This page is not a forum for general discussion about Jinn. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Jinn at the Reference desk. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Recently, the Categroy "Quranic words and phrases" were added. Since the catergory is only about the term, but not about the concept, the category was removed again. However, I think it might make sense toa dd this category, given this specific section of the article:
"In Quranic interpretation, the term jinn can be used in two different ways: as invisible beings, considered to be, along with humans, thaqalān (accountable for their deeds), created out of "fire and air" (Arabic: مَارِجٍ مِن نَّار, mārijin min nār). as the opposite of al-Ins (something in shape) referring to any object that cannot be detected by human sensory organs, including angels, devils, and the interior of human beings."
This article also covers the meaning of this term, not only the concept, although the main focus is on the concept. But since Islamic exegesis is inconsistent in using the term as a concept on its own and as a term with various meanings, we might add the category "Quranic words and phrases". VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 12:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
The article itself is pretty long, and a large part seems to be the popular Culture section. There is muhc literature analyzing jinn as a motif in Horror Movies. We have a Genii in Popular Culture article but mostly featuring "Western" tropes of the "Genie in the Bottle". Do you think there should be an article about jinn in Horror Movies? I would suggest that we leave only an outline on jinn in Horror movies, a few references to confirm jinn d feature as a Horror Trope in modern times, and then move most details to the new article. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 20:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
What do other editors of this article think about merging parts of theology and exegesis, and folkoric content? Many content is written like a list of depictions of jinn from different sources, but could be changed into one prose text. Similarly, theology and exegesis contain double content such as the position of the Asharis about jinn-possession. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 17:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Currently if you look at the main image, it says it is a jinn, which you can tell because, as the caption claims anyway, it has hooves, which is seemingly the only determining factor of whether something is a jinn or not? But if you click on that image, however, it says it is a div. Div are described as having tusks like a boar, which this image does. Divs are not jinn, so one of those pages is clearly incorrect. But the caption says it is a jinn, because hooves! Yet if you click on the red jinn image on the same page, you get a jinn without hooves. Can someone who knows these things do something to fix this? 2601:840:8080:4B10:6D5B:B488:A666:9E21 ( talk) 00:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
@ TheEagle107: here we go again. Please make yourself familar with the discussion and respond o the objection before adding reverted edits over and over again.
@
Skyerise:
I recently
enlarged some images of jinn. These were
mostly reverted by
Skyerise as "
oversized" or because "
only lead image should be manually enlarged". I realize that if Skyrise is opposed to my changes then there is no consensus for them, but for the record they were enlarged because at least on the settings for most laptops or phones they were small, cramped, hard to see. It's not as though space is limited and larger images squeeze out text. --
Louis P. Boog (
talk) 01:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
@
VenusFeuerFalle:
I've made two attempts to include mention of belief in jinn being considered a necessary part of belief in Islam according to some scholars. Both were completely reverted by
VenusFeuerFalle, who's reverted pretty much every edit I've made to Islamic articles in the last week or so. Below is what happened, and my case against the reverts.
The first (somewhat clumsy) attempt in the lede
VenusFeuerFalle reverted this with the edit summary:
The second attempt was with a much shorter mention in the lede
reverted with the edit summary:
I also added text in the Exegesis section of the article
reverted with the edit summary
reverted with the edit summary:
The one sentence I put in the lede is a summary of the what is in the articles Exegesis section. Jinn are mentioned 29 or so times in the Quran. They have a surah named after them. Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Hazm, Abul A'la Maududi, and others seem to think they are an Islamic concept. They are major figures in Islam.
If a "dude" (
Nasr Abu Zayd) is
threated with death for apostasy (in part) because he didn't believe in jinn (he also didn't believe in slavery),
and if belief in his apostasy in his country (Egypt) is so widespread that even one of the police officers guarding his house referred to him as a "kafir" when asked about him
..... wouldn't this be the very definition of not "petty"!
Another question, Does this text not belong in
Exegesis? (where the issue of belief in jinn being a necessary part of Iman was raised)? OK, but it should be moved, not deleted.
Maududi has been called "the most influential" of the contemporary Islamic revivalist scholars (Hassan, M Kamal (July–October 2003).
"he Influence of Mawdudi's Thought on Muslims in Southeast Asia: A Brief Survey". The Muslim World. 93 (3/4): 429. Retrieved 14 March 2024.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: date format (
link))
As far as exegesis goes, he is the author of a 6-volume translation and commentary of the Qur'an. Isn't wikipedia supposed to be based on reliable sources and not editor's opinions on who is an "authority"?
What is this text doing in a section on
Exegesis, you might ask. Well, what is discussion of whether the majority of Muslim scholars think "that jinn can possess individuals" doing there? Is that found in tafsir?
I specifically stated "(at least according to Amira El-Zein)". She was the source (she's the author of a book on Jinn), and stated in her book "one can't be a Muslim if he/she doesn't have faith in their [the jinns'] existence because they are mentioned in the Qur'an and the prophetic tradition." I made a point of toning down her contention a bit by saying you can't be a good Muslim, suggesting disbelievers in jinn were being lax rather than apostates. -- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 15:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
It seems that several different pieces of content are under dispute here, but with the way this thread is scattered with lengthy quotes and subsections makes it difficult to understand. Lacking a clear, succinct description of exactly what the disputes are, I can only weigh in from my impressions. Descriptions about what is an is not accepted orthodoxy in a religion as widespread and varied as Islam must be very carefully qualified with attribution and consideration to due weight. It appears to me (knowing very little) that Jinn being an "essential" feature of Islam is closer to a fringe view than a mainstream position, so in that sense I lean toward VenusFeuerFalle's positions. If that position is indeed fringe, that doesn't totally rule out including it, but it means the information must be carefully and conservatively presented, and probably doesn't belong in the lede. That said, VenusFeuerFalle I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language, as edit summaries like this seem unnecessarily combative to me. If my input doesn't help reach a resolution here, I suggest raising this at WikiProject Islam where subject matter experts may be able to weigh in. Cheers - StereoFolic ( talk) 23:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
Thanks for the advise. I prioritize civil language and kind words. However, this specific user appears since about 2 years frequently after I edited an article, makes some rather disruptive edits, and then leaves the article. Some of these disruptions are basic formats such as using ' ; ' instead of ' == ' for headers. In the beginning I cleaned up after them and kindly reminded them to use the proper formation, did not stoppe after a year. I left some articles completely to them after constant edit warring about nothing without any sign of cooperation, and they left them in a worse state than before and then never touched them again. I hoped that direct speech might be a better way for communication. If this does not work either, I will completely give up on them. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 22:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language
The Grand Imam of al-Azhar, Ahmad al-Tayyib said: "It is necessary to believe in the existence of jinn, because they are mentioned in the Holy Qur'an". [5] [6] [7] [8] There are numerous references to jinn in the Qur'an and Hadith (sayings of Prophet Muhammad). According to Islamic belief, jinn are real creatures. Characteristics they share with human beings are intellect and freedom to choose between right and wrong and between good and bad, but according to the Qur'an [55: 14– 15] their origin is different from that of man.
Al-Tahawi (d. 321/933) said in his celebrated work on the fundamentals of the Islamic creed: "He (i.e. the Prophet Muhammad) has been sent to all of the jinn and the entirety of humanity with truth, guidance, light, and illumination."
The Hanafi scholar Badr al-Din al-Shibli (d. 769/1368) composed a work of 140 chapters on this topic, entitled Ākām al-Marjān fi Aḥkām al-Jānn ( Arabic: آكام المرجان في أحكام الجان), which was summarized by Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti (d. 911/1505). [9] In this work there is a chapter about the existence of jinn and disagreement about them ( here or here). Badr al-Din al-Shibli said that al-Juwayni (Imam al-Haramayn) in his work al-Shamil fi Usul al-Din (The Compendium on the Principles of Religion) said: "Many philosophers, the majority of Qadariyya, and all heretics denied the existence of the shayatin (devils) and jinns.... Al-Baqillani said: Many Qadariyya affirm the existence of jinn in ancient times and deny their existence now... Imam al-Haramayn (i.e. al-Juwayni) said: ...(There is) a consensus of all scholars in the era of the Sahaba and Tabi'een on the existence of jinn and devils..." TheEagle107 ( talk) 05:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Nünlist-2015
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Queso Misterioso ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Queso Misterioso ( talk) 01:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
The issue of deletions on Belief in jinn and belief in Islam by VenusFeuerFalle can be found at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Jinn_2 -- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 16:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 02:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
for anyone interested there does not seem to be any discussion in the Jinn article talk page archives about belief in Jinn being or not being a necessary belief in Islam. ( Bookku suggested I look this up.) -- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 15:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Dispute Resolution discussion closed "due to lack of response by one editor". i.e. VenusFeuerFalle. Volunteer moderator Robert McClenon ended with this:
Closed due to lack of response by one editor. The filing editor has stated that he wants to make three edits to the article. The other editor did not reply. The filing editor should make the edits boldly. If the edits are reverted, he may follow the advice in the discussion failure essay, and may note this proceeding, or they may submit a Request for Comments,which should be neutrally worded, and preferably in three parts. I am willing to provide assistance in submitting an RFC if requested. Do not edit-war. Report disruptive editing at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
So I, the filing editor (
Louis P. Boog), made the edits
boldly
here and ...
VenusFeuerFalle, who couldn't be bothered to make a response to the Dispute resolution discussion,
reverted the edits with the summary "this was not the resolution".
My questions for the deleter @ VenusFeuerFalle:
Not really, since in Islam there is no official clergy and who is trustworthy and who is not is eventually up for the individual. Apart from this claim to be factually wrong, it is besides the point since it is against the neutral point of view policy mentioned above. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 14:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)Regarding Islamic studies, we must understand that in Islam, the opinions of great scholars hold much weight.
I would suggest adding this paragraph to the lead: "The word 'jinn' and its variants are mentioned 29 times in the Qur'an, [1] [2] and one of its chapters is even named after them. [3]" Or at least it should be mentioned in the lead that there is a whole chapter in the Qur'an that talks about the jinn. [4]
Here are some sources that might be of interest:
... These two passages provide the strongest textual verification of the existence of jinn within Islam. Belief in the existence of jinn is considered equivalent to belief in the existence of angels, one of the primary articles of faith in Islam, and consequently, to disbelieve in them would be heretical. The majority of Muslims believe jinn to be a species of spiritual beings created by God out of smokeless fire long before he created humans out of mud. God gave jinn the earth to inhabit. They are drawn to both good and evil. [5]
In Islam the existence of jinns is axiomatic: according to Muslim belief, jinns were created of fire, in contrast to the angels, who were created from light. They are considered more powerful than men, but less powerful than angels. The jinn is capable of humanly impossible tasks, and the intelligence of the jinn is considered much superior to that of humans. The belief in jinns is so strong in Muslim and Arab thought that Muslim theologians judge disbelief in jinns as heresy – except for the Mu'tazila, who dare to question their existence. [6]
The jinn are considered by some authorities to be an integral part of the Islamic faith due to their inclusion in the Quran. [7]
Jinn are an integral part of both traditional and Gnostic Islamic belief. They are referred to 25 times in the Qur'an, not counting surah 72 (“The Jinn”). [8]
The jinn are an integral part of the Muslim tradition from the Qur'an onwards and thus are inescapable even for the modernists (who often see them as internalized psychological states). [9]
... Some Muslims educated in the modern Western tradition maintain that mentions of angels and jinn in the Koran should be taken allegorically rather than literally, but they are in a small minority, and even they never quite lose their fear of the jinn. [10]
According to traditional Islamic faith, djinns were created by Allah out of smokeless fire ( Qur'an 15:27). As such, Muslims generally consider these creatures part and parcel of the living world and believe that they actively participate in the lives and social interactions of humans, as do angels and Iblis (i.e., Satan) for that matter. [11]
Jinn are supernatural entities created by God before the creation of Adam. Whereas Adam was created from clay, the jinn were created "from the fire of a scorching wind" (Q 15:27) or "from fire free of smoke" (Q 55:15). They are mentioned several times in the Qur'an as well as in numerous other genres, including sira (biography), hadith (tradition), kalam (theology), and adab (literature). Belief in their existence continues in many predominantly Islamic countries to the present day, and fascination with these creatures in the West is evidenced by their appearance in popular movies and novels. Although they feature prominently in folklore, jinn are also taken quite seriously by Muslim scholars, both medieval and modern. Like humans, jinn have free will, and although many of them were converted to Islam by the Prophet Muhammad, others despaired at the coming of the new religion. [12]
Common narratives usually portray jinns as evil or mischievous, but they can also appear to be as morally complex as human beings. Muslim scholars have taken their existence seriously, even considering the legal question of whether jinns and humans could intermarry; Mālik, foundational figure for the Māliki legal school, argued that such a marriage was not itself a violation of sacred law, but added that it seemed undesirable. One hadith scholar in the eighteenth century presented a narration whose chain of transmission included two jinn reporters. [13]
Peace. TheEagle107 ( talk) 05:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
References
It is enough evidence that the jinn exist since there is a whole Surah in the Quran that talks about the jinn. The word "jinn" was mentioned in the Quran twenty-two times. The word "Al-Jann" was mentioned seven times,
Following Bookku's suggestion that I do research in WP:RS I looked up Jinn in the wikipedia library and found material in Encyclopaedia of Islam New Edition Online (EI-2 English) I think should go in the Exegesis subsection. It seems to indicate pretty strongly that "the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted" in early Islam. I would just add parts of it to the article now but that would distract from the discussion at hand.
II. In official Islam the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted, as it is to This day, and the full consequences implied by their existence were worked out. Their legal status in all respects was discussed and fixed, and the possible relations between them and mankind, especially in questions of marriage and property, were examined. Stories of the loves of d̲j̲inn and human beings were evidently of perennial interest. The Fihrisl gives the titles of sixteen of these (308) and they appear in all the collections of short tales (cf., e.g., Dāwūd al-Anṭākī, Tazyīn al-aswāḳ , Cairo 1308, 181 ff.; al-Sarrād̲j̲, Maṣārīʿ al-ʿus̲h̲s̲h̲āḳ , Istanbul 1301, 286 ff.). There are many stories, too, of relations between saints and d̲j̲inn; cf. D. B. Macdonald, Religious attitude and life in Islam, 144 ff. A good summary of the question is given in Badr al-Dīn al-S̲h̲iblī (d. 769/1368), Ākām al-mard̲j̲ān fī aḥkām al-d̲j̲ān (Cairo 1326); see also Nöldeke’s review in ZDMG, lxiv, 439 ff. Few even of the Muʿtazila ventured to doubt the existence of ¶ d̲j̲inn, and only constructed different theories of their nature and their influence on the material world. The earlier philosophers, even al-Fārābī, tried to avoid the question by ambiguous definitions. But Ibn Sīnā, in defining the word, asserted flatly that there was no reality behind it. The later believing philosophers used subterfuges, partly exegetical and partly metaphysical. Ibn K̲h̲aldūn, for example, reckoned all references to the d̲j̲inn among the socalled mutas̲h̲ābih passages of the Ḳurʾān, the knowledge of which Allāh has reserved to himself (Ḳurʾān, III, 5). These different attitudes are excellently treated in the Dict , of techn. terms , i, 261 ff.; cf. also al-Rāzī, Mafātīḥ, lxxii.
-- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 16:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
References
here (in my Sandbox).
Includes my version and bits from
TheEagle107 --
Louis P. Boog (
talk) 19:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Note: all specific changes/proposed edits are in the blue highlight of {{talkquote| to distinguish them.
@
Bookku: notifying you first Bookku for your comments before sending general notice to all involved users. --
Louis P. Boog (
talk) 20:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
reads like a subtile thread. Given that you previously tried multiple times to add that a Muslim received death-threats for stating that jinn do not form an external reality (a position definately present in Medieval Age Islam as cited in the article), it cannot be ruled out that this is exactly what you have in mind.who "worked out" the consequences implied by their
might also suffer from a citation overdosis and some weasal words. Ask yourself, what is "official Islam"? What is the difference between "Muslim tradition" and "Muslim faith"? What does "quite seriously" mean? Bad writing might decrease the quality of an otherwise pretty decent article, which could soon meet GA or even FA standards. The prominence of jinn in Islamic theology, jurisprudence, and the Quran, is made clear right below the paragraph you want to add. WIth other words, without your addition, it is exactly the next thing the reader is gonna read. The quesiton here is, how is this repeation an improvement? VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 21:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)Jinn have been called "an integral part" of the Muslim tradition or faith, "completely accepted" in official Islam; prominently featured in folklore, but also taken "quite seriously" by both medieval and modern Muslim scholars
Muslims accept the existence of the jinn as part of their faith. [1]
The belief in jinn is very much alive in Morocco and like the belief in angels and the devil it is part of Islamic dogma. [2]
Islamic dogma lists humans as the third spiritual creature created by Allah after angels and jinn. [3]
And finally, here is an interesting article in Arabic about jinn in Islam written by one of the researchers of the Muhammadan League of Religious Scholars. Cheers! TheEagle107 ( talk) 01:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
There is a wonderful table about each day of the week and their relation to angels and jinn. However, I wonder if this is not rather something for the article Worship of heavenly bodies. In Islamic tradition, the seven planets are not consequently called jinn, but also ruhanniya (as a reference to the "spirits inhabiting the planets") and are not a reflection of genuine jinn belief, although some source do identify them as jinn. Yet, since in Arabic every "invidible being" can be jinn, the designation of "jinn" does not suffice to be significant for a jinn-article, or else it also needs to include angels and turning the focus of the article in "spirits in Islam" in general. It should be noted however, that in modern times, according to Magic and Divination in Early Islam, the seven planets are frequently identified with jinn or at least jinn-like entities. However, the concept behind that is more related to Hellenistic Planet Worship, and less to genuine Islamic (including the entire culture) jinn-beliefs.
Carboni, Stefano writes in "The Book of Surprises (Kitab al-bulhan) of The Bodleian Library.":
"In the Kitab al-bulhan a couple of images are missing in this section on the jinns and we can refer to the Ottoman copies in order to reconstruct the full series of the seven ‘Kings of the Jinns’, each one connected with a specific day of the week, an angel, a planet and a metal following many literary treatises on magic and talismans."
and
Among the extant illustrations in the Kitab al-bulhan, the ‘Red King’ (al-malik al�ahmar) is the jinn of Tuesday and here the talismanic symbols are evident both in the monotonous repetition of individual letters (in this case, the letter ‘ta’), and numbers, and in the so-called ‘spectacle symbols’ originally deriving from the Kabbalah or other mystical and magical traditions (fol. 31r). The Red King of Tuesday has a close relationship with Mars, the planet of war, and is consequently depicted as a monstrous being riding a lion while holding a sword and a severed head.
Thus, the idea of jinn-kings are int he citations linked to the planets.
An excerpt from "Saif, Liana. The Arabic influences on early modern occult philosophy.", sheds more light on that matter (and I would add this to the article Worship of heavenly bodies then):
The word used in these Arabic texts to denote spirit is ruhaniyya. In the Picatrix, which Hermann could have read in Arabic, the author explains that the knowledge of the correspon�dences of things and their astral origins is essential in order to invite the ruhaniyyat to bestow their powers into a talisman or ritual.65 But he adds that we must prepare our spirits by theurgic rituals in order to commu�nicate our will to the stars and their ruhaniyyat. 66 It is notable that in magic these ruhaniyyat tend to be endowed with more personality and a level of tangibility, in contrast with the ruhaniyyat we encounter in the context of natural philosophy and astrology. In the Picatrix we read: The ruhaniyya may appear in the spiritual world [of the magus] as a person that converses and teaches him what he desires, it may endear him to kings and sultans, tie and unravel any matter he wills [... ] and answer the caller with what he wants [... ] talismans are the most Celestial Souls and Cosmic Daemons 181 powerful choice for attracting a ruhaniyya [ ... ] and that is because the natural properties, through the ruhaniyya, can perform wondrous acts singlehandedly.
Special attention should be paid to this part though:
reconciled in the Ghaya. Peripatetic causality is used to account for the existence of occult properties in all things – minerals, plants, animals, anything used in a magical operation – which are given by the stars in the process of generation and corruption. Neoplatonism elucidates the power of signs and its impact on the soul of the operator whose knowledge of these signs enables her to organize the elements of magical practice towards a specific purpose. Furthermore, the spiritual powers mentioned in the text, especially those related to the stars, are explained as the multiplication and individuation of the Universal Soul through emanation, distancing them from traditional ‘demons’ or ‘devils’, Jinn or shayateen (Arabic: devils) as we shall see in detail in Chapter
Accordingly, I propose that the minor references within the body of the text can stay, to move the table to the proposed article. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 21:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Hello everyone! Please check out the citation number [3], which have been used several times as a reference.
ORIGINAL: (in German)
Dämonen – im Arabischen ginn genannt – werden in der islamischen Offenbarung vielfach erwähnt. Am prominentesten treten sie in Sure 72 in Erscheinung, deren Titel al-Ginn lautet. Auch weitere Verse handeln von ihnen. Der Ausdruck ginn dient in zahlreichen Sprachen des islamischen Kulturraums bis heute als Oberbegriff zur Bezeichnung von Geistern.“ In Anschluss an ihre Erwähnung im Koran haben die ginn Eingang in die spätere islamische Überlieferung gefunden. Die sunna erwähnt sie vielfach. Die relevanten Hadite sind gemäß muslimischer Auffassung derart gut belegt, dass Fälschungen ausgeschlossen werden können (tawätur al-ahbär). Man kann die Existenz der ginn nicht in Abrede stellen, ohne den Vorwurf des kufr (Unglaube) auf sich zu ziehen und aus der Gemeinschaft der Gläubigen ausgeschlossen zu werden (takfīr). Neben Koran und Prophetenworten unterstreichen zusätzliche, im Lauf der Jahrhunderte entstandene schriftliche Quellen die weit verbreitete Akzeptanz der Existenz von Dämonen in der islamischen Welt. Selbst in modernen muslimischen Gesellschaften ist der Ǧinn-Glaube tief verankert. Infolge der Migration aus dem islamischen Kulturraum lassen sich die entsprechenden Auffassungen auch im Westen zunehmend beobachten. M. Dols macht darauf aufmerksam, dass der Ǧinn-Glaube kein strikt islamisches Konzept ist. Er beinhaltet vielmehr zahllose Elemente einer Götzenverehrung, wie sie Muḥammads Gegner zur Zeit der ǧāhiliyya in Mekka praktizierten. Gemäß F. Meier integrierte der junge Islam bei seiner raschen Expansion viele heidnische Gottheiten in sein System, indem er sie zu Dämonen degradierte. Auch T. Fahd thematisierte diese Einflüsse: Im Lauf der arabischen Eroberungen kamen die in der islamischen Offenbarung teilweise dokumentierten Auffassungen zum Geisterglauben mit entsprechenden Vorstellungen aus anderen Kulturen und religiösen Bekenntnissen in Kontakt. Neben Vorstellungen aus dem Mazdaismus und dem Gnostizismus im weitesten Sinn lassen sich v. a. Elemente aus dem Judentum nachweisen.TRANSLATION: (in English), automatically translated by Google Translate.
Demons – called ginn in Arabic – are mentioned many times in Islamic revelation. They appear most prominently in Sura 72, the title of which is al-Ginn. Other verses are also about them. The term ginn still serves as a generic term to describe spirits in numerous languages of the Islamic cultural area. Following their mention in the Koran, the ginn found their way into later Islamic tradition. The sunnah mentions it many times. According to Muslim opinion, the relevant Hadith are so well documented that falsifications can be ruled out (tawätur al-ahbär). One cannot deny the existence of the ginn without incurring the accusation of kufr (disbelief) and being excluded from the community of believers (takfīr). In addition to the Koran and the words of the prophets, additional written sources that have emerged over the centuries underline the widespread acceptance of the existence of demons in the Islamic world. Even in modern Muslim societies, the Jinn belief is deeply rooted. As a result of migration from the Islamic cultural area, the corresponding views can also be increasingly observed in the West. M. Dols points out that the Jinn belief is not a strictly Islamic concept. Rather, it contains countless elements of idol worship, as practiced by Muḥammad's opponents in Mecca during the time of jahiliyya. According to F. Meier, in its rapid expansion, the young Islam integrated many pagan deities into its system by degrading them to demons. T. Fahd also discussed these influences: In the course of the Arab conquests, the views on belief in spirits, some of which were documented in Islamic revelation, came into contact with corresponding ideas from other cultures and religious beliefs. In addition to ideas from Mazdaism and Gnosticism in the broadest sense, v. a. Detecting elements from Judaism.
Tobias Nünlist, "Dämonenglaube im Islam". p. 1.
In addition, recently, I have found something interesting, which I think should be included as well in the article body. Among the achievements of the Hanafi-Sufi scholar Mustafa ibn Kamal al-Din al-Bakri (d. 1749/1162) that he took the general covenant from all the denominations of jinns, and initiated seven of the kings of the jinn. [1] [2] This is also mentioned here & here on the Arabic Wikipedia.-- TheEagle107 ( talk) 22:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
“ | are you trying to say that despite using 'Tobias Nünlist' as a substantial source in the articles, point in the above highlighted part of 'Tobias Nünlist' is not given due weight in the article | ” |
— Bookku |
Yes, exactly! 👍
“ | Your suggestion on Mustafa ibn Kamal al-Din al-Bakri (d. 1749/1162) is separate point you wish you want to be included? | ” |
— Bookku |
Yes, exactly! 👍-- TheEagle107 ( talk) 05:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Other spectacular achievements were that he took the ‛ahd al-'amm from all the tawa'if al-jinn. In his turn, al-Bakri initiated seven of the kings of the jinn.
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Jinn. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Jinn at the Reference desk. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Recently, the Categroy "Quranic words and phrases" were added. Since the catergory is only about the term, but not about the concept, the category was removed again. However, I think it might make sense toa dd this category, given this specific section of the article:
"In Quranic interpretation, the term jinn can be used in two different ways: as invisible beings, considered to be, along with humans, thaqalān (accountable for their deeds), created out of "fire and air" (Arabic: مَارِجٍ مِن نَّار, mārijin min nār). as the opposite of al-Ins (something in shape) referring to any object that cannot be detected by human sensory organs, including angels, devils, and the interior of human beings."
This article also covers the meaning of this term, not only the concept, although the main focus is on the concept. But since Islamic exegesis is inconsistent in using the term as a concept on its own and as a term with various meanings, we might add the category "Quranic words and phrases". VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 12:44, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
The article itself is pretty long, and a large part seems to be the popular Culture section. There is muhc literature analyzing jinn as a motif in Horror Movies. We have a Genii in Popular Culture article but mostly featuring "Western" tropes of the "Genie in the Bottle". Do you think there should be an article about jinn in Horror Movies? I would suggest that we leave only an outline on jinn in Horror movies, a few references to confirm jinn d feature as a Horror Trope in modern times, and then move most details to the new article. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 20:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
What do other editors of this article think about merging parts of theology and exegesis, and folkoric content? Many content is written like a list of depictions of jinn from different sources, but could be changed into one prose text. Similarly, theology and exegesis contain double content such as the position of the Asharis about jinn-possession. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 17:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Currently if you look at the main image, it says it is a jinn, which you can tell because, as the caption claims anyway, it has hooves, which is seemingly the only determining factor of whether something is a jinn or not? But if you click on that image, however, it says it is a div. Div are described as having tusks like a boar, which this image does. Divs are not jinn, so one of those pages is clearly incorrect. But the caption says it is a jinn, because hooves! Yet if you click on the red jinn image on the same page, you get a jinn without hooves. Can someone who knows these things do something to fix this? 2601:840:8080:4B10:6D5B:B488:A666:9E21 ( talk) 00:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
@ TheEagle107: here we go again. Please make yourself familar with the discussion and respond o the objection before adding reverted edits over and over again.
@
Skyerise:
I recently
enlarged some images of jinn. These were
mostly reverted by
Skyerise as "
oversized" or because "
only lead image should be manually enlarged". I realize that if Skyrise is opposed to my changes then there is no consensus for them, but for the record they were enlarged because at least on the settings for most laptops or phones they were small, cramped, hard to see. It's not as though space is limited and larger images squeeze out text. --
Louis P. Boog (
talk) 01:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
@
VenusFeuerFalle:
I've made two attempts to include mention of belief in jinn being considered a necessary part of belief in Islam according to some scholars. Both were completely reverted by
VenusFeuerFalle, who's reverted pretty much every edit I've made to Islamic articles in the last week or so. Below is what happened, and my case against the reverts.
The first (somewhat clumsy) attempt in the lede
VenusFeuerFalle reverted this with the edit summary:
The second attempt was with a much shorter mention in the lede
reverted with the edit summary:
I also added text in the Exegesis section of the article
reverted with the edit summary
reverted with the edit summary:
The one sentence I put in the lede is a summary of the what is in the articles Exegesis section. Jinn are mentioned 29 or so times in the Quran. They have a surah named after them. Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Hazm, Abul A'la Maududi, and others seem to think they are an Islamic concept. They are major figures in Islam.
If a "dude" (
Nasr Abu Zayd) is
threated with death for apostasy (in part) because he didn't believe in jinn (he also didn't believe in slavery),
and if belief in his apostasy in his country (Egypt) is so widespread that even one of the police officers guarding his house referred to him as a "kafir" when asked about him
..... wouldn't this be the very definition of not "petty"!
Another question, Does this text not belong in
Exegesis? (where the issue of belief in jinn being a necessary part of Iman was raised)? OK, but it should be moved, not deleted.
Maududi has been called "the most influential" of the contemporary Islamic revivalist scholars (Hassan, M Kamal (July–October 2003).
"he Influence of Mawdudi's Thought on Muslims in Southeast Asia: A Brief Survey". The Muslim World. 93 (3/4): 429. Retrieved 14 March 2024.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: date format (
link))
As far as exegesis goes, he is the author of a 6-volume translation and commentary of the Qur'an. Isn't wikipedia supposed to be based on reliable sources and not editor's opinions on who is an "authority"?
What is this text doing in a section on
Exegesis, you might ask. Well, what is discussion of whether the majority of Muslim scholars think "that jinn can possess individuals" doing there? Is that found in tafsir?
I specifically stated "(at least according to Amira El-Zein)". She was the source (she's the author of a book on Jinn), and stated in her book "one can't be a Muslim if he/she doesn't have faith in their [the jinns'] existence because they are mentioned in the Qur'an and the prophetic tradition." I made a point of toning down her contention a bit by saying you can't be a good Muslim, suggesting disbelievers in jinn were being lax rather than apostates. -- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 15:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
It seems that several different pieces of content are under dispute here, but with the way this thread is scattered with lengthy quotes and subsections makes it difficult to understand. Lacking a clear, succinct description of exactly what the disputes are, I can only weigh in from my impressions. Descriptions about what is an is not accepted orthodoxy in a religion as widespread and varied as Islam must be very carefully qualified with attribution and consideration to due weight. It appears to me (knowing very little) that Jinn being an "essential" feature of Islam is closer to a fringe view than a mainstream position, so in that sense I lean toward VenusFeuerFalle's positions. If that position is indeed fringe, that doesn't totally rule out including it, but it means the information must be carefully and conservatively presented, and probably doesn't belong in the lede. That said, VenusFeuerFalle I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language, as edit summaries like this seem unnecessarily combative to me. If my input doesn't help reach a resolution here, I suggest raising this at WikiProject Islam where subject matter experts may be able to weigh in. Cheers - StereoFolic ( talk) 23:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
Thanks for the advise. I prioritize civil language and kind words. However, this specific user appears since about 2 years frequently after I edited an article, makes some rather disruptive edits, and then leaves the article. Some of these disruptions are basic formats such as using ' ; ' instead of ' == ' for headers. In the beginning I cleaned up after them and kindly reminded them to use the proper formation, did not stoppe after a year. I left some articles completely to them after constant edit warring about nothing without any sign of cooperation, and they left them in a worse state than before and then never touched them again. I hoped that direct speech might be a better way for communication. If this does not work either, I will completely give up on them. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 22:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)I believe you would have better success in navigating disputes with more civil language
The Grand Imam of al-Azhar, Ahmad al-Tayyib said: "It is necessary to believe in the existence of jinn, because they are mentioned in the Holy Qur'an". [5] [6] [7] [8] There are numerous references to jinn in the Qur'an and Hadith (sayings of Prophet Muhammad). According to Islamic belief, jinn are real creatures. Characteristics they share with human beings are intellect and freedom to choose between right and wrong and between good and bad, but according to the Qur'an [55: 14– 15] their origin is different from that of man.
Al-Tahawi (d. 321/933) said in his celebrated work on the fundamentals of the Islamic creed: "He (i.e. the Prophet Muhammad) has been sent to all of the jinn and the entirety of humanity with truth, guidance, light, and illumination."
The Hanafi scholar Badr al-Din al-Shibli (d. 769/1368) composed a work of 140 chapters on this topic, entitled Ākām al-Marjān fi Aḥkām al-Jānn ( Arabic: آكام المرجان في أحكام الجان), which was summarized by Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti (d. 911/1505). [9] In this work there is a chapter about the existence of jinn and disagreement about them ( here or here). Badr al-Din al-Shibli said that al-Juwayni (Imam al-Haramayn) in his work al-Shamil fi Usul al-Din (The Compendium on the Principles of Religion) said: "Many philosophers, the majority of Qadariyya, and all heretics denied the existence of the shayatin (devils) and jinns.... Al-Baqillani said: Many Qadariyya affirm the existence of jinn in ancient times and deny their existence now... Imam al-Haramayn (i.e. al-Juwayni) said: ...(There is) a consensus of all scholars in the era of the Sahaba and Tabi'een on the existence of jinn and devils..." TheEagle107 ( talk) 05:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Nünlist-2015
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Queso Misterioso ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Queso Misterioso ( talk) 01:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
The issue of deletions on Belief in jinn and belief in Islam by VenusFeuerFalle can be found at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Jinn_2 -- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 16:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 02:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
for anyone interested there does not seem to be any discussion in the Jinn article talk page archives about belief in Jinn being or not being a necessary belief in Islam. ( Bookku suggested I look this up.) -- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 15:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Dispute Resolution discussion closed "due to lack of response by one editor". i.e. VenusFeuerFalle. Volunteer moderator Robert McClenon ended with this:
Closed due to lack of response by one editor. The filing editor has stated that he wants to make three edits to the article. The other editor did not reply. The filing editor should make the edits boldly. If the edits are reverted, he may follow the advice in the discussion failure essay, and may note this proceeding, or they may submit a Request for Comments,which should be neutrally worded, and preferably in three parts. I am willing to provide assistance in submitting an RFC if requested. Do not edit-war. Report disruptive editing at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. Robert McClenon ( talk) 01:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
So I, the filing editor (
Louis P. Boog), made the edits
boldly
here and ...
VenusFeuerFalle, who couldn't be bothered to make a response to the Dispute resolution discussion,
reverted the edits with the summary "this was not the resolution".
My questions for the deleter @ VenusFeuerFalle:
Not really, since in Islam there is no official clergy and who is trustworthy and who is not is eventually up for the individual. Apart from this claim to be factually wrong, it is besides the point since it is against the neutral point of view policy mentioned above. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 14:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)Regarding Islamic studies, we must understand that in Islam, the opinions of great scholars hold much weight.
I would suggest adding this paragraph to the lead: "The word 'jinn' and its variants are mentioned 29 times in the Qur'an, [1] [2] and one of its chapters is even named after them. [3]" Or at least it should be mentioned in the lead that there is a whole chapter in the Qur'an that talks about the jinn. [4]
Here are some sources that might be of interest:
... These two passages provide the strongest textual verification of the existence of jinn within Islam. Belief in the existence of jinn is considered equivalent to belief in the existence of angels, one of the primary articles of faith in Islam, and consequently, to disbelieve in them would be heretical. The majority of Muslims believe jinn to be a species of spiritual beings created by God out of smokeless fire long before he created humans out of mud. God gave jinn the earth to inhabit. They are drawn to both good and evil. [5]
In Islam the existence of jinns is axiomatic: according to Muslim belief, jinns were created of fire, in contrast to the angels, who were created from light. They are considered more powerful than men, but less powerful than angels. The jinn is capable of humanly impossible tasks, and the intelligence of the jinn is considered much superior to that of humans. The belief in jinns is so strong in Muslim and Arab thought that Muslim theologians judge disbelief in jinns as heresy – except for the Mu'tazila, who dare to question their existence. [6]
The jinn are considered by some authorities to be an integral part of the Islamic faith due to their inclusion in the Quran. [7]
Jinn are an integral part of both traditional and Gnostic Islamic belief. They are referred to 25 times in the Qur'an, not counting surah 72 (“The Jinn”). [8]
The jinn are an integral part of the Muslim tradition from the Qur'an onwards and thus are inescapable even for the modernists (who often see them as internalized psychological states). [9]
... Some Muslims educated in the modern Western tradition maintain that mentions of angels and jinn in the Koran should be taken allegorically rather than literally, but they are in a small minority, and even they never quite lose their fear of the jinn. [10]
According to traditional Islamic faith, djinns were created by Allah out of smokeless fire ( Qur'an 15:27). As such, Muslims generally consider these creatures part and parcel of the living world and believe that they actively participate in the lives and social interactions of humans, as do angels and Iblis (i.e., Satan) for that matter. [11]
Jinn are supernatural entities created by God before the creation of Adam. Whereas Adam was created from clay, the jinn were created "from the fire of a scorching wind" (Q 15:27) or "from fire free of smoke" (Q 55:15). They are mentioned several times in the Qur'an as well as in numerous other genres, including sira (biography), hadith (tradition), kalam (theology), and adab (literature). Belief in their existence continues in many predominantly Islamic countries to the present day, and fascination with these creatures in the West is evidenced by their appearance in popular movies and novels. Although they feature prominently in folklore, jinn are also taken quite seriously by Muslim scholars, both medieval and modern. Like humans, jinn have free will, and although many of them were converted to Islam by the Prophet Muhammad, others despaired at the coming of the new religion. [12]
Common narratives usually portray jinns as evil or mischievous, but they can also appear to be as morally complex as human beings. Muslim scholars have taken their existence seriously, even considering the legal question of whether jinns and humans could intermarry; Mālik, foundational figure for the Māliki legal school, argued that such a marriage was not itself a violation of sacred law, but added that it seemed undesirable. One hadith scholar in the eighteenth century presented a narration whose chain of transmission included two jinn reporters. [13]
Peace. TheEagle107 ( talk) 05:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
References
It is enough evidence that the jinn exist since there is a whole Surah in the Quran that talks about the jinn. The word "jinn" was mentioned in the Quran twenty-two times. The word "Al-Jann" was mentioned seven times,
Following Bookku's suggestion that I do research in WP:RS I looked up Jinn in the wikipedia library and found material in Encyclopaedia of Islam New Edition Online (EI-2 English) I think should go in the Exegesis subsection. It seems to indicate pretty strongly that "the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted" in early Islam. I would just add parts of it to the article now but that would distract from the discussion at hand.
II. In official Islam the existence of the d̲j̲inn was completely accepted, as it is to This day, and the full consequences implied by their existence were worked out. Their legal status in all respects was discussed and fixed, and the possible relations between them and mankind, especially in questions of marriage and property, were examined. Stories of the loves of d̲j̲inn and human beings were evidently of perennial interest. The Fihrisl gives the titles of sixteen of these (308) and they appear in all the collections of short tales (cf., e.g., Dāwūd al-Anṭākī, Tazyīn al-aswāḳ , Cairo 1308, 181 ff.; al-Sarrād̲j̲, Maṣārīʿ al-ʿus̲h̲s̲h̲āḳ , Istanbul 1301, 286 ff.). There are many stories, too, of relations between saints and d̲j̲inn; cf. D. B. Macdonald, Religious attitude and life in Islam, 144 ff. A good summary of the question is given in Badr al-Dīn al-S̲h̲iblī (d. 769/1368), Ākām al-mard̲j̲ān fī aḥkām al-d̲j̲ān (Cairo 1326); see also Nöldeke’s review in ZDMG, lxiv, 439 ff. Few even of the Muʿtazila ventured to doubt the existence of ¶ d̲j̲inn, and only constructed different theories of their nature and their influence on the material world. The earlier philosophers, even al-Fārābī, tried to avoid the question by ambiguous definitions. But Ibn Sīnā, in defining the word, asserted flatly that there was no reality behind it. The later believing philosophers used subterfuges, partly exegetical and partly metaphysical. Ibn K̲h̲aldūn, for example, reckoned all references to the d̲j̲inn among the socalled mutas̲h̲ābih passages of the Ḳurʾān, the knowledge of which Allāh has reserved to himself (Ḳurʾān, III, 5). These different attitudes are excellently treated in the Dict , of techn. terms , i, 261 ff.; cf. also al-Rāzī, Mafātīḥ, lxxii.
-- Louis P. Boog ( talk) 16:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
References
here (in my Sandbox).
Includes my version and bits from
TheEagle107 --
Louis P. Boog (
talk) 19:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Note: all specific changes/proposed edits are in the blue highlight of {{talkquote| to distinguish them.
@
Bookku: notifying you first Bookku for your comments before sending general notice to all involved users. --
Louis P. Boog (
talk) 20:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
reads like a subtile thread. Given that you previously tried multiple times to add that a Muslim received death-threats for stating that jinn do not form an external reality (a position definately present in Medieval Age Islam as cited in the article), it cannot be ruled out that this is exactly what you have in mind.who "worked out" the consequences implied by their
might also suffer from a citation overdosis and some weasal words. Ask yourself, what is "official Islam"? What is the difference between "Muslim tradition" and "Muslim faith"? What does "quite seriously" mean? Bad writing might decrease the quality of an otherwise pretty decent article, which could soon meet GA or even FA standards. The prominence of jinn in Islamic theology, jurisprudence, and the Quran, is made clear right below the paragraph you want to add. WIth other words, without your addition, it is exactly the next thing the reader is gonna read. The quesiton here is, how is this repeation an improvement? VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 21:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)Jinn have been called "an integral part" of the Muslim tradition or faith, "completely accepted" in official Islam; prominently featured in folklore, but also taken "quite seriously" by both medieval and modern Muslim scholars
Muslims accept the existence of the jinn as part of their faith. [1]
The belief in jinn is very much alive in Morocco and like the belief in angels and the devil it is part of Islamic dogma. [2]
Islamic dogma lists humans as the third spiritual creature created by Allah after angels and jinn. [3]
And finally, here is an interesting article in Arabic about jinn in Islam written by one of the researchers of the Muhammadan League of Religious Scholars. Cheers! TheEagle107 ( talk) 01:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
There is a wonderful table about each day of the week and their relation to angels and jinn. However, I wonder if this is not rather something for the article Worship of heavenly bodies. In Islamic tradition, the seven planets are not consequently called jinn, but also ruhanniya (as a reference to the "spirits inhabiting the planets") and are not a reflection of genuine jinn belief, although some source do identify them as jinn. Yet, since in Arabic every "invidible being" can be jinn, the designation of "jinn" does not suffice to be significant for a jinn-article, or else it also needs to include angels and turning the focus of the article in "spirits in Islam" in general. It should be noted however, that in modern times, according to Magic and Divination in Early Islam, the seven planets are frequently identified with jinn or at least jinn-like entities. However, the concept behind that is more related to Hellenistic Planet Worship, and less to genuine Islamic (including the entire culture) jinn-beliefs.
Carboni, Stefano writes in "The Book of Surprises (Kitab al-bulhan) of The Bodleian Library.":
"In the Kitab al-bulhan a couple of images are missing in this section on the jinns and we can refer to the Ottoman copies in order to reconstruct the full series of the seven ‘Kings of the Jinns’, each one connected with a specific day of the week, an angel, a planet and a metal following many literary treatises on magic and talismans."
and
Among the extant illustrations in the Kitab al-bulhan, the ‘Red King’ (al-malik al�ahmar) is the jinn of Tuesday and here the talismanic symbols are evident both in the monotonous repetition of individual letters (in this case, the letter ‘ta’), and numbers, and in the so-called ‘spectacle symbols’ originally deriving from the Kabbalah or other mystical and magical traditions (fol. 31r). The Red King of Tuesday has a close relationship with Mars, the planet of war, and is consequently depicted as a monstrous being riding a lion while holding a sword and a severed head.
Thus, the idea of jinn-kings are int he citations linked to the planets.
An excerpt from "Saif, Liana. The Arabic influences on early modern occult philosophy.", sheds more light on that matter (and I would add this to the article Worship of heavenly bodies then):
The word used in these Arabic texts to denote spirit is ruhaniyya. In the Picatrix, which Hermann could have read in Arabic, the author explains that the knowledge of the correspon�dences of things and their astral origins is essential in order to invite the ruhaniyyat to bestow their powers into a talisman or ritual.65 But he adds that we must prepare our spirits by theurgic rituals in order to commu�nicate our will to the stars and their ruhaniyyat. 66 It is notable that in magic these ruhaniyyat tend to be endowed with more personality and a level of tangibility, in contrast with the ruhaniyyat we encounter in the context of natural philosophy and astrology. In the Picatrix we read: The ruhaniyya may appear in the spiritual world [of the magus] as a person that converses and teaches him what he desires, it may endear him to kings and sultans, tie and unravel any matter he wills [... ] and answer the caller with what he wants [... ] talismans are the most Celestial Souls and Cosmic Daemons 181 powerful choice for attracting a ruhaniyya [ ... ] and that is because the natural properties, through the ruhaniyya, can perform wondrous acts singlehandedly.
Special attention should be paid to this part though:
reconciled in the Ghaya. Peripatetic causality is used to account for the existence of occult properties in all things – minerals, plants, animals, anything used in a magical operation – which are given by the stars in the process of generation and corruption. Neoplatonism elucidates the power of signs and its impact on the soul of the operator whose knowledge of these signs enables her to organize the elements of magical practice towards a specific purpose. Furthermore, the spiritual powers mentioned in the text, especially those related to the stars, are explained as the multiplication and individuation of the Universal Soul through emanation, distancing them from traditional ‘demons’ or ‘devils’, Jinn or shayateen (Arabic: devils) as we shall see in detail in Chapter
Accordingly, I propose that the minor references within the body of the text can stay, to move the table to the proposed article. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 21:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Hello everyone! Please check out the citation number [3], which have been used several times as a reference.
ORIGINAL: (in German)
Dämonen – im Arabischen ginn genannt – werden in der islamischen Offenbarung vielfach erwähnt. Am prominentesten treten sie in Sure 72 in Erscheinung, deren Titel al-Ginn lautet. Auch weitere Verse handeln von ihnen. Der Ausdruck ginn dient in zahlreichen Sprachen des islamischen Kulturraums bis heute als Oberbegriff zur Bezeichnung von Geistern.“ In Anschluss an ihre Erwähnung im Koran haben die ginn Eingang in die spätere islamische Überlieferung gefunden. Die sunna erwähnt sie vielfach. Die relevanten Hadite sind gemäß muslimischer Auffassung derart gut belegt, dass Fälschungen ausgeschlossen werden können (tawätur al-ahbär). Man kann die Existenz der ginn nicht in Abrede stellen, ohne den Vorwurf des kufr (Unglaube) auf sich zu ziehen und aus der Gemeinschaft der Gläubigen ausgeschlossen zu werden (takfīr). Neben Koran und Prophetenworten unterstreichen zusätzliche, im Lauf der Jahrhunderte entstandene schriftliche Quellen die weit verbreitete Akzeptanz der Existenz von Dämonen in der islamischen Welt. Selbst in modernen muslimischen Gesellschaften ist der Ǧinn-Glaube tief verankert. Infolge der Migration aus dem islamischen Kulturraum lassen sich die entsprechenden Auffassungen auch im Westen zunehmend beobachten. M. Dols macht darauf aufmerksam, dass der Ǧinn-Glaube kein strikt islamisches Konzept ist. Er beinhaltet vielmehr zahllose Elemente einer Götzenverehrung, wie sie Muḥammads Gegner zur Zeit der ǧāhiliyya in Mekka praktizierten. Gemäß F. Meier integrierte der junge Islam bei seiner raschen Expansion viele heidnische Gottheiten in sein System, indem er sie zu Dämonen degradierte. Auch T. Fahd thematisierte diese Einflüsse: Im Lauf der arabischen Eroberungen kamen die in der islamischen Offenbarung teilweise dokumentierten Auffassungen zum Geisterglauben mit entsprechenden Vorstellungen aus anderen Kulturen und religiösen Bekenntnissen in Kontakt. Neben Vorstellungen aus dem Mazdaismus und dem Gnostizismus im weitesten Sinn lassen sich v. a. Elemente aus dem Judentum nachweisen.TRANSLATION: (in English), automatically translated by Google Translate.
Demons – called ginn in Arabic – are mentioned many times in Islamic revelation. They appear most prominently in Sura 72, the title of which is al-Ginn. Other verses are also about them. The term ginn still serves as a generic term to describe spirits in numerous languages of the Islamic cultural area. Following their mention in the Koran, the ginn found their way into later Islamic tradition. The sunnah mentions it many times. According to Muslim opinion, the relevant Hadith are so well documented that falsifications can be ruled out (tawätur al-ahbär). One cannot deny the existence of the ginn without incurring the accusation of kufr (disbelief) and being excluded from the community of believers (takfīr). In addition to the Koran and the words of the prophets, additional written sources that have emerged over the centuries underline the widespread acceptance of the existence of demons in the Islamic world. Even in modern Muslim societies, the Jinn belief is deeply rooted. As a result of migration from the Islamic cultural area, the corresponding views can also be increasingly observed in the West. M. Dols points out that the Jinn belief is not a strictly Islamic concept. Rather, it contains countless elements of idol worship, as practiced by Muḥammad's opponents in Mecca during the time of jahiliyya. According to F. Meier, in its rapid expansion, the young Islam integrated many pagan deities into its system by degrading them to demons. T. Fahd also discussed these influences: In the course of the Arab conquests, the views on belief in spirits, some of which were documented in Islamic revelation, came into contact with corresponding ideas from other cultures and religious beliefs. In addition to ideas from Mazdaism and Gnosticism in the broadest sense, v. a. Detecting elements from Judaism.
Tobias Nünlist, "Dämonenglaube im Islam". p. 1.
In addition, recently, I have found something interesting, which I think should be included as well in the article body. Among the achievements of the Hanafi-Sufi scholar Mustafa ibn Kamal al-Din al-Bakri (d. 1749/1162) that he took the general covenant from all the denominations of jinns, and initiated seven of the kings of the jinn. [1] [2] This is also mentioned here & here on the Arabic Wikipedia.-- TheEagle107 ( talk) 22:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
“ | are you trying to say that despite using 'Tobias Nünlist' as a substantial source in the articles, point in the above highlighted part of 'Tobias Nünlist' is not given due weight in the article | ” |
— Bookku |
Yes, exactly! 👍
“ | Your suggestion on Mustafa ibn Kamal al-Din al-Bakri (d. 1749/1162) is separate point you wish you want to be included? | ” |
— Bookku |
Yes, exactly! 👍-- TheEagle107 ( talk) 05:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Other spectacular achievements were that he took the ‛ahd al-'amm from all the tawa'if al-jinn. In his turn, al-Bakri initiated seven of the kings of the jinn.