This page is for statements regarding the proposed decision, not discussion. Therefore, with the exception of arbitrators and clerks, all editors must create a section for their statement and comment only in their own section. |
This case is now closed and pages relating to it may no longer be watched
|
Target dates: Opened 6 March 2024 • Evidence closes 20 March 2024 • Workshop closes 27 March 2024 • Proposed decision to be posted by 3 April 2024
Scope: The intersection of managing conflict of interest editing with the harassment (outing) policy, in the frame of the conduct of the named parties.
Public evidence is preferred whenever possible; private evidence is allowed (arbcom-en-bwikimedia.org).
Case clerks: Firefly ( Talk) & Amortias ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Aoidh ( Talk) & Barkeep49 ( Talk) & Maxim ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
---|
|
Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Active:
Inactive:
Recused:
I had thought the committee should include a principle regarding evidence obtained from other wikimedia projects since that was a decent concern expressed during the case, even by an arbitrator during the workshop. Noah, AA Talk 18:38, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
About Proposed Remedy 1, New VRT queue established, you might want to spell out Volunteer Response Team in the first sentence of the text. Also, Barkeep49 asked for feedback, so I'll say that I think this is a good idea (and said so in my evidence). The only issue that I can think of in the proposal is whether admins, as opposed to functionaries, should be involved at all. But I think that the requirement for a "functionary-like" appointment process solves that concern to my satisfaction. One alternative that I can think of is to make ArbCom itself the body to receive reports, but I agree that ArbCom taking this on alone might be an excessive commitment. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I largely agree with Tryptofish, although both the VRT and ANPDP acronyms in remedy 1 need expanding and/or linking (a link the latter case would be particularly useful).<br/
The new queue does seem like a good idea (as I think I said on the functionaries list) and the proposed appointment process seems sensible. If the existing queue is archived it would be a good idea (if technically possible) to either auto-forward new emails to that address to the new list and/or decline them with a pointer to the new list. Alternatively, I guess the existing list could be renamed paid-en-wp-old
and the new list take it's place?
For anyone wondering, my understanding of why the existing list cannot just be broadened is that the archives include checkuser data that may not be shared with non-checkusers.
Thryduulf (
talk) 19:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Pppery: if a process for granting adminship other than RFA is implemented, all arbcom needs to do is to pass a single resolution saying that in every remedy regarding regaining the admin tools, "a successful request for adminship" or equivalent wording means either the Wikipedia:Requests for adminship process or any alternative process by which an editor may become an administrator that has community consensus. Thryduulf ( talk) 10:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Is there any evidence to support Finding of fact 3 that is stronger than the fact that Nihonjoe was employed by Aquaveo at the time of the edits? If there isn't, then this finding of fact as currently written (using the term "paid editing") is accusing Nihonjoe of breaking
WP:PAID and it should be reworded to clarify that this isn't the case. I'd suggest something simple like Nihonjoe edited Aquaveo, GMS (software), and SMS (hydrology software) without disclosing that he was employed by Aquaveo
. If you are accusing Nihonjoe of breaking
WP:PAID, then frankly the proposed sanctions
aren't severe enough.
Iffy★
Chat -- 20:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I didn't take part in the discussion (evidence phase) for two reasons: (1) I see my role more as pointing out irregularities rather than deliberating on how to fix them – we have wiser people to do that. (2) Those wiser people have already brought up many if not most of the points that were of concern to me in this saga, and did it in a much better way that I would ever do.
Here, I'll only point out that apart from editing articles while having COI, what is not mentioned is that Nihonjoe also nominated some of those articles to DYK (i.e., Main Page) – Leading Edge, Sandra Tayler, Aquaveo – which to me appears as a promotional activity qualitatively different to "minor uncontroversial edits". Does this fact have a bearing on the overall assessment? I apologise for not registering this in the evidence phase.
@ Moneytrees: I sometimes use Google Maps Street View as supporting evidence in notability-related discussions. Would you be able to confirm that that's not allowed? Cheers, — kashmīrī TALK 22:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment: By bringing up the case, I did not intend for Nihonjoe to be dragged to ARBCOM. I expected him – I prodded him gently several times – to post something along the lines of: "I'm realising that I edited a fair number of articles while having an undeclared COI – I've now learned from this mistake and won't make it again, however it would be unfair to continue serving as a bureaucrat, and so I resign my hat." I'm quite sure that would have been it, hardly anybody outside the few most active functionnaires would have noticed that resignation. Yet, Nihonjoe chose a path of half-truths and deceipt, even as his RL identity was becoming known to more and more editors. I'm sorry for Nihonjoe. It didn't have to end this way, as he is a very productive editor and experienced admin who enjoyed significant trust of the community. If the motion succeeds, I'll need to see a fundamental change in his attitude to editing before I support them in any potential RfA. Trust once shattered is not easily rebuilt. — kashmīrī TALK 19:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Finding of fact number 5 (Content of Nihonjoe’s conflict of interest editing) is giving me real "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play" vibes for lack of a better term. Even if it is technically correct that the edits were fine (I share Kashmiri's belief that putting the company you work for on the main page is not innocuous) stating so rubs me the wrong way in light of all the other findings. His participation at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Heritage_Internet_Technologies is also a concern. ~~ Jessintime ( talk) 22:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Doesn't Nihonjoe's relationship with Hemelein Publications constitute WP:PAID editing, given his relationship to that company? Levivich ( talk) 22:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
"Users who are compensated for any publicity efforts related to the subject of their Wikipedia contributions are deemed to be paid editors"). I do not think that Nihonjoe was paid for publicity efforts (or at least we haven't received sufficient evidence for that). Sdrqaz ( talk) 14:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
It seems that two (mildly inappropriate) protections happened but not any violation of editing policies, so the main problem was disclosure. This brings up a conundrum. If Nehonjoe was only an admin, this would likely result in a strong admonishment only. Maybe desysop, but at least as likely an admonishment. But Crats have a higher standard of conduct, so the admin bit seems to be getting dragged along. It is possible for Arb to remove the Crat bit, but leave the Admin bit, because Crat has a higher standard for conduct. I've never seen that before, but I'm wondering if this is that kind of case, given the primary issue was one of disclosure, not content of the edits. I don't have access to the private data, obviously, so I can't say "you should do this", I can only say "Don't be afraid to do this, if it is warranted". Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Two concerns.
"other content policies or guidelines"in finding five. Sdrqaz ( talk) 03:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
@
Moneytrees: can you clarify this comment: The AN thread was not outing
. I was surprised not to see a FoF that Kashmiri outed Nihonjoe twice over (and a lack of remedy for the one who outed him twice even when there was a remedy for someone who did the same thing later, but indelicately).
So, after providing a direct link to doxing at the AfD, and three days after PhilKnight clarified such a link was outing, Kashmiri started a thread at AN that starts with "It was recently brought to the community's attention – through an external online publication which I won't link to here but which can be easily Googled up – that Nihonjoe has been editing articles in which he has a significant conflict of interest. These are articles about his employer, which Nihonjoe has significantly expanded mostly with promotional material, and three articles about his employer's products." [emphasis mine]. Could you elaborate on how initiating a conversation predicated on instructions for how to find personal information (and mentioning a subset of that personal information directly) is substantially different from directly linking to it (in terms of effect/harm)? I would've hoped for a FoF documenting how the community failed to adequately deal with said outing at AN. Instead we have a principle that outing is prohibited even in cases of COI, but a finding of fact that it's ok to give people instructions on where to find the information, doing a little bit of outing, and having a conversation that assumes everyone has followed your instructions. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 02:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
this is not something hard to find- Yes, if someone says "hey everyone, user x has been outed/doxed here at this exact address" followed by "hey everyone, user x has been outed/doxed and you can just google it", then it's true it's not hard to find. Of course, how many people would actually know to search for that without someone linking to it (directly or indirectly) on-wiki? "Outing is bad even if it's easy to find" and "drawing lots of attention to harmful material that otherwise only a small portion of Wikipedians would see" are not things that would've struck me as controversial before this case. Arbcom has taken the evidence and rather than do anything at all about outing, has just endorsed the "doxing is fine as long as you just point off-wiki and as long as it catches someone with a COI" approach to user privacy. VRT stuff is fine and all, but at the same time you (this is generally a collective "you", not moneytrees in particular btw) have shown that there will be no consequences for failing to actually use it. We already had the expectation of doing this privately, after all. Sigh. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 02:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
I think the committee is seriously misreading policy and community consensus in principle #3 (emphasis added): Paid editing, which involves editing Wikipedia in exchange for money or inducements, requires proper disclosure of employer, client, and affiliation. Users who are paid by an entity for publicity are considered paid editors, regardless of whether the payment was specifically for editing Wikipedia.
This is taken from
WP:PAID, but that offers only a minimal definition of paid contributions in respect to the WMF Terms of Use. The ToU allows individual communities to expand upon that definition, and enwiki has done so at
WP:PAY: it makes it clear that paid editing is coterminous with editing with a financial conflict of interest
, and an FCOI arises More generally, an editor has a financial conflict of interest whenever they write about a topic with which they have a close financial relationship.
This unfortunately looks like it's going to result in the committee stopping short of calling Nihonjoe's edits "undisclosed paid editing" (FoF #3), when it's a virtual certainty that a less-privileged editor doing the same thing would be indefinitely blocked for UPE. – Joe ( talk) 07:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
paid editing implies tangible financial compensation that will be promptly received in exchange for the edit– where are you getting that from? And when you say
I wonder if it would cleaner to have a clear financial COI policy (in addition to the COI guideline and PAID policy) that spells out what is permissible, don't we have exactly this at WP:PAY? Which is oddly absent from this decision... – Joe ( talk) 07:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
The queue membership is to be decided by the Arbitration Committee and is open to any functionary and to any administrator by request to the Committee and who passes a functionary-like appointment process (including signing the ANPDP).)Assuming you're saying functionaries have automatic access, admins have access by application and non-admins have no access, it appears the last "and" is trying to join a "by ..." with a "who ..." unsuccessfully. I bring it up because first, I tried adding "anyone" after the "and" and ended up with a completely different thing.
an example of a situation where a ticket should be referred to the committee is when there is a credible report involving an administrator.Is that really a "should", or was "may" or "can" intended?
paid editing is coterminous with editing with a "financial conflict of interest". This is a pretty tortured reading of WP:PAY, which begins
Being paid to contribute to Wikipedia is one form of financial COI[my emphasis]. It goes on to define financial conflict of interest:
More generally, an editor has a financial conflict of interest whenever they write about a topic with which they have a close financial relationship. So the policy that Joe cites says that 1. paid editing is one form of financial COI, and 2. financial COI is more general than just being paid to edit Wikipedia. It's hard to see how ArbCom errs in concluding that this means that financial COI and paid editing are not coterminous. Caeciliusinhorto-public ( talk) 10:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
the suppression log is private so it doesn't really matter who does the suppressionwhich I think misses the point. The reason we have WP:INVOLVED isn't because we're concerned how things look in the logs, but because when people are too close to an issue, it's difficult to make make truly impartial judgement calls. I'm sure HJ knows this and was just imprecise in how he stated things, but it's worth noting. RoySmith (talk) 14:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
JoeRoe, your reading of the PAID/COI relationship is completely wrong, the committee is correctly (and so far unanimously) voting that it's wrong, and indeed multiple arbitrators are using their votes to specifically emphasize its wrongness. Many people have tried to explain to you over the years that a section titled "X" that includes the sentence "X is a proper subset of Y" means what it says, not the contradictory statement "X and Y are the same"; I'm glad it's happening in this very visible forum, so that hopefully you will stop repeating your wrong understanding in the future. -- JBL ( talk) 17:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
In proposed finding of fact 12a, "any reasonable oversight" should be "any reasonable oversighter". There's also a typo in proposed remedy 2a – "harrasment" should be "harassment". DanCherek ( talk) 22:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
You should be clear about whether, assuming it gets consensus, Nihonjoe can stand as a candidate at the proposed admin elections process. * Pppery * it has begun... 22:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
The implementation notes are missing proposed remedy 2a (Fram admonished). – FlyingAce ✈hello 14:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Two remarks:
What tipped the balance between blockable outing and no problem to mention it?
I will stop posting WP:OUTING material and send it to ArbCom instead. That's a general commitment, not just about Nihonjoe...against
As long as the believe is there that ArbCom will do what it needs to do, then there is no need to WP:IAR things in such situations and I have no issue with following policyand
if a "government" is disfunctional, e.g. is more concerned about protecting their colleagues than about "governing" fairly, then civil fisobedience may become more important than continuing to follow the law.Neither of those statements (nor the any number of other quotes from that first post including
...the strong impression that we shouldn't rely on ArbCom to do the right thing, but instead that they... were actively trying to protect Nihonjoe...to silence critics and to shut down all discussion. Perhaps that image was wrong, perhaps the continued pressure and the outings had success, perhaps the until then silent members of ArbCom have reined in the other ones, I don't know, but somewhat reluctantly ArbCom eventually did the right thing) suggests there's not any sort of actual general commitment to stop outing. Instead all of this suggests a commitment to stop violating policies (in this case outing but as the second quote seems to imply policies more widely) as long as you approve of what ArbCom does. That's a pretty contingent commitment which, for me, is not really any meaningful commitment at all. Now I do also give some credit for the second bullet point which in my good faith reading is you genuinely trying to understand where the line is so you don't cross it again. Absent some kind of credible response here I feel like I'm going to have to consider the 4.5 year old (unprecedented and strangely structured) ArbCom case after all to push me one way or another rather than just focusing on recent (and more relevant) conduct. Barkeep49 ( talk) 03:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
outright denials of several conflicts of interest.Firstly, I don't see where, in WP:COI it says there has to be an explicit denial of COI for there to be such a conflict; andSecondly, the more usual definition of someone who doesn't make an outright denial of something later found to be the case—or as is put here,
skipping around the question rather than [making] outright denials—is that they were either gaslighting or lying by omission.Me speaking personally: I also don't think semantics should be a lodestone at this point; the important thing is not so much whether Nohinjoe response ranged from the "evasive" to "outright denials" but that when the truth came out it was only the result of it being forced, metaphorically, kicking and screaming. ——Serial Number 54129 12:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
"there has to be an explicit denial of COI for there to be such a conflict"– conflicts of interest exist regardless of whether someone admits to them or not. The reason why I proposed the alternative finding was that I wanted us (as a Committee) to be more precise. Sdrqaz ( talk) 14:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
HJ Mitchell wrote the suppression log is private so it doesn't really matter who does the suppression
. But when - as in many cases, and what looks like the overwhelming majority of suppressions on pages like
WP:AN to us peons - there's a handful or bunch of suppressed revisions in the history, and the first visible one is an overseer's edit with summary "redact" or "
sigh" or "
what the fuck", it doesn't take rocket science to figure out who did it. —
Cryptic 15:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
(Also, for the exactly nothing it's worth, if you're goading Fram to throw himself on his sword again, it's probably you that's the bad guy.) — Cryptic 15:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm really surprised to see the de-crat remedy. Losing tools for not abusing that particular set of tools (yes, as far as admin tool are concerned, the protections were not a good idea, but as said by others, I think it's easily possible that an admonishment could be just as appropriate.)
Also, just as a technicality - an editor doesn't "have" to be an admin to become a bureaucrat. So even if you want to desysop over the protections, no crat tool were used.
That said, I get the point about commuity trust. But I think Maxim's points are well taken.
Basically, you all are standing on a fence. And discerning minds could argue falling on either side of that fence.
This almost seems to be coming down to subjective whim of each arb. But this isn't like deciding what punctuation to use in an article, or what color a template should be. This is a person.
So I dunno if this is what we want from Arbcom. Maybe it is - but does this fall under: "do the things that community can't seem to"? Because I think the community has shown many times in the past that they can "vote" personal subjective whims.
Just something to think about I guess. - jc37 18:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Propsoed remedy 2.1 states that [c]oncerns about policy violations based on private evidence must be sent to the appropriate off-wiki venue
; is that meant to be "concerns about guideline or policy violations"?
Hydrangeans (
she/her |
talk |
edits) 17:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
This page is for statements regarding the proposed decision, not discussion. Therefore, with the exception of arbitrators and clerks, all editors must create a section for their statement and comment only in their own section. |
This case is now closed and pages relating to it may no longer be watched
|
Target dates: Opened 6 March 2024 • Evidence closes 20 March 2024 • Workshop closes 27 March 2024 • Proposed decision to be posted by 3 April 2024
Scope: The intersection of managing conflict of interest editing with the harassment (outing) policy, in the frame of the conduct of the named parties.
Public evidence is preferred whenever possible; private evidence is allowed (arbcom-en-bwikimedia.org).
Case clerks: Firefly ( Talk) & Amortias ( Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Aoidh ( Talk) & Barkeep49 ( Talk) & Maxim ( Talk)
Wikipedia Arbitration |
---|
|
Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Active:
Inactive:
Recused:
I had thought the committee should include a principle regarding evidence obtained from other wikimedia projects since that was a decent concern expressed during the case, even by an arbitrator during the workshop. Noah, AA Talk 18:38, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
About Proposed Remedy 1, New VRT queue established, you might want to spell out Volunteer Response Team in the first sentence of the text. Also, Barkeep49 asked for feedback, so I'll say that I think this is a good idea (and said so in my evidence). The only issue that I can think of in the proposal is whether admins, as opposed to functionaries, should be involved at all. But I think that the requirement for a "functionary-like" appointment process solves that concern to my satisfaction. One alternative that I can think of is to make ArbCom itself the body to receive reports, but I agree that ArbCom taking this on alone might be an excessive commitment. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I largely agree with Tryptofish, although both the VRT and ANPDP acronyms in remedy 1 need expanding and/or linking (a link the latter case would be particularly useful).<br/
The new queue does seem like a good idea (as I think I said on the functionaries list) and the proposed appointment process seems sensible. If the existing queue is archived it would be a good idea (if technically possible) to either auto-forward new emails to that address to the new list and/or decline them with a pointer to the new list. Alternatively, I guess the existing list could be renamed paid-en-wp-old
and the new list take it's place?
For anyone wondering, my understanding of why the existing list cannot just be broadened is that the archives include checkuser data that may not be shared with non-checkusers.
Thryduulf (
talk) 19:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Pppery: if a process for granting adminship other than RFA is implemented, all arbcom needs to do is to pass a single resolution saying that in every remedy regarding regaining the admin tools, "a successful request for adminship" or equivalent wording means either the Wikipedia:Requests for adminship process or any alternative process by which an editor may become an administrator that has community consensus. Thryduulf ( talk) 10:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Is there any evidence to support Finding of fact 3 that is stronger than the fact that Nihonjoe was employed by Aquaveo at the time of the edits? If there isn't, then this finding of fact as currently written (using the term "paid editing") is accusing Nihonjoe of breaking
WP:PAID and it should be reworded to clarify that this isn't the case. I'd suggest something simple like Nihonjoe edited Aquaveo, GMS (software), and SMS (hydrology software) without disclosing that he was employed by Aquaveo
. If you are accusing Nihonjoe of breaking
WP:PAID, then frankly the proposed sanctions
aren't severe enough.
Iffy★
Chat -- 20:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I didn't take part in the discussion (evidence phase) for two reasons: (1) I see my role more as pointing out irregularities rather than deliberating on how to fix them – we have wiser people to do that. (2) Those wiser people have already brought up many if not most of the points that were of concern to me in this saga, and did it in a much better way that I would ever do.
Here, I'll only point out that apart from editing articles while having COI, what is not mentioned is that Nihonjoe also nominated some of those articles to DYK (i.e., Main Page) – Leading Edge, Sandra Tayler, Aquaveo – which to me appears as a promotional activity qualitatively different to "minor uncontroversial edits". Does this fact have a bearing on the overall assessment? I apologise for not registering this in the evidence phase.
@ Moneytrees: I sometimes use Google Maps Street View as supporting evidence in notability-related discussions. Would you be able to confirm that that's not allowed? Cheers, — kashmīrī TALK 22:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment: By bringing up the case, I did not intend for Nihonjoe to be dragged to ARBCOM. I expected him – I prodded him gently several times – to post something along the lines of: "I'm realising that I edited a fair number of articles while having an undeclared COI – I've now learned from this mistake and won't make it again, however it would be unfair to continue serving as a bureaucrat, and so I resign my hat." I'm quite sure that would have been it, hardly anybody outside the few most active functionnaires would have noticed that resignation. Yet, Nihonjoe chose a path of half-truths and deceipt, even as his RL identity was becoming known to more and more editors. I'm sorry for Nihonjoe. It didn't have to end this way, as he is a very productive editor and experienced admin who enjoyed significant trust of the community. If the motion succeeds, I'll need to see a fundamental change in his attitude to editing before I support them in any potential RfA. Trust once shattered is not easily rebuilt. — kashmīrī TALK 19:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Finding of fact number 5 (Content of Nihonjoe’s conflict of interest editing) is giving me real "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play" vibes for lack of a better term. Even if it is technically correct that the edits were fine (I share Kashmiri's belief that putting the company you work for on the main page is not innocuous) stating so rubs me the wrong way in light of all the other findings. His participation at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Heritage_Internet_Technologies is also a concern. ~~ Jessintime ( talk) 22:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Doesn't Nihonjoe's relationship with Hemelein Publications constitute WP:PAID editing, given his relationship to that company? Levivich ( talk) 22:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
"Users who are compensated for any publicity efforts related to the subject of their Wikipedia contributions are deemed to be paid editors"). I do not think that Nihonjoe was paid for publicity efforts (or at least we haven't received sufficient evidence for that). Sdrqaz ( talk) 14:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
It seems that two (mildly inappropriate) protections happened but not any violation of editing policies, so the main problem was disclosure. This brings up a conundrum. If Nehonjoe was only an admin, this would likely result in a strong admonishment only. Maybe desysop, but at least as likely an admonishment. But Crats have a higher standard of conduct, so the admin bit seems to be getting dragged along. It is possible for Arb to remove the Crat bit, but leave the Admin bit, because Crat has a higher standard for conduct. I've never seen that before, but I'm wondering if this is that kind of case, given the primary issue was one of disclosure, not content of the edits. I don't have access to the private data, obviously, so I can't say "you should do this", I can only say "Don't be afraid to do this, if it is warranted". Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Two concerns.
"other content policies or guidelines"in finding five. Sdrqaz ( talk) 03:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
@
Moneytrees: can you clarify this comment: The AN thread was not outing
. I was surprised not to see a FoF that Kashmiri outed Nihonjoe twice over (and a lack of remedy for the one who outed him twice even when there was a remedy for someone who did the same thing later, but indelicately).
So, after providing a direct link to doxing at the AfD, and three days after PhilKnight clarified such a link was outing, Kashmiri started a thread at AN that starts with "It was recently brought to the community's attention – through an external online publication which I won't link to here but which can be easily Googled up – that Nihonjoe has been editing articles in which he has a significant conflict of interest. These are articles about his employer, which Nihonjoe has significantly expanded mostly with promotional material, and three articles about his employer's products." [emphasis mine]. Could you elaborate on how initiating a conversation predicated on instructions for how to find personal information (and mentioning a subset of that personal information directly) is substantially different from directly linking to it (in terms of effect/harm)? I would've hoped for a FoF documenting how the community failed to adequately deal with said outing at AN. Instead we have a principle that outing is prohibited even in cases of COI, but a finding of fact that it's ok to give people instructions on where to find the information, doing a little bit of outing, and having a conversation that assumes everyone has followed your instructions. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 02:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
this is not something hard to find- Yes, if someone says "hey everyone, user x has been outed/doxed here at this exact address" followed by "hey everyone, user x has been outed/doxed and you can just google it", then it's true it's not hard to find. Of course, how many people would actually know to search for that without someone linking to it (directly or indirectly) on-wiki? "Outing is bad even if it's easy to find" and "drawing lots of attention to harmful material that otherwise only a small portion of Wikipedians would see" are not things that would've struck me as controversial before this case. Arbcom has taken the evidence and rather than do anything at all about outing, has just endorsed the "doxing is fine as long as you just point off-wiki and as long as it catches someone with a COI" approach to user privacy. VRT stuff is fine and all, but at the same time you (this is generally a collective "you", not moneytrees in particular btw) have shown that there will be no consequences for failing to actually use it. We already had the expectation of doing this privately, after all. Sigh. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 02:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
I think the committee is seriously misreading policy and community consensus in principle #3 (emphasis added): Paid editing, which involves editing Wikipedia in exchange for money or inducements, requires proper disclosure of employer, client, and affiliation. Users who are paid by an entity for publicity are considered paid editors, regardless of whether the payment was specifically for editing Wikipedia.
This is taken from
WP:PAID, but that offers only a minimal definition of paid contributions in respect to the WMF Terms of Use. The ToU allows individual communities to expand upon that definition, and enwiki has done so at
WP:PAY: it makes it clear that paid editing is coterminous with editing with a financial conflict of interest
, and an FCOI arises More generally, an editor has a financial conflict of interest whenever they write about a topic with which they have a close financial relationship.
This unfortunately looks like it's going to result in the committee stopping short of calling Nihonjoe's edits "undisclosed paid editing" (FoF #3), when it's a virtual certainty that a less-privileged editor doing the same thing would be indefinitely blocked for UPE. – Joe ( talk) 07:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
paid editing implies tangible financial compensation that will be promptly received in exchange for the edit– where are you getting that from? And when you say
I wonder if it would cleaner to have a clear financial COI policy (in addition to the COI guideline and PAID policy) that spells out what is permissible, don't we have exactly this at WP:PAY? Which is oddly absent from this decision... – Joe ( talk) 07:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
The queue membership is to be decided by the Arbitration Committee and is open to any functionary and to any administrator by request to the Committee and who passes a functionary-like appointment process (including signing the ANPDP).)Assuming you're saying functionaries have automatic access, admins have access by application and non-admins have no access, it appears the last "and" is trying to join a "by ..." with a "who ..." unsuccessfully. I bring it up because first, I tried adding "anyone" after the "and" and ended up with a completely different thing.
an example of a situation where a ticket should be referred to the committee is when there is a credible report involving an administrator.Is that really a "should", or was "may" or "can" intended?
paid editing is coterminous with editing with a "financial conflict of interest". This is a pretty tortured reading of WP:PAY, which begins
Being paid to contribute to Wikipedia is one form of financial COI[my emphasis]. It goes on to define financial conflict of interest:
More generally, an editor has a financial conflict of interest whenever they write about a topic with which they have a close financial relationship. So the policy that Joe cites says that 1. paid editing is one form of financial COI, and 2. financial COI is more general than just being paid to edit Wikipedia. It's hard to see how ArbCom errs in concluding that this means that financial COI and paid editing are not coterminous. Caeciliusinhorto-public ( talk) 10:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
the suppression log is private so it doesn't really matter who does the suppressionwhich I think misses the point. The reason we have WP:INVOLVED isn't because we're concerned how things look in the logs, but because when people are too close to an issue, it's difficult to make make truly impartial judgement calls. I'm sure HJ knows this and was just imprecise in how he stated things, but it's worth noting. RoySmith (talk) 14:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
JoeRoe, your reading of the PAID/COI relationship is completely wrong, the committee is correctly (and so far unanimously) voting that it's wrong, and indeed multiple arbitrators are using their votes to specifically emphasize its wrongness. Many people have tried to explain to you over the years that a section titled "X" that includes the sentence "X is a proper subset of Y" means what it says, not the contradictory statement "X and Y are the same"; I'm glad it's happening in this very visible forum, so that hopefully you will stop repeating your wrong understanding in the future. -- JBL ( talk) 17:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
In proposed finding of fact 12a, "any reasonable oversight" should be "any reasonable oversighter". There's also a typo in proposed remedy 2a – "harrasment" should be "harassment". DanCherek ( talk) 22:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
You should be clear about whether, assuming it gets consensus, Nihonjoe can stand as a candidate at the proposed admin elections process. * Pppery * it has begun... 22:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
The implementation notes are missing proposed remedy 2a (Fram admonished). – FlyingAce ✈hello 14:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Two remarks:
What tipped the balance between blockable outing and no problem to mention it?
I will stop posting WP:OUTING material and send it to ArbCom instead. That's a general commitment, not just about Nihonjoe...against
As long as the believe is there that ArbCom will do what it needs to do, then there is no need to WP:IAR things in such situations and I have no issue with following policyand
if a "government" is disfunctional, e.g. is more concerned about protecting their colleagues than about "governing" fairly, then civil fisobedience may become more important than continuing to follow the law.Neither of those statements (nor the any number of other quotes from that first post including
...the strong impression that we shouldn't rely on ArbCom to do the right thing, but instead that they... were actively trying to protect Nihonjoe...to silence critics and to shut down all discussion. Perhaps that image was wrong, perhaps the continued pressure and the outings had success, perhaps the until then silent members of ArbCom have reined in the other ones, I don't know, but somewhat reluctantly ArbCom eventually did the right thing) suggests there's not any sort of actual general commitment to stop outing. Instead all of this suggests a commitment to stop violating policies (in this case outing but as the second quote seems to imply policies more widely) as long as you approve of what ArbCom does. That's a pretty contingent commitment which, for me, is not really any meaningful commitment at all. Now I do also give some credit for the second bullet point which in my good faith reading is you genuinely trying to understand where the line is so you don't cross it again. Absent some kind of credible response here I feel like I'm going to have to consider the 4.5 year old (unprecedented and strangely structured) ArbCom case after all to push me one way or another rather than just focusing on recent (and more relevant) conduct. Barkeep49 ( talk) 03:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
outright denials of several conflicts of interest.Firstly, I don't see where, in WP:COI it says there has to be an explicit denial of COI for there to be such a conflict; andSecondly, the more usual definition of someone who doesn't make an outright denial of something later found to be the case—or as is put here,
skipping around the question rather than [making] outright denials—is that they were either gaslighting or lying by omission.Me speaking personally: I also don't think semantics should be a lodestone at this point; the important thing is not so much whether Nohinjoe response ranged from the "evasive" to "outright denials" but that when the truth came out it was only the result of it being forced, metaphorically, kicking and screaming. ——Serial Number 54129 12:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
"there has to be an explicit denial of COI for there to be such a conflict"– conflicts of interest exist regardless of whether someone admits to them or not. The reason why I proposed the alternative finding was that I wanted us (as a Committee) to be more precise. Sdrqaz ( talk) 14:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
HJ Mitchell wrote the suppression log is private so it doesn't really matter who does the suppression
. But when - as in many cases, and what looks like the overwhelming majority of suppressions on pages like
WP:AN to us peons - there's a handful or bunch of suppressed revisions in the history, and the first visible one is an overseer's edit with summary "redact" or "
sigh" or "
what the fuck", it doesn't take rocket science to figure out who did it. —
Cryptic 15:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
(Also, for the exactly nothing it's worth, if you're goading Fram to throw himself on his sword again, it's probably you that's the bad guy.) — Cryptic 15:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm really surprised to see the de-crat remedy. Losing tools for not abusing that particular set of tools (yes, as far as admin tool are concerned, the protections were not a good idea, but as said by others, I think it's easily possible that an admonishment could be just as appropriate.)
Also, just as a technicality - an editor doesn't "have" to be an admin to become a bureaucrat. So even if you want to desysop over the protections, no crat tool were used.
That said, I get the point about commuity trust. But I think Maxim's points are well taken.
Basically, you all are standing on a fence. And discerning minds could argue falling on either side of that fence.
This almost seems to be coming down to subjective whim of each arb. But this isn't like deciding what punctuation to use in an article, or what color a template should be. This is a person.
So I dunno if this is what we want from Arbcom. Maybe it is - but does this fall under: "do the things that community can't seem to"? Because I think the community has shown many times in the past that they can "vote" personal subjective whims.
Just something to think about I guess. - jc37 18:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Propsoed remedy 2.1 states that [c]oncerns about policy violations based on private evidence must be sent to the appropriate off-wiki venue
; is that meant to be "concerns about guideline or policy violations"?
Hydrangeans (
she/her |
talk |
edits) 17:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)