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Initiated by Zero0000 at 01:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
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I'm writing concerning the General Prohibition "All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict."
Unfortunately many articles are seeing a lot of edits from IPs and others failing to meet this requirement (many of which are probably unaware of it) followed by reverts by others. Semi-protection would help a lot. My question is: since semi-protection will have no effect on editors who are entitled to edit at all, can semi-protection be applied by involved administrators?
Of course automated enforcement of the prohibition would be the best solution.
I don't think the committee should make any blanket endorsement of involved administrator action. I can envision disputes over which articles fall under the general prohibition, and things can turn ugly if there is an WP:INVOLVED case. Obviously, the reasonability rule still applies—if an involved admin protects a page that any reasonable administrator would also protect, then there shouldn't be any issues (see third paragraph of WP:INVOLVED). But this is a very case-by-case thing, and if there is even a slight possibility of contentiousness (and in this topic area, this might always be the case...), always WP:RFPP. Mz7 ( talk) 06:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Would it be possible to create some form of hidden maintenance category that includes all the pages under the restriction, and craft a bot or an edit filter that disallows or automatically reverts and warns users fall under the restrictions? If ARCA is not the right venue for discussing this, we should probably have a community discussion. Mz7 ( talk) 19:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Mdann52: According to WP:CASCADE, cascading semi-protection is currently not available to administrators, as it would effectively allow non-administrators to semi-protect pages. Even if it were possible, by my understanding of cascade, you would have to transclude every page you want to semi-protect onto one page, which would be rather cumbersome. Mz7 ( talk) 20:57, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
It was fairly clear that there would be trouble making this fly. The difference between a 500/30 protection on one article, and the same on a whole topic is one of kind not quantity.
While it is technically feasible to find a solution, it is pretty undesirable to effectively topic-ban 7 billion people - especially given the breadth with which these topic bans are interpreted. It is equivalent to banning all under 60s from parkland, becasue some youth drop litter. (More topical analogies might also spring to mind.)
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 12:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC).
I meant to open an WP:ARCA request for this, but was too lazy and forgot.
I suggest the following, which is explicitly allowed by the remedy. This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters.
Let the emphasis of the enforcement be on reverts rather than semi-protection, edit filters or blocks. Use semi-protection sparingly and temporarily, in direct response to disruption.
Zero0000's proposal about involved admins applying semi-protection (ideally temporarily) seems good to me. The emphasis on blocks makes the most sense, is most consistent and least harmful. It is trivial to undo any bad edits by IPs, inexperienced editors etc. In my experience, just mentioning the magic word
WP:ARBPIA3 is enough to "win" any content dispute (the recent flap involving Huldra is an exception rather than the rule; she didn't say the magic word).
Kingsindian
♝
♚ 07:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
If we are going to do this, it may make sense to create a page (eg WP:Palestine-Israel articles 3), place that under cascading semi-protection, then allow editors to add articles to it in this topic area as needed. I'd note we do also have Special:AbuseFilter/698, although this will not work effectively on larger scale applications - there just aren't the resources available for it to run! Mdann52 ( talk) 22:01, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Without comment on the substantive issue, could an edit filter not check for a specific category or a template on the talk page? Or perhaps the existence of a specific editnotice, since those can only be created by administrators and a handful of others? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:01, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, this is basically a repeat of what I've written
below... we already have a
filter that disallows unqualified users to edit a explicit set of articles, which an edit filter manager can add to easily. However there has been long discussion (
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]) of a template/filter-based solution. You would add {{pp-30-500}}
to any page and an edit filter would apply the 30/500 editing restriction to that page. An additional filter ensures only admins can add/remove it. See {{
User:MusikAnimal/pp-30-500}}. Users would be able to request an article be put under 30/500 at
WP:RFPP. So in effect we have a new form of protection until we can get WMF to create what we need. The filters need to make this work are ready to implemented, but I haven't done so yet as I also felt broader input was needed —
MusikAnimal
talk 01:49, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
@
Mdann52: I am confident the two filters needed to make a template-based solution won't have a noticeable effect on performance. We have numerous other filters that are less restrictive and with much more complex regular expressions. With
Special:AbuseFilter/698 we are already halfway there. This sounds expensive, but performance is greatly improved by restricting the filter to the article/talk space, to users with < 500 edits, and then checking for the presence of the pp-30-500
template. We could do one better and require admins add it to the very top of the article, so the regex won't need to scan the whole page —
MusikAnimal
talk 02:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by When Other Legends Are Forgotten at 04:29, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
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Does an article need to be tagged with the {{ARBPIA}} template on its associated Talk page for it to be considered subject to the case restrictions (30/500)? I am referring to articles which clearly relate to the conflict (e.g, they contain text such as "Palestinians exiled in 1948 are denied their right of return.", and as such , it would be hard to argue that they could not "be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict".
A further clarification is required with regards to IPs ability to edit talk pages of articles subject to the 30/500 restriction, as it seems that some administrators are of the opinion that they are allowed to edit such pages (see [7])
@ MusikAnimal: - I am not opposed to enforcing the restriction via a template, in fact, I would welcome such a measure. But that really does not address the issue I am asking clarification for, nor does your suggestion that only admins be allowed to add the template seem sensible to me - there is no such requirement to add the {{ARBPIA}] template to such articles today - any editor can do so, at their discretion. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands of articles subject to the restriction, and many of them are not tagged. Are we to wait until an admin sees fit to add the template to articles such as Jibril Agreement before IPs can be reasonably prevented (via reverts ) from editing them in contravention of the restriction?
{{pp-30-500}}
template on the subject page. I don't want to get too carried away with technical matters, and further backlog my list of to-dos, but the template approach to enforcing the 500/30 restriction is at the top of that list -- and I really think it is the best solution, which means we will require admin intervention to qualify an article for 30/500 but in a way that's more formal and conducive to a stable editing environment —
MusikAnimal
talk 06:57, 31 December 2015 (UTC){{pp-30-500}}
which automatically enforces the editing restriction, the addition of it will absolutely have to be left to admins (they
can be involved, assuming there's no question it applies to that article). This is a powerful editing restriction, much moreso than semi, pending-changes, or even PC2. We can not let just anyone add it, we need admins to verify it is truly needed on that article or else it's usage is subject to abuse. Again, getting admin attention is as simple as making an RFPP request. These are processed quickly.Now, if an article is clearly subject to the arbitration remedy, anyone can of course enforce the 30/500 restriction manually, but they should at least add {{
ARBPIA}} to the talk page so people are aware this is a thing, and also request 30-500 protection assuming they are aware it exists. There might also be articles where only a portion of it is subject to 30/500 restriction. In such a case we obviously wouldn't protect it with {{pp-30-500}}
, and enforement would have to be left to page watchers.Again mind you there is an edit filter already doing this job, just doesn't go off of a template admins can add, which is the better solution as it won't require edit filter managers to update which articles are protected. This edit filter was put in place as a result of
this ArbCom case, and it's usage was challenged and upheld
here and
here. The filter-enforced disallowing of edits is favourable over letting editors do the job manually, as it presents a friendly edit notice telling the user why they can't edit, as opposed to bitey page watchers reverting with the summary "you can't edit here". All in all, if we are to keep the 30/500 editing restriction, I see no reason why we shouldn't do in a way consistent with other page protections, especially given this one is the more powerful of protections.{{pp-30-500}}
to enforce the 30/500 editing restriction.I also agree with Xaosflux that edit notices (and the {{
ARBPIA}} on the talk page) should be required. The issue is unqualified editors still see the Edit button, and may spend some time making sizable contributions before edit filters disallows the edit, or someone reverts them. It's only fair for them to be given prior notice —
MusikAnimal
talk 21:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)I do not think that a tag should be required. Experience with the ARBPIA sanctions over several years shows that the few disputes over which articles are included are fairly easy for the admins at AE to decide. And once they have decided, the status of that article is settled from then on.
In case a tag is decided, it would be a very bad idea to require an uninvolved admin to add it. The outcome of such a rule in practice would that the sanctions would only ever be active in a small fraction of the articles in which they are required. I propose the opposite: any editor satisfying the 30/500 condition can add a tag; any uninvolved administrator can rule that the tag is not appropriate for that article. (But I still think that no tags at all would be better.) Zero talk 07:19, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Regarding talk pages, previous restrictions in the ARBPIA series were not applied to talk pages and I think it would be bad policy to start now. Talk pages should be open to all editors in good standing. Editors who cannot edit an article themselves should still be able to go onto the talk page and make suggestions for article improvement. If necessary, the wording of ARBPIA3 should be adjusted to make this clearer. Zero talk 23:59, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Guerillero:, yes, the literal reading of "any page" includes talk pages, project pages, even user pages (eg my talk page is clearly related to the i-p conflict; are IPs now forbidden from writing there?). However I looked in vain for any discussion or even mention of this issue on the ARBPIA3 pages and seriously wonder if the arbitrators who voted for the proposal noticed that it said "page" rather than "article". If an IP notices a typo, where can be it legally reported? Zero talk 07:32, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
While it's clear that ARBCOM explicitly allow for the GP to be enforced in any way that is currently possible including manual reverts, When Other Legends Are Forgotten seems to be under the impression that the restrictions can be enforced by sockpuppets of topic banned/blocked users, such as himself, very probably a sock of NoCal100, during the often extended periods Wikipedia's slow and deeply flawed system of protection against sockpuppetry allows the sock to remain active. Perhaps ARBCOM could make it clear that sockpuppets of blocked users are never allowed to enforce the restrictions (or indeed do anything at all in ARBPIA) and When Other Legends Are Forgotten could accept and abide by that clear rule so that we don't have the absurd and counterproductive situation of a person who is not allowed to edit in ARBPIA (or anywhere) telling people that they are not allowed to edit in ARBPIA. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:27, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Personally I abhor that a new "class" of editor has been created by decree of ArbCom. That being said, as it has been decided to ban all new editors from editing certain articles - I think it needs to be abundantly clear to the editors that they are under such a topic ban and why. I think at a minimum edit notices should be required on any page that is considered in scope of this ban. While the decision only says that this ban "may" be enforced, I would never enforce it for any good faith edit - however the sanction appears to support allowing anyone else to enforce it even for good faith editing. — xaosflux Talk 16:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sir Joseph at 14:32, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
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I put in an AE against someone but........... but I did have a question for clarification. The most recent decision of the ARBPIA specified that any editor may revert an IP editor or < 500 poster without regard for the content of the post.
1)If the IP is adding correct information, and another editor leaves it in, does it then still get to be reverted, and if it does, does it get to be reverted hours later? For example, an IP editor adds some content, I, or someone else looks at it and realizes it to be a good edit so it's left in. Is it still considered revertable or is it now part of the article? Does it make sense that it can be reverted 5 hours later, even if the article was edited by another editor in the meanwhile?
2)If the IP is adding/removing information and the non-IP is just reverting without looking since IP-IP-IP says we can, what can a non-IP editor do to not run into 1RR rules when he wants to keep that information in?
I understand that someone might not want to get involved, but there are issues when you revert blindly without looking at the content. I've seen it several times already and most recently yesterday/today which is what made me post this clarification request. There certainly has to be a time limit on the IP reversion, or at the very least once another editor has edited the page after the IP editor, then that IP editor's edits should not be considered revertible.
This is a very simple matter. WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 is (though not called) a topic ban. WP:BANREVERT already covers it. If it's not broke don't fix it. It's not broke. -Serialjoepsycho- ( talk) 16:16, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
If the Committee is taking the position, which appears that it may be, that BANREVERT is not applicable in this situation the Committee would be well-advised to be careful not to create or inadvertently or intentionally imply any obligation to restore the reverted material which could cause either the reverting editor, regular maintainers, or other editors to be subject to criticism or sanctions if they fail to do it. That's just another opening for the kind of drama which this restriction and exception to BANREVERT is intended to avoid. (If words such as "should be restored" are used, it should be made clear that "should" in that case means, "it would be a good thing for the encyclopedia if they were restored, but no one is required to do so.") Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
(The extra work involved here is one of the reasons why I think we need to use an edit filter approach that disallows the original edits in the first place, rather than forcing other editors to revert them by hand.) Kirill Lokshin ( talk) 18:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Jytdog at 00:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
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My user page has had stuff on it about GMOs for a long time. Two sections: User:Jytdog#GMO_stuff and User:Jytdog#Self-initiated_COI_Investigation.
Should I remove one or both of those sections about GMOs from my user page?
I am concerned on the one hand that removing either would be violating the ban since I am editing content about GMOs in Wikipedia; on the other hand I am concerned someone will say that the stuff even being there is a violation and that would be drama.
My judgement would be to remove the first and keep the second, but whatever you say I will do.
Sorry for the bother and also if this inappropriate - I just don't know what to do. Thanks.
(bolding added)When Jytdog says that I edited the article per his wishes he is not being very honest. He was told again and again that the use of the term fair trade was not appropriate and that the problem was in no way connected to including the names of the trade agreements but to the use of the term fair trade. And yet he just ignored any comments related to the use of the term free trade even to including it in the final suggestion he made before threatening to bring it to a dispute resolution process. Jytdog is not dumb. He knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade.
He has opposed all United States free trade agreements since NAFTA, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and the US trade policy under which these agreements were negotiated and signed; he holds that these agreements have benefited large corporations at the expense of American workers and he proposes renegotiating the agreements to better protect American workers.
- this was a gobsmacker. Again you don't seem to know what you are talking about nor have read any of the relevant sources. See this editorial by him headlined: "So-called 'free trade' policies hurt US workers every time we pass them". It is clear as day that Sanders opposes what everyone calls free trade. If your point is that he only uses the term with quotes ("free trade") - well that is is just rhetoric like calling the estate tax a "death tax" and runs dead against WP:COMMONTERM. I have been afraid that this is the source of TFD's opposition to use of the abstract term in the Sanders article - if so, that is really horrific WP editing. But I never went there while I was working on the article, and instead crafted the language above to work around whatever the bizarre opposition was.Sanders has never said that he is opposed to free trade and there is no RS to make that statement.
I do not wish to comment on Jytdog's request but have another question for clarification. Does the topic ban apply to articles about Bernie Sanders?
Sanders is a leading proponent of GMO labelling and opponent of Monsanto [8] which, as a GMO producer, is one of the articles mentioned in the GMO case. Sanders is the only politician mentioned in March Against Monsanto, another article mentioned in the case. The new trade agreement which Sanders opposes, TPP, prohibits GMO labelling. [9]
Jytdog has recently begun editing this article, for example here and [10]. In the latter edit he added, "He has opposed free trade agreements...." [11] He does not mention that Sanders says it is not a free trade agreement and provides a link to the free trade article. He has not edited articles for any other presidential candidates.
This seems to me to be an example of continuing to edit a subject as closely related to GMO as possible, without overtly crossing the line.
TFD ( talk) 21:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
I notice that the enwiki database shows Jytdog made 93 edits to "March Against Monsanto," [12] so I assume he is aware of its contents.
While it has been deleted, Jytdog posted, "My comments have been purely focused on Sanders' stances on trade and competitiveness generally and not on any single sector of the economy. (fwiw as he is doing so well I became curious about his positions on the economy and when I read our article on him, I found it to say little to nothing about anything other than economic inequality." [13] The discussion thread started by Jytdog at the Sanders article begins, "I have been wondering what Sanders has to do say about promoting the competitiveness of the American economy and i have found nothing anywhere (not in Wiki nor without)." [14] It is an odd posting from an experienced editor. Normally one would do a little research first and made or recommend the addition of material. The first editor to reply saw it as soapboxing. [15]
By "discrediting Sanders" I was referring to my earlier reply to Jytdog, "we should not link to free trade, because it implies they are free trade in the way it is normally understood." In the first source you added (PBS), TPP was not referred to as a free trade agreement. [16] Nor was it in the second (Punditfact). [17] And in the source already in the article, written by Sanders, he says, "This is not "free trade."" [18] And I pointed out in the talk page, "I note btw that Sanders says these are not free trade agreements, so saying he has voted against all free trade agreements is injecting your personal interpretation."
TFD ( talk) 23:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Kelapstick:, I agree with AlbinoFerret about the ban "including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics." Sanders introduced the amendment [19] to allow state requirement of GMO labeling. An article in the pro-GMO Genetic Literacy Project (GLP) says, "an example of a politician who still needs to overcome the knee-jerk reflex to be against food biotechnology is Sen. Bernie Sanders. He is chosen here as an example, because his presidential campaign makes him the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs, and because he takes strong positions in favor of science on all issues apart from agricultural biotechnology." [20] The GLP is financed by the Searle Freedom Trust, [21] that supports a number of U.S. conservative thinktanks and organizations that oppose climate change science, state funded health care, etc. The site also says Bernie Sanders (and Hillary Clinton, although here opposition was more recent) oppose the TPP and then says GMO opponents are mistaken in their view that the treaty would prevent GMO labeling. [22] TFD ( talk) 04:46, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Jytdog:, it is not that Sanders' trade policy discredits him, but saying he opposes free trade when he has not said that does. It is synthesis: Sanders says he opposes the TPP etc., another source says they are free trade agreements, therefore Sanders opposes free trade agreements. And the restriction on editing articles "about persons involved in [GMO]" would seem to include "the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs." The reasoning is that discrediting anti-GMO advocates discredits anti-GMO advocacy.
These agreements are btw related to GMO, since they allow the export of U.S. GMO grains, and may protect them against GMO labelling, which the GMO industry opposes. The U.S. Grains Council for example says that tariffs on U.S. corn exports will be eliminated. 9 [23] 0% of U.S. corn in GMO.
TFD ( talk) 15:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Kelapstick:, while I appreciate that Sanders is most notable as a politician, he is also notable for his opposition to GMO or, as the GLP says, he is the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs. That meets the criterion of being involved in these topics. He is mentioned in March Against Monsanto and Farmer Assurance Provision (aka "Monsanto Protection Act"). A Google news search of "Bernie Sanders"+"GMO" gets 26,000 results. [24] Among the first of the articles, "Bernie Sanders promises to protect organic farming and denounces Monsanto", "Sanders, Murkowski vow to block appointment of FDA commissioner over GMO salmon, drug prices", "Can Bernie Sanders act like a progressive on GMOs, overcome tribal allegiances, embrace science?" "Hillary vs. Bernie on Frankenfood", "Bernie Sanders claims CBS canceled interview on rBGH after Monsanto threatened lawsuit", "Bernie Sanders Calls Out Monsanto for Killing His GMO Labeling Amendment."
--kelapstick, but isnt the Locus of the dispute tied to the broadly construed part of the ban? Section 4.2.1 Locus of the dispute says "The dispute centers on pages about genetically modified organisms (GMOs), agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics...." AlbinoFerret 23:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
As far as the hounding goes, I watch this page, not because of one editor, but because I have contributed to a few arbocm cases. Thats likely the reason others have made comments here as well. What brought me to this page this last time was the Mystery Wolff section below and I noticed the GMO section above it. All this talk of hounding is just casting WP:ASPERSIONS. Like there is some kind of anti-Jytdog secret cabal just waiting for the chance. Something that many editors who have or had a section on this page seems to add at one point or another when multiple editors see a problem. AlbinoFerret 18:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Callanecc, --kelapstick, Kirill Lokshin, and Doug Weller part of the findings of the GMO case is section 4.3.6 Jytdog is admonished for their poor civility in relation to the locus of this case. With this edit Jytdog has chosen to disregard that warning. [25] and has focused on Me and not content or issues WP:FOC The comments of "lame" and "sloppy" and criticizing my post to another editor (S Marshall) are very troubling considering the warning he received. That this also happens in a section on topic with that warning raises the concern. AlbinoFerret 18:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
From what I understood, Jytdog's ban should cover articles on companies like Monsanto, not only GMOs. A glance at the Sanders pages for the word GMO is not sufficient in this case.
Jytdog should not be editing pages of strong advocates for or against Monsanto and GE technology. For this reason, Bernie Sanders' articles should be off limits to Jytdog based on his topic ban.
It is well known that Sanders is a huge thorn * in their side. Consider:
Consider too: Bernie on GMOs and the TPP
Jytdog should not be editing content related to trade agreements that have a massive, direct impact on Monsanto, the biotech industry and the spread of GM foods.
Request for clarity
Please Arbs, clarify for us what you meant by "biographical pages about persons involved in these topics". Could you provide examples of people who would fall into this category?
Could one's prominence in media perhaps play a role in this determination? In other words, Sanders is concerned with many issues (not primarily GMOs), but it cannot be said that his position on Monsanto and GMOs is of no consequence, especially given his power as Senator and potential power as POTUS. I see a line of reasoning forming that to qualify under this topic ban, a bio would need to be solely concerned with the subject's position on GM technology, etc. Is this correct?
Sanders is, according to current polls, a few steps from holding what is commonly described as the most powerful position in the world, and because he is the most prominent and outspoken critic of Monsanto in the United States, as well as an advocate for requiring GM foods labeling, and for small, organic farmers, I can't imagine a bio of someone more fit for Section 4.2.1.
This is what he said in early January:
So, you've got Jytdog visiting the Sanders page to make POINTy edits and arguments about Monsanto's biggest U.S. critic, and about a trade deal that would prevent GMO labeling. This is not, in your collective view, a transgression of his topic ban?
First I agree that Bernie Sanders is at least somewhat related to GMO's because of his unique views compared on GMO's relative to other major candidates, to about the same level as GMO's are related to Agent Orange. Jytdog has show prejudice against anyone he labelled "anti-GMO". On the Bernie Sanders page, he is now into a dispute with Gandydancer an editor who I believe left the GMO pages largely because of Jytdog's behavior, where she says, "this has been a very unpleasant experience" diff. Although Gandydancer said she did not think the T-ban should apply here, IMHO seeing responses like this is a further reason the t-ban should apply to his behavior on this article.
I request that ArbCom to consider this editor's history at ArbCom and on Wikipedia in making its ruling and answering this editor's request, such as his overly aggressive behavior at COI that was brought to ArbCom's attention and lead to admonishment by one of the ArbCom members: here (that comment refers to this Statement by Risker and this mass deletion of mall articles over a supposed COI.) I similarly pointed out double-standards in this editor's behavior with regards to COI here at the GMO Arbitration. And now we have a new COI problem for this editor [27], who thought it appropriate to edit the COI guideline when questions were raised about his COI here. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 06:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC) (revised 13:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC))
Some editors have presented some very interesting information above and now I can see why Monsanto would be very eager to discredit Sanders. BTW, I note below it is said, "There is no mention of GMOs in either his article, or his presidential campaign article." Actually there is a section on GMO labeling in his positions article. Gandydancer ( talk) 15:03, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
When Jytdog says that I edited the article per his wishes he is not being very honest. He was told again and again that the use of the term fair trade was not appropriate and that the problem was in no way connected to including the names of the trade agreements but to the use of the term fair trade. And yet he just ignored any comments related to the use of the term free trade even to including it in the final suggestion he made before threatening to bring it to a dispute resolution process. Jytdog is not dumb. He knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade. Gandydancer ( talk) 16:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
This is getting just plain silly. I said "[Jytdog] knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade." He subtracts what he calls a bizarre claim that I made "Sanders is against fair trade" from this and calls it nonsense that nobody ever said, which is of course true, except that nobody ever said it, including me. Let's complicate some more--he says that I deleted and misrepresented him--though I did neither. This is not complicated, it is very simple: The article is about Sanders life and his political accomplishments and opinions. We are abbreviating Sanders's views on trade agreements to just one or a few sentences. Sanders has never said that he is opposed to free trade and there is no RS to make that statement. If we had more space to work with it could be explained that Sanders does not consider the trade deals in question to be "free" and he always refers to them as "so called free" or similar. So its been best, in order to keep things brief, to just say, "Sanders has opposed NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR, and PPT." Not complicated at all. This was brought up repeatedly on the talk page but Jytdog just went doggedly along not hearing it, refusing to discuss it, and now here calling it nonsense. Gandydancer ( talk) 15:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Jytdog: I really do want to clear up the statement where you said, "So yet more misrepresentation of me. (not to mention her bizarre claim that "Sanders is against fair trade" which nobody including me has ever said - in her haste to denigrate me she misrepresented me, wrote nonsense, and deleted my comments." I will gladly accept responsibility but I don't know what I did unless you will tell me. Gandydancer ( talk) 22:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Jytdog: Ah, I see - I used the term "fair trade" three times when I meant "free trade". It is true that the term "fair trade" had not been used on the article talk page by me, or you, or anybody. I spoke at length on free trade on the article talk page and I think that most people would tend to agree that I do seem to be aware of what it means. You may accept that I did follow your difs and try to understand our differences while never noting my mistake, or you can think I'm incompetent, trying to denigrate, etc. At any rate, I apologize for my mistake. Gandydancer ( talk) 15:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Bernie Sanders has spouted anti-GMO bollocks, so that requires care on Jytdog's part. Frankly if I were him I would leave well alone. There are loads of other articles to edit and enough people who are after Jytdog's blood and will spend their lives dragging every marginal call to this board that it's probably better to stay clear in the interests of a quiet life. Guy ( Help!) 17:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
[Univolved as far as I recall.] I haven't dug into the exact nature of the editor's participation and am not comfortable projecting any ideas about whether Jytdog is or should be aware of a Sanders–GMO connection (I have faith that ArbCom is competent to apply a DUCK/SPADE analysis, COMMONSENSE, etc.). I think there's a general risk here, with multiple levels:
I don't raise any of this pro or con the specifics in this case. Frankly, I remain skeptical about the participation on that bio page. But it seems like something to keep an eye on, not something to whip out the noose for.
Regardless of the determination in this case, my point is: Please consider very carefully about this. While ArbCom isn't precedent-bound literally, it's clear that it has leaned more and more toward continuity and consistency between cases in recent years (and I'm pretty sure almost everyone thinks this is a good thing). So, an overbroad approach to this question in this case (even if the result were deserved) could lead to overbroad approaches in later ones, including sanctions that aren't really merited, or just a general chilling effect. Since we use a lot of legal metaphors here, like chilling effect and overbreadth, I suggest that a wiki equivalent of criminal intent needs to be a factor. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
I've been watching this, and I decided to leave this relatively late comment now. I think that the Arbs are getting it right in their replies, so those replies should settle the immediate issues at hand. But I do think that SMcCandlish makes some very good points, that deserve to be reemphasized. I'm seeing a pretty heavy use of aspersions at numerous editors lately, of just the kind of asserting an agenda of editing on behalf of GMO companies, and the editors doing it are getting increasingly clever about wording it in ways that superficially mask the real agenda of casting aspersions. There's one case of it at ANI right now, and it's pretty clear that administrators do not want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. There is a real possibility of ArbCom finding yourselves with something like GMO-2, so I think that you should have that heads-up. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I originally wasn't going to comment here as I was confident arbs would come to the same conclusion they currently did so far in that it's fine as long as a a topic-banned editor isn't editing an article that's about the topic ban subject or an area of tangential articles. That being said, I do want to echo Tryptofish and say that arbs should keep an eye on who's "out for blood" in recent enforcement cases or clarifications. This is probably the biggest stretch of broadly construed so far by those trying to claim this violated the topic ban. One concern is the hounding of multiple editors by AlbinoFerret as Jytdog described above. I haven't decided if it's best to present that evidence at enforcement or if something like that is better handled at GMO-2 as Trypto mentioned, but just a heads up that there's still a lot of things festering that we just didn't have the time, space, or energy to deal with at the first case. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 02:21, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
This crap has gone on long enough. Admins have got to start liberally handing out blocks, bans, or whatever it takes to clean up the GMO cesspit. I have some professional knowledge I'd like to add on the topic (related to the potential for unintended outcrossing by windborne pollen) but don't dare edit the topic because of the utterly toxic atmosphere on anything related to GMOs. Things are only getting worse and the time for half-measures has long passed. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris ( talk) 03:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Excellent troll Jytdog, and I say that as someone who has amused himself early and often trolling self-righteous WP admins and internet "science" activists. Now, I'm off to buy some stock in Monsanto. Cla68 ( talk) 17:48, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I have another clarification request here. Jytdog and I are both under an interaction ban. Jytdog recently closed a discussion in which I was engaged [28] I am not going to pretend this was a flagrant abuse of the IB, but it seems to me that it is an interaction - possibly of the remotest kind. But, after all, the closure means Jytdog is effectively preventing me from making further posts to that thread. Given that discouraging Jytdog from closing discussions in which I am involved is hardly likely to affect his editing in any significant way, I suggest it might be best if this is avoided in the future. Oh, as a very minor side issue, the discussion also contained some GMO content. It could be construed that Jytdog, by closing the discussion and leaving a comment, is commenting on GMO-related posts. All I am asking is whether Jytdog should in the future avoid closing discussions in which I have been involved - I am not asking for any action to be taken.DrChrissy (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Mystery Wolff at 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
1. Regarding the Arbcom outcome. It states:
Enforcement of restrictions: 0) Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.
Clarification is sought on how this works. Specifically in a case where other dispute resolutions options are not used, and an editor brings AE Requests. SHALL the outcome of the first event be no greater than 30 days? If the answer is Yes please state. If the answer is NO, please clarify what the language means.
2. Is the outcome of the Arbcom that all issues with Dispute Resolution needs with first be visited to the for AE requests? That the AE is the only Dispute Resolution option for all pages covered by the Arbcom? If not, what are the expectations of how Dispute Resolution should be handled for pages subject to Discretionary Sanctions?
3. For Appeals of AE decisions premised upon Arbcom (or otherwise) Should Admins who were involved with the original decision be participating in the Appeals process as "judges" i.e. Is the documented Appeals process to be carried out only by Admins who did not participate in the first AE?
4. Who determines if an Administrator is "involved" with editors in the AE. Is there any process. When should the determination of such be made?
5. Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.
Thank you for your Clarifications in advance. Mystery Wolff ( talk) 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@
Thryduulf: Please stop shifting my request for clarification to something it is not. This is not "appeal that appeal to the arbitration committee", or an appeal. Above, I am asking for clarification to process. As the items have not been remarked to, I can not disagree with something that is not there. Please stop personifying and respond to the process questions above or if TLDR for you, allow others to do so. Stop making it about me.
Mystery Wolff (
talk) 09:47, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
In response to Mystery Wolff's followup question, when an appeal is made then uninvolved administrators look at all the information available and decide based on that whether the sanction was appropriate or not. If the blocking administrator does not or cannot (for whatever reason) contribute to the discussion then the other administrators will just not have that information available. They will still be able to examine the logs, the original thread, and all links posted with the appeal and with the original discussion that led to the sanction. If anything, the closing admin not participating is more likely to favour the appealing user as they will not be able to present their case or explain why they chose the action they did that another admin may not have done.
Neither arbcom nor AE is a court and nobody wins or loses based on minor procedural errors - not that there were any in your case. Thryduulf ( talk) 12:03, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
5. Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.
What part of discretionary sanctions allow or suggest: "People who are still coming up the learning curve on Wikipedia should stay away from troubled areas." What are the various tiers of editorship? I was previously of the understanding that there was only locking of articles to where you needed to be verified. How is the learning curve graded, and how are editors graduated through the different levels?
If I may, perhaps the Committee, or some number of Arbs, could instruct one of the clerks to wrap this up neatly with a bow and put it in the archives? Unless, that is, Salvio wants to bask in the healing warmth of the accolades a while longer. BMK ( talk) 19:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Hijiri88 at 05:08, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
In the last eight days Catflap08 has posted two comments related to Wikipedia's coverage of an adherent of Nichiren Buddhism, and attacked another user's contributions to the area as "white washing". [30] [31] Catflap08 and I are both topic-banned from "Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents, broadly construed". The edits he was referring to took place over a month after the TBAN was put in place. [32] [33]
He also explicitly requested that others contact him by email about the topic. This is very suspicious, given his history of violating our mutual IBAN via proxy. If violating the TBAN via proxy was the intent here, it would be a tremendous violation of the spirit of the TBAN, and either of us having a forum that allows us to gather meatpuppets should not be allowed.
Catflap08 says the reason he posted on a noticeboard is because he is "officially banned from articles relating to Nichiren Buddhism" (my emphasis). This seems to imply that his interpretation of the ban is narrower than the wording on WP:TBAN, which says "making edits related to a certain topic area" (my emphasis). The wording of both our bans as placed on WP:RESTRICT when the original case closed is "indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents, broadly construed" (my emphasis). Catflap08 has apparently interpreted the latter quotation as meaning that edits to "pages" that are "not related to" Nichiren Buddhism (including all noticeboards and user talk pages) are not covered by the ban, even if one of us explicitly comments on the topic of "Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents".
Was this the original intent?
If so, the wording should be altered to clarify ("indefinitely banned from all pages relating to Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents, broadly construed; this ban covers articles and their talk pages, but pages in the Wikipedia or User namespaces are exempt").
If not, the wording should still be modified to clarify ("indefinitely banned from making any edits relating to Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents, broadly construed"), and Catflap08 should be either blocked or told off for (repeatedly) violating the ban.
(Because there's a risk someone will bring this up: I neither know nor care what the nature of the edits was. Catflap08 is not allowed comment on the edits on-wiki, and neither am I. I have no strong feelings about Mr. Makiguchi one way or the other. I am not, nor was I ever, trying to "white-wash" anything.)
I am quite unsure if I should laugh or cry …maybe both. I asked this [ [34]] which was moved to EAR and I was told in an email by what seems an admin to either seek the talk page (which due to the ban I refrain from doing) or turn to the Tea House. So asking questions about an edit is a violation of the TBAN???? This gets better every time. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 19:26, 19 February 2016 (UTC) @ Spartaz Just to be on the safe side. I am not into socks … I do wear them though. But do by all means go ahead with the investigation as I myself suspect a sock too. At the same time you may indicate where to turn to when one comes across problematic edits within areas one is banned from. If asking such a question is already a breach of a ban this in some ways censorship.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 20:49, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an obvious TBAN violation and can be dealt with at WP:AE. You do not need clarification for this point and can withdraw this request. IMO Its a clear vio and block worthy. With regard to the edits Catflap08 was referencing, the user making them Haroli43 is obviously someone who has previously edited wikipedia using another identity/account. I have asked for disclosure but since their first edit was to a an area subject to recent arbitration I'm also wondering abusive sock. Spartaz Humbug! 08:35, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Prokaryotes at 05:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Related to this decision. I've asked admin MastCell, here on his talk page to reconsider the topic ban, and here at AN. However, admin MastCell did not reconsider the topic ban and AN was not conclusive. Main issue with the topic ban is that after self reverting 1RR, MastCell noted no further action required, another admin suggested 2 to 7 days ban (before self revert). Additional admin MastCell did not provide difs for his enforcement, the admin explained the topic ban as follows:
QUOTE by admin MastCell:..pattern of disruptive editing on the part of Prokaryotes is clear and continuing. This pattern includes disruptive stonewalling on talkpages, misuse of sourcing guidelines, edit-warring, personal attacks, and so on
The enforcement request was initially filed by editor Tryptofish. A couple of weeks earlier, MastCell made it clear to Tryptofish that he supports him, thus he is not really neutral when getting involved with topic bans related to Tryptofish's request. I ask Arbcom to reconsider MastCell's decision, to undo my topic ban, because he failed to provide evidence for wrongdoing, because according to his own statement, no actions were required after i self reverted the reported 1RR violation, and because based on his own account, he is a supporter of Tryptofish. prokaryotes ( talk) 05:06, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@Rose2LP, good points, also notice Spartaz posted
to my talk page, hours after he closed the AN discussion, after i posted here, ignoring my explanations at AN, and called my actions there "disgusting", then even claimed that editors participating over there are "my flashmob". Seriously, if someone is poisoning the well then it is based in such unreflected comments, totally absent from expecting good faith, ignoring input from the other sides, and continuing a pattern of baseless arguments. Hopefully we can use this request here to focus on the issue at hand.
prokaryotes (
talk) 08:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@JzG, it is unclear why JzG brings up info about an alt account, when he was well aware of it, as well as at least some Arbcom members, and brought to at ANI by JzG, and is unrelated to the current discussion. JzG wrote below, "a currently undisclosed alternate account (actually disclosed briefly on-wiki and then removed by them a few minutes later)" - when in fact it has been discussed at Arb, ANI and elsewhere, with involvement of JzG. In response Rose has removed her previous comment, but there was no reason to do so.
@MastCell, he mentions, "appeal at WP:AN, where there was essentially unanimous support for the topic ban from uninvolved editors and admins", this is simply not true, besides me there are five or six other editors who question the topic ban, Johnuniq, Spartaz, JzG, MastCell, Tryptofish and Kingofaces supporting. I explained at AN why i opened the discussion, because Spartaz participated in the discussion, and because at least at ANI closure is done by editors/admins who did not take part (at least that is my impression). prokaryotes ( talk) 19:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@Callanecc you wrote " the exercise of administrative discretion (by MastCell) by completely reasonable", can you link to a dif which makes his action completely reasonable? At least you should ask him to provide such difs, some real evidence - then judge in your position as a clerk arbitrator.
prokaryotes (
talk) 01:27, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
prokaryotes (
talk) 01:51, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
@Arbitrator, The main issue is, that discretion has been applied, without evidence (difs), thus arbitrators should ask the enforcer to provide these difs for the claims quoted above. prokaryotes ( talk) 01:58, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
@Drmies, re MC's involvement, here he goes into detail about his job and how he uses GMO related stuff (notice the paper he refers to has been republished), here he chats with Tryptofish, and how he thinks GMOs are safer than conventional foods. Here MastCell endorses Tryptofish for adminship, gives his support, here he made 36 edits to a BLP article of a GMO opponent, adding critical opinion. I don't see an issue with his GMO edits, i see an issue with his close relationship with Tryptofish, who filed the AE, and he made it clear in his comments that he supports T's views. Maybe this is something for ARCA, when missing difs aren't. prokaryotes ( talk) 03:17, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
OMG. prokaryotes ( talk) 03:59, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Punishment Does Not Fit Crime; Edit Warring By Accusers Source of Problem; Double-Standards
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I support this appeal. The punishment did not fit the crime. I am not even convinced that the 1RR violation was a true 1RR violation--if so it was a technicality. The two changes were to the same sentence [37] and [38] with only one intervening edit by me [39] to a different sentence. Hence if the two edits were made at the same time, there would have been no issue. Additionally, the material reverted was edit-warred in here, here and then later here (that was self-reverted here). Aircorn acknowledged his/her mistake and worked with Prokaryotes to get the matter resolved, and the matter should have been dropped. But prokaryotes' accusers never admitted their wrong-doing and insisted on a topic ban. The topic ban was a gross miscarriage of justice when the accusers were equally guilty and never owned up to it and were not even warned. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 09:10, 10 February 2016 (UTC) |
False Claim: "unanimous support for the topic ban"
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Mastcell above says, regarding the "appeal at WP:AN, where there was essentially unanimous support for the topic ban from uninvolved editors and admins." That is clearly not true. There, Kingofaces43 identified " Nyttend, Spartaz, Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, Johnuniq, and Liz" as "appear[ing] unquestionably uninvolved..." [40]. A simple review of the comments of the five identified shows that only Spartaz and Johnuniq clearly supported Mastcell's action and the remaining three took no position: [41], [42], [43]. |
Not "vexatious" litigation
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Above Mastcell says that the accused has filed "vexatious" litigation. |
According to statements below, the accused has the right to these appeals, and I urged that the accused take such action. To call it vexatious is completely inappropriate and prejudicial. |
Plea: Overturn TB -or- Remand
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For all these reason the TB should be overturned and the ruling overturned or remanded ideally to ArbCom. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 19:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC) |
I disagree with Roxy the dog's assertion that the point is now moot, because the accused has voluntarily accepted a 6 month ban. It is not moot because the indefinite TB would extend, if the editor were to come back in 6 months or request reinstatement prior to that. Given that the accused voluntary acceptance of a 6 month Wikipedia ban from ALL articles, I think a just result would be that the TB run concurrently with the 6 month ban, and expire after 6 months.
It makes me sad that the accused's unjust treatment has driven him or her to "wiki-suicide". We really need to look at how badly we are treating our editors, how unpleasant it makes the editing environment to allow ad hominem attacks from some editors but not their victims [44], allowing editors to blatantly lie about content and suffer no consequences [45] [46], and how such unjust treatment and double-standards are driving people away, creating biased POV content and causing us to lose readership [1] from those who recognize the bias in our articles. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 20:54, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
What's ArbCom's opinion on involvement in these processes by a currently undisclosed alternate account (actually disclosed briefly on-wiki and then removed by them a few minutes later) of an editor with outstanding sanctions and a history with one of the parties? And is this considered a valid use of an alternate account? Guy ( Help!) 12:07, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
One of the elephants in the room here is that MastCell only gets involved in Arb Enforcement in relation to health-related science topics and, in that capacity, he only topic bans or sanctions editors who appear to be taking the side against the house POV on that particular topic. It has been alleged that, ( Personal attack removed). If true, is this ok, or like Future Perfect at Sunrise and JzG, is he doing "WP's good work?" Cla68 ( talk) 15:21, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
A few nits:
A plaintive wail:
And (due to an edit conflict) an offended growl:
More:
In the GMO case, my much-reviled Workshop proposals included a recommended site ban for Prokaryotes. I wasn't wrong. ArbCom, you are now seeing the results of your failure to fix the problem the first time. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
To the Arbs who have now seen first-hand what it has felt like during this discussion here: please consider how that has felt while editing content, with the same kinds of argument style on article talk pages. You've gotten some very clear feedback from administrators who have found themselves in the middle of this, and you should keep all of that in mind if and when (really: when) GMO conduct issues come before you again. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:24, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Seeing the discussion about "moot", I think that it would be helpful to make clear exactly what that means, so as not to have any confusion about it in the future. ArbCom declining the request means that the topic ban remains in effect, because ArbCom declined to overrule it. That's all. It does not mean that Prokaryotes gets a get-out-of-jail-for-free card, simply by taking a six-month self-requested block. I hope that, if he should eventually return to editing, Prokaryotes will not be unclear about the fact that the topic ban remains very much in effect. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:35, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I simply fail to see what the point of arbitration is when the aftermath of a case leaves an unmanagable situation for admins at AE to try to wade through.
Apparently, I am a bad person for closing a discussion and then reclosing it when a deeply involved party decided that they didn't need to accept the determination of an uninvolved admin that the consensus was to uphold their tban. Then my honesty and integrity are called into question as a simple ploy to downplay the validity of my close and the tban. I get ADMINACC. My record for the 9 years I have been an admin shows that but seriously? There has to be a limit. There has to be a point where the surfeit of pings and messages I should be expected to deal with suggest that the committee was too lenient when they closed a case.
Its no wonder that AE is functionally broken and no admin in their right mind wants to get involved. A process that waits weeks for feedback and comment is unfair on everyone and I'd like to think the committee might get that and spend some time trying to set up a system that actually works.
While you are fixing AE, can I also ask this iteration of the committee to avoid storing up future trouble by being a bit more aggressive in banning people who clearly cannot get along or who have too litigious an approach to fare well here? Can you also make sure you frame your sanctions in a way that is less ambiguous? For example, if you mean a tban say tban and not page ban. Its hard enough at AE without needing telepathy to understand what the committee intended.
As the initiator of this request has now asked for, and received, a site ban (6 months)
here all this is now moot, I think. -
Roxy the dog™
woof 15:50, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
I've changed my thoughts on this, following David Tornheim's comments above, and GorillaWarfare below. Note that PK has not retired, and that a six month 'self-imposed' site ban appears to be a cynical way of avoiding examination of the OP's behaviour, which imho, bears examination. I believe that if ARBCOM were to look at the issue, there would be little reason not to re-enforce the sanction MastCell imposed, sending a clear message, and not just to PK, but to other editors involved in the area of GMOs. - Roxy the dog™ woof 11:44, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
Just to note and thank those who have considered this point, it is appreciated. - Roxy the dog™ woof 11:57, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
MAY I ADD, he added (that's me), y'all REALLY want to be careful here lest admonishments and blocks start flying: no outing, no accusations that cannot be supported, no supporting evidence that even smells like outing. If you have something to say that should be kept private, at least for the time being, keep it private. Email a friendly admin, and/or a reasonable Arb, and let DGG have a look at it. The clerks are in an uproar, the Arbs are scurrying this way and that, and the WMF is quickly retreating into the company sauna in the Big Sur, because this can possibly get out of hand and no one wants to be around when that happens. Let it not get out of hand, please: and you know, dear reader, who I'm talking to. Drmies ( talk) 03:01, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Debresser at 20:44, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Is the topicban for Chesdovi ( talk · contribs) on ARBPIA articles that was decided upon at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive106#Chesdovi still in force?
Then can any of you please explain to me why he created an article like Palestinian wine, which gave rise to much ARBPIA-related controversy? Debresser ( talk) 00:00, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
I see that there was an appeal of a topic-ban-related block in 2012. [49] Though the initial topic ban was for one year [50], it was later changed to indefinite. I checked the user's talk page archives and I don't see any notice of a subsequent appeal of the topic ban, successful or otherwise, though I guess Chesdovi could have removed it. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 22:22, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Chesdovi's most recent edit to Palestinian wine is here. The article itself doesn't seem to contain any allusions to the Israel-Arab conflict, though it does mention kosher wine and Jewish wineries. If there's something in here that violates the topic ban, you could file a complaint at AE and provide diffs to the ARBPIA-related controversy in question. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 00:53, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Hijiri88 at 07:33, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
My TBAN is from the area of "Japanese culture". I have taken this to mean that I am banned from editing or discussing all topics related to "Japan" anywhere on English Wikipedia, but there is a slight grey area, in that I live in Japan and virtually all the sources I have access to are Japanese ones. I assumed that the ban was on the "topic" of Japanese culture, and usage of particular sources and casually mentioning of my editing circumstances while editing in topics completely unrelated to Japan would be acceptable. But it was recently implied that the phrase "pages related to" in the TBANs resulting from this case is not meant to be interpreted narrowly, though.
So I have a few questions:
A little while ago another user explicitly mentioned the Japanese nature of one of my sources, and I wasn't sure what I was allowed say in my response. Should I email users who say these things and explain my situation, and politely ask that they not mention Japan when they are discussing non-Japanese topics with me on a talk page?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 07:33, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sir Joseph at 13:29, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I was given a one week topic ban from the Bernie Sanders article.I then filed an appeal.during the appeal one admin decided that because I mentioned that I found it troubling and perhaps anti-Semitic that out of 535 members of Congress we focus on the Jew he thinks I should be topic banned for longer. Bishonen claimed in the ban statement that it's not for filling an appeal but it's for a battlefield mentality and to protect the page. Have you seen the page? I'm not the one who is bullying others. And it's still a battleground. I'm not the one using wikilawyering. Go to eb.con and see their article. Their claim that in the future I will be disruptive is not true either. I have been nothing. Look at my history. I've not edited the page until I've reached consensus. I've taken the one week ban but the six month ban is just a bunch of administrators acting inappropriate. I never accused others of being anti-Semitic. I said it is a perception of anti-Semitism when you single out the Jew. Coffee is also making up facts with regards to the timeline. He changed the ban after Spartaz blocked me because coffee had banned me incorrectly. All you have to do is look at the timestamps. So now an admin is lying to cover his tracks, besides covering his bad block. Regardless, discussion about the ban is allowed, it says so right on the ban. So which is it? Are we not allowed to question or are we? I've yet to have one good reason why I am being singled out and banned for six months.
For full clarity, I was the imposing administrator of the original 1 week Arbitration Enforcement topic ban on Sir Joseph (but per WP:UNINVOLVED, in relevance to this extended ban I am uninvovled). That ban was upheld at WP:AE by multiple other administrators, and then closed by EdJohnston with the note that a 6 month ban could be put in place if seen fit. As I noted at WP:AE, after the continuous refusal by Sir Joseph to WP:DROPTHESTICK and his continuous battle ground mentality in dealing with this matter (including the egregious behavior of accusing other editors of being antisemitic, which is what pushed me to ban Sir Joseph from all pages relating to topic, not just the article space - as noted at Sir Joseph's talk page), I felt that my 1 week ban was indeed not enough - as had been noted by several other admins. I felt originally that my action would be enough to deter Sir Joseph from continuing his behavior in relation to that highly visible page, but after watching his reaction that idea went out the window. I now fully support the actions of Bishonen here, in the extension of my original ban, as I think it is the only reasonable way to prevent furthered disruption to the Bernie Sanders article moving forward. That's all I'll comment on this matter at this time, you can see the rest of my earlier comments at the AE appeal, etc. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 15:35, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Please find the OP's PA on the TB-ing admin here – Unless this is a slip of the tongue, being angered over being TBd, quickly removed, I suppose this should come with a sanction, one-week block or something of that order. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:09, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Note: I attempted to discuss this on Sir Joseph's talk page because he is blocked and cannot reply here. I moved my comment here after Sir Joseph removed it from his talk page (which of course he is free to do). [51]
I would like to expand on what I said at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement:
Regarding Sir Joseph's various and sundry accusations of antisemitism towards me, my only interest in the Bernie Sanders page is to bring it into compliance with the consensus at Template talk:Infobox#RfC: Religion in infoboxes and Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 28#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion. I don't particularly like being called antisemetic for attempting to implement the consensus from infobox RfCs. I choose to edit using my real name and that's the sort of false accusation that tends to follow you around.
As my extensive edit history clearly shows, I have no particular interest in religion articles or political articles. Contrast this with Sir Joseph's edit history, which shows that his primary interest is articles related to Jews and Judaism. His recent edits include Western Wall, Zionism, Jerusalem, Katamon, Purim, List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2016, Mohamed Hadid, and of course Bernie Sanders, and his first ten edits back in 2005 included Tisha B'Av, Niddah, Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, Rabbi, and Four species. There is nothing wrong with having a primary interest (my primary interest is electronics and software engineering) but there is something wrong with someone who's primary interest is articles related to Jews and Judaism calling me antisemitic when it is an easily-verified fact that I have little or no interest in the subject.
I would also like to comment on Sir Joseph's unsupported assertion "The claim that Bernie Sanders is not Jewish is the one that is dangerous and is a BLP violation." [52] made during his AE topic ban appeal. That comment is indicative of the problem that the other editors on the Sander page are facing when dealing with Sir Joseph. Leaving aside for a moment that it is a bald-faced lie -- not one single editor has ever claimed that Bernie Sanders is not Jewish and Sir Joseph has been told this by at least a dozen editors -- it also shows a determination to Right Great Wrongs by hijacking a discussion that should be about removing his topic ban and turning it into a discussion about Bernie Sanders being a Jew -- itself a violation of the topic ban.
In my opinion, the best interests of the encyclopedia would be served by an indefinite topic ban from all pages relating to Jews of Judaism, broadly construed, with the standard offer that if Sir Joseph shows that he can edit constructively in other areas for six months there is a high probability that a request that the topic ban be lifted will be granted. Material removed by request of uninvolved admin.
[53] --
Guy Macon (
talk) 07:56, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Note: some of the entries in the discretionary sanctions log are under the previous username Yossiea~enwiki. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 19:03, 6 March 2016 (UTC) Refactored 01:04, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Coffee is quote correct that my block of Sir Joseph was a result of my personal failure to realise that the original sanction had been amended. This wasn't clear in the notice so I assumed that what it said at the time of the block was covered why the notice on Sir Joseph's page. It would have been less confusing if Coffee had struck out the original notice and inserted a new one. I voted to extend and confirm the topic ban at AE and the outcome reflects the consensus of admin opinion expressed. On that basis this clarification has no basis. The outcome is not manifestly perverse but there was some poor judgement at times - i.e. why an article block and not talk page? That's just stupid as 95% of AE reported problems have a talk page element.
And that takes me to my real concern. I personally strongly disagree with any admin whose actions are being reviewed at ARCA taking an opportunity to block the appealing editor. This strikes me as very poor judgement - especially when followed by an indef for a legal threat that I personally cannot see. My response to seeing that was real-life head shaking and jaw dropping. There has been some very poor judgement in this case by Coffee and its perfectly understandable that Sir Joseph finds the outcome so hard to accept when the process and decision-making has a hint of half-arsedness about it. I don't think the committee can, in fairness, dismiss this appeal without considering whether Coffee's poor judgement has undermined the credibility of the AE process and whether they have good enough judgement to be working in this area. Spartaz Humbug! 20:16, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
ArbCom should use the current ARCA request, or some other pretext, to put the kibosh on any and all "Is ______ Jewish?" controversies, in info boxes and elsewhere, for a year.
The underlying content issue is complicated. It’s also ancient: passages in Exodus and Deuteronomy are dedicated to it. Whole books have been written on the parable of the four children, which addresses just one aspect of it. In modern times, it was the subject of the Jacob Gordon’s great Konig Lir, it was (alas) extensively litigated by the Nazis, and it's a controversial touchpoint in contemporary Israeli politics, where determining “Who Is A Jew?” determines immigration policy.
No good can come of this topic. In the current political environment, the topic can and will attract kooks and zealots, along with misled teenagers of all ages with a Bright Idea.
The data value of the "religion" field in the info box is marginal to all save the fascist fringe of the American right. No one’s research will be greatly impeded by removing it for the coming months, or by freezing it. I would also suggest that the freeze be proactively extended to questions of who is or is not Chicano, Puertorriqueño, etc.
Simply remove the infobox line for the time being, or freeze them and topic ban the entire project from further discussion for the rest of the year. At the cost of muddying the encyclopedia on these rather narrow matters for a few months, we gain freedom from constant vexatious dispute. More important, we may avoid having one of these vexatious disputes blow up into international headlines, to the projects lasting (and perhaps irretrievable) discredit. MarkBernstein ( talk) 22:02, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I would add that it appears Coffee is a bit too involved if he is blocking based on a statement of informing the ADL. That is not a threat, let alone a legal threat. Coffee needs to withdraw a bit. -- DHeyward ( talk) 22:43, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
@ MarkBernstein: A sound suggestion which, sadly, the rules are going to preclude here. Something needs to be done about this dispute, though, or it's going to end up with arbcom doing something about it in pretty short order. The level of battleground and idht evident in the various RfCs around it is pretty depressing. For a dispute that boils down to the question, "When someone says, 'I am Jewish,' does he mean he has a Jewish mother, he identifies with Jewish culture or he holds to some version of Jewish belief as a religion? And is this worth mentioning in an infobox?" the number of characters spilled into pixels is truly staggering. GoldenRing ( talk) 10:40, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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Initiated by Zero0000 at 01:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
I'm writing concerning the General Prohibition "All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict."
Unfortunately many articles are seeing a lot of edits from IPs and others failing to meet this requirement (many of which are probably unaware of it) followed by reverts by others. Semi-protection would help a lot. My question is: since semi-protection will have no effect on editors who are entitled to edit at all, can semi-protection be applied by involved administrators?
Of course automated enforcement of the prohibition would be the best solution.
I don't think the committee should make any blanket endorsement of involved administrator action. I can envision disputes over which articles fall under the general prohibition, and things can turn ugly if there is an WP:INVOLVED case. Obviously, the reasonability rule still applies—if an involved admin protects a page that any reasonable administrator would also protect, then there shouldn't be any issues (see third paragraph of WP:INVOLVED). But this is a very case-by-case thing, and if there is even a slight possibility of contentiousness (and in this topic area, this might always be the case...), always WP:RFPP. Mz7 ( talk) 06:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Would it be possible to create some form of hidden maintenance category that includes all the pages under the restriction, and craft a bot or an edit filter that disallows or automatically reverts and warns users fall under the restrictions? If ARCA is not the right venue for discussing this, we should probably have a community discussion. Mz7 ( talk) 19:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Mdann52: According to WP:CASCADE, cascading semi-protection is currently not available to administrators, as it would effectively allow non-administrators to semi-protect pages. Even if it were possible, by my understanding of cascade, you would have to transclude every page you want to semi-protect onto one page, which would be rather cumbersome. Mz7 ( talk) 20:57, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
It was fairly clear that there would be trouble making this fly. The difference between a 500/30 protection on one article, and the same on a whole topic is one of kind not quantity.
While it is technically feasible to find a solution, it is pretty undesirable to effectively topic-ban 7 billion people - especially given the breadth with which these topic bans are interpreted. It is equivalent to banning all under 60s from parkland, becasue some youth drop litter. (More topical analogies might also spring to mind.)
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 12:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC).
I meant to open an WP:ARCA request for this, but was too lazy and forgot.
I suggest the following, which is explicitly allowed by the remedy. This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters.
Let the emphasis of the enforcement be on reverts rather than semi-protection, edit filters or blocks. Use semi-protection sparingly and temporarily, in direct response to disruption.
Zero0000's proposal about involved admins applying semi-protection (ideally temporarily) seems good to me. The emphasis on blocks makes the most sense, is most consistent and least harmful. It is trivial to undo any bad edits by IPs, inexperienced editors etc. In my experience, just mentioning the magic word
WP:ARBPIA3 is enough to "win" any content dispute (the recent flap involving Huldra is an exception rather than the rule; she didn't say the magic word).
Kingsindian
♝
♚ 07:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
If we are going to do this, it may make sense to create a page (eg WP:Palestine-Israel articles 3), place that under cascading semi-protection, then allow editors to add articles to it in this topic area as needed. I'd note we do also have Special:AbuseFilter/698, although this will not work effectively on larger scale applications - there just aren't the resources available for it to run! Mdann52 ( talk) 22:01, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Without comment on the substantive issue, could an edit filter not check for a specific category or a template on the talk page? Or perhaps the existence of a specific editnotice, since those can only be created by administrators and a handful of others? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:01, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, this is basically a repeat of what I've written
below... we already have a
filter that disallows unqualified users to edit a explicit set of articles, which an edit filter manager can add to easily. However there has been long discussion (
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]) of a template/filter-based solution. You would add {{pp-30-500}}
to any page and an edit filter would apply the 30/500 editing restriction to that page. An additional filter ensures only admins can add/remove it. See {{
User:MusikAnimal/pp-30-500}}. Users would be able to request an article be put under 30/500 at
WP:RFPP. So in effect we have a new form of protection until we can get WMF to create what we need. The filters need to make this work are ready to implemented, but I haven't done so yet as I also felt broader input was needed —
MusikAnimal
talk 01:49, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
@
Mdann52: I am confident the two filters needed to make a template-based solution won't have a noticeable effect on performance. We have numerous other filters that are less restrictive and with much more complex regular expressions. With
Special:AbuseFilter/698 we are already halfway there. This sounds expensive, but performance is greatly improved by restricting the filter to the article/talk space, to users with < 500 edits, and then checking for the presence of the pp-30-500
template. We could do one better and require admins add it to the very top of the article, so the regex won't need to scan the whole page —
MusikAnimal
talk 02:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by When Other Legends Are Forgotten at 04:29, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
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Does an article need to be tagged with the {{ARBPIA}} template on its associated Talk page for it to be considered subject to the case restrictions (30/500)? I am referring to articles which clearly relate to the conflict (e.g, they contain text such as "Palestinians exiled in 1948 are denied their right of return.", and as such , it would be hard to argue that they could not "be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict".
A further clarification is required with regards to IPs ability to edit talk pages of articles subject to the 30/500 restriction, as it seems that some administrators are of the opinion that they are allowed to edit such pages (see [7])
@ MusikAnimal: - I am not opposed to enforcing the restriction via a template, in fact, I would welcome such a measure. But that really does not address the issue I am asking clarification for, nor does your suggestion that only admins be allowed to add the template seem sensible to me - there is no such requirement to add the {{ARBPIA}] template to such articles today - any editor can do so, at their discretion. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands of articles subject to the restriction, and many of them are not tagged. Are we to wait until an admin sees fit to add the template to articles such as Jibril Agreement before IPs can be reasonably prevented (via reverts ) from editing them in contravention of the restriction?
{{pp-30-500}}
template on the subject page. I don't want to get too carried away with technical matters, and further backlog my list of to-dos, but the template approach to enforcing the 500/30 restriction is at the top of that list -- and I really think it is the best solution, which means we will require admin intervention to qualify an article for 30/500 but in a way that's more formal and conducive to a stable editing environment —
MusikAnimal
talk 06:57, 31 December 2015 (UTC){{pp-30-500}}
which automatically enforces the editing restriction, the addition of it will absolutely have to be left to admins (they
can be involved, assuming there's no question it applies to that article). This is a powerful editing restriction, much moreso than semi, pending-changes, or even PC2. We can not let just anyone add it, we need admins to verify it is truly needed on that article or else it's usage is subject to abuse. Again, getting admin attention is as simple as making an RFPP request. These are processed quickly.Now, if an article is clearly subject to the arbitration remedy, anyone can of course enforce the 30/500 restriction manually, but they should at least add {{
ARBPIA}} to the talk page so people are aware this is a thing, and also request 30-500 protection assuming they are aware it exists. There might also be articles where only a portion of it is subject to 30/500 restriction. In such a case we obviously wouldn't protect it with {{pp-30-500}}
, and enforement would have to be left to page watchers.Again mind you there is an edit filter already doing this job, just doesn't go off of a template admins can add, which is the better solution as it won't require edit filter managers to update which articles are protected. This edit filter was put in place as a result of
this ArbCom case, and it's usage was challenged and upheld
here and
here. The filter-enforced disallowing of edits is favourable over letting editors do the job manually, as it presents a friendly edit notice telling the user why they can't edit, as opposed to bitey page watchers reverting with the summary "you can't edit here". All in all, if we are to keep the 30/500 editing restriction, I see no reason why we shouldn't do in a way consistent with other page protections, especially given this one is the more powerful of protections.{{pp-30-500}}
to enforce the 30/500 editing restriction.I also agree with Xaosflux that edit notices (and the {{
ARBPIA}} on the talk page) should be required. The issue is unqualified editors still see the Edit button, and may spend some time making sizable contributions before edit filters disallows the edit, or someone reverts them. It's only fair for them to be given prior notice —
MusikAnimal
talk 21:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)I do not think that a tag should be required. Experience with the ARBPIA sanctions over several years shows that the few disputes over which articles are included are fairly easy for the admins at AE to decide. And once they have decided, the status of that article is settled from then on.
In case a tag is decided, it would be a very bad idea to require an uninvolved admin to add it. The outcome of such a rule in practice would that the sanctions would only ever be active in a small fraction of the articles in which they are required. I propose the opposite: any editor satisfying the 30/500 condition can add a tag; any uninvolved administrator can rule that the tag is not appropriate for that article. (But I still think that no tags at all would be better.) Zero talk 07:19, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Regarding talk pages, previous restrictions in the ARBPIA series were not applied to talk pages and I think it would be bad policy to start now. Talk pages should be open to all editors in good standing. Editors who cannot edit an article themselves should still be able to go onto the talk page and make suggestions for article improvement. If necessary, the wording of ARBPIA3 should be adjusted to make this clearer. Zero talk 23:59, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Guerillero:, yes, the literal reading of "any page" includes talk pages, project pages, even user pages (eg my talk page is clearly related to the i-p conflict; are IPs now forbidden from writing there?). However I looked in vain for any discussion or even mention of this issue on the ARBPIA3 pages and seriously wonder if the arbitrators who voted for the proposal noticed that it said "page" rather than "article". If an IP notices a typo, where can be it legally reported? Zero talk 07:32, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
While it's clear that ARBCOM explicitly allow for the GP to be enforced in any way that is currently possible including manual reverts, When Other Legends Are Forgotten seems to be under the impression that the restrictions can be enforced by sockpuppets of topic banned/blocked users, such as himself, very probably a sock of NoCal100, during the often extended periods Wikipedia's slow and deeply flawed system of protection against sockpuppetry allows the sock to remain active. Perhaps ARBCOM could make it clear that sockpuppets of blocked users are never allowed to enforce the restrictions (or indeed do anything at all in ARBPIA) and When Other Legends Are Forgotten could accept and abide by that clear rule so that we don't have the absurd and counterproductive situation of a person who is not allowed to edit in ARBPIA (or anywhere) telling people that they are not allowed to edit in ARBPIA. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:27, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Personally I abhor that a new "class" of editor has been created by decree of ArbCom. That being said, as it has been decided to ban all new editors from editing certain articles - I think it needs to be abundantly clear to the editors that they are under such a topic ban and why. I think at a minimum edit notices should be required on any page that is considered in scope of this ban. While the decision only says that this ban "may" be enforced, I would never enforce it for any good faith edit - however the sanction appears to support allowing anyone else to enforce it even for good faith editing. — xaosflux Talk 16:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
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Initiated by Sir Joseph at 14:32, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
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I put in an AE against someone but........... but I did have a question for clarification. The most recent decision of the ARBPIA specified that any editor may revert an IP editor or < 500 poster without regard for the content of the post.
1)If the IP is adding correct information, and another editor leaves it in, does it then still get to be reverted, and if it does, does it get to be reverted hours later? For example, an IP editor adds some content, I, or someone else looks at it and realizes it to be a good edit so it's left in. Is it still considered revertable or is it now part of the article? Does it make sense that it can be reverted 5 hours later, even if the article was edited by another editor in the meanwhile?
2)If the IP is adding/removing information and the non-IP is just reverting without looking since IP-IP-IP says we can, what can a non-IP editor do to not run into 1RR rules when he wants to keep that information in?
I understand that someone might not want to get involved, but there are issues when you revert blindly without looking at the content. I've seen it several times already and most recently yesterday/today which is what made me post this clarification request. There certainly has to be a time limit on the IP reversion, or at the very least once another editor has edited the page after the IP editor, then that IP editor's edits should not be considered revertible.
This is a very simple matter. WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 is (though not called) a topic ban. WP:BANREVERT already covers it. If it's not broke don't fix it. It's not broke. -Serialjoepsycho- ( talk) 16:16, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
If the Committee is taking the position, which appears that it may be, that BANREVERT is not applicable in this situation the Committee would be well-advised to be careful not to create or inadvertently or intentionally imply any obligation to restore the reverted material which could cause either the reverting editor, regular maintainers, or other editors to be subject to criticism or sanctions if they fail to do it. That's just another opening for the kind of drama which this restriction and exception to BANREVERT is intended to avoid. (If words such as "should be restored" are used, it should be made clear that "should" in that case means, "it would be a good thing for the encyclopedia if they were restored, but no one is required to do so.") Regards, TransporterMan ( TALK) 17:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
(The extra work involved here is one of the reasons why I think we need to use an edit filter approach that disallows the original edits in the first place, rather than forcing other editors to revert them by hand.) Kirill Lokshin ( talk) 18:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
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Initiated by Jytdog at 00:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
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My user page has had stuff on it about GMOs for a long time. Two sections: User:Jytdog#GMO_stuff and User:Jytdog#Self-initiated_COI_Investigation.
Should I remove one or both of those sections about GMOs from my user page?
I am concerned on the one hand that removing either would be violating the ban since I am editing content about GMOs in Wikipedia; on the other hand I am concerned someone will say that the stuff even being there is a violation and that would be drama.
My judgement would be to remove the first and keep the second, but whatever you say I will do.
Sorry for the bother and also if this inappropriate - I just don't know what to do. Thanks.
(bolding added)When Jytdog says that I edited the article per his wishes he is not being very honest. He was told again and again that the use of the term fair trade was not appropriate and that the problem was in no way connected to including the names of the trade agreements but to the use of the term fair trade. And yet he just ignored any comments related to the use of the term free trade even to including it in the final suggestion he made before threatening to bring it to a dispute resolution process. Jytdog is not dumb. He knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade.
He has opposed all United States free trade agreements since NAFTA, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and the US trade policy under which these agreements were negotiated and signed; he holds that these agreements have benefited large corporations at the expense of American workers and he proposes renegotiating the agreements to better protect American workers.
- this was a gobsmacker. Again you don't seem to know what you are talking about nor have read any of the relevant sources. See this editorial by him headlined: "So-called 'free trade' policies hurt US workers every time we pass them". It is clear as day that Sanders opposes what everyone calls free trade. If your point is that he only uses the term with quotes ("free trade") - well that is is just rhetoric like calling the estate tax a "death tax" and runs dead against WP:COMMONTERM. I have been afraid that this is the source of TFD's opposition to use of the abstract term in the Sanders article - if so, that is really horrific WP editing. But I never went there while I was working on the article, and instead crafted the language above to work around whatever the bizarre opposition was.Sanders has never said that he is opposed to free trade and there is no RS to make that statement.
I do not wish to comment on Jytdog's request but have another question for clarification. Does the topic ban apply to articles about Bernie Sanders?
Sanders is a leading proponent of GMO labelling and opponent of Monsanto [8] which, as a GMO producer, is one of the articles mentioned in the GMO case. Sanders is the only politician mentioned in March Against Monsanto, another article mentioned in the case. The new trade agreement which Sanders opposes, TPP, prohibits GMO labelling. [9]
Jytdog has recently begun editing this article, for example here and [10]. In the latter edit he added, "He has opposed free trade agreements...." [11] He does not mention that Sanders says it is not a free trade agreement and provides a link to the free trade article. He has not edited articles for any other presidential candidates.
This seems to me to be an example of continuing to edit a subject as closely related to GMO as possible, without overtly crossing the line.
TFD ( talk) 21:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
I notice that the enwiki database shows Jytdog made 93 edits to "March Against Monsanto," [12] so I assume he is aware of its contents.
While it has been deleted, Jytdog posted, "My comments have been purely focused on Sanders' stances on trade and competitiveness generally and not on any single sector of the economy. (fwiw as he is doing so well I became curious about his positions on the economy and when I read our article on him, I found it to say little to nothing about anything other than economic inequality." [13] The discussion thread started by Jytdog at the Sanders article begins, "I have been wondering what Sanders has to do say about promoting the competitiveness of the American economy and i have found nothing anywhere (not in Wiki nor without)." [14] It is an odd posting from an experienced editor. Normally one would do a little research first and made or recommend the addition of material. The first editor to reply saw it as soapboxing. [15]
By "discrediting Sanders" I was referring to my earlier reply to Jytdog, "we should not link to free trade, because it implies they are free trade in the way it is normally understood." In the first source you added (PBS), TPP was not referred to as a free trade agreement. [16] Nor was it in the second (Punditfact). [17] And in the source already in the article, written by Sanders, he says, "This is not "free trade."" [18] And I pointed out in the talk page, "I note btw that Sanders says these are not free trade agreements, so saying he has voted against all free trade agreements is injecting your personal interpretation."
TFD ( talk) 23:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Kelapstick:, I agree with AlbinoFerret about the ban "including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics." Sanders introduced the amendment [19] to allow state requirement of GMO labeling. An article in the pro-GMO Genetic Literacy Project (GLP) says, "an example of a politician who still needs to overcome the knee-jerk reflex to be against food biotechnology is Sen. Bernie Sanders. He is chosen here as an example, because his presidential campaign makes him the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs, and because he takes strong positions in favor of science on all issues apart from agricultural biotechnology." [20] The GLP is financed by the Searle Freedom Trust, [21] that supports a number of U.S. conservative thinktanks and organizations that oppose climate change science, state funded health care, etc. The site also says Bernie Sanders (and Hillary Clinton, although here opposition was more recent) oppose the TPP and then says GMO opponents are mistaken in their view that the treaty would prevent GMO labeling. [22] TFD ( talk) 04:46, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Jytdog:, it is not that Sanders' trade policy discredits him, but saying he opposes free trade when he has not said that does. It is synthesis: Sanders says he opposes the TPP etc., another source says they are free trade agreements, therefore Sanders opposes free trade agreements. And the restriction on editing articles "about persons involved in [GMO]" would seem to include "the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs." The reasoning is that discrediting anti-GMO advocates discredits anti-GMO advocacy.
These agreements are btw related to GMO, since they allow the export of U.S. GMO grains, and may protect them against GMO labelling, which the GMO industry opposes. The U.S. Grains Council for example says that tariffs on U.S. corn exports will be eliminated. 9 [23] 0% of U.S. corn in GMO.
TFD ( talk) 15:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Kelapstick:, while I appreciate that Sanders is most notable as a politician, he is also notable for his opposition to GMO or, as the GLP says, he is the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs. That meets the criterion of being involved in these topics. He is mentioned in March Against Monsanto and Farmer Assurance Provision (aka "Monsanto Protection Act"). A Google news search of "Bernie Sanders"+"GMO" gets 26,000 results. [24] Among the first of the articles, "Bernie Sanders promises to protect organic farming and denounces Monsanto", "Sanders, Murkowski vow to block appointment of FDA commissioner over GMO salmon, drug prices", "Can Bernie Sanders act like a progressive on GMOs, overcome tribal allegiances, embrace science?" "Hillary vs. Bernie on Frankenfood", "Bernie Sanders claims CBS canceled interview on rBGH after Monsanto threatened lawsuit", "Bernie Sanders Calls Out Monsanto for Killing His GMO Labeling Amendment."
--kelapstick, but isnt the Locus of the dispute tied to the broadly construed part of the ban? Section 4.2.1 Locus of the dispute says "The dispute centers on pages about genetically modified organisms (GMOs), agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics...." AlbinoFerret 23:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
As far as the hounding goes, I watch this page, not because of one editor, but because I have contributed to a few arbocm cases. Thats likely the reason others have made comments here as well. What brought me to this page this last time was the Mystery Wolff section below and I noticed the GMO section above it. All this talk of hounding is just casting WP:ASPERSIONS. Like there is some kind of anti-Jytdog secret cabal just waiting for the chance. Something that many editors who have or had a section on this page seems to add at one point or another when multiple editors see a problem. AlbinoFerret 18:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Callanecc, --kelapstick, Kirill Lokshin, and Doug Weller part of the findings of the GMO case is section 4.3.6 Jytdog is admonished for their poor civility in relation to the locus of this case. With this edit Jytdog has chosen to disregard that warning. [25] and has focused on Me and not content or issues WP:FOC The comments of "lame" and "sloppy" and criticizing my post to another editor (S Marshall) are very troubling considering the warning he received. That this also happens in a section on topic with that warning raises the concern. AlbinoFerret 18:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
From what I understood, Jytdog's ban should cover articles on companies like Monsanto, not only GMOs. A glance at the Sanders pages for the word GMO is not sufficient in this case.
Jytdog should not be editing pages of strong advocates for or against Monsanto and GE technology. For this reason, Bernie Sanders' articles should be off limits to Jytdog based on his topic ban.
It is well known that Sanders is a huge thorn * in their side. Consider:
Consider too: Bernie on GMOs and the TPP
Jytdog should not be editing content related to trade agreements that have a massive, direct impact on Monsanto, the biotech industry and the spread of GM foods.
Request for clarity
Please Arbs, clarify for us what you meant by "biographical pages about persons involved in these topics". Could you provide examples of people who would fall into this category?
Could one's prominence in media perhaps play a role in this determination? In other words, Sanders is concerned with many issues (not primarily GMOs), but it cannot be said that his position on Monsanto and GMOs is of no consequence, especially given his power as Senator and potential power as POTUS. I see a line of reasoning forming that to qualify under this topic ban, a bio would need to be solely concerned with the subject's position on GM technology, etc. Is this correct?
Sanders is, according to current polls, a few steps from holding what is commonly described as the most powerful position in the world, and because he is the most prominent and outspoken critic of Monsanto in the United States, as well as an advocate for requiring GM foods labeling, and for small, organic farmers, I can't imagine a bio of someone more fit for Section 4.2.1.
This is what he said in early January:
So, you've got Jytdog visiting the Sanders page to make POINTy edits and arguments about Monsanto's biggest U.S. critic, and about a trade deal that would prevent GMO labeling. This is not, in your collective view, a transgression of his topic ban?
First I agree that Bernie Sanders is at least somewhat related to GMO's because of his unique views compared on GMO's relative to other major candidates, to about the same level as GMO's are related to Agent Orange. Jytdog has show prejudice against anyone he labelled "anti-GMO". On the Bernie Sanders page, he is now into a dispute with Gandydancer an editor who I believe left the GMO pages largely because of Jytdog's behavior, where she says, "this has been a very unpleasant experience" diff. Although Gandydancer said she did not think the T-ban should apply here, IMHO seeing responses like this is a further reason the t-ban should apply to his behavior on this article.
I request that ArbCom to consider this editor's history at ArbCom and on Wikipedia in making its ruling and answering this editor's request, such as his overly aggressive behavior at COI that was brought to ArbCom's attention and lead to admonishment by one of the ArbCom members: here (that comment refers to this Statement by Risker and this mass deletion of mall articles over a supposed COI.) I similarly pointed out double-standards in this editor's behavior with regards to COI here at the GMO Arbitration. And now we have a new COI problem for this editor [27], who thought it appropriate to edit the COI guideline when questions were raised about his COI here. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 06:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC) (revised 13:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC))
Some editors have presented some very interesting information above and now I can see why Monsanto would be very eager to discredit Sanders. BTW, I note below it is said, "There is no mention of GMOs in either his article, or his presidential campaign article." Actually there is a section on GMO labeling in his positions article. Gandydancer ( talk) 15:03, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
When Jytdog says that I edited the article per his wishes he is not being very honest. He was told again and again that the use of the term fair trade was not appropriate and that the problem was in no way connected to including the names of the trade agreements but to the use of the term fair trade. And yet he just ignored any comments related to the use of the term free trade even to including it in the final suggestion he made before threatening to bring it to a dispute resolution process. Jytdog is not dumb. He knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade. Gandydancer ( talk) 16:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
This is getting just plain silly. I said "[Jytdog] knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade." He subtracts what he calls a bizarre claim that I made "Sanders is against fair trade" from this and calls it nonsense that nobody ever said, which is of course true, except that nobody ever said it, including me. Let's complicate some more--he says that I deleted and misrepresented him--though I did neither. This is not complicated, it is very simple: The article is about Sanders life and his political accomplishments and opinions. We are abbreviating Sanders's views on trade agreements to just one or a few sentences. Sanders has never said that he is opposed to free trade and there is no RS to make that statement. If we had more space to work with it could be explained that Sanders does not consider the trade deals in question to be "free" and he always refers to them as "so called free" or similar. So its been best, in order to keep things brief, to just say, "Sanders has opposed NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR, and PPT." Not complicated at all. This was brought up repeatedly on the talk page but Jytdog just went doggedly along not hearing it, refusing to discuss it, and now here calling it nonsense. Gandydancer ( talk) 15:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Jytdog: I really do want to clear up the statement where you said, "So yet more misrepresentation of me. (not to mention her bizarre claim that "Sanders is against fair trade" which nobody including me has ever said - in her haste to denigrate me she misrepresented me, wrote nonsense, and deleted my comments." I will gladly accept responsibility but I don't know what I did unless you will tell me. Gandydancer ( talk) 22:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Jytdog: Ah, I see - I used the term "fair trade" three times when I meant "free trade". It is true that the term "fair trade" had not been used on the article talk page by me, or you, or anybody. I spoke at length on free trade on the article talk page and I think that most people would tend to agree that I do seem to be aware of what it means. You may accept that I did follow your difs and try to understand our differences while never noting my mistake, or you can think I'm incompetent, trying to denigrate, etc. At any rate, I apologize for my mistake. Gandydancer ( talk) 15:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Bernie Sanders has spouted anti-GMO bollocks, so that requires care on Jytdog's part. Frankly if I were him I would leave well alone. There are loads of other articles to edit and enough people who are after Jytdog's blood and will spend their lives dragging every marginal call to this board that it's probably better to stay clear in the interests of a quiet life. Guy ( Help!) 17:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
[Univolved as far as I recall.] I haven't dug into the exact nature of the editor's participation and am not comfortable projecting any ideas about whether Jytdog is or should be aware of a Sanders–GMO connection (I have faith that ArbCom is competent to apply a DUCK/SPADE analysis, COMMONSENSE, etc.). I think there's a general risk here, with multiple levels:
I don't raise any of this pro or con the specifics in this case. Frankly, I remain skeptical about the participation on that bio page. But it seems like something to keep an eye on, not something to whip out the noose for.
Regardless of the determination in this case, my point is: Please consider very carefully about this. While ArbCom isn't precedent-bound literally, it's clear that it has leaned more and more toward continuity and consistency between cases in recent years (and I'm pretty sure almost everyone thinks this is a good thing). So, an overbroad approach to this question in this case (even if the result were deserved) could lead to overbroad approaches in later ones, including sanctions that aren't really merited, or just a general chilling effect. Since we use a lot of legal metaphors here, like chilling effect and overbreadth, I suggest that a wiki equivalent of criminal intent needs to be a factor. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
I've been watching this, and I decided to leave this relatively late comment now. I think that the Arbs are getting it right in their replies, so those replies should settle the immediate issues at hand. But I do think that SMcCandlish makes some very good points, that deserve to be reemphasized. I'm seeing a pretty heavy use of aspersions at numerous editors lately, of just the kind of asserting an agenda of editing on behalf of GMO companies, and the editors doing it are getting increasingly clever about wording it in ways that superficially mask the real agenda of casting aspersions. There's one case of it at ANI right now, and it's pretty clear that administrators do not want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. There is a real possibility of ArbCom finding yourselves with something like GMO-2, so I think that you should have that heads-up. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I originally wasn't going to comment here as I was confident arbs would come to the same conclusion they currently did so far in that it's fine as long as a a topic-banned editor isn't editing an article that's about the topic ban subject or an area of tangential articles. That being said, I do want to echo Tryptofish and say that arbs should keep an eye on who's "out for blood" in recent enforcement cases or clarifications. This is probably the biggest stretch of broadly construed so far by those trying to claim this violated the topic ban. One concern is the hounding of multiple editors by AlbinoFerret as Jytdog described above. I haven't decided if it's best to present that evidence at enforcement or if something like that is better handled at GMO-2 as Trypto mentioned, but just a heads up that there's still a lot of things festering that we just didn't have the time, space, or energy to deal with at the first case. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 02:21, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
This crap has gone on long enough. Admins have got to start liberally handing out blocks, bans, or whatever it takes to clean up the GMO cesspit. I have some professional knowledge I'd like to add on the topic (related to the potential for unintended outcrossing by windborne pollen) but don't dare edit the topic because of the utterly toxic atmosphere on anything related to GMOs. Things are only getting worse and the time for half-measures has long passed. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris ( talk) 03:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Excellent troll Jytdog, and I say that as someone who has amused himself early and often trolling self-righteous WP admins and internet "science" activists. Now, I'm off to buy some stock in Monsanto. Cla68 ( talk) 17:48, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I have another clarification request here. Jytdog and I are both under an interaction ban. Jytdog recently closed a discussion in which I was engaged [28] I am not going to pretend this was a flagrant abuse of the IB, but it seems to me that it is an interaction - possibly of the remotest kind. But, after all, the closure means Jytdog is effectively preventing me from making further posts to that thread. Given that discouraging Jytdog from closing discussions in which I am involved is hardly likely to affect his editing in any significant way, I suggest it might be best if this is avoided in the future. Oh, as a very minor side issue, the discussion also contained some GMO content. It could be construed that Jytdog, by closing the discussion and leaving a comment, is commenting on GMO-related posts. All I am asking is whether Jytdog should in the future avoid closing discussions in which I have been involved - I am not asking for any action to be taken.DrChrissy (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Mystery Wolff at 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
1. Regarding the Arbcom outcome. It states:
Enforcement of restrictions: 0) Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.
Clarification is sought on how this works. Specifically in a case where other dispute resolutions options are not used, and an editor brings AE Requests. SHALL the outcome of the first event be no greater than 30 days? If the answer is Yes please state. If the answer is NO, please clarify what the language means.
2. Is the outcome of the Arbcom that all issues with Dispute Resolution needs with first be visited to the for AE requests? That the AE is the only Dispute Resolution option for all pages covered by the Arbcom? If not, what are the expectations of how Dispute Resolution should be handled for pages subject to Discretionary Sanctions?
3. For Appeals of AE decisions premised upon Arbcom (or otherwise) Should Admins who were involved with the original decision be participating in the Appeals process as "judges" i.e. Is the documented Appeals process to be carried out only by Admins who did not participate in the first AE?
4. Who determines if an Administrator is "involved" with editors in the AE. Is there any process. When should the determination of such be made?
5. Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.
Thank you for your Clarifications in advance. Mystery Wolff ( talk) 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@
Thryduulf: Please stop shifting my request for clarification to something it is not. This is not "appeal that appeal to the arbitration committee", or an appeal. Above, I am asking for clarification to process. As the items have not been remarked to, I can not disagree with something that is not there. Please stop personifying and respond to the process questions above or if TLDR for you, allow others to do so. Stop making it about me.
Mystery Wolff (
talk) 09:47, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
In response to Mystery Wolff's followup question, when an appeal is made then uninvolved administrators look at all the information available and decide based on that whether the sanction was appropriate or not. If the blocking administrator does not or cannot (for whatever reason) contribute to the discussion then the other administrators will just not have that information available. They will still be able to examine the logs, the original thread, and all links posted with the appeal and with the original discussion that led to the sanction. If anything, the closing admin not participating is more likely to favour the appealing user as they will not be able to present their case or explain why they chose the action they did that another admin may not have done.
Neither arbcom nor AE is a court and nobody wins or loses based on minor procedural errors - not that there were any in your case. Thryduulf ( talk) 12:03, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
5. Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.
What part of discretionary sanctions allow or suggest: "People who are still coming up the learning curve on Wikipedia should stay away from troubled areas." What are the various tiers of editorship? I was previously of the understanding that there was only locking of articles to where you needed to be verified. How is the learning curve graded, and how are editors graduated through the different levels?
If I may, perhaps the Committee, or some number of Arbs, could instruct one of the clerks to wrap this up neatly with a bow and put it in the archives? Unless, that is, Salvio wants to bask in the healing warmth of the accolades a while longer. BMK ( talk) 19:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Hijiri88 at 05:08, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
In the last eight days Catflap08 has posted two comments related to Wikipedia's coverage of an adherent of Nichiren Buddhism, and attacked another user's contributions to the area as "white washing". [30] [31] Catflap08 and I are both topic-banned from "Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents, broadly construed". The edits he was referring to took place over a month after the TBAN was put in place. [32] [33]
He also explicitly requested that others contact him by email about the topic. This is very suspicious, given his history of violating our mutual IBAN via proxy. If violating the TBAN via proxy was the intent here, it would be a tremendous violation of the spirit of the TBAN, and either of us having a forum that allows us to gather meatpuppets should not be allowed.
Catflap08 says the reason he posted on a noticeboard is because he is "officially banned from articles relating to Nichiren Buddhism" (my emphasis). This seems to imply that his interpretation of the ban is narrower than the wording on WP:TBAN, which says "making edits related to a certain topic area" (my emphasis). The wording of both our bans as placed on WP:RESTRICT when the original case closed is "indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents, broadly construed" (my emphasis). Catflap08 has apparently interpreted the latter quotation as meaning that edits to "pages" that are "not related to" Nichiren Buddhism (including all noticeboards and user talk pages) are not covered by the ban, even if one of us explicitly comments on the topic of "Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents".
Was this the original intent?
If so, the wording should be altered to clarify ("indefinitely banned from all pages relating to Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents, broadly construed; this ban covers articles and their talk pages, but pages in the Wikipedia or User namespaces are exempt").
If not, the wording should still be modified to clarify ("indefinitely banned from making any edits relating to Nichiren Buddhism and its adherents, broadly construed"), and Catflap08 should be either blocked or told off for (repeatedly) violating the ban.
(Because there's a risk someone will bring this up: I neither know nor care what the nature of the edits was. Catflap08 is not allowed comment on the edits on-wiki, and neither am I. I have no strong feelings about Mr. Makiguchi one way or the other. I am not, nor was I ever, trying to "white-wash" anything.)
I am quite unsure if I should laugh or cry …maybe both. I asked this [ [34]] which was moved to EAR and I was told in an email by what seems an admin to either seek the talk page (which due to the ban I refrain from doing) or turn to the Tea House. So asking questions about an edit is a violation of the TBAN???? This gets better every time. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 19:26, 19 February 2016 (UTC) @ Spartaz Just to be on the safe side. I am not into socks … I do wear them though. But do by all means go ahead with the investigation as I myself suspect a sock too. At the same time you may indicate where to turn to when one comes across problematic edits within areas one is banned from. If asking such a question is already a breach of a ban this in some ways censorship.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 20:49, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an obvious TBAN violation and can be dealt with at WP:AE. You do not need clarification for this point and can withdraw this request. IMO Its a clear vio and block worthy. With regard to the edits Catflap08 was referencing, the user making them Haroli43 is obviously someone who has previously edited wikipedia using another identity/account. I have asked for disclosure but since their first edit was to a an area subject to recent arbitration I'm also wondering abusive sock. Spartaz Humbug! 08:35, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Prokaryotes at 05:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Related to this decision. I've asked admin MastCell, here on his talk page to reconsider the topic ban, and here at AN. However, admin MastCell did not reconsider the topic ban and AN was not conclusive. Main issue with the topic ban is that after self reverting 1RR, MastCell noted no further action required, another admin suggested 2 to 7 days ban (before self revert). Additional admin MastCell did not provide difs for his enforcement, the admin explained the topic ban as follows:
QUOTE by admin MastCell:..pattern of disruptive editing on the part of Prokaryotes is clear and continuing. This pattern includes disruptive stonewalling on talkpages, misuse of sourcing guidelines, edit-warring, personal attacks, and so on
The enforcement request was initially filed by editor Tryptofish. A couple of weeks earlier, MastCell made it clear to Tryptofish that he supports him, thus he is not really neutral when getting involved with topic bans related to Tryptofish's request. I ask Arbcom to reconsider MastCell's decision, to undo my topic ban, because he failed to provide evidence for wrongdoing, because according to his own statement, no actions were required after i self reverted the reported 1RR violation, and because based on his own account, he is a supporter of Tryptofish. prokaryotes ( talk) 05:06, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@Rose2LP, good points, also notice Spartaz posted
to my talk page, hours after he closed the AN discussion, after i posted here, ignoring my explanations at AN, and called my actions there "disgusting", then even claimed that editors participating over there are "my flashmob". Seriously, if someone is poisoning the well then it is based in such unreflected comments, totally absent from expecting good faith, ignoring input from the other sides, and continuing a pattern of baseless arguments. Hopefully we can use this request here to focus on the issue at hand.
prokaryotes (
talk) 08:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@JzG, it is unclear why JzG brings up info about an alt account, when he was well aware of it, as well as at least some Arbcom members, and brought to at ANI by JzG, and is unrelated to the current discussion. JzG wrote below, "a currently undisclosed alternate account (actually disclosed briefly on-wiki and then removed by them a few minutes later)" - when in fact it has been discussed at Arb, ANI and elsewhere, with involvement of JzG. In response Rose has removed her previous comment, but there was no reason to do so.
@MastCell, he mentions, "appeal at WP:AN, where there was essentially unanimous support for the topic ban from uninvolved editors and admins", this is simply not true, besides me there are five or six other editors who question the topic ban, Johnuniq, Spartaz, JzG, MastCell, Tryptofish and Kingofaces supporting. I explained at AN why i opened the discussion, because Spartaz participated in the discussion, and because at least at ANI closure is done by editors/admins who did not take part (at least that is my impression). prokaryotes ( talk) 19:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
@Callanecc you wrote " the exercise of administrative discretion (by MastCell) by completely reasonable", can you link to a dif which makes his action completely reasonable? At least you should ask him to provide such difs, some real evidence - then judge in your position as a clerk arbitrator.
prokaryotes (
talk) 01:27, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
prokaryotes (
talk) 01:51, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
@Arbitrator, The main issue is, that discretion has been applied, without evidence (difs), thus arbitrators should ask the enforcer to provide these difs for the claims quoted above. prokaryotes ( talk) 01:58, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
@Drmies, re MC's involvement, here he goes into detail about his job and how he uses GMO related stuff (notice the paper he refers to has been republished), here he chats with Tryptofish, and how he thinks GMOs are safer than conventional foods. Here MastCell endorses Tryptofish for adminship, gives his support, here he made 36 edits to a BLP article of a GMO opponent, adding critical opinion. I don't see an issue with his GMO edits, i see an issue with his close relationship with Tryptofish, who filed the AE, and he made it clear in his comments that he supports T's views. Maybe this is something for ARCA, when missing difs aren't. prokaryotes ( talk) 03:17, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
OMG. prokaryotes ( talk) 03:59, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Punishment Does Not Fit Crime; Edit Warring By Accusers Source of Problem; Double-Standards
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I support this appeal. The punishment did not fit the crime. I am not even convinced that the 1RR violation was a true 1RR violation--if so it was a technicality. The two changes were to the same sentence [37] and [38] with only one intervening edit by me [39] to a different sentence. Hence if the two edits were made at the same time, there would have been no issue. Additionally, the material reverted was edit-warred in here, here and then later here (that was self-reverted here). Aircorn acknowledged his/her mistake and worked with Prokaryotes to get the matter resolved, and the matter should have been dropped. But prokaryotes' accusers never admitted their wrong-doing and insisted on a topic ban. The topic ban was a gross miscarriage of justice when the accusers were equally guilty and never owned up to it and were not even warned. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 09:10, 10 February 2016 (UTC) |
False Claim: "unanimous support for the topic ban"
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Mastcell above says, regarding the "appeal at WP:AN, where there was essentially unanimous support for the topic ban from uninvolved editors and admins." That is clearly not true. There, Kingofaces43 identified " Nyttend, Spartaz, Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, Johnuniq, and Liz" as "appear[ing] unquestionably uninvolved..." [40]. A simple review of the comments of the five identified shows that only Spartaz and Johnuniq clearly supported Mastcell's action and the remaining three took no position: [41], [42], [43]. |
Not "vexatious" litigation
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Above Mastcell says that the accused has filed "vexatious" litigation. |
According to statements below, the accused has the right to these appeals, and I urged that the accused take such action. To call it vexatious is completely inappropriate and prejudicial. |
Plea: Overturn TB -or- Remand
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For all these reason the TB should be overturned and the ruling overturned or remanded ideally to ArbCom. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 19:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC) |
I disagree with Roxy the dog's assertion that the point is now moot, because the accused has voluntarily accepted a 6 month ban. It is not moot because the indefinite TB would extend, if the editor were to come back in 6 months or request reinstatement prior to that. Given that the accused voluntary acceptance of a 6 month Wikipedia ban from ALL articles, I think a just result would be that the TB run concurrently with the 6 month ban, and expire after 6 months.
It makes me sad that the accused's unjust treatment has driven him or her to "wiki-suicide". We really need to look at how badly we are treating our editors, how unpleasant it makes the editing environment to allow ad hominem attacks from some editors but not their victims [44], allowing editors to blatantly lie about content and suffer no consequences [45] [46], and how such unjust treatment and double-standards are driving people away, creating biased POV content and causing us to lose readership [1] from those who recognize the bias in our articles. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 20:54, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
What's ArbCom's opinion on involvement in these processes by a currently undisclosed alternate account (actually disclosed briefly on-wiki and then removed by them a few minutes later) of an editor with outstanding sanctions and a history with one of the parties? And is this considered a valid use of an alternate account? Guy ( Help!) 12:07, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
One of the elephants in the room here is that MastCell only gets involved in Arb Enforcement in relation to health-related science topics and, in that capacity, he only topic bans or sanctions editors who appear to be taking the side against the house POV on that particular topic. It has been alleged that, ( Personal attack removed). If true, is this ok, or like Future Perfect at Sunrise and JzG, is he doing "WP's good work?" Cla68 ( talk) 15:21, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
A few nits:
A plaintive wail:
And (due to an edit conflict) an offended growl:
More:
In the GMO case, my much-reviled Workshop proposals included a recommended site ban for Prokaryotes. I wasn't wrong. ArbCom, you are now seeing the results of your failure to fix the problem the first time. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
To the Arbs who have now seen first-hand what it has felt like during this discussion here: please consider how that has felt while editing content, with the same kinds of argument style on article talk pages. You've gotten some very clear feedback from administrators who have found themselves in the middle of this, and you should keep all of that in mind if and when (really: when) GMO conduct issues come before you again. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:24, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Seeing the discussion about "moot", I think that it would be helpful to make clear exactly what that means, so as not to have any confusion about it in the future. ArbCom declining the request means that the topic ban remains in effect, because ArbCom declined to overrule it. That's all. It does not mean that Prokaryotes gets a get-out-of-jail-for-free card, simply by taking a six-month self-requested block. I hope that, if he should eventually return to editing, Prokaryotes will not be unclear about the fact that the topic ban remains very much in effect. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 23:35, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I simply fail to see what the point of arbitration is when the aftermath of a case leaves an unmanagable situation for admins at AE to try to wade through.
Apparently, I am a bad person for closing a discussion and then reclosing it when a deeply involved party decided that they didn't need to accept the determination of an uninvolved admin that the consensus was to uphold their tban. Then my honesty and integrity are called into question as a simple ploy to downplay the validity of my close and the tban. I get ADMINACC. My record for the 9 years I have been an admin shows that but seriously? There has to be a limit. There has to be a point where the surfeit of pings and messages I should be expected to deal with suggest that the committee was too lenient when they closed a case.
Its no wonder that AE is functionally broken and no admin in their right mind wants to get involved. A process that waits weeks for feedback and comment is unfair on everyone and I'd like to think the committee might get that and spend some time trying to set up a system that actually works.
While you are fixing AE, can I also ask this iteration of the committee to avoid storing up future trouble by being a bit more aggressive in banning people who clearly cannot get along or who have too litigious an approach to fare well here? Can you also make sure you frame your sanctions in a way that is less ambiguous? For example, if you mean a tban say tban and not page ban. Its hard enough at AE without needing telepathy to understand what the committee intended.
As the initiator of this request has now asked for, and received, a site ban (6 months)
here all this is now moot, I think. -
Roxy the dog™
woof 15:50, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
I've changed my thoughts on this, following David Tornheim's comments above, and GorillaWarfare below. Note that PK has not retired, and that a six month 'self-imposed' site ban appears to be a cynical way of avoiding examination of the OP's behaviour, which imho, bears examination. I believe that if ARBCOM were to look at the issue, there would be little reason not to re-enforce the sanction MastCell imposed, sending a clear message, and not just to PK, but to other editors involved in the area of GMOs. - Roxy the dog™ woof 11:44, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
Just to note and thank those who have considered this point, it is appreciated. - Roxy the dog™ woof 11:57, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
MAY I ADD, he added (that's me), y'all REALLY want to be careful here lest admonishments and blocks start flying: no outing, no accusations that cannot be supported, no supporting evidence that even smells like outing. If you have something to say that should be kept private, at least for the time being, keep it private. Email a friendly admin, and/or a reasonable Arb, and let DGG have a look at it. The clerks are in an uproar, the Arbs are scurrying this way and that, and the WMF is quickly retreating into the company sauna in the Big Sur, because this can possibly get out of hand and no one wants to be around when that happens. Let it not get out of hand, please: and you know, dear reader, who I'm talking to. Drmies ( talk) 03:01, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Debresser at 20:44, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Is the topicban for Chesdovi ( talk · contribs) on ARBPIA articles that was decided upon at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive106#Chesdovi still in force?
Then can any of you please explain to me why he created an article like Palestinian wine, which gave rise to much ARBPIA-related controversy? Debresser ( talk) 00:00, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
I see that there was an appeal of a topic-ban-related block in 2012. [49] Though the initial topic ban was for one year [50], it was later changed to indefinite. I checked the user's talk page archives and I don't see any notice of a subsequent appeal of the topic ban, successful or otherwise, though I guess Chesdovi could have removed it. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 22:22, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Chesdovi's most recent edit to Palestinian wine is here. The article itself doesn't seem to contain any allusions to the Israel-Arab conflict, though it does mention kosher wine and Jewish wineries. If there's something in here that violates the topic ban, you could file a complaint at AE and provide diffs to the ARBPIA-related controversy in question. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 00:53, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Hijiri88 at 07:33, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
My TBAN is from the area of "Japanese culture". I have taken this to mean that I am banned from editing or discussing all topics related to "Japan" anywhere on English Wikipedia, but there is a slight grey area, in that I live in Japan and virtually all the sources I have access to are Japanese ones. I assumed that the ban was on the "topic" of Japanese culture, and usage of particular sources and casually mentioning of my editing circumstances while editing in topics completely unrelated to Japan would be acceptable. But it was recently implied that the phrase "pages related to" in the TBANs resulting from this case is not meant to be interpreted narrowly, though.
So I have a few questions:
A little while ago another user explicitly mentioned the Japanese nature of one of my sources, and I wasn't sure what I was allowed say in my response. Should I email users who say these things and explain my situation, and politely ask that they not mention Japan when they are discussing non-Japanese topics with me on a talk page?
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 07:33, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sir Joseph at 13:29, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I was given a one week topic ban from the Bernie Sanders article.I then filed an appeal.during the appeal one admin decided that because I mentioned that I found it troubling and perhaps anti-Semitic that out of 535 members of Congress we focus on the Jew he thinks I should be topic banned for longer. Bishonen claimed in the ban statement that it's not for filling an appeal but it's for a battlefield mentality and to protect the page. Have you seen the page? I'm not the one who is bullying others. And it's still a battleground. I'm not the one using wikilawyering. Go to eb.con and see their article. Their claim that in the future I will be disruptive is not true either. I have been nothing. Look at my history. I've not edited the page until I've reached consensus. I've taken the one week ban but the six month ban is just a bunch of administrators acting inappropriate. I never accused others of being anti-Semitic. I said it is a perception of anti-Semitism when you single out the Jew. Coffee is also making up facts with regards to the timeline. He changed the ban after Spartaz blocked me because coffee had banned me incorrectly. All you have to do is look at the timestamps. So now an admin is lying to cover his tracks, besides covering his bad block. Regardless, discussion about the ban is allowed, it says so right on the ban. So which is it? Are we not allowed to question or are we? I've yet to have one good reason why I am being singled out and banned for six months.
For full clarity, I was the imposing administrator of the original 1 week Arbitration Enforcement topic ban on Sir Joseph (but per WP:UNINVOLVED, in relevance to this extended ban I am uninvovled). That ban was upheld at WP:AE by multiple other administrators, and then closed by EdJohnston with the note that a 6 month ban could be put in place if seen fit. As I noted at WP:AE, after the continuous refusal by Sir Joseph to WP:DROPTHESTICK and his continuous battle ground mentality in dealing with this matter (including the egregious behavior of accusing other editors of being antisemitic, which is what pushed me to ban Sir Joseph from all pages relating to topic, not just the article space - as noted at Sir Joseph's talk page), I felt that my 1 week ban was indeed not enough - as had been noted by several other admins. I felt originally that my action would be enough to deter Sir Joseph from continuing his behavior in relation to that highly visible page, but after watching his reaction that idea went out the window. I now fully support the actions of Bishonen here, in the extension of my original ban, as I think it is the only reasonable way to prevent furthered disruption to the Bernie Sanders article moving forward. That's all I'll comment on this matter at this time, you can see the rest of my earlier comments at the AE appeal, etc. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 15:35, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Please find the OP's PA on the TB-ing admin here – Unless this is a slip of the tongue, being angered over being TBd, quickly removed, I suppose this should come with a sanction, one-week block or something of that order. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:09, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Note: I attempted to discuss this on Sir Joseph's talk page because he is blocked and cannot reply here. I moved my comment here after Sir Joseph removed it from his talk page (which of course he is free to do). [51]
I would like to expand on what I said at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement:
Regarding Sir Joseph's various and sundry accusations of antisemitism towards me, my only interest in the Bernie Sanders page is to bring it into compliance with the consensus at Template talk:Infobox#RfC: Religion in infoboxes and Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 28#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion. I don't particularly like being called antisemetic for attempting to implement the consensus from infobox RfCs. I choose to edit using my real name and that's the sort of false accusation that tends to follow you around.
As my extensive edit history clearly shows, I have no particular interest in religion articles or political articles. Contrast this with Sir Joseph's edit history, which shows that his primary interest is articles related to Jews and Judaism. His recent edits include Western Wall, Zionism, Jerusalem, Katamon, Purim, List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, 2016, Mohamed Hadid, and of course Bernie Sanders, and his first ten edits back in 2005 included Tisha B'Av, Niddah, Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, Rabbi, and Four species. There is nothing wrong with having a primary interest (my primary interest is electronics and software engineering) but there is something wrong with someone who's primary interest is articles related to Jews and Judaism calling me antisemitic when it is an easily-verified fact that I have little or no interest in the subject.
I would also like to comment on Sir Joseph's unsupported assertion "The claim that Bernie Sanders is not Jewish is the one that is dangerous and is a BLP violation." [52] made during his AE topic ban appeal. That comment is indicative of the problem that the other editors on the Sander page are facing when dealing with Sir Joseph. Leaving aside for a moment that it is a bald-faced lie -- not one single editor has ever claimed that Bernie Sanders is not Jewish and Sir Joseph has been told this by at least a dozen editors -- it also shows a determination to Right Great Wrongs by hijacking a discussion that should be about removing his topic ban and turning it into a discussion about Bernie Sanders being a Jew -- itself a violation of the topic ban.
In my opinion, the best interests of the encyclopedia would be served by an indefinite topic ban from all pages relating to Jews of Judaism, broadly construed, with the standard offer that if Sir Joseph shows that he can edit constructively in other areas for six months there is a high probability that a request that the topic ban be lifted will be granted. Material removed by request of uninvolved admin.
[53] --
Guy Macon (
talk) 07:56, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Note: some of the entries in the discretionary sanctions log are under the previous username Yossiea~enwiki. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 19:03, 6 March 2016 (UTC) Refactored 01:04, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Coffee is quote correct that my block of Sir Joseph was a result of my personal failure to realise that the original sanction had been amended. This wasn't clear in the notice so I assumed that what it said at the time of the block was covered why the notice on Sir Joseph's page. It would have been less confusing if Coffee had struck out the original notice and inserted a new one. I voted to extend and confirm the topic ban at AE and the outcome reflects the consensus of admin opinion expressed. On that basis this clarification has no basis. The outcome is not manifestly perverse but there was some poor judgement at times - i.e. why an article block and not talk page? That's just stupid as 95% of AE reported problems have a talk page element.
And that takes me to my real concern. I personally strongly disagree with any admin whose actions are being reviewed at ARCA taking an opportunity to block the appealing editor. This strikes me as very poor judgement - especially when followed by an indef for a legal threat that I personally cannot see. My response to seeing that was real-life head shaking and jaw dropping. There has been some very poor judgement in this case by Coffee and its perfectly understandable that Sir Joseph finds the outcome so hard to accept when the process and decision-making has a hint of half-arsedness about it. I don't think the committee can, in fairness, dismiss this appeal without considering whether Coffee's poor judgement has undermined the credibility of the AE process and whether they have good enough judgement to be working in this area. Spartaz Humbug! 20:16, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
ArbCom should use the current ARCA request, or some other pretext, to put the kibosh on any and all "Is ______ Jewish?" controversies, in info boxes and elsewhere, for a year.
The underlying content issue is complicated. It’s also ancient: passages in Exodus and Deuteronomy are dedicated to it. Whole books have been written on the parable of the four children, which addresses just one aspect of it. In modern times, it was the subject of the Jacob Gordon’s great Konig Lir, it was (alas) extensively litigated by the Nazis, and it's a controversial touchpoint in contemporary Israeli politics, where determining “Who Is A Jew?” determines immigration policy.
No good can come of this topic. In the current political environment, the topic can and will attract kooks and zealots, along with misled teenagers of all ages with a Bright Idea.
The data value of the "religion" field in the info box is marginal to all save the fascist fringe of the American right. No one’s research will be greatly impeded by removing it for the coming months, or by freezing it. I would also suggest that the freeze be proactively extended to questions of who is or is not Chicano, Puertorriqueño, etc.
Simply remove the infobox line for the time being, or freeze them and topic ban the entire project from further discussion for the rest of the year. At the cost of muddying the encyclopedia on these rather narrow matters for a few months, we gain freedom from constant vexatious dispute. More important, we may avoid having one of these vexatious disputes blow up into international headlines, to the projects lasting (and perhaps irretrievable) discredit. MarkBernstein ( talk) 22:02, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I would add that it appears Coffee is a bit too involved if he is blocking based on a statement of informing the ADL. That is not a threat, let alone a legal threat. Coffee needs to withdraw a bit. -- DHeyward ( talk) 22:43, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
@ MarkBernstein: A sound suggestion which, sadly, the rules are going to preclude here. Something needs to be done about this dispute, though, or it's going to end up with arbcom doing something about it in pretty short order. The level of battleground and idht evident in the various RfCs around it is pretty depressing. For a dispute that boils down to the question, "When someone says, 'I am Jewish,' does he mean he has a Jewish mother, he identifies with Jewish culture or he holds to some version of Jewish belief as a religion? And is this worth mentioning in an infobox?" the number of characters spilled into pixels is truly staggering. GoldenRing ( talk) 10:40, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.