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    I wanted you to take a look at this article, which I believe is problematic in many way as it romanticises a legendary folklore as history. As TrangaBellam ( talk · contribs) is aware, unfortunately a lot of India-related articles on Wikipedia are a victim of this. I would like to see this being dealt with, as majority of the information is not from reliable sources at all. It seems to be a way of presenting legends in the guise of a reliable historical article, and this is very clear to see for those who are familiar with the romanticisation of historical conflicts in India. Muydivertido ( talk) 14:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Maybe this is the wrong noticeboard, but what is TRIZ? The lead is very promo-y and this article cites lots and lots of self-published stuff. Zanahary ( talk) 06:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Based on a quick read, I don't think this is a fringe theory...just a very poorly-written article about a quirky/fad engineering-psychology method. Not my field, so I'm probably not the one to improve the article. WeirdNAnnoyed ( talk) 14:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    It's a method that gained enough prevalence to keep getting works published about it decades after its inception. By definition full of jargon and difficult to define in a way useful to anyone not already embedded in marketing. There are some sources in Russian. Also see Category:TRIZ and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject TRIZ Ontology. Recon rabbit 14:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Hello! I'm not normally a contributor but this jumped out at me because my college professor was very heavily involved in this/ the creation of I-TRIZ. It's not fringe as opposed to a framework for rapidly attempting to solve a problem by using past ideas in a modular fashion. From what I'm seeing of the article, it doesn't look great. So please let me know if I can help improve this. 47.42.9.179 ( talk) 07:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    If you can rewrite, for example, the article lead, so that it is comprehensible, that would be great ꧁ Zanahary⁠꧂ 13:09, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Will make an account and do my best. Like I said I typically don't contribute and was only here reading stuff on a whim. But I'm like one of the 5 people who's ever actually worked with this stuff so I figured I'd throw in. 47.42.9.179 ( talk) 17:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    That would really be helpful. Feel free to ask me via my talk page if you need any help. ꧁ Zanahary⁠꧂ 18:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    About two months ago, there was an apparent consensus that this is a fringe topic, without sufficient sourcing to keep in mainspace, and it was draftified. An IP editor has been repeatedly attempting to reintroduce it to mainspace without fixing the problems. Based on a talk page comment, I tried to change it from a draft, to a "redirect with history" ( [1]), but the IP keeps reverting it back into mainspace.

    I'd like to get some more opinions about what to do with this page. If it seems unlikely that the content can be appropriately sourced, perhaps it should either be made into a semi-protected redirect, or be taken to a deletion discussion and WP:SALTed. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Next, relativistic medicine and galaxy-scale water memory. AFD and SALT. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 20:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Taken by Headbomb to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nano-ayurvedic medicine. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Its self promo. Various IPs have been adding random Lopus, M references for a long while. Check everything the original author of this article (based on the fringe works of Lopus M) contributed before starting the article. Only adding Lopus, M references. Do a search for articles referencing them, and find one where it wasn't added by an IP or an account dedicated to promoting the works of Lopus, M, i.e. [2] 12.75.41.67 ( talk) 23:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Sentient (intelligence analysis system)

    WP:PRIMARY sources assembled to showcase selected memos and documents discussing details of a classified system used to look for UFOs [3]. I could be mistaken, but unless WP:SECONDARY sources have commented on this, such a lavishly detailed assembly is WP:OR. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 21:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    I just deleted the last section from the Sentient article. All sources were primary, and the whole thing was focused on a redacted document that was nearly incomprehensible, severely WP:UNDUE even if accurate. And we just shouldn't be circulating vague bits of intelligence noise like this, it's jet fuel for the engines of conspiracism. WeirdNAnnoyed ( talk) 02:57, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Agree. The more I look at these additions the more I see classic WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 13:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    "Confidence is relatively low...may warrant further investigation..." This is not the kind of content we need anywhere on WP, let alone in a direct quote. Utter garbage, cherry-picked for maximum apophenia. These edits should all be reverted, IMO. WeirdNAnnoyed ( talk) 01:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Alina Chan

    Alina Chan (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Note that the latest entry into "The New York Times focuses on fringe and ignores the mainstream" seems to be extremely well-represented on this WP:FRINGEBLP. I am not sure how much emphasis we are supposed to be placing on Chan's Lab Leak claims (and some of the ones mentioned are exceedingly misleading and others are demonstrably incorrect). There is no attempt to find WP:SECONDARY sources which identify Chan's ideas as being prominent or worthy of inclusion at Wikipedia. Instead, it is all sourced solely to her OpEd. jps ( talk) 16:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    In short, is this now becoming a WP:COATrack? jps ( talk) 16:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Fringe claims from somebody with a book to sell, and little relevant scientific standing (and not even in the same universe at WP:MEDRS sourcing required for pronouncements about biomedicince). WP:FRINGESUBJECTS tells us what to do. Bon courage ( talk) 17:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Addition of language excusing fringe material on Lara Logan

    On Lara Logan material language was added that looks like trying to soften reporting of fringe material like "Despite some media fuss around the original" and "Fauci's unquestioning support for the experimental vaccine" despite not being in the sources (and also took part of reference name for no reason) 2001:8003:3FB4:CF00:2973:401E:A175:B587 ( talk) 02:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Note the removal of the "Anti" in "Anti-Defamation League" at one point. Red flag much? - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 07:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    It's not the "Anti" that was removed, only the "A". Obviously a misclick/typo. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 09:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Ok, the difference viewer may have misled me. Their edits are still not constructive, however. - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 21:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Right. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 06:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Linguistics and the Book of Mormon

    Linguistics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon doesn't appear to have any references about the topic of linguistics and the Book of Mormon. I considered removing pieces, but I'm not sure if any of it belongs, and whether the book of mormon is a topic in linguistics at all. Thoughts? 2600:1700:F990:C190:43BD:7A77:E1FF:CC65 ( talk) 02:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Even when I've contributed in Book of Mormon topics, linguistics and the Book of Mormon is an article I've generally kept a wide berth from because I think the way it's set up draws out apologetics and counter-apologetics that mire the page in WP:OR and back-and-forth. Consider how many citations are either to the Book of Mormon itself (hypothetically fine for verifying quotations, but in too many cases whole paragraphs are supported by it), to texts written by denominational leaders (Studies of the Book of Mormon has a 1985 publication date, but it was written more than half a century earlier, by B. H. Roberts, a member of the Latter-day Saint ecclesiastical hierarchy, as a denominationally commissioned study; there's also a citation to the Journal of Discourses which was a 19th-century anthology of Latter-day Saint sermons), to denominational websites (like strangite.org), to Evangelical 'countercult' apologetics (like Utah Lighthouse Ministry), and to Guns, Germs, and Steel which is not a book that mentions the Book of Mormon at all (and while popular is an outdated source for understanding early modern European–American contact; Diamond gives altogether too much credit to guns and steel and not enough to local alliances and politics). There's even a paragraph that as near as I can tell is subtweeting an intra-denominational disagreement about what the specific miraculous mechanics of Smith's would have been. (The paragraph including the sentence However, as Whitmer was never directly involved in the translation and Harris was involved for only a brief period of time, Mormon apologists consider it unlikely that either of these accounts is as accurate as the accounts of Smith and Cowdery.; casting doubt on Whitmer's recollection of the dictation process is a subtle 'dog whistle' for lay skepticism of the academic consensus that Smith looked at a seer stone—a folk magical practice in early-nineteenth-century New England—for a significant amount of his dictation of the Book of Mormon.)
    Speaking as someone who has read interesting and academically valid scholarship about the Book of Mormon in the history of the 19th century, in religious studies, and in literary studies, published by university presses like Princeton and Oxford and in peer-reviewed journals—what's being cited and summarized in the current version of Linguistics and the Book of Mormon isn't that.
    whether the book of mormon is a topic in linguistics at all: I'm not really sure. There's certainly academic observations about its language—intertextuality with the King James Bible and the use of nonstandard English in the first edition, for instance—but I don't know whether that rises to being linguistics. There's the matter of hemispheric interpretations of the Book of Mormon, popular in the Latter Day Saint movement well into the twentieth century, not making sense alongside the reality of Native American language diversity. But that's also not so much a linguistic study of the Book of Mormon as much as an observation about how something known through linguistics renders implausible the historicity of the Book of Mormon under hemispheric premises. Personally, the whole trifecta of archaeology and the Book of Mormon, genetics and the Book of Mormon, and linguistics and the Book of Mormon seem to me like unproductive forks that tend to encourage editors to get into the weeds of restating apologetics and counter-apologetics, rather than concisely summarizing academic interpretations. I'm not sure what an improved version of the article would look like. Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 09:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Wow, The relationship between linguistics and the Book of Mormon is two-fold. This is as bad as those grad-student-y LGBT articles. ꧁ Zanahary⁠꧂ 13:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    as bad as those grad-student-y LGBT articles: I'm pretty unimpressed with this linguistics and the Book of Mormon article too (see my criticism of it above), but I don't really see what that has to do with making a swipe at either editors who are graduate students or at LGBT studies articles on Wikipedia. Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 17:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    It’s just an earnest comparison: this reminds me of the LGBT-topic articles I’ve come across that seem to have been written by people with a background in academic writing and not encyclopedic writing. ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 22:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    This feels like one of those articles that's probably deserving of an AfD but is so laden with sources and general inertia that it'd never fly, WP:VERIFY be damned. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I've cleaned up the intro a little bit, but there's a lot to unpack there. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    WP:TNT? Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 19:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    "With articles, this is the TNT tipping point argument: if the article's content is useless (including all the versions in history) but the title might be useful"
    Would it though? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Wouldn't Linguistics of the Book of Mormon be better? ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 22:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Linguistic historicity of the Book of Mormon? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:16, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Sounds good. Open an RM? ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 22:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I'm not sure what will be gained from moving the article to a different title when the notability, reliability, or due-ness of the content itself remains under question. Is it a sufficiently vast topic that it warrants a split into a whole article? I'm not sure what's of encyclopedic interest in the realm of linguistics and the Book of Mormon beyond the matter of Native American languages having no connection to the ancient Egyptian the Book of Mormon claims or the ancient Semitic languages its narrative would imply, and of being so diverse they could not have emerged in the short time frame the Book of Mormon would require, and those seem like content that can be (and are) summarized in parent articles. (I'm also not sure "linguistic historicity" as a title will be any less likely to attract apologetics in content and sourcing than the current title.) Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 23:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I agree, as much as I suggested an alternative title I think the article doesn't warrant being here. We don't have an equivalent one for other major religious texts, and the better place for this is Historicity of the Book of Mormon. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 09:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    There probably could be 'equivalent' articles for other major religious texts—A GoogleScholar search makes me think Linguistics and the Bible seems very plausible. But with Linguistics and the Book of Mormon, the same approach inspires less confidence in the topic's notability as an independent article in Wikipedia terms, there being only one genuine hit (the top result, "Historical Linguistics", which is to an interview, albeit journal-published but an interview nonetheless, with an author of a book that had been quite negatively reviewed in the journal's previous edition; the other hits below it are to database pages that simply also link to the same article). Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 10:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I still think it just would fall into a subset of historicity, personally, but I could be wrong. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don't think linguistic analysis of the Bible is solely limited to the question of the historicity of its contents; from quickly scanning some of the GoogleScholar hits it seems to play a role in the history of biblical hermeneutics (part of the reception history of the Bible), in study of its grammar, in translation studies approaches, in philosophical metaphysics, and in more. Such are far afield from historicity questions like 'was David a real king'. Meanwhile, with the Book of Mormon it does seem like what's there linguistically be folded into a parent article like historicity of the Book of Mormon, since I'm not sure what there is beyond the two observations about Indigenous languages, which are primarily made in reference to the question of historicity. Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 10:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    I suspect, but cannot confirm, that this article derives from Richard Packham's( [4]) article. [5] Decent enough article as far as internet pubs go, but hardly the basis needed for writing an entire article on Wikipedia, in my opinion. jps ( talk) 23:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Nations and IQ (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

    I'm currently in a content dispute with an IP over this article which falls under the race and intelligence topic area. For the time being, I'd like to know whether others agree with this editor's revert here. Generalrelative ( talk) 04:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    I would be okay with the article including a statement like that in the lead, but there are too many issues with that particular source. Aside from the fact that it was not summarized accurately, it also is too old. It's from 2001, so it predates all of Lynn and Vanhanen's books, the first of which was published in 2002. The negative reception of those books, and the subsequent research by Wicherts, Rindermann and Becker that sought to improve on Lynn and Vanhanen's methods, are the main thing that caused national IQs to become an area of study. Aside from some very early papers, national IQs have only been an area of study for 22 years, so a broad statement about validity of this field should have a source from less than 22 years ago. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 ( talk) 04:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Let's deal with these objections in turn. Which part of the summary do you think was inaccurate? Generalrelative ( talk) 05:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    The inaccurate part of your summary was the statement, "comparisons which extend beyond the industrialized West are essentially meaningless." Sternberg's criticism is narrower than that. He says, "despite the magnitude of the predictive power of IQ apparent from the findings presented later, this index might extend itself meaningfully only throughout its own kingdom--that is, only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world." This statement is referring specifically to IQ's predictive validity, and he also includes the word "might" to indicate that this is not a definite conclusion. Later, he discusses how the concept of practical intelligence varies between cultures, and does not always align with the type of intelligence that IQ tests measure. He concludes this discussion with the statement, "scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases." Again, this is a more nuanced criticism than stating that comparisons beyond the industrialized West are meaningless. However, I also think my concern about this source's age is the more significant problem. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 ( talk) 05:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I suppose we can let others decide whether probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases is adequately summarized by essentially meaningless. In my view the former doesn't contain any more nuance than the latter, just more beating around the bush.
    As to the source's age, I agree that more recent critiques should be included, e.g. a summary of the relevant language from the 2020 statement by the European Human Behavior and Evolution Association, that there is a fundamental problem in trying to use Western IQ tests across diverse cultural settings. But the 2001 source, which says the same thing, has the virtue of having been co-authored by two extremely prominent subject-matter experts, Robert Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko. Their perspective deserves to be presented in the lead, alongside the likes of Lynn and Vanhanen. Generalrelative ( talk) 05:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    It may be older than the books, but isn't this article about the same thing? It's not surprising to me that Lynn and Vanhanen's books were debunked before they were written, they are race science after all. The article should not give them a special place in the discussion just because they popularized this pseudoscientific concept. HansVonStuttgart ( talk) 08:06, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I would agree, I think Sternberg is not an important intelligence researcher. His tri-archic theory, which is his main contribution, is not mainstream nor recognized by any test publishers as theoretically important. Publius Obsequium ( talk) 17:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC) reply


    For the sake of clarity, here is the statement from the article body:

    In a 2001 review article, Robert J. Sternberg, Elena Grigorenko, and Donald Bundy argued that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading", and that IQ comparisons between nations may be meaningfully applied "only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world." They argue that "scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases."

    And here is the disputed summary of this material in the lead:

    Other psychologists such as Robert J. Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko have cautioned that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading" and that comparisons which extend beyond the industrialized West are essentially meaningless.

    Generalrelative ( talk) 05:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    The disputed material seems like a decent partial summary of §Objections to national comparisons of IQ. That summary should be restored and expanded, since the point of the lead is to summarize the body. §Potential causes of national differences also needs more mention in the lead. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 12:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Firefangledfeathers: Do you also think Generalrelative's proposed wording is truer to the source than the wording I suggested? [6] Here is the wording I tried to include:

    Other psychologists such as Robert J. Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko have cautioned that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading" and that IQ's predictive power might extend "only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world."

    My suggested version uses Sternberg's exact wording, but Generalrelative insisted on changing it to say "essentially meaningless."
    Also, I should mention that although the phrase "virtually meaningless" appears in the "Objections to national comparisons of IQ" section, this wording is based on a misrepresented source. As I said in this edit summary, when Williams uses the phrase "virtually meaningless" she is referring specifically to Lynn and Vanhanen's methods, not to international IQ comparisons in general. The Williams source in fact suggests that international IQ comparisons could be meaningful if they avoided Lynn and Vanhanen's errors. When you say that the lead should summarize the body, be aware that the phrase "essentially meaningless" is summarizing a part of the body that's based on a misrepresented source in this case. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 ( talk) 15:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Note that the phrase "essentially meaningless" in my edit is also meant to summarize the passage from Sternberg et al. which you helpfully quoted above:

    despite the magnitude of the predictive power of IQ apparent from the findings presented later, this index might extend itself meaningfully only throughout its own kingdom –– that is, only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world.

    It's also of course meant to summarize the passage from later in the article, that

    scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases.

    Another phrase like "of dubious validity" wouldn't be terrible, but I think "essentially meaningless" is better writing, and gives the reader a clearer sense of what's being argued here.
    It is true, however, that the direct quote virtually meaningless from Williams and Barnett refers narrowly to Lynn and Vanhanen's dataset. Generalrelative ( talk) 19:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    "Essentially meaningless" from that text seems like a stretch. I prefer the directly quoted "meaningful only…" formulation. ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 00:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    It seems to me that "essentially meaningless" is very close to the wording in the sources, and conveys the same meaning. We're supposed to be paraphrasing, which does not mean using the exact same wording as the sources. NightHeron ( talk) 01:47, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I agree that "essentially meaningless" is a good paraphrase. -- bonadea contributions talk 13:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    i don't see a problem with 'essentially meaningless' as a summary of the source— blindlynx 19:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Multiple chemical sensitivity seems to have a lot of issues with in-universe citations and people abusing sourcing standards. I can try to clean it up a bit but it's taking a lot of willpower not to add "See also: ICPMS" [ just kidding Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Should this article have a ps contentious topics alert? Doug Weller talk 16:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    This was a redirect to Tariq Nasheed but an article has been created by User:‎Fba-warrior, Doug Weller talk 16:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Copied mainly from their website, a bit from theatlantic.com. [7]. History.com doesn't seem to be an rs. Off to dinner and watching tv with family. Doug Weller talk 17:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    I forgot, I blocked a sock who created Foundational Black American. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Foundational Black American. Doug Weller talk 17:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Should categories such as "Ancient seafaring" "Transport in Phoenicia" , be used for non-historical voyages

    I don't think these should be used for articles describing events where we have no evidence they ever occurred. For instance Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ and the Genesis flood narrative, Doug Weller talk 09:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    In general, I agree, but [8]. Per Necho_II#Phoenician_expedition the Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ seems a bit iffy, reasonable people may disagree. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 11:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    The template is ok for Genesis stuff, but not a “tried to prove something could be done”. Doug Weller talk 12:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    User:Revirvlkodlaku has restored the category "Replications of ancient voyages' to Phoenician Ship Expedition although the lead says "The Phoenician Ship Expedition is a re-creation of a 6th-century BCE Phoenician voyage conceived by Philip Beale". The article mentions varied evidence for a voyage and for the second expedition discussed in the article says that the idea that the Canaanites voyaged to America was the inspiration for that voyage. It's all speculations and not recreation of a real voyage. Doug Weller talk 14:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    That no specific voyage is being recreated seems a trivial point & the category name should probably be changed from "replications". I wish people would LINK THINGS! I think Category:Replications of ancient voyages is a useful category, but several are either not exactly "replications" or the voyages are not "ancient" ( Mayflower II), so a rename would probably be good. Johnbod ( talk) 15:26, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Johnbod Or a new category for those that aren’t a good fit. Doug Weller talk 18:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Experimental archaeology is a legitimate field of study, and perhaps a new subcategory with an appropriate name ('Experimental marine archaeology' ?) such voyages could legitimately be included there. There are dozens more examples; see for example, Olympias (trireme), or the Hōkūleʻa. Mathglot ( talk) 19:48, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, good idea. Most of Category:Replications of ancient voyages are Sth America-Polynesia, a la Kon-Tiki, and one might segregate that group. Johnbod ( talk) 21:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Plenty of source material available for a new article on Experimental marine archaeology, and a category to match. Mathglot ( talk) 23:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Just a quick note as I'm not regularly editing at this time, I think Johnbod has hit on an important point here. However this is resolved, we, it needs to treat stuff reasonably equally. If editors are rejecting the Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ because it's largely someone's fantasy with limited supporting evidence, they need to be rejecting Kon-Tiki expedition which as far as I know, and supported by the article was even at the time was considered based on highly questionable claims, and nowadays completely rejected; the idea that the Pacific Islands were populated by South Americans accidentally drifting to the Pacific Islands is well accepted as nonsense, often racist nonsense. (I don't know enough to say if it's accepted as something that never happened instead of perhaps it could have happened once or twice, who knows but not a significant factor in how these places were inhabited.) In fact, from what I can tell, the first Phoenician Ship Expedition seems to be slightly more accepted as something that could have happened than the South America to Polynesia stuff. (The Americas Phoenician expedition does seem to be just nonsense.) If we want to segregate into fringe vs non fringe, stuff like Hōkūleʻa is what needs to take priority. Note though that Hōkūleʻa also illustrates another important point. Just because a replication isn't of a specific voyage doesn't mean it's nonsense. AFAIK, we're not likely to ever be able to know specific voyages of that sort, but we're fairly sure they did happen and there's a fair chance this isn't going to change. Nil Einne ( talk) 13:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Flynn effect (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

    More race and intelligence shenanigans here. Brand-new account and IP tag-teaming to include decidedly WP:PROFRINGE content sourced to J. Philippe Rushton and Arthur Jensen: [9] [10] [11]. Experienced editors are invited to take a look. Generalrelative ( talk) 21:49, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    The basis for my revert was not only about the content that's been removed in the past ten days. When I said in my edit summary that Generalrelative's edits are opposed by consensus, I also was referring to others' views about all the various sources about the Flynn effect that Generalrelative has removed as "fringe", including these, these, these this, this, and the most recent example. It's about ten sources total, and most of these sources don't discuss race. Some of the removed sources, such as this one [12] don't seem remotely controversial.
    Including the older examples, these removals have been opposed by at least five different people, and Generalrelative is the only person removing these sources. The Flynn effect is one of the topics where his mass removals have received media attention, and people commenting outside of Wikipedia don't regard the removals as reasonable either. Wikipedia is being mocked for its rejection of these sources. Is the view of the community that these removals were appropriate, and all ten of the sources can't be used?
    Also, ElPollosi and Publius Obsequium should be notified of the discussion, as they are the most recent editors to challenge these removals. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 ( talk) 22:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    ElPollosi has been blocked as a sock-puppet and vandal [13]. They were also using the sock Dimmlerthegreat [14] and 2 others. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 23:41, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Publius Obsequium should be reported at WP:ANI. They have caused major issues on many WP:Fringe related articles going back a month or so. The user doesn't listen to advice and their edits take time to clean-up and revert. This isn't just happening on one or two articles, it's a pattern of behaviour on about 9 or 10 articles. The user doesn't use article talk-pages and keeps blanking their own talk-page in mid conversation. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 23:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    This is blatantly false and quite the smear. In fact I have followed all advice given. Publius Obsequium ( talk) 00:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Publius Obsequium was deleting RS critique of the antisemitic ‘culture of critique’ books years ago. Zenomonoz ( talk) 00:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    This was 7 years ago but if I recall my reasoning correctly, I think it was an unfair criticism, as whatever you may think of Mac Donald, he is obviously an evolutionary psychologist. Publius Obsequium ( talk) 00:46, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Looking back at my edit I see I have the explanation that this was due to group selection not being discredited. Not sure why this is at all relevant, except that Zeno wants to smear me Publius Obsequium ( talk) 01:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    What gets called “fringe” Seems quite subjective, also. It seems to be whatever you personally disagree with Publius Obsequium ( talk) 00:32, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    Nobody is trying to smear you. Unfortunately your behaviour and editing is disruptive, it is best to discuss this at ANI [15] Psychologist Guy ( talk) 02:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Various fringe and unreliable content that fails WP:MEDRS has been added to the Hypnotherapy article in the "Uses" section. I have trimmed some of it down but there is still work to do here. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 00:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    In what way does it fail? Be specific Publius Obsequium ( talk) 00:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
    You are adding primary sources, integrative medicine pseudoscience and fringe journals that are not med indexed. Before you add a source please check out the quality of the journal and if there is any consistent evidence for such content. We are not going to cite fringe journals or claims with weak evidence. Your editing is problematic and is the reason why pretty much every edit you have made has been reverted by other editors. I suggest reading WP:Fringe and WP:MEDRS. You also made bad edits on Joseph of Cupertino and many other articles pushing all kinds of fringe claims. It's tiring for experienced users having to clean up your bad editing that has spilled out on many articles. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 01:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    Trofim Lysenko

    [16] "agronomist and scientist" - does that make sense? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 08:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Fringe theories noticeboard - dealing with all sorts of pseudoscience
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      • 09 Jun 2024HeartMath Institute ( talk ·   ·  hist) AfDed by BD2412 ( t ·  c) was closed as redirect by OwenX ( t ·  c) on 16 Jun 2024; see discussion (10 participants)

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      I wanted you to take a look at this article, which I believe is problematic in many way as it romanticises a legendary folklore as history. As TrangaBellam ( talk · contribs) is aware, unfortunately a lot of India-related articles on Wikipedia are a victim of this. I would like to see this being dealt with, as majority of the information is not from reliable sources at all. It seems to be a way of presenting legends in the guise of a reliable historical article, and this is very clear to see for those who are familiar with the romanticisation of historical conflicts in India. Muydivertido ( talk) 14:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Maybe this is the wrong noticeboard, but what is TRIZ? The lead is very promo-y and this article cites lots and lots of self-published stuff. Zanahary ( talk) 06:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Based on a quick read, I don't think this is a fringe theory...just a very poorly-written article about a quirky/fad engineering-psychology method. Not my field, so I'm probably not the one to improve the article. WeirdNAnnoyed ( talk) 14:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      It's a method that gained enough prevalence to keep getting works published about it decades after its inception. By definition full of jargon and difficult to define in a way useful to anyone not already embedded in marketing. There are some sources in Russian. Also see Category:TRIZ and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject TRIZ Ontology. Recon rabbit 14:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Hello! I'm not normally a contributor but this jumped out at me because my college professor was very heavily involved in this/ the creation of I-TRIZ. It's not fringe as opposed to a framework for rapidly attempting to solve a problem by using past ideas in a modular fashion. From what I'm seeing of the article, it doesn't look great. So please let me know if I can help improve this. 47.42.9.179 ( talk) 07:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      If you can rewrite, for example, the article lead, so that it is comprehensible, that would be great ꧁ Zanahary⁠꧂ 13:09, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Will make an account and do my best. Like I said I typically don't contribute and was only here reading stuff on a whim. But I'm like one of the 5 people who's ever actually worked with this stuff so I figured I'd throw in. 47.42.9.179 ( talk) 17:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      That would really be helpful. Feel free to ask me via my talk page if you need any help. ꧁ Zanahary⁠꧂ 18:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      About two months ago, there was an apparent consensus that this is a fringe topic, without sufficient sourcing to keep in mainspace, and it was draftified. An IP editor has been repeatedly attempting to reintroduce it to mainspace without fixing the problems. Based on a talk page comment, I tried to change it from a draft, to a "redirect with history" ( [1]), but the IP keeps reverting it back into mainspace.

      I'd like to get some more opinions about what to do with this page. If it seems unlikely that the content can be appropriately sourced, perhaps it should either be made into a semi-protected redirect, or be taken to a deletion discussion and WP:SALTed. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Next, relativistic medicine and galaxy-scale water memory. AFD and SALT. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 20:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Taken by Headbomb to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nano-ayurvedic medicine. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Its self promo. Various IPs have been adding random Lopus, M references for a long while. Check everything the original author of this article (based on the fringe works of Lopus M) contributed before starting the article. Only adding Lopus, M references. Do a search for articles referencing them, and find one where it wasn't added by an IP or an account dedicated to promoting the works of Lopus, M, i.e. [2] 12.75.41.67 ( talk) 23:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Sentient (intelligence analysis system)

      WP:PRIMARY sources assembled to showcase selected memos and documents discussing details of a classified system used to look for UFOs [3]. I could be mistaken, but unless WP:SECONDARY sources have commented on this, such a lavishly detailed assembly is WP:OR. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 21:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      I just deleted the last section from the Sentient article. All sources were primary, and the whole thing was focused on a redacted document that was nearly incomprehensible, severely WP:UNDUE even if accurate. And we just shouldn't be circulating vague bits of intelligence noise like this, it's jet fuel for the engines of conspiracism. WeirdNAnnoyed ( talk) 02:57, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Agree. The more I look at these additions the more I see classic WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 13:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      "Confidence is relatively low...may warrant further investigation..." This is not the kind of content we need anywhere on WP, let alone in a direct quote. Utter garbage, cherry-picked for maximum apophenia. These edits should all be reverted, IMO. WeirdNAnnoyed ( talk) 01:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Alina Chan

      Alina Chan (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Note that the latest entry into "The New York Times focuses on fringe and ignores the mainstream" seems to be extremely well-represented on this WP:FRINGEBLP. I am not sure how much emphasis we are supposed to be placing on Chan's Lab Leak claims (and some of the ones mentioned are exceedingly misleading and others are demonstrably incorrect). There is no attempt to find WP:SECONDARY sources which identify Chan's ideas as being prominent or worthy of inclusion at Wikipedia. Instead, it is all sourced solely to her OpEd. jps ( talk) 16:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      In short, is this now becoming a WP:COATrack? jps ( talk) 16:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Fringe claims from somebody with a book to sell, and little relevant scientific standing (and not even in the same universe at WP:MEDRS sourcing required for pronouncements about biomedicince). WP:FRINGESUBJECTS tells us what to do. Bon courage ( talk) 17:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Addition of language excusing fringe material on Lara Logan

      On Lara Logan material language was added that looks like trying to soften reporting of fringe material like "Despite some media fuss around the original" and "Fauci's unquestioning support for the experimental vaccine" despite not being in the sources (and also took part of reference name for no reason) 2001:8003:3FB4:CF00:2973:401E:A175:B587 ( talk) 02:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Note the removal of the "Anti" in "Anti-Defamation League" at one point. Red flag much? - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 07:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      It's not the "Anti" that was removed, only the "A". Obviously a misclick/typo. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 09:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Ok, the difference viewer may have misled me. Their edits are still not constructive, however. - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 21:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Right. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 06:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Linguistics and the Book of Mormon

      Linguistics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon doesn't appear to have any references about the topic of linguistics and the Book of Mormon. I considered removing pieces, but I'm not sure if any of it belongs, and whether the book of mormon is a topic in linguistics at all. Thoughts? 2600:1700:F990:C190:43BD:7A77:E1FF:CC65 ( talk) 02:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Even when I've contributed in Book of Mormon topics, linguistics and the Book of Mormon is an article I've generally kept a wide berth from because I think the way it's set up draws out apologetics and counter-apologetics that mire the page in WP:OR and back-and-forth. Consider how many citations are either to the Book of Mormon itself (hypothetically fine for verifying quotations, but in too many cases whole paragraphs are supported by it), to texts written by denominational leaders (Studies of the Book of Mormon has a 1985 publication date, but it was written more than half a century earlier, by B. H. Roberts, a member of the Latter-day Saint ecclesiastical hierarchy, as a denominationally commissioned study; there's also a citation to the Journal of Discourses which was a 19th-century anthology of Latter-day Saint sermons), to denominational websites (like strangite.org), to Evangelical 'countercult' apologetics (like Utah Lighthouse Ministry), and to Guns, Germs, and Steel which is not a book that mentions the Book of Mormon at all (and while popular is an outdated source for understanding early modern European–American contact; Diamond gives altogether too much credit to guns and steel and not enough to local alliances and politics). There's even a paragraph that as near as I can tell is subtweeting an intra-denominational disagreement about what the specific miraculous mechanics of Smith's would have been. (The paragraph including the sentence However, as Whitmer was never directly involved in the translation and Harris was involved for only a brief period of time, Mormon apologists consider it unlikely that either of these accounts is as accurate as the accounts of Smith and Cowdery.; casting doubt on Whitmer's recollection of the dictation process is a subtle 'dog whistle' for lay skepticism of the academic consensus that Smith looked at a seer stone—a folk magical practice in early-nineteenth-century New England—for a significant amount of his dictation of the Book of Mormon.)
      Speaking as someone who has read interesting and academically valid scholarship about the Book of Mormon in the history of the 19th century, in religious studies, and in literary studies, published by university presses like Princeton and Oxford and in peer-reviewed journals—what's being cited and summarized in the current version of Linguistics and the Book of Mormon isn't that.
      whether the book of mormon is a topic in linguistics at all: I'm not really sure. There's certainly academic observations about its language—intertextuality with the King James Bible and the use of nonstandard English in the first edition, for instance—but I don't know whether that rises to being linguistics. There's the matter of hemispheric interpretations of the Book of Mormon, popular in the Latter Day Saint movement well into the twentieth century, not making sense alongside the reality of Native American language diversity. But that's also not so much a linguistic study of the Book of Mormon as much as an observation about how something known through linguistics renders implausible the historicity of the Book of Mormon under hemispheric premises. Personally, the whole trifecta of archaeology and the Book of Mormon, genetics and the Book of Mormon, and linguistics and the Book of Mormon seem to me like unproductive forks that tend to encourage editors to get into the weeds of restating apologetics and counter-apologetics, rather than concisely summarizing academic interpretations. I'm not sure what an improved version of the article would look like. Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 09:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Wow, The relationship between linguistics and the Book of Mormon is two-fold. This is as bad as those grad-student-y LGBT articles. ꧁ Zanahary⁠꧂ 13:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      as bad as those grad-student-y LGBT articles: I'm pretty unimpressed with this linguistics and the Book of Mormon article too (see my criticism of it above), but I don't really see what that has to do with making a swipe at either editors who are graduate students or at LGBT studies articles on Wikipedia. Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 17:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      It’s just an earnest comparison: this reminds me of the LGBT-topic articles I’ve come across that seem to have been written by people with a background in academic writing and not encyclopedic writing. ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 22:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      This feels like one of those articles that's probably deserving of an AfD but is so laden with sources and general inertia that it'd never fly, WP:VERIFY be damned. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I've cleaned up the intro a little bit, but there's a lot to unpack there. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      WP:TNT? Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 19:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      "With articles, this is the TNT tipping point argument: if the article's content is useless (including all the versions in history) but the title might be useful"
      Would it though? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Wouldn't Linguistics of the Book of Mormon be better? ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 22:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Linguistic historicity of the Book of Mormon? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:16, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Sounds good. Open an RM? ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 22:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I'm not sure what will be gained from moving the article to a different title when the notability, reliability, or due-ness of the content itself remains under question. Is it a sufficiently vast topic that it warrants a split into a whole article? I'm not sure what's of encyclopedic interest in the realm of linguistics and the Book of Mormon beyond the matter of Native American languages having no connection to the ancient Egyptian the Book of Mormon claims or the ancient Semitic languages its narrative would imply, and of being so diverse they could not have emerged in the short time frame the Book of Mormon would require, and those seem like content that can be (and are) summarized in parent articles. (I'm also not sure "linguistic historicity" as a title will be any less likely to attract apologetics in content and sourcing than the current title.) Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 23:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I agree, as much as I suggested an alternative title I think the article doesn't warrant being here. We don't have an equivalent one for other major religious texts, and the better place for this is Historicity of the Book of Mormon. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 09:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      There probably could be 'equivalent' articles for other major religious texts—A GoogleScholar search makes me think Linguistics and the Bible seems very plausible. But with Linguistics and the Book of Mormon, the same approach inspires less confidence in the topic's notability as an independent article in Wikipedia terms, there being only one genuine hit (the top result, "Historical Linguistics", which is to an interview, albeit journal-published but an interview nonetheless, with an author of a book that had been quite negatively reviewed in the journal's previous edition; the other hits below it are to database pages that simply also link to the same article). Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 10:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I still think it just would fall into a subset of historicity, personally, but I could be wrong. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I don't think linguistic analysis of the Bible is solely limited to the question of the historicity of its contents; from quickly scanning some of the GoogleScholar hits it seems to play a role in the history of biblical hermeneutics (part of the reception history of the Bible), in study of its grammar, in translation studies approaches, in philosophical metaphysics, and in more. Such are far afield from historicity questions like 'was David a real king'. Meanwhile, with the Book of Mormon it does seem like what's there linguistically be folded into a parent article like historicity of the Book of Mormon, since I'm not sure what there is beyond the two observations about Indigenous languages, which are primarily made in reference to the question of historicity. Hydrangeans ( she/her | talk | edits) 10:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      I suspect, but cannot confirm, that this article derives from Richard Packham's( [4]) article. [5] Decent enough article as far as internet pubs go, but hardly the basis needed for writing an entire article on Wikipedia, in my opinion. jps ( talk) 23:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Nations and IQ (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

      I'm currently in a content dispute with an IP over this article which falls under the race and intelligence topic area. For the time being, I'd like to know whether others agree with this editor's revert here. Generalrelative ( talk) 04:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      I would be okay with the article including a statement like that in the lead, but there are too many issues with that particular source. Aside from the fact that it was not summarized accurately, it also is too old. It's from 2001, so it predates all of Lynn and Vanhanen's books, the first of which was published in 2002. The negative reception of those books, and the subsequent research by Wicherts, Rindermann and Becker that sought to improve on Lynn and Vanhanen's methods, are the main thing that caused national IQs to become an area of study. Aside from some very early papers, national IQs have only been an area of study for 22 years, so a broad statement about validity of this field should have a source from less than 22 years ago. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 ( talk) 04:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Let's deal with these objections in turn. Which part of the summary do you think was inaccurate? Generalrelative ( talk) 05:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      The inaccurate part of your summary was the statement, "comparisons which extend beyond the industrialized West are essentially meaningless." Sternberg's criticism is narrower than that. He says, "despite the magnitude of the predictive power of IQ apparent from the findings presented later, this index might extend itself meaningfully only throughout its own kingdom--that is, only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world." This statement is referring specifically to IQ's predictive validity, and he also includes the word "might" to indicate that this is not a definite conclusion. Later, he discusses how the concept of practical intelligence varies between cultures, and does not always align with the type of intelligence that IQ tests measure. He concludes this discussion with the statement, "scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases." Again, this is a more nuanced criticism than stating that comparisons beyond the industrialized West are meaningless. However, I also think my concern about this source's age is the more significant problem. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 ( talk) 05:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I suppose we can let others decide whether probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases is adequately summarized by essentially meaningless. In my view the former doesn't contain any more nuance than the latter, just more beating around the bush.
      As to the source's age, I agree that more recent critiques should be included, e.g. a summary of the relevant language from the 2020 statement by the European Human Behavior and Evolution Association, that there is a fundamental problem in trying to use Western IQ tests across diverse cultural settings. But the 2001 source, which says the same thing, has the virtue of having been co-authored by two extremely prominent subject-matter experts, Robert Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko. Their perspective deserves to be presented in the lead, alongside the likes of Lynn and Vanhanen. Generalrelative ( talk) 05:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      It may be older than the books, but isn't this article about the same thing? It's not surprising to me that Lynn and Vanhanen's books were debunked before they were written, they are race science after all. The article should not give them a special place in the discussion just because they popularized this pseudoscientific concept. HansVonStuttgart ( talk) 08:06, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I would agree, I think Sternberg is not an important intelligence researcher. His tri-archic theory, which is his main contribution, is not mainstream nor recognized by any test publishers as theoretically important. Publius Obsequium ( talk) 17:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC) reply


      For the sake of clarity, here is the statement from the article body:

      In a 2001 review article, Robert J. Sternberg, Elena Grigorenko, and Donald Bundy argued that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading", and that IQ comparisons between nations may be meaningfully applied "only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world." They argue that "scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases."

      And here is the disputed summary of this material in the lead:

      Other psychologists such as Robert J. Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko have cautioned that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading" and that comparisons which extend beyond the industrialized West are essentially meaningless.

      Generalrelative ( talk) 05:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      The disputed material seems like a decent partial summary of §Objections to national comparisons of IQ. That summary should be restored and expanded, since the point of the lead is to summarize the body. §Potential causes of national differences also needs more mention in the lead. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 12:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      @ Firefangledfeathers: Do you also think Generalrelative's proposed wording is truer to the source than the wording I suggested? [6] Here is the wording I tried to include:

      Other psychologists such as Robert J. Sternberg and Elena Grigorenko have cautioned that IQ comparisons between rich and poor nations can be "dangerously misleading" and that IQ's predictive power might extend "only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world."

      My suggested version uses Sternberg's exact wording, but Generalrelative insisted on changing it to say "essentially meaningless."
      Also, I should mention that although the phrase "virtually meaningless" appears in the "Objections to national comparisons of IQ" section, this wording is based on a misrepresented source. As I said in this edit summary, when Williams uses the phrase "virtually meaningless" she is referring specifically to Lynn and Vanhanen's methods, not to international IQ comparisons in general. The Williams source in fact suggests that international IQ comparisons could be meaningful if they avoided Lynn and Vanhanen's errors. When you say that the lead should summarize the body, be aware that the phrase "essentially meaningless" is summarizing a part of the body that's based on a misrepresented source in this case. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 ( talk) 15:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Note that the phrase "essentially meaningless" in my edit is also meant to summarize the passage from Sternberg et al. which you helpfully quoted above:

      despite the magnitude of the predictive power of IQ apparent from the findings presented later, this index might extend itself meaningfully only throughout its own kingdom –– that is, only through selected segments of the Western part of the industrialized world.

      It's also of course meant to summarize the passage from later in the article, that

      scores from tests used in cultures or subcultures other than those for which the tests were specifically created are suspect, and probably of doubtful validity in many if not most cases.

      Another phrase like "of dubious validity" wouldn't be terrible, but I think "essentially meaningless" is better writing, and gives the reader a clearer sense of what's being argued here.
      It is true, however, that the direct quote virtually meaningless from Williams and Barnett refers narrowly to Lynn and Vanhanen's dataset. Generalrelative ( talk) 19:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      "Essentially meaningless" from that text seems like a stretch. I prefer the directly quoted "meaningful only…" formulation. ꧁ Zanahary꧂ 00:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      It seems to me that "essentially meaningless" is very close to the wording in the sources, and conveys the same meaning. We're supposed to be paraphrasing, which does not mean using the exact same wording as the sources. NightHeron ( talk) 01:47, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I agree that "essentially meaningless" is a good paraphrase. -- bonadea contributions talk 13:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      i don't see a problem with 'essentially meaningless' as a summary of the source— blindlynx 19:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Multiple chemical sensitivity seems to have a lot of issues with in-universe citations and people abusing sourcing standards. I can try to clean it up a bit but it's taking a lot of willpower not to add "See also: ICPMS" [ just kidding Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Should this article have a ps contentious topics alert? Doug Weller talk 16:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      This was a redirect to Tariq Nasheed but an article has been created by User:‎Fba-warrior, Doug Weller talk 16:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Copied mainly from their website, a bit from theatlantic.com. [7]. History.com doesn't seem to be an rs. Off to dinner and watching tv with family. Doug Weller talk 17:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      I forgot, I blocked a sock who created Foundational Black American. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Foundational Black American. Doug Weller talk 17:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Should categories such as "Ancient seafaring" "Transport in Phoenicia" , be used for non-historical voyages

      I don't think these should be used for articles describing events where we have no evidence they ever occurred. For instance Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ and the Genesis flood narrative, Doug Weller talk 09:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      In general, I agree, but [8]. Per Necho_II#Phoenician_expedition the Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ seems a bit iffy, reasonable people may disagree. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 11:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      The template is ok for Genesis stuff, but not a “tried to prove something could be done”. Doug Weller talk 12:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      User:Revirvlkodlaku has restored the category "Replications of ancient voyages' to Phoenician Ship Expedition although the lead says "The Phoenician Ship Expedition is a re-creation of a 6th-century BCE Phoenician voyage conceived by Philip Beale". The article mentions varied evidence for a voyage and for the second expedition discussed in the article says that the idea that the Canaanites voyaged to America was the inspiration for that voyage. It's all speculations and not recreation of a real voyage. Doug Weller talk 14:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      That no specific voyage is being recreated seems a trivial point & the category name should probably be changed from "replications". I wish people would LINK THINGS! I think Category:Replications of ancient voyages is a useful category, but several are either not exactly "replications" or the voyages are not "ancient" ( Mayflower II), so a rename would probably be good. Johnbod ( talk) 15:26, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      @ Johnbod Or a new category for those that aren’t a good fit. Doug Weller talk 18:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Experimental archaeology is a legitimate field of study, and perhaps a new subcategory with an appropriate name ('Experimental marine archaeology' ?) such voyages could legitimately be included there. There are dozens more examples; see for example, Olympias (trireme), or the Hōkūleʻa. Mathglot ( talk) 19:48, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Yes, good idea. Most of Category:Replications of ancient voyages are Sth America-Polynesia, a la Kon-Tiki, and one might segregate that group. Johnbod ( talk) 21:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Plenty of source material available for a new article on Experimental marine archaeology, and a category to match. Mathglot ( talk) 23:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Just a quick note as I'm not regularly editing at this time, I think Johnbod has hit on an important point here. However this is resolved, we, it needs to treat stuff reasonably equally. If editors are rejecting the Phoenician Ship Expedition‎ because it's largely someone's fantasy with limited supporting evidence, they need to be rejecting Kon-Tiki expedition which as far as I know, and supported by the article was even at the time was considered based on highly questionable claims, and nowadays completely rejected; the idea that the Pacific Islands were populated by South Americans accidentally drifting to the Pacific Islands is well accepted as nonsense, often racist nonsense. (I don't know enough to say if it's accepted as something that never happened instead of perhaps it could have happened once or twice, who knows but not a significant factor in how these places were inhabited.) In fact, from what I can tell, the first Phoenician Ship Expedition seems to be slightly more accepted as something that could have happened than the South America to Polynesia stuff. (The Americas Phoenician expedition does seem to be just nonsense.) If we want to segregate into fringe vs non fringe, stuff like Hōkūleʻa is what needs to take priority. Note though that Hōkūleʻa also illustrates another important point. Just because a replication isn't of a specific voyage doesn't mean it's nonsense. AFAIK, we're not likely to ever be able to know specific voyages of that sort, but we're fairly sure they did happen and there's a fair chance this isn't going to change. Nil Einne ( talk) 13:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Flynn effect (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

      More race and intelligence shenanigans here. Brand-new account and IP tag-teaming to include decidedly WP:PROFRINGE content sourced to J. Philippe Rushton and Arthur Jensen: [9] [10] [11]. Experienced editors are invited to take a look. Generalrelative ( talk) 21:49, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      The basis for my revert was not only about the content that's been removed in the past ten days. When I said in my edit summary that Generalrelative's edits are opposed by consensus, I also was referring to others' views about all the various sources about the Flynn effect that Generalrelative has removed as "fringe", including these, these, these this, this, and the most recent example. It's about ten sources total, and most of these sources don't discuss race. Some of the removed sources, such as this one [12] don't seem remotely controversial.
      Including the older examples, these removals have been opposed by at least five different people, and Generalrelative is the only person removing these sources. The Flynn effect is one of the topics where his mass removals have received media attention, and people commenting outside of Wikipedia don't regard the removals as reasonable either. Wikipedia is being mocked for its rejection of these sources. Is the view of the community that these removals were appropriate, and all ten of the sources can't be used?
      Also, ElPollosi and Publius Obsequium should be notified of the discussion, as they are the most recent editors to challenge these removals. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 ( talk) 22:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      ElPollosi has been blocked as a sock-puppet and vandal [13]. They were also using the sock Dimmlerthegreat [14] and 2 others. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 23:41, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Publius Obsequium should be reported at WP:ANI. They have caused major issues on many WP:Fringe related articles going back a month or so. The user doesn't listen to advice and their edits take time to clean-up and revert. This isn't just happening on one or two articles, it's a pattern of behaviour on about 9 or 10 articles. The user doesn't use article talk-pages and keeps blanking their own talk-page in mid conversation. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 23:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      This is blatantly false and quite the smear. In fact I have followed all advice given. Publius Obsequium ( talk) 00:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Publius Obsequium was deleting RS critique of the antisemitic ‘culture of critique’ books years ago. Zenomonoz ( talk) 00:31, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      This was 7 years ago but if I recall my reasoning correctly, I think it was an unfair criticism, as whatever you may think of Mac Donald, he is obviously an evolutionary psychologist. Publius Obsequium ( talk) 00:46, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Looking back at my edit I see I have the explanation that this was due to group selection not being discredited. Not sure why this is at all relevant, except that Zeno wants to smear me Publius Obsequium ( talk) 01:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      What gets called “fringe” Seems quite subjective, also. It seems to be whatever you personally disagree with Publius Obsequium ( talk) 00:32, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      Nobody is trying to smear you. Unfortunately your behaviour and editing is disruptive, it is best to discuss this at ANI [15] Psychologist Guy ( talk) 02:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Various fringe and unreliable content that fails WP:MEDRS has been added to the Hypnotherapy article in the "Uses" section. I have trimmed some of it down but there is still work to do here. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 00:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      In what way does it fail? Be specific Publius Obsequium ( talk) 00:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply
      You are adding primary sources, integrative medicine pseudoscience and fringe journals that are not med indexed. Before you add a source please check out the quality of the journal and if there is any consistent evidence for such content. We are not going to cite fringe journals or claims with weak evidence. Your editing is problematic and is the reason why pretty much every edit you have made has been reverted by other editors. I suggest reading WP:Fringe and WP:MEDRS. You also made bad edits on Joseph of Cupertino and many other articles pushing all kinds of fringe claims. It's tiring for experienced users having to clean up your bad editing that has spilled out on many articles. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 01:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply

      Trofim Lysenko

      [16] "agronomist and scientist" - does that make sense? -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 08:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC) reply


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