy are happening as most of those disputes during the time I edited was by a certain editor (myself) doing whatever he could to get the topic area to where he saw fit as most of the never ending disputes were initiated by myself. So the way I see it is this restrictions purpose has been served in having learned from the behavior and its been five years and a lot of the topic areas problems left when I was topic banned and is now only moot as if I were to source an article I would not be allowed to discuss it if an editor were to question my edits
If the sanction should be lifted I will promise to avoid any behavior that led to the sanctions and urges on verifiability and will work more toward an effort to collaborate on verifiablity and to let go of the old strict interpreations of policies including verifiablity which I already no longer am hung up on strict disruptive intepretation of policy. But if the arbcom decision should be that I return to the topic area to help produce a guideline then thats what I will do. Most of the arbs that were arbs at the time this was put in place are no longer arbs and I recommend all arbs take a look at the case before coming to any decision. I will be bound by any result the arbcom should come of this. Thank you for taking the time to read. — Mythdon 21:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Noted. I think this is fairest way to go about as opportunity to further work on old past behavior showing I have infact learned from my past sanctions. From what I read of this is that the restriction is to remain in place but to now both simplistically and broadly construe the intent of the remedy. I shall keep this all in mind in my future editing even after the restriction ends. All is noted here and it all works out. — Mythdon 00:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I know much of this case from start to finish, and there is a long history so there will no doubt be some uncertainty regarding what happened here. To bring some context to this, after the original case remedies were enacted Mythdon had initiated a significant number of "clarification/amendment" requests (brace yourself as there's a bit to read in each: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]). The third request/diff is the discussion where this restriction was imposed by way of motion, and his last request is found in the last diff where the site ban in 2009 was imposed. I understand Mythdon appealed to the committee but ultimately his 2012 appeal was directed to the community. The appeal was successful (the community agreed to lift the site ban).
Overall:
I hope that assists somewhat anyway. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 07:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I was around back when Mythdon was originally banned. At the time, he was known for being extremely terse, unfriendly, and overly concerned with trivialities. See his first RfA back in 2009 to get a sense of what I mean by that. But I don't think it's really relevant anymore, as he's clearly changed quite a bit. He has expressed a genuine understanding of where he went wrong, and as far as I can tell, there have been no problems since being unblocked.
This sanction serves no further purpose and should be lifted. Kurtis (talk) 09:20, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
The remedy "Mythdon further restricted (4 August 2009)" is revoked. Mythdon is instead restricted as follows for the longer of one year or 500 edits. If, in the opinion of any uninvolved administrator, Mythdon: a) behaves disruptively at XFD discussions;
b) unreasonably nominates multiple articles for deletion; or
c) unreasonably places maintenance tags on multiple articles;
then Mythdon may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.
Enacted with Mythadon's current edit count being 8910. -- L235 ( talk) As a courtesy, please ping me when replying. 06:51, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Ncmvocalist ( talk) at 18:47, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
My first request for clarification concerns the AC procedures - standard provision for appeals and modifications. In particular, the section entitled "Modification by administrators" in the following situation:
1A) An administrator X blocks an user for a period of time after reviewing a complaint alleging a breach of a topic ban (which was imposed as a case remedy). After the block has expired, administrator Y imposes another block of the same or a longer duration for the same complaint (and where there are no further breaches). Administrator Y did not obtain prior affirmative consent/agreement from administrator X, or at AN, AE, or here, for imposing the further block. Can the committee please confirm in those circumstances whether administrator Y's further block would be considered a modification of administrator X's block, and that such an action is unauthorised?
My second request for clarification concerns the AE sanction handling case (principle 3.1.2 - Deliberate and careful use of discretionary sanctions) in the following situation:
2A) An administrator X refuses to block an user after reviewing a complaint alleging a breach of a topic ban (which was imposed as a case remedy). Other administrators opine on the issue at AE and there appears to be division regarding the appropriateness of any block (and the appropriate duration for a block even if it is agreed). Administrator Y unilaterally imposes a block (where there is clearly no pressing need to), and did not obtain prior affirmative consent/agreement from administrator X, or at AN, AE, or here for imposing the block. If there is a division in opinion at AE regarding the appropriateness and duration of a block, has the committee indicated to its admins that they can unilaterally impose a block anyway? Does principle 3.1.2 only apply to discretionary sanctions? Or does that principle apply to requested enforcement of case remedies too?
I have listed 1A and 2A above only, as I may have a follow up under each. Thanks, Ncmvocalist ( talk) 19:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I feel it's worth noting that the situation described in 2A just played out in a recently closed AE request (it's still there but hatted). I assume that part was unmentioned in the hopes of avoiding a dramastorm, so I won't name it directly. That said, I consider it valuable context that arbs should be aware of and review. 204.101.237.139 ( talk) 18:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm glad to see this has been asked already, I was about to. I think the answers so far to 1A are pretty reasonable and uncontroversial. I'm more interested in Arbs' answers to 2A. Normally, an admin can take unilateral AE action without waiting for a discussion, and then the normal AE rules apply to reverse that action: unlike a normal admin action, consensus would be required to overturn the AE action. However, when a discussion is already underway, and there is no consensus on the blocking (or a preliminary consensus not to block), it seems unfair to unilaterally make the decision to block, and then insist on a new discussion to overturn it. If it really is acceptable to do that, could not an admin with an opposing viewpoint decide to "officially warn" someone, or block them for 1 second, and then close the AE request, preventing any further blocking without a brand new discussion? (I'm not advocating that, of course, just pointing out that it kind of follows from the answers to 1A). AE enforcement is meant to streamline things, but in the scenario described above, it's being used instead as a trump card. It shouldn't be. If there is an ongoing discussion at AE with differing viewpoints on blocking among the uninvolved admins, an admin shouldn't wade in and block before a consensus develops. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 18:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
The principle of "do it first so the other admin will be wheel-warring" has been discussed before, without any solid answers. Zugzwang is a rough equivalent. Why not recognize that valid issue raised by Floq above - and issue a sua sponte dictum that blocks should generally require the initial input of (say) three admins in order to have standing against a simple reversal by another admin? Thus reducing the value of "first move wins." Collect ( talk) 20:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
While the IP has alluded to it, I'm going to make it explicit. This is another damn "hypothetical situation" thread that's actually not at all hypothetical, and like it or not the Arb's responses are going to be read in that context. Yep, it's another damn Malleus/Eric Corbett thread: link to discussion, closure.
Unlike most threads involving Eric Corbett, it was dealt with in a reasonable amount of time, after a reasonable discussion, and resulted in a reasonable final decision that wasn't followed by a firestorm or wheel warring. The ArbCom should be very cautious in how it approaches the question in 2A, in that the question seems to be exploring ways that an ArbCom decision to impose discretionary sanctions can be nullified by a single admin. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 21:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I was one of the admins who opined against a block in the "hypothetical" scenario. I disagree with the block for reasons I've stated elsewhere (mainly that it is based on an overly literal interpretation of the remedy with no regard for its spirit), but at the end of the day AE cannot afford to become deadlocked like ANI whenever a big name is involved. The solution? More objective, level-headed admins at AE. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
As the admin who made the block discussed in the second question, I'm offering the following comments:
It seems to to me that the "first mover advantage" is a long-standing Wiki problem which has been dealt with traditionally by consensus and discussion, and application of policy.
The rule making AE non-overturnable effectively gives a form of absolute power to the Admins who frequent AE, which has been abused, just as the absolute power of checkusers has been abused (and historically, almost every other form of power, both absolute and otherwise).
So the instant problem of Sandstein's "overly literal interpretation of the remedy with no regard for its spirit" - and indeed his history of such narrow and binary interpretations, not unusual amongst the Wikipedia demographic, really pales into insignificance with the systemic problem that we have created of non-overturnable admin actions. It would be better, if still not ideal, if these actions were subject to normal community scrutiny.
I understand, of course, that the idea is to prevent an infinite regress. More important though is the inequality
The current arrangement breaks this in no uncertain manner.
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 16:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC).
I was pinged to comment here. I do indeed remember both this case, and the early stages of the discussion about revisions to the discretionary sanctions process that were made, in part, as a result of that case. The clear intention at the time was to address the fact that AE seems to attract administrators who like to mete out sanctions regardless of the state of the discussion of a request (i.e., to sanction even in situations where a preponderance of administrators do not believe a sanction is appropriate) or just as seriously to interpret the "consensus" of administrators as supporting sanction even in situations where almost all other administrators would say there was either (a) no consensus or (b) a consensus not to sanction. Arbitration enforcement is in some ways even more powerful than arbitration decisions themselves, because at an arbcom case there must be a clear majority supporting a sanction before it can be placed. My read of the two situations described above is as follows:
Those were the intentions at the time of the case, and in the early discussions for improving the procedures. Hope that helps. Risker ( talk) 07:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
If this is meant to clarify a situation like the recent Sandstein/Eric Corbett brouhaha, Ncmvocalist's 2A) should say:
The decision to block wasn't unilateral because Guettarda agreed that EC had violated his ban. [8]
Principle 2.2.1 applies here: Administrator's are not perfect. Go Phightins! acted quickly (5 minutes [9]) after I asked for admin help [10] at WT:WER, as did NE Ent (3 minutes [11]) after I asked a second time, [12] otherwise they might have realized that EC really had broken his topic ban and simply removed EC's comments per the GGTF ArbCom Remedies, which is all that I asked for, before I went to AE.
If admins were perfect, Go Phigtins! or NE Ent would have either removed the comments as I asked, blocked EC (which I did not ask for), or started a discussion here at AE, per Principle 3.1.2. -- Lightbreather ( talk) 21:39, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
For User:Lightbreather's concerns of casting aspersions please see the section below where I have provided the requested evidence. Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 23:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
While I see the point of those that say that DS has never required consensus, I think its important to distinguish the difference between not requiring a consensus to do something , and doing something in spite of consensus to the contrary. If an admin sees something requiring immediate unilateral action, they should do so. but when they are aware of pre-existing consensus to the contrary, or at least significant debate, then the unilateral action can seem WP:POINTy. Obviously there is a gradient there and lots of grey area about what would be acceptable vs what would not be. Certainly no action/sanction required in this "hypothetical" but some guidance about the gradient could resolve potential future issues Gaijin42 ( talk) 23:02, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Since this seems to have been instigated by a particular case, and there has been much discussion about it, I would like to make a point about said case. No appeal I saw was made against the block, except for a frivolous suggestion to have the block extended by a day. This suggests that the defendant felt, at some level at least, that the block was justified. If I was subject to a block I felt was unfair, I think I would make an appeal for the case to be examined, to continue editing, but also to try to prevent injustices in the future from occurring. If I felt the block, and the duration of the block, was at some level justified, I would probably not bother. -- Mrjulesd (talk) 12:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Now that I've left the Committee, I don't plan to comment regularly in these threads; and I have nothing to say about the specific disputes surrounding this and other pending requests, other than that they are the sort of infighting I'm glad not to be responsible for policing any more. My only purpose in commenting here is to respond to the comment from Sandstein about his approach to AE, because while I respect his dedication and sincerity, I have a different view.
When as an arbitrator I voted to topic-ban an editor from a topic, it was with the intention that that editor should steer clear of that topic, because his or her participation in that topic was unhelpful to the encyclopedia or the community or both. Blocking is, in many cases, the appropriate response when an editor intentionally disregards a topic-ban, and I have always appreciated the work of the admins on AE and elsewhere who enforce our decisions, including with blocking where necessary.
That being said, speaking only for myself, when I proposed or voted to topic-ban an editor from X topic ("broadly construed" or otherwise), it was not my intention that "this means that [I] expect[ed] this editor to be blocked in each and every case in which they make a X-related edit outside of the policy exceptions, no matter what the circumstances may be." (Emphasis added.) As I said, in many, perhaps most, cases an editor topic-banned from X who edits on X should indeed be blocked. However, enforcement of ArbCom sanctions, like sane enforcement of anything, requires the guided exercise of judgment and discretion. No matter how carefully the Committee crafts its remedies, there will always be borderline cases in which editors and admins can disagree in good faith as to whether the topic-ban applied. ( It is not possible even in theory for any decision to anticipate every possible application of a remedy or every borderline situation that may come up.) There will be instances in which an editor may believe in good faith that his or her edit was permissible, and when told it wasn't, will accept the ruling and sin no more. There are editors who faithfully abide by a topic-ban for a long period of time, making useful edits in other areas, and then stray in an isolated instance.
An approach of automatically blocking every such editor in "each and every instance ... no matter what the circumstances may be" may have the advantages Sandstein urges. These are, if I understand him correctly, that discretion and subjectivity in the enforcement process are reduced, and that sanctioned editors will steer clear of boundary-testing. Those may be valid arguments for not giving already-sanctioned editors the benefit of the doubt when they are causing problems. But there are also disadvantages to automatically blocking without considering the circumstances, including the creation of a culture where minor, fleeting, and relatively harmless transgressions become the subject of lengthy debate and controversy, compounding the "battleground" atmosphere that has often led the Committee to impose sanctions such as topic-bans in the first place.
These are general thoughts borne of experience, not focused on any specific block or case, and of course everyone else's MMV. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 15:37, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Concerning what constitutes an admin action, well, this is trickier. In general, declining to act has generally not been considered an admin action and, so, another admin may decide to act without violating the prohibition on modifying someone else's action without consent or consensus. At the same time, an admin who decided to impose a 1-sec. block to prevent others from imposing harsher sanctions would clearly be trying to game the system and could probably be sanctioned himself. My personal feeling is that the only action which qualifies as admin action, in these cases, would be closing (and hatting) an AE thread without action.
Finally, concerning the issue of de minimis, yes, Sandstein, admins are allowed to exercise their best judgement when enforcing an arbcom-imposed restriction; sometimes, a block will be needed, others a warning will suffice and others the violation may even be too inconsequential to warrant any action and could even lead to a boomerang on the OP. We trust administrators, that's why we have tasked them with enforcing our decisions, we don't want you to become automata. Your common sense is valued. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Lightbreather ( talk) at 22:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Following the GGTF ArbCom case, I proposed an Iban between Hell in a Bucket and myself. [14] He declined. I have left the offer open on my talk page, [15] without reply. However, today, Hell in a Bucket again called me a liar, [16] as he has in the past, without evidence. He also regularly belittles my efforts to create women's spaces to help address the gender gap.
Could an admin please place this Iban? Lightbreather ( talk) 20:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Hell in a Bucket: The link you gave shows that I was blocked for abusing multiple accounts. I maintain that I legitimately edited while logged out, but Mike V disagreed. That doesn't mean that I "lied" anymore than Mike V "lied" (he didn't) for coming to a different conclusion about my reason for editing while logged out. Lightbreather ( talk) 23:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
@ GorillaWarfare and Roger Davies: You were involved [17] [18] in the discussion where I originally proposed this. [19] I don't think this is an unreasonable request, do you? Lightbreather ( talk) 23:07, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Links to vitriole Hell in a Bucket has spewed at or about me since the close of the GGTF Arbcom:
The allegations of lies and not AGF without evidence ( making allegations against other editors or casting aspersions) really bothers me, as well as the contempt he shows ( discussion of problems and issues) for my efforts to create welcoming spaces for women to improve the GENDER GAP. Lightbreather ( talk) 15:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Two kinds of pork: 200 words of your spin on the situation, no diffs. Also, as of today almost 48% (it's been higher) of my edits are to content, compared to your 26%. These rumors that besmirch my honesty and productivity really should stop. Lightbreather ( talk) 15:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Euryalus: Why can't the two of you just avoid each other, as suggested by GW last year? The thing is, I believe that I have been avoiding him, but I don't think he's been avoiding me. In addition to the numbered list of comments he's made to or about me, did you catch the one that I gave in my first paragraph [31] (yesterday, and why I came here) where he says of me I always follow the policy once a liar always a liar and that's a consequence of [Lightbreather's] deception? The spreading around his opinion about me, that he thinks I'm a liar, and his repeated attacks of my attempts to create a women-only space to help (I hope) narrow the WP gender gap... These things are getting tiresome and they're against the GGTF ArbCom principles. Lightbreather ( talk) 22:40, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Karanacs: I think you missed the diff in my first paragraph. Since others seem to have missed it, too, I have added it to the numbered list. Lightbreather ( talk) 22:48, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Hell in a Bucket: I. Did. NOT. Lie. Please stop calling me a liar. Lightbreather ( talk) 23:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: When I first proposed a volunteer Iban between myself and HIAB, back in December, on my talk page, you said:
That is why I came here.
@ GorillaWarfare: Could you please comment? You were in that discussion, too, as was HIAB, though he did not agree to the proposal. Lightbreather ( talk) 23:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Salvio giuliano: The only other forum where I've asked for an Iban between myself and HIAB was my own talk page, in December, and HIAB was involved in the discussion. When he declined, I let it drop until his recent comments, which are against the GGTF ArbCom principles of Fair criticism, Making allegations against other editors, and Discussion of problems and issues.
@ Gaijin42: When I said what I said about WP:CHK, I meant that I expected that I would get to talk privately with a CU (which I tried to do, but it never happened) and explain exactly why I was editing logged out. I was stalked on- and off-wiki last year, so yes, I was editing logged out for privacy. I was busted ultimately because apparently IP editors aren't supposed to be involved in "discussions internal to the project." (I never found out - did any of the other dozen or so IP editors involved in that discussion get blocked for socking?) That only leaves the joe job after the fact, and that wasn't me. (HIAB seems to think that since my block was extended for it, that "proves" it was me, and for me to deny it is a lie.)
Maybe this will help. On 3 June 2010, HIAB was blocked for personal attacks. HIAB claimed, I'm blocked for being direct and open. [32] Is he a liar? Should I start following him around to various talk pages and tell people he's a liar? Lightbreather ( talk) 00:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
As for HIAB's opposition to my GGTF-related proposals, I don't object to his opposition - lot's of people are opposed to it - but I don't like the trash talk, which may be generally accepted on Wikipedia, but it's against the ArbCom GGTF principles, so I'd like him to knock it off. Lightbreather ( talk) 23:56, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Sitush: IBAN, which LB has consistently tried to obtain... There are only two other editors that I have sought an Iban for. The first we observed a successful, voluntary two-way ban for a while, but she quit editing months ago. The other, which I wanted as a one-way, was never enacted. This one, which I am volunteering for, is a two-way, and the only other forum where I've proposed it was my own talk page, where HIAB declined.
Also, would you describe let the grown up women stay where they should be, blatantly discriminative drivel, and I don't take shit like this serious as "valid criticism" (especially under the GGTF ArbCom principles)? Lightbreather ( talk) 00:36, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Sitush: You link to two admin-help requests for removal of content involving Eric Corbett in your own evidence Where? I don't see that here. Lightbreather ( talk) 01:07, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Sitush: Anne's criticism was on her page, in a discussion that I started with her, and its tone was respectful and polite, even if it expressed opposition to my proposal. Compare that to HIAB's comments above. Also, did you know that your last reply to me had at least a dozen direct uses of "you" or "your." Perhaps that helps your mission. However, what you do and what I do off-wiki have no place here. Lightbreather ( talk) 01:24, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Euryalus: Re your question, all of my evidence is related to the GGTF.
-- Lightbreather ( talk) 14:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Hell in a Bucket: "Vexatious" means "causing or tending to cause annoyance, frustration, or worry." Which editor is more vexatious? The one who follows WP protocol re a conduct dispute, or the one who WP:HOUNDS? I am sorry if the former is more vexatious to those who must evaluate the complaint, but the hounding became vexatious enough for me that I am seeking a remedy. (Note that I cite policy while you cite essays.) Lightbreather ( talk) 16:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ EChastain: I didn't quote GorillaWarfare. Do you mean that I placed a confusing diff?
Also, with the exception of Karanacs and Hawkeye7, all of the editors who've given statements here were active between Jan 27 and Feb 2: You, TKOP, Gaijin, and Sitush at AE, ANI, and ARCA; HIAB at ARCA and SPI; me at AE, ARCA, and SPI. Lightbreather ( talk) 18:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
ping=anyone who cares: Personal info I deleted from my user page early on in my WP editing career because I realized how hostile this place is. I never dreamed that personal info that was on my page for a matter of a few weeks at the most would be sought out by someone on a mission at some future date to share with a group. Why Hell in a Bucket chose to point it out to a couple dozen people at an ArbCom? I'm past caring - I have since had it permanently revdeled,
[36] - but I sure would like an Iban so he doesn't keep pestering me.
Lightbreather (
talk) 01:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Re modus operandi of EChastain and HIAB:
[37]
[38]
[39]
[40]
[41]
[42]
@ Euryalus: I came here rather than ANI for the reason I gave earlier. When I first proposed a volunteer Iban between myself and HIAB, back in December, on my talk page, Roger Davies advised: We could add a FOF and remedy to that via a request at WP:ARCA, or an IBAN could be handled at WP:AE under the FFTF discretionary sanctions. -- Lightbreather ( talk) 13:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Courcelles, Euryalus, GorillaWarfare, Salvio giuliano, and Thryduulf: Between February 1, 2014, and January 31, 2015, HIAB started 13 discussions at ANI, and I started 12. If that is the measure, I'd say he is every bit as "vexatious" as I. I would be accept, albeit begrudgingly, being topic banned from administrative noticeboards, as Salvio has suggested, if HIAB is also topic banned from administrative noticeboards, although can we give the ban a length? Say six months? Lightbreather ( talk) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: Can you clarify? Do you propose that I would need to get permission to go to WP:BLPN, WP:NPOVN, WP:NORN, WP:RSN, and so on? As I just suggested, I am open to being banned - say for six months - from ANI, as Salvio suggested, if HIAB is banned, too (based on the evidence that he used that forum at least as often as I). Lightbreather ( talk) 16:23, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I had forgotten about this, but re-discovered it while counting up our activity at ANI in the past year, have all the arbitrators considered/remembered that HIAB was warned in the Banning Policy case last fall?
Now I will try to just watch the end of this unfold, unless an arbitrator pings me. I will be entertaining house guests for the next 24 to 36 hours. Lightbreather ( talk) 16:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: I collected that info manually this a.m. My granddaughters are having lunch and then they'll nap. I'll be able to give you more info from the last six months then. Lightbreather ( talk) 21:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: For the six months from 8/6/14 through 2/6/15 I count:
If I'm a "vexatious litigant" (and I don't buy that I am), then it appears to me that HIAB is also a "vexatious litigant."
May I ask, is it cool to be going to the arbitrators' talk pages to post the same appeal re a case here? Today, HIAB has posted the same appeal [43] on your talk page and the talk pages of @ DGG, Dougweller, Courcelles, Guerillero, AGK, Euryalus, and Thryduulf:.
And can you clarify, isn't some of what he brought up in that appeal - references to off-wiki activity - forbidden in these processes? (Or am I mistaken?) -- Lightbreather ( talk) 22:23, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Karanacs: You say you went back to Sept., but you have two items from May 2014 listed for me. Did you mean to include those? Lightbreather ( talk) 23:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Doncram, Karanacs, NE Ent, and Sitush: Getting ready to call it a night, but since it was brought up in several places here, the result of the Kaffeekltach MfD was page kept, [44] and WMF Legal says it does not violate the non discrimination policy. [45] Lightbreather ( talk) 01:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Sitush: I included you in the ping because you linked to it in your comment here on Feb. 3. [46] Lightbreather ( talk) 02:02, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: This has been dragging on for a while, and maybe I've missed or forgotten something, but where did I ignore specific advice about how to proceed?
@ Roger Davies: I am so sorry if I seemed to ignore you. I started this in good faith based on what you said on my talk page on 17 Dec 2014. [47] The advice you posted on 18 Dec was on my talk page, too, but it was in reply to Hell in a Bucket. [48] And the statement you made here on 2 Feb was in reply to Thryduulf and didn't ping me or include my name. [49] Honestly, if you had pinged me and said, "Lightbreather, ARCA is the wrong place for this, please take it to [board]," I would have done so. Lightbreather ( talk) 00:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
User:Lightbreather as you seem to have forgot here is the evidence [ [52]]. Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 22:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
I think total out of that there is one that is directly addressed to Lightbreather 00:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
User:Roger Davies,
User:Jehochman, and
User:Dougweller double standards maybe just a little? Would you care to opine on these? I am curious on why I am apparently being singled out with blocking threats? To clarify since apparently Jehochman finds it [
beneath him] to look at this these are the edits Lightbreather did to "spam" her page during the month of January, I support a motion that largely deals with teh problem and it's worth a block warning and not one single word is said about this other then when I mention how I found out about this page.
As HIAB points out, Lightbreather's participation in the GGTF case was to say the least, deceptive. She announces she's retired, then edit's as an IP, purportedly for privacy concerns. However when HIAB speculated that the IP was LB, she suddenly un-retires to participate in the case logged in. After that, LB announces (twice) that she can't participate further one evening because she is going out to dinner and then an ip editor seemingly holding the same views takes up the mantle. Sure, it could have been someone else trying to set her up, but that would have required the villain to have the opportunity (ready to pounce when LB was away) and the means to sock from a location LB was allegedly editing. That seems rather farfetched; Occam's Razor applies.
LB wishes an IB with HIAB. I suspect that she does not like her activities being scrutinized. Yet she continues to aggressively wage a campaign against Eric Corbett. One of the principles from GGTF is that Wikipedia is not a battleground. I think given the totality of LB's recent forum shopping against her perceived opponents, she is in violation of that principle. She needs to back away from trying to get editors sanctioned and focus on editing instead. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 09:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: neither were parties, but Lighbreather was certainly involved. A) she was the first to proffer evidence and then B) participated in the proposed decision discussion via ip because she didn't want her own conduct to be scrutinized. If you asked an outsider to read the discussion on the PD talk page first, and then examined the title of the case second they would wonder what this all has to do with with the GGTF. With the exception of some raving and self destructive behavior that eventually led to their downfall, most of the discussion focused on Eric Corbett, making it a de facto Eric Corbett Civility case. That she filed evidence against him, and then attacked him from behind the shield as an ip is really outrageous bordering on disgusting. The ARCA she filed above is indicative of someone who is hounding EC. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 18:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
I rather doubt that a community discussion on an IB that LB has been seeking would come to any consensus and she knows that. Some have wondered here why Lightbreather filed a request here against HIAB. That's kind of like asking why did the stray cat that I fed milk a week ago keeps coming back to visit me everyday. Because it worked last time. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 18:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: I failed to see your message to me when I posted some diffs for Thryduulf. Above are the diffs, for the both of you to review. And please don't put words in my mouth. With regards to your honor and productivity, I never once questioned your productivity. But now that I look at it, it looks like you just questioned mine. Have a care to make sure your advice and accusations are not in conflict with each other in the future
@ TParis: -- Tom, while you have a point that HIAB could tone the rhetoric down by not throwing out "liar" at ever turn, LB is not some innocent victim here. I've seen several editors complain to admins, and non-admins alike about being "stalked" before. And the response is usually along the lines of "just following you to make sure policy is being followed". With our without the admin privileges, that is something that any editor is entitled to do, no? When does that behavior cross the line? Like anything else, when the community says so. If LB has such an issue with this, she should bring it to the community -- as it certainly doesn't belong here. Take away HIAB's ability to investigate possible dubious behavior only emboldens that behavior. It will only introduce more cries of harassment and forum shopping, admin shopping, arb shopping, Wales shopping, canvassing etc. and do nothing to cure the underlying problem here. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 08:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Tom, I wish I would see that argument (he's not the only one) presented when an editor feels harrased by an admin. But this is just another of Wikipedia's many double standards. Remember everyone's pal MilesMoney? He wasn't afforded such consideration, nor should he have been. Nor should LB, though her issues are but a ripple in a pond to the shitstorm that was MM. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 20:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm not involved in this battle, other than having commented at the MfD, etc. I'd like to point out that 5 of the diffs provided by Lightbreather are from December 2014, over 6 weeks ago. Three more are centered around Lightbreather's efforts to create WikiProject Women and the MFD for the Kaffeeklatsch in her user space and do not reference her directly. That leaves only ONE diff from the last two months that mentions Lightbreather indirectly (diff 23). If the committee does endorse an IBAN (and I personally don't see the necessity), please clarify whether or not this means that Hell in a Bucket is allowed to talk about Lightbreather's efforts to create WikiProject Women and the Kaffeeklatsch in her userspace. While I understand that she doesn't want him referring to her or about her, if he isn't allowed to comment on gender-related issues because LB brought them up or otherwise commented on them, then he's essentially topic-banned from discussions related to the gender gap, because she is one of the more active participants in that effort right now. Karanacs ( talk) 21:50, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, Euryalus. Karanacs ( talk) 22:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies - I'm a numbers nerd, so I thought I'd compile some of the statistics you asked for. I tried to go back as far as Sep 1, 2014 (approx 5 months of data) on the main pages and looked at what types of edits were made. Diffs are to the first edit made in that thread. Karanacs ( talk) 22:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment
WP:AE
ANI
(Note, these threads included that she asked for or others have proposed interaction bans between her and Eric Corbett, Scalhotrod, Hell in a Bucket)
AN
SPIs
RFC:
I delayed commenting here, because I want to keep my head down and improve my own reputation at being associated with controversial/drama areas, and my past differences with LB have largely been resolved, but as this keeps dragging on, I cannot help but comment.
LB, You may not have "lied", but at a minimum you strongly mislead. Sorry, not all diffs due to difficulty of hunting them up, but these edits certainly are intended to read as a denial. A denial that was untrue. you might have thought you meant to say "I used multiple accounts, but such use was not a violation of the policy", but that is not what you said. Both comments implied checkuser would find the IP not to be LB. When the discussion at hand was specifically accusing the IPs of being LB, these dissembling statements can accurately be described as lies. Own up to what you did, and let your future behavior repair your reputation.
On the other hand, HIAB (and others) would do well to stop poking the bear, and to let things drop. LB screwed up. She has subsequently admitted to the screwup. (although her misdirection regarding "lie" here is not helpful) The repeated subsequent sock accusations have been on extremely thin evidence and certainly read as if trying to chase her off and comments like "once a liar always a liar" are not helpful. The clerks and CUs know how to look at past cases, and even if you want to remind them of some relevant facts, there are a lot less aggressive ways of doing so. Gaijin42 ( talk) 23:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Roger Davies clarification about your statement " Such a t-ban would not of course cover the Kaffeeklatsch but for as long as it remained in user space the i-ban would" Do you mean that the Kaffeeklatsch is not inherently part of the GGTF and therefore would not automatically be covered, but the new if discussions in the new "broadly construed" tban happen there they would still be covered? Or that the kaffeeklatsch page would be an island immune to the tban? Either one seems problematic. Obvious reasons for the second, but for the first, the recent MFD as well as its purpose as a "trial baloon" for LB's wikiproject seem to tie it fairly intrinsically to the GGTF or discussions regarding the gap. I have no comment as to if LB should be tbanned, but if she is, I can't see how the kaffeeklatsch could serve any non-violating purpose. Gaijin42 ( talk) 02:37, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
As Salvio has suggested, Lightbreather is indeed a vexatious litigant and, as Gaijin has suggested, her response to the IP edits around the time of the GGTF ArbCom case certainly gave the impression that she was being at best economical with the truth. There is a fair amount of off-wiki stuff that might demonstrate a real concern regarding WP:NOTHERE on her part but this situation certainly is not helped when both parties repeatedly use events that occurred some time ago as the mainstay of their positions. That said, IBANs never work properly because they end up being lawyered to death and from this follows ...
... that there are things that I cannot say here but the gist is that an IBAN, which LB has consistently tried to obtain, would suit her well-publicised/self-admitted agenda far more than it would suit any agenda that HIAB might have. This IBAN demand is a pattern which is unfortunately developing in the gender-related/contributor-related sphere that has raised it head of late. Those who favour the GGTF purpose seem often to be keen to exact IBANs etc and it does seem that it would be a means of stifling even valid criticism, which the GGTF case explicitly said should be permitted. RegentsPark raised this point regarding the nefarious potential effect on my own talk page a while ago but it would be unwise for me to link to it without permission from the arbitrators because of my own IBAN situation, which could easily be gamed.
I think both are fairly combative contributors and that neither really do as much as they should in genuine article space (exclude article talk pages because they're mostly tendentious arenas in the context of their favoured topics of gender, gun control etc). I would encourage them to contribute more to articles directly and less to the more-heat-than-light nonsense. Even if that means moving away from their primary interests, which have enough other editors willing to wiki-die for the "cause" anyway
Anyone who wants diffs, feel free to specify what you want but please bear in mind my own restrictions and those of policy re: off-site stuff. - Sitush ( talk)
@ Lightbreather: I didn't say that you had always sought IBANs involving yourself but those that you refer to - and this request itself - are, I think, 100% more than I have ever tried to obtain. And, believe me, I spend most of my time in a very contentious subject area that is under discretionary sanctions. There are, of course, many off-wiki comments that you or someone else using your name have made that could be added to the mix, including referring to people (me, almost certainly) as "The Troll". I can't link to them and I am pretty sure that there is a lot more going on than appears in the archives of publicly accessible mailing lists.
Whatever, I think the pair of you should move on to other things far distant from the mess that is circling gender-related material and indeed gun control etc. I don't expect you to accept my opinion but I am entitled to it. Equally, I don't think an IBAN should be applied because, truth be told, it would favour one "side" by elimination and thus be both grossly unfair and contrary to the GGTF arbcom case decision that valid criticism should not be stifled. I find it interesting that you seem generally to be far more tolerant of criticism when it comes from self-identified women, eg: User_talk:Anne_Delong#Test_Kaffeeklatsch_area_for_women-only. You are on a mission, and missions on WP usually end up in tears, in my limited experience. - Sitush ( talk) 00:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
You link to two admin-help requests for removal of content involving Eric Corbett in your own evidence, which were responded to at the time and yet you still cannot let that go. That is a fairly trivial example of your vexatiousness/forum shopping but an example nonetheless. - Sitush ( talk) 00:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: my apologies - you are a participant in two sort-of related gender-gap discussions that are going on at the same time on this page. See your remarks re: Go Phightins and NE Ent in the section here. I think that I should withdraw now because things are only going to get messier and, yep, I have better things to do with my time. I knew before I started that you were not find a compromise through me or anyone else who disagrees with you, so perhaps even contributing here was a mistake. My apologies for that, too: I should have more sense that to engage in a hopeless cause. - Sitush ( talk) 01:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ SlimVirgin: there are a lot of assumptions in your appeal to the arbs, and a blatant suggestion that self-identified women should be cut a little more slack. That seems wrong to me and indeed is contrary to the outcome of the case, which (paraphrase) said that legitimate criticism should not be impeded. This is the core of the problem: some people do not like those who criticise them and seeking IBANs is a way to prevent the criticism. - Sitush ( talk) 01:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: I think you may be misunderstanding the term vexatious litigant, which has a meaning that perhaps goes beyond your dictionary definition of vexatious. I'm no lawyer but my understanding is that is refers to someone who repeatedly attempts to press a case, using similar evidence, even after their original presentation of the case has been rejected. There isn't much doubt that you have acted in this way in relation to various issues, most of which concern the gender gap farrago and your involvement in it. It might be argued that HiaB is being vexatious in their repetition of old arguments but, since it is you who brought the present two cases in front of this noticeboard, the onus is upon you to lead the way and HiaB is entitled to defend their position using whatever evidence is available. No doubt a lawyer will now tell me that I am wrong! - Sitush ( talk) 02:01, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Those arbs who are arguing that an IBAN would be A Good Thing now seem to be missing the point that it seems not to be within their remit to establish such a thing. ArbCom had its chance during the case and, although I was added as a late party, neither Lightbreather nor HIAB were parties. The entire case was a travesty - with its many twists, turns, almost total lack of clerking, obvious bias and ultimate retitling - and if it were not for the initial evidence from two people heavily involved in one aspect of it, the thing may never even have attracted any submissions beyond the serial procedural questioner, Robert McClenon. The fact is, this proposal, like so many efforts by the highly disruptive (vexatious etc) Lightbreather and the slightly-less disruptive HIAB, falls outside scope. If you can amend a case to include people who were not even party to it and who are not in breach of the DS then we might as well refer everything at ANI to this noticeboard instead. We all know that the Committee is overworked as it is: this is a dangerous creep of powers and the issue, if there is one, should be left to the community. - Sitush ( talk) 00:43, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ GorillaWarfare: do you accept that LB is a vexatious litigant, regardless of whether you think others may be writing off her latest concerns because of that opinion? Do you need evidence of it? Isn't yet another ban, of whatever type, just adding another brick to the wall that restricts open discussion of gender-based issues and how best to move forward in reducing the gap? And did you discuss your proposal on the arb's private channels (mailing list, IRC, whatever it is) beforehand? Why do you think it is within scope? - Sitush ( talk) 06:50, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ GorillaWarfare:, Ok, thanks. Since you answered no to all of the above, we're obviously in massive disagreement here. I think that I may compile a case challenging LB's vexatious behaviour, mostly relating to forum shopping, wikilawyering and perhaps even gaming etc on gender-related issues. Given that you think it is ok for this present issue to proceed here, I will beg leave to file it here rather than at ANI. I am aware of WP:POINT but she has been doing this sort of thing for long enough and unless there is a more equitable solution proposed below, one that better reflects what is actually going on, I really do think there is a case to answer. - Sitush ( talk) 08:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: absolutely no idea why you just pinged me. I don't think I have ever said that the Kaffeeklatsch thing did breach WMF policy (I can read) and I'd already effectively acknowledged the WMF Legal opinion in a note to someone else on your talk page. Don't drag me into it, please: I think it is a bad idea but I didn't comment at the MfD for a reason. - Sitush ( talk) 01:55, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: regarding your 2nd draft, points 1 (b) and (c). As it stands, both parties would need to contact ArbCom regarding any such desire to involve themselves in DR forums etc. Is that deliberate? For example, it would necessitate LB asking permission of ArbCom for things relating to another of her particular interests, ie: gun control. Also, and I think someone may have raised this before, is it intended to be some sort of majority vote of ArbCom or would it be the case that a single arbitrator could allow/deny such a request? I've got the feeling this is going to add a shed-load of work for the arbs, who already have a lot to do. That said, I don't have any solutions either and I do appreciate the effort. - Sitush ( talk) 02:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Guerillero: yours seems like a truly remarkable statement. You seem to think that LB should have some sort of free pass because she is trying to revoke any sort of pass for Eric? Talk about doing things by proxy: if you have a problem with Eric etc (who is not even involved in this and has not been notified) then maybe try to sort it out yourself? Although now you have nailed your colours to that mast you may find it necessary to recuse in any future arb dealings that might even remotely relate to him. As for the seemingly casual throwing-in of the "sexist" word, well, my mind boggles. I must be missing something subtle here; in fact, I actually hope I am. - Sitush ( talk) 08:30, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Hell in a Buckets statement was made at a SPI, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lightbreather. Do these sanctions apply everywhere, even when Lightbreather hasn't actually interacted there?
One comment was made on the talk page of Salvio giuliano. [165] Do these sanctions apply on all talk pages?
GorillaWarfare is quoted inaccurately. She actually posted: Happy to help, though not sure how I would. You two can decide to just avoid each other (without any enforcement), but Chillum is right that a formal IBAN should be discussed in a wider venue.
[166]
EChastain ( talk) 00:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Gaijin42: the SPI's against Lightbreather are the result of her editing on gun control and have nothing to do with the editors here. EChastain ( talk) 01:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Salvio giuliano: This is the fourth litigation that Lightbreather has contributed a large amount of evidence to at ARCA in the last seven days, plus being active at SPI. I believe this is overboard and she is "vexatious litigant", using SPI's and filings here and elsewhere to get her way.
@ Lightbreather: per your comment above: I started an SPI against EChastain, who I am sure formerly edited as Sue Rangell. Please AGF and stop the personal attacks. Your SPI against me was closed. [167] Your vendetta against Sue Rangell is apparently based on this [168], resulting in your topic ban from gun control.
@ Salvio giuliano: Lightbreather never drops the stick. I've never edited anything to do with gun control. She currently has a SPI open accusing an ip and Faceless Enemy of being sockpuppets based on gun control edits. [169] To me her constant use of various forums against other editors fits civil POV pushing. She shouldn't be a one person civility patrol, requiring every edit to fit her definition of a "tone was respectful and polite". EChastain ( talk) 18:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
*@
TParis: On what basis do you believe that? I consider that a personal attack. Or else you just can't go by evidence.
EChastain (
talk)
*@
TParis: I was not trying to bait you. I'm not Lightbreather. I'm just really surprised that you still think that based on zero evidence. Why do you think I am?
EChastain (
talk) 22:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
*@
TParis: I don't care one wit about an Iban. I brought it up because Lightbreather brough it up in her comments above. "I started an SPI against EChastain,[34] who I am sure formerly edited as Sue Rangell (and at least one admin agrees[35])." So you are that one admin?
EChastain (
talk) 22:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
*@
TParis: Now that I've seen your edit summary: "Ahh, so the purpose of your remark was to bait me into saying I still believe it so then you could call it a personal attack? I see. I hope everyone takes note of what just happened", I'm wondering what you are trying to do. What are you trying to do?
EChastain (
talk) 23:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
@ TParis: wow, you pinged me one minute after my comment to Lightbreather. I'm impressed!. I can see that one of her links goes back to December and has nothing to due with this. And another doesn't even involve me at all. Do you want me to go through all of them? Should I tell SlimVirgin that you're hassling a women, i.e. me? Also, Lightbreather is making changes to her evidence without signing. That's not right. EChastain ( talk)
Yes TParis, after the fact you revealed you were emailed. But how many emails did Lightbreather send out? I'm sure you're not the only one who got an email. Did SlimVirgin? How many others did? How come GorillaWarefare and others who Lightbreather pinged didn't respond. This is all very underhanded. And Lightbreather doesn't leave edit summaries. She isn't open and transparent. That puts those of us who are at a disadvantage. My comments must be threatening to Lightbreather, if you feel that you must target me in such a way. EChastain ( talk) 02:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: You're continuing to taper with evidence already presented without signing. Do you know that's wrong? EChastain ( talk) 02:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Karanacs: Regarding the request by Roger Davies for data. This was left out:
Lightbreather at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
Roger Davies Karanacs requested that I add these here. EChastain ( talk) 19:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: Lightbreather needs to be accountable for the false SPI's she files and not just the two against me. Just now her filing agains Faceless Enemy was closed because of unconvincing evidence. [185] It's very upsetting to be accused this way, and as Faceless Enemy says, this SPI seems to be made in bad faith. EChastain ( talk)
I don't follow Euryalus's point that an i-ban would not cover interactions outside en-WP. Per WP:IBAN: they are not allowed to interact with each other in any way. In the past ArbCom has held this to include interaction elsewhere. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 08:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
The evidence that Hell in a Bucket (as well as Lightbreather) has personalized this dispute can be seen in this diff. It's one thing to say that Lightbreather has lied, and to say she has been a liar in the past, however, suggesting that she will always be a liar in the future unnecessarily personalizes the dispute. Hell in a Bucket can say that she has lied in the past, he can provide diffs to support his accusation. What he cannot do is supply diffs to prove she will lie in the future. Thusly, any accusations of future behavior fails WP:NPA. Arbcom should take note of the subtilties in this case because I believe what I am demonstrating is that fine lines are being played in an effort to stir Lightbreather into a frenzy and then use her (over?)reactions to discredit her.
If fairness or justice are your reasons not to consider an interaction ban, perhaps the idea that HIAB hasn't "earned" it, then I implore you to remember that we are here to be preventative and not punitive. Waiting until HIAB "deserves" it is punitive. Separating them now is preventative. Clearly, these two cannot get along and seperating them does Wikipedia nothing but good. There are no down sides at all to an IBAN between these two. These are plenty of downsides to not IBANing them. ANI threads, drama, accusations of sexism, Arbcom enforcement requests, etc, etc. Let's just separate them and be done with it, please.--v/r - T P 06:37, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
While no one would breath a bigger sigh of relief than I, if Lightbreather and HellInABucket were to leave each other alone, I don't think this is a matter for this page.
Considering an Iban here would be an end-run around the normal processes, effectively making "Clarifications and Amendments" a supervening version of AN/I. Indeed it has been used in this way before, but in custom does not hallow such usage, rather it damns those who allow it.
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 19:14, 4 February 2015 (UTC).
I would like to ask the committee to consider this request within the context of trying to close the gender gap on Wikipedia. One of the many issues believed to deter women from editing is that they can't stop particular people from interacting with them. The only option we offer is a public process such as this one, where they're expected to present diffs about the person they prefer not to engage with. If, despite putting themselves through that, an IBAN won't be granted even when there's no compelling reason to decline it, we're effectively saying that we're not willing to solve that part of the gender-gap problem. Sarah (SV) (talk) 00:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
This would go away as an issue if ARBCOM would here make a sensible declaration establishing a basic right for semi-private clubs to operate as WikiProjects, for advancement of wikipedia in any topic area, where members can define their own membership requirements or admissions processes, and where members can exclude participation of non-members (e.g. to allow a all-women task force to operate without interruption). It would be semi-private in that what the WikiProject does is visible. This could lead to some wikiprojects splintering, e.g. a new GGTF being formed with possibly all-women membership, leaving the existing GGTF behind, which would not be all bad IMO. I've seen mention of an all-women internet forum that works well having a self-declaration of being female as a requirement. Allowing WikiProjects to be semi-private clubs could lead to me, or you, being excluded from some groups that we might prefer to belong to, but it would be better overall. It would be more like human groups operate in real life; they don't have to tolerate bullying or any other intolerable behavior indefinitely.
And, it is embarrassing to be an editor/member of Wikipedia, with all this going on. GGTF's media list is humbling. Sue Gardner's 2011 blog still applies. Anita Borg's "How to Edit Wikipedia" is meant to give advice to women editors, and is good advice, but it is humiliating to me to be part of this place, where the good advice includes "However, if the edit summary uses “you” or “your” aggressively...or obvious insults (often in the form of questions such as, “Are you kidding me?”), it is time to disengage and decide what to do next." And where it's useful to warn prospective editors to "Beware editors who only want to talk about content; who feel that civility is not a problem on Wikipedia; who dismiss other editors or tell others to ignore problems; and who constantly derail discussions. GGTF scoffers often ask for evidence that there really is a gender gap on Wikipedia, or that people (especially women) have been driven off by the hostile editing environment." I am pretty ashamed of a lot about this place, and can't recommend joining here, because I'd have to give stronger caveats than Anita Borg gives, and what I could say would just be too negative for me to assert to any friend that positives reasons for participating balanced out.
Males imposing themselves in the GGTF space are embarrassing, whether they are bumbling in well-intentionally or whether they are just meanly imposing themselves to derail discussions. Some men might be trying to "help" the poor women, patronizingly. I am a man; is that my motive in commenting here? Will I be heard better because I am a man? The Vintage Feminist and Lightbreather's pithy comments on having a private space are well-put. Allow there to be an effing table. Corporations and universities do allow private-like clubs for good purposes. Bores imposing themselves are told to knock it off, or they will be fired or expelled.
ARBCOM should just now declare this. Think of U.S. supreme court case Marshall v. Madison in which the court chose to assume an obviously needed authority not previously established. Or other cases declaring various basic human rights. -- do ncr am 02:35, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@NE Ent, I wasn't aware of Lightbreather's "women only" User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch that you mention; but I think it is nonsense to assert that "is clearly against WMF's nondiscrimation policy". All sorts of minority interest groups operate within schools and corporations that are obviously committed to nondiscrimination. I did understand L was interested in having private space(s), and I believe that explicitly allowing them would tend to diminish the need for ARBCOM to regulate interactions. It sure would be nice if more spaces in Wikipedia had simple nice conduct rules like that one does. It's a start! (Sorry if this is a discussion-like reply which you speak against.) -- do ncr am 03:53, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Euryalus: Thanks for acknowledging, let me interpret that as establishing Arbcom is aware of the issue of semi-private club spaces.
Note new interaction between these two users (now including this 1st, and this 2nd, out of 9 comments so far by Hellinabucket at the MFD, all effectively interactions with Lightbreather, as comments on Lightbreather's user space semi-private club) suggests that Arbcom's consideration of this specific matter is relevant. Per Gruban's comment below to you speaking against needless queuing of issues, I suggest that Arbcom should indeed try to lead on this issue (and discuss and decide itself on the existence of semi-private club spaces). There's enough said in the MFD already for you to be pretty well informed about community views, already. I suggest a motion: "We find that one issue between these 2 editors is disagreement over whether a women-only discussion space can exist in Wikipedia. Based on community discussion so far at MFD, and accepted practice that users can restrict others from commenting on their own Talk pages, a) we find that it is at most a small extension to clarify that Lightbreather can restrict participation in a women-only forum in her User space (not just her own Talk page) and b) we at least temporarily endorse that women-only forum as being okay." Or just say that ARBCOM sees no obvious problem so far. It is understood that ARBCOM rulings can be changed later, and ARBCOM's views could be changed by further future community discussion, but resolving something like this would lead on the issue, for a change. And clarity on the club space would take away one topic of disagreement between these two, and the club space itself will reduce interaction between these two (I assume LB will participate there and Hiab will not). -- do ncr am 21:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I went to WP:ARCA and an WP:ANI broke out.
In the big scary pink box atop this page it claims:
"This is not a discussion. Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive."
The edit history [186] shows a whole lotta incremental and not very much (any) clerking. Nothing breeds contempt for an institution than drawing a line in the sand which you're unwilling to back up.
Rehashing closed SPI's, regardless of the outcome, should not be tolerated. There's no doubt, due to the technical limitations and WMF privacy policy, there are false positives and false negatives. For the sake of community cohesiveness, we need to be mature about this and accept closure.
Finally, comment on the content, not on the contributor, is almost always good advice, it certainly applies to prior incarnations of the committee. Motions to address shortcomings which have become apparent are worthwhile, snarky made a mess comments are not.
Dismiss with prejudice; the filing party has provided no evidence they've attempted to use community processes to resolve this; don't reward behavior you don't want repeated.
While in some abstract point of view Lightbreather has good intentions, there's no doubt her overly aggressive approach is mildly disruptive. For example, her admin-shopping [187] an already answered request to censor Eric Corbett's comments on WP:WER. Or, rather than collegially joining a gender neutral conversation in progress, attempting to steer into GGTF politics how many women have been involved in these discussions? . The answer, incidentally is, I don't know because I generally don't know the gender of other Wikipedians; most preferences are set to "he/she," and I rarely check -- what difference does it make to how I interact with them??
That said, this concept the Hell in a Bucket must not be IBANed so they can "scrutinize" Lightbreather's edits is silly; her engagement style is not subtle and requires no sleuthing. Wikipedia would be better off if HIAB found something else to worry about. The reason not to impose an IBAN is the evidence to date -- with regards to these two editors specifically and IBANs in general -- shows that rather than providing an avenue to deescalate the situation, it would be a source of conflict over perceived violations by the other party.
Yes, Lightbreather is doing some counterproductive things, such as the "women only" User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch in her user space which is clearly against WMF's nondiscrimation policy -- so what? As almost no one is actually editing it [188], it's a harmless violation that is best ignored per path of least drama. Or her hypocrisy in complaining about HIAB going off page [189] while concurrently canvassing TParis via email. To date, I'm not seeing any evidence of disruption to anything important (mainspace) nor egregious personal attacks on editors, so at this point patience is best; she'll either begin to figure out to work with the community or she'll annoy enough people often enough per Wikipedia:First_Law she'll get site banned (via WP:AN or arbcom related venue). Hopefully it's the former; obviously we need as many editors (regardless of gender) as we can get. NE Ent 03:28, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
The presented evidence on one side seems to boil down to: "Lightbreather and Hell in a Bucket can't get along." The presented evidence on the other side seems to boil down to: "Lightbreather is a big meany." The second doesn't seem to contradict the first. Therefore, per SlimVirgin and DGG, I recommend endorsing the request.
Assuming the community plans to allow Lightbreather to continue editing - and I don't see anything of the severity level as to argue for an indefinite ban - then clearly we don't want her to continue to interact with Hell in a Bucket, since that interaction seems to consist mostly of harassment. -- GRuban ( talk) 20:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
To the extent this is a case about gender gap issues, I think SlimVirgin nails it above (with one slight tweak: I'd replace the first "they" with "users"). 12:51, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@No one in particular, regarding the objection that it's not Arbcom's job to do anything about the gender gap: yes and no. I know people who stage protest marches for various causes from time to time, and a recurring problem is that no matter what they're marching for, people will show up and try to make it all about their own cause. So, in any context where we're trying to deal with a conflict between two people, it's not helpful to let the discussion get hijacked by any cause. OTOH, if Wikipedia appears to be a place where it's rarely possible to get help if someone is stalking your edits and doggedly engaging you (and it does appear that way to a lot of people), then it would be more efficient to deal with that problem than to ignore it and instead deal piecemeal with the hundreds of disputes that result from not looking at the root cause. - Dank ( push to talk) 17:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ GorillaWarfare: So unfounded claims of sexism, snark and an outright personal attack is the level of decorum expected of Arbs these days? With the link to GeekFeminism you’re basically calling HiaB a Concern Troll and claiming his advice was given with nefarious motive. If you actually look at HiaB’s history you’d find this kind of advice giving is the norm (no matter the gender of the recipient) as is genuine efforts to defuse situations. You’ll also find when those efforts fail HaiB may end up, by his own admission, being hotheaded about it and not it let it go before he should which can even lead to exacerbating the issue. That said, impugning his motives is simply uncalled for and not supported by the evidence presented. In fact, as many have noted, the evidence shows LB often tries to get sanctions on those who disagree with or criticize her or, in this case, point out her lying during the GGTF case and her over the top, tit for tat sock hunt after getting caught herself. This kind of retributive behavior from LB has happened before when she accused a user of following her to the GGTF, quit the GGTF supposedly due to that user’s participation, and then immediately joined the project where that user was most active. Certainly not the behavior of somebody who is actively trying to avoid another user. It seems you’re ignoring the history of both users who are the subject of this request, both the good and the ill from each of them. There are no angels here and maybe an Iban is warranted but I see no evidence for implying one of the subjects is a troll nor how that could possibly help anything.
@ SlimVirgin: I’m not exactly sure what you’re suggesting. For one it’s not in the remit of ArbCom to actively do anything about the gender gap and the only context they should be viewing anything in is policy. More importantly, are you suggesting that any user who professes to being a woman should simply be able to ask for and receive an Iban when they’re criticized or their past activity is brought up? Or, worse in my view, that this shouldn’t even have to happen in front of the community? Surely you realize that flies in the face of everything Wikipedia professes to be and would be abused to no end. There’s seems to be an assumption that any woman asking for Iban is clearly in the right consensus be damned. I’m sure this can’t be what you’re suggesting but I can’t really parse anything else from your statement. Capeo ( talk) 16:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I think loose monitoring is as inadequate as an iban alone; more "robust" remedies are needed here to address the underlying issues. The forum-shopping and vexatious conduct has understandably provoked some of the responses I've reviewed. Consequently, even I can't help but wonder whether any gaps are being increased rather than "addressed" if even one of the two editors is allowed to continue to participate in the topic, let alone interact with each other. That's the view I came to after reviewing the commentary above and on this page, together with several of the diffs. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 17:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Guerillero: Bollocks. I'm not sure why Eric Corbett is being dragged into this (apart from the fact that he's yet another person to whom Lightbreather seems to have taken a dislike—I haven't been keeping score, but I've seen these names on my watchlist enough to get the impression that that's rather a long list). As far as I'm aware, there have been two recent AE requests against EC, the first of which resulted in a block for the mere mention of the GGTF (which spawned a lengthy and useless ARCA request of its own) and the second was closed as stale because the edit was a week old at the time of reporting. The latter was filed by Gamaliel, not Lightbreather. There is no problem with "admins actually enforcing the sanctions". Unless you're telling me that there are lots of violations going unreported (I don't follow EC's edits generally so I don't know), in which case how are admins supposed to deal with violations that aren't reported? Or that there are other enforcement requests that I'm unaware of where obvious violations of his restrictions were reported be not acted on, which seems unlikely to me because I've been closely monitoring AE for five years.
I've thus far refrained from commenting on this mess, but from where I stand we have a petty feud between two editors. It boils down to a few diffs of remarks that wouldn't be actionable on their own but which, taken together, suggest that the two of them need to forget each other for the good of the project. An interaction ban, if one were necessary, could have been done at AE. The rest of this is just a waste of bandwith generated partly by LB's poor choice of venue and partly by arbs talking past each other. The gender of either party is absolutely irrelevant, and Wikipedia would be a much nicer place if this politicisation of gender would stop. We're here to build an encyclopaedia—not bicker like children in the projectspace, not conduct political campaigns against each other, and not for anything else that does not contribute to the encyclopaedia.
Arbs, please close this nonsense. If you insist on talking past each other and going round in circles, defer it to AE, which may not be perfect, but is at least capable of taking action and of making an objective decision based on the facts. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
GorillaWarfare says on this page (05:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)): "The rest of the Committee can outvote me, if I am indeed an incompetent woman myself." What a sexist, vile, blackmailing comment. In other words she's saying: "agree with me, or you are all misogynists." I would like to know, Where is this stupidity all going to end?
This whole subject of gender and those editors seemingly obsessed with it is descending into a farce. It appears that any man, who the "wimmin" don't like is a legitimate target - so we see Eric Corbett needlessly dragged into the page - who next one wonders? It's been pointed out to me by email that an Arb, Gorilla Warfare is "slagging me off" (horrible expression, but apparently that's what she's doing) on Wikipediocracy for "doxing" her (it's a disgusting insult - I haven't looked at Wikipediocracy, but for the record I have never called her or any other woman a doxy anywhere) and outing her as a woman here on Wikipedia! Sadly, because of this photo of her (uploaded in 2011). I assumed she was female. I suppose it could be a man, but I stupidly thought it unlikely. Whatever, it seems to me that if even Arbs are prepared to fight dirty and take this vendetta to Wikipediocracy to score points, then there's little hope of sorting this in an decent way here. So it seems we can now all take the gloves off prepare for battle. Giano (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Hell in a Bucket ( talk · contribs) and Lightbreather ( talk · contribs) are indefinitely prohibited from interacting with, or commenting on, each other anywhere on Wikipedia (subject to the ordinary exceptions).
Hell in a Bucket ( talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from commenting directly or indirectly on-wiki about Lightbreather.
Lightbreather ( talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from commenting directly or indirectly on-wiki about Hell in a Bucket.
Lightbreather is indefinitely prohibited from:
Turning now to your remark about "cutting down on the bureaucracy of an already bureaucratic sanction", I'm surprised this is a factor for you. This current request has preoccupied twenty-five editors over eight days, and spawned 2,000 words. It was initiated by LB, who ignored specific advice about how to proceed. I do not wish to defer another drama-fest but prevent them. So, if the solution is bureaucratic, it's a small price to pay compared to the time-wasted so far. And the approval needs to come from a couple or three arbitrators, not just one, the more eyes on potential easter eggs the better. Anyhow, I'll work up this draft tomorrow morning, Roger Davies talk 23:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The Committee declines this amendment request.
Enacted - -- L235 ( talk) As a courtesy, please ping me when replying. 18:18, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 75 | ← | Archive 79 | Archive 80 | Archive 81 | Archive 82 | Archive 83 | → | Archive 85 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Robert McClenon ( talk) at 17:14, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
There are currently multiple WP:ANI threads concerning the hypothesis that the Indo-European languages originated in India, as opposed to the hypothesis accepted by most scholarship that these languages originated to the west of India and spread both east into India by migration and west into Europe by migration. They include Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents# Massive POV pushing problem at WP:FRINGE and Indo-Aryan topics. My question is whether tendentious and disruptive editing about this aspect of the ancient history of India is subject to WP:ARBIPA, in which case discretionary sanctions are applicable, or whether WP:ARBIPA only applies to the modern history of the subcontinent. Robert McClenon ( talk) 17:14, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
No need for clarification: of course DS applies. The ideological fight over the origins of the Indo-Aryans is a classic hotspot of modern nationalist discourses in India, and the backdrop of modern Hindu nationalism is the one thing that keeps these disputes alive on Wikipedia and makes them so much politically charged. This is precisely what the DS are for. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I am surprised to see this asked. The sanctions are exactly what they say. Time is not of the essence and, as Fut. Perf. notes, the particular issues being referred to are a well-known hotspot on WP, certainly in part because of what is often descrived as the Hindutva "revisionist" approach to history. - Sitush ( talk) 21:57, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
< !-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by John Carter ( talk) at 15:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Requesting clarification if the existing i-ban prohibits taking the other party involved to ANI for input of the broader community in the event of further obvious stalking which by avoiding explicit mention of me does not necessarily explicitly violate the i-ban, but is clearly of a STALKing nature, and, if it does, amendment to permit it, with of course reasonable consequences to me as the possible filer should the request there be found to be poorly based or otherwise improper. John Carter ( talk) 15:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I have no idea what the poorly worded statement above based on non-existent evidence even means, so I can't respond to it. This entire case is about John Carter casting aspersions. It's why the Ebionites 3 arbitration case was filed; it's why he was stripped of his tools; it's why we have this I-ban. Despite the restriction, he has used every available opportunity to continue this aggressive behavior at ARCA, AE, and on the talk pages of other editors. He can't seem to stop himself from doing it. Ignocrates ( talk) 17:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Both those folks were blocked JC, I as a result of AE request by Ignocrates. NE Ent 23:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC) Note/clarify: it was not my intent to offer any opinion here, simply to notify the committee that the parties may not currently post here (unless the committee directs some action to enable that). NE Ent 00:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Cambalachero ( talk) at 21:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I am currently topic banned from articles that talk about Latin American history. As clarified here, the line between history and modern times in Argentina has been set in 1983 (end of the National Reorganization Process dictatorship, and restoration of democracy). The articles listed are the articles about the presidents of Argentina since 1983, and the Pope. As such, the bulk of their articles is/would be about their presidencies (or papacy), already within the allowed limits, and do not require any special exemption. However, the sections about their early lives and early careers usually need to explain the dictatorship and the dirty war, to provide the appropiate context. In other cases, the aftermath of the dirty war still sparked controversies in the national politics (see the dirty war article, sections "Truth commission, decrees revoked", "Continuing controversies" and "Repeal of Pardon Laws and renewal of prosecutions").
Have in mind that the original discussion that led to the case was about articles from the XIX century. Those small exemptions will not go anywhere near the original controversy.
In relation to modern Argentine events, I wrote the featured article 2013 Rosario gas explosion, helped to promote the articles Néstor Kirchner, Argentine legislative election, 2013 and 2012 Buenos Aires rail disaster to the "In the news" section of the main page. I also wrote new articles, featured in the DYK section, for 18A, 2012 cacerolazo in Argentina, 2012 fiscal austerity in Argentina, 2013 Buenos Aires train crash, Argentine quota law, Boudougate, Broad Front UNEN, Eduardo Arnold, Madero Center, Mario Poli, Periodismo para todos, Public image of Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, la Cámpora. Cambalachero ( talk) 17:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
As a professional historian, I agree that it is difficult to draw a "line" between what is history and what is the present. Nonetheless, for the sake of understanding the subject, historians have (time and again) made these lines (they vary, of course, depending on the context and historian). ArbComm has also indeed drawn a line in this case.
Regardless of that, the purpose of ArbComm is to focus on user behavior. Cambalachero has conducted himself exceptionally, and has provided a series of positive contributions for the project since his topic ban (including a featured article). This positive behavior should be far more important for the committee's amendment decision than anything else.
Sincerely.-- MarshalN20 Talk 15:50, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Notwithstanding other restrictions on their editing, Cambalachero is permitted to edit all content on the articles Raúl Alfonsín, Carlos Menem, Fernando de la Rúa, Adolfo Rodríguez Saá, Eduardo Duhalde, Néstor Kirchner, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner and Pope Francis; as well as their talk pages. They may also make any edits reasonably necessary for those articles to go through the good article, peer review, or featured article processes. If Cambalachero engages in misconduct in respect of any of these articles, this exemption may be revoked either in part or in whole by an uninvolved administrator. Any subsequent appeal should be made at the requests for clarification and amendment page. The administrator must log the revocation on the Argentine history case page, together with a rationale supported by diffs.
Enacted - S Philbrick (Talk) 15:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Roger Davies talk 05:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by — Mythdon at 21:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I am requesting an amendment concerning the restriction barring me from verifiablity/reliable sources that came as a result of this clarification and this discussion
This restriction came as the result of me having unwilling to produce guideline for tokusatsu articles as outlined in the decision at the closure of the case while persisting in the behavior that led to various urges to seek outside input and work more collaboratively of my views regarding verifiability. There not long after I received a topic ban from Tokusatsu/Ryulong after this enforcement of the gratitious mention I made of Ryulong
I have not edited the tokusatsu articles since my unblock given as I held myself to voluntary restriction from editing the topic area
The edits I make these days include contributing to the articles I have interest including television stations and The Sims and making minor corrections to errors in articles like spelling and grammer and vandal fighting. I realize my activity has gone down a bunch since my unblock with having let go of all the old habits and old behaviors that led to my September 2009 banning which six months later when I repeated my habits I was blocked indef. My edits gone down a bit since my unblock and I go into spurts of being active and then inactive and then active again
Having no longer any interest to edit the topic area as I outgrew the subject area and having held myself to the voluntary restriction for the security of allowing myself get over the emotional attachment to the articles and to force myself to be productive in other areas. I had been asked and advised by various editors to go find other topic areas to edit while I was editing the topic area and honestly I can say I never made one positive contribution to the topic area but since my unblock I have made productive contributions to other topic areas with referenced content. I have been stumped on what to do about the situation about me being restricted commenting on reliable sources as on one hand I feel it be wrong to only return to the topic area as part of a process pertaining to a remedy but on the other hand if I have nothing to offer the topic area then I think if I just learned from the behavior that led to it that I can make things a fresh start in other topic areas and a new opportunity to avoid the confrontations and behaviors that led my past sanctions
But having learned from the behavior that led to it from my strict interpretations of policy and failing to collaborate with others about my stances and refusing to produce a guideline, what I am requesting is to lift the no commenting on verifiablity and reliable sources sanctions. I have been watching over the topic area even though I no longer edit it and none of the arguments that occurred that led to the guideline remedy are happening as most of those disputes during the time I edited was by a certain editor (myself) doing whatever he could to get the topic area to where he saw fit as most of the never ending disputes were initiated by myself. So the way I see it is this restrictions purpose has been served in having learned from the behavior and its been five years and a lot of the topic areas problems left when I was topic banned and is now only moot as if I were to source an article I would not be allowed to discuss it if an editor were to question my edits
If the sanction should be lifted I will promise to avoid any behavior that led to the sanctions and urges on verifiability and will work more toward an effort to collaborate on verifiablity and to let go of the old strict interpreations of policies including verifiablity which I already no longer am hung up on strict disruptive intepretation of policy. But if the arbcom decision should be that I return to the topic area to help produce a guideline then thats what I will do. Most of the arbs that were arbs at the time this was put in place are no longer arbs and I recommend all arbs take a look at the case before coming to any decision. I will be bound by any result the arbcom should come of this. Thank you for taking the time to read. — Mythdon 21:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Noted. I think this is fairest way to go about as opportunity to further work on old past behavior showing I have infact learned from my past sanctions. From what I read of this is that the restriction is to remain in place but to now both simplistically and broadly construe the intent of the remedy. I shall keep this all in mind in my future editing even after the restriction ends. All is noted here and it all works out. — Mythdon 00:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I know much of this case from start to finish, and there is a long history so there will no doubt be some uncertainty regarding what happened here. To bring some context to this, after the original case remedies were enacted Mythdon had initiated a significant number of "clarification/amendment" requests (brace yourself as there's a bit to read in each: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]). The third request/diff is the discussion where this restriction was imposed by way of motion, and his last request is found in the last diff where the site ban in 2009 was imposed. I understand Mythdon appealed to the committee but ultimately his 2012 appeal was directed to the community. The appeal was successful (the community agreed to lift the site ban).
Overall:
I hope that assists somewhat anyway. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 07:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I was around back when Mythdon was originally banned. At the time, he was known for being extremely terse, unfriendly, and overly concerned with trivialities. See his first RfA back in 2009 to get a sense of what I mean by that. But I don't think it's really relevant anymore, as he's clearly changed quite a bit. He has expressed a genuine understanding of where he went wrong, and as far as I can tell, there have been no problems since being unblocked.
This sanction serves no further purpose and should be lifted. Kurtis (talk) 09:20, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
The remedy "Mythdon further restricted (4 August 2009)" is revoked. Mythdon is instead restricted as follows for the longer of one year or 500 edits. If, in the opinion of any uninvolved administrator, Mythdon: a) behaves disruptively at XFD discussions;
b) unreasonably nominates multiple articles for deletion; or
c) unreasonably places maintenance tags on multiple articles;
then Mythdon may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.
Enacted with Mythadon's current edit count being 8910. -- L235 ( talk) As a courtesy, please ping me when replying. 06:51, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Ncmvocalist ( talk) at 18:47, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
My first request for clarification concerns the AC procedures - standard provision for appeals and modifications. In particular, the section entitled "Modification by administrators" in the following situation:
1A) An administrator X blocks an user for a period of time after reviewing a complaint alleging a breach of a topic ban (which was imposed as a case remedy). After the block has expired, administrator Y imposes another block of the same or a longer duration for the same complaint (and where there are no further breaches). Administrator Y did not obtain prior affirmative consent/agreement from administrator X, or at AN, AE, or here, for imposing the further block. Can the committee please confirm in those circumstances whether administrator Y's further block would be considered a modification of administrator X's block, and that such an action is unauthorised?
My second request for clarification concerns the AE sanction handling case (principle 3.1.2 - Deliberate and careful use of discretionary sanctions) in the following situation:
2A) An administrator X refuses to block an user after reviewing a complaint alleging a breach of a topic ban (which was imposed as a case remedy). Other administrators opine on the issue at AE and there appears to be division regarding the appropriateness of any block (and the appropriate duration for a block even if it is agreed). Administrator Y unilaterally imposes a block (where there is clearly no pressing need to), and did not obtain prior affirmative consent/agreement from administrator X, or at AN, AE, or here for imposing the block. If there is a division in opinion at AE regarding the appropriateness and duration of a block, has the committee indicated to its admins that they can unilaterally impose a block anyway? Does principle 3.1.2 only apply to discretionary sanctions? Or does that principle apply to requested enforcement of case remedies too?
I have listed 1A and 2A above only, as I may have a follow up under each. Thanks, Ncmvocalist ( talk) 19:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I feel it's worth noting that the situation described in 2A just played out in a recently closed AE request (it's still there but hatted). I assume that part was unmentioned in the hopes of avoiding a dramastorm, so I won't name it directly. That said, I consider it valuable context that arbs should be aware of and review. 204.101.237.139 ( talk) 18:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm glad to see this has been asked already, I was about to. I think the answers so far to 1A are pretty reasonable and uncontroversial. I'm more interested in Arbs' answers to 2A. Normally, an admin can take unilateral AE action without waiting for a discussion, and then the normal AE rules apply to reverse that action: unlike a normal admin action, consensus would be required to overturn the AE action. However, when a discussion is already underway, and there is no consensus on the blocking (or a preliminary consensus not to block), it seems unfair to unilaterally make the decision to block, and then insist on a new discussion to overturn it. If it really is acceptable to do that, could not an admin with an opposing viewpoint decide to "officially warn" someone, or block them for 1 second, and then close the AE request, preventing any further blocking without a brand new discussion? (I'm not advocating that, of course, just pointing out that it kind of follows from the answers to 1A). AE enforcement is meant to streamline things, but in the scenario described above, it's being used instead as a trump card. It shouldn't be. If there is an ongoing discussion at AE with differing viewpoints on blocking among the uninvolved admins, an admin shouldn't wade in and block before a consensus develops. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 18:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
The principle of "do it first so the other admin will be wheel-warring" has been discussed before, without any solid answers. Zugzwang is a rough equivalent. Why not recognize that valid issue raised by Floq above - and issue a sua sponte dictum that blocks should generally require the initial input of (say) three admins in order to have standing against a simple reversal by another admin? Thus reducing the value of "first move wins." Collect ( talk) 20:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
While the IP has alluded to it, I'm going to make it explicit. This is another damn "hypothetical situation" thread that's actually not at all hypothetical, and like it or not the Arb's responses are going to be read in that context. Yep, it's another damn Malleus/Eric Corbett thread: link to discussion, closure.
Unlike most threads involving Eric Corbett, it was dealt with in a reasonable amount of time, after a reasonable discussion, and resulted in a reasonable final decision that wasn't followed by a firestorm or wheel warring. The ArbCom should be very cautious in how it approaches the question in 2A, in that the question seems to be exploring ways that an ArbCom decision to impose discretionary sanctions can be nullified by a single admin. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 21:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I was one of the admins who opined against a block in the "hypothetical" scenario. I disagree with the block for reasons I've stated elsewhere (mainly that it is based on an overly literal interpretation of the remedy with no regard for its spirit), but at the end of the day AE cannot afford to become deadlocked like ANI whenever a big name is involved. The solution? More objective, level-headed admins at AE. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
As the admin who made the block discussed in the second question, I'm offering the following comments:
It seems to to me that the "first mover advantage" is a long-standing Wiki problem which has been dealt with traditionally by consensus and discussion, and application of policy.
The rule making AE non-overturnable effectively gives a form of absolute power to the Admins who frequent AE, which has been abused, just as the absolute power of checkusers has been abused (and historically, almost every other form of power, both absolute and otherwise).
So the instant problem of Sandstein's "overly literal interpretation of the remedy with no regard for its spirit" - and indeed his history of such narrow and binary interpretations, not unusual amongst the Wikipedia demographic, really pales into insignificance with the systemic problem that we have created of non-overturnable admin actions. It would be better, if still not ideal, if these actions were subject to normal community scrutiny.
I understand, of course, that the idea is to prevent an infinite regress. More important though is the inequality
The current arrangement breaks this in no uncertain manner.
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 16:30, 28 January 2015 (UTC).
I was pinged to comment here. I do indeed remember both this case, and the early stages of the discussion about revisions to the discretionary sanctions process that were made, in part, as a result of that case. The clear intention at the time was to address the fact that AE seems to attract administrators who like to mete out sanctions regardless of the state of the discussion of a request (i.e., to sanction even in situations where a preponderance of administrators do not believe a sanction is appropriate) or just as seriously to interpret the "consensus" of administrators as supporting sanction even in situations where almost all other administrators would say there was either (a) no consensus or (b) a consensus not to sanction. Arbitration enforcement is in some ways even more powerful than arbitration decisions themselves, because at an arbcom case there must be a clear majority supporting a sanction before it can be placed. My read of the two situations described above is as follows:
Those were the intentions at the time of the case, and in the early discussions for improving the procedures. Hope that helps. Risker ( talk) 07:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
If this is meant to clarify a situation like the recent Sandstein/Eric Corbett brouhaha, Ncmvocalist's 2A) should say:
The decision to block wasn't unilateral because Guettarda agreed that EC had violated his ban. [8]
Principle 2.2.1 applies here: Administrator's are not perfect. Go Phightins! acted quickly (5 minutes [9]) after I asked for admin help [10] at WT:WER, as did NE Ent (3 minutes [11]) after I asked a second time, [12] otherwise they might have realized that EC really had broken his topic ban and simply removed EC's comments per the GGTF ArbCom Remedies, which is all that I asked for, before I went to AE.
If admins were perfect, Go Phigtins! or NE Ent would have either removed the comments as I asked, blocked EC (which I did not ask for), or started a discussion here at AE, per Principle 3.1.2. -- Lightbreather ( talk) 21:39, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
For User:Lightbreather's concerns of casting aspersions please see the section below where I have provided the requested evidence. Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 23:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
While I see the point of those that say that DS has never required consensus, I think its important to distinguish the difference between not requiring a consensus to do something , and doing something in spite of consensus to the contrary. If an admin sees something requiring immediate unilateral action, they should do so. but when they are aware of pre-existing consensus to the contrary, or at least significant debate, then the unilateral action can seem WP:POINTy. Obviously there is a gradient there and lots of grey area about what would be acceptable vs what would not be. Certainly no action/sanction required in this "hypothetical" but some guidance about the gradient could resolve potential future issues Gaijin42 ( talk) 23:02, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Since this seems to have been instigated by a particular case, and there has been much discussion about it, I would like to make a point about said case. No appeal I saw was made against the block, except for a frivolous suggestion to have the block extended by a day. This suggests that the defendant felt, at some level at least, that the block was justified. If I was subject to a block I felt was unfair, I think I would make an appeal for the case to be examined, to continue editing, but also to try to prevent injustices in the future from occurring. If I felt the block, and the duration of the block, was at some level justified, I would probably not bother. -- Mrjulesd (talk) 12:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Now that I've left the Committee, I don't plan to comment regularly in these threads; and I have nothing to say about the specific disputes surrounding this and other pending requests, other than that they are the sort of infighting I'm glad not to be responsible for policing any more. My only purpose in commenting here is to respond to the comment from Sandstein about his approach to AE, because while I respect his dedication and sincerity, I have a different view.
When as an arbitrator I voted to topic-ban an editor from a topic, it was with the intention that that editor should steer clear of that topic, because his or her participation in that topic was unhelpful to the encyclopedia or the community or both. Blocking is, in many cases, the appropriate response when an editor intentionally disregards a topic-ban, and I have always appreciated the work of the admins on AE and elsewhere who enforce our decisions, including with blocking where necessary.
That being said, speaking only for myself, when I proposed or voted to topic-ban an editor from X topic ("broadly construed" or otherwise), it was not my intention that "this means that [I] expect[ed] this editor to be blocked in each and every case in which they make a X-related edit outside of the policy exceptions, no matter what the circumstances may be." (Emphasis added.) As I said, in many, perhaps most, cases an editor topic-banned from X who edits on X should indeed be blocked. However, enforcement of ArbCom sanctions, like sane enforcement of anything, requires the guided exercise of judgment and discretion. No matter how carefully the Committee crafts its remedies, there will always be borderline cases in which editors and admins can disagree in good faith as to whether the topic-ban applied. ( It is not possible even in theory for any decision to anticipate every possible application of a remedy or every borderline situation that may come up.) There will be instances in which an editor may believe in good faith that his or her edit was permissible, and when told it wasn't, will accept the ruling and sin no more. There are editors who faithfully abide by a topic-ban for a long period of time, making useful edits in other areas, and then stray in an isolated instance.
An approach of automatically blocking every such editor in "each and every instance ... no matter what the circumstances may be" may have the advantages Sandstein urges. These are, if I understand him correctly, that discretion and subjectivity in the enforcement process are reduced, and that sanctioned editors will steer clear of boundary-testing. Those may be valid arguments for not giving already-sanctioned editors the benefit of the doubt when they are causing problems. But there are also disadvantages to automatically blocking without considering the circumstances, including the creation of a culture where minor, fleeting, and relatively harmless transgressions become the subject of lengthy debate and controversy, compounding the "battleground" atmosphere that has often led the Committee to impose sanctions such as topic-bans in the first place.
These are general thoughts borne of experience, not focused on any specific block or case, and of course everyone else's MMV. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 15:37, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Concerning what constitutes an admin action, well, this is trickier. In general, declining to act has generally not been considered an admin action and, so, another admin may decide to act without violating the prohibition on modifying someone else's action without consent or consensus. At the same time, an admin who decided to impose a 1-sec. block to prevent others from imposing harsher sanctions would clearly be trying to game the system and could probably be sanctioned himself. My personal feeling is that the only action which qualifies as admin action, in these cases, would be closing (and hatting) an AE thread without action.
Finally, concerning the issue of de minimis, yes, Sandstein, admins are allowed to exercise their best judgement when enforcing an arbcom-imposed restriction; sometimes, a block will be needed, others a warning will suffice and others the violation may even be too inconsequential to warrant any action and could even lead to a boomerang on the OP. We trust administrators, that's why we have tasked them with enforcing our decisions, we don't want you to become automata. Your common sense is valued. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Lightbreather ( talk) at 22:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Following the GGTF ArbCom case, I proposed an Iban between Hell in a Bucket and myself. [14] He declined. I have left the offer open on my talk page, [15] without reply. However, today, Hell in a Bucket again called me a liar, [16] as he has in the past, without evidence. He also regularly belittles my efforts to create women's spaces to help address the gender gap.
Could an admin please place this Iban? Lightbreather ( talk) 20:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Hell in a Bucket: The link you gave shows that I was blocked for abusing multiple accounts. I maintain that I legitimately edited while logged out, but Mike V disagreed. That doesn't mean that I "lied" anymore than Mike V "lied" (he didn't) for coming to a different conclusion about my reason for editing while logged out. Lightbreather ( talk) 23:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
@ GorillaWarfare and Roger Davies: You were involved [17] [18] in the discussion where I originally proposed this. [19] I don't think this is an unreasonable request, do you? Lightbreather ( talk) 23:07, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Links to vitriole Hell in a Bucket has spewed at or about me since the close of the GGTF Arbcom:
The allegations of lies and not AGF without evidence ( making allegations against other editors or casting aspersions) really bothers me, as well as the contempt he shows ( discussion of problems and issues) for my efforts to create welcoming spaces for women to improve the GENDER GAP. Lightbreather ( talk) 15:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Two kinds of pork: 200 words of your spin on the situation, no diffs. Also, as of today almost 48% (it's been higher) of my edits are to content, compared to your 26%. These rumors that besmirch my honesty and productivity really should stop. Lightbreather ( talk) 15:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Euryalus: Why can't the two of you just avoid each other, as suggested by GW last year? The thing is, I believe that I have been avoiding him, but I don't think he's been avoiding me. In addition to the numbered list of comments he's made to or about me, did you catch the one that I gave in my first paragraph [31] (yesterday, and why I came here) where he says of me I always follow the policy once a liar always a liar and that's a consequence of [Lightbreather's] deception? The spreading around his opinion about me, that he thinks I'm a liar, and his repeated attacks of my attempts to create a women-only space to help (I hope) narrow the WP gender gap... These things are getting tiresome and they're against the GGTF ArbCom principles. Lightbreather ( talk) 22:40, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Karanacs: I think you missed the diff in my first paragraph. Since others seem to have missed it, too, I have added it to the numbered list. Lightbreather ( talk) 22:48, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Hell in a Bucket: I. Did. NOT. Lie. Please stop calling me a liar. Lightbreather ( talk) 23:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: When I first proposed a volunteer Iban between myself and HIAB, back in December, on my talk page, you said:
That is why I came here.
@ GorillaWarfare: Could you please comment? You were in that discussion, too, as was HIAB, though he did not agree to the proposal. Lightbreather ( talk) 23:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Salvio giuliano: The only other forum where I've asked for an Iban between myself and HIAB was my own talk page, in December, and HIAB was involved in the discussion. When he declined, I let it drop until his recent comments, which are against the GGTF ArbCom principles of Fair criticism, Making allegations against other editors, and Discussion of problems and issues.
@ Gaijin42: When I said what I said about WP:CHK, I meant that I expected that I would get to talk privately with a CU (which I tried to do, but it never happened) and explain exactly why I was editing logged out. I was stalked on- and off-wiki last year, so yes, I was editing logged out for privacy. I was busted ultimately because apparently IP editors aren't supposed to be involved in "discussions internal to the project." (I never found out - did any of the other dozen or so IP editors involved in that discussion get blocked for socking?) That only leaves the joe job after the fact, and that wasn't me. (HIAB seems to think that since my block was extended for it, that "proves" it was me, and for me to deny it is a lie.)
Maybe this will help. On 3 June 2010, HIAB was blocked for personal attacks. HIAB claimed, I'm blocked for being direct and open. [32] Is he a liar? Should I start following him around to various talk pages and tell people he's a liar? Lightbreather ( talk) 00:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
As for HIAB's opposition to my GGTF-related proposals, I don't object to his opposition - lot's of people are opposed to it - but I don't like the trash talk, which may be generally accepted on Wikipedia, but it's against the ArbCom GGTF principles, so I'd like him to knock it off. Lightbreather ( talk) 23:56, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Sitush: IBAN, which LB has consistently tried to obtain... There are only two other editors that I have sought an Iban for. The first we observed a successful, voluntary two-way ban for a while, but she quit editing months ago. The other, which I wanted as a one-way, was never enacted. This one, which I am volunteering for, is a two-way, and the only other forum where I've proposed it was my own talk page, where HIAB declined.
Also, would you describe let the grown up women stay where they should be, blatantly discriminative drivel, and I don't take shit like this serious as "valid criticism" (especially under the GGTF ArbCom principles)? Lightbreather ( talk) 00:36, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Sitush: You link to two admin-help requests for removal of content involving Eric Corbett in your own evidence Where? I don't see that here. Lightbreather ( talk) 01:07, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Sitush: Anne's criticism was on her page, in a discussion that I started with her, and its tone was respectful and polite, even if it expressed opposition to my proposal. Compare that to HIAB's comments above. Also, did you know that your last reply to me had at least a dozen direct uses of "you" or "your." Perhaps that helps your mission. However, what you do and what I do off-wiki have no place here. Lightbreather ( talk) 01:24, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Euryalus: Re your question, all of my evidence is related to the GGTF.
-- Lightbreather ( talk) 14:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Hell in a Bucket: "Vexatious" means "causing or tending to cause annoyance, frustration, or worry." Which editor is more vexatious? The one who follows WP protocol re a conduct dispute, or the one who WP:HOUNDS? I am sorry if the former is more vexatious to those who must evaluate the complaint, but the hounding became vexatious enough for me that I am seeking a remedy. (Note that I cite policy while you cite essays.) Lightbreather ( talk) 16:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ EChastain: I didn't quote GorillaWarfare. Do you mean that I placed a confusing diff?
Also, with the exception of Karanacs and Hawkeye7, all of the editors who've given statements here were active between Jan 27 and Feb 2: You, TKOP, Gaijin, and Sitush at AE, ANI, and ARCA; HIAB at ARCA and SPI; me at AE, ARCA, and SPI. Lightbreather ( talk) 18:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
ping=anyone who cares: Personal info I deleted from my user page early on in my WP editing career because I realized how hostile this place is. I never dreamed that personal info that was on my page for a matter of a few weeks at the most would be sought out by someone on a mission at some future date to share with a group. Why Hell in a Bucket chose to point it out to a couple dozen people at an ArbCom? I'm past caring - I have since had it permanently revdeled,
[36] - but I sure would like an Iban so he doesn't keep pestering me.
Lightbreather (
talk) 01:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Re modus operandi of EChastain and HIAB:
[37]
[38]
[39]
[40]
[41]
[42]
@ Euryalus: I came here rather than ANI for the reason I gave earlier. When I first proposed a volunteer Iban between myself and HIAB, back in December, on my talk page, Roger Davies advised: We could add a FOF and remedy to that via a request at WP:ARCA, or an IBAN could be handled at WP:AE under the FFTF discretionary sanctions. -- Lightbreather ( talk) 13:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Courcelles, Euryalus, GorillaWarfare, Salvio giuliano, and Thryduulf: Between February 1, 2014, and January 31, 2015, HIAB started 13 discussions at ANI, and I started 12. If that is the measure, I'd say he is every bit as "vexatious" as I. I would be accept, albeit begrudgingly, being topic banned from administrative noticeboards, as Salvio has suggested, if HIAB is also topic banned from administrative noticeboards, although can we give the ban a length? Say six months? Lightbreather ( talk) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: Can you clarify? Do you propose that I would need to get permission to go to WP:BLPN, WP:NPOVN, WP:NORN, WP:RSN, and so on? As I just suggested, I am open to being banned - say for six months - from ANI, as Salvio suggested, if HIAB is banned, too (based on the evidence that he used that forum at least as often as I). Lightbreather ( talk) 16:23, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I had forgotten about this, but re-discovered it while counting up our activity at ANI in the past year, have all the arbitrators considered/remembered that HIAB was warned in the Banning Policy case last fall?
Now I will try to just watch the end of this unfold, unless an arbitrator pings me. I will be entertaining house guests for the next 24 to 36 hours. Lightbreather ( talk) 16:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: I collected that info manually this a.m. My granddaughters are having lunch and then they'll nap. I'll be able to give you more info from the last six months then. Lightbreather ( talk) 21:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: For the six months from 8/6/14 through 2/6/15 I count:
If I'm a "vexatious litigant" (and I don't buy that I am), then it appears to me that HIAB is also a "vexatious litigant."
May I ask, is it cool to be going to the arbitrators' talk pages to post the same appeal re a case here? Today, HIAB has posted the same appeal [43] on your talk page and the talk pages of @ DGG, Dougweller, Courcelles, Guerillero, AGK, Euryalus, and Thryduulf:.
And can you clarify, isn't some of what he brought up in that appeal - references to off-wiki activity - forbidden in these processes? (Or am I mistaken?) -- Lightbreather ( talk) 22:23, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Karanacs: You say you went back to Sept., but you have two items from May 2014 listed for me. Did you mean to include those? Lightbreather ( talk) 23:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Doncram, Karanacs, NE Ent, and Sitush: Getting ready to call it a night, but since it was brought up in several places here, the result of the Kaffeekltach MfD was page kept, [44] and WMF Legal says it does not violate the non discrimination policy. [45] Lightbreather ( talk) 01:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Sitush: I included you in the ping because you linked to it in your comment here on Feb. 3. [46] Lightbreather ( talk) 02:02, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: This has been dragging on for a while, and maybe I've missed or forgotten something, but where did I ignore specific advice about how to proceed?
@ Roger Davies: I am so sorry if I seemed to ignore you. I started this in good faith based on what you said on my talk page on 17 Dec 2014. [47] The advice you posted on 18 Dec was on my talk page, too, but it was in reply to Hell in a Bucket. [48] And the statement you made here on 2 Feb was in reply to Thryduulf and didn't ping me or include my name. [49] Honestly, if you had pinged me and said, "Lightbreather, ARCA is the wrong place for this, please take it to [board]," I would have done so. Lightbreather ( talk) 00:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
User:Lightbreather as you seem to have forgot here is the evidence [ [52]]. Hell in a Bucket ( talk) 22:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
I think total out of that there is one that is directly addressed to Lightbreather 00:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
User:Roger Davies,
User:Jehochman, and
User:Dougweller double standards maybe just a little? Would you care to opine on these? I am curious on why I am apparently being singled out with blocking threats? To clarify since apparently Jehochman finds it [
beneath him] to look at this these are the edits Lightbreather did to "spam" her page during the month of January, I support a motion that largely deals with teh problem and it's worth a block warning and not one single word is said about this other then when I mention how I found out about this page.
As HIAB points out, Lightbreather's participation in the GGTF case was to say the least, deceptive. She announces she's retired, then edit's as an IP, purportedly for privacy concerns. However when HIAB speculated that the IP was LB, she suddenly un-retires to participate in the case logged in. After that, LB announces (twice) that she can't participate further one evening because she is going out to dinner and then an ip editor seemingly holding the same views takes up the mantle. Sure, it could have been someone else trying to set her up, but that would have required the villain to have the opportunity (ready to pounce when LB was away) and the means to sock from a location LB was allegedly editing. That seems rather farfetched; Occam's Razor applies.
LB wishes an IB with HIAB. I suspect that she does not like her activities being scrutinized. Yet she continues to aggressively wage a campaign against Eric Corbett. One of the principles from GGTF is that Wikipedia is not a battleground. I think given the totality of LB's recent forum shopping against her perceived opponents, she is in violation of that principle. She needs to back away from trying to get editors sanctioned and focus on editing instead. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 09:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: neither were parties, but Lighbreather was certainly involved. A) she was the first to proffer evidence and then B) participated in the proposed decision discussion via ip because she didn't want her own conduct to be scrutinized. If you asked an outsider to read the discussion on the PD talk page first, and then examined the title of the case second they would wonder what this all has to do with with the GGTF. With the exception of some raving and self destructive behavior that eventually led to their downfall, most of the discussion focused on Eric Corbett, making it a de facto Eric Corbett Civility case. That she filed evidence against him, and then attacked him from behind the shield as an ip is really outrageous bordering on disgusting. The ARCA she filed above is indicative of someone who is hounding EC. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 18:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
I rather doubt that a community discussion on an IB that LB has been seeking would come to any consensus and she knows that. Some have wondered here why Lightbreather filed a request here against HIAB. That's kind of like asking why did the stray cat that I fed milk a week ago keeps coming back to visit me everyday. Because it worked last time. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 18:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: I failed to see your message to me when I posted some diffs for Thryduulf. Above are the diffs, for the both of you to review. And please don't put words in my mouth. With regards to your honor and productivity, I never once questioned your productivity. But now that I look at it, it looks like you just questioned mine. Have a care to make sure your advice and accusations are not in conflict with each other in the future
@ TParis: -- Tom, while you have a point that HIAB could tone the rhetoric down by not throwing out "liar" at ever turn, LB is not some innocent victim here. I've seen several editors complain to admins, and non-admins alike about being "stalked" before. And the response is usually along the lines of "just following you to make sure policy is being followed". With our without the admin privileges, that is something that any editor is entitled to do, no? When does that behavior cross the line? Like anything else, when the community says so. If LB has such an issue with this, she should bring it to the community -- as it certainly doesn't belong here. Take away HIAB's ability to investigate possible dubious behavior only emboldens that behavior. It will only introduce more cries of harassment and forum shopping, admin shopping, arb shopping, Wales shopping, canvassing etc. and do nothing to cure the underlying problem here. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 08:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Tom, I wish I would see that argument (he's not the only one) presented when an editor feels harrased by an admin. But this is just another of Wikipedia's many double standards. Remember everyone's pal MilesMoney? He wasn't afforded such consideration, nor should he have been. Nor should LB, though her issues are but a ripple in a pond to the shitstorm that was MM. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 20:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm not involved in this battle, other than having commented at the MfD, etc. I'd like to point out that 5 of the diffs provided by Lightbreather are from December 2014, over 6 weeks ago. Three more are centered around Lightbreather's efforts to create WikiProject Women and the MFD for the Kaffeeklatsch in her user space and do not reference her directly. That leaves only ONE diff from the last two months that mentions Lightbreather indirectly (diff 23). If the committee does endorse an IBAN (and I personally don't see the necessity), please clarify whether or not this means that Hell in a Bucket is allowed to talk about Lightbreather's efforts to create WikiProject Women and the Kaffeeklatsch in her userspace. While I understand that she doesn't want him referring to her or about her, if he isn't allowed to comment on gender-related issues because LB brought them up or otherwise commented on them, then he's essentially topic-banned from discussions related to the gender gap, because she is one of the more active participants in that effort right now. Karanacs ( talk) 21:50, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, Euryalus. Karanacs ( talk) 22:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies - I'm a numbers nerd, so I thought I'd compile some of the statistics you asked for. I tried to go back as far as Sep 1, 2014 (approx 5 months of data) on the main pages and looked at what types of edits were made. Diffs are to the first edit made in that thread. Karanacs ( talk) 22:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment
WP:AE
ANI
(Note, these threads included that she asked for or others have proposed interaction bans between her and Eric Corbett, Scalhotrod, Hell in a Bucket)
AN
SPIs
RFC:
I delayed commenting here, because I want to keep my head down and improve my own reputation at being associated with controversial/drama areas, and my past differences with LB have largely been resolved, but as this keeps dragging on, I cannot help but comment.
LB, You may not have "lied", but at a minimum you strongly mislead. Sorry, not all diffs due to difficulty of hunting them up, but these edits certainly are intended to read as a denial. A denial that was untrue. you might have thought you meant to say "I used multiple accounts, but such use was not a violation of the policy", but that is not what you said. Both comments implied checkuser would find the IP not to be LB. When the discussion at hand was specifically accusing the IPs of being LB, these dissembling statements can accurately be described as lies. Own up to what you did, and let your future behavior repair your reputation.
On the other hand, HIAB (and others) would do well to stop poking the bear, and to let things drop. LB screwed up. She has subsequently admitted to the screwup. (although her misdirection regarding "lie" here is not helpful) The repeated subsequent sock accusations have been on extremely thin evidence and certainly read as if trying to chase her off and comments like "once a liar always a liar" are not helpful. The clerks and CUs know how to look at past cases, and even if you want to remind them of some relevant facts, there are a lot less aggressive ways of doing so. Gaijin42 ( talk) 23:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Roger Davies clarification about your statement " Such a t-ban would not of course cover the Kaffeeklatsch but for as long as it remained in user space the i-ban would" Do you mean that the Kaffeeklatsch is not inherently part of the GGTF and therefore would not automatically be covered, but the new if discussions in the new "broadly construed" tban happen there they would still be covered? Or that the kaffeeklatsch page would be an island immune to the tban? Either one seems problematic. Obvious reasons for the second, but for the first, the recent MFD as well as its purpose as a "trial baloon" for LB's wikiproject seem to tie it fairly intrinsically to the GGTF or discussions regarding the gap. I have no comment as to if LB should be tbanned, but if she is, I can't see how the kaffeeklatsch could serve any non-violating purpose. Gaijin42 ( talk) 02:37, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
As Salvio has suggested, Lightbreather is indeed a vexatious litigant and, as Gaijin has suggested, her response to the IP edits around the time of the GGTF ArbCom case certainly gave the impression that she was being at best economical with the truth. There is a fair amount of off-wiki stuff that might demonstrate a real concern regarding WP:NOTHERE on her part but this situation certainly is not helped when both parties repeatedly use events that occurred some time ago as the mainstay of their positions. That said, IBANs never work properly because they end up being lawyered to death and from this follows ...
... that there are things that I cannot say here but the gist is that an IBAN, which LB has consistently tried to obtain, would suit her well-publicised/self-admitted agenda far more than it would suit any agenda that HIAB might have. This IBAN demand is a pattern which is unfortunately developing in the gender-related/contributor-related sphere that has raised it head of late. Those who favour the GGTF purpose seem often to be keen to exact IBANs etc and it does seem that it would be a means of stifling even valid criticism, which the GGTF case explicitly said should be permitted. RegentsPark raised this point regarding the nefarious potential effect on my own talk page a while ago but it would be unwise for me to link to it without permission from the arbitrators because of my own IBAN situation, which could easily be gamed.
I think both are fairly combative contributors and that neither really do as much as they should in genuine article space (exclude article talk pages because they're mostly tendentious arenas in the context of their favoured topics of gender, gun control etc). I would encourage them to contribute more to articles directly and less to the more-heat-than-light nonsense. Even if that means moving away from their primary interests, which have enough other editors willing to wiki-die for the "cause" anyway
Anyone who wants diffs, feel free to specify what you want but please bear in mind my own restrictions and those of policy re: off-site stuff. - Sitush ( talk)
@ Lightbreather: I didn't say that you had always sought IBANs involving yourself but those that you refer to - and this request itself - are, I think, 100% more than I have ever tried to obtain. And, believe me, I spend most of my time in a very contentious subject area that is under discretionary sanctions. There are, of course, many off-wiki comments that you or someone else using your name have made that could be added to the mix, including referring to people (me, almost certainly) as "The Troll". I can't link to them and I am pretty sure that there is a lot more going on than appears in the archives of publicly accessible mailing lists.
Whatever, I think the pair of you should move on to other things far distant from the mess that is circling gender-related material and indeed gun control etc. I don't expect you to accept my opinion but I am entitled to it. Equally, I don't think an IBAN should be applied because, truth be told, it would favour one "side" by elimination and thus be both grossly unfair and contrary to the GGTF arbcom case decision that valid criticism should not be stifled. I find it interesting that you seem generally to be far more tolerant of criticism when it comes from self-identified women, eg: User_talk:Anne_Delong#Test_Kaffeeklatsch_area_for_women-only. You are on a mission, and missions on WP usually end up in tears, in my limited experience. - Sitush ( talk) 00:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
You link to two admin-help requests for removal of content involving Eric Corbett in your own evidence, which were responded to at the time and yet you still cannot let that go. That is a fairly trivial example of your vexatiousness/forum shopping but an example nonetheless. - Sitush ( talk) 00:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: my apologies - you are a participant in two sort-of related gender-gap discussions that are going on at the same time on this page. See your remarks re: Go Phightins and NE Ent in the section here. I think that I should withdraw now because things are only going to get messier and, yep, I have better things to do with my time. I knew before I started that you were not find a compromise through me or anyone else who disagrees with you, so perhaps even contributing here was a mistake. My apologies for that, too: I should have more sense that to engage in a hopeless cause. - Sitush ( talk) 01:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ SlimVirgin: there are a lot of assumptions in your appeal to the arbs, and a blatant suggestion that self-identified women should be cut a little more slack. That seems wrong to me and indeed is contrary to the outcome of the case, which (paraphrase) said that legitimate criticism should not be impeded. This is the core of the problem: some people do not like those who criticise them and seeking IBANs is a way to prevent the criticism. - Sitush ( talk) 01:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: I think you may be misunderstanding the term vexatious litigant, which has a meaning that perhaps goes beyond your dictionary definition of vexatious. I'm no lawyer but my understanding is that is refers to someone who repeatedly attempts to press a case, using similar evidence, even after their original presentation of the case has been rejected. There isn't much doubt that you have acted in this way in relation to various issues, most of which concern the gender gap farrago and your involvement in it. It might be argued that HiaB is being vexatious in their repetition of old arguments but, since it is you who brought the present two cases in front of this noticeboard, the onus is upon you to lead the way and HiaB is entitled to defend their position using whatever evidence is available. No doubt a lawyer will now tell me that I am wrong! - Sitush ( talk) 02:01, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Those arbs who are arguing that an IBAN would be A Good Thing now seem to be missing the point that it seems not to be within their remit to establish such a thing. ArbCom had its chance during the case and, although I was added as a late party, neither Lightbreather nor HIAB were parties. The entire case was a travesty - with its many twists, turns, almost total lack of clerking, obvious bias and ultimate retitling - and if it were not for the initial evidence from two people heavily involved in one aspect of it, the thing may never even have attracted any submissions beyond the serial procedural questioner, Robert McClenon. The fact is, this proposal, like so many efforts by the highly disruptive (vexatious etc) Lightbreather and the slightly-less disruptive HIAB, falls outside scope. If you can amend a case to include people who were not even party to it and who are not in breach of the DS then we might as well refer everything at ANI to this noticeboard instead. We all know that the Committee is overworked as it is: this is a dangerous creep of powers and the issue, if there is one, should be left to the community. - Sitush ( talk) 00:43, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ GorillaWarfare: do you accept that LB is a vexatious litigant, regardless of whether you think others may be writing off her latest concerns because of that opinion? Do you need evidence of it? Isn't yet another ban, of whatever type, just adding another brick to the wall that restricts open discussion of gender-based issues and how best to move forward in reducing the gap? And did you discuss your proposal on the arb's private channels (mailing list, IRC, whatever it is) beforehand? Why do you think it is within scope? - Sitush ( talk) 06:50, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ GorillaWarfare:, Ok, thanks. Since you answered no to all of the above, we're obviously in massive disagreement here. I think that I may compile a case challenging LB's vexatious behaviour, mostly relating to forum shopping, wikilawyering and perhaps even gaming etc on gender-related issues. Given that you think it is ok for this present issue to proceed here, I will beg leave to file it here rather than at ANI. I am aware of WP:POINT but she has been doing this sort of thing for long enough and unless there is a more equitable solution proposed below, one that better reflects what is actually going on, I really do think there is a case to answer. - Sitush ( talk) 08:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: absolutely no idea why you just pinged me. I don't think I have ever said that the Kaffeeklatsch thing did breach WMF policy (I can read) and I'd already effectively acknowledged the WMF Legal opinion in a note to someone else on your talk page. Don't drag me into it, please: I think it is a bad idea but I didn't comment at the MfD for a reason. - Sitush ( talk) 01:55, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: regarding your 2nd draft, points 1 (b) and (c). As it stands, both parties would need to contact ArbCom regarding any such desire to involve themselves in DR forums etc. Is that deliberate? For example, it would necessitate LB asking permission of ArbCom for things relating to another of her particular interests, ie: gun control. Also, and I think someone may have raised this before, is it intended to be some sort of majority vote of ArbCom or would it be the case that a single arbitrator could allow/deny such a request? I've got the feeling this is going to add a shed-load of work for the arbs, who already have a lot to do. That said, I don't have any solutions either and I do appreciate the effort. - Sitush ( talk) 02:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Guerillero: yours seems like a truly remarkable statement. You seem to think that LB should have some sort of free pass because she is trying to revoke any sort of pass for Eric? Talk about doing things by proxy: if you have a problem with Eric etc (who is not even involved in this and has not been notified) then maybe try to sort it out yourself? Although now you have nailed your colours to that mast you may find it necessary to recuse in any future arb dealings that might even remotely relate to him. As for the seemingly casual throwing-in of the "sexist" word, well, my mind boggles. I must be missing something subtle here; in fact, I actually hope I am. - Sitush ( talk) 08:30, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Hell in a Buckets statement was made at a SPI, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lightbreather. Do these sanctions apply everywhere, even when Lightbreather hasn't actually interacted there?
One comment was made on the talk page of Salvio giuliano. [165] Do these sanctions apply on all talk pages?
GorillaWarfare is quoted inaccurately. She actually posted: Happy to help, though not sure how I would. You two can decide to just avoid each other (without any enforcement), but Chillum is right that a formal IBAN should be discussed in a wider venue.
[166]
EChastain ( talk) 00:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Gaijin42: the SPI's against Lightbreather are the result of her editing on gun control and have nothing to do with the editors here. EChastain ( talk) 01:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Salvio giuliano: This is the fourth litigation that Lightbreather has contributed a large amount of evidence to at ARCA in the last seven days, plus being active at SPI. I believe this is overboard and she is "vexatious litigant", using SPI's and filings here and elsewhere to get her way.
@ Lightbreather: per your comment above: I started an SPI against EChastain, who I am sure formerly edited as Sue Rangell. Please AGF and stop the personal attacks. Your SPI against me was closed. [167] Your vendetta against Sue Rangell is apparently based on this [168], resulting in your topic ban from gun control.
@ Salvio giuliano: Lightbreather never drops the stick. I've never edited anything to do with gun control. She currently has a SPI open accusing an ip and Faceless Enemy of being sockpuppets based on gun control edits. [169] To me her constant use of various forums against other editors fits civil POV pushing. She shouldn't be a one person civility patrol, requiring every edit to fit her definition of a "tone was respectful and polite". EChastain ( talk) 18:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
*@
TParis: On what basis do you believe that? I consider that a personal attack. Or else you just can't go by evidence.
EChastain (
talk)
*@
TParis: I was not trying to bait you. I'm not Lightbreather. I'm just really surprised that you still think that based on zero evidence. Why do you think I am?
EChastain (
talk) 22:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
*@
TParis: I don't care one wit about an Iban. I brought it up because Lightbreather brough it up in her comments above. "I started an SPI against EChastain,[34] who I am sure formerly edited as Sue Rangell (and at least one admin agrees[35])." So you are that one admin?
EChastain (
talk) 22:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
*@
TParis: Now that I've seen your edit summary: "Ahh, so the purpose of your remark was to bait me into saying I still believe it so then you could call it a personal attack? I see. I hope everyone takes note of what just happened", I'm wondering what you are trying to do. What are you trying to do?
EChastain (
talk) 23:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
@ TParis: wow, you pinged me one minute after my comment to Lightbreather. I'm impressed!. I can see that one of her links goes back to December and has nothing to due with this. And another doesn't even involve me at all. Do you want me to go through all of them? Should I tell SlimVirgin that you're hassling a women, i.e. me? Also, Lightbreather is making changes to her evidence without signing. That's not right. EChastain ( talk)
Yes TParis, after the fact you revealed you were emailed. But how many emails did Lightbreather send out? I'm sure you're not the only one who got an email. Did SlimVirgin? How many others did? How come GorillaWarefare and others who Lightbreather pinged didn't respond. This is all very underhanded. And Lightbreather doesn't leave edit summaries. She isn't open and transparent. That puts those of us who are at a disadvantage. My comments must be threatening to Lightbreather, if you feel that you must target me in such a way. EChastain ( talk) 02:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Lightbreather: You're continuing to taper with evidence already presented without signing. Do you know that's wrong? EChastain ( talk) 02:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Karanacs: Regarding the request by Roger Davies for data. This was left out:
Lightbreather at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
Roger Davies Karanacs requested that I add these here. EChastain ( talk) 19:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Roger Davies: Lightbreather needs to be accountable for the false SPI's she files and not just the two against me. Just now her filing agains Faceless Enemy was closed because of unconvincing evidence. [185] It's very upsetting to be accused this way, and as Faceless Enemy says, this SPI seems to be made in bad faith. EChastain ( talk)
I don't follow Euryalus's point that an i-ban would not cover interactions outside en-WP. Per WP:IBAN: they are not allowed to interact with each other in any way. In the past ArbCom has held this to include interaction elsewhere. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 08:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
The evidence that Hell in a Bucket (as well as Lightbreather) has personalized this dispute can be seen in this diff. It's one thing to say that Lightbreather has lied, and to say she has been a liar in the past, however, suggesting that she will always be a liar in the future unnecessarily personalizes the dispute. Hell in a Bucket can say that she has lied in the past, he can provide diffs to support his accusation. What he cannot do is supply diffs to prove she will lie in the future. Thusly, any accusations of future behavior fails WP:NPA. Arbcom should take note of the subtilties in this case because I believe what I am demonstrating is that fine lines are being played in an effort to stir Lightbreather into a frenzy and then use her (over?)reactions to discredit her.
If fairness or justice are your reasons not to consider an interaction ban, perhaps the idea that HIAB hasn't "earned" it, then I implore you to remember that we are here to be preventative and not punitive. Waiting until HIAB "deserves" it is punitive. Separating them now is preventative. Clearly, these two cannot get along and seperating them does Wikipedia nothing but good. There are no down sides at all to an IBAN between these two. These are plenty of downsides to not IBANing them. ANI threads, drama, accusations of sexism, Arbcom enforcement requests, etc, etc. Let's just separate them and be done with it, please.--v/r - T P 06:37, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
While no one would breath a bigger sigh of relief than I, if Lightbreather and HellInABucket were to leave each other alone, I don't think this is a matter for this page.
Considering an Iban here would be an end-run around the normal processes, effectively making "Clarifications and Amendments" a supervening version of AN/I. Indeed it has been used in this way before, but in custom does not hallow such usage, rather it damns those who allow it.
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 19:14, 4 February 2015 (UTC).
I would like to ask the committee to consider this request within the context of trying to close the gender gap on Wikipedia. One of the many issues believed to deter women from editing is that they can't stop particular people from interacting with them. The only option we offer is a public process such as this one, where they're expected to present diffs about the person they prefer not to engage with. If, despite putting themselves through that, an IBAN won't be granted even when there's no compelling reason to decline it, we're effectively saying that we're not willing to solve that part of the gender-gap problem. Sarah (SV) (talk) 00:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
This would go away as an issue if ARBCOM would here make a sensible declaration establishing a basic right for semi-private clubs to operate as WikiProjects, for advancement of wikipedia in any topic area, where members can define their own membership requirements or admissions processes, and where members can exclude participation of non-members (e.g. to allow a all-women task force to operate without interruption). It would be semi-private in that what the WikiProject does is visible. This could lead to some wikiprojects splintering, e.g. a new GGTF being formed with possibly all-women membership, leaving the existing GGTF behind, which would not be all bad IMO. I've seen mention of an all-women internet forum that works well having a self-declaration of being female as a requirement. Allowing WikiProjects to be semi-private clubs could lead to me, or you, being excluded from some groups that we might prefer to belong to, but it would be better overall. It would be more like human groups operate in real life; they don't have to tolerate bullying or any other intolerable behavior indefinitely.
And, it is embarrassing to be an editor/member of Wikipedia, with all this going on. GGTF's media list is humbling. Sue Gardner's 2011 blog still applies. Anita Borg's "How to Edit Wikipedia" is meant to give advice to women editors, and is good advice, but it is humiliating to me to be part of this place, where the good advice includes "However, if the edit summary uses “you” or “your” aggressively...or obvious insults (often in the form of questions such as, “Are you kidding me?”), it is time to disengage and decide what to do next." And where it's useful to warn prospective editors to "Beware editors who only want to talk about content; who feel that civility is not a problem on Wikipedia; who dismiss other editors or tell others to ignore problems; and who constantly derail discussions. GGTF scoffers often ask for evidence that there really is a gender gap on Wikipedia, or that people (especially women) have been driven off by the hostile editing environment." I am pretty ashamed of a lot about this place, and can't recommend joining here, because I'd have to give stronger caveats than Anita Borg gives, and what I could say would just be too negative for me to assert to any friend that positives reasons for participating balanced out.
Males imposing themselves in the GGTF space are embarrassing, whether they are bumbling in well-intentionally or whether they are just meanly imposing themselves to derail discussions. Some men might be trying to "help" the poor women, patronizingly. I am a man; is that my motive in commenting here? Will I be heard better because I am a man? The Vintage Feminist and Lightbreather's pithy comments on having a private space are well-put. Allow there to be an effing table. Corporations and universities do allow private-like clubs for good purposes. Bores imposing themselves are told to knock it off, or they will be fired or expelled.
ARBCOM should just now declare this. Think of U.S. supreme court case Marshall v. Madison in which the court chose to assume an obviously needed authority not previously established. Or other cases declaring various basic human rights. -- do ncr am 02:35, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@NE Ent, I wasn't aware of Lightbreather's "women only" User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch that you mention; but I think it is nonsense to assert that "is clearly against WMF's nondiscrimation policy". All sorts of minority interest groups operate within schools and corporations that are obviously committed to nondiscrimination. I did understand L was interested in having private space(s), and I believe that explicitly allowing them would tend to diminish the need for ARBCOM to regulate interactions. It sure would be nice if more spaces in Wikipedia had simple nice conduct rules like that one does. It's a start! (Sorry if this is a discussion-like reply which you speak against.) -- do ncr am 03:53, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Euryalus: Thanks for acknowledging, let me interpret that as establishing Arbcom is aware of the issue of semi-private club spaces.
Note new interaction between these two users (now including this 1st, and this 2nd, out of 9 comments so far by Hellinabucket at the MFD, all effectively interactions with Lightbreather, as comments on Lightbreather's user space semi-private club) suggests that Arbcom's consideration of this specific matter is relevant. Per Gruban's comment below to you speaking against needless queuing of issues, I suggest that Arbcom should indeed try to lead on this issue (and discuss and decide itself on the existence of semi-private club spaces). There's enough said in the MFD already for you to be pretty well informed about community views, already. I suggest a motion: "We find that one issue between these 2 editors is disagreement over whether a women-only discussion space can exist in Wikipedia. Based on community discussion so far at MFD, and accepted practice that users can restrict others from commenting on their own Talk pages, a) we find that it is at most a small extension to clarify that Lightbreather can restrict participation in a women-only forum in her User space (not just her own Talk page) and b) we at least temporarily endorse that women-only forum as being okay." Or just say that ARBCOM sees no obvious problem so far. It is understood that ARBCOM rulings can be changed later, and ARBCOM's views could be changed by further future community discussion, but resolving something like this would lead on the issue, for a change. And clarity on the club space would take away one topic of disagreement between these two, and the club space itself will reduce interaction between these two (I assume LB will participate there and Hiab will not). -- do ncr am 21:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I went to WP:ARCA and an WP:ANI broke out.
In the big scary pink box atop this page it claims:
"This is not a discussion. Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive."
The edit history [186] shows a whole lotta incremental and not very much (any) clerking. Nothing breeds contempt for an institution than drawing a line in the sand which you're unwilling to back up.
Rehashing closed SPI's, regardless of the outcome, should not be tolerated. There's no doubt, due to the technical limitations and WMF privacy policy, there are false positives and false negatives. For the sake of community cohesiveness, we need to be mature about this and accept closure.
Finally, comment on the content, not on the contributor, is almost always good advice, it certainly applies to prior incarnations of the committee. Motions to address shortcomings which have become apparent are worthwhile, snarky made a mess comments are not.
Dismiss with prejudice; the filing party has provided no evidence they've attempted to use community processes to resolve this; don't reward behavior you don't want repeated.
While in some abstract point of view Lightbreather has good intentions, there's no doubt her overly aggressive approach is mildly disruptive. For example, her admin-shopping [187] an already answered request to censor Eric Corbett's comments on WP:WER. Or, rather than collegially joining a gender neutral conversation in progress, attempting to steer into GGTF politics how many women have been involved in these discussions? . The answer, incidentally is, I don't know because I generally don't know the gender of other Wikipedians; most preferences are set to "he/she," and I rarely check -- what difference does it make to how I interact with them??
That said, this concept the Hell in a Bucket must not be IBANed so they can "scrutinize" Lightbreather's edits is silly; her engagement style is not subtle and requires no sleuthing. Wikipedia would be better off if HIAB found something else to worry about. The reason not to impose an IBAN is the evidence to date -- with regards to these two editors specifically and IBANs in general -- shows that rather than providing an avenue to deescalate the situation, it would be a source of conflict over perceived violations by the other party.
Yes, Lightbreather is doing some counterproductive things, such as the "women only" User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch in her user space which is clearly against WMF's nondiscrimation policy -- so what? As almost no one is actually editing it [188], it's a harmless violation that is best ignored per path of least drama. Or her hypocrisy in complaining about HIAB going off page [189] while concurrently canvassing TParis via email. To date, I'm not seeing any evidence of disruption to anything important (mainspace) nor egregious personal attacks on editors, so at this point patience is best; she'll either begin to figure out to work with the community or she'll annoy enough people often enough per Wikipedia:First_Law she'll get site banned (via WP:AN or arbcom related venue). Hopefully it's the former; obviously we need as many editors (regardless of gender) as we can get. NE Ent 03:28, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
The presented evidence on one side seems to boil down to: "Lightbreather and Hell in a Bucket can't get along." The presented evidence on the other side seems to boil down to: "Lightbreather is a big meany." The second doesn't seem to contradict the first. Therefore, per SlimVirgin and DGG, I recommend endorsing the request.
Assuming the community plans to allow Lightbreather to continue editing - and I don't see anything of the severity level as to argue for an indefinite ban - then clearly we don't want her to continue to interact with Hell in a Bucket, since that interaction seems to consist mostly of harassment. -- GRuban ( talk) 20:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
To the extent this is a case about gender gap issues, I think SlimVirgin nails it above (with one slight tweak: I'd replace the first "they" with "users"). 12:51, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@No one in particular, regarding the objection that it's not Arbcom's job to do anything about the gender gap: yes and no. I know people who stage protest marches for various causes from time to time, and a recurring problem is that no matter what they're marching for, people will show up and try to make it all about their own cause. So, in any context where we're trying to deal with a conflict between two people, it's not helpful to let the discussion get hijacked by any cause. OTOH, if Wikipedia appears to be a place where it's rarely possible to get help if someone is stalking your edits and doggedly engaging you (and it does appear that way to a lot of people), then it would be more efficient to deal with that problem than to ignore it and instead deal piecemeal with the hundreds of disputes that result from not looking at the root cause. - Dank ( push to talk) 17:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@ GorillaWarfare: So unfounded claims of sexism, snark and an outright personal attack is the level of decorum expected of Arbs these days? With the link to GeekFeminism you’re basically calling HiaB a Concern Troll and claiming his advice was given with nefarious motive. If you actually look at HiaB’s history you’d find this kind of advice giving is the norm (no matter the gender of the recipient) as is genuine efforts to defuse situations. You’ll also find when those efforts fail HaiB may end up, by his own admission, being hotheaded about it and not it let it go before he should which can even lead to exacerbating the issue. That said, impugning his motives is simply uncalled for and not supported by the evidence presented. In fact, as many have noted, the evidence shows LB often tries to get sanctions on those who disagree with or criticize her or, in this case, point out her lying during the GGTF case and her over the top, tit for tat sock hunt after getting caught herself. This kind of retributive behavior from LB has happened before when she accused a user of following her to the GGTF, quit the GGTF supposedly due to that user’s participation, and then immediately joined the project where that user was most active. Certainly not the behavior of somebody who is actively trying to avoid another user. It seems you’re ignoring the history of both users who are the subject of this request, both the good and the ill from each of them. There are no angels here and maybe an Iban is warranted but I see no evidence for implying one of the subjects is a troll nor how that could possibly help anything.
@ SlimVirgin: I’m not exactly sure what you’re suggesting. For one it’s not in the remit of ArbCom to actively do anything about the gender gap and the only context they should be viewing anything in is policy. More importantly, are you suggesting that any user who professes to being a woman should simply be able to ask for and receive an Iban when they’re criticized or their past activity is brought up? Or, worse in my view, that this shouldn’t even have to happen in front of the community? Surely you realize that flies in the face of everything Wikipedia professes to be and would be abused to no end. There’s seems to be an assumption that any woman asking for Iban is clearly in the right consensus be damned. I’m sure this can’t be what you’re suggesting but I can’t really parse anything else from your statement. Capeo ( talk) 16:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I think loose monitoring is as inadequate as an iban alone; more "robust" remedies are needed here to address the underlying issues. The forum-shopping and vexatious conduct has understandably provoked some of the responses I've reviewed. Consequently, even I can't help but wonder whether any gaps are being increased rather than "addressed" if even one of the two editors is allowed to continue to participate in the topic, let alone interact with each other. That's the view I came to after reviewing the commentary above and on this page, together with several of the diffs. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 17:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Guerillero: Bollocks. I'm not sure why Eric Corbett is being dragged into this (apart from the fact that he's yet another person to whom Lightbreather seems to have taken a dislike—I haven't been keeping score, but I've seen these names on my watchlist enough to get the impression that that's rather a long list). As far as I'm aware, there have been two recent AE requests against EC, the first of which resulted in a block for the mere mention of the GGTF (which spawned a lengthy and useless ARCA request of its own) and the second was closed as stale because the edit was a week old at the time of reporting. The latter was filed by Gamaliel, not Lightbreather. There is no problem with "admins actually enforcing the sanctions". Unless you're telling me that there are lots of violations going unreported (I don't follow EC's edits generally so I don't know), in which case how are admins supposed to deal with violations that aren't reported? Or that there are other enforcement requests that I'm unaware of where obvious violations of his restrictions were reported be not acted on, which seems unlikely to me because I've been closely monitoring AE for five years.
I've thus far refrained from commenting on this mess, but from where I stand we have a petty feud between two editors. It boils down to a few diffs of remarks that wouldn't be actionable on their own but which, taken together, suggest that the two of them need to forget each other for the good of the project. An interaction ban, if one were necessary, could have been done at AE. The rest of this is just a waste of bandwith generated partly by LB's poor choice of venue and partly by arbs talking past each other. The gender of either party is absolutely irrelevant, and Wikipedia would be a much nicer place if this politicisation of gender would stop. We're here to build an encyclopaedia—not bicker like children in the projectspace, not conduct political campaigns against each other, and not for anything else that does not contribute to the encyclopaedia.
Arbs, please close this nonsense. If you insist on talking past each other and going round in circles, defer it to AE, which may not be perfect, but is at least capable of taking action and of making an objective decision based on the facts. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
GorillaWarfare says on this page (05:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)): "The rest of the Committee can outvote me, if I am indeed an incompetent woman myself." What a sexist, vile, blackmailing comment. In other words she's saying: "agree with me, or you are all misogynists." I would like to know, Where is this stupidity all going to end?
This whole subject of gender and those editors seemingly obsessed with it is descending into a farce. It appears that any man, who the "wimmin" don't like is a legitimate target - so we see Eric Corbett needlessly dragged into the page - who next one wonders? It's been pointed out to me by email that an Arb, Gorilla Warfare is "slagging me off" (horrible expression, but apparently that's what she's doing) on Wikipediocracy for "doxing" her (it's a disgusting insult - I haven't looked at Wikipediocracy, but for the record I have never called her or any other woman a doxy anywhere) and outing her as a woman here on Wikipedia! Sadly, because of this photo of her (uploaded in 2011). I assumed she was female. I suppose it could be a man, but I stupidly thought it unlikely. Whatever, it seems to me that if even Arbs are prepared to fight dirty and take this vendetta to Wikipediocracy to score points, then there's little hope of sorting this in an decent way here. So it seems we can now all take the gloves off prepare for battle. Giano (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Hell in a Bucket ( talk · contribs) and Lightbreather ( talk · contribs) are indefinitely prohibited from interacting with, or commenting on, each other anywhere on Wikipedia (subject to the ordinary exceptions).
Hell in a Bucket ( talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from commenting directly or indirectly on-wiki about Lightbreather.
Lightbreather ( talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from commenting directly or indirectly on-wiki about Hell in a Bucket.
Lightbreather is indefinitely prohibited from:
Turning now to your remark about "cutting down on the bureaucracy of an already bureaucratic sanction", I'm surprised this is a factor for you. This current request has preoccupied twenty-five editors over eight days, and spawned 2,000 words. It was initiated by LB, who ignored specific advice about how to proceed. I do not wish to defer another drama-fest but prevent them. So, if the solution is bureaucratic, it's a small price to pay compared to the time-wasted so far. And the approval needs to come from a couple or three arbitrators, not just one, the more eyes on potential easter eggs the better. Anyhow, I'll work up this draft tomorrow morning, Roger Davies talk 23:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The Committee declines this amendment request.
Enacted - -- L235 ( talk) As a courtesy, please ping me when replying. 18:18, 13 February 2015 (UTC)