I have recieved advice by administrator Fut.Perf. to give here demand for reverting his WP:ARBMAC decision with which he has put me under a revert parole of max. 1rv/48h for 3 months. Reason for his decision has been "my" POV editing and edit warring against nationalistic SPA account [1]. In my thinking he has commited mistake because I have not done for what he has accused me [2] but only protected version of article writen by established users against SPA account. My defense is that I have not writen any word in article [3] and in the end I have recieved penalty for being POV editor ?? All in all 3 editors has protected that article against SPA account.
Is is not honest that user which is protecting article (with other users) against nationalistic SPA account recive 3 months ban when this other editor has recieved 24 hours ban for sending me to hell [4] during time when he has been banned, using multiple accounts [5] to edit article and edit warring [6]
It is not honest that user is blocked because of POV edits when he has not made any edits but reverted SPA account which has made changes in controversial articles without even 1 time explaining reason changes on talk page.
For me decision of Fut.Perf. is POV without any question and because of that I am here so that this decision can be reverted.
Like it is possible to see from my edit history in last period I am more vandal police for Croatia related articles of anything other else. It is important to notice I am good in discovering nationalistic SPA accounts and banning them ( user:Stagalj, user:Standshown, user:Smerdyakoff) or blocking POV edits. I will this night revert changes made by puppets of this 2 banned users and .... -- Rjecina ( talk) 19:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Response A one revert per 48 hour period is an extremely generous sanction compared to the possibilities available under the Arbitration case, such as topic bans and editing blocks. It is even milder than the typical Arbitration remedy of a one revert per week limitation. Reversion is not endorsed as an editing technique no matter whether it happens 4 times in a day or once a week. I see no reason to question Fut. Perf.'s discretion or judgement. Thatcher 22:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Withdrawn as a sign of good faith and a step to resolving the conflict at hand Realtycoon ( talk) 21:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Under
WP:ARBMAC I banned
Grandy Grandy (
talk ·
contribs) from editing
Bosnian mujahideen for a month. The account
The Dragon of Bosnia (
talk ·
contribs) immediately took up the torch, and checkuser Confirmed that The Dragon of Bosnia and
Geographer X (
talk ·
contribs) are sockpuppets of Grandy Grandy. I have blocked all three accounts indefinitely. The question is whether to consider the block of Grandy Grandy as a ban or to reblock with a definite expiry and consider it a warning block/second chance.
Thatcher 01:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
reply
I think that the ban should be indefinite (or at least for a year) on any Balkans related articles. This is not a slight transgression but the deliberate actions of someone who has a very specific POV in this area and has been willing to push it using two accounts to make it appear that the user had more support than they actually had. This is not a case of using a sock puppet to occasionally support a particular POV in the odd straw poll, but using it to attempt to force through a particular POV on the page by by using accounts to avoid the 3RR [9]. During late January and early February while this editor was taking a Wiki-break and therefore not editing the Bosnian Genocide page those editors left were able to work out a compromise version which had proved impossible while this editor was involved during which time there had been RfCs and 3 attempts at mediation. However twice since the compromise was agreed, this editor had tried to revert the page to a version they liked although no other editor editing the page agrees. [10], [11] So it looks as if this editor will revert to a version (s)he prefers even after an absence of a month and even if the consensus among other editors of the page is for a different version. BTW it seems that The Dragon of Bosnia is th the olders account and the oterh two are sock puppets.
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 21:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Given Philip's finding that The Dragon is the oldest account, that might be the right one to let back if and when the time comes to do so. But if the editor expresses a different preference on one of their talk pages, let them choose their account. I did also spot some problematic false appearance of consensus editing by Geographer X, but with far fewer contributions that account is a sideshow. I think Rlevse's idea of a one month block while checking for new socks is a good idea, followed by an article editing ban for a similar period (with talk page discussion or formal mediation allowed). I'm wondering if the editing restriction on Osli73 should be adjusted; he obviously can't engage in formal mediation with this editor while this editor is blocked. GRBerry 03:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Help! - I requested a rfc that involves the discussion of image use :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Buscema
and User:J Greb quite simply up and deleted the images -
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk%3ASkyelarke&diff=199878289&oldid=199833125
I tried to explain that they were being used in a rfc,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:J_Greb#Image_deletions
to no avail - and this seems to have caused another User:Mecu to make an uninformed, uncivil intervention.
to do this in the middle of an rfc, which after all is meant to resolve the problem, is highly disruptive to the process. (Even though User:J Greb wasn't sanctioned in the arbitration case, he was named as someone involved - plus as he's administrator - I'm worried that he's taking innapropriate policy enforcement measures in an article that he's directly involved in. Help with this is situation is appreciated, as I don't see how people can comment on image usage if they can't see them.
-- Skyelarke ( talk) 19:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Cool - no hard feelings. -- Skyelarke ( talk) 19:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Here's my (Elonka's) uninvolved opinion on the matter:
I have comments on both Skyelarke's actions here, and J Greb's
J Greb ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Skyelarke ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
As an uninvolved admin, I have extended Skyelarke's restrictions by 30 days, to May 8, and if he violates the restrictions by further edit-warring with tags or images or disruptive behavior on any Buscema-related pages during that time, I am recommending that he be blocked, in order to prevent further disruption. -- El on ka 05:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Giovanni33 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has previously been blocked for breaking his parole. He has again broken his 1 revert a week parole on the State terrorism and the United States article.
Reverts:
I did do Giovanni the favour of not reporting him for a similar incident a while ago, and left him a message on his talk page encouraging him not to edit on the article without establishing complete consensus. But he hasn't taken this on board and seems to believe he can keep reverting anyway. He has been let off the hook more than once here, yet he seems to keep pushing the limits of his parole on a regular basis.
Giovanni will claim he was reverting a "malfunctioning" bot, but I believe it accurately picked up a case of vandalism. For reference, User:Ssb3342 is a blocked sockpuppet of User:Hkelkar.
Furthermore Giovanni did not explain either of his reversions on the article talk page.
John Smith's (
talk) 22:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
reply
PHG (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
page moves ·
block user ·
block log) is under recent ArbCom restrictions from
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance. Specifically:
He was already blocked on March 16, 2008 for violating restrictions. [18] Through the block, and the case, PHG continues to deny any wrongdoing. [19] [20] [21](See also User talk:PHG#Block)
Some of the history-related subpages in his userspace were deleted (over PHG's strong objections) [22] [23] yesterday via MfD: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PHG's archived articles. The community consensus at MfD was clear that the subpages needed to go.
Today, PHG has again violated multiple restrictions:
I am requesting that sanctions be enforced. His last block of 48 hours did not seem to get through to him that he needs to let this go, and go work on something else for awhile. As I mentioned three days ago in the current request for amendment, it is my opinion [41] that he needs to be permanently blocked until he is able to acknowledge that he understands what he did wrong, and until he indicates that he is interested in reforming his behavior. Since I know that perm-blocks seem to give people the screaming hives though, I would be willing to settle for a one-week block instead. Whatever is done, PHG's disruption must be stopped. He has already wasted the time of too many good editors. At some point we just need to be able to say, "Enough. He does not appear to be working in a cooperative fashion with other editors, and he just needs to be asked to leave, so that other editors can get back to work. Wikipedia is not the right place for him." -- El on ka 23:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I must agree that the level of action against this user amounts to harassment. However, having said that, PHG is incorrect about an important thing, and the error is a serious one, and it could explain much of what has transpired. He wrote on Wikipedia untrue statements have to go. No, they don't have to go. This, indeed, would be the argument of PHG's opponents. What we do on Wikipedia is to exclude, in the presence of controversy, unsourced text from articles. They can be made on Talk, and the remedy is not deletion of them, but of, if considered warranted, response and balance. Untrue statements are made in Talk all the time, and if I responded to all of them because they "have to go," I'd have no time to eat or sleep. In the other direction, if PHG makes an untrue statement in Talk, there is no necessity of response. He is not going to then put this in the article. I would suggest a minimal response to those who disagree with him. Attempting to repress him from a civil expression of his opinions and observations is, in fact, the soul of disruption, this kind of censorship then breeds incivility and outraged response, often dragging in otherwise uninvolved editors on one side or the other. Like me. It should stop. Respect the ArbComm decision, all of you. -- Abd ( talk) 14:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Help! - I requested a rfc that involves the discussion of image use :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Buscema
and User:J Greb quite simply up and deleted the images -
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk%3ASkyelarke&diff=199878289&oldid=199833125
I tried to explain that they were being used in a rfc,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:J_Greb#Image_deletions
to no avail - and this seems to have caused another User:Mecu to make an uninformed, uncivil intervention.
to do this in the middle of an rfc, which after all is meant to resolve the problem, is highly disruptive to the process. (Even though User:J Greb wasn't sanctioned in the arbitration case, he was named as someone involved - plus as he's administrator - I'm worried that he's taking innapropriate policy enforcement measures in an article that he's directly involved in. Help with this is situation is appreciated, as I don't see how people can comment on image usage if they can't see them.
-- Skyelarke ( talk) 19:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Cool - no hard feelings. -- Skyelarke ( talk) 19:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Here's my (Elonka's) uninvolved opinion on the matter:
I have comments on both Skyelarke's actions here, and J Greb's
J Greb ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Skyelarke ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
As an uninvolved admin, I have extended Skyelarke's restrictions by 30 days, to May 8, and if he violates the restrictions by further edit-warring with tags or images or disruptive behavior on any Buscema-related pages during that time, I am recommending that he be blocked, in order to prevent further disruption. -- El on ka 05:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Giovanni33 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has previously been blocked for breaking his parole. He has again broken his 1 revert a week parole on the State terrorism and the United States article.
Reverts:
I did do Giovanni the favour of not reporting him for a similar incident a while ago, and left him a message on his talk page encouraging him not to edit on the article without establishing complete consensus. But he hasn't taken this on board and seems to believe he can keep reverting anyway. He has been let off the hook more than once here, yet he seems to keep pushing the limits of his parole on a regular basis.
Giovanni will claim he was reverting a "malfunctioning" bot, but I believe it accurately picked up a case of vandalism. For reference, User:Ssb3342 is a blocked sockpuppet of User:Hkelkar.
Furthermore Giovanni did not explain either of his reversions on the article talk page.
John Smith's (
talk) 22:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
reply
PHG (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
page moves ·
block user ·
block log) is under recent ArbCom restrictions from
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance. Specifically:
He was already blocked on March 16, 2008 for violating restrictions. [51] Through the block, and the case, PHG continues to deny any wrongdoing. [52] [53] [54](See also User talk:PHG#Block)
Some of the history-related subpages in his userspace were deleted (over PHG's strong objections) [55] [56] yesterday via MfD: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PHG's archived articles. The community consensus at MfD was clear that the subpages needed to go.
Today, PHG has again violated multiple restrictions:
I am requesting that sanctions be enforced. His last block of 48 hours did not seem to get through to him that he needs to let this go, and go work on something else for awhile. As I mentioned three days ago in the current request for amendment, it is my opinion [74] that he needs to be permanently blocked until he is able to acknowledge that he understands what he did wrong, and until he indicates that he is interested in reforming his behavior. Since I know that perm-blocks seem to give people the screaming hives though, I would be willing to settle for a one-week block instead. Whatever is done, PHG's disruption must be stopped. He has already wasted the time of too many good editors. At some point we just need to be able to say, "Enough. He does not appear to be working in a cooperative fashion with other editors, and he just needs to be asked to leave, so that other editors can get back to work. Wikipedia is not the right place for him." -- El on ka 23:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I must agree that the level of action against this user amounts to harassment. However, having said that, PHG is incorrect about an important thing, and the error is a serious one, and it could explain much of what has transpired. He wrote on Wikipedia untrue statements have to go. No, they don't have to go. This, indeed, would be the argument of PHG's opponents. What we do on Wikipedia is to exclude, in the presence of controversy, unsourced text from articles. They can be made on Talk, and the remedy is not deletion of them, but of, if considered warranted, response and balance. Untrue statements are made in Talk all the time, and if I responded to all of them because they "have to go," I'd have no time to eat or sleep. In the other direction, if PHG makes an untrue statement in Talk, there is no necessity of response. He is not going to then put this in the article. I would suggest a minimal response to those who disagree with him. Attempting to repress him from a civil expression of his opinions and observations is, in fact, the soul of disruption, this kind of censorship then breeds incivility and outraged response, often dragging in otherwise uninvolved editors on one side or the other. Like me. It should stop. Respect the ArbComm decision, all of you. -- Abd ( talk) 14:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC) reply
On 19:26, 23 March 2008, Giano II made an in violation of this restriction, after a series of many similar previous violations [78] [79] [80] [81] [82] [83]. I therefore request that Giano II's account be blocked for a period of time consistent with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/IRC#Enforcement_by_block. John254 19:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply2.2) Giano II ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should Giano make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, Giano may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.
DreamGuy ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has previously been placed on ArbCom behavioral restriction for civility etc. as per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/DreamGuy 2
- "DreamGuy is subject to a behavioral editing restriction. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below."
He was blocked for gaming and anon-sockpuppeting (to avoid ArbCom restrictions) on January 11, 2008 (discussion here), and his restrictions then amended/extended on February 18 to prevent further such behavior.
Despite these precautions, DreamGuy has again been disruptive by edit-warring ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9).
Further examples of incivility:
Another example of a violation of his restrictions - and an excellent view into how he perceives his ArbCom restrictions and recent blocks - can be seen right at the top of his usertalk page, in bold letters, added February 27, 2008, where he says:
DreamGuy's recent behavior would be unacceptable from any Wikipedian, but is of special concern, since he is in clear violation of already-specified, clearly-noted restrictions designed to improve his behavior. To show that the Wikipedia community will no longer tolerate this kind of antagonistic and recalcitrant behavior, I am requesting that the sanctions be enforced. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Frankly, the fact that a group on known problem editors have learned that they can whine and complain, make false accusations, totally ignore policies and try to get me blocked instead of making a good faith effort to resolve complaints shows that the problem here is not one editor's behavior... Arcayne and Colin4C have systematically blind reverted all of my edits to the Jack the Ripper article every time I make any -- for them to try to use my frustration (while bending over backwards to remain polite to them) as proof of "uncivil behavior" while they are being extremely uncivil and not demonstrating good faith in the slightest is just nonsense. They know that they come complain here and they can drudge up an admin from years back who was cyberstalking me (and got banned for it at the time) and similar other people violating policy (Jack1956 has repreatedly also blind reverted my edits, including a delete tag on a copyright-violating image he uploaded with knowingly false license on it) and pretend I am a bad guy. It's just wikilawyering and gaming the system. Editors who make dgood faith efforts to improve the encyclopedia and follow policies don't have issues with me, it's just people who know they don't have to and then can run off and say their feeling were hurt when I edited out something they wanted. DreamGuy ( talk) 21:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Okay, I've had a chance to go through the article history page and the talk page and the short version is that it just strengthens my initial impression that this is a case of two or three editors trying to goad an editor they dislike into some intemperate comments so they can drag him before AE and get rid of him. Seems to me that Dreamguy is editing in good faith and certain editors are restoring junk and other material that clearly violates policy just to spite him. I really can't imagine, for example, why anyone with the most rudimentary grasp of policy would want to restore this Polly Wolly Doodle nonsense unless they were doing it to frustrate the user trying to remove it.
I note that on the talk page Dreamguy's attempts to reason have been ignored while his protagonists have assaulted him with a continuous barrage of taunts, patronizing comments and personal attacks. Perhaps Dreamguy may have been badly behaved in the past, I don't know, but I know who comes off worse in the exchanges on this talk page and it isn't Dreamguy. I think maybe it's time for some of these editors to get a grip on themselves, stop responding with such hostility and maybe give Dreamguy some credit for actually trying to improve the article. Gatoclass ( talk) 14:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I don't know how you figured my account is "a month old" since I've been editing for two years and have 10,000 edits and over 200 articles to my name, as my user page clearly shows. But that's a side issue.
No one has "assaulted him with a continuous barrage of personal attacks, etc.". However, if you feel there are some, I would welcome you to take a moment to perhaps cite some of that "barrage".
You must have been reading a different talk page to me, because this is your very first response to him on the talk page in question (my comments in square brackets).
Sorry, I just got here. I was out blind-reverting lotsa articles and misinterpreting Wiki policy to a bunch of reporters while running over a busload of nuns and cute little puppies. Gosh, destroying Wikipedia single-handedly is hard work. :P [Sarcasm]
I have no problem with DG editing in this article, so long as he somehow learns the value and rules of seeking consensus with his edits. [patronising] Deleting information with but a speculative edit summary does not constitute discussion. [Falsehood. DG's immediately preceding post detailed his concerns]. Deleting precisely the same information after it has been restored less than two weeks later is another example of seeming contempt for his editors (or admins, if his User Talk page is to be considered a true viewing of his unhappiness). In short, it is unreasonable to expect editors to tolerate edits from someone who has all the social graces of someone raised by wolves. [Blatant personal attack]. Therefore, discussion is key. It doesn't matter if he is the DaVinci of the subject, his weight of contribution is going to always be weighed against his ability to work well with others. Its a community; if he wants to be a luminary, he needs to seek another venue. [more sarcasm and patronizing comments].
The Jack-the-Ripper.org site is not a spam site. DG's seeming disallowance of this particular site seems less than genuine, [bad faith assumption] especially when one considers that he admins a JTR site, and we neither have no way to know if the site in question takes away visitors to his site nor do we know if he personally endorses hs own site. In fact, we do not know what site he admns for; that said, it would seem prudent for him to recuse himself on matters concerning external JTR links, unless he is willing and prepared to disclose what site he actually admins on. He doesn't have to do it here. As Kbthompson is in fact an admn, he needs only disclose it to him, and Kbt can evaluate the legitimacy of DG's contention with the contested site. [whole paragraph a suggestion of impropriety].
I note also that you completely failed to address any of the concerns raised by Dreamguy in the previous post. In effect this entire post of yours is nothing more than a tirade against Dreamguy and an attack on his character. The fact that Dreamguy resisted the temptation to respond to you in kind showed a remarkable degree of forbearance in my view, particularly since you continue in this tone for the entire length of the page.
So really, I think maybe it's time you stopped blaming Dreamguy for all the problems, stepped back and took an objective look at your own behaviour. Then perhaps you will be able to acknowledge at the very least that the unhelpful attitude is by no means all on the one side. Gatoclass ( talk) 16:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
(unindent)First of all, from noticing the situation in an MfD, I've been following PHG and noticing Elonka's behavior with respect to him. Without any comment on the history (perhaps PHG was truly a monster, or whatever), Elonka has indeed been taking it upon herself to closely monitor PHG's behavior and, it certainly appears, to attack him and it, exaggerating the ArbComm decision regarding PHG as if it were a weapon rather than an attempt to cool things down. Both parties have been what I would define as uncivil, but Wikipedia often has a looser definition than I. Absolutely, using a word like "wikistalking" is inflammatory; however, it is criticism of a user's alleged behavior and not a personal attack as such. From what I've seen over the last months, the number one problem on Wikipedia is incivility and AGF failure. It's infectious. There is a reason for the AGF policy; failure to follow it can create enormous disruption. When one user is incivil to another, we respect an ability of the target to restrain himself or herself, and we respect it precisely because we know it is difficult. AGF failure breeds more AGF failure as, then, others jump in to defend what they see as an unfairly attacked editor. And positions harden. At some point it has to stop. I'm not at all familiar with the DreamGuy situation, but I see incivility aplenty on just about all sides, above. I'm a parent with five grown children and two small ones, and it is common for sibilings to fight. When I come upon a "situation," it can be very easy to pin the blame on one of them, as being the one who, at the moment of discovery, was reacting (or attacking). But the roots of these spats go deep into past slights and offenses, and as a parent, I have to start with "Stop!" And I can be, even, severe, with those who will not stop. And then, "Now, what's happening?" And then I hear both of them, and in that process, they *are* allowed to complain about the behavior of the other, and, to the extent I can manage it, they are also required to listen to the other. "Can you understand how she felt when you said that? Yes, you are not actually a "poopy-head," but, after all, she is younger than you and hasn't yet learned how to direct say what she needs to say." I might say to one of them. When they can understand each other, they can also, sometimes, sympathize, and they can then begin to find out how they can cooperate, toward mutual goals, even when they don't always like each other.
From what I've seen, taking a situation to AN/I or AN/AE can be somewhat like tossing gas on a smoldering fire. It is not a stage in dispute resolution. It is, rather, more like calling the police. AN is the 911 of Wikipedia, and should properly be reserved for true, immediate emergencies. It encourages snap judgments, just like the police must make snap judgments. But we train police how to do that, how to avoid prejudice and personal involvement. In a situation I saw recently, a user was warned by an adminstrator to cease an activity. The user was rude in response, while, at the same time, clearly indicating that he would not continue. Very rude. The administrator blocked him. Was that proper? ArbComm has ruled, pretty clearly, not. An insult like that is incivility, not personal attack (unless explicitly so). (The incivility was placing an image of an upraised finger, which is a gesture that means "You cannot control me," it is almost never a precursor to violence in the real world *unless* the "target" responds violently. I.e., responds to incivility, one offense, with a personal attack, a more serious offense.) With the warning, the administrator was doing his job. Part of that job is to interrupt people from doing what they want to do. This is guaranteed to raise some anger, often. When people get angry, even when they are normally civil, they may be the opposite, they express their anger. But how they express it is crucial. For the administrator I mentioned to become angry at the rude image was understandable and no offense at all. But for him to block is quite equivalent to a police officer arresting a person because the person "gives him the finger." Do you know what happens to a police officer who does that, if there was no reasonable fear of a violation of law? (And it is not against the law, in the U.S., to be rude to a police officer in that manner, if not associated with violence or actual threat.) The officer would be reprimanded and could lose his job, if those facts could be shown.
The problem with AN/I and AN/AE is that admins tend to try to figure out who is "wrong" and stop that person; ostensibly this is the most efficient solution, but only short-term. In standard dispute resolution, however, a trained arbiter would ask them *all* to stop, not just the "bad guy." And then would either refer them to a proper venue for the dispute or other means of resolution. (A police officer would restrain and/or arrest any party who did not stop, not just the original offender.) ArbComm frequently places users on some sort of short leash with regard to incivility. When others are not on the same leash, it can create an imbalanced situation, where a user who has been uncivil in the past is essentially expected to rise above it all and be more restrained than average, and such users can be blocked for offenses that would hardly raise eyebrows when another commits them. I see loads of incivility above. From experience, folks, how likely is it that the parties other than DreamGuy and PHG will receive even a warning, much less a block, for it? This is why, in fact, these disputes often end in community bans. An impossible situation is created, requiring someone who is not a saint to act like more like one than most of us can manage. Addressing this problem is not easy, and it is not simple. But it would start with, at least, recognizing the problem. And, folks, including especially DreamGuy and PHG, my advice is to act like saints. In fact, we are required to assume good faith and only abandon it upon conclusive proof of other than that, and this is policy, not mere guideline. If we do so, we are, in fact, acting like saints, even if we feel like killing the )#$&Y)%, and maybe the world, including this corner of it, will start to function a little more smoothly. Or a lot more smoothly.-- Abd ( talk) 14:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
There are those among us who would love to see a restriction end in a ban. These are the true enemies of our community, and we need to be very, very careful about these people, or, more accurately, about these tendencies among us. Take a look at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day and then at the edits of those IP addresses. Then notice how few objected to those edits, popping up in community discussions. A segment of users were angry with a particular user, and, hey, we really think the guy is a jerk, and so what if this IP editor pops in expressing what we feel? "Hehe, I like that!" was one user comment, or similar. Those IP edits were, essentially, lies intended to defame and inflame, and when we find ourselves agreeing with such, it is really time to hold up a mirror, we are in serious danger. This is destroying this community, one user at a time. -- Abd ( talk) 14:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
- "If he makes 'any' edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below"
I'm closing this with no action. I largely agree with User:Gatoclass' evaluation of the matter--some users are attempting to provoke DreamGuy into bad behavior so that he can be removed from the scene. A particularly telling diff is [89], as is [90]. The ArbCom decision is not a magical license to poke DreamGuy with a stick until he's impolite, then try to get him blocked; that's gaming the system, and I have no sympathy for it.
As for the specific diffs listed in the original complaint, I don't find that they contravene our highly variable and inconsistently applied standards for civility. I would note, though, that civility is a policy that is supposed to apply to all editors, not just those with ArbCom decisions against them, and that if DreamGuy's edits listed above are uncivil, it would not be that difficult to go to Talk:Jack the Ripper and find edits by other editors that are equally so. If DreamGuy is to be blocked for his edits, I would have no trouble saying that some other editors in this situation ought to be as well. I strongly recommend that the editors involved in the dispute at Jack the Ripper find a way to work together, or seek mediation; trying to get DG blocked is not a constructive way of addressing the problems here.
In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll note that I've interacted with DG before at Tiamat, but I don't consider myself even remotely involved in this dispute. --Akhilleus ( talk) 20:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
This fully protected article is under probation per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Bluemarine. 7 inline citations that go to footnotes 1, 18, and 19 reference copyvio material hosted at YouTube, in violation of WP:BIO, WP:RS and Wikipedia:COPYRIGHT#Linking_to_copyrighted_works. Footnote 19 is no longer even functional because the copyvio material has been removed from YouTube. Requesting that these links and the potentially defamatory claims that reference them be removed from the article. Durova Charge! 23:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC) reply
BTW the AOL IP who trolled Benjiboi today cannot be Matt Sanchez. Matt Sanchez is not in the United States. Here's a link to a site that shows he was interviewed yesterday on French television. [106] He's in the center column. If you don't read French you can see his photograph. Durova Charge! 02:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Striking through my earlier support of Benjiboi's request. His participation at this board is tendentious and gives every indication of an intent to resume old contentions about WP:COPYRIGHT and other obvious policy issues. I do not understand why he continues to insist upon sourcing to copyvio YouTube videos instead of obtaining legitimate links or transcripts, but things need to move forward and his arguments are repetitive and have been amply rebutted.
Benjiboi has my sympathy for the trolling at his user talk today; those insults were abominable. Yet he reverses the burden of proof in continuing to attribute them to Matt Sanchez. As my link above demonstrates, Matt Sanchez is in France and unable to access AOL. Furthermore, I was lucky enough to catch him online tonight (it was the wee hours in France) and he was unaware that this noticeboard thread or the bans were taking place. If an uninvolved administrator wishes to review that chat log I will ask Matt for permission to forward it. The summary version is that he acted surprised and pleased to learn about these developments, but for the most part his attentions are elsewhere and he's moving on from the disputes at Wikipedia. As I stated to Benjiboi, I mentor Matt on Commons but do not proxy for him--I supported his siteban from Wikipedia, for instance. Benjiboi has offered no evidence to support his contention that the IP troll was a meatpuppet of Sanchez.
So this topic ban has had a fair chance at reconsideration. I have invited Benjiboi to post his concerns about the Matt Sanchez article at my user talk if he wishes, in addition to the other options already specified, and pledge to review anything he offers there neutrally. To reviewing administrators, please regard such posts as welcome and non-blockable, and if things move forward productively I will follow up at this noticeboard with a request that the page ban be lifted. Hopefully that will be soon. With respect toward all, Durova Charge! 04:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Persistent POV-pushing and deletion of references from Macedonia naming dispute. User has a personal disagreement with the author of a book published by a major US publishing house concerning the Greece-Macedonia dispute. After posting a vitriolic message about the author ( [107]) he deleted the article's reference to that book, using a highly misleading edit summary ( [108]). I have notified him of this arbitration and WP:CENSOR, but he has deleted this notification from his talk page ( [109]). He has since repeatedly added highly POV comments concerning the author to the article in an obvious attempt at poisoning the well/discrediting the source ( [110], [111]). The user's comments on my talk page ( [112]) do not lead me to believe that he is likely to respect either the arbitration's requirements or Wikipedia's general policy standards. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I mentioned Macedonia naming dispute to Xenovatis on his/her talk page at 12:45, 22 March 2008.
Luckily I saw the reference to this page that was on Xenovatis's talk page by ChrisO's before Xenovatis removed it, [115], so it was lucky that I am able to comment here and put the record strait. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 14:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
This user [127] seems to have broken this restriction [128] [129] , here [130]. Two reverts in one day. I've reported here [131]. The moderator suggest me to write here.
I just wrote to tell: 1) If I try to give a small contribute (right or wrong) in a respectful way, there is no reason to call me "frustrate" or "insignificant". 2) It's on you to judge if one user broke a restriction and if both users are members of a sort nationalistic wikipedian-club, as claimed by some people (just read around!!!). Regards. -- 217.202.86.126 ( talk) 20:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
ScienceApologist ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject to a civility parole per Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#ScienceApologist_restricted. On 14:28, 25 March 2008, ScienceApologist made an in violation of that restriction, after being blocked on many occasions for prior violations. I therefore request that ScienceApologist be blocked for an adequate period of time, consistent with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Enforcement_by_block. John254 23:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Copied for User talk:Thatcher
As I wrote above, I suspect that AhmadinV ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is a newly created sockpuppet of user:Grandy Grandy/ user:The Dragon of Bosnia see first edit to Bosnian mujahideen with the comment "again" and compare it with the last edit of user:The Dragon of Bosnia to the same page. user:The Dragon of Bosnia/ user:Grandy Grandy has been banned from editing see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#March 2008 - May 2008. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 13:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Regardless of whether or not this user is a sockpuppet, he engages in edit warring. --Blanchardb- Me• MyEars• MyMouth-timed 14:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I read Wikipedia a long time ago. I am not stupid, I look at your contribution, by the way I am programmer in PHP/C/C++. I was administrator in a PHPBB2 forum, I need some practice in communicating and writing in English. I am interested in Arabs articles, because of my origin. Ahmadin.
See also Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/AhmadinV. --Blanchardb- Me• MyEars• MyMouth-timed 15:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Giano II (
talk ·
contribs ·
logs ·
block log) is under a
civility ruling that reads:
and a second remedy:
and rather specifically a third remedy about exactly this topic:
Giano has been uncivil to FloNight before [138] on March 6, in exactly the same context, and on the same page, since the above decision. At that time it was hoped the old behavior would end. It evidently has not. I take that as an aggravating factor since it seems to signify that Giano felt able to be uncivil, be ignored, which in turn has encouraged the belief that this incivility (which is more direct) will also be ignored. Several users presented evidence to this effect during the case [139] [140] [141] [142].
Giano was also uncivil here [143] on March 18.
At 19:05 March 25, Giano II engaged FloNight on her talk page about the admin IRC channel. In the course of that, Giano II made the following two posts, which I judge uncivil yet again: this and this.
The enforcement provision for the case reads:
I have therefore blocked Giano II for 31 hours. The IRC case conclusion was overwhelmingly and repeatedly "be civil", and events since then show that Giano is back to his old habit of uncivil (and possibly in the eyes of some, snarky or bad faith) comments, and on more than one occasion.
FT2 ( Talk | email) 01:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC) reply
FT2 has the right to make his block but I doubt it is helpful. Giano has just left his grouching mode and started to write articles. Maybe we really should not distract him. Especially since he promised to greatly rewrite the Winter Palace article ( Saint Petersburg is my home city). Oh well, it seems like the subordination is taking precedence over the content creation nowadays. Alex Bakharev ( talk) 04:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Our blocking policy states that it is recommended to post controversial or potentially controversial blocks to the Administrator's Noticeboard. I believe it would be appropriate to post a notice with a link to this block review. Please note that this is not an apologia for Giano; he's responsible for his own behaviour. I am simply pointing out that I expected you, FT2, to have acted in the same way we would expect any other involved party to act, and to post your request for sanction here on the AE board for disinterested and uninvolved users to assess the situation and, if indicated, to have made the block. Risker ( talk) 04:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC) reply
May I make a suggestion? For whatever reason, Giano listen to some people more than others. If something like this happens again, can I suggest, in all seriousness, that someone ask one of those people to have a quiet word with Giano, warn him if needed, or pour oil on troubled waters and make communication easier? That way we might actually make some progress without the hugely lengthy thread above. I know, Giano could handle himself better in the first place, but seriously, look past how he says things and actually reply to him and engage with him, and the mountain will become a molehill. There is no need to take offence at every instance of perceived incivility. Carcharoth ( talk) 13:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC) reply
This was a cowardly block by an arbitrator with a conflict of interest. It was executed to disguise the fact that the Arbcom had performed a complete U turn on one of their own passed resolutions. It is further evidence of this flawed and failing Arbcom. Giano ( talk) 14:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC) reply
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I have recieved advice by administrator Fut.Perf. to give here demand for reverting his WP:ARBMAC decision with which he has put me under a revert parole of max. 1rv/48h for 3 months. Reason for his decision has been "my" POV editing and edit warring against nationalistic SPA account [1]. In my thinking he has commited mistake because I have not done for what he has accused me [2] but only protected version of article writen by established users against SPA account. My defense is that I have not writen any word in article [3] and in the end I have recieved penalty for being POV editor ?? All in all 3 editors has protected that article against SPA account.
Is is not honest that user which is protecting article (with other users) against nationalistic SPA account recive 3 months ban when this other editor has recieved 24 hours ban for sending me to hell [4] during time when he has been banned, using multiple accounts [5] to edit article and edit warring [6]
It is not honest that user is blocked because of POV edits when he has not made any edits but reverted SPA account which has made changes in controversial articles without even 1 time explaining reason changes on talk page.
For me decision of Fut.Perf. is POV without any question and because of that I am here so that this decision can be reverted.
Like it is possible to see from my edit history in last period I am more vandal police for Croatia related articles of anything other else. It is important to notice I am good in discovering nationalistic SPA accounts and banning them ( user:Stagalj, user:Standshown, user:Smerdyakoff) or blocking POV edits. I will this night revert changes made by puppets of this 2 banned users and .... -- Rjecina ( talk) 19:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Response A one revert per 48 hour period is an extremely generous sanction compared to the possibilities available under the Arbitration case, such as topic bans and editing blocks. It is even milder than the typical Arbitration remedy of a one revert per week limitation. Reversion is not endorsed as an editing technique no matter whether it happens 4 times in a day or once a week. I see no reason to question Fut. Perf.'s discretion or judgement. Thatcher 22:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Withdrawn as a sign of good faith and a step to resolving the conflict at hand Realtycoon ( talk) 21:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Under
WP:ARBMAC I banned
Grandy Grandy (
talk ·
contribs) from editing
Bosnian mujahideen for a month. The account
The Dragon of Bosnia (
talk ·
contribs) immediately took up the torch, and checkuser Confirmed that The Dragon of Bosnia and
Geographer X (
talk ·
contribs) are sockpuppets of Grandy Grandy. I have blocked all three accounts indefinitely. The question is whether to consider the block of Grandy Grandy as a ban or to reblock with a definite expiry and consider it a warning block/second chance.
Thatcher 01:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
reply
I think that the ban should be indefinite (or at least for a year) on any Balkans related articles. This is not a slight transgression but the deliberate actions of someone who has a very specific POV in this area and has been willing to push it using two accounts to make it appear that the user had more support than they actually had. This is not a case of using a sock puppet to occasionally support a particular POV in the odd straw poll, but using it to attempt to force through a particular POV on the page by by using accounts to avoid the 3RR [9]. During late January and early February while this editor was taking a Wiki-break and therefore not editing the Bosnian Genocide page those editors left were able to work out a compromise version which had proved impossible while this editor was involved during which time there had been RfCs and 3 attempts at mediation. However twice since the compromise was agreed, this editor had tried to revert the page to a version they liked although no other editor editing the page agrees. [10], [11] So it looks as if this editor will revert to a version (s)he prefers even after an absence of a month and even if the consensus among other editors of the page is for a different version. BTW it seems that The Dragon of Bosnia is th the olders account and the oterh two are sock puppets.
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 21:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Given Philip's finding that The Dragon is the oldest account, that might be the right one to let back if and when the time comes to do so. But if the editor expresses a different preference on one of their talk pages, let them choose their account. I did also spot some problematic false appearance of consensus editing by Geographer X, but with far fewer contributions that account is a sideshow. I think Rlevse's idea of a one month block while checking for new socks is a good idea, followed by an article editing ban for a similar period (with talk page discussion or formal mediation allowed). I'm wondering if the editing restriction on Osli73 should be adjusted; he obviously can't engage in formal mediation with this editor while this editor is blocked. GRBerry 03:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Help! - I requested a rfc that involves the discussion of image use :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Buscema
and User:J Greb quite simply up and deleted the images -
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk%3ASkyelarke&diff=199878289&oldid=199833125
I tried to explain that they were being used in a rfc,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:J_Greb#Image_deletions
to no avail - and this seems to have caused another User:Mecu to make an uninformed, uncivil intervention.
to do this in the middle of an rfc, which after all is meant to resolve the problem, is highly disruptive to the process. (Even though User:J Greb wasn't sanctioned in the arbitration case, he was named as someone involved - plus as he's administrator - I'm worried that he's taking innapropriate policy enforcement measures in an article that he's directly involved in. Help with this is situation is appreciated, as I don't see how people can comment on image usage if they can't see them.
-- Skyelarke ( talk) 19:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Cool - no hard feelings. -- Skyelarke ( talk) 19:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Here's my (Elonka's) uninvolved opinion on the matter:
I have comments on both Skyelarke's actions here, and J Greb's
J Greb ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Skyelarke ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
As an uninvolved admin, I have extended Skyelarke's restrictions by 30 days, to May 8, and if he violates the restrictions by further edit-warring with tags or images or disruptive behavior on any Buscema-related pages during that time, I am recommending that he be blocked, in order to prevent further disruption. -- El on ka 05:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Giovanni33 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has previously been blocked for breaking his parole. He has again broken his 1 revert a week parole on the State terrorism and the United States article.
Reverts:
I did do Giovanni the favour of not reporting him for a similar incident a while ago, and left him a message on his talk page encouraging him not to edit on the article without establishing complete consensus. But he hasn't taken this on board and seems to believe he can keep reverting anyway. He has been let off the hook more than once here, yet he seems to keep pushing the limits of his parole on a regular basis.
Giovanni will claim he was reverting a "malfunctioning" bot, but I believe it accurately picked up a case of vandalism. For reference, User:Ssb3342 is a blocked sockpuppet of User:Hkelkar.
Furthermore Giovanni did not explain either of his reversions on the article talk page.
John Smith's (
talk) 22:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
reply
PHG (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
page moves ·
block user ·
block log) is under recent ArbCom restrictions from
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance. Specifically:
He was already blocked on March 16, 2008 for violating restrictions. [18] Through the block, and the case, PHG continues to deny any wrongdoing. [19] [20] [21](See also User talk:PHG#Block)
Some of the history-related subpages in his userspace were deleted (over PHG's strong objections) [22] [23] yesterday via MfD: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PHG's archived articles. The community consensus at MfD was clear that the subpages needed to go.
Today, PHG has again violated multiple restrictions:
I am requesting that sanctions be enforced. His last block of 48 hours did not seem to get through to him that he needs to let this go, and go work on something else for awhile. As I mentioned three days ago in the current request for amendment, it is my opinion [41] that he needs to be permanently blocked until he is able to acknowledge that he understands what he did wrong, and until he indicates that he is interested in reforming his behavior. Since I know that perm-blocks seem to give people the screaming hives though, I would be willing to settle for a one-week block instead. Whatever is done, PHG's disruption must be stopped. He has already wasted the time of too many good editors. At some point we just need to be able to say, "Enough. He does not appear to be working in a cooperative fashion with other editors, and he just needs to be asked to leave, so that other editors can get back to work. Wikipedia is not the right place for him." -- El on ka 23:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I must agree that the level of action against this user amounts to harassment. However, having said that, PHG is incorrect about an important thing, and the error is a serious one, and it could explain much of what has transpired. He wrote on Wikipedia untrue statements have to go. No, they don't have to go. This, indeed, would be the argument of PHG's opponents. What we do on Wikipedia is to exclude, in the presence of controversy, unsourced text from articles. They can be made on Talk, and the remedy is not deletion of them, but of, if considered warranted, response and balance. Untrue statements are made in Talk all the time, and if I responded to all of them because they "have to go," I'd have no time to eat or sleep. In the other direction, if PHG makes an untrue statement in Talk, there is no necessity of response. He is not going to then put this in the article. I would suggest a minimal response to those who disagree with him. Attempting to repress him from a civil expression of his opinions and observations is, in fact, the soul of disruption, this kind of censorship then breeds incivility and outraged response, often dragging in otherwise uninvolved editors on one side or the other. Like me. It should stop. Respect the ArbComm decision, all of you. -- Abd ( talk) 14:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Help! - I requested a rfc that involves the discussion of image use :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Buscema
and User:J Greb quite simply up and deleted the images -
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk%3ASkyelarke&diff=199878289&oldid=199833125
I tried to explain that they were being used in a rfc,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:J_Greb#Image_deletions
to no avail - and this seems to have caused another User:Mecu to make an uninformed, uncivil intervention.
to do this in the middle of an rfc, which after all is meant to resolve the problem, is highly disruptive to the process. (Even though User:J Greb wasn't sanctioned in the arbitration case, he was named as someone involved - plus as he's administrator - I'm worried that he's taking innapropriate policy enforcement measures in an article that he's directly involved in. Help with this is situation is appreciated, as I don't see how people can comment on image usage if they can't see them.
-- Skyelarke ( talk) 19:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Cool - no hard feelings. -- Skyelarke ( talk) 19:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Here's my (Elonka's) uninvolved opinion on the matter:
I have comments on both Skyelarke's actions here, and J Greb's
J Greb ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Skyelarke ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
As an uninvolved admin, I have extended Skyelarke's restrictions by 30 days, to May 8, and if he violates the restrictions by further edit-warring with tags or images or disruptive behavior on any Buscema-related pages during that time, I am recommending that he be blocked, in order to prevent further disruption. -- El on ka 05:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Giovanni33 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has previously been blocked for breaking his parole. He has again broken his 1 revert a week parole on the State terrorism and the United States article.
Reverts:
I did do Giovanni the favour of not reporting him for a similar incident a while ago, and left him a message on his talk page encouraging him not to edit on the article without establishing complete consensus. But he hasn't taken this on board and seems to believe he can keep reverting anyway. He has been let off the hook more than once here, yet he seems to keep pushing the limits of his parole on a regular basis.
Giovanni will claim he was reverting a "malfunctioning" bot, but I believe it accurately picked up a case of vandalism. For reference, User:Ssb3342 is a blocked sockpuppet of User:Hkelkar.
Furthermore Giovanni did not explain either of his reversions on the article talk page.
John Smith's (
talk) 22:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
reply
PHG (
talk ·
contribs ·
deleted contribs ·
page moves ·
block user ·
block log) is under recent ArbCom restrictions from
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance. Specifically:
He was already blocked on March 16, 2008 for violating restrictions. [51] Through the block, and the case, PHG continues to deny any wrongdoing. [52] [53] [54](See also User talk:PHG#Block)
Some of the history-related subpages in his userspace were deleted (over PHG's strong objections) [55] [56] yesterday via MfD: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PHG's archived articles. The community consensus at MfD was clear that the subpages needed to go.
Today, PHG has again violated multiple restrictions:
I am requesting that sanctions be enforced. His last block of 48 hours did not seem to get through to him that he needs to let this go, and go work on something else for awhile. As I mentioned three days ago in the current request for amendment, it is my opinion [74] that he needs to be permanently blocked until he is able to acknowledge that he understands what he did wrong, and until he indicates that he is interested in reforming his behavior. Since I know that perm-blocks seem to give people the screaming hives though, I would be willing to settle for a one-week block instead. Whatever is done, PHG's disruption must be stopped. He has already wasted the time of too many good editors. At some point we just need to be able to say, "Enough. He does not appear to be working in a cooperative fashion with other editors, and he just needs to be asked to leave, so that other editors can get back to work. Wikipedia is not the right place for him." -- El on ka 23:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I must agree that the level of action against this user amounts to harassment. However, having said that, PHG is incorrect about an important thing, and the error is a serious one, and it could explain much of what has transpired. He wrote on Wikipedia untrue statements have to go. No, they don't have to go. This, indeed, would be the argument of PHG's opponents. What we do on Wikipedia is to exclude, in the presence of controversy, unsourced text from articles. They can be made on Talk, and the remedy is not deletion of them, but of, if considered warranted, response and balance. Untrue statements are made in Talk all the time, and if I responded to all of them because they "have to go," I'd have no time to eat or sleep. In the other direction, if PHG makes an untrue statement in Talk, there is no necessity of response. He is not going to then put this in the article. I would suggest a minimal response to those who disagree with him. Attempting to repress him from a civil expression of his opinions and observations is, in fact, the soul of disruption, this kind of censorship then breeds incivility and outraged response, often dragging in otherwise uninvolved editors on one side or the other. Like me. It should stop. Respect the ArbComm decision, all of you. -- Abd ( talk) 14:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC) reply
On 19:26, 23 March 2008, Giano II made an in violation of this restriction, after a series of many similar previous violations [78] [79] [80] [81] [82] [83]. I therefore request that Giano II's account be blocked for a period of time consistent with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/IRC#Enforcement_by_block. John254 19:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply2.2) Giano II ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should Giano make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, Giano may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below.
DreamGuy ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has previously been placed on ArbCom behavioral restriction for civility etc. as per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/DreamGuy 2
- "DreamGuy is subject to a behavioral editing restriction. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below."
He was blocked for gaming and anon-sockpuppeting (to avoid ArbCom restrictions) on January 11, 2008 (discussion here), and his restrictions then amended/extended on February 18 to prevent further such behavior.
Despite these precautions, DreamGuy has again been disruptive by edit-warring ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9).
Further examples of incivility:
Another example of a violation of his restrictions - and an excellent view into how he perceives his ArbCom restrictions and recent blocks - can be seen right at the top of his usertalk page, in bold letters, added February 27, 2008, where he says:
DreamGuy's recent behavior would be unacceptable from any Wikipedian, but is of special concern, since he is in clear violation of already-specified, clearly-noted restrictions designed to improve his behavior. To show that the Wikipedia community will no longer tolerate this kind of antagonistic and recalcitrant behavior, I am requesting that the sanctions be enforced. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Frankly, the fact that a group on known problem editors have learned that they can whine and complain, make false accusations, totally ignore policies and try to get me blocked instead of making a good faith effort to resolve complaints shows that the problem here is not one editor's behavior... Arcayne and Colin4C have systematically blind reverted all of my edits to the Jack the Ripper article every time I make any -- for them to try to use my frustration (while bending over backwards to remain polite to them) as proof of "uncivil behavior" while they are being extremely uncivil and not demonstrating good faith in the slightest is just nonsense. They know that they come complain here and they can drudge up an admin from years back who was cyberstalking me (and got banned for it at the time) and similar other people violating policy (Jack1956 has repreatedly also blind reverted my edits, including a delete tag on a copyright-violating image he uploaded with knowingly false license on it) and pretend I am a bad guy. It's just wikilawyering and gaming the system. Editors who make dgood faith efforts to improve the encyclopedia and follow policies don't have issues with me, it's just people who know they don't have to and then can run off and say their feeling were hurt when I edited out something they wanted. DreamGuy ( talk) 21:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Okay, I've had a chance to go through the article history page and the talk page and the short version is that it just strengthens my initial impression that this is a case of two or three editors trying to goad an editor they dislike into some intemperate comments so they can drag him before AE and get rid of him. Seems to me that Dreamguy is editing in good faith and certain editors are restoring junk and other material that clearly violates policy just to spite him. I really can't imagine, for example, why anyone with the most rudimentary grasp of policy would want to restore this Polly Wolly Doodle nonsense unless they were doing it to frustrate the user trying to remove it.
I note that on the talk page Dreamguy's attempts to reason have been ignored while his protagonists have assaulted him with a continuous barrage of taunts, patronizing comments and personal attacks. Perhaps Dreamguy may have been badly behaved in the past, I don't know, but I know who comes off worse in the exchanges on this talk page and it isn't Dreamguy. I think maybe it's time for some of these editors to get a grip on themselves, stop responding with such hostility and maybe give Dreamguy some credit for actually trying to improve the article. Gatoclass ( talk) 14:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I don't know how you figured my account is "a month old" since I've been editing for two years and have 10,000 edits and over 200 articles to my name, as my user page clearly shows. But that's a side issue.
No one has "assaulted him with a continuous barrage of personal attacks, etc.". However, if you feel there are some, I would welcome you to take a moment to perhaps cite some of that "barrage".
You must have been reading a different talk page to me, because this is your very first response to him on the talk page in question (my comments in square brackets).
Sorry, I just got here. I was out blind-reverting lotsa articles and misinterpreting Wiki policy to a bunch of reporters while running over a busload of nuns and cute little puppies. Gosh, destroying Wikipedia single-handedly is hard work. :P [Sarcasm]
I have no problem with DG editing in this article, so long as he somehow learns the value and rules of seeking consensus with his edits. [patronising] Deleting information with but a speculative edit summary does not constitute discussion. [Falsehood. DG's immediately preceding post detailed his concerns]. Deleting precisely the same information after it has been restored less than two weeks later is another example of seeming contempt for his editors (or admins, if his User Talk page is to be considered a true viewing of his unhappiness). In short, it is unreasonable to expect editors to tolerate edits from someone who has all the social graces of someone raised by wolves. [Blatant personal attack]. Therefore, discussion is key. It doesn't matter if he is the DaVinci of the subject, his weight of contribution is going to always be weighed against his ability to work well with others. Its a community; if he wants to be a luminary, he needs to seek another venue. [more sarcasm and patronizing comments].
The Jack-the-Ripper.org site is not a spam site. DG's seeming disallowance of this particular site seems less than genuine, [bad faith assumption] especially when one considers that he admins a JTR site, and we neither have no way to know if the site in question takes away visitors to his site nor do we know if he personally endorses hs own site. In fact, we do not know what site he admns for; that said, it would seem prudent for him to recuse himself on matters concerning external JTR links, unless he is willing and prepared to disclose what site he actually admins on. He doesn't have to do it here. As Kbthompson is in fact an admn, he needs only disclose it to him, and Kbt can evaluate the legitimacy of DG's contention with the contested site. [whole paragraph a suggestion of impropriety].
I note also that you completely failed to address any of the concerns raised by Dreamguy in the previous post. In effect this entire post of yours is nothing more than a tirade against Dreamguy and an attack on his character. The fact that Dreamguy resisted the temptation to respond to you in kind showed a remarkable degree of forbearance in my view, particularly since you continue in this tone for the entire length of the page.
So really, I think maybe it's time you stopped blaming Dreamguy for all the problems, stepped back and took an objective look at your own behaviour. Then perhaps you will be able to acknowledge at the very least that the unhelpful attitude is by no means all on the one side. Gatoclass ( talk) 16:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
(unindent)First of all, from noticing the situation in an MfD, I've been following PHG and noticing Elonka's behavior with respect to him. Without any comment on the history (perhaps PHG was truly a monster, or whatever), Elonka has indeed been taking it upon herself to closely monitor PHG's behavior and, it certainly appears, to attack him and it, exaggerating the ArbComm decision regarding PHG as if it were a weapon rather than an attempt to cool things down. Both parties have been what I would define as uncivil, but Wikipedia often has a looser definition than I. Absolutely, using a word like "wikistalking" is inflammatory; however, it is criticism of a user's alleged behavior and not a personal attack as such. From what I've seen over the last months, the number one problem on Wikipedia is incivility and AGF failure. It's infectious. There is a reason for the AGF policy; failure to follow it can create enormous disruption. When one user is incivil to another, we respect an ability of the target to restrain himself or herself, and we respect it precisely because we know it is difficult. AGF failure breeds more AGF failure as, then, others jump in to defend what they see as an unfairly attacked editor. And positions harden. At some point it has to stop. I'm not at all familiar with the DreamGuy situation, but I see incivility aplenty on just about all sides, above. I'm a parent with five grown children and two small ones, and it is common for sibilings to fight. When I come upon a "situation," it can be very easy to pin the blame on one of them, as being the one who, at the moment of discovery, was reacting (or attacking). But the roots of these spats go deep into past slights and offenses, and as a parent, I have to start with "Stop!" And I can be, even, severe, with those who will not stop. And then, "Now, what's happening?" And then I hear both of them, and in that process, they *are* allowed to complain about the behavior of the other, and, to the extent I can manage it, they are also required to listen to the other. "Can you understand how she felt when you said that? Yes, you are not actually a "poopy-head," but, after all, she is younger than you and hasn't yet learned how to direct say what she needs to say." I might say to one of them. When they can understand each other, they can also, sometimes, sympathize, and they can then begin to find out how they can cooperate, toward mutual goals, even when they don't always like each other.
From what I've seen, taking a situation to AN/I or AN/AE can be somewhat like tossing gas on a smoldering fire. It is not a stage in dispute resolution. It is, rather, more like calling the police. AN is the 911 of Wikipedia, and should properly be reserved for true, immediate emergencies. It encourages snap judgments, just like the police must make snap judgments. But we train police how to do that, how to avoid prejudice and personal involvement. In a situation I saw recently, a user was warned by an adminstrator to cease an activity. The user was rude in response, while, at the same time, clearly indicating that he would not continue. Very rude. The administrator blocked him. Was that proper? ArbComm has ruled, pretty clearly, not. An insult like that is incivility, not personal attack (unless explicitly so). (The incivility was placing an image of an upraised finger, which is a gesture that means "You cannot control me," it is almost never a precursor to violence in the real world *unless* the "target" responds violently. I.e., responds to incivility, one offense, with a personal attack, a more serious offense.) With the warning, the administrator was doing his job. Part of that job is to interrupt people from doing what they want to do. This is guaranteed to raise some anger, often. When people get angry, even when they are normally civil, they may be the opposite, they express their anger. But how they express it is crucial. For the administrator I mentioned to become angry at the rude image was understandable and no offense at all. But for him to block is quite equivalent to a police officer arresting a person because the person "gives him the finger." Do you know what happens to a police officer who does that, if there was no reasonable fear of a violation of law? (And it is not against the law, in the U.S., to be rude to a police officer in that manner, if not associated with violence or actual threat.) The officer would be reprimanded and could lose his job, if those facts could be shown.
The problem with AN/I and AN/AE is that admins tend to try to figure out who is "wrong" and stop that person; ostensibly this is the most efficient solution, but only short-term. In standard dispute resolution, however, a trained arbiter would ask them *all* to stop, not just the "bad guy." And then would either refer them to a proper venue for the dispute or other means of resolution. (A police officer would restrain and/or arrest any party who did not stop, not just the original offender.) ArbComm frequently places users on some sort of short leash with regard to incivility. When others are not on the same leash, it can create an imbalanced situation, where a user who has been uncivil in the past is essentially expected to rise above it all and be more restrained than average, and such users can be blocked for offenses that would hardly raise eyebrows when another commits them. I see loads of incivility above. From experience, folks, how likely is it that the parties other than DreamGuy and PHG will receive even a warning, much less a block, for it? This is why, in fact, these disputes often end in community bans. An impossible situation is created, requiring someone who is not a saint to act like more like one than most of us can manage. Addressing this problem is not easy, and it is not simple. But it would start with, at least, recognizing the problem. And, folks, including especially DreamGuy and PHG, my advice is to act like saints. In fact, we are required to assume good faith and only abandon it upon conclusive proof of other than that, and this is policy, not mere guideline. If we do so, we are, in fact, acting like saints, even if we feel like killing the )#$&Y)%, and maybe the world, including this corner of it, will start to function a little more smoothly. Or a lot more smoothly.-- Abd ( talk) 14:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
There are those among us who would love to see a restriction end in a ban. These are the true enemies of our community, and we need to be very, very careful about these people, or, more accurately, about these tendencies among us. Take a look at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day and then at the edits of those IP addresses. Then notice how few objected to those edits, popping up in community discussions. A segment of users were angry with a particular user, and, hey, we really think the guy is a jerk, and so what if this IP editor pops in expressing what we feel? "Hehe, I like that!" was one user comment, or similar. Those IP edits were, essentially, lies intended to defame and inflame, and when we find ourselves agreeing with such, it is really time to hold up a mirror, we are in serious danger. This is destroying this community, one user at a time. -- Abd ( talk) 14:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
- "If he makes 'any' edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below"
I'm closing this with no action. I largely agree with User:Gatoclass' evaluation of the matter--some users are attempting to provoke DreamGuy into bad behavior so that he can be removed from the scene. A particularly telling diff is [89], as is [90]. The ArbCom decision is not a magical license to poke DreamGuy with a stick until he's impolite, then try to get him blocked; that's gaming the system, and I have no sympathy for it.
As for the specific diffs listed in the original complaint, I don't find that they contravene our highly variable and inconsistently applied standards for civility. I would note, though, that civility is a policy that is supposed to apply to all editors, not just those with ArbCom decisions against them, and that if DreamGuy's edits listed above are uncivil, it would not be that difficult to go to Talk:Jack the Ripper and find edits by other editors that are equally so. If DreamGuy is to be blocked for his edits, I would have no trouble saying that some other editors in this situation ought to be as well. I strongly recommend that the editors involved in the dispute at Jack the Ripper find a way to work together, or seek mediation; trying to get DG blocked is not a constructive way of addressing the problems here.
In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll note that I've interacted with DG before at Tiamat, but I don't consider myself even remotely involved in this dispute. --Akhilleus ( talk) 20:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
This fully protected article is under probation per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Bluemarine. 7 inline citations that go to footnotes 1, 18, and 19 reference copyvio material hosted at YouTube, in violation of WP:BIO, WP:RS and Wikipedia:COPYRIGHT#Linking_to_copyrighted_works. Footnote 19 is no longer even functional because the copyvio material has been removed from YouTube. Requesting that these links and the potentially defamatory claims that reference them be removed from the article. Durova Charge! 23:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC) reply
BTW the AOL IP who trolled Benjiboi today cannot be Matt Sanchez. Matt Sanchez is not in the United States. Here's a link to a site that shows he was interviewed yesterday on French television. [106] He's in the center column. If you don't read French you can see his photograph. Durova Charge! 02:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Striking through my earlier support of Benjiboi's request. His participation at this board is tendentious and gives every indication of an intent to resume old contentions about WP:COPYRIGHT and other obvious policy issues. I do not understand why he continues to insist upon sourcing to copyvio YouTube videos instead of obtaining legitimate links or transcripts, but things need to move forward and his arguments are repetitive and have been amply rebutted.
Benjiboi has my sympathy for the trolling at his user talk today; those insults were abominable. Yet he reverses the burden of proof in continuing to attribute them to Matt Sanchez. As my link above demonstrates, Matt Sanchez is in France and unable to access AOL. Furthermore, I was lucky enough to catch him online tonight (it was the wee hours in France) and he was unaware that this noticeboard thread or the bans were taking place. If an uninvolved administrator wishes to review that chat log I will ask Matt for permission to forward it. The summary version is that he acted surprised and pleased to learn about these developments, but for the most part his attentions are elsewhere and he's moving on from the disputes at Wikipedia. As I stated to Benjiboi, I mentor Matt on Commons but do not proxy for him--I supported his siteban from Wikipedia, for instance. Benjiboi has offered no evidence to support his contention that the IP troll was a meatpuppet of Sanchez.
So this topic ban has had a fair chance at reconsideration. I have invited Benjiboi to post his concerns about the Matt Sanchez article at my user talk if he wishes, in addition to the other options already specified, and pledge to review anything he offers there neutrally. To reviewing administrators, please regard such posts as welcome and non-blockable, and if things move forward productively I will follow up at this noticeboard with a request that the page ban be lifted. Hopefully that will be soon. With respect toward all, Durova Charge! 04:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Persistent POV-pushing and deletion of references from Macedonia naming dispute. User has a personal disagreement with the author of a book published by a major US publishing house concerning the Greece-Macedonia dispute. After posting a vitriolic message about the author ( [107]) he deleted the article's reference to that book, using a highly misleading edit summary ( [108]). I have notified him of this arbitration and WP:CENSOR, but he has deleted this notification from his talk page ( [109]). He has since repeatedly added highly POV comments concerning the author to the article in an obvious attempt at poisoning the well/discrediting the source ( [110], [111]). The user's comments on my talk page ( [112]) do not lead me to believe that he is likely to respect either the arbitration's requirements or Wikipedia's general policy standards. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I mentioned Macedonia naming dispute to Xenovatis on his/her talk page at 12:45, 22 March 2008.
Luckily I saw the reference to this page that was on Xenovatis's talk page by ChrisO's before Xenovatis removed it, [115], so it was lucky that I am able to comment here and put the record strait. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 14:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
This user [127] seems to have broken this restriction [128] [129] , here [130]. Two reverts in one day. I've reported here [131]. The moderator suggest me to write here.
I just wrote to tell: 1) If I try to give a small contribute (right or wrong) in a respectful way, there is no reason to call me "frustrate" or "insignificant". 2) It's on you to judge if one user broke a restriction and if both users are members of a sort nationalistic wikipedian-club, as claimed by some people (just read around!!!). Regards. -- 217.202.86.126 ( talk) 20:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC) reply
ScienceApologist ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject to a civility parole per Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#ScienceApologist_restricted. On 14:28, 25 March 2008, ScienceApologist made an in violation of that restriction, after being blocked on many occasions for prior violations. I therefore request that ScienceApologist be blocked for an adequate period of time, consistent with Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Enforcement_by_block. John254 23:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Copied for User talk:Thatcher
As I wrote above, I suspect that AhmadinV ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is a newly created sockpuppet of user:Grandy Grandy/ user:The Dragon of Bosnia see first edit to Bosnian mujahideen with the comment "again" and compare it with the last edit of user:The Dragon of Bosnia to the same page. user:The Dragon of Bosnia/ user:Grandy Grandy has been banned from editing see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#March 2008 - May 2008. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 13:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Regardless of whether or not this user is a sockpuppet, he engages in edit warring. --Blanchardb- Me• MyEars• MyMouth-timed 14:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I read Wikipedia a long time ago. I am not stupid, I look at your contribution, by the way I am programmer in PHP/C/C++. I was administrator in a PHPBB2 forum, I need some practice in communicating and writing in English. I am interested in Arabs articles, because of my origin. Ahmadin.
See also Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/AhmadinV. --Blanchardb- Me• MyEars• MyMouth-timed 15:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Giano II (
talk ·
contribs ·
logs ·
block log) is under a
civility ruling that reads:
and a second remedy:
and rather specifically a third remedy about exactly this topic:
Giano has been uncivil to FloNight before [138] on March 6, in exactly the same context, and on the same page, since the above decision. At that time it was hoped the old behavior would end. It evidently has not. I take that as an aggravating factor since it seems to signify that Giano felt able to be uncivil, be ignored, which in turn has encouraged the belief that this incivility (which is more direct) will also be ignored. Several users presented evidence to this effect during the case [139] [140] [141] [142].
Giano was also uncivil here [143] on March 18.
At 19:05 March 25, Giano II engaged FloNight on her talk page about the admin IRC channel. In the course of that, Giano II made the following two posts, which I judge uncivil yet again: this and this.
The enforcement provision for the case reads:
I have therefore blocked Giano II for 31 hours. The IRC case conclusion was overwhelmingly and repeatedly "be civil", and events since then show that Giano is back to his old habit of uncivil (and possibly in the eyes of some, snarky or bad faith) comments, and on more than one occasion.
FT2 ( Talk | email) 01:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC) reply
FT2 has the right to make his block but I doubt it is helpful. Giano has just left his grouching mode and started to write articles. Maybe we really should not distract him. Especially since he promised to greatly rewrite the Winter Palace article ( Saint Petersburg is my home city). Oh well, it seems like the subordination is taking precedence over the content creation nowadays. Alex Bakharev ( talk) 04:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Our blocking policy states that it is recommended to post controversial or potentially controversial blocks to the Administrator's Noticeboard. I believe it would be appropriate to post a notice with a link to this block review. Please note that this is not an apologia for Giano; he's responsible for his own behaviour. I am simply pointing out that I expected you, FT2, to have acted in the same way we would expect any other involved party to act, and to post your request for sanction here on the AE board for disinterested and uninvolved users to assess the situation and, if indicated, to have made the block. Risker ( talk) 04:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC) reply
May I make a suggestion? For whatever reason, Giano listen to some people more than others. If something like this happens again, can I suggest, in all seriousness, that someone ask one of those people to have a quiet word with Giano, warn him if needed, or pour oil on troubled waters and make communication easier? That way we might actually make some progress without the hugely lengthy thread above. I know, Giano could handle himself better in the first place, but seriously, look past how he says things and actually reply to him and engage with him, and the mountain will become a molehill. There is no need to take offence at every instance of perceived incivility. Carcharoth ( talk) 13:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC) reply
This was a cowardly block by an arbitrator with a conflict of interest. It was executed to disguise the fact that the Arbcom had performed a complete U turn on one of their own passed resolutions. It is further evidence of this flawed and failing Arbcom. Giano ( talk) 14:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC) reply