CutePeach is indefinitely topic banned from the Origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. If the disruption moves to another sub-topic of COVID-19, this topic ban can be extended to the full topic area by any univolved administrator. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 01:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning CutePeach
Wikipedia:General sanctions/COVID-19#Application notes Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Appropriate sources
None I'm aware of
Per COVID-19 GS (now included under DS): "Editors are reminded that the onus is on the editor seeking to include disputed content to achieve consensus for its inclusion. Any content or source removed in good faith and citing a credible policy-based rationale should not be reinstated without prior consensus on the article's talk page." Per Pseudoscience ArbCom decision: "4a) Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources require that information included in an article have been published in a reliable source which is identified and potentially available to the reader. What constitutes a reliable source varies with the topic of the article, but in the case of a scientific theory, there is a clear expectation that the sources for the theory itself are reputable textbooks or peer-reviewed journals. Scientific theories promulgated outside these media are not properly verifiable as scientific theories and should not be represented as such." Editor appears to have violated both counts, despite explicit reminder of sanctions.
Discussion concerning CutePeachStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CutePeachThe three diffs that Bakkster Man provided in his case filing - as others here have noted - do not show any violations, as I only added high quality secondary sources which cited the prepreint, and not the preprint itself. The list of 21 diffs provided by Shibbolethink which allege a number of violations - as others here have noted - are spurious. I have been advised by one very well meaning administrator to just explain that I always meant well and to express regret for being too insistent
[2] - which I was planning on doing - but a senior editor participating here accused him of advising me to I joined Wikipedia at a time
WP:MEDRS was being abused by some editors as a sourcing restriction to
WP:CENSOR the lab leak hypothesis from Wikipedia, and as this case indicates, there now seems to be an effort to use
WP:SCHOLARSHIP to As a final note, I would also like to apologize to anyone who truly felt offended by anything I said, as I was quite harsh to some editors, including some who have changed their mind on covering the subject. I would like to give a special thanks to DGG for being kind throughout this process, and to ProcrastinatingReader for changing his mind on covering this subject. I wish you all the best. CutePeach ( talk) 04:40, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Statement by ToBeFree
Statement by Mr ErnieIf Bakkster Man is going to report editors for allegedly failing to follow ONUS, then they should probably not also be doing the exact same thing. So let's just cut right to it - this is nothing more than an attempt to remove an editor with an opposing viewpoint from the topic area. Mr Ernie ( talk) 14:05, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@
CaptainEek: re: I think CutePeach should consider not posting a response here, as the same involved editors are openly collaborating about this filing with the same wall of text tactics that are deployed in the topic areas directly. This is a simple issue and quick look at the diffs reveals 2 editors in a minor edit war. As a final point, ToBeFree, can you please indicate your status as involved or uninvolved, given your comments in the discussion area here (the tu quoque comments), admin area here (the request for diffs which were never given and the block), talk pages, and user talk pages (the de facto topic ban) and recent admin actions? I will close by saying that we really ought not to succor weaponized content DS filings. Mr Ernie ( talk) 03:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
AE is a confusing and often Kafka-esque process even for experienced editors. CutePeach is a promising editor with only 4 months tenure here so far. There’s an overwhelming amount of words to respond to from editors loquacious both here and at the relevant article talk pages. CutePeach’s statement is sure to be picked through with a fine tooth comb so I am willing to cut them some slack for any delays. (Post made 11:41 25 July but unsigned) A handful of talk page posts coming off the top of the head are easy and fast. Imagine being a new editor and seeing these massive, over the word limit walls of text. Where are the admins and editors who help new users? Where are the admins who help clerk AE? Mr Ernie ( talk) 12:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by AtsmeI agree with Mr Ernie for the most part, and I'll add that I'm not seeing any justification for removal of the material that was added in GF by CutePeach, aside from IDONTLIKEIT by the reverting editor. Did I overlook something? Tagging the material with citation needed or something similar instead of removing it would have been a better option, or better yet, taking the time to cite a better source, rather than bringing a case here. I consider such behavior the antithesis to collaboration. The article in question is not a BLP that requires immediate removal of material without any attempt to find a better source, or to at least discuss it amicably. The reverting editor should neither have first advantage, nor should we consider their revert automatically justified based on a technicality without first considering IAR, and CONTEXT which is paramount when determining a source's reliability. It has been argued that the lab leak hypothesis is politically motivated, and that possibly media "has fallen victim to a misinformation campaign" as stated in this BMJ article. Regardless of what side of the argument one is on, the hypothesis is notable, and so are the substantial views that have been published by reliable media. The sources used do not have to pass WP:MEDRS in this case, and I think the claim of unreliable needs closer scrutiny. Atsme 💬 📧 16:04, 22 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by RandomCanadianBeyond the rather mundane edit-warring, in clear violation of expected standards, especially in an area under DS, CP's persistent uncivility and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality - evidenced both by their actions on articles and their recent ramblings on Tobias' talk page (where they accuse me, PaleoNeonate, and unspecified admins of conspiring to silence them... [17] [18]), as well as their refusal to follow the most basic content policies (AGF applies to behaviour not to article content: unsourced, poorly sourced or non-neutral and undue content must be challenged, as per WP:V and WP:NPOV, no matter what one thinks of the intentions of the editor who included it - what applies here is WP:ONUS). Additionally, I note that CP is well aware of the issues with their editing, having notably been warned of it previously by Shibbolethink ( [19]) Them continuing on this path despite this is evidence they are digging their own hole, and, unlike Jule Verne or Dante, their voyage into the abyss is unlikely to have any redeeming literary quality. A full, prolonged topic ban is likely in order. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 17:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
References
Statement by Francesco espoRandomCanadian inserted a secondary source (Science Based Medicine) citing an unpublished preprint (Sørensen et al), and Bakkster Man did not object to it, as he wasn’t aware it was an unpublished preprint. When CutePeach pointed this out to defend her inclusion of secondary sources (MIT Technology Review) citing a preprint, Bakkster Man had already reverted her edit and opened this case. Mr Ernie then removed the Sørensen et al as undue [26], but Bakkster Man reinstate it as due [27], but then Bakkster Man realizing his mistake and delete the whole paragraph [28]. Bakkster Man reverted CutePeach seven seconds after she explained her inclusion on the talk page, so he couldn’t have possibly read it, and he made a fool of himself here. It is clear for all to see this was premeditated. Francesco espo ( talk) 20:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC) This is hilarious, RandomCanadian is in the house [29], but he still doesn’t realize the Science Based Medicine source he cited cites Sorensen et all (same as Deiglish's preprint). I wonder if ToBeFree knows what’s going on. I don’t think he does. DGG are you seeing this? Francesco espo ( talk) 20:47, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by FeralOinkHello,
Francesco espo and Mr. Ernie (or is it Dr?) and other somewhat sane people here. In the interest of transparency, I am replying here rather than on your talk page, lest I be accused of canvassing or such. Yes, that is hilarious. (Imagine an emoji with rolling eyes and another with lol face). I didn't realize that
CutePeach was another lady like me. We are NOT WP:CHEESE! (Thank you for using proper They, the random Canadian (Redacted) et al are being horrible to CutePeach! She has to translate these INTERMINABLY LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG walls of text from English to Tagalog and back. I gave up on making appeals to DGG after reading what he said on the GoF article talk page here:
that it was absurd to suggest that the government of China does bioterrorism (or maybe biowarfare?) research. The US government does bioterrorism/biowarfare research, as do most of the G7 countries. If we have to edit Wikipedia based on the assumption that China is like, um, Monaco regarding self-defense and hegemony, then it is hopeless to make any meaningful contribution at all. The gap between the real world and Wikipedia is becoming vast. Dr. Fauci is being written up for lying to Congress while giving sworn testimony about Dazak, EcoHealth, and funding to WIV, yet Wikipedia is still bickering about even mentioning the possibility that the coronavirus was a lab leak or a (unintentional or intentional) release of GoF research. Meanwhile, the article about
ZyCoV-D I am extremely disgruntled and am ranting here. This isn't WP:IDONTLIKEIT or what-about-ism. It is absolutely necessary to apply consistent standards regarding sources and fairness. That has all flown out the window. Lots of editors are being intolerant and horrible, uh WP:TENDENTIOUS and will not relent. Look, y'all got your way about Donald Trump, and inserted ridiculous redundant verbiage e.g. "false disproven conspiracy theories" or continuing to say that
Statement by ShibbolethinkI think Bakkster Man is frustrated with this editor's activity in general. The specific diffs he has offered don't encapsulate all of CutePeach's problematic behavior. See below ArbE I was preparing: Diffs of problematic behavior by CutePeach
Summary of thoughts on CutePeachIn summary: CutePeach has engaged in tendentious editing, as shown by the following: A) USTHEM SOAPBOXing asserting “a campaign” exists against them/their opinions, B) General SOAPBOXing about COVID origins and how Wikipedia is not reflecting the “truth”, because of our reliance on policies that CutePeach disagrees with, C) casting ASPERSIONS in multiple directions in a pattern that appears targeted to discourage certain POVs from contributing, D) personal attacks against editors (including myself), belittling a lack of “competence” and intelligence, E) escalation of many disputes to an overall dispute about the topic and consistent BATTLEGROUNDing, F) a consistent, unrelenting argument that the mainstream scientific POV about COVID origins should not be included in our articles. On a more personal note, dealing with this user has made me step back from Wiki, in an exact encapsulation of WP:QUIT/ WP:RANDY/ WP:CHEESE. The user has argued repeatedly that my PhD in Virology is a reason why I should not be trusted to edit these articles (see above). While many of the other pro-leak editors and anti-leak editors have come to consensus editing the new COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis article, this user has not. As I have described above, they, at some point, decided consensus was not the goal, and instead the goal was pushing their POV. To make this abundantly clear: I have no problem with people who believe in the lab leak. I am happy to edit alongside such users. Several such editors and I have come to agreement in how to achieve consensus via compromise, working together. CutePeach appears emphatically...vitriolically...indignantly... not interested. Recommend indef topic ban and short-term block.-- Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 22:40, 22 July 2021 (UTC) (edited 17:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)) Other notes
Statement by DervorguillaIt looks like CutePeach may have been attempting to find an acceptable solution through a combination of adaptive editing and good-faith discussion. (See EDITCON flowchart.) Each of the 3 listed edits does seem responsive to the ongoing discussion, if less than perfectly so. Also, it seems intuitive that in this article the added information was not "represented as" a scientific theory but as a hypothesis. ("A proposed explanation, supported by evidence, that serves as a starting point for investigation" — Black’s Law Dictionary.) MEDDEF likewise suggests that peer-reviewed sources may not be needed here:
Dervorguilla ( talk) 23:21, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Novem Linguae
I would support some kind of sanction. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 03:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by DGGThe basic problem is the persistent efforts by editors other than CutePeach to avoid covering the topic entirely, despite world wide major press coverage. As normal at WP, this had taken the form of attempts to find objections to the sourcing, even when the sources are such a would normally be accepted for topics of this nature. CP's reaction to this has sometime been a little unmeasured, ad worded more contentiously than I would have done. But in view of the nature of the utter rejection of the fundamental WP policy of WP:NPOV with which she has been contending, it's understandable, as a response to the specious arguments on the other side. It's especially unfortunate that this AE request has been brought at the very time when the various editors involved have mostly been approaching consensus about how to handle the subject, guided by the RfC on the applicability of MEDRES. I see this as a last-ditch attempt to avoid covering what has become a major political question--or, that having failed, to avoid covering it properly. I'm not blaming the party who has brought this request, nor am I mentioning any other names. because they're by no means the only one involved, just as CP is by no means the only one who has been trying to get NPOV coverage. I think we should not escalate this, because the normal WP methods are working--even though they have been working with exceptional slowness and difficulty. I can not endorse everything CP has said, but I certainly do endorse her efforts. She perhaps needs at most a reminder that the answer to unfair tactics is not to indulge in rhetorical excesses. I would perhaps couple this with the usual and frequently necessary reminder to everyone not to personalize subject disputes at. And it is indeed a poor idea to try engage in altering the wording of basic policy during a subject dispute (it's been tried before at various times, and sometimes people have succeeded in getting away with it) --though the particular statement she added to NPA is one that I think should indeed be added--but it shouldn't have been suggested now. There's a general pattern here I've been warning people against for many years. During a subject dispute, more experienced editors trying to push their less experienced opponents into doing something unreasonable, so one can then remove them on behavioral grounds. AE is a particularly effective place for the purpose. We shouldn't let it be used that way. A request to topic ban one's opponent in a debate should normally be rejected altogether. If one is editing and commented properly and effectively, one doesn't need it. DGG ( talk ) 06:13, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Nil EinneAs I'm on wikibreak, hopefully I don't say something here which gets me blocked. Where is this seven seconds thing coming from? AFAICT Cutepeach posted on the talk page here at 13:01:30 [65] 2 minutes after making this edit at 12:59:31 [66]. Bakkster Man made this reply at 13:07:34 [67] followed by reverting Cutepeach's change at 13:08:07 [68]. Cutepeach then asked if Bakkster Man had read the reply where they first mentioned the seven seconds bit at 13:26:36 [69]. Maybe I misunderstood what was being referred to but I'm not seeing any overlap that was seven seconds. Cutepeach's first comment seems like it could be just a simple mistake, planning to type minutes but typing seconds instead or it's possible they just confused themselves and thought it was seconds when it was minutes. Either way Cutepeach's reply is long but not that long, it seems entirely plausible it was read in 6-7 minutes especially since Bakkster Man replied to it before reverting, so if that is what's being referred to, it doesn't seem an issue. In any case, if there really is something that happened within seven seconds I missed, I'd also note that if person A leaves an explanation and person Z reverts within seven second of this explanation, per WP:AGF it's fine to think person Z didn't read the explanation, but not assign bad faith in this. If person A took several minutes to offer an explanation it's entirely plausible person Z checked for an explanation, found none and reverted. Neither editor really did any wrong here, it's just how rapid editing can play out. It's fine to ask person Z if they read the explanation, but hopefully person Z will see it themselves anyway and either way will consider whether to self-revert. If editor A left their explanation ~ the same they made the change, then probably person Z should have been a bit more careful and checked the talk page. (Well frankly this scenario doesn't really work with 7 seconds, but with something like 30 seconds it may.) However for a single instances it's a generally minor thing provided person Z does consider whether to self-revert when alerted to the explanation. Again, it's possible person Z will come across the explanation by themselves and do the same which reduces the criticism of themselves even more. BTW, I initially suggested it's not possible to see seconds with diffs. This is incorrect and I apologise for any confusion. You can change time stamp format in the appearance option to show seconds hence my examples here. As no one had replied to this other than ToBeFree who alerted me directly (thanks!), I modified my post accordingly roughly 3 hours and 40 minutes after originally posting at 16:35. (Possibly you can get even finer granularity via the API, I'm not sure.) Nil Einne ( talk) Nil Einne ( talk) 20:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesCommenting only on first 3 diffs provided by the filer, this seems to be just a content dispute. The info CutePeach is trying to include [70] arguably belongs to the page. This is page about COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis. Even if the hypothesis is wrong, we still need to list people who proposed or supported it. Yes, the edit by CutePeach is POVish and should be corrected. It is POVish because she is trying to frame it as a scientifically solid claim. But this is mostly a political, not a scientific controversy. Fortunately, such POVish version was corrected to the text that appears in the left part of this diff [71]. OK, so it now includes the following "In addition, Gorski criticises the startling claim that "the laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row". Having such criticism, let it be. Why revert? That would be my reaction. Other edits and overall behavior by CutePeach can be a lot more troubling. But if so, that had to be justified with diffs by the filer from the very beginning. My very best wishes ( talk) 21:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by PaleoNeonateAfter having drafted a report I intended to avoid participating but to eventually present a TE/soapboxing case instead if necessary in the future. I was encouraged to still post so have revised it to be less redundant with other statements. BackgroundThe COVID-19 topic was recently upgraded from general sanctions to discretionary ones because of persistent disruption in the area. AN and FTN archives have a number of related threads. The lab leak story has been promoted by online groups and on Wikipedia by some regulars, but most notably by single purpose accounts. Some were confirmed to be sockpuppets, but others to also be meatpuppets, some coordinating as part of online campaigns to push their propaganda on Wikipedia, email canvassing also occurred. While some disruptive accounts were blocked or topic banned, waves of new SPAs continued to disrupt (the talk pages of the various articles are full of it with their archives). Some Twitter activist argued about creating LEAKGATE on Wikipedia and some editors were harassed. [1] Some regulars believe that there's more to it and that Wikipedia tends toward censorship (although not too surprisingly as it is part of standard narratives). Since I read a lot of sources about it lately, I can evaluate that there's not much to it but speculation, motivated reasoning, connecting dots and an unlikely hypothesis that some scientists now advocate to investigate. The media went havoc about it lately, with right-wing, including Fox News, transforming uncertainty statements like "more information is needed" into "yes" shows, [2] and before that promoting a Bannon-promoted conspiracy theory supported by forged pseudoscientific claims and falsehoods. [3] But reliable sources confirm that there's no more evidence than before. [4] [5] We can agree that the topic is notable and everyone is recently waiting for a US intelligence report. To those who complain that it wasn't covered, it was covered by two articles, COVID-19 misinformation and Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 and per the above, are already a time sink for the community. Previous versions of COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis were unnecessary WP:POVFORKs, some were particularly bad with obvious source misrepresentation to promote a view as more plausible than the sources did. [6] In that particular version were also shady primary papers published in dubious venues and pushed by editors with a conflict of interest. As a reminder, Wikipedia is not to promote, but to document with proper context and analysis using independent reliable sources (the claims are not recited, but are written about from an independent view, the goal is also not false balance and "letting the reader choose for themself"). Now if AfD passes, we'll have one more article on it, but that will fortunately no longer be a POVFORK after TNT and rewriting by non-SPAs (but may also turn out to be another time sink for the community). References
CutePeachUnlike Bakkster's entry about a specific event I have a more general WP:TE case to present. This editor appeared on 16 March 2021 with their first edits already focused on the topic. They were suspected of being a campaign-sock (considering the others and SPA status), with the admission about Twitter we can AGF and suppose that it's more meatpuppetry. Still, it's a promotional account that appeared to know where to edit, seemed familiar with Wikipedia, uses a lot of WP:WL, had a grudge about specific editors already, then kept trying to make Wikipedia present the hypothesis as plausible, with a battleground attitude. This includes the creation of an essay to soapbox the idea, which they have promoted at talk pages like here (arguing about "proponents of NOLABLEAK" as if there was a valid equivalence, or that the others are also motivated activists, despite the efforts by several to use the best sources available like MEDRS where possible). That very post, among others, still argues to present individual opinions and accuses others of misrepresentation without evidence. More can be read here where youtube videos are posted to suggest using one person's view. The particular version of the leak hypothesis article they recently restored had problems and included unreliable, deprecated sources and problems with balance. This edit cited a deletion review but that was more about a potential draft. Fortunately, it was quickly rewritten by necessity per WP:TNT. They since complained about this rewrite and have tried to prevent the scientific consensus from being prominently mentioned (they have known about this consensus before but IDHT and quote mining from specific articles is used to suggest it may not be true despite all the other sources that mention it in various ways). They went on to accuse editors of being long term disruptive censorship activists ( permalink) (the latter also includes unrelated intervention and replies by someone else who also runs a website to promote it). I'm unsure, but since yesterday wondered if undisclosed COI is possible, so I left them a post explaining why there are areas I wouldn't edit myself. I'll stop with this for now but will quote some of what I wrote at their talk page when they accused me directly: "what is more plausible RGW activism, a new editor who's obvious goal is to push an idea since the beginning, or someone who edited hundreds of pages for years? Those are aspects that are easy to assess. My account was created pre-pandemic, was not a sleeping account and has never been blocked, this hopefully means something." I wasn't aware of the WP:POINTy redirects mentioned here, but that too is obviously tendentious... — Paleo Neonate – 02:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC) RepliesErnie: And CONSENSUS on a case by case basis, of course, IRT what sources to use. As for the rest of your narrative, I'm not really surprised. The other editors here are also not the focus of this case... — Paleo Neonate – 03:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC) Colin: Yes I admit that when only uncriticial primary material exists it can result in a lack of full coverage of the claims (by policy too, to avoid undue promotion). — Paleo Neonate – 17:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC) A general comment in relation to common claims of silencing the opponent, if that was the direction to head in, despite the evidence of promotional accounts, we would also be saying that Wikipedia is for free speech and soapboxing, that evading blocks, ignoring the TOS, sealioning are not a problem at all... I also have the impression that some editors suggesting it are not the ones who had to spend a lot of time dealing with it at those particular talk pages recently. — Paleo Neonate – 18:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC) HighInBC: I agree that ToBeFree's involvement has been administrative, there is no WP:INVOLVED content-oriented issue that I am aware of. — Paleo Neonate – 13:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC) CutePeach: In relation to using ProcrastinatingReader as an example, Plain folks and Argumentum ad populum may matter. They're also not a SPA and this report is not about them, of course. Editors come from various backgrounds and have their own beliefs, the important is to ensure that the content in the encyclopedia, instead of reflecting those, reflects the conclusions of the majority of reliable sources on the topic. This is not a "pro-believer" witch hunt afterall... — Paleo Neonate – 14:33, 26 July 2021 (UTC) Regarding this, it's concerning, although not very surprising, to see evidence of waging this anti-WP/mainstream campaign off-WP... — Paleo Neonate – 07:29, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by ColinI have attempted to mediate on a couple of Covid19 articles, where I have seen problematic editing, mindsets and a lack of desire to seek consensus. I don't think I've been successful to any significant degree. While I may personally attribute that to the stubbornness of those involved on all sides, it may also be my failure. IMO there are flaws with editors/editing on all sides but we're here to discuss CutePeach, not to fire off "but you smell too" cheap arguments. CutePeach in particular is overwhelming talk pages with soapboaxing. And while all editors have at times falling into the trap of trying to argue the science from primary sources, CutePeach is particularly prone to simply arguing what they feel is "the science" with other editors, rather than proposing (or writing) text and backing that up with reliable secondary sources. Edits to articles (such as those few listed at the very top here) fall into the style we often see on bad controversy topics, where editors attempt to argue the case in front of the readers. The first link is a particularly egregious example: "SARS-COV-2 was well adapted for human transmission from its early emergence...co authored a paper which included claims of possible genetic engineering, which they submitted to a journal, and were edited out in the peer review process". This hints to the readers that some scientists think covid was genetically engineered to be well adapted for human transmission, and at the same time hints at some conspiracy to cover it up. Both claims are outstanding and The World Should Know! Despite the RFCs about MEDRS, there remains a lot of misinformation. Let's be clear. A claim on Wikipedia that covid was genetically engineered requires an academic secondary source of the first order, not some Norwegian "bourgeois magazine". The other two sources paywalled, hmm. We need to be extremely careful when discussing scientific controversy that it doesn't just become a mechanism for agenda editing to mislead. While I agree with DGG that at times editors have sought the "Wikipedia should say nothing" approach, which just leads to frustration and doesn't serve our readers, we also need to prevent Wikipedia becoming the Dail Mail, where any contentious or dubious statement by some scientists somewhere is offered credulously to our readers. I entirely disagree with DGG's assessment that this AE is just a game play to remove an opponent. Cutepeach is an editor who's account has always been solely focussed on promoting the lab leak hypothesis on Wikipedia, and despite lots of editors attempting to explain how Wikipedia works, they aren't getting it. Cutepeach's talk page discussions belong on a social media forum and article writing belongs on a personal blog. -- Colin° Talk 10:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC) ProcrastinatingReader: Both you and DGG make arguments that view Cutepeach as a pawn in a game, or fighter in a battle for NPOV. DGG's claim (about removing an opponent) could be made about nearly all disputes where editors argue for sanctions, and is unprovable without some kind of editor-thought-MRI-scanner technology. You argue that Cutepeach's extreme position is a necessary balance for other editors with different views, view which you frame as pro-lab-leak and vice-versa, as though there are only two sides. The BBC once made that mistake, thinking "balance" on topics like global warming or MMR meant that for every expert you interviewed, you had to have some weirdo too. They eventually saw sense on that. NPOV isn't about balance as though there are two sides to every argument. There are many sides and but often one side is noisier than is warranted by their acceptance among reliable sources. WP:NPOV is "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." (my bold) A SPA editor who has a clear editorial bias, is pushing a minority and political agenda, and who after months of advice is still (a) pushing their agenda in articles with bad sources and (b) trying to convince others about the "science" with walls of text (see their talk 15:56 24th), is not helping NPOV at all. I suggest instead that editors tend more to take extreme "not give an inch" positions when there is persistent agenda-editing pushing a minority POV. The walls of argument on talk is also off-putting to other editors who may take a more unbiased view. -- Colin° Talk 10:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC) My very best wishes, wrt claims about genetic engineered Covid. Read what I said carefully. I'm not going to get into a covid argument on this page. But, Trump, yes, that's a big news story about "what Trump said / reaction". Random scientist making similar claim, no. That's a well tried POV pushing tactic and there are "scientists" and "doctors" who believe and say just about anything if you google hard enough. If you still aren't sure, feel free to ask at WT:MED. -- Colin° Talk 11:33, 26 July 2021 (UTC) My very best wishes (again), arguments about sourcing rules wrt covid are an endless meta distraction, and I don't understand why you think an AE request on another user is the place to discuss your personal opinion, which disagrees with core policy. Again, if you wish to know better why you are wrong, and specifically wrong about the RFC, please ask at WP:MED. Please try to stay focused on the topic here. -- Colin° Talk 12:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by ProcrastinatingReaderAt this point I've reported several users who happen to have pro-lab-leak editing philosophies and none vice versa. The former group has historically been substantially more disruptive, although currently I think the latter is probably more of a problem, and better at it too since they tend to be more experienced users. It really isn't that difficult to edit neutrally, and just sum up reliable sources without bringing in your own personal philosophy on the issue and let the sources speak for themselves. Over half of the regulars in this topic area seem incapable of doing that, though. The behavioural issues stem as a result. Let's be realistic, nobody in 'the other group' will be sanctioned. I think that's relevant here because if you remove every editor on one side of the issue I don't know how we can reach NPOV in this topic area. CutePeach is certainly a single purpose account. [78] Several of their comments have no basis in policy. They also make some where they are right. I don't think they are a net negative in this topic area at this time. Their volume of commentary is also not so great such that they're an undue burden on others' time. CutePeach has, in some cases, exercised with restraint, such as when their "COVID-19 cover-up" article was draftified; policy allows them to move it back and force others to hold a deletion discussion, although they chose not to do that, presumably believing it would be more collaborative not to. Personally, I think we need to put an end to the seeking of non-standard venues for discussions in this topic area, and that starts with no more damn MFDs, no more attempts to avoid building consensus in this topic area, and no more ignoring the outcomes of consensus discussions. The path to a stable article that follows our policies, if not through self-reflection, is through discussion. The most corrosive type of editor, thus, is one that is a hurdle in allowing those discussions to take place properly (through bludgeoning, for example, or through persistent long rambling arguments and derailing of discussions). CutePeach, in my experience and at this time, does not tick those boxes. As such, I don't see how the topic area is helped by sanctioning them. I think CutePeach's voice is necessary to reach NPOV in the topic area. My main concern is their misuse of primary sources, but I think that's something they can work on. +1 to DGG's
Statement by SgnpkdI have been on wiki for more than ten years but this is my first time posting here. I personally think the amount of persistent hostilities from RandomCanadian and Shibolethink towards an editor who have opposing view is alarming. CutePeach might try to push an idea here but one also cannot help seeing a pattern as if there is a single purpose tendency to reject all other opinions added to these articles, and to censor even factual events. It is observed that users who made construtive updates to these articles, fully backed with reliable sources, usually have their edits reverted, redacted, even got the individual wordings changed or twisted to change the meaning towards a certain view. The fact that the adminitrators are not aware of this is concerning. I would support per WP:BOOMERANG for filing a case for "offences" that Mr Ernie has pointed out above, ie. the same thing that CutePeach was accused of. The users I mentioned who have posted here should also be scrutinised for WP:SEALION. Sgnpkd ( talk) 18:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by 力We seem to be waiting, though I'm not sure why. Two facts seem fairly clear.
Beyond that, the diffs from Shibbolethink and Bakkster Man do not convince me that a block or topic-ban is necessary. Many of their diffs are simply opinions they don't like; the sea of all-caps policy links that are claimed to be violated are not actually violated. The accusations that they are promoting FRINGE views are particularly cynical; the pro-lab-leak views are considered fringe for no apparent reason other than that a few editors don't like them. If the US government, the head of the WHO, various pundits, and half the US public feel a lab leak is possible, it is surely not FRINGE to suggest as much. I'm not as familiar with CutePeach, but have interacted with several of the "anti-lab-leak" editors who have commented here, and largely agree with DGG's view on them. That said, the behavior of other editors is off-topic here; either a new ARE or a request for a full ARBCOM case would be the place to discuss their behavior. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:51, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by The Four DeucesI don't see any violation. CutePeach added to an article about the COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis that a group of scientists from the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard University wrote a paper defending the hypothesis, which was rejected. When another editor removed it, they reverted. This information is arguably relevant since the paper received coverage in popular media. WP:FRINGE does allow some mention of fringe theories provided they are noteworthy and the degree of their acceptance is explained. This type of dispute should be resolved on article talk pages. If an editor is outnumbered then it should be dealt with as edit-warring. But one revert doesn't amount to that. TFD ( talk) 17:48, 27 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by ForichI oppose using preprints in articles related to COVID-19 origin, specially in light of Wikipedia:General_sanctions/COVID-19#Application_notes. However, I've noticed that this sanction guideline requires update because many editors (including top anti-lab leak editor RandomCanadian) are starting to be more lax with the grey area of what requires MEDRS and what doesn't. If virologists weren't so afraid to touch the subject we all would had many secondary reviews by now directly citing the lab leak and none of this Wikipedia drama will be happening, its a shame. I encourage CutePeach to i) not use preprints; ii) in the grey area case that the preprint gets cited in many other RS, seek consensus first in Talk pages before including any mention of a preprint, however tangential. Finally, I concur with DGG who observed how a group of experienced editors are setting traps to the new ones, so that they bite and end up topic banned. Don't the prey editors have nothing better to do with their time? Sigh Forich ( talk) 18:19, 27 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by JPxGI saw this from the
dashboard, and have been away for a few days, so I am writing this long after every smart thing has been said by someone else. Broadly, I agree with the points mady by Atsme, DGG, Nil Einne, My very best wishes, ProcrastinatingReader and 力. I have been, against my better judgment, following the lab leak saga on Wikipedia for a number of months. It has been nasty, dumb, convoluted and overall unpleasant; there have been a neverending slew of disputes and proxy disputes carried out in a variety of different venues. In a recent AfD, off the top of my head I could recall Statement by Levivich@ ToBeFree: I'm not understanding how that block was within policy. Levivich 16:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I don't agree with how you've handled this, TBF, and I'd ask you not to repeat this in the future. Meaning, if someone is reported here, do not tell them not to edit in the topic area (or not to edit an article) while this is pending; we don't have "pre-trial probation" or "restraining orders" like that as part of our policies/guidelines/norms. If you want to do a unilateral DS TBAN, then do it (and take all the ADMINACCT that comes with it). If you don't want to do that, then don't tell editors not to edit in a topic area pending a decision. Because what you did was to effectively TBAN them by telling them not to edit the article. Additionally, they complied with your request (they didn't edit the article), but then when they made related talk page edits, you enforced your TBAN with a block (and required implementation of the TBAN as an unblock condition, which ties the hands of other admins, and is, again, an effective TBAN by you, except it's unlogged... just go log it and unblock the editor, or unblock the editor, restore their edits, and let someone else truly handle this). Again, this is before a TBAN was actually implemented and logged. I don't think that's kosher. Either TBAN the editor, and if they're not TBANed, don't block them for violating a TBAN-that's-coming. It's not how the block tool is supposed to be used. (Same with reverting their edits.) You accuse the editor gaming but from where I'm sitting, it seems like you're gaming by imposing a TBAN without formally imposing (logging) the TBAN. I know your intentions are good faith but my point is "gaming" is very subjective. Levivich 19:52, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Adoring NannyIt's difficult to go through a list of 21 diffs. So I'm just going to look at the first one [79] User:Shibbolethink complains that User escalates dispute about gain-of-function into dispute about all of COVID origins. That's curious, since the list of bullet points that User:CutePeach is responding to, on the version [80] of the page immediately preceding the CutePeach edit, is about covid origins. So what is the escalation? Furthermore, in the discussion, Shibbolethink is using [81] a source that describes a bioweapon origin as a Conspiracy Theory to argue that Gain of Function should be treated, in WikiVoice, as a Conspiracy Theory. That's a strange leap. An experienced editor would know not to use the word "disingenuous" as the word "disingenuous" refers to motivation. But, as others have noted, CutePeach has only been around for a few months. The upshot is that the very first of the 21 diffs is weakish. In light of that, I'm not inclined to go into depth on the remaining 20. Adoring nanny ( talk) 01:21, 3 August 2021 (UTC) Result concerning CutePeach
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Indefed as an admin action -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 01:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Santamoly
Discussion concerning SantamolyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SantamolyI'm surprised at the energy going into blocking me from editing, especially when anyone can see that my edits are simple corrections of typos or minor details. Am I that much of a menace on Wikipedia? I have no idea, but it's truly fascinating to see the people involved in seeing that I don't succeed in my little edits. Have these people nothing else to do? Are they prowling about Wikipedia looking for unauthorized spelling corrections? Or removing clumsy vandalism? Please, look at my edits (three are listed above). Are some Wikipedia admins frightened by my simple edits? I have no idea. Please keep me posted! FWIW, I actually stopped editing in my area of expertise (aeronautical engineering and certification) as requested 4 or 5 years ago. I've got 15 years of Wikipedia contributions on engineering topics. I've also stopped editing in medical technology. So the quality of engineering discussion has gone down somewhat since I'm a certified graduate engineer with years of experience. But I don't want to contribute to Wikipedia if several hours work can be removed in a blink because someone decides that Iraq is "Eastern Europe broadly construed", or that Boeing can't be discussed because it uses Russian titanium forgings. I get it. Wikipedia doesn't want my expertise, and I'm OK with that. But I'm puzzled by the reaction to simple edits of no great consequence. Look at the list below. Six editors have spent hours studying this issue and responding. Now they're wondering why I'm not responding. I'm not indifferent to the effort expended on this topic, but I'm puzzled by the energy going into it. I don't think anyone has any idea why I'm being blocked. I, too, have no idea! Perhaps there's something I'm not aware of? Santamoly ( talk) 04:50, 2 August 2021 (UTC) Statement by PaleoNeonateTopic ban decision: Statement by (username)Result concerning Santamoly
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BengHistory is indefinitely topic banned from all South Asian social groups, broadly construed. Johnuniq ( talk) 10:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC) |
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Request concerning BengHistory
Discussion concerning BengHistoryStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BengHistoryI am simply amazed that Trangabellam and Ekdalian have complained about me whereas it is they who have been acting with a non-neutral attitude. The talk-page is there for the respected admins to see so I am confident that they would easily be able to judge the events that took place there. I just want to draw attention of the respected adjudicators to the following points: BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 1) They at one point of time summarily rejected any Baidya authors (Sengupta for example, see Ekdalian's comments) deeming them as unreliable, and when I questioned the logic of that and explained that by their logic authors of other castes are also questionable, they accused me of distinguishing in terms of caste and misrepresented it to an admin. Great morality indeed, accusing the accuser for something committed by themselves (Ekdalian classified some editors as 'Baidya editors'). BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 2) They freely changed words and added their own while quoting a source (like 'indicated' has been changed to 'accorded', or 'apparently' has been added) in such a way that it changes the proposition entirely. Thus flouting WP:NPOV BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 3) One misquoted a source to portray a different picture of the caste-hierarchy in Bengal (viz. H Sanyal regarding Chandimangal) BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 4) One was putting exclamatory marks at the end of the statements and inserted words like 'apparently' (which visibly ridicules certain eminent persons), which were not there in the quoted sources. When challenged he came with a laughable explanation that he was following they style of the author. BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 5) Clear words like 'Semibrahmins' and 'fallen brahmins' were removed from a quote on the pretext of 'balancing the article with neutrality', 'agenda-free reading', and 'taking a practical view', all of which amount to WP:SYN BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 6) One did not come up with page numbers/quotes even when repetitively asked about the same regarding certain words. BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 7) Authors of repute like Nripendra Dutta have been termed as fanciful. BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 8) When I questioned Swarupa Gupta's reliability (they were always judging academic qualifications of sourced authors and I pointed out that she is a young research fellow), it was twisted to show me as having gender bias ! Such dishonesty! BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 9) One of them have been thoroughly disrespectful and have been using words like 'blabbering' and 'ramblings' and 'Do I care about your threats?', and now he is making a great noise about 'short-term memory loss' ! BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 10) An entire article is being centred upon the ritual status of a caste (and questioning the claim of that caste with a tone of disdain and selective referencing) which have little relevance for international readers, and important facts regarding that caste (literacy rates, for example) are being thrust in the small-fonted notes. As if it is only the ritual status that is worth considerations and all of the rest comes at best as a note. BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 11) There have been serious inconsistencies in selection of sources. At one point of time they disagreed to include Census reports as they are seemingly unreliable, quoting whatever poeple say. Now the same census reports are being quoted to opine that Baidyas' claims are on 'slender' grounds. BengHistory ( talk) 11:12, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 12) Trangabellam had removed all my replies to his questions from the talk-page, and when I referred to that he simply retorted that he was doing so because indentation of my replies was not in order. BengHistory ( talk) 11:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by EkdalianThe user BengHistory has been editing a related article on Vaid with the same intension of glorifying their caste. I have warned the user in his talk page (discretionary sanctions notice), and reverted his edits, explaining the same in the edit summaries as well as the user's talk page. In spite of all these, BengHistory has reverted my edits without any explanation! It is quite evident (from all his edits) that the user is here for promoting his caste only, and not to build an encyclopedia. I believe he should be blocked from editing as per WP:CASTE. Thanks. Ekdalian ( talk) 08:35, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by (BengHistory)I am starting to contribute to wikipedia on topics I have focused on during my research days (mainly Ayurveda, Vaidyas of India, and Brahmin kingdoms). Does it mean that my edits in this page are unreliable by that reason only? Do I need to edit thousands of other pages which I have no clue about before I can contribute on something I have studied about? Mr. Ekdalian reverted all my additions by terming them 'unconstructive' (and suggested as if I am somehow not entitled to add or change anything in a page, cf. his comment on my userpage) without discussions, and he and Trangabellam have regularly posted threats of sanctions on my userpage (without any particular reference). All content added by me in the Vaid page was verbatim quotes from sources, the respected admin can see for himself/herself. Such vindictive attitudes will only discourage future contributors, and I request the admins here to take a note of it. BengHistory ( talk) 11:00, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Result concerning BengHistory
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User indefinitely blocked as an admin (not AE) action. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC) |
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Request concerning অভিরূপ দাশশর্মা
WP:NOTHERE. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#BengHistory might be relevant.
Discussion concerning অভিরূপ দাশশর্মাStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by অভিরূপ দাশশর্মাStatement by (username)Result concerning অভিরূপ দাশশর্মা
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Manish9893 is indefinitely topic banned from all pages and discussions concerning India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed ( WP:ARBIPA). Johnuniq ( talk) 09:04, 11 August 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Manish9893
Done. Discussion concerning Manish9893Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Manish9893When the google search and many documents clearly show that his age is 43 years And his reign started in 1178 And Death in 1192 Which is clearly 14-15 Years What is the sole need for mentioning dashrath verma quote that his age was 26 years at death. When the Pictures of him at various places show him as a well aged man which is 40+ How come he, born in 1166, becomes king at 1178. This Section was Not needed. Statement by (username)Result concerning Manish9893
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CutePeach is indefinitely topic banned from the Origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. If the disruption moves to another sub-topic of COVID-19, this topic ban can be extended to the full topic area by any univolved administrator. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 01:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC) | ||
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning CutePeach
Wikipedia:General sanctions/COVID-19#Application notes Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Appropriate sources
None I'm aware of
Per COVID-19 GS (now included under DS): "Editors are reminded that the onus is on the editor seeking to include disputed content to achieve consensus for its inclusion. Any content or source removed in good faith and citing a credible policy-based rationale should not be reinstated without prior consensus on the article's talk page." Per Pseudoscience ArbCom decision: "4a) Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources require that information included in an article have been published in a reliable source which is identified and potentially available to the reader. What constitutes a reliable source varies with the topic of the article, but in the case of a scientific theory, there is a clear expectation that the sources for the theory itself are reputable textbooks or peer-reviewed journals. Scientific theories promulgated outside these media are not properly verifiable as scientific theories and should not be represented as such." Editor appears to have violated both counts, despite explicit reminder of sanctions.
Discussion concerning CutePeachStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CutePeachThe three diffs that Bakkster Man provided in his case filing - as others here have noted - do not show any violations, as I only added high quality secondary sources which cited the prepreint, and not the preprint itself. The list of 21 diffs provided by Shibbolethink which allege a number of violations - as others here have noted - are spurious. I have been advised by one very well meaning administrator to just explain that I always meant well and to express regret for being too insistent
[2] - which I was planning on doing - but a senior editor participating here accused him of advising me to I joined Wikipedia at a time
WP:MEDRS was being abused by some editors as a sourcing restriction to
WP:CENSOR the lab leak hypothesis from Wikipedia, and as this case indicates, there now seems to be an effort to use
WP:SCHOLARSHIP to As a final note, I would also like to apologize to anyone who truly felt offended by anything I said, as I was quite harsh to some editors, including some who have changed their mind on covering the subject. I would like to give a special thanks to DGG for being kind throughout this process, and to ProcrastinatingReader for changing his mind on covering this subject. I wish you all the best. CutePeach ( talk) 04:40, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Statement by ToBeFree
Statement by Mr ErnieIf Bakkster Man is going to report editors for allegedly failing to follow ONUS, then they should probably not also be doing the exact same thing. So let's just cut right to it - this is nothing more than an attempt to remove an editor with an opposing viewpoint from the topic area. Mr Ernie ( talk) 14:05, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
@
CaptainEek: re: I think CutePeach should consider not posting a response here, as the same involved editors are openly collaborating about this filing with the same wall of text tactics that are deployed in the topic areas directly. This is a simple issue and quick look at the diffs reveals 2 editors in a minor edit war. As a final point, ToBeFree, can you please indicate your status as involved or uninvolved, given your comments in the discussion area here (the tu quoque comments), admin area here (the request for diffs which were never given and the block), talk pages, and user talk pages (the de facto topic ban) and recent admin actions? I will close by saying that we really ought not to succor weaponized content DS filings. Mr Ernie ( talk) 03:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
AE is a confusing and often Kafka-esque process even for experienced editors. CutePeach is a promising editor with only 4 months tenure here so far. There’s an overwhelming amount of words to respond to from editors loquacious both here and at the relevant article talk pages. CutePeach’s statement is sure to be picked through with a fine tooth comb so I am willing to cut them some slack for any delays. (Post made 11:41 25 July but unsigned) A handful of talk page posts coming off the top of the head are easy and fast. Imagine being a new editor and seeing these massive, over the word limit walls of text. Where are the admins and editors who help new users? Where are the admins who help clerk AE? Mr Ernie ( talk) 12:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by AtsmeI agree with Mr Ernie for the most part, and I'll add that I'm not seeing any justification for removal of the material that was added in GF by CutePeach, aside from IDONTLIKEIT by the reverting editor. Did I overlook something? Tagging the material with citation needed or something similar instead of removing it would have been a better option, or better yet, taking the time to cite a better source, rather than bringing a case here. I consider such behavior the antithesis to collaboration. The article in question is not a BLP that requires immediate removal of material without any attempt to find a better source, or to at least discuss it amicably. The reverting editor should neither have first advantage, nor should we consider their revert automatically justified based on a technicality without first considering IAR, and CONTEXT which is paramount when determining a source's reliability. It has been argued that the lab leak hypothesis is politically motivated, and that possibly media "has fallen victim to a misinformation campaign" as stated in this BMJ article. Regardless of what side of the argument one is on, the hypothesis is notable, and so are the substantial views that have been published by reliable media. The sources used do not have to pass WP:MEDRS in this case, and I think the claim of unreliable needs closer scrutiny. Atsme 💬 📧 16:04, 22 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by RandomCanadianBeyond the rather mundane edit-warring, in clear violation of expected standards, especially in an area under DS, CP's persistent uncivility and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality - evidenced both by their actions on articles and their recent ramblings on Tobias' talk page (where they accuse me, PaleoNeonate, and unspecified admins of conspiring to silence them... [17] [18]), as well as their refusal to follow the most basic content policies (AGF applies to behaviour not to article content: unsourced, poorly sourced or non-neutral and undue content must be challenged, as per WP:V and WP:NPOV, no matter what one thinks of the intentions of the editor who included it - what applies here is WP:ONUS). Additionally, I note that CP is well aware of the issues with their editing, having notably been warned of it previously by Shibbolethink ( [19]) Them continuing on this path despite this is evidence they are digging their own hole, and, unlike Jule Verne or Dante, their voyage into the abyss is unlikely to have any redeeming literary quality. A full, prolonged topic ban is likely in order. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 17:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
References
Statement by Francesco espoRandomCanadian inserted a secondary source (Science Based Medicine) citing an unpublished preprint (Sørensen et al), and Bakkster Man did not object to it, as he wasn’t aware it was an unpublished preprint. When CutePeach pointed this out to defend her inclusion of secondary sources (MIT Technology Review) citing a preprint, Bakkster Man had already reverted her edit and opened this case. Mr Ernie then removed the Sørensen et al as undue [26], but Bakkster Man reinstate it as due [27], but then Bakkster Man realizing his mistake and delete the whole paragraph [28]. Bakkster Man reverted CutePeach seven seconds after she explained her inclusion on the talk page, so he couldn’t have possibly read it, and he made a fool of himself here. It is clear for all to see this was premeditated. Francesco espo ( talk) 20:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC) This is hilarious, RandomCanadian is in the house [29], but he still doesn’t realize the Science Based Medicine source he cited cites Sorensen et all (same as Deiglish's preprint). I wonder if ToBeFree knows what’s going on. I don’t think he does. DGG are you seeing this? Francesco espo ( talk) 20:47, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by FeralOinkHello,
Francesco espo and Mr. Ernie (or is it Dr?) and other somewhat sane people here. In the interest of transparency, I am replying here rather than on your talk page, lest I be accused of canvassing or such. Yes, that is hilarious. (Imagine an emoji with rolling eyes and another with lol face). I didn't realize that
CutePeach was another lady like me. We are NOT WP:CHEESE! (Thank you for using proper They, the random Canadian (Redacted) et al are being horrible to CutePeach! She has to translate these INTERMINABLY LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG walls of text from English to Tagalog and back. I gave up on making appeals to DGG after reading what he said on the GoF article talk page here:
that it was absurd to suggest that the government of China does bioterrorism (or maybe biowarfare?) research. The US government does bioterrorism/biowarfare research, as do most of the G7 countries. If we have to edit Wikipedia based on the assumption that China is like, um, Monaco regarding self-defense and hegemony, then it is hopeless to make any meaningful contribution at all. The gap between the real world and Wikipedia is becoming vast. Dr. Fauci is being written up for lying to Congress while giving sworn testimony about Dazak, EcoHealth, and funding to WIV, yet Wikipedia is still bickering about even mentioning the possibility that the coronavirus was a lab leak or a (unintentional or intentional) release of GoF research. Meanwhile, the article about
ZyCoV-D I am extremely disgruntled and am ranting here. This isn't WP:IDONTLIKEIT or what-about-ism. It is absolutely necessary to apply consistent standards regarding sources and fairness. That has all flown out the window. Lots of editors are being intolerant and horrible, uh WP:TENDENTIOUS and will not relent. Look, y'all got your way about Donald Trump, and inserted ridiculous redundant verbiage e.g. "false disproven conspiracy theories" or continuing to say that
Statement by ShibbolethinkI think Bakkster Man is frustrated with this editor's activity in general. The specific diffs he has offered don't encapsulate all of CutePeach's problematic behavior. See below ArbE I was preparing: Diffs of problematic behavior by CutePeach
Summary of thoughts on CutePeachIn summary: CutePeach has engaged in tendentious editing, as shown by the following: A) USTHEM SOAPBOXing asserting “a campaign” exists against them/their opinions, B) General SOAPBOXing about COVID origins and how Wikipedia is not reflecting the “truth”, because of our reliance on policies that CutePeach disagrees with, C) casting ASPERSIONS in multiple directions in a pattern that appears targeted to discourage certain POVs from contributing, D) personal attacks against editors (including myself), belittling a lack of “competence” and intelligence, E) escalation of many disputes to an overall dispute about the topic and consistent BATTLEGROUNDing, F) a consistent, unrelenting argument that the mainstream scientific POV about COVID origins should not be included in our articles. On a more personal note, dealing with this user has made me step back from Wiki, in an exact encapsulation of WP:QUIT/ WP:RANDY/ WP:CHEESE. The user has argued repeatedly that my PhD in Virology is a reason why I should not be trusted to edit these articles (see above). While many of the other pro-leak editors and anti-leak editors have come to consensus editing the new COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis article, this user has not. As I have described above, they, at some point, decided consensus was not the goal, and instead the goal was pushing their POV. To make this abundantly clear: I have no problem with people who believe in the lab leak. I am happy to edit alongside such users. Several such editors and I have come to agreement in how to achieve consensus via compromise, working together. CutePeach appears emphatically...vitriolically...indignantly... not interested. Recommend indef topic ban and short-term block.-- Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 22:40, 22 July 2021 (UTC) (edited 17:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)) Other notes
Statement by DervorguillaIt looks like CutePeach may have been attempting to find an acceptable solution through a combination of adaptive editing and good-faith discussion. (See EDITCON flowchart.) Each of the 3 listed edits does seem responsive to the ongoing discussion, if less than perfectly so. Also, it seems intuitive that in this article the added information was not "represented as" a scientific theory but as a hypothesis. ("A proposed explanation, supported by evidence, that serves as a starting point for investigation" — Black’s Law Dictionary.) MEDDEF likewise suggests that peer-reviewed sources may not be needed here:
Dervorguilla ( talk) 23:21, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Novem Linguae
I would support some kind of sanction. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 03:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by DGGThe basic problem is the persistent efforts by editors other than CutePeach to avoid covering the topic entirely, despite world wide major press coverage. As normal at WP, this had taken the form of attempts to find objections to the sourcing, even when the sources are such a would normally be accepted for topics of this nature. CP's reaction to this has sometime been a little unmeasured, ad worded more contentiously than I would have done. But in view of the nature of the utter rejection of the fundamental WP policy of WP:NPOV with which she has been contending, it's understandable, as a response to the specious arguments on the other side. It's especially unfortunate that this AE request has been brought at the very time when the various editors involved have mostly been approaching consensus about how to handle the subject, guided by the RfC on the applicability of MEDRES. I see this as a last-ditch attempt to avoid covering what has become a major political question--or, that having failed, to avoid covering it properly. I'm not blaming the party who has brought this request, nor am I mentioning any other names. because they're by no means the only one involved, just as CP is by no means the only one who has been trying to get NPOV coverage. I think we should not escalate this, because the normal WP methods are working--even though they have been working with exceptional slowness and difficulty. I can not endorse everything CP has said, but I certainly do endorse her efforts. She perhaps needs at most a reminder that the answer to unfair tactics is not to indulge in rhetorical excesses. I would perhaps couple this with the usual and frequently necessary reminder to everyone not to personalize subject disputes at. And it is indeed a poor idea to try engage in altering the wording of basic policy during a subject dispute (it's been tried before at various times, and sometimes people have succeeded in getting away with it) --though the particular statement she added to NPA is one that I think should indeed be added--but it shouldn't have been suggested now. There's a general pattern here I've been warning people against for many years. During a subject dispute, more experienced editors trying to push their less experienced opponents into doing something unreasonable, so one can then remove them on behavioral grounds. AE is a particularly effective place for the purpose. We shouldn't let it be used that way. A request to topic ban one's opponent in a debate should normally be rejected altogether. If one is editing and commented properly and effectively, one doesn't need it. DGG ( talk ) 06:13, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Nil EinneAs I'm on wikibreak, hopefully I don't say something here which gets me blocked. Where is this seven seconds thing coming from? AFAICT Cutepeach posted on the talk page here at 13:01:30 [65] 2 minutes after making this edit at 12:59:31 [66]. Bakkster Man made this reply at 13:07:34 [67] followed by reverting Cutepeach's change at 13:08:07 [68]. Cutepeach then asked if Bakkster Man had read the reply where they first mentioned the seven seconds bit at 13:26:36 [69]. Maybe I misunderstood what was being referred to but I'm not seeing any overlap that was seven seconds. Cutepeach's first comment seems like it could be just a simple mistake, planning to type minutes but typing seconds instead or it's possible they just confused themselves and thought it was seconds when it was minutes. Either way Cutepeach's reply is long but not that long, it seems entirely plausible it was read in 6-7 minutes especially since Bakkster Man replied to it before reverting, so if that is what's being referred to, it doesn't seem an issue. In any case, if there really is something that happened within seven seconds I missed, I'd also note that if person A leaves an explanation and person Z reverts within seven second of this explanation, per WP:AGF it's fine to think person Z didn't read the explanation, but not assign bad faith in this. If person A took several minutes to offer an explanation it's entirely plausible person Z checked for an explanation, found none and reverted. Neither editor really did any wrong here, it's just how rapid editing can play out. It's fine to ask person Z if they read the explanation, but hopefully person Z will see it themselves anyway and either way will consider whether to self-revert. If editor A left their explanation ~ the same they made the change, then probably person Z should have been a bit more careful and checked the talk page. (Well frankly this scenario doesn't really work with 7 seconds, but with something like 30 seconds it may.) However for a single instances it's a generally minor thing provided person Z does consider whether to self-revert when alerted to the explanation. Again, it's possible person Z will come across the explanation by themselves and do the same which reduces the criticism of themselves even more. BTW, I initially suggested it's not possible to see seconds with diffs. This is incorrect and I apologise for any confusion. You can change time stamp format in the appearance option to show seconds hence my examples here. As no one had replied to this other than ToBeFree who alerted me directly (thanks!), I modified my post accordingly roughly 3 hours and 40 minutes after originally posting at 16:35. (Possibly you can get even finer granularity via the API, I'm not sure.) Nil Einne ( talk) Nil Einne ( talk) 20:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishesCommenting only on first 3 diffs provided by the filer, this seems to be just a content dispute. The info CutePeach is trying to include [70] arguably belongs to the page. This is page about COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis. Even if the hypothesis is wrong, we still need to list people who proposed or supported it. Yes, the edit by CutePeach is POVish and should be corrected. It is POVish because she is trying to frame it as a scientifically solid claim. But this is mostly a political, not a scientific controversy. Fortunately, such POVish version was corrected to the text that appears in the left part of this diff [71]. OK, so it now includes the following "In addition, Gorski criticises the startling claim that "the laws of physics mean that you cannot have four positively charged amino acids in a row". Having such criticism, let it be. Why revert? That would be my reaction. Other edits and overall behavior by CutePeach can be a lot more troubling. But if so, that had to be justified with diffs by the filer from the very beginning. My very best wishes ( talk) 21:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by PaleoNeonateAfter having drafted a report I intended to avoid participating but to eventually present a TE/soapboxing case instead if necessary in the future. I was encouraged to still post so have revised it to be less redundant with other statements. BackgroundThe COVID-19 topic was recently upgraded from general sanctions to discretionary ones because of persistent disruption in the area. AN and FTN archives have a number of related threads. The lab leak story has been promoted by online groups and on Wikipedia by some regulars, but most notably by single purpose accounts. Some were confirmed to be sockpuppets, but others to also be meatpuppets, some coordinating as part of online campaigns to push their propaganda on Wikipedia, email canvassing also occurred. While some disruptive accounts were blocked or topic banned, waves of new SPAs continued to disrupt (the talk pages of the various articles are full of it with their archives). Some Twitter activist argued about creating LEAKGATE on Wikipedia and some editors were harassed. [1] Some regulars believe that there's more to it and that Wikipedia tends toward censorship (although not too surprisingly as it is part of standard narratives). Since I read a lot of sources about it lately, I can evaluate that there's not much to it but speculation, motivated reasoning, connecting dots and an unlikely hypothesis that some scientists now advocate to investigate. The media went havoc about it lately, with right-wing, including Fox News, transforming uncertainty statements like "more information is needed" into "yes" shows, [2] and before that promoting a Bannon-promoted conspiracy theory supported by forged pseudoscientific claims and falsehoods. [3] But reliable sources confirm that there's no more evidence than before. [4] [5] We can agree that the topic is notable and everyone is recently waiting for a US intelligence report. To those who complain that it wasn't covered, it was covered by two articles, COVID-19 misinformation and Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 and per the above, are already a time sink for the community. Previous versions of COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis were unnecessary WP:POVFORKs, some were particularly bad with obvious source misrepresentation to promote a view as more plausible than the sources did. [6] In that particular version were also shady primary papers published in dubious venues and pushed by editors with a conflict of interest. As a reminder, Wikipedia is not to promote, but to document with proper context and analysis using independent reliable sources (the claims are not recited, but are written about from an independent view, the goal is also not false balance and "letting the reader choose for themself"). Now if AfD passes, we'll have one more article on it, but that will fortunately no longer be a POVFORK after TNT and rewriting by non-SPAs (but may also turn out to be another time sink for the community). References
CutePeachUnlike Bakkster's entry about a specific event I have a more general WP:TE case to present. This editor appeared on 16 March 2021 with their first edits already focused on the topic. They were suspected of being a campaign-sock (considering the others and SPA status), with the admission about Twitter we can AGF and suppose that it's more meatpuppetry. Still, it's a promotional account that appeared to know where to edit, seemed familiar with Wikipedia, uses a lot of WP:WL, had a grudge about specific editors already, then kept trying to make Wikipedia present the hypothesis as plausible, with a battleground attitude. This includes the creation of an essay to soapbox the idea, which they have promoted at talk pages like here (arguing about "proponents of NOLABLEAK" as if there was a valid equivalence, or that the others are also motivated activists, despite the efforts by several to use the best sources available like MEDRS where possible). That very post, among others, still argues to present individual opinions and accuses others of misrepresentation without evidence. More can be read here where youtube videos are posted to suggest using one person's view. The particular version of the leak hypothesis article they recently restored had problems and included unreliable, deprecated sources and problems with balance. This edit cited a deletion review but that was more about a potential draft. Fortunately, it was quickly rewritten by necessity per WP:TNT. They since complained about this rewrite and have tried to prevent the scientific consensus from being prominently mentioned (they have known about this consensus before but IDHT and quote mining from specific articles is used to suggest it may not be true despite all the other sources that mention it in various ways). They went on to accuse editors of being long term disruptive censorship activists ( permalink) (the latter also includes unrelated intervention and replies by someone else who also runs a website to promote it). I'm unsure, but since yesterday wondered if undisclosed COI is possible, so I left them a post explaining why there are areas I wouldn't edit myself. I'll stop with this for now but will quote some of what I wrote at their talk page when they accused me directly: "what is more plausible RGW activism, a new editor who's obvious goal is to push an idea since the beginning, or someone who edited hundreds of pages for years? Those are aspects that are easy to assess. My account was created pre-pandemic, was not a sleeping account and has never been blocked, this hopefully means something." I wasn't aware of the WP:POINTy redirects mentioned here, but that too is obviously tendentious... — Paleo Neonate – 02:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC) RepliesErnie: And CONSENSUS on a case by case basis, of course, IRT what sources to use. As for the rest of your narrative, I'm not really surprised. The other editors here are also not the focus of this case... — Paleo Neonate – 03:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC) Colin: Yes I admit that when only uncriticial primary material exists it can result in a lack of full coverage of the claims (by policy too, to avoid undue promotion). — Paleo Neonate – 17:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC) A general comment in relation to common claims of silencing the opponent, if that was the direction to head in, despite the evidence of promotional accounts, we would also be saying that Wikipedia is for free speech and soapboxing, that evading blocks, ignoring the TOS, sealioning are not a problem at all... I also have the impression that some editors suggesting it are not the ones who had to spend a lot of time dealing with it at those particular talk pages recently. — Paleo Neonate – 18:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC) HighInBC: I agree that ToBeFree's involvement has been administrative, there is no WP:INVOLVED content-oriented issue that I am aware of. — Paleo Neonate – 13:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC) CutePeach: In relation to using ProcrastinatingReader as an example, Plain folks and Argumentum ad populum may matter. They're also not a SPA and this report is not about them, of course. Editors come from various backgrounds and have their own beliefs, the important is to ensure that the content in the encyclopedia, instead of reflecting those, reflects the conclusions of the majority of reliable sources on the topic. This is not a "pro-believer" witch hunt afterall... — Paleo Neonate – 14:33, 26 July 2021 (UTC) Regarding this, it's concerning, although not very surprising, to see evidence of waging this anti-WP/mainstream campaign off-WP... — Paleo Neonate – 07:29, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by ColinI have attempted to mediate on a couple of Covid19 articles, where I have seen problematic editing, mindsets and a lack of desire to seek consensus. I don't think I've been successful to any significant degree. While I may personally attribute that to the stubbornness of those involved on all sides, it may also be my failure. IMO there are flaws with editors/editing on all sides but we're here to discuss CutePeach, not to fire off "but you smell too" cheap arguments. CutePeach in particular is overwhelming talk pages with soapboaxing. And while all editors have at times falling into the trap of trying to argue the science from primary sources, CutePeach is particularly prone to simply arguing what they feel is "the science" with other editors, rather than proposing (or writing) text and backing that up with reliable secondary sources. Edits to articles (such as those few listed at the very top here) fall into the style we often see on bad controversy topics, where editors attempt to argue the case in front of the readers. The first link is a particularly egregious example: "SARS-COV-2 was well adapted for human transmission from its early emergence...co authored a paper which included claims of possible genetic engineering, which they submitted to a journal, and were edited out in the peer review process". This hints to the readers that some scientists think covid was genetically engineered to be well adapted for human transmission, and at the same time hints at some conspiracy to cover it up. Both claims are outstanding and The World Should Know! Despite the RFCs about MEDRS, there remains a lot of misinformation. Let's be clear. A claim on Wikipedia that covid was genetically engineered requires an academic secondary source of the first order, not some Norwegian "bourgeois magazine". The other two sources paywalled, hmm. We need to be extremely careful when discussing scientific controversy that it doesn't just become a mechanism for agenda editing to mislead. While I agree with DGG that at times editors have sought the "Wikipedia should say nothing" approach, which just leads to frustration and doesn't serve our readers, we also need to prevent Wikipedia becoming the Dail Mail, where any contentious or dubious statement by some scientists somewhere is offered credulously to our readers. I entirely disagree with DGG's assessment that this AE is just a game play to remove an opponent. Cutepeach is an editor who's account has always been solely focussed on promoting the lab leak hypothesis on Wikipedia, and despite lots of editors attempting to explain how Wikipedia works, they aren't getting it. Cutepeach's talk page discussions belong on a social media forum and article writing belongs on a personal blog. -- Colin° Talk 10:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC) ProcrastinatingReader: Both you and DGG make arguments that view Cutepeach as a pawn in a game, or fighter in a battle for NPOV. DGG's claim (about removing an opponent) could be made about nearly all disputes where editors argue for sanctions, and is unprovable without some kind of editor-thought-MRI-scanner technology. You argue that Cutepeach's extreme position is a necessary balance for other editors with different views, view which you frame as pro-lab-leak and vice-versa, as though there are only two sides. The BBC once made that mistake, thinking "balance" on topics like global warming or MMR meant that for every expert you interviewed, you had to have some weirdo too. They eventually saw sense on that. NPOV isn't about balance as though there are two sides to every argument. There are many sides and but often one side is noisier than is warranted by their acceptance among reliable sources. WP:NPOV is "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." (my bold) A SPA editor who has a clear editorial bias, is pushing a minority and political agenda, and who after months of advice is still (a) pushing their agenda in articles with bad sources and (b) trying to convince others about the "science" with walls of text (see their talk 15:56 24th), is not helping NPOV at all. I suggest instead that editors tend more to take extreme "not give an inch" positions when there is persistent agenda-editing pushing a minority POV. The walls of argument on talk is also off-putting to other editors who may take a more unbiased view. -- Colin° Talk 10:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC) My very best wishes, wrt claims about genetic engineered Covid. Read what I said carefully. I'm not going to get into a covid argument on this page. But, Trump, yes, that's a big news story about "what Trump said / reaction". Random scientist making similar claim, no. That's a well tried POV pushing tactic and there are "scientists" and "doctors" who believe and say just about anything if you google hard enough. If you still aren't sure, feel free to ask at WT:MED. -- Colin° Talk 11:33, 26 July 2021 (UTC) My very best wishes (again), arguments about sourcing rules wrt covid are an endless meta distraction, and I don't understand why you think an AE request on another user is the place to discuss your personal opinion, which disagrees with core policy. Again, if you wish to know better why you are wrong, and specifically wrong about the RFC, please ask at WP:MED. Please try to stay focused on the topic here. -- Colin° Talk 12:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by ProcrastinatingReaderAt this point I've reported several users who happen to have pro-lab-leak editing philosophies and none vice versa. The former group has historically been substantially more disruptive, although currently I think the latter is probably more of a problem, and better at it too since they tend to be more experienced users. It really isn't that difficult to edit neutrally, and just sum up reliable sources without bringing in your own personal philosophy on the issue and let the sources speak for themselves. Over half of the regulars in this topic area seem incapable of doing that, though. The behavioural issues stem as a result. Let's be realistic, nobody in 'the other group' will be sanctioned. I think that's relevant here because if you remove every editor on one side of the issue I don't know how we can reach NPOV in this topic area. CutePeach is certainly a single purpose account. [78] Several of their comments have no basis in policy. They also make some where they are right. I don't think they are a net negative in this topic area at this time. Their volume of commentary is also not so great such that they're an undue burden on others' time. CutePeach has, in some cases, exercised with restraint, such as when their "COVID-19 cover-up" article was draftified; policy allows them to move it back and force others to hold a deletion discussion, although they chose not to do that, presumably believing it would be more collaborative not to. Personally, I think we need to put an end to the seeking of non-standard venues for discussions in this topic area, and that starts with no more damn MFDs, no more attempts to avoid building consensus in this topic area, and no more ignoring the outcomes of consensus discussions. The path to a stable article that follows our policies, if not through self-reflection, is through discussion. The most corrosive type of editor, thus, is one that is a hurdle in allowing those discussions to take place properly (through bludgeoning, for example, or through persistent long rambling arguments and derailing of discussions). CutePeach, in my experience and at this time, does not tick those boxes. As such, I don't see how the topic area is helped by sanctioning them. I think CutePeach's voice is necessary to reach NPOV in the topic area. My main concern is their misuse of primary sources, but I think that's something they can work on. +1 to DGG's
Statement by SgnpkdI have been on wiki for more than ten years but this is my first time posting here. I personally think the amount of persistent hostilities from RandomCanadian and Shibolethink towards an editor who have opposing view is alarming. CutePeach might try to push an idea here but one also cannot help seeing a pattern as if there is a single purpose tendency to reject all other opinions added to these articles, and to censor even factual events. It is observed that users who made construtive updates to these articles, fully backed with reliable sources, usually have their edits reverted, redacted, even got the individual wordings changed or twisted to change the meaning towards a certain view. The fact that the adminitrators are not aware of this is concerning. I would support per WP:BOOMERANG for filing a case for "offences" that Mr Ernie has pointed out above, ie. the same thing that CutePeach was accused of. The users I mentioned who have posted here should also be scrutinised for WP:SEALION. Sgnpkd ( talk) 18:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by 力We seem to be waiting, though I'm not sure why. Two facts seem fairly clear.
Beyond that, the diffs from Shibbolethink and Bakkster Man do not convince me that a block or topic-ban is necessary. Many of their diffs are simply opinions they don't like; the sea of all-caps policy links that are claimed to be violated are not actually violated. The accusations that they are promoting FRINGE views are particularly cynical; the pro-lab-leak views are considered fringe for no apparent reason other than that a few editors don't like them. If the US government, the head of the WHO, various pundits, and half the US public feel a lab leak is possible, it is surely not FRINGE to suggest as much. I'm not as familiar with CutePeach, but have interacted with several of the "anti-lab-leak" editors who have commented here, and largely agree with DGG's view on them. That said, the behavior of other editors is off-topic here; either a new ARE or a request for a full ARBCOM case would be the place to discuss their behavior. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:51, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Statement by The Four DeucesI don't see any violation. CutePeach added to an article about the COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis that a group of scientists from the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard University wrote a paper defending the hypothesis, which was rejected. When another editor removed it, they reverted. This information is arguably relevant since the paper received coverage in popular media. WP:FRINGE does allow some mention of fringe theories provided they are noteworthy and the degree of their acceptance is explained. This type of dispute should be resolved on article talk pages. If an editor is outnumbered then it should be dealt with as edit-warring. But one revert doesn't amount to that. TFD ( talk) 17:48, 27 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by ForichI oppose using preprints in articles related to COVID-19 origin, specially in light of Wikipedia:General_sanctions/COVID-19#Application_notes. However, I've noticed that this sanction guideline requires update because many editors (including top anti-lab leak editor RandomCanadian) are starting to be more lax with the grey area of what requires MEDRS and what doesn't. If virologists weren't so afraid to touch the subject we all would had many secondary reviews by now directly citing the lab leak and none of this Wikipedia drama will be happening, its a shame. I encourage CutePeach to i) not use preprints; ii) in the grey area case that the preprint gets cited in many other RS, seek consensus first in Talk pages before including any mention of a preprint, however tangential. Finally, I concur with DGG who observed how a group of experienced editors are setting traps to the new ones, so that they bite and end up topic banned. Don't the prey editors have nothing better to do with their time? Sigh Forich ( talk) 18:19, 27 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by JPxGI saw this from the
dashboard, and have been away for a few days, so I am writing this long after every smart thing has been said by someone else. Broadly, I agree with the points mady by Atsme, DGG, Nil Einne, My very best wishes, ProcrastinatingReader and 力. I have been, against my better judgment, following the lab leak saga on Wikipedia for a number of months. It has been nasty, dumb, convoluted and overall unpleasant; there have been a neverending slew of disputes and proxy disputes carried out in a variety of different venues. In a recent AfD, off the top of my head I could recall Statement by Levivich@ ToBeFree: I'm not understanding how that block was within policy. Levivich 16:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I don't agree with how you've handled this, TBF, and I'd ask you not to repeat this in the future. Meaning, if someone is reported here, do not tell them not to edit in the topic area (or not to edit an article) while this is pending; we don't have "pre-trial probation" or "restraining orders" like that as part of our policies/guidelines/norms. If you want to do a unilateral DS TBAN, then do it (and take all the ADMINACCT that comes with it). If you don't want to do that, then don't tell editors not to edit in a topic area pending a decision. Because what you did was to effectively TBAN them by telling them not to edit the article. Additionally, they complied with your request (they didn't edit the article), but then when they made related talk page edits, you enforced your TBAN with a block (and required implementation of the TBAN as an unblock condition, which ties the hands of other admins, and is, again, an effective TBAN by you, except it's unlogged... just go log it and unblock the editor, or unblock the editor, restore their edits, and let someone else truly handle this). Again, this is before a TBAN was actually implemented and logged. I don't think that's kosher. Either TBAN the editor, and if they're not TBANed, don't block them for violating a TBAN-that's-coming. It's not how the block tool is supposed to be used. (Same with reverting their edits.) You accuse the editor gaming but from where I'm sitting, it seems like you're gaming by imposing a TBAN without formally imposing (logging) the TBAN. I know your intentions are good faith but my point is "gaming" is very subjective. Levivich 19:52, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Adoring NannyIt's difficult to go through a list of 21 diffs. So I'm just going to look at the first one [79] User:Shibbolethink complains that User escalates dispute about gain-of-function into dispute about all of COVID origins. That's curious, since the list of bullet points that User:CutePeach is responding to, on the version [80] of the page immediately preceding the CutePeach edit, is about covid origins. So what is the escalation? Furthermore, in the discussion, Shibbolethink is using [81] a source that describes a bioweapon origin as a Conspiracy Theory to argue that Gain of Function should be treated, in WikiVoice, as a Conspiracy Theory. That's a strange leap. An experienced editor would know not to use the word "disingenuous" as the word "disingenuous" refers to motivation. But, as others have noted, CutePeach has only been around for a few months. The upshot is that the very first of the 21 diffs is weakish. In light of that, I'm not inclined to go into depth on the remaining 20. Adoring nanny ( talk) 01:21, 3 August 2021 (UTC) Result concerning CutePeach
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Indefed as an admin action -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 01:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Santamoly
Discussion concerning SantamolyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SantamolyI'm surprised at the energy going into blocking me from editing, especially when anyone can see that my edits are simple corrections of typos or minor details. Am I that much of a menace on Wikipedia? I have no idea, but it's truly fascinating to see the people involved in seeing that I don't succeed in my little edits. Have these people nothing else to do? Are they prowling about Wikipedia looking for unauthorized spelling corrections? Or removing clumsy vandalism? Please, look at my edits (three are listed above). Are some Wikipedia admins frightened by my simple edits? I have no idea. Please keep me posted! FWIW, I actually stopped editing in my area of expertise (aeronautical engineering and certification) as requested 4 or 5 years ago. I've got 15 years of Wikipedia contributions on engineering topics. I've also stopped editing in medical technology. So the quality of engineering discussion has gone down somewhat since I'm a certified graduate engineer with years of experience. But I don't want to contribute to Wikipedia if several hours work can be removed in a blink because someone decides that Iraq is "Eastern Europe broadly construed", or that Boeing can't be discussed because it uses Russian titanium forgings. I get it. Wikipedia doesn't want my expertise, and I'm OK with that. But I'm puzzled by the reaction to simple edits of no great consequence. Look at the list below. Six editors have spent hours studying this issue and responding. Now they're wondering why I'm not responding. I'm not indifferent to the effort expended on this topic, but I'm puzzled by the energy going into it. I don't think anyone has any idea why I'm being blocked. I, too, have no idea! Perhaps there's something I'm not aware of? Santamoly ( talk) 04:50, 2 August 2021 (UTC) Statement by PaleoNeonateTopic ban decision: Statement by (username)Result concerning Santamoly
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BengHistory is indefinitely topic banned from all South Asian social groups, broadly construed. Johnuniq ( talk) 10:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC) |
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Request concerning BengHistory
Discussion concerning BengHistoryStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BengHistoryI am simply amazed that Trangabellam and Ekdalian have complained about me whereas it is they who have been acting with a non-neutral attitude. The talk-page is there for the respected admins to see so I am confident that they would easily be able to judge the events that took place there. I just want to draw attention of the respected adjudicators to the following points: BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 1) They at one point of time summarily rejected any Baidya authors (Sengupta for example, see Ekdalian's comments) deeming them as unreliable, and when I questioned the logic of that and explained that by their logic authors of other castes are also questionable, they accused me of distinguishing in terms of caste and misrepresented it to an admin. Great morality indeed, accusing the accuser for something committed by themselves (Ekdalian classified some editors as 'Baidya editors'). BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 2) They freely changed words and added their own while quoting a source (like 'indicated' has been changed to 'accorded', or 'apparently' has been added) in such a way that it changes the proposition entirely. Thus flouting WP:NPOV BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 3) One misquoted a source to portray a different picture of the caste-hierarchy in Bengal (viz. H Sanyal regarding Chandimangal) BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 4) One was putting exclamatory marks at the end of the statements and inserted words like 'apparently' (which visibly ridicules certain eminent persons), which were not there in the quoted sources. When challenged he came with a laughable explanation that he was following they style of the author. BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 5) Clear words like 'Semibrahmins' and 'fallen brahmins' were removed from a quote on the pretext of 'balancing the article with neutrality', 'agenda-free reading', and 'taking a practical view', all of which amount to WP:SYN BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 6) One did not come up with page numbers/quotes even when repetitively asked about the same regarding certain words. BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 7) Authors of repute like Nripendra Dutta have been termed as fanciful. BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 8) When I questioned Swarupa Gupta's reliability (they were always judging academic qualifications of sourced authors and I pointed out that she is a young research fellow), it was twisted to show me as having gender bias ! Such dishonesty! BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 9) One of them have been thoroughly disrespectful and have been using words like 'blabbering' and 'ramblings' and 'Do I care about your threats?', and now he is making a great noise about 'short-term memory loss' ! BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 10) An entire article is being centred upon the ritual status of a caste (and questioning the claim of that caste with a tone of disdain and selective referencing) which have little relevance for international readers, and important facts regarding that caste (literacy rates, for example) are being thrust in the small-fonted notes. As if it is only the ritual status that is worth considerations and all of the rest comes at best as a note. BengHistory ( talk) 10:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 11) There have been serious inconsistencies in selection of sources. At one point of time they disagreed to include Census reports as they are seemingly unreliable, quoting whatever poeple say. Now the same census reports are being quoted to opine that Baidyas' claims are on 'slender' grounds. BengHistory ( talk) 11:12, 30 July 2021 (UTC) 12) Trangabellam had removed all my replies to his questions from the talk-page, and when I referred to that he simply retorted that he was doing so because indentation of my replies was not in order. BengHistory ( talk) 11:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by EkdalianThe user BengHistory has been editing a related article on Vaid with the same intension of glorifying their caste. I have warned the user in his talk page (discretionary sanctions notice), and reverted his edits, explaining the same in the edit summaries as well as the user's talk page. In spite of all these, BengHistory has reverted my edits without any explanation! It is quite evident (from all his edits) that the user is here for promoting his caste only, and not to build an encyclopedia. I believe he should be blocked from editing as per WP:CASTE. Thanks. Ekdalian ( talk) 08:35, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Statement by (BengHistory)I am starting to contribute to wikipedia on topics I have focused on during my research days (mainly Ayurveda, Vaidyas of India, and Brahmin kingdoms). Does it mean that my edits in this page are unreliable by that reason only? Do I need to edit thousands of other pages which I have no clue about before I can contribute on something I have studied about? Mr. Ekdalian reverted all my additions by terming them 'unconstructive' (and suggested as if I am somehow not entitled to add or change anything in a page, cf. his comment on my userpage) without discussions, and he and Trangabellam have regularly posted threats of sanctions on my userpage (without any particular reference). All content added by me in the Vaid page was verbatim quotes from sources, the respected admin can see for himself/herself. Such vindictive attitudes will only discourage future contributors, and I request the admins here to take a note of it. BengHistory ( talk) 11:00, 30 July 2021 (UTC) Result concerning BengHistory
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User indefinitely blocked as an admin (not AE) action. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning অভিরূপ দাশশর্মা
WP:NOTHERE. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#BengHistory might be relevant.
Discussion concerning অভিরূপ দাশশর্মাStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by অভিরূপ দাশশর্মাStatement by (username)Result concerning অভিরূপ দাশশর্মা
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Manish9893 is indefinitely topic banned from all pages and discussions concerning India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed ( WP:ARBIPA). Johnuniq ( talk) 09:04, 11 August 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Manish9893
Done. Discussion concerning Manish9893Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Manish9893When the google search and many documents clearly show that his age is 43 years And his reign started in 1178 And Death in 1192 Which is clearly 14-15 Years What is the sole need for mentioning dashrath verma quote that his age was 26 years at death. When the Pictures of him at various places show him as a well aged man which is 40+ How come he, born in 1166, becomes king at 1178. This Section was Not needed. Statement by (username)Result concerning Manish9893
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