This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
It should be written anew. -- HanzoHattori 13:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- The order of 50 people for one wounded German soldier came on 16th of September by Willhelm Keitel. How could Nedic knew in advance (1st of September) about this order? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.147.128.31 ( talk) 10:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
This article may need to be rewritten because unsourced conjecture, typographical errors, confusing lines. -- Asterion talk 00:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Image:Milan Nedic.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 04:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 18:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Judenfrei serbia stamps.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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As template in article head also imply, this article is full of questionable sources that are not neutral and proper for this subject. Section legacy have refname Perica 2002 without any proper book about it, and also, there is ref from Nin while it is unclear who said that, to whom? Both unreliable sources. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ) 11:10, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
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@ OyMosby: Cohen is not RS and that other source is not claiming the same thing, as far as I can see. [2] Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 03:06, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
On 1 September 1941 Nedić made a speech on Radio Belgrade in which he declared the intent of his administration to "save the core of the Serbian people" occupied and surrounded by Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, the Independent State of Croatia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Albanians and Bosnian Muslims by accepting the occupation of Germany in the area of Sumadija, Drina Valley, Pomoravlje and Banat. This information does not have confirmation in RS. I searched for information on his 1941 speech but I do not find this quote: "occupied and surrounded by Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, the Independent State of Croatia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Albanians and Bosnian Muslims". Speaking against German allies and Germany at the time when he and Serbia become a German ally not makes sense. I suggest deleting this fictional information from the article. Mikola22 ( talk) 08:04, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
He also spoke against organizing resistance to the occupying forces, because there was a German rule that 50 Serbs were to be murdered for each wounded German soldier and 100 for each killed soldier. In addition, at least 300,000 Serbs were forcefully taken to German camps. His state's propaganda was funded by Germany and promoted anti-Semitism and anti-communism, particularly linking these up with anti-masonry. Kragujevac massacre article I quote: "On 16 September, Hitler issued Directive No. 312 to Generalfeldmarschall (Field Marshal) Wilhelm List, the Wehrmacht commander in Southeast Europe, ordering him to suppress all resistance in that part of the continent. That same day, the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht; OKW) issued Hitler's order on the suppression of "Communist Armed Resistance Movements in the Occupied Areas", signed by Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Keitel. This decree specified that all attacks against the Germans on the Eastern Front were to be "regarded as being of communist origin", and that 100 hostages were to be shot for every German soldier killed and 50 were to be shot for every German soldier wounded" [1] This command was given "On 16 September and alleged Nedić words I quote: "there was a German rule that 50 Serbs were to be murdered for each wounded German soldier and 100 for each killed soldier." was on 1 September 1941.@ Peacemaker67: Therefore Nedić could not say this before Hitler's order. Neither current RS or some other RS talk about cited Nedić words. This is about "editorialising commentary, not part of his speech". The same goes and for the second part of the quote "In addition, at least 300,000 Serbs were forcefully taken to German camps." Mikola22 ( talk) 05:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
The German occupiers held no respect for his authority or Serbs, and during the war over 300,000[verification needed] people died in Serbia of war-related causes in German reprisals, which as described above demanded 100 killed Serbs for each killed German soldier, as in the Kragujevac massacre. Source: "Byford, Jovan (2011). "Willing Bystanders: Dimitrije Ljotić, "Shield Collaboration" and the Destruction of Serbia's Jews". In Haynes, Rebecca; Rady, Martyn (eds.). In the Shadow of Hitler: Personalities of the Right in Central and Eastern Europe. London: I.B.Tauris. ISBN 978-1-84511-697-2. (page 303)".
@ Peacemaker67: This is about Serbia, would you please quote this information, I'm looking for it in the book(Serbia under the Swastika: A World War II Occupation) page 53 or 180, but there is no such information. Thanks. Mikola22 ( talk) 08:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67: I am sorry? How is a minor party of minimal importance relevant? What is next, some hobo's opinion? The source is not the problem, relevance sure is, and I am not sure what you are implying that I am doing. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:06, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
I have just reverted POV pushing as any other editor can. This article is not in a good state, especially the lead, fails to mention all sorts of important aspects of his biography, and any additions of uncontested facts such as this which are cited to a highly reliable academic source in the body are welcome. On my talk page, Griboski says it is the "stable" version, but the "stable" version of an inadequate lead is completely meaningless. It isn't a GA, it is Start Class. The removal of this information from the lead is serious POV pushing, because it is an attempt to avoid mentioning the whitewashing of the involvement of Nedić in all sorts of collaborative activities and highlight the strong current of revisionism in Serbian historiography regarding the collaboration of Serbs with the Germans in the occupied territory, by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts no less. Something that anyone that had read widely on the subject would be aware of, and would expect to find in the lead. I can only assume that editors removing such material from the lead are trying to hide aspects of his biography in order to push a pro-Serbian POV. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 21:53, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
The 1993 book The 100 most prominent Serbs published by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts(that information is repeated twice in the same paragraph) which is not per sources or yes, facts. [4] Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 12:41, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
which sources do you have to show that the book was published by SANU or that is the opinion of the Academy?We do not have this information in the introductory part. This is information from introductory part "He was included in The 100 most prominent Serbs list". As for information's which exists in legacy section we have this: "In 1995, the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts published a volume entitled 100 Outstanding Serbs and included Nedić on the list", and this: "The 1993 book The 100 most prominent Serbs published by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts included an entry on Nedić...", these are information's from two sources and if here exist some problems you have WP:RSN and WP:FTN, and try to use possibilities which Wikipedia offers to you.
A group of academics which make up max. 10% of the total academy member can't speak for the academy.This can be a debate in "The 100 most prominent Serbs" article. If you have sources which say that a large part of academic community opposed that book or that SANU officially opposed that book, feel free to enter this information's to the article for NPOV. Mikola22 ( talk) 15:55, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
Radio Television of Serbia in 2020 broadcast history lecture for eighth grade students in which was affirmatively spoken about Milan Nedić. The wording is quite interesting. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 21:18, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
Bešlin's work is an opinion piece, written from his ideological perspectiveHis information's are from WP:RS („Serbian Mother Before the Court of Nation: Milan Nedic and Rehabilitation of Collaboration in Postsocialist Serbia“, Limes Plus, br. 2-3/2018, page. 9‒22.) [7]
We can't c/p 2 sources claiming something which is simply incorrect.You did not say that in the case of 200,000 Serbs which coming to Slavonia and Croatia, even though you knew that this information was based on forgery, and Serbian academician Sima Ćirković speaks about that in RS. [8]. We must respect the sources. Also provide the first pages of that book for review that we see who participated in the publication of that book. Mikola22 ( talk) 19:05, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Also, please do not edit articles when logged outAlso, please do not talk fairy tales when we discuss serious things. Mikola22 ( talk) 21:17, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I had to call to tell you that there are four editions of the book The 100 most prominent Serbs 1993,2001,2009,2011 [ [11]],[ [12]], [ [13]], [ [14]] so you know,Goodbye. 93.138.30.160 ( talk) 21:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Here it is from 1995 [ [15]] and others [ [16]] 93.138.30.160 ( talk) 22:11, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
It should be written anew. -- HanzoHattori 13:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- The order of 50 people for one wounded German soldier came on 16th of September by Willhelm Keitel. How could Nedic knew in advance (1st of September) about this order? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.147.128.31 ( talk) 10:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
This article may need to be rewritten because unsourced conjecture, typographical errors, confusing lines. -- Asterion talk 00:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Image:Milan Nedic.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 04:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 18:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Judenfrei serbia stamps.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --10:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
As template in article head also imply, this article is full of questionable sources that are not neutral and proper for this subject. Section legacy have refname Perica 2002 without any proper book about it, and also, there is ref from Nin while it is unclear who said that, to whom? Both unreliable sources. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ) 11:10, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Milan Nedić. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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@ OyMosby: Cohen is not RS and that other source is not claiming the same thing, as far as I can see. [2] Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 03:06, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
On 1 September 1941 Nedić made a speech on Radio Belgrade in which he declared the intent of his administration to "save the core of the Serbian people" occupied and surrounded by Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, the Independent State of Croatia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Albanians and Bosnian Muslims by accepting the occupation of Germany in the area of Sumadija, Drina Valley, Pomoravlje and Banat. This information does not have confirmation in RS. I searched for information on his 1941 speech but I do not find this quote: "occupied and surrounded by Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, the Independent State of Croatia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Albanians and Bosnian Muslims". Speaking against German allies and Germany at the time when he and Serbia become a German ally not makes sense. I suggest deleting this fictional information from the article. Mikola22 ( talk) 08:04, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
He also spoke against organizing resistance to the occupying forces, because there was a German rule that 50 Serbs were to be murdered for each wounded German soldier and 100 for each killed soldier. In addition, at least 300,000 Serbs were forcefully taken to German camps. His state's propaganda was funded by Germany and promoted anti-Semitism and anti-communism, particularly linking these up with anti-masonry. Kragujevac massacre article I quote: "On 16 September, Hitler issued Directive No. 312 to Generalfeldmarschall (Field Marshal) Wilhelm List, the Wehrmacht commander in Southeast Europe, ordering him to suppress all resistance in that part of the continent. That same day, the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht; OKW) issued Hitler's order on the suppression of "Communist Armed Resistance Movements in the Occupied Areas", signed by Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Keitel. This decree specified that all attacks against the Germans on the Eastern Front were to be "regarded as being of communist origin", and that 100 hostages were to be shot for every German soldier killed and 50 were to be shot for every German soldier wounded" [1] This command was given "On 16 September and alleged Nedić words I quote: "there was a German rule that 50 Serbs were to be murdered for each wounded German soldier and 100 for each killed soldier." was on 1 September 1941.@ Peacemaker67: Therefore Nedić could not say this before Hitler's order. Neither current RS or some other RS talk about cited Nedić words. This is about "editorialising commentary, not part of his speech". The same goes and for the second part of the quote "In addition, at least 300,000 Serbs were forcefully taken to German camps." Mikola22 ( talk) 05:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
The German occupiers held no respect for his authority or Serbs, and during the war over 300,000[verification needed] people died in Serbia of war-related causes in German reprisals, which as described above demanded 100 killed Serbs for each killed German soldier, as in the Kragujevac massacre. Source: "Byford, Jovan (2011). "Willing Bystanders: Dimitrije Ljotić, "Shield Collaboration" and the Destruction of Serbia's Jews". In Haynes, Rebecca; Rady, Martyn (eds.). In the Shadow of Hitler: Personalities of the Right in Central and Eastern Europe. London: I.B.Tauris. ISBN 978-1-84511-697-2. (page 303)".
@ Peacemaker67: This is about Serbia, would you please quote this information, I'm looking for it in the book(Serbia under the Swastika: A World War II Occupation) page 53 or 180, but there is no such information. Thanks. Mikola22 ( talk) 08:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67: I am sorry? How is a minor party of minimal importance relevant? What is next, some hobo's opinion? The source is not the problem, relevance sure is, and I am not sure what you are implying that I am doing. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:06, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
I have just reverted POV pushing as any other editor can. This article is not in a good state, especially the lead, fails to mention all sorts of important aspects of his biography, and any additions of uncontested facts such as this which are cited to a highly reliable academic source in the body are welcome. On my talk page, Griboski says it is the "stable" version, but the "stable" version of an inadequate lead is completely meaningless. It isn't a GA, it is Start Class. The removal of this information from the lead is serious POV pushing, because it is an attempt to avoid mentioning the whitewashing of the involvement of Nedić in all sorts of collaborative activities and highlight the strong current of revisionism in Serbian historiography regarding the collaboration of Serbs with the Germans in the occupied territory, by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts no less. Something that anyone that had read widely on the subject would be aware of, and would expect to find in the lead. I can only assume that editors removing such material from the lead are trying to hide aspects of his biography in order to push a pro-Serbian POV. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 21:53, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
The 1993 book The 100 most prominent Serbs published by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts(that information is repeated twice in the same paragraph) which is not per sources or yes, facts. [4] Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 12:41, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
which sources do you have to show that the book was published by SANU or that is the opinion of the Academy?We do not have this information in the introductory part. This is information from introductory part "He was included in The 100 most prominent Serbs list". As for information's which exists in legacy section we have this: "In 1995, the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts published a volume entitled 100 Outstanding Serbs and included Nedić on the list", and this: "The 1993 book The 100 most prominent Serbs published by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts included an entry on Nedić...", these are information's from two sources and if here exist some problems you have WP:RSN and WP:FTN, and try to use possibilities which Wikipedia offers to you.
A group of academics which make up max. 10% of the total academy member can't speak for the academy.This can be a debate in "The 100 most prominent Serbs" article. If you have sources which say that a large part of academic community opposed that book or that SANU officially opposed that book, feel free to enter this information's to the article for NPOV. Mikola22 ( talk) 15:55, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
Radio Television of Serbia in 2020 broadcast history lecture for eighth grade students in which was affirmatively spoken about Milan Nedić. The wording is quite interesting. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 21:18, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
Bešlin's work is an opinion piece, written from his ideological perspectiveHis information's are from WP:RS („Serbian Mother Before the Court of Nation: Milan Nedic and Rehabilitation of Collaboration in Postsocialist Serbia“, Limes Plus, br. 2-3/2018, page. 9‒22.) [7]
We can't c/p 2 sources claiming something which is simply incorrect.You did not say that in the case of 200,000 Serbs which coming to Slavonia and Croatia, even though you knew that this information was based on forgery, and Serbian academician Sima Ćirković speaks about that in RS. [8]. We must respect the sources. Also provide the first pages of that book for review that we see who participated in the publication of that book. Mikola22 ( talk) 19:05, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Also, please do not edit articles when logged outAlso, please do not talk fairy tales when we discuss serious things. Mikola22 ( talk) 21:17, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I had to call to tell you that there are four editions of the book The 100 most prominent Serbs 1993,2001,2009,2011 [ [11]],[ [12]], [ [13]], [ [14]] so you know,Goodbye. 93.138.30.160 ( talk) 21:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Here it is from 1995 [ [15]] and others [ [16]] 93.138.30.160 ( talk) 22:11, 8 February 2021 (UTC)