This case is now closed and pages relating to it may no longer be watched
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Case clerks: Seddon ( Talk) & Penwhale ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Kirill Lokshin ( Talk) & AGK ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Here's an idea;
I've been looking at the Tea Party case that this committee just closed - especially the final decision they issued therein. I think that half that stuff (especially to do with the definition of what Wikipedia is, decorum and the use of talk pages) could be just as applicable to this case. Think of that, when deliberating over final decisions and principles to be drawn up.
-- The Historian ( talk) 13:20, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
In this edit, arbitrator Salvio giuliano posed questions to Morwen and David Gerard and I am concerned that they both contain unstated assumptions which suggest Salvio might have prejudged this case. The question to Morwen asks about the initial move occurring "without following the appropriate process". Are editors no longer supposed to move articles to more appropriate names if someone might disagree? What happened to being bold? Doesn't BLP direct us to act quickly? The question aserts that a single approach to the move is appropriate, it is something that is certainly arguable and the assumptions need to be recognised. The question to David is even worse: apparently "invoking BLP is not enough to freeze the situation as is until a consensus develops to change it: unless the BLP concerns are immediately evident – and, in this case, they were not". They might not be immediately evident to you, Salvio, but they would have been to anyone with even a moderate understanding of transgender issues, or after a brief read of Wikipedia's own article on transgenderism where it states "when referring to a transgender person, it is respectful to always use that person's preferred name and pronoun regardless of their legal gender status." Your question appears directed towards excusing Tariqabjotu's move through protection without engaging in the BLP issue. Surely no admin should be moving a move protected page with an assertion of BLP without checking on it? Salvio, I am disturbed that you have appear to have a preformed view on this case, possibly one that you have not recognised. EdChem ( talk) 15:24, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the question for Morwen, I submit that both Wikipedia:Requested moves and WP:TITLECHANGES state Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made. Morwen, quite clearly, did not do this and I am asking her to clarify why she decided to act in that way. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Tariqabjotu, I have formed a view on this case, and I do think you should be sanctioned, but this thread was about the wording of Salvio's questions including implicit assumptions that Morwen and David acted wrongly. There is no problem with my coming to this case with a view formed from the events as I do not have the role of an arbitrator. Salvio does have that role, and I was disturbed that the questions seemed to me to not be impartial. When I read them, my initial reaction was that they were leading and reflected an already formed view. I was concerned and decided to express my concern. Your response takes my comments about BLP concerns and an assertion of BLP and turns them into an allegation of a BLP violation. I recognise there is an arguable point here. The closing admins erred, in my view, in evaluating competing policy and in particular in using narrow interpretation of policy which should be read broadly, but I do not doubt they acted in good faith. I would like ArbCom to emphasise that it is spirit and principles of policy rather than exact wordings that matter, and that BLP in particular has broad applicability in all spaces. In short, I am not suggesting that my view is the only reasonable or arguable one, and I am not claiming that "the BLP violation claim is an undeniable assertion (at least to those who, paraphrasing here, aren't clueless)" (as you put it). I am stating that recognising there was and is an issue over naming where BLP is a relevant consideration should have been obvious to you (amongst others) and that acting without investigating a claim of a BLP issue and using tools through move protection was unjustified and reckless. EdChem ( talk) 17:25, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Tariqabjotu, the RM and close do not corroborate that there is not a BLP issue.The precise words you contested were that "unless the BLP concerns are immediately evident – and, in this case, they were not". That is what I am talking about. In context, here, it is obvious those "BLP concerns" were the idea that the name Bradley Manning constituted a BLP violation. If those BLP concerns were immediately evident, we wouldn't have had scores of established editors arguing that "Bradley Manning" didn't constitute a BLP violation. If those BLP concerns were immediately evident, the closing admins wouldn't have moved the page back to Bradley Manning. As I said, continuing to argue that the name "Bradley Manning" is undeniably a BLP violation is unhelpful and, further, disrespectful to those who have disagreed and whose opinion on that point seems to have prevailed at this point. -- tariqabjotu 17:38, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Someone may want to look at the definition of a "BLP Violation". In many venues, when someone refers to a "BLP Violation" they are referring specifically to a WP:BLPSOURCES violation, and not to the rest of BLP Policy. WP:BLPSOURCES is the portion of the policy that most often comes up in terms of blocks, reverts, and edit warring. Its also the section of the policy where enforcement can be exempt from WP:3rr and WP:WHEEL. However in this dispute, and another recent one, "BLP Violation" has been used to describe anything that doesn't follow any portion of the policy. Monty 845 16:25, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I suppose its a forlorn hope expecting that people would wait for the evidence to come in before making proposals for the final, but this has only been open a couple of days and we have a couple of sets of principles to discuss already. How about trying for some decorum and waiting at least a week before letting the rhetoric flow? Alternatively, wouldn't it be better for a clerk to lock the page until a case has been open for a decent time? If I weren't already in despair for this place, I would be now. Spartaz Humbug! 05:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Under: "Questions to the parties"
"As far as I was concerned, trans naming stuff was a settled issue, and I did not anticipate quite how controversial it would be among experienced users and editors."
Im sorry but I just have to say that the issue with Bradley Manning had been a hot debate here in the United States and around the world, there are many who believe that Manning was innocent and as a result I suspect that some of the emotions may have got mixed in as well. Anyways yes it was controversial, it was controversial worldwide with Manning's arrest and was controversial here on Wikipedia that went beyond just trans naming stuff. So my question is how can you go and say you had no idea that this would turn into a powder keg? - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 02:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
I have asked a question on UltraExactZZ talkpage that other editors here may wish to answer. I wasn't sure where the best place to ask it other than "not here". 204.101.237.139 ( talk) 17:08, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Note that I've just blocked User:Haipa Doragon for his blatant attempts to out another Wikipedian on the workshop page. Please do not try to reveal anyone's personal information here. Mark Arsten ( talk) 03:52, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
I really don't understand the processes here, but:
Talk:Alexis_Reich#Requested_move_16_September_2013 - David Gerard ( talk) 08:02, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee wishes to remind administrators and editors that standard discretionary sanctions were authorised for all articles dealing with transgender issues in the Sexology case. I would remind editors that it relates to any sustained and aggressive point-of-view editing, whatever ones viewpoint. Seddon talk 15:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Against my better judgment, and because I'm troubled that nobody has set them up as proposals, I've entered a few proposed findings and principles on the Workshop page. This presents a wrinkle I want to acknowledge, which is that I've separately on my blog been covering the issue of Wikipedia's handling of this issue, and that's gotten a reasonably high profile (it's had 9000 page views to date, and has been linked by several high profile trans activists). I am almost certain to write another post about the resolution of the arbitration case. My posts have been explicitly activist, and side firmly with the position that misgendering or misnaming Chelsea Manning constitutes hate speech.
I have been careful in my covering of the issue to caution against canvassing and to make it clear that I am actively opposed to marshalling my readers into any sort of direct action. I have acknowledged my involvement in the issue, and I will continue to do so in future articles. And I am not (and will not) attempt any sort of self-promotion of my blog on the wiki, and whatever criticism I have made on the blog of various people involved in this dispute, I am not involving myself in seeking any sort of sanction against any of them. Furthermore, while my writing on the subject has been harsh, it has consisted purely of analysis of the arguments made and of the larger social attitudes they represent, and I do not believe anything I have said constitutes an off-wiki personal attack.
I believe this satisfies the various policy concerns with such off-wiki behavior. Nevertheless, I want to publicly acknowledge that I am simultaneously involved in this issue not just as a Wikipedia editor but as a writer and blogger, and to open the door to any discussion the community may wish to have over the appropriateness of this. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 05:48, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
As further care along these lines, I've symbolically posted (and then removed, as I don't actually want it here) the blog post to my userpage, so as to remove any possible issue of it being off-wiki conduct. Which is to say, if anybody does find anything I've said on the blog post to be objectionable, I am fine with it being submitted as evidence. [1] is the diff. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 20:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
These don't really fit into the findings template, but I'd like to get your opinions, and feel free to add your own questions: Ananiujitha ( talk) 19:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I can't really be sure. I think the move-back was the wrong move. I get the impression that problems, some of which arbcom can't resolve, included:
I get the impression that the policy disputes would still be a problem, but perhaps easier to address. Ananiujitha ( talk) 19:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I can see that this kind of move dispute could happen again. I hope that preparing an faq aimed at similar disputes could at least help with unfamiliarity with trans issues, and could provide context for disagreements over the implications of choosing different names. Ananiujitha ( talk) 19:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I stopped paying attention to this page several days ago when literally all I saw were people a) suggesting proposals that would never in a thousand years be passed and b) bickering till the cows came home about those proposals. I might read it eventually if the rest of the Arbs convince me that there are worthwhile nuggets of information, but that seems unlikely at this point. NW ( Talk) 17:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
I would think at the very least that reading Sue Gardner's proposals would be a common sense good idea. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 00:54, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, just base the proposed decision on my posted principles, the case can then be closed tomorrow :) .
Count Iblis (
talk) 20:58, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
The Proposed decision page starts by "After considering /Evidence and discussing proposals with other Arbitrators, parties and others at /Workshop, Arbitrators may place proposals which are ready for voting here". Thus User:NuclearWarfare should retract, resign or be ousted for perjury. Pldx1 ( talk) 09:35, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I do not know if it is related but the article Alexis Reich was deleted. "G10: Attack page or negative unsourced BLP: very serious problems regarding multiple persons and BLP1E issues re " - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 20:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
I see this huge list Krill has going down a list of editors of what they said and how it relates, well what about the other side of the coin here? I feel that this is being more left out. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 22:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
The Evidence page is approaching 700KB and is loads slow for me, there a way to collapse some of the chat? Even if the section is closed soon, it will improve the readability. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 03:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Would it be possible for a clerk to remove empty sections, such as Finding of Fact, Principles, and Remedy? This page is getting long. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm worried that ARBCOM is trying to move quickly to beat the 30 day limit imposed on the next move discussion. I'm worried they will take actions that will make things worse rather than better. Not sure if those worries are justified, but let me spell what I think ARBCOM should not be doing...
The most important one is don't try to move BM back to CM (or prevent that move). Let the community deal with it. And don't try to put your hand on the scale. There are two reasons. First of all this is a content issue and ARBCOM should not touch it, not even for a BLP issue. Secondly, one only has to look at Roe v. Wade to get a sense how badly being activist can hurt the community in the long term. And frankly, in this case, I'm now fairly sure that the community will move this to CM. WP:COMMONNAME is now leaning that way and that was the only major argument otherwise. Plus I believe people have a better sense of trans issues. Let the community do this.
Now that said, if you want to expire the 30-day moratorium early, that's probably okay, though I'd suggest you just let it go (again, could be viewed as putting your hand on the scale).
I'd also suggest, for quite different reasons, that none of the main players here be blocked, desysoped or the like. I think they all were acting in good faith and in the heat of the moment. I'd hope this has been a learning experience for those involved and the community as a whole. Letting people know what they should have done would be helpful and various levels of WP:FISH are quite reasonable.
Finally, please do provide some kind of guidelines about how edits claiming BLP should be treated. My personal preference remains:
But if you go with something else, that's fine. I do think ARBCOM needs to make it clear how to handle this (though without such weight the community can't revise it if consensus to do so can be found). Thanks. Hobit ( talk) 13:08, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Iterating suggestion made at the TPm case that the "boilerplate" be worded simply. Also note that the TPm "decision" is likely the worst imaginable precedent for any decision here. Collect ( talk) 14:09, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Re BLP: WP:BLP is a strong policy requiring removal of possible violations of that policy, and unless there is a finding that a person deliberately sought to abuse that policy (that is, as long as the person can reasonably state that they were seeking to follow that policy), they ought not be sanctioned in any way), the onus is absolutely on those adding material to BLPs or articles falling under that policy to demonstrate that their addition does not violate the policy. Collect ( talk) 14:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
There are some proposed findings on the Workshop page which accuse a number of editors of engaging in speech that is discriminatory towards transgender people. There also some proposed findings that accuse other editors of using discriminatory or hatemongering language to describe statements by others (i.e. "transphobic" or "hatespeech") that may not be in agreement the position taken by transgender activists, who have apparently been active in this topic debate. The thing the Committee needs to remember is that if they pass a finding that any editor here has engaged in discriminatory language or hatespeak, it may have real-world consequences on that person's career or social reputation. If someone Googles their name and find this case finding, and their account name is linked to their real name, as mine is, it could make them unemployable.
Those of you who remember your philosophy classes in college know that in order to make assertions on truth, a definition needs to be established on the concept that one is expounding. Kirill Lokshin has done this by stating a definition of what discrimination is. The natural follow-on to this would be to take each person's statement(s) and, word by word, debate whether their statements meet the definition of discrimination. Unless there is clear consensus that their statement meets the concept of discrimination as defined, then you have to let them go. The consequences for their personal lives are otherwise too serious to play around this stuff. This needs to be done with everyone who has been accused of saying something improper. Cla68 ( talk) 11:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
In case anyone working on the workshop is not aware, a proposed decision for the case has now been posted on the proposed decision page. The arbitrators are now discussing and voting on the decision.
The workshop page is still open, but realistically, I suspect that the arbitrators will now be focusing their attention on the proposed decision page. Only arbitrators can edit the proposed decision, but other editors are welcome to comment on the talkpage. Comments about the proposed decision are much more likely at this point to be seen if posted there, rather than on the very long workshop page. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:31, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I have read the entire (insert applicable adjective) page entitled "Workshop." It so heavily involves content issues and other issues outside the reasonable remit of the ArbCom that I shall not post there. Rather, I here make what I consider to be salient points.
I expect this will receive the same consideration and discussion as most of the current Workshop page is due. The prmary goal of Wikipedia is to produce an encyclopedia which serves its readers. Collect ( talk) 11:46, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I have locked the workshop page now that the proposed decision has been posted and is well into voting. If there is a specific proposal that you feel is "missing" from the proposed decision, please initiate a discussion at the proposed decision talk page. I will also note that the absurd length of the workshop means that many editors on slower connections find it nearly impossible to open the page. Risker ( talk) 03:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
This case is now closed and pages relating to it may no longer be watched
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Case clerks: Seddon ( Talk) & Penwhale ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Kirill Lokshin ( Talk) & AGK ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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|
Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Here's an idea;
I've been looking at the Tea Party case that this committee just closed - especially the final decision they issued therein. I think that half that stuff (especially to do with the definition of what Wikipedia is, decorum and the use of talk pages) could be just as applicable to this case. Think of that, when deliberating over final decisions and principles to be drawn up.
-- The Historian ( talk) 13:20, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
In this edit, arbitrator Salvio giuliano posed questions to Morwen and David Gerard and I am concerned that they both contain unstated assumptions which suggest Salvio might have prejudged this case. The question to Morwen asks about the initial move occurring "without following the appropriate process". Are editors no longer supposed to move articles to more appropriate names if someone might disagree? What happened to being bold? Doesn't BLP direct us to act quickly? The question aserts that a single approach to the move is appropriate, it is something that is certainly arguable and the assumptions need to be recognised. The question to David is even worse: apparently "invoking BLP is not enough to freeze the situation as is until a consensus develops to change it: unless the BLP concerns are immediately evident – and, in this case, they were not". They might not be immediately evident to you, Salvio, but they would have been to anyone with even a moderate understanding of transgender issues, or after a brief read of Wikipedia's own article on transgenderism where it states "when referring to a transgender person, it is respectful to always use that person's preferred name and pronoun regardless of their legal gender status." Your question appears directed towards excusing Tariqabjotu's move through protection without engaging in the BLP issue. Surely no admin should be moving a move protected page with an assertion of BLP without checking on it? Salvio, I am disturbed that you have appear to have a preformed view on this case, possibly one that you have not recognised. EdChem ( talk) 15:24, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the question for Morwen, I submit that both Wikipedia:Requested moves and WP:TITLECHANGES state Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made. Morwen, quite clearly, did not do this and I am asking her to clarify why she decided to act in that way. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Tariqabjotu, I have formed a view on this case, and I do think you should be sanctioned, but this thread was about the wording of Salvio's questions including implicit assumptions that Morwen and David acted wrongly. There is no problem with my coming to this case with a view formed from the events as I do not have the role of an arbitrator. Salvio does have that role, and I was disturbed that the questions seemed to me to not be impartial. When I read them, my initial reaction was that they were leading and reflected an already formed view. I was concerned and decided to express my concern. Your response takes my comments about BLP concerns and an assertion of BLP and turns them into an allegation of a BLP violation. I recognise there is an arguable point here. The closing admins erred, in my view, in evaluating competing policy and in particular in using narrow interpretation of policy which should be read broadly, but I do not doubt they acted in good faith. I would like ArbCom to emphasise that it is spirit and principles of policy rather than exact wordings that matter, and that BLP in particular has broad applicability in all spaces. In short, I am not suggesting that my view is the only reasonable or arguable one, and I am not claiming that "the BLP violation claim is an undeniable assertion (at least to those who, paraphrasing here, aren't clueless)" (as you put it). I am stating that recognising there was and is an issue over naming where BLP is a relevant consideration should have been obvious to you (amongst others) and that acting without investigating a claim of a BLP issue and using tools through move protection was unjustified and reckless. EdChem ( talk) 17:25, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Tariqabjotu, the RM and close do not corroborate that there is not a BLP issue.The precise words you contested were that "unless the BLP concerns are immediately evident – and, in this case, they were not". That is what I am talking about. In context, here, it is obvious those "BLP concerns" were the idea that the name Bradley Manning constituted a BLP violation. If those BLP concerns were immediately evident, we wouldn't have had scores of established editors arguing that "Bradley Manning" didn't constitute a BLP violation. If those BLP concerns were immediately evident, the closing admins wouldn't have moved the page back to Bradley Manning. As I said, continuing to argue that the name "Bradley Manning" is undeniably a BLP violation is unhelpful and, further, disrespectful to those who have disagreed and whose opinion on that point seems to have prevailed at this point. -- tariqabjotu 17:38, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Someone may want to look at the definition of a "BLP Violation". In many venues, when someone refers to a "BLP Violation" they are referring specifically to a WP:BLPSOURCES violation, and not to the rest of BLP Policy. WP:BLPSOURCES is the portion of the policy that most often comes up in terms of blocks, reverts, and edit warring. Its also the section of the policy where enforcement can be exempt from WP:3rr and WP:WHEEL. However in this dispute, and another recent one, "BLP Violation" has been used to describe anything that doesn't follow any portion of the policy. Monty 845 16:25, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I suppose its a forlorn hope expecting that people would wait for the evidence to come in before making proposals for the final, but this has only been open a couple of days and we have a couple of sets of principles to discuss already. How about trying for some decorum and waiting at least a week before letting the rhetoric flow? Alternatively, wouldn't it be better for a clerk to lock the page until a case has been open for a decent time? If I weren't already in despair for this place, I would be now. Spartaz Humbug! 05:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Under: "Questions to the parties"
"As far as I was concerned, trans naming stuff was a settled issue, and I did not anticipate quite how controversial it would be among experienced users and editors."
Im sorry but I just have to say that the issue with Bradley Manning had been a hot debate here in the United States and around the world, there are many who believe that Manning was innocent and as a result I suspect that some of the emotions may have got mixed in as well. Anyways yes it was controversial, it was controversial worldwide with Manning's arrest and was controversial here on Wikipedia that went beyond just trans naming stuff. So my question is how can you go and say you had no idea that this would turn into a powder keg? - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 02:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
I have asked a question on UltraExactZZ talkpage that other editors here may wish to answer. I wasn't sure where the best place to ask it other than "not here". 204.101.237.139 ( talk) 17:08, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Note that I've just blocked User:Haipa Doragon for his blatant attempts to out another Wikipedian on the workshop page. Please do not try to reveal anyone's personal information here. Mark Arsten ( talk) 03:52, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
I really don't understand the processes here, but:
Talk:Alexis_Reich#Requested_move_16_September_2013 - David Gerard ( talk) 08:02, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee wishes to remind administrators and editors that standard discretionary sanctions were authorised for all articles dealing with transgender issues in the Sexology case. I would remind editors that it relates to any sustained and aggressive point-of-view editing, whatever ones viewpoint. Seddon talk 15:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Against my better judgment, and because I'm troubled that nobody has set them up as proposals, I've entered a few proposed findings and principles on the Workshop page. This presents a wrinkle I want to acknowledge, which is that I've separately on my blog been covering the issue of Wikipedia's handling of this issue, and that's gotten a reasonably high profile (it's had 9000 page views to date, and has been linked by several high profile trans activists). I am almost certain to write another post about the resolution of the arbitration case. My posts have been explicitly activist, and side firmly with the position that misgendering or misnaming Chelsea Manning constitutes hate speech.
I have been careful in my covering of the issue to caution against canvassing and to make it clear that I am actively opposed to marshalling my readers into any sort of direct action. I have acknowledged my involvement in the issue, and I will continue to do so in future articles. And I am not (and will not) attempt any sort of self-promotion of my blog on the wiki, and whatever criticism I have made on the blog of various people involved in this dispute, I am not involving myself in seeking any sort of sanction against any of them. Furthermore, while my writing on the subject has been harsh, it has consisted purely of analysis of the arguments made and of the larger social attitudes they represent, and I do not believe anything I have said constitutes an off-wiki personal attack.
I believe this satisfies the various policy concerns with such off-wiki behavior. Nevertheless, I want to publicly acknowledge that I am simultaneously involved in this issue not just as a Wikipedia editor but as a writer and blogger, and to open the door to any discussion the community may wish to have over the appropriateness of this. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 05:48, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
As further care along these lines, I've symbolically posted (and then removed, as I don't actually want it here) the blog post to my userpage, so as to remove any possible issue of it being off-wiki conduct. Which is to say, if anybody does find anything I've said on the blog post to be objectionable, I am fine with it being submitted as evidence. [1] is the diff. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 20:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
These don't really fit into the findings template, but I'd like to get your opinions, and feel free to add your own questions: Ananiujitha ( talk) 19:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I can't really be sure. I think the move-back was the wrong move. I get the impression that problems, some of which arbcom can't resolve, included:
I get the impression that the policy disputes would still be a problem, but perhaps easier to address. Ananiujitha ( talk) 19:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I can see that this kind of move dispute could happen again. I hope that preparing an faq aimed at similar disputes could at least help with unfamiliarity with trans issues, and could provide context for disagreements over the implications of choosing different names. Ananiujitha ( talk) 19:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I stopped paying attention to this page several days ago when literally all I saw were people a) suggesting proposals that would never in a thousand years be passed and b) bickering till the cows came home about those proposals. I might read it eventually if the rest of the Arbs convince me that there are worthwhile nuggets of information, but that seems unlikely at this point. NW ( Talk) 17:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
I would think at the very least that reading Sue Gardner's proposals would be a common sense good idea. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 00:54, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, just base the proposed decision on my posted principles, the case can then be closed tomorrow :) .
Count Iblis (
talk) 20:58, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
The Proposed decision page starts by "After considering /Evidence and discussing proposals with other Arbitrators, parties and others at /Workshop, Arbitrators may place proposals which are ready for voting here". Thus User:NuclearWarfare should retract, resign or be ousted for perjury. Pldx1 ( talk) 09:35, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I do not know if it is related but the article Alexis Reich was deleted. "G10: Attack page or negative unsourced BLP: very serious problems regarding multiple persons and BLP1E issues re " - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 20:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
I see this huge list Krill has going down a list of editors of what they said and how it relates, well what about the other side of the coin here? I feel that this is being more left out. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 22:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
The Evidence page is approaching 700KB and is loads slow for me, there a way to collapse some of the chat? Even if the section is closed soon, it will improve the readability. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 03:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Would it be possible for a clerk to remove empty sections, such as Finding of Fact, Principles, and Remedy? This page is getting long. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm worried that ARBCOM is trying to move quickly to beat the 30 day limit imposed on the next move discussion. I'm worried they will take actions that will make things worse rather than better. Not sure if those worries are justified, but let me spell what I think ARBCOM should not be doing...
The most important one is don't try to move BM back to CM (or prevent that move). Let the community deal with it. And don't try to put your hand on the scale. There are two reasons. First of all this is a content issue and ARBCOM should not touch it, not even for a BLP issue. Secondly, one only has to look at Roe v. Wade to get a sense how badly being activist can hurt the community in the long term. And frankly, in this case, I'm now fairly sure that the community will move this to CM. WP:COMMONNAME is now leaning that way and that was the only major argument otherwise. Plus I believe people have a better sense of trans issues. Let the community do this.
Now that said, if you want to expire the 30-day moratorium early, that's probably okay, though I'd suggest you just let it go (again, could be viewed as putting your hand on the scale).
I'd also suggest, for quite different reasons, that none of the main players here be blocked, desysoped or the like. I think they all were acting in good faith and in the heat of the moment. I'd hope this has been a learning experience for those involved and the community as a whole. Letting people know what they should have done would be helpful and various levels of WP:FISH are quite reasonable.
Finally, please do provide some kind of guidelines about how edits claiming BLP should be treated. My personal preference remains:
But if you go with something else, that's fine. I do think ARBCOM needs to make it clear how to handle this (though without such weight the community can't revise it if consensus to do so can be found). Thanks. Hobit ( talk) 13:08, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Iterating suggestion made at the TPm case that the "boilerplate" be worded simply. Also note that the TPm "decision" is likely the worst imaginable precedent for any decision here. Collect ( talk) 14:09, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Re BLP: WP:BLP is a strong policy requiring removal of possible violations of that policy, and unless there is a finding that a person deliberately sought to abuse that policy (that is, as long as the person can reasonably state that they were seeking to follow that policy), they ought not be sanctioned in any way), the onus is absolutely on those adding material to BLPs or articles falling under that policy to demonstrate that their addition does not violate the policy. Collect ( talk) 14:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
There are some proposed findings on the Workshop page which accuse a number of editors of engaging in speech that is discriminatory towards transgender people. There also some proposed findings that accuse other editors of using discriminatory or hatemongering language to describe statements by others (i.e. "transphobic" or "hatespeech") that may not be in agreement the position taken by transgender activists, who have apparently been active in this topic debate. The thing the Committee needs to remember is that if they pass a finding that any editor here has engaged in discriminatory language or hatespeak, it may have real-world consequences on that person's career or social reputation. If someone Googles their name and find this case finding, and their account name is linked to their real name, as mine is, it could make them unemployable.
Those of you who remember your philosophy classes in college know that in order to make assertions on truth, a definition needs to be established on the concept that one is expounding. Kirill Lokshin has done this by stating a definition of what discrimination is. The natural follow-on to this would be to take each person's statement(s) and, word by word, debate whether their statements meet the definition of discrimination. Unless there is clear consensus that their statement meets the concept of discrimination as defined, then you have to let them go. The consequences for their personal lives are otherwise too serious to play around this stuff. This needs to be done with everyone who has been accused of saying something improper. Cla68 ( talk) 11:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
In case anyone working on the workshop is not aware, a proposed decision for the case has now been posted on the proposed decision page. The arbitrators are now discussing and voting on the decision.
The workshop page is still open, but realistically, I suspect that the arbitrators will now be focusing their attention on the proposed decision page. Only arbitrators can edit the proposed decision, but other editors are welcome to comment on the talkpage. Comments about the proposed decision are much more likely at this point to be seen if posted there, rather than on the very long workshop page. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 21:31, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I have read the entire (insert applicable adjective) page entitled "Workshop." It so heavily involves content issues and other issues outside the reasonable remit of the ArbCom that I shall not post there. Rather, I here make what I consider to be salient points.
I expect this will receive the same consideration and discussion as most of the current Workshop page is due. The prmary goal of Wikipedia is to produce an encyclopedia which serves its readers. Collect ( talk) 11:46, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I have locked the workshop page now that the proposed decision has been posted and is well into voting. If there is a specific proposal that you feel is "missing" from the proposed decision, please initiate a discussion at the proposed decision talk page. I will also note that the absurd length of the workshop means that many editors on slower connections find it nearly impossible to open the page. Risker ( talk) 03:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)