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Hi. Some Wikipedians have been talking over at Wikipedia talk:Ignore all rules, and some of us have agreed that the Ignore all rules policy is often misunderstood (I note that there's one disagreement about it on this page now, a few sections up), and that it might benefit from some kind of explanation as to its intent. Edits to the text of the policy tend to get reverted, quickly and decisively, by various Wikipedians, so we've been talking about what we might do.
Someone made a list of a handful of essays that address the role that our "rules" play in this project, and what it means to ignore them, while generally following them. We've set up a talk page section collecting people's reactions to these essays, after which we'll decide whether to edit the policy, or what to do.
It would be great to get more input from the community in deciding how to reduce confusion about this important and controversial policy. Please feel free to drop by and share your thoughts. Cheers. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey there! We've been having some great discussion at Wikipedia:Proposed adminship. We've been talking about a way to make the RfA process easy, simple, and free of process wonkery. This has been a long time coming, especially given the megabytes of argument and discussion over what to do about RfA over at WT:RFA. Basically, this is a way to truly make adminship no big deal. As per the norm, I'm wondering what you fine folk might have to add to the policy or if you have any comments, questions, or suggestions. Thanks for reading and I appreciate you all taking time out of your day to check this out! gaillimh Conas tá tú? 21:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
A small number of editors want to tag Help:Creating policy as 'historical" or "rejected". IMO this page is a perfectly valid guideline, and very good advice on creating new policy and process pages in a civil and orderly way. I urge more people to discuss the matter at Help talk:Creating policy, so that a broader consensus on whether to improve, abandon, or endorse the current state of this page can develop DES (talk) 18:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
This guideline does not have consensus. Of 80 documented attempts to use it, only 8 are listed as successful. But wait, 6 of those cases had intervention by Jimbo Wales. That means we have maybe only 2 successful cases without intervention. Of those 2 remaining, I have doubts if the process used for at least one of those ( proposed deletion) is accurately represented as having using this particular proposal process.
That's enough for me to start wondering about the last example as well.
We can surmise that this guideline has been overwhelmingly rejected in the one location where consensus really counts and works: in the field. We shouldn't be telling people to use it at all.
-- Kim Bruning 18:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have created a page in my userspace at User:ESkog/Rationales, which I plan to use in edit summaries, attempting to clarify the proper use of fair-use rationales, which seems to confuse many users. Please feel free to edit, and add to the "good examples" sections. ( ESkog)( Talk) 15:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed changes to the varieties of English guideline that do not change their spirit but which I think would be improvements. Please comment at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Proposal for changes to the "National varieties of English" section. Joeldl 09:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOR and WP:NPOV are the most "used" policies in disputes, and deletion reasons. They both lead, in fact, to Wikipedia:Verifiability. WP:NOR and WP:NPOV are nowadays used to ban opposite opinions, by simply chosing one of 'em, and stamping on that nasty opinion, so in fact, they're (these policies) turned inside out, no matter, that those opinions are (mainly) verifiable, or even in some times, the "truth", itself, aka. the academic viewpoint. And this is where WP:NPOV comes in: As far as I see, in minor or marginal/unpopular topics (for ex. Taner Akcam) the NPOV is what came first, not what is neutral or real. To be clear, Akcam was described as a terrorist in his Wikipedia bio, while in fact, he's not, even so, he's a scientist, who's acknowledgeing and researching the armenian holocaust, a thing, Turkey still not aknowledge, and Turkish nationalists would kill anybody, who acknowledges it. See for example Hrant Dink. More on this at Wikipedia:Village pump (news)#Akcam vs. Wikipedia: POV in articles, including The Independent's more detailed article about the case. How seriously and how well are these, (otherwise good) policies taken? -- 91.120.98.165 12:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Or simply remember/reread Siegenthaler controversy, the most famous of such. -- 91.120.98.165 12:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Very? No. By ""NPOV is what came first, not what is neutral or real" I mean that the first opinion, wich has been written here (on enwiki) is declared NPOV, no matter how huge POV it is. This is occuring in marginal/unpopular topics, like history or politics of small (aka relatively unknown) countries. -- 91.120.82.69 23:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about the article Prem Rawat. The problem is that certain statements are so sensitive and controversial that there have been near-endless disputes about mis paraphrasing selective or out-of-context summarizing of scholarly sources. A solution was finally found in adding verbatim short quotes from the scholarly sources. However this has led to counter-quotes. It has been argued that war of opposing scholarly quotes has led to a bad article. But I do not see an alternative. see User_talk:Rumiton#How.3F The number of words per scholar have been counted to assess allegations of undue weight which I think shows how far the dispute has come. Talk:Prem_Rawat#The_point_of_Andries.27_proposal Any comments? Andries 18:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The word " Gun fu" is a neologism or protologism (search google to check this, a few slang mentions of it but nothing "formal" or "widespread"). But the article called Gun fu is not about the word as such, its about a certain style of gunplay seen in films. So the article subject is notable, but its title is a neologism.
The article throughout uses the term gun fu just as a quick shorthand to refer to this style, which would otherwise have to be referred to with a long unwieldy name, such as "John Woo-inspired close-quarters gunplay in film" or somesuch.
What should be done in a case like this? Should the word gun fu be enclosed in quote marks throughout the article? Should the article be renamed? Should the words "gun fu" be replaced with something else throughout the article?
Thoughts here please Talk:Gun fu#quotes around gun fu. 86.27.73.208 17:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it really acceptable to include categories for wikipedians in general category? E.g. Category:Global warming skeptics. Isn't this kind of against our no self references policy? Nil Einne 08:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Way back in July 2005, a guideline was inserted into Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) on a 20-6-2 vote (the latter 2 arguing "No more stupid votes"). This was apparently done without consulting the editors of articles which would be affected by this change. As a result, discussions have flared up several times since then, with Manual of Style regulars generally favoring the status quo, and editors of the articles in question generally opposing the guideline. Recent discussion clearly shows that the guideline has no consensus at this point in time. I have stated on the talk page that I will remove it on the grounds of lack of consensus, and have been told in return that I can't do that, that a lack of consensus always defaults to the status quo. This seems wrong to me. A tiny handful of editors can make "consensus" on one corner of Wikipedia, and then enforce it everywhere and demand that others form a consensus against them before it stops? I do not believe the Manual of Style was ever intended for such purposes. Which interpretation of consensus policy is correct? Do MoS guidelines need consensus to remove, or is the lack of any consensus for keeping them enough to deprecate them? *** Crotalus *** 21:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Consensus is people agreeing to do stuff. If there are people in the field doing one thing, and there are some letters elsewhere saying another thing, then the consensus is with the people and the doing, not so much with the letters and the saying. :-) -- Kim Bruning 02:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems like more work perhaps, but it's actually less work than dealing with the static generated by being stubborn. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
As for it being "for one person to decide that a consensus never existed", I don't get the impression we're dealing with just one person - am I wrong? If someone is disagreeing with the guideline, then whoever is "enforcing" the guideline should at least stop for long enough to point them to the appropriate talk page, and they'll either see that there really is broad agreement, or we'll all see that there isn't. I don't see what the hurry is to get the guideline enforced without pausing to talk about it. Communication is work, and it's worth it. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
These are not rigid laws: they are principles that many editors have found to work well in most circumstances, but which should be applied with flexibility. In this vein, editors should strive to have their articles follow these guidelines. While quality of writing may be more important than presentation and formatting, these elements also have their place in clear and unbiased delivery of information. One of the joys of wiki editing is that Wikipedia does not demand perfection. Wikipedia does not require writers to follow all or any of these rules, but their efforts will be more appreciated when they are guided by them.
The guideline you're trying to "enforce" must not have a very strong consensus behind it, or you wouldn't be running into so much opposition. Your job, and the job of those opposing you, is to stop editing, talk on the guideline talk page, and determine what the consensus is now. It doesn't matter what it was two years ago; it matters what it is now. Since it's now in dispute, your editing to "enforce" it is inappropriate.
It's this simple: Once you know there's a conflict, stop and talk. We're not in a hurry, but we are under an obligation to be excellent to each other always. That means listening, and trying to respond to current consensus as you detect it. Consensus is not detected by reading a guideline, but by listening to editors. If there's no consensus, then editing binary prefixes in either direction is inappropriate, just like we don't edit "BC" vs "BCE" or "color" vs "colour". - GTBacchus( talk) 19:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
As for consistency being more important than not edit warring, that makes no sense - allow me to explain why. We work towards consensus because this is a wiki. It's inherent in the software that we can't just go around enforcing our ideas against significant disagreement. Anyone can edit, and if you go against a lot of people, they'll edit it back anyway. Since you can't control them, you have to discuss. It's not a rule so much as a law of nature: if you don't swim, you're gonna sink. The name of the game here is consensus, and we have no choice about that.
It's not about "fear" of binding rules, it's about how we work together as human beings and get something done. If you think Wikipedia needs more binding rules, then I think you can find other online encyclopedias that work that way. They're not nearly as successful as Wikipedia, which is why I think the "No binding rules" philosophy is actually pretty effective. Edit wars are caused by edit warriors, and they're always wrong.
Edit warring is bad because it makes article histories and "recent changes" less useful, it distracts editors from getting productive work done, and it encourages others to edit war, over style, content, and everything else, leading to a Wikipedia that's bogged down in back-and-forth, "is not!"/"is too!" arguments. The only civilized solution, the only solution that works on a wiki, is for everyone to work for consensus. Yes, that means stopping and talking. Yes, that makes things take longer. No, we're not in a hurry. No, it doens't make guidelines "worthless"; it makes them more responsive to the community and better indicators of consensus. Yes, we all learn more and respect each other more in the process. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Policies and guidelines should reflect the consensus, then we should always assume than they reflect consensus until they are actually changed. We should "stop and talk" only if it doesn't concern a guideline or a policy. We don't "stop and talk" when dealing with vandalism. We shouldn't "stop and talk" when dealing with style, we should talk... and stop only if there's a new strong consensus or if there's no guideline. IMHO that's a pragmatic application of the "consensus spirit". Sarenne 10:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The whole point of a Manual of Style is to suggest a uniform style for the entire project. It doesn't "enforce" anything.
Consensus can always change, and "consensus to change a guideline" or "consensus to demote a guideline" is a bogus idea. Policies and guidelines don't become "stuck" after a small number of people have agreed on them. As soon as editors stop agreeing on something, it is no longer binding. — Omegatron 14:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Message to GTBacchus, there are alot more then just five of us as a matter of fact we (user who think MB is more exceptable then MiB) greatly outnumber the ones like Sarenne.-- Planetary Chaos Talk to me 17:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Isn't there some page in the WP:MOS somewhere that indicates we shouldn't have separate pages on e.g. centigram, microgram, nanogram etc? >Radiant< 12:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
This is related to Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#ISA resolved.
If you've been living under a rock, the dispute is about the International Symbol of Access. It's copyrighted and only allowed to be used under unfree terms (basically don't use it if the thing isn't accessible), so it has been replaced by a free alternative: .
There is an alternative: one of the recent updates to the unicode standard added it as a codepoint: ♿ To me, that shows up as a question mark, since I don't have a font that includes it. To those that do have such a font, it's the ISA.
I'm no lawyer, but I would assume that describing the ISA in two vector graphics formats - SVG and whatever the font uses - are equivalent. Thus distributing a font with the ISA in it is identical to distributing an SVG of the ISA. (If I'm wrong, I could legally distribute a font in which every character is a frame from a movie.)
Thus using the unicode codepoint is requiring the end user to download something unfree. (This seems similar to our use of OGG rather than MP3; MP3 players are de facto free as in beer, but not free as in freedom.) A distribution of Wikipedia on a DVD or other fixed media would have to include that unfree font to ensure that end users don't see question marks.
What do others think about this? -- NE2 06:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Tangent, what is the specific font that goes with this symbol? — Someguy0830 ( T | C) 01:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
One wonders if the makers or users of those fonts will get themselves sued at some point. ^^;; -- Kim Bruning 08:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Putting the free/non-free debate aside for a moment, the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion. Now that Template:Access icon has been changed to require the font (although some pages I see that transclude that template still display Image:Wheelchair.svg) and Help:Displaying the international wheelchair symbol has appeared, I had to say something. Unlike the need to download a font for language character support, or a plug-in for popular rich media applications (Flash, Java, QuickTime, etc.), this kind of download should not be required by users in order to experience Wikipedia. If Wikipedia (Wiki software) installs this functionality, then this may be a different story.
I could download a font and install it, but what about users in a public library, educational institution or workplace who have to ask the administrator to install the font and possibly go through bureaucracy to do so? I will not, and do not intend to download a font just to be able to display one symbol within the font. And ironically, although I know very little about Web accessibility, this action has got to make it harder for Wikipedia to be accessible to all users. Tinlinkin 05:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
While it is shooting ourselves in the foot, it's less so than the other alternatives that the more zealous policy editors were willing to consider. -- tjstrf talk 05:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion.
"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users." [2]
"and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users"
- this, I think, clearly rules out user boxes which are not identifying, marking or showing the way to buildings or facilities that are accessible and usable by people whose mobility is restricted. Dan Beale 18:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users."
Changing the subject slightly, I think it's better to represent the ISA as a Unicode character rather than using the replacement image. Here is a side-by-side comparison:
I know that most users won't already have a compatible font installed. Hopefully this will change in the future. At least with the font option, we are trying to change the world by encouraging font downloads rather than trying to change the world by using a nonstandard symbol instead of a standard one.
Obviously, neither solution is ideal. Either way we're effectively telling the ICTA that their copyright terms aren't good enough (though the nonstandard icon rubs that in their face). The ideal solution would be to just send the ISA as an image. However, I've taken another look at Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy and it seems to me that we're simply not allowed to send the ISA as an image outside of the article about the ISA. The Foundation's policy should be changed, but I doubt they will do so.
So, what do you all think? Which is better, the nonstandard symbol or the standard symbol that requires a font download? — Remember the dot ( talk) 16:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
title
attribute, which screen readers should pick up, now reads "Disability accessible. Click here if you are seeing a question mark or empty rectangle." The reason we don't want to use
is because it is just a drawing of a wheelchair and not a widely recognized symbol. —
Remember the dot (
talk) 17:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Asking people to download a font to display this symbol is ridiculous and serves no practical purpose. The distinction between hosting the symbol ourselves and displaying a symbol stored on the user's computer is utterly meaningless because there is no legal issue that prevents us from doing the former. We're merely skirting our own policy (via a silly technicality, no less). From a philosophical perspective, it makes no difference how the symbol reaches the user; either way, we're displaying non-free content. The idea that it isn't okay for us to supply it directly, but it is okay to do so by having people download it from someone else is mind-bogglingly absurd.
Given the fact that absolutely no legal issues are in play, all that matters is whether it's philosophically appropriate for us to use this symbol for its intended purpose. A strict interpretation of the Foundation principles indicates that it technically isn't, but there appears to be wide agreement that such a prohibition is not the intent of said policy (given the fact that the image's restrictions exist solely to prevent abuse and in no way limit its use by us or anyone else for its internationally recognized purpose). That's why a formal exception should be established at the Foundation level.
The apparent belief of some that we must follow policy to the letter but are welcome to ignore the spirit (by displaying non-free content in a manner that technically complies with the letter) is quite disheartening. —
David Levy 18:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks like NE2 just reverted the {{ access icon}} template back to his original Image:Wheelchair.svg. I thought this issue was pretty much resolved, but I guess not. I honestly don't see the difference between using a unicode character on the site vs. uploading a 20px version of the image. Either way, you're still hosting the copyrighted logo. – Dream out loud 18:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see my comments at Template talk:Access icon. — Remember the dot ( talk) 20:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Recently, myself and few other editors have instigated a cleanup of images and galleries in the Wikiproject Dog articles after reaching consensus that they needed monitoring. We agreed that per WP:NOT, galleries were causing more harm than aid as many articles constantly need policing against anons and users treating them as places to upload images of their pets willy-nilly. So far the cleanup has been successful, but it is still an uphill battle. I would like to propose adding a small sentence to WP:NOT specifically addressing this application of image policy to make dealing with this easier in the future. Maybe an addition toe images or personal web page section of of NOT such as, "Wikipedia is not a gallery for personal images of you, your family, friends, pets or possessions . All images contributed to articles must have clear encyclopedic merit." VanTucky 20:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
In the toolbox on the left, Upload file has been changed to Upload file (no wizard). What exactly was this for? I think an admin should change the name back (at least in the toolbox), as is doesn't look as good. Thanks! Reywas92 Talk 20:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Related: Risk disclaimer Manual of Style Biographies of living persons
Terms: Non Evident Risk – a risk that that has an established reality, but which within a given context is not apparent.
Current Position: Wikipedia has well established practice in how it approaches ‘risk’ and this is addressed through the use of the Disclaimer statements.
Need for Change: The matter of risk applies predominantly to articles dealing with some form of human activity and in most of those articles the risk that attaches to the activity discussed is entirely self evident, for example Rock Climbing will be understood by an reasonable person as an inherently risky activity. However there are some articles where the tone of the article and/or the absence of critical references, coupled with a received wisdom regarding the activity which endorses it as risk free, effectively disguising the risk even where medical, scientific or reasoned observational evidence suggests that risk exists.
Scope for Change: Any change would necessarily be limited to matters of established physical and psychological risk, as would be understood by as such by any reasonable person.
It seems unlikely that there would be any appetite amongst editors to change the way that Disclaimers are currently used, although it would not be overly problematic to introduce a more prominent display of the Risk Disclaimer for articles where critical references are lacking.
The obvious response is to say that relevant articles be improved by the inclusion of critical references, however without policy change this may not always be achievable as editors may be reluctant to include references which do not precisely link to the subject of the article. (see example)
A further and unequivocally desirable improvement also depends upon an improvement in reference discipline – that is to ensure references and links to organisations which are active in risk reduction in an appropriate field. Here we can return to the example of Rock Climbing where numerous sport bodies actively promote and discuss the reduction of risk in an inherently risky pursuit.
Example of a number of associated problem articles: [ [3]] [ [4]]
The core article is a Biography of a Living Person and although a number of critical references are included, none address an activity which is presented in positive terms within the core article and six associated articles – that is the practice of meditation, an activity which the subject of the Biography has a long history of promoting. Neither the core article, nor the associated articles use a wikilink to the Wikipedia article [ [5]], which itself does include an Adverse Effects section which clearly demonstrates potential risks in meditational practice. Clearly there are editors who have decided that there is some constraint upon linking to the Meditation article, demonstrating either that there is a need to challenge the thinking behind that execise of constraint, or otherwise if wikipedia rules require such constraint, then to re-examine the how the Risk Disclaimer is displayed within certain articles.
Nik Wright2 14:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Shopping Guide? for a discussion on this topic, including discussion about Category:Software comparisons. Carcharoth 12:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Items on a list or comparison chart do not have to be notable in themselves. The topic of the list or chart has to be notable. See WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. The topic of the list or chart has to be specific. See again WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. Where people get confused is when the list drifts over into subjective analysis and reviews. Then the list or comparison chart becomes advertising or negative advertising. Then it needs to be cleaned up to remove the advertising language, reviews, and hype. This chart, Comparison of wiki farms, went through 3 deletion attempts until all these issues were discussed and addressed. I urge people to read the last deletion discussion where it was finally decided to keep the chart. Jimbo Wales created Wikia.com, a wiki farm. I found it somewhat amusing that I had to explain to wikipedians that the topics of wiki software and wiki farms are notable. Not every wiki farm on the list is as notable as wikia.com, but lists and charts do not have to have all notable items on them. Otherwise, wikipedia lists and charts would become supporters of only the largest companies with the best advertising budgets. Freeware and open source software would be at a great disadvantage. See again WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. That guideline says "there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List." Many people probably have not heard of many of the people on Nixon's Enemies List. It is the list topic that is notable, not necessarily all those people listed. Concerning software lists and charts: They are not shopping charts or advertising, because the charts do not discuss the relative merits of one feature versus another, nor do they discuss how well any particular program implements any particular feature. It would be impossible for wikipedia to fairly do such subjective analysis anyway. The feature columns in many charts show the state of the art, and are thus encyclopedic in nature. A link back to the home page of an item on the list or chart is allowed just as any citation/reference link is allowed - to verify and update the info, features, etc.. Wikipedia has the necessary large numbers of WP:NPOV editors necessary to keep such charts and lists up to date, and free from advertising hype. For many of these lists and charts there is nowhere else on the web that one can find such an NPOV list or chart. Few companies would want to maintain lists on their websites where they favorably discuss their competition. Few magazines have enough time or editors for maintaining such lists or charts. -- Timeshifter 00:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
It is not currently apparent that there is a consistent policy regarding the use of images within infoboxes. Albums states 200px, Discography none, Taxoboxes 240px / 250px - even the template talk page can't make its mind up. This is inconsistent with policy guidelines, as covered in WP:IUP and WP:MOS. Insamuch as it might be inferred that these policies and guidelines apply to the main article space, the reasoning behind them applies just as much to the infobox space.
I propose that these guidelines are adopted as policy for infoboxes, and any image in an infobox must be thumbnailed. If the policy is already applicable, this must be applied to the infoboxes, and made explicit in their adoption and application.
Thumnailing images allows users to set their own preferences, and reduces (actual and potential) distracting clutter, not to mention issues concerning rendering in different browsers. Instances where the use of thumbnails causes unwanted whitespace requires address at the template design level. - Tiswas( t) 12:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Something like 10% of articles currently contain prominant templates questioning neutrality, style etc or requesting general clean-up. Most of these templates automatically point to the article talk page for further discussion. However, in my experience very frequently the template has been placed without the editor concerned making any comment on the talk page, at least not at more-or-less at the same time as placing the template. This strikes me as generally unhelpful since it is not obvious what the specific problem was; consequently the template is likely to remain after the original problem was fixed. Frequently, these templates without talk-page justification have been placed by experienced editors, so I imagine that the following proposal will be disputed, but it would be good to see some defence of the current practice.
Proposed Policy: Templates on article pages which refer to the talk page must be accompanied by a justification on the talk page by the editor who placed the template. If no such justification is given, the template should be deleted without discussion.
PaddyLeahy 10:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
A whole lot of policy discussion is predicated on the following phrase - "Wikipedia policies and guidelines are descriptive not prescriptive!". This sound good, egalitarian and wiki-like.
It is however false, and easily demonstrated to be false.
Take edit wars. Edit wars are a common occurrence on Wikipedia, so if our guidelines were descriptive not prescriptive, we'd allow for them right? But oddly we don't. We have strong recommendations against it, and we even have a very prescriptive policy called 3RR. This flies in the face of the "Wikipedia policies and guidelines are descriptive not prescriptive!" soundbite.
Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are consensus driven, and sometimes this means they are descriptive rather than prescriptive. But Not Always! Sometimes the consensus is that the status quo is wrong, and that we shouldn't be doing things they way they have been done. Or that the consensus identifies a common practice that has been self defeating, or a common practice that wasted effort, or a common practice that was just downright silly. And in those cases we come up with consensus driven proscriptive policy and guidelines.
So here's a new soundbite. "Consensus drives Wikipedia policy, not tradition." -- Barberio 12:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
(Please discuss this at Help_talk:Modifying_and_Creating_policy#Perscriptive_is_not_automaticaly_bad.)
A user has placed a Template:Rejected tag on this guideline page because "consensus is not present". However, it warns readers that it is "under development", and there has not been serious opposition to it on its talk page, except from one user whose opinion on it now is unclear. The truth is it does not at any point seem to have been submitted to the community for broader approval, and has become only infrequently maintained.
Please express your opinion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (national varieties of English)#Poll on whether Template:Rejected is appropriate. Joeldl 11:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The poll is there now, in case you've looked in the last half hour. Sorry. Joeldl 12:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Does every single damn article on Wikipedia really need a section discussing which episodes of "The Simpsons" feature the subject of that article? Does anyone really give a crap that Lisa Simpson doesn't know who Yahoo Serious is? I can understand some pop culture references - that Star Trek III mentions A Tale of Two Cities is marginally interesting since at least the book has parallels to the plot - but most Simpsons references are in passing and are trivial. Does WP:TRIVIA exclude these references in and of themselves? I'm not anti-Simpsons; love the show, but passing mention in a sitcom shouldn't be counted as a significant culture reference, should it? 68.146.200.201 22:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Most all of those references should be removed on sight. The problem is that Wikipedia is free and open to edit to everyone in the world, and a lot more people want to contribute than have anything worth contributing, so they put stupid trivia like that everywhere. Kill it. Delete. Remove it. If it comes back, tag it with Template:Fictionlist or Template:fictioncruft as appropriate. If it's in a trivia section tag the whole section with template:trivia. If there's too much of it and too many people putting it there, create a new article "[name of article] in popular culture" and cut out all the crap and paste it into the new page (and link to it on the main page) so at least it's quarantined. DreamGuy 09:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
If "there are a lot of bad editors", the solution is to make them into good editors, not to attempt to corral them and their bad content into separate articles. The way to deal with things is to address the bad content in the primary article. DreamGuy's idea has been repeatedly tried over the years, and has repeatedly failed. Uncle G 08:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
After the whole copyrighted screenshots from lists of... episodes, I wonder where we stand on the idea of galleries of fair use album covers on pages about the artist, or, even worse, on discography pages. Obviously, all but the most die-hard anti-fairuse protestors are going to support album covers on specific album pages, but the covers on these other pages serve no real purpose. I removed them all from Black Tape for a Blue Girl a short while ago, after seeking advice on the admins' IRC channel, but then I realised just how many of these there are. Flicking through our featured articles, I came across (despite the fact it isn't itself a featured article) AC/DC discography, which is just awful, but I noticed that none of the featured articles I checked contained these hideous galleries themselves. So, am I safe to assume that I can nuke such galleries on sight? What about discography articles, which will be SERIOUSLY cut back if the images are removed? Obviously, a few images inline when discussing that era of the band's history (such as they are used on our featured articles) looks great and works well- but these galleries are a violation of our policy, are they not? J Milburn 18:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I am gonna crack on with removing as many as I can. J Milburn 15:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I have opened a debate on the use of source code and other examples in Wikipedia articles. It seems that many pieces of example source code etc. currently in Wikipedia violate Wikipedia policy, so we need to either clarify or change the situation. Depending on the result of the discussion, this may result in a number of source code examples being summarily removed from computing articles!
Please reply there, not here, if you wish to contribute.— greenrd 10:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
While a laudable goal, there is no evidence that the participants at this proposal have the expertise to determine how to deal with suicidal people. Well intentioned meddling could have devastating consequences. I suggest that this proposal be rejected and further amateur intervention discouraged. If WP wants to deal with suicide counseling the policy should be determined at the highest level with Board approval. -- Kevin Murray 11:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
One issue I've wondered about, and have found no guidance for (though that's probably my failure to find it), is what is considered the best way to carry on an ongoing discussion via user talk pages. Should the entire discussion take place on the same page it started? Should it pingpong between pages, so that Alice comments on Bob's talk page, and Bob comments on Alice's? I've been a party to both types. adamrice 22:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Discussions should definitely all take place in one place, with pinging as necessary. I hate trying to decipher conversations where one person was talking on the other person's talk page and vice versa. It's a ridiculous way of trying to hold a conversation. -- Cyde Weys 16:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Please dont regard me as a meatsock, I am a regular viewer of wikipedia but since all my (admitedly small amount of) editing has been deleted it's difficult to keep contributing.
A user (DarkSaber2k) has been consitently deleting browser-based game articles as per the wikipedia Notabiltiy guidline. Their deleting of topics has been pretty much consistent with the Guildines. But should the guildlines endorse this?
The question is this - should wikipedia list games that are represented by thousands of people, because they are so popular?
Many, Darksaber2k included believe that is not what should be done and use that as the argument NOT to have these articles. My belief is that so long as these articles ensure they are not making up information it is perfectly fine to have them. Take my own personal interest in the game www.inselkampf.co.uk, and the german, czech and american version of. A massive amount of people play these games (7,104 on the american world 1 version alone)prizes are awarded by various fan-sites, accounts sell for upwards of £300 on ebay. It is a major site. But there are no newspaper articles, or magazine or stock market or books about it. Does this mean its not noteworthy? According to wikipedia's guidlines yes.
Wikipedia is here for us all to use and add to. I think this issue on where it is going deserves a debate, obviously some people disagree with me and i'd like to know why because i can't think of enough reasons.
EdPethick 19:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a web directory. Articles enjoyed by thousands of people are obviously being enjoyed without us linking to them, and as they can disappear at any time or be forgotten in months and especially years, only those items that meet standard notability requirements should be listed. See the website notability requirements if you are in doubt. Simple.
And based upon the section heading, if the browser-based game software is ON Wikipedia itself, obviously that should be deleted. DreamGuy 04:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sure that there are websites that specialize in reviewing browser based games. If the game is notable, then it may have ended up in their hands, and you can use their review as a third party reference to the article.-- Kylohk 17:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it okay under IAR to create a Wikipedia article which is a verbatim copy of an identical article appearing on a U.S. government website, i.e., a website in the public domain?
A recently added (May 5, 2007) Wikipedia article is a Wikified, word for word copy — both text and photos — of a 14-page article which appears on the FBI’s website at http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/spyring/spyring.htm, titled Federal Bureau of Investigation, Famous Cases: 33 Members of the Duquesne Spy Ring. The recent Wikipedia article that was copied from that FBI website is Duquesne Spy Ring. The Wikipedia article originally carried the {USGovernment} template, but did not cite the current FBI article as the article’’s source.
The word for word copying of the entire text and photos of a 14-page article in the public domain and inserting that copied article in Wikipedia seems to me (technically and ethically if not in fact) to be plagiarism, even though the work copied is in the public domain. If it is considered to be plagiarism, what can be done about effectively flagging readers that the copied article is a direct copy from another source? I think the text of the {USGovernment} template isn't adequate for this situation. K. Kellogg-Smith 02:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the standard text of the {USGovernment} template isn't adequate for this situation. Rather than say "This article incorporates text from ...", it would be much more accurate to state something along the lines of "The original version of this article was copied from ..." so that readers are clearly informed of the extent of the copying. To list the FBI website as a "source" clearly understates the copying. In the context of an article or paper, this would be akin to copying passages without showing them in quotes and merely listing the source in the bibliography. Almost everyone would consider that plagiarism. -- DS1953 talk 14:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
To be clear, the article always referenced the FBI as the source of substantial content and no claim to the contrary was ever made -- in the original document a URL was provided and the reference was: "Much of this article comes from FBI documents and photos released in 1985 under the freedom of information act and in the public domain."
What does seem to be controversial is the quantity of public information re-used in this Wikipedia article. However, it is not illegal, unethical, and even uncommon for a private entity to re-issue and re-sell public information, sometimes adding value and sometimes not (e.g., National Weather Service reports and forecasts). Adding the FBIs Duquesne Spy Ring content to Wikipedia enhances the visability of an interesting topic (not controversial is that many people find this article interesting) and it is in keeping with the FBI's mission of disemminating non-classified information as a public good. Paraphrasing is the wrong approach for public content that already stands well on its own (e.g., even though a substantial portion of Wikipedia's U.S. Constitution relies on the original source, nobody would suggest that a substantially paraphrased version for Wikipedia would be more appropriate). In my view, it is better to apply an Open Source standard, like Open source governance, to all public content. Ctatkinson 10:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
If I may add my two cents here: public domain material is free, so we can legally do whatever we want with it. Whatever we include on Wikipedia should be up to Wikipedia standards, though, and that includes sourcing. So, for instance, I think we should either be using the public domain document as a starting point or as a reference, but not both. If what's being copied is a document that isn't thoroughly sourced, we can use it but should make an effort to source all the statements in it. But I do think it would be bad practice to merely source a copy of X by citing X as a source: if we're doing that, we should be quoting from X rather than duplicating it. Mango juice talk 13:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The members of the Baseball Players Task Force (a part of WikiProject Baseball) have been discussing a set of naming conventions for baseball player bios. I have posted the draft copy here. Please feel free to discuss/propose changes at the talk page for the draft copy. Thanks, Caknuck 04:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion about abandoning or improving the Wikipedia:Spoiler warning guideline, with quite a few editors advocating abandoning it. In an effort to prevent the discussion from spreading to this or that separate island, I think it would be desirable to discuss in one place and reach resolution: that place is Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. Demi T/ C 22:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I have drafted a new, proposed guideline - Wikipedia:Notability (residences). I have done this because, simply, we don't have an existing notability guideline regulating this, and this is an attempt to help make decisions at WP:AFD and CAT:PROD. Cool Blue talk to me 21:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Requesting further input as to the addition of language prohibiting links to "attack sites" in NPA. A lengthy debate (punctuated by two periods of page-protection and several loci) centered around whether (or how) the NPA policy should explicitly discuss external links that are not themselves attacks but are made to sites characteristic of such attacks. Loci include: original discussion on WP:BADSITES (currently redirected to NPA), Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MONGO, Serpent's Choice and Bishonen's proposed simplified rewrite of NPA, which has met with approval from several editors, however, not all "involved editors" have been active participants in the discussion in recent weeks, and the recent removal of a link to Kelly Martin's blog added another dimension to the debate.— ACADEMY LEADER FOCUS! 18:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about the article Prem Rawat. The problem is that certain statements are so sensitive and controversial that there have been near-endless disputes about mis paraphrasing selective or out-of-context summarizing of scholarly sources. A solution was finally found in adding verbatim short quotes from the scholarly sources. However this has led to counter-quotes. It has been argued that war of opposing scholarly quotes has led to a bad article. But I do not see an alternative. see User_talk:Rumiton#How.3F The number of words per scholar have been counted to assess allegations of undue weight which I think shows how far the dispute has come. Talk:Prem_Rawat#The_point_of_Andries.27_proposal Any comments? Andries 18:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
One specific example: Ric_Byrne. Articles that provide references, but not in-text citations are hard to verify — especially when the references are not available online. How does one verify that these articles meet the requirements of WP:BLP? Sancho 14:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:FN is only a "how-to guideline" and WP:HARV has no status at all. Maybe someone should draft a policy proposal.-- Runcorn 21:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
After looking through some of my bot's edits and some of the edits of Staeckerbot and OrphanBot, I occasionally see a user frequently removing bot notifications for duplicate images, copyright issues on images, etc. For those that don't want notifications comming from a certain bot, or even all bots I think it would be nice if there was a standard exclusion code created to prevent unwanted notifications. For example to disallow bot FooBar from issuing notifications on their talk page they could post:
at the top of their talk page. To disallow all bots they could post something like:
I'm not suggesting this be an absolute rule though. Vandal bots or bots warning someone to stop some form of abuse wouldn't have to abide by this. It would only serve as a strong indicator that this user doesn't want any non-critical information, such as image deletion notifications, image copyright issues, duplicate image notifications, etc.., posted on their talk page. How does this idea sound? -- Android Mouse 23:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Just because they remove them doesn't mean they don't want the not in the first place. Once you've got the message, there's no reason for users to keep these notes around so they remove them immediately. I think it would be a bad idea to not leave these notes for users at all, though, because they notify people of important happenings relevant to them.
I created a new topic on the bot owners noticeboard. In order to avoid two discussions please place all new comments on that page. -- Android Mouse 17:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I ran across an interesting situation. This image was nominated for deletion as a copyright violation because it appeared with a copyright notice at another web site. But it was uploaded to WP two weeks earlier, apparently by the same person, and licensed under GNU copyleft. The GNU license requires the content to remain free forever, so the copyright notice actually violates copyleft.
If I read the GNU license correctly, it would take precedence whether it was invoked before or after copyright. If before, it must remain free forever, if after, then the copyright is relinquished. I wonder if people patrolling for copyright violations are checking for this? Dhaluza 01:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial is linked from the main neutral point-of-view policy and the page has existed for years now. I think it's about time we add a {{ policy}} or {{ guideline}} template or something similar. -- tariqabjotu 15:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Recently there's been a trend of tagging large numbers of articles for "cleanup" of various kind. This is done using templates, similar to this one:
There problem with these templates is:
These tags are, of course, valuable to editors who want to search for pages to work on, but this would be just as easy if the tags were placed on the talk pages instead.
I'd like to propose the following policy:
Template messages may be placed in articles only if:
Otherwise the message belongs on the talk page.
An exception should probably be made for "stub" messages, especially categorized ones, as those do provide some useful links to the reader.
Once this policy has become official, I'd like to let a robot move many of the cleanup messages onto talk pages where they belong.
-- PeR 06:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a wiki, so Readers and Editors are the same people. If some people don't quite understand that they can edit yet, this should be explained, and they should be encouraged to edit. And guess what, these templates do just that! :-) -- Kim Bruning 18:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The tag is important for mere readers, as it advises that the content may not be based in references or sources, wich means that there would be an important risk of it being inexact, mistaken, outdated, or even a big lie Perón 13:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Out of all the tags to put on an article I believe general ones like a cleanup tag should be removed. This doesn't really tell the readers what is sepcifically wrong, just that the article is subpar. If we are going to have these suggestion-type templates on the article then tags like infoboxrequested should be the first to be allowed, since they are very specific requests that can be handled relativly quickly compared to some of the others. -- Android Mouse 00:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This is related to Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#ISA resolved.
If you've been living under a rock, the dispute is about the International Symbol of Access. It's copyrighted and only allowed to be used under unfree terms (basically don't use it if the thing isn't accessible), so it has been replaced by a free alternative: .
There is an alternative: one of the recent updates to the unicode standard added it as a codepoint: ♿ To me, that shows up as a question mark, since I don't have a font that includes it. To those that do have such a font, it's the ISA.
I'm no lawyer, but I would assume that describing the ISA in two vector graphics formats - SVG and whatever the font uses - are equivalent. Thus distributing a font with the ISA in it is identical to distributing an SVG of the ISA. (If I'm wrong, I could legally distribute a font in which every character is a frame from a movie.)
Thus using the unicode codepoint is requiring the end user to download something unfree. (This seems similar to our use of OGG rather than MP3; MP3 players are de facto free as in beer, but not free as in freedom.) A distribution of Wikipedia on a DVD or other fixed media would have to include that unfree font to ensure that end users don't see question marks.
What do others think about this? -- NE2 06:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Tangent, what is the specific font that goes with this symbol? — Someguy0830 ( T | C) 01:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
One wonders if the makers or users of those fonts will get themselves sued at some point. ^^;; -- Kim Bruning 08:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Putting the free/non-free debate aside for a moment, the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion. Now that Template:Access icon has been changed to require the font (although some pages I see that transclude that template still display Image:Wheelchair.svg) and Help:Displaying the international wheelchair symbol has appeared, I had to say something. Unlike the need to download a font for language character support, or a plug-in for popular rich media applications (Flash, Java, QuickTime, etc.), this kind of download should not be required by users in order to experience Wikipedia. If Wikipedia (Wiki software) installs this functionality, then this may be a different story.
I could download a font and install it, but what about users in a public library, educational institution or workplace who have to ask the administrator to install the font and possibly go through bureaucracy to do so? I will not, and do not intend to download a font just to be able to display one symbol within the font. And ironically, although I know very little about Web accessibility, this action has got to make it harder for Wikipedia to be accessible to all users. Tinlinkin 05:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
While it is shooting ourselves in the foot, it's less so than the other alternatives that the more zealous policy editors were willing to consider. -- tjstrf talk 05:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion.
"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users." [7]
"and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users"
- this, I think, clearly rules out user boxes which are not identifying, marking or showing the way to buildings or facilities that are accessible and usable by people whose mobility is restricted. Dan Beale 18:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users."
Changing the subject slightly, I think it's better to represent the ISA as a Unicode character rather than using the replacement image. Here is a side-by-side comparison:
I know that most users won't already have a compatible font installed. Hopefully this will change in the future. At least with the font option, we are trying to change the world by encouraging font downloads rather than trying to change the world by using a nonstandard symbol instead of a standard one.
Obviously, neither solution is ideal. Either way we're effectively telling the ICTA that their copyright terms aren't good enough (though the nonstandard icon rubs that in their face). The ideal solution would be to just send the ISA as an image. However, I've taken another look at Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy and it seems to me that we're simply not allowed to send the ISA as an image outside of the article about the ISA. The Foundation's policy should be changed, but I doubt they will do so.
So, what do you all think? Which is better, the nonstandard symbol or the standard symbol that requires a font download? — Remember the dot ( talk) 16:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
title
attribute, which screen readers should pick up, now reads "Disability accessible. Click here if you are seeing a question mark or empty rectangle." The reason we don't want to use
is because it is just a drawing of a wheelchair and not a widely recognized symbol. —
Remember the dot (
talk) 17:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Asking people to download a font to display this symbol is ridiculous and serves no practical purpose. The distinction between hosting the symbol ourselves and displaying a symbol stored on the user's computer is utterly meaningless because there is no legal issue that prevents us from doing the former. We're merely skirting our own policy (via a silly technicality, no less). From a philosophical perspective, it makes no difference how the symbol reaches the user; either way, we're displaying non-free content. The idea that it isn't okay for us to supply it directly, but it is okay to do so by having people download it from someone else is mind-bogglingly absurd.
Given the fact that absolutely no legal issues are in play, all that matters is whether it's philosophically appropriate for us to use this symbol for its intended purpose. A strict interpretation of the Foundation principles indicates that it technically isn't, but there appears to be wide agreement that such a prohibition is not the intent of said policy (given the fact that the image's restrictions exist solely to prevent abuse and in no way limit its use by us or anyone else for its internationally recognized purpose). That's why a formal exception should be established at the Foundation level.
The apparent belief of some that we must follow policy to the letter but are welcome to ignore the spirit (by displaying non-free content in a manner that technically complies with the letter) is quite disheartening. —
David Levy 18:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks like NE2 just reverted the {{ access icon}} template back to his original Image:Wheelchair.svg. I thought this issue was pretty much resolved, but I guess not. I honestly don't see the difference between using a unicode character on the site vs. uploading a 20px version of the image. Either way, you're still hosting the copyrighted logo. – Dream out loud 18:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see my comments at Template talk:Access icon. — Remember the dot ( talk) 20:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The members of the Baseball Players Task Force (a part of WikiProject Baseball) have been discussing a set of naming conventions for baseball player bios. I have posted the draft copy here. Please feel free to discuss/propose changes at the talk page for the draft copy. Thanks, Caknuck 04:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Following discussion at Wikipedia talk:Overcategorization#Categorizing redirects, I've started a proposal at Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects and would like community input and help to edit the proposal and see if it is acceptable. Please discuss on its talk page, and suggest other places to get input. Thanks. Carcharoth 23:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
There is an active discussion regarding article structure and neutral point of view at WT:NPOV. Separate criticism sections would be an example of potential concern. There is currently a proposal to insert a clarification regarding this issue. Vassyana 06:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I logged on today and saw that the user
Nived 90 had been editing userboxes that were in my namespace. The userbox in question was
User:FastLizard4/Userboxing/Federation. Apparently, he changed a border style because it bothered him. Isn't this not something you are supposed to do, or is there somehing I don't know?
--
FastLizard4 (
Talk|
Contribs) 05:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC) -- I would also appreciate a response on my
Talk Page.
No page should be 100% owned by anyone, and WP:AGF Nived 90 had some good reason. Still, I'd always tell the user what I'd done and why.-- Runcorn 21:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Nived 90 was probably trying to be helpful :-) I'd thank them, then discuss how to get along. :-) -- Kim Bruning 21:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC) if you didn't actually like the change, still say thank you -it's the thought that counts :-) - and then discuss if maybe you can figure out a style that you both like
If I were to ask someone to repeatedly leave me alone and tell them that I do not welcome their contributions, do not feel that they are in good faith, am disturbed by their constant messages both on article pages in response to myself and on my own talk page, and trace my contributions to find new pages to bother me on, would they be justified under WP:EQ because they feel they have the right to be treated with "good faith" and that they are "helping" a user?
Or does this fall under WP:STALK and WP:EQ: "If you know you don't get along with someone, don't interact with them more than you need to. Unnecessary conflict distracts everyone from the task of making a good encyclopedia, and is just unpleasant. Actually following someone you dislike around Wikipedia is sometimes considered stalking, and is frowned on because it can be disruptive. If you don't get along with someone, try to become more friendly. If that doesn't help the situation then it is probably best to avoid them."
Also, if that person had contacts that have no involvment with you, had no reason to be going to the same pages, could not have happened onto the conversation via coincidence, and, according to Occam's Razor, probably came to the defense of someone they viewed as a friend, is this also contributing to the violation of the above rule? SanchiTachi 03:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This useful page seems partially forgotten, and has no clear status, I have labelled it with 'proposed'. See also my comments at relevant discussion page about how it ties to aspects of WP:ATT/FAQ.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The big warning at the bottom of edit pages recently changed to:
Do not copy text from other websites without a GFDL license. It will be deleted.
This is nonsense; it is directly contradicted by the sentence in small print just below:
Only public domain resources can be copied without permission—this does not include most web pages or images.
Seems like a revert to whatever was there before is appropriate.
It does contradict it, because PD websites aren't GFDL. We could even copy from CC-BY websites, because GFDL preserves attribution. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 01:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The text in question is MediaWiki:Edittools, I've changed it to "GFDL-compatible," because public domain and attribution only work too. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 02:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Could more people look at Wikipedia:Upload? It is a form that some people have installed on the sidebar with the aim of improving upon Special:Upload (original discussion at Mediawiki talk:Uploadtext). The talk page shows disputes over whether the page should be full protected, whether it should include an obvious link to Special:Upload (for people who know what they are doing and want to put up with all the new stuff), and how it should be linked from the sidebar. Dragons flight 21:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
If anyone can answer this question, or if you have knowledge related to the topic, please join in the discussion here. (Please do not respond here, let's keep the discussion in one place.) Thank you! Joie de Vivre 16:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Please read the discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 23#Crystal Gail Mangum. I've put forward a view of the application of the neutrality and no original research policies to biographies of living persons, and a suggestion that we can work on. There's discussion there and at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#The new section people are putting in, too. Please contribute to the discussions. Uncle G 13:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I've observed that the Baltimore Oriole article is definitely not written in US English, and, unless I'm rather mistaken, rather different from Canadian as well. The Manual of Style says that there will rarely be a compelling reason to change the spelling (or in this case, the vocabulary and usage) of the entire article. Is the North American nature of this bird sufficient to change its spelling, or should it remain as is? Nyttend 02:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter what type of English you use in the article, but the type must be consistent throughout.-- Kylohk 18:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The current situation with WP:BLP has gotten way out of control. The policy was initially intended to prevent a recurrence of something like the Seigenthaler controversy, by ensuring that biography articles were carefully watched and that unsourced gossip and rumor was not included. However, a few administrators have recently begun to interpret it to exclude anything, even if it was published in a reliable source, that might reflect badly on someone. Entire articles have been deleted and salted because they are somehow considered to be "inherent BLP violations," even though by the original understanding of BLP there is no such thing. This trend clearly violates a core Wikipedia policy, Neutral Point of View, as well as the basic principle that Wikipedia is not censored. Consequently, I think it's time that the unnecessary cruft be removed from the BLP policy, so that it can no longer be used as an excuse for high-handed, out-of-consensus administrative actions.
I propose the following wording, to constitute BLP in its entirety:
When biographical material on living people is involved, it is extremely important that all core Wikipedia content policies be followed carefully. This includes, but is not limited to, the following standards: Verifiability, Neutral point of view, No original research, and Reliable sources. |
Any unsourced or poorly sourced biographical material on living people may be removed without discussion. Such edits do not count towards the Three-revert rule. If a biographical article consists of nothing but material that violates Wikipedia standards, and there is no good version to revert to, then it should be deleted. At the discretion of other editors, a new, compliant version may later be created at the same title in accordance with Wikipedia policy. |
Things have gotten way out of control on this issue. We can't rely upon Arbcom to make policy; they clearly don't want to, and it isn't their job. This needs to be worked out within the community. And the feedback I have seen over the past week within the community makes it clear that a majority of editors do not like the expansive, overreaching manner in which BLP has been applied. *** Crotalus *** 22:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons. If you have any specific cases of overreaching, please post a notice in the BLP noticeboard. And if you have specific concerns about admin actions, please post a notice in the Admin noticeboard ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
An external link to a page describing a specific geocache site (see geocaching) has been added to Elsbridge. My gut feeling is that the link is not appropriate, and should be deleted, especially since the article is about a fictional location! However, I have had a look at WP:EL and I'm still uncertain.
The main reason for seeking advice here is that the External Link search tool currently brings up just over 100 links to www.geocaching.com, the most popular site, and I was wondering whether there was any kind of precedent/guidance/policy/advice for including or removing links to specific geocache locations?
The list includes a large number of user pages, and a number of links that are probably appropriate examples, neither of which are a problem. However, a significant number of instances occur on specific location pages, pointing at specific cache details, and it is these in particular that I am questioning. Should a WP location article feature a link to a geocache sited at that location?
(This query was previously posted, without attracting a response, on the VP(assistance) page.)
EdJogg 13:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The WP:NOR discussion page has significant discussion on the WP:SYN section of the synthesis policy. WP:SYN currently prohibits "synthesis that advances a position" but there is no coherent Wikipedia:Synthesis policy that defines "synthesis" or shows what is appropriate and inappropriate forms of synthesis. I have started an essay that highlights this dilemma, ( WP:BRAIN but I don't know where to draw the line on "good vs bad" synthesis. Please help me edit this essay to assist formation of a coherent synthesis policy. Peace, MPS 03:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
For some highly controversial articles that need Request-for-Meditation(RfM), recently it is suspected that certain users changed the article into a personal form, then immediately request WP:RFP to lock into the expected form before meditation and disputation resolution. The sysadmin who is (randomly) assigned to do the lockdown knows a little about the actual details, then almost surely performs the lockdown after seeing the editing war. This loophole does look like a vulnerable point of the wikipedia system. If not countermeasured, this could soon become a standard trick in editing wars. A countermeasure is not very complex, for example, a new wikipolicy WP:LockdownBeforeRFM could be defined to say that the disputed article must be locked before meditation and locked to an early stable version at least 3 days before the appearance of the disputation (even if this version could be the 1st one-liner version). This stable version can be easily identified by looking at the article's history page.
It seems that the countermeasure may effectively repair the loophole.-- Jiejunkong 09:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
In this sort of situation, whatever version is locked down, one party will cry foul.-- Runcorn 19:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Not speaking for the MedCom here, I feel that if a mediation cannot take place without the users involved being willing enough to disengage in order to help resolve the dispute, then mediation is doomed to failure. Mediation is based on good faith between those involved in the process, and if users are so unwilling to help to resolve the dispute by preventing themselves from editing the article, then in a lot of cases (not all) they will be unwilling to help resolve the dispute. Furthermore, full protection is horrible and pointless in a long term mediation situation, becuase it only serves to lock out uninvolved editors from making useful changes. Mart inp23 18:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the version which is initially locked, it seems appropriate for the arbitrator or an appointee to re-lock the most recent stable version. -- Kevin Murray 19:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Reply I am not asking for locking on the so-called "right" version (we know there is no such thing), but an earlier stable version before the potential attacker had the chance to interfere. Because traveling back in time is impossible, this effectively eliminates the attack I described at the beginning of this section.-- Jiejunkong 01:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board#Māori names about inclusion of Māori language names in infoboxes of New Zealand cities. Further input is welcome.- gadfium 20:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I tried to stay as far away as possible from userboxes as I can, but what is the current consensus/policy on userboxes like {{ User:EVula/Userboxes/User against Bush}}? Leave those in template-space, move to user-space, speedy-delete? — Ruud 19:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
A week ago, I removed a one-sentence ad from an article on a small town, New Hampshire, Ohio, and left a no-ads template message on the talk page of the IP that added the ad. This morning, I got a personal attack from the IP on my talk page and on the New Hampshire talk page. My question is this: what level of warning template should be left for the IP? Should it get a first-level, since this is its first personal attack? Or a second-level, since it's already had another warning recently, by me? Or a third-level, since the message was given twice in slightly different versions, both of which are very obviously bad faith ("Get an effing life...")? Regardless of which is correct, I'm not entirely sure what the WP:UTM guidelines want me to do. And by the way, I'd appreciate it if someone else left a warning for the IP. Nyttend 15:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This is regarding
Category:Non-free image size reduction request (i cant figure out how to internal link a category page, could someone drop the answer at my talk page)
I need to know if there is a specific size that the images should be smaller than, or can i just resize according to my ideas...
Cyberoid
X 13:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
There is now a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Logos#Captions for all Logos about a proposed policy that all (trademarked) logos on wikipedia have a caption. nadav ( talk) 07:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
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Hi. Some Wikipedians have been talking over at Wikipedia talk:Ignore all rules, and some of us have agreed that the Ignore all rules policy is often misunderstood (I note that there's one disagreement about it on this page now, a few sections up), and that it might benefit from some kind of explanation as to its intent. Edits to the text of the policy tend to get reverted, quickly and decisively, by various Wikipedians, so we've been talking about what we might do.
Someone made a list of a handful of essays that address the role that our "rules" play in this project, and what it means to ignore them, while generally following them. We've set up a talk page section collecting people's reactions to these essays, after which we'll decide whether to edit the policy, or what to do.
It would be great to get more input from the community in deciding how to reduce confusion about this important and controversial policy. Please feel free to drop by and share your thoughts. Cheers. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey there! We've been having some great discussion at Wikipedia:Proposed adminship. We've been talking about a way to make the RfA process easy, simple, and free of process wonkery. This has been a long time coming, especially given the megabytes of argument and discussion over what to do about RfA over at WT:RFA. Basically, this is a way to truly make adminship no big deal. As per the norm, I'm wondering what you fine folk might have to add to the policy or if you have any comments, questions, or suggestions. Thanks for reading and I appreciate you all taking time out of your day to check this out! gaillimh Conas tá tú? 21:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
A small number of editors want to tag Help:Creating policy as 'historical" or "rejected". IMO this page is a perfectly valid guideline, and very good advice on creating new policy and process pages in a civil and orderly way. I urge more people to discuss the matter at Help talk:Creating policy, so that a broader consensus on whether to improve, abandon, or endorse the current state of this page can develop DES (talk) 18:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
This guideline does not have consensus. Of 80 documented attempts to use it, only 8 are listed as successful. But wait, 6 of those cases had intervention by Jimbo Wales. That means we have maybe only 2 successful cases without intervention. Of those 2 remaining, I have doubts if the process used for at least one of those ( proposed deletion) is accurately represented as having using this particular proposal process.
That's enough for me to start wondering about the last example as well.
We can surmise that this guideline has been overwhelmingly rejected in the one location where consensus really counts and works: in the field. We shouldn't be telling people to use it at all.
-- Kim Bruning 18:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have created a page in my userspace at User:ESkog/Rationales, which I plan to use in edit summaries, attempting to clarify the proper use of fair-use rationales, which seems to confuse many users. Please feel free to edit, and add to the "good examples" sections. ( ESkog)( Talk) 15:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed changes to the varieties of English guideline that do not change their spirit but which I think would be improvements. Please comment at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Proposal for changes to the "National varieties of English" section. Joeldl 09:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOR and WP:NPOV are the most "used" policies in disputes, and deletion reasons. They both lead, in fact, to Wikipedia:Verifiability. WP:NOR and WP:NPOV are nowadays used to ban opposite opinions, by simply chosing one of 'em, and stamping on that nasty opinion, so in fact, they're (these policies) turned inside out, no matter, that those opinions are (mainly) verifiable, or even in some times, the "truth", itself, aka. the academic viewpoint. And this is where WP:NPOV comes in: As far as I see, in minor or marginal/unpopular topics (for ex. Taner Akcam) the NPOV is what came first, not what is neutral or real. To be clear, Akcam was described as a terrorist in his Wikipedia bio, while in fact, he's not, even so, he's a scientist, who's acknowledgeing and researching the armenian holocaust, a thing, Turkey still not aknowledge, and Turkish nationalists would kill anybody, who acknowledges it. See for example Hrant Dink. More on this at Wikipedia:Village pump (news)#Akcam vs. Wikipedia: POV in articles, including The Independent's more detailed article about the case. How seriously and how well are these, (otherwise good) policies taken? -- 91.120.98.165 12:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Or simply remember/reread Siegenthaler controversy, the most famous of such. -- 91.120.98.165 12:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Very? No. By ""NPOV is what came first, not what is neutral or real" I mean that the first opinion, wich has been written here (on enwiki) is declared NPOV, no matter how huge POV it is. This is occuring in marginal/unpopular topics, like history or politics of small (aka relatively unknown) countries. -- 91.120.82.69 23:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about the article Prem Rawat. The problem is that certain statements are so sensitive and controversial that there have been near-endless disputes about mis paraphrasing selective or out-of-context summarizing of scholarly sources. A solution was finally found in adding verbatim short quotes from the scholarly sources. However this has led to counter-quotes. It has been argued that war of opposing scholarly quotes has led to a bad article. But I do not see an alternative. see User_talk:Rumiton#How.3F The number of words per scholar have been counted to assess allegations of undue weight which I think shows how far the dispute has come. Talk:Prem_Rawat#The_point_of_Andries.27_proposal Any comments? Andries 18:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The word " Gun fu" is a neologism or protologism (search google to check this, a few slang mentions of it but nothing "formal" or "widespread"). But the article called Gun fu is not about the word as such, its about a certain style of gunplay seen in films. So the article subject is notable, but its title is a neologism.
The article throughout uses the term gun fu just as a quick shorthand to refer to this style, which would otherwise have to be referred to with a long unwieldy name, such as "John Woo-inspired close-quarters gunplay in film" or somesuch.
What should be done in a case like this? Should the word gun fu be enclosed in quote marks throughout the article? Should the article be renamed? Should the words "gun fu" be replaced with something else throughout the article?
Thoughts here please Talk:Gun fu#quotes around gun fu. 86.27.73.208 17:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it really acceptable to include categories for wikipedians in general category? E.g. Category:Global warming skeptics. Isn't this kind of against our no self references policy? Nil Einne 08:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Way back in July 2005, a guideline was inserted into Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) on a 20-6-2 vote (the latter 2 arguing "No more stupid votes"). This was apparently done without consulting the editors of articles which would be affected by this change. As a result, discussions have flared up several times since then, with Manual of Style regulars generally favoring the status quo, and editors of the articles in question generally opposing the guideline. Recent discussion clearly shows that the guideline has no consensus at this point in time. I have stated on the talk page that I will remove it on the grounds of lack of consensus, and have been told in return that I can't do that, that a lack of consensus always defaults to the status quo. This seems wrong to me. A tiny handful of editors can make "consensus" on one corner of Wikipedia, and then enforce it everywhere and demand that others form a consensus against them before it stops? I do not believe the Manual of Style was ever intended for such purposes. Which interpretation of consensus policy is correct? Do MoS guidelines need consensus to remove, or is the lack of any consensus for keeping them enough to deprecate them? *** Crotalus *** 21:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Consensus is people agreeing to do stuff. If there are people in the field doing one thing, and there are some letters elsewhere saying another thing, then the consensus is with the people and the doing, not so much with the letters and the saying. :-) -- Kim Bruning 02:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems like more work perhaps, but it's actually less work than dealing with the static generated by being stubborn. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
As for it being "for one person to decide that a consensus never existed", I don't get the impression we're dealing with just one person - am I wrong? If someone is disagreeing with the guideline, then whoever is "enforcing" the guideline should at least stop for long enough to point them to the appropriate talk page, and they'll either see that there really is broad agreement, or we'll all see that there isn't. I don't see what the hurry is to get the guideline enforced without pausing to talk about it. Communication is work, and it's worth it. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
These are not rigid laws: they are principles that many editors have found to work well in most circumstances, but which should be applied with flexibility. In this vein, editors should strive to have their articles follow these guidelines. While quality of writing may be more important than presentation and formatting, these elements also have their place in clear and unbiased delivery of information. One of the joys of wiki editing is that Wikipedia does not demand perfection. Wikipedia does not require writers to follow all or any of these rules, but their efforts will be more appreciated when they are guided by them.
The guideline you're trying to "enforce" must not have a very strong consensus behind it, or you wouldn't be running into so much opposition. Your job, and the job of those opposing you, is to stop editing, talk on the guideline talk page, and determine what the consensus is now. It doesn't matter what it was two years ago; it matters what it is now. Since it's now in dispute, your editing to "enforce" it is inappropriate.
It's this simple: Once you know there's a conflict, stop and talk. We're not in a hurry, but we are under an obligation to be excellent to each other always. That means listening, and trying to respond to current consensus as you detect it. Consensus is not detected by reading a guideline, but by listening to editors. If there's no consensus, then editing binary prefixes in either direction is inappropriate, just like we don't edit "BC" vs "BCE" or "color" vs "colour". - GTBacchus( talk) 19:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
As for consistency being more important than not edit warring, that makes no sense - allow me to explain why. We work towards consensus because this is a wiki. It's inherent in the software that we can't just go around enforcing our ideas against significant disagreement. Anyone can edit, and if you go against a lot of people, they'll edit it back anyway. Since you can't control them, you have to discuss. It's not a rule so much as a law of nature: if you don't swim, you're gonna sink. The name of the game here is consensus, and we have no choice about that.
It's not about "fear" of binding rules, it's about how we work together as human beings and get something done. If you think Wikipedia needs more binding rules, then I think you can find other online encyclopedias that work that way. They're not nearly as successful as Wikipedia, which is why I think the "No binding rules" philosophy is actually pretty effective. Edit wars are caused by edit warriors, and they're always wrong.
Edit warring is bad because it makes article histories and "recent changes" less useful, it distracts editors from getting productive work done, and it encourages others to edit war, over style, content, and everything else, leading to a Wikipedia that's bogged down in back-and-forth, "is not!"/"is too!" arguments. The only civilized solution, the only solution that works on a wiki, is for everyone to work for consensus. Yes, that means stopping and talking. Yes, that makes things take longer. No, we're not in a hurry. No, it doens't make guidelines "worthless"; it makes them more responsive to the community and better indicators of consensus. Yes, we all learn more and respect each other more in the process. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Policies and guidelines should reflect the consensus, then we should always assume than they reflect consensus until they are actually changed. We should "stop and talk" only if it doesn't concern a guideline or a policy. We don't "stop and talk" when dealing with vandalism. We shouldn't "stop and talk" when dealing with style, we should talk... and stop only if there's a new strong consensus or if there's no guideline. IMHO that's a pragmatic application of the "consensus spirit". Sarenne 10:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The whole point of a Manual of Style is to suggest a uniform style for the entire project. It doesn't "enforce" anything.
Consensus can always change, and "consensus to change a guideline" or "consensus to demote a guideline" is a bogus idea. Policies and guidelines don't become "stuck" after a small number of people have agreed on them. As soon as editors stop agreeing on something, it is no longer binding. — Omegatron 14:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Message to GTBacchus, there are alot more then just five of us as a matter of fact we (user who think MB is more exceptable then MiB) greatly outnumber the ones like Sarenne.-- Planetary Chaos Talk to me 17:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Isn't there some page in the WP:MOS somewhere that indicates we shouldn't have separate pages on e.g. centigram, microgram, nanogram etc? >Radiant< 12:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
This is related to Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#ISA resolved.
If you've been living under a rock, the dispute is about the International Symbol of Access. It's copyrighted and only allowed to be used under unfree terms (basically don't use it if the thing isn't accessible), so it has been replaced by a free alternative: .
There is an alternative: one of the recent updates to the unicode standard added it as a codepoint: ♿ To me, that shows up as a question mark, since I don't have a font that includes it. To those that do have such a font, it's the ISA.
I'm no lawyer, but I would assume that describing the ISA in two vector graphics formats - SVG and whatever the font uses - are equivalent. Thus distributing a font with the ISA in it is identical to distributing an SVG of the ISA. (If I'm wrong, I could legally distribute a font in which every character is a frame from a movie.)
Thus using the unicode codepoint is requiring the end user to download something unfree. (This seems similar to our use of OGG rather than MP3; MP3 players are de facto free as in beer, but not free as in freedom.) A distribution of Wikipedia on a DVD or other fixed media would have to include that unfree font to ensure that end users don't see question marks.
What do others think about this? -- NE2 06:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Tangent, what is the specific font that goes with this symbol? — Someguy0830 ( T | C) 01:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
One wonders if the makers or users of those fonts will get themselves sued at some point. ^^;; -- Kim Bruning 08:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Putting the free/non-free debate aside for a moment, the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion. Now that Template:Access icon has been changed to require the font (although some pages I see that transclude that template still display Image:Wheelchair.svg) and Help:Displaying the international wheelchair symbol has appeared, I had to say something. Unlike the need to download a font for language character support, or a plug-in for popular rich media applications (Flash, Java, QuickTime, etc.), this kind of download should not be required by users in order to experience Wikipedia. If Wikipedia (Wiki software) installs this functionality, then this may be a different story.
I could download a font and install it, but what about users in a public library, educational institution or workplace who have to ask the administrator to install the font and possibly go through bureaucracy to do so? I will not, and do not intend to download a font just to be able to display one symbol within the font. And ironically, although I know very little about Web accessibility, this action has got to make it harder for Wikipedia to be accessible to all users. Tinlinkin 05:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
While it is shooting ourselves in the foot, it's less so than the other alternatives that the more zealous policy editors were willing to consider. -- tjstrf talk 05:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion.
"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users." [2]
"and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users"
- this, I think, clearly rules out user boxes which are not identifying, marking or showing the way to buildings or facilities that are accessible and usable by people whose mobility is restricted. Dan Beale 18:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users."
Changing the subject slightly, I think it's better to represent the ISA as a Unicode character rather than using the replacement image. Here is a side-by-side comparison:
I know that most users won't already have a compatible font installed. Hopefully this will change in the future. At least with the font option, we are trying to change the world by encouraging font downloads rather than trying to change the world by using a nonstandard symbol instead of a standard one.
Obviously, neither solution is ideal. Either way we're effectively telling the ICTA that their copyright terms aren't good enough (though the nonstandard icon rubs that in their face). The ideal solution would be to just send the ISA as an image. However, I've taken another look at Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy and it seems to me that we're simply not allowed to send the ISA as an image outside of the article about the ISA. The Foundation's policy should be changed, but I doubt they will do so.
So, what do you all think? Which is better, the nonstandard symbol or the standard symbol that requires a font download? — Remember the dot ( talk) 16:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
title
attribute, which screen readers should pick up, now reads "Disability accessible. Click here if you are seeing a question mark or empty rectangle." The reason we don't want to use
is because it is just a drawing of a wheelchair and not a widely recognized symbol. —
Remember the dot (
talk) 17:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Asking people to download a font to display this symbol is ridiculous and serves no practical purpose. The distinction between hosting the symbol ourselves and displaying a symbol stored on the user's computer is utterly meaningless because there is no legal issue that prevents us from doing the former. We're merely skirting our own policy (via a silly technicality, no less). From a philosophical perspective, it makes no difference how the symbol reaches the user; either way, we're displaying non-free content. The idea that it isn't okay for us to supply it directly, but it is okay to do so by having people download it from someone else is mind-bogglingly absurd.
Given the fact that absolutely no legal issues are in play, all that matters is whether it's philosophically appropriate for us to use this symbol for its intended purpose. A strict interpretation of the Foundation principles indicates that it technically isn't, but there appears to be wide agreement that such a prohibition is not the intent of said policy (given the fact that the image's restrictions exist solely to prevent abuse and in no way limit its use by us or anyone else for its internationally recognized purpose). That's why a formal exception should be established at the Foundation level.
The apparent belief of some that we must follow policy to the letter but are welcome to ignore the spirit (by displaying non-free content in a manner that technically complies with the letter) is quite disheartening. —
David Levy 18:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks like NE2 just reverted the {{ access icon}} template back to his original Image:Wheelchair.svg. I thought this issue was pretty much resolved, but I guess not. I honestly don't see the difference between using a unicode character on the site vs. uploading a 20px version of the image. Either way, you're still hosting the copyrighted logo. – Dream out loud 18:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see my comments at Template talk:Access icon. — Remember the dot ( talk) 20:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Recently, myself and few other editors have instigated a cleanup of images and galleries in the Wikiproject Dog articles after reaching consensus that they needed monitoring. We agreed that per WP:NOT, galleries were causing more harm than aid as many articles constantly need policing against anons and users treating them as places to upload images of their pets willy-nilly. So far the cleanup has been successful, but it is still an uphill battle. I would like to propose adding a small sentence to WP:NOT specifically addressing this application of image policy to make dealing with this easier in the future. Maybe an addition toe images or personal web page section of of NOT such as, "Wikipedia is not a gallery for personal images of you, your family, friends, pets or possessions . All images contributed to articles must have clear encyclopedic merit." VanTucky 20:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
In the toolbox on the left, Upload file has been changed to Upload file (no wizard). What exactly was this for? I think an admin should change the name back (at least in the toolbox), as is doesn't look as good. Thanks! Reywas92 Talk 20:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Related: Risk disclaimer Manual of Style Biographies of living persons
Terms: Non Evident Risk – a risk that that has an established reality, but which within a given context is not apparent.
Current Position: Wikipedia has well established practice in how it approaches ‘risk’ and this is addressed through the use of the Disclaimer statements.
Need for Change: The matter of risk applies predominantly to articles dealing with some form of human activity and in most of those articles the risk that attaches to the activity discussed is entirely self evident, for example Rock Climbing will be understood by an reasonable person as an inherently risky activity. However there are some articles where the tone of the article and/or the absence of critical references, coupled with a received wisdom regarding the activity which endorses it as risk free, effectively disguising the risk even where medical, scientific or reasoned observational evidence suggests that risk exists.
Scope for Change: Any change would necessarily be limited to matters of established physical and psychological risk, as would be understood by as such by any reasonable person.
It seems unlikely that there would be any appetite amongst editors to change the way that Disclaimers are currently used, although it would not be overly problematic to introduce a more prominent display of the Risk Disclaimer for articles where critical references are lacking.
The obvious response is to say that relevant articles be improved by the inclusion of critical references, however without policy change this may not always be achievable as editors may be reluctant to include references which do not precisely link to the subject of the article. (see example)
A further and unequivocally desirable improvement also depends upon an improvement in reference discipline – that is to ensure references and links to organisations which are active in risk reduction in an appropriate field. Here we can return to the example of Rock Climbing where numerous sport bodies actively promote and discuss the reduction of risk in an inherently risky pursuit.
Example of a number of associated problem articles: [ [3]] [ [4]]
The core article is a Biography of a Living Person and although a number of critical references are included, none address an activity which is presented in positive terms within the core article and six associated articles – that is the practice of meditation, an activity which the subject of the Biography has a long history of promoting. Neither the core article, nor the associated articles use a wikilink to the Wikipedia article [ [5]], which itself does include an Adverse Effects section which clearly demonstrates potential risks in meditational practice. Clearly there are editors who have decided that there is some constraint upon linking to the Meditation article, demonstrating either that there is a need to challenge the thinking behind that execise of constraint, or otherwise if wikipedia rules require such constraint, then to re-examine the how the Risk Disclaimer is displayed within certain articles.
Nik Wright2 14:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Shopping Guide? for a discussion on this topic, including discussion about Category:Software comparisons. Carcharoth 12:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Items on a list or comparison chart do not have to be notable in themselves. The topic of the list or chart has to be notable. See WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. The topic of the list or chart has to be specific. See again WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. Where people get confused is when the list drifts over into subjective analysis and reviews. Then the list or comparison chart becomes advertising or negative advertising. Then it needs to be cleaned up to remove the advertising language, reviews, and hype. This chart, Comparison of wiki farms, went through 3 deletion attempts until all these issues were discussed and addressed. I urge people to read the last deletion discussion where it was finally decided to keep the chart. Jimbo Wales created Wikia.com, a wiki farm. I found it somewhat amusing that I had to explain to wikipedians that the topics of wiki software and wiki farms are notable. Not every wiki farm on the list is as notable as wikia.com, but lists and charts do not have to have all notable items on them. Otherwise, wikipedia lists and charts would become supporters of only the largest companies with the best advertising budgets. Freeware and open source software would be at a great disadvantage. See again WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. That guideline says "there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List." Many people probably have not heard of many of the people on Nixon's Enemies List. It is the list topic that is notable, not necessarily all those people listed. Concerning software lists and charts: They are not shopping charts or advertising, because the charts do not discuss the relative merits of one feature versus another, nor do they discuss how well any particular program implements any particular feature. It would be impossible for wikipedia to fairly do such subjective analysis anyway. The feature columns in many charts show the state of the art, and are thus encyclopedic in nature. A link back to the home page of an item on the list or chart is allowed just as any citation/reference link is allowed - to verify and update the info, features, etc.. Wikipedia has the necessary large numbers of WP:NPOV editors necessary to keep such charts and lists up to date, and free from advertising hype. For many of these lists and charts there is nowhere else on the web that one can find such an NPOV list or chart. Few companies would want to maintain lists on their websites where they favorably discuss their competition. Few magazines have enough time or editors for maintaining such lists or charts. -- Timeshifter 00:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
It is not currently apparent that there is a consistent policy regarding the use of images within infoboxes. Albums states 200px, Discography none, Taxoboxes 240px / 250px - even the template talk page can't make its mind up. This is inconsistent with policy guidelines, as covered in WP:IUP and WP:MOS. Insamuch as it might be inferred that these policies and guidelines apply to the main article space, the reasoning behind them applies just as much to the infobox space.
I propose that these guidelines are adopted as policy for infoboxes, and any image in an infobox must be thumbnailed. If the policy is already applicable, this must be applied to the infoboxes, and made explicit in their adoption and application.
Thumnailing images allows users to set their own preferences, and reduces (actual and potential) distracting clutter, not to mention issues concerning rendering in different browsers. Instances where the use of thumbnails causes unwanted whitespace requires address at the template design level. - Tiswas( t) 12:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Something like 10% of articles currently contain prominant templates questioning neutrality, style etc or requesting general clean-up. Most of these templates automatically point to the article talk page for further discussion. However, in my experience very frequently the template has been placed without the editor concerned making any comment on the talk page, at least not at more-or-less at the same time as placing the template. This strikes me as generally unhelpful since it is not obvious what the specific problem was; consequently the template is likely to remain after the original problem was fixed. Frequently, these templates without talk-page justification have been placed by experienced editors, so I imagine that the following proposal will be disputed, but it would be good to see some defence of the current practice.
Proposed Policy: Templates on article pages which refer to the talk page must be accompanied by a justification on the talk page by the editor who placed the template. If no such justification is given, the template should be deleted without discussion.
PaddyLeahy 10:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
A whole lot of policy discussion is predicated on the following phrase - "Wikipedia policies and guidelines are descriptive not prescriptive!". This sound good, egalitarian and wiki-like.
It is however false, and easily demonstrated to be false.
Take edit wars. Edit wars are a common occurrence on Wikipedia, so if our guidelines were descriptive not prescriptive, we'd allow for them right? But oddly we don't. We have strong recommendations against it, and we even have a very prescriptive policy called 3RR. This flies in the face of the "Wikipedia policies and guidelines are descriptive not prescriptive!" soundbite.
Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are consensus driven, and sometimes this means they are descriptive rather than prescriptive. But Not Always! Sometimes the consensus is that the status quo is wrong, and that we shouldn't be doing things they way they have been done. Or that the consensus identifies a common practice that has been self defeating, or a common practice that wasted effort, or a common practice that was just downright silly. And in those cases we come up with consensus driven proscriptive policy and guidelines.
So here's a new soundbite. "Consensus drives Wikipedia policy, not tradition." -- Barberio 12:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
(Please discuss this at Help_talk:Modifying_and_Creating_policy#Perscriptive_is_not_automaticaly_bad.)
A user has placed a Template:Rejected tag on this guideline page because "consensus is not present". However, it warns readers that it is "under development", and there has not been serious opposition to it on its talk page, except from one user whose opinion on it now is unclear. The truth is it does not at any point seem to have been submitted to the community for broader approval, and has become only infrequently maintained.
Please express your opinion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (national varieties of English)#Poll on whether Template:Rejected is appropriate. Joeldl 11:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The poll is there now, in case you've looked in the last half hour. Sorry. Joeldl 12:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Does every single damn article on Wikipedia really need a section discussing which episodes of "The Simpsons" feature the subject of that article? Does anyone really give a crap that Lisa Simpson doesn't know who Yahoo Serious is? I can understand some pop culture references - that Star Trek III mentions A Tale of Two Cities is marginally interesting since at least the book has parallels to the plot - but most Simpsons references are in passing and are trivial. Does WP:TRIVIA exclude these references in and of themselves? I'm not anti-Simpsons; love the show, but passing mention in a sitcom shouldn't be counted as a significant culture reference, should it? 68.146.200.201 22:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Most all of those references should be removed on sight. The problem is that Wikipedia is free and open to edit to everyone in the world, and a lot more people want to contribute than have anything worth contributing, so they put stupid trivia like that everywhere. Kill it. Delete. Remove it. If it comes back, tag it with Template:Fictionlist or Template:fictioncruft as appropriate. If it's in a trivia section tag the whole section with template:trivia. If there's too much of it and too many people putting it there, create a new article "[name of article] in popular culture" and cut out all the crap and paste it into the new page (and link to it on the main page) so at least it's quarantined. DreamGuy 09:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
If "there are a lot of bad editors", the solution is to make them into good editors, not to attempt to corral them and their bad content into separate articles. The way to deal with things is to address the bad content in the primary article. DreamGuy's idea has been repeatedly tried over the years, and has repeatedly failed. Uncle G 08:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
After the whole copyrighted screenshots from lists of... episodes, I wonder where we stand on the idea of galleries of fair use album covers on pages about the artist, or, even worse, on discography pages. Obviously, all but the most die-hard anti-fairuse protestors are going to support album covers on specific album pages, but the covers on these other pages serve no real purpose. I removed them all from Black Tape for a Blue Girl a short while ago, after seeking advice on the admins' IRC channel, but then I realised just how many of these there are. Flicking through our featured articles, I came across (despite the fact it isn't itself a featured article) AC/DC discography, which is just awful, but I noticed that none of the featured articles I checked contained these hideous galleries themselves. So, am I safe to assume that I can nuke such galleries on sight? What about discography articles, which will be SERIOUSLY cut back if the images are removed? Obviously, a few images inline when discussing that era of the band's history (such as they are used on our featured articles) looks great and works well- but these galleries are a violation of our policy, are they not? J Milburn 18:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I am gonna crack on with removing as many as I can. J Milburn 15:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I have opened a debate on the use of source code and other examples in Wikipedia articles. It seems that many pieces of example source code etc. currently in Wikipedia violate Wikipedia policy, so we need to either clarify or change the situation. Depending on the result of the discussion, this may result in a number of source code examples being summarily removed from computing articles!
Please reply there, not here, if you wish to contribute.— greenrd 10:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
While a laudable goal, there is no evidence that the participants at this proposal have the expertise to determine how to deal with suicidal people. Well intentioned meddling could have devastating consequences. I suggest that this proposal be rejected and further amateur intervention discouraged. If WP wants to deal with suicide counseling the policy should be determined at the highest level with Board approval. -- Kevin Murray 11:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
One issue I've wondered about, and have found no guidance for (though that's probably my failure to find it), is what is considered the best way to carry on an ongoing discussion via user talk pages. Should the entire discussion take place on the same page it started? Should it pingpong between pages, so that Alice comments on Bob's talk page, and Bob comments on Alice's? I've been a party to both types. adamrice 22:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Discussions should definitely all take place in one place, with pinging as necessary. I hate trying to decipher conversations where one person was talking on the other person's talk page and vice versa. It's a ridiculous way of trying to hold a conversation. -- Cyde Weys 16:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Please dont regard me as a meatsock, I am a regular viewer of wikipedia but since all my (admitedly small amount of) editing has been deleted it's difficult to keep contributing.
A user (DarkSaber2k) has been consitently deleting browser-based game articles as per the wikipedia Notabiltiy guidline. Their deleting of topics has been pretty much consistent with the Guildines. But should the guildlines endorse this?
The question is this - should wikipedia list games that are represented by thousands of people, because they are so popular?
Many, Darksaber2k included believe that is not what should be done and use that as the argument NOT to have these articles. My belief is that so long as these articles ensure they are not making up information it is perfectly fine to have them. Take my own personal interest in the game www.inselkampf.co.uk, and the german, czech and american version of. A massive amount of people play these games (7,104 on the american world 1 version alone)prizes are awarded by various fan-sites, accounts sell for upwards of £300 on ebay. It is a major site. But there are no newspaper articles, or magazine or stock market or books about it. Does this mean its not noteworthy? According to wikipedia's guidlines yes.
Wikipedia is here for us all to use and add to. I think this issue on where it is going deserves a debate, obviously some people disagree with me and i'd like to know why because i can't think of enough reasons.
EdPethick 19:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a web directory. Articles enjoyed by thousands of people are obviously being enjoyed without us linking to them, and as they can disappear at any time or be forgotten in months and especially years, only those items that meet standard notability requirements should be listed. See the website notability requirements if you are in doubt. Simple.
And based upon the section heading, if the browser-based game software is ON Wikipedia itself, obviously that should be deleted. DreamGuy 04:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sure that there are websites that specialize in reviewing browser based games. If the game is notable, then it may have ended up in their hands, and you can use their review as a third party reference to the article.-- Kylohk 17:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it okay under IAR to create a Wikipedia article which is a verbatim copy of an identical article appearing on a U.S. government website, i.e., a website in the public domain?
A recently added (May 5, 2007) Wikipedia article is a Wikified, word for word copy — both text and photos — of a 14-page article which appears on the FBI’s website at http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/spyring/spyring.htm, titled Federal Bureau of Investigation, Famous Cases: 33 Members of the Duquesne Spy Ring. The recent Wikipedia article that was copied from that FBI website is Duquesne Spy Ring. The Wikipedia article originally carried the {USGovernment} template, but did not cite the current FBI article as the article’’s source.
The word for word copying of the entire text and photos of a 14-page article in the public domain and inserting that copied article in Wikipedia seems to me (technically and ethically if not in fact) to be plagiarism, even though the work copied is in the public domain. If it is considered to be plagiarism, what can be done about effectively flagging readers that the copied article is a direct copy from another source? I think the text of the {USGovernment} template isn't adequate for this situation. K. Kellogg-Smith 02:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the standard text of the {USGovernment} template isn't adequate for this situation. Rather than say "This article incorporates text from ...", it would be much more accurate to state something along the lines of "The original version of this article was copied from ..." so that readers are clearly informed of the extent of the copying. To list the FBI website as a "source" clearly understates the copying. In the context of an article or paper, this would be akin to copying passages without showing them in quotes and merely listing the source in the bibliography. Almost everyone would consider that plagiarism. -- DS1953 talk 14:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
To be clear, the article always referenced the FBI as the source of substantial content and no claim to the contrary was ever made -- in the original document a URL was provided and the reference was: "Much of this article comes from FBI documents and photos released in 1985 under the freedom of information act and in the public domain."
What does seem to be controversial is the quantity of public information re-used in this Wikipedia article. However, it is not illegal, unethical, and even uncommon for a private entity to re-issue and re-sell public information, sometimes adding value and sometimes not (e.g., National Weather Service reports and forecasts). Adding the FBIs Duquesne Spy Ring content to Wikipedia enhances the visability of an interesting topic (not controversial is that many people find this article interesting) and it is in keeping with the FBI's mission of disemminating non-classified information as a public good. Paraphrasing is the wrong approach for public content that already stands well on its own (e.g., even though a substantial portion of Wikipedia's U.S. Constitution relies on the original source, nobody would suggest that a substantially paraphrased version for Wikipedia would be more appropriate). In my view, it is better to apply an Open Source standard, like Open source governance, to all public content. Ctatkinson 10:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
If I may add my two cents here: public domain material is free, so we can legally do whatever we want with it. Whatever we include on Wikipedia should be up to Wikipedia standards, though, and that includes sourcing. So, for instance, I think we should either be using the public domain document as a starting point or as a reference, but not both. If what's being copied is a document that isn't thoroughly sourced, we can use it but should make an effort to source all the statements in it. But I do think it would be bad practice to merely source a copy of X by citing X as a source: if we're doing that, we should be quoting from X rather than duplicating it. Mango juice talk 13:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The members of the Baseball Players Task Force (a part of WikiProject Baseball) have been discussing a set of naming conventions for baseball player bios. I have posted the draft copy here. Please feel free to discuss/propose changes at the talk page for the draft copy. Thanks, Caknuck 04:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion about abandoning or improving the Wikipedia:Spoiler warning guideline, with quite a few editors advocating abandoning it. In an effort to prevent the discussion from spreading to this or that separate island, I think it would be desirable to discuss in one place and reach resolution: that place is Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. Demi T/ C 22:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I have drafted a new, proposed guideline - Wikipedia:Notability (residences). I have done this because, simply, we don't have an existing notability guideline regulating this, and this is an attempt to help make decisions at WP:AFD and CAT:PROD. Cool Blue talk to me 21:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Requesting further input as to the addition of language prohibiting links to "attack sites" in NPA. A lengthy debate (punctuated by two periods of page-protection and several loci) centered around whether (or how) the NPA policy should explicitly discuss external links that are not themselves attacks but are made to sites characteristic of such attacks. Loci include: original discussion on WP:BADSITES (currently redirected to NPA), Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MONGO, Serpent's Choice and Bishonen's proposed simplified rewrite of NPA, which has met with approval from several editors, however, not all "involved editors" have been active participants in the discussion in recent weeks, and the recent removal of a link to Kelly Martin's blog added another dimension to the debate.— ACADEMY LEADER FOCUS! 18:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about the article Prem Rawat. The problem is that certain statements are so sensitive and controversial that there have been near-endless disputes about mis paraphrasing selective or out-of-context summarizing of scholarly sources. A solution was finally found in adding verbatim short quotes from the scholarly sources. However this has led to counter-quotes. It has been argued that war of opposing scholarly quotes has led to a bad article. But I do not see an alternative. see User_talk:Rumiton#How.3F The number of words per scholar have been counted to assess allegations of undue weight which I think shows how far the dispute has come. Talk:Prem_Rawat#The_point_of_Andries.27_proposal Any comments? Andries 18:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
One specific example: Ric_Byrne. Articles that provide references, but not in-text citations are hard to verify — especially when the references are not available online. How does one verify that these articles meet the requirements of WP:BLP? Sancho 14:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:FN is only a "how-to guideline" and WP:HARV has no status at all. Maybe someone should draft a policy proposal.-- Runcorn 21:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
After looking through some of my bot's edits and some of the edits of Staeckerbot and OrphanBot, I occasionally see a user frequently removing bot notifications for duplicate images, copyright issues on images, etc. For those that don't want notifications comming from a certain bot, or even all bots I think it would be nice if there was a standard exclusion code created to prevent unwanted notifications. For example to disallow bot FooBar from issuing notifications on their talk page they could post:
at the top of their talk page. To disallow all bots they could post something like:
I'm not suggesting this be an absolute rule though. Vandal bots or bots warning someone to stop some form of abuse wouldn't have to abide by this. It would only serve as a strong indicator that this user doesn't want any non-critical information, such as image deletion notifications, image copyright issues, duplicate image notifications, etc.., posted on their talk page. How does this idea sound? -- Android Mouse 23:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Just because they remove them doesn't mean they don't want the not in the first place. Once you've got the message, there's no reason for users to keep these notes around so they remove them immediately. I think it would be a bad idea to not leave these notes for users at all, though, because they notify people of important happenings relevant to them.
I created a new topic on the bot owners noticeboard. In order to avoid two discussions please place all new comments on that page. -- Android Mouse 17:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I ran across an interesting situation. This image was nominated for deletion as a copyright violation because it appeared with a copyright notice at another web site. But it was uploaded to WP two weeks earlier, apparently by the same person, and licensed under GNU copyleft. The GNU license requires the content to remain free forever, so the copyright notice actually violates copyleft.
If I read the GNU license correctly, it would take precedence whether it was invoked before or after copyright. If before, it must remain free forever, if after, then the copyright is relinquished. I wonder if people patrolling for copyright violations are checking for this? Dhaluza 01:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial is linked from the main neutral point-of-view policy and the page has existed for years now. I think it's about time we add a {{ policy}} or {{ guideline}} template or something similar. -- tariqabjotu 15:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Recently there's been a trend of tagging large numbers of articles for "cleanup" of various kind. This is done using templates, similar to this one:
There problem with these templates is:
These tags are, of course, valuable to editors who want to search for pages to work on, but this would be just as easy if the tags were placed on the talk pages instead.
I'd like to propose the following policy:
Template messages may be placed in articles only if:
Otherwise the message belongs on the talk page.
An exception should probably be made for "stub" messages, especially categorized ones, as those do provide some useful links to the reader.
Once this policy has become official, I'd like to let a robot move many of the cleanup messages onto talk pages where they belong.
-- PeR 06:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a wiki, so Readers and Editors are the same people. If some people don't quite understand that they can edit yet, this should be explained, and they should be encouraged to edit. And guess what, these templates do just that! :-) -- Kim Bruning 18:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The tag is important for mere readers, as it advises that the content may not be based in references or sources, wich means that there would be an important risk of it being inexact, mistaken, outdated, or even a big lie Perón 13:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Out of all the tags to put on an article I believe general ones like a cleanup tag should be removed. This doesn't really tell the readers what is sepcifically wrong, just that the article is subpar. If we are going to have these suggestion-type templates on the article then tags like infoboxrequested should be the first to be allowed, since they are very specific requests that can be handled relativly quickly compared to some of the others. -- Android Mouse 00:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This is related to Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#ISA resolved.
If you've been living under a rock, the dispute is about the International Symbol of Access. It's copyrighted and only allowed to be used under unfree terms (basically don't use it if the thing isn't accessible), so it has been replaced by a free alternative: .
There is an alternative: one of the recent updates to the unicode standard added it as a codepoint: ♿ To me, that shows up as a question mark, since I don't have a font that includes it. To those that do have such a font, it's the ISA.
I'm no lawyer, but I would assume that describing the ISA in two vector graphics formats - SVG and whatever the font uses - are equivalent. Thus distributing a font with the ISA in it is identical to distributing an SVG of the ISA. (If I'm wrong, I could legally distribute a font in which every character is a frame from a movie.)
Thus using the unicode codepoint is requiring the end user to download something unfree. (This seems similar to our use of OGG rather than MP3; MP3 players are de facto free as in beer, but not free as in freedom.) A distribution of Wikipedia on a DVD or other fixed media would have to include that unfree font to ensure that end users don't see question marks.
What do others think about this? -- NE2 06:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Tangent, what is the specific font that goes with this symbol? — Someguy0830 ( T | C) 01:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
One wonders if the makers or users of those fonts will get themselves sued at some point. ^^;; -- Kim Bruning 08:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Putting the free/non-free debate aside for a moment, the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion. Now that Template:Access icon has been changed to require the font (although some pages I see that transclude that template still display Image:Wheelchair.svg) and Help:Displaying the international wheelchair symbol has appeared, I had to say something. Unlike the need to download a font for language character support, or a plug-in for popular rich media applications (Flash, Java, QuickTime, etc.), this kind of download should not be required by users in order to experience Wikipedia. If Wikipedia (Wiki software) installs this functionality, then this may be a different story.
I could download a font and install it, but what about users in a public library, educational institution or workplace who have to ask the administrator to install the font and possibly go through bureaucracy to do so? I will not, and do not intend to download a font just to be able to display one symbol within the font. And ironically, although I know very little about Web accessibility, this action has got to make it harder for Wikipedia to be accessible to all users. Tinlinkin 05:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
While it is shooting ourselves in the foot, it's less so than the other alternatives that the more zealous policy editors were willing to consider. -- tjstrf talk 05:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
the idea of having to download a font just to display a particular symbol is really unexpected for users to do and not a good reason to utilize the font, in my opinion.
"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users." [7]
"and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users"
- this, I think, clearly rules out user boxes which are not identifying, marking or showing the way to buildings or facilities that are accessible and usable by people whose mobility is restricted. Dan Beale 18:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)"The Symbol shall be displayed only to identify, mark or show the way to buildings and facilities that are accessible to and useable by all persons whose mobility is restricted, including wheelchair users."
Changing the subject slightly, I think it's better to represent the ISA as a Unicode character rather than using the replacement image. Here is a side-by-side comparison:
I know that most users won't already have a compatible font installed. Hopefully this will change in the future. At least with the font option, we are trying to change the world by encouraging font downloads rather than trying to change the world by using a nonstandard symbol instead of a standard one.
Obviously, neither solution is ideal. Either way we're effectively telling the ICTA that their copyright terms aren't good enough (though the nonstandard icon rubs that in their face). The ideal solution would be to just send the ISA as an image. However, I've taken another look at Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy and it seems to me that we're simply not allowed to send the ISA as an image outside of the article about the ISA. The Foundation's policy should be changed, but I doubt they will do so.
So, what do you all think? Which is better, the nonstandard symbol or the standard symbol that requires a font download? — Remember the dot ( talk) 16:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
title
attribute, which screen readers should pick up, now reads "Disability accessible. Click here if you are seeing a question mark or empty rectangle." The reason we don't want to use
is because it is just a drawing of a wheelchair and not a widely recognized symbol. —
Remember the dot (
talk) 17:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Asking people to download a font to display this symbol is ridiculous and serves no practical purpose. The distinction between hosting the symbol ourselves and displaying a symbol stored on the user's computer is utterly meaningless because there is no legal issue that prevents us from doing the former. We're merely skirting our own policy (via a silly technicality, no less). From a philosophical perspective, it makes no difference how the symbol reaches the user; either way, we're displaying non-free content. The idea that it isn't okay for us to supply it directly, but it is okay to do so by having people download it from someone else is mind-bogglingly absurd.
Given the fact that absolutely no legal issues are in play, all that matters is whether it's philosophically appropriate for us to use this symbol for its intended purpose. A strict interpretation of the Foundation principles indicates that it technically isn't, but there appears to be wide agreement that such a prohibition is not the intent of said policy (given the fact that the image's restrictions exist solely to prevent abuse and in no way limit its use by us or anyone else for its internationally recognized purpose). That's why a formal exception should be established at the Foundation level.
The apparent belief of some that we must follow policy to the letter but are welcome to ignore the spirit (by displaying non-free content in a manner that technically complies with the letter) is quite disheartening. —
David Levy 18:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks like NE2 just reverted the {{ access icon}} template back to his original Image:Wheelchair.svg. I thought this issue was pretty much resolved, but I guess not. I honestly don't see the difference between using a unicode character on the site vs. uploading a 20px version of the image. Either way, you're still hosting the copyrighted logo. – Dream out loud 18:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see my comments at Template talk:Access icon. — Remember the dot ( talk) 20:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The members of the Baseball Players Task Force (a part of WikiProject Baseball) have been discussing a set of naming conventions for baseball player bios. I have posted the draft copy here. Please feel free to discuss/propose changes at the talk page for the draft copy. Thanks, Caknuck 04:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Following discussion at Wikipedia talk:Overcategorization#Categorizing redirects, I've started a proposal at Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects and would like community input and help to edit the proposal and see if it is acceptable. Please discuss on its talk page, and suggest other places to get input. Thanks. Carcharoth 23:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
There is an active discussion regarding article structure and neutral point of view at WT:NPOV. Separate criticism sections would be an example of potential concern. There is currently a proposal to insert a clarification regarding this issue. Vassyana 06:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I logged on today and saw that the user
Nived 90 had been editing userboxes that were in my namespace. The userbox in question was
User:FastLizard4/Userboxing/Federation. Apparently, he changed a border style because it bothered him. Isn't this not something you are supposed to do, or is there somehing I don't know?
--
FastLizard4 (
Talk|
Contribs) 05:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC) -- I would also appreciate a response on my
Talk Page.
No page should be 100% owned by anyone, and WP:AGF Nived 90 had some good reason. Still, I'd always tell the user what I'd done and why.-- Runcorn 21:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Nived 90 was probably trying to be helpful :-) I'd thank them, then discuss how to get along. :-) -- Kim Bruning 21:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC) if you didn't actually like the change, still say thank you -it's the thought that counts :-) - and then discuss if maybe you can figure out a style that you both like
If I were to ask someone to repeatedly leave me alone and tell them that I do not welcome their contributions, do not feel that they are in good faith, am disturbed by their constant messages both on article pages in response to myself and on my own talk page, and trace my contributions to find new pages to bother me on, would they be justified under WP:EQ because they feel they have the right to be treated with "good faith" and that they are "helping" a user?
Or does this fall under WP:STALK and WP:EQ: "If you know you don't get along with someone, don't interact with them more than you need to. Unnecessary conflict distracts everyone from the task of making a good encyclopedia, and is just unpleasant. Actually following someone you dislike around Wikipedia is sometimes considered stalking, and is frowned on because it can be disruptive. If you don't get along with someone, try to become more friendly. If that doesn't help the situation then it is probably best to avoid them."
Also, if that person had contacts that have no involvment with you, had no reason to be going to the same pages, could not have happened onto the conversation via coincidence, and, according to Occam's Razor, probably came to the defense of someone they viewed as a friend, is this also contributing to the violation of the above rule? SanchiTachi 03:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This useful page seems partially forgotten, and has no clear status, I have labelled it with 'proposed'. See also my comments at relevant discussion page about how it ties to aspects of WP:ATT/FAQ.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The big warning at the bottom of edit pages recently changed to:
Do not copy text from other websites without a GFDL license. It will be deleted.
This is nonsense; it is directly contradicted by the sentence in small print just below:
Only public domain resources can be copied without permission—this does not include most web pages or images.
Seems like a revert to whatever was there before is appropriate.
It does contradict it, because PD websites aren't GFDL. We could even copy from CC-BY websites, because GFDL preserves attribution. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 01:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The text in question is MediaWiki:Edittools, I've changed it to "GFDL-compatible," because public domain and attribution only work too. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 02:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Could more people look at Wikipedia:Upload? It is a form that some people have installed on the sidebar with the aim of improving upon Special:Upload (original discussion at Mediawiki talk:Uploadtext). The talk page shows disputes over whether the page should be full protected, whether it should include an obvious link to Special:Upload (for people who know what they are doing and want to put up with all the new stuff), and how it should be linked from the sidebar. Dragons flight 21:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
If anyone can answer this question, or if you have knowledge related to the topic, please join in the discussion here. (Please do not respond here, let's keep the discussion in one place.) Thank you! Joie de Vivre 16:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Please read the discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 23#Crystal Gail Mangum. I've put forward a view of the application of the neutrality and no original research policies to biographies of living persons, and a suggestion that we can work on. There's discussion there and at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#The new section people are putting in, too. Please contribute to the discussions. Uncle G 13:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I've observed that the Baltimore Oriole article is definitely not written in US English, and, unless I'm rather mistaken, rather different from Canadian as well. The Manual of Style says that there will rarely be a compelling reason to change the spelling (or in this case, the vocabulary and usage) of the entire article. Is the North American nature of this bird sufficient to change its spelling, or should it remain as is? Nyttend 02:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter what type of English you use in the article, but the type must be consistent throughout.-- Kylohk 18:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The current situation with WP:BLP has gotten way out of control. The policy was initially intended to prevent a recurrence of something like the Seigenthaler controversy, by ensuring that biography articles were carefully watched and that unsourced gossip and rumor was not included. However, a few administrators have recently begun to interpret it to exclude anything, even if it was published in a reliable source, that might reflect badly on someone. Entire articles have been deleted and salted because they are somehow considered to be "inherent BLP violations," even though by the original understanding of BLP there is no such thing. This trend clearly violates a core Wikipedia policy, Neutral Point of View, as well as the basic principle that Wikipedia is not censored. Consequently, I think it's time that the unnecessary cruft be removed from the BLP policy, so that it can no longer be used as an excuse for high-handed, out-of-consensus administrative actions.
I propose the following wording, to constitute BLP in its entirety:
When biographical material on living people is involved, it is extremely important that all core Wikipedia content policies be followed carefully. This includes, but is not limited to, the following standards: Verifiability, Neutral point of view, No original research, and Reliable sources. |
Any unsourced or poorly sourced biographical material on living people may be removed without discussion. Such edits do not count towards the Three-revert rule. If a biographical article consists of nothing but material that violates Wikipedia standards, and there is no good version to revert to, then it should be deleted. At the discretion of other editors, a new, compliant version may later be created at the same title in accordance with Wikipedia policy. |
Things have gotten way out of control on this issue. We can't rely upon Arbcom to make policy; they clearly don't want to, and it isn't their job. This needs to be worked out within the community. And the feedback I have seen over the past week within the community makes it clear that a majority of editors do not like the expansive, overreaching manner in which BLP has been applied. *** Crotalus *** 22:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons. If you have any specific cases of overreaching, please post a notice in the BLP noticeboard. And if you have specific concerns about admin actions, please post a notice in the Admin noticeboard ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
An external link to a page describing a specific geocache site (see geocaching) has been added to Elsbridge. My gut feeling is that the link is not appropriate, and should be deleted, especially since the article is about a fictional location! However, I have had a look at WP:EL and I'm still uncertain.
The main reason for seeking advice here is that the External Link search tool currently brings up just over 100 links to www.geocaching.com, the most popular site, and I was wondering whether there was any kind of precedent/guidance/policy/advice for including or removing links to specific geocache locations?
The list includes a large number of user pages, and a number of links that are probably appropriate examples, neither of which are a problem. However, a significant number of instances occur on specific location pages, pointing at specific cache details, and it is these in particular that I am questioning. Should a WP location article feature a link to a geocache sited at that location?
(This query was previously posted, without attracting a response, on the VP(assistance) page.)
EdJogg 13:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The WP:NOR discussion page has significant discussion on the WP:SYN section of the synthesis policy. WP:SYN currently prohibits "synthesis that advances a position" but there is no coherent Wikipedia:Synthesis policy that defines "synthesis" or shows what is appropriate and inappropriate forms of synthesis. I have started an essay that highlights this dilemma, ( WP:BRAIN but I don't know where to draw the line on "good vs bad" synthesis. Please help me edit this essay to assist formation of a coherent synthesis policy. Peace, MPS 03:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
For some highly controversial articles that need Request-for-Meditation(RfM), recently it is suspected that certain users changed the article into a personal form, then immediately request WP:RFP to lock into the expected form before meditation and disputation resolution. The sysadmin who is (randomly) assigned to do the lockdown knows a little about the actual details, then almost surely performs the lockdown after seeing the editing war. This loophole does look like a vulnerable point of the wikipedia system. If not countermeasured, this could soon become a standard trick in editing wars. A countermeasure is not very complex, for example, a new wikipolicy WP:LockdownBeforeRFM could be defined to say that the disputed article must be locked before meditation and locked to an early stable version at least 3 days before the appearance of the disputation (even if this version could be the 1st one-liner version). This stable version can be easily identified by looking at the article's history page.
It seems that the countermeasure may effectively repair the loophole.-- Jiejunkong 09:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
In this sort of situation, whatever version is locked down, one party will cry foul.-- Runcorn 19:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Not speaking for the MedCom here, I feel that if a mediation cannot take place without the users involved being willing enough to disengage in order to help resolve the dispute, then mediation is doomed to failure. Mediation is based on good faith between those involved in the process, and if users are so unwilling to help to resolve the dispute by preventing themselves from editing the article, then in a lot of cases (not all) they will be unwilling to help resolve the dispute. Furthermore, full protection is horrible and pointless in a long term mediation situation, becuase it only serves to lock out uninvolved editors from making useful changes. Mart inp23 18:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the version which is initially locked, it seems appropriate for the arbitrator or an appointee to re-lock the most recent stable version. -- Kevin Murray 19:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Reply I am not asking for locking on the so-called "right" version (we know there is no such thing), but an earlier stable version before the potential attacker had the chance to interfere. Because traveling back in time is impossible, this effectively eliminates the attack I described at the beginning of this section.-- Jiejunkong 01:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board#Māori names about inclusion of Māori language names in infoboxes of New Zealand cities. Further input is welcome.- gadfium 20:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I tried to stay as far away as possible from userboxes as I can, but what is the current consensus/policy on userboxes like {{ User:EVula/Userboxes/User against Bush}}? Leave those in template-space, move to user-space, speedy-delete? — Ruud 19:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
A week ago, I removed a one-sentence ad from an article on a small town, New Hampshire, Ohio, and left a no-ads template message on the talk page of the IP that added the ad. This morning, I got a personal attack from the IP on my talk page and on the New Hampshire talk page. My question is this: what level of warning template should be left for the IP? Should it get a first-level, since this is its first personal attack? Or a second-level, since it's already had another warning recently, by me? Or a third-level, since the message was given twice in slightly different versions, both of which are very obviously bad faith ("Get an effing life...")? Regardless of which is correct, I'm not entirely sure what the WP:UTM guidelines want me to do. And by the way, I'd appreciate it if someone else left a warning for the IP. Nyttend 15:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This is regarding
Category:Non-free image size reduction request (i cant figure out how to internal link a category page, could someone drop the answer at my talk page)
I need to know if there is a specific size that the images should be smaller than, or can i just resize according to my ideas...
Cyberoid
X 13:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
There is now a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Logos#Captions for all Logos about a proposed policy that all (trademarked) logos on wikipedia have a caption. nadav ( talk) 07:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)