This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 100 | Archive 101 | Archive 102 | Archive 103 | Archive 104 | Archive 105 | → | Archive 110 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Swarm at 00:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Greetings. So, WP:TROUBLES#Guide to enforcement contains a 2011 provision that places all pages in the topic area under a blanket 1RR page restriction that is specifically enforceable without warning, provided {{ Troubles restriction}} has been placed on the talk page. This directly contradicts the current awareness criteria for enforcing page restrictions, and it's unclear to me whether that provision is exempt from, or has been superseded by, the modern awareness criteria that were implemented in 2014 and 2018. In spite of the contradiction with standard practice, it continues to be advertised as an active sanction on many articles, which is apparently validated on the case page. However, there's no apparent record, anywhere, of an intentional exemption to ArbCom's now-standardized procedure regarding awareness. It also claims to derive its authority, at least in part, from a community decision, but there is no record of such a restriction at WP:GS or on the case page, so it's unclear as to whether the "no warning" provision is actually the will of the community. Thanks in advance.
The 1RR restriction originated from an AE discussion in 2008 and was clarified in an ANI discussion in 2009. It's not clear whether the 2011 motion superseding "all extant remedies" actually superseded these restrictions, since these aren't actually arbcom remedies, but looking at the history of User:Coren/draft this appears to be the intent.
Additionally, it is not clear whether and how the later changes to the DS system impact a page restriction imposed in 2011 given the provisions in
WP:AC/DS#Continuity (Nothing in this current version of the discretionary sanctions process constitutes grounds for appeal of a remedy or restriction imposed under prior versions of it.
and All sanctions and restrictions imposed under earlier versions of this process remain in force.
).
T. Canens (
talk) 08:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
As the Committee noted in adopting the most recent amendments to the DS procedure, the point of having warnings is that it's fundamentally unfair to subject people to penalties for violating sanctions they didn't know about. That's what notifications and alerts are all about. There's nothing stopping admins from using the existing, well-functioning procedure to tag each page with 1RR and alerting each editor before using the blunt tool of AE sanctions against them, just like in (almost) every other topic area that the Committee has imposed DS in. In my view, any disruption in this area can be handled with existing discretionary sanctions. I suggest that the Committee vacate any Troubles topic-wide 1RR that may (or may not) be currently in effect for the sake of clarity and fairness.
Also, I strongly believe that the recent motion concerning page sanctions applies to all previous page sanctions, too. The Committee didn't technically vacate or invalidate the page restrictions – it simply placed restrictions on enforcing them by sanctioning editors, going forward. (The motion provided that "There are additional requirements in place when sanctioning editors for breaching page restrictions." – this doesn't invalidate the page sanctions, but it does create new restrictions on enforcing them.) If that argument sounds too wikilawyery, the more pure argument is that the clear intent of the Committee was to make the change applicable to existing sanctions, too. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 21:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
From the earlier statements by arbs and other admins, it is evident that we don't yet agree on whether the existing sanctions on The Troubles-related articles are subject to the awareness principle or not. Hence this clarification request is valid and necessary.
Gnomish editors are prone to falling foul of 1RR restrictions if there isn't an awareness clause. I often make reverts on articles I pass by, only to find out afterwards that the article is subject to 1RR. The recent fiasco with the block against seasoned administrator User:Jorm, which could have been averted if there was an explicit requirement to warn before blocking, also springs to mind. I strongly recommend ArbCom to amend this case and other old case with bespoke 1RR sanctions, to enshrine the awareness principle and standardise them to standard 1RR discretionary sanctions. Deryck C. 17:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The Arbitration Committee clarifies the following: All sanctions placed under remedy 3.2 of The Troubles prior to its replacement with remedy 5 are considered discretionary sanctions. Specifically, the 1RR sanction affecting the topic area is considered a form of page restriction placed as a discretionary sanction, and the additional awareness requirements regarding page restrictions apply.
Enacted - Mini apolis 14:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by El cid, el campeador at 00:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Currently, there is a discretionary sanctions notice on the Stanley Kubrick talk page, alerting users not to add an infobox. That, I understand. But, there is also a notice to not discuss infoboxes on the talk page. To me, this goes against everything that WP is built upon, namely robust discussion and consensus-building. The intended purpose of talk pages is to discuss ways to improve the articles. Issuing a gag order on discussion doesn't seem right. Therefore, I propose removing that part of the DS notice.
The reason I added the sanction at all was mainly the disruption on the talkpage, with new discussions and "straw polls" erupting again and again, draining the energy of everybody who felt constrained to weigh in yet again in order to have their opinion counted. See my full rationale, and support from uninvolved admins, including two arbitrators, in this AE discussion. Bishonen | talk 06:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC).
Just no.WP seems to have a quite-proficient cottage-industry (esp. in this area) wherein there's a tendency to throw the same shit at the same wall, until some of it sticks.Any measure to counteract such activities ought be appreciated.And, time has shown that the infobox discussion(s) over the particular page are nothing but acrimonious and only lead to a hostile atmosphere, with zero development to the content.
An edit war is easily handled with protection or blocks. It is the talk talk talk that corrodes the community. The wiki way would be to brawl for another three months, but discretionary sanctions are provided to prevent such unproductive fights. No RfC has found that infoboxes are required so there is no reason to worry that people won't be able to argue until 10 September 2018 when the discretionary sanctions expire. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:11, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
We can wait until September 2018. In the meantime, our planet will continue to rotate. GoodDay ( talk) 11:44, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
It's pretty common for a community consensus to come up with a moratorium on re-re-re-discussing that which was just discussed to death again at the same page. It appears to be within WP:AC/DS parameters for an admin to apply a similar anti-disruption remedy as a discretionary sanction, especially since it's not targeted at anyone in particular, but just puts up a temporary forcefield around two combatant sides so the rest of the peeps are not caught in the continual crossfire and can get on with the real work. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:13, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, but they are not carved in stone; their content and interpretation can evolve over time.So I see this as a very valid interpretation of the pillars and principles of Wikipedia. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 04:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by NeilN at 17:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Can I get a quick clarification from Arbcom on how they want admins to handle WP:MOSMAC (which has the the force of an Arbcom decision behind it) in light of this. I'm already seeing name changes on some articles contravening "Republic of Macedonia", the full self-identifying official name, will be used in all contexts where other countries would also be called by their full official names. Enforce MOSMAC as usual with reverts until and if the name change becomes official and then change the guideline? I ask because uninvolved admins usually stay clear of naming disputes and "when to change the name" discussions but in this case it's a name mandated by an Arbcom case. -- NeilN talk to me 17:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
AFAIK, the change is not yet official because the constitution has to be amended. Just keep the name as it is now until the change to the constitution is made official. – Illegitimate Barrister ( talk • contribs), 18:31, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Like others here, I'd strongly recommend to not change anything for the time being, at least for as long as the change hasn't become official. Once it has, we should probably first have a systematic new naming disucssion/RfC, as there will be quite a few non-trivial issues to decide. Sure, renaming the main article will be a no-brainer, but what about the dozens of other article titles that contain the name? Will all references to the country in running text have to be changed? What about adjectival forms like "the Macedonian government"? Of course, the Greek side is quite insistent that the new name should be used erga omnes, by and towards everybody, and that this is part of the deal, but will the common usage of the English speech community follow this, or will plain "Macedonia" remain in common informal use among third parties? If it does, to what extent should Wikipedia's usage reflect the official position? There'll be some consensus building to do and it will take some time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:56, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
We should enforce MOSMAC until the renaming becomes official, which is expected to happen at the end of 2018. When it becomes official we should use the name "Republic of North Macedonia" instead of currently used "Republic of Macedonia". Regarding the adjectival forms "the Macedonian government" or "the North Macedonian government" - this have to be discussed. In the press-conference the Prime Minister Zoran Zaev used the term "Ministry of Health of the Republic of North Macedonia" and "Macedonian healthcare" as an examples. The second thing we should discuss on after it becomes official is the short term "Macedonia" which we currently in use for the republic and it's replacement by "North Macedonia". -- StanProg ( talk) 19:44, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
must end one month after it is opened
should probably be must end no earlier than one month after it is opened
--no reason to be so precise. You might also reasonable specify the number of days a month constitutes (or take our common understanding to be the same date one month later). --
Izno (
talk) 00:33, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
There's going to be a referendum later this year, on whether or not to accept the proposed name change. We shouldn't be changing the name now, per WP:CRYSTAL. -- GoodDay ( talk) 13:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
The proposed motion makes sense. Perhaps it should be amended to clarify that the RfC should not be launched until the naming dispute is considered fully resolved by the authorities of both countries involved. Recent media reports indicate that the Macedonian president intends to veto the new name "Northern Macedonia", so this might still take a while. Sandstein 18:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Of course, Wikipedia should reflect an accurate, current name. I see that the below motion is currently gaining support, and I do believe it should pass. Since the current policy has the force of ArbCom behind it, it makes sense to have an ArbCom clarification. Regarding a future RfC, others have pointed out that the change is not official yet. If we're going to have a month-long RfC, we should do it as soon as practicable, rather than waiting for the change of name to be signed, sealed and delivered. Of course, the RfC shouldn't go into effect until that is the case. However, if we waited, there will be a month where we are inundated by people trying to change the name. There will be many page protections, plenty of edit warring blocks and a smattering of inconsistencies. If we run the RfC now, we can avoid all that drama. Furthermore, if, as mentioned by several others, this proposal is stopped, then we will have plenty of time to discuss any alternative proposal and no harm is done.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The Arbitration Committee clarifies that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia) may be modified by an RfC discussion. The discussion must remain open for at least one month after it is opened, and the consensus must be assessed by a panel of three uninvolved contributors. In assessing the consensus, the panel is instructed to disregard any opinion which does not provide a clear and reasonable rationale explained by reference to the principles of naming conventions and of disambiguation, or which is inconsistent with the principles of the neutral point of view policy or the reliable sources guideline.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by MrX at 19:40, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Greetings. I am bringing this here at the recommendation of several AE admins because it's not well suited to WP:AE. The matter concerns the article talk page participation by Atsme in the American politics topic area, that I believe to be disruptive and damaging to the collaborative editing process. As shown in the small sampling of diffs below, Atsme makes a lot of article talk page comments, a great many of which do not positively contribute to building consensus or resolving content disputes. Many of the comments are classic Whataboutism. Others are just off-topic screeds, diversions, defensive reactions to other's comments, dead horse beating, and attempts at levity.
The most troubling comments are the ones that undermine the credibility of highly-respected sources that are prominently used throughout enwiki. These take the form of characterizing sources like The Washington Post and The New York Times as biased, propaganda, clickbait, biased against Trump, rumor, and gossip. She also has a tendency to falsely refer to verifiable facts as "opinion". Her arguments are frequently based on fringe viewpoints typically found on websites like Breitbart, and are often based on fallacious reasoning.
She makes a disproportionately-high number of comments. In the past six months, more than 7 percent of the comments at talk:Donald Trump have come from her, out of 93 editors who have commented in the same period. That would be fine if she were moving discussions toward consensus or resolution, but that is rarely the case. What usually happens if the she will make increasingly tendentious arguments, and then when criticized for doing so, she gets defensive. Her arguments usually convey a tone of self-appointed WP:POVFIGHTER and frequently contain multiple shortcuts to policies that almost all experienced editors are very well-versed in. She often rehashes arguments that have already been put to rest.
Atsme seems to be a warm and affable person who is rarely uncivil, and who I believe is sincere in her participation in the project. She has made some outstanding contributions to building the encyclopedia in areas outside of American politics, and I have great respect for her for that. It seems though that she has an ideological blind spot which affects her objectivity, and manifests as large amounts of low signal-to-noise ratio commentary.
I am hopeful that Arbcom can deal with this without a full case. I know there are a lot of diffs (and I apologize), but since the behavior is cumulative, rather than incidental, I can't come up with a better way to present this. Sections are roughly arranged in descending degree of concern, and sampling a few diffs should be compelling.
Thank you for your time.
Frequently adds multiple, irrelevant policy shortcuts to he comments
Numerous attempts have been made to get Atsme to follow WP:TPG and and to participate more constructively in content discussions. She has rebuffed all of these efforts.
Frequently misuses WP:NOTNEWS in content disputes. [7] [8] [9] [10]
I am respectfully requesting that the admins reviewing this case please forgive me for not being able to respond to this case. I am feeling more hurt by what MrX just attempted to do than I am upset over it. I'm not sure if what Drmies concluded hurt me more...but it cuts to the core. For me to respond to these allegations, I would have to provide diffs showing their bad behavior...we all know how that game is played, but I am not here to hurt other editors, or to try to silence them because I disagree with their POV or the material they've added or removed. I have always honored consensus - I am here to build an encyclopedia - to participate in collegial debates and present reasonable arguments. I believe that is exactly what I have done, and if the admins who are here to review my behavior will look at the full discussions and not just the cherrypicked diffs, I believe they will agree. I have always tried to include RS with my comments, but...again...I am a bit overwhelmed right now. I don't have it in me to fight this because in order to defend myself, it will be at their expense, and I don't have the heart to do that. Atsme 📞 📧 21:20, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I couldn't sleep thinking about this very sad state of affairs, and the intent behind it. I don't see how it can be anything else but a deceitful, premeditated plan to eliminate editors they consider the opposition, and because it couldn't be done any other way, MrX chose to game the system, and inundate ArbCom with months of cherrypicked diffs taken out of context to create a false impression. This is clearly a case of WP:POV railroad, thinking it was the only to stop a productive, collaborative editor who never showed ill-will or wished any harm on anyone.
Please keep in mind that the articles in question are subject DS restrictions/1RR-consensus required; therefore, editors have no choice but to participate in relentless discussions on the TP in order to achieve consensus. The process involves nearly every single piece of material that is added or reverted. Of course you will see more input on the TP of those articles, and far more disagreement - just look at the sizes of the Trump articles. The WP:OWN behavior of MrX and others who share his POV, have made the editing environment at those articles very unfriendly with a noticeable resistance to collaborative editing with those whose views differ from their own.
There is no indication of any incivility on my part; rather there is an indication of WP:IDONTLIKEIT by MrX and those who support his POV. Worse yet, the threat by Drmies to me in this diff speaks volumes about this case now: "someone somewhere is marking this down to gather evidence for a topic ban”.
I tried to avoid this - it cuts deeply - but the deceit and the intent to cause me harm when I've tried so hard to do the right thing was simply overwhelming. I believe the evidence I've provided justifies a TB on all Trump-related articles broadly construed for MrX and Drmies, both of whom have demonstrated an obvious disdain for Trump that effects their ability to edit those articles in compliance with NPOV. Their bias is overwhelming, their behavior is shameful, especially that of an administrator I once trusted, and there are several other editors who harbor the same disdain for Trump who also need to be included in that TB. Atsme 📞 📧 09:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Very disappointing to see this posted here. I would encourage ArbCom, if they are to look into this matter, to look at the whole topic instead of focusing on one editor. For example, over the past year MrX has been very effective removing editors with a different POV than theirs from the topic area. This sort of diff stalking, collecting, and deep diving is somewhat troubling and chilling at the very least. MrX was recently warned about this - see here. Some of the diffs presented here are from a while ago, so it is really disturbing to think there are editors out there holding on to this stuff for months and even years.
Arbcom should dismiss this, or open a full case to look at the entire topic area. Mr Ernie ( talk) 20:09, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Commenting purely about procedural aspects, I don't see what the Committee can do here, in the form of an amendment or clarification. This is the sort of thing that AE, based on the DS from American Politics 2, should be able to handle. Now having said that, it has been my recent experience that AE has been failing miserably at dealing with AP2 cases. It tends to look like the AE administrators can't make up their minds about whether or not they are being asked to resolve content disputes, so they keep punting. Sorry to tell you this, but you are eventually going to have to take an AP3 case, and in the meantime, the AP2 content area is a toxic waste dump that does not come down to just one or two editors. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:18, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
MrX wrote in the opening of his statement: "I am bringing this here at the recommendation of several AE admins because it's not well suited to WP:AE"
I'm curious about (1) What this is supposed to mean; (2) Whether it means administrators have approached him either on- or off-Wiki to lobby him for bringing a case against Atsme here. I would like the statement clarified. I would also like to know if there have been administrators encouraging him to bring a case against Atsme - and if that's the case, (a) it's very troubling that there has been a coordination of attack by admins against an editor, and (b) who are these admins?
For the sake of transparency, this statement needs to be clarified and the community needs to know what communication off-wiki has taken place that was a precursor to this case being brought.
Aside from this, I agree in total with Mr Ernie's statement above. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:21, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Drmies, a few things you've said below need to be addressed, especially since several who've commented here have mentioned the AP2 articles in general and have suggested topic bans for a number of editors at those articles. The statement I'm going to comment on is this:
"this cynicism toward reliable sources and reputable media leads to an erosion of trust and in a community that wants to produce an encyclopedia we cannot have that. It takes too much time and energy to counter the many, many unfounded allegations, which drags along editors who might otherwise stay out of the area but who know see their Facebook thread reflected in Wikipedia. In return, other editors are chased out of the area because it is just not worth their time and energy"
None of this is Atsme's fault. None of this is one editor's fault, or even the fault of a couple of editors -- probably not even most. It's the fault, in large part, of however it all spun out of control. No fingers being pointed by me -- but it has to be solved not by topic banning editors, something more meaningful and long-lasting than a bandaid needs to be applied. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
For Winkelvi and others: Previous procedural discussion. No editors were specifically mentioned and I was unsure if a group of editors was going to be reported. -- NeilN talk to me 20:30, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
"Atsme seems to be a warm and affable person who is rarely uncivil, and who I believe is sincere in her participation in the project. She has made some outstanding contributions to building the encyclopedia in areas outside of American Politics, and I have great respect for her for that. It seems though that she has an ideological blind spot which affects here objectivity, and manifests as large amounts of low signal-to-noise ratio commentary." I couldn't agree more, and the list of diffs, and their analysis, bears this out. I'm sorry it has to come to this, but esp. the constant misunderstanding of fact vs. opinion and the attendant casting doubt on reliable sources (and the very concept thereof) is highly disruptive. Drmies ( talk) 20:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
PS, about the Atsme stuff: Fyddlestix correctly articulates the problem with all the "NPOV and NOTNEWS and FRINGE" stuff. We have policy shortcuts for good reasons; the problem isn't in using them, it's in repetitively ignoring arguments against the editor's personal [mis]interpretations of the policies and guidelines in question. That said, I agree that the editor is productive in other areas. As noted above, I don't think the problems is this topic area are particularly to do with this editor, though. Un-disclaimer: I'm a political centrist, so I'm not taking an ideological side in this mess.. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
My full statement to the Arbs is located here.
Atsme is one of a very (very) small number of Wikipedians I would like to consider my friend, but I strongly urge the arbs to take this case. I have written my entire response
here, so as not to post a giant wall of text on this page. I strongly encourage the arbs to read it in it's entirety before deciding whether or not to take this case.
Atsme, I hope you don't take my support here as a betrayal, because it's not. You are not the only editor I think should get the hell out of AmPol, and I don't think you're entirely to blame for why you should get out. So I encourage you to take my advice: let the Arbs take this case to try and fix the cesspool that is AmPol, but in the meantime, do as I did and just unwatch every directly political page on your watchlist. At the very least, doing so would essentially remove any reason to sanction you, regardless of what ArbCom thinks of the evidence above. If you don't think you can do that, or you can't accept that you should, then I'm afraid I would need to strongly support any proposed topic ban for you. Please don't make it come to that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:22, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Procedural questions aside, I'd just like to encourage admins/arbs to not be too quick to dismiss this and to take the time to look at the pattern of behavior and how much disruption it's caused over time. Atsme really does have difficulty accepting RS as RS when it comes to the AP area, and a tendency to repeatedly spam WP:POLICYSHORTCUTS as if they were an automatic "i win" button in AP debates, while ignoring other editors' earnest explanations of why the policy might not apply/why it might not be that simple (ie, IDHT). This is a pattern of behavior that has remained unchanged for a long period of time, despite repeated pleas/warnings from others - this RFC from over a year ago, for example, shows much the same type of disruptive behavior displayed in MrX's more recent diffs. Fyddlestix ( talk) 22:56, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I suggest you turn this into an actual case request, as this is not new behaviour on Atsme's part, and it has never been limited to American Politics, as Atsme either has a competence issue (they dont just have a problem with NPOV and sources, they have had ongoing issues with the BLP as well), or a deliberate misunderstanding of policies and guidelines when other editors disagree with them. When you have problems going on for over 3 years, its not going to be suited to an AE request - as they usually result in a short block/ban from a topic. And while AN can (and does) handle ongoing editor behavioural issues, its probably not suited in this case. Only in death does duty end ( talk) 00:57, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
This should be a case request and not at ARCA. I assume the clerks will move this if there is interest in a case. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Regarding a case: I don't see a strong need for an "American Politics 3" ARBCOM case at this time. Content disputes are often very heated in the area, and the project would benefit from several editors observing a page-ban from Donald Trump and its talk page. But that can be handled under existing discretionary sanctions. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Regarding clarification: I feel there should be a generally-understood scope for a topic-ban on "Donald Trump, broadly construed"; when these have been issued (as opposed to a page-ban or a full AP2 topic ban) they have turned into excessive wiki-lawyering. I have not been able to come up with any specific proposal that is an improvement, and the committee may want to simply discourage the use of a "Trump TBAN", and that admins should use a full AP2 topic-ban when that is necessary. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't see anything preventing me from acting on MrX's diffs per the AP2 discretionary sanctions, no matter where the diffs have been filed, so long as I've seen them. I have therefore topic banned Atsme indefinitely from post-1932 American politics. The ban is a regular discretionary sanctions ban per single admin discretion, and can be appealed at AN, AE or ARCA in the usual way. It can be appealed right away, certainly, but after that, no more frequently than every six months. I thought at first a topic ban from Donald Trump and related pages might do it, but Beyond My Ken's argument here against Donald Trump bans convinced me against that. I institute this ban per all MrX's categories: wikilawyering, long-time persistent resistance to good advice, repeating arguments ad nauseum, filibustering and dominating discussions without bringing them forward, and, most of all, for repeatedly discrediting reliable sources. Drmies has explained very well the harm the last point does. Not all MrX's diffs are impressive, but together they paint a pretty appalling picture of an editing pattern that drains the time and energy of other users and is a persistent negative on talkpages. I should say that Am Pol is no rosegarden even if we disregard Atsme's input, and probably won't be one even if my ban is upheld. Several people have recommended an AP3 case to deal with the chaos on Trump-related pages. Personally, though, I feel that AP2 does give admins the ability to act decisively. Anyway, whether or not such an arbitration case is brought, or indeed an individual case to deal with Atsme's Am Pol editing, I don't see why I shouldn't try to take care of this gas leak. As Fyddlestix says, it's a start and a step worth taking. [12] Atsme is an OTRS volunteer; I believe this topic ban precludes her from having anything to do with e-mails that concern American politics, but that's a little too arcane for me; perhaps, as long as we are on the ARCA page, the arbitrators would like to clarify that matter?
I too want to express my regret. Atsme is a fine contributor in other areas, and I'm a great admirer of the photographic art she contributes to the project. Like several previous years, I've voted for one of her amazing pictures in the ongoing Commons Picture of the Year contest. Bishonen | talk 09:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC).
Well, if an arbcom case were opened, not sure where to begin. The problem with any politics, especially the most recent ones, is all we really have are news clips, written almost always in an audience satisfying manner, as sources. Of course these sources, if we are talking about major news networks, are deemed reliable. But they are, a great number of them, also geared to grab attention, not peer reviewed and lack the journalistic integrity of scientific papers. This sourcing for recent politics is going to suffer the inevitable bias of writers who are seeing things through the lens of immediacy, and not through the lens of hind sight. The inevitable outcome is articles about recent events and people that are far below quality levels of the website's best articles. Arguing, even forcefully, about whether a news feed is neutral is, a worthy effort. Comparing subpar articles to FA level articles is a worthy effort. Fighting to make sure articles, especially BLPs, are neutrally covered, is a worthy effort. I write fighting in a figurative way...in that protecting BLPs is paramount and I have long felt very disturbed when editors clearly state, not only in words but also in actions, how much they have a distaste for a subject, then turn around and blatantly fight to add all the negativism they can and work to eliminate all the positives they can, and use noticeboards to try and eliminate their editing adversaries and the same noticeboards to defend their editing allies. But far more chilling and despicable than that, is when those in positions of higher trust and power, also insult, ridicule and bully those they disagree with politically both on the article talkpages and the user talks and noticeboards as well. Indeed, were an arbcom case filed, not sure where to even begin as the problems are so pervasive here and some actions so obvious, that any neutral party recently arrived at this website and seeing how this all unfolds would surely declare that all this is insanity and fully noncompliant with any semblance of neutrality or fairness. MONGO ( talk) 12:43, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Although initial reaction from Rob, et al. was understandable, it's time to realize this has moved on, well passed that.
Atsme has accused a person, and relevant here, an admin of stalking [13] and abusing admin status (an admin action, ban, predicated on the diffs in this very filing by Mr. X). Per WP:NOTBUREAU, treat this as an appeal of a ban to be heard here, or the ctte should motion it into a case. DO NOT send this anywhere else for more (disruptive) process. You are the only ctte set-up that deals with precisely this stuff. -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 13:57, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by SMcCandlish at 09:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
WP:ARBATC's application of discretionary sanctions (DS) to WP:Article titles, WP:Manual of Style, and related pages (MoS subpages, and AT's split-off naming conventions [NC] guidelines) has never been helpful, and is certainly no longer needed.
February 2017 re-scoping motion: It not only invalidated many of the previous ARBATC DS sanctions as having been out-of-scope, it made these DS so constrained – to only the AT/MOS pages and their talk pages – that they're effectively inapplicable. Almost all "style"-related disruptive activity takes place on article talk pages, mostly in WP:Requested moves threads (and most of the rest is at wikiproject talk pages). ArbCom was made aware of this, yet chose to drastically limit the DS scope anyway.
The committee themselves clearly recognize that the DS hammer should not be brought to bear on policy- and guideline-interpretation discussions broadly, and that normal community and administrative remedies are sufficient for disruptive activity in them. This was a wise decision, as an earlier ArbCom effectively telling the community that if anyone momentarily loses their temper in a WP:P&G-related thread it may result in unusual punishment is ultimately a separation of powers problem, an interference in WP's self-governance. WP policy material evolves over time in response to such discussions; it is not an immutable law no one is permitted to question. This was actually a central point in the ARBATC case itself (see initial comments by Tony1, for example).
"Enforcement log": It's just a short list of early recipients of {{
Ds/alert|at}}
, and there have been many more since. These notices/warnings officially expire after a year anyway. Twice already ArbCom has instructed that any items in that list that need to be retained should be merged into the newer DS logging system and this old "scarlet letter" material removed, yet it still hasn't been done years later.
Effect on sanctions: If the ARBATC DS are ended, this mustn't affect sanctions issued while DS were in effect. Let's not create another wikilawyering angle to exploit! If DS were the prescribed means in 2016 for dealing with AT/MoS disruption then they were that means, and the community should not have to re-re-re-litigate to restrain a disruptor from returning to the same activity on a technicality.
Standing: I was named as a party, despite no connection to the actual ARBATC dispute ("MoS editors" guilt by association). Since then, I've seen and personally felt WP:ARBATC#Discretionary sanctions doing nothing but causing trouble for Wikipedia and its editorial community – from punitive, disproportionate, and one-sided sanctions, to years of drama-mongering, to a disengagement of the community from its own policy and guideline pages; all while the DS have failed to actually help the community expediently resolve any actual At/MoS-related disruption.
The ARBATC DS are probably the single most obvious failure of DS to be a useful solution. Not every problem's a nail, so a hammer isn't the only tool we should use.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 09:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
The chilling effect isn't a chill on disruption. The ARBATC DS are virtually never applied to anyone who shows up to AT or MoS and starts being disruptive; regulars at those pages are more likely to be subjected to boomerang sanctions for daring to complain about the disrupters. This is one reason we virtually never bring RFARB, ARCA, or AE actions against anyone (another is that the regulars at the pages aren't battlegrounders, but shepherds; we're averse to drama, and we seek stability and smooth sailing, even if we don't all agree on things.) The chilling effect is on general participation. People used to engage much more often, and more broadly from throughout the editorial pool, at these pages, but DS immediately cast a pall and it's never dissipated. I go out of my way to draw broader attention (e.g. at WP:VPPOL) to MOS/AT/NC/DAB-related RfCs, but overall the participation in them is markedly lower today than in 2012 when the DS were implemented, even if you account for the smaller overall editorial pool.
The minor bits of disruption we've seen and where DS were applied (at least in the abstract, i.e. warnings) were all blips that could have be dealt with at ANI or ANEW or with a DS-unrelated civility warning. Meanwhile, the two actually severe bouts of disruption (which I mentioned already) happened after the DS. The DS were not used to prevent the problems; the community resolved the first on its own; and the second dragged on until the situation became so intolerable that someone did finally try using AE, long after much of the damage was done, and then it just turned into three years of additional drama. The only thing like this that happened before the DS was the date auto-linking and auto-formatting squabbles, which were not the ARBATC issue, but handled in an earlier RFARB,
WP:ARBDATE – and handled without DS.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 16:08, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
The perhaps predictable devolution of this ARCA into "find some way to point the finger at the ARCA request even after AN concluded in the other direction, and even though this ARCA is about DS and the topic area not this editor in particular" actually serves to highlight what's wrong with DS in this area in the first place. It's disappointing to encounter what looks like an implication that I must have some kind of nefarious motive in questioning DS's application to AT/MOS. This isn't about me (I haven't had a personal issue with ARBATC DS in years). What happed to AGF, and ARBATC's own instructions to not personalize style disputes? :-/ — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
This ARCA is obviously going nowhere, so I'll just drop it and wait for another ArbCom. The passage of time, the collection of further evidence of mis-application and of failure of DS to work in this area, and simple cycling out of some committee members seems likely to be necessary to get the nebulously menaching fog lifted off these policypages. DS never should have been applied to this in the first place, given that the rationale for it was just a petty four-editor squabble that would have resolved itself soon enough anyway. ARBATC#Discretionary_sanctions was an over-reaction. By current standards, DS would not have been applied in that case. The reluctance of ArbCom today to impose DS doesn't square with its simultaneous reluctance to un-impose old DS where DS would not have been imposed today. And the fact that ARBATC DS have been invoked for warnings twice in half a year is trivial, in no way suggestive that DS works in this area. This is basically
magical thinking. "It rained last night, after I prayed to the rain gods, ergo prayer works." I've offered far more plausible explanations above why AT/MoS see less dispute today than they did in 2011.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 10:11, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
I find this an odd request, given that within the last month Darkfrog24 had an appeal of their topic ban placed under these discretionary sanctions declined, a one-way I bad against Smccandlish (the nominator here) added to that topic ban, and a short block for breaching the topic ban during the appeal imposed. They were indeffed by NeilN later the same day for breaching their topic ban on their talk page. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive235#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Darkfrog24 and user talk:Darkfrog24. Given this very recent history (7 June) of ATC discretionary sanctions being actively used, I would be inclined to say that they are currently still needed. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:19, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
I believe that the discretionary sanctions are particularly important on MOS pages, which by the subjective nature of the content are more prone to personal arguments than many other pages. I wanted to post a few links in particular, which may or may not be informative about the continuing benefit of DS. From a MOS-related RFC in December: [17], from earlier this week [18] [19] ("childish"), and from today [20]. This is the tone with discretionary sanctions in effect.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Notifications and warnings issued prior to the introduction of the current procedure on 3 May 2014 are not sanctions and remain on the individual case page logs."). It's true that some portion of the work from implementing the DS procedure changes remains on the clerks' to-do list, but this is not one of them. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 15:50, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Crouch, Swale at 19:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
Can I have my editing restriction of page creation and discussion of NC and moves please. I have waited 6 months and edited as instructed. I have not had any problems with my moves on Commons and know that I need to follow consensus and propose potentially controversial moves. With creations I have to some extent reached an agreement with Nilfanion. I will mainly be creating pages for missing civil parishes and I will likely discuss with Nilfanion if I intend to create a large number of other topics. Note that I might not be around much next week but I hope that doesn't cause too many problems with this. I have never been blocked on Commons or had editing restrictions there, however if there is concern about my contributions which shouldn't happen, I will voluntary agree to restrictions, for example I have to discuss all moves I make.
Can I ask what this is about? Beyond My Ken ( talk) 03:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure I'm a party to this, but clearly I'm interested. I'd urge ArbCom to read this discussion on my talk page. I'm surprised that he immediately came here at the 6 month (though I shouldn't be). My intentions were (and still are) to try and support him over the coming weeks/months to prove he can write good articles, and demonstrate he now has the key skills he lacked in the past and would likely produce new articles in a non-disruptive manner. If he had done so, at that point I'd have been inclined to approach ArbCom on his behalf to urge the restrictions were withdrawn.
The behaviour that triggered his initial block was generated by the mass creation of stubs on minor geographic places (leading to work at AFD, effort in merging into sensible parent articles, pointless templates being created etc). When he didn't stop that quickly death spiralled into socking. His comments, both during the discussion on my talk page and in his statement here, trouble me:
All of these points suggest to me the potential for future disruption identical to what triggered the initial block.
Recent activity on Commons at CFD (the closest analog to WP:RM) may be of interest to ArbCom, as it shows other aspects of his behaviour: This show him closing a very high impact case, with minimal involvement from others. He did not initially care about fixing the consequences. He frets about "correctness" a lot, especially with following the one true source, and makes a lot of moves as a result. If he was allowed, he is bound to do the same on Wikipedia. His understanding definitely varies from Wikipedia norms. Some examples of moves: [21] is at variance with an old WP discussion. [22] quotes WP:UKPLACE incorrectly (it applies to settlements, not natural features). [23] to remove hyphens (not used by his preferred source, but used by other sources).
Based on the evidence above, at this time I oppose removal of the restrictions on article creation and removal of the restrictions on page moving. The other restrictions (no involvement in RM, or in discussions about naming conventions) could be removed - that would give Crouch, Swale to the ability to demonstrate on Wikipedia that the page move restrictions could be safely relaxed in future.
@ BU Rob13: Crouch, Swale hasn't contributed to any requested moves since he was unblocked, because his current restrictions prevent him from doing so. See my comment above about Commons, for similar activity on that project.-- Nilf anion ( talk) 18:52, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Concur with Nilfanion. The very recent thread at [24] indicates insufficient cluefullness (still, somehow). Given the previous track-record of grossly disruptive socking and endless creation of pointless one-liners, a desire to keep creating micro-stubs after all this is a big red-flag. I agree with Nilfanion's WP:ROPE idea of easing some other restrictions, but there should be no hesitation in re-imposing the RM/move ban should more trouble arise in that area. We already have too high of a noise:signal and heat:light ratio in that sector. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:32, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Also concur with BU Rob13 here; it's not really possible to do much at RM without referring to the naming conventions and their applicability/non-applicability to the case at hand. If you can't do those things, you'd be reduced to WP:JUSTAVOTE in many cases, and that is discouraged. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:59, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The topic ban from discussions on geographic naming conventions imposed on Crouch, Swale ( talk · contribs) as part of their unblock conditions in January 2018 is suspended for a period of six months. During the period of suspension, this restriction may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator, as an arbitration enforcement action, should Crouch, Swale fail to adhere to any normal editorial process or expectations in the topic area. Appeal of such a reinstatement would follow the normal arbitration enforcement appeals process. After six months from the date this motion is enacted, if the restriction has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the restriction will automatically lapse. Crouch, Swale's remaining restrictions continue in force.
Enacted -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 05:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Guy Macon at 02:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
(Please let me know if I should post a notice on the talk pages of the participants at the noticeboard) -- Guy Macon ( talk) 02:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Per the discussions at Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Clarifying policy and Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Why not just ask Arbcom?, I would like to request clarification/guidance concerning Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Return of access levels? and Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Restoration of permissions
In particular, some participants in the above-referenced discussions have focused upon...
...from restoration of permissions, arguing that if at the time of the resignation there did not exist an active case at Arbcom or WP:AN that had a reasonable chance of leading to sanctions or desysopping, restoration should be automatic.
On the other hand some participants in the above-referenced discussions have focused upon...
...from return of access levels, arguing that if there have been significant complaints that may have, if not for the discussion being shut down by the resignation, led to an active case at Arbcom or WP:AN that may have lead to sanctions or desysopping, an new RfA should be required.
The Bureaucrats were split 4 to 6 on this with one 'crat saying...
"So I'd err on resysopping someone who may or may not be or been have desysopping by arbcom and let arbcom deal with desysopping if they so choose."
...while another wrote...
"Obviously the community does not allow us to stand in for ArbCom and stand in judgment over resigned administrators. But I don't think that means our job is just to return the tools absent evidence of the worst kind of misconduct. The community has authorized us only to return the tools in uncontroversial circumstances. So I'd err the other way. If not relatively uncontroversial, I think RfA is the way to go."
Pretty much everyone, editors and 'crats, agreed with the opinion, expressed at Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Clarifying policy, that "My honest and unprejudiced reading of the evidence presented is that it clearly does not cross a bright line. Yet I find many honest and unprejudiced Wikipedians who I respect disagree with me. I take from this that our policy isn't clear enough."
This may result in an RfC, but even if it does, I think that some clarification from Arbcom concerning the return of access levels section of the Scientology case would help to avoid the participants in the RfC simply repeating the same confusion regarding policy.
I will post a link to this on the Bureaucrats' noticeboard. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 02:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Although it may be more proper to suggest wording at an RfC rather than through an ARCA. I think the Arbs may be able to further clarify their interpretation by expanding on, in a more general manner, the example provided in the case. That may be reaching beyond the scope because I do not believe there was a need to make a more general interpretation to rule on the circumstances of the case. Jbh Talk 03:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC)An administrator who resigned at a time when there was either an ongoing formal process which was avoided, circumvented, or minimized as a result of their resignation ie actively avoiding scrutiny or in circumstances where such a process was reasonably likely to follow if the admin did not resign ie controversial circumstances may only regain the bit via a new RfA.
A concern some of us raised over at BN is that any active (or at least "enforcing") admin always has various people upset at them and convinced they're a "badmin". Judging whether someone resigned "under a cloud" needs to be tied to whether formal process against the admin (for admin actions, or actions that could have called into question admin suitability), was under way when they resigned. It's not sufficient that the admin was criticized or had "enemies". In the case that triggered this debate, the returning ex-admin had not been subject to formal scrutiny when resigning, but did have some other editors angry at them. Taking a long wikibreak in the face of drama, short of noticeboard or ArbCom scrutiny of one's admin or adminship-affecting activities, shouldn't force a re-RfA. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:20, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
WP:Bureaucrats (including
WP:RESYSOP) is not policy (or even "guideline") and never has been; the reason it has the cumbersome
Wikipedia:Bureaucrats/Header at the top rather than the usual {{
policy}} or {{
guideline}} reflects the fact that no attempt to elevate it to anything more than an informal set of notes has ever been successful. As far as I'm aware, the resysop procedures never have been formally codified, other than in a few old arb cases like Scientology. The closest thing we have to a formal policy is the relevant part of the closure of
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Bureaucrat removal of adminship policy, which is the rather unhelpful Administrators that did not resign in controversial circumstances and whose identity is not in question will be reinstated as per resysopping policy
, which still punts it back to the 'crats to determine what constitutes "controversial circumstances". (There might be some RFCs regarding the limits of 'crat discretion from the time of
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Elonka and
associated recall petition or from
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Danny 2 but I'm no great desire to reopen those cans of worms, and in any case that was an eternity ago in Wikipedia years and the much more recent
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Bureaucrat removal of adminship policy would have superseded any decisions reached.) ‑
Iridescent 10:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I first want to echo everything Iridescent said above me. The Resysopping section was
added in early 2010 (
BN discussion) and has since been expanded to incorporate the
inactive admin policy (
BN discussion) and note the
principle in question. While the procedures have existed in a largely similar form for years — I imagine NYB's history and institutional knowledge will be quite helpful! — to my knowledge Iri is correct that in large part they haven't been officially codified. I suppose it might be helpful for the Committee to clarify how broadly they think Scientology's circumstances of controversy
should be interpreted by Bureaucrats (perhaps by noting they need not be "formal," whatever that means), but I think that's somewhat missing the point. It's not for the Committee to make policy, so if the community wishes to codify, clarify, or change policy as to how Bureaucrats interpret the proverbial cloud, we can (and should, as it seems Bureaucrats themselves would appreciate it).
To wit, I largely agree with Callanecc and Alex Shih that there isn't much for ArbCom to do here. To
repeat and
paraphrase my comments at BN, the process is working, even if some folks disagree with the latest outcome. That there is disagreement on a particular situation from different Bureaucrats is not prima facie evidence that the process is broken, just that Bureaucrats sometimes have hard jobs. The part that I see that could merit clarification from ArbCom is in the next line of that Principle: Determining whether an administrator resigned under controversial circumstances is, in most cases, in the discretion of the bureaucrats
(emphasis added). I take that vagueness to refer to cases involving special authority — ArbCom, Jimbo, WMF, etc. — but if there is confusion as to what the Committee feels doesn't fall under 'crat purview, that could be worth clarifying. ~ Amory (
u •
t •
c) 18:18, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
were there controversial circumstances?and refrained from voting. The one bureaucrat in favour of support ( Deskana) had their concerns addressed after additional comments by Xaosflux, Useight and SoWhy. In their response to Deskana, the bureaucrat voted oppose (Useight) expressed that they are "okay" with resysop. This leaves us with WJBscribe and Acalamari to be the two remaining votes strongly in oppose of resysop. But despite of voting strong oppose, WJBscribe did not contest Dweller's close even though they commented in their talk page afterwards. Therefore I disagree with the assessment that Dweller acted against policy and/or participated in bureaucrat supervote. Alex Shih ( talk) 08:13, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Return of access levels. Users who give up their sysop (or other) powers and later return and request them back may have them back automatically, provided they did not leave under controversial circumstances. Users who do leave under controversial circumstances must go through the normal channels to get them back. Determining whether a user left under controversial circumstances is, in most cases, to be left up to bureaucrats' discretion.
An administrator who requests desysopping while an arbitration case or a request for arbitration is pending against him or her will be deemed to have left under circumstances of controversy, unless the Arbitration Committee deems otherwise, for purposes of applying this principle, whether or not the arbitration case is accepted.
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 100 | Archive 101 | Archive 102 | Archive 103 | Archive 104 | Archive 105 | → | Archive 110 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Swarm at 00:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Greetings. So, WP:TROUBLES#Guide to enforcement contains a 2011 provision that places all pages in the topic area under a blanket 1RR page restriction that is specifically enforceable without warning, provided {{ Troubles restriction}} has been placed on the talk page. This directly contradicts the current awareness criteria for enforcing page restrictions, and it's unclear to me whether that provision is exempt from, or has been superseded by, the modern awareness criteria that were implemented in 2014 and 2018. In spite of the contradiction with standard practice, it continues to be advertised as an active sanction on many articles, which is apparently validated on the case page. However, there's no apparent record, anywhere, of an intentional exemption to ArbCom's now-standardized procedure regarding awareness. It also claims to derive its authority, at least in part, from a community decision, but there is no record of such a restriction at WP:GS or on the case page, so it's unclear as to whether the "no warning" provision is actually the will of the community. Thanks in advance.
The 1RR restriction originated from an AE discussion in 2008 and was clarified in an ANI discussion in 2009. It's not clear whether the 2011 motion superseding "all extant remedies" actually superseded these restrictions, since these aren't actually arbcom remedies, but looking at the history of User:Coren/draft this appears to be the intent.
Additionally, it is not clear whether and how the later changes to the DS system impact a page restriction imposed in 2011 given the provisions in
WP:AC/DS#Continuity (Nothing in this current version of the discretionary sanctions process constitutes grounds for appeal of a remedy or restriction imposed under prior versions of it.
and All sanctions and restrictions imposed under earlier versions of this process remain in force.
).
T. Canens (
talk) 08:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
As the Committee noted in adopting the most recent amendments to the DS procedure, the point of having warnings is that it's fundamentally unfair to subject people to penalties for violating sanctions they didn't know about. That's what notifications and alerts are all about. There's nothing stopping admins from using the existing, well-functioning procedure to tag each page with 1RR and alerting each editor before using the blunt tool of AE sanctions against them, just like in (almost) every other topic area that the Committee has imposed DS in. In my view, any disruption in this area can be handled with existing discretionary sanctions. I suggest that the Committee vacate any Troubles topic-wide 1RR that may (or may not) be currently in effect for the sake of clarity and fairness.
Also, I strongly believe that the recent motion concerning page sanctions applies to all previous page sanctions, too. The Committee didn't technically vacate or invalidate the page restrictions – it simply placed restrictions on enforcing them by sanctioning editors, going forward. (The motion provided that "There are additional requirements in place when sanctioning editors for breaching page restrictions." – this doesn't invalidate the page sanctions, but it does create new restrictions on enforcing them.) If that argument sounds too wikilawyery, the more pure argument is that the clear intent of the Committee was to make the change applicable to existing sanctions, too. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 21:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
From the earlier statements by arbs and other admins, it is evident that we don't yet agree on whether the existing sanctions on The Troubles-related articles are subject to the awareness principle or not. Hence this clarification request is valid and necessary.
Gnomish editors are prone to falling foul of 1RR restrictions if there isn't an awareness clause. I often make reverts on articles I pass by, only to find out afterwards that the article is subject to 1RR. The recent fiasco with the block against seasoned administrator User:Jorm, which could have been averted if there was an explicit requirement to warn before blocking, also springs to mind. I strongly recommend ArbCom to amend this case and other old case with bespoke 1RR sanctions, to enshrine the awareness principle and standardise them to standard 1RR discretionary sanctions. Deryck C. 17:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The Arbitration Committee clarifies the following: All sanctions placed under remedy 3.2 of The Troubles prior to its replacement with remedy 5 are considered discretionary sanctions. Specifically, the 1RR sanction affecting the topic area is considered a form of page restriction placed as a discretionary sanction, and the additional awareness requirements regarding page restrictions apply.
Enacted - Mini apolis 14:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by El cid, el campeador at 00:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Currently, there is a discretionary sanctions notice on the Stanley Kubrick talk page, alerting users not to add an infobox. That, I understand. But, there is also a notice to not discuss infoboxes on the talk page. To me, this goes against everything that WP is built upon, namely robust discussion and consensus-building. The intended purpose of talk pages is to discuss ways to improve the articles. Issuing a gag order on discussion doesn't seem right. Therefore, I propose removing that part of the DS notice.
The reason I added the sanction at all was mainly the disruption on the talkpage, with new discussions and "straw polls" erupting again and again, draining the energy of everybody who felt constrained to weigh in yet again in order to have their opinion counted. See my full rationale, and support from uninvolved admins, including two arbitrators, in this AE discussion. Bishonen | talk 06:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC).
Just no.WP seems to have a quite-proficient cottage-industry (esp. in this area) wherein there's a tendency to throw the same shit at the same wall, until some of it sticks.Any measure to counteract such activities ought be appreciated.And, time has shown that the infobox discussion(s) over the particular page are nothing but acrimonious and only lead to a hostile atmosphere, with zero development to the content.
An edit war is easily handled with protection or blocks. It is the talk talk talk that corrodes the community. The wiki way would be to brawl for another three months, but discretionary sanctions are provided to prevent such unproductive fights. No RfC has found that infoboxes are required so there is no reason to worry that people won't be able to argue until 10 September 2018 when the discretionary sanctions expire. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:11, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
We can wait until September 2018. In the meantime, our planet will continue to rotate. GoodDay ( talk) 11:44, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
It's pretty common for a community consensus to come up with a moratorium on re-re-re-discussing that which was just discussed to death again at the same page. It appears to be within WP:AC/DS parameters for an admin to apply a similar anti-disruption remedy as a discretionary sanction, especially since it's not targeted at anyone in particular, but just puts up a temporary forcefield around two combatant sides so the rest of the peeps are not caught in the continual crossfire and can get on with the real work. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:13, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, but they are not carved in stone; their content and interpretation can evolve over time.So I see this as a very valid interpretation of the pillars and principles of Wikipedia. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 04:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by NeilN at 17:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Can I get a quick clarification from Arbcom on how they want admins to handle WP:MOSMAC (which has the the force of an Arbcom decision behind it) in light of this. I'm already seeing name changes on some articles contravening "Republic of Macedonia", the full self-identifying official name, will be used in all contexts where other countries would also be called by their full official names. Enforce MOSMAC as usual with reverts until and if the name change becomes official and then change the guideline? I ask because uninvolved admins usually stay clear of naming disputes and "when to change the name" discussions but in this case it's a name mandated by an Arbcom case. -- NeilN talk to me 17:30, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
AFAIK, the change is not yet official because the constitution has to be amended. Just keep the name as it is now until the change to the constitution is made official. – Illegitimate Barrister ( talk • contribs), 18:31, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Like others here, I'd strongly recommend to not change anything for the time being, at least for as long as the change hasn't become official. Once it has, we should probably first have a systematic new naming disucssion/RfC, as there will be quite a few non-trivial issues to decide. Sure, renaming the main article will be a no-brainer, but what about the dozens of other article titles that contain the name? Will all references to the country in running text have to be changed? What about adjectival forms like "the Macedonian government"? Of course, the Greek side is quite insistent that the new name should be used erga omnes, by and towards everybody, and that this is part of the deal, but will the common usage of the English speech community follow this, or will plain "Macedonia" remain in common informal use among third parties? If it does, to what extent should Wikipedia's usage reflect the official position? There'll be some consensus building to do and it will take some time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:56, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
We should enforce MOSMAC until the renaming becomes official, which is expected to happen at the end of 2018. When it becomes official we should use the name "Republic of North Macedonia" instead of currently used "Republic of Macedonia". Regarding the adjectival forms "the Macedonian government" or "the North Macedonian government" - this have to be discussed. In the press-conference the Prime Minister Zoran Zaev used the term "Ministry of Health of the Republic of North Macedonia" and "Macedonian healthcare" as an examples. The second thing we should discuss on after it becomes official is the short term "Macedonia" which we currently in use for the republic and it's replacement by "North Macedonia". -- StanProg ( talk) 19:44, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
must end one month after it is opened
should probably be must end no earlier than one month after it is opened
--no reason to be so precise. You might also reasonable specify the number of days a month constitutes (or take our common understanding to be the same date one month later). --
Izno (
talk) 00:33, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
There's going to be a referendum later this year, on whether or not to accept the proposed name change. We shouldn't be changing the name now, per WP:CRYSTAL. -- GoodDay ( talk) 13:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
The proposed motion makes sense. Perhaps it should be amended to clarify that the RfC should not be launched until the naming dispute is considered fully resolved by the authorities of both countries involved. Recent media reports indicate that the Macedonian president intends to veto the new name "Northern Macedonia", so this might still take a while. Sandstein 18:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Of course, Wikipedia should reflect an accurate, current name. I see that the below motion is currently gaining support, and I do believe it should pass. Since the current policy has the force of ArbCom behind it, it makes sense to have an ArbCom clarification. Regarding a future RfC, others have pointed out that the change is not official yet. If we're going to have a month-long RfC, we should do it as soon as practicable, rather than waiting for the change of name to be signed, sealed and delivered. Of course, the RfC shouldn't go into effect until that is the case. However, if we waited, there will be a month where we are inundated by people trying to change the name. There will be many page protections, plenty of edit warring blocks and a smattering of inconsistencies. If we run the RfC now, we can avoid all that drama. Furthermore, if, as mentioned by several others, this proposal is stopped, then we will have plenty of time to discuss any alternative proposal and no harm is done.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The Arbitration Committee clarifies that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia) may be modified by an RfC discussion. The discussion must remain open for at least one month after it is opened, and the consensus must be assessed by a panel of three uninvolved contributors. In assessing the consensus, the panel is instructed to disregard any opinion which does not provide a clear and reasonable rationale explained by reference to the principles of naming conventions and of disambiguation, or which is inconsistent with the principles of the neutral point of view policy or the reliable sources guideline.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by MrX at 19:40, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Greetings. I am bringing this here at the recommendation of several AE admins because it's not well suited to WP:AE. The matter concerns the article talk page participation by Atsme in the American politics topic area, that I believe to be disruptive and damaging to the collaborative editing process. As shown in the small sampling of diffs below, Atsme makes a lot of article talk page comments, a great many of which do not positively contribute to building consensus or resolving content disputes. Many of the comments are classic Whataboutism. Others are just off-topic screeds, diversions, defensive reactions to other's comments, dead horse beating, and attempts at levity.
The most troubling comments are the ones that undermine the credibility of highly-respected sources that are prominently used throughout enwiki. These take the form of characterizing sources like The Washington Post and The New York Times as biased, propaganda, clickbait, biased against Trump, rumor, and gossip. She also has a tendency to falsely refer to verifiable facts as "opinion". Her arguments are frequently based on fringe viewpoints typically found on websites like Breitbart, and are often based on fallacious reasoning.
She makes a disproportionately-high number of comments. In the past six months, more than 7 percent of the comments at talk:Donald Trump have come from her, out of 93 editors who have commented in the same period. That would be fine if she were moving discussions toward consensus or resolution, but that is rarely the case. What usually happens if the she will make increasingly tendentious arguments, and then when criticized for doing so, she gets defensive. Her arguments usually convey a tone of self-appointed WP:POVFIGHTER and frequently contain multiple shortcuts to policies that almost all experienced editors are very well-versed in. She often rehashes arguments that have already been put to rest.
Atsme seems to be a warm and affable person who is rarely uncivil, and who I believe is sincere in her participation in the project. She has made some outstanding contributions to building the encyclopedia in areas outside of American politics, and I have great respect for her for that. It seems though that she has an ideological blind spot which affects her objectivity, and manifests as large amounts of low signal-to-noise ratio commentary.
I am hopeful that Arbcom can deal with this without a full case. I know there are a lot of diffs (and I apologize), but since the behavior is cumulative, rather than incidental, I can't come up with a better way to present this. Sections are roughly arranged in descending degree of concern, and sampling a few diffs should be compelling.
Thank you for your time.
Frequently adds multiple, irrelevant policy shortcuts to he comments
Numerous attempts have been made to get Atsme to follow WP:TPG and and to participate more constructively in content discussions. She has rebuffed all of these efforts.
Frequently misuses WP:NOTNEWS in content disputes. [7] [8] [9] [10]
I am respectfully requesting that the admins reviewing this case please forgive me for not being able to respond to this case. I am feeling more hurt by what MrX just attempted to do than I am upset over it. I'm not sure if what Drmies concluded hurt me more...but it cuts to the core. For me to respond to these allegations, I would have to provide diffs showing their bad behavior...we all know how that game is played, but I am not here to hurt other editors, or to try to silence them because I disagree with their POV or the material they've added or removed. I have always honored consensus - I am here to build an encyclopedia - to participate in collegial debates and present reasonable arguments. I believe that is exactly what I have done, and if the admins who are here to review my behavior will look at the full discussions and not just the cherrypicked diffs, I believe they will agree. I have always tried to include RS with my comments, but...again...I am a bit overwhelmed right now. I don't have it in me to fight this because in order to defend myself, it will be at their expense, and I don't have the heart to do that. Atsme 📞 📧 21:20, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I couldn't sleep thinking about this very sad state of affairs, and the intent behind it. I don't see how it can be anything else but a deceitful, premeditated plan to eliminate editors they consider the opposition, and because it couldn't be done any other way, MrX chose to game the system, and inundate ArbCom with months of cherrypicked diffs taken out of context to create a false impression. This is clearly a case of WP:POV railroad, thinking it was the only to stop a productive, collaborative editor who never showed ill-will or wished any harm on anyone.
Please keep in mind that the articles in question are subject DS restrictions/1RR-consensus required; therefore, editors have no choice but to participate in relentless discussions on the TP in order to achieve consensus. The process involves nearly every single piece of material that is added or reverted. Of course you will see more input on the TP of those articles, and far more disagreement - just look at the sizes of the Trump articles. The WP:OWN behavior of MrX and others who share his POV, have made the editing environment at those articles very unfriendly with a noticeable resistance to collaborative editing with those whose views differ from their own.
There is no indication of any incivility on my part; rather there is an indication of WP:IDONTLIKEIT by MrX and those who support his POV. Worse yet, the threat by Drmies to me in this diff speaks volumes about this case now: "someone somewhere is marking this down to gather evidence for a topic ban”.
I tried to avoid this - it cuts deeply - but the deceit and the intent to cause me harm when I've tried so hard to do the right thing was simply overwhelming. I believe the evidence I've provided justifies a TB on all Trump-related articles broadly construed for MrX and Drmies, both of whom have demonstrated an obvious disdain for Trump that effects their ability to edit those articles in compliance with NPOV. Their bias is overwhelming, their behavior is shameful, especially that of an administrator I once trusted, and there are several other editors who harbor the same disdain for Trump who also need to be included in that TB. Atsme 📞 📧 09:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Very disappointing to see this posted here. I would encourage ArbCom, if they are to look into this matter, to look at the whole topic instead of focusing on one editor. For example, over the past year MrX has been very effective removing editors with a different POV than theirs from the topic area. This sort of diff stalking, collecting, and deep diving is somewhat troubling and chilling at the very least. MrX was recently warned about this - see here. Some of the diffs presented here are from a while ago, so it is really disturbing to think there are editors out there holding on to this stuff for months and even years.
Arbcom should dismiss this, or open a full case to look at the entire topic area. Mr Ernie ( talk) 20:09, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Commenting purely about procedural aspects, I don't see what the Committee can do here, in the form of an amendment or clarification. This is the sort of thing that AE, based on the DS from American Politics 2, should be able to handle. Now having said that, it has been my recent experience that AE has been failing miserably at dealing with AP2 cases. It tends to look like the AE administrators can't make up their minds about whether or not they are being asked to resolve content disputes, so they keep punting. Sorry to tell you this, but you are eventually going to have to take an AP3 case, and in the meantime, the AP2 content area is a toxic waste dump that does not come down to just one or two editors. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:18, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
MrX wrote in the opening of his statement: "I am bringing this here at the recommendation of several AE admins because it's not well suited to WP:AE"
I'm curious about (1) What this is supposed to mean; (2) Whether it means administrators have approached him either on- or off-Wiki to lobby him for bringing a case against Atsme here. I would like the statement clarified. I would also like to know if there have been administrators encouraging him to bring a case against Atsme - and if that's the case, (a) it's very troubling that there has been a coordination of attack by admins against an editor, and (b) who are these admins?
For the sake of transparency, this statement needs to be clarified and the community needs to know what communication off-wiki has taken place that was a precursor to this case being brought.
Aside from this, I agree in total with Mr Ernie's statement above. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:21, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Drmies, a few things you've said below need to be addressed, especially since several who've commented here have mentioned the AP2 articles in general and have suggested topic bans for a number of editors at those articles. The statement I'm going to comment on is this:
"this cynicism toward reliable sources and reputable media leads to an erosion of trust and in a community that wants to produce an encyclopedia we cannot have that. It takes too much time and energy to counter the many, many unfounded allegations, which drags along editors who might otherwise stay out of the area but who know see their Facebook thread reflected in Wikipedia. In return, other editors are chased out of the area because it is just not worth their time and energy"
None of this is Atsme's fault. None of this is one editor's fault, or even the fault of a couple of editors -- probably not even most. It's the fault, in large part, of however it all spun out of control. No fingers being pointed by me -- but it has to be solved not by topic banning editors, something more meaningful and long-lasting than a bandaid needs to be applied. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
For Winkelvi and others: Previous procedural discussion. No editors were specifically mentioned and I was unsure if a group of editors was going to be reported. -- NeilN talk to me 20:30, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
"Atsme seems to be a warm and affable person who is rarely uncivil, and who I believe is sincere in her participation in the project. She has made some outstanding contributions to building the encyclopedia in areas outside of American Politics, and I have great respect for her for that. It seems though that she has an ideological blind spot which affects here objectivity, and manifests as large amounts of low signal-to-noise ratio commentary." I couldn't agree more, and the list of diffs, and their analysis, bears this out. I'm sorry it has to come to this, but esp. the constant misunderstanding of fact vs. opinion and the attendant casting doubt on reliable sources (and the very concept thereof) is highly disruptive. Drmies ( talk) 20:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
PS, about the Atsme stuff: Fyddlestix correctly articulates the problem with all the "NPOV and NOTNEWS and FRINGE" stuff. We have policy shortcuts for good reasons; the problem isn't in using them, it's in repetitively ignoring arguments against the editor's personal [mis]interpretations of the policies and guidelines in question. That said, I agree that the editor is productive in other areas. As noted above, I don't think the problems is this topic area are particularly to do with this editor, though. Un-disclaimer: I'm a political centrist, so I'm not taking an ideological side in this mess.. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
My full statement to the Arbs is located here.
Atsme is one of a very (very) small number of Wikipedians I would like to consider my friend, but I strongly urge the arbs to take this case. I have written my entire response
here, so as not to post a giant wall of text on this page. I strongly encourage the arbs to read it in it's entirety before deciding whether or not to take this case.
Atsme, I hope you don't take my support here as a betrayal, because it's not. You are not the only editor I think should get the hell out of AmPol, and I don't think you're entirely to blame for why you should get out. So I encourage you to take my advice: let the Arbs take this case to try and fix the cesspool that is AmPol, but in the meantime, do as I did and just unwatch every directly political page on your watchlist. At the very least, doing so would essentially remove any reason to sanction you, regardless of what ArbCom thinks of the evidence above. If you don't think you can do that, or you can't accept that you should, then I'm afraid I would need to strongly support any proposed topic ban for you. Please don't make it come to that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:22, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Procedural questions aside, I'd just like to encourage admins/arbs to not be too quick to dismiss this and to take the time to look at the pattern of behavior and how much disruption it's caused over time. Atsme really does have difficulty accepting RS as RS when it comes to the AP area, and a tendency to repeatedly spam WP:POLICYSHORTCUTS as if they were an automatic "i win" button in AP debates, while ignoring other editors' earnest explanations of why the policy might not apply/why it might not be that simple (ie, IDHT). This is a pattern of behavior that has remained unchanged for a long period of time, despite repeated pleas/warnings from others - this RFC from over a year ago, for example, shows much the same type of disruptive behavior displayed in MrX's more recent diffs. Fyddlestix ( talk) 22:56, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I suggest you turn this into an actual case request, as this is not new behaviour on Atsme's part, and it has never been limited to American Politics, as Atsme either has a competence issue (they dont just have a problem with NPOV and sources, they have had ongoing issues with the BLP as well), or a deliberate misunderstanding of policies and guidelines when other editors disagree with them. When you have problems going on for over 3 years, its not going to be suited to an AE request - as they usually result in a short block/ban from a topic. And while AN can (and does) handle ongoing editor behavioural issues, its probably not suited in this case. Only in death does duty end ( talk) 00:57, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
This should be a case request and not at ARCA. I assume the clerks will move this if there is interest in a case. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Regarding a case: I don't see a strong need for an "American Politics 3" ARBCOM case at this time. Content disputes are often very heated in the area, and the project would benefit from several editors observing a page-ban from Donald Trump and its talk page. But that can be handled under existing discretionary sanctions. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Regarding clarification: I feel there should be a generally-understood scope for a topic-ban on "Donald Trump, broadly construed"; when these have been issued (as opposed to a page-ban or a full AP2 topic ban) they have turned into excessive wiki-lawyering. I have not been able to come up with any specific proposal that is an improvement, and the committee may want to simply discourage the use of a "Trump TBAN", and that admins should use a full AP2 topic-ban when that is necessary. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't see anything preventing me from acting on MrX's diffs per the AP2 discretionary sanctions, no matter where the diffs have been filed, so long as I've seen them. I have therefore topic banned Atsme indefinitely from post-1932 American politics. The ban is a regular discretionary sanctions ban per single admin discretion, and can be appealed at AN, AE or ARCA in the usual way. It can be appealed right away, certainly, but after that, no more frequently than every six months. I thought at first a topic ban from Donald Trump and related pages might do it, but Beyond My Ken's argument here against Donald Trump bans convinced me against that. I institute this ban per all MrX's categories: wikilawyering, long-time persistent resistance to good advice, repeating arguments ad nauseum, filibustering and dominating discussions without bringing them forward, and, most of all, for repeatedly discrediting reliable sources. Drmies has explained very well the harm the last point does. Not all MrX's diffs are impressive, but together they paint a pretty appalling picture of an editing pattern that drains the time and energy of other users and is a persistent negative on talkpages. I should say that Am Pol is no rosegarden even if we disregard Atsme's input, and probably won't be one even if my ban is upheld. Several people have recommended an AP3 case to deal with the chaos on Trump-related pages. Personally, though, I feel that AP2 does give admins the ability to act decisively. Anyway, whether or not such an arbitration case is brought, or indeed an individual case to deal with Atsme's Am Pol editing, I don't see why I shouldn't try to take care of this gas leak. As Fyddlestix says, it's a start and a step worth taking. [12] Atsme is an OTRS volunteer; I believe this topic ban precludes her from having anything to do with e-mails that concern American politics, but that's a little too arcane for me; perhaps, as long as we are on the ARCA page, the arbitrators would like to clarify that matter?
I too want to express my regret. Atsme is a fine contributor in other areas, and I'm a great admirer of the photographic art she contributes to the project. Like several previous years, I've voted for one of her amazing pictures in the ongoing Commons Picture of the Year contest. Bishonen | talk 09:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC).
Well, if an arbcom case were opened, not sure where to begin. The problem with any politics, especially the most recent ones, is all we really have are news clips, written almost always in an audience satisfying manner, as sources. Of course these sources, if we are talking about major news networks, are deemed reliable. But they are, a great number of them, also geared to grab attention, not peer reviewed and lack the journalistic integrity of scientific papers. This sourcing for recent politics is going to suffer the inevitable bias of writers who are seeing things through the lens of immediacy, and not through the lens of hind sight. The inevitable outcome is articles about recent events and people that are far below quality levels of the website's best articles. Arguing, even forcefully, about whether a news feed is neutral is, a worthy effort. Comparing subpar articles to FA level articles is a worthy effort. Fighting to make sure articles, especially BLPs, are neutrally covered, is a worthy effort. I write fighting in a figurative way...in that protecting BLPs is paramount and I have long felt very disturbed when editors clearly state, not only in words but also in actions, how much they have a distaste for a subject, then turn around and blatantly fight to add all the negativism they can and work to eliminate all the positives they can, and use noticeboards to try and eliminate their editing adversaries and the same noticeboards to defend their editing allies. But far more chilling and despicable than that, is when those in positions of higher trust and power, also insult, ridicule and bully those they disagree with politically both on the article talkpages and the user talks and noticeboards as well. Indeed, were an arbcom case filed, not sure where to even begin as the problems are so pervasive here and some actions so obvious, that any neutral party recently arrived at this website and seeing how this all unfolds would surely declare that all this is insanity and fully noncompliant with any semblance of neutrality or fairness. MONGO ( talk) 12:43, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Although initial reaction from Rob, et al. was understandable, it's time to realize this has moved on, well passed that.
Atsme has accused a person, and relevant here, an admin of stalking [13] and abusing admin status (an admin action, ban, predicated on the diffs in this very filing by Mr. X). Per WP:NOTBUREAU, treat this as an appeal of a ban to be heard here, or the ctte should motion it into a case. DO NOT send this anywhere else for more (disruptive) process. You are the only ctte set-up that deals with precisely this stuff. -- Alanscottwalker ( talk) 13:57, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by SMcCandlish at 09:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
WP:ARBATC's application of discretionary sanctions (DS) to WP:Article titles, WP:Manual of Style, and related pages (MoS subpages, and AT's split-off naming conventions [NC] guidelines) has never been helpful, and is certainly no longer needed.
February 2017 re-scoping motion: It not only invalidated many of the previous ARBATC DS sanctions as having been out-of-scope, it made these DS so constrained – to only the AT/MOS pages and their talk pages – that they're effectively inapplicable. Almost all "style"-related disruptive activity takes place on article talk pages, mostly in WP:Requested moves threads (and most of the rest is at wikiproject talk pages). ArbCom was made aware of this, yet chose to drastically limit the DS scope anyway.
The committee themselves clearly recognize that the DS hammer should not be brought to bear on policy- and guideline-interpretation discussions broadly, and that normal community and administrative remedies are sufficient for disruptive activity in them. This was a wise decision, as an earlier ArbCom effectively telling the community that if anyone momentarily loses their temper in a WP:P&G-related thread it may result in unusual punishment is ultimately a separation of powers problem, an interference in WP's self-governance. WP policy material evolves over time in response to such discussions; it is not an immutable law no one is permitted to question. This was actually a central point in the ARBATC case itself (see initial comments by Tony1, for example).
"Enforcement log": It's just a short list of early recipients of {{
Ds/alert|at}}
, and there have been many more since. These notices/warnings officially expire after a year anyway. Twice already ArbCom has instructed that any items in that list that need to be retained should be merged into the newer DS logging system and this old "scarlet letter" material removed, yet it still hasn't been done years later.
Effect on sanctions: If the ARBATC DS are ended, this mustn't affect sanctions issued while DS were in effect. Let's not create another wikilawyering angle to exploit! If DS were the prescribed means in 2016 for dealing with AT/MoS disruption then they were that means, and the community should not have to re-re-re-litigate to restrain a disruptor from returning to the same activity on a technicality.
Standing: I was named as a party, despite no connection to the actual ARBATC dispute ("MoS editors" guilt by association). Since then, I've seen and personally felt WP:ARBATC#Discretionary sanctions doing nothing but causing trouble for Wikipedia and its editorial community – from punitive, disproportionate, and one-sided sanctions, to years of drama-mongering, to a disengagement of the community from its own policy and guideline pages; all while the DS have failed to actually help the community expediently resolve any actual At/MoS-related disruption.
The ARBATC DS are probably the single most obvious failure of DS to be a useful solution. Not every problem's a nail, so a hammer isn't the only tool we should use.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 09:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
The chilling effect isn't a chill on disruption. The ARBATC DS are virtually never applied to anyone who shows up to AT or MoS and starts being disruptive; regulars at those pages are more likely to be subjected to boomerang sanctions for daring to complain about the disrupters. This is one reason we virtually never bring RFARB, ARCA, or AE actions against anyone (another is that the regulars at the pages aren't battlegrounders, but shepherds; we're averse to drama, and we seek stability and smooth sailing, even if we don't all agree on things.) The chilling effect is on general participation. People used to engage much more often, and more broadly from throughout the editorial pool, at these pages, but DS immediately cast a pall and it's never dissipated. I go out of my way to draw broader attention (e.g. at WP:VPPOL) to MOS/AT/NC/DAB-related RfCs, but overall the participation in them is markedly lower today than in 2012 when the DS were implemented, even if you account for the smaller overall editorial pool.
The minor bits of disruption we've seen and where DS were applied (at least in the abstract, i.e. warnings) were all blips that could have be dealt with at ANI or ANEW or with a DS-unrelated civility warning. Meanwhile, the two actually severe bouts of disruption (which I mentioned already) happened after the DS. The DS were not used to prevent the problems; the community resolved the first on its own; and the second dragged on until the situation became so intolerable that someone did finally try using AE, long after much of the damage was done, and then it just turned into three years of additional drama. The only thing like this that happened before the DS was the date auto-linking and auto-formatting squabbles, which were not the ARBATC issue, but handled in an earlier RFARB,
WP:ARBDATE – and handled without DS.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 16:08, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
The perhaps predictable devolution of this ARCA into "find some way to point the finger at the ARCA request even after AN concluded in the other direction, and even though this ARCA is about DS and the topic area not this editor in particular" actually serves to highlight what's wrong with DS in this area in the first place. It's disappointing to encounter what looks like an implication that I must have some kind of nefarious motive in questioning DS's application to AT/MOS. This isn't about me (I haven't had a personal issue with ARBATC DS in years). What happed to AGF, and ARBATC's own instructions to not personalize style disputes? :-/ — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
This ARCA is obviously going nowhere, so I'll just drop it and wait for another ArbCom. The passage of time, the collection of further evidence of mis-application and of failure of DS to work in this area, and simple cycling out of some committee members seems likely to be necessary to get the nebulously menaching fog lifted off these policypages. DS never should have been applied to this in the first place, given that the rationale for it was just a petty four-editor squabble that would have resolved itself soon enough anyway. ARBATC#Discretionary_sanctions was an over-reaction. By current standards, DS would not have been applied in that case. The reluctance of ArbCom today to impose DS doesn't square with its simultaneous reluctance to un-impose old DS where DS would not have been imposed today. And the fact that ARBATC DS have been invoked for warnings twice in half a year is trivial, in no way suggestive that DS works in this area. This is basically
magical thinking. "It rained last night, after I prayed to the rain gods, ergo prayer works." I've offered far more plausible explanations above why AT/MoS see less dispute today than they did in 2011.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 10:11, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
I find this an odd request, given that within the last month Darkfrog24 had an appeal of their topic ban placed under these discretionary sanctions declined, a one-way I bad against Smccandlish (the nominator here) added to that topic ban, and a short block for breaching the topic ban during the appeal imposed. They were indeffed by NeilN later the same day for breaching their topic ban on their talk page. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive235#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Darkfrog24 and user talk:Darkfrog24. Given this very recent history (7 June) of ATC discretionary sanctions being actively used, I would be inclined to say that they are currently still needed. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:19, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
I believe that the discretionary sanctions are particularly important on MOS pages, which by the subjective nature of the content are more prone to personal arguments than many other pages. I wanted to post a few links in particular, which may or may not be informative about the continuing benefit of DS. From a MOS-related RFC in December: [17], from earlier this week [18] [19] ("childish"), and from today [20]. This is the tone with discretionary sanctions in effect.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Notifications and warnings issued prior to the introduction of the current procedure on 3 May 2014 are not sanctions and remain on the individual case page logs."). It's true that some portion of the work from implementing the DS procedure changes remains on the clerks' to-do list, but this is not one of them. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 15:50, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Crouch, Swale at 19:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
Can I have my editing restriction of page creation and discussion of NC and moves please. I have waited 6 months and edited as instructed. I have not had any problems with my moves on Commons and know that I need to follow consensus and propose potentially controversial moves. With creations I have to some extent reached an agreement with Nilfanion. I will mainly be creating pages for missing civil parishes and I will likely discuss with Nilfanion if I intend to create a large number of other topics. Note that I might not be around much next week but I hope that doesn't cause too many problems with this. I have never been blocked on Commons or had editing restrictions there, however if there is concern about my contributions which shouldn't happen, I will voluntary agree to restrictions, for example I have to discuss all moves I make.
Can I ask what this is about? Beyond My Ken ( talk) 03:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure I'm a party to this, but clearly I'm interested. I'd urge ArbCom to read this discussion on my talk page. I'm surprised that he immediately came here at the 6 month (though I shouldn't be). My intentions were (and still are) to try and support him over the coming weeks/months to prove he can write good articles, and demonstrate he now has the key skills he lacked in the past and would likely produce new articles in a non-disruptive manner. If he had done so, at that point I'd have been inclined to approach ArbCom on his behalf to urge the restrictions were withdrawn.
The behaviour that triggered his initial block was generated by the mass creation of stubs on minor geographic places (leading to work at AFD, effort in merging into sensible parent articles, pointless templates being created etc). When he didn't stop that quickly death spiralled into socking. His comments, both during the discussion on my talk page and in his statement here, trouble me:
All of these points suggest to me the potential for future disruption identical to what triggered the initial block.
Recent activity on Commons at CFD (the closest analog to WP:RM) may be of interest to ArbCom, as it shows other aspects of his behaviour: This show him closing a very high impact case, with minimal involvement from others. He did not initially care about fixing the consequences. He frets about "correctness" a lot, especially with following the one true source, and makes a lot of moves as a result. If he was allowed, he is bound to do the same on Wikipedia. His understanding definitely varies from Wikipedia norms. Some examples of moves: [21] is at variance with an old WP discussion. [22] quotes WP:UKPLACE incorrectly (it applies to settlements, not natural features). [23] to remove hyphens (not used by his preferred source, but used by other sources).
Based on the evidence above, at this time I oppose removal of the restrictions on article creation and removal of the restrictions on page moving. The other restrictions (no involvement in RM, or in discussions about naming conventions) could be removed - that would give Crouch, Swale to the ability to demonstrate on Wikipedia that the page move restrictions could be safely relaxed in future.
@ BU Rob13: Crouch, Swale hasn't contributed to any requested moves since he was unblocked, because his current restrictions prevent him from doing so. See my comment above about Commons, for similar activity on that project.-- Nilf anion ( talk) 18:52, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Concur with Nilfanion. The very recent thread at [24] indicates insufficient cluefullness (still, somehow). Given the previous track-record of grossly disruptive socking and endless creation of pointless one-liners, a desire to keep creating micro-stubs after all this is a big red-flag. I agree with Nilfanion's WP:ROPE idea of easing some other restrictions, but there should be no hesitation in re-imposing the RM/move ban should more trouble arise in that area. We already have too high of a noise:signal and heat:light ratio in that sector. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:32, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Also concur with BU Rob13 here; it's not really possible to do much at RM without referring to the naming conventions and their applicability/non-applicability to the case at hand. If you can't do those things, you'd be reduced to WP:JUSTAVOTE in many cases, and that is discouraged. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:59, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The topic ban from discussions on geographic naming conventions imposed on Crouch, Swale ( talk · contribs) as part of their unblock conditions in January 2018 is suspended for a period of six months. During the period of suspension, this restriction may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator, as an arbitration enforcement action, should Crouch, Swale fail to adhere to any normal editorial process or expectations in the topic area. Appeal of such a reinstatement would follow the normal arbitration enforcement appeals process. After six months from the date this motion is enacted, if the restriction has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the restriction will automatically lapse. Crouch, Swale's remaining restrictions continue in force.
Enacted -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 05:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Guy Macon at 02:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
(Please let me know if I should post a notice on the talk pages of the participants at the noticeboard) -- Guy Macon ( talk) 02:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Per the discussions at Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Clarifying policy and Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Why not just ask Arbcom?, I would like to request clarification/guidance concerning Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Return of access levels? and Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Restoration of permissions
In particular, some participants in the above-referenced discussions have focused upon...
...from restoration of permissions, arguing that if at the time of the resignation there did not exist an active case at Arbcom or WP:AN that had a reasonable chance of leading to sanctions or desysopping, restoration should be automatic.
On the other hand some participants in the above-referenced discussions have focused upon...
...from return of access levels, arguing that if there have been significant complaints that may have, if not for the discussion being shut down by the resignation, led to an active case at Arbcom or WP:AN that may have lead to sanctions or desysopping, an new RfA should be required.
The Bureaucrats were split 4 to 6 on this with one 'crat saying...
"So I'd err on resysopping someone who may or may not be or been have desysopping by arbcom and let arbcom deal with desysopping if they so choose."
...while another wrote...
"Obviously the community does not allow us to stand in for ArbCom and stand in judgment over resigned administrators. But I don't think that means our job is just to return the tools absent evidence of the worst kind of misconduct. The community has authorized us only to return the tools in uncontroversial circumstances. So I'd err the other way. If not relatively uncontroversial, I think RfA is the way to go."
Pretty much everyone, editors and 'crats, agreed with the opinion, expressed at Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Clarifying policy, that "My honest and unprejudiced reading of the evidence presented is that it clearly does not cross a bright line. Yet I find many honest and unprejudiced Wikipedians who I respect disagree with me. I take from this that our policy isn't clear enough."
This may result in an RfC, but even if it does, I think that some clarification from Arbcom concerning the return of access levels section of the Scientology case would help to avoid the participants in the RfC simply repeating the same confusion regarding policy.
I will post a link to this on the Bureaucrats' noticeboard. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 02:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Although it may be more proper to suggest wording at an RfC rather than through an ARCA. I think the Arbs may be able to further clarify their interpretation by expanding on, in a more general manner, the example provided in the case. That may be reaching beyond the scope because I do not believe there was a need to make a more general interpretation to rule on the circumstances of the case. Jbh Talk 03:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC)An administrator who resigned at a time when there was either an ongoing formal process which was avoided, circumvented, or minimized as a result of their resignation ie actively avoiding scrutiny or in circumstances where such a process was reasonably likely to follow if the admin did not resign ie controversial circumstances may only regain the bit via a new RfA.
A concern some of us raised over at BN is that any active (or at least "enforcing") admin always has various people upset at them and convinced they're a "badmin". Judging whether someone resigned "under a cloud" needs to be tied to whether formal process against the admin (for admin actions, or actions that could have called into question admin suitability), was under way when they resigned. It's not sufficient that the admin was criticized or had "enemies". In the case that triggered this debate, the returning ex-admin had not been subject to formal scrutiny when resigning, but did have some other editors angry at them. Taking a long wikibreak in the face of drama, short of noticeboard or ArbCom scrutiny of one's admin or adminship-affecting activities, shouldn't force a re-RfA. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:20, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
WP:Bureaucrats (including
WP:RESYSOP) is not policy (or even "guideline") and never has been; the reason it has the cumbersome
Wikipedia:Bureaucrats/Header at the top rather than the usual {{
policy}} or {{
guideline}} reflects the fact that no attempt to elevate it to anything more than an informal set of notes has ever been successful. As far as I'm aware, the resysop procedures never have been formally codified, other than in a few old arb cases like Scientology. The closest thing we have to a formal policy is the relevant part of the closure of
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Bureaucrat removal of adminship policy, which is the rather unhelpful Administrators that did not resign in controversial circumstances and whose identity is not in question will be reinstated as per resysopping policy
, which still punts it back to the 'crats to determine what constitutes "controversial circumstances". (There might be some RFCs regarding the limits of 'crat discretion from the time of
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Elonka and
associated recall petition or from
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Danny 2 but I'm no great desire to reopen those cans of worms, and in any case that was an eternity ago in Wikipedia years and the much more recent
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Bureaucrat removal of adminship policy would have superseded any decisions reached.) ‑
Iridescent 10:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I first want to echo everything Iridescent said above me. The Resysopping section was
added in early 2010 (
BN discussion) and has since been expanded to incorporate the
inactive admin policy (
BN discussion) and note the
principle in question. While the procedures have existed in a largely similar form for years — I imagine NYB's history and institutional knowledge will be quite helpful! — to my knowledge Iri is correct that in large part they haven't been officially codified. I suppose it might be helpful for the Committee to clarify how broadly they think Scientology's circumstances of controversy
should be interpreted by Bureaucrats (perhaps by noting they need not be "formal," whatever that means), but I think that's somewhat missing the point. It's not for the Committee to make policy, so if the community wishes to codify, clarify, or change policy as to how Bureaucrats interpret the proverbial cloud, we can (and should, as it seems Bureaucrats themselves would appreciate it).
To wit, I largely agree with Callanecc and Alex Shih that there isn't much for ArbCom to do here. To
repeat and
paraphrase my comments at BN, the process is working, even if some folks disagree with the latest outcome. That there is disagreement on a particular situation from different Bureaucrats is not prima facie evidence that the process is broken, just that Bureaucrats sometimes have hard jobs. The part that I see that could merit clarification from ArbCom is in the next line of that Principle: Determining whether an administrator resigned under controversial circumstances is, in most cases, in the discretion of the bureaucrats
(emphasis added). I take that vagueness to refer to cases involving special authority — ArbCom, Jimbo, WMF, etc. — but if there is confusion as to what the Committee feels doesn't fall under 'crat purview, that could be worth clarifying. ~ Amory (
u •
t •
c) 18:18, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
were there controversial circumstances?and refrained from voting. The one bureaucrat in favour of support ( Deskana) had their concerns addressed after additional comments by Xaosflux, Useight and SoWhy. In their response to Deskana, the bureaucrat voted oppose (Useight) expressed that they are "okay" with resysop. This leaves us with WJBscribe and Acalamari to be the two remaining votes strongly in oppose of resysop. But despite of voting strong oppose, WJBscribe did not contest Dweller's close even though they commented in their talk page afterwards. Therefore I disagree with the assessment that Dweller acted against policy and/or participated in bureaucrat supervote. Alex Shih ( talk) 08:13, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Return of access levels. Users who give up their sysop (or other) powers and later return and request them back may have them back automatically, provided they did not leave under controversial circumstances. Users who do leave under controversial circumstances must go through the normal channels to get them back. Determining whether a user left under controversial circumstances is, in most cases, to be left up to bureaucrats' discretion.
An administrator who requests desysopping while an arbitration case or a request for arbitration is pending against him or her will be deemed to have left under circumstances of controversy, unless the Arbitration Committee deems otherwise, for purposes of applying this principle, whether or not the arbitration case is accepted.