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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Abd ( talk) at 21:08, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
original statement, not necessary to read
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I am subject to an "MYOB" sanction, as amended:
It is apparent that ArbComm did not intend to prevent me from normal editing, which can, of course, involve some level of "dispute." The discussion leading up to that ban made it clear: my interventions in disputes was considered disruptive, though this had not been established by specific evidence, so the normal existence of examples helpful in clarifying what was considered "not my business" was absent. However, consistent with the discussion, I interpret "originating party" as referring to being involved in some dispute primarily, as distinct from happening across two or more editors arguing and intervening. There is a present situation would could appear as the latter. However, it was, in fact, the former, I was an involved editor, and would have, for example, been allowed to file an AN/I report myself, presumably. My edits and discussion of the case were not considered violations of the sanction, until I responded to an AN/I report filed by one editor complaining about another, very much about that case. The sanction is not specific to AN/I, and if it prohibited what I did at AN/I, it would also seem to prohibit everything else I was doing. But Sandstein has interpreted the line as being crossed at AN/I, interpreting "originating party" very strictly, in a technical sense, instead of as substance, i.e., as "already involved through legitimate and permitted editing." This interpretation was asserted before, in prior RfAr/Clarification, I questioned it, but this was not addressed by the committee. Hence my request here. In this case, I considered filing this request before posting to AN/I, but I take WP:IAR very seriously, balancing the necessities of the project with the disruption involved in possibly violating a sanction. I judged that an emergency existed, and that serious and permanent damage might be done, were I not to intervene. Confirming and supporting on-wiki harassment of an editor, resulting from rejected off-wiki extortion over WP content, through a block, can damage the reputation of Wikipedia, and I was willing to risk being blocked to prevent or at least warn against this damage. I'm presenting links to the history of this incident in collapse. They are only here as an example of how the sanction might be ambiguous, not to involve ArbComm in a dispute without groundwork being laid. No action other than clarification is requested at this point. Sandstein has issued a "clarification" which means that I'm clearly enjoined from repetition of what triggered the AE report, whether that was a sanction violation or not. However, now, some days later, and with the injunction requiring all abstinence from comment on the situation outside these pages, whether as "originating party" or not, and because disruption, including extensive comment about me and my actions across many pages, from editors who should know better, is continuing, I may have no recourse left but to file an RfAr; the instant situation is being used as a claim (below) that the strict interpretation was necessary to avoid disruption, thus it may be necessary to examine that, and I have no means of doing so outside of an RfAr, otherwise I'd follow ordinary DR over my dispute. That's the result of an over-strict interpretation of the ban. I'll wait a while to see, though. Please understand that I prefer any decision to no decision. No decision leaves me wondering what the hell ArbComm intends. Some seem to believe that it was basically, "Go Away, Abd, this is our project, not yours." Fine. ArbComm can decide that. I agree, even, with half of it. At least I thought it was "our project." comment revised due to shifting situation --20:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC) @SamJohnston: Since he is insisting so strongly here (and elsewhere around the wiki) I'll pull this part out of collapse. I urge it be read by anyone who wants to understand the situation better, though the deeper background remains described and linked in the collapse box. It seems to me that I was arrested and charged with jaywalking while someone was being mugged on the sidewalk. Definitely, I shouldn't jaywalk, in general, especially after being warned, but ... what if I crossed the street to prevent a mugging? And the police came running ... and arrested me as that notorious repeat jaywalker? And the mugged person is also arrested for "disturbing the peace," i.e., yelling and getting blood on the sidewalk? Besides, he was wanted for an unpaid traffic citation. The mugger is thanked for calling attention to these criminals. Okay, dramatic, but perhaps you get my point. AN/I report section on off-wiki harassment:
archived discussion
permanent link, present state There is more response to SamJohnston in the collapse box for responses to involved editors; however, his allegations are not relevant here, which is why the response is in collapse. The issue here is the interpretation of the sanction so that further unintentional violations do not take place, or, alternatively, AE actions are not filed on behavior not prohibited. The current incident is described only as an example where there was, certainly for me, or possibly for others, a difficulty of interpretation, and there have been opinions given by other editors, both ways. I'm not asking ArbComm to decide whether or not I was justified under WP:IAR, because that would not clarify the sanction.
@TenOfAllTrades. I wrote TOAT to consider just what came to light in the AN report discussing his block of LirazSiri, and which led to another admin reversing his action. I describe the mail in the collapse box below.
@Mathsci: WP:RfAr/Abd-William M. Connolley#Mathsci reminded. Whom do you think you are fooling with "Uninvolved Mathsci"? @EnricNaval: Yes. The ad-hoc clarification by admins at AE is legitimate, that is, it is proper for them to make an interpretation and enforce it, and to issue clarification, which ArbComm can accept or change, without any aspersions being cast on them. If they are involved, however, in some way, it might not be proper. That's not the case with Sandstein, I explicitly accepted his neutrality even when I knew that his proposed interpretation was, I believe, incorrect. If ArbComm takes no action here, then his interpretation stands and I'm bound by it. Which probably does mean that I'll stop editing Wikipedia as Abd, and if this is the result that arbitrators desire, they need do nothing. As to the instant case, if ArbComm wants to understand whether the strict interpretation being proposed was actually useful, it would have to look at that case, which could be arranged. I cannot arrange it because Sandstein has required me to avoid comment on that case outside of these pages. I could file an RfAr, though, I assume. Maybe I should, being prevented from acting short of that by the interpretation. If that were considered improper, ArbComm could easily move to site-ban me. But I'd be an "originating party," clearly. However, the present case doesn't define the sanction, and, even if the clarification by Sandstein et al stands, I'd probably have commented anyway, under the strict interpretation, because of IAR, and if a similar situation arises again (rare, I saw truly egregious abuse like I've never seen before, and I've seen a lot), I'd do it again. For better and for worse. I'm still trying to figure out this wiki thing, when lots of editors here, part of a vanishing crew, seem to think they've got it down cold. They don't. It's failing. And lots of present and former editors, administrators, and arbitrators know it. I'm one of the few people actually trying to fix the system instead of imagining that the problem is Bad Editors and can be fixed by banning them. Has that worked? |
Some days ago, while I was still blocked as a response to material in the statement I've now collapsed above, I wrote that I preferred to withdraw the request. If that had been noticed and copied here, it would have perhaps saved a little time by the arbitrators who subsequently commented, but I concluded that the issues on which I needed clarification were complex enough that raising them in this venue was unlikely to be fruitful, hence, for the time being, I am bound to follow an interpretation of the sanction that is quite a bit tighter than I had thought was intended. Please consider the request withdrawn. -- Abd ( talk) 05:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This is related to the open enforcement request at WP:AE#Result concerning Abd. The question asked at some length above is whether my interpretation proposed there of "originating party" in Abd's restriction is correct. I appreciate any guidance by arbitrators on that matter. So as not to complicate matters further, I have asked Abd not to continue his current dispute in any venue before the request for arbitration enforcement is resolved. Sandstein 21:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
This is utterly ridiculous. Abd has been explicitly forbidden from engaging in this behaviour and is just off the back of a three month ban. The fact there is any question whatsoever that the original editing restriction was blatantly and repeatedly violated is incomprehensible to me. This editor deserves to be blocked - for me it's just a question of how long for. -- samj in out 04:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
So far as I am concerned my request for enforcement was improperly closed (at Abd's behest no less) in spite of protests from other users and at least one admin. Thus while that particular avenue may have been exhausted prematurely, the underlying issue remains unresolved. I reserve the right to pursue it through the usual channels pending the official outcome of this request for clarification - both as a victim of his personal attacks and of his incredible ability to sap energy and waste the time of all those who [are forced to] engage with him. I hope and trust the arbitrators will reaffirm and enforce Fut.Perf.'s interpretation, as if this were not the intent, what could it possibly have been?
I too initially believed Abd had agreed "to abide by the meaning of the restriction as explained [...] in an unambiguous and convincing manner" but he didn't even wait half an hour after this was acknowledged before he started off a new thread on his talk page directly disputing it, and kicked off a dispute with User:Future Perfect at Sunrise for good measure. He had also been emailing the editor he had been egging on the whole time (once again involving himself in a third-party dispute even while the enforcement request was being discussed) and continues to undermine the project and cause trouble.
P.S. Warning an active spammer/vandal that you'll nominate their article for deletion at AfD if they don't chill out is not "off-wiki harassment". This is off-wiki harassment. And despite all the usual hand waving, finger pointing, wikilawyering, etc. this clarification is the direct result of Abd turning routine cleanup after a career conflicted editor into a multi-venue, multi-editor dispute. Quoting JzG: "It's not clear this even would be a dispute without Abd's involvement. We have one WP:SPA making blatantly promotional COI edits, and one user making comments about it." -- samj in out 00:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
When Abd had commented at length on WP:ANI concerning TurnKey Linux in a matter where he was not an originating party, I left a reminder there of his editing restrictions without further comment. Other editors, including Enric Naval ( talk · contribs), also commented. At ANI Abd's reaction has been problematic: an attempt to smear us, because we commented in the Abd&WMC case - as if we like him are under some kind of sanction as a result of that case (see above for example). He has written similar remarks about JzG ( talk · contribs). His posts on ANI seemed inflammatory and contrary to the ArbCom editing restrictions. Sandstein interpreted them this way at WP:AE and other users seem to agree there. Stephan Schulz ( talk · contribs) has commented there and also subsequently been described as "involved" by Abd; he has been banned from Abd's talk page. Likewise Future Perfect at Sunrise ( talk · contribs) is now apparently "involved" and "in dispute" with Abd, according to Abd's talk page. Abd's escalation to a request for clarification and aggressive threats to SamJohnston [4] are a repetition of the wikilawyering and time-wasting already witnessed in early January, when the short phrase on mentors was removed. That he is periodically testing the limits of his editing restrictions in this tendentious way is not a good sign at all. Mathsci ( talk) 07:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The aim of the remedy is to keep Abd from wasting the time of everybody involved with his tendency to wikilawyering and his prodigous output, while still allowing him access to WP:DR where it is really necessary. Therefore the exception should be interpreted narrowly, not widely. If he can enter any dispute simply by claiming to be involved, or by claiming that he wanted to file a DR request "soon", the restriction becomes useless. -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 15:56, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I have offered the following clarification to Abd [6], and intend to enforce it as long as Arbcom doesn't provide a different decision:
Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I've just received an email regarding this dispute from Abd, attempting to intervene with me on behalf of LirizSiri (whom I recently blocked for attempted outing and threats to reveal personal information). While this may technically adhere to the terms of his restrictions, Abd is certainly evading their spirit. Frankly, I find Future Perfect's statement above to offer the simplest, clearest interpretation of the intent of Abd's sanctions. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 04:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Observation regarding GoRight. I note that, as has been the pattern since at least Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley (in which these restrictions on Abd's conduct were originally established) GoRight is continuing to argue on Abd's behalf, and continuing to encourage Abd's misguided interest in counterproductively inserting himself into other editors' disputes. While I am unsure of what form such a remedy should take, perhaps it is time to consider an ArbCom resolution along the lines of "GoRight shall refrain from encouraging other editors to be wikilawyering nuisances." TenOfAllTrades( talk) 17:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Addendum: I have also previously, explicitly asked Abd not to email me. It is both telling and troubling that he felt the need to ignore my wishes to avoid off-wiki, off-the-record communcations with him in order to evade his editing restrictions.
TenOfAllTrades(
talk) 02:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Abd is testing the limits again. It's just what he does, like eating or breathing. Thus Arbcom has two choices: (i) you can resign yourselves to dealing with "clarifications" re Abd every few months for as long as he's on the project, or (ii) remove him from the project. It's up to the Arbs how you prefer to spend your time, but experience proves those are your only realistic alternatives. Short Brigade Harvester Boris ( talk) 00:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Fut. Perf. and would endorse enforcement to that effect based on the wording of this restriction. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 09:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The interpretation is inside the discretion given to admins in WP:AE. The goal of the restriction was keeping Abd out of disputes that he doesn't belong to (because he makes a mess out of those disputes). The interpretation is accomplishing this goal. The restriction has shown that it's effective by cutting short this latest dispute. The restriction has shown that it's useful in cutting drama and disruption before it gets out of hand. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 16:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Before the edit that caused this last block, Abd had already tested the boundaries of his voluntary self-limitation. He commented in LirazSiri's page about the advice given to him, after saying that he wouldn't comment more on the dispute. It doesn't look like Abd is taking this seriously.
Abd is also making unwarranted analogies, like comparing himself with a man that is trying to rescue his spouse and children from a fire [8].
Please let admins at WP:AE take care of this and don't allow Abd to escalate this so he can grandstand about how he is being prevented from saving wikipedia from itself. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
After FP posted his clarification on Abd's talk page, I took the opportunity to (hopefully obviously) play the role of devil's advocate with respect to this excessive focus on the word originating. To that end I posted a comment which took that focus to it's logical interpretation:
FP then responded with a rather predictable stance:
At which point I was forced to again point out the logical fallacies in FP's thinking:
Interestingly, with this post you now seem to be arguing Abd's point for him. If A, B, and C are all arguing about some particular issue and A files a DR action against B but explicitly excludes C how can you argue that C has NOT played an "originating role that triggered the DR process"? On what basis are you claiming that B is an originating party but C is not? Again, your original position stated above makes no logical sense. Either my interpretation as stated above is what was meant, which is clearly absurd and should be corrected, or I guess you are now in agreement with Abd's view and so he was correct all along. In either case your original interpretation is logically flawed. -- GoRight ( talk) 15:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)" Note: minor formatting changes have been applied.
In the end, while FP's interpretation may be convenient for himself and Abd's detractors in general, it makes literally no logical sense at all. At this point I would actually just observe that this sanction is causing significant disruption in its own right given that it (a) isn't clear what it actually means, and (b) isn't clear what it is actually trying to address. Given the level of disruption occurring here it may make more sense to either remove the sanction entirely or restructure it to address a specific identified behavior and word it in a clear and enforceable manner.
Lacking any such substantive changes I fear that we will find ourselves in a never ending cycle of discussion over the whole thing as Abd's detractors come up with even more inventive ways to misinterpret and misapply this ill-defined and perhaps ill-conceived sanction. -- GoRight ( talk) 17:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
At some point in the above sequence of events FP had
added more clarifications to Abd's talk page:
I then pointed out the logical flaws in this set of interpretations as well:
I can only assume, and please correct me if I am wrong, that the sanction was never intended to bar Abd from taking proper steps to protect the project from harm when he saw such harm actively occuring but this appears to be exactly what FP is asserting. If a vandal reinserts his garbage into an article after some other editor had previously reverted it, is it the intent of this sanction to actually bar Abd from confronting the vandal who is now in a dispute with another editor? The lengths to which this sanction can be misapplied are endless and disruptive to the project. -- GoRight ( talk) 17:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Question for TOAT: What part of my statement above appears to be encouraging Abd to do anything at all? Please point me to the specific portions that make such encouragement so that I can correct them forthwith. It is not my intention to encourage any editor to take any particular action, other than to encourage Arbcom to pro-actively eliminate or restructure the sanction in question so as to clarify its intent and to render it more directly enforceable than it is in its current incarnation. It is my belief that doing so will minimize disruption on this issue moving forward.
Let me be clear and direct: I encourage Abd to continue to take his sanctions seriously and to continue to endeavor to adhere to them to the best of his ability given his best understanding thereof. -- GoRight ( talk) 20:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
FP's current block of Abd: I have opened an AN report here. -- GoRight ( talk) 23:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Unsigned edits in sections written by others: I note the following [9] which was placed in a section written by Abd but was unsigned which makes it appear as though Abd wrote it. Perhaps the author or a clerk could move this comment into the author's own section to avoid confusion on this point? Thanks. -- GoRight ( talk) 16:48, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's possible to clarify things any further with Mr. Abd, whether his obliviousness is innocent or deliberate, the end result is the same. He seems to have confused WP:IAR with WP:IGNOREALLSANCTIONS, which is mysteriously red-linked. And so we move on to the passive-aggressive threats of sockpuppeting (see the "@EnricNavel" section of Abd's most recent missive). I can only speak for myself, but I know I'm shivering in my boots - well done, Abd. "If I decide your sanctions are unfair, I'll totally start socking to get around them, and then what will you do? *swivels black leather chair to survey cityscape with a smirk, silently petting largely disinterested snow-white pussycat*". What a valuable, mature, level-headed contributor to our online encyclopedia! Badger Drink ( talk) 06:40, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
The tumbleweed seems to be blowing through the arbitrators# section. Does this mean:-
Thank you for your consideration. Spartaz Humbug! 17:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Abd's statement above is over 3,000 words. A bit of brevity would go a long way here. Guy ( Help!) 19:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by ~
R.
T.
G at 17:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Note:This request is about the Wikiproject Ireland Collaboration and, perhaps, how to move the naming debate out of it without discussing naming at all!
A discussion has arisen on the project about renaming it as Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Naming Debate. The collaboration project was created at the instruction of ARBCOM. Judging the front page of the project, its description of inspiration and goals, a major intention was to provide a collaboration area for loyalist/unionist and republican/nationalist to collaborate and consider disputes. Please clarify this. Is it the WikiProject Ireland Naming Debate or is it the collaboration project intended to concile culturally opposed editors as may be presumed by the projects front page?
The Naming Debates have overshadowed the collaboration project. Nothing else appears to exist on the projects discussion and these naming debates are impossibly long. They also concern editors mainly of republican/nationalist persuasions excepting for some contributions from neutral editors. The Naming Debates were a runaway train long before the collaboration project was created. As such a debate chokes the life out of all else on a project page, should such debates be moved prerequisite to a sub-project such as the now suggested Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Naming Debate only to provide notifications to the parent project detailing progression or events (such as voting) to prevent overshadowing other issues?
The Naming Debates, as per normal dispute progression, have not produced a collection of evidence outside of signed statements to ARBCOM and talk page threads, signed statements and conversational viewpoints. Should editors in a runaway train dispute be requested in good faith to produce a collaborative collection of verifiable evidence without signatures or conversational viewpoints? Would such a page of evidence spread a little grease on the path of neutral evaluation? Neutral editors have shown up often to the Naming Debates but rarely managed their intended contribution. Also, editors making signed statements have an invitation to be as convincing and therefore cunning as they see fit. Would an unsigned collection of consolidated and verified evidence be preferential in a dispute put to the wider community for evaluation, even if it were divided into sections preferable to particular disputees collective persuasions?
Please, tell me where you get lost and I will explain. I do not have a second level education to speak of.
Please consider my request on the talk page to use context definitions in the clarification request heading.
Thanks, ~ R. T. G 17:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
What about producing collaborating evidence, Ireland naming debates or other disputes, is it preferable to Arbcom? Would you consider at least requesting it of disputes? Without discarding the podium (everybody making signed statements or signed talk page comments), can there not be an alternative method whereby disputing parties gather together evidence much like a regular article detailing the whys and whats of disputed content? Is that not a good idea even if it were never taken advantage of? I think that it would be taken advantage of if Arbcom regularly suggested it. For the purpose of initiating collaboration between content diputees with cultural differences, it would be like requesting an Ireland collaboration project except with less scope for verbal dihorrea in the findings and more prominence for facts which are found to be mistaken or misleading. Every project has a front page with information, so should every dispute which merits the attention of Arbcom. Disputees will often refuse to participate in such a way but where then do neutral editors come in? Right there. They run the show. It doesn't seem as busy on Arbcom as a year or more ago but I am sure you still have some pile-ups in the works. I would like very much to see a non-statement oriented page of evidence coming from the Ireland naming case, purely for adequate reference purposes. They certainly wont do it now, but maybe if a long time ago Arbcom had suggested it to them... ~ R. T. G 14:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
To clarify,
Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration was not created at the instruction of ArbCom, or as a consequence of the Ireland article names case. It was created by
Gnevin on
31 October 2008 to - believe it or not - improve collaboration. The Ireland naming disdcussion moved there on
4 February 2009. --
Scolaire (
talk) 19:57, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Since the originator has never clarified his request, and as he seems to have lost interest – not only in this request, but in the whole Ireland Collaboration/Ireland naming project – I think ArbCom should close this ASAP. --
Scolaire (
talk) 17:33, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Asdfg 12345 at 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Sandstein said he banned me from editing Falun Gong articles for three reasons: “edit-warring (less aggressively than some of his opponents, but still), single purpose account (editing only FG topics) and advocacy (editing only to present FG more favorably)”
I will respond to these points with explanation and diffs.
1: On the edit warring charge.
I have had a policy of 1RR for a long time now. I think the only time I broke it was shown in the complaint against me; I crossed 1RR a couple of times then. That was under the circumstance that the other editor had ignored a consensus, derived from an RfC, which supported what I had suggested from the beginning. I felt justified, but in hindsight would be more careful. I’m not aware of any other edit warring on my part—none was presented in the original AE—and it is my intention to maintain the 1RR policy and not revert at all when it can be avoided. I try to always discuss things cogently and civilly. I do not edit war, do not intend to edit war, and know edit warring is bad.
2: On the single purpose account charge.
Since being banned I have taken a broader interest in other topics related to Chinese politics and governance. Whether I edit Falun Gong articles or not, I will continue to edit other articles unrelated to Falun Gong.
I note that the page on SPAs is not a policy item, but an essay. Of course, Wikipedia is not for advocacy, and advocates coming to push their POVs should be shown the door. I am here to help build this encyclopedia on the topics that I know about and that interest me, not as an advocate of an outside cause. I know the rules and play by them, and I want to build professional articles on the subjects I edit. (Though I’ve also been accused of “wikilawyering” when citing policy or providing sources to support my views.)
3: On the advocacy charge.
I do not and have not edited only to present Falun Gong more favourably. Most of my ideas for improvement, and many of my edits, are not structured along the lines of favourable/unfavourable, which I think is most often an unproductive dichotomy for categorising edits or editors. That said, it may appear that many of my edits make Falun Gong look favourable because a lot of the information which paints Falun Gong in an unfavourable light, whether reliably sourced or not, or in accord with due weight or not, is already in the articles, or has already been added by other editors. Making Falun Gong look favourable is not my purpose for editing Wikipedia, and I of course know the job of Wikipedia isn’t to paint Falun Gong in a favourable light—I don’t support including material just because it is perceived favourable to Falun Gong, and excluding material just because it is perceived as unfavourable. Making this accusation has become a common way of deflecting attention from the issues at hand onto the individual raising the problem.
Here is a small collection of edits meant to counter the idea that I’m editing Wikipedia to promote a pro-Falun Gong point of view:
Final remarks
Those are just some examples. I wrote a
long response to the arguments presented by Enric Naval that attempted to show that I am a tendentious editor who lavishes praise on Falun Gong and deletes anything perceived negative. Most of the complaint and belated response is straightforward, I think, except the second complaint. That is more complex. The quickest way to sum it up, though, is to see the
two
RfCs I started, and note that the opinion of the uninvolved party was exactly what I had been saying. There was a second RfC because Simonm223
ignored the first.
When writing this, I made a choice to say little about the editing dynamics on the pages, the issues surrounding Falun Gong and how they may relate to Wikipedia, perceived biases on the part of some editors, which usually dominate discussion on this subject. Based on some of the unwelcoming remarks to newcomers though, I think the environment will have to improve to avoid further litigation.
I think my being banned was a mistake, and I hope above to have shown why. I have learned from the experience, and will continue to cultivate a more nuanced approach to editing Wikipedia, including doing better with research, and editing a wider variety of articles. I feel like I have gotten some perspective in this month, thought about the issues, and so decided to request an amendment. Please advise if further evidence would be helpful in deciding my case. Thank you for your time.
Respectfully, -- Asdfg 12345 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Some thoughtful remarks on the subject from an outside editor: [10] [11]
I wish I could understand how this was a reasonable use of admin discretion, given the evidence above, and lack of evidence for the opposing views which were the reasons for the ban. I find it extremely confusing that arbitrators think my case is not only "comfortably within the reach of enforcement discretion" but that the "decision appears reasonable" as well. And there is no way to actually determine whether they have evaluated the case on its own merits or not; they fail to comment on the evidence or elaborate on the rationale of the case.
Sandstein's rationale for banning me makes three claims that are provable/disprovable. They are specific claims, the truth value of which can be evaluated objectively. I was said to have edit warred, but the only evidence for that is breaking one revert of the same content within 24 hours, after having sought a third party opinion that was ignored; I was said to only edit Falun Gong articles, something that is allowed, but my contributions indicate otherwise anyway; I was said to have edited only to make Falun Gong look favourable, but a string of diffs above also indicate that this is not the case. At the moment the process is slightly bewildering, and it's completely unclear as to what, precisely, I have done wrong. I have been given no ideas about how I'm supposed to "improve my editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines," since no specific problems have been pointed out. If the arguments were a bit more slippery, it would be easier to justify them. For example, that I'm an inveterate Falun Gong apologist no matter what I do or say, editing other articles is just covering my tracks, and the times when I edit against Falun Gong, that's also to cover my tracks. Then I would be a class enemy. In that case, I wouldn't have much to say; it would be an impenetrable argument. But they are three quite specific claims, and I believe I have shown how they are untrue above. At the moment it just seems like I'm being treated as a class enemy without that being openly stated.
I suppose this format is very limited for being able to understand the processing of all the information that I presume is going on in people's brains.
My other concern, though, is that the major procedural flaw in how this case was decided still appears to have been overlooked: I was not "given a warning" before sanctions were imposed. The page outlining discretionary sanctions mentions this twice. Whatever the merits of the decision, I do not understand how sanctions which didn't follow the rules of how they were meant to be applied can be upheld.
I could not think of a more effective process for making someone get a sense that their rights had been tossed aside and due process ignored. If we want to carry the working logic forward, given that I am such a bad egg who would not even benefit from a clear explanation of how they can improve before being banned, or precisely what they have done wrong, or even deserve to be accorded due process, why not just ban me from Falun Gong articles forever? Why would six months make any difference? And why should I be able to edit the talk pages? At least then there would be some consistency in the autocracy. Whatever the decision, to whoever can give a clear, reasoned, response as to how Sandstein's three arguments are still valid in light of my response, and answer my complaints about due process, I would be grateful.-- Asdfg 12345 03:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I won't apply for any kind of community appeal, and I'm sorry to have wasted your time, my time, and the time of other editors and admins. I saw an exchange between Shell Kinney and Olaf Stephanos which makes the situation very clear. I had thought that the policies were like a book of law that you just had to stick to and keep within. But it's actually much more about perceptions, social capital, and branding. And nonconformists may have extraordinary measures applied to them. Never mind when propaganda comes from editors who are integrated into Wikipedia, and "outsiders" wish to fix things and explicitly follow all relevant rules when doing so. If you are seen as an advocate, especially for a perceived NRM (but not for science) you are not welcome. It doesn't matter if you are reasonable and law-abiding or not. This is probably just a necessary evil and compromise given Wikipedia's openness and potential for real bad guys to exploit the system. I maintain that I am not one of the bad guys, have kept strictly within policy, and have only ever wished for a professional treatment of Falun Gong. I have been polite nearly all the time, and frequently compromised, shared ideas, and worked with whoever was interested to build the pages. I do not want to see a whitewashing or exclusion of criticism. But doing Wikipedia properly means no propaganda, stringent sourcing, and inclusion of every significant perspective. All that is explicitly within Wikipedia's policies. I am not sure who will have the mettle to challenge the editors dedicated to promoting a negative view of Falun Gong - and their sympathisers - who are seen as part of the community. The silent consent to these ideologically motivated activities allows a page to go from this (11,200 words) to this (2,500 words).-- Asdfg 12345 23:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether, in view of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Appeal, this is the right venue for an appeal of a discretionary sanction, but if arbitrators would like my opinion about this request, I'll give it. Sandstein 06:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
This request belongs to WP:AE.
The content disputes belong to the talk pages of articles (and, for the record, I will reply much better to requests about content that are not filled with bad faith assumptions cannot be easily interpreted
[12] as being full of bad faith assumptions about how I'm trying to smear Falun Gong for some unspecified reason). --
Enric Naval (
talk) 22:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I will give my brief comment. Asdfg12345 has worked constructively on the Falun Gong articles for several years. He has always been polite towards other editors, and has taken a methodical approach to NPOV, ensuring that no relevant point of view is left out and that sources are given fair treatment. His insistence on high-quality sources has been categorical, and he has repeatedly made use of peer-reviewed journals and other reputable academic publications.
I am afraid that the involved administrators do not fully understand the delicate balance of the overall situation. The neutrality of the Falun Gong articles has seriously degraded after Asdfg12345 was blocked. As many of us have observed, this is not a simple matter of "neutral-minded" editors seeking to honestly work towards an article that gives fair and due weight to all relevant viewpoints—and who follow neutrality as methodology—against "biased" SPAs who only work to "promote their cause". Indeed, practically none of the editors who have been involved with the Falun Gong articles has taken a totally cool, dispassionate approach to the subject matter. This is partly due to the editing environment and its long-standing disputes that have never been resolved properly, in spite of numerous attempts. Yet, among the group of editors who have been involved with the Falun Gong articles over the last few years, Asdfg12345's track record is among the very cleanest. He has proactively initiated rational and argumentative discussion, and I feel that this may be one reason why some would rather see him blocked. Asdfg12345 has kept up the true spirit of Wikipedia against those who have a preconceived notion of how the Falun Gong articles should read, and who fail to regard the true depth of high-ranking research out there. Moreover, there are always those who'd rather cut the corners than engage in real discussion.
My opinion is that the Arbitration Committee, or other Wikipedia officials in positions of comparable power, should put in the effort to investigate the situation from a pragmatic perspective. I would argue that Asdfg12345's case is too susceptible to an individual administrator's impression of the subject matter as such; in other words, I strongly feel that the case has not been evaluated on its own merits. The produced evidence does not warrant a block, and a six month topic ban is simply inconceivable. Just take a look at Asdfg12345's edit history: it can only prove that he is here to truly construct an encyclopedia. Even though his focus has been on the Falun Gong articles and related subjects in the past, his contributions have been extremely solid, balanced, well-sourced, and transparent. He is a real expert, and these articles and their informed readers sorely miss him. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 14:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
Having previously involved in the diting of Falun Gong related articles I was acquainted with User:asdfg and his/her editing style. User:asdfg is very polite and forthcoming and never stoops to civilty violations or other kinds of overtly abusive or disruptive behaviour. However, I think there is every reason to maintain the ban on the reason of asdfg's being a clear instance of a Single Purpose Account - of the most tenacious variety. I arrived at Falun Gong with out any preconceived notions (except an interest in presenting the issue in a academically adequate manner from the POV of a sociologist of religion (if anything I was prepared to possibly have to defend the viewpoint of Falun Gong as minority religion as these are often prone to attacks from "anti-cult editors")) - I was soon so completely exhausted by the constant pressure and civil disruption (in the form of disregard for consensus, continued argument over issues already determined by consensus and different kinds of vexatious litigation (in the form of rfc's, etc.)) from asdfg and other openly pro-Falun Gong editors that I decided that continuing work on that article was not worth the costs to my mental health - I know that several other editors have had similar experiences. I believe that topic banning asdfg from Falun Gong related articles is the right way to protect wikipedias integrity and the mental health of its neutral-minded editors. In short, I believe that no amendment to this arbitration decision is required or warranted ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nefer Tweety ( talk) at 13:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Nefer Tweety filed this complaint at the enforcement page, my and other peoples reply's to these false allegations can be read there, no violation against anything was found, and it was closed. [13]
There has been no meatpuppet invitation, it was a misunderstanding. A neutral (Egyptian) editor had seen the arguing between me and AC and left this post at my talkpage when I first requested the arbitration. He tried to help and fix the dispute so that was why I contacted him and asked for his help. So I asked this neutral (Egyptian) editor to get involved and told him that it was totally up to him what he wanted to do, and I was misunderstood by the admin, and I have already been blocked for that edit, almost 2 months ago: [14]
At the Omar Sharif article, What have I done? While the Nefer Tweety account edit warred with numerous editors removing sourced info: 1 2 3 4 5 times.
And carrying out Arab Cowboys sockpuppets edits at several articles, for example: [15] [16] [17] Look at this and compare: [18] 30 edits in between, made by several editors and bots, but he doesn't care.
I have added sources to the Sharif talkpage:
[19] Since that, several editors have expressed support for those sources and themselves added his Lebanese background to the article, Users Funkmonk
[20], Leabnese Bebe
[21], Lanternix
[22] and Nableezy
[23]. I have not told them to do anything. Am I supposed to get a harder restriction on me for adding sources to a talkpage? Have I violated my topic ban and restriction? or the principles of the case?
--
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk) 18:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Note: The Nefer Tweety account had yesterday filed yet another enforcement request and he received a warning for it and it was immediately closed, he has also been blocked by an admin yesterday for carrying out Arab Cowboys sockpuppet edits. [24] -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 18:03, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by El on ka at 07:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
#
Remedy 1: "PHG (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to medieval or ancient history for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion."
Remedy 2: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG#PHG's topic ban is narrowed and extended: "The original topic ban on editing articles related to medieval or ancient history is hereby rescinded. PHG (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, and Hellenistic India—all broadly defined. This topic ban will last for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion."
The original topic ban was on PHG ( talk · contribs), a user who has since changed his name to Per Honor et Gloria ( talk · contribs). His original topic ban, placed in March 2008, prevented him from making any edits in the entire topic area of medieval or ancient history for one year. This ban was extended in April 2008 to also require that PHG use only English-language sources, and use a mentor ( Angusmclellan) to assist with sourcing. Further problems were reported in July 2008. [25] See Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance for a long list of statements from established editors who were expressing concerns about PHG's use of sources. PHG has two specific POVs that he's been pushing, for over two years now: (1) That the Mongols "conquered" Jerusalem in 1300, and (2) that there was an alliance between the Europeans and the Mongols. Actual mainstream history, is that Jerusalem may have been subject to a Mongol raid at one point, but was not conquered; and that though there were attempts towards alliance, the attempts were unsuccessful. The Arbitration Committee investigated PHG's behavior in 2007/2008, agreed that PHG was misusing sources, and banned him from the medieval history topic area for a year.
Officially, the topic ban expired in 2009, but now that the
Franco-Mongol alliance article is up for
a Good Article Nomination, In December 2008, PHG filed a new case, requesting that his topic ban be lifted. The result was that the topic ban was narrowed to just articles related to the Crusades and the Mongol Empire, but was extended for another year. This latter topic ban expired on February 2, 2010, and PHG (Per Honor et Gloria) has resurfaced, and is resuming old tactics: Cherry-picking sources, pushing the same old POVs, and attempting to restore the article to the kinds of things it said back in 2007 that led to the ArbCom case in the first place.
[26] Of particular concern is that he is de-railing the GA nom,
[27]
[28] by dragging back up his "there was an alliance" POV, insisting that the lead sentence of the article be re-written to say that there was an alliance. This is making GA review extremely complex, as we don't want to have to re-debate this entire thing over again.
One of the things that makes PHG's POV-pushing so damaging, is that he (usually) tends to stay very civil, and his edits always look well-sourced. However, when experienced editors go in and actually look at the information he's trying to add, it becomes clear that PHG is not fairly representing what the sources say, and that he's also pulling in questionable sources, such as fragments of statements from works that are centuries-old, [29] or fragments from footnotes of books that are from long out-of-date historians, or works that are of unclear provenance. [30] Repeated requests to PHG to desist have been made at the article talkpage, and at his user talkpage, by both myself (Elonka), [31] [32] and PHG's mentor, Angusmclellan ( talk · contribs). [33] PHG promised Angus in email that the problems were over, but then continued with disruptive actions, [34] which are escalating at the GA nom. [35] I did file a request at WP:AE to see if the ban extension could be handled by community consensus, but the thread was closed as non-actionable, [36] so I am bringing it here, and asking that the topic ban be reinstated for at least another year. Thanks, -- El on ka 07:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
(one month followup) Despite repeated reminders for over a month, PHG's mentor, Angus McLellan, has not yet posted a statement to this amendment, despite his placeholder below.
As I (Elonka) am one of the primary editors dealing with PHG in this topic area, I have to admit to some frustration. Though PHG's POV-pushing on matters related to the Mongols is glaringly obvious to those who are familiar with the topic, I understand that to those not familiar with the subject matter, the situation may be somewhat confusing. I've been trying to find examples which make the situation more clear. For example, at Talk:Fall of Ruad#Map of 1300 operations there is a discussion about images. What is clear to me, is that PHG is attempting to use this article as an opportunity to insert an image, created by himself, which includes an arrow showing Mongol troop movements towards Jerusalem (even though Jerusalem isn't a key element of the article). This is part of a pattern of PHG-created images which show both this Jerusalem arrow, and apparent Mongol advances as far south as Gaza (see image at right). However, there was no armed clash at Gaza, the Jerusalem arrow is giving clear undue weight to the idea of a Mongol raid there (they raided several cities in Palestine for a period of a few months). A further POV problem with the image is that PHG focuses strictly on the troop movements of the Crusaders and the Mongols, but never shows the alternate view, of what the Egyptian Mamluks were doing as they advanced from the south and engaged (and defeated) the Mongols. PHG is all about the Mongol advance "towards Jerusalem", and not about the overall context, or what was going on with the other side of the engagement.As far as what I think ArbCom should do at this point, it's pretty simple: Please extend PHG's topic ban on Crusades and Mongol articles, preferably indefinitely. If PHG wishes to participate on these articles, he can make suggestions on talkpages. The ArbCom may also wish to consider appointing a more engaged mentor, since Angus appears to have limited time to deal with PHG. -- El on ka 16:56, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Nice trap! Elonka threatens me of Arbcom prosecution a few days ago [45] telling me "Do not edit it, do not participate at the talkpage, do not participate at the GA nom" at the Franco-Mongol alliance page, in itself a rather unethical threat (is an Administrator permitted to effectively impose an article ban through personal threat, especially when deeply involved?)... Then she nicely invites me to respond to her on that very page [46], I am stupid enough to answer to the invitation [47], and now she uses that as a justification to implement her initial threat. Isn't this wonderful?
Altogether, I must have done about 20 edits to the Franco-Mongol page and its Talk Page in the last two weeks or so. I have been taking pains to make extremely well-sourced statements with mainstream academic online references so that all I write can be checked by anybody. No disputes, respecting the content of other contributors: Wikipedia editing at its best [48] [49] [50]. But no, Elonka seems to resent the very fact that I simply contribute, however professionally, to the Franco-Mongol alliance page, an article I created two years ago.
Elonka has been forcing her point of view on the relationships between the Franks and the Mongols in the 13th century, attacking the main contributor on the subject (me) if my views did not fit hers.
Most significantly, she has attacked me strenuously for two years for claiming that the Mongols were in Jerusalem in 1300. Elonka's problem now is that User:Srnec painstakingly studied the sources himself and strongly challenged her former interpretation, declaring that "the modern, reliable sources say unequivocally that the Mongols were in Jerusalem" [55] and that it can be said that they "took" and "held" the city [56]. It turns out that the raid of 10,000 to 20,000 Mongols resulted in huge depredations reported in detail by Muslim sources [57]. The historian Andrew Jotischki confirms that in 1300 "after a brief and largely symbolic occupation of Jerusalem, Ghazan returned to Persia" ( Jotischki p.249). Elonka herself has been forced to change her writing to the Mongols "probably" raided Jerusalem in 1300! [58]. She even had to apologize finally [59]. After pursuing me so harshly for so long for writing about the Mongols and Jerusalem in 1300, this is quite a change isn’t it? In light of her misrepresentations of historical facts, which she used to obtain a ruling against me, I think Elonka could become a little more humble in her views on history, but, no, all she can find is sending me here. The problem I believe is that Elonka makes very strong statements, and pursues other users harshly based on factually wrong premises. Just as she misrepresented facts for Jerusalem, there are many more instances where she takes such a stance, and you have to follow it, or else.
The Arbcom has formally determined that I could resume normal editing now, so, my intention is indeed to resume normal editing (see an example with Ruad expedition). I think if Elonka has issues with some of my contributions, she should just raise the issues, discuss them specifically, and resolve them according to Wikipedia rules, rather than make a rethoretical attack as above.
I think our responsibility as Wikipedians is to follow the sources punctiliously (I've become much better at that, and I'm now making sure all my contributions can be checked online whenever possible), and to make sure that power-hungry or drama-hungry individuals do not skew the facts too much. Best regards to all, and happy editing! Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 07:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I would like to propose that the present attempt to reopen this case without any clear ground to do so is simply an attempt to use the system and the threat of Arbcom prosecution as a tool to restrict my editorial rights, inspite of the formal end of my topic ban and the quality of my contributions [105]. I guess this is what is generally called "gaming the system" and "disruption" on Wikipedia. For example, the "POV" accusations about creating the Ruad expedition article have finally boiled down to a discussion about finding the most adequate title [106]. The "COATRACK" accusations about creating the article Timurid relations with Europe are finally receiving no significant support [107]. Then, Elonka's 4th motion [108] to change the article name at Franco-Mongol alliance seems like a rehashing of old discussions, inspite of the fact that this has been resolved three times in the past: 1: Request for move, 2: Poll for renaming the article, 3: Article title, seemingly a rather examplary case of disruption. As support is not forthcoming, e-mail canvassing is probably going to be called to the rescue now. These series of actions seem to me to boil down to undue maneuvering, demonstrably false accusations, and the incessant repetition of rather strident personal attacks, and only result in disrupting the system, losing everybody's time and good humour, damaging editor motivation, and giving a poor image of Wikipedia. I suggest this case be dismissed and that such behaviour be warned against. Best regards. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 00:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Elonka's 4th motion in 2 years to change the title of the Franco-Mongol alliance article has again been rejected by the community [109], as I think should be this request for amendment. Please let there be some justice on Wikipedia. Best regards to all. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 03:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Let me quote (and provide a readable link to) Jotishcky Crusading and the Crusader States p.239, whom I believe admirably summarizes the facts of the Franco-Mongol alliance. Claiming that there were only "attempts at an alliance" is misleading and a contradiction of historical facts. The alliance, or a succession of alliances (that is, agreements to achieve a common goal) indeed took place, but the results were without dispute very little (a few combined operations and a few coordinated strategic movements):
"In 1262 Hulagu, the Mongol leader of the Near East, offered an alliance to Louis IX. An uneasy series of temporary alliances with the Mongols followed in the second half of the 13th century, but it was always an unequal relationship, and nothing substantial came out of them" Jotishcky Crusading and the Crusader States p.239
Best regards to all, and so much for the encyclopedic respect of historical facts. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 18:04, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
For those who seem to think that the alliance between the Franks and the Mongols is a pet theory, please just check the following quotes by major historians: Andrew Jotischki in Crusading and the Crusader States, who describes a succession of alliances over half a century, which ended with very little results (only a few combined actions, a few coordinated strategic moves that ended in military defeat against the Mamluks):
J.R. Phillips in The medieval expansion of Europe, who describes "some kind of alliance or collaboration" that lasted half a century:
We shouldn't be making an amalgam of two different concepts: an alliance and its outcome. I believe this is exactly how we should explain the Franco-Mongol alliance: agreements to ally over a period of about half a century, but failure to properly coordinate and ultimate military defeat. I proposed at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance the following definition of the alliance, which could be used at the introduction sentence:
"The Franco-Mongol alliance was ... a diplomatic and military rapprochement between the Crusader Franks and the Mongols against the Muslim Mamluks between the mid-13th and early 14th centuries, which led to numerous attempts at collaboration, and ultimately ended in military failure."
Isn't this a very honest and balanced description, which fully incorporates the difficulties of the subject? Best regards Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 17:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I have seen ample justification for the original topic ban and its extension. Now immediately after it has expired ( 2. February 2010 is not "long ago" as claimed by Domer48 above), I had to observe that the same old problems resurface virtually unchanged. In fairness, the one visible change is that he dresses his POV pushing (and even his personal attacks against Elonka) in very polite words now, where in the beginning he could be highly caustic. But that is really just sugar-coating on the actual problem. As strange as it seems, PHG appears entirely unable to view historical topics from a neutral distance, and to look at his pet theories in the light of a larger context. Over several years, all arguments by others have washed right off him without leaving any traces of insight. So even after two years of restriction, I still see an ongoing need for damage control. Since a change of attitude seems highly unlikely, I will support an indefinite extension of his topic ban. -- Latebird ( talk) 18:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Honestly, I was about ready to bring this myself having seen PHG's edits to Franco-Mongol Alliance over the past week. The views being expressed are identical to those from the first case which ArbCom reviewed and found to be a complete misrepresentation of sources. This behavior not only hasn't stopped in relation to the Mongols, but apparently is spilling into other areas. It is not appropriate, no matter how well intentioned, to cherry pick statements from sources, misrepresent the source's meaning and base entire viewpoints on a snippet seen while searching Google Books - PHG doesn't seem to have caught on to this issue and is still just as reluctant to change his behavior when its pointed out as a problem.
Again, as in the first case, we see PHG scrambling to create additional coatracks for his theory once he's caught - he's created at least two additional articles to bolster his changes despite the same article content existing elsewhere (without PHG's novel spin on things). It took over two years for us to clean up this mess last time folks, can we please not let this get started again? I applaud PHG's intentions and hard work as an editor, but since he can't seem to understand the problems with the way he uses sources, especially when it comes to historical articles, and since his mentor has apparently not been able to resolve this issue, we need to stop this disruption to the project.
I think its also important to note that despite his promise that he would stay away from the topic, PHG created an article coatrack just an hour later after posting his response here (and after requests by his mentor to stop) but before the actual promise to stop editing in the area and inserted it into the Franco-Mongol alliance article. Again, this is an exact repeat of the behavior that caused the issue to get all the way to Arbitration in the first place.
Shell
babelfish
A few updates to clarify the concerns here and respond to PHG's comments:
Obviously PHG has been able to work very well in other topic areas. Perhaps he does not have as many preconceived notions elsewhere, or simply isn't as invested in the outcome. Whatever the case, once again many hours of contributor time have been lost trying to resolve this issue which again is complete and utter misuse and misrepresentation of sources to achieve an unsupportable POV. Shell babelfish 21:52, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Just in case the Arbs don't catch the irony, that's the same picture PHG posted in 2007 - the same books he misused repeatedly (which was quite soundly proven in the case). Note especially that not a single one of the sources PHG has used lately show up on his "bookshelf". In particular, if PHG does own a copy of books that are now hundreds of years old and is not using the snippets from Google Books, I welcome him to take a picture of THAT. Shell babelfish 16:20, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Claiming that there were only "attempts at an alliance" is misleading and a contradiction of historical facts. The alliance, or a succession of alliances (that is, agreements to achieve a common goal) indeed took place, but the results were without dispute very little (a few combined operations and a few coordinated strategic movements)
Placeholder: PHG and I are currently discussing this matter elsewhere. I do not intend to submit a statement until we have exhausted our conversation. Since PHG has agreed to Steve Smith's request below, I do not believe this should be a problem. My apologies for any inconvenience this may cause. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
1. For the next year:
Angusmclellan ( talk · contribs) is thanked by the committee for serving admirably as PHG's mentor, and it is hoped that he will continue to serve in that capacity.
Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 20:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
2. ArbCom renews the topic ban from the PHG arbitration. Per Honor et Gloria ( talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, and Hellenistic India—all broadly defined. This topic ban will last for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion.
Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 20:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
2.1. Per Honor et Gloria ( talk · contribs) is prohibited from creating new articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire;all broadly defined. This restriction will last for a period of one year.
This is an archive of past Clarification and Amendment requests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to file a new clarification or amendment request, you should follow the instructions at the top of this page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | → | Archive 45 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Abd ( talk) at 21:08, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
original statement, not necessary to read
| ||||
---|---|---|---|---|
I am subject to an "MYOB" sanction, as amended:
It is apparent that ArbComm did not intend to prevent me from normal editing, which can, of course, involve some level of "dispute." The discussion leading up to that ban made it clear: my interventions in disputes was considered disruptive, though this had not been established by specific evidence, so the normal existence of examples helpful in clarifying what was considered "not my business" was absent. However, consistent with the discussion, I interpret "originating party" as referring to being involved in some dispute primarily, as distinct from happening across two or more editors arguing and intervening. There is a present situation would could appear as the latter. However, it was, in fact, the former, I was an involved editor, and would have, for example, been allowed to file an AN/I report myself, presumably. My edits and discussion of the case were not considered violations of the sanction, until I responded to an AN/I report filed by one editor complaining about another, very much about that case. The sanction is not specific to AN/I, and if it prohibited what I did at AN/I, it would also seem to prohibit everything else I was doing. But Sandstein has interpreted the line as being crossed at AN/I, interpreting "originating party" very strictly, in a technical sense, instead of as substance, i.e., as "already involved through legitimate and permitted editing." This interpretation was asserted before, in prior RfAr/Clarification, I questioned it, but this was not addressed by the committee. Hence my request here. In this case, I considered filing this request before posting to AN/I, but I take WP:IAR very seriously, balancing the necessities of the project with the disruption involved in possibly violating a sanction. I judged that an emergency existed, and that serious and permanent damage might be done, were I not to intervene. Confirming and supporting on-wiki harassment of an editor, resulting from rejected off-wiki extortion over WP content, through a block, can damage the reputation of Wikipedia, and I was willing to risk being blocked to prevent or at least warn against this damage. I'm presenting links to the history of this incident in collapse. They are only here as an example of how the sanction might be ambiguous, not to involve ArbComm in a dispute without groundwork being laid. No action other than clarification is requested at this point. Sandstein has issued a "clarification" which means that I'm clearly enjoined from repetition of what triggered the AE report, whether that was a sanction violation or not. However, now, some days later, and with the injunction requiring all abstinence from comment on the situation outside these pages, whether as "originating party" or not, and because disruption, including extensive comment about me and my actions across many pages, from editors who should know better, is continuing, I may have no recourse left but to file an RfAr; the instant situation is being used as a claim (below) that the strict interpretation was necessary to avoid disruption, thus it may be necessary to examine that, and I have no means of doing so outside of an RfAr, otherwise I'd follow ordinary DR over my dispute. That's the result of an over-strict interpretation of the ban. I'll wait a while to see, though. Please understand that I prefer any decision to no decision. No decision leaves me wondering what the hell ArbComm intends. Some seem to believe that it was basically, "Go Away, Abd, this is our project, not yours." Fine. ArbComm can decide that. I agree, even, with half of it. At least I thought it was "our project." comment revised due to shifting situation --20:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC) @SamJohnston: Since he is insisting so strongly here (and elsewhere around the wiki) I'll pull this part out of collapse. I urge it be read by anyone who wants to understand the situation better, though the deeper background remains described and linked in the collapse box. It seems to me that I was arrested and charged with jaywalking while someone was being mugged on the sidewalk. Definitely, I shouldn't jaywalk, in general, especially after being warned, but ... what if I crossed the street to prevent a mugging? And the police came running ... and arrested me as that notorious repeat jaywalker? And the mugged person is also arrested for "disturbing the peace," i.e., yelling and getting blood on the sidewalk? Besides, he was wanted for an unpaid traffic citation. The mugger is thanked for calling attention to these criminals. Okay, dramatic, but perhaps you get my point. AN/I report section on off-wiki harassment:
archived discussion
permanent link, present state There is more response to SamJohnston in the collapse box for responses to involved editors; however, his allegations are not relevant here, which is why the response is in collapse. The issue here is the interpretation of the sanction so that further unintentional violations do not take place, or, alternatively, AE actions are not filed on behavior not prohibited. The current incident is described only as an example where there was, certainly for me, or possibly for others, a difficulty of interpretation, and there have been opinions given by other editors, both ways. I'm not asking ArbComm to decide whether or not I was justified under WP:IAR, because that would not clarify the sanction.
@TenOfAllTrades. I wrote TOAT to consider just what came to light in the AN report discussing his block of LirazSiri, and which led to another admin reversing his action. I describe the mail in the collapse box below.
@Mathsci: WP:RfAr/Abd-William M. Connolley#Mathsci reminded. Whom do you think you are fooling with "Uninvolved Mathsci"? @EnricNaval: Yes. The ad-hoc clarification by admins at AE is legitimate, that is, it is proper for them to make an interpretation and enforce it, and to issue clarification, which ArbComm can accept or change, without any aspersions being cast on them. If they are involved, however, in some way, it might not be proper. That's not the case with Sandstein, I explicitly accepted his neutrality even when I knew that his proposed interpretation was, I believe, incorrect. If ArbComm takes no action here, then his interpretation stands and I'm bound by it. Which probably does mean that I'll stop editing Wikipedia as Abd, and if this is the result that arbitrators desire, they need do nothing. As to the instant case, if ArbComm wants to understand whether the strict interpretation being proposed was actually useful, it would have to look at that case, which could be arranged. I cannot arrange it because Sandstein has required me to avoid comment on that case outside of these pages. I could file an RfAr, though, I assume. Maybe I should, being prevented from acting short of that by the interpretation. If that were considered improper, ArbComm could easily move to site-ban me. But I'd be an "originating party," clearly. However, the present case doesn't define the sanction, and, even if the clarification by Sandstein et al stands, I'd probably have commented anyway, under the strict interpretation, because of IAR, and if a similar situation arises again (rare, I saw truly egregious abuse like I've never seen before, and I've seen a lot), I'd do it again. For better and for worse. I'm still trying to figure out this wiki thing, when lots of editors here, part of a vanishing crew, seem to think they've got it down cold. They don't. It's failing. And lots of present and former editors, administrators, and arbitrators know it. I'm one of the few people actually trying to fix the system instead of imagining that the problem is Bad Editors and can be fixed by banning them. Has that worked? |
Some days ago, while I was still blocked as a response to material in the statement I've now collapsed above, I wrote that I preferred to withdraw the request. If that had been noticed and copied here, it would have perhaps saved a little time by the arbitrators who subsequently commented, but I concluded that the issues on which I needed clarification were complex enough that raising them in this venue was unlikely to be fruitful, hence, for the time being, I am bound to follow an interpretation of the sanction that is quite a bit tighter than I had thought was intended. Please consider the request withdrawn. -- Abd ( talk) 05:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This is related to the open enforcement request at WP:AE#Result concerning Abd. The question asked at some length above is whether my interpretation proposed there of "originating party" in Abd's restriction is correct. I appreciate any guidance by arbitrators on that matter. So as not to complicate matters further, I have asked Abd not to continue his current dispute in any venue before the request for arbitration enforcement is resolved. Sandstein 21:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
This is utterly ridiculous. Abd has been explicitly forbidden from engaging in this behaviour and is just off the back of a three month ban. The fact there is any question whatsoever that the original editing restriction was blatantly and repeatedly violated is incomprehensible to me. This editor deserves to be blocked - for me it's just a question of how long for. -- samj in out 04:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
So far as I am concerned my request for enforcement was improperly closed (at Abd's behest no less) in spite of protests from other users and at least one admin. Thus while that particular avenue may have been exhausted prematurely, the underlying issue remains unresolved. I reserve the right to pursue it through the usual channels pending the official outcome of this request for clarification - both as a victim of his personal attacks and of his incredible ability to sap energy and waste the time of all those who [are forced to] engage with him. I hope and trust the arbitrators will reaffirm and enforce Fut.Perf.'s interpretation, as if this were not the intent, what could it possibly have been?
I too initially believed Abd had agreed "to abide by the meaning of the restriction as explained [...] in an unambiguous and convincing manner" but he didn't even wait half an hour after this was acknowledged before he started off a new thread on his talk page directly disputing it, and kicked off a dispute with User:Future Perfect at Sunrise for good measure. He had also been emailing the editor he had been egging on the whole time (once again involving himself in a third-party dispute even while the enforcement request was being discussed) and continues to undermine the project and cause trouble.
P.S. Warning an active spammer/vandal that you'll nominate their article for deletion at AfD if they don't chill out is not "off-wiki harassment". This is off-wiki harassment. And despite all the usual hand waving, finger pointing, wikilawyering, etc. this clarification is the direct result of Abd turning routine cleanup after a career conflicted editor into a multi-venue, multi-editor dispute. Quoting JzG: "It's not clear this even would be a dispute without Abd's involvement. We have one WP:SPA making blatantly promotional COI edits, and one user making comments about it." -- samj in out 00:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
When Abd had commented at length on WP:ANI concerning TurnKey Linux in a matter where he was not an originating party, I left a reminder there of his editing restrictions without further comment. Other editors, including Enric Naval ( talk · contribs), also commented. At ANI Abd's reaction has been problematic: an attempt to smear us, because we commented in the Abd&WMC case - as if we like him are under some kind of sanction as a result of that case (see above for example). He has written similar remarks about JzG ( talk · contribs). His posts on ANI seemed inflammatory and contrary to the ArbCom editing restrictions. Sandstein interpreted them this way at WP:AE and other users seem to agree there. Stephan Schulz ( talk · contribs) has commented there and also subsequently been described as "involved" by Abd; he has been banned from Abd's talk page. Likewise Future Perfect at Sunrise ( talk · contribs) is now apparently "involved" and "in dispute" with Abd, according to Abd's talk page. Abd's escalation to a request for clarification and aggressive threats to SamJohnston [4] are a repetition of the wikilawyering and time-wasting already witnessed in early January, when the short phrase on mentors was removed. That he is periodically testing the limits of his editing restrictions in this tendentious way is not a good sign at all. Mathsci ( talk) 07:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The aim of the remedy is to keep Abd from wasting the time of everybody involved with his tendency to wikilawyering and his prodigous output, while still allowing him access to WP:DR where it is really necessary. Therefore the exception should be interpreted narrowly, not widely. If he can enter any dispute simply by claiming to be involved, or by claiming that he wanted to file a DR request "soon", the restriction becomes useless. -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 15:56, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I have offered the following clarification to Abd [6], and intend to enforce it as long as Arbcom doesn't provide a different decision:
Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I've just received an email regarding this dispute from Abd, attempting to intervene with me on behalf of LirizSiri (whom I recently blocked for attempted outing and threats to reveal personal information). While this may technically adhere to the terms of his restrictions, Abd is certainly evading their spirit. Frankly, I find Future Perfect's statement above to offer the simplest, clearest interpretation of the intent of Abd's sanctions. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 04:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Observation regarding GoRight. I note that, as has been the pattern since at least Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley (in which these restrictions on Abd's conduct were originally established) GoRight is continuing to argue on Abd's behalf, and continuing to encourage Abd's misguided interest in counterproductively inserting himself into other editors' disputes. While I am unsure of what form such a remedy should take, perhaps it is time to consider an ArbCom resolution along the lines of "GoRight shall refrain from encouraging other editors to be wikilawyering nuisances." TenOfAllTrades( talk) 17:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Addendum: I have also previously, explicitly asked Abd not to email me. It is both telling and troubling that he felt the need to ignore my wishes to avoid off-wiki, off-the-record communcations with him in order to evade his editing restrictions.
TenOfAllTrades(
talk) 02:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Abd is testing the limits again. It's just what he does, like eating or breathing. Thus Arbcom has two choices: (i) you can resign yourselves to dealing with "clarifications" re Abd every few months for as long as he's on the project, or (ii) remove him from the project. It's up to the Arbs how you prefer to spend your time, but experience proves those are your only realistic alternatives. Short Brigade Harvester Boris ( talk) 00:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Fut. Perf. and would endorse enforcement to that effect based on the wording of this restriction. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 09:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The interpretation is inside the discretion given to admins in WP:AE. The goal of the restriction was keeping Abd out of disputes that he doesn't belong to (because he makes a mess out of those disputes). The interpretation is accomplishing this goal. The restriction has shown that it's effective by cutting short this latest dispute. The restriction has shown that it's useful in cutting drama and disruption before it gets out of hand. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 16:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Before the edit that caused this last block, Abd had already tested the boundaries of his voluntary self-limitation. He commented in LirazSiri's page about the advice given to him, after saying that he wouldn't comment more on the dispute. It doesn't look like Abd is taking this seriously.
Abd is also making unwarranted analogies, like comparing himself with a man that is trying to rescue his spouse and children from a fire [8].
Please let admins at WP:AE take care of this and don't allow Abd to escalate this so he can grandstand about how he is being prevented from saving wikipedia from itself. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
After FP posted his clarification on Abd's talk page, I took the opportunity to (hopefully obviously) play the role of devil's advocate with respect to this excessive focus on the word originating. To that end I posted a comment which took that focus to it's logical interpretation:
FP then responded with a rather predictable stance:
At which point I was forced to again point out the logical fallacies in FP's thinking:
Interestingly, with this post you now seem to be arguing Abd's point for him. If A, B, and C are all arguing about some particular issue and A files a DR action against B but explicitly excludes C how can you argue that C has NOT played an "originating role that triggered the DR process"? On what basis are you claiming that B is an originating party but C is not? Again, your original position stated above makes no logical sense. Either my interpretation as stated above is what was meant, which is clearly absurd and should be corrected, or I guess you are now in agreement with Abd's view and so he was correct all along. In either case your original interpretation is logically flawed. -- GoRight ( talk) 15:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)" Note: minor formatting changes have been applied.
In the end, while FP's interpretation may be convenient for himself and Abd's detractors in general, it makes literally no logical sense at all. At this point I would actually just observe that this sanction is causing significant disruption in its own right given that it (a) isn't clear what it actually means, and (b) isn't clear what it is actually trying to address. Given the level of disruption occurring here it may make more sense to either remove the sanction entirely or restructure it to address a specific identified behavior and word it in a clear and enforceable manner.
Lacking any such substantive changes I fear that we will find ourselves in a never ending cycle of discussion over the whole thing as Abd's detractors come up with even more inventive ways to misinterpret and misapply this ill-defined and perhaps ill-conceived sanction. -- GoRight ( talk) 17:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
At some point in the above sequence of events FP had
added more clarifications to Abd's talk page:
I then pointed out the logical flaws in this set of interpretations as well:
I can only assume, and please correct me if I am wrong, that the sanction was never intended to bar Abd from taking proper steps to protect the project from harm when he saw such harm actively occuring but this appears to be exactly what FP is asserting. If a vandal reinserts his garbage into an article after some other editor had previously reverted it, is it the intent of this sanction to actually bar Abd from confronting the vandal who is now in a dispute with another editor? The lengths to which this sanction can be misapplied are endless and disruptive to the project. -- GoRight ( talk) 17:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Question for TOAT: What part of my statement above appears to be encouraging Abd to do anything at all? Please point me to the specific portions that make such encouragement so that I can correct them forthwith. It is not my intention to encourage any editor to take any particular action, other than to encourage Arbcom to pro-actively eliminate or restructure the sanction in question so as to clarify its intent and to render it more directly enforceable than it is in its current incarnation. It is my belief that doing so will minimize disruption on this issue moving forward.
Let me be clear and direct: I encourage Abd to continue to take his sanctions seriously and to continue to endeavor to adhere to them to the best of his ability given his best understanding thereof. -- GoRight ( talk) 20:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
FP's current block of Abd: I have opened an AN report here. -- GoRight ( talk) 23:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Unsigned edits in sections written by others: I note the following [9] which was placed in a section written by Abd but was unsigned which makes it appear as though Abd wrote it. Perhaps the author or a clerk could move this comment into the author's own section to avoid confusion on this point? Thanks. -- GoRight ( talk) 16:48, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's possible to clarify things any further with Mr. Abd, whether his obliviousness is innocent or deliberate, the end result is the same. He seems to have confused WP:IAR with WP:IGNOREALLSANCTIONS, which is mysteriously red-linked. And so we move on to the passive-aggressive threats of sockpuppeting (see the "@EnricNavel" section of Abd's most recent missive). I can only speak for myself, but I know I'm shivering in my boots - well done, Abd. "If I decide your sanctions are unfair, I'll totally start socking to get around them, and then what will you do? *swivels black leather chair to survey cityscape with a smirk, silently petting largely disinterested snow-white pussycat*". What a valuable, mature, level-headed contributor to our online encyclopedia! Badger Drink ( talk) 06:40, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
The tumbleweed seems to be blowing through the arbitrators# section. Does this mean:-
Thank you for your consideration. Spartaz Humbug! 17:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Abd's statement above is over 3,000 words. A bit of brevity would go a long way here. Guy ( Help!) 19:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by ~
R.
T.
G at 17:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Note:This request is about the Wikiproject Ireland Collaboration and, perhaps, how to move the naming debate out of it without discussing naming at all!
A discussion has arisen on the project about renaming it as Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Naming Debate. The collaboration project was created at the instruction of ARBCOM. Judging the front page of the project, its description of inspiration and goals, a major intention was to provide a collaboration area for loyalist/unionist and republican/nationalist to collaborate and consider disputes. Please clarify this. Is it the WikiProject Ireland Naming Debate or is it the collaboration project intended to concile culturally opposed editors as may be presumed by the projects front page?
The Naming Debates have overshadowed the collaboration project. Nothing else appears to exist on the projects discussion and these naming debates are impossibly long. They also concern editors mainly of republican/nationalist persuasions excepting for some contributions from neutral editors. The Naming Debates were a runaway train long before the collaboration project was created. As such a debate chokes the life out of all else on a project page, should such debates be moved prerequisite to a sub-project such as the now suggested Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Naming Debate only to provide notifications to the parent project detailing progression or events (such as voting) to prevent overshadowing other issues?
The Naming Debates, as per normal dispute progression, have not produced a collection of evidence outside of signed statements to ARBCOM and talk page threads, signed statements and conversational viewpoints. Should editors in a runaway train dispute be requested in good faith to produce a collaborative collection of verifiable evidence without signatures or conversational viewpoints? Would such a page of evidence spread a little grease on the path of neutral evaluation? Neutral editors have shown up often to the Naming Debates but rarely managed their intended contribution. Also, editors making signed statements have an invitation to be as convincing and therefore cunning as they see fit. Would an unsigned collection of consolidated and verified evidence be preferential in a dispute put to the wider community for evaluation, even if it were divided into sections preferable to particular disputees collective persuasions?
Please, tell me where you get lost and I will explain. I do not have a second level education to speak of.
Please consider my request on the talk page to use context definitions in the clarification request heading.
Thanks, ~ R. T. G 17:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
What about producing collaborating evidence, Ireland naming debates or other disputes, is it preferable to Arbcom? Would you consider at least requesting it of disputes? Without discarding the podium (everybody making signed statements or signed talk page comments), can there not be an alternative method whereby disputing parties gather together evidence much like a regular article detailing the whys and whats of disputed content? Is that not a good idea even if it were never taken advantage of? I think that it would be taken advantage of if Arbcom regularly suggested it. For the purpose of initiating collaboration between content diputees with cultural differences, it would be like requesting an Ireland collaboration project except with less scope for verbal dihorrea in the findings and more prominence for facts which are found to be mistaken or misleading. Every project has a front page with information, so should every dispute which merits the attention of Arbcom. Disputees will often refuse to participate in such a way but where then do neutral editors come in? Right there. They run the show. It doesn't seem as busy on Arbcom as a year or more ago but I am sure you still have some pile-ups in the works. I would like very much to see a non-statement oriented page of evidence coming from the Ireland naming case, purely for adequate reference purposes. They certainly wont do it now, but maybe if a long time ago Arbcom had suggested it to them... ~ R. T. G 14:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
To clarify,
Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration was not created at the instruction of ArbCom, or as a consequence of the Ireland article names case. It was created by
Gnevin on
31 October 2008 to - believe it or not - improve collaboration. The Ireland naming disdcussion moved there on
4 February 2009. --
Scolaire (
talk) 19:57, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Since the originator has never clarified his request, and as he seems to have lost interest – not only in this request, but in the whole Ireland Collaboration/Ireland naming project – I think ArbCom should close this ASAP. --
Scolaire (
talk) 17:33, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Asdfg 12345 at 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Sandstein said he banned me from editing Falun Gong articles for three reasons: “edit-warring (less aggressively than some of his opponents, but still), single purpose account (editing only FG topics) and advocacy (editing only to present FG more favorably)”
I will respond to these points with explanation and diffs.
1: On the edit warring charge.
I have had a policy of 1RR for a long time now. I think the only time I broke it was shown in the complaint against me; I crossed 1RR a couple of times then. That was under the circumstance that the other editor had ignored a consensus, derived from an RfC, which supported what I had suggested from the beginning. I felt justified, but in hindsight would be more careful. I’m not aware of any other edit warring on my part—none was presented in the original AE—and it is my intention to maintain the 1RR policy and not revert at all when it can be avoided. I try to always discuss things cogently and civilly. I do not edit war, do not intend to edit war, and know edit warring is bad.
2: On the single purpose account charge.
Since being banned I have taken a broader interest in other topics related to Chinese politics and governance. Whether I edit Falun Gong articles or not, I will continue to edit other articles unrelated to Falun Gong.
I note that the page on SPAs is not a policy item, but an essay. Of course, Wikipedia is not for advocacy, and advocates coming to push their POVs should be shown the door. I am here to help build this encyclopedia on the topics that I know about and that interest me, not as an advocate of an outside cause. I know the rules and play by them, and I want to build professional articles on the subjects I edit. (Though I’ve also been accused of “wikilawyering” when citing policy or providing sources to support my views.)
3: On the advocacy charge.
I do not and have not edited only to present Falun Gong more favourably. Most of my ideas for improvement, and many of my edits, are not structured along the lines of favourable/unfavourable, which I think is most often an unproductive dichotomy for categorising edits or editors. That said, it may appear that many of my edits make Falun Gong look favourable because a lot of the information which paints Falun Gong in an unfavourable light, whether reliably sourced or not, or in accord with due weight or not, is already in the articles, or has already been added by other editors. Making Falun Gong look favourable is not my purpose for editing Wikipedia, and I of course know the job of Wikipedia isn’t to paint Falun Gong in a favourable light—I don’t support including material just because it is perceived favourable to Falun Gong, and excluding material just because it is perceived as unfavourable. Making this accusation has become a common way of deflecting attention from the issues at hand onto the individual raising the problem.
Here is a small collection of edits meant to counter the idea that I’m editing Wikipedia to promote a pro-Falun Gong point of view:
Final remarks
Those are just some examples. I wrote a
long response to the arguments presented by Enric Naval that attempted to show that I am a tendentious editor who lavishes praise on Falun Gong and deletes anything perceived negative. Most of the complaint and belated response is straightforward, I think, except the second complaint. That is more complex. The quickest way to sum it up, though, is to see the
two
RfCs I started, and note that the opinion of the uninvolved party was exactly what I had been saying. There was a second RfC because Simonm223
ignored the first.
When writing this, I made a choice to say little about the editing dynamics on the pages, the issues surrounding Falun Gong and how they may relate to Wikipedia, perceived biases on the part of some editors, which usually dominate discussion on this subject. Based on some of the unwelcoming remarks to newcomers though, I think the environment will have to improve to avoid further litigation.
I think my being banned was a mistake, and I hope above to have shown why. I have learned from the experience, and will continue to cultivate a more nuanced approach to editing Wikipedia, including doing better with research, and editing a wider variety of articles. I feel like I have gotten some perspective in this month, thought about the issues, and so decided to request an amendment. Please advise if further evidence would be helpful in deciding my case. Thank you for your time.
Respectfully, -- Asdfg 12345 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Some thoughtful remarks on the subject from an outside editor: [10] [11]
I wish I could understand how this was a reasonable use of admin discretion, given the evidence above, and lack of evidence for the opposing views which were the reasons for the ban. I find it extremely confusing that arbitrators think my case is not only "comfortably within the reach of enforcement discretion" but that the "decision appears reasonable" as well. And there is no way to actually determine whether they have evaluated the case on its own merits or not; they fail to comment on the evidence or elaborate on the rationale of the case.
Sandstein's rationale for banning me makes three claims that are provable/disprovable. They are specific claims, the truth value of which can be evaluated objectively. I was said to have edit warred, but the only evidence for that is breaking one revert of the same content within 24 hours, after having sought a third party opinion that was ignored; I was said to only edit Falun Gong articles, something that is allowed, but my contributions indicate otherwise anyway; I was said to have edited only to make Falun Gong look favourable, but a string of diffs above also indicate that this is not the case. At the moment the process is slightly bewildering, and it's completely unclear as to what, precisely, I have done wrong. I have been given no ideas about how I'm supposed to "improve my editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines," since no specific problems have been pointed out. If the arguments were a bit more slippery, it would be easier to justify them. For example, that I'm an inveterate Falun Gong apologist no matter what I do or say, editing other articles is just covering my tracks, and the times when I edit against Falun Gong, that's also to cover my tracks. Then I would be a class enemy. In that case, I wouldn't have much to say; it would be an impenetrable argument. But they are three quite specific claims, and I believe I have shown how they are untrue above. At the moment it just seems like I'm being treated as a class enemy without that being openly stated.
I suppose this format is very limited for being able to understand the processing of all the information that I presume is going on in people's brains.
My other concern, though, is that the major procedural flaw in how this case was decided still appears to have been overlooked: I was not "given a warning" before sanctions were imposed. The page outlining discretionary sanctions mentions this twice. Whatever the merits of the decision, I do not understand how sanctions which didn't follow the rules of how they were meant to be applied can be upheld.
I could not think of a more effective process for making someone get a sense that their rights had been tossed aside and due process ignored. If we want to carry the working logic forward, given that I am such a bad egg who would not even benefit from a clear explanation of how they can improve before being banned, or precisely what they have done wrong, or even deserve to be accorded due process, why not just ban me from Falun Gong articles forever? Why would six months make any difference? And why should I be able to edit the talk pages? At least then there would be some consistency in the autocracy. Whatever the decision, to whoever can give a clear, reasoned, response as to how Sandstein's three arguments are still valid in light of my response, and answer my complaints about due process, I would be grateful.-- Asdfg 12345 03:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I won't apply for any kind of community appeal, and I'm sorry to have wasted your time, my time, and the time of other editors and admins. I saw an exchange between Shell Kinney and Olaf Stephanos which makes the situation very clear. I had thought that the policies were like a book of law that you just had to stick to and keep within. But it's actually much more about perceptions, social capital, and branding. And nonconformists may have extraordinary measures applied to them. Never mind when propaganda comes from editors who are integrated into Wikipedia, and "outsiders" wish to fix things and explicitly follow all relevant rules when doing so. If you are seen as an advocate, especially for a perceived NRM (but not for science) you are not welcome. It doesn't matter if you are reasonable and law-abiding or not. This is probably just a necessary evil and compromise given Wikipedia's openness and potential for real bad guys to exploit the system. I maintain that I am not one of the bad guys, have kept strictly within policy, and have only ever wished for a professional treatment of Falun Gong. I have been polite nearly all the time, and frequently compromised, shared ideas, and worked with whoever was interested to build the pages. I do not want to see a whitewashing or exclusion of criticism. But doing Wikipedia properly means no propaganda, stringent sourcing, and inclusion of every significant perspective. All that is explicitly within Wikipedia's policies. I am not sure who will have the mettle to challenge the editors dedicated to promoting a negative view of Falun Gong - and their sympathisers - who are seen as part of the community. The silent consent to these ideologically motivated activities allows a page to go from this (11,200 words) to this (2,500 words).-- Asdfg 12345 23:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether, in view of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Appeal, this is the right venue for an appeal of a discretionary sanction, but if arbitrators would like my opinion about this request, I'll give it. Sandstein 06:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
This request belongs to WP:AE.
The content disputes belong to the talk pages of articles (and, for the record, I will reply much better to requests about content that are not filled with bad faith assumptions cannot be easily interpreted
[12] as being full of bad faith assumptions about how I'm trying to smear Falun Gong for some unspecified reason). --
Enric Naval (
talk) 22:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
I will give my brief comment. Asdfg12345 has worked constructively on the Falun Gong articles for several years. He has always been polite towards other editors, and has taken a methodical approach to NPOV, ensuring that no relevant point of view is left out and that sources are given fair treatment. His insistence on high-quality sources has been categorical, and he has repeatedly made use of peer-reviewed journals and other reputable academic publications.
I am afraid that the involved administrators do not fully understand the delicate balance of the overall situation. The neutrality of the Falun Gong articles has seriously degraded after Asdfg12345 was blocked. As many of us have observed, this is not a simple matter of "neutral-minded" editors seeking to honestly work towards an article that gives fair and due weight to all relevant viewpoints—and who follow neutrality as methodology—against "biased" SPAs who only work to "promote their cause". Indeed, practically none of the editors who have been involved with the Falun Gong articles has taken a totally cool, dispassionate approach to the subject matter. This is partly due to the editing environment and its long-standing disputes that have never been resolved properly, in spite of numerous attempts. Yet, among the group of editors who have been involved with the Falun Gong articles over the last few years, Asdfg12345's track record is among the very cleanest. He has proactively initiated rational and argumentative discussion, and I feel that this may be one reason why some would rather see him blocked. Asdfg12345 has kept up the true spirit of Wikipedia against those who have a preconceived notion of how the Falun Gong articles should read, and who fail to regard the true depth of high-ranking research out there. Moreover, there are always those who'd rather cut the corners than engage in real discussion.
My opinion is that the Arbitration Committee, or other Wikipedia officials in positions of comparable power, should put in the effort to investigate the situation from a pragmatic perspective. I would argue that Asdfg12345's case is too susceptible to an individual administrator's impression of the subject matter as such; in other words, I strongly feel that the case has not been evaluated on its own merits. The produced evidence does not warrant a block, and a six month topic ban is simply inconceivable. Just take a look at Asdfg12345's edit history: it can only prove that he is here to truly construct an encyclopedia. Even though his focus has been on the Falun Gong articles and related subjects in the past, his contributions have been extremely solid, balanced, well-sourced, and transparent. He is a real expert, and these articles and their informed readers sorely miss him. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 14:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
Having previously involved in the diting of Falun Gong related articles I was acquainted with User:asdfg and his/her editing style. User:asdfg is very polite and forthcoming and never stoops to civilty violations or other kinds of overtly abusive or disruptive behaviour. However, I think there is every reason to maintain the ban on the reason of asdfg's being a clear instance of a Single Purpose Account - of the most tenacious variety. I arrived at Falun Gong with out any preconceived notions (except an interest in presenting the issue in a academically adequate manner from the POV of a sociologist of religion (if anything I was prepared to possibly have to defend the viewpoint of Falun Gong as minority religion as these are often prone to attacks from "anti-cult editors")) - I was soon so completely exhausted by the constant pressure and civil disruption (in the form of disregard for consensus, continued argument over issues already determined by consensus and different kinds of vexatious litigation (in the form of rfc's, etc.)) from asdfg and other openly pro-Falun Gong editors that I decided that continuing work on that article was not worth the costs to my mental health - I know that several other editors have had similar experiences. I believe that topic banning asdfg from Falun Gong related articles is the right way to protect wikipedias integrity and the mental health of its neutral-minded editors. In short, I believe that no amendment to this arbitration decision is required or warranted ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:07, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nefer Tweety ( talk) at 13:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Nefer Tweety filed this complaint at the enforcement page, my and other peoples reply's to these false allegations can be read there, no violation against anything was found, and it was closed. [13]
There has been no meatpuppet invitation, it was a misunderstanding. A neutral (Egyptian) editor had seen the arguing between me and AC and left this post at my talkpage when I first requested the arbitration. He tried to help and fix the dispute so that was why I contacted him and asked for his help. So I asked this neutral (Egyptian) editor to get involved and told him that it was totally up to him what he wanted to do, and I was misunderstood by the admin, and I have already been blocked for that edit, almost 2 months ago: [14]
At the Omar Sharif article, What have I done? While the Nefer Tweety account edit warred with numerous editors removing sourced info: 1 2 3 4 5 times.
And carrying out Arab Cowboys sockpuppets edits at several articles, for example: [15] [16] [17] Look at this and compare: [18] 30 edits in between, made by several editors and bots, but he doesn't care.
I have added sources to the Sharif talkpage:
[19] Since that, several editors have expressed support for those sources and themselves added his Lebanese background to the article, Users Funkmonk
[20], Leabnese Bebe
[21], Lanternix
[22] and Nableezy
[23]. I have not told them to do anything. Am I supposed to get a harder restriction on me for adding sources to a talkpage? Have I violated my topic ban and restriction? or the principles of the case?
--
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk) 18:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Note: The Nefer Tweety account had yesterday filed yet another enforcement request and he received a warning for it and it was immediately closed, he has also been blocked by an admin yesterday for carrying out Arab Cowboys sockpuppet edits. [24] -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 18:03, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by El on ka at 07:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
#
Remedy 1: "PHG (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to medieval or ancient history for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion."
Remedy 2: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG#PHG's topic ban is narrowed and extended: "The original topic ban on editing articles related to medieval or ancient history is hereby rescinded. PHG (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, and Hellenistic India—all broadly defined. This topic ban will last for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion."
The original topic ban was on PHG ( talk · contribs), a user who has since changed his name to Per Honor et Gloria ( talk · contribs). His original topic ban, placed in March 2008, prevented him from making any edits in the entire topic area of medieval or ancient history for one year. This ban was extended in April 2008 to also require that PHG use only English-language sources, and use a mentor ( Angusmclellan) to assist with sourcing. Further problems were reported in July 2008. [25] See Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance for a long list of statements from established editors who were expressing concerns about PHG's use of sources. PHG has two specific POVs that he's been pushing, for over two years now: (1) That the Mongols "conquered" Jerusalem in 1300, and (2) that there was an alliance between the Europeans and the Mongols. Actual mainstream history, is that Jerusalem may have been subject to a Mongol raid at one point, but was not conquered; and that though there were attempts towards alliance, the attempts were unsuccessful. The Arbitration Committee investigated PHG's behavior in 2007/2008, agreed that PHG was misusing sources, and banned him from the medieval history topic area for a year.
Officially, the topic ban expired in 2009, but now that the
Franco-Mongol alliance article is up for
a Good Article Nomination, In December 2008, PHG filed a new case, requesting that his topic ban be lifted. The result was that the topic ban was narrowed to just articles related to the Crusades and the Mongol Empire, but was extended for another year. This latter topic ban expired on February 2, 2010, and PHG (Per Honor et Gloria) has resurfaced, and is resuming old tactics: Cherry-picking sources, pushing the same old POVs, and attempting to restore the article to the kinds of things it said back in 2007 that led to the ArbCom case in the first place.
[26] Of particular concern is that he is de-railing the GA nom,
[27]
[28] by dragging back up his "there was an alliance" POV, insisting that the lead sentence of the article be re-written to say that there was an alliance. This is making GA review extremely complex, as we don't want to have to re-debate this entire thing over again.
One of the things that makes PHG's POV-pushing so damaging, is that he (usually) tends to stay very civil, and his edits always look well-sourced. However, when experienced editors go in and actually look at the information he's trying to add, it becomes clear that PHG is not fairly representing what the sources say, and that he's also pulling in questionable sources, such as fragments of statements from works that are centuries-old, [29] or fragments from footnotes of books that are from long out-of-date historians, or works that are of unclear provenance. [30] Repeated requests to PHG to desist have been made at the article talkpage, and at his user talkpage, by both myself (Elonka), [31] [32] and PHG's mentor, Angusmclellan ( talk · contribs). [33] PHG promised Angus in email that the problems were over, but then continued with disruptive actions, [34] which are escalating at the GA nom. [35] I did file a request at WP:AE to see if the ban extension could be handled by community consensus, but the thread was closed as non-actionable, [36] so I am bringing it here, and asking that the topic ban be reinstated for at least another year. Thanks, -- El on ka 07:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
(one month followup) Despite repeated reminders for over a month, PHG's mentor, Angus McLellan, has not yet posted a statement to this amendment, despite his placeholder below.
As I (Elonka) am one of the primary editors dealing with PHG in this topic area, I have to admit to some frustration. Though PHG's POV-pushing on matters related to the Mongols is glaringly obvious to those who are familiar with the topic, I understand that to those not familiar with the subject matter, the situation may be somewhat confusing. I've been trying to find examples which make the situation more clear. For example, at Talk:Fall of Ruad#Map of 1300 operations there is a discussion about images. What is clear to me, is that PHG is attempting to use this article as an opportunity to insert an image, created by himself, which includes an arrow showing Mongol troop movements towards Jerusalem (even though Jerusalem isn't a key element of the article). This is part of a pattern of PHG-created images which show both this Jerusalem arrow, and apparent Mongol advances as far south as Gaza (see image at right). However, there was no armed clash at Gaza, the Jerusalem arrow is giving clear undue weight to the idea of a Mongol raid there (they raided several cities in Palestine for a period of a few months). A further POV problem with the image is that PHG focuses strictly on the troop movements of the Crusaders and the Mongols, but never shows the alternate view, of what the Egyptian Mamluks were doing as they advanced from the south and engaged (and defeated) the Mongols. PHG is all about the Mongol advance "towards Jerusalem", and not about the overall context, or what was going on with the other side of the engagement.As far as what I think ArbCom should do at this point, it's pretty simple: Please extend PHG's topic ban on Crusades and Mongol articles, preferably indefinitely. If PHG wishes to participate on these articles, he can make suggestions on talkpages. The ArbCom may also wish to consider appointing a more engaged mentor, since Angus appears to have limited time to deal with PHG. -- El on ka 16:56, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Nice trap! Elonka threatens me of Arbcom prosecution a few days ago [45] telling me "Do not edit it, do not participate at the talkpage, do not participate at the GA nom" at the Franco-Mongol alliance page, in itself a rather unethical threat (is an Administrator permitted to effectively impose an article ban through personal threat, especially when deeply involved?)... Then she nicely invites me to respond to her on that very page [46], I am stupid enough to answer to the invitation [47], and now she uses that as a justification to implement her initial threat. Isn't this wonderful?
Altogether, I must have done about 20 edits to the Franco-Mongol page and its Talk Page in the last two weeks or so. I have been taking pains to make extremely well-sourced statements with mainstream academic online references so that all I write can be checked by anybody. No disputes, respecting the content of other contributors: Wikipedia editing at its best [48] [49] [50]. But no, Elonka seems to resent the very fact that I simply contribute, however professionally, to the Franco-Mongol alliance page, an article I created two years ago.
Elonka has been forcing her point of view on the relationships between the Franks and the Mongols in the 13th century, attacking the main contributor on the subject (me) if my views did not fit hers.
Most significantly, she has attacked me strenuously for two years for claiming that the Mongols were in Jerusalem in 1300. Elonka's problem now is that User:Srnec painstakingly studied the sources himself and strongly challenged her former interpretation, declaring that "the modern, reliable sources say unequivocally that the Mongols were in Jerusalem" [55] and that it can be said that they "took" and "held" the city [56]. It turns out that the raid of 10,000 to 20,000 Mongols resulted in huge depredations reported in detail by Muslim sources [57]. The historian Andrew Jotischki confirms that in 1300 "after a brief and largely symbolic occupation of Jerusalem, Ghazan returned to Persia" ( Jotischki p.249). Elonka herself has been forced to change her writing to the Mongols "probably" raided Jerusalem in 1300! [58]. She even had to apologize finally [59]. After pursuing me so harshly for so long for writing about the Mongols and Jerusalem in 1300, this is quite a change isn’t it? In light of her misrepresentations of historical facts, which she used to obtain a ruling against me, I think Elonka could become a little more humble in her views on history, but, no, all she can find is sending me here. The problem I believe is that Elonka makes very strong statements, and pursues other users harshly based on factually wrong premises. Just as she misrepresented facts for Jerusalem, there are many more instances where she takes such a stance, and you have to follow it, or else.
The Arbcom has formally determined that I could resume normal editing now, so, my intention is indeed to resume normal editing (see an example with Ruad expedition). I think if Elonka has issues with some of my contributions, she should just raise the issues, discuss them specifically, and resolve them according to Wikipedia rules, rather than make a rethoretical attack as above.
I think our responsibility as Wikipedians is to follow the sources punctiliously (I've become much better at that, and I'm now making sure all my contributions can be checked online whenever possible), and to make sure that power-hungry or drama-hungry individuals do not skew the facts too much. Best regards to all, and happy editing! Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 07:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I would like to propose that the present attempt to reopen this case without any clear ground to do so is simply an attempt to use the system and the threat of Arbcom prosecution as a tool to restrict my editorial rights, inspite of the formal end of my topic ban and the quality of my contributions [105]. I guess this is what is generally called "gaming the system" and "disruption" on Wikipedia. For example, the "POV" accusations about creating the Ruad expedition article have finally boiled down to a discussion about finding the most adequate title [106]. The "COATRACK" accusations about creating the article Timurid relations with Europe are finally receiving no significant support [107]. Then, Elonka's 4th motion [108] to change the article name at Franco-Mongol alliance seems like a rehashing of old discussions, inspite of the fact that this has been resolved three times in the past: 1: Request for move, 2: Poll for renaming the article, 3: Article title, seemingly a rather examplary case of disruption. As support is not forthcoming, e-mail canvassing is probably going to be called to the rescue now. These series of actions seem to me to boil down to undue maneuvering, demonstrably false accusations, and the incessant repetition of rather strident personal attacks, and only result in disrupting the system, losing everybody's time and good humour, damaging editor motivation, and giving a poor image of Wikipedia. I suggest this case be dismissed and that such behaviour be warned against. Best regards. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 00:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Elonka's 4th motion in 2 years to change the title of the Franco-Mongol alliance article has again been rejected by the community [109], as I think should be this request for amendment. Please let there be some justice on Wikipedia. Best regards to all. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 03:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Let me quote (and provide a readable link to) Jotishcky Crusading and the Crusader States p.239, whom I believe admirably summarizes the facts of the Franco-Mongol alliance. Claiming that there were only "attempts at an alliance" is misleading and a contradiction of historical facts. The alliance, or a succession of alliances (that is, agreements to achieve a common goal) indeed took place, but the results were without dispute very little (a few combined operations and a few coordinated strategic movements):
"In 1262 Hulagu, the Mongol leader of the Near East, offered an alliance to Louis IX. An uneasy series of temporary alliances with the Mongols followed in the second half of the 13th century, but it was always an unequal relationship, and nothing substantial came out of them" Jotishcky Crusading and the Crusader States p.239
Best regards to all, and so much for the encyclopedic respect of historical facts. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 18:04, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
For those who seem to think that the alliance between the Franks and the Mongols is a pet theory, please just check the following quotes by major historians: Andrew Jotischki in Crusading and the Crusader States, who describes a succession of alliances over half a century, which ended with very little results (only a few combined actions, a few coordinated strategic moves that ended in military defeat against the Mamluks):
J.R. Phillips in The medieval expansion of Europe, who describes "some kind of alliance or collaboration" that lasted half a century:
We shouldn't be making an amalgam of two different concepts: an alliance and its outcome. I believe this is exactly how we should explain the Franco-Mongol alliance: agreements to ally over a period of about half a century, but failure to properly coordinate and ultimate military defeat. I proposed at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance the following definition of the alliance, which could be used at the introduction sentence:
"The Franco-Mongol alliance was ... a diplomatic and military rapprochement between the Crusader Franks and the Mongols against the Muslim Mamluks between the mid-13th and early 14th centuries, which led to numerous attempts at collaboration, and ultimately ended in military failure."
Isn't this a very honest and balanced description, which fully incorporates the difficulties of the subject? Best regards Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 17:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I have seen ample justification for the original topic ban and its extension. Now immediately after it has expired ( 2. February 2010 is not "long ago" as claimed by Domer48 above), I had to observe that the same old problems resurface virtually unchanged. In fairness, the one visible change is that he dresses his POV pushing (and even his personal attacks against Elonka) in very polite words now, where in the beginning he could be highly caustic. But that is really just sugar-coating on the actual problem. As strange as it seems, PHG appears entirely unable to view historical topics from a neutral distance, and to look at his pet theories in the light of a larger context. Over several years, all arguments by others have washed right off him without leaving any traces of insight. So even after two years of restriction, I still see an ongoing need for damage control. Since a change of attitude seems highly unlikely, I will support an indefinite extension of his topic ban. -- Latebird ( talk) 18:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Honestly, I was about ready to bring this myself having seen PHG's edits to Franco-Mongol Alliance over the past week. The views being expressed are identical to those from the first case which ArbCom reviewed and found to be a complete misrepresentation of sources. This behavior not only hasn't stopped in relation to the Mongols, but apparently is spilling into other areas. It is not appropriate, no matter how well intentioned, to cherry pick statements from sources, misrepresent the source's meaning and base entire viewpoints on a snippet seen while searching Google Books - PHG doesn't seem to have caught on to this issue and is still just as reluctant to change his behavior when its pointed out as a problem.
Again, as in the first case, we see PHG scrambling to create additional coatracks for his theory once he's caught - he's created at least two additional articles to bolster his changes despite the same article content existing elsewhere (without PHG's novel spin on things). It took over two years for us to clean up this mess last time folks, can we please not let this get started again? I applaud PHG's intentions and hard work as an editor, but since he can't seem to understand the problems with the way he uses sources, especially when it comes to historical articles, and since his mentor has apparently not been able to resolve this issue, we need to stop this disruption to the project.
I think its also important to note that despite his promise that he would stay away from the topic, PHG created an article coatrack just an hour later after posting his response here (and after requests by his mentor to stop) but before the actual promise to stop editing in the area and inserted it into the Franco-Mongol alliance article. Again, this is an exact repeat of the behavior that caused the issue to get all the way to Arbitration in the first place.
Shell
babelfish
A few updates to clarify the concerns here and respond to PHG's comments:
Obviously PHG has been able to work very well in other topic areas. Perhaps he does not have as many preconceived notions elsewhere, or simply isn't as invested in the outcome. Whatever the case, once again many hours of contributor time have been lost trying to resolve this issue which again is complete and utter misuse and misrepresentation of sources to achieve an unsupportable POV. Shell babelfish 21:52, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Just in case the Arbs don't catch the irony, that's the same picture PHG posted in 2007 - the same books he misused repeatedly (which was quite soundly proven in the case). Note especially that not a single one of the sources PHG has used lately show up on his "bookshelf". In particular, if PHG does own a copy of books that are now hundreds of years old and is not using the snippets from Google Books, I welcome him to take a picture of THAT. Shell babelfish 16:20, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Claiming that there were only "attempts at an alliance" is misleading and a contradiction of historical facts. The alliance, or a succession of alliances (that is, agreements to achieve a common goal) indeed took place, but the results were without dispute very little (a few combined operations and a few coordinated strategic movements)
Placeholder: PHG and I are currently discussing this matter elsewhere. I do not intend to submit a statement until we have exhausted our conversation. Since PHG has agreed to Steve Smith's request below, I do not believe this should be a problem. My apologies for any inconvenience this may cause. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
1. For the next year:
Angusmclellan ( talk · contribs) is thanked by the committee for serving admirably as PHG's mentor, and it is hoped that he will continue to serve in that capacity.
Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 20:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
2. ArbCom renews the topic ban from the PHG arbitration. Per Honor et Gloria ( talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, and Hellenistic India—all broadly defined. This topic ban will last for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion.
Enacted ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 20:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
2.1. Per Honor et Gloria ( talk · contribs) is prohibited from creating new articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire;all broadly defined. This restriction will last for a period of one year.