Sadko and Mikola22 are topic banned from WP:ARBEE. Amanuensis Balkanicus is warned about editing tendentiously. The list of pages suggested Peacemaker67 protected for a year. -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 01:45, 20 March 2021 (UTC) | ||||||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Sadko
[4], [5], [6], [7] These all involve removal of negative material from clearly reliable sources from an article Sadko created about a highly controversial recent Serbian film about the Croatian Ustaše Jasenovac concentration camp ( Dara of Jasenovac) between 5 and 25 February this year
Sadko has made quite a number of other appearances on the dramaboards in the time this report covers (since the account was renamed from User:Mm.srb in August 2019) , as the editor being reported or through making gratuitous comments, baiting or casting aspersions regarding others involved in discussions, including:
Since January, I have been largely inactive on WP due to RW stuff, but have been collating material for this report when time allowed, and have only just been able to complete that task.
I've been given a dispensation by Vanamonde93 for going over the usual limits. Long-term POV-pushing is one of the most insidious aspects of Wikipedia, and one with which I have long experience as a content creator and admin in the Balkans subject area. It is hard to counter and it is harder to make a case against its exponents than against editors who cause intense but short-term disruption. I could add many additional diffs of the same sort of editing behaviour. One of the worst aspects of what Sadko has been doing is that their editing is clearly at the core of a significant uptick in highly disruptive and blatant POV-pushing editing and battleground behaviour on former Yugoslavia articles that has been going on for over a year. In that time, in addition to a small group of longer-term pro-Serb/Serbia editors, many IPs and new accounts have appeared to support Sadko’s efforts, either to reinstate Sadko's edits when reverted, or to chip in on talk pages to create the impression of a “consensus” supporting their edits. The meatpuppetry and off-wiki coordination implications are obvious. Equally, Sadko often supports and reinstates edits made by these IPs and new accounts. This has created an environment where editors from other countries in the Balkans have responded in kind, themselves supported by IPs and new accounts, as well as existing POV pushers, particularly pro-Croat/Croatian ones, but also others. My primary subject area is Yugoslavia in World War II, but as you can see from some of the above diffs, Sadko's editing behaviour spreads wider than that into all subjects relating to Serbs and Serbia and their relationships with other former Yugoslav peoples and countries. Sadko’s creation and POV defence of the Dara of Jasenovac article is just the latest in this war against neutrality on Wikipedia. In order to help prevent the high level of disruption and POV-pushing centred on Sadko, I recommend they be topic banned from Balkans and Balkans-related articles for at least six months, with scope to appeal after six months expires if they are able to show that they can edit neutrally in other subject areas in the meantime. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your patience, and apologies in advance for the length of this. The key aspect of long-term POV pushing is that it usually does not cross the line into easily blockable "smoking gun" territory. It needs to be looked at across a considerable period of time, and the restrictions on 20 (or a few more) diffs actively hampers effective reports of it, because only examples can be used. I used 22 diffs over a year and a bit, but I could have provided many more. Long-term POV pushing (which I agree Mikola22 is also involved in, for the record, and which needs to be dealt with) is a consistent pattern of partisan editing behaviour that erodes the Wikipedia pillar of neutrality. Editors that engage in it are trying to minimise negative material about their "side", and maximise negative material about the other "side". The majority of the POV-pushing that has been ramping up in the last year has been coming from Serbophile/Croatophobic or Croatophile/Serbophobic editors, and Sadko and Mikola22 are probably the worst offenders from the respective sides (although there are several others who are not far behind, some of whom have commented here). The numbers of editors pushing their POV and battlegrounding in the Balkans area has, over the last year, become completely unmanageable from an admin perspective due to a high level of disruption, and is significantly eroding the quality of the encyclopaedia in this area. They may well be coming from Croatian Wikipedia (which is a cesspit) and Serbian Wikipedia (which isn't great either). But back to Sadko. If you look at Dara of Jasenovac, not only did Sadko create the article about the film (which was highly promotional from the beginning), but they consistently defended the film from criticism for weeks (as evidenced by the diffs above, and others I did not use), and never added any information about criticism of the film at all. This is absolutely typical of Sadko's editing behaviour, in this case, they are enhancing as much as possible the victim status of Serbs (which is of course entirely correct in the case of the Jasenovac camp and the genocide of Serbs by the Ustasha more generally), while minimising or eliminating completely legitimate and serious criticism of the film and the motives behind it from reliable sources. This is Sadko's default editing position. Sadko claims I am "involved". But am I really? I am trying to ensure articles in this space are neutrally written, and when I disagree with him, others on his side, or editors on the opposing side, protect articles to stop edit wars etc, I am just protecting the neutrality of the encyclopaedia. I have no barrow to push here, and am not aligned with any side, although I have been "accused" of being from every faction of the former Yugoslavia at one point or another. In response to Vanamonde93's specific question: If you look at this edit on 1 December 2020 that you mentioned, Sadko is changing "genocide" by Chetniks (Serb guerillas) to "ethnic cleansing". At this point, the question of genocide vs. ethnic cleansing had been discussed on the talk page in April and May of that year, and any fair reading of the thread (now in the archives, but here) would have concluded that the consensus (if you take out the comments by the later Balkans TBANed WEBDuB and Antidiskriminator (both Serbophiles), and Mikola22 on the Croat side), was that the correct term was genocide, and several reliable sources were provided by those arguing that point (including me). But Sadko ignored this when he made the 1 December 2020 substitution, and it was then the subject of a further discussion at that time ( here), which again resulted in a consensus that genocide was the right term, despite the intense involvement of WEBDuB again (Antidiskriminator had been TBANed by this stage). When the matter was raised yet again in late December 2020 as an RfC (the continual rehashing of disputes where a consensus has already emerged is frankly exhausting), it was closed in support of the description of it as genocide. So, Sadko was acting against an existing consensus in 1 December 2020, and that consensus has been confirmed twice since. In conclusion, the TBANing of Sadko (and Mikola22 for that matter) would significantly reduce the ridiculous amount of POV-pushing and battlegrounding going on in the Balkans space by editors trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS against their "side", something that has been going on at intense levels for over a year and is eroding the quality of the encyclopaedia in this space due to the constant undermining of neutrality, a core content policy. Rosguill has suggested that liberal application of temporary TBANs may help establish higher standards of editing behaviour, and I heartily endorse that approach. When it comes to POV-pushers in this area, like WEBDuB and Antidiskriminator, TBANs have been the only thing that has worked. In my nine or so years here, Wikipedia hasn't been good at dealing with long-term POV pushing in the Balkans; it took years for Antidiskriminator to get indefinitely TBANed despite his outrageous POV-pushing behaviour and multiple reports. Any editors TBANed as a result of this report will get the opportunity to show that they can edit neutrally in areas outside the Balkans, and in six months they can ask for it to be lifted if they have demonstrated they can do it. If they have, I will support their return. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 11:29, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Here are my thoughts on articles that could do with long-term semi-protection in the first instance. They are not in priority order:
There are almost certainly others, and some of these are less active, but they all have bouts of edit warring and IP disruption. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:17, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SadkoStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SadkoI was and am here to build an encyclopedia, and I did so for a number of years, improving subjects and articles which were in poor state, and sometimes tagged for +10 years. I do not claim that my editing is perfect or anything of the sort, but the text posted above takes it to a whole new level. Most of the diffs presented have been cherrypicked and taken out of context, by an administrator, no less, with whom I had several strong disputes and disagreements in the past. Out of the diffs presented across many years and months of editing, I am guilty of 1 ad hominem comment made after the IP edits which pushed fringe viewpoints on Nikola Tesla for several years. I can also understand that there is this interesting idea being introduced in the report, which pretty much states that my ban will somehow magically lead to things being calmer, during the time that the editor making the report is absent. That is both naive and offensive. It serves as means to present me as the main cause of the supposed chaos, which was ever-present in the Balkans-related topic to begin with. It is even more irrational considering that I have been hounded and harassed by persistent disruptive IP editors.
Another thing, it just seems weird to ban 1 editor from editing about, for example, culture/art history/geography of the Balkans or any other region, if their edits, which are presented as disruptive, have all been about history in the first place. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 04:27, 8 March 2021 (UTC) @ Mikola22:]
I'll try to answer as short as I can. This is my reply to the second post by PM.
Statement by Mikola22@Amanuensis Balkanicus, it is enough to see editor Sadko's report against me on WP:AE. Review of that report from administrator Peacemaker67 has shown that there is nothing or very little in report. This was bad faith report. As for the second attempt ANI (2021), and the merging some of my statements from the past(2019) in Nazi context, I have explained that a hundred times. Krunoslav Draganović, which is the biggest Ustasha and Nazi for you, Sadko and others for me in 2019 was a historian esteemed in the Croatian Church, quoted in many Croatian school papers, presented in libraries by leading peoples of the Catholic Church in Croatia, even Noel Malcolm use his sources. I don’t know about his Nazism at that time and I don’t know how you can’t understand that? Regarding "Ustaše on meta.wiki" I didn't mention the Ustashas anywhere. At that time the source which was on Cro wiki in some article, some editor on meta.wiki exposed as a problem of Cro wiki. I thought at that time(2019) that it was RS and since I supported Cro wiki I also supported their decision to use that source because I didn't know at that time what actually mean RS although I never read that source. For me at that time every source is RS. I was also ask for negative reviews of that source and no one, not even you or Sadko who were there exposed this negative reviews. To summarize, from your answer it is clear that attacks based on artificial facts continue against me and that I am only one on your mind. Anyone who neutrally evaluate your accusations against me, you accuse as my support which clearly shows yours bad faith in relation to me but also disrespect for administrators. I don't think that's right. Mikola22 ( talk) 21:57, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
@
Khirurg: @ Rosguill: you know I will respect every decision, but still you have to be aware that I came among them 5 or 6 editors, also I was very inexperienced because I didn't know what wikipedia actually is and they used this situation well. I think that two of these 5 or 6 editors are blocked, the third would be editor Nicoljaus who worked for some period in tandem with Sadko, and Sadko as the fourth is close too. If I were from beginning in interaction only with editor Sadko and not with all of them I certainly wouldn’t have so many reports and edit wars because they all worked together. So we are not completely equal to share common punishment. Also as we hear from them, when I came to wikipedia they all started getting into trouble and slowly disappear from wikipedia? They worked here in good faith for years and then some anonymous(Mikola22) person with hundreds of sources, information's, checking the sources from articles, removing OR information's etc, disrupted their good faith conception? Yes there were mistakes but I think a lot of good has been done. Mikola22 ( talk) 22:17, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by JoyAs mentioned above, I've noticed the issues with this user's behavior myself, and I'm only posting in a separate section in an effort to avoid any appearance of impropriety. In short, yes, having people editing in this topic area while they can't seem to follow some basic tenets of Wikipedia and rules of the contentious topic area in particular - is pointless. For example, we shouldn't have to keep explaining what should be the glaringly obvious rules on the basic integrity of reproducing what sources say like I had to do here. Or what's an ancient primary source and what's a modern secondary source, like I had to do here. Add in advocating for biased pamphlets masquerading as articles and then railing against evil admins who are out to get them, like it happened here, well that's just depressingly bad. A non-trivial volume of (fairly ridiculous) Balkan edit warring is going on at en: practically all the time - indeed whoever follows up on the links above will notice that often times it was interactions with editors who have since been rightfully blocked for various policy violations. The 'warring' parties feed off one another's ridiculousness, and create what seems to be a perpetually toxic environment. If an editor has 25k edits under their belt and still has to be moderated in this regard, then that is a lost cause and a waste of volunteer time and effort. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:42, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Rosguill thank you for coming back to the point. I am entirely unamused to see the discussion spammed to death again just like the last time I had contact with this matter. This is basically gaming the system to death - an abuse that is pretty much obvious is met by kilobytes upon kilobytes of wikilawyering. And that is both by allies and enemies of the accused! Apparently they all sense that keeping the waters muddy is the main trick here. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 20:43, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Amanuensis BalkanicusThis will be lengthy, but it extensively dissects the points raised by Peacemaker67, and I promise you, is well worth the read. Sadko is a user who's been editing Wikipedia far longer than anyone likely to comment here, including Peacemaker67 (and excluding Joy). Full disclosure: I've worked with PM67 for around a decade and together we promoted 3 or 4 articles to FA status and several others to GA. I've always considered him a constructive editor, although we've had minor disagreements in the past. By early 2020, my perception of PM67 began to change, because when push came to shove, PM67 began to almost invariably side with " Croatian POV editors " (his words, not mine) in content disputes. After his six-month topic ban in January, WEBDuB (an editor I believe is Serbian) appealed to PM67, but the latter told him he supported the topic ban until WEBDuB could "demonstrate he could edit neutrally." [60] This all seemed rather peculiar to me, given that PM67 has treated the Croatian editor Mikola22, whose editing is far more problematic than WEBDuB's or Sadko's, with kid gloves time and time again, using his considerable clout as an admin to ensure he evades sanctions. This comment defending Mikola is from the other day. [61] This glaring double standard was noted by Griboski shortly after WEBDuB's topic ban. [62] A few months ago, PM67 also came to Mikola22's rescue in an AN/I and argued that Mikola's outbursts had been misconstrued because English wasn't his first language. The diffs in which Mikola said those awful things were from 2019, and thus "stale", PM67 said. [63] Water under the bridge. Let bygones be bygones. But with Sadko? Then it's perfectly acceptable to cherrypick diffs from 2019 and use them to portray Sadko in the worst possible light, first language and age of diffs be damned. Mighty convenient, chief. Let's take a look at PM67's "evidence" of Sadko's supposed malign behaviour:
In conclusion, literally everything Sadko has ever-so-dubiously been accused of here is either something that is standard fare in this part of en.wiki or has been done by the vast majority of Balkan users who have commented here or are likely to comment here. All in all, this report is quite disappointing, not least because PM67 is a longtime admin, who (in theory, at least) is supposed to be impartial and "above all that", especially when it comes to petty regional quarrels as we've been seeing over the past 18 months. Not to mention the incredibly poor quality of evidence that's been put forth. A great big nothing-burger all around. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 20:07, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by KhirurgSadki has been editing productively since 2008 and has generally managed to stay out of trouble, and has kept a clean block log since 2019. He performs valuable work on badly neglected topics such as Serbian cinema and arts; for instance, he has created over 70 articles on Serbian art personalities [89]. He has not violated 3RR, nor does he regularly game the 3 revert limit.
Statement by Maleschreiber
Statement by Vacant0I can't really tell if the environment around Balkan-related topics has been improved over the course of past six months since I've been trying to stay out of them ever since I made my account. What I have noticed is that since the beginning of this year there has been more POV pushing by all sides, and because of it I had to step in somewhere even though I didn't want to. I don't think that it's worth for me to make statements about Sadko's unacceptable behavior because other editors already proved some point. Sadko has been here for over 10 years now and there is no doubt that he might did something wrong in the past, but I personally think that he isn't that type of an editor to do these unacceptable edits on purpose. I've been following Sadko's edits since the beginning of this year because he has been involved in some of the Balkan-related topics and I generally can't see any POV pushing by him. I'm pretty sure that I'm not wrong but if I am you can correct me on this one. I think that my comment won't make any difference here but I personally wanted to comment on this situation because I saw similar and worse editing by user Mikola22 but I'm not sure if his edits have been discussed before. Vacant0 ( talk) 12:30, 11 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by Santasa99It’s hard to be concise at the same time and work out something elaborate that should show a wide range of violations - in terms of behavior and content. The toxicity of the Balkan scope can hardly be tolerated, and the root of all the problems is, of course, the emotional attachment to local identities, which editors cannot or do not want to control. I’ll try to put together a statement in as few words as possible and as few “diffs” as possible, and if any administrator finds it interesting, I’ll provide clarifications.
First to contrast these enormous defensive walls of text of Sadkos tag-team buddies, such as Amanuensis Balkanicus (AB) (
this illustrates existence of exclusive circle,
[112]→
[113], or how they together suspect Mikola from time to time
[114]→
[115]→
[116],
[117]→
[118] (there is Sadko's attempt to get rid of Mikola in one such report, which closing admins called weaponization of the process but Sadko escaped with warning); this didn't stop Sadko from trolling my own TP uninvited for reason they perceived as similar (I never respond to such requests, though):
[119]); false equalization by insisting on "POV pushing on all sides"; noticeable attempt to distract this report by redirecting attention from Sadko to Mikola (who else), while questioning Peacemaker's integrity as a neutral editor and admin by all three parties, Sadko, AB and Khirurg - so, let it be registered that AB is not neutral agent and that his agency as a pusher of Serbian perspective (POV) on Balkans topics (history, Yugoslav Wars, and so on), is felt, for instance, when they found themselves implicated in meatpuppetiering with messages
like this to Sadko, regarding
this, they removed the AB's message immediately and went to help; or
like this, where AB asking Sadko for support against admin Drmies' concerns after the issue was raised by Maleschreiber.
Drmies warned AB of canvassing and both, AB and Sadko, of Sadko peculiar method of disruption is changing scope where arguments fail. In article List of Serbian painters, I tried to remove painters who do not belong to the list because they are not related to Serbia, but Sadko restored these items (painters) twice, and on third revert they did
this, with an edit-summary, Another problematic issue is following (hounding): me - Sadko I complained many times since late 2019, at least twice at user's TP: first time, and again. Few examples: instead of individual diffs I offer my User contribution page filtered between 02:13, 20 June 2020 and 23:58, 20 June 2020 where it can be observed editor jumping from page to page behind me; me - Sadko. I could provide more diffs on this problem if necessary, also in case of other editors being followed by Sadko, if that would be appropriate.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 21:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
As a side note: as far as I can tell, there are no Bosnian Muslim and Montenegrin editors currently that I know of, who would be editing on the contentious subject (of Balkan history, culture and politics); there are at least three times more editors editing with Serbian slant then those who edit from the explicit Croat bias. In the last couple of years some of the worst violators in the users-names of Zoupan and AnulBanul (Serbian and Croatian sockpuppetiers), Shokatz and Ceha (blocked, Croatian), Antidiskriminator and WEBDuB (banned, Serbian), are now gone. However, we lost invaluable members who self-imposed premature "retirement" on themselves, due to their refusal to participate in editing under such a toxic atmosphere - an examples I encountered are/were likes of Ivan Štambuk (whose invaluable contribution (expertise really) in sphere of Serbo-Croatian linguistic gave en.wiki and its articles on the subject credibility with correct info based on local and international mainstream scholarship), Timbuktu, Director or Producer (not sure anymore who between them), Potočnik, to name a few more. Needless to say, they were on the opposite side from "all" other POV-pusher groups, "all" being just two groups really (Serbian and Croatian), Ivan in particular - bottom line, they all left because of persisting toxicity and lack of strong, close oversight. If I am really correct in my observation, then, it significantly undermines usual claptrap about "all sides pushing their POV's equally" and evermore common trope that under Balkan scope locals are all more-less steeped in nationalistic bias and tribal quarrels. A curiosity, though, is that locally neutral POV always existed and is related to application of Serbo-Croatian, or more commonly Yugoslav, lens through which one perceive more commonalities than differences between Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks (Muslims), Bosnians (Bosnianandherzegovinians), and Montenegrins, in both real life and in project - with that being said, all of these editors that came to my mind, with enough certainty can be recognized as Croatian, which means that Croatian editors come from both camps, pro-Croatian and nationalist, and neutral and anti-nationalist, where I have yet to encounter Serbian editors who belong to the later camp. With this in mind, admins shouldn't lose from sight the fact that this report is filed by outsider, whose credibility as neutral editor and admin with integrity that can not be doubted. Finally, evaluation of which state (Croatia or Serbia) inject more nationalism in its respective society is unnecessary distraction, potentially even harmful for editors as naive as Mikola, who may feel that they can correct Ymblanter observation, and in doing so, in good faith but their weak English, compromise them self even more.--
౪ Santa ౪
99° 22:30, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Griboski
Statement by ResnjariThere is a strong case for @Sadko receiving a topic ban on all Balkan topics. Peacemaker67 has made a succinct case and Maleschreiber has presented additional examples. As not to tread ground they already covered, i will note one recent interaction with @Sadko and myself when it came to the article about Niš city and the etymology of its name. I added content based on WP:RS, about its placename formation via reliable scholarship discussing that partial formation through early medieval (proto) Albanian-Slavic linguistic contact. The bit about the role of Albanian was removed by @Sadko [123] who said it was an "irrelevant piece of trivia and WP:OR, Ancient Greek it is." The bit about Ancient Greek was not contested or removed, only elaborated upon how certain other linguistic input and changes resulted in its final present form. So then why is it "trivia"? Because Albanian is mentioned? So i reverted Sadko [124]. Sadko responded with an edit where he reinterpreted the Albanian of the sources to mean Illyrian and wrote it as such [125]. That smacked of WP:OR. I had to point out the sources made no such claim and readjusted accordingly and out of courtesy kept much of @Sadko's wording from previous edits [126]. The sentence on the name etymology achieved its current form after some more edits on the page by other editors and myself. At the same time this issue did bleed into the History of Niš page. Here a similar cycle was begun by @Sadko's edit [127] and then responded to by Ktrimi991. However administrator Drmies opened a thread [128] in the talkpage after seeing both @Sadko's and @Ktrimi's edit summaries as they "tickled my fancy, as did Sadko's edit summary". I engaged in the talkpage, so did other involved editors and admin @Drmies. @Sadko never once bothered to engage in the talkpage to explain or make the case about reasons for exclusion. The reason I bring this Niš placename example up is the rationale for content exclusion and reverts by @Sadko was not based on something substantive like policy or guidelines, but "triva" and so on. What is one to make of that apart from WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS editing. And this sadly has echoes of 2017 when the same matter at the History of Niš was contested by @Antidiskriminator on grounds that "undo POV pushing of Greater Albanian autochtonous mythology per WP:BRD. Take it to the talkpage to gain consensus" [129]. The talkpage discussion imploded into toxic farce [130]. My point is @Peacemaker67 is a good judge of character and is one of the few brave enough administrators willing to engage with the Balkans topic area and deal with hotheads. @Antidiskriminator was topic banned for nationalist editing after years of problematic behavior only when his editing was put under the spotlight by @Peacemaker67 in this forum. So when @Sadko is brought here by @Peacemaker67 and edits by @Sadko exhibit WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS with WP:BATTLEGROUND characteristics, isn't it time for a proper long topic ban? And not a short one of some weeks or months. As some have said, Sadko is an editor harking back to 2008. The problems have increased, not decreased. Who is to say we won’t be here again and again. Resnjari ( talk) 09:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC) Result concerning Sadko
Since these three diffs span a range of 15 months, it would suffice to issue a reminder for Sadko to
focus on article content, not editor conduct, in
content disputes.
As it is likely that editors will add more comments to the existing discussion, here is some general advice for participating on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard:
Looking at
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive232 § Capitals00, I see that there is precedent for issuing topic bans on all editors who exhibit a long-term pattern of
battleground behavior in a topic area covered under discretionary sanctions, regardless of whether the reported edits are sanctionable when viewed in isolation. Based on this, I support Ymblanter's "scorched earth" recommendation, with a change: per Bishonen, indefinite topic bans are preferable to time-limited topic bans, since the affected editors would be required to make constructive edits in a less contentious topic area before appealing. An indefinite topic ban for both Sadko and Mikola22 from Eastern Europe and the Balkans would raise the standard of conduct expected of all editors in the topic area. —
Newslinger
talk 03:23, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
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The facts in the case don't match the claim. There was an RFC, OgamD218's edit appears to be consistent with the RFC AND their edit summary clearly invited others to tweak if they felt necessary. No action taken against OgamD218 in this case. I would warn FDW777 that when they file an AE/AN/ANI case, they need to more careful that the claims are substantiated by the facts. Note, this doesn't mean the edit is "perfect", as this is a BLP, and subject to more than just the RFC, as our policy on BLP applies, but any shortcomings can be addressed through the normal editing and discussion process. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:40, 20 March 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning OgamD218
The RFC was closed stating there was general consensus for inclusion, but with the specific caveat stating However, the exact wording and precisely how to present the information, such as how or whether to contrast it with her denial, has not yet been determined and can still be discussed. The first hasty addition by another editor was reverted citing that exact caveat, yet it was ignored completely and restored without any attempt at discussion. This editor has a history of tendentious editing in the Troubles area, see for example the discussion at Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army#Terrorist Designation, especially the sub-section at Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army#"No, all of my edits were originally fully referenced and accurately represented". FDW777 ( talk) 11:18, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning OgamD218Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by OgamD218It appears this has been resolved favorably, which I'm grateful for, but feel I should get several facts on the record: - The Good Faith policy was abused by FDW who outright lied in their report. I ask admins to please look more closely at the background of this, incl the RfC and
ANI discussion by
CeltBrowne. No major dispute existed, - The edit i restored wasn't made "in haste", this is a lie, it was in the RfC. - FDW made a false report under a false basis, the issues here have nothing to do with The Troubles, FDW uses threats of sanctions for breaching the 1RR to bully other editors even in instances where it shouldn't apply. - I don't have - FDW does have a history of tendentious editing in the Troubles area, in addition to this incident specifically,
the PIRA page linked was denied GAN by
Peacemaker67 bc, referring to FDW, - The tactics FDW used here and uses regularly should be addressed. I ask the admims here to please look more closely at this, as pointed out by
Dennis Brown -
2¢ Statement by SunriseTo be clear, as the one who wrote the text being quoted, the statement is not intended to imply that the information has to remain out of the article until agreement on the text is reached. It may also be relevant to note that this AE request follows the opening of an ANI discussion by a different editor. Sunrise ( talk) 15:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by Nil EinneI'm not involved and don't wish to be involved in this dispute in any way. But as I pointed out at ANI, it might IMO be acceptable for FDW777 to revert an addition if they had started a discussion explaining why they feel the addition was a problem and preferably suggesting how it needs to be improved. I might even agree that while that discussion was ongoing, the text shouldn't have been re-added. But with the RfC, FDW777 cannot IMO just revert an addition and demand others start a discussion. While I normally think disputes where both party are demanding the other start a discussion rather than being the one to start one themselves, are silly, in this case the ball is clearly in FDW777's court to start a discussion. Any addition seems to be trying to fulfill the consensus achieved and therefore can be taken as an improvement not explicitly needing discussion. If FDW777 feels the proposed addition is a problem they need to explain why, rather than expecting someone else to explain why there needs to be a change as we have already established the that. Nil Einne ( talk) 09:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning OgamD218
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Nothing new has been presented as evidence, and the events given have already been reviewed by the community as a whole. Timothy is basically appealing the outcome of an ANI discussion, but the rationale is simply that he didn't like the outcome. Since he has not provided us with a substantiated conflict, mistake or other fatal flaw in the close, it would be inappropriate for us to review. In fact, this is simply a second bite of the apple. As such, the appeal should be denied. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:55, 20 March 2021 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy
I believe this is the appropriate and latest version of AE sanctions for Palestine-Israel articles
Per "You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs" I link to this ANI discussion [131]. It contains an abundance of diffs and comments, and the recent discussions on this talk page [132]
I write this reluctantly as I've largely decided to leave, but I returned this afternoon to see if anyone had closed the recent ANI thread here. I expected no action, but to my surprise Wikieditor19920 had received a topic ban and Nableezy had received a "final warning". I definitely do not believe a "final warning" is adequate given the entire situation and that this is a DS area, and I cannot see how this outcome is anywhere near equitable. Wikieditor19920 may well merit a topic ban given the entirety of the circumstances, but for them to receive a topic ban while Nableezy skates away with a warning is beyond believable (but it does validate my thinking about the dysfunctional mess at ANI). Yesterday I was planning to post to AE for a review and was waiting for the ANI thread to close because I've seen AE requests rejected because of an open ANI, but several admins had seen multiple editors requests to close and move to AE and not taken action and the situation continued to get worse. I came to the conclusion this entire mess was a waste of time, no one was taking the mater seriously and walked away. But because I think this is an inadequate and inequitable outcome, I am requesting the conduct of Nableezy be reviewed by AE. That the ANI report was allowed to spiral out of control (again) is absolutely inexcusable; its outrageous editors cannot expect orderly civil discussions at ANI. I think AE needs to consider the discussions as a whole to determine if DE/TE is a problem. I ask that the discussion at ANI and at Talk:Arab states–Israeli alliance against Iran as the most recent be examined in this regard. If Nableezy's editing is acceptable, this should be made clear to all; if it is not acceptable, it merits a topic ban since this is a DS area. If Wikipedia allows a Lord of the Flies atmosphere to reign, they will get editors that thrive in this type of environment and will continue to lose editors that want an orderly civil atmosphere to build and improve. One final note: If you look at their user page you will see the collapsed section "A trip down memory lane". Along with the comment here You can consider me perpetually aware of the sanctions lol., AE should consider why this is posted if there is a message and attitude here about ANI and AE. // Timothy :: talk 23:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning NableezyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NableezyI already received a logged warning for all this. And I acknowledged how thin the ice I skate on is, and I acknowledged my own shortcomings both in that ANI and in past edits. Not sure what else I am supposed to add here. I dont think Ive done anything wrong at Talk:Arab states–Israeli alliance against Iran, Timothy has been upset that I decline to wait a month to remove what even he agrees is material that fails verification. Our standards for content get more stringent in contested areas, not more lax, and the idea that we should retain potentially false material for a month doesnt have any policy basis and so I declined to follow that plan. I dont see how linking to an entire talk page is useful either in showing problematic conduct, but if there is some specific diff there that somebody would like me to address please let me know. nableezy - 23:41, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by HuldraTimothyBlue: You really need to post some diffs here, preferably some diffs that hasn't come up before (and which gave Nableezy a logged warning.) I believe Double jeopardy still holds? Huldra ( talk) 23:53, 19 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by Nil EinneI agree with those who suggest it is problematic to ask for a different outcome at AE than one that was achieved at ANI from the same evidence. But also, what I saw at ANI is that in a short space of time, TimothyBlue went from supporting a topic ban of both, to then supporting the eventual outcome, to now demanding action against nableezy again. There's nothing wrong with that but TimothyBlue surely you can provide some diffs from those 2 days or so when you came to your final conclusion rather than expecting people to read a very long ANI etc to find whatever it is that lead to that conclusion. I mean what's the point of people reading stuff from the part which would lead the your middle conclusion i.e. in support of the outcome you are now unhappy about? Nil Einne ( talk) 12:54, 20 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by ZaathrasHello, just an observer. As an ardent, personal supporter of Israel I have hesitated to toe-dip into articles in the topic area, but have read some of these debates with interest, including the WP:ANI. I boldly removed the filer's closing of the WP:ANI discussion as a rather naked conflict-of-interest, was surprised to see it went unchallenged until (properly) re-closed by an administrator. I have never to my knowledge interacted with Nableezy, and I must say this Enforcement filing smacks of vexation. The matter was settled there. Zaathras ( talk) 14:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Nableezy
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2601:C4:C300:1BD0::/64 is warned to avoid making personal attacks and reminded to use dispute resolution. 2601:C4:C300:1BD0::/64 has accepted the warning. — Newslinger talk 06:24, 23 March 2021 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994
Several IP addresses that I think are quite clearly the same editor, another recent one is User:2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075; check the page stats
Discussion concerning 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994The users opposing me repeatedly asked for "reliable sources". I repeatedly provided them with numerous sources which they refused to accept. Now, they want to remove the "Background" section from the article seen here at https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender&oldid=1012358623#Background It appears that I can never appease them. I relented to removing the introductory paragraph laying out the criteria for inclusion. I also relented on removing the vast majority of the 2020 transphobic deaths see at https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender&oldid=1012401252#Trans_Lives_Matter? How much are the opposing parties asking for? 100% exclusion of transphobic deaths. They are politicizing the deaths. Zero compromise, deletions of explanatory paragraphs, purposeful obfuscation, and total removal of the people listed in 2021 without presenting the opposing sides of the argument is biased and not neutral. -- 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 ( talk) 11:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by MJLI was right about to leave the IP user a note about cutting out the personal attacks when I saw this was filed. They really gotta stop with that. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 05:10, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by JPxGSame as MJL, except I actually did give the NPA warning. jp× g 05:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994
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Newslinger
talk 02:56, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
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Sadko and Mikola22 are topic banned from WP:ARBEE. Amanuensis Balkanicus is warned about editing tendentiously. The list of pages suggested Peacemaker67 protected for a year. -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 01:45, 20 March 2021 (UTC) | ||||||||
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Sadko
[4], [5], [6], [7] These all involve removal of negative material from clearly reliable sources from an article Sadko created about a highly controversial recent Serbian film about the Croatian Ustaše Jasenovac concentration camp ( Dara of Jasenovac) between 5 and 25 February this year
Sadko has made quite a number of other appearances on the dramaboards in the time this report covers (since the account was renamed from User:Mm.srb in August 2019) , as the editor being reported or through making gratuitous comments, baiting or casting aspersions regarding others involved in discussions, including:
Since January, I have been largely inactive on WP due to RW stuff, but have been collating material for this report when time allowed, and have only just been able to complete that task.
I've been given a dispensation by Vanamonde93 for going over the usual limits. Long-term POV-pushing is one of the most insidious aspects of Wikipedia, and one with which I have long experience as a content creator and admin in the Balkans subject area. It is hard to counter and it is harder to make a case against its exponents than against editors who cause intense but short-term disruption. I could add many additional diffs of the same sort of editing behaviour. One of the worst aspects of what Sadko has been doing is that their editing is clearly at the core of a significant uptick in highly disruptive and blatant POV-pushing editing and battleground behaviour on former Yugoslavia articles that has been going on for over a year. In that time, in addition to a small group of longer-term pro-Serb/Serbia editors, many IPs and new accounts have appeared to support Sadko’s efforts, either to reinstate Sadko's edits when reverted, or to chip in on talk pages to create the impression of a “consensus” supporting their edits. The meatpuppetry and off-wiki coordination implications are obvious. Equally, Sadko often supports and reinstates edits made by these IPs and new accounts. This has created an environment where editors from other countries in the Balkans have responded in kind, themselves supported by IPs and new accounts, as well as existing POV pushers, particularly pro-Croat/Croatian ones, but also others. My primary subject area is Yugoslavia in World War II, but as you can see from some of the above diffs, Sadko's editing behaviour spreads wider than that into all subjects relating to Serbs and Serbia and their relationships with other former Yugoslav peoples and countries. Sadko’s creation and POV defence of the Dara of Jasenovac article is just the latest in this war against neutrality on Wikipedia. In order to help prevent the high level of disruption and POV-pushing centred on Sadko, I recommend they be topic banned from Balkans and Balkans-related articles for at least six months, with scope to appeal after six months expires if they are able to show that they can edit neutrally in other subject areas in the meantime. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your patience, and apologies in advance for the length of this. The key aspect of long-term POV pushing is that it usually does not cross the line into easily blockable "smoking gun" territory. It needs to be looked at across a considerable period of time, and the restrictions on 20 (or a few more) diffs actively hampers effective reports of it, because only examples can be used. I used 22 diffs over a year and a bit, but I could have provided many more. Long-term POV pushing (which I agree Mikola22 is also involved in, for the record, and which needs to be dealt with) is a consistent pattern of partisan editing behaviour that erodes the Wikipedia pillar of neutrality. Editors that engage in it are trying to minimise negative material about their "side", and maximise negative material about the other "side". The majority of the POV-pushing that has been ramping up in the last year has been coming from Serbophile/Croatophobic or Croatophile/Serbophobic editors, and Sadko and Mikola22 are probably the worst offenders from the respective sides (although there are several others who are not far behind, some of whom have commented here). The numbers of editors pushing their POV and battlegrounding in the Balkans area has, over the last year, become completely unmanageable from an admin perspective due to a high level of disruption, and is significantly eroding the quality of the encyclopaedia in this area. They may well be coming from Croatian Wikipedia (which is a cesspit) and Serbian Wikipedia (which isn't great either). But back to Sadko. If you look at Dara of Jasenovac, not only did Sadko create the article about the film (which was highly promotional from the beginning), but they consistently defended the film from criticism for weeks (as evidenced by the diffs above, and others I did not use), and never added any information about criticism of the film at all. This is absolutely typical of Sadko's editing behaviour, in this case, they are enhancing as much as possible the victim status of Serbs (which is of course entirely correct in the case of the Jasenovac camp and the genocide of Serbs by the Ustasha more generally), while minimising or eliminating completely legitimate and serious criticism of the film and the motives behind it from reliable sources. This is Sadko's default editing position. Sadko claims I am "involved". But am I really? I am trying to ensure articles in this space are neutrally written, and when I disagree with him, others on his side, or editors on the opposing side, protect articles to stop edit wars etc, I am just protecting the neutrality of the encyclopaedia. I have no barrow to push here, and am not aligned with any side, although I have been "accused" of being from every faction of the former Yugoslavia at one point or another. In response to Vanamonde93's specific question: If you look at this edit on 1 December 2020 that you mentioned, Sadko is changing "genocide" by Chetniks (Serb guerillas) to "ethnic cleansing". At this point, the question of genocide vs. ethnic cleansing had been discussed on the talk page in April and May of that year, and any fair reading of the thread (now in the archives, but here) would have concluded that the consensus (if you take out the comments by the later Balkans TBANed WEBDuB and Antidiskriminator (both Serbophiles), and Mikola22 on the Croat side), was that the correct term was genocide, and several reliable sources were provided by those arguing that point (including me). But Sadko ignored this when he made the 1 December 2020 substitution, and it was then the subject of a further discussion at that time ( here), which again resulted in a consensus that genocide was the right term, despite the intense involvement of WEBDuB again (Antidiskriminator had been TBANed by this stage). When the matter was raised yet again in late December 2020 as an RfC (the continual rehashing of disputes where a consensus has already emerged is frankly exhausting), it was closed in support of the description of it as genocide. So, Sadko was acting against an existing consensus in 1 December 2020, and that consensus has been confirmed twice since. In conclusion, the TBANing of Sadko (and Mikola22 for that matter) would significantly reduce the ridiculous amount of POV-pushing and battlegrounding going on in the Balkans space by editors trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS against their "side", something that has been going on at intense levels for over a year and is eroding the quality of the encyclopaedia in this space due to the constant undermining of neutrality, a core content policy. Rosguill has suggested that liberal application of temporary TBANs may help establish higher standards of editing behaviour, and I heartily endorse that approach. When it comes to POV-pushers in this area, like WEBDuB and Antidiskriminator, TBANs have been the only thing that has worked. In my nine or so years here, Wikipedia hasn't been good at dealing with long-term POV pushing in the Balkans; it took years for Antidiskriminator to get indefinitely TBANed despite his outrageous POV-pushing behaviour and multiple reports. Any editors TBANed as a result of this report will get the opportunity to show that they can edit neutrally in areas outside the Balkans, and in six months they can ask for it to be lifted if they have demonstrated they can do it. If they have, I will support their return. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 11:29, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Here are my thoughts on articles that could do with long-term semi-protection in the first instance. They are not in priority order:
There are almost certainly others, and some of these are less active, but they all have bouts of edit warring and IP disruption. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 07:17, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SadkoStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SadkoI was and am here to build an encyclopedia, and I did so for a number of years, improving subjects and articles which were in poor state, and sometimes tagged for +10 years. I do not claim that my editing is perfect or anything of the sort, but the text posted above takes it to a whole new level. Most of the diffs presented have been cherrypicked and taken out of context, by an administrator, no less, with whom I had several strong disputes and disagreements in the past. Out of the diffs presented across many years and months of editing, I am guilty of 1 ad hominem comment made after the IP edits which pushed fringe viewpoints on Nikola Tesla for several years. I can also understand that there is this interesting idea being introduced in the report, which pretty much states that my ban will somehow magically lead to things being calmer, during the time that the editor making the report is absent. That is both naive and offensive. It serves as means to present me as the main cause of the supposed chaos, which was ever-present in the Balkans-related topic to begin with. It is even more irrational considering that I have been hounded and harassed by persistent disruptive IP editors.
Another thing, it just seems weird to ban 1 editor from editing about, for example, culture/art history/geography of the Balkans or any other region, if their edits, which are presented as disruptive, have all been about history in the first place. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 04:27, 8 March 2021 (UTC) @ Mikola22:]
I'll try to answer as short as I can. This is my reply to the second post by PM.
Statement by Mikola22@Amanuensis Balkanicus, it is enough to see editor Sadko's report against me on WP:AE. Review of that report from administrator Peacemaker67 has shown that there is nothing or very little in report. This was bad faith report. As for the second attempt ANI (2021), and the merging some of my statements from the past(2019) in Nazi context, I have explained that a hundred times. Krunoslav Draganović, which is the biggest Ustasha and Nazi for you, Sadko and others for me in 2019 was a historian esteemed in the Croatian Church, quoted in many Croatian school papers, presented in libraries by leading peoples of the Catholic Church in Croatia, even Noel Malcolm use his sources. I don’t know about his Nazism at that time and I don’t know how you can’t understand that? Regarding "Ustaše on meta.wiki" I didn't mention the Ustashas anywhere. At that time the source which was on Cro wiki in some article, some editor on meta.wiki exposed as a problem of Cro wiki. I thought at that time(2019) that it was RS and since I supported Cro wiki I also supported their decision to use that source because I didn't know at that time what actually mean RS although I never read that source. For me at that time every source is RS. I was also ask for negative reviews of that source and no one, not even you or Sadko who were there exposed this negative reviews. To summarize, from your answer it is clear that attacks based on artificial facts continue against me and that I am only one on your mind. Anyone who neutrally evaluate your accusations against me, you accuse as my support which clearly shows yours bad faith in relation to me but also disrespect for administrators. I don't think that's right. Mikola22 ( talk) 21:57, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
@
Khirurg: @ Rosguill: you know I will respect every decision, but still you have to be aware that I came among them 5 or 6 editors, also I was very inexperienced because I didn't know what wikipedia actually is and they used this situation well. I think that two of these 5 or 6 editors are blocked, the third would be editor Nicoljaus who worked for some period in tandem with Sadko, and Sadko as the fourth is close too. If I were from beginning in interaction only with editor Sadko and not with all of them I certainly wouldn’t have so many reports and edit wars because they all worked together. So we are not completely equal to share common punishment. Also as we hear from them, when I came to wikipedia they all started getting into trouble and slowly disappear from wikipedia? They worked here in good faith for years and then some anonymous(Mikola22) person with hundreds of sources, information's, checking the sources from articles, removing OR information's etc, disrupted their good faith conception? Yes there were mistakes but I think a lot of good has been done. Mikola22 ( talk) 22:17, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by JoyAs mentioned above, I've noticed the issues with this user's behavior myself, and I'm only posting in a separate section in an effort to avoid any appearance of impropriety. In short, yes, having people editing in this topic area while they can't seem to follow some basic tenets of Wikipedia and rules of the contentious topic area in particular - is pointless. For example, we shouldn't have to keep explaining what should be the glaringly obvious rules on the basic integrity of reproducing what sources say like I had to do here. Or what's an ancient primary source and what's a modern secondary source, like I had to do here. Add in advocating for biased pamphlets masquerading as articles and then railing against evil admins who are out to get them, like it happened here, well that's just depressingly bad. A non-trivial volume of (fairly ridiculous) Balkan edit warring is going on at en: practically all the time - indeed whoever follows up on the links above will notice that often times it was interactions with editors who have since been rightfully blocked for various policy violations. The 'warring' parties feed off one another's ridiculousness, and create what seems to be a perpetually toxic environment. If an editor has 25k edits under their belt and still has to be moderated in this regard, then that is a lost cause and a waste of volunteer time and effort. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:42, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Rosguill thank you for coming back to the point. I am entirely unamused to see the discussion spammed to death again just like the last time I had contact with this matter. This is basically gaming the system to death - an abuse that is pretty much obvious is met by kilobytes upon kilobytes of wikilawyering. And that is both by allies and enemies of the accused! Apparently they all sense that keeping the waters muddy is the main trick here. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 20:43, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Amanuensis BalkanicusThis will be lengthy, but it extensively dissects the points raised by Peacemaker67, and I promise you, is well worth the read. Sadko is a user who's been editing Wikipedia far longer than anyone likely to comment here, including Peacemaker67 (and excluding Joy). Full disclosure: I've worked with PM67 for around a decade and together we promoted 3 or 4 articles to FA status and several others to GA. I've always considered him a constructive editor, although we've had minor disagreements in the past. By early 2020, my perception of PM67 began to change, because when push came to shove, PM67 began to almost invariably side with " Croatian POV editors " (his words, not mine) in content disputes. After his six-month topic ban in January, WEBDuB (an editor I believe is Serbian) appealed to PM67, but the latter told him he supported the topic ban until WEBDuB could "demonstrate he could edit neutrally." [60] This all seemed rather peculiar to me, given that PM67 has treated the Croatian editor Mikola22, whose editing is far more problematic than WEBDuB's or Sadko's, with kid gloves time and time again, using his considerable clout as an admin to ensure he evades sanctions. This comment defending Mikola is from the other day. [61] This glaring double standard was noted by Griboski shortly after WEBDuB's topic ban. [62] A few months ago, PM67 also came to Mikola22's rescue in an AN/I and argued that Mikola's outbursts had been misconstrued because English wasn't his first language. The diffs in which Mikola said those awful things were from 2019, and thus "stale", PM67 said. [63] Water under the bridge. Let bygones be bygones. But with Sadko? Then it's perfectly acceptable to cherrypick diffs from 2019 and use them to portray Sadko in the worst possible light, first language and age of diffs be damned. Mighty convenient, chief. Let's take a look at PM67's "evidence" of Sadko's supposed malign behaviour:
In conclusion, literally everything Sadko has ever-so-dubiously been accused of here is either something that is standard fare in this part of en.wiki or has been done by the vast majority of Balkan users who have commented here or are likely to comment here. All in all, this report is quite disappointing, not least because PM67 is a longtime admin, who (in theory, at least) is supposed to be impartial and "above all that", especially when it comes to petty regional quarrels as we've been seeing over the past 18 months. Not to mention the incredibly poor quality of evidence that's been put forth. A great big nothing-burger all around. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 20:07, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by KhirurgSadki has been editing productively since 2008 and has generally managed to stay out of trouble, and has kept a clean block log since 2019. He performs valuable work on badly neglected topics such as Serbian cinema and arts; for instance, he has created over 70 articles on Serbian art personalities [89]. He has not violated 3RR, nor does he regularly game the 3 revert limit.
Statement by Maleschreiber
Statement by Vacant0I can't really tell if the environment around Balkan-related topics has been improved over the course of past six months since I've been trying to stay out of them ever since I made my account. What I have noticed is that since the beginning of this year there has been more POV pushing by all sides, and because of it I had to step in somewhere even though I didn't want to. I don't think that it's worth for me to make statements about Sadko's unacceptable behavior because other editors already proved some point. Sadko has been here for over 10 years now and there is no doubt that he might did something wrong in the past, but I personally think that he isn't that type of an editor to do these unacceptable edits on purpose. I've been following Sadko's edits since the beginning of this year because he has been involved in some of the Balkan-related topics and I generally can't see any POV pushing by him. I'm pretty sure that I'm not wrong but if I am you can correct me on this one. I think that my comment won't make any difference here but I personally wanted to comment on this situation because I saw similar and worse editing by user Mikola22 but I'm not sure if his edits have been discussed before. Vacant0 ( talk) 12:30, 11 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by Santasa99It’s hard to be concise at the same time and work out something elaborate that should show a wide range of violations - in terms of behavior and content. The toxicity of the Balkan scope can hardly be tolerated, and the root of all the problems is, of course, the emotional attachment to local identities, which editors cannot or do not want to control. I’ll try to put together a statement in as few words as possible and as few “diffs” as possible, and if any administrator finds it interesting, I’ll provide clarifications.
First to contrast these enormous defensive walls of text of Sadkos tag-team buddies, such as Amanuensis Balkanicus (AB) (
this illustrates existence of exclusive circle,
[112]→
[113], or how they together suspect Mikola from time to time
[114]→
[115]→
[116],
[117]→
[118] (there is Sadko's attempt to get rid of Mikola in one such report, which closing admins called weaponization of the process but Sadko escaped with warning); this didn't stop Sadko from trolling my own TP uninvited for reason they perceived as similar (I never respond to such requests, though):
[119]); false equalization by insisting on "POV pushing on all sides"; noticeable attempt to distract this report by redirecting attention from Sadko to Mikola (who else), while questioning Peacemaker's integrity as a neutral editor and admin by all three parties, Sadko, AB and Khirurg - so, let it be registered that AB is not neutral agent and that his agency as a pusher of Serbian perspective (POV) on Balkans topics (history, Yugoslav Wars, and so on), is felt, for instance, when they found themselves implicated in meatpuppetiering with messages
like this to Sadko, regarding
this, they removed the AB's message immediately and went to help; or
like this, where AB asking Sadko for support against admin Drmies' concerns after the issue was raised by Maleschreiber.
Drmies warned AB of canvassing and both, AB and Sadko, of Sadko peculiar method of disruption is changing scope where arguments fail. In article List of Serbian painters, I tried to remove painters who do not belong to the list because they are not related to Serbia, but Sadko restored these items (painters) twice, and on third revert they did
this, with an edit-summary, Another problematic issue is following (hounding): me - Sadko I complained many times since late 2019, at least twice at user's TP: first time, and again. Few examples: instead of individual diffs I offer my User contribution page filtered between 02:13, 20 June 2020 and 23:58, 20 June 2020 where it can be observed editor jumping from page to page behind me; me - Sadko. I could provide more diffs on this problem if necessary, also in case of other editors being followed by Sadko, if that would be appropriate.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99° 21:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
As a side note: as far as I can tell, there are no Bosnian Muslim and Montenegrin editors currently that I know of, who would be editing on the contentious subject (of Balkan history, culture and politics); there are at least three times more editors editing with Serbian slant then those who edit from the explicit Croat bias. In the last couple of years some of the worst violators in the users-names of Zoupan and AnulBanul (Serbian and Croatian sockpuppetiers), Shokatz and Ceha (blocked, Croatian), Antidiskriminator and WEBDuB (banned, Serbian), are now gone. However, we lost invaluable members who self-imposed premature "retirement" on themselves, due to their refusal to participate in editing under such a toxic atmosphere - an examples I encountered are/were likes of Ivan Štambuk (whose invaluable contribution (expertise really) in sphere of Serbo-Croatian linguistic gave en.wiki and its articles on the subject credibility with correct info based on local and international mainstream scholarship), Timbuktu, Director or Producer (not sure anymore who between them), Potočnik, to name a few more. Needless to say, they were on the opposite side from "all" other POV-pusher groups, "all" being just two groups really (Serbian and Croatian), Ivan in particular - bottom line, they all left because of persisting toxicity and lack of strong, close oversight. If I am really correct in my observation, then, it significantly undermines usual claptrap about "all sides pushing their POV's equally" and evermore common trope that under Balkan scope locals are all more-less steeped in nationalistic bias and tribal quarrels. A curiosity, though, is that locally neutral POV always existed and is related to application of Serbo-Croatian, or more commonly Yugoslav, lens through which one perceive more commonalities than differences between Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks (Muslims), Bosnians (Bosnianandherzegovinians), and Montenegrins, in both real life and in project - with that being said, all of these editors that came to my mind, with enough certainty can be recognized as Croatian, which means that Croatian editors come from both camps, pro-Croatian and nationalist, and neutral and anti-nationalist, where I have yet to encounter Serbian editors who belong to the later camp. With this in mind, admins shouldn't lose from sight the fact that this report is filed by outsider, whose credibility as neutral editor and admin with integrity that can not be doubted. Finally, evaluation of which state (Croatia or Serbia) inject more nationalism in its respective society is unnecessary distraction, potentially even harmful for editors as naive as Mikola, who may feel that they can correct Ymblanter observation, and in doing so, in good faith but their weak English, compromise them self even more.--
౪ Santa ౪
99° 22:30, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Griboski
Statement by ResnjariThere is a strong case for @Sadko receiving a topic ban on all Balkan topics. Peacemaker67 has made a succinct case and Maleschreiber has presented additional examples. As not to tread ground they already covered, i will note one recent interaction with @Sadko and myself when it came to the article about Niš city and the etymology of its name. I added content based on WP:RS, about its placename formation via reliable scholarship discussing that partial formation through early medieval (proto) Albanian-Slavic linguistic contact. The bit about the role of Albanian was removed by @Sadko [123] who said it was an "irrelevant piece of trivia and WP:OR, Ancient Greek it is." The bit about Ancient Greek was not contested or removed, only elaborated upon how certain other linguistic input and changes resulted in its final present form. So then why is it "trivia"? Because Albanian is mentioned? So i reverted Sadko [124]. Sadko responded with an edit where he reinterpreted the Albanian of the sources to mean Illyrian and wrote it as such [125]. That smacked of WP:OR. I had to point out the sources made no such claim and readjusted accordingly and out of courtesy kept much of @Sadko's wording from previous edits [126]. The sentence on the name etymology achieved its current form after some more edits on the page by other editors and myself. At the same time this issue did bleed into the History of Niš page. Here a similar cycle was begun by @Sadko's edit [127] and then responded to by Ktrimi991. However administrator Drmies opened a thread [128] in the talkpage after seeing both @Sadko's and @Ktrimi's edit summaries as they "tickled my fancy, as did Sadko's edit summary". I engaged in the talkpage, so did other involved editors and admin @Drmies. @Sadko never once bothered to engage in the talkpage to explain or make the case about reasons for exclusion. The reason I bring this Niš placename example up is the rationale for content exclusion and reverts by @Sadko was not based on something substantive like policy or guidelines, but "triva" and so on. What is one to make of that apart from WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS editing. And this sadly has echoes of 2017 when the same matter at the History of Niš was contested by @Antidiskriminator on grounds that "undo POV pushing of Greater Albanian autochtonous mythology per WP:BRD. Take it to the talkpage to gain consensus" [129]. The talkpage discussion imploded into toxic farce [130]. My point is @Peacemaker67 is a good judge of character and is one of the few brave enough administrators willing to engage with the Balkans topic area and deal with hotheads. @Antidiskriminator was topic banned for nationalist editing after years of problematic behavior only when his editing was put under the spotlight by @Peacemaker67 in this forum. So when @Sadko is brought here by @Peacemaker67 and edits by @Sadko exhibit WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS with WP:BATTLEGROUND characteristics, isn't it time for a proper long topic ban? And not a short one of some weeks or months. As some have said, Sadko is an editor harking back to 2008. The problems have increased, not decreased. Who is to say we won’t be here again and again. Resnjari ( talk) 09:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC) Result concerning Sadko
Since these three diffs span a range of 15 months, it would suffice to issue a reminder for Sadko to
focus on article content, not editor conduct, in
content disputes.
As it is likely that editors will add more comments to the existing discussion, here is some general advice for participating on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard:
Looking at
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive232 § Capitals00, I see that there is precedent for issuing topic bans on all editors who exhibit a long-term pattern of
battleground behavior in a topic area covered under discretionary sanctions, regardless of whether the reported edits are sanctionable when viewed in isolation. Based on this, I support Ymblanter's "scorched earth" recommendation, with a change: per Bishonen, indefinite topic bans are preferable to time-limited topic bans, since the affected editors would be required to make constructive edits in a less contentious topic area before appealing. An indefinite topic ban for both Sadko and Mikola22 from Eastern Europe and the Balkans would raise the standard of conduct expected of all editors in the topic area. —
Newslinger
talk 03:23, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
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The facts in the case don't match the claim. There was an RFC, OgamD218's edit appears to be consistent with the RFC AND their edit summary clearly invited others to tweak if they felt necessary. No action taken against OgamD218 in this case. I would warn FDW777 that when they file an AE/AN/ANI case, they need to more careful that the claims are substantiated by the facts. Note, this doesn't mean the edit is "perfect", as this is a BLP, and subject to more than just the RFC, as our policy on BLP applies, but any shortcomings can be addressed through the normal editing and discussion process. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:40, 20 March 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning OgamD218
The RFC was closed stating there was general consensus for inclusion, but with the specific caveat stating However, the exact wording and precisely how to present the information, such as how or whether to contrast it with her denial, has not yet been determined and can still be discussed. The first hasty addition by another editor was reverted citing that exact caveat, yet it was ignored completely and restored without any attempt at discussion. This editor has a history of tendentious editing in the Troubles area, see for example the discussion at Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army#Terrorist Designation, especially the sub-section at Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army#"No, all of my edits were originally fully referenced and accurately represented". FDW777 ( talk) 11:18, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning OgamD218Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by OgamD218It appears this has been resolved favorably, which I'm grateful for, but feel I should get several facts on the record: - The Good Faith policy was abused by FDW who outright lied in their report. I ask admins to please look more closely at the background of this, incl the RfC and
ANI discussion by
CeltBrowne. No major dispute existed, - The edit i restored wasn't made "in haste", this is a lie, it was in the RfC. - FDW made a false report under a false basis, the issues here have nothing to do with The Troubles, FDW uses threats of sanctions for breaching the 1RR to bully other editors even in instances where it shouldn't apply. - I don't have - FDW does have a history of tendentious editing in the Troubles area, in addition to this incident specifically,
the PIRA page linked was denied GAN by
Peacemaker67 bc, referring to FDW, - The tactics FDW used here and uses regularly should be addressed. I ask the admims here to please look more closely at this, as pointed out by
Dennis Brown -
2¢ Statement by SunriseTo be clear, as the one who wrote the text being quoted, the statement is not intended to imply that the information has to remain out of the article until agreement on the text is reached. It may also be relevant to note that this AE request follows the opening of an ANI discussion by a different editor. Sunrise ( talk) 15:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by Nil EinneI'm not involved and don't wish to be involved in this dispute in any way. But as I pointed out at ANI, it might IMO be acceptable for FDW777 to revert an addition if they had started a discussion explaining why they feel the addition was a problem and preferably suggesting how it needs to be improved. I might even agree that while that discussion was ongoing, the text shouldn't have been re-added. But with the RfC, FDW777 cannot IMO just revert an addition and demand others start a discussion. While I normally think disputes where both party are demanding the other start a discussion rather than being the one to start one themselves, are silly, in this case the ball is clearly in FDW777's court to start a discussion. Any addition seems to be trying to fulfill the consensus achieved and therefore can be taken as an improvement not explicitly needing discussion. If FDW777 feels the proposed addition is a problem they need to explain why, rather than expecting someone else to explain why there needs to be a change as we have already established the that. Nil Einne ( talk) 09:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning OgamD218
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Nothing new has been presented as evidence, and the events given have already been reviewed by the community as a whole. Timothy is basically appealing the outcome of an ANI discussion, but the rationale is simply that he didn't like the outcome. Since he has not provided us with a substantiated conflict, mistake or other fatal flaw in the close, it would be inappropriate for us to review. In fact, this is simply a second bite of the apple. As such, the appeal should be denied. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:55, 20 March 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy
I believe this is the appropriate and latest version of AE sanctions for Palestine-Israel articles
Per "You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs" I link to this ANI discussion [131]. It contains an abundance of diffs and comments, and the recent discussions on this talk page [132]
I write this reluctantly as I've largely decided to leave, but I returned this afternoon to see if anyone had closed the recent ANI thread here. I expected no action, but to my surprise Wikieditor19920 had received a topic ban and Nableezy had received a "final warning". I definitely do not believe a "final warning" is adequate given the entire situation and that this is a DS area, and I cannot see how this outcome is anywhere near equitable. Wikieditor19920 may well merit a topic ban given the entirety of the circumstances, but for them to receive a topic ban while Nableezy skates away with a warning is beyond believable (but it does validate my thinking about the dysfunctional mess at ANI). Yesterday I was planning to post to AE for a review and was waiting for the ANI thread to close because I've seen AE requests rejected because of an open ANI, but several admins had seen multiple editors requests to close and move to AE and not taken action and the situation continued to get worse. I came to the conclusion this entire mess was a waste of time, no one was taking the mater seriously and walked away. But because I think this is an inadequate and inequitable outcome, I am requesting the conduct of Nableezy be reviewed by AE. That the ANI report was allowed to spiral out of control (again) is absolutely inexcusable; its outrageous editors cannot expect orderly civil discussions at ANI. I think AE needs to consider the discussions as a whole to determine if DE/TE is a problem. I ask that the discussion at ANI and at Talk:Arab states–Israeli alliance against Iran as the most recent be examined in this regard. If Nableezy's editing is acceptable, this should be made clear to all; if it is not acceptable, it merits a topic ban since this is a DS area. If Wikipedia allows a Lord of the Flies atmosphere to reign, they will get editors that thrive in this type of environment and will continue to lose editors that want an orderly civil atmosphere to build and improve. One final note: If you look at their user page you will see the collapsed section "A trip down memory lane". Along with the comment here You can consider me perpetually aware of the sanctions lol., AE should consider why this is posted if there is a message and attitude here about ANI and AE. // Timothy :: talk 23:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning NableezyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NableezyI already received a logged warning for all this. And I acknowledged how thin the ice I skate on is, and I acknowledged my own shortcomings both in that ANI and in past edits. Not sure what else I am supposed to add here. I dont think Ive done anything wrong at Talk:Arab states–Israeli alliance against Iran, Timothy has been upset that I decline to wait a month to remove what even he agrees is material that fails verification. Our standards for content get more stringent in contested areas, not more lax, and the idea that we should retain potentially false material for a month doesnt have any policy basis and so I declined to follow that plan. I dont see how linking to an entire talk page is useful either in showing problematic conduct, but if there is some specific diff there that somebody would like me to address please let me know. nableezy - 23:41, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by HuldraTimothyBlue: You really need to post some diffs here, preferably some diffs that hasn't come up before (and which gave Nableezy a logged warning.) I believe Double jeopardy still holds? Huldra ( talk) 23:53, 19 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by Nil EinneI agree with those who suggest it is problematic to ask for a different outcome at AE than one that was achieved at ANI from the same evidence. But also, what I saw at ANI is that in a short space of time, TimothyBlue went from supporting a topic ban of both, to then supporting the eventual outcome, to now demanding action against nableezy again. There's nothing wrong with that but TimothyBlue surely you can provide some diffs from those 2 days or so when you came to your final conclusion rather than expecting people to read a very long ANI etc to find whatever it is that lead to that conclusion. I mean what's the point of people reading stuff from the part which would lead the your middle conclusion i.e. in support of the outcome you are now unhappy about? Nil Einne ( talk) 12:54, 20 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by ZaathrasHello, just an observer. As an ardent, personal supporter of Israel I have hesitated to toe-dip into articles in the topic area, but have read some of these debates with interest, including the WP:ANI. I boldly removed the filer's closing of the WP:ANI discussion as a rather naked conflict-of-interest, was surprised to see it went unchallenged until (properly) re-closed by an administrator. I have never to my knowledge interacted with Nableezy, and I must say this Enforcement filing smacks of vexation. The matter was settled there. Zaathras ( talk) 14:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Nableezy
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2601:C4:C300:1BD0::/64 is warned to avoid making personal attacks and reminded to use dispute resolution. 2601:C4:C300:1BD0::/64 has accepted the warning. — Newslinger talk 06:24, 23 March 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994
Several IP addresses that I think are quite clearly the same editor, another recent one is User:2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075; check the page stats
Discussion concerning 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994The users opposing me repeatedly asked for "reliable sources". I repeatedly provided them with numerous sources which they refused to accept. Now, they want to remove the "Background" section from the article seen here at https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender&oldid=1012358623#Background It appears that I can never appease them. I relented to removing the introductory paragraph laying out the criteria for inclusion. I also relented on removing the vast majority of the 2020 transphobic deaths see at https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender&oldid=1012401252#Trans_Lives_Matter? How much are the opposing parties asking for? 100% exclusion of transphobic deaths. They are politicizing the deaths. Zero compromise, deletions of explanatory paragraphs, purposeful obfuscation, and total removal of the people listed in 2021 without presenting the opposing sides of the argument is biased and not neutral. -- 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:656A:420D:A1FA:7075 ( talk) 11:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by MJLI was right about to leave the IP user a note about cutting out the personal attacks when I saw this was filed. They really gotta stop with that. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 05:10, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Statement by JPxGSame as MJL, except I actually did give the NPA warning. jp× g 05:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning 2601:C4:C300:1BD0:4C8F:CA4A:AD98:6994
—
Newslinger
talk 02:56, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
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