AndresHerutJaim notified of the WP:ARBPIA restrictions. No other action taken. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning AndresHerutJaim
Discussion concerning AndresHerutJaimStatement by AndresHerutJaimMy intention was to remove unexplained and arbitrary changes on the Givati Brigade article. I never meant to offend anyone.-- AndresHerutJaim ( talk) 23:52, 21 November 2010 (UTC) It seems that, after all, I wasn't so wrong. The tendentious information was removed from the article.-- AndresHerutJaim ( talk) 03:51, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning AndresHerutJaimClearly this user is not that knowlegdable in the inner workings and slick moves that prevail in the I-A conflict, but I don't think we should act consistently with three threads above, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Sherif9282. We should take full advantage of this opportunity and atleast block him if not ban him. Then we should block his sockpuppet. All kinds of exciting stuff in the pipeline.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:10, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Question and comment - The article didn't have the 1RR notices at the time the reverting was happening. AndresHerutJaim, would you have made the 2nd revert if you had seen the notices ? The reason I ask is that you refer to reliably sourced information as "Ridiculous anti-Israel bias", "vandalism", "anti-Israel accusations" and "tendentious information". I would like to see you confirm that you would not have made the second revert if the notices had been in place. The information itself is about the IDF putting things right according to their rules so I really have no idea where the "anti-Israel" is coming from and it's being reported by the BBC, AFP, the Israeli press and probably many other sources so I'm not sure what all the wiki-edit-war fuss is about either but I guess it will be sorted out on the talk page now. I do think it would help though if you confirmed that you are willing to follow 1RR in cases like this in future. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Speedy close with no sanctions Sherif9282 was only warned, doing something different to the user in question will be more than unfair.-- Mbz1 ( talk) 04:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Speedy close with warning I agree with Mbz1 for the reasons stated. Sanctions need to be issued on a consistent basis. Issuing a sanction here when Sherif9282 was not sanctioned for precisely the same offense strikes me as patently unfair. In addition, he's got a clean record, has never been issued an ARBPIA warning and according to his home page, English is not his first language so he may not have been well-versed with the restriction. Moreover, unlike the case involving Sherif, the 1RR sanction notice was placed on the page only after the alleged violation. All these facts militate in the respondent's favor. A warning should be sufficient-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 19:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC) @PK: He can't self-revert since I already reverted back to it. Roland should have used the talk page instead of reverting per BRD. AHJ should not have made the second revert (although he was not aware of the possible sanctions) and he should not have marked it as removing vandalism. So I simply put it back to its state before the contentious edit. Roland has still not responded on the talk page even though AHJ opened a discussion on it. Per BRD, Aa42john should have been the one to open it. Of course BRD is only a suggestion and we should be happy one of the editors actually initiated use of the talk page. Cptnono ( talk) 20:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
ARBPIA specifically says the following: Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision. AndresHerutJaim has never been notified of ARBPIA according to WP:ARBPIA#Log of notifications. You could argue that if the article had the 1RR notice that was enough of a notification, but that isnt even the case here. I dont think it would be fair to issue an ARBPIA sanction for a 1RR violation the user did not know existed under the authority of a case that the user may not have know existed. The user should be notified of ARBPIA and everybody else can call it a day. nableezy - 01:03, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Phil. The edit which was tagged as vandalism upon removal is clearly a violation of WP:ARBPIA. It doesn't make much sense asking someone reinsert an WP:ARBPIA vio into article space. The logical move is to note the user what the problem was in their conduct and warning them to avoid repetition. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 01:26, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning AndresHerutJaim
If AndresHerutJaim self-reverts, then I don't think any further action would be necessary. PhilKnight ( talk) 20:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
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Cptnono blocked 3 hours for incivility |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Cptnono
I dont understand why an Arab Muslim (me) should be required to give a user who says that he is "anti-Arab" and that Islam is "problematic" any type of assumption of good faith. In fact I cant see how it is expected that I should show Cptnono anything other than overt hostility. An editor repeatedly makes negative comments about others ethnicity and religion and all people have to say is "boo"? I also wonder why the very same users who demand that I be blocked for calling an editor an "idiot" are here saying that the very user who made the complaint about me calling another editor an "idiot" that resulted in my being blocked should not have any sanctions imposed after calling another user a "prick". This is all very fascinating and enlightening. nableezy - 21:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning CptnonoStatement by CptnonoI completely violated the decorum section of the decision (4.1.2). I have been doing it a lot lately since I assumed it did not matter to anyone in the topic area anymore. I see it two ways, I would be happy to be more civil or I could receive the same treatment Nableezy receives for his incivility (a pass without any modification to the behavior). Both seem fair but I really should not get in the habit of calling other editors pricks and will refrain from such pointed attacks. And I made it clear that I see the Arab governments and the predominant religion over there as problematic. Nableezy is the one who ignored the clarification and assumed the worst. I have been neutral compared to many editors in the topic area so even if I was a racist I don't think my editing history shows blatant bias (although I do tend to favor the Israeli side in edits for the most part). Nableezy forgot to mention that I attempted to emulate his page with some material showing extreme bias that was offensive. [9] Eventually removed after some thought on it since it looked like a little too far. I know where the lines are and chose to ignore them. I don't mind being more cautious but it would be appreciated if the same rules applied to Nableezy. Cptnono ( talk) 17:05, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I just had a really interesting corresponding via email with another editor. I would like to thank the editors who are supporting me. Please keep in mind though that I am the one who made a mistake recently. I was acting like another editor since I thought I could get away with it. It was stupid and it is clear that I also did more than just ruffle feathers. So to those that were offended: I understand why and apologize. I don't want one but I'm not going to say I don't deserve some sanction. Cptnono ( talk) 00:26, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning CptnonoSpeedy Close with no sanction: He's recognized the mistake, expressed contrition with a promise not to repeat. Move on.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 17:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Comment: Cptnono may think that offensive comments "do not matter to anyone"; but he did not consult me before making his gratuitous and totally unwarranted attack. Had he done so, I would have told him that I do indeed mind being called a prick. Now he suggests that this is OK, because he believes that Nableezy has behaved similarly. As far as I am aware, Nableezy has never made any such crude attacks on anyone; if he had, that would be grounds for censure, not for emulation. As Nableezy points out, this comment was part (and not actually the most offensive) of a pattern of editing by Cptnono. He suggests above that this was in order to prove a point, he offers no apology, and he appears to make compliance with Wikipedia norms conditional upon the treatment of other editors. None of this is acceptable, and the issue should not be simply ignored. I think that Cptnono should be given a strong civility warning, with the stipulation that any further such edits will invoke appropriate, and increasing, sanctions. RolandR ( talk) 17:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment: Editors don't have to like each other, that's fine. We can all secretly despise each other and dream of putting spiders in our e-nemesis's pillow or call each other nasty names as long as things chug along more or less as usual. But when you come out as actively opposed to an ethnic group and a religion, you have just killed any possible assumption of neutrality or good faith when editing those articles and alienated any editor from those groups and beyond. Questioning the need for an article, not on its merits but because "How many separate articles do we need on the Palestinians being sad?" or to "Call it 'Palestinians getting screwed with giant dildos' as far as I am concerned.", is hilariously bad-faith. Sorry, Cpt, but I'm leaning towards the same result I'd expect if it were my ethnicity/religion: topic ban. Sol ( talk) 20:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment: I find it somewhat amusing that a user who regularly tells people to "fuck off" [13] [14] suddenly cares so much about decorum. As for all these arguments about alienating others, again, that would have a bit more weight if it come from someone who didn't have a Hizbollah user box or a poem saying "now I have a gun, take me to Palestine" on his user page. No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 20:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment: as the receiving end to a good number of provocations and no-comment reverts by Nableezy (e.g. "somebody with a 4 year old's understanding of English can see that" [16]). Nableey has an amazing statistic as the leader of wikipedia among people who opens enforcement requests against fellow editors, usually done after he tag-teams with another editor with a world-view similar to his who quickly comments on these complaints. Just recently, Nableezy complained that he was accused as a liar, demanding sanction -- soon afterwards he followed that up by "suggesting" others are liars. Obviously, I feel that Cptonio has been caught with a few violations of proper conduct, but when you place the context where he was being provoked by a tag-team, one of whom has a lengthy block and ban log which includes 4 months this year alone (Nableezy) -- I would suggest banning both parties for a short time-span for provoking each other and letting matters escalate like this without making an effort to resolve the issue properly. If the parties involved would make comments that they will make an effort to avoid each other, than a sanction should be avoided though. To further illustrate my point, I note how even on talk-pages he requires oversight (btw, a good decision PhilKnight). [17] Jaakobou Chalk Talk 21:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Sample discussion with Nableezy (pasted from
Talk:Gideon_Levy#focuses_on_the_Israeli_occupation):
Comment: Although incivility and behavioral issues were addressed at the recent ARBPIA pow-wow, admins chose to focus on other issues, and the AE filing spree has continued. Cptnono you were wrong in your behavior, as has Nableezy been in his past behavior. Cat and mouse never works for anyone involved. Unfortunately when these things are opened it becomes a mess of "he said, she said, they said" which does nothing but polarize individuals even more and create further distrust and disruption in the community. Nobody ever becomes permanently topic banned in these filings, which is perhaps a shortcoming of the process. That said, I implore CPT and Nableezy to refrain from using terminology that they even have the slightest inkling may be considered offensive. It takes a "bigger man" to step back and walk away in moments of heated discussion than to say something "off the cuff". Apologies mean nothing, if it is just a recurrent word not followed by action. -- nsaum75 ¡שיחת! 21:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Comment As I stated earier, Cptnono has recognized the lapse, expressed contrition with a promise not to repeat. So let's move on and not waste anymore time with this nonsense.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 21:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Stop using profanities I wish everyone would just never ever use bad words. Is it really too much to ask? Cptnono once used the most horrible language on my talk page and did not agree to remove it at first. Why do people have to swear? Why bring immature, crude playground talk onto wiki? Even reading these awful words on this page make e cringe. A little self control, please. Chesdovi ( talk) 22:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC) @PhilKnight: At the top of this page it says "Anyone requesting enforcement who comes with unclean hands runs the risk of their request being summarily denied or being sanctioned themselves". Would you say Nableezy came here with clean hands? No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 23:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Tijfo098: "I actually think we need more white supremacists editing here". Happy Thanksgiving! Tijfo098 ( talk) 04:05, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Comment by Lanternix Just a comment here. I quote user Nableezy when he/she says: I dont understand why an Arab Muslim (me) should be required to give a user who says that he is "anti-Arab" and that Islam is "problematic" any type of assumption of good faith. I am sorry, but since when exactly is it wrong to say that Islam is problematic??? Is it wrong wrong to say that, say, Nazism is problematic??? What if I, or other people for that matter, believe that Islam is a worse ideology than Nazism, that Islam calls for killing innocent non-Muslim civilians, and that Islam has been behind so many crimes throughout history for the past 1500 years??? Should we just shut up and be politically correct because the feeling of some people, like user Nableezy, are going to be hurt??? Until when will this favoritism for Islam exist? YES, Islam IS problematic AND criminal and there is NOTHING wrong with saying that! -- λⲁⲛτερⲛιξ [talk] 04:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
SUGGESTION How about we all just, like, grow up? This "wiki-lawyering" is seriously lame. If someone makes a completely unprovoked attack on someone, fine, they should be sanctioned. But if we're dealing with two editors (or two groups of editors) who clearly hate each other, either topic ban them both permanently, or let them have at it. Surely constantly nominating each other for breeches of civility is a complete waste of time. And for the record, surely anyone should be able to say they don't like Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Religion, Arabs, Jews, Israelis, or that they support Hamas, Hizbollah, Hitler, Irgun, and whatever or whoever else, without being threatened with topic-banning on those same subjects! Some sanity people please! Surely a lot of the best info on the Adolf Hitler article comes from his admirers, and surely a lot of the best info on Israel comes from her detractors. HarunAlRashid ( talk) 10:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment: This may be my first time weighing in in favor of an enforcement action. Cptnono, I went to you directly instead of even considering AE after the "sad Palestinains" comment, but I was just aghast over the "dildos" follow-up. I do appreciate your deleting the incivil remarks. However, the animus you illustrated in trivializing the experience of Palestinians by both remarks 2 and 3 suggests that you are simply hostile at this time to Wikipedia coverage of the oppression of Palestinians. As Sol said above, "you have just killed any possible assumption of neutrality or good faith when editing those articles." I can't find the retraction convincing right away, nor can I assume good faith. I think a temporary topic ban is appropriate.-- Carwil ( talk) 15:42, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Comment: What Cptnono has done is wrong (on a number of levels) and completely out of character. OTOH, topic ban for any significant lentgh of time seems to be inpappropriate for such a good contributer. Sorry, but I can see it is as a battleground action by Nableezy. I think these guys need to be instructed to work together to build encyclopedia. I know that dispite this, you guys CAN work together. Please try harder. I know, in particular, that cptnono can write from NPOV and I think Nableezy can too. Not easy but there is no other way. Sorry. BTW Nableezy asked to consider this in the context of his block for calling someone an idiot. Nableezy's block was for 3 hours, right? That could be more appropriate for cptnono than a topic ban. - BorisG ( talk) 17:04, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Comment I'll put down my popcorn and make an observation. Very, very few contributors here have actually focussed on the issue - that cptnono was clearly abusive, several times, but has made a - somewhat tardy - apology (before the AE would have been far better, but I absolutely commend his efforts to stop "supporters" going off on one). How about you all stop trying to compare this offence with every other offence ever committed by any of the editors in this area? It's like a bonsai version of the real IP conflict. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 17:23, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Cptnono
I'll wait to see if other admins post here, but my initial comment is that saying the editor shouldn't be sanctioned, because the person filing this report is alleged to be just as uncivil isn't a particularly good argument. PhilKnight ( talk) 22:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC) |
Ronda2001 blocked for 48 hours. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ronda2001
The IP editor is quite plainly Ronda2001, based on this edit where he takes part in a discusion Ronda2001 was notified of, and also makes the same claims about his own credentials as here. Both the account and IP were notified yet made the third revert, that is in addition to the edit notice warning of 1RR. I am unsure on the best way forward. The editor is obviously new, but is editing in such a grossly point-of-view way I do not know if reform is possible. There may have been some constructive improvements buried in the article somewhere, but it is difficult to know where to begin looking as I am not overly familiar with the subject. I do know enough to recognise obvious point-of-view though.. O Fenian ( talk) 00:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Ronda2001Statement by Ronda2001I am new to wiki - its true- but not new to the subject of the Lebanese war as it is the topic of my research at The university where i am an associate lecturer- please examine the article based on the FACT that this is well researched (the firts scetion before you get to the bit on militia's) and referenced with the most seminal peer-reviewed research on the topic of the pLO in Lebanon- and NOT based on hearsay and psuedo-intellectual sources found on the internet. Again I repeat that Yezid Sayigh "armed struggle and search for a state", Rex Brynen's "Sanctuary and Survival", Michael Johnsons "Class and Client in Beirut", Farid Khazens "the breakdown of the state in Lebanon" are the most eminent works in the field on the civil war in Lebanon and the PLO in Lebanon. I provide specific page numbers for people to look up the facts quoted. I respect the democratic attempt by wiki to arbitrate between different ideas and allow a platform for different views- but really when such poor research is involved- it should not be given the equivalent platform as sound established and peer-reviewed research- the outcome is not democratic when fringe ideas , ideological and rhetorical accounts of history are given free reign- AS IF THEY WERE EQUIVALENT TO THE LIKEs OF SAYIGH AND JOHNSON. previous versions of this site are referenced with extremely impoverished and Fringe sources- the list of extended readings contain some acceptable resources- yet the article contains nothing of the information in this extended list Comments by others about the request concerning Ronda2001Comment by VsevolodKrolikov This seems to be a clear case of someone who does not understand how wikipedia works, and in two very crucial areas.
Wikipedia's success is based upon a series of principles that have enabled volunteers with all kinds of expertise and none to work together mostly harmoniously to create good content. We need people with knowledge and expertise, but it's part of the package that their influence extends as far as what they offer, not who they are. Because this editor may actually have a lot to contribute to the encyclopedia, I would ask for a statement by the user that s/he has read and understood the appropriate policy pages on interactions with others and on NPOV editing, and understands that up to now s/he hasn't been following these principles. With that forthcoming, we might want to avoid a block. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 03:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Ronda2001
Given the editor has made 3 reverts on an article clearly tagged as having a 1RR restriction, there isn't an option of suggesting a self-revert. Under the circumstances, I'm considering a 24 hour block be applied to the logged in account and IP. PhilKnight ( talk) 00:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
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I'm looking for advice about how to handle a situation in the Israel-Palestine area, from admins who might be willing to keep a close eye on it. I've been working on this article slowly since May 2009 with a view to taking it to featured article status. It's about a crucial issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the expulsion of over 50,000 Palestinians from their homes in Lydda and Ramle in 1948. Although it's a crucial issue, it's not a hugely contentious one, because modern mainstream historians on both sides agree there were expulsions and also agree that there was a massacre just before the expulsions took place.
I recently started the final round of copy editing, prompted by User:Noisetier, who wants to translate it and nominate it for featured article status on the French Wikipedia. I was able to find an academic historian who is familiar with the topic, and who kindly agreed to review the article. He has written a 14-page review, with suggestions for how to improve neutrality and reliability. What I would like to do is fix the article up along the lines he suggested, then take it to peer review for uninvolved input, and then to FAC.
The article was stable, and had hardly been edited recently. But today several editors with strong views on both sides of the conflict have arrived, and one has already started to remove sourced material he doesn't like, [29] along with adding material sourced to bible.org to the lead. I'm only able to revert once a day, so there really is no way I can protect the article against this kind of editing.
I'm unsure how to approach this within the ArbCom restrictions, and would appreciate advice. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 13:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
To the people complaining about the article: This is not an appropriate venue for discussing whether we like a topic or not (tho note anyone who tries too hard to make an article controversial might end up back here;) and perhaps more importantly we most certainly do not get to decide what other editors spend their time on.-- Misarxist 08:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Ferahgo blocked for 3 days by MastCell. For instructions on how to appeal, please see WP:AEBLOCK. NW ( Talk) 23:35, 26 November 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
Ferahgo the Assassin has edited an article on the biography of a scientist connected with Race and intelligence (as mentioned explicitly in the article and one of the external links). She reverted an edit by WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk · contribs), about whom both she and Captain Occam have made multiple complaints. She reverted the addition of a reference in the further reading section connected with eugenics. The lede mentions eugenics in the first sentence.
Discussion concerning Ferahgo the AssassinStatement by Ferahgo the AssassinThis has got to be one of the most frivolous AE threads I've ever seen. I'm topic banned from "race and intelligence-related articles", and Henry Fairfield Osborn is a paleontologist. I have the articles for several dozen paleontology-related topics on my watchlist; anyone can see from my contributions that this is my editing area of choice. If someone makes an edit to an article about a paleontologist which is on my watchlist that I explicitly disagree with, of course I'm going to challenge it. The article I edited mentions race and intelligence in only a single sentence, and the rest of the article is about his paleontology work. WeijiBaikeBianji attempted to make the article more focused on race and intelligence by adding a "further reading" section which talks only about Osborn's eugenics work, and none of his paleontology work. I don't think it's okay that Weiji can add information like this that’s mostly irrelevant to any paleontology article that I watch, and then expect me to not edit it because thanks to what he added it’s now under the scope of my topic ban. I agree with Maunus that this looks like baiting, and I also think it's a problem how Mathsci and Weiji appear to be working together to support Weiji's edits, despite Mathsci being topic banned from editing race and intelligence articles. Mathsci just posted another AE thread a few days ago that relates to this topic area, and it hasn’t even been closed yet. I really think it would be helpful to everyone here, including yourself, Mathsci, if you stop watching my contributions and this topic area - which you are banned from editing in - so closely, and let everyone get back to contributing to the encyclopedia. Additionally, I think that any administrators examining this thread ought to consider whether this pugnacious, aggressive behavior of Mathsci's that's been going on lately is at all similar to the behavior for which he was sanctioned in the arbitration case. Comments by others about the request concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
Result concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
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Dnkrumah self-reverted, and has been notified of the WP:ARBPIA case. No other action taken. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dnkrumah
"Also Da'oud, be careful about the 1RR restriction on this article described at the top of the talk page. You've made one revert so that is your limit for 24 hours. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)"
Discussion concerning DnkrumahStatement by DnkrumahThe only people edit warring are the people trying to present a biased point of view in the article. This is the article before I showing the original content of the article and my edit: [38] I simply changed this: In March 2010 a trial began for two Israel Defense Forces Staff Sergeants suspected of forcing a 9 year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they though might contain explosives. The charges against the soldiers are inappropriate conduct and violation of IDF authority. [1] If convicted, they could face three years in prison. Into this: In March 2010 a trial began for two Israel Defense Forces Staff Sergeants suspected of using a 9 year-old Palestinian boy, Majd Rabah, as a human shield by forcing him at gunpoint to open a number of bags the IDF soldiers though might contain explosives. The charges against the soldiers are inappropriate conduct and violation of IDF authority. [2] On October 3, 2010 both soldiers were convicted of reckless endangerment and conduct unbecoming. During sentencing the soldiers were placed on 2 years probation with a suspended sentence of a minimum three-month jail term if they commit another crime. Both soldiers were demoted from Staff Sergeant to Sergeant. [3] After this was posted a Cptnano went and removed the entire section. He did this without using the talk section. This had the effect of seriously slanting the article and making it very misleading. Since the prior paragraph's sentence states: In response to the report, a dozen English-speaking reservists who served in Gaza delivered signed, on-camera counter-testimonies via the SoldiersSpeakOut group, about Hamas "use of Gazans as human shields and the measures the IDF took to protect Arab civilians".[305][306] I made a revert at that point. I posted my reasoning in the talk section. After this another editor posted this: Setting aside the comments about bias and vandalism, I don't think this material qualifies for inclusion unless it is made clear why it's important. Here are some sources that might help to show why these cases are notable within the context of OCL and beyond.
After Sean posted I edited the information to add his suggestions and the article was brought to this point: [39] Now editor, Jiujitsuguy came along and again removed this section, again without seeking discussion. Plus he added factual errors to the article by claiming "resulted in the death of a non-combatant". The reference clearly says two women were killed. [40] This being the bottom section of the article and reference before he changed it: In June 2010, Israeli Advocate-General Avichai Mandelblit summoned a recently discharged soldier for a special hearing. The soldier was suspected of opening fire on Palestinian civilians when 30 Palestinians, including women and children waving a white flag moved towards an IDF position. The incident took place January 4th, 2009 killing 35-year-old Majda Abu Hajiji and her 64-year-old mother Salama. Israeli Advocate-General Avichai Mandelblit decided after the hearing to indict the IDF soldier, a member of the Givati Brigade, on a charge of manslaughter. [4] This being that section after he changed: In June 2010, Israeli Advocate-General Avichai Mandelblit summoned a recently discharged soldier for a special hearing. The soldier was suspected of opening fire on Palestinian civilians when a group of 30 Palestinians that included women and children waving a white flag, approached an IDF position. The incident, which occurred on January 4th, 2009 resulted in the death of a non-combatant. Israeli Advocate-General Avichai Mandelblit decided after the hearing to indict the IDF soldier, a member of the Givati Brigade, on a charge of manslaughter despite contradictory testimony and the fact that IDF investigators could not confirm that the soldier was in fact responsible for the death. [5] Now, after looking at the talk they claimed they wanted it shorter and for First sergeant to say soldier. In view of that and the factual error present I performed a rewrite and came up with the present version. This doesn't fall under the revert rule because their edits are Vandalism. These are therefore necessary edits and as an editor they are my job and I actually did take into consideration reasonable claims by both editors in making the edit. I also took into account that having an article falsely claiming one person was killed when the reference attached to it says two people were killed would negatively impact Wikipedia's image. Purpose of Wikipedia 1) Wikipedia is a project to create a neutral encyclopedia. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited. That is the purpose of Wikipedia and yet we have two people, that spend a lot of time on each others talk pages BTW coordinating activity, removing the same information. There is no question the information is factual and from the above links you can see that this information in an outdated version was present in the article prior to my edits. NPOV requires that this data is present and that accuracy of facts by Wikipedia:Verifiability is maintained. I am not going to allow anyone to use unverified statements and mislead under Wikipedia's name. Again that is my job as an editor. The section it was repeatedly removed from is entitled Accusations of Misconduct by the IDF. It is ridiculous for anyone to remove from such a section information from the last week or so that shows two IDF soldiers being convicted and sentenced in an Israeli court for a war crime. Particularly since prior to my edit the article contained information on the same two soldiers being charged with these crimes. Every statement I made is backed by a reliable source. Especially, considering the previous sentences which these two left intact state that the only human shields are used by Hamas and basically that the human rights groups accusing them are lying. Finally, no rule requires me to allow the willful transmission of unverified information using Wikipedia. In fact, all the rules require me to edit such information. Da'oud Nkrumah ( talk) 05:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC) Additional Statement: Wikipedia:Vandalism "Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. Vandalism cannot and will not be tolerated. Common types of vandalism are the addition of obscenities or crude humor, page blanking, and the insertion of nonsense into articles." Specifically Blanking Illigitimate would apply to Jijitsuguys removal of the sourced sections. "Sometimes referenced information or important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary." Furthermore, Jijitsuguy added nonsense to the article. This is exactly what Jijitsuguy did and the same accounts for Cptnono. Identifying the removal of verifiable sourced information and references without a valid reason I acted to fix the article. "If you find that another user has vandalized Wikipedia you should revert these changes." Furthermore, their action can only be considered not Vandalism if I consider them good faith. Even giving them benefit of the doubt it isn't good faith to delete this information when it is on topic, when it is well sourced and it builds on information already contained in the section. That is what decided the matter for me that it is Vandalism as opposed to edit warring on their part, that the information was already in the article just not up to date. Why delete it? You want to talk about talk pages? These two had every opportunity to use the talk pages and instead they chose to delete and add false and misleading information. When Sean came to the talk page and posted his view. I took that view into account and added it to the edit. I also took the advice to use soldiers instead of a specific rank and to condense the section into account in the rewrite. So, I am certainly seeking consensus and following the rules of Wikipedia. I can tell them you are not going to delete verified and well sourced information just because you don't like that the IDF were convicted of a war crime. It will stay there if I have to go to ArbCom.Vandalizing an article by deleting well sourced referenced information because you are pushing POV is outside the range of 1RR and my correcting such Vandalism is my job. Da'oud Nkrumah ( talk) 07:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning DnkrumahClarification - ...regarding Mbz's statement 'yet he chosen edit warring versus discussing on the talk page'. Actually Dnkrumah is doing both, breaking 1RR and discussing it on the talk page Talk:Gaza_War#Incident. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Dnkrumah
If Dnkrumah self-reverts, then I don't think any further action would be necessary. PhilKnight ( talk) 07:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
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To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
As far as I knew, this article was not covered by my topic ban. I actually did not notice that this article discussed race and intelligence until after Mathsci pointed this out in the AE thread - if you look at the diff of my initial statement there, I said I thought the article did not mention intelligence at all. After Mathsci mentioned this I updated my comment, stating in my edit summary that I hadn't previously noticed the article's single sentence which referred to this. As is evident from my contribs, I regularly edit paleontology articles, and I noticed the edit which I reverted because most articles about well-known paleontologists are on my watchlist. I don't think that a single sentence discussing race and intelligence should necessarily make this a "race and intelligence related article" which I'm therefore not allowed to edit. And if it does, then this was an honest mistake on my part, because I didn't notice this sentence in the article until after Mathsci pointed it out.
If I had been warned prior to this block that the article was covered by my topic ban, I would not have made another attempt to edit it (I made a second edit to the article while the AE thread was open, but at that point no one other than Mathsci was expressing an opinion that my topic ban covered this article). Since I have had no prior blocks for any reason, and it was not completely clear that my topic ban covered this article, the lack of a warning seems unusual. I'm also concerned by the lack of discussion among admins prior to the block. The AE thread was open for less than three hours before I was blocked, and MastCell blocked me before any other uninvolved admins had commented there. Of the other editors commenting in that thread, no one else felt that a block was an appropriate result. I don't think it's appropriate that on my first offense, I should be blocked for 72 hours with no warning and no discussion among uninvolved admins.
I think that the appropriate response in this case is a warning, and I would like my block to be replaced with that. If I am unblocked and warned that the Henry Fairfield Osborn article is covered by my topic ban, I will not attempt to edit it again as long as I remain banned from race and intelligence articles.
Comment by VsevolodKrolikov It was disappointing for the dispute with user:WeijiBaikeBianji to be seen as a vendetta by two editors that aggravated the supposed offence. It's not a matter of two editors, as the certified RFC regarding that user shows; other editors find his editing odd and at times tendentious. WBB has been adding various links as "further reading" to a number of articles (not just this book) which don't appear to be that necessary (and I'm not sure he's read them, so I don't think it's editorial recommendations as covered in WP:FURTHER); it seems to be a way of suggesting sources to other editors to integrate into the text (rather than doing it himself or using the talkpage). I don't think Ferahgo reverting WBB specifically should be seen as aggravating the situation. Anyone might have reverted that addition as not useful (after all, it's not a book dedicated solely or mostly to the article topic, and indeed heavily implies POV regarding what the topic is most notable before). I also think the closing was really far too swift, and it should be noted that MathSci does seem to be getting involved in disputes in this topic far too much for someone banned from it. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 08:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Mathsci In her two submissions to WP:AE, Ferahgo the Assassin wrote first that she was "removing material related to race and intelligence from the article", [44] and then that she was "removing material that made the article too focused on race and intelligence". [45] The edit to which she which she refers [46] is the addition of one book, unrelated to race and intelligence as far as I am aware, with the edit summary "added further reading section and citation to book". Her unfortunate choice of words in both edits indicates unambiguously that in her perception she was removing content explicitly related to the subject of her topic ban. In addition to her own perceptions, the article explicitly mentions the topic of racial differences in intelligence.
The two diffs above also cast aspersions on other editors which Ferahgo the Assassin has continued to make since the imposition of the topic ban of her boyfriend Captain Occam in August. On this occasion her wording suggests that she was following the edits of another editor in what she perceived to be the subject of her topic ban: she has placed herself in a long-standing, acrimonious but wholly one-sided dispute with this editor. Ferahgo the Assassin should take responsibility for her own actions, whatever her personal conspiracy theories might happen to be.
My topic ban was by mutual consent, unlike those of others sanctioned by WP:ARBR&I. It covers editing articles on this topic or their talk pages, broadly construed, but not process pages. I have no interest in how articles in the area of the topic ban are edited. I have, however, been monitoring violations of topic bans (for example the multiple antisemitic sockpuppets of Mikemikev ( talk · contribs): Juden Raus, Suarneduj, RLShinyblingstone, Oo Yun, etc). I removed this edit by Mikemikev from this page. [47] Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, possibly aided now by third parties, have continually tried to push the limits of their topic bans. In this latest instance Ferahgo the Assassin has made namespace edits directly related to her topic ban. Mathsci ( talk) 09:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Jayen466: I would have agreed that the sanction was a poor decision if the book had been a clearly inappropriate, coatracky addition to the Further reading section of Osborn's biography. If the book had had two or three passing mentions of Osborn, then Ferahgo should have been quite entitled to remove it, her topic ban on race and intelligence notwithstanding. However, looking at the book in google books, it does discuss Osborn, incl. Osborn's support for Grant's views on the superiority of the "Nordic" race, in detail. Osborn's name occurs on 100 pages of the book. In my view, this makes it an appropriate addition to the Further reading section, making Ferahgo's removal not justifiable on the grounds of WP:Undue, and bringing it within the scope of the topic ban. As such, I believe MastCell's block was justified. One might argue that 72 hours was long for what appears to be a first-time offence of the topic ban, but I agree with MastCell that the topic ban was violated. -- JN 466 11:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Addendum: Ferahgo appears to be correct in stating that the block was not preceded by any warning, as required by Wikipedia:AC/DS#Warnings:
Accordingly, the correct thing to do would be to lift the block, and convert it into a warning. -- JN 466 12:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment from Professor marginalia I have no opinion about whether the block might be lifted and a warning issued instead. But Ferahgo the Assassin's revert of WeijiBaikeBianji's edit was her very first edit to the Henry Fairfield Osborn article. It is more likely that she is continuing to monitor WeijiBaikeBianji's edits than it is he was deliberately baiting her to violate her topic ban when adding the "further reference" to two dozen articles she's never even edited. Henry Fairfield Osborn was one of the two chief architects and promoters of the American Eugenics Society-the other was his nephew. Eugenics and the superiority of European genes, including intellectual genes, was a significant aspect of his life's work. It was largely due to his influence and esteem in the scientific community that eugenics and biological superiority was "legitimized" in the early 20th century as science. So I think more clear eyed research of topics and less "paranoia" and "palace intrigue" would go a long way in sorting out legitimate editorial differences of opinion in the articles. And there would be a whole lot less disruption if editors would apply simple common sense to comply with existing sanctions rather than constantly pettifogging over their fine print for legal loopholes. Professor marginalia ( talk) 20:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
-- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 22:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
This is just a note (and opportunity for others to review) about some enforcement of Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Carl_Hewitt, in particular Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Carl_Hewitt#Post-case_clarification. The syndrome is multiple IP editors repeatedly adding material that pushes a POV favoring Hewitt's research, with references to Google Knol articles or Arxiv.org articles written by Hewitt. Today, I semi-protected Church-Turing thesis for 1 month. Gödel's incompleteness theorems has been under pending-changes protection for a while. It's an admittedly esoteric area, so only editors who have the pages on watchlist are likely to notice. I don't mind doing these protections, but since I'm a frequent editor in that area I wanted to make a post here for transparency. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 22:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The close from the admin included the following:
Shuki is very clearly one of those editors who holds "the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted" and further he "attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary". This request is meant to see if this "disruptive conduct" will be allowed to continue unabated.It is my impression that there is a body of editors of the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted; it is a valid opinion to be held by an individual so inclined, but it is not conducive to building an encyclopedia. Attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary must be resisted like any other form of disruptive conduct.
I have no doubt that as with most AE threads I am involved in we will see a large number of those who support Shuki or simply dislike me making rambling comments that are of little relevance to the issue. I hope they will be given the consideration they deserve and be ignored.
I do not see how an editor can in good faith claim that there was no finding for consensus for placement in the lead or for specific wording when the plain English quoted here shows that there is for both. nableezy - 18:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles
Regarding the proposed interaction bans, I think they are unnecessary. Cla68 is right, I cant dispute that, but there is a cause and effect here. The more nonsense that I deal with, the more of an asshole I become. I admit I havent really thought about how new people would react to seeing some of the discussions that the regulars have, but that is partially due to the fact that most of the "new" names we see are just old faces with new names. But Cla68 is right, and I will make an honest effort to be more collegial. I dont know how an interaction ban would work, we all edit the same articles. Would it be a race to see who gets to an article first and any editor who arrives later would be violating the ban? The workings of such a ban are impractical, and I think the issue can be satisfactorily dealt with by blocks and bans for future issues with personal attacks or incivility. Though I do think that restricting editors from making comments in AE requests that do not concern them is a marvelous idea. nableezy - 21:05, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The principle of this AE is that Nableezy is making false accusations and misrepresenting my opinion that he assumes even though I have never claimed what he is accusing me. I certainly do not deny that there was an effort to build consensus and did take part, but I do question that there was in fact consensus and the admin did not in fact close that but opening it up for more discussion. There was also no consensus on placement and that was also supposed to be done by consensus at that central location. Nableezy is not just being bold here but unwilling to continue this consensus building for fear that it might unravel as others are exposed to it (if they can manage to follow it) instead ramming it through. He himself admits that he was reverted by three editors, who in fact, did not really take part in that confusing and hard to follow discussion. Nableezy also chose to make these changes on Shabbat when he knows that there will be virtually no opposition. This is a frivolous and false AE.
It is incredible nerve and anti-AGF that he ends this AE attack by preempting the opposition and discrediting of anyone who might come here in support of me (it will take time, Shabbat will only be over on the West Coast in several hours and we cannot assume everyone runs to their PCs to get updated on WP). He even demands that they be ignored, very considerate and showing his intentions to shut up others. -- Shuki ( talk) 18:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
That is, he found there to be consensus for including the line The international community considers Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this. to the lead of the articles. You are making a pedantic dispute that Shuki did not even raise as the basis for this massive amount of wikilawyering that you have been engaged in. Stop making such purposefully dishonest arguments. nableezy - 17:15, 28 November 2010 (UTC)I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles.
Why are ignoring that LHvU repeatedly said that there is consensus for "proposal 2" in the lead of the article? Can you really have missed the now 4 times this line has been quoted, or are you just playing dumb? Consensus is not determined by numbers, it is determined by strength of argument and consistency with the policies of this website. Or, again quoting this same adminI found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles
Your purposefully misleading statement not withstanding, this is a simple problem. A set of editors, yourself included, have long attempted to remove any mention of the illegality of these colonies. When an uninvolved admin says there is consensus to include this fact in the lead of the articles, editors from this set have ignored that and disruptively removed it. No amount of wikilawyering changes these indisputable facts. nableezy - 17:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[C]onsensus is determined by weight of argument, based in policy and discussion, and not the number or the passion of support or opposition.
The whole reason the centralized discussion was proposed was due to editors (including Nableezy) edit warring and then opening up separate discussions. Seeing the exact same thing happening is disheartening. Yes, the admin did say there was consensus. He did not close it out which I could see leading to some confusion. I do not understand how the admin could see consensus for placement and I am not the only one. Supreme Deliciousness has been just as adamant as Nableezy in getting this line in and he opened up a discussion on placement after the admin's conclusion. I think Supreme Deliciousness should be applauded (didn't expect to hear that did you?) for his restraint over the last couple of days and think Nableezy should have acted similarly. I told you guys we needed to discuss implementation : ( Cptnono ( talk) 19:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
An interaction bad is completely unnecessary. I made the comment "stop going out of your way to cause trouble" and that is sufficient? I did not pile on the accusations here like some editors. I tried to be civil. I started the discussion that is what got us here in the first place. I just got nailed for being rude to editors and have been attempting to make it better. A topic ban won;t be helping that situation especially since I have not had anytime to prove myself. Have there been any comments since the recent AE that I have made in this topic area (I have actually stopped swearing across the project) besides the one mentioned that seemed out of line? The one mentioned isn't even that bad, IMO. He was starting a conflict and that shouldn't even be in dispute. So besides "going out of your way" (which seems a little mean) is there anything else? I even made it clear that Shuki made mistakes here. Should we have an interaction ban? Cptnono ( talk) 07:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I have expanded on this at PKs talk page but he does not appear to be swayed. I would appreciate it if my request was looked into before another admin closes this. I have not commented on what I feel is appropriate action for Shuki or Nableezy but me getting lumped into the interaction bans is a big deal to me. Cptnono ( talk) 09:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
@T. Canens, have you reviewed my comments in question and believe I crossed the line? I was practically begging Nableezy and the other editors involveded to use the centralized discussion. The single comment that might come across mean should not be sufficient. Add I think it is well balanced by perfectly reasonable comments even while others may be being less then polite: [73] one in question [74] [75] [76] [77] Cptnono ( talk) 18:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I consider myself involved in respect of settlement disputes because I participated in an RfC about them once. I think Shuki's actions here have been disruptive. LHvU's close of that discussion - especially after the clarification - was quite clear. Nableezy's insertion of material was consistent with the close. If any further clarification needed to be sought, that could have been done without reverting. But I'm concerned that editors disappointed with the consensus are trying to obfuscate it by claiming it is not clear. That can't be allowed to happen. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 20:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
It seems to me that LHvU's finding was clear and unequivocal: "I am of the opinion that the wording per Proposal 2; "The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this." has consensus, and secondly that there is consensus for it to be included in all relevant articles". LHvU further noted that "consensus is determined by weight of argument, based in policy and discussion, and not the number or the passion of support or opposition". It is clear that some editors dispute this finding; but they cannot claim that this was not the outcome of the discussion.
LHvU also noted that "It is my impression that there is a body of editors of the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted; it is a valid opinion to be held by an individual so inclined, but it is not conducive to building an encyclopedia. Attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary must be resisted like any other form of disruptive conduct". We are now seeing the truth of this comment; it is surely time for this recommendation to be acted on. RolandR ( talk) 20:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
I would like to appeal to any admins examining this case to review the evidence carefully, particulary the statements by uninvolved admin LessHeard vanU in the centralised discussion. We've reached a critical stage in the process and it's taken years of edit wars, blocks and lengthy discussions to reach this point. It's critical because what happens next in terms of implementation will probably decide whether we can resolve the issue once and for all and move on or whether we will face more slow burn edit wars, blocks, and fragmented, uncoordinated arguments in a large number of articles. It happens to be Shuki in this AE report. It could have been someone else being reported for either adding or removing the content so whatever is decided here there needs to be clarity so that editors know whether their actions are legitimate and consistent with the centralized discussion or not. Sean.hoyland - talk 22:13, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
For context and a sanity check, I have added a compiliation of sources discussing the legality issue to the IPCOLL page. Some sources are from the discussions that LessHeard vanU reviewed that resulted in the consensus he identified, some are already in use in various articles and some are new sources that I've found. The sources are intended as a resource for people (including admins here at AE) who want to compare LessHeard vanU's findings with the sources and assess the legitimacy of editor's statements and actions. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
This is a case of content dispute plain and simple and Nableezy is attempting to force the issue here, at AE, rather than dispute resolution. He does not have consensus for the contentious language he wishes to shove down our throats and he certainly does not have consensus for inserting this type of tendentious editing in the lede. Indeed, in both articles he cites to, he was the lone editor who was reverted by three different editors, indicating that 1) he is in the minority and 2) that this is still an issue that is the subject of discourse. There is simply nothing actionable here. Respectfully,-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 22:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comments by Jiujitsuguy are false, its not a content dispute, the issue was discussed, consensus is based on arguments, not votes. An uninvolved admin looked at it, and since those who want to have the worldview of the illegality of Israeli settlements kept out of Wikipedia articles did not bring any good arguments, and those who want to have the worldview of the illegality of Israeli settlements in Wikipedia articles brought good arguments, the consensus was to have the information, but Jiujitsuguy, shuki do not accept the consensus, so now they just say "no" and edit war against the consensus.-- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 23:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
I read a closure by LessHeard vanU and found it extremely confusing. The request is not actionable. The editors should continue trying reaching the consensus, but not on AE, on the articles talk pages.-- Mbz1 ( talk) 22:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Nableezy has been topic banned a total of 7.5 months and blocked on numerous occasions for continuous incivility, edit-warring and this "illegal" issue: Nableezy ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Personally, I support the presented edits performed by Shuki 100% and point out that Nableezy is violating both Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Principles of misuse of the project for advocacy and furtherance of outside conflicts as well as continuous effort on gaming the system. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 23:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)+clarify/punctuate+diff 23:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
p.s. there is a worrying modus operandi where Nableezy tag-teams his efforts to have fellow editors sanctioned when there is disagreement on content. The number of editors who quickly respond here goes to show exactly who wants to make a controversial political advocacy type of addition against consensus (e.g. Nableezy, Supreme Deliciousness, to be seen). Jaakobou Chalk Talk 23:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
So is the consensus confirmation valid or not? That seems to be the real question. I'm amazed the proposal has managed to survive despite the Atlas-crushing mountain of pettifoggery in the discussion, so nice work, those who labored on. Sol ( talk) 23:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
I suggest everyone read the close by LessHeard vanU Nableezy linked to above
[84]. I find it to be very well thought out, clearly worded, and I wish every admin would articulate their thoughts like this.
I don't see how anyone can claim that his close supports the wording Shuki removed from the article. Where exactly does he say "like all Israeli settlements X is illegal" is apropriate? On the contrary, he says he is of the opinion that "(subject) is a settlement of disputed legality..." etc. (or variations thereof)" is what should be included in the lede.
No More Mr Nice Guy (
talk) 12:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
In case that is too difficult to comprehend, "proposal 2" says The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this. LHvU clearly wrote that line has consensus to be in the lead of such articles. Asking for further clarification to something that even a child can understand is simply disruptive stalling. nableezy - 17:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles
I concur with Sean Hoyland's and RolandR's statements above. This dispute has dragged on for many months now, generating an endless number of cases, debates and discussions, and all because Shuki can't abide to have the highly notable information that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law in his precious Israeli settlement articles. After a recent discussion reached consensus that it was appropriate to include the information, Nableezy is now being reverted on the grounds that he didn't employ the precise wording recommended in that debate, even though the meaning of Nableezy's text is virtually identical. So what's next? Nableezy adopts the precise wording, only to have a new round of objections on the basis that he dared put it in the lede and not in the body of the article. Or that he put it in the lede of an article with only one section instead of an article with multiple sections. And so on.
I consider this to be a classic example of WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour on Shuki's part and I think it's time the community did something about it. The alternative is to have yet another interminable debate which will have to attempt to dot every "i" and "t" of precisely what wording is permitted to be used and where so that there are no possible loopholes left for Shuki to exploit. But we shouldn't need to do this. AE was created precisely in order to circumvent this kind of behaviour and I think Shuki has caused enough disruption already.
BTW, I recommend that adjudicators read Sean's compilation of sources to confirm just how well established and uncontroversial are the facts that Nableezy has long been prevented from adding to these articles. Gatoclass ( talk) 16:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Try to argue around that as much as you like, there very clearly was a judgment made that there is consensus for the inclusion of The international community considers Israeli settlements in [WB/EJ/GH] illegal under international law, though the Israeli government disputes this. in the lead of the articles. That you persist in misrepresenting the clear words quoted is only one more reason why you should be banned. nableezy - 17:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles
OT and unhelpful discussion |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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For what it's worth, I oppose interaction bans on principle as I think they are impractical. I don't see how Shuki and Nableezy could work on the same articles without communicating with one another, and while they are obviously frustrated with one another I haven't seen any evidence of gross incivility. Perhaps as a compromise a time-limited interaction ban, to allow tensions to decrease? Gatoclass ( talk) 06:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to let people know that Nableezy is taking it as a forgone conclusion that Shuki will be topic-banned for 6 months and is using that as a threat to get people to self-revert edits that he disagrees with. I don't have the experience with Wikipedia that many of you do, but I suspect that is inappropriate behavior for this site. Please take a look at my talk page. Accipio Mitis Frux ( talk) 20:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I would note that the only wording I found consensus for was that specifically provided under proposal 2. Any variation of that, by addition or subtraction, needs to find consensus, either generally or in the specific situation. This would include content immediately prior to or preceeding those words, where they effect the meaning of the agreed text.
I also found consensus for those words (but only those words) to be included in all relevant articles (that is, those articles relating to Israeli settlements in the occupied lands). I also further found agreement for the inclusion of the text in the lede of multi section articles, and for it in stub or very short articles where it was the only such mention. Only in some articles, those which had a brief introduction and then a body of one or two sections, was there disagreement on how it was to be incorporated - but not if. I devised a suggestion which allowed the inclusion of the consensus text, by placing it in the body, and satisfied WP:LEDE by using a more concise variant in the opening paragraph.
I trust this clarifies my thinking. I regret that my style of commentary gave the impression that consensus had not been achieved in the substantive issues; in my view it had. I stand by my comments that my view is not definitive - but only in so far that the wiki editing method allows consensus to change upon presentation of better or different interpretation of policy that deprecates that existing - and might usefully continue to be reviewed and discussed; this does not mean that it may be disregarded, however. If parties would like specific comments upon specific points, or interpretation of what I said and meant (not always easy, not even for me!) then please present them in list form. I shall place this page on my watchlist.
LessHeard vanU (
talk) 00:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
If the responding admins would look at this talk page thread, you'll see a series of personal attacks by Nableezy and Cptnono on each other and other editors. I notice that Brewcrewer was also involved in that discussion. A few months ago, when I warned another editor involved in the I/P articles, IronDuke, about personal attacks, Brewcrewer appeared to imply that I was involved in white supremecy forums off-wiki (at least, that's how I interpreted his remark). If I were a new editor, I would find the hostile discourse that these editors employ with each other in discussing this topic extremely off-putting and distasteful. Actually, I find it off-putting and distasteful even though I'm not a new editor. Cla68 ( talk) 06:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Cla, when you mention that you "warned" me for personal attacks, you left a few key details out. The most important of these, of course, is that you were (and apparently still are) meatpuppeting for banned editors User:Gnetwerker and User:Herschelkrustofsky. I had hoped you'd been admonished about this already, or perhaps you decided to ignore it. I think I've been pretty patient about your behavior; I haven't sought any kind of block or ban for what is unambiguously a gross violation of Wikipedia policy, but my patience won't last forever. I have the right to remove any and all comments you make about me or edits against me on behalf of banned editors, though I would rather not do so. I'd rather you acknowledged what you're doing is wrong, or at least promise to cease the disruption.
Oh, and in case that's not already wrong enough, the article in question, Leo Frank, is not in the IP area, and the editor you were championing, User: Machn is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer who made racist and antisemitic statements ("Mr. Ebonics" and "Jew pervert," to take two charming examples). I wouldn't go so far as to say that your going to bat for this editor makes you a white supremacist, rather, I'd say you were pursuing agendas unhelpful to Wikipedia, and should stop immediately. IronDuke 17:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
According to LHvU's clarification: "I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles."
There are claims that Nableezy's version (e.g., "Like all Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories, Ma'ale Adumim is considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.") differs from the wording LHvU refers to ("The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this."), but so far I am able to perceive zero substantive difference between the two.
In short, this is going into WP:IDHT territory. The consensus has been determined by an uninvolved administrator, yet the user claims that "nothing is settled" and that the closure is "confusing" when it is abundantly clear. I think that this request is actionable, and given the history, including four separate sanctions, I propose a six-month topic ban. T. Canens ( talk) 22:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
This, however, does not affect the proper disposition of the request at hand. The claim that "nothing [is] settled" is absurd in light of LHvU's closure of that discussion. T. Canens ( talk) 00:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The recent deterioration in behavior, however, really needs to be restrained, with seemingly draconian sanctions if necessary, before it becomes uncontrollable and requires yet another arbcom case, which I think no one here wants to see.
In the same spirit, I agree with the additional interaction ban PhilKnight proposed, and I add that if the interaction bans don't work out well, then pretty much the only choice open to us is lengthy topic bans from the whole area.
Finally, I draw people's attention to AGK's comment in this old AE thread, which I find to be particularly on point:
Interjecting criticism of the conduct of other editors into consensus-building discussions is a wholly unhelpful practice....Talk page discussions are exclusively for discussion of the content of an article and for building an editorial consensus on disputed content matters. Any editors who do not abide by this ethos in their contributions to article talk pages are, in the first case, damaging genuine attempts to build consensus, and in the second, liable to be blocked or sanctioned.
Okay, I think it's time to close this. Based on the discussion above, and under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions:
T. Canens ( talk) 21:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
AndresHerutJaim notified of the WP:ARBPIA restrictions. No other action taken. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning AndresHerutJaim
Discussion concerning AndresHerutJaimStatement by AndresHerutJaimMy intention was to remove unexplained and arbitrary changes on the Givati Brigade article. I never meant to offend anyone.-- AndresHerutJaim ( talk) 23:52, 21 November 2010 (UTC) It seems that, after all, I wasn't so wrong. The tendentious information was removed from the article.-- AndresHerutJaim ( talk) 03:51, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning AndresHerutJaimClearly this user is not that knowlegdable in the inner workings and slick moves that prevail in the I-A conflict, but I don't think we should act consistently with three threads above, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Sherif9282. We should take full advantage of this opportunity and atleast block him if not ban him. Then we should block his sockpuppet. All kinds of exciting stuff in the pipeline.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:10, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Question and comment - The article didn't have the 1RR notices at the time the reverting was happening. AndresHerutJaim, would you have made the 2nd revert if you had seen the notices ? The reason I ask is that you refer to reliably sourced information as "Ridiculous anti-Israel bias", "vandalism", "anti-Israel accusations" and "tendentious information". I would like to see you confirm that you would not have made the second revert if the notices had been in place. The information itself is about the IDF putting things right according to their rules so I really have no idea where the "anti-Israel" is coming from and it's being reported by the BBC, AFP, the Israeli press and probably many other sources so I'm not sure what all the wiki-edit-war fuss is about either but I guess it will be sorted out on the talk page now. I do think it would help though if you confirmed that you are willing to follow 1RR in cases like this in future. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Speedy close with no sanctions Sherif9282 was only warned, doing something different to the user in question will be more than unfair.-- Mbz1 ( talk) 04:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Speedy close with warning I agree with Mbz1 for the reasons stated. Sanctions need to be issued on a consistent basis. Issuing a sanction here when Sherif9282 was not sanctioned for precisely the same offense strikes me as patently unfair. In addition, he's got a clean record, has never been issued an ARBPIA warning and according to his home page, English is not his first language so he may not have been well-versed with the restriction. Moreover, unlike the case involving Sherif, the 1RR sanction notice was placed on the page only after the alleged violation. All these facts militate in the respondent's favor. A warning should be sufficient-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 19:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC) @PK: He can't self-revert since I already reverted back to it. Roland should have used the talk page instead of reverting per BRD. AHJ should not have made the second revert (although he was not aware of the possible sanctions) and he should not have marked it as removing vandalism. So I simply put it back to its state before the contentious edit. Roland has still not responded on the talk page even though AHJ opened a discussion on it. Per BRD, Aa42john should have been the one to open it. Of course BRD is only a suggestion and we should be happy one of the editors actually initiated use of the talk page. Cptnono ( talk) 20:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
ARBPIA specifically says the following: Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision. AndresHerutJaim has never been notified of ARBPIA according to WP:ARBPIA#Log of notifications. You could argue that if the article had the 1RR notice that was enough of a notification, but that isnt even the case here. I dont think it would be fair to issue an ARBPIA sanction for a 1RR violation the user did not know existed under the authority of a case that the user may not have know existed. The user should be notified of ARBPIA and everybody else can call it a day. nableezy - 01:03, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Phil. The edit which was tagged as vandalism upon removal is clearly a violation of WP:ARBPIA. It doesn't make much sense asking someone reinsert an WP:ARBPIA vio into article space. The logical move is to note the user what the problem was in their conduct and warning them to avoid repetition. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 01:26, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning AndresHerutJaim
If AndresHerutJaim self-reverts, then I don't think any further action would be necessary. PhilKnight ( talk) 20:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
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Cptnono blocked 3 hours for incivility |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Cptnono
I dont understand why an Arab Muslim (me) should be required to give a user who says that he is "anti-Arab" and that Islam is "problematic" any type of assumption of good faith. In fact I cant see how it is expected that I should show Cptnono anything other than overt hostility. An editor repeatedly makes negative comments about others ethnicity and religion and all people have to say is "boo"? I also wonder why the very same users who demand that I be blocked for calling an editor an "idiot" are here saying that the very user who made the complaint about me calling another editor an "idiot" that resulted in my being blocked should not have any sanctions imposed after calling another user a "prick". This is all very fascinating and enlightening. nableezy - 21:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning CptnonoStatement by CptnonoI completely violated the decorum section of the decision (4.1.2). I have been doing it a lot lately since I assumed it did not matter to anyone in the topic area anymore. I see it two ways, I would be happy to be more civil or I could receive the same treatment Nableezy receives for his incivility (a pass without any modification to the behavior). Both seem fair but I really should not get in the habit of calling other editors pricks and will refrain from such pointed attacks. And I made it clear that I see the Arab governments and the predominant religion over there as problematic. Nableezy is the one who ignored the clarification and assumed the worst. I have been neutral compared to many editors in the topic area so even if I was a racist I don't think my editing history shows blatant bias (although I do tend to favor the Israeli side in edits for the most part). Nableezy forgot to mention that I attempted to emulate his page with some material showing extreme bias that was offensive. [9] Eventually removed after some thought on it since it looked like a little too far. I know where the lines are and chose to ignore them. I don't mind being more cautious but it would be appreciated if the same rules applied to Nableezy. Cptnono ( talk) 17:05, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I just had a really interesting corresponding via email with another editor. I would like to thank the editors who are supporting me. Please keep in mind though that I am the one who made a mistake recently. I was acting like another editor since I thought I could get away with it. It was stupid and it is clear that I also did more than just ruffle feathers. So to those that were offended: I understand why and apologize. I don't want one but I'm not going to say I don't deserve some sanction. Cptnono ( talk) 00:26, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning CptnonoSpeedy Close with no sanction: He's recognized the mistake, expressed contrition with a promise not to repeat. Move on.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 17:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Comment: Cptnono may think that offensive comments "do not matter to anyone"; but he did not consult me before making his gratuitous and totally unwarranted attack. Had he done so, I would have told him that I do indeed mind being called a prick. Now he suggests that this is OK, because he believes that Nableezy has behaved similarly. As far as I am aware, Nableezy has never made any such crude attacks on anyone; if he had, that would be grounds for censure, not for emulation. As Nableezy points out, this comment was part (and not actually the most offensive) of a pattern of editing by Cptnono. He suggests above that this was in order to prove a point, he offers no apology, and he appears to make compliance with Wikipedia norms conditional upon the treatment of other editors. None of this is acceptable, and the issue should not be simply ignored. I think that Cptnono should be given a strong civility warning, with the stipulation that any further such edits will invoke appropriate, and increasing, sanctions. RolandR ( talk) 17:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment: Editors don't have to like each other, that's fine. We can all secretly despise each other and dream of putting spiders in our e-nemesis's pillow or call each other nasty names as long as things chug along more or less as usual. But when you come out as actively opposed to an ethnic group and a religion, you have just killed any possible assumption of neutrality or good faith when editing those articles and alienated any editor from those groups and beyond. Questioning the need for an article, not on its merits but because "How many separate articles do we need on the Palestinians being sad?" or to "Call it 'Palestinians getting screwed with giant dildos' as far as I am concerned.", is hilariously bad-faith. Sorry, Cpt, but I'm leaning towards the same result I'd expect if it were my ethnicity/religion: topic ban. Sol ( talk) 20:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment: I find it somewhat amusing that a user who regularly tells people to "fuck off" [13] [14] suddenly cares so much about decorum. As for all these arguments about alienating others, again, that would have a bit more weight if it come from someone who didn't have a Hizbollah user box or a poem saying "now I have a gun, take me to Palestine" on his user page. No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 20:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment: as the receiving end to a good number of provocations and no-comment reverts by Nableezy (e.g. "somebody with a 4 year old's understanding of English can see that" [16]). Nableey has an amazing statistic as the leader of wikipedia among people who opens enforcement requests against fellow editors, usually done after he tag-teams with another editor with a world-view similar to his who quickly comments on these complaints. Just recently, Nableezy complained that he was accused as a liar, demanding sanction -- soon afterwards he followed that up by "suggesting" others are liars. Obviously, I feel that Cptonio has been caught with a few violations of proper conduct, but when you place the context where he was being provoked by a tag-team, one of whom has a lengthy block and ban log which includes 4 months this year alone (Nableezy) -- I would suggest banning both parties for a short time-span for provoking each other and letting matters escalate like this without making an effort to resolve the issue properly. If the parties involved would make comments that they will make an effort to avoid each other, than a sanction should be avoided though. To further illustrate my point, I note how even on talk-pages he requires oversight (btw, a good decision PhilKnight). [17] Jaakobou Chalk Talk 21:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Sample discussion with Nableezy (pasted from
Talk:Gideon_Levy#focuses_on_the_Israeli_occupation):
Comment: Although incivility and behavioral issues were addressed at the recent ARBPIA pow-wow, admins chose to focus on other issues, and the AE filing spree has continued. Cptnono you were wrong in your behavior, as has Nableezy been in his past behavior. Cat and mouse never works for anyone involved. Unfortunately when these things are opened it becomes a mess of "he said, she said, they said" which does nothing but polarize individuals even more and create further distrust and disruption in the community. Nobody ever becomes permanently topic banned in these filings, which is perhaps a shortcoming of the process. That said, I implore CPT and Nableezy to refrain from using terminology that they even have the slightest inkling may be considered offensive. It takes a "bigger man" to step back and walk away in moments of heated discussion than to say something "off the cuff". Apologies mean nothing, if it is just a recurrent word not followed by action. -- nsaum75 ¡שיחת! 21:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Comment As I stated earier, Cptnono has recognized the lapse, expressed contrition with a promise not to repeat. So let's move on and not waste anymore time with this nonsense.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 21:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC) Stop using profanities I wish everyone would just never ever use bad words. Is it really too much to ask? Cptnono once used the most horrible language on my talk page and did not agree to remove it at first. Why do people have to swear? Why bring immature, crude playground talk onto wiki? Even reading these awful words on this page make e cringe. A little self control, please. Chesdovi ( talk) 22:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC) @PhilKnight: At the top of this page it says "Anyone requesting enforcement who comes with unclean hands runs the risk of their request being summarily denied or being sanctioned themselves". Would you say Nableezy came here with clean hands? No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 23:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Tijfo098: "I actually think we need more white supremacists editing here". Happy Thanksgiving! Tijfo098 ( talk) 04:05, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Comment by Lanternix Just a comment here. I quote user Nableezy when he/she says: I dont understand why an Arab Muslim (me) should be required to give a user who says that he is "anti-Arab" and that Islam is "problematic" any type of assumption of good faith. I am sorry, but since when exactly is it wrong to say that Islam is problematic??? Is it wrong wrong to say that, say, Nazism is problematic??? What if I, or other people for that matter, believe that Islam is a worse ideology than Nazism, that Islam calls for killing innocent non-Muslim civilians, and that Islam has been behind so many crimes throughout history for the past 1500 years??? Should we just shut up and be politically correct because the feeling of some people, like user Nableezy, are going to be hurt??? Until when will this favoritism for Islam exist? YES, Islam IS problematic AND criminal and there is NOTHING wrong with saying that! -- λⲁⲛτερⲛιξ [talk] 04:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
SUGGESTION How about we all just, like, grow up? This "wiki-lawyering" is seriously lame. If someone makes a completely unprovoked attack on someone, fine, they should be sanctioned. But if we're dealing with two editors (or two groups of editors) who clearly hate each other, either topic ban them both permanently, or let them have at it. Surely constantly nominating each other for breeches of civility is a complete waste of time. And for the record, surely anyone should be able to say they don't like Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Religion, Arabs, Jews, Israelis, or that they support Hamas, Hizbollah, Hitler, Irgun, and whatever or whoever else, without being threatened with topic-banning on those same subjects! Some sanity people please! Surely a lot of the best info on the Adolf Hitler article comes from his admirers, and surely a lot of the best info on Israel comes from her detractors. HarunAlRashid ( talk) 10:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment: This may be my first time weighing in in favor of an enforcement action. Cptnono, I went to you directly instead of even considering AE after the "sad Palestinains" comment, but I was just aghast over the "dildos" follow-up. I do appreciate your deleting the incivil remarks. However, the animus you illustrated in trivializing the experience of Palestinians by both remarks 2 and 3 suggests that you are simply hostile at this time to Wikipedia coverage of the oppression of Palestinians. As Sol said above, "you have just killed any possible assumption of neutrality or good faith when editing those articles." I can't find the retraction convincing right away, nor can I assume good faith. I think a temporary topic ban is appropriate.-- Carwil ( talk) 15:42, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Comment: What Cptnono has done is wrong (on a number of levels) and completely out of character. OTOH, topic ban for any significant lentgh of time seems to be inpappropriate for such a good contributer. Sorry, but I can see it is as a battleground action by Nableezy. I think these guys need to be instructed to work together to build encyclopedia. I know that dispite this, you guys CAN work together. Please try harder. I know, in particular, that cptnono can write from NPOV and I think Nableezy can too. Not easy but there is no other way. Sorry. BTW Nableezy asked to consider this in the context of his block for calling someone an idiot. Nableezy's block was for 3 hours, right? That could be more appropriate for cptnono than a topic ban. - BorisG ( talk) 17:04, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Comment I'll put down my popcorn and make an observation. Very, very few contributors here have actually focussed on the issue - that cptnono was clearly abusive, several times, but has made a - somewhat tardy - apology (before the AE would have been far better, but I absolutely commend his efforts to stop "supporters" going off on one). How about you all stop trying to compare this offence with every other offence ever committed by any of the editors in this area? It's like a bonsai version of the real IP conflict. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 17:23, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Cptnono
I'll wait to see if other admins post here, but my initial comment is that saying the editor shouldn't be sanctioned, because the person filing this report is alleged to be just as uncivil isn't a particularly good argument. PhilKnight ( talk) 22:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC) |
Ronda2001 blocked for 48 hours. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ronda2001
The IP editor is quite plainly Ronda2001, based on this edit where he takes part in a discusion Ronda2001 was notified of, and also makes the same claims about his own credentials as here. Both the account and IP were notified yet made the third revert, that is in addition to the edit notice warning of 1RR. I am unsure on the best way forward. The editor is obviously new, but is editing in such a grossly point-of-view way I do not know if reform is possible. There may have been some constructive improvements buried in the article somewhere, but it is difficult to know where to begin looking as I am not overly familiar with the subject. I do know enough to recognise obvious point-of-view though.. O Fenian ( talk) 00:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Ronda2001Statement by Ronda2001I am new to wiki - its true- but not new to the subject of the Lebanese war as it is the topic of my research at The university where i am an associate lecturer- please examine the article based on the FACT that this is well researched (the firts scetion before you get to the bit on militia's) and referenced with the most seminal peer-reviewed research on the topic of the pLO in Lebanon- and NOT based on hearsay and psuedo-intellectual sources found on the internet. Again I repeat that Yezid Sayigh "armed struggle and search for a state", Rex Brynen's "Sanctuary and Survival", Michael Johnsons "Class and Client in Beirut", Farid Khazens "the breakdown of the state in Lebanon" are the most eminent works in the field on the civil war in Lebanon and the PLO in Lebanon. I provide specific page numbers for people to look up the facts quoted. I respect the democratic attempt by wiki to arbitrate between different ideas and allow a platform for different views- but really when such poor research is involved- it should not be given the equivalent platform as sound established and peer-reviewed research- the outcome is not democratic when fringe ideas , ideological and rhetorical accounts of history are given free reign- AS IF THEY WERE EQUIVALENT TO THE LIKEs OF SAYIGH AND JOHNSON. previous versions of this site are referenced with extremely impoverished and Fringe sources- the list of extended readings contain some acceptable resources- yet the article contains nothing of the information in this extended list Comments by others about the request concerning Ronda2001Comment by VsevolodKrolikov This seems to be a clear case of someone who does not understand how wikipedia works, and in two very crucial areas.
Wikipedia's success is based upon a series of principles that have enabled volunteers with all kinds of expertise and none to work together mostly harmoniously to create good content. We need people with knowledge and expertise, but it's part of the package that their influence extends as far as what they offer, not who they are. Because this editor may actually have a lot to contribute to the encyclopedia, I would ask for a statement by the user that s/he has read and understood the appropriate policy pages on interactions with others and on NPOV editing, and understands that up to now s/he hasn't been following these principles. With that forthcoming, we might want to avoid a block. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 03:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Ronda2001
Given the editor has made 3 reverts on an article clearly tagged as having a 1RR restriction, there isn't an option of suggesting a self-revert. Under the circumstances, I'm considering a 24 hour block be applied to the logged in account and IP. PhilKnight ( talk) 00:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
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I'm looking for advice about how to handle a situation in the Israel-Palestine area, from admins who might be willing to keep a close eye on it. I've been working on this article slowly since May 2009 with a view to taking it to featured article status. It's about a crucial issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the expulsion of over 50,000 Palestinians from their homes in Lydda and Ramle in 1948. Although it's a crucial issue, it's not a hugely contentious one, because modern mainstream historians on both sides agree there were expulsions and also agree that there was a massacre just before the expulsions took place.
I recently started the final round of copy editing, prompted by User:Noisetier, who wants to translate it and nominate it for featured article status on the French Wikipedia. I was able to find an academic historian who is familiar with the topic, and who kindly agreed to review the article. He has written a 14-page review, with suggestions for how to improve neutrality and reliability. What I would like to do is fix the article up along the lines he suggested, then take it to peer review for uninvolved input, and then to FAC.
The article was stable, and had hardly been edited recently. But today several editors with strong views on both sides of the conflict have arrived, and one has already started to remove sourced material he doesn't like, [29] along with adding material sourced to bible.org to the lead. I'm only able to revert once a day, so there really is no way I can protect the article against this kind of editing.
I'm unsure how to approach this within the ArbCom restrictions, and would appreciate advice. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 13:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
To the people complaining about the article: This is not an appropriate venue for discussing whether we like a topic or not (tho note anyone who tries too hard to make an article controversial might end up back here;) and perhaps more importantly we most certainly do not get to decide what other editors spend their time on.-- Misarxist 08:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Ferahgo blocked for 3 days by MastCell. For instructions on how to appeal, please see WP:AEBLOCK. NW ( Talk) 23:35, 26 November 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
Ferahgo the Assassin has edited an article on the biography of a scientist connected with Race and intelligence (as mentioned explicitly in the article and one of the external links). She reverted an edit by WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk · contribs), about whom both she and Captain Occam have made multiple complaints. She reverted the addition of a reference in the further reading section connected with eugenics. The lede mentions eugenics in the first sentence.
Discussion concerning Ferahgo the AssassinStatement by Ferahgo the AssassinThis has got to be one of the most frivolous AE threads I've ever seen. I'm topic banned from "race and intelligence-related articles", and Henry Fairfield Osborn is a paleontologist. I have the articles for several dozen paleontology-related topics on my watchlist; anyone can see from my contributions that this is my editing area of choice. If someone makes an edit to an article about a paleontologist which is on my watchlist that I explicitly disagree with, of course I'm going to challenge it. The article I edited mentions race and intelligence in only a single sentence, and the rest of the article is about his paleontology work. WeijiBaikeBianji attempted to make the article more focused on race and intelligence by adding a "further reading" section which talks only about Osborn's eugenics work, and none of his paleontology work. I don't think it's okay that Weiji can add information like this that’s mostly irrelevant to any paleontology article that I watch, and then expect me to not edit it because thanks to what he added it’s now under the scope of my topic ban. I agree with Maunus that this looks like baiting, and I also think it's a problem how Mathsci and Weiji appear to be working together to support Weiji's edits, despite Mathsci being topic banned from editing race and intelligence articles. Mathsci just posted another AE thread a few days ago that relates to this topic area, and it hasn’t even been closed yet. I really think it would be helpful to everyone here, including yourself, Mathsci, if you stop watching my contributions and this topic area - which you are banned from editing in - so closely, and let everyone get back to contributing to the encyclopedia. Additionally, I think that any administrators examining this thread ought to consider whether this pugnacious, aggressive behavior of Mathsci's that's been going on lately is at all similar to the behavior for which he was sanctioned in the arbitration case. Comments by others about the request concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
Result concerning Ferahgo the Assassin
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Dnkrumah self-reverted, and has been notified of the WP:ARBPIA case. No other action taken. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dnkrumah
"Also Da'oud, be careful about the 1RR restriction on this article described at the top of the talk page. You've made one revert so that is your limit for 24 hours. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)"
Discussion concerning DnkrumahStatement by DnkrumahThe only people edit warring are the people trying to present a biased point of view in the article. This is the article before I showing the original content of the article and my edit: [38] I simply changed this: In March 2010 a trial began for two Israel Defense Forces Staff Sergeants suspected of forcing a 9 year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they though might contain explosives. The charges against the soldiers are inappropriate conduct and violation of IDF authority. [1] If convicted, they could face three years in prison. Into this: In March 2010 a trial began for two Israel Defense Forces Staff Sergeants suspected of using a 9 year-old Palestinian boy, Majd Rabah, as a human shield by forcing him at gunpoint to open a number of bags the IDF soldiers though might contain explosives. The charges against the soldiers are inappropriate conduct and violation of IDF authority. [2] On October 3, 2010 both soldiers were convicted of reckless endangerment and conduct unbecoming. During sentencing the soldiers were placed on 2 years probation with a suspended sentence of a minimum three-month jail term if they commit another crime. Both soldiers were demoted from Staff Sergeant to Sergeant. [3] After this was posted a Cptnano went and removed the entire section. He did this without using the talk section. This had the effect of seriously slanting the article and making it very misleading. Since the prior paragraph's sentence states: In response to the report, a dozen English-speaking reservists who served in Gaza delivered signed, on-camera counter-testimonies via the SoldiersSpeakOut group, about Hamas "use of Gazans as human shields and the measures the IDF took to protect Arab civilians".[305][306] I made a revert at that point. I posted my reasoning in the talk section. After this another editor posted this: Setting aside the comments about bias and vandalism, I don't think this material qualifies for inclusion unless it is made clear why it's important. Here are some sources that might help to show why these cases are notable within the context of OCL and beyond.
After Sean posted I edited the information to add his suggestions and the article was brought to this point: [39] Now editor, Jiujitsuguy came along and again removed this section, again without seeking discussion. Plus he added factual errors to the article by claiming "resulted in the death of a non-combatant". The reference clearly says two women were killed. [40] This being the bottom section of the article and reference before he changed it: In June 2010, Israeli Advocate-General Avichai Mandelblit summoned a recently discharged soldier for a special hearing. The soldier was suspected of opening fire on Palestinian civilians when 30 Palestinians, including women and children waving a white flag moved towards an IDF position. The incident took place January 4th, 2009 killing 35-year-old Majda Abu Hajiji and her 64-year-old mother Salama. Israeli Advocate-General Avichai Mandelblit decided after the hearing to indict the IDF soldier, a member of the Givati Brigade, on a charge of manslaughter. [4] This being that section after he changed: In June 2010, Israeli Advocate-General Avichai Mandelblit summoned a recently discharged soldier for a special hearing. The soldier was suspected of opening fire on Palestinian civilians when a group of 30 Palestinians that included women and children waving a white flag, approached an IDF position. The incident, which occurred on January 4th, 2009 resulted in the death of a non-combatant. Israeli Advocate-General Avichai Mandelblit decided after the hearing to indict the IDF soldier, a member of the Givati Brigade, on a charge of manslaughter despite contradictory testimony and the fact that IDF investigators could not confirm that the soldier was in fact responsible for the death. [5] Now, after looking at the talk they claimed they wanted it shorter and for First sergeant to say soldier. In view of that and the factual error present I performed a rewrite and came up with the present version. This doesn't fall under the revert rule because their edits are Vandalism. These are therefore necessary edits and as an editor they are my job and I actually did take into consideration reasonable claims by both editors in making the edit. I also took into account that having an article falsely claiming one person was killed when the reference attached to it says two people were killed would negatively impact Wikipedia's image. Purpose of Wikipedia 1) Wikipedia is a project to create a neutral encyclopedia. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited. That is the purpose of Wikipedia and yet we have two people, that spend a lot of time on each others talk pages BTW coordinating activity, removing the same information. There is no question the information is factual and from the above links you can see that this information in an outdated version was present in the article prior to my edits. NPOV requires that this data is present and that accuracy of facts by Wikipedia:Verifiability is maintained. I am not going to allow anyone to use unverified statements and mislead under Wikipedia's name. Again that is my job as an editor. The section it was repeatedly removed from is entitled Accusations of Misconduct by the IDF. It is ridiculous for anyone to remove from such a section information from the last week or so that shows two IDF soldiers being convicted and sentenced in an Israeli court for a war crime. Particularly since prior to my edit the article contained information on the same two soldiers being charged with these crimes. Every statement I made is backed by a reliable source. Especially, considering the previous sentences which these two left intact state that the only human shields are used by Hamas and basically that the human rights groups accusing them are lying. Finally, no rule requires me to allow the willful transmission of unverified information using Wikipedia. In fact, all the rules require me to edit such information. Da'oud Nkrumah ( talk) 05:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC) Additional Statement: Wikipedia:Vandalism "Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. Vandalism cannot and will not be tolerated. Common types of vandalism are the addition of obscenities or crude humor, page blanking, and the insertion of nonsense into articles." Specifically Blanking Illigitimate would apply to Jijitsuguys removal of the sourced sections. "Sometimes referenced information or important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary." Furthermore, Jijitsuguy added nonsense to the article. This is exactly what Jijitsuguy did and the same accounts for Cptnono. Identifying the removal of verifiable sourced information and references without a valid reason I acted to fix the article. "If you find that another user has vandalized Wikipedia you should revert these changes." Furthermore, their action can only be considered not Vandalism if I consider them good faith. Even giving them benefit of the doubt it isn't good faith to delete this information when it is on topic, when it is well sourced and it builds on information already contained in the section. That is what decided the matter for me that it is Vandalism as opposed to edit warring on their part, that the information was already in the article just not up to date. Why delete it? You want to talk about talk pages? These two had every opportunity to use the talk pages and instead they chose to delete and add false and misleading information. When Sean came to the talk page and posted his view. I took that view into account and added it to the edit. I also took the advice to use soldiers instead of a specific rank and to condense the section into account in the rewrite. So, I am certainly seeking consensus and following the rules of Wikipedia. I can tell them you are not going to delete verified and well sourced information just because you don't like that the IDF were convicted of a war crime. It will stay there if I have to go to ArbCom.Vandalizing an article by deleting well sourced referenced information because you are pushing POV is outside the range of 1RR and my correcting such Vandalism is my job. Da'oud Nkrumah ( talk) 07:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning DnkrumahClarification - ...regarding Mbz's statement 'yet he chosen edit warring versus discussing on the talk page'. Actually Dnkrumah is doing both, breaking 1RR and discussing it on the talk page Talk:Gaza_War#Incident. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Dnkrumah
If Dnkrumah self-reverts, then I don't think any further action would be necessary. PhilKnight ( talk) 07:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
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To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
As far as I knew, this article was not covered by my topic ban. I actually did not notice that this article discussed race and intelligence until after Mathsci pointed this out in the AE thread - if you look at the diff of my initial statement there, I said I thought the article did not mention intelligence at all. After Mathsci mentioned this I updated my comment, stating in my edit summary that I hadn't previously noticed the article's single sentence which referred to this. As is evident from my contribs, I regularly edit paleontology articles, and I noticed the edit which I reverted because most articles about well-known paleontologists are on my watchlist. I don't think that a single sentence discussing race and intelligence should necessarily make this a "race and intelligence related article" which I'm therefore not allowed to edit. And if it does, then this was an honest mistake on my part, because I didn't notice this sentence in the article until after Mathsci pointed it out.
If I had been warned prior to this block that the article was covered by my topic ban, I would not have made another attempt to edit it (I made a second edit to the article while the AE thread was open, but at that point no one other than Mathsci was expressing an opinion that my topic ban covered this article). Since I have had no prior blocks for any reason, and it was not completely clear that my topic ban covered this article, the lack of a warning seems unusual. I'm also concerned by the lack of discussion among admins prior to the block. The AE thread was open for less than three hours before I was blocked, and MastCell blocked me before any other uninvolved admins had commented there. Of the other editors commenting in that thread, no one else felt that a block was an appropriate result. I don't think it's appropriate that on my first offense, I should be blocked for 72 hours with no warning and no discussion among uninvolved admins.
I think that the appropriate response in this case is a warning, and I would like my block to be replaced with that. If I am unblocked and warned that the Henry Fairfield Osborn article is covered by my topic ban, I will not attempt to edit it again as long as I remain banned from race and intelligence articles.
Comment by VsevolodKrolikov It was disappointing for the dispute with user:WeijiBaikeBianji to be seen as a vendetta by two editors that aggravated the supposed offence. It's not a matter of two editors, as the certified RFC regarding that user shows; other editors find his editing odd and at times tendentious. WBB has been adding various links as "further reading" to a number of articles (not just this book) which don't appear to be that necessary (and I'm not sure he's read them, so I don't think it's editorial recommendations as covered in WP:FURTHER); it seems to be a way of suggesting sources to other editors to integrate into the text (rather than doing it himself or using the talkpage). I don't think Ferahgo reverting WBB specifically should be seen as aggravating the situation. Anyone might have reverted that addition as not useful (after all, it's not a book dedicated solely or mostly to the article topic, and indeed heavily implies POV regarding what the topic is most notable before). I also think the closing was really far too swift, and it should be noted that MathSci does seem to be getting involved in disputes in this topic far too much for someone banned from it. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 08:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Mathsci In her two submissions to WP:AE, Ferahgo the Assassin wrote first that she was "removing material related to race and intelligence from the article", [44] and then that she was "removing material that made the article too focused on race and intelligence". [45] The edit to which she which she refers [46] is the addition of one book, unrelated to race and intelligence as far as I am aware, with the edit summary "added further reading section and citation to book". Her unfortunate choice of words in both edits indicates unambiguously that in her perception she was removing content explicitly related to the subject of her topic ban. In addition to her own perceptions, the article explicitly mentions the topic of racial differences in intelligence.
The two diffs above also cast aspersions on other editors which Ferahgo the Assassin has continued to make since the imposition of the topic ban of her boyfriend Captain Occam in August. On this occasion her wording suggests that she was following the edits of another editor in what she perceived to be the subject of her topic ban: she has placed herself in a long-standing, acrimonious but wholly one-sided dispute with this editor. Ferahgo the Assassin should take responsibility for her own actions, whatever her personal conspiracy theories might happen to be.
My topic ban was by mutual consent, unlike those of others sanctioned by WP:ARBR&I. It covers editing articles on this topic or their talk pages, broadly construed, but not process pages. I have no interest in how articles in the area of the topic ban are edited. I have, however, been monitoring violations of topic bans (for example the multiple antisemitic sockpuppets of Mikemikev ( talk · contribs): Juden Raus, Suarneduj, RLShinyblingstone, Oo Yun, etc). I removed this edit by Mikemikev from this page. [47] Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, possibly aided now by third parties, have continually tried to push the limits of their topic bans. In this latest instance Ferahgo the Assassin has made namespace edits directly related to her topic ban. Mathsci ( talk) 09:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Jayen466: I would have agreed that the sanction was a poor decision if the book had been a clearly inappropriate, coatracky addition to the Further reading section of Osborn's biography. If the book had had two or three passing mentions of Osborn, then Ferahgo should have been quite entitled to remove it, her topic ban on race and intelligence notwithstanding. However, looking at the book in google books, it does discuss Osborn, incl. Osborn's support for Grant's views on the superiority of the "Nordic" race, in detail. Osborn's name occurs on 100 pages of the book. In my view, this makes it an appropriate addition to the Further reading section, making Ferahgo's removal not justifiable on the grounds of WP:Undue, and bringing it within the scope of the topic ban. As such, I believe MastCell's block was justified. One might argue that 72 hours was long for what appears to be a first-time offence of the topic ban, but I agree with MastCell that the topic ban was violated. -- JN 466 11:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Addendum: Ferahgo appears to be correct in stating that the block was not preceded by any warning, as required by Wikipedia:AC/DS#Warnings:
Accordingly, the correct thing to do would be to lift the block, and convert it into a warning. -- JN 466 12:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment from Professor marginalia I have no opinion about whether the block might be lifted and a warning issued instead. But Ferahgo the Assassin's revert of WeijiBaikeBianji's edit was her very first edit to the Henry Fairfield Osborn article. It is more likely that she is continuing to monitor WeijiBaikeBianji's edits than it is he was deliberately baiting her to violate her topic ban when adding the "further reference" to two dozen articles she's never even edited. Henry Fairfield Osborn was one of the two chief architects and promoters of the American Eugenics Society-the other was his nephew. Eugenics and the superiority of European genes, including intellectual genes, was a significant aspect of his life's work. It was largely due to his influence and esteem in the scientific community that eugenics and biological superiority was "legitimized" in the early 20th century as science. So I think more clear eyed research of topics and less "paranoia" and "palace intrigue" would go a long way in sorting out legitimate editorial differences of opinion in the articles. And there would be a whole lot less disruption if editors would apply simple common sense to comply with existing sanctions rather than constantly pettifogging over their fine print for legal loopholes. Professor marginalia ( talk) 20:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
-- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 22:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
This is just a note (and opportunity for others to review) about some enforcement of Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Carl_Hewitt, in particular Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Carl_Hewitt#Post-case_clarification. The syndrome is multiple IP editors repeatedly adding material that pushes a POV favoring Hewitt's research, with references to Google Knol articles or Arxiv.org articles written by Hewitt. Today, I semi-protected Church-Turing thesis for 1 month. Gödel's incompleteness theorems has been under pending-changes protection for a while. It's an admittedly esoteric area, so only editors who have the pages on watchlist are likely to notice. I don't mind doing these protections, but since I'm a frequent editor in that area I wanted to make a post here for transparency. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 22:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The close from the admin included the following:
Shuki is very clearly one of those editors who holds "the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted" and further he "attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary". This request is meant to see if this "disruptive conduct" will be allowed to continue unabated.It is my impression that there is a body of editors of the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted; it is a valid opinion to be held by an individual so inclined, but it is not conducive to building an encyclopedia. Attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary must be resisted like any other form of disruptive conduct.
I have no doubt that as with most AE threads I am involved in we will see a large number of those who support Shuki or simply dislike me making rambling comments that are of little relevance to the issue. I hope they will be given the consideration they deserve and be ignored.
I do not see how an editor can in good faith claim that there was no finding for consensus for placement in the lead or for specific wording when the plain English quoted here shows that there is for both. nableezy - 18:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles
Regarding the proposed interaction bans, I think they are unnecessary. Cla68 is right, I cant dispute that, but there is a cause and effect here. The more nonsense that I deal with, the more of an asshole I become. I admit I havent really thought about how new people would react to seeing some of the discussions that the regulars have, but that is partially due to the fact that most of the "new" names we see are just old faces with new names. But Cla68 is right, and I will make an honest effort to be more collegial. I dont know how an interaction ban would work, we all edit the same articles. Would it be a race to see who gets to an article first and any editor who arrives later would be violating the ban? The workings of such a ban are impractical, and I think the issue can be satisfactorily dealt with by blocks and bans for future issues with personal attacks or incivility. Though I do think that restricting editors from making comments in AE requests that do not concern them is a marvelous idea. nableezy - 21:05, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The principle of this AE is that Nableezy is making false accusations and misrepresenting my opinion that he assumes even though I have never claimed what he is accusing me. I certainly do not deny that there was an effort to build consensus and did take part, but I do question that there was in fact consensus and the admin did not in fact close that but opening it up for more discussion. There was also no consensus on placement and that was also supposed to be done by consensus at that central location. Nableezy is not just being bold here but unwilling to continue this consensus building for fear that it might unravel as others are exposed to it (if they can manage to follow it) instead ramming it through. He himself admits that he was reverted by three editors, who in fact, did not really take part in that confusing and hard to follow discussion. Nableezy also chose to make these changes on Shabbat when he knows that there will be virtually no opposition. This is a frivolous and false AE.
It is incredible nerve and anti-AGF that he ends this AE attack by preempting the opposition and discrediting of anyone who might come here in support of me (it will take time, Shabbat will only be over on the West Coast in several hours and we cannot assume everyone runs to their PCs to get updated on WP). He even demands that they be ignored, very considerate and showing his intentions to shut up others. -- Shuki ( talk) 18:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
That is, he found there to be consensus for including the line The international community considers Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this. to the lead of the articles. You are making a pedantic dispute that Shuki did not even raise as the basis for this massive amount of wikilawyering that you have been engaged in. Stop making such purposefully dishonest arguments. nableezy - 17:15, 28 November 2010 (UTC)I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles.
Why are ignoring that LHvU repeatedly said that there is consensus for "proposal 2" in the lead of the article? Can you really have missed the now 4 times this line has been quoted, or are you just playing dumb? Consensus is not determined by numbers, it is determined by strength of argument and consistency with the policies of this website. Or, again quoting this same adminI found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles
Your purposefully misleading statement not withstanding, this is a simple problem. A set of editors, yourself included, have long attempted to remove any mention of the illegality of these colonies. When an uninvolved admin says there is consensus to include this fact in the lead of the articles, editors from this set have ignored that and disruptively removed it. No amount of wikilawyering changes these indisputable facts. nableezy - 17:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[C]onsensus is determined by weight of argument, based in policy and discussion, and not the number or the passion of support or opposition.
The whole reason the centralized discussion was proposed was due to editors (including Nableezy) edit warring and then opening up separate discussions. Seeing the exact same thing happening is disheartening. Yes, the admin did say there was consensus. He did not close it out which I could see leading to some confusion. I do not understand how the admin could see consensus for placement and I am not the only one. Supreme Deliciousness has been just as adamant as Nableezy in getting this line in and he opened up a discussion on placement after the admin's conclusion. I think Supreme Deliciousness should be applauded (didn't expect to hear that did you?) for his restraint over the last couple of days and think Nableezy should have acted similarly. I told you guys we needed to discuss implementation : ( Cptnono ( talk) 19:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
An interaction bad is completely unnecessary. I made the comment "stop going out of your way to cause trouble" and that is sufficient? I did not pile on the accusations here like some editors. I tried to be civil. I started the discussion that is what got us here in the first place. I just got nailed for being rude to editors and have been attempting to make it better. A topic ban won;t be helping that situation especially since I have not had anytime to prove myself. Have there been any comments since the recent AE that I have made in this topic area (I have actually stopped swearing across the project) besides the one mentioned that seemed out of line? The one mentioned isn't even that bad, IMO. He was starting a conflict and that shouldn't even be in dispute. So besides "going out of your way" (which seems a little mean) is there anything else? I even made it clear that Shuki made mistakes here. Should we have an interaction ban? Cptnono ( talk) 07:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I have expanded on this at PKs talk page but he does not appear to be swayed. I would appreciate it if my request was looked into before another admin closes this. I have not commented on what I feel is appropriate action for Shuki or Nableezy but me getting lumped into the interaction bans is a big deal to me. Cptnono ( talk) 09:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
@T. Canens, have you reviewed my comments in question and believe I crossed the line? I was practically begging Nableezy and the other editors involveded to use the centralized discussion. The single comment that might come across mean should not be sufficient. Add I think it is well balanced by perfectly reasonable comments even while others may be being less then polite: [73] one in question [74] [75] [76] [77] Cptnono ( talk) 18:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I consider myself involved in respect of settlement disputes because I participated in an RfC about them once. I think Shuki's actions here have been disruptive. LHvU's close of that discussion - especially after the clarification - was quite clear. Nableezy's insertion of material was consistent with the close. If any further clarification needed to be sought, that could have been done without reverting. But I'm concerned that editors disappointed with the consensus are trying to obfuscate it by claiming it is not clear. That can't be allowed to happen. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 20:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
It seems to me that LHvU's finding was clear and unequivocal: "I am of the opinion that the wording per Proposal 2; "The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this." has consensus, and secondly that there is consensus for it to be included in all relevant articles". LHvU further noted that "consensus is determined by weight of argument, based in policy and discussion, and not the number or the passion of support or opposition". It is clear that some editors dispute this finding; but they cannot claim that this was not the outcome of the discussion.
LHvU also noted that "It is my impression that there is a body of editors of the opinion that the legality of these Israeli settlements should not be noted; it is a valid opinion to be held by an individual so inclined, but it is not conducive to building an encyclopedia. Attempts to stop, stymie or divert efforts to build the project in incorporating that commentary must be resisted like any other form of disruptive conduct". We are now seeing the truth of this comment; it is surely time for this recommendation to be acted on. RolandR ( talk) 20:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
I would like to appeal to any admins examining this case to review the evidence carefully, particulary the statements by uninvolved admin LessHeard vanU in the centralised discussion. We've reached a critical stage in the process and it's taken years of edit wars, blocks and lengthy discussions to reach this point. It's critical because what happens next in terms of implementation will probably decide whether we can resolve the issue once and for all and move on or whether we will face more slow burn edit wars, blocks, and fragmented, uncoordinated arguments in a large number of articles. It happens to be Shuki in this AE report. It could have been someone else being reported for either adding or removing the content so whatever is decided here there needs to be clarity so that editors know whether their actions are legitimate and consistent with the centralized discussion or not. Sean.hoyland - talk 22:13, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
For context and a sanity check, I have added a compiliation of sources discussing the legality issue to the IPCOLL page. Some sources are from the discussions that LessHeard vanU reviewed that resulted in the consensus he identified, some are already in use in various articles and some are new sources that I've found. The sources are intended as a resource for people (including admins here at AE) who want to compare LessHeard vanU's findings with the sources and assess the legitimacy of editor's statements and actions. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
This is a case of content dispute plain and simple and Nableezy is attempting to force the issue here, at AE, rather than dispute resolution. He does not have consensus for the contentious language he wishes to shove down our throats and he certainly does not have consensus for inserting this type of tendentious editing in the lede. Indeed, in both articles he cites to, he was the lone editor who was reverted by three different editors, indicating that 1) he is in the minority and 2) that this is still an issue that is the subject of discourse. There is simply nothing actionable here. Respectfully,-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 22:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Comments by Jiujitsuguy are false, its not a content dispute, the issue was discussed, consensus is based on arguments, not votes. An uninvolved admin looked at it, and since those who want to have the worldview of the illegality of Israeli settlements kept out of Wikipedia articles did not bring any good arguments, and those who want to have the worldview of the illegality of Israeli settlements in Wikipedia articles brought good arguments, the consensus was to have the information, but Jiujitsuguy, shuki do not accept the consensus, so now they just say "no" and edit war against the consensus.-- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 23:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
I read a closure by LessHeard vanU and found it extremely confusing. The request is not actionable. The editors should continue trying reaching the consensus, but not on AE, on the articles talk pages.-- Mbz1 ( talk) 22:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
Nableezy has been topic banned a total of 7.5 months and blocked on numerous occasions for continuous incivility, edit-warring and this "illegal" issue: Nableezy ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Personally, I support the presented edits performed by Shuki 100% and point out that Nableezy is violating both Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Principles of misuse of the project for advocacy and furtherance of outside conflicts as well as continuous effort on gaming the system. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 23:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)+clarify/punctuate+diff 23:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
p.s. there is a worrying modus operandi where Nableezy tag-teams his efforts to have fellow editors sanctioned when there is disagreement on content. The number of editors who quickly respond here goes to show exactly who wants to make a controversial political advocacy type of addition against consensus (e.g. Nableezy, Supreme Deliciousness, to be seen). Jaakobou Chalk Talk 23:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
So is the consensus confirmation valid or not? That seems to be the real question. I'm amazed the proposal has managed to survive despite the Atlas-crushing mountain of pettifoggery in the discussion, so nice work, those who labored on. Sol ( talk) 23:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
I suggest everyone read the close by LessHeard vanU Nableezy linked to above
[84]. I find it to be very well thought out, clearly worded, and I wish every admin would articulate their thoughts like this.
I don't see how anyone can claim that his close supports the wording Shuki removed from the article. Where exactly does he say "like all Israeli settlements X is illegal" is apropriate? On the contrary, he says he is of the opinion that "(subject) is a settlement of disputed legality..." etc. (or variations thereof)" is what should be included in the lede.
No More Mr Nice Guy (
talk) 12:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
In case that is too difficult to comprehend, "proposal 2" says The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this. LHvU clearly wrote that line has consensus to be in the lead of such articles. Asking for further clarification to something that even a child can understand is simply disruptive stalling. nableezy - 17:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles
I concur with Sean Hoyland's and RolandR's statements above. This dispute has dragged on for many months now, generating an endless number of cases, debates and discussions, and all because Shuki can't abide to have the highly notable information that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law in his precious Israeli settlement articles. After a recent discussion reached consensus that it was appropriate to include the information, Nableezy is now being reverted on the grounds that he didn't employ the precise wording recommended in that debate, even though the meaning of Nableezy's text is virtually identical. So what's next? Nableezy adopts the precise wording, only to have a new round of objections on the basis that he dared put it in the lede and not in the body of the article. Or that he put it in the lede of an article with only one section instead of an article with multiple sections. And so on.
I consider this to be a classic example of WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour on Shuki's part and I think it's time the community did something about it. The alternative is to have yet another interminable debate which will have to attempt to dot every "i" and "t" of precisely what wording is permitted to be used and where so that there are no possible loopholes left for Shuki to exploit. But we shouldn't need to do this. AE was created precisely in order to circumvent this kind of behaviour and I think Shuki has caused enough disruption already.
BTW, I recommend that adjudicators read Sean's compilation of sources to confirm just how well established and uncontroversial are the facts that Nableezy has long been prevented from adding to these articles. Gatoclass ( talk) 16:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Try to argue around that as much as you like, there very clearly was a judgment made that there is consensus for the inclusion of The international community considers Israeli settlements in [WB/EJ/GH] illegal under international law, though the Israeli government disputes this. in the lead of the articles. That you persist in misrepresenting the clear words quoted is only one more reason why you should be banned. nableezy - 17:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles
OT and unhelpful discussion |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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For what it's worth, I oppose interaction bans on principle as I think they are impractical. I don't see how Shuki and Nableezy could work on the same articles without communicating with one another, and while they are obviously frustrated with one another I haven't seen any evidence of gross incivility. Perhaps as a compromise a time-limited interaction ban, to allow tensions to decrease? Gatoclass ( talk) 06:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to let people know that Nableezy is taking it as a forgone conclusion that Shuki will be topic-banned for 6 months and is using that as a threat to get people to self-revert edits that he disagrees with. I don't have the experience with Wikipedia that many of you do, but I suspect that is inappropriate behavior for this site. Please take a look at my talk page. Accipio Mitis Frux ( talk) 20:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I would note that the only wording I found consensus for was that specifically provided under proposal 2. Any variation of that, by addition or subtraction, needs to find consensus, either generally or in the specific situation. This would include content immediately prior to or preceeding those words, where they effect the meaning of the agreed text.
I also found consensus for those words (but only those words) to be included in all relevant articles (that is, those articles relating to Israeli settlements in the occupied lands). I also further found agreement for the inclusion of the text in the lede of multi section articles, and for it in stub or very short articles where it was the only such mention. Only in some articles, those which had a brief introduction and then a body of one or two sections, was there disagreement on how it was to be incorporated - but not if. I devised a suggestion which allowed the inclusion of the consensus text, by placing it in the body, and satisfied WP:LEDE by using a more concise variant in the opening paragraph.
I trust this clarifies my thinking. I regret that my style of commentary gave the impression that consensus had not been achieved in the substantive issues; in my view it had. I stand by my comments that my view is not definitive - but only in so far that the wiki editing method allows consensus to change upon presentation of better or different interpretation of policy that deprecates that existing - and might usefully continue to be reviewed and discussed; this does not mean that it may be disregarded, however. If parties would like specific comments upon specific points, or interpretation of what I said and meant (not always easy, not even for me!) then please present them in list form. I shall place this page on my watchlist.
LessHeard vanU (
talk) 00:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
If the responding admins would look at this talk page thread, you'll see a series of personal attacks by Nableezy and Cptnono on each other and other editors. I notice that Brewcrewer was also involved in that discussion. A few months ago, when I warned another editor involved in the I/P articles, IronDuke, about personal attacks, Brewcrewer appeared to imply that I was involved in white supremecy forums off-wiki (at least, that's how I interpreted his remark). If I were a new editor, I would find the hostile discourse that these editors employ with each other in discussing this topic extremely off-putting and distasteful. Actually, I find it off-putting and distasteful even though I'm not a new editor. Cla68 ( talk) 06:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Cla, when you mention that you "warned" me for personal attacks, you left a few key details out. The most important of these, of course, is that you were (and apparently still are) meatpuppeting for banned editors User:Gnetwerker and User:Herschelkrustofsky. I had hoped you'd been admonished about this already, or perhaps you decided to ignore it. I think I've been pretty patient about your behavior; I haven't sought any kind of block or ban for what is unambiguously a gross violation of Wikipedia policy, but my patience won't last forever. I have the right to remove any and all comments you make about me or edits against me on behalf of banned editors, though I would rather not do so. I'd rather you acknowledged what you're doing is wrong, or at least promise to cease the disruption.
Oh, and in case that's not already wrong enough, the article in question, Leo Frank, is not in the IP area, and the editor you were championing, User: Machn is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer who made racist and antisemitic statements ("Mr. Ebonics" and "Jew pervert," to take two charming examples). I wouldn't go so far as to say that your going to bat for this editor makes you a white supremacist, rather, I'd say you were pursuing agendas unhelpful to Wikipedia, and should stop immediately. IronDuke 17:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
According to LHvU's clarification: "I found that there was consensus for the wording per proposal 2, and for it to be included in the opening paragraph(s) of multi section articles, where it may be expanded per WP:LEDE in the article body, and to be used without further expansion in stub or very short articles."
There are claims that Nableezy's version (e.g., "Like all Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories, Ma'ale Adumim is considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.") differs from the wording LHvU refers to ("The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this."), but so far I am able to perceive zero substantive difference between the two.
In short, this is going into WP:IDHT territory. The consensus has been determined by an uninvolved administrator, yet the user claims that "nothing is settled" and that the closure is "confusing" when it is abundantly clear. I think that this request is actionable, and given the history, including four separate sanctions, I propose a six-month topic ban. T. Canens ( talk) 22:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
This, however, does not affect the proper disposition of the request at hand. The claim that "nothing [is] settled" is absurd in light of LHvU's closure of that discussion. T. Canens ( talk) 00:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The recent deterioration in behavior, however, really needs to be restrained, with seemingly draconian sanctions if necessary, before it becomes uncontrollable and requires yet another arbcom case, which I think no one here wants to see.
In the same spirit, I agree with the additional interaction ban PhilKnight proposed, and I add that if the interaction bans don't work out well, then pretty much the only choice open to us is lengthy topic bans from the whole area.
Finally, I draw people's attention to AGK's comment in this old AE thread, which I find to be particularly on point:
Interjecting criticism of the conduct of other editors into consensus-building discussions is a wholly unhelpful practice....Talk page discussions are exclusively for discussion of the content of an article and for building an editorial consensus on disputed content matters. Any editors who do not abide by this ethos in their contributions to article talk pages are, in the first case, damaging genuine attempts to build consensus, and in the second, liable to be blocked or sanctioned.
Okay, I think it's time to close this. Based on the discussion above, and under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions:
T. Canens ( talk) 21:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)