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Have a look at the discussion page for history of the problems. Problem started with the question, whether a separate article is usefull at, as the term Zero-point field isn't nearly unused in physics (there's zero-point energy, vacuum energy and vacuum expectation value. But the most recent problem is the handling of B.G. Sidharth's theories, see the diffs. -- Pjacobi 23:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a debacle over largely anonymous claims that this Italian family descends from the Julii, the family of Julius Caesar. The page was protected and radically scaled-down to remove the elaborate hoax. Now there's some attrition warfare on the talk page. -- Ghirla -трёп- 15:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
an anon editor, now Winai Zhaa ( talk · contribs), has secret knowledge of unpublished versions of the text and wants to impress on us that our discussion of the published versions are "misinforming the public". dab (𒁳) 09:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC).
I am not sure whether recent edits to Vedanga Jyotisha by Winai Zhaa ( talk · contribs) qualify as fringe, or only POV OR. Can someone knowledgeable about the subject, take a look. Abecedare 09:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Why it happens that each time people start discussing Shakespeare, the discussion ends up by being hijacked by those folks who believe the plays were written by Marlowe, Bacon, Queen Elizabeth, etc.? The fate of humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare is instructive in this respect. To quote Bishonen's summary of the situation in Wikipedia: " Smatprt seems to be a tireless pest at William Shakespeare, where he edit wars to make the classic crank Shakespeare-wasn't-Shakespeare theory as large and as undue-weighty a part of the article as possible. His intentions are no doubt good, but his practice is destructive, and he makes the lives of the other Shakespeare editors wearisome". [1] Although the issue is not urgent, this activity is disturbing and needs to be investigated. -- Ghirla -трёп- 22:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
since there is a full article dedicated to this, there is really no excuse to refer to this by more than a brief sentence in the main William Shakespeare article. dab (𒁳) 23:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a complaint about Smatprt's violations here on the Administrator's Noticeboard with contributions from many aggrieved editors. [ [2]] ( Felsommerfeld 12:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC))
please note:
See Talk:Allais effect. —Steven G. Johnson 22:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
scientific fact: Amazons were Turks! "you can watch sometimes PBS about this research and accept the Chinese history records". The situation seems under control so far, but chime in if you like. dab (𒁳) 08:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Two proponents of technical analysis are POV-pushing and tag-teaming removing NPOV tags such that a single editor cannot hope to achieve balance on the page. THF 02:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
A purported perpetual motion machine. A cursory read of the articel makes it sound as though someone's trying to give possibility of actual use (IE. Violation of some principle of physics) under the guise of NPOV. Can't tell for sure though. 68.39.174.238 18:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
78.62.22.250 ( talk · contribs) goes around articles on Indo-European languages, touting the Paleolithic Continuity Theory as the latest scientific breakthrough. dab (𒁳) 12:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A user has started debate based on his interpretation of Bible Verse. Essentially, the editor argue that "Amen" is actually a reference to "[Amon-Ra]]" (Egyptian Sun God). He has provided no evidence other than his interpretation, and started an RFC on the matter. Pats Sox Princess 04:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Could someone with a proper academic background please take a look at this article. During the last few days it has been the subject of a whitewash that introduced a bunch of details from Red Rain studies. ˉˉ anetode ╦╩ 01:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There is in fact a published paper in 2006 in "Astrophysics and Space Science abstract, though it is not quite the same. This is a perfectly reputable peer-reviewed journal. for a comment on it see New Scientist, where the editor of the journal goes to an extraordinary degree of distancing himself from it, saying in effect that it was accepted by his coeditor, who has since died. Note that I think the hypothesis is total nonsense, but this is a major mainstream journal. It is anyway not unusual in astrophysics and physics for speculative or even substantial papers to be deposited in arxiv and not further published--some very major work in mathematics for example, has been published that way. Between Springer & New Scientist I dont think it can be omitted as irresponsible or minute fringe. (I commented in the deletion discussion that there is after all the precedent of prions, which do not contain nucleic acid. Frankly, I didnt believe in them either for years, but the Nobel Prize committee disagreed with me.) DGG ( talk) 06:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there a "fifth Veda"? Are efforts to cover up the existence of the Fifth Veda part of a sinister conspiracy? You be the judge. Buddhipriya 04:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
no, there is no "fifth Veda" in any meaninful sense. Delete on sight.
dab
(𒁳) 16:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Forget a fifth veda, there isnt even a 'fourth' veda, technically. According to one school of thought, the Atharva/Aatharvana veda is only what Atharva Rishi put together from the the other three Vedas. Sarvagnya 20:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I created Fifth Veda. I must admit, I was not aware that already the Chandogya Upanishad had such a reference. dab (𒁳) 22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Ralphyde, seems to be editing the RSI page to include information about a one Dr. John E. Sarno, who has a book. He cites the book as evidence of the doctor's work. I don't believe his intentions are bad, he claims the book helped his wife, but it is a fringe theory, without much mainstream evidence.
I think the idea of Tension myositis syndrome is an ideal example of a fringe theory and it's impact on the Repetitive Strain Injury page should therefore be reduced from what it is now. As a side note, people have been working hard lately to reduce the lack of NPOV to the John E. Sarno page, and it's kinda interesting to see the debate there. Kaddar 01:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, User: Bremskraft has been quite active in their campaign to discredit articles that don't meet some personal level of social consciousness or at least it certainly seems that way. As a member of the Discrimination WP project I first came into contact reverting edits to our template and then (perhaps foolishly) helping user see that the articles in question needed improvement not the template. I'm posting on this board for assistance or advice as to what makes sense. This user has apparently also taken an aggressive and non-cooperative approach on other articles so my hope is to see them gently veered back into the community spirit as I do feel their insight and editing could be of use but right now is borderline abusive. My talk page comments as well as another editors were simply deleted [10] and my biggest concern presently is 1. Where to start cleaning up the tag riddled article Masculism and 2. how to encourage this potentially valuable editor to be more constructive than tag-happy? All help appreciated. Benjiboi 08:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
exported from Swastika, apparently in a cleanup effort at the main article, and since then graced with an "OR" tag. dab (𒁳) 12:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Crap, it's a big copyvio. http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/bronze.html and http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/sw/swpi.html ← Ben B4 18:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Well it turns out that the author of the apparent violations was the one who inserted them, and he has agreed to place a copyright release on the source page. As for the fringe theory content, I can't agree that there is any because the archaeological images displayed on the page and author's source text clearly show swastikas. ← Ben B4 00:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
yes, sorry -- the author of this is the author of that website ( WP:COI). I am not disputing the validity of the article topic itself: After all, even Carl Sagan has suggested it, and Sagan is about as emphatically anti-fringe as you can be. The point is that the author of this website more or less uses Wikipedia as a mirror. His theory is completely fringy, or for purposes of Wikipedia, WP:SYN. Of course there are archaeological artefacts displaying swastika motifs. But the claim that this has anything to do with coments, and with bird feet, is completely pulled out of thin air. If Korbes' ideas are supposed to be repeated in WP's voice, there would need to be academic reviews of his book. dab (𒁳) 18:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
This user has been adding material to feminism related pages. Their additions claim that feminists are nazis and that profeminist men are like KKK auxiliaries. [14] [15] [16] The material itself is unsourced original research. This user has avoided detection because of their infrequent use of wikipedia - they have made aprox 150 of these edits since August 2006. They were warned for breaches of NPOV with a level 4 template in april 07 [17] and I warned them again last night (Auguest 4th 2007). I put a post at WP:AN when they made edits back in July but it got no attention [18]. A full report page is here detailing the history and extent of this problem - has anyone any further advice on what to do?-- Cailil talk 15:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it notable enough to have an article? Chime in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Socionomics (2nd nomination). GRBerry 12:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
A recent discussion about a particular article ( here) has raised an interesting question: when does listing of an atrocities committed during a given military operation (by one or both sides) cross the border between being relevant to the article and being unduly weighted, fringe skewing of the subject? The issue is particularly evident when mainstream sources, discussing the given military op, devote at best few % to those issues - but it my experience, on Wikipedia, the proportion is often higher, as certain editors list every grievance, no matter how tiny or how reliable its source, with the effect that an article ends up with close to half of its content devoted to listing such atrocities (in an attempt to show how "morally evil" a given side was). As one can see from this diff, the disputed edit adds several long paras to the article, increasing its size from roughly 4,000 to 5,000 words (20%). It repeats the claims of Soviet and Polish propaganda ("Soviet propaganda claimed that"... "The Poles denied that"...); uses foreign-language newspapers mentioning claims not found in mainstream literature, and dwells in detail on even such common wartime actions as building and brides destruction or (sic!) "cutting telegraph wires", portraying them as purposeful vandalism. It is my belief that such atrocities, committed by both sides, often alleged, and referenced with many dubious sources (diaries, newspapers), should be only shortly and in a neutral way described in the main article about the military op - particularly in this case, when a dedicated article ( Controversies of the Polish-Soviet War) exists and can accept all content cut from the main article. Comments appreciated. PS. There is an AfD proposal to delete Controversies of the Polish-Soviet War and merge it into the main article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Vinay Jha ( talk · contribs) is giving grief to the editors at Talk:Precession (astronomy) again (c.f. #Surya_Siddhanta above). dab (𒁳) 12:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
you are right, Vinay Jha is making good progress. -- dab (𒁳) 10:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
No specific concerns but it looks like it needs attention Nil Einne 00:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Someone might want to take a look at this. It seems to be a fringe theory of questionable notability. It's also a bit spammish, seeing as how it prominently displays links to this one kooky-looking website. None of the other sources cited seem to have anything to do with this. Deranged bulbasaur 10:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Would someone mind looking at the at this edit and advise whether or not it involves pushing of fringe science by the Centre for Disease Control Atlanta (CDC) in their recently published findings (see citations and link), as editor Orangemarlin keeps reverting and stating here on 10th Aug and here on 16th Aug on this pretext and refuses to discuss further despite numerous requests to do so. Jagra 01:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The page on Facilitated communication seems to me to be in a very credulous state. -- Wfaxon 23:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Our regular Vinay Jha ( talk · contribs) is at it again, this time at Indian astronomy, [20]. Could somebody look into it? I am tired of him. dab (𒁳) 11:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
hey, I've found a good edit of his: [21]. That's perfectly commendable: rejoice, VJ made a valid edit! the problem is still that his signal to noise ratio is at about one valid single-line edit per about 80k of cross-posted rambling and complaining on talkpages. Not exactly what we are looking for, but maybe he'll do another good edit next week. dab (𒁳) 19:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I (and several others) have had a very long and bitter correspondence with 2 or 3 people who seem to have hijacked this page to promote their own glorious fantasies of Jat history which seem to be based on some notion that they are "pure Aryan" and are superior to other people. They will stoop at nothing to promote their supremacist points of view including personal abuse and vilification, outright lies, the use of pseudo-scientific "evidence", providing false "quotes" and "references", threats, etc., etc., etc. (Much of this sorry saga can be followed in the Talk pages and their archives if anyone is interested in checking it out) I have gradually managed to get rid of some of the most extreme and ridiculous claims but it seems to be impossible that we will ever get a balanced article on the Jat people unless something is done to curb the excesses of these fanatics. Anything any of you can do to help bring some sanity to this page would be most welcome John Hill 04:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
We have a very determined editor pushing fringe theories about the Ebionites being directly related to the Essenes, John the Baptist, and religious vegetarianism. There is also an element of synthesis, imho, that goes beyond simply citing fringe sources. An RFC has been requested, but we are still waiting for someone to show up. Can you provide some perspective before we have a melt-down? The discussion Historical revisionism: Essenes and Christians, Religious vegetarianism redux, Essenism section is getting a bit over-heated. Ovadyah 21:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Please leave your comments at Requests for comment from Ft/N so they are not lost among the internal edit-warring. Thanks. Ovadyah 19:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Ebionites has been nominated for FAR. The factual accuracy of the Essenism section is disputed. Please help restore the article to feature quality. Ovadyah 00:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
BalanceRestored ( talk · contribs) is going around creating articles on UFOs and the Vedas. So far, Vaimanika Shastra and Shivkar Bapuji Talpade. I have fixed these, but I cannot spend more time babysitting this user: more eyeballs are needed. thanks, dab (𒁳) 11:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I was directed here from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. I am not sure that this is really the right place; the immediate problem is not so much fringe ideas in the main space, but disruption and personal remarks being made in the talk space.
JimJast ( talk · contribs) is a long time editor, with an unusual perspective on physics. Jim claims to be simply following the theories of Einstein, and considers that his ideas have failed to be published because of a collective psychological block in the whole modern physics community, and that modern cosmology is riddled with pseudoscience. He is currently pursuing a PhD in physics at Warsaw University. Other physicists on Wikipedia believe that Jim's work is fatally flawed, and in complete conflict with relativity, Einstein, and all evidence. Jim confidently asserts that no-one has ever found an error in his work; others might say that Jim has never recognized the errors in his work.
Jim is repeatedly disruptive of the physics pages, with attempts to insert his ideas; apparently thinking they need no other citation than his own claims to be applying Einstein, or relativity. The annoyance is low-level, as Jim works alone. He is mostly pretty genial, but completely beyond any attempts at reason, as far as I can see.
The immediate issue for this report is personal remarks and irrelevant distractions in the talk page of Tired light, after one of Jim's edits in the main page was reverted. Jim's contribution was at 08:39, 24 August 2007; I reverted it four minutes later, at 08:43, 24 August 2007.
Jim has been warned of the inappropriateness of his subsequent personal remarks and disruption in the talk page by two, possibly three editors. See the exchange at Talk:Tired light#Are we under attack by theists?; warnings by Fram ( talk · contribs) and Duae Quartunciae ( talk · contribs) (me). Basis of the warning confirmed by RE ( talk · contribs). I have also requested on Jim's talk page that he refrain from the personal speculations about me on the article talk page, and placed a warning that on-going disruption would mean I'd hand the problem over to someone else. That's what I'm doing now. See User_talk:JimJast#On irrelevant personal material in article talk pages + on Einstein's Tired Light. (The "Einstein's Tired light" is a characteristic addition by Jim, claiming that Einstein supports his particular Tired light notion.)
Viewing his contributions to the main namespace shows a long pattern of similar edits, on and off over the last three years, nearly always reverted fairly promptly by the next passing physicist. There has never been a major problem with fringe ideas in the main space; Jim is a loner. It's a long term thing. Jim used to mark almost all his edits "minor"; he seems to have given that up recently. Contributions in the Wikipedia space show the deletion of several articles he has written, and speedy redelete when he recreated. That was several months ago now. Reasoning with Jim is a bit like slamming a revolving door, so I am placing it here. — Duae Quartunciae ( talk · cont) 15:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Despite repeated requests and warnings by different editors, JimJast continues to misuse Talk:Tired light as a page to discuss his ideas and complain about mainstream BigBang defenders and so on. He seems at first glance to have dropped the uncivility and mild personal attacks, but the main disruption continues [22]. Is it getting time for a topic ban or should we be a bit more patient? Fram 08:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation WHINSEC/WHISC/SOA/'school of assasins', etc....
There is an ongoing edit war between wikipedians and original researchers at this article, to put it as neutrally as possible. One of the parties involved has a conflict of interest and has stated an intent to "start a war" (quote) over the article.
The article has a lot of editing traffic and is apparently controversial enough for the US Army to pay people to edit as there have been edits traced to FT Benning. 67.49.8.228 09:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Talk:Pedophilia over how to characterize studies which dispute the mainstream position that there is no link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Fireplace 15:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
right. If Blanchard has been criticised, why cannot people just cite the criticism? Is the Blanchard study really "fringe"? I'm no expert, but I see no evidence of that. All that Blanchard's study says is that a certain fraction of pedophiles prefer boys, and that this fraction is higher than the average percentage of gays in society. That's it. Now this can be abused for anti-gay progaganda, and we don't want that, but it is not, in itself, anti-gay. This also answers Behnam: this is a study on pedophiles, not on homosexuals. MoritzB quoted other studies that say incidence of pedophilia is about twice as high among homosexuals compared to heterosexuals. I don't know if the study is reliable, because the "anti-anti-gay vigilance" on Wikipedia have campaigned to remove the reference rather than citing criticism. Now look, it is still true in any case that "no evidence is available from this data that children are at greater risk to be molested by identifiable homosexuals than by other adults". Why? Because only 10% of child molesters are also homosexuals. From the pov of the victim, your chances are 90% that your molester is a hetero. Since there are only about 5% homosexuals in society at large, that might calculate to a 100% higher incidence of pedophilia among homosexuals. See what you can do with statistics? "no evidence that children are at greater risk to be molested by identifiable homosexuals" and "homosexuals are twice as likely to be child molesters" are both true statements according to these statistics, they are just given different spins. The anti-anti-gay brigade would do well to combat the spin, and not bona fide discussion of academic studies. -- dab (𒁳) 13:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
As discussed on that article's talk page, the Kievan Expedition of 1018 is mentioned in various academic works. It appears that a 1900s Russian encyclopedia and 1999 Russian book make a claim that doesn't seem to be repeated in any other sources (that the Kievan population rose against the Polish garrison). Are those two sources enough to warrant a mention of that in the article? Or would they be too fringe/undue weight to justify such a mention? Please consider crossposting your replies to talk section linked above.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus. This board is for crackpot stuff, not to solve the article's POV problems referenced to academic sources you happen to not like. -- Irpen 18:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm in a protracted dispute with Ludovicapipa over OR and SYN on multiple pages ( Fernando Collor de Mello, Zélia Cardoso de Mello and Plano Collor) over the benefits of an economic plan in Brazil in the early 90s called "Plano Collor". This plan, which attempted to combat hyperinflation, is generally regarded as a failure (easily backed up quantitatively by looking at the inflation rates here--The plan began in 1990, and as the inflation rates show, hyperinflation initially dropped only to come back until the next plan, ( Plano Real), killed inflation on its inception in 1994).
Ludovica has admitted that she is trying to paint a positive picture of Collor's administration ( here- "Meu "goal" é mostrar que o legado dele é altamente positivo. ", "My goal is to show his legacy is highly positive") and that her position is in the minority, if not outright fringe (same link, "centenas de outros links só falam mal dele" - "hundreds of other links only speak ill of him"). If one looks at the articles in question (including Fernando Collor de Mello which is fully-protected), one's quick to notice it's an NPOV/ WP:PEACOCK nightmare.
She has also used sources selectively: quoting Bresser Pereira (former finance minister in the government prior to Collor) saying that Collor's reforms were "brave", when Bresser himself wrote an entire paper saying how the Plano Collor was doomed to failure before it even began ( here).
-- Rocksanddirt 18:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
One example: in Plano Collor, she constantly revert edits which remove the reference to "end of hyperinflation", though the inflation indicators clearly contradict that.
So, the issue at hand is: How to incorporate her POV into the article without turning it into a propaganda piece. The slippery slope is: Should we focus on facts, or incorporate opinion? If the latter is the answer, I'm afraid these articles will turn into an infinite "he-said, she-said", where it'll one be one "According to Professor X, but according to Professor Y" after another. Personally, I'm a big believer in "show, don't tell", so I'd rather scrub the articles down for NPOV and remove all opinion.
(Note: Just for some context on the user in question, Ludovicapipa has already been blocked for 1 year in the Portuguese Wikipedia under the username "Filomeninha" for personal attacks. She has tried to add the same content to the EN wikipedia as she did there. And she has already engaged in a prolonged OR/SYN dispute with me on 1964 Brazilian coup d'état which she withdrew from. I don't know at which point this becomes an administrative issue, but I'm still trying to deal with it editorially (?).)-- Dali-Llama 17:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Ludovicapipa yes? 18:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This thread is more an ordinary content dispute or NPOV issue than a fringe theory as such. As such it belongs on the article talk pages or maybe WP:ANI. Raymond Arritt 15:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The sourced information keeps getting way out of hand. Take the first footnote which appears to be used through the entire article. I think there are to many assumptions happening here which aren't elaborated within any article. Apparently the fuel cell is now a machine of perpetual motion? Could someone please help find a proper source for this? I've read through the patents and they appear to contradict most of the information which is not properly sourced throughout this article. -- FR Soliloquy 06:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I still fail to see the relevant source that says this is a perpetual motion machine? Can you or someone perhaps point me to a relevant or notable source? Otherwise, I will have to assume that it's some sort of quak theory someone is adding! Thank you? -- FR Soliloquy 08:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The current page on ESP states that: "The scientific field which investigates psi phenomena such as ESP is called parapsychology". Is that true? Is parapsychology a scientific field? The creator not only insists it is, but that some kind of arbitartion has happened and it was decided he was right. The article further insists that ESP hasn't been measured by science. But if parapsychology is a science, hasn't it measured it? Further the page says The term implies sources of information currently unexplained by science. Doesn't this imply that ESP exists and that it has not yet been discovered by science? Isn't that chrystal ball gazing? The page is very unbalanced - but the guy who seems to be in charge doesn't quite see the world in the same way as most. How do you avoid edit wars without leaving completely unsubstantiated claims on an information site? I see there have been many attempts to discuss creating a more balanced article in the discussion archives of this topic. But the most stubburn win in the end it seems. You only have to look at the quality of the page to see that. Anyone who read it would have to go away thinking that ESP has been scientifically proven. How do we deal with such stubbornness?
For example, this sort of stuff, in response to a request for evidence: "There is no controversy that there is evidence: the skeptics don't dispute that studies come out positive. It is whether the positive results really indicate psi that is in question. To say that there is evidence is not to say that there is proof. But no one questions whether evidence exists, only whether it is proof of psi. For example, note that skeptics often complain that the evidence is anecdotal. Well, if there weren't any evidence, they wouldn't be able to say this." I mean where do you start? And it's all like this. None of this or anything else that is argued is supported by any evidence. I'm not a scientist but it seems to me that you can't just make things up. And greet every reasonable objection or request for evidence as proof of you being shut down. They call sciencists small-minded for not accepting their theories, yet they call themselves scientists. I mean, what do the scientists out there say? Is parapsychology a science? How do we stop these zealots taking up so much time and space? I have read in the discussions many heroic efforts by editors dealing patiently and kindly with these people. But, one look at ESP - and you can see who's winning. Debbyo 10:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Can interested editors please take a look at this article, and specifically to the issue raised here and comment ? Abecedare 22:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Not sure whether this is an issue for this noticeboard or for WP:RSN. As the article about Slavic mythology makes clear, our limited knowledge of the subject is based on a handful of extracts from disparate medieval sources. This reality is out of sync with the nature of Slavic nationalism, which mandates the existence of an elaborate pantheon with a number of gods and goddesses on the par with Greek and Roman mythology. As a result, some deities (such as Lel or Lada) are added and removed from the fictitious pantheon as time wears on.
One such example is Berehynia, a Slavic water sprite whose existence was ignored in academia several decades ago. You may find the background in the appropriate section of Slavic fairies, which is based on Boris Rybakov's highly authoritative monograph on Slavic mythology. The Slavic neo-pagans have recently magnified this barely attested sprite into a great goddess, described in the Ukrainian Wikipedia as "Mother of All Life", "Goddess of Nature and Kindness", etc. (мати всього живого, первісне божество-захисник людини, богиня родючості, природи та добра). This interpretation has been recently reinforced by the erection of a Berehynia statue on the Independance Square in Kiev. This statue represents an idealized girl (in fact, the sculptor's daughter) symbolizing Ukraine and is a reference point for modern Ukrainian nationalism.
Perhaps not suprisingly, an editor from Ukrainian Wikipedia started to insert in the lead of the article claims that Berehynia was a "pagan goddess" rather than an obscure spirit. [24] When asked to substantiate this newly popular claim, he linked our page to a farrago of Ukrainian/Russian websites disconnected from anything resembling academia (one of them is actually based on the notion of Aratta as the urheimat of Ukrainians). When I attempted to remove this utterly confused fringecruft, he proceeded to revert warring and started to involve other Ukrainian editors into the conflict. [25] [26] [27] [28] I request the community to investigate the claims of neo-pagans and nationalists and protect the page from editing, if need be. -- Ghirla -трёп- 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
No one claimed either of encyclopedias as sources! Where is this claim coming from is beyond me. Here is the citation from the English language source of Valparaiso University, Indiana: "It also examines how a cult figure, known variously as the great goddess, domestic madonna, hearth mother and today as the nation's mother, and widely portrayed in the media as such, can be transformed into an instrument of women's subjugation." Let's not be hasty and make superficial conclusions. -- Hillock65 20:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
It is undisputed that Berehynia passes as "great goddess" etc. in Ukrainian nationalism today. This is a product of Romanticism. The point is that this isn't based on any older (medieval) tradition, and that the older references to Berehynias make them Vila-like fairy creatures. Then the national romanticists came along and turned Berehynia (now singular) into a "goddess". This is just a matter of getting chronology right, nobody wants to prevent Slavic neopagans from considering Berehynia a "Slavic goddess". The entire point is that we need to make clear that this is a modern invention. -- dab (𒁳) 08:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Lozko may well be a scientist, but since this is not a scientific topic, we are citing her in her capacity as neopagan leader, not as a chemist or geologist or whatever her field may be. Lozko happens to be the chairman of the main neopagan organization of the Ukraine, Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL [31] You are perfectly aware of this, since, I take it, you read Ukrainian, and you presented Lozko's article as evidence. That's like presenting a papal bull and then acting outraged as people classify it as from the Roman Catholic viewpoint. Now please stop wasting my time with this. dab (𒁳) 15:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
My Ukrainian isn't too hot, to put it mildly, but from reading the Lozko page linked to at the bottom of the article, there isn't a lot about Berehynia in the primary sources from the Middle Ages and the name mostly appears there in the plural (Ім'я Берегині у формі множини згадується і в писемних християнських джерелах XI—XV ст.). Even Lozko seems to admit there's a difference between what she (or they) originally stood for and what she means today ( відома сьогодні як Богиня народної пам'яті - which, I'm guessing, means something like "seen today as a/the goddess of national memory"). So she's clearly been promoted from minor spirit to major goddess in more recent times, whether due to Romanticism, nationalism, neo-paganism or a combination of all three. -- Folantin 15:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I presume this is a case of romantic "deity reconstruction" along the lines of Eostre. The difference being that for Eostre, we have a big-time 19th century academic forwarding the hypothesis, while for Berehynia, we have a bunch of online essays. I would be ever so glad if we could come up with some actual scholarship, so we could state that thbe Berehynias "have been hypothesized in 19th century scholarship to continue an earlier single mother goddess" or similar. If Lozko cites no such academic precedents of her hypothesis, however, I don't know where we should get them. dab (𒁳) 15:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to have gone through a period of removing all criticism. The current article is completely and totally credulous, with any criticism being played-down or outright dismissed. E.g. phrases like "the feet only can influence but is not always the primary factor in causing an illness". It also had a whole unsourced section that was basically advertising. I removed that, of course. Help? Adam Cuerden talk 09:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Moosh88 ( talk · contribs) is the latest incarnation of fringy nationalist Armenian revisionism on Wikipedia. More eyes are appreciated. -- dab (𒁳) 13:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is actually pretty good, but there's one section that seems to synthesise information to tone down the fringiness of the material.
The paragraph in question reads (as of time of posting:
"Although extensive searches are underway for other environmental causes," links to a report ( [32]) that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the fringe theories being mentioned in the rest of the paragraph, and the second half of that sentence, "evidence for them is anecdotal and has not been confirmed by reliable studies" refers to completely different things. However, there is extreme resistance to accuracy in this section, for some reason, with all attempted changes being reverted to keep that study in that context, connected to things it does not mention. This is misrepresentation of the evidence.
There are other problems with this - It's not just that there's "anecdotal evidence that hasn't been confirmed". Let's go through these.
Copied to
Talk:Autism
Adam Cuerden
talk 13:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Dealt with. Editors there are cautious, but sensible. I just get worried when we're the third item on google. Adam Cuerden talk 21:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
just discovered this little gem, has been with us since July 2006... dab (𒁳) 06:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
If Vinay (or anyone else) wants to have a go at this article, they're perfectly welcome. I'll email off copies of the deleted content upon request, but I doubt anyone will find anything useful, and certainly nothing in the way of sources they could use (there were none). No: if someone is going to recreate this, it will need to be a completely fresh start IMO. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 20:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is all of two sentences Hemodrosis, also called hematidrosis, is an extremely rare medical condition that causes one to bleed through the pores. This is believed to be what Jesus suffered from in the garden because He knew of his upcoming crucifixion.[citation needed] I found it going through unreferenced articles and do not know what to do with it. The google links I looked at all mentioned the crucifixion and I did not see any purely medical references. -- BirgitteSB 19:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
a long term Sorgenkind, Race and Ancient Egypt ( since September 2005), now in two incarnations, Population history of Ancient Egypt and Race and ancient Egypt (controversies) (properly Afrocentrist Egyptology, currently protected). Pure FRINGE (even the question of the "blackness" of Egyptians is flawed), but aggressively pushed by a number of editors for months on end, and nobody can really be bothered enough to set the record straight. Any takers? See also Afrocentrism#Afrocentrism_and_academiaAfrocentrism#Afrocentrism_and_academia. This is, of course, an exclusively African-American topic (viz., US-centric). dab (𒁳) 13:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I honestly believe that Dab is spreading his/her own propaganda which is apparent in his redirecting of the page title (from Race and ancient Egypt (controversies), to Afrocentrist Egyptology)and participation in a former page for POV-fork Population history of Ancient Egypt. It is a widely known fact that Egyptology far and wide doesn't cover aspects of "race" and for that to even be addressed in a biological context, one must refer to anthropologists in order to assess its validity and how it may have pertained to the ancient Egyptians. Secondly, on the talk page in question I don't recall too many people subscribing to the idea of "race' and "black" as an expression of this race, which was reflected in the ancient population in question. But I do recall studies cited therein supporting the biological Africanity and relatedness to other Africans. Definitely by mostly all definitions, "white people" are not related to Africans so indeed, that seems much more of a fringe concern imo. However, "race" within its self may be described in such a way, but I'd have doubts about that as well. In any event, the inclusion is fruitless and pov-driven I suspect based partly on what I laid out above, which is why there is a lot of overstating in the presentation. Taharqa 22:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a completely unsourced alternative medical article claiming to be 93% effective.-- BirgitteSB 21:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate the assistance of some other editors, to battle what I regard as some fringe theories and original research being promoted by PHG ( talk · contribs). Unfortunately this is a fairly obscure topic about the time period of 1250-1310 or so during the Crusades. Part of the problem is that because it's so obscure, there are really only two editors that understand the subject matter enough (and have the time and interest) to be editing the article, myself and PHG. Others who may understand it, may pop in briefly and participate at the talkpage, but aren't really editing the article. So PHG and I are basically at an impasse. :/ To describe the situation in a nutshell:
I have tried an RfC [35]. But again, because it's such an obscure topic, it's difficult to get many other editors commenting. I have also suggested Mediation, but PHG has declined, [36] saying he doesn't want to spend his time arguing. We've managed to narrow down a couple issues to specific points where a couple other editors have agreed with a course of action, but then PHG argues that "3 against 1" (him being the one) still isn't a consensus, and so he continues to edit war (see: Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance#Introduction sentence)
A 3RR block isn't an option, because he and I are the only ones really editing (so in order for him to violate 3RR, I'd have to violate 3RR, and I don't want to do that). Also, looking at his contribs: PHG ( talk · contribs), this is the only thing he's doing, is camping on this article, for weeks now. In fact, I often have to wait until he's asleep if I want to edit the article, otherwise he's reverting me within minutes. :/ Please, I need help here, and any assistance would be appreciated. -- El on ka 21:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Pretty awful article - it's basically a long series of quotes with the mainstream position distorted and all mainstream evidence absent. I've put it up for AfD, but you know AfD: "Oh, we MUST! keep it! Google scholar found a couple non-notable books that mention the fellow in passing!" Adam Cuerden talk 16:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
the Armenian patriot trolls are at it again, have a look at 75.51.160.183 ( talk · contribs), Martiros Kavoukjian, Mitanni, Moosh88 ( talk · contribs). -- dab (𒁳) 06:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Benjamin P. Holder is asserting that NCDHR is an intisemittic and anti-hindu organisation that denies the holocost. The organisation has just received the Rafto Prize for it's human rights work. There is no mention of any of mr Holder's accusations in any mainstream media covering the organisation or award. Inge 10:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
this isn't a "fringe theory" it is the usual bickering and smearing in Indian "communalism". You call us fascists, so we'll call you fascists back. Facts have nothing to do with this at all. dab (𒁳) 09:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The "Alternative Hypothesis" section (which alleges one big government cover-up) of AZF is completely unsourced, and frankly reads like one big WP:POVPUSH. This isn't an article I've been involved in editing, just one I stumbled upon, so I'm giving you guys the heads-up. shoy 14:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Radionics ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) needs serious work, it contains several sentences which parse as nonsense, some very poor sources and a lot of uncritical text. Radionics was founded by "the dean of gadget quacks" (according to the American Medical Association) and appears to lack any credible basis in fact. Cruftbane 18:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
It'd be worth adding this to your watchlists: An editor came along and turned it into a pure nonsense article where she just made up stuff about quantum mechanics supporting alternate medicine woo. I deleted the page as nonsense, but it was pointed out that a perfectly good page hid there before the nonsense, so I restored the edits pre-nonsense. (Restoring th eones after nonsense by a known tag-team edit warrior seemed to be asking for trouble). Adam Cuerden talk 16:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Lots of problems with POV-pushing in recent edits, and it looks like more are coming. Adam Cuerden talk 06:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is another strange little article I am not sure what to do with.-- BirgitteSB 18:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Promotes drinking of urine and also for topical application. I wouldn't be surprised if the text in question does say these things. But this is at the least undue weight towards a fringe view already expounded at Urine therapy.-- BirgitteSB 17:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
...Awful, awful, awful articles. Adam Cuerden talk 18:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This seems pretty fringe to me. Now sources-- BirgitteSB 18:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
this is material I exiled from Amazons a while ago, slapping it with {{ unreferenced}}. It has just been sitting there since then. If anybody can be bothered, it could do with some straightening, pruning and de-fringification. -- dab (𒁳) 09:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
without comment -- see for yourselves. -- dab (𒁳) 11:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I am creating a Category:Origin hypotheses of ethnic groups so at least there is a way to keep track of these articles. dab (𒁳) 13:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much a POV-fork of the main homeopathy article; at best, a remnant of the recent homeopathy rewrite and consolidation that didn't get redirected, at worst, garbage.
I've put it up for AFD. Adam Cuerden talk 04:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Interested folks may care to comment at the deletion proposal for Category:Pseudoscience writers, currently in progress here. -- cjllw ʘ TALK 03:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
In my understanding, "proto-science" refers to historical science, prior to the Age of Enlightenment, such as Hellenistic astrology, Alchemy, and perhaps Aristotle, etc. On Wikipedia, the term seems to have morphed into an euphemism for pseudoscience, a field of study that appears to conform to the initial phase of the scientific method, with information gathering and formulation of a hypothesis, but involves speculation that is either not yet experimentally falsifiable or not yet verified or accepted So, we are presented with "proto-sciences" like ( List of protosciences, Category:Protoscience, what links here)
together with perfectly mainstream notions like Abiogenesis, Grand unification theory or M-theory and perfectly established fields like psychoanalysis or oneirology. dab (𒁳) 08:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
my beef is not so much with the Kuhn definition, but with the fact that it offers itself as a free-for-all: every pseudoscience will claim that it is "emerging" and will "eventually" gain the status of "real science". Anything labelled as "protoscience" will have to state clearly who so labelled it and in what context. Electromagnetic theories of consciousness is obviously pseudoscience, pure and simple, but apparently proponents have thought of forestalling the identification as such by claiming it as "protoscience". I suppose it will be enough to just remove all unsourced "protoscience" claims. Category:Protoscience should probably go as well. -- dab (𒁳) 09:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I have put the category on cfd. dab (𒁳) 16:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
To quote a bit:
And the whole talk page is starting to devolve into this OR and speculation, with demands that the page be changed to fit their views. Please help! Adam Cuerden talk 08:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion on the Talk:Ebionites page regarding the nature of the relationship of this generally little-known group with other groups in the area during the time of its existence. In fact, the discussion seems so hard to resolve that it was recently referred for mediation, which was rejected when one party refused to accept mediation. Personally, I don't know enough about the subject to say conclusively that one of the proposals being made there qualifies as a fringe theory, although based on what I do know that seems a very real possibility. If anyone here knows anything about this subject (which probably means you know more than at least I do about it), I would welcome any assistance in verifying one way or another exactly how widely accepted certain current theories regarding this group are. Thank you. John Carter 16:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
What an awful lot of pseudo-scientific nonsense. Was nominated for AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human chemistry, but was closed after a day or so as a non-admin closure; the closer invoked WP:SNOW although only 4 editors expressed opinions... 131.111.8.104 02:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Eyes needed, possibly a deletion candidate. this is a recent creation, motivated by the Ramsethu hubbub in progress in Indian politics at the moment. The alleged "hypothesis" is forwarded by Saroj Bala, Chief Commissioner of Income Tax in Amritsar, Punjab. No scholar would consider taking this (viz., extrapolating information on a Stone Age biography from a 300 BC narrative) seriously for five seconds. dab (𒁳) 14:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
ok, googling around I find some 500 pages on "historical Ram(a)" (compare "flood geology" with 50,000 hits). It transpires that S.R. Rao (an archaeologist known to be carried away with antiquity frenzy and fantastical claims) has voiced his opinion on the matter. [38] google books gives some 60 hits. It appears that a better case for discussion of the topic could be made than the "two goverment employees" one. If somebody wants to write this article, do go ahead. -- dab (𒁳) 16:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Arsenicum album ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) needs some work, I think. It is essentially an uncritical restatement of the homeopaths' version. Cruftbane 16:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Strong attempts to restore the deleted revision of Quantum biology, with all its "Quantum mechanics supports Alternate medicine" charm. Homeopathy has also been attacked by the nutters at WP:TIMETRACE, which sounds like a reasonable project, until you see what the members actually do. Adam Cuerden talk 16:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Article Chinmoy is subject to information suppression, and reads like a press release or advertisement for the now deceased figure and his organization, and associated fringe theories, not an encylopedia article. Attempts by various, more skeptical or neutral editors to put a POV tag to warn readers that there is an NPOV controversy, or that the article reads like an advertisement, and any critical, controversial or skeptical information, for example, questions about whether claimed but improbable record weight lifts were accurately reported [39], or even factual information about controversies, such as [40], are systematically removed by User Fencingchamp. [41] User Fencingchamp also seems to distort the relative weights of the body of scholarly research and opinion regarding the validity of critical testimony of disillusioned followers and critics as proving such testimony is vilification, [42], when there is no such consensus on the issue [43] and no justification for totally eliminating the controversy section.-- Dseer 03:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
In addition, I found this what appears to be the prefered version of the article? -- Rocksanddirt 17:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Article (together with associated walled garden, apparently) presenting wild speculations of some Christian fundamentalist hobby "archaeologists" about alleged archaeological remains of Noah's Arc as if they were serious scholarship. Not sure if I'll have the stamina to clean this up myself, need help. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Greek journalist pushing his own theory of the Insensé on Wikipedia. Also at Albert Camus (apparently when Camus used the word insensé he wasn't referring to the existentialist Theory of the Absurd but to his own synaesthesia. You learn something new every day). -- Folantin 20:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Auno3 ( talk · contribs) (who signs as Gold Nitrate) has been trying to push material on miscegenation and dysgenics into a number of articles, including Human [44], Human evolution [45], Societal collapse [46] and Risks to civilization, humans and planet Earth [47]. Not to mention racist POV edits to dysgenics, black people and others. Some more eyes on these articles and edits would be appreciated, as would any suggestions on how the articles on dysgenics, societal collapse etc, can be cleaned up. – ornis ⚙ 01:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The articles involved are important articles, and this user has repeatedly indicated by her/his editing actions that s/he is not interested in complying with even the most basic Wikipedia policies. There are more important things to do than constantly monitor these articles for the kind of nonsense this user is injecting. Please resolve the issue with an indef block until such time as this user sees her/his way clear to participating in a constructive way, at which time the user may ask for reinstatement and attempt to demonstrate a willingness to contribute in accordance with the editorial and behavioral policies. ... Kenosis 04:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I hate to be one helps who puts who helps put the kibosh on presenting important material that may change our entire way of thinking, but I'm reasonably sure there are some policies around here relevant to
this new article. See also
this afd, and for those who can view the deleted contributions of User:Ny2292000 probably a whole lot more. A speedy deletion of the article and images would be fine, as would a block of the
WP:SPA, but I thought I'd mention it here as it's likely to come up again sometime in the future.
Tim Shuba 17:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a law, stating that it is unlikely a given author has landed a major breakthrough in theoretical physics if he is beaten by the complexities of Wikipedia procedures as he is trying to write an article on his discoveries. -- dab (𒁳) 08:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Could people watching this noticeboard please comment at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Sadi Carnot? Thanks. Carcharoth 19:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
This [48] and related articles are another example where article ownership and POV editing is obvious and criticism is lacking. The articles assert fringe theories like TM-Sidhi program, including yogic flying, Maharishi Effect, Maharishi Vedic Science, Invincible Defense [49], as well as controversial medical claims, with undue weight. -- Dseer 06:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The family of pages at Category:Integral theory, Category:Integral thought, Category:Ken Wilber, and Category:Sri Aurobindo go into great technical detail about the beliefs and biographies surrounding fringe New Age-y theories with little or no coverage in mainstream, independent sources. (For example: " Zimmerman is the only scholar to take space alien phenomenology seriously.") I've recently prodded a bunch of them, but I expect those to be contested by the authors. Fireplace 18:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I've also created Collected Works of Sri Aurobindo as a useful merge target. I think our problem articles are those in Category:Integral thought and Category:Integral theory, because these categories are WP:SYN in themselves. Category:Sri Aurobindo is not a problem, since its articles are clearly attributed to a specific esoteric school. dab (𒁳) 09:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
A coatrack for Tesla-POV pushing. ScienceApologist 20:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature: Tesla's Science of Energy (2nd nomination). Please comment. ScienceApologist 23:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
A fringe theory regarding the earliest mention of the name Armenia and Armenian people in history is currently circulated in Wikipedia by some Armenian editors. Recently the main article of Armenia itself has unfortunately been a target. Basically the majority of modern scholars assert the view that the earliest mention of the name Armenia/Armenians was in the 6th century BC aproximately around the same time by Greeks and Persians. Hecataeus of Miletus and the Behistun Inscriptions of Darius I. Scholars who say that these are unequivocally the first known instances the name Armenia has been mentioned include Dennis R. Papazian (Professor of History, The University of Michigan) [50], Mark Chahin (author of the peer reviewed Kingdom of Armenia [51]), James B Minahan (Miniature Empires: A Historical Dictionary of the Newly Independent States [52]), Elizabeth Redgate (The Armenians [53]), Richard G. Hovannisian, PROFESSOR EMERITUS Ph.D., UCLA, 1966 Armenian Educational Foundation Professor of Modern Armenian History ( [54]) etc. Despite this the following line has been added to the main Armenia article: "Another view marks Sumerian inscriptions of Naram-Suen dating to 2260 BC as "the earliest mention of the name in a form recognizable as Armenian". It is supported by a ciation from Thomas J Samuelian (a linguist who has nothing to do with history) who is referring to Artak Movsisyan as his source, a historian from Armenia with no published work outside of Armenia with incredibly far fetched theories. This attempt basically pushes back the first mention of Armenia 17 centuries back from what most scholars agree with. -- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
this isn't a concent dispute, it's just an administrative task of keeping the angy young patriots in check. Last year, it was the Hindutvavadis, now it's the Armenian national mysticists, they'll grow tired just like all their predecessors. -- dab (𒁳) 16:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Samuelain is a respected scolar, "Mr Samuelian is the author of a number of books, articles, reviews, and translations in the field of Armenian language, literature, and history, including a recent English translation of St. Gregory of Narek’s Book of Prayers: Speaking with God from the Depths of the Heart (www.stgregoryofnarek.am), a two-volume Course in Modern Western Armenian, Dictionary of Armenian in Transliteration. He has taught at the University of Pennsylvania, Columbia University, and St. Nersess Seminary. Mr. Samuelian holds his J.D. from Harvard and his Ph.D. in linguistics from the University of Pennsylvania" [55]. His Armenological researches and works used by [56] (a research for ICHD), [57] (Gomidas Institute journal), [58], [59], [60] (Oxford journal), [61], [62]. Samuelian wrote: "Others cite Sumerian inscriptions of Naram-Suen dating to 2260 BC as the earliest mention of the name in a form recognizable as Armenian. These inscriptions refer to Sumerian battles with the Armani [21]". The ref. #21 didn't mark Artak Movsisyan (Im not sure but as I know Artak Movsisyan's books are related to Aratta, not Naram Suen: surely this Naram Suen version existed before him, pls read the source its online, to not falsify what sources are used), it marks an Armenian academian (Ishkhanian, On the Origin..., 1989, p. 46, and Bnik hayeren barer, 1989, p. 56) and a foreign scolar (B. Hrozny, Naram-Sim et ses ennemis: un Texte Hittite, 56-75). Dr. Anzhela Teryan also marks: "*"The king of Akkad Naram-Sin used the Armani state name for the state in Armenian highland (2500s BC)". (in Armenian) Anzhela Teryan (PhD on historiography, senior researcher of State Museum of Yerevan), "The cult of Ar god in Armenia", Yerevan, Aghvank, 1995, p. 29." Have you any quotations from the scolars marked by you? If yes, and if they are really a majority, why to not just call this other view "a minority view" and stop to call them "idiotic" etc. have you any reviews criticizing them? if no, whats the problem? Andranikpasha 21:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I know, see antiquity frenzy, Armenian nationalism. You have no idea of the crap I regularly clean out from places like Hurrian language or Subartu. Not just Armenian, also Kurdish and Syriac -- it appears that everybody from the region who doesn't identify as Arab or Turkish has abandoned all reason in touting their antiquity. Unnecessarily, since it is undisputed that Turks and Arabs are intrusive to the area, but there is still a slight difference between 1000 BC and 2000 BC (about a thousand years, I'd say). -- dab (𒁳) 10:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Please comment here: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Reddi/Dynamic Theory of Gravity. Thanks ScienceApologist 23:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
My sixth (seventh?) sense detects a certain odor sorry I mean aura emanating from this, which is already being flatteringly summarized elsewhere. Perhaps it's merely promotion, so common in Wikipedia. Anyway, I fear that although I'd be able to Google, etc., this week; I shan't have time to take a major role in arguing with the contributor. -- Hoary 00:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
prod was removed. this belongs on afd as an OR essay. -- dab (𒁳) 11:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
sources are cited, but what are the sources for the method itself? it's as if the author developed the method as he goes along (WP:SYN). dab (𒁳) 19:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello all,
There's something of a low-key edit-war going on at Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus regarding the inclusion (or not) of a theory by Joseph Schechtman, a "historian" who has been discredited for grossly misquoting sources by the Author Erskine Childers (UN) (much in the same way Joan Peters who, interestingly enough, quotes Schechtman excessively, was unmasked by Norman Finkelstein). This was later acknowledged by the historian Stephen Glazer (Glazer, Steven. (Summer 1980) The Palestinian Exodus in 1948. Published by Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 9, No. 4.) and not refuted since.
The "theory" presented is called the Fear Psychosis Theory, which implies that Palestinians were so obsessed with there own atrocities towards Jews, that they developed a Psychosis (yep, you read that correctly, a mental disorder) that the same cruelty would be bestowed upon them in retaliation. The text used in the article is
“ | Schechtman, argues in his book The Arab Refugee Problem that a large part of the exodus was caused by a phenomenon which he calls The Fear Psychosis, namely Arab fear of attack,
reprisal and the other stresses of war. Schechtman himself attributes this to purely to the perspective of the refugees. He expounds this theory as follows:
|
” |
This, in my opinion, qualifies as a fringe theory and should be removed. The most pertinent arguments are:
Schechtman's defenders in this article point out that while no other authors support his theory, he is nevertheless quoted. This is true, but in most cases he is quoted for other things (Morris, for instance, quotes him only for his analogies to the Muslim-Hindu transfer in 1947-8), to rip him to pieces (e.g. Glazer, Childers or Finkelstein).
This dispute regarding Schechtman has been going on for a while and seems to be headed towards a WP:RFAR. It would be nice to get some "professional" opinions here before it lands there.
Cheers and thanks, pedro gonnet - talk - 26.10.2007 06:18
P.S. You can follow the talk-page discussion here.
It doesn't get any more fringy than that. No notability apparent, at all. dab (𒁳) 10:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I've stumbled on this with suspicion in the past, and now, in the light of this review, it is clear that this article falls within the scope of this noticeboard. Extensive reviewing and rewriting needed. dab (𒁳) 15:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
it's difficult to judge. Apparently important discoveries were made, but the excavators in their enthusiasm of having found an "ancient civilization" in the middle of the "Iranian homeland" went completely cranky for joy and began presenting fantastic dates and far-out claims. I imagine this topic is tied up in Iranian national mysticism, and we'll have to be aware of this when evaluating sources. dab (𒁳) 12:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
An image, Image:Evp1.png, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Thank you. ScienceApologist 01:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC) ScienceApologist 01:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
In the Thought Field Therapy article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Field_Therapy , someone who goes by the name of Boodlesthecat added a reference of a Letter to the Editor I wrote stating an opinion supportive of TFT when it was obvious that this was an outdated reference and that I have publicly retracted my views on TFT. I tried to point this out to Boodlesthecat and delete this, but Boodlesthecat reverted it and accused me of "suppressing" information. I then actually wrote to the journal being referenced (Traumatology) and wrote a retraction for the particular letter that was cited and then put that into the article. In the Traumatology retraction I stated that Boodlesthecat putting this in, in the first place was misleading and really tangential to the topic of hand, which was to cite published articles on TFT, not bring in letters to the editor. No reputable encyclopedia would put in letters to the editor where enthusiastic supporters were merely stating opinions (as was the case with the retracted letter I had previously written). Please note that in addition to the Traumatology retraction I just put in after this incident, there was also an earlier article I had published in 2005 where I explicitly stated agreement with the review by Hooke in question so there really was no good reason for Boodlesthecat to be citing this outdated reference that misrepresents my present views. I would like to have this removed. Another point in terms of the quality of the article, is that an enthusiastic opinion from a TFT devotee (which I was at the time I wrote that retracted letter) is tangential and having to then put in the fact I retracted the letter really makes the article appear very poorly written. If people really wanted to add "balance" they could have cited and quoted from Roger Callahan's response article to the review in question, rather than a letter to the editor from an enthusiastic TFT devotee merely stating an opinion that was late retracted. I will be writing about this incident in an article I have been invited to write for an APA publication, by the way. -- MonicaPignotti 14:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC) copied from Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard-- BirgitteSB 19:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
... has been unprotected. Sane input and more eyes please. The effort invested in muddying this issue is staggering. -- dab (𒁳) 14:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
That article is one of the worse things about Wikipedia. An example of Wikialty ? Black and wooly haired Cholchians ! Wow.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 03:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman: what is so difficult to understand here? If it's Egyptology, cite Egyptological WP:RS. If it's archaeogenetics, cite genetics WP:RS. "Some afrocentrists" do not qualify as either, and their opinion is not of academic interest. There are academics discussing this afrocentrism thing, but these are sociologists, not Egyptologists. This is eerily parallel to Out of India: ideologists with no academic background call "discrimination by white imperialist academia", playing the race card until Egyptologists do feel compelled to explain why they are ignoring their "contributions" (because they have no merit). Look, if this was about editors insisting on organizing the Germanic peoples article along the pros and cons of Nordicism, I don't think we would be having this debate. If you can discuss the "Race of Ancient Egyptians" by referring to peer-reviewed Egyptological literature, please do that, but sprinkling the article with afrocentrist ideology and its debunking is precisely what we do not want, and what WP:FRINGE is built to prevent. -- dab (𒁳) 07:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman, dude, did you read anything I wrote? Yes, Afrocentrists can be notable as primary sources, on the topic of Afrocentrism, but not Ancient Egypt. This is what I have been preaching all along. Now please go and take a good long look at WP:UNDUE. (some help, anyone?) -- dab (𒁳) 13:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
ScienceApologist, this is what I am talking about. The article has no business to be in some undefined limbo "outside the bounds of mainstream Egyptology and archaeogenetics", not on Wikipedia it doesn't. At present, it is half about serious population history, and half about the most outrageous kookery, and it doesn't distinguish the two. This will not do, cases such as this is why we have this noticeboard, and we will not be done with this article until it is clearly split into one part that is academic, and one that is fringy-but-notable. The present situation is untenable: it is designed to confuse the reader. it is designed to give an academic spin to absolute kookery by conflating valid and invalid terms in the most irresponsible manner. And this is why it needs to be cleaned up and {{ split}}. -- dab (𒁳) 14:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman, there is no such controversy outside afrocentrist propaganda. Feel free to develop a separate Afrocentrist Egyptology article (sheesh, I've been advocating that for weeks). But stop pretending this has anything to do with academia. Bottom line, do one article on Afrocentrist Egyptology, focussing on whatever this is worth, and one about population history of Ancient Egypt, reflecting academic debate on the topic. dab (𒁳) 16:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually quite a few reliable and notable scholars have gotten in on the discussion of the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians and what color their skin was, etc. See the sources in the actual article. Wikidudeman (talk) 00:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
FFS, Wikidudeman, then why doesn't the article discuss the work of "reliable and notable scholars" and goes for this Diop character instead? Can we decide whether this article is even supposed to be on reliable scholarship, soon? and if so, clean out all the cranks? I have no objection of a discussion of AE ethnicity, as long as only academic sources are used. dab (𒁳) 13:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that Green fireballs may need some balance. Bubba73 (talk), 05:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Should ghost lights merge to will o' the wisp? See Talk:ghost light. ScienceApologist 00:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Quackwatch#Request for Comments. Thanks. ScienceApologist 02:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This article is awful. Adam Cuerden talk 23:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Also A Guide for the Perplexed. Adam Cuerden talk 23:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you arch-deletionists can explain your rationale for wishing to delete this article at this particular time. thanks Peter morrell 18:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
When you have answered my question I will explain why antireductionism is different from holism. Given that you do not know the difference speaks for itself: why are you even editing this article? which brings me back to my point - why now? why merge them? what is your motivation? You are certainly both arch-deletionlists; that is not name calling, it is an observation of fact. Peter morrell 19:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
"We did give reasons: NPOV, unclear writing, and possible redundancy with a better article."
You can carry on like this if you wish but until you answer my questions it's a no go. Read what I wrote for example and answer the specific points. Thus far you have not. Peter morrell 20:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for YOUR POV. If this is so then why was it Adam who made the action? however, in relation to the question, AR is really a suspicion on the part of many, esp in the social sciences, but also in portions of biology, that reductionism is too simplistic for adequately describing complex systems and processes and that it innately oversimplifies and thus distorts and misleads. Especially in ecology and weather systems for example. Such folks do not believe that reductionism inherently can generate the answers it promises: it can prove to be non-insightful. Holism by contrast believes that phenomena in general are best perceived as wholes rather than via analysis of parts. I agree these are close to each other but holism is probably the broader concept and I would say they are different precisely because both terms occur in academic discourse...which kind of justifies their separate inclusion here. Also I would say the AR article is much better than the other one which is very poorly ref'd and too generalised to be of much use. It looks like a rag bag mix of all sorts of odd stuff simply thrown together. I guess you will disagree. What attracts you to fringe theories as you like to call them? and why clean them up when embryogenesis and embryology cry out to be merged but I don't see you two banging on about that. BTW I am a zoologist by training so I disagree with your view of my understanding of what science is. If you do merge them then please merge them proper rather than deleting whole swathes of stuff. OK? cheers Peter morrell
What do you mean by actual training? I completed my degree and after a couple of years went into teaching mostly environmental science and ecology plus some bio and biochemistry and a lot of fieldwork and pollution studies type stuff, very enjoyable. More recently an MPhil in history. does that suffice? how is this relevant? I think my doubting view of some aspects of science stems from teaching about nuclear power and ecology which cannot be fully understood via reductionism; you have to look at social issues, politics and economics or at complex organism interactions--the wider picture--to get a grip of them both; apart from which scepticism of science claims is a good thing and in my case that flows from my study of sociology and philosophy for my MPhil which are core aspects for understanding historical processes. The world is not as black and white as science pretends and science is largely profit-driven sadly so you cannot separate the scientific view of life from these background realities of it as an enterprise. It is very largely a belief system little different from a religion. sorry I have rambled on. Peter morrell 21:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Christos Papachristopoulos (AKA ChrysJazz ( talk · contribs) or 77.49.178.72 ( talk · contribs) is at it again, promoting his own philosophy (especially at articles related to Albert Camus). Prime examples: Nuclear Philosophy of Media and Mathemagics. An AfD established that the guy's bio was non-notable, so his philosophy definitely should not be here. Any advice on the quickest way to proceed to put a stop to all this would be greatly appreciated. -- Folantin 10:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Appears to be pseudoscience, much of it devoted to promoting the views of a single editor ( User:Hkhenson, in real life Keith Henson). Has been the subject of much debate in the past, including an aborted attempt at mediation. I would welcome more opinions before taking this to AfD, and possibly recommending action against the editor. Physchim62 (talk) 13:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Keith Henson 03:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Ugh. Is there any source that's not by Keith Henson that uses the term "capture bonding"? I mean a reliable source, not [wisegeek.com]. The sources that are by Keith Henson are published in sources like The Human Nature Review, which appears not to be peer reviewed. This article looks like a bunch of self-promoting pseudoscience to me. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Comments anyone can make on my proposal here would be most appreciated. Cheers, Skinwalker 14:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
In Gibbs paradox, Lin Shukun has been adding massive amounts of material which references his own works. He seems to be applying information theory to thermodynamics. Given that Lin Shukun is self-published by the same publishing house that publishes Libb Thims (a.k.a. User:Sadi Carnot and User:Wavesmikey), and the historic misapplication of information theory to things like evolution, I'm skeptical. Will someone please check this out? Kww 14:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is a constant problem. It describes a theory, or group of theories, that Jesus was not a historical person. This theory has absolutely no respect within modern academia, and is therefore a fringe theory. It had some scholarly impact in the early 20th century and it's currently espoused by several popular authors ("popular" meaning "non-academic" in this context), so it's notable enough for its own article. However, from time to time editors pop up and insist that it's not a fringe theory, despite the quotes in the article illustrating the low regard for the idea within academia. Input from outside parties would be helpful. --Akhilleus ( talk) 15:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
indeed. this is another example of an article that only ever attracts attention from people enthusiastic about the topic. Hence the usual self-balancing effects do not come into play. I have had a hell of a time of even getting the point across that Christ as myth is a perfectly valid topic in itself completely unrelated to the historicity question. It simply isn't very enjoyable to discuss with people on a level where you need to point out that "mythology" isn't the antithesis of "historicity" and that it is perfectly unsurprising that a mythology attaches itself to historical characters ( Charlemagne isn't unhistorical just because there are folk tales about him). Of course the whole edifice of "there is mythology -- hence Jesus cannot be historical" collapses as soon as you get this point across, so people are bound to make a great effort at Not Getting It. Ceterum censeo: the exact same mechanism is at play at Race of Ancient Egyptians and Afrocentrism. It is a disgrace that Wikipedia allows articles like that to state blatant bullshit for months on end just because the conspiracy theorists play dumb and keep playing the race card. Can people please put these articles on their watchlists and make an occasional effort at cutting down the worst bits? dab (𒁳) 11:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
and Category:Spiritual warfare. I have my doubts on the validity of these. Apparently pov-forks of Demonology and Exorcism, but the category strangely also has entries like Michael Harner, a New Age neo-shaman. -- dab (𒁳) 18:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
There are a number of paranormal infoboxes:
An interesting argument was put forth by another user at Talk:Electronic voice phenomenon that these boxes might be serving as a runaround for WP:NPOV because they promote "in universe" definitions and classifications. What makes a place, creature, encounter, person, event, or term "paranormal"?
I'm not sure about this and so I am posting it here for input. Do infoboxes of these sorts serve to prevent verifiable and accurate framing of encyclopedic subjects? Should perhaps these infoboxes be deleted in the interest of preserving WP:NPOV?
ScienceApologist 17:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
In many cases, removing the infobox would actually be EXTREME POV PUSHING. For example, if I were to remove the paranormal terminology infobox from an entry about a disputed gravity phenomona relating to spooks or UFOs (etc) and were to replace it with a physics taxonomy box about gravity, I would be making the EXPLICIT statement that the disputed gravity phenomona was an accepted part of physic, or that it was at least based on physics. Even if I were to replace it with a disputed science taxonomy box (the closest thing that there is to the paranormal terminology box at present) I would still be implying that there was scientific rationale somewhere in the process. Both of which are clearly unacceptable. Even by removing the box altogether I would still be breaching Wikiregs by committing a WP:Point violation because I'd be removing valid information about the noun or phrase in popular culture because I disagreed with the place of the topic (that the noun or phrase was describing) in the natural order. I'd also be in breach of the recent Arbcom which stated that something that exists in belief is valid so long as it is framed correctly, regardless of the topics place in science.
perfectblue 10:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
They are actually stated as being a highly desirable inclusion for FA status. Thus removing these infoboxes would more or less deny any paranormal entry, no matter how well written and NPOV the chance to reach FA status. I personally don't see how defining a noun or phrase would create a "Walled Garden", if users dispute the contents of a box then they can just put up a Fact tag and request citable evidence that the definition is accurate. For example, the word "Ghost" is in the dictionary, therefore it is verifiable as a real and existing noun. Do people claim that it's inclusion in the dictionary is POV pushing, no, then they claim isn't valid here either.
- perfectblue 10:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Where are the contradictions? Real terminology only, no words from the X-files etc, must comply with Wikiregs. Besides, most of this is actually standard practice on Wikipedia has been part of the MOS for quite a while. Please see WP:WTA for further information it tells you to avoid all pejorative language. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Please don't twist things. A "real" term or phenomona is one that complies with WP:V and WP:RS. Real it's the opposite to Fiction or neologism. As was clearly stated underneath. I've changed the wording, your argument is now void. You may delete it if you wish. If you have an issue with the wording in an infobox, then that should be met at the article level. Deleting the template because you disagree with something that a third party has written in it would be a point violation. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Belief is an observable phenomona and a noun such as "Ghost" is a definable term. your argument is void. You may delete it is you wish. Also, the recent Arbcom clearly stated that notably beliefs outside of the mainstream are valid for inclusion. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
ScienceApologist, your sentiment flies in the face of the recent Arbcom which stated clearly that topics which are notable but which are outside of the mainstream remain valid topics. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I am seriously concerned that this discussion is even happening. As the creator of 75% of these info boxes I can clearly and unequivocally state that they were created for the purpose of providing basic definitions of what a term means or how a phenomena is described (even if a phenomona isn't actually real, it's still efinable). If users have a POV issue with their content then this should be dealt with at the article level, not at the template level. All of these templates are fully citable and comply with all WP regs.
I'm afraid that the removal of these boxes would constitute a WP:Point violation and would set a very bad president as it would in essence be saying that no Paranormal entry can ever have an infobox because the presence of an infobox would be POV pushing that the paranormal was real, when in fact all the presence of an infobox does is show that the term is definable on paper.
To answer some of the above questions
No. As per the recent Arbcom ruling, the infoboxes clearly display the word "Paranormal" thus providing full and accurate framing. A user can in no way mistake then for a scientific taxonomy box. What they do is they provide a pure definition explaining exactly what a term actually means and in what context it is being used.
Let me put this into context. The Paranormal terminology box was put in place to explain how a particular word or phrase should be used and in what context it is used, it also explains the origins of the word and its limitations of use. In essence, it is the purest form of encyclopedic content.
Terminology | |
---|---|
Coined by | Robert W. Wescott (1973) |
Definition | The use of scientific methods to evaluate phenomona that fall outside of current understanding, with the aim of finding a rational explanation. [1] |
Signature | The study of phenomena that appear to be at odds with current scientific understanding |
See also | Parapsychology, Charles Fort |
I have changed this, your argument is now void, you may delete it if you wish. I however hold that all paranormal content must include a pure definition. For example while ghosts might be a controversial entities with no scientific verification, the word "ghost" is quite clearly a noun with a defined meaning and definition. The infobox defines the noun, not the entity.
perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Earlier this year an Arbcom actually [Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paranormal#Paranormal_as_an_effective_tag ruled 8-0] that introducing something as being paranormal was effective framing. It also ruled 8-0 that a lot of paranormal terminology has the status of being a cultural artifact used to describe or define something in belief or culture, rather than in science, and thus it's inclusion or use cannot be POV pushing for the scientific existence of said terminology.
The same arbcom also ruled 8-1 that the aim of an entry about the paranormal is to inform the readers about the topic and the debate surrounding it, NOT to produce an entry that reaches a scientifically valid conclusion on the topic. Therefore it is valid to include a definition and a description of the terminology used in the topic or the event which is said to have occurred in the topic. Any disputed over the nature of this description or definition should be dealt with at the article level, not the template level.
In relation to the above, I will pose the question "Have any of these infoboxes been used with fictional terms?" if so then they should be removed. Whether in universe or out of universe, these infoboxes should only be used for verifiable real world terms. For example, if it was made up fo rthe X-files and exists only within the X-files, then it shouldn't use this infobox'
I've recently come across (and added to) {{ autism rights movement}} and {{ autism cure movement}}. They may reflect POV and may be alternate sides of the same coin; I haven't read enough of the articles to sort it all out, but on the surface, they seem to fall into the same territory as this paranormal template discussion. Almost nothing in the autism rights movement template is cited, and many of the articles are unsourced essays or POV, so I'm also wondering about the best use of templates to possibly advance POV. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 20:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Have a look at the discussion page for history of the problems. Problem started with the question, whether a separate article is usefull at, as the term Zero-point field isn't nearly unused in physics (there's zero-point energy, vacuum energy and vacuum expectation value. But the most recent problem is the handling of B.G. Sidharth's theories, see the diffs. -- Pjacobi 23:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a debacle over largely anonymous claims that this Italian family descends from the Julii, the family of Julius Caesar. The page was protected and radically scaled-down to remove the elaborate hoax. Now there's some attrition warfare on the talk page. -- Ghirla -трёп- 15:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
an anon editor, now Winai Zhaa ( talk · contribs), has secret knowledge of unpublished versions of the text and wants to impress on us that our discussion of the published versions are "misinforming the public". dab (𒁳) 09:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC).
I am not sure whether recent edits to Vedanga Jyotisha by Winai Zhaa ( talk · contribs) qualify as fringe, or only POV OR. Can someone knowledgeable about the subject, take a look. Abecedare 09:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Why it happens that each time people start discussing Shakespeare, the discussion ends up by being hijacked by those folks who believe the plays were written by Marlowe, Bacon, Queen Elizabeth, etc.? The fate of humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare is instructive in this respect. To quote Bishonen's summary of the situation in Wikipedia: " Smatprt seems to be a tireless pest at William Shakespeare, where he edit wars to make the classic crank Shakespeare-wasn't-Shakespeare theory as large and as undue-weighty a part of the article as possible. His intentions are no doubt good, but his practice is destructive, and he makes the lives of the other Shakespeare editors wearisome". [1] Although the issue is not urgent, this activity is disturbing and needs to be investigated. -- Ghirla -трёп- 22:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
since there is a full article dedicated to this, there is really no excuse to refer to this by more than a brief sentence in the main William Shakespeare article. dab (𒁳) 23:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a complaint about Smatprt's violations here on the Administrator's Noticeboard with contributions from many aggrieved editors. [ [2]] ( Felsommerfeld 12:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC))
please note:
See Talk:Allais effect. —Steven G. Johnson 22:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
scientific fact: Amazons were Turks! "you can watch sometimes PBS about this research and accept the Chinese history records". The situation seems under control so far, but chime in if you like. dab (𒁳) 08:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Two proponents of technical analysis are POV-pushing and tag-teaming removing NPOV tags such that a single editor cannot hope to achieve balance on the page. THF 02:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
A purported perpetual motion machine. A cursory read of the articel makes it sound as though someone's trying to give possibility of actual use (IE. Violation of some principle of physics) under the guise of NPOV. Can't tell for sure though. 68.39.174.238 18:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
78.62.22.250 ( talk · contribs) goes around articles on Indo-European languages, touting the Paleolithic Continuity Theory as the latest scientific breakthrough. dab (𒁳) 12:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A user has started debate based on his interpretation of Bible Verse. Essentially, the editor argue that "Amen" is actually a reference to "[Amon-Ra]]" (Egyptian Sun God). He has provided no evidence other than his interpretation, and started an RFC on the matter. Pats Sox Princess 04:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Could someone with a proper academic background please take a look at this article. During the last few days it has been the subject of a whitewash that introduced a bunch of details from Red Rain studies. ˉˉ anetode ╦╩ 01:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There is in fact a published paper in 2006 in "Astrophysics and Space Science abstract, though it is not quite the same. This is a perfectly reputable peer-reviewed journal. for a comment on it see New Scientist, where the editor of the journal goes to an extraordinary degree of distancing himself from it, saying in effect that it was accepted by his coeditor, who has since died. Note that I think the hypothesis is total nonsense, but this is a major mainstream journal. It is anyway not unusual in astrophysics and physics for speculative or even substantial papers to be deposited in arxiv and not further published--some very major work in mathematics for example, has been published that way. Between Springer & New Scientist I dont think it can be omitted as irresponsible or minute fringe. (I commented in the deletion discussion that there is after all the precedent of prions, which do not contain nucleic acid. Frankly, I didnt believe in them either for years, but the Nobel Prize committee disagreed with me.) DGG ( talk) 06:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there a "fifth Veda"? Are efforts to cover up the existence of the Fifth Veda part of a sinister conspiracy? You be the judge. Buddhipriya 04:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
no, there is no "fifth Veda" in any meaninful sense. Delete on sight.
dab
(𒁳) 16:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Forget a fifth veda, there isnt even a 'fourth' veda, technically. According to one school of thought, the Atharva/Aatharvana veda is only what Atharva Rishi put together from the the other three Vedas. Sarvagnya 20:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I created Fifth Veda. I must admit, I was not aware that already the Chandogya Upanishad had such a reference. dab (𒁳) 22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Ralphyde, seems to be editing the RSI page to include information about a one Dr. John E. Sarno, who has a book. He cites the book as evidence of the doctor's work. I don't believe his intentions are bad, he claims the book helped his wife, but it is a fringe theory, without much mainstream evidence.
I think the idea of Tension myositis syndrome is an ideal example of a fringe theory and it's impact on the Repetitive Strain Injury page should therefore be reduced from what it is now. As a side note, people have been working hard lately to reduce the lack of NPOV to the John E. Sarno page, and it's kinda interesting to see the debate there. Kaddar 01:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, User: Bremskraft has been quite active in their campaign to discredit articles that don't meet some personal level of social consciousness or at least it certainly seems that way. As a member of the Discrimination WP project I first came into contact reverting edits to our template and then (perhaps foolishly) helping user see that the articles in question needed improvement not the template. I'm posting on this board for assistance or advice as to what makes sense. This user has apparently also taken an aggressive and non-cooperative approach on other articles so my hope is to see them gently veered back into the community spirit as I do feel their insight and editing could be of use but right now is borderline abusive. My talk page comments as well as another editors were simply deleted [10] and my biggest concern presently is 1. Where to start cleaning up the tag riddled article Masculism and 2. how to encourage this potentially valuable editor to be more constructive than tag-happy? All help appreciated. Benjiboi 08:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
exported from Swastika, apparently in a cleanup effort at the main article, and since then graced with an "OR" tag. dab (𒁳) 12:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Crap, it's a big copyvio. http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/bronze.html and http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/sw/swpi.html ← Ben B4 18:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Well it turns out that the author of the apparent violations was the one who inserted them, and he has agreed to place a copyright release on the source page. As for the fringe theory content, I can't agree that there is any because the archaeological images displayed on the page and author's source text clearly show swastikas. ← Ben B4 00:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
yes, sorry -- the author of this is the author of that website ( WP:COI). I am not disputing the validity of the article topic itself: After all, even Carl Sagan has suggested it, and Sagan is about as emphatically anti-fringe as you can be. The point is that the author of this website more or less uses Wikipedia as a mirror. His theory is completely fringy, or for purposes of Wikipedia, WP:SYN. Of course there are archaeological artefacts displaying swastika motifs. But the claim that this has anything to do with coments, and with bird feet, is completely pulled out of thin air. If Korbes' ideas are supposed to be repeated in WP's voice, there would need to be academic reviews of his book. dab (𒁳) 18:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
This user has been adding material to feminism related pages. Their additions claim that feminists are nazis and that profeminist men are like KKK auxiliaries. [14] [15] [16] The material itself is unsourced original research. This user has avoided detection because of their infrequent use of wikipedia - they have made aprox 150 of these edits since August 2006. They were warned for breaches of NPOV with a level 4 template in april 07 [17] and I warned them again last night (Auguest 4th 2007). I put a post at WP:AN when they made edits back in July but it got no attention [18]. A full report page is here detailing the history and extent of this problem - has anyone any further advice on what to do?-- Cailil talk 15:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it notable enough to have an article? Chime in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Socionomics (2nd nomination). GRBerry 12:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
A recent discussion about a particular article ( here) has raised an interesting question: when does listing of an atrocities committed during a given military operation (by one or both sides) cross the border between being relevant to the article and being unduly weighted, fringe skewing of the subject? The issue is particularly evident when mainstream sources, discussing the given military op, devote at best few % to those issues - but it my experience, on Wikipedia, the proportion is often higher, as certain editors list every grievance, no matter how tiny or how reliable its source, with the effect that an article ends up with close to half of its content devoted to listing such atrocities (in an attempt to show how "morally evil" a given side was). As one can see from this diff, the disputed edit adds several long paras to the article, increasing its size from roughly 4,000 to 5,000 words (20%). It repeats the claims of Soviet and Polish propaganda ("Soviet propaganda claimed that"... "The Poles denied that"...); uses foreign-language newspapers mentioning claims not found in mainstream literature, and dwells in detail on even such common wartime actions as building and brides destruction or (sic!) "cutting telegraph wires", portraying them as purposeful vandalism. It is my belief that such atrocities, committed by both sides, often alleged, and referenced with many dubious sources (diaries, newspapers), should be only shortly and in a neutral way described in the main article about the military op - particularly in this case, when a dedicated article ( Controversies of the Polish-Soviet War) exists and can accept all content cut from the main article. Comments appreciated. PS. There is an AfD proposal to delete Controversies of the Polish-Soviet War and merge it into the main article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Vinay Jha ( talk · contribs) is giving grief to the editors at Talk:Precession (astronomy) again (c.f. #Surya_Siddhanta above). dab (𒁳) 12:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
you are right, Vinay Jha is making good progress. -- dab (𒁳) 10:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
No specific concerns but it looks like it needs attention Nil Einne 00:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Someone might want to take a look at this. It seems to be a fringe theory of questionable notability. It's also a bit spammish, seeing as how it prominently displays links to this one kooky-looking website. None of the other sources cited seem to have anything to do with this. Deranged bulbasaur 10:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Would someone mind looking at the at this edit and advise whether or not it involves pushing of fringe science by the Centre for Disease Control Atlanta (CDC) in their recently published findings (see citations and link), as editor Orangemarlin keeps reverting and stating here on 10th Aug and here on 16th Aug on this pretext and refuses to discuss further despite numerous requests to do so. Jagra 01:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The page on Facilitated communication seems to me to be in a very credulous state. -- Wfaxon 23:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Our regular Vinay Jha ( talk · contribs) is at it again, this time at Indian astronomy, [20]. Could somebody look into it? I am tired of him. dab (𒁳) 11:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
hey, I've found a good edit of his: [21]. That's perfectly commendable: rejoice, VJ made a valid edit! the problem is still that his signal to noise ratio is at about one valid single-line edit per about 80k of cross-posted rambling and complaining on talkpages. Not exactly what we are looking for, but maybe he'll do another good edit next week. dab (𒁳) 19:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I (and several others) have had a very long and bitter correspondence with 2 or 3 people who seem to have hijacked this page to promote their own glorious fantasies of Jat history which seem to be based on some notion that they are "pure Aryan" and are superior to other people. They will stoop at nothing to promote their supremacist points of view including personal abuse and vilification, outright lies, the use of pseudo-scientific "evidence", providing false "quotes" and "references", threats, etc., etc., etc. (Much of this sorry saga can be followed in the Talk pages and their archives if anyone is interested in checking it out) I have gradually managed to get rid of some of the most extreme and ridiculous claims but it seems to be impossible that we will ever get a balanced article on the Jat people unless something is done to curb the excesses of these fanatics. Anything any of you can do to help bring some sanity to this page would be most welcome John Hill 04:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
We have a very determined editor pushing fringe theories about the Ebionites being directly related to the Essenes, John the Baptist, and religious vegetarianism. There is also an element of synthesis, imho, that goes beyond simply citing fringe sources. An RFC has been requested, but we are still waiting for someone to show up. Can you provide some perspective before we have a melt-down? The discussion Historical revisionism: Essenes and Christians, Religious vegetarianism redux, Essenism section is getting a bit over-heated. Ovadyah 21:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Please leave your comments at Requests for comment from Ft/N so they are not lost among the internal edit-warring. Thanks. Ovadyah 19:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Ebionites has been nominated for FAR. The factual accuracy of the Essenism section is disputed. Please help restore the article to feature quality. Ovadyah 00:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
BalanceRestored ( talk · contribs) is going around creating articles on UFOs and the Vedas. So far, Vaimanika Shastra and Shivkar Bapuji Talpade. I have fixed these, but I cannot spend more time babysitting this user: more eyeballs are needed. thanks, dab (𒁳) 11:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I was directed here from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. I am not sure that this is really the right place; the immediate problem is not so much fringe ideas in the main space, but disruption and personal remarks being made in the talk space.
JimJast ( talk · contribs) is a long time editor, with an unusual perspective on physics. Jim claims to be simply following the theories of Einstein, and considers that his ideas have failed to be published because of a collective psychological block in the whole modern physics community, and that modern cosmology is riddled with pseudoscience. He is currently pursuing a PhD in physics at Warsaw University. Other physicists on Wikipedia believe that Jim's work is fatally flawed, and in complete conflict with relativity, Einstein, and all evidence. Jim confidently asserts that no-one has ever found an error in his work; others might say that Jim has never recognized the errors in his work.
Jim is repeatedly disruptive of the physics pages, with attempts to insert his ideas; apparently thinking they need no other citation than his own claims to be applying Einstein, or relativity. The annoyance is low-level, as Jim works alone. He is mostly pretty genial, but completely beyond any attempts at reason, as far as I can see.
The immediate issue for this report is personal remarks and irrelevant distractions in the talk page of Tired light, after one of Jim's edits in the main page was reverted. Jim's contribution was at 08:39, 24 August 2007; I reverted it four minutes later, at 08:43, 24 August 2007.
Jim has been warned of the inappropriateness of his subsequent personal remarks and disruption in the talk page by two, possibly three editors. See the exchange at Talk:Tired light#Are we under attack by theists?; warnings by Fram ( talk · contribs) and Duae Quartunciae ( talk · contribs) (me). Basis of the warning confirmed by RE ( talk · contribs). I have also requested on Jim's talk page that he refrain from the personal speculations about me on the article talk page, and placed a warning that on-going disruption would mean I'd hand the problem over to someone else. That's what I'm doing now. See User_talk:JimJast#On irrelevant personal material in article talk pages + on Einstein's Tired Light. (The "Einstein's Tired light" is a characteristic addition by Jim, claiming that Einstein supports his particular Tired light notion.)
Viewing his contributions to the main namespace shows a long pattern of similar edits, on and off over the last three years, nearly always reverted fairly promptly by the next passing physicist. There has never been a major problem with fringe ideas in the main space; Jim is a loner. It's a long term thing. Jim used to mark almost all his edits "minor"; he seems to have given that up recently. Contributions in the Wikipedia space show the deletion of several articles he has written, and speedy redelete when he recreated. That was several months ago now. Reasoning with Jim is a bit like slamming a revolving door, so I am placing it here. — Duae Quartunciae ( talk · cont) 15:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Despite repeated requests and warnings by different editors, JimJast continues to misuse Talk:Tired light as a page to discuss his ideas and complain about mainstream BigBang defenders and so on. He seems at first glance to have dropped the uncivility and mild personal attacks, but the main disruption continues [22]. Is it getting time for a topic ban or should we be a bit more patient? Fram 08:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation WHINSEC/WHISC/SOA/'school of assasins', etc....
There is an ongoing edit war between wikipedians and original researchers at this article, to put it as neutrally as possible. One of the parties involved has a conflict of interest and has stated an intent to "start a war" (quote) over the article.
The article has a lot of editing traffic and is apparently controversial enough for the US Army to pay people to edit as there have been edits traced to FT Benning. 67.49.8.228 09:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Talk:Pedophilia over how to characterize studies which dispute the mainstream position that there is no link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Fireplace 15:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
right. If Blanchard has been criticised, why cannot people just cite the criticism? Is the Blanchard study really "fringe"? I'm no expert, but I see no evidence of that. All that Blanchard's study says is that a certain fraction of pedophiles prefer boys, and that this fraction is higher than the average percentage of gays in society. That's it. Now this can be abused for anti-gay progaganda, and we don't want that, but it is not, in itself, anti-gay. This also answers Behnam: this is a study on pedophiles, not on homosexuals. MoritzB quoted other studies that say incidence of pedophilia is about twice as high among homosexuals compared to heterosexuals. I don't know if the study is reliable, because the "anti-anti-gay vigilance" on Wikipedia have campaigned to remove the reference rather than citing criticism. Now look, it is still true in any case that "no evidence is available from this data that children are at greater risk to be molested by identifiable homosexuals than by other adults". Why? Because only 10% of child molesters are also homosexuals. From the pov of the victim, your chances are 90% that your molester is a hetero. Since there are only about 5% homosexuals in society at large, that might calculate to a 100% higher incidence of pedophilia among homosexuals. See what you can do with statistics? "no evidence that children are at greater risk to be molested by identifiable homosexuals" and "homosexuals are twice as likely to be child molesters" are both true statements according to these statistics, they are just given different spins. The anti-anti-gay brigade would do well to combat the spin, and not bona fide discussion of academic studies. -- dab (𒁳) 13:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
As discussed on that article's talk page, the Kievan Expedition of 1018 is mentioned in various academic works. It appears that a 1900s Russian encyclopedia and 1999 Russian book make a claim that doesn't seem to be repeated in any other sources (that the Kievan population rose against the Polish garrison). Are those two sources enough to warrant a mention of that in the article? Or would they be too fringe/undue weight to justify such a mention? Please consider crossposting your replies to talk section linked above.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus. This board is for crackpot stuff, not to solve the article's POV problems referenced to academic sources you happen to not like. -- Irpen 18:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm in a protracted dispute with Ludovicapipa over OR and SYN on multiple pages ( Fernando Collor de Mello, Zélia Cardoso de Mello and Plano Collor) over the benefits of an economic plan in Brazil in the early 90s called "Plano Collor". This plan, which attempted to combat hyperinflation, is generally regarded as a failure (easily backed up quantitatively by looking at the inflation rates here--The plan began in 1990, and as the inflation rates show, hyperinflation initially dropped only to come back until the next plan, ( Plano Real), killed inflation on its inception in 1994).
Ludovica has admitted that she is trying to paint a positive picture of Collor's administration ( here- "Meu "goal" é mostrar que o legado dele é altamente positivo. ", "My goal is to show his legacy is highly positive") and that her position is in the minority, if not outright fringe (same link, "centenas de outros links só falam mal dele" - "hundreds of other links only speak ill of him"). If one looks at the articles in question (including Fernando Collor de Mello which is fully-protected), one's quick to notice it's an NPOV/ WP:PEACOCK nightmare.
She has also used sources selectively: quoting Bresser Pereira (former finance minister in the government prior to Collor) saying that Collor's reforms were "brave", when Bresser himself wrote an entire paper saying how the Plano Collor was doomed to failure before it even began ( here).
-- Rocksanddirt 18:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
One example: in Plano Collor, she constantly revert edits which remove the reference to "end of hyperinflation", though the inflation indicators clearly contradict that.
So, the issue at hand is: How to incorporate her POV into the article without turning it into a propaganda piece. The slippery slope is: Should we focus on facts, or incorporate opinion? If the latter is the answer, I'm afraid these articles will turn into an infinite "he-said, she-said", where it'll one be one "According to Professor X, but according to Professor Y" after another. Personally, I'm a big believer in "show, don't tell", so I'd rather scrub the articles down for NPOV and remove all opinion.
(Note: Just for some context on the user in question, Ludovicapipa has already been blocked for 1 year in the Portuguese Wikipedia under the username "Filomeninha" for personal attacks. She has tried to add the same content to the EN wikipedia as she did there. And she has already engaged in a prolonged OR/SYN dispute with me on 1964 Brazilian coup d'état which she withdrew from. I don't know at which point this becomes an administrative issue, but I'm still trying to deal with it editorially (?).)-- Dali-Llama 17:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Ludovicapipa yes? 18:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This thread is more an ordinary content dispute or NPOV issue than a fringe theory as such. As such it belongs on the article talk pages or maybe WP:ANI. Raymond Arritt 15:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The sourced information keeps getting way out of hand. Take the first footnote which appears to be used through the entire article. I think there are to many assumptions happening here which aren't elaborated within any article. Apparently the fuel cell is now a machine of perpetual motion? Could someone please help find a proper source for this? I've read through the patents and they appear to contradict most of the information which is not properly sourced throughout this article. -- FR Soliloquy 06:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I still fail to see the relevant source that says this is a perpetual motion machine? Can you or someone perhaps point me to a relevant or notable source? Otherwise, I will have to assume that it's some sort of quak theory someone is adding! Thank you? -- FR Soliloquy 08:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The current page on ESP states that: "The scientific field which investigates psi phenomena such as ESP is called parapsychology". Is that true? Is parapsychology a scientific field? The creator not only insists it is, but that some kind of arbitartion has happened and it was decided he was right. The article further insists that ESP hasn't been measured by science. But if parapsychology is a science, hasn't it measured it? Further the page says The term implies sources of information currently unexplained by science. Doesn't this imply that ESP exists and that it has not yet been discovered by science? Isn't that chrystal ball gazing? The page is very unbalanced - but the guy who seems to be in charge doesn't quite see the world in the same way as most. How do you avoid edit wars without leaving completely unsubstantiated claims on an information site? I see there have been many attempts to discuss creating a more balanced article in the discussion archives of this topic. But the most stubburn win in the end it seems. You only have to look at the quality of the page to see that. Anyone who read it would have to go away thinking that ESP has been scientifically proven. How do we deal with such stubbornness?
For example, this sort of stuff, in response to a request for evidence: "There is no controversy that there is evidence: the skeptics don't dispute that studies come out positive. It is whether the positive results really indicate psi that is in question. To say that there is evidence is not to say that there is proof. But no one questions whether evidence exists, only whether it is proof of psi. For example, note that skeptics often complain that the evidence is anecdotal. Well, if there weren't any evidence, they wouldn't be able to say this." I mean where do you start? And it's all like this. None of this or anything else that is argued is supported by any evidence. I'm not a scientist but it seems to me that you can't just make things up. And greet every reasonable objection or request for evidence as proof of you being shut down. They call sciencists small-minded for not accepting their theories, yet they call themselves scientists. I mean, what do the scientists out there say? Is parapsychology a science? How do we stop these zealots taking up so much time and space? I have read in the discussions many heroic efforts by editors dealing patiently and kindly with these people. But, one look at ESP - and you can see who's winning. Debbyo 10:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Can interested editors please take a look at this article, and specifically to the issue raised here and comment ? Abecedare 22:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Not sure whether this is an issue for this noticeboard or for WP:RSN. As the article about Slavic mythology makes clear, our limited knowledge of the subject is based on a handful of extracts from disparate medieval sources. This reality is out of sync with the nature of Slavic nationalism, which mandates the existence of an elaborate pantheon with a number of gods and goddesses on the par with Greek and Roman mythology. As a result, some deities (such as Lel or Lada) are added and removed from the fictitious pantheon as time wears on.
One such example is Berehynia, a Slavic water sprite whose existence was ignored in academia several decades ago. You may find the background in the appropriate section of Slavic fairies, which is based on Boris Rybakov's highly authoritative monograph on Slavic mythology. The Slavic neo-pagans have recently magnified this barely attested sprite into a great goddess, described in the Ukrainian Wikipedia as "Mother of All Life", "Goddess of Nature and Kindness", etc. (мати всього живого, первісне божество-захисник людини, богиня родючості, природи та добра). This interpretation has been recently reinforced by the erection of a Berehynia statue on the Independance Square in Kiev. This statue represents an idealized girl (in fact, the sculptor's daughter) symbolizing Ukraine and is a reference point for modern Ukrainian nationalism.
Perhaps not suprisingly, an editor from Ukrainian Wikipedia started to insert in the lead of the article claims that Berehynia was a "pagan goddess" rather than an obscure spirit. [24] When asked to substantiate this newly popular claim, he linked our page to a farrago of Ukrainian/Russian websites disconnected from anything resembling academia (one of them is actually based on the notion of Aratta as the urheimat of Ukrainians). When I attempted to remove this utterly confused fringecruft, he proceeded to revert warring and started to involve other Ukrainian editors into the conflict. [25] [26] [27] [28] I request the community to investigate the claims of neo-pagans and nationalists and protect the page from editing, if need be. -- Ghirla -трёп- 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
No one claimed either of encyclopedias as sources! Where is this claim coming from is beyond me. Here is the citation from the English language source of Valparaiso University, Indiana: "It also examines how a cult figure, known variously as the great goddess, domestic madonna, hearth mother and today as the nation's mother, and widely portrayed in the media as such, can be transformed into an instrument of women's subjugation." Let's not be hasty and make superficial conclusions. -- Hillock65 20:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
It is undisputed that Berehynia passes as "great goddess" etc. in Ukrainian nationalism today. This is a product of Romanticism. The point is that this isn't based on any older (medieval) tradition, and that the older references to Berehynias make them Vila-like fairy creatures. Then the national romanticists came along and turned Berehynia (now singular) into a "goddess". This is just a matter of getting chronology right, nobody wants to prevent Slavic neopagans from considering Berehynia a "Slavic goddess". The entire point is that we need to make clear that this is a modern invention. -- dab (𒁳) 08:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Lozko may well be a scientist, but since this is not a scientific topic, we are citing her in her capacity as neopagan leader, not as a chemist or geologist or whatever her field may be. Lozko happens to be the chairman of the main neopagan organization of the Ukraine, Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL [31] You are perfectly aware of this, since, I take it, you read Ukrainian, and you presented Lozko's article as evidence. That's like presenting a papal bull and then acting outraged as people classify it as from the Roman Catholic viewpoint. Now please stop wasting my time with this. dab (𒁳) 15:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
My Ukrainian isn't too hot, to put it mildly, but from reading the Lozko page linked to at the bottom of the article, there isn't a lot about Berehynia in the primary sources from the Middle Ages and the name mostly appears there in the plural (Ім'я Берегині у формі множини згадується і в писемних християнських джерелах XI—XV ст.). Even Lozko seems to admit there's a difference between what she (or they) originally stood for and what she means today ( відома сьогодні як Богиня народної пам'яті - which, I'm guessing, means something like "seen today as a/the goddess of national memory"). So she's clearly been promoted from minor spirit to major goddess in more recent times, whether due to Romanticism, nationalism, neo-paganism or a combination of all three. -- Folantin 15:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I presume this is a case of romantic "deity reconstruction" along the lines of Eostre. The difference being that for Eostre, we have a big-time 19th century academic forwarding the hypothesis, while for Berehynia, we have a bunch of online essays. I would be ever so glad if we could come up with some actual scholarship, so we could state that thbe Berehynias "have been hypothesized in 19th century scholarship to continue an earlier single mother goddess" or similar. If Lozko cites no such academic precedents of her hypothesis, however, I don't know where we should get them. dab (𒁳) 15:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to have gone through a period of removing all criticism. The current article is completely and totally credulous, with any criticism being played-down or outright dismissed. E.g. phrases like "the feet only can influence but is not always the primary factor in causing an illness". It also had a whole unsourced section that was basically advertising. I removed that, of course. Help? Adam Cuerden talk 09:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Moosh88 ( talk · contribs) is the latest incarnation of fringy nationalist Armenian revisionism on Wikipedia. More eyes are appreciated. -- dab (𒁳) 13:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is actually pretty good, but there's one section that seems to synthesise information to tone down the fringiness of the material.
The paragraph in question reads (as of time of posting:
"Although extensive searches are underway for other environmental causes," links to a report ( [32]) that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the fringe theories being mentioned in the rest of the paragraph, and the second half of that sentence, "evidence for them is anecdotal and has not been confirmed by reliable studies" refers to completely different things. However, there is extreme resistance to accuracy in this section, for some reason, with all attempted changes being reverted to keep that study in that context, connected to things it does not mention. This is misrepresentation of the evidence.
There are other problems with this - It's not just that there's "anecdotal evidence that hasn't been confirmed". Let's go through these.
Copied to
Talk:Autism
Adam Cuerden
talk 13:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Dealt with. Editors there are cautious, but sensible. I just get worried when we're the third item on google. Adam Cuerden talk 21:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
just discovered this little gem, has been with us since July 2006... dab (𒁳) 06:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
If Vinay (or anyone else) wants to have a go at this article, they're perfectly welcome. I'll email off copies of the deleted content upon request, but I doubt anyone will find anything useful, and certainly nothing in the way of sources they could use (there were none). No: if someone is going to recreate this, it will need to be a completely fresh start IMO. Cheers, Moreschi Talk 20:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
This article is all of two sentences Hemodrosis, also called hematidrosis, is an extremely rare medical condition that causes one to bleed through the pores. This is believed to be what Jesus suffered from in the garden because He knew of his upcoming crucifixion.[citation needed] I found it going through unreferenced articles and do not know what to do with it. The google links I looked at all mentioned the crucifixion and I did not see any purely medical references. -- BirgitteSB 19:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
a long term Sorgenkind, Race and Ancient Egypt ( since September 2005), now in two incarnations, Population history of Ancient Egypt and Race and ancient Egypt (controversies) (properly Afrocentrist Egyptology, currently protected). Pure FRINGE (even the question of the "blackness" of Egyptians is flawed), but aggressively pushed by a number of editors for months on end, and nobody can really be bothered enough to set the record straight. Any takers? See also Afrocentrism#Afrocentrism_and_academiaAfrocentrism#Afrocentrism_and_academia. This is, of course, an exclusively African-American topic (viz., US-centric). dab (𒁳) 13:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I honestly believe that Dab is spreading his/her own propaganda which is apparent in his redirecting of the page title (from Race and ancient Egypt (controversies), to Afrocentrist Egyptology)and participation in a former page for POV-fork Population history of Ancient Egypt. It is a widely known fact that Egyptology far and wide doesn't cover aspects of "race" and for that to even be addressed in a biological context, one must refer to anthropologists in order to assess its validity and how it may have pertained to the ancient Egyptians. Secondly, on the talk page in question I don't recall too many people subscribing to the idea of "race' and "black" as an expression of this race, which was reflected in the ancient population in question. But I do recall studies cited therein supporting the biological Africanity and relatedness to other Africans. Definitely by mostly all definitions, "white people" are not related to Africans so indeed, that seems much more of a fringe concern imo. However, "race" within its self may be described in such a way, but I'd have doubts about that as well. In any event, the inclusion is fruitless and pov-driven I suspect based partly on what I laid out above, which is why there is a lot of overstating in the presentation. Taharqa 22:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a completely unsourced alternative medical article claiming to be 93% effective.-- BirgitteSB 21:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate the assistance of some other editors, to battle what I regard as some fringe theories and original research being promoted by PHG ( talk · contribs). Unfortunately this is a fairly obscure topic about the time period of 1250-1310 or so during the Crusades. Part of the problem is that because it's so obscure, there are really only two editors that understand the subject matter enough (and have the time and interest) to be editing the article, myself and PHG. Others who may understand it, may pop in briefly and participate at the talkpage, but aren't really editing the article. So PHG and I are basically at an impasse. :/ To describe the situation in a nutshell:
I have tried an RfC [35]. But again, because it's such an obscure topic, it's difficult to get many other editors commenting. I have also suggested Mediation, but PHG has declined, [36] saying he doesn't want to spend his time arguing. We've managed to narrow down a couple issues to specific points where a couple other editors have agreed with a course of action, but then PHG argues that "3 against 1" (him being the one) still isn't a consensus, and so he continues to edit war (see: Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance#Introduction sentence)
A 3RR block isn't an option, because he and I are the only ones really editing (so in order for him to violate 3RR, I'd have to violate 3RR, and I don't want to do that). Also, looking at his contribs: PHG ( talk · contribs), this is the only thing he's doing, is camping on this article, for weeks now. In fact, I often have to wait until he's asleep if I want to edit the article, otherwise he's reverting me within minutes. :/ Please, I need help here, and any assistance would be appreciated. -- El on ka 21:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Pretty awful article - it's basically a long series of quotes with the mainstream position distorted and all mainstream evidence absent. I've put it up for AfD, but you know AfD: "Oh, we MUST! keep it! Google scholar found a couple non-notable books that mention the fellow in passing!" Adam Cuerden talk 16:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
the Armenian patriot trolls are at it again, have a look at 75.51.160.183 ( talk · contribs), Martiros Kavoukjian, Mitanni, Moosh88 ( talk · contribs). -- dab (𒁳) 06:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Benjamin P. Holder is asserting that NCDHR is an intisemittic and anti-hindu organisation that denies the holocost. The organisation has just received the Rafto Prize for it's human rights work. There is no mention of any of mr Holder's accusations in any mainstream media covering the organisation or award. Inge 10:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
this isn't a "fringe theory" it is the usual bickering and smearing in Indian "communalism". You call us fascists, so we'll call you fascists back. Facts have nothing to do with this at all. dab (𒁳) 09:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The "Alternative Hypothesis" section (which alleges one big government cover-up) of AZF is completely unsourced, and frankly reads like one big WP:POVPUSH. This isn't an article I've been involved in editing, just one I stumbled upon, so I'm giving you guys the heads-up. shoy 14:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Radionics ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) needs serious work, it contains several sentences which parse as nonsense, some very poor sources and a lot of uncritical text. Radionics was founded by "the dean of gadget quacks" (according to the American Medical Association) and appears to lack any credible basis in fact. Cruftbane 18:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
It'd be worth adding this to your watchlists: An editor came along and turned it into a pure nonsense article where she just made up stuff about quantum mechanics supporting alternate medicine woo. I deleted the page as nonsense, but it was pointed out that a perfectly good page hid there before the nonsense, so I restored the edits pre-nonsense. (Restoring th eones after nonsense by a known tag-team edit warrior seemed to be asking for trouble). Adam Cuerden talk 16:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Lots of problems with POV-pushing in recent edits, and it looks like more are coming. Adam Cuerden talk 06:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is another strange little article I am not sure what to do with.-- BirgitteSB 18:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Promotes drinking of urine and also for topical application. I wouldn't be surprised if the text in question does say these things. But this is at the least undue weight towards a fringe view already expounded at Urine therapy.-- BirgitteSB 17:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
...Awful, awful, awful articles. Adam Cuerden talk 18:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This seems pretty fringe to me. Now sources-- BirgitteSB 18:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
this is material I exiled from Amazons a while ago, slapping it with {{ unreferenced}}. It has just been sitting there since then. If anybody can be bothered, it could do with some straightening, pruning and de-fringification. -- dab (𒁳) 09:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
without comment -- see for yourselves. -- dab (𒁳) 11:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I am creating a Category:Origin hypotheses of ethnic groups so at least there is a way to keep track of these articles. dab (𒁳) 13:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much a POV-fork of the main homeopathy article; at best, a remnant of the recent homeopathy rewrite and consolidation that didn't get redirected, at worst, garbage.
I've put it up for AFD. Adam Cuerden talk 04:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Interested folks may care to comment at the deletion proposal for Category:Pseudoscience writers, currently in progress here. -- cjllw ʘ TALK 03:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
In my understanding, "proto-science" refers to historical science, prior to the Age of Enlightenment, such as Hellenistic astrology, Alchemy, and perhaps Aristotle, etc. On Wikipedia, the term seems to have morphed into an euphemism for pseudoscience, a field of study that appears to conform to the initial phase of the scientific method, with information gathering and formulation of a hypothesis, but involves speculation that is either not yet experimentally falsifiable or not yet verified or accepted So, we are presented with "proto-sciences" like ( List of protosciences, Category:Protoscience, what links here)
together with perfectly mainstream notions like Abiogenesis, Grand unification theory or M-theory and perfectly established fields like psychoanalysis or oneirology. dab (𒁳) 08:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
my beef is not so much with the Kuhn definition, but with the fact that it offers itself as a free-for-all: every pseudoscience will claim that it is "emerging" and will "eventually" gain the status of "real science". Anything labelled as "protoscience" will have to state clearly who so labelled it and in what context. Electromagnetic theories of consciousness is obviously pseudoscience, pure and simple, but apparently proponents have thought of forestalling the identification as such by claiming it as "protoscience". I suppose it will be enough to just remove all unsourced "protoscience" claims. Category:Protoscience should probably go as well. -- dab (𒁳) 09:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I have put the category on cfd. dab (𒁳) 16:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
To quote a bit:
And the whole talk page is starting to devolve into this OR and speculation, with demands that the page be changed to fit their views. Please help! Adam Cuerden talk 08:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion on the Talk:Ebionites page regarding the nature of the relationship of this generally little-known group with other groups in the area during the time of its existence. In fact, the discussion seems so hard to resolve that it was recently referred for mediation, which was rejected when one party refused to accept mediation. Personally, I don't know enough about the subject to say conclusively that one of the proposals being made there qualifies as a fringe theory, although based on what I do know that seems a very real possibility. If anyone here knows anything about this subject (which probably means you know more than at least I do about it), I would welcome any assistance in verifying one way or another exactly how widely accepted certain current theories regarding this group are. Thank you. John Carter 16:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
What an awful lot of pseudo-scientific nonsense. Was nominated for AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human chemistry, but was closed after a day or so as a non-admin closure; the closer invoked WP:SNOW although only 4 editors expressed opinions... 131.111.8.104 02:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Eyes needed, possibly a deletion candidate. this is a recent creation, motivated by the Ramsethu hubbub in progress in Indian politics at the moment. The alleged "hypothesis" is forwarded by Saroj Bala, Chief Commissioner of Income Tax in Amritsar, Punjab. No scholar would consider taking this (viz., extrapolating information on a Stone Age biography from a 300 BC narrative) seriously for five seconds. dab (𒁳) 14:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
ok, googling around I find some 500 pages on "historical Ram(a)" (compare "flood geology" with 50,000 hits). It transpires that S.R. Rao (an archaeologist known to be carried away with antiquity frenzy and fantastical claims) has voiced his opinion on the matter. [38] google books gives some 60 hits. It appears that a better case for discussion of the topic could be made than the "two goverment employees" one. If somebody wants to write this article, do go ahead. -- dab (𒁳) 16:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Arsenicum album ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) needs some work, I think. It is essentially an uncritical restatement of the homeopaths' version. Cruftbane 16:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Strong attempts to restore the deleted revision of Quantum biology, with all its "Quantum mechanics supports Alternate medicine" charm. Homeopathy has also been attacked by the nutters at WP:TIMETRACE, which sounds like a reasonable project, until you see what the members actually do. Adam Cuerden talk 16:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Article Chinmoy is subject to information suppression, and reads like a press release or advertisement for the now deceased figure and his organization, and associated fringe theories, not an encylopedia article. Attempts by various, more skeptical or neutral editors to put a POV tag to warn readers that there is an NPOV controversy, or that the article reads like an advertisement, and any critical, controversial or skeptical information, for example, questions about whether claimed but improbable record weight lifts were accurately reported [39], or even factual information about controversies, such as [40], are systematically removed by User Fencingchamp. [41] User Fencingchamp also seems to distort the relative weights of the body of scholarly research and opinion regarding the validity of critical testimony of disillusioned followers and critics as proving such testimony is vilification, [42], when there is no such consensus on the issue [43] and no justification for totally eliminating the controversy section.-- Dseer 03:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
In addition, I found this what appears to be the prefered version of the article? -- Rocksanddirt 17:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Article (together with associated walled garden, apparently) presenting wild speculations of some Christian fundamentalist hobby "archaeologists" about alleged archaeological remains of Noah's Arc as if they were serious scholarship. Not sure if I'll have the stamina to clean this up myself, need help. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Greek journalist pushing his own theory of the Insensé on Wikipedia. Also at Albert Camus (apparently when Camus used the word insensé he wasn't referring to the existentialist Theory of the Absurd but to his own synaesthesia. You learn something new every day). -- Folantin 20:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Auno3 ( talk · contribs) (who signs as Gold Nitrate) has been trying to push material on miscegenation and dysgenics into a number of articles, including Human [44], Human evolution [45], Societal collapse [46] and Risks to civilization, humans and planet Earth [47]. Not to mention racist POV edits to dysgenics, black people and others. Some more eyes on these articles and edits would be appreciated, as would any suggestions on how the articles on dysgenics, societal collapse etc, can be cleaned up. – ornis ⚙ 01:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The articles involved are important articles, and this user has repeatedly indicated by her/his editing actions that s/he is not interested in complying with even the most basic Wikipedia policies. There are more important things to do than constantly monitor these articles for the kind of nonsense this user is injecting. Please resolve the issue with an indef block until such time as this user sees her/his way clear to participating in a constructive way, at which time the user may ask for reinstatement and attempt to demonstrate a willingness to contribute in accordance with the editorial and behavioral policies. ... Kenosis 04:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I hate to be one helps who puts who helps put the kibosh on presenting important material that may change our entire way of thinking, but I'm reasonably sure there are some policies around here relevant to
this new article. See also
this afd, and for those who can view the deleted contributions of User:Ny2292000 probably a whole lot more. A speedy deletion of the article and images would be fine, as would a block of the
WP:SPA, but I thought I'd mention it here as it's likely to come up again sometime in the future.
Tim Shuba 17:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a law, stating that it is unlikely a given author has landed a major breakthrough in theoretical physics if he is beaten by the complexities of Wikipedia procedures as he is trying to write an article on his discoveries. -- dab (𒁳) 08:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Could people watching this noticeboard please comment at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Sadi Carnot? Thanks. Carcharoth 19:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
This [48] and related articles are another example where article ownership and POV editing is obvious and criticism is lacking. The articles assert fringe theories like TM-Sidhi program, including yogic flying, Maharishi Effect, Maharishi Vedic Science, Invincible Defense [49], as well as controversial medical claims, with undue weight. -- Dseer 06:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The family of pages at Category:Integral theory, Category:Integral thought, Category:Ken Wilber, and Category:Sri Aurobindo go into great technical detail about the beliefs and biographies surrounding fringe New Age-y theories with little or no coverage in mainstream, independent sources. (For example: " Zimmerman is the only scholar to take space alien phenomenology seriously.") I've recently prodded a bunch of them, but I expect those to be contested by the authors. Fireplace 18:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I've also created Collected Works of Sri Aurobindo as a useful merge target. I think our problem articles are those in Category:Integral thought and Category:Integral theory, because these categories are WP:SYN in themselves. Category:Sri Aurobindo is not a problem, since its articles are clearly attributed to a specific esoteric school. dab (𒁳) 09:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
A coatrack for Tesla-POV pushing. ScienceApologist 20:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature: Tesla's Science of Energy (2nd nomination). Please comment. ScienceApologist 23:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
A fringe theory regarding the earliest mention of the name Armenia and Armenian people in history is currently circulated in Wikipedia by some Armenian editors. Recently the main article of Armenia itself has unfortunately been a target. Basically the majority of modern scholars assert the view that the earliest mention of the name Armenia/Armenians was in the 6th century BC aproximately around the same time by Greeks and Persians. Hecataeus of Miletus and the Behistun Inscriptions of Darius I. Scholars who say that these are unequivocally the first known instances the name Armenia has been mentioned include Dennis R. Papazian (Professor of History, The University of Michigan) [50], Mark Chahin (author of the peer reviewed Kingdom of Armenia [51]), James B Minahan (Miniature Empires: A Historical Dictionary of the Newly Independent States [52]), Elizabeth Redgate (The Armenians [53]), Richard G. Hovannisian, PROFESSOR EMERITUS Ph.D., UCLA, 1966 Armenian Educational Foundation Professor of Modern Armenian History ( [54]) etc. Despite this the following line has been added to the main Armenia article: "Another view marks Sumerian inscriptions of Naram-Suen dating to 2260 BC as "the earliest mention of the name in a form recognizable as Armenian". It is supported by a ciation from Thomas J Samuelian (a linguist who has nothing to do with history) who is referring to Artak Movsisyan as his source, a historian from Armenia with no published work outside of Armenia with incredibly far fetched theories. This attempt basically pushes back the first mention of Armenia 17 centuries back from what most scholars agree with. -- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
this isn't a concent dispute, it's just an administrative task of keeping the angy young patriots in check. Last year, it was the Hindutvavadis, now it's the Armenian national mysticists, they'll grow tired just like all their predecessors. -- dab (𒁳) 16:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Samuelain is a respected scolar, "Mr Samuelian is the author of a number of books, articles, reviews, and translations in the field of Armenian language, literature, and history, including a recent English translation of St. Gregory of Narek’s Book of Prayers: Speaking with God from the Depths of the Heart (www.stgregoryofnarek.am), a two-volume Course in Modern Western Armenian, Dictionary of Armenian in Transliteration. He has taught at the University of Pennsylvania, Columbia University, and St. Nersess Seminary. Mr. Samuelian holds his J.D. from Harvard and his Ph.D. in linguistics from the University of Pennsylvania" [55]. His Armenological researches and works used by [56] (a research for ICHD), [57] (Gomidas Institute journal), [58], [59], [60] (Oxford journal), [61], [62]. Samuelian wrote: "Others cite Sumerian inscriptions of Naram-Suen dating to 2260 BC as the earliest mention of the name in a form recognizable as Armenian. These inscriptions refer to Sumerian battles with the Armani [21]". The ref. #21 didn't mark Artak Movsisyan (Im not sure but as I know Artak Movsisyan's books are related to Aratta, not Naram Suen: surely this Naram Suen version existed before him, pls read the source its online, to not falsify what sources are used), it marks an Armenian academian (Ishkhanian, On the Origin..., 1989, p. 46, and Bnik hayeren barer, 1989, p. 56) and a foreign scolar (B. Hrozny, Naram-Sim et ses ennemis: un Texte Hittite, 56-75). Dr. Anzhela Teryan also marks: "*"The king of Akkad Naram-Sin used the Armani state name for the state in Armenian highland (2500s BC)". (in Armenian) Anzhela Teryan (PhD on historiography, senior researcher of State Museum of Yerevan), "The cult of Ar god in Armenia", Yerevan, Aghvank, 1995, p. 29." Have you any quotations from the scolars marked by you? If yes, and if they are really a majority, why to not just call this other view "a minority view" and stop to call them "idiotic" etc. have you any reviews criticizing them? if no, whats the problem? Andranikpasha 21:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I know, see antiquity frenzy, Armenian nationalism. You have no idea of the crap I regularly clean out from places like Hurrian language or Subartu. Not just Armenian, also Kurdish and Syriac -- it appears that everybody from the region who doesn't identify as Arab or Turkish has abandoned all reason in touting their antiquity. Unnecessarily, since it is undisputed that Turks and Arabs are intrusive to the area, but there is still a slight difference between 1000 BC and 2000 BC (about a thousand years, I'd say). -- dab (𒁳) 10:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Please comment here: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Reddi/Dynamic Theory of Gravity. Thanks ScienceApologist 23:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
My sixth (seventh?) sense detects a certain odor sorry I mean aura emanating from this, which is already being flatteringly summarized elsewhere. Perhaps it's merely promotion, so common in Wikipedia. Anyway, I fear that although I'd be able to Google, etc., this week; I shan't have time to take a major role in arguing with the contributor. -- Hoary 00:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
prod was removed. this belongs on afd as an OR essay. -- dab (𒁳) 11:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
sources are cited, but what are the sources for the method itself? it's as if the author developed the method as he goes along (WP:SYN). dab (𒁳) 19:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello all,
There's something of a low-key edit-war going on at Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus regarding the inclusion (or not) of a theory by Joseph Schechtman, a "historian" who has been discredited for grossly misquoting sources by the Author Erskine Childers (UN) (much in the same way Joan Peters who, interestingly enough, quotes Schechtman excessively, was unmasked by Norman Finkelstein). This was later acknowledged by the historian Stephen Glazer (Glazer, Steven. (Summer 1980) The Palestinian Exodus in 1948. Published by Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 9, No. 4.) and not refuted since.
The "theory" presented is called the Fear Psychosis Theory, which implies that Palestinians were so obsessed with there own atrocities towards Jews, that they developed a Psychosis (yep, you read that correctly, a mental disorder) that the same cruelty would be bestowed upon them in retaliation. The text used in the article is
“ | Schechtman, argues in his book The Arab Refugee Problem that a large part of the exodus was caused by a phenomenon which he calls The Fear Psychosis, namely Arab fear of attack,
reprisal and the other stresses of war. Schechtman himself attributes this to purely to the perspective of the refugees. He expounds this theory as follows:
|
” |
This, in my opinion, qualifies as a fringe theory and should be removed. The most pertinent arguments are:
Schechtman's defenders in this article point out that while no other authors support his theory, he is nevertheless quoted. This is true, but in most cases he is quoted for other things (Morris, for instance, quotes him only for his analogies to the Muslim-Hindu transfer in 1947-8), to rip him to pieces (e.g. Glazer, Childers or Finkelstein).
This dispute regarding Schechtman has been going on for a while and seems to be headed towards a WP:RFAR. It would be nice to get some "professional" opinions here before it lands there.
Cheers and thanks, pedro gonnet - talk - 26.10.2007 06:18
P.S. You can follow the talk-page discussion here.
It doesn't get any more fringy than that. No notability apparent, at all. dab (𒁳) 10:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I've stumbled on this with suspicion in the past, and now, in the light of this review, it is clear that this article falls within the scope of this noticeboard. Extensive reviewing and rewriting needed. dab (𒁳) 15:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
it's difficult to judge. Apparently important discoveries were made, but the excavators in their enthusiasm of having found an "ancient civilization" in the middle of the "Iranian homeland" went completely cranky for joy and began presenting fantastic dates and far-out claims. I imagine this topic is tied up in Iranian national mysticism, and we'll have to be aware of this when evaluating sources. dab (𒁳) 12:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
An image, Image:Evp1.png, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Thank you. ScienceApologist 01:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC) ScienceApologist 01:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
In the Thought Field Therapy article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Field_Therapy , someone who goes by the name of Boodlesthecat added a reference of a Letter to the Editor I wrote stating an opinion supportive of TFT when it was obvious that this was an outdated reference and that I have publicly retracted my views on TFT. I tried to point this out to Boodlesthecat and delete this, but Boodlesthecat reverted it and accused me of "suppressing" information. I then actually wrote to the journal being referenced (Traumatology) and wrote a retraction for the particular letter that was cited and then put that into the article. In the Traumatology retraction I stated that Boodlesthecat putting this in, in the first place was misleading and really tangential to the topic of hand, which was to cite published articles on TFT, not bring in letters to the editor. No reputable encyclopedia would put in letters to the editor where enthusiastic supporters were merely stating opinions (as was the case with the retracted letter I had previously written). Please note that in addition to the Traumatology retraction I just put in after this incident, there was also an earlier article I had published in 2005 where I explicitly stated agreement with the review by Hooke in question so there really was no good reason for Boodlesthecat to be citing this outdated reference that misrepresents my present views. I would like to have this removed. Another point in terms of the quality of the article, is that an enthusiastic opinion from a TFT devotee (which I was at the time I wrote that retracted letter) is tangential and having to then put in the fact I retracted the letter really makes the article appear very poorly written. If people really wanted to add "balance" they could have cited and quoted from Roger Callahan's response article to the review in question, rather than a letter to the editor from an enthusiastic TFT devotee merely stating an opinion that was late retracted. I will be writing about this incident in an article I have been invited to write for an APA publication, by the way. -- MonicaPignotti 14:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC) copied from Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard-- BirgitteSB 19:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
... has been unprotected. Sane input and more eyes please. The effort invested in muddying this issue is staggering. -- dab (𒁳) 14:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
That article is one of the worse things about Wikipedia. An example of Wikialty ? Black and wooly haired Cholchians ! Wow.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 03:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman: what is so difficult to understand here? If it's Egyptology, cite Egyptological WP:RS. If it's archaeogenetics, cite genetics WP:RS. "Some afrocentrists" do not qualify as either, and their opinion is not of academic interest. There are academics discussing this afrocentrism thing, but these are sociologists, not Egyptologists. This is eerily parallel to Out of India: ideologists with no academic background call "discrimination by white imperialist academia", playing the race card until Egyptologists do feel compelled to explain why they are ignoring their "contributions" (because they have no merit). Look, if this was about editors insisting on organizing the Germanic peoples article along the pros and cons of Nordicism, I don't think we would be having this debate. If you can discuss the "Race of Ancient Egyptians" by referring to peer-reviewed Egyptological literature, please do that, but sprinkling the article with afrocentrist ideology and its debunking is precisely what we do not want, and what WP:FRINGE is built to prevent. -- dab (𒁳) 07:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman, dude, did you read anything I wrote? Yes, Afrocentrists can be notable as primary sources, on the topic of Afrocentrism, but not Ancient Egypt. This is what I have been preaching all along. Now please go and take a good long look at WP:UNDUE. (some help, anyone?) -- dab (𒁳) 13:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
ScienceApologist, this is what I am talking about. The article has no business to be in some undefined limbo "outside the bounds of mainstream Egyptology and archaeogenetics", not on Wikipedia it doesn't. At present, it is half about serious population history, and half about the most outrageous kookery, and it doesn't distinguish the two. This will not do, cases such as this is why we have this noticeboard, and we will not be done with this article until it is clearly split into one part that is academic, and one that is fringy-but-notable. The present situation is untenable: it is designed to confuse the reader. it is designed to give an academic spin to absolute kookery by conflating valid and invalid terms in the most irresponsible manner. And this is why it needs to be cleaned up and {{ split}}. -- dab (𒁳) 14:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman, there is no such controversy outside afrocentrist propaganda. Feel free to develop a separate Afrocentrist Egyptology article (sheesh, I've been advocating that for weeks). But stop pretending this has anything to do with academia. Bottom line, do one article on Afrocentrist Egyptology, focussing on whatever this is worth, and one about population history of Ancient Egypt, reflecting academic debate on the topic. dab (𒁳) 16:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually quite a few reliable and notable scholars have gotten in on the discussion of the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians and what color their skin was, etc. See the sources in the actual article. Wikidudeman (talk) 00:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
FFS, Wikidudeman, then why doesn't the article discuss the work of "reliable and notable scholars" and goes for this Diop character instead? Can we decide whether this article is even supposed to be on reliable scholarship, soon? and if so, clean out all the cranks? I have no objection of a discussion of AE ethnicity, as long as only academic sources are used. dab (𒁳) 13:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that Green fireballs may need some balance. Bubba73 (talk), 05:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Should ghost lights merge to will o' the wisp? See Talk:ghost light. ScienceApologist 00:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Quackwatch#Request for Comments. Thanks. ScienceApologist 02:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This article is awful. Adam Cuerden talk 23:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Also A Guide for the Perplexed. Adam Cuerden talk 23:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you arch-deletionists can explain your rationale for wishing to delete this article at this particular time. thanks Peter morrell 18:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
When you have answered my question I will explain why antireductionism is different from holism. Given that you do not know the difference speaks for itself: why are you even editing this article? which brings me back to my point - why now? why merge them? what is your motivation? You are certainly both arch-deletionlists; that is not name calling, it is an observation of fact. Peter morrell 19:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
"We did give reasons: NPOV, unclear writing, and possible redundancy with a better article."
You can carry on like this if you wish but until you answer my questions it's a no go. Read what I wrote for example and answer the specific points. Thus far you have not. Peter morrell 20:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for YOUR POV. If this is so then why was it Adam who made the action? however, in relation to the question, AR is really a suspicion on the part of many, esp in the social sciences, but also in portions of biology, that reductionism is too simplistic for adequately describing complex systems and processes and that it innately oversimplifies and thus distorts and misleads. Especially in ecology and weather systems for example. Such folks do not believe that reductionism inherently can generate the answers it promises: it can prove to be non-insightful. Holism by contrast believes that phenomena in general are best perceived as wholes rather than via analysis of parts. I agree these are close to each other but holism is probably the broader concept and I would say they are different precisely because both terms occur in academic discourse...which kind of justifies their separate inclusion here. Also I would say the AR article is much better than the other one which is very poorly ref'd and too generalised to be of much use. It looks like a rag bag mix of all sorts of odd stuff simply thrown together. I guess you will disagree. What attracts you to fringe theories as you like to call them? and why clean them up when embryogenesis and embryology cry out to be merged but I don't see you two banging on about that. BTW I am a zoologist by training so I disagree with your view of my understanding of what science is. If you do merge them then please merge them proper rather than deleting whole swathes of stuff. OK? cheers Peter morrell
What do you mean by actual training? I completed my degree and after a couple of years went into teaching mostly environmental science and ecology plus some bio and biochemistry and a lot of fieldwork and pollution studies type stuff, very enjoyable. More recently an MPhil in history. does that suffice? how is this relevant? I think my doubting view of some aspects of science stems from teaching about nuclear power and ecology which cannot be fully understood via reductionism; you have to look at social issues, politics and economics or at complex organism interactions--the wider picture--to get a grip of them both; apart from which scepticism of science claims is a good thing and in my case that flows from my study of sociology and philosophy for my MPhil which are core aspects for understanding historical processes. The world is not as black and white as science pretends and science is largely profit-driven sadly so you cannot separate the scientific view of life from these background realities of it as an enterprise. It is very largely a belief system little different from a religion. sorry I have rambled on. Peter morrell 21:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Christos Papachristopoulos (AKA ChrysJazz ( talk · contribs) or 77.49.178.72 ( talk · contribs) is at it again, promoting his own philosophy (especially at articles related to Albert Camus). Prime examples: Nuclear Philosophy of Media and Mathemagics. An AfD established that the guy's bio was non-notable, so his philosophy definitely should not be here. Any advice on the quickest way to proceed to put a stop to all this would be greatly appreciated. -- Folantin 10:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Appears to be pseudoscience, much of it devoted to promoting the views of a single editor ( User:Hkhenson, in real life Keith Henson). Has been the subject of much debate in the past, including an aborted attempt at mediation. I would welcome more opinions before taking this to AfD, and possibly recommending action against the editor. Physchim62 (talk) 13:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Keith Henson 03:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Ugh. Is there any source that's not by Keith Henson that uses the term "capture bonding"? I mean a reliable source, not [wisegeek.com]. The sources that are by Keith Henson are published in sources like The Human Nature Review, which appears not to be peer reviewed. This article looks like a bunch of self-promoting pseudoscience to me. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Comments anyone can make on my proposal here would be most appreciated. Cheers, Skinwalker 14:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
In Gibbs paradox, Lin Shukun has been adding massive amounts of material which references his own works. He seems to be applying information theory to thermodynamics. Given that Lin Shukun is self-published by the same publishing house that publishes Libb Thims (a.k.a. User:Sadi Carnot and User:Wavesmikey), and the historic misapplication of information theory to things like evolution, I'm skeptical. Will someone please check this out? Kww 14:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is a constant problem. It describes a theory, or group of theories, that Jesus was not a historical person. This theory has absolutely no respect within modern academia, and is therefore a fringe theory. It had some scholarly impact in the early 20th century and it's currently espoused by several popular authors ("popular" meaning "non-academic" in this context), so it's notable enough for its own article. However, from time to time editors pop up and insist that it's not a fringe theory, despite the quotes in the article illustrating the low regard for the idea within academia. Input from outside parties would be helpful. --Akhilleus ( talk) 15:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
indeed. this is another example of an article that only ever attracts attention from people enthusiastic about the topic. Hence the usual self-balancing effects do not come into play. I have had a hell of a time of even getting the point across that Christ as myth is a perfectly valid topic in itself completely unrelated to the historicity question. It simply isn't very enjoyable to discuss with people on a level where you need to point out that "mythology" isn't the antithesis of "historicity" and that it is perfectly unsurprising that a mythology attaches itself to historical characters ( Charlemagne isn't unhistorical just because there are folk tales about him). Of course the whole edifice of "there is mythology -- hence Jesus cannot be historical" collapses as soon as you get this point across, so people are bound to make a great effort at Not Getting It. Ceterum censeo: the exact same mechanism is at play at Race of Ancient Egyptians and Afrocentrism. It is a disgrace that Wikipedia allows articles like that to state blatant bullshit for months on end just because the conspiracy theorists play dumb and keep playing the race card. Can people please put these articles on their watchlists and make an occasional effort at cutting down the worst bits? dab (𒁳) 11:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
and Category:Spiritual warfare. I have my doubts on the validity of these. Apparently pov-forks of Demonology and Exorcism, but the category strangely also has entries like Michael Harner, a New Age neo-shaman. -- dab (𒁳) 18:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
There are a number of paranormal infoboxes:
An interesting argument was put forth by another user at Talk:Electronic voice phenomenon that these boxes might be serving as a runaround for WP:NPOV because they promote "in universe" definitions and classifications. What makes a place, creature, encounter, person, event, or term "paranormal"?
I'm not sure about this and so I am posting it here for input. Do infoboxes of these sorts serve to prevent verifiable and accurate framing of encyclopedic subjects? Should perhaps these infoboxes be deleted in the interest of preserving WP:NPOV?
ScienceApologist 17:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
In many cases, removing the infobox would actually be EXTREME POV PUSHING. For example, if I were to remove the paranormal terminology infobox from an entry about a disputed gravity phenomona relating to spooks or UFOs (etc) and were to replace it with a physics taxonomy box about gravity, I would be making the EXPLICIT statement that the disputed gravity phenomona was an accepted part of physic, or that it was at least based on physics. Even if I were to replace it with a disputed science taxonomy box (the closest thing that there is to the paranormal terminology box at present) I would still be implying that there was scientific rationale somewhere in the process. Both of which are clearly unacceptable. Even by removing the box altogether I would still be breaching Wikiregs by committing a WP:Point violation because I'd be removing valid information about the noun or phrase in popular culture because I disagreed with the place of the topic (that the noun or phrase was describing) in the natural order. I'd also be in breach of the recent Arbcom which stated that something that exists in belief is valid so long as it is framed correctly, regardless of the topics place in science.
perfectblue 10:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
They are actually stated as being a highly desirable inclusion for FA status. Thus removing these infoboxes would more or less deny any paranormal entry, no matter how well written and NPOV the chance to reach FA status. I personally don't see how defining a noun or phrase would create a "Walled Garden", if users dispute the contents of a box then they can just put up a Fact tag and request citable evidence that the definition is accurate. For example, the word "Ghost" is in the dictionary, therefore it is verifiable as a real and existing noun. Do people claim that it's inclusion in the dictionary is POV pushing, no, then they claim isn't valid here either.
- perfectblue 10:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Where are the contradictions? Real terminology only, no words from the X-files etc, must comply with Wikiregs. Besides, most of this is actually standard practice on Wikipedia has been part of the MOS for quite a while. Please see WP:WTA for further information it tells you to avoid all pejorative language. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Please don't twist things. A "real" term or phenomona is one that complies with WP:V and WP:RS. Real it's the opposite to Fiction or neologism. As was clearly stated underneath. I've changed the wording, your argument is now void. You may delete it if you wish. If you have an issue with the wording in an infobox, then that should be met at the article level. Deleting the template because you disagree with something that a third party has written in it would be a point violation. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Belief is an observable phenomona and a noun such as "Ghost" is a definable term. your argument is void. You may delete it is you wish. Also, the recent Arbcom clearly stated that notably beliefs outside of the mainstream are valid for inclusion. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
ScienceApologist, your sentiment flies in the face of the recent Arbcom which stated clearly that topics which are notable but which are outside of the mainstream remain valid topics. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I am seriously concerned that this discussion is even happening. As the creator of 75% of these info boxes I can clearly and unequivocally state that they were created for the purpose of providing basic definitions of what a term means or how a phenomena is described (even if a phenomona isn't actually real, it's still efinable). If users have a POV issue with their content then this should be dealt with at the article level, not at the template level. All of these templates are fully citable and comply with all WP regs.
I'm afraid that the removal of these boxes would constitute a WP:Point violation and would set a very bad president as it would in essence be saying that no Paranormal entry can ever have an infobox because the presence of an infobox would be POV pushing that the paranormal was real, when in fact all the presence of an infobox does is show that the term is definable on paper.
To answer some of the above questions
No. As per the recent Arbcom ruling, the infoboxes clearly display the word "Paranormal" thus providing full and accurate framing. A user can in no way mistake then for a scientific taxonomy box. What they do is they provide a pure definition explaining exactly what a term actually means and in what context it is being used.
Let me put this into context. The Paranormal terminology box was put in place to explain how a particular word or phrase should be used and in what context it is used, it also explains the origins of the word and its limitations of use. In essence, it is the purest form of encyclopedic content.
Terminology | |
---|---|
Coined by | Robert W. Wescott (1973) |
Definition | The use of scientific methods to evaluate phenomona that fall outside of current understanding, with the aim of finding a rational explanation. [1] |
Signature | The study of phenomena that appear to be at odds with current scientific understanding |
See also | Parapsychology, Charles Fort |
I have changed this, your argument is now void, you may delete it if you wish. I however hold that all paranormal content must include a pure definition. For example while ghosts might be a controversial entities with no scientific verification, the word "ghost" is quite clearly a noun with a defined meaning and definition. The infobox defines the noun, not the entity.
perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Earlier this year an Arbcom actually [Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paranormal#Paranormal_as_an_effective_tag ruled 8-0] that introducing something as being paranormal was effective framing. It also ruled 8-0 that a lot of paranormal terminology has the status of being a cultural artifact used to describe or define something in belief or culture, rather than in science, and thus it's inclusion or use cannot be POV pushing for the scientific existence of said terminology.
The same arbcom also ruled 8-1 that the aim of an entry about the paranormal is to inform the readers about the topic and the debate surrounding it, NOT to produce an entry that reaches a scientifically valid conclusion on the topic. Therefore it is valid to include a definition and a description of the terminology used in the topic or the event which is said to have occurred in the topic. Any disputed over the nature of this description or definition should be dealt with at the article level, not the template level.
In relation to the above, I will pose the question "Have any of these infoboxes been used with fictional terms?" if so then they should be removed. Whether in universe or out of universe, these infoboxes should only be used for verifiable real world terms. For example, if it was made up fo rthe X-files and exists only within the X-files, then it shouldn't use this infobox'
I've recently come across (and added to) {{ autism rights movement}} and {{ autism cure movement}}. They may reflect POV and may be alternate sides of the same coin; I haven't read enough of the articles to sort it all out, but on the surface, they seem to fall into the same territory as this paranormal template discussion. Almost nothing in the autism rights movement template is cited, and many of the articles are unsourced essays or POV, so I'm also wondering about the best use of templates to possibly advance POV. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 20:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)