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I'm not sure this is the right venue and please feel free to move this to another venue if appropriate. A new editor named Islamrevealed ( talk · contribs) (which is a bad sign from the get go) has been edit warring for the inclusion of a conspiracy theory published by WND Books about the Council on American-Islamic Relations on that organization's entry. The text he put in the lead originally read:
I have reverted this editor twice and don't want to continue edit warring. In the current version the editor simply removed the name of the publisher and the description of the book from the inserted text as if that changes the fact that it is a fringe conspiracy theory published by a group with a known anti-Islamic POV. Some attention to this by others would be helpful. PelleSmith ( talk) 18:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
BBC website has a story about a possible link between virus and ME. This will be picked up by many people. There are some people who think ME/CFS can be effectively treated with graded exercise and cognitive behavioural therapy. There are other people who say that CFS is different to ME, and that you can tell the difference because "real" (their words, not mine) ME doesn't respond to CBT or graded exercise. The latter camp seem to say that the illness has no psychological component (and also seem to say that a psychological component means it's not a "real" illness.) It's this group of people who'll seize the reports of a possible link with the virus and they may distort the findings. Here's a linky. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8298529.stm 87.115.68.252 ( talk) 16:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
The issue of the Cyrus cylinder as a supposed charter of human rights has come up yet again on the Human rights article (summary version: Iranian nationalists and political figures claim that the CC is the world's first "human rights charter"; historians reject this viewpoint as tendentious and anachronistic). This has been discussed on the fringe theories noticeboard on two previous occasions. It's being discussed at Talk:Human rights#Cyrus Cylinder, where the usual suspects are demanding that it be included. Some input from outside editors would be appreciated. -- ChrisO ( talk) 00:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Fringe claims that staring at the sun is safe and can replace food and water continue to proliferate at sungazing. Outside input would again be welcome. Skinwalker ( talk) 21:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia's biggest POV-push is up for an RFC again. It only violates half-a-dozen core policies, though, so I'm sure no real changes will happen. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 213 FCs served 20:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The problem I think is that the majority of Wikipedia articles Strongly lean toward the man-made global warming theory and tend to be dismissive toward the idea that there is any controversy on the subject. Even the Global Warming Controversy article has some of this and because it is a controversial subject and has a number of aggressive editors, even legitimate changes that weaken the argument for man-made global warming are left out of the article. The result is frustrated editors and the article in question. Voiceofreason01 ( talk) 22:33, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The usual suspects are up to their tricks, trying to represent this rather dull out-growth of Christian theology as an evil occult conspiracy... Honestly I don't know why they bother. Anyway I have removed the offending WP:SYNTH but more eyes would be useful. Simonm223 ( talk) 19:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Creation Ministries International ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Worst creationist POV problems:
Other problems detailed at Talk:Creation Ministries International#Unsourced POV additions. The POV is so extreme that it even has one of the creationist editors there criticising it. I've reverted, but am now coming up against WP:3RR. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 05:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit worried about the list of signatories section. If nothing else, the academic backgrounds seems an argument from authority. Worse, in many cases, they're wrong: the list is well-known for misrepresenting the academic connections of the people on it, and it looks like at least some of it was copied from there. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 213 FCs served 12:54, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
The List of signatories to "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" was recently merged into A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism without any prior discussion. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 06:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
this is a classic case of attempting to abuse Wikipedia as a platform for ideological/religious propaganda. The entire thing belongs merged into Discovery Institute, as it is a propaganda stunt intended to be "controversially" covered in media beginning to end. It turns out that there is nothing "Scientific" about the document at all, and that it is never discussed, even by people pushing it, in terms of any "scientific" points that it makes, it is all about the list of signatories. Unsurprisingly so, seeing that the actual "petition" doesn't make any kind of point other than expressing skepticism towards "Darwinian theory", without specifying the nature of this skepticism, or any reasoning behind it. It's a propaganda stunt for the consumption of the popular media beginning to end. -- dab (𒁳) 16:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
According to this article's creator, it is " recreation of deleted article made necessary because of new incontrovertible, easily-checkable evidence on the ground in new book by Butler and Knight", presumably Megalithic geometry deleted at DRV. Whatever, it is certainly fringe and could use some attention to make it NPOV and well written. Dougweller ( talk) 14:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
It is beyond me how you can use the internet to "check the facts" on prehistoric metrology. I was under the impression that the internet was developed in the 20th century, significantly after the megalithic age. It is also beyond me how people can waste their time writing books as obviously worthless as this. Well, it's probably more satisfying than just watching TV, but they could spend their time writing good fiction instead of bad science. -- dab (𒁳) 14:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
why should we delete it? It's classic WP:FRINGE material. It's just, we already have an article on this, currently located at pseudoscientific metrology. Just redirect it. -- dab (𒁳) 16:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Menzel, an early UFO skeptic, apparently had his theories rather readily refuted, at least if the criticism section in his biography is any indication. Mangoe ( talk) 23:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
{undent} Tell me about it. And it's way too busy at work today for me to give it the attention it needs... short of just stubbing the page. Simonm223 ( talk) 20:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
There may be a claim that the Emotional Freedom Technique has a scientific basis following a certain study on placebo analgesia. See edits [2], [3]. Would someone care to read the ref and confirm that it is WP:OR to mention it in these cases? Johnuniq ( talk) 07:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This article just came to my attention. Could do with a cleanup and perhaps rebalancing. Thanks, Verbal chat 11:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
It's spam, advertising a 2008 book. We should also check out the merge target. Eknath Easwaran -- comes up with 74 google book hits, almost exclusively as author. Apparently next to no independent coverage, not even in bibliographies. Among the very rare instances of unrelated authors quoting Easwaran is Magic Power Language Symbol (2008), and The Aquarian conspiracy (1980). The only non-incidential coverage I can find is The making of a teacher: conversations with Eknath Easwaran (2006). However, this isn't independent, as it appeared with Nilgiri Press as the rest of Easwaran's books. Notability not established. -- dab (𒁳) 15:42, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Nilgiri Press is run by Easwaran's own "Blue Mountain Center of Meditation". This is essentially self-published literature. Without reviews from notable independent sources this stuff has no place on Wikipedia. here we have some "critical acclaim" (listed without any publication details). Perhaps some of it can be used. "Critics" listed include Henri Nouwen, author of The Inner Voice of Love – Huston Smith, author of The World’s Religions – Wilson Library Bulletin – Yoga Journal – NAPRA ReView – Library Journal – Wisconsin Bookwatch – Spiritual Life – “Book Bag,” Marilis Hornidge, The Courier-Gazette – The Hindu – Holistic Health & Medicine – Cosmos – The San Diego Union – The Book Reader – Book News Previews, Burton Frye.
I tagged the Eknath Easwaran article, but this does not mean that I think it should be deleted. This just means that the current revision lacks sources establishing notability. It should remain tagged (not deleted) until such sources are added. The Passage Meditation article, however, can just be merged into the Easwaran one. -- dab (𒁳) 16:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I think we have this under control. There is some WP:COI, but the editor is being collaborative about it. -- dab (𒁳) 08:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I've just run into a user adding links to a "cart ruts" site which is part of an Electric Universe site [4] - rings a bell and clearly fringe, but I'm off to bed now. See [5] for the articles with the links. Some serious stuff on these ruts is at [6] and [7] and there's an article in Antiquity Magazine but I don't have access. Dougweller ( talk) 22:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Mentioned above. Now in AfD. Itsmejudith ( talk) 15:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
The deletion guidelines, Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators#Rough_consensus, state:
“ | Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any). Arguments that contradict policy, are based on opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted. For instance, if someone finds the entire page to be a copyright violation, a page is always deleted. If an argument for deletion is that the page lacks sources, but an editor adds the missing references, said argument is no longer relevant.
Wikipedia policy requires that articles and information be verifiable, avoid original research and synthesis, respect copyright, and be written from a neutral point of view. These policies are not negotiable, and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. A closing admin must determine whether an article violates these content policies. Where it is very unlikely that an article on the topic can exist without breaching policy, policy must be respected above individual opinions. |
” |
The closing administrator seems unaware of those rules. Shoemaker's Holiday talk 17:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
After nearly 30 monthss of people expressing serious doubt about the validity of the article but not doing anything about it, I have reverted the article back to the February 2007 version.— Kww( talk) 19:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Nothing major, but another rather amusing floating IP pushing the bizarre theory that various Indian languages are connected to Finno-Ugric: this proves, apparently, that the PIE urheimat is to be located in Scandinavia, and that "the Nazis were right after all". See contributions. Moreschi ( talk) 17:04, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Finally a nationalist crank who is not from the Balkans, the Near East or India! My faith in humanity is restored :op -- dab (𒁳) 19:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
The Netherlands have produced at least one Wikipedian with a nationalism of the decidedly cranky kind, but that's a case resolved two years ago, with no sock armies come back to haunt us.
FYI: Finland is nordic. Finland is not Scandinavian. Ditto for Iceland. - Hordaland ( talk) 22:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Just stumbled across the article on Dowsing. I don't have time to go in depth here, but a cursory overview shows that sources are being interpreted in their most positive light possible (or outright misinterpreted) in favor of the scientific accuracy of dowsing. For instance, here the article stated "dowsing may be ineffective at finding unmarked human burials," when in fact the author of the source stated that dowsing was at best ineffective and at worst harmful to proper cemetery mapping. Attention would be appreciated. // Chris (complaints)• (contribs) 15:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
If anyone has any knowledge of this person could they help with the article, which except for a few things is basically based on his website(s). Dougweller ( talk) 22:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
background: I recently blocked Skipsievert ( talk · contribs) indefinitely for continued disruptive POV-pushing. The essential background to Skip's edits appear to have been a technocratic POV. This covers a wide range of articles, some of which look to be covered by WP:FRINGE: see Technocracy Incorporated, Technate, energy accounting, thermoeconomics, Economics and energy, and probably quite a lot more if you have the energy to dig through his contributions. There appear to have been many others now redirected into the Technocracy Incorporated article. This could use some work from someone with more interest and knowledge than I have, in collaboration with WP:ECON, whose members are highly relieved that Skip has left the building. Moreschi ( talk) 14:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Softvision ( talk · contribs) seems to be trying to argue for certain aspects of General Relativity to be incorrect. Could someone take a look as his recent contributions and figure out the best way to explain to him what the problem is with the way he's trying to work with the encyclopedia? Thanks. -- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 14:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
This article, which I just discovered because its main author tried to add related material to one of the articles I watch, is nothing but nonsense. It appears to be based on the ideas of somebody named G.A. Kouzaev, with all the important sources taken from obscure publications. For all the sense this article makes, it could just as well be a hoax, though I doubt that it is. I am inclined to remove all of the incomprehensible sentences, but it doesn't seem like there would be anything left -- I wonder what others think? Looie496 ( talk) 19:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
The theory doesn't seem blatantly illegitimate (just a bit suspicious about "brain"), but the grammar and citation formatting are wretched, and poor English skills can't excuse the bad citing. Give it a while to let the editor do hir own cleanup, then push. A quantum-savvy and Russian-capable mentor might be handy here. — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 04:58, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
the topic is potentially valid. However, it has nothing to do with quantum computing. I understand that it is a hypothetical method of employing certain features of Classical Electrodymamics for computation that never really went anywhere. The--just as hypothetical--extension to quantum computing is discussed at Topological quantum computer. -- dab (𒁳) 14:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Those following their supposed migrations (to Greece, Sri Lanka, Cambodia...), might like to participate in the merge discussion I have started on whether Kamboja-Pala Dynasty of Bengal should be merged with Pala Empire. Itsmejudith ( talk) 18:29, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
An editor is edit-warring to insert the unrebutted YEC 'belief' "that radioactive decay rates are not constant and thus [YECs] challenge the validity of scientifically-accepted radiometric methods" into Young Earth creationism. I have suggested that this requires mainstream scientific context for inclusion, per WP:FRINGE. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Can some more editors add this article to their watchlist, and if interested, help source and de-fringe it ? I have been reverting the more egregious edits from probable sock accounts, but the article can use more help to make it encyclopdic and even establish notability. Abecedare ( talk) 04:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
excellent find! this links to a wealth of WP:FRINGE articles that had so far escaped my radar, Talbot Mundy, Louis Pauwels, Jacques Bergier, Le Matin des magiciens, Fantastic realism (literature), Planète (review), etc. -- dab (𒁳) 15:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I have the sad duty to announce the tragic demise of The Nine Unknown Men: they have gone from this to this; and from links with Ashoka, Jesus, Louis Pasteur, Buddha, Nazis, Theosophists, Popes, Extra-terrestrials etc to 1920's fantasy fiction and 1960's counter-culture. What a sorry letdown. Abecedare ( talk) 17:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Social Credit is a syncretic political/economic theory-of-everything developed by a British engineer in the 1920s, and historically very important in Canada, where it somehow managed to influence both the right- and left-wing parties that are still around today. It's some kind of combination of monetary crankiness, extremist populism, bankers poisoning our water and what have you. Anyway, the Wikipedia article about it is full of glowing exposition of the absurd doctrines, and not much else. EvanHarper ( talk) 22:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Is anyone watching this page? Among other things, it looks like it may be becoming a coatrack and an advert for various perpetual motion enthusiasts. Of particular concern are sentences like this:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts
Somebody should go through and remove the stuff that is only referenced to promotional websites, for example. Also a lot of the criticism is unsourced probably because no one has bothered to comment on the ideas. WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE need to be applied heavily to the article.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 21:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
It appears that perpetual motion is a self-referential topic. It just never stops, does it? *sigh* — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 21:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that Anno Domini 2009 there are people who seriously advertise perpetual motion devices. You found Noah's Ark? Atlantis? The Holy Grail? The Abominable Snowman? Evidence of Neolithic nuclear techonology? Ancient Vedic UFOs? No problem, welcome to Wikipedia, pray write an article about it. But people who come here to tell us they disproved the 2nd Law of TD? That must really be as low as it gets. -- dab (𒁳) 17:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why we are listing all of Mills' publications in Fringe Journals (e.g. Physics Essays)? This would seem to contravene WP:SOAP, WP:COAT, and WP:FRINGE. ScienceApologist ( talk) 23:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Thinking about AfD and wanted a second opinion first. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
The human capacity for obsession with obscure details has led to ... Wikipedia! Frankly, Ludvikus or no Ludvikus, I find this stuff interesting. Paul's cleaned up version is reasonable. If it can be merged somewhere, merge it, otherwise clean it up and let it stick around. -- dab (𒁳) 14:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Ustadbarman ( talk · contribs) at P.N. Oak. And yes, I know we've been here before, but people need to keep their eyes peeled. Cheers, Moreschi ( talk) 08:06, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Pseudo-Hindutva at best, in this case. It is always good for comic relief to see these self-styled defenders of Hinduism fail utterly in Sanskrit, the sacred language of Hinduism. [10] -- dab (𒁳) 16:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
We seem to have kept the deathbed conversion story in check, but now the John Gano conversion story is making another attempt on George Washington and religion. It's not clear exactly where this story comes from, but it was given prominence by a Time story in the 1930s. The version in John Gano admits that it is unlikely to be true; the GW version doesn't. This in particular needs some other sources beyond Franklin Steiner and a rebuttal article which is unreachable at the moment. Mangoe ( talk) 18:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Just ran into this whilst looking at an edit at our Nommo article (someone changed 'failed to confirm' to 'failed to conclusively refute'. Can anyone take a look at the criticism section? Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 09:51, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
The section on 'Arnold Krumm-Heller' also bears scrutiny:
After the Zimmerman Telegram and former British MI-6 agent Crowley's role in the sinking of the Lusitania, who was carrying L. Ron Hubbard's uncle, the United States went to war and Krumm Heller's book Für Freiheit und Recht was published in Germany with the kaiser's blessings[9] but it would not be until 1946, that the novel Rose-Cross containing the secret of Sex Magic would be published in Argentina. Krumm-Heller confessed he would have to use the official language of the Roman Catholic priesthood for the public at large, he knew, were not ready for the new dispensation and so he wrote: "...Inmissio membri virilis in vaginam sine ejaculatio seminis."[10]
I can find no evidence in the cited source of MI6, Crowley, the Lusitania or Hubbard (let alone his uncle). This is also one of the more incoherent conspiracy theories I've come across. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 17:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
It has been suggested that Race and Intelligence constitutes a fringe topic. It is certainly controversial, and some of the science in this area is bad, but is there a consensus for the whole area being fringe? 213.48.162.17 ( talk) 21:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
No, it's not fringe. It's currently discussed in leading scientific journals by respected scholars (for example, see this series from early 2009 in the journal Nature: doi: 10.1038/457786a, doi: 10.1038/457788a, [11]). --06:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I repeat, Race and intelligence in the United States. You cannot call it "ethnicity and intelligence" when the debate is explicitly in terms of "race (US notions of) and intelligence". I have yet to see a study where "race" is not used as "the rough demographic division of US population". You have to distinguish the rather well-defined notion of "race" within the US with the much more fuzzy notion of "race" if you attempt to apply it worldwide.
I do not accept this topic as "pseudoscience" just because of a source embraced by Sizzle_Flambé says "pseudoscience". There is pseudoscience (as in, Civilization One) and there is the PC reflex to stifle any debate on race from the outset by calling pseudoscience. It isn't pseudoscience to do studies on IQ tests and US demographics. It is pseudoscience to try and sell the results you get out of that for anything else than they are. Calling an area of study pseudoscience because you feel uncomfortable about it or about what results it might turn out isn't intellectually honest. It is apparently taboo or unthinkable to find a significant difference, however slender, in the distribution of IQ between racial groups. I do not know if there is such a difference, but I object emphatically to attempts attack such studies on anything other than scholarly grounds. Some people do not like to see images of The Prophet. Others do not like to see debate on differences between racial groups. To both I say WP:NOTCENSORED. If it's notable, Wikipedia will carry it for what it is worth. -- dab (𒁳) 21:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Fruitarianism, a human, all-fruit diet. Currently growing by leaps and bounds. Lots of undue weight and questionable sources are joining the mix. - SummerPhD ( talk) 21:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I have created Talk:Fruitarianism#Request for Comment: Revert to version of September 30?. Looie496 ( talk) 18:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
To address these issues, so 'fringe' (less represented) topics are not to be covered at Wikipedia. Authors who advocated fruitarianism are linked, just like any group of other authors, or scientists, or composers etc. Sources have been provided wherever possible. Regarding reverting the fruitarian article, quotations from authors who wrote about this subject is highly noteable as are the other contribituons. If you feel otherwise, revert the article, and leave the article one-sided. OK, Ehret has not had timeless influence even though his books have been in print for over 90 years and even though other authors have referred to him in their books throughout the decades. The autobiography is by an Anita Bauer, if she existed, however the book does not confirm if she really did exist. Regarding the claims surrounding white blood cells as mucus, these claims are made by Ehret and Thomas Powell in their books, and corroborated by Corwn Samuel West and others. Just because conventional science may not support this is not a reason to avoid chronicling what others have thought in history. There were no '40 edits to fix one comma'. Content takes time to add. All changes, cleanup, notability and citation issues can be discussed at the talk pages. Improvement of content, sources and quotes is important. Perhaps some of you could make contribution, in addition to your deletions. Zanze123 ( talk) 18:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding "These articles are almost exclusively cited to self-published books and websites, and largely consist of glowing praise for the subjects of the article." (Skinwalker) in fact the articles are cited to secondary sources as required. If you wish to critique sources cited, or the subjects of the articles, use the talk pages, or make contributions to the articles citing secondary sources accordingly, rather than just deleting entire sections without giving any reasons, or discussing on the talk pages, as you did. Zanze123 ( talk) 19:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
The claim about Arnold Ehret's 'assassination' was already in the article. I later quoted from the published article What ever happened to Arnold Ehret by Sylvia Saltman in Vegetarian World Magazine (1977), which refuted the claim, in order to show both sides. Regarding 'self-published' books, books lacking publishers may have been commercially published, the name of the publishers, to be confirmed, just like any other verification. If Wiki regards a topic as 'fringe', labelling it 'fringe' would benefit the reader. If academic sources are the most important criteria when providing references, make some relevant contributions to the Fruitarian article. Zanze123 ( talk) 20:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
There are 2 main academic sources in the article which favour fruitarianism - 1 about Alan Walker, 1 from a South African journal (whilst there is a whole section Nutritional Concerns with many more than 2 academic sources critical of fruitarianism). Yet according to everyone above, the article should be reverted to exclude the ones in favour whilst keeping those critical of fruitarianism. How then is the article balanced (a concern voiced above) if only academic sources which critique the diet are permitted at the article. I fully support SummerPhD's point that an article of this nature warrants more academic sources than non-academic sources, but presenting both sides. There is a lack of sources available, but how many of you against this article have ever contributed anything besides deletions? When academic sources provided, they are immediately dismissed unless the discredit fruitarianism. Further, not all aspects of this article warrrant academic sources - such as the different possible fruitarian diets. That is an aspect central to the subject matter, but is not an academic matter but a cultural one. Yet you are all above in favour of deleting that too. With regard to the point above about quote farm, the quotes should all be removed, and used if and where appropriate for citation purposes. In its place should be a section called Advocates, and another section called Critics, briefly mentioning those such as in the quotes to be removed. To revert this article to the September version is to erode all other changes, without giving specific reasons in each case for doing so. Rather than just deleting content, provide reasons for deleting or amending individual points on the talk page, - which only SummerPhD has done. If you feel that this article does not deserve to exist (because as it sounds to me, you disagree with it, or object to it, or because you perceive it to be fringe and therefore automatically unscientific - Galileo was also considered fringe), then it should be merged with another article as a subsection of veganism or rawfoodism etc. Zanze123 ( talk) 23:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I fully agree with your point about the need for notability. What is Wiki's requirement? You suggest popular advocates of fruitarianism and rawfoodism are not relevant, because they are popular among fruitarians (and rawfoodists), rather than other groups. They are popular and thus noteable in the dietary movements they relate to. They are thus noteable in general in relation to the dietary topics they relate to. If you feel they are not, then please delete all advocates of all diets (vegan, vegetarian, rawfood etc), at the relevant listings on the same basis, i.e. that they are only generally noteable within the dietary group they relate to, but not to society in general. If you can show that they are not noteable in general, then delete the entire articles including all such existing articles on similar advocates of specific diets, on the same basis. Citing advocates of fruitarianism and verifying their dietary beliefs with quotes from their commercially published books, and secondary source articles about those advocates, is not hagiographical. However, if you feel there is hagiographical content, highlight it for at the talk pages for discussion, amendment and or removal. Since there is a lack of academic published research, chronicling what authors thought in history, is not irrelevant to the subject of the fruitarian article. Zanze123 ( talk) 01:31, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
So the history of Western fruitarian thought, has no basis in the article. If so, then the history of vegan thought, vegetarian thought, rawfoodist thought etc, and all such advocates, should be removed from the respective articles. Regarding notable fruitarians and reliable sources, the problem there is that this enables no fruitarians to be listed as notable and virtually no reliable sources in favor of fruitarianism to be included, not because there are not reliable sources, or notable fruitarians, but because perceptions of what is notable and reliable will vary, as will knowledge of notable fruitarians and reliable sources. You can say there are no reliable sources even if there are, or dismiss those which exist e.g. Alan Walker, South African journal etc. Dismissing the B12, protein, defficiency and mucus topics by presenting only reliable academic sources without contrasting that with the counter-belief and accompanying sources, does not make for a balanced article. Vanity press and 'some guy's website' are not relevant to articles. As for 'esoteric publishers', the publishers of the Bible could be classified as 'esoteric' depending on your belief, so this point makes no sense. To suggest that only self-published sources have 'real-depth' makes no sense. The New York Times article on Alan Walker was not self-published. The South Africa journal was not self-published. There are other examples of non-self published research on the topics of fruitarianism, B12, protein, mucus, vitamins, defficiencies, both for and in favour, by academia, science and M.D.s. For example: Gabriel Cousens is an M.D. not an N.D. hence the quote which was included, yet this has been classified as 'pseudo-scientific' and was deleted without discussion. In reality, anything which is in favor of fruitarianism shall be deemed unscientific, unreliable and unnotable so that the article can be slanted according to conventional beliefs rather than be balanced in presentation. Zanze123 ( talk) 01:52, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree with your point about media sources. For example at Ann Wigmore and Viktoras Kulvinskas, I added media sources, and the same can be done for Fruitarianism. That is no reason not to chronicle what authors and scientists mentioned fruitarianism (and its related topics e.g. protein metabolism) in the last 150 years. Thomas Powell, Corwyn Samuel West, Ragnar Berg, Louis Pasteur and other doctors, chemists and scientists have written about these subjects. You may not know about their work, or may not agree with it, but that is not a reason to automatically dismiss them and their findings. As for diets which sound similar to fruitarianism but are not, this depends how fruitarianism is defined, which is precisely why the different definitions are relevant to the subject of this article. Zanze123 ( talk) 02:04, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
The article rawfoodism features many many different definitions. Therefore, there is no reason why the fruitarianism article should be any different. It ends when all main definitions, such as now, are included in order to be comprehensive. Or, have a biased, one-sided definition, that readers will simply laugh at, and scorn Wikipedia for being so narrow-minded. Since fruitarianism is a sub-set of veganism, there are few books only on the subject. Therefore it is not unreasonable nor irrelevant to cite books in which fruitarianism is significantly mentioned but where the book is not wholly about fruitarianism. A book about nutrition which discusses fruitarianism cannot be said to be irrelevant, for example. Zanze123 ( talk) 18:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
If the history of fruitarianism is relevant, the quoting prominent advocates of fruitarianism in history is relevant. Should an article about Thomas Edison never quote from any of Edison's published writings because although reliable, such quotes would not be independent. If so, all quotations from all figures mentioned on Wikipedia, should be deleted as being not independent. The guidelines for notability are not an editor's whim, but a group of editors who can club together in the name of 'consensus'. Balance is a synonym of neutral point of view, of course. If you believe a neutral point of view means having a greater emphasis on science, then that's not neutral, because science is only one system of thought. Even so, listing various kinds of sub-diet is not a scientific phenomenon but a cultural one. If fringe articles are not allowed, delete all fringe articles on Wiki- there seem to be several hundred thousand depending on the definition of fringe. If you refer to fringe points, or quotes, discuss them on the talk page for discussion, amendment and or removal, rather than deleting entire sections without discussion, in the name of 'neutrality' as has been happening. "We're not out to destroy the fruitarianism article" - those campaigning for the reversal of the article to September, clearly are - as then, all points in the article in support of fruitarianism e.g. Alan Walker, South African Journal, quotes by prominent fruitarians, quotes by doctors like Gabriel Cousens M.D., can be destroyed. So, if you are not out to destroy the article, don't revert it but improve it, through discussion. Enough people have commented already on the article being lacking in neutrality. First party publications can be fact checked just like any other source. Wiki is not the place for promotion. Quoting a first party or indeed third party publication does not automatically equate with promotion. But it can and often is. It depends how promotion is defined. Wikipedia is full of promotion. An article on General Electric or General Motors, is in itself a form of promotional material. Where is the 'good faith' when editors of this article have deleted entire sections without any reason or discussion, and where contributions in favor of fruitarianism are deleted is not good faith. Those who delete or campaign for deletion, don't appear to ever contribute besides deletions. Zanze123 ( talk) 18:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
When a noteable person who has written a book about fruitarianism e.g. I Live On Fruit by Essie Honiball is quoted, then it can be said that the person is fringe, and therefore the person is not notable, or the person wasn't a scientist, or it wasn't a 3rd party source. So Wiki's guidelines and the approach of editors, can be circular so that nothing aside from science (1 system), is ever included. That is not neutrality. That is mass bias to 1 system of thought based on the artificialistic fallacy. Zanze123 ( talk) 18:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
A couple of articles set off some redflags for me: Multiplicative calculus and Non-Newtonian calculus. Actually, it's mostly multiplicative calculus that I am presently concerned with. User:Smithpith (also moonlighting as an IP), is (admittedly) Michael Grossman, the author of a book on so-called "non-Newtonian calculus" (essentially an obvious and fairly common idea repackaged as though it were a fancy new "non-Newtonian" idea). The articles, and their proponents, seem to have all of the hallmarks of a fringe theory. In particular, there is the question of how these articles should be categorized. (Should they be in Category:Calculus? Does that violate WP:ONEWAY?) Sławomir Biały ( talk) 02:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
A consensus needs to happen somehow. This silly nonsense has a way of creeping across the rest of our articles on basic undergraduate mathematics, and suddenly Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat starts to look relevant. Sławomir Biały ( talk) 12:05, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
There is currently a lengthy discussion (and edit war) at Sexual orientation change efforts over the inclusion of position statements by Positive Alternatives to Homosexuality. Gabbe ( talk) 22:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Another siddha who supposed lived for several hundred years before his death in 1989. Personally, I'm dubious. Article is up for WP:DYK review at this time. Mangoe ( talk) 07:14, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
A new editor is editing the article to reflect a more controversial, fringe position than has previously been maintained and agreed. Could other editors please review and respond. Verbal chat 10:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
A fairly new editor Jrgilb ( talk · contribs · logs) seems intent on reverting any indication that blood-type diets are pseudoscience and unsupported by empirical data. Your input and participation are requested at blood type and its talk page, and at blood type diet. - Nunh-huh 17:05, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
This new article, about the Belgian man thought to be comatose for years but now supposedly communicating, could use all the eyes it can get. Looie496 ( talk) 17:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Can some people please have a look at this article. Floydian ( talk · contribs) apparently WP:OWNs this page, and is editwarring to his preferred version and engaging in personal attacks on other editors on the talk page. The dispute revolves around the alt med use of colloidal silver, and using in vitro studies of silver (not colloidal necessarily, or of the alt med treatments) to support the alt med section. A summary of the alt med evidence base is also being removed from the lead. More eyes and opinions required, I find it hard to engage with the level of vitriol directed at othhr editor though. Verbal chat 17:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I am another editor that has been a regular editor on the colloidal silver article. Recently, a bunch of editors, including Verbal, have descended on the article, reverting sourced information with no discussion about the reverts. I guess Verbal felt that putting NPOV on the comment was good enough and how dare Floydian question that. I am not surprised that Floydian has reverted much of the "fly by edits", and am surprised that he has kept his cool as well as he has. stmrlbs| talk 01:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
After a preceding long discussion at the ANI here, we were actually able to have a constructive discussion at the article and made some progress, however, then an user called Wdford joined the discussion. Now, you might be wondering, what this editor is doing there, and I am wondering that, too. But that question aside, if we concentrate on only this article: Wdford is not able to approach the discussion with the required diligence. In the first of his series of edits, here, Wdford added a statement based on a fringe source, quote:
I've repeatedly tried to explain to him, which this is highly problematic, my last long posting on this is here. Even Dhawker, who was banned from the article, advised Wdford on this on his talk page using his sock-puppet account, quote: "Trust me. You will never get the Immunogenics reference or anything remotely like it included in the article. This is a medical article so any references will undergo extreme scrutiny from many editors who haven't even commented yet." here. That, in turn, made it really easy to identify "Beaupoint" as a sockpuppet of DHawker, but if appears that Wdford does not want to accept that advise. He wrote today, that I would " even now disputes the fact that the IRF [Immunogenics research foundation] people are scientists, although their staff is packed with highly qualified specialists – whose only failing is that they don’t agree with Zara. I have nonetheless offered to remove this sentence in the spirit of compromise, ..." here. Certainly, the guideline * wp:fringe* is not about "compromise". Wdford has to acknowledge that people like those from the "Immunogenic Research Foundation" are not scientists, and that the addition of such material as 'science' to Wikipedia is not allowed, regardless of whether a editor demands it to be removed in a specific case or not. I don't actually think that Wdford will acknowledge that - ever. So, if we want to save the article from being used as a playground by fringe advocates (or people who are simply unable to distinguish between the fringe and the scientific view), each of Wdfords edits must come under close scrutiny. Considering what he has written, is is rather likely that he will continue with problematic edits as soon as the full protection expires, which is in 3 hours. I would take an immediate look then myself, but I've already spent the last night writing the request for checkuser concerning DHawker, and I might actually want to get some sleep tonight. Zara1709 ( talk) 22:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Super chimney appears to be a crackpot variation of solar updraft tower, the latter being a legitimate solar power scheme which at least has been tested in a pilot plant. It has been suggested to merge the former into the latter, but perhaps an AFD is in order. Mangoe ( talk) 03:13, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Magnet therapy ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is in need of a little TLC from WP:MEDRS and WP:VALID. Please do not simply revert back to the last version by me, as some of the new editor's material is good. On the other foot, magnets do not have different mood-altering effects depending on which pole is facing your susceptibility chakra, MRI and TCMS are off-topic, and there is plenty of placebo effect in animal studies. - 2/0 ( cont.) 19:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
This article is full of non notable texts and unsourced statements. Please add to your watch list and contribute to discussion on the talk page. Verbal chat 11:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
And here I was expecting to see: Archives of TV Guide; How to Irrigate Your Farm; Early Maps of Mars; Digging Across Panama!; A Little Swim to Calais; The Suez Project; By Train from London to Paris?; Faces of Age; A Dentist's Manual to the Treatment of Caries; my diary; yours too. — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 07:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Violation of WP:WEIGHT and WP:ONEWAY. ScienceApologist ( talk) 03:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
WP:WEIGHT isn't really appropriate here, because the Dayanandian nonsense is really the entire reason for the topic's notability. -- dab (𒁳) 17:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Full of original research including original synthesis between mythology and this UFOlogical fantasy. ScienceApologist ( talk) 03:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Long list of phenomena ("Unseen forces lift and hurl a brick across a room" etc.) "captured" on a reality TV show, all of it being taken at face value. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 00:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
This article needs to be fixed. I have left a message on the talk page. An IP has done some whitewashing and uses primary sources to promote this pseudoscience. -- Brangifer ( talk) 07:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I came across Whole body vibration just now. Seems pretty fringey. Sławomir Biały ( talk) 14:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Is this proper linguistics or just something made up? dab, you would know. It needs to be merged with Dacian language, but what to keep? Anything? Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is there a section on "data" here that does not include any reference to actual scientific data? ScienceApologist ( talk) 16:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
While I don't subscribe to "burn all infoboxes", this particular one should definitely be burned with extreme prejudice. -- dab (𒁳) 15:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
This trance medium's article is in an unbelievably poor. Needs much attention and trimming to bring it to any kind of reasonable status. Could people please lend a hand. Problems include poor sourcing, very poor and non-neutral writing, length, essay like writing, and overuse of quotes. Possible solution is stubbing and starting over, as it is a huge mess. Verbal chat 15:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Went to see 2012 last night, and witnessed cities collapsing into bottomless black empty gulfs while nearby supervolcanoes vomit endless magma and rock and ash into the skies to start a new Ice Age, and the superheated Earth's crust melts as floods cover the Himalayas, and 27 days later the survivors see sunny blue skies with pretty white clouds and a bright future ahead for them... WTF? And then I come back and look at the incredible stuff here that credulous people manage to cram down their credulators, and I think about giving up on reason. But I forget how the creed of unreason is supposed to run: is it " Everything is True, Nothing is Forbidden!" — or is it " Nothing is True, Everything is Forbidden!" — or should I just stick with the old traditional "Ia! Ia! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!" for the ease of memorization? — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 22:43, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
So I'm ditchin' and hitchin' a ride
I got my Sitchin guide
He's my Nibiru guru...
Planet X Marks the Spot!
— Doctor Steel — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 10:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
An IP has done a whitewashing job at Plasma cosmology.
I recommend reverting to the previous version that has more information.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 18:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I can't make sense of the demands from newly-returned user:Bharatveer on Talk:Max_Müller. Well, I can guess -- I suspect some Hindutva website(s) are circulating fringe assertions. Paul B ( talk) 13:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Wasn't Bharatveer banned? If he wasn't, we're just looking at more wasted time, this is a hardcore, dyed-in-the-wool ideologist with no interest in mere facts. -- dab (𒁳) 15:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Please see Bharatveer's recent edits on Talk:Romila Thapar, which seem to share the same ideological space with his edits at Talk:Max_Müller. --Akhilleus ( talk) 18:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
He has brought this up in June 2008,
which was answered adequately by Akhilleus ( talk · contribs),
There is nothing to see here. We aren't calling people Marxists who state that they aren't Marxists and that they are insulted by the epithet. Actual Marxists embrace the label "Marxist". "Marxist" is just a label the hardcore nationalists like to tag on any Indian author who is not staunchly to the political right of Attila the Hun. -- dab (𒁳) 19:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- Bharatveer ( talk) 11:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
I am starting work on improving Wikipedia's coverage of telepathy, parapsychology etc. There doesn't appear to be much about selection bias or 'file drawer' effect or on statistics generally in the articles I have seen. Statistics is very important in reporting this stuff as, in the total absence of any known mechanism to explain these reported phenomena, deviation from chance is the only real evidence. Is there any material I haven't seen yet? I have looked at the main articles, which aren't very good. I.e. they talk about 'scepticism', when what they should be talking about is whether there exists any sort of evidence at all. Also about fraud and so on. Speaking of which, why doesn't the article about Joseph Banks Rhine mention the fraud of Walter Levy http://www.answers.com/topic/jr-walter-j-levy? Is this because of a biographical concern? Is Wikipedia allowed to report fraud where the subject may be living? Thanks Rupert of the New Age ( talk) 11:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
More eyes needed on the Colorpuncture article. Edit warring, addition of unsourced content, socking, etc.. -- Brangifer ( talk) 19:56, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Our article on the Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident could probably use some watchful eyes. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 00:14, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
More eyes again, please, so that those who have been involved since the original post .... don't fall out between themselves. A very frustrating article to work on. I may need to withdraw from it. Itsmejudith ( talk) 00:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Pondicherry interpretation - what is this? Is it genuine? is the man with the red link really qualified? I Googled and he does have a Physics degree. Rupert of the New Age ( talk) 11:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
just what the world needed -- a Sri Aurobindo interpretation of quantum mechanics. -- dab (𒁳) 19:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Ujm ( talk · contribs) is the author, writing about his own work, referring to himself in the 3rd person. Reminds me of David Rohl. I doubt we can keep this article. dab (𒁳) 19:35, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I also find he is a bona fide physicist, but by all appearances he is also, if you excuse my Klatchian, full of himself, or else he wouldn't give a bunch of articles written by himself the grandiose title of "Pondicherry interpretation" (implying that we have "Pondicherry" answering "Copenhagen"). He also feels called to publishing snippets of personal emails as "endorsements" [26], and of course he feels called to write extensive articles about his own work on Wikipedia.
This is still about a series of bona fide physics papers. I haven't plodded through them enough to grasp the issue, but it's mostly about Mohrhoff publishing a flurry of papers "explaining" the measurment problem (although, in spite of all the "to be is to be measured" I have yet to catch him explaining what he thinks a 'measurment' is, the Gretchenfrage of qm interpretations) and two papers by other authors which grant that Mohrhoff's ideas are interesting but which at the same time point to formal flaws. The question is, does this meet our inclusion criteria? -- dab (𒁳) 12:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I came across this article during New Page patrol and it appears to simply be an unsourced conspiracy theory. I'm tempted to send it to AfD, but I have virtually no history in dealing with fringe theories on Wikipedia. Could someone more knowledgeable take a look and advise the best way to proceed? -- Jezebel'sPonyo shhh 15:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I think this may be viral marketing for an upcoming film or something. [27] -- dab (𒁳) 16:13, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Just a head's up about the edits of Ntsukunyane Mphanya ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is adding material about the theories of one Dr. Bernard Leeman. (This appears to be all Ntsukunyane Mphanya is adding to Wikipedia.) Yes, Leeman has a Ph.D., & last I checked he is a member of the faculty of some accredited university (IIRC, in Brunei). However, the man's field of study is political science -- he was an armed activist in South Africa -- & he has published an book of dubious value which incorporates a number of other fringe theories in an Afrocentric framework. These edits have been popping up in articles relating to Biblical studies, Ethiopian culture, & other tangentially-related articles. (I've left the material in Kebra Negast only because I have encountered a lot of difficulty in finding works which actually discuss this important work, rather than mention it in passing, or in summarizing Ethiopian history/culture, & Dr. Leeman's work has led me to the only monograph I've found written solely on the Kebra Negast.) So far, I have been reverting these additions based on POV-pushing & undue weight. -- llywrch ( talk) 19:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Moreschi, that's quite interesting that Ben-Jochannan claimed to have been born in Gondar in 1918. At the time Gondar was, if I may say, very isolated from the rest of the world, & hardly the place the average Puerto Rican of any faith would find his/her way to -- it was difficult enough for credentialed representatives (i.e., legates, ambassadors, etc.) of a major power to get there. -- llywrch ( talk) 00:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Editor still active, complaining about censorship at [ [38]]. Dougweller ( talk) 12:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
And he left an unsigned comment at Talk:Dʿmt claiming that Dr Nadia Durrani is quoted as stating one thing in her publication, yet in email to him claims she believes the opposite. Not that her book is being misquoted, or that she changed her conclusions in a later publication. He also claimed that "the matter has now been taken to the arbitrators with copies of Dr Nadia Durrani’s emails". (I'm scratching my head over his complaint: why doesn't he just provide the evidence requested?) -- llywrch ( talk) 06:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Someone has recently revised the Great Year article to emphasize that the "Great Year" and the "Platonic Year" are two different things. Would this constitute a fringe theory? As far as I can tell, the scholarly consensus is that the "Great Year" and the "Platonic Year" refer to the same thing. - 38.112.107.3 ( talk) 00:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
the article needs cleanup, both before and after the anon's edit, so there is little point in reverting. Somebody needs to sit down and do it properly. -- dab (𒁳) 09:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
For a long time, the first was a placeholder redirect to the second. I've now removed the redirect and started an article. Hopefully from now on no one wil be misled by following links to Vedic astrology. Meanwhile, unfortunately, gremlins and entropy have already brought their usual horrors to Jyotiṣa, the erstwhile redirect/link target. Back in July someone went to town with the article and, besides eliminating all but one source of references, also thoughtfully deleted all of the historical and contemporary information that Dab and I had collected (as part of a cleanup effort a while back) and which had a secondary aim of hopefully warning off the "vedic" enthusiasts. The article is now shorn of all references except to the works of someone who is practically unknown to Google scholar (basically, a David Frawley clone.) And, sure enough, with nothing to warn against it, in the fullness of time the "vedic" bogey has been written into the lede. It's possible that any attempt to restore sanity to the article may be resisted, considering statements such as this and this. rudra ( talk) 03:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't see why you didn't just revert to the last good version. This was quite obviously an attack on the article's integrity, and we have enough policies to smack people with who make such attempts. It is, however, disturbing that nobody noticed the attack for almost half a year. It appears that other than Rudrasharman and myself, nobody is watching this article, and when the two of us aren't looking, the gremlins are free to just tear it down yet again. -- dab (𒁳) 12:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I frankly don't care whether this was malice or cluelessness, as our reaction is going to be the same either way. I like your expression of "gremlins and entropy" . -- it's irrelevant whether it was a gremlin (India must be brimfull of these) or just entropy. The Jyotisha article is a troll magnet because it combines the "astrology" troublespot with the "Hindu patriotism" one. -- dab (𒁳) 13:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Saw it on DYK. Cites two sources, some synth issues with one of the references. I get a bit nervous about any article purporting to be scientific that has both a very limited range of sources 'and' WP:SYNTH issues of any sort so I thought I'd mention it.
Perhaps a cosmology specialist can take a look and, if legitimate, expand. Simonm223 ( talk) 17:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
the subject is certainly notabe enough, the question is, do we need a separate article under this heading? What this is, effectively, is one angle on Fermi's paradox, and I see no reason to split it off its main article. -- dab (𒁳) 13:12, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
I have started a new talk page section about why he's notable. This article is in desperate need of coverage of his fringe POV. The article reads more like a hagiography. -- Brangifer ( talk) 01:05, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mileva_Mari%C4%87
The following amended sentence was posted on the Mileva Maric page on 19 December 2009:
The full context is as follows:
Reference 33 cites Margarete Maurer, Senta Troemel-Ploetz and Evan Harris Walker. However, none of these are historians of physics, historians of science, or indeed historians at all.
Margarete Maurer is a lecturer for theoretical aspects in the Life Sciences at the universities of Innsbruck and Vienna, especially "nature", "gender" and philosophy/sociology of science. http://www.epws.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=283&Itemid=4652
Senta Troemel-Ploetz is a linguist and writer on feminist themes. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senta_Tr%C3%B6mel-Pl%C3%B6tz
Evan Harris Walker was a physicist, but at the time when he wrote about Maric and Einstein he was the Director of the Walker Cancer Research Institute which he founded. He also published books on the nature of consciousness. http://www.pdonovan.com/blog_face_reviews/evan_walker.php
I therefore propose that the sentence in question be amended to:
[Open to suggestions]
Esterson ( talk) 09:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
classic fringe material. This theory has been discussed and found lacking merit. There are just a few die-hard feminists who keep assuming there must be a conspiracy. It's a question of WP:DUE. -- dab (𒁳) 13:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
There has been a big Arbcom case on this. I've looked it over again and still see big issues with information metabolism; if anything, it's worse than ever. I've asked arbcom for comment about my editing in the matter, since I am technically an interested party, but I would invite others to take another look. Mangoe ( talk) 15:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Relating to an unresponded to discussion an IP editor has added the Republic of China to the Government in exile article. Past consensus has been that the Republic of China is not in exile, as the IP editor has claimed; therefore, without new consensus or references provided, the content was removed from the article. Relevant articles relating to this topic are Political status of Taiwan, Legal status of Taiwan, and Treaty of Taipei. This is a highly contentious topic, and as such WP:NEU clearly applies, and discussion should attempt to remain civil.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 23:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Did you know that the articles associated with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and Keirsey Temperament Sorter identify historical figures and living humans as belonging to various archetypes and personality types as intuited by "experts" (who might be classified as "true believers")? Since these are simply the opinions of pseudoscientists and not facts, I recommend either a hefty couching of these lists or an outright removal. They are extremely misleading to the casual reader and also possibly BLP violations.
Did you know that Kristi Yamaguchi is an ISFJ or that Sandra Day O'Connor is a Supervisor (Role Variant)? No? I bet they didn't either.
Please help clean up this walled garden.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 03:38, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
This personality type material quite apparently has the tendency to attract cruft. Remember the circus surrounding Socionics we had a whileback. We just need to insist stuff is referenced closely, and prevent articles from sprawling out into sub-articles. It's not a problem to have a lengthy article on each type, even with this kind of dubious sorting of historical individuals, just as long as things remain closely sourced. -- dab (𒁳) 13:08, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
2) Start applying the type to people who have not participated in a typing scheme. So, basically, my question would be this: is there a RS stating that Kristi Yamaguchi self-identifies as an ISFJ?
The funny thing about the MBTI in particular is that the authors of the program are aware that the results are not valid without conscious self-selection. So typing strangers is basically the worst sort of bad behaviour from an insider perspective. Simonm223 ( talk) 18:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Could some outside editors have a look at the discussion at Talk:Collapse of the World Trade Center#Conspiracy theory section heading, which concerns whether a fringe viewpoint should be represented in the article. Hut 8.5 21:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Creator of this masterpiece User:0XQ has also made a number of other, er, quirky edits. Paul B ( talk) 21:41, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Awesome. rudra ( talk) 11:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Another channelled text, article needs a lot of cleaning up. Dougweller ( talk) 19:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
More eyes please. There is presently an RFC about whether it was removing vandalism to delete inappropriately referenced claims that human-caused global warming is discredited. Argh! Simonm223 ( talk) 14:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
"Because those that see the apparition have to worry about keeping a security clearance, sightings are not always well publicized to coworkers, the outside world, or at all." Amazing what you can learn on Wikipedia ; - LuckyLouie ( talk) 22:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
"Washington capitol ghost cat" produces several google books entries, at least some of which directly mention this alleged phenomenon, here. I acknowledge that cannot prove, one way or another, that someone did not make up the story sometime, but it does seem to meet notability criteria. Exploring the evolution of the idea is another matter entirely. John Carter ( talk) 17:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
I reverted an edit by a named account, only to be reverted myself by an IP. [50] The lead now begins "The Angel Moroni (pronounced /m?'ro?na?/) is an angel". Dougweller ( talk) 19:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
What to do about this "new concept in human health and identity"? It is supposed to mean "distress in the face of environmental destruction". I am sure that the reaction to environmental degradation has been studied and is a notable topic. But Glenn Albrecht ( talk · contribs) pretends that by slapping a made-up portmanteau on the topic it becomes a "new concept". The man appears to be university professor at Murdoch University, Perth, which is pretty much the only reason I haven't speedied this.
The only third-party reference quoted based is critical [51] dab (𒁳) 12:41, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
google it. It does verify in assorted online blogs, magazines and glossaries. There are third party sources, as I state above the article even cites a critical one. The question is, does this suffice? The other question is, what would be "some other article that covers the concept"? If I had found one, I would just have silently merged. But our environmental degradation article is disgracefully stubby. -- dab (𒁳) 14:22, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
← Maybe I was a bit blunt, but the point is that the number of results doesn't even mean this term is notable enough to get meaningful references. Has anyone delved into the Google Scholar results to see if there's more than a passing mention to the term in those 30 hits? — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 14:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
This AP article covers many subjects relevant to articles about alternative medicine:
Brangifer ( talk) 20:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Place4us ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
A quick glance at some of the user's edits seem a bit odd, and far beyond a typical new account. This edit [52] and this one [53] just feel odd to me. Ravensfire ( talk) 03:16, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Could a few regulars familiar with the complementary and alternative medicine topic area look over Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Regulated professional trade publication's reliability and provide some feedback? It would be sincerely appreciated. Thanks! Vassyana ( talk) 07:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
This needs some attention. Currently it gives significant coverage to the theory milk with predominantly A1 β-casein is harmful without making it clear most independent reviews have found the evidence is too weak to support the conclusion e.g. http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/policy-law/projects/a1-a2-milk/ Nil Einne ( talk) 08:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
A classic WP:FRINGE article, notability is arguable because there have been TV shows about it and what not, but at the same time the thing has zero credibility in academia. But in this case we have User:David Rohl, the author himself, keeping a tight watch on the topic to ensure it is presented as favourably as at all possible. Same problem at the David Rohl bio article. Rohl is touted as an "Egyptologist" because he once got a university degree in that field. He neither has any academic affiliatin, nor does he have a PhD, so I think the label (and the category) aren't appropriate without qualification. -- dab (𒁳) 10:55, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
{undent} Not to mention how defensive Rohl is... it makes for an uncomfortable editing environment. He doesn't want to admit he has a CoI! Simonm223 ( talk) 19:24, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Just saw a plea at WikiProject Rational Skepticism for eyes on both of these articles. The AAH one has been protected for 2 weeks, the other is unprotected. My experience of this debate elsewhere has not been pleasant. Dougweller ( talk) 16:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
I'm not sure this is the right venue and please feel free to move this to another venue if appropriate. A new editor named Islamrevealed ( talk · contribs) (which is a bad sign from the get go) has been edit warring for the inclusion of a conspiracy theory published by WND Books about the Council on American-Islamic Relations on that organization's entry. The text he put in the lead originally read:
I have reverted this editor twice and don't want to continue edit warring. In the current version the editor simply removed the name of the publisher and the description of the book from the inserted text as if that changes the fact that it is a fringe conspiracy theory published by a group with a known anti-Islamic POV. Some attention to this by others would be helpful. PelleSmith ( talk) 18:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
BBC website has a story about a possible link between virus and ME. This will be picked up by many people. There are some people who think ME/CFS can be effectively treated with graded exercise and cognitive behavioural therapy. There are other people who say that CFS is different to ME, and that you can tell the difference because "real" (their words, not mine) ME doesn't respond to CBT or graded exercise. The latter camp seem to say that the illness has no psychological component (and also seem to say that a psychological component means it's not a "real" illness.) It's this group of people who'll seize the reports of a possible link with the virus and they may distort the findings. Here's a linky. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8298529.stm 87.115.68.252 ( talk) 16:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
The issue of the Cyrus cylinder as a supposed charter of human rights has come up yet again on the Human rights article (summary version: Iranian nationalists and political figures claim that the CC is the world's first "human rights charter"; historians reject this viewpoint as tendentious and anachronistic). This has been discussed on the fringe theories noticeboard on two previous occasions. It's being discussed at Talk:Human rights#Cyrus Cylinder, where the usual suspects are demanding that it be included. Some input from outside editors would be appreciated. -- ChrisO ( talk) 00:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Fringe claims that staring at the sun is safe and can replace food and water continue to proliferate at sungazing. Outside input would again be welcome. Skinwalker ( talk) 21:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia's biggest POV-push is up for an RFC again. It only violates half-a-dozen core policies, though, so I'm sure no real changes will happen. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 213 FCs served 20:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The problem I think is that the majority of Wikipedia articles Strongly lean toward the man-made global warming theory and tend to be dismissive toward the idea that there is any controversy on the subject. Even the Global Warming Controversy article has some of this and because it is a controversial subject and has a number of aggressive editors, even legitimate changes that weaken the argument for man-made global warming are left out of the article. The result is frustrated editors and the article in question. Voiceofreason01 ( talk) 22:33, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The usual suspects are up to their tricks, trying to represent this rather dull out-growth of Christian theology as an evil occult conspiracy... Honestly I don't know why they bother. Anyway I have removed the offending WP:SYNTH but more eyes would be useful. Simonm223 ( talk) 19:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Creation Ministries International ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Worst creationist POV problems:
Other problems detailed at Talk:Creation Ministries International#Unsourced POV additions. The POV is so extreme that it even has one of the creationist editors there criticising it. I've reverted, but am now coming up against WP:3RR. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 05:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit worried about the list of signatories section. If nothing else, the academic backgrounds seems an argument from authority. Worse, in many cases, they're wrong: the list is well-known for misrepresenting the academic connections of the people on it, and it looks like at least some of it was copied from there. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 213 FCs served 12:54, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
The List of signatories to "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" was recently merged into A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism without any prior discussion. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 06:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
this is a classic case of attempting to abuse Wikipedia as a platform for ideological/religious propaganda. The entire thing belongs merged into Discovery Institute, as it is a propaganda stunt intended to be "controversially" covered in media beginning to end. It turns out that there is nothing "Scientific" about the document at all, and that it is never discussed, even by people pushing it, in terms of any "scientific" points that it makes, it is all about the list of signatories. Unsurprisingly so, seeing that the actual "petition" doesn't make any kind of point other than expressing skepticism towards "Darwinian theory", without specifying the nature of this skepticism, or any reasoning behind it. It's a propaganda stunt for the consumption of the popular media beginning to end. -- dab (𒁳) 16:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
According to this article's creator, it is " recreation of deleted article made necessary because of new incontrovertible, easily-checkable evidence on the ground in new book by Butler and Knight", presumably Megalithic geometry deleted at DRV. Whatever, it is certainly fringe and could use some attention to make it NPOV and well written. Dougweller ( talk) 14:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
It is beyond me how you can use the internet to "check the facts" on prehistoric metrology. I was under the impression that the internet was developed in the 20th century, significantly after the megalithic age. It is also beyond me how people can waste their time writing books as obviously worthless as this. Well, it's probably more satisfying than just watching TV, but they could spend their time writing good fiction instead of bad science. -- dab (𒁳) 14:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
why should we delete it? It's classic WP:FRINGE material. It's just, we already have an article on this, currently located at pseudoscientific metrology. Just redirect it. -- dab (𒁳) 16:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Menzel, an early UFO skeptic, apparently had his theories rather readily refuted, at least if the criticism section in his biography is any indication. Mangoe ( talk) 23:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
{undent} Tell me about it. And it's way too busy at work today for me to give it the attention it needs... short of just stubbing the page. Simonm223 ( talk) 20:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
There may be a claim that the Emotional Freedom Technique has a scientific basis following a certain study on placebo analgesia. See edits [2], [3]. Would someone care to read the ref and confirm that it is WP:OR to mention it in these cases? Johnuniq ( talk) 07:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This article just came to my attention. Could do with a cleanup and perhaps rebalancing. Thanks, Verbal chat 11:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
It's spam, advertising a 2008 book. We should also check out the merge target. Eknath Easwaran -- comes up with 74 google book hits, almost exclusively as author. Apparently next to no independent coverage, not even in bibliographies. Among the very rare instances of unrelated authors quoting Easwaran is Magic Power Language Symbol (2008), and The Aquarian conspiracy (1980). The only non-incidential coverage I can find is The making of a teacher: conversations with Eknath Easwaran (2006). However, this isn't independent, as it appeared with Nilgiri Press as the rest of Easwaran's books. Notability not established. -- dab (𒁳) 15:42, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Nilgiri Press is run by Easwaran's own "Blue Mountain Center of Meditation". This is essentially self-published literature. Without reviews from notable independent sources this stuff has no place on Wikipedia. here we have some "critical acclaim" (listed without any publication details). Perhaps some of it can be used. "Critics" listed include Henri Nouwen, author of The Inner Voice of Love – Huston Smith, author of The World’s Religions – Wilson Library Bulletin – Yoga Journal – NAPRA ReView – Library Journal – Wisconsin Bookwatch – Spiritual Life – “Book Bag,” Marilis Hornidge, The Courier-Gazette – The Hindu – Holistic Health & Medicine – Cosmos – The San Diego Union – The Book Reader – Book News Previews, Burton Frye.
I tagged the Eknath Easwaran article, but this does not mean that I think it should be deleted. This just means that the current revision lacks sources establishing notability. It should remain tagged (not deleted) until such sources are added. The Passage Meditation article, however, can just be merged into the Easwaran one. -- dab (𒁳) 16:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I think we have this under control. There is some WP:COI, but the editor is being collaborative about it. -- dab (𒁳) 08:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I've just run into a user adding links to a "cart ruts" site which is part of an Electric Universe site [4] - rings a bell and clearly fringe, but I'm off to bed now. See [5] for the articles with the links. Some serious stuff on these ruts is at [6] and [7] and there's an article in Antiquity Magazine but I don't have access. Dougweller ( talk) 22:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Mentioned above. Now in AfD. Itsmejudith ( talk) 15:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
The deletion guidelines, Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators#Rough_consensus, state:
“ | Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any). Arguments that contradict policy, are based on opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted. For instance, if someone finds the entire page to be a copyright violation, a page is always deleted. If an argument for deletion is that the page lacks sources, but an editor adds the missing references, said argument is no longer relevant.
Wikipedia policy requires that articles and information be verifiable, avoid original research and synthesis, respect copyright, and be written from a neutral point of view. These policies are not negotiable, and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. A closing admin must determine whether an article violates these content policies. Where it is very unlikely that an article on the topic can exist without breaching policy, policy must be respected above individual opinions. |
” |
The closing administrator seems unaware of those rules. Shoemaker's Holiday talk 17:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
After nearly 30 monthss of people expressing serious doubt about the validity of the article but not doing anything about it, I have reverted the article back to the February 2007 version.— Kww( talk) 19:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Nothing major, but another rather amusing floating IP pushing the bizarre theory that various Indian languages are connected to Finno-Ugric: this proves, apparently, that the PIE urheimat is to be located in Scandinavia, and that "the Nazis were right after all". See contributions. Moreschi ( talk) 17:04, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Finally a nationalist crank who is not from the Balkans, the Near East or India! My faith in humanity is restored :op -- dab (𒁳) 19:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
The Netherlands have produced at least one Wikipedian with a nationalism of the decidedly cranky kind, but that's a case resolved two years ago, with no sock armies come back to haunt us.
FYI: Finland is nordic. Finland is not Scandinavian. Ditto for Iceland. - Hordaland ( talk) 22:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Just stumbled across the article on Dowsing. I don't have time to go in depth here, but a cursory overview shows that sources are being interpreted in their most positive light possible (or outright misinterpreted) in favor of the scientific accuracy of dowsing. For instance, here the article stated "dowsing may be ineffective at finding unmarked human burials," when in fact the author of the source stated that dowsing was at best ineffective and at worst harmful to proper cemetery mapping. Attention would be appreciated. // Chris (complaints)• (contribs) 15:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
If anyone has any knowledge of this person could they help with the article, which except for a few things is basically based on his website(s). Dougweller ( talk) 22:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
background: I recently blocked Skipsievert ( talk · contribs) indefinitely for continued disruptive POV-pushing. The essential background to Skip's edits appear to have been a technocratic POV. This covers a wide range of articles, some of which look to be covered by WP:FRINGE: see Technocracy Incorporated, Technate, energy accounting, thermoeconomics, Economics and energy, and probably quite a lot more if you have the energy to dig through his contributions. There appear to have been many others now redirected into the Technocracy Incorporated article. This could use some work from someone with more interest and knowledge than I have, in collaboration with WP:ECON, whose members are highly relieved that Skip has left the building. Moreschi ( talk) 14:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Softvision ( talk · contribs) seems to be trying to argue for certain aspects of General Relativity to be incorrect. Could someone take a look as his recent contributions and figure out the best way to explain to him what the problem is with the way he's trying to work with the encyclopedia? Thanks. -- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 14:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
This article, which I just discovered because its main author tried to add related material to one of the articles I watch, is nothing but nonsense. It appears to be based on the ideas of somebody named G.A. Kouzaev, with all the important sources taken from obscure publications. For all the sense this article makes, it could just as well be a hoax, though I doubt that it is. I am inclined to remove all of the incomprehensible sentences, but it doesn't seem like there would be anything left -- I wonder what others think? Looie496 ( talk) 19:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
The theory doesn't seem blatantly illegitimate (just a bit suspicious about "brain"), but the grammar and citation formatting are wretched, and poor English skills can't excuse the bad citing. Give it a while to let the editor do hir own cleanup, then push. A quantum-savvy and Russian-capable mentor might be handy here. — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 04:58, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
the topic is potentially valid. However, it has nothing to do with quantum computing. I understand that it is a hypothetical method of employing certain features of Classical Electrodymamics for computation that never really went anywhere. The--just as hypothetical--extension to quantum computing is discussed at Topological quantum computer. -- dab (𒁳) 14:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Those following their supposed migrations (to Greece, Sri Lanka, Cambodia...), might like to participate in the merge discussion I have started on whether Kamboja-Pala Dynasty of Bengal should be merged with Pala Empire. Itsmejudith ( talk) 18:29, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
An editor is edit-warring to insert the unrebutted YEC 'belief' "that radioactive decay rates are not constant and thus [YECs] challenge the validity of scientifically-accepted radiometric methods" into Young Earth creationism. I have suggested that this requires mainstream scientific context for inclusion, per WP:FRINGE. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Can some more editors add this article to their watchlist, and if interested, help source and de-fringe it ? I have been reverting the more egregious edits from probable sock accounts, but the article can use more help to make it encyclopdic and even establish notability. Abecedare ( talk) 04:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
excellent find! this links to a wealth of WP:FRINGE articles that had so far escaped my radar, Talbot Mundy, Louis Pauwels, Jacques Bergier, Le Matin des magiciens, Fantastic realism (literature), Planète (review), etc. -- dab (𒁳) 15:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I have the sad duty to announce the tragic demise of The Nine Unknown Men: they have gone from this to this; and from links with Ashoka, Jesus, Louis Pasteur, Buddha, Nazis, Theosophists, Popes, Extra-terrestrials etc to 1920's fantasy fiction and 1960's counter-culture. What a sorry letdown. Abecedare ( talk) 17:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Social Credit is a syncretic political/economic theory-of-everything developed by a British engineer in the 1920s, and historically very important in Canada, where it somehow managed to influence both the right- and left-wing parties that are still around today. It's some kind of combination of monetary crankiness, extremist populism, bankers poisoning our water and what have you. Anyway, the Wikipedia article about it is full of glowing exposition of the absurd doctrines, and not much else. EvanHarper ( talk) 22:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Is anyone watching this page? Among other things, it looks like it may be becoming a coatrack and an advert for various perpetual motion enthusiasts. Of particular concern are sentences like this:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Magnet_Motor_by_FM_Concepts
Somebody should go through and remove the stuff that is only referenced to promotional websites, for example. Also a lot of the criticism is unsourced probably because no one has bothered to comment on the ideas. WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE need to be applied heavily to the article.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 21:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
It appears that perpetual motion is a self-referential topic. It just never stops, does it? *sigh* — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 21:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that Anno Domini 2009 there are people who seriously advertise perpetual motion devices. You found Noah's Ark? Atlantis? The Holy Grail? The Abominable Snowman? Evidence of Neolithic nuclear techonology? Ancient Vedic UFOs? No problem, welcome to Wikipedia, pray write an article about it. But people who come here to tell us they disproved the 2nd Law of TD? That must really be as low as it gets. -- dab (𒁳) 17:31, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why we are listing all of Mills' publications in Fringe Journals (e.g. Physics Essays)? This would seem to contravene WP:SOAP, WP:COAT, and WP:FRINGE. ScienceApologist ( talk) 23:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Thinking about AfD and wanted a second opinion first. Simonm223 ( talk) 12:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
The human capacity for obsession with obscure details has led to ... Wikipedia! Frankly, Ludvikus or no Ludvikus, I find this stuff interesting. Paul's cleaned up version is reasonable. If it can be merged somewhere, merge it, otherwise clean it up and let it stick around. -- dab (𒁳) 14:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Ustadbarman ( talk · contribs) at P.N. Oak. And yes, I know we've been here before, but people need to keep their eyes peeled. Cheers, Moreschi ( talk) 08:06, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Pseudo-Hindutva at best, in this case. It is always good for comic relief to see these self-styled defenders of Hinduism fail utterly in Sanskrit, the sacred language of Hinduism. [10] -- dab (𒁳) 16:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
We seem to have kept the deathbed conversion story in check, but now the John Gano conversion story is making another attempt on George Washington and religion. It's not clear exactly where this story comes from, but it was given prominence by a Time story in the 1930s. The version in John Gano admits that it is unlikely to be true; the GW version doesn't. This in particular needs some other sources beyond Franklin Steiner and a rebuttal article which is unreachable at the moment. Mangoe ( talk) 18:16, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Just ran into this whilst looking at an edit at our Nommo article (someone changed 'failed to confirm' to 'failed to conclusively refute'. Can anyone take a look at the criticism section? Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 09:51, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
The section on 'Arnold Krumm-Heller' also bears scrutiny:
After the Zimmerman Telegram and former British MI-6 agent Crowley's role in the sinking of the Lusitania, who was carrying L. Ron Hubbard's uncle, the United States went to war and Krumm Heller's book Für Freiheit und Recht was published in Germany with the kaiser's blessings[9] but it would not be until 1946, that the novel Rose-Cross containing the secret of Sex Magic would be published in Argentina. Krumm-Heller confessed he would have to use the official language of the Roman Catholic priesthood for the public at large, he knew, were not ready for the new dispensation and so he wrote: "...Inmissio membri virilis in vaginam sine ejaculatio seminis."[10]
I can find no evidence in the cited source of MI6, Crowley, the Lusitania or Hubbard (let alone his uncle). This is also one of the more incoherent conspiracy theories I've come across. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 17:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
It has been suggested that Race and Intelligence constitutes a fringe topic. It is certainly controversial, and some of the science in this area is bad, but is there a consensus for the whole area being fringe? 213.48.162.17 ( talk) 21:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
No, it's not fringe. It's currently discussed in leading scientific journals by respected scholars (for example, see this series from early 2009 in the journal Nature: doi: 10.1038/457786a, doi: 10.1038/457788a, [11]). --06:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I repeat, Race and intelligence in the United States. You cannot call it "ethnicity and intelligence" when the debate is explicitly in terms of "race (US notions of) and intelligence". I have yet to see a study where "race" is not used as "the rough demographic division of US population". You have to distinguish the rather well-defined notion of "race" within the US with the much more fuzzy notion of "race" if you attempt to apply it worldwide.
I do not accept this topic as "pseudoscience" just because of a source embraced by Sizzle_Flambé says "pseudoscience". There is pseudoscience (as in, Civilization One) and there is the PC reflex to stifle any debate on race from the outset by calling pseudoscience. It isn't pseudoscience to do studies on IQ tests and US demographics. It is pseudoscience to try and sell the results you get out of that for anything else than they are. Calling an area of study pseudoscience because you feel uncomfortable about it or about what results it might turn out isn't intellectually honest. It is apparently taboo or unthinkable to find a significant difference, however slender, in the distribution of IQ between racial groups. I do not know if there is such a difference, but I object emphatically to attempts attack such studies on anything other than scholarly grounds. Some people do not like to see images of The Prophet. Others do not like to see debate on differences between racial groups. To both I say WP:NOTCENSORED. If it's notable, Wikipedia will carry it for what it is worth. -- dab (𒁳) 21:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Fruitarianism, a human, all-fruit diet. Currently growing by leaps and bounds. Lots of undue weight and questionable sources are joining the mix. - SummerPhD ( talk) 21:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I have created Talk:Fruitarianism#Request for Comment: Revert to version of September 30?. Looie496 ( talk) 18:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
To address these issues, so 'fringe' (less represented) topics are not to be covered at Wikipedia. Authors who advocated fruitarianism are linked, just like any group of other authors, or scientists, or composers etc. Sources have been provided wherever possible. Regarding reverting the fruitarian article, quotations from authors who wrote about this subject is highly noteable as are the other contribituons. If you feel otherwise, revert the article, and leave the article one-sided. OK, Ehret has not had timeless influence even though his books have been in print for over 90 years and even though other authors have referred to him in their books throughout the decades. The autobiography is by an Anita Bauer, if she existed, however the book does not confirm if she really did exist. Regarding the claims surrounding white blood cells as mucus, these claims are made by Ehret and Thomas Powell in their books, and corroborated by Corwn Samuel West and others. Just because conventional science may not support this is not a reason to avoid chronicling what others have thought in history. There were no '40 edits to fix one comma'. Content takes time to add. All changes, cleanup, notability and citation issues can be discussed at the talk pages. Improvement of content, sources and quotes is important. Perhaps some of you could make contribution, in addition to your deletions. Zanze123 ( talk) 18:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding "These articles are almost exclusively cited to self-published books and websites, and largely consist of glowing praise for the subjects of the article." (Skinwalker) in fact the articles are cited to secondary sources as required. If you wish to critique sources cited, or the subjects of the articles, use the talk pages, or make contributions to the articles citing secondary sources accordingly, rather than just deleting entire sections without giving any reasons, or discussing on the talk pages, as you did. Zanze123 ( talk) 19:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
The claim about Arnold Ehret's 'assassination' was already in the article. I later quoted from the published article What ever happened to Arnold Ehret by Sylvia Saltman in Vegetarian World Magazine (1977), which refuted the claim, in order to show both sides. Regarding 'self-published' books, books lacking publishers may have been commercially published, the name of the publishers, to be confirmed, just like any other verification. If Wiki regards a topic as 'fringe', labelling it 'fringe' would benefit the reader. If academic sources are the most important criteria when providing references, make some relevant contributions to the Fruitarian article. Zanze123 ( talk) 20:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
There are 2 main academic sources in the article which favour fruitarianism - 1 about Alan Walker, 1 from a South African journal (whilst there is a whole section Nutritional Concerns with many more than 2 academic sources critical of fruitarianism). Yet according to everyone above, the article should be reverted to exclude the ones in favour whilst keeping those critical of fruitarianism. How then is the article balanced (a concern voiced above) if only academic sources which critique the diet are permitted at the article. I fully support SummerPhD's point that an article of this nature warrants more academic sources than non-academic sources, but presenting both sides. There is a lack of sources available, but how many of you against this article have ever contributed anything besides deletions? When academic sources provided, they are immediately dismissed unless the discredit fruitarianism. Further, not all aspects of this article warrrant academic sources - such as the different possible fruitarian diets. That is an aspect central to the subject matter, but is not an academic matter but a cultural one. Yet you are all above in favour of deleting that too. With regard to the point above about quote farm, the quotes should all be removed, and used if and where appropriate for citation purposes. In its place should be a section called Advocates, and another section called Critics, briefly mentioning those such as in the quotes to be removed. To revert this article to the September version is to erode all other changes, without giving specific reasons in each case for doing so. Rather than just deleting content, provide reasons for deleting or amending individual points on the talk page, - which only SummerPhD has done. If you feel that this article does not deserve to exist (because as it sounds to me, you disagree with it, or object to it, or because you perceive it to be fringe and therefore automatically unscientific - Galileo was also considered fringe), then it should be merged with another article as a subsection of veganism or rawfoodism etc. Zanze123 ( talk) 23:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I fully agree with your point about the need for notability. What is Wiki's requirement? You suggest popular advocates of fruitarianism and rawfoodism are not relevant, because they are popular among fruitarians (and rawfoodists), rather than other groups. They are popular and thus noteable in the dietary movements they relate to. They are thus noteable in general in relation to the dietary topics they relate to. If you feel they are not, then please delete all advocates of all diets (vegan, vegetarian, rawfood etc), at the relevant listings on the same basis, i.e. that they are only generally noteable within the dietary group they relate to, but not to society in general. If you can show that they are not noteable in general, then delete the entire articles including all such existing articles on similar advocates of specific diets, on the same basis. Citing advocates of fruitarianism and verifying their dietary beliefs with quotes from their commercially published books, and secondary source articles about those advocates, is not hagiographical. However, if you feel there is hagiographical content, highlight it for at the talk pages for discussion, amendment and or removal. Since there is a lack of academic published research, chronicling what authors thought in history, is not irrelevant to the subject of the fruitarian article. Zanze123 ( talk) 01:31, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
So the history of Western fruitarian thought, has no basis in the article. If so, then the history of vegan thought, vegetarian thought, rawfoodist thought etc, and all such advocates, should be removed from the respective articles. Regarding notable fruitarians and reliable sources, the problem there is that this enables no fruitarians to be listed as notable and virtually no reliable sources in favor of fruitarianism to be included, not because there are not reliable sources, or notable fruitarians, but because perceptions of what is notable and reliable will vary, as will knowledge of notable fruitarians and reliable sources. You can say there are no reliable sources even if there are, or dismiss those which exist e.g. Alan Walker, South African journal etc. Dismissing the B12, protein, defficiency and mucus topics by presenting only reliable academic sources without contrasting that with the counter-belief and accompanying sources, does not make for a balanced article. Vanity press and 'some guy's website' are not relevant to articles. As for 'esoteric publishers', the publishers of the Bible could be classified as 'esoteric' depending on your belief, so this point makes no sense. To suggest that only self-published sources have 'real-depth' makes no sense. The New York Times article on Alan Walker was not self-published. The South Africa journal was not self-published. There are other examples of non-self published research on the topics of fruitarianism, B12, protein, mucus, vitamins, defficiencies, both for and in favour, by academia, science and M.D.s. For example: Gabriel Cousens is an M.D. not an N.D. hence the quote which was included, yet this has been classified as 'pseudo-scientific' and was deleted without discussion. In reality, anything which is in favor of fruitarianism shall be deemed unscientific, unreliable and unnotable so that the article can be slanted according to conventional beliefs rather than be balanced in presentation. Zanze123 ( talk) 01:52, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree with your point about media sources. For example at Ann Wigmore and Viktoras Kulvinskas, I added media sources, and the same can be done for Fruitarianism. That is no reason not to chronicle what authors and scientists mentioned fruitarianism (and its related topics e.g. protein metabolism) in the last 150 years. Thomas Powell, Corwyn Samuel West, Ragnar Berg, Louis Pasteur and other doctors, chemists and scientists have written about these subjects. You may not know about their work, or may not agree with it, but that is not a reason to automatically dismiss them and their findings. As for diets which sound similar to fruitarianism but are not, this depends how fruitarianism is defined, which is precisely why the different definitions are relevant to the subject of this article. Zanze123 ( talk) 02:04, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
The article rawfoodism features many many different definitions. Therefore, there is no reason why the fruitarianism article should be any different. It ends when all main definitions, such as now, are included in order to be comprehensive. Or, have a biased, one-sided definition, that readers will simply laugh at, and scorn Wikipedia for being so narrow-minded. Since fruitarianism is a sub-set of veganism, there are few books only on the subject. Therefore it is not unreasonable nor irrelevant to cite books in which fruitarianism is significantly mentioned but where the book is not wholly about fruitarianism. A book about nutrition which discusses fruitarianism cannot be said to be irrelevant, for example. Zanze123 ( talk) 18:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
If the history of fruitarianism is relevant, the quoting prominent advocates of fruitarianism in history is relevant. Should an article about Thomas Edison never quote from any of Edison's published writings because although reliable, such quotes would not be independent. If so, all quotations from all figures mentioned on Wikipedia, should be deleted as being not independent. The guidelines for notability are not an editor's whim, but a group of editors who can club together in the name of 'consensus'. Balance is a synonym of neutral point of view, of course. If you believe a neutral point of view means having a greater emphasis on science, then that's not neutral, because science is only one system of thought. Even so, listing various kinds of sub-diet is not a scientific phenomenon but a cultural one. If fringe articles are not allowed, delete all fringe articles on Wiki- there seem to be several hundred thousand depending on the definition of fringe. If you refer to fringe points, or quotes, discuss them on the talk page for discussion, amendment and or removal, rather than deleting entire sections without discussion, in the name of 'neutrality' as has been happening. "We're not out to destroy the fruitarianism article" - those campaigning for the reversal of the article to September, clearly are - as then, all points in the article in support of fruitarianism e.g. Alan Walker, South African Journal, quotes by prominent fruitarians, quotes by doctors like Gabriel Cousens M.D., can be destroyed. So, if you are not out to destroy the article, don't revert it but improve it, through discussion. Enough people have commented already on the article being lacking in neutrality. First party publications can be fact checked just like any other source. Wiki is not the place for promotion. Quoting a first party or indeed third party publication does not automatically equate with promotion. But it can and often is. It depends how promotion is defined. Wikipedia is full of promotion. An article on General Electric or General Motors, is in itself a form of promotional material. Where is the 'good faith' when editors of this article have deleted entire sections without any reason or discussion, and where contributions in favor of fruitarianism are deleted is not good faith. Those who delete or campaign for deletion, don't appear to ever contribute besides deletions. Zanze123 ( talk) 18:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
When a noteable person who has written a book about fruitarianism e.g. I Live On Fruit by Essie Honiball is quoted, then it can be said that the person is fringe, and therefore the person is not notable, or the person wasn't a scientist, or it wasn't a 3rd party source. So Wiki's guidelines and the approach of editors, can be circular so that nothing aside from science (1 system), is ever included. That is not neutrality. That is mass bias to 1 system of thought based on the artificialistic fallacy. Zanze123 ( talk) 18:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
A couple of articles set off some redflags for me: Multiplicative calculus and Non-Newtonian calculus. Actually, it's mostly multiplicative calculus that I am presently concerned with. User:Smithpith (also moonlighting as an IP), is (admittedly) Michael Grossman, the author of a book on so-called "non-Newtonian calculus" (essentially an obvious and fairly common idea repackaged as though it were a fancy new "non-Newtonian" idea). The articles, and their proponents, seem to have all of the hallmarks of a fringe theory. In particular, there is the question of how these articles should be categorized. (Should they be in Category:Calculus? Does that violate WP:ONEWAY?) Sławomir Biały ( talk) 02:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
A consensus needs to happen somehow. This silly nonsense has a way of creeping across the rest of our articles on basic undergraduate mathematics, and suddenly Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat starts to look relevant. Sławomir Biały ( talk) 12:05, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
There is currently a lengthy discussion (and edit war) at Sexual orientation change efforts over the inclusion of position statements by Positive Alternatives to Homosexuality. Gabbe ( talk) 22:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Another siddha who supposed lived for several hundred years before his death in 1989. Personally, I'm dubious. Article is up for WP:DYK review at this time. Mangoe ( talk) 07:14, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
A new editor is editing the article to reflect a more controversial, fringe position than has previously been maintained and agreed. Could other editors please review and respond. Verbal chat 10:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
A fairly new editor Jrgilb ( talk · contribs · logs) seems intent on reverting any indication that blood-type diets are pseudoscience and unsupported by empirical data. Your input and participation are requested at blood type and its talk page, and at blood type diet. - Nunh-huh 17:05, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
This new article, about the Belgian man thought to be comatose for years but now supposedly communicating, could use all the eyes it can get. Looie496 ( talk) 17:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Can some people please have a look at this article. Floydian ( talk · contribs) apparently WP:OWNs this page, and is editwarring to his preferred version and engaging in personal attacks on other editors on the talk page. The dispute revolves around the alt med use of colloidal silver, and using in vitro studies of silver (not colloidal necessarily, or of the alt med treatments) to support the alt med section. A summary of the alt med evidence base is also being removed from the lead. More eyes and opinions required, I find it hard to engage with the level of vitriol directed at othhr editor though. Verbal chat 17:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I am another editor that has been a regular editor on the colloidal silver article. Recently, a bunch of editors, including Verbal, have descended on the article, reverting sourced information with no discussion about the reverts. I guess Verbal felt that putting NPOV on the comment was good enough and how dare Floydian question that. I am not surprised that Floydian has reverted much of the "fly by edits", and am surprised that he has kept his cool as well as he has. stmrlbs| talk 01:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
After a preceding long discussion at the ANI here, we were actually able to have a constructive discussion at the article and made some progress, however, then an user called Wdford joined the discussion. Now, you might be wondering, what this editor is doing there, and I am wondering that, too. But that question aside, if we concentrate on only this article: Wdford is not able to approach the discussion with the required diligence. In the first of his series of edits, here, Wdford added a statement based on a fringe source, quote:
I've repeatedly tried to explain to him, which this is highly problematic, my last long posting on this is here. Even Dhawker, who was banned from the article, advised Wdford on this on his talk page using his sock-puppet account, quote: "Trust me. You will never get the Immunogenics reference or anything remotely like it included in the article. This is a medical article so any references will undergo extreme scrutiny from many editors who haven't even commented yet." here. That, in turn, made it really easy to identify "Beaupoint" as a sockpuppet of DHawker, but if appears that Wdford does not want to accept that advise. He wrote today, that I would " even now disputes the fact that the IRF [Immunogenics research foundation] people are scientists, although their staff is packed with highly qualified specialists – whose only failing is that they don’t agree with Zara. I have nonetheless offered to remove this sentence in the spirit of compromise, ..." here. Certainly, the guideline * wp:fringe* is not about "compromise". Wdford has to acknowledge that people like those from the "Immunogenic Research Foundation" are not scientists, and that the addition of such material as 'science' to Wikipedia is not allowed, regardless of whether a editor demands it to be removed in a specific case or not. I don't actually think that Wdford will acknowledge that - ever. So, if we want to save the article from being used as a playground by fringe advocates (or people who are simply unable to distinguish between the fringe and the scientific view), each of Wdfords edits must come under close scrutiny. Considering what he has written, is is rather likely that he will continue with problematic edits as soon as the full protection expires, which is in 3 hours. I would take an immediate look then myself, but I've already spent the last night writing the request for checkuser concerning DHawker, and I might actually want to get some sleep tonight. Zara1709 ( talk) 22:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Super chimney appears to be a crackpot variation of solar updraft tower, the latter being a legitimate solar power scheme which at least has been tested in a pilot plant. It has been suggested to merge the former into the latter, but perhaps an AFD is in order. Mangoe ( talk) 03:13, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Magnet therapy ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is in need of a little TLC from WP:MEDRS and WP:VALID. Please do not simply revert back to the last version by me, as some of the new editor's material is good. On the other foot, magnets do not have different mood-altering effects depending on which pole is facing your susceptibility chakra, MRI and TCMS are off-topic, and there is plenty of placebo effect in animal studies. - 2/0 ( cont.) 19:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
This article is full of non notable texts and unsourced statements. Please add to your watch list and contribute to discussion on the talk page. Verbal chat 11:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
And here I was expecting to see: Archives of TV Guide; How to Irrigate Your Farm; Early Maps of Mars; Digging Across Panama!; A Little Swim to Calais; The Suez Project; By Train from London to Paris?; Faces of Age; A Dentist's Manual to the Treatment of Caries; my diary; yours too. — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 07:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Violation of WP:WEIGHT and WP:ONEWAY. ScienceApologist ( talk) 03:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
WP:WEIGHT isn't really appropriate here, because the Dayanandian nonsense is really the entire reason for the topic's notability. -- dab (𒁳) 17:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Full of original research including original synthesis between mythology and this UFOlogical fantasy. ScienceApologist ( talk) 03:20, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Long list of phenomena ("Unseen forces lift and hurl a brick across a room" etc.) "captured" on a reality TV show, all of it being taken at face value. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 00:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
This article needs to be fixed. I have left a message on the talk page. An IP has done some whitewashing and uses primary sources to promote this pseudoscience. -- Brangifer ( talk) 07:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I came across Whole body vibration just now. Seems pretty fringey. Sławomir Biały ( talk) 14:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Is this proper linguistics or just something made up? dab, you would know. It needs to be merged with Dacian language, but what to keep? Anything? Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is there a section on "data" here that does not include any reference to actual scientific data? ScienceApologist ( talk) 16:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
While I don't subscribe to "burn all infoboxes", this particular one should definitely be burned with extreme prejudice. -- dab (𒁳) 15:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
This trance medium's article is in an unbelievably poor. Needs much attention and trimming to bring it to any kind of reasonable status. Could people please lend a hand. Problems include poor sourcing, very poor and non-neutral writing, length, essay like writing, and overuse of quotes. Possible solution is stubbing and starting over, as it is a huge mess. Verbal chat 15:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Went to see 2012 last night, and witnessed cities collapsing into bottomless black empty gulfs while nearby supervolcanoes vomit endless magma and rock and ash into the skies to start a new Ice Age, and the superheated Earth's crust melts as floods cover the Himalayas, and 27 days later the survivors see sunny blue skies with pretty white clouds and a bright future ahead for them... WTF? And then I come back and look at the incredible stuff here that credulous people manage to cram down their credulators, and I think about giving up on reason. But I forget how the creed of unreason is supposed to run: is it " Everything is True, Nothing is Forbidden!" — or is it " Nothing is True, Everything is Forbidden!" — or should I just stick with the old traditional "Ia! Ia! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!" for the ease of memorization? — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 22:43, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
So I'm ditchin' and hitchin' a ride
I got my Sitchin guide
He's my Nibiru guru...
Planet X Marks the Spot!
— Doctor Steel — Sizzle Flambé ( ☎/ ✍) 10:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
An IP has done a whitewashing job at Plasma cosmology.
I recommend reverting to the previous version that has more information.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 18:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I can't make sense of the demands from newly-returned user:Bharatveer on Talk:Max_Müller. Well, I can guess -- I suspect some Hindutva website(s) are circulating fringe assertions. Paul B ( talk) 13:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Wasn't Bharatveer banned? If he wasn't, we're just looking at more wasted time, this is a hardcore, dyed-in-the-wool ideologist with no interest in mere facts. -- dab (𒁳) 15:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Please see Bharatveer's recent edits on Talk:Romila Thapar, which seem to share the same ideological space with his edits at Talk:Max_Müller. --Akhilleus ( talk) 18:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
He has brought this up in June 2008,
which was answered adequately by Akhilleus ( talk · contribs),
There is nothing to see here. We aren't calling people Marxists who state that they aren't Marxists and that they are insulted by the epithet. Actual Marxists embrace the label "Marxist". "Marxist" is just a label the hardcore nationalists like to tag on any Indian author who is not staunchly to the political right of Attila the Hun. -- dab (𒁳) 19:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- Bharatveer ( talk) 11:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
I am starting work on improving Wikipedia's coverage of telepathy, parapsychology etc. There doesn't appear to be much about selection bias or 'file drawer' effect or on statistics generally in the articles I have seen. Statistics is very important in reporting this stuff as, in the total absence of any known mechanism to explain these reported phenomena, deviation from chance is the only real evidence. Is there any material I haven't seen yet? I have looked at the main articles, which aren't very good. I.e. they talk about 'scepticism', when what they should be talking about is whether there exists any sort of evidence at all. Also about fraud and so on. Speaking of which, why doesn't the article about Joseph Banks Rhine mention the fraud of Walter Levy http://www.answers.com/topic/jr-walter-j-levy? Is this because of a biographical concern? Is Wikipedia allowed to report fraud where the subject may be living? Thanks Rupert of the New Age ( talk) 11:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
More eyes needed on the Colorpuncture article. Edit warring, addition of unsourced content, socking, etc.. -- Brangifer ( talk) 19:56, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Our article on the Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident could probably use some watchful eyes. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 00:14, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
More eyes again, please, so that those who have been involved since the original post .... don't fall out between themselves. A very frustrating article to work on. I may need to withdraw from it. Itsmejudith ( talk) 00:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Pondicherry interpretation - what is this? Is it genuine? is the man with the red link really qualified? I Googled and he does have a Physics degree. Rupert of the New Age ( talk) 11:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
just what the world needed -- a Sri Aurobindo interpretation of quantum mechanics. -- dab (𒁳) 19:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Ujm ( talk · contribs) is the author, writing about his own work, referring to himself in the 3rd person. Reminds me of David Rohl. I doubt we can keep this article. dab (𒁳) 19:35, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I also find he is a bona fide physicist, but by all appearances he is also, if you excuse my Klatchian, full of himself, or else he wouldn't give a bunch of articles written by himself the grandiose title of "Pondicherry interpretation" (implying that we have "Pondicherry" answering "Copenhagen"). He also feels called to publishing snippets of personal emails as "endorsements" [26], and of course he feels called to write extensive articles about his own work on Wikipedia.
This is still about a series of bona fide physics papers. I haven't plodded through them enough to grasp the issue, but it's mostly about Mohrhoff publishing a flurry of papers "explaining" the measurment problem (although, in spite of all the "to be is to be measured" I have yet to catch him explaining what he thinks a 'measurment' is, the Gretchenfrage of qm interpretations) and two papers by other authors which grant that Mohrhoff's ideas are interesting but which at the same time point to formal flaws. The question is, does this meet our inclusion criteria? -- dab (𒁳) 12:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I came across this article during New Page patrol and it appears to simply be an unsourced conspiracy theory. I'm tempted to send it to AfD, but I have virtually no history in dealing with fringe theories on Wikipedia. Could someone more knowledgeable take a look and advise the best way to proceed? -- Jezebel'sPonyo shhh 15:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I think this may be viral marketing for an upcoming film or something. [27] -- dab (𒁳) 16:13, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Just a head's up about the edits of Ntsukunyane Mphanya ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is adding material about the theories of one Dr. Bernard Leeman. (This appears to be all Ntsukunyane Mphanya is adding to Wikipedia.) Yes, Leeman has a Ph.D., & last I checked he is a member of the faculty of some accredited university (IIRC, in Brunei). However, the man's field of study is political science -- he was an armed activist in South Africa -- & he has published an book of dubious value which incorporates a number of other fringe theories in an Afrocentric framework. These edits have been popping up in articles relating to Biblical studies, Ethiopian culture, & other tangentially-related articles. (I've left the material in Kebra Negast only because I have encountered a lot of difficulty in finding works which actually discuss this important work, rather than mention it in passing, or in summarizing Ethiopian history/culture, & Dr. Leeman's work has led me to the only monograph I've found written solely on the Kebra Negast.) So far, I have been reverting these additions based on POV-pushing & undue weight. -- llywrch ( talk) 19:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Moreschi, that's quite interesting that Ben-Jochannan claimed to have been born in Gondar in 1918. At the time Gondar was, if I may say, very isolated from the rest of the world, & hardly the place the average Puerto Rican of any faith would find his/her way to -- it was difficult enough for credentialed representatives (i.e., legates, ambassadors, etc.) of a major power to get there. -- llywrch ( talk) 00:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Editor still active, complaining about censorship at [ [38]]. Dougweller ( talk) 12:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
And he left an unsigned comment at Talk:Dʿmt claiming that Dr Nadia Durrani is quoted as stating one thing in her publication, yet in email to him claims she believes the opposite. Not that her book is being misquoted, or that she changed her conclusions in a later publication. He also claimed that "the matter has now been taken to the arbitrators with copies of Dr Nadia Durrani’s emails". (I'm scratching my head over his complaint: why doesn't he just provide the evidence requested?) -- llywrch ( talk) 06:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Someone has recently revised the Great Year article to emphasize that the "Great Year" and the "Platonic Year" are two different things. Would this constitute a fringe theory? As far as I can tell, the scholarly consensus is that the "Great Year" and the "Platonic Year" refer to the same thing. - 38.112.107.3 ( talk) 00:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
the article needs cleanup, both before and after the anon's edit, so there is little point in reverting. Somebody needs to sit down and do it properly. -- dab (𒁳) 09:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
For a long time, the first was a placeholder redirect to the second. I've now removed the redirect and started an article. Hopefully from now on no one wil be misled by following links to Vedic astrology. Meanwhile, unfortunately, gremlins and entropy have already brought their usual horrors to Jyotiṣa, the erstwhile redirect/link target. Back in July someone went to town with the article and, besides eliminating all but one source of references, also thoughtfully deleted all of the historical and contemporary information that Dab and I had collected (as part of a cleanup effort a while back) and which had a secondary aim of hopefully warning off the "vedic" enthusiasts. The article is now shorn of all references except to the works of someone who is practically unknown to Google scholar (basically, a David Frawley clone.) And, sure enough, with nothing to warn against it, in the fullness of time the "vedic" bogey has been written into the lede. It's possible that any attempt to restore sanity to the article may be resisted, considering statements such as this and this. rudra ( talk) 03:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't see why you didn't just revert to the last good version. This was quite obviously an attack on the article's integrity, and we have enough policies to smack people with who make such attempts. It is, however, disturbing that nobody noticed the attack for almost half a year. It appears that other than Rudrasharman and myself, nobody is watching this article, and when the two of us aren't looking, the gremlins are free to just tear it down yet again. -- dab (𒁳) 12:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I frankly don't care whether this was malice or cluelessness, as our reaction is going to be the same either way. I like your expression of "gremlins and entropy" . -- it's irrelevant whether it was a gremlin (India must be brimfull of these) or just entropy. The Jyotisha article is a troll magnet because it combines the "astrology" troublespot with the "Hindu patriotism" one. -- dab (𒁳) 13:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Saw it on DYK. Cites two sources, some synth issues with one of the references. I get a bit nervous about any article purporting to be scientific that has both a very limited range of sources 'and' WP:SYNTH issues of any sort so I thought I'd mention it.
Perhaps a cosmology specialist can take a look and, if legitimate, expand. Simonm223 ( talk) 17:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
the subject is certainly notabe enough, the question is, do we need a separate article under this heading? What this is, effectively, is one angle on Fermi's paradox, and I see no reason to split it off its main article. -- dab (𒁳) 13:12, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
I have started a new talk page section about why he's notable. This article is in desperate need of coverage of his fringe POV. The article reads more like a hagiography. -- Brangifer ( talk) 01:05, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mileva_Mari%C4%87
The following amended sentence was posted on the Mileva Maric page on 19 December 2009:
The full context is as follows:
Reference 33 cites Margarete Maurer, Senta Troemel-Ploetz and Evan Harris Walker. However, none of these are historians of physics, historians of science, or indeed historians at all.
Margarete Maurer is a lecturer for theoretical aspects in the Life Sciences at the universities of Innsbruck and Vienna, especially "nature", "gender" and philosophy/sociology of science. http://www.epws.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=283&Itemid=4652
Senta Troemel-Ploetz is a linguist and writer on feminist themes. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senta_Tr%C3%B6mel-Pl%C3%B6tz
Evan Harris Walker was a physicist, but at the time when he wrote about Maric and Einstein he was the Director of the Walker Cancer Research Institute which he founded. He also published books on the nature of consciousness. http://www.pdonovan.com/blog_face_reviews/evan_walker.php
I therefore propose that the sentence in question be amended to:
[Open to suggestions]
Esterson ( talk) 09:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
classic fringe material. This theory has been discussed and found lacking merit. There are just a few die-hard feminists who keep assuming there must be a conspiracy. It's a question of WP:DUE. -- dab (𒁳) 13:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
There has been a big Arbcom case on this. I've looked it over again and still see big issues with information metabolism; if anything, it's worse than ever. I've asked arbcom for comment about my editing in the matter, since I am technically an interested party, but I would invite others to take another look. Mangoe ( talk) 15:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Relating to an unresponded to discussion an IP editor has added the Republic of China to the Government in exile article. Past consensus has been that the Republic of China is not in exile, as the IP editor has claimed; therefore, without new consensus or references provided, the content was removed from the article. Relevant articles relating to this topic are Political status of Taiwan, Legal status of Taiwan, and Treaty of Taipei. This is a highly contentious topic, and as such WP:NEU clearly applies, and discussion should attempt to remain civil.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 23:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Did you know that the articles associated with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and Keirsey Temperament Sorter identify historical figures and living humans as belonging to various archetypes and personality types as intuited by "experts" (who might be classified as "true believers")? Since these are simply the opinions of pseudoscientists and not facts, I recommend either a hefty couching of these lists or an outright removal. They are extremely misleading to the casual reader and also possibly BLP violations.
Did you know that Kristi Yamaguchi is an ISFJ or that Sandra Day O'Connor is a Supervisor (Role Variant)? No? I bet they didn't either.
Please help clean up this walled garden.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 03:38, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
This personality type material quite apparently has the tendency to attract cruft. Remember the circus surrounding Socionics we had a whileback. We just need to insist stuff is referenced closely, and prevent articles from sprawling out into sub-articles. It's not a problem to have a lengthy article on each type, even with this kind of dubious sorting of historical individuals, just as long as things remain closely sourced. -- dab (𒁳) 13:08, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
2) Start applying the type to people who have not participated in a typing scheme. So, basically, my question would be this: is there a RS stating that Kristi Yamaguchi self-identifies as an ISFJ?
The funny thing about the MBTI in particular is that the authors of the program are aware that the results are not valid without conscious self-selection. So typing strangers is basically the worst sort of bad behaviour from an insider perspective. Simonm223 ( talk) 18:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Could some outside editors have a look at the discussion at Talk:Collapse of the World Trade Center#Conspiracy theory section heading, which concerns whether a fringe viewpoint should be represented in the article. Hut 8.5 21:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Creator of this masterpiece User:0XQ has also made a number of other, er, quirky edits. Paul B ( talk) 21:41, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Awesome. rudra ( talk) 11:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Another channelled text, article needs a lot of cleaning up. Dougweller ( talk) 19:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
More eyes please. There is presently an RFC about whether it was removing vandalism to delete inappropriately referenced claims that human-caused global warming is discredited. Argh! Simonm223 ( talk) 14:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
"Because those that see the apparition have to worry about keeping a security clearance, sightings are not always well publicized to coworkers, the outside world, or at all." Amazing what you can learn on Wikipedia ; - LuckyLouie ( talk) 22:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
"Washington capitol ghost cat" produces several google books entries, at least some of which directly mention this alleged phenomenon, here. I acknowledge that cannot prove, one way or another, that someone did not make up the story sometime, but it does seem to meet notability criteria. Exploring the evolution of the idea is another matter entirely. John Carter ( talk) 17:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
I reverted an edit by a named account, only to be reverted myself by an IP. [50] The lead now begins "The Angel Moroni (pronounced /m?'ro?na?/) is an angel". Dougweller ( talk) 19:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
What to do about this "new concept in human health and identity"? It is supposed to mean "distress in the face of environmental destruction". I am sure that the reaction to environmental degradation has been studied and is a notable topic. But Glenn Albrecht ( talk · contribs) pretends that by slapping a made-up portmanteau on the topic it becomes a "new concept". The man appears to be university professor at Murdoch University, Perth, which is pretty much the only reason I haven't speedied this.
The only third-party reference quoted based is critical [51] dab (𒁳) 12:41, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
google it. It does verify in assorted online blogs, magazines and glossaries. There are third party sources, as I state above the article even cites a critical one. The question is, does this suffice? The other question is, what would be "some other article that covers the concept"? If I had found one, I would just have silently merged. But our environmental degradation article is disgracefully stubby. -- dab (𒁳) 14:22, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
← Maybe I was a bit blunt, but the point is that the number of results doesn't even mean this term is notable enough to get meaningful references. Has anyone delved into the Google Scholar results to see if there's more than a passing mention to the term in those 30 hits? — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 14:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
This AP article covers many subjects relevant to articles about alternative medicine:
Brangifer ( talk) 20:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Place4us ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
A quick glance at some of the user's edits seem a bit odd, and far beyond a typical new account. This edit [52] and this one [53] just feel odd to me. Ravensfire ( talk) 03:16, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Could a few regulars familiar with the complementary and alternative medicine topic area look over Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Regulated professional trade publication's reliability and provide some feedback? It would be sincerely appreciated. Thanks! Vassyana ( talk) 07:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
This needs some attention. Currently it gives significant coverage to the theory milk with predominantly A1 β-casein is harmful without making it clear most independent reviews have found the evidence is too weak to support the conclusion e.g. http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/policy-law/projects/a1-a2-milk/ Nil Einne ( talk) 08:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
A classic WP:FRINGE article, notability is arguable because there have been TV shows about it and what not, but at the same time the thing has zero credibility in academia. But in this case we have User:David Rohl, the author himself, keeping a tight watch on the topic to ensure it is presented as favourably as at all possible. Same problem at the David Rohl bio article. Rohl is touted as an "Egyptologist" because he once got a university degree in that field. He neither has any academic affiliatin, nor does he have a PhD, so I think the label (and the category) aren't appropriate without qualification. -- dab (𒁳) 10:55, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
{undent} Not to mention how defensive Rohl is... it makes for an uncomfortable editing environment. He doesn't want to admit he has a CoI! Simonm223 ( talk) 19:24, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Just saw a plea at WikiProject Rational Skepticism for eyes on both of these articles. The AAH one has been protected for 2 weeks, the other is unprotected. My experience of this debate elsewhere has not been pleasant. Dougweller ( talk) 16:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)