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Should be subject to ESRB ratings, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.96.227 ( talk • contribs)
If we're going to start getting rid of things a lot of people find offensive, the article on Britney Spears won't last very long. -- Dweller 09:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Over the last few weeks, intense discussions have been ongoing at Wikipedia talk:No original research about the seciton on "Primary, Secondary and Tertiary Sources". It is proposed that this section be replaced with a new section entitled "Recognising the Right Source Materials". The intent of the proposal is not to change any of the basic premises of WP:NOR. The proposed change shifts the focus of the policy section in question from deliniating types of sources (and what sorts of statements they can be cited for) to deliniating types of statements (and choosing sources that properly support the statement). Instead of discussing "Primary, Secondary and Tertiary sources" it discusses "Statements of fact, Statements of opinion, and Statements of analysis/interpretation/conclusion).
The editors involved in the discussions seem to be close to consensus (on concept if not exact language), and the time has come to seek broader community involvement and comments. Blueboar 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) An attempt to present primary, secondary and tertiary sources independently of NOR has already been taking place at Wikipedia:Classification of sources. Vassyana 12:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I keep reading how the "trivia sections are discouraged under Wikipedia policy", and I wonder: why? Because it's not in keeping with the usual "encyclopedic" standards?
Let me tell you something: it's precisely "trivia" what sparks people's interest and helps KEEP the knowledge thus acquired where it belongs - in the memory (instead of in books).
So the only thing you should ever worry about is to keep the "trivia" accurate and free of slander. That's it.
If you choose to go the usual, old-fashioned "encyclopedic" way, you might end up like those old-fashioned encyclopedic volumes: gathering thick layers of dust.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.142.54.94 ( talk) 03:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The biggest problem with trivia sections is that they are almost completely Original Research and without sources, reliable or otherwise. And then when the addition is questioned, you get, "Go play the game", or "Go see the movie" or "Go rent the DVD", as if that's a reliable source. And a hundred single-line trivia entries like "In the movie Fred and Ethel go to Mars, when Fred is staring out of the space station and looking at Mons Olympus, he's standing just like Winston Churchill did in the famous painting by Grandma Moses". Corvus cornix 17:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
In my mind, there are different kinds of trivia. There's the stuff that is just pointless, like every single time any media has ever mentioned the subject (this is a lot of it). But there is also interesting, relevant trivia. For example, let's say that we're talking about Winston Churchill. The fact that, say, Bart Simpson once dressed up as Winston Churchill for a Simpson's Halloween episode (not true) is the kind of pointless, one-off trivia factoid that should be deleted. On the other hand, lets say that Winston Churchill is the most written about U.K. Prime Minister in history and there was a cite to a reliable source. Now, this is also trivia, but it's the kind that I think adds to one's understanding of the subject, even if it isn't essential. The problem I have with trivia policies is that they tend to be indiscriminate or vague and throw out the baby with the bathwater. - Chunky Rice 18:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The quotes above from WP:TRIVIA and WP:NOT are not at all contradictory. They shouldn't be removed=they should be cleaned up and merged into the article proper, increasing the readability and giving context to those items that are more than just "indirectly-related" to the topic at large. I can't tell you how many times I've gone seen a Trivia section popped off where 80% of it could be merged into the article proper seamlessly, and, since the bulk tend to just be popular culture references, reliably sourced with relative ease when appropriate. ( ex) This is more true in WP:BIO, geography, and science articles than in television episode articles, as the latter do tend to consist of a bunch of fan-cruft and unsourced/unsupported listings of potential "mistakes" in the subject work. MrZaius talk 09:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's a good example of this in action. Here ( [1]) is an old version of the Donald Bradman article, from 1st August this year, before a group started a push towards FA. There were 12 bullets of trivia. Some have been retained, but placed in appropriate sections, some were removed as unencyclopedic. It's hard to show the difference using a diff, because so much work's been done on the article, but here's one of the steps that made it happen, showing some deletion and some moving into existing and newly created encyclopedic sections. ( [2]). Hope that clears things up. -- Dweller 10:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the policy concerning the citing of sources that can't be readily checked, such as citing a TV interview or DVD or an article that can't be found on the Web? A link to the policy would be nice as I can't find it anywhere I've looked.-- Bamadude 03:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the links & info. Wikipedia:Citation templates shows a template for using a video as a source, which works great for a video published on the Web and maybe even including a DVD that can be readily purchased on the open market (if you want to go that far to verify something), but it would be impossible to verify a TV interview as a source when you can't find it on the web, in a library, on a DVD or in an archive, so I would think per Wikipedia:Verifiability that non-archived TV interviews are not good sources for citations as they can't be readily verified by the reader --- comments, please?-- Bamadude 18:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but these are both bad examples above. If you have a 2nd source that's readily available, you don't need the video, Karanacs. And the point of having a citation is being able to readily verify it, not necessarily with a mouse click per se, but actually having the ability to do so, R.B. A one-off, non-archived TV interview is nearly-impossible for anybody to verify in my opinion. Lexis Nexis is subscription-only and not everyone has it as you realize and it's really impressive, but it doesn't have everything as noted here.-- Bamadude 19:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The reason I mentioned the Tonight Show was that I have heard an actor saying something on a interview that if it appeared in print it took a long time for it to be appear . Garda40 00:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the issue here. Of course non-web sources are fine. And sources that are hard to find are also fine. While web-based sources are nice in that anybody can look them up, rejecting non-web based sources simply because they are not immediately accessible is not founded on any Wikipedia policy and runs counter to several. - Chunky Rice 02:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I think some common sense is called for here. There are bad sources in all types of media, and reliable sources in all types. An article from the New York Times is a reliable source, whether it is on the website or from a 1942 edition. If a major presidential candidate declares his candidacy on the David Letterman Show, then that fact should be sourced to the show, not an account of it. For some topics, books are the best sources, and remain so for decades. (I write articles on illuminated manuscripts, sometimes the best source is for a particular manuscript is from the nineteenth century.) For topics that advance quickly, a website that can be updated may the best source. However, as has been noted above, given the mutable nature of the web, just because a website said something at the time it was referenced, doesn't mean that it says that now. Print sources have the advantage of being stable, if a certain edition of a work says something, it will say that until all of the copies are destroyed. The existence of any book can be verified via the web through Worldcat, the Library of Congress catalog, or other such sites. Almost any book can be acquired via inter-library loan from almost any library. (I have reguarly used ILL in my home-town public library, and have borrowed the 19th century works mentioned above. I live in town of 35,000 in Oklahoma.) Any editor can check any source, if the editor is willing to put forth the effort. Dsmdgold 03:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
(indent reset) Well, I actually did read the above discussion. I would generally tend to say that this is covered by the requirement that sources must be published. A DVD which was offered for sale to the general public is a fixed, tangible medium of publication just as much as a book is, and is likely to be available at libraries and the like, even if processes such as interlibrary loan must be used. On the other hand, a TV show which is not available in a fixed medium is not really published—for verification purposes, the source no longer exists, it only existed while it was being broadcast, and is not likely to be available through any means other than contacting the TV station (and they are perfectly free to deny requests to purchase a copy). In practice, it is not a source which actually allows verification. "Published" generally implies publication in a non-ephemeral medium. TV shows are broadcast, but not published, unless they are later offered on a fixed medium. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Somewhere in this thread, another important wiki-principle got left out, Wikipedia:Assume good faith. A hard to verify source is still verifiable (even if you have to buy a copy from the television studio, for example). But unless there is some reason suspect the statement being supported by the video citation is inaccurate, then there is little reason to worry about it. It is basically reasonable to assume the editor saw the show and reported it accurately, unless some evidence to the contrary exists. However, if the facts being supported by that citation are called into question (for example by other contradictory sources), then people should attempt to verify the citation, and if it can't be verified in a reasonable manner it should be removed. 169.229.142.143 22:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I am a new user and I haven't edited much since my employer didn't allow me to use my work computer for non-work related purposes and I didn't want my IP traced to his work. However, I was a frequent reader and follower of Wikipedia, and spent many hours at work reading different articles and policy pages in order to familiarize myself with the site. In any case, I was notified today that this would be my last week at this job because my fascist employer said I spent too much time on Wikipedia. I am very upset and was wondering if this was very common, and what I could and should do about it. Thanks, Haute Fuzze 22:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
For example this image contains a watermark for rocketman.org, which is where the image originated, but that site is quite spammy and I don't think it would be allowed as an external link (the first text on that site is "Official Rocketbelt Flight Gear On Sale Now!!!")
I'm more aware of this site because there have been attempts to promote this site in the Jet pack article, it was previously mentioned and linked to many times and the related Dan Schlund article looks like an advert to me. Should images like this that have spammy URLs watermarked be removed? Basil Richards 19:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
So, lets say there is a non-notable entity. Lets say, for arguement, some random Led Zeppelin tribute band that seems to play in a few clubs in Chicago. Lets also say, that this band, for the sake of arguement, is entirely non-notable. Now, what if said band creates a user page in the exact style of a wikipedia article for the sole purpose of advertising themselves? See User:In The Light (band). What do we do about this? -- Jayron32| talk| contribs 04:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello I have proposed a change to {{ PD-Art}}. At the moment the template ignores one of the basic property laws, by making it sound like if the uploader is in the USA, they may release a work into the Public Domain, even though the copyright is legally detained by a person in another country. If you are interested in discussing please see Template talk:PD-art#International issues, Thanks. Jackaranga 02:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
There is currently an uncertainty as to if we should put references and citations in the lead section of an article. The main problem arised when I do GA reviews and editors debate whether or not there should be references in the lead section. I personally think that there should be references in the lead, just to be consistent with the rest of the article. Oidia ( talk) 00:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The lead must be as accurate and as balanced as possible. Summarizing material for the lead can introduce several problems (1) improper synthesis (2) undue weight for obsolete theories in historical articles (2) unduly narrow definitions which exclude certain traditions in political, religious, philosophical articles (4) incomplete definitions which neglect important values in political, religious, or philosophical articles, etc. Rechecking the lead against the sources can help avoid/correct these problems. Jacob Haller 02:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I have always been neutral on the issue of citations in the lead. As LaraLove stated, they are not usually required, as the lead should ONLY contain information that is referenced elsewhere. As an exception to this, direct quotes, even in the lead, should always be cited, as well as statements of superlatives (so-and-so is the best selling, etc.) and other material likely to be highly controversial. However, if someone HAS cited in the lead material that is ALSO cited elsewhere, I would never advocate removing said citations. Basically, if the material is cited elsewhere, it does not HAVE to be cited in the lead, but even if it is, I would not advocate removing the extra citations.-- Jayron32| talk| contribs 04:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Some of us may not know that Wikipedia is not a trivia collection has been removed from WP:NOT.
This proposed guideline is so that WP:NOT#TRIVIA can be returned to Wikipedia. It is distinct from Wikipedia:Trivia sections in that it is a content policy, not a style policy. This guideline states that trivia may be removed.
While some editors will regard this guideline as obvious, even common sense, there is currently a tremendous amount of opposition to Wikipedia having limitations on trivia. As this proposal is specificly a content guideline, it may receive even greater opposition than Wikipedia:Trivia sections has been subject to in recent months.
I could use specific suggestions and general feedback. A guideline (which this is proposed to be) does not need to contradict itself, so contradictory philosophies need not be introduced, but I would also be interested in feedback from people have problems with excluding trivia, especially if they have specific suggestions on how this guideline can be made better.
(This message is cross-posted in Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not.) / edg ☺ ★ 14:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't get it. If there's a lot of opposition to the idea as you say, how would you expect there to be consensus for it to be a guideline? We don't create new guideline forks simply because people have rejected something or there's an edit war where it now resides. That's an "asking the other parent" problem. I find the new proposal redundant, unnecessarily long, full of policy creep, and laden with statements of unique personal opinions about how Wikipedia works. It's got a long way to go before it's ready for showtime as a guideline proposal, and I question whether it's wise or necessary. We already have a guideline on an identical topic, WP:TRIVIA. Wikidemo 15:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I think we do need a page for this, or we will be fighting about it indefinitely. But the present proposal is in any case too vague to be meaningful, and will be subject to continual attempts to adjust it for the various positions. There are however possible trivia guidelines that might be supportable, and that would at least approximate the present consensu--divided though it is. It would need to be
Very significant number/percentage of pages on Wikipedia can be put under some (respective) smaller geographical area (city/district/county etc), it would be better if one can know which other Wikipedians belong to the city he/she reside/belong helping in better collaboration for pages belonging to that city.
For this user account creation page can have combo box from which user can select the city/district/county name and this selection can be kept optional. For existing users, they may be notified in some other way to enter that (optional) info.
Vjdchauhan 18:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC).
I have seen that in the german wiki rhere has been a discussion on what should make up something like a "relevant software" [ [7]].
Is there a special coded policy for software established yet here? -- CasaMeaEuropea 01:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Since the Wikipedia logo is copyrighted, is this use a copyright violation? Corvus cornix 23:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks for the responses, everybody. Corvus cornix 16:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This evening I stumbled across an editor's talk page where he and another editor conspire to edit war against another editor, avoiding WP:3RR by each only reverting twice. I'm assuming this is against policy, what should I do? Justin talk 21:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Having read about the #German Wikipedia limiting editing to trusted editors in a couple of newspapers, is there anything in the English Wikipedia area on the topic? How does it work - and how would newcomers become "trusted editors"?
"On first impression" the policy is likely to create problems - most people are ressonably responsible (and mistakes and fingers in a twist will always occur). The policy will not prevent edit wars and more subtle forms of "creative rewriting": there are too many backlogs for "all newbies/occasional users' entries to be double-checked for the (first 50) entries" or similar - some sort of compromise or visible means of working up to trusted editor status is required. Jackiespeel 15:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Could a link be put "somewhere more visible" to the above? If a form of kitemarking with clear reasoning being presented I think most people could see the point of the exercise (except when their "carefully prepared articles" fail to reach the standard (g)). Jackiespeel 15:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I wondered if there would be a discussion about his, was going to start one if there wasn't. This is copied word for word from the
Daily Mirror, admittedly not the most reliable of sources.
Online encyclopedia Wikipedia is stopping the public posting information on its website after complaints of doctoring. Instead, only "trusted editors" will be allowed access to it. Web users will still be able to suggest changes to entries - but they will have to be vetted first. The move comes after some info on US-based Wikipedia, viewed daily by 7% of all Internet users - was deliberately distorted, leading to complaints that the site is inaccurate. CIA staff changed the profiles of Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan and US Congress staff removed embarrassing and negative information about some senators. The new checking system will be tried out first on the German version of the site. Wikipedia's David Gerard Who? says "Nothing has been set in stone, but its almost certain that changes will be made to the German version of the site in November. Depending on how the trial goes, we will consider applying them to the English version." A screening device called WikiScanner Is it? is also being used and has picked out doctoring by the Vatican and Disney. And software rating the reliability of editors is also now in useSince when?
Is this just nonsense or is there some truth behind it? I was pretty sure that consensus had gone against his move many times, not to mention, it would dramatically reduce the number of edits, both with people unable to edit, and the "trusted editors"(Who would these be and would would pick these), would be utterly swamped with all the "suggestions", leaving little time for their own editing.--
Jac16888 21:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this up again. During the last discussion about the standardisation of nationality on Wikipedia, no consensus was reached. However, a big edit war has started at Colin McRae about whether he was Scottish or British. It saddens me to see an edit war on an article about someone recently deceased.
These edit wars will keep occurring until something is done about this problem. Surely there's some way that this long-term problem can be resolved? Readro 20:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Talk:El Dorado, Kansas is composed essentially of a project banner and political commentary, including the statement "Dark days lie ahead for El Dorado. The town remains sharply divided. All persons and business owners considering relocating to El Dorado should avoid doing so. Consider yourself forewarned." Is it appropriate to blank the page, except for the project banner? Nyttend 00:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know if police reports are copyrighted, since works of federal employees are, but I'm not so sure about the police. I would like to know this because I need to add such an image to the Kurt Cobain article.
Also, would his suicide note be copyrighted?-- Floaterfluss (talk) (contribs) 22:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I was a member a few years back, and doing my bit of editing. Then, not knowing my way around back then, ended up saving a page as a blank page. A minute later, it had been reverted. All good. In my messages though "Well done, your experiment worked. We've reverted it now. Be good next time. Bye now" Not quite the phrase, but time makes fools of us all.
The point i'm striving to is how patronising can Wikipedia get? Is this really the message you want to give? Oh, and anyone who tries to argue against an admin, well bad luck. If you don't get blocked, or similar, then you're threat gets deleted ESPECIALLY if you were winning the argument. And the link to patronising "Thread closed. Please do not feed the trolls."
This is just a general rant, but I'd like to know what you all think. Is patronising anyone on here who does something slightly unusual, like delete a page by accident, or make an edit that doesn't fit the strict dogma a good idea? Do the admins just close arguments they can't win? And i do mean proper arguments, not 'you smell of wee: no, you smell of wee' arguments.
Nin82 12:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The proper template for blanking is {{ uw-delete1}}, it produces this:
Hello, I'm Graham87. I noticed that you recently removed content without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks.
--— Random832 22:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Though mainspace warnings are valid and necessary in many cases, they do junk up the articles. So shouldn't such mainspace warnings be limited to only those situations where they are a necessary disclosure to readers rather than warnings to other editors? For example, the warnings on protected articles really detract from what may otherwise be a commendable and pristine article. Here's a case I'm talking about: Greek mythology. It's awarded Featured Article status and gets a subtle tiny star in the right corner. However, it also gets frequently vandalized, and the "award" it gets for that is a big ugly boxed message at the very top of the article with a solid "keep out" padlock icon which is 10 times larger than the FA star.
Can't we do better? Would it be so horrible to simply post the lock with a cute little padlock icon under or next to the FA star and save the big boxed protected article messages for the talk pages? I appreciate that we want to really maintain the "anyone can edit" atmosphere here, but sometimes I think that we go too far, always fluffing the pillows and warming the coffee for the editors, and overlook how it sometimes leaves a mess behind for the readers. Professor marginalia 22:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I am announcing a proposal to change certain aspects of WP:NFCC#10, the part of policy about image description pages. This proposal would simplify the data required on image description pages of nonfree images. It would also allow for certain common use rationales (like a book cover image on the article about the book) to be obtained from templates.
The proposal does not change any other part of the nonfree content criteria. But, as conversation on this talk page indicates, making the image description pages easier to format correctly would make it easier to bring images into compliance and make it easier to detect new images that don't provide required information.
The proposal is at Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria/Proposal and its talk page is Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria/Proposal. This proposal was developed by conversation among User:Anetode, User:Betacommand, User:Wikidemo and me. We hope others will look over it and discuss it on the associated talk page. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 20:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
memory is the diary that we all carry about with us. -oscar wilde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.115.228.111 ( talk) 13:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
About inserting images in dab pages, See discussion. Thanks. Lara_bran 10:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Interview Questions I am a student at the University of South Florida and I was writing a paper on the use of wikis in the corporate world. I was wondering if you could answer these five questions I need as support for my paper:
1.) Do you find wikis to be useful tools? Why?
2.) What do you use wikis for?
3.) Do you feel wikis can be used for educational purposes? Why or why not?
4.) Some wikis are used as discussion boards. Do you feel that they are being abused? Why or why not?
5.) In some businesses, wikis are being abused by employees. Employees are using as discussion boards. Some may even alter the wikis of their companies and put up false information, ultimately resulting in profit losses. How can this be prevented? Please respond as soon as possible. Thank you, Mario Abreu —Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperMar8 ( talk • contribs) 23:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The system analyst within Speaks again. People who feel they are attacked, people who feel harassed, people who feel others are uncivil have nowhere to go. Unlike 3RR violations the corresponding policies are seldom enforced against anybody that has been an editor for longer than a few months, and that has created an unpleasant environment at best. So i have drafted an essay on a system of enforcement that would empower the community to be the jury in cases like this while not driving anybody away. Please read and comment Community Court for community issues. -- Alexia Death the Grey 11:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Is adding GPS coordinates to articles via Google Earth considered original research and therefore against policy. I want to add GPS to a series of Denver articles so they can show up in Google Earth and don't know how else I would find the coordinates without the program (especially for places that wouldn't logically have any documentation of GPS coordinates like parks, streets etc.) Any advice? Vertigo700 23:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Have you tried searching the USGS? They have searchable coordinates for ~2 million places, accessible here. You mention parks as an example... it gives the coords of most non-tiny parks in my home county. Can't see why USGS data wouldn't be a reliable source. -- W.marsh 01:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
All comments above overlook the fact that geographical coordinate systems are not created equal. For Example Lat-Long data can vary significantly depending on the Datum that you use (e.g. NAD27 vs NAD83). There are literally hundreds of different datums used to anchor varying models of the earth's surface, which are used to generate different geographical coordinate systems. USGS maps rely on NAD83, with coordinates expressed most accurately using UTM values. "GPS coordinates" are simply the values of geographical coordinates observed with a given GPS units. The accuracy of these can vary widely based on chipset, overstory of the environment, height of horizon, etc. To the original issue, supplying GPS coordinate data can not be original research, since you are applying an existing system of measurement to a known location. You can look coordinates (of many different flavors) for anywhere on the world up using another data source. I know these things because I am a professor of geography who teaches GIS.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.101.13.42 ( talk • contribs)
{{ coor title dms}} with args like |33|53|20.86|S|151|13|31.41|E|region:AU-NSW_type:landmark, as in the Sydney Football Stadium article at the bottom. This is a "long" accepted practice on the wiki, and does not raise any major issues. As long as the location or street address of the object isn't contested/is widely available, it shouldn't be an issue. MrZaius talk 11:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I see that this proposed, and possibly unfinished page has been worked on by basically a single editor, who contributed extensively in June, not so much in July, and whose last contribution was 2 months ago. I also see a fair amount of recent opposes by established editors on its talk page. Has the time come for a final discussion on whether to accept, reject, or amend this proposal? Users are welcome to comment. Thanks. - Mtmelendez ( Talk| UB| Home) 12:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm new here and not sure how to make a suggestion for a policy change (or whatever this idea is thought to be at the Wiki)...anyway, I would like Wikipedia, in addition to the scholarly method used to show the pronounciation of a word, also include a much more accessable pronounciation guide that even an average person can use...for example, this is from the NY Times and shows their method for helping a reader pronounce a word: "Mr. Contois (pronounced con-TOYZ) undertook a campaign to improve safety awareness."
Now can't the Wikipedia request that contributors to articles, in addition to the method for showing pronounciation now used that only scholars understand, also use this NY Times technique so that regular folks, including kids, are able to easily figure out how to say a word correctly??
Just a suggestion, but would someone put this in the right place on your web site, if this is not the right forum, where this proposal can be properly considered by the Wikipedia community??
Thanks,
12.208.203.25 15:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)Martin A.
Hi, I'm trying to clarify if a yearbook can be used as a reliable source on an article. The subject of the article alleges to have gotten numerous death threats (which I believe to be true) and has stated that because of these threats his identity and location were to be kept out of articles and reports (although the location is likely to be compromised soon). His identity however has been kept out but now an editor is asserting they have a yearbook in which they can prove the subject's identity. I responded that that was original research but they cited that yearbooks aren't included. So, can a yearbook be used as a reliable source or is it us doing original research? Benjiboi 00:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, is it just me or does anyone else find the balance of article subjects on this website somewhat disturbing?
Some subjects are obviously favourites with the editors notably:
- tv (eg: Pilot (Smallville), today's featured article);
- celebs minor or otherwise
- music that goes with computer games, computer viruses, List of computer term etymologies or really anything computer related;
- stuff about Nazis / WW2 / military things generally ...?
Am I missing something here? Is there no administrator / Wiki director who takes steps to ensure that some sort of overall balance of articles is maintained on Wikipedia? eg: more and fuller articles on literature, history (not just WW2 / wars), cultural things? can there not be a Wikipedia:WikiProject for eg substantially rationalising and reducing the amount of computer games related material?
I am not saying that any of these articles are not sufficiently notable - I couldn't care less about that; my point is that the distribution of articles by subject matter is frankly embarrassing
obviously the content reflects the nature of the people with spare time and inclination to write these articles: wiki editors are interested in computer games, they are generally not interested in writing about culture and stuff; equally it's easier to make an article which consists of a series of uninteresting facts (eg: list of Roman battles or List of wars and disasters by death toll), or describes your favourite episode of Dallas, than something more thought provoking;
but is no one worried about what kind of impression this gives to the rest of the world?
wiki editors seem to be so obsessed with wiki vandalism and tedious arguments about whether an article is adequately referenced or (horror!) contains someone's opinion; these are trivial concerns against the real issue: that (generally) wikipedia looks like it's been churned out by a bunch of high school students with too much time on their hands
Dr Spam (MD) 14:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Today's featured article on the pilot episode of "Smallville" prompts me to ask "Is a TV show or any of its episodes of sufficient importance to warrant an entry in encyclopedia ?" Recently I used the random article function and was surprised to see individual songs also coming up as full entries. That makes me wonder what percentage of entries in Wikipedia are songs or TV show episodes ?
Does this burden the Wikipedia with information that is not of interest to the majority of users ?
I think that a band or artist is sufficiently important to have an entry but not a song or album; those songs or albums can be incorporated into the artist's entry. Similarly, a TV show episode could be incorporated into a listing for the entire TV series (not even sure if the entire TV series should be a listing) or referred to in an actor's entry.
Any thoughts ? Paul Gilmurray 06:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Specifics as to when there should and shouldn't be articles of the type you mention are at Wikipedia:Television episodes and Wikipedia:Notability (music) 6SJ7 03:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
A few days ago the text "; remove section name if it does not apply" has been added to the "Edit summary" text on Wikipedia edit pages. There is a discussion about this under MediaWiki_talk:Summary and your participation would be appreciated. Cacycle 23:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Recently I randomly decided to try to expand on a previously deleted article. I was attacked by a sudden vfd and an army of "delete this!!" votes. I followed guidelines in Wikipedia and found substantial sources and established notability according to current policies. That was ignored, the article deleted, and my appeal was ignored. My point of this post though is not that article (and the many times I protested it's eventual deletion). My point is that I think Wikipedia has become a site where it is hard to establish new information. That article had real sources for it's information, journals, newspapers, etc... but because it had been deleted before and was for a crappy establishment, people became biased towards it and deleted my version of that article. How can we encourage a community of knowledge creators and still check for notability? Honestly I am really discouraged with the whole Wikipedia process. I'm sure this is a sign of people leaning too heavy on the delete policies. That will lead to Wikipedia's own rot. (The article that I tried to make, by the way, was about Pirate's Dinner Adventure) Nesnad 08:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the thoughts. Yes they were WP:RS. People discounted them because they were from a "hispanic magazine" and other POV nonsense. But I had many many reliable sources. Yes, I also linked to Youtube and review sites, but that was just trying to give a round picture. I did take it to Deletion Review (or atleast tried) but it was just buried by people saying I was not establishing notability and then confirmed as deletable. If sources in multiple magazines, business journals and what not aren't enough, what is? I really think this is a case of dogma and I don't know what to do. It's really quite frustrating. Nesnad 17:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I have created another proposal for a guideline of naming conventions for school articles. The original proposal became inactive and consensus was not established. This new proposal simplifies things a little, I would like some input at WT:NC(S). Camaron1 | Chris 17:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
How, can people here claim this is the English language wikipedia, when it would seem the official policy is to violate UK, and other countries laws. How can wikipedia justify taking an image from a British (or other country) website which clearly says "All text and images copyrighted by the Museum of xxx", then releasing it into the public domain under cover of {{ PD-Art}}, without even stating the source. Personally I believe it is illegal to do so in the USA also, but people disagree with this. How can en.wikipedia justify going against everything decided on the commons and all other wikimedia projects ? Do Americans feel no shame at taking an image that is clearly copyrighted with an explicit copyright tag on it, and then simply saying "I am American I do what I like". Many of the works pictured are older than the USA themselves, who are you to decide who owns the copyright to photos of them? How can this claim to be the English language wikipedia when it shows such blatant disrespect for the works and copyrights contracted by people in the very country the English language originated in ? This is no different than Iran releasing American films into the Public Domain and hosting warez sites over there, because they are unhappy about being rejected by the US from various international projects. Jackaranga 14:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that a policy will be needed about the representation of nationality on Wikipedia. Due to constant and massive ethnic-warring, even an honorable, encyclopedic, and accurate compromise such as
isn't enough to fend off warriors who want solely "British" (sovereign nation, passport, U.N. member, embassies) or "Scottish" (former nation, historical ethnic group) to appear. Each article becomes a battleground, lots of time is wasted concurrently, admins can't enforce anything without a policy on the topic. Surely something as clear as nationality, citizenship of a sovereign nation (having a passport or being able to get one) and the way to represent it, could and should be prescribed on Wikipedia on an objective basis like other dictionaries and encyclopedias?
Those interested in advance-preparation for this issue may want to consult the (con)current 3 RFCs on exactly the same point:
— Komusou talk @ 19:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. I came across an article that includes a link to a youtube music video. Is that ok, or is there a rule against it? -- 84.167.211.29 19:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't see how a rejected proposal can be a valuable source of information. If there is no guideline (why not?), how would you generally treat a link to a music video on youtube in the article about the band? -- 84.167.211.29 19:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Why should John Doe be responsible for deciding what's copyright infringed or not? As far as I'm concerned, the holder of the copyrights generally accept the opt-out policy of youtube. -- 84.167.211.29 20:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, thanks :) -- 84.167.211.29 21:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
What remedies are available for blatant POV warriors who delete large portions of text which does not meet their own POV? Is this vandalism? I have seen a small group of editors delete huge portions of referenced text on dozens of pages that they personally don't agree with. They cite policy for these deletions, but their policy reasons don't stand up to any scrutinty. It simply is a way to delete large portions of referenced text. What remedies are available, other than RfC and Arbcom?
I accept other peoples view points but destructive uncompromising deletions of large portions of text are terrible. One editor in particular, has been an editor for over a year and a half, and never actually adds anything to wikipedia, his only purpose is to actively get articles he doesnt like AfD'ed.
Any suggestions? User:travb 23:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Some articles have so many references/footnotes. E.g. George W Bush. I personally think that putting references into a separate article is a good idea for articles where over one third of the article is references. Currently, I don't think it is possible to directly place a ref into a separate article when we use [1]. So for example, for the George W Bush article, we'll have a page just for references, titled "Reference:George W Bush", and it's accessable at the top of the page next to the "discussion", "edit this page", "history", "watch". And whenever we use [2], the details of the reference will be automatically placed in "References:George W Bush". Oidia ( talk) 11:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The editors at Evolution experimented with reference space-saving gimmicks in June, 2007.
Greetings, I am posting here because I need some guidance. I am a member of the Article Rescue Squadron - We are a group setup to "rescue" articles that contain encyclopedic topics from deletion (we are not Wild-eyed inclusionists). How we have been "flagging" articles for rescue up until a week ago was to place the {{ Rescue}} tag on the article page - per our instructions and this example. There are three reasons why it is important that the rescue tag is displayed on the article page, verses on the talk page (which it has been suggested is the only acceptable place according to policy, but I am yet to see the applying policy) Anyway, here are the reasons:
So Simply put, I would like to request "official" permission to allow the Article Rescue Squadron to use this tag on article pages. - Fosnez 02:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I've started a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Protection_policy#Private_Salt_pages. Regards, Navou banter 19:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there a policy or guideline somewhere that covers templates used for navigation at the bottom of articles, and what should and shouldn't be included? I checked WT:NAV and didn't really find a definitive answer, but the reason I ask is that I came across an article tonight during Recent Changes patrol, and it had Template:Neighborhoods in Dubai at the bottom, which initially looked like this. Now, I've never seen templates that have commentary in them as this does, and while I hid the commentary in noinclude tags, another long-time editor removed them and placed the commentary in the box. It still seems as though this kind of information would better be placed in the Dubai article itself, but I'd like to know if there is a guideline for it to point to. Thanks in advance, Ariel ♥ Gold 05:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that posting nonsense on the Sandbox should be outlawed. I am not sure if you can do anything or not, but I would like a policy forbidding nonsense on the Sandbox. Laleena 00:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't new sections in talk pages be on the top? That way, the newer issues can be seen more readily rather than old ones that may have been resolved already. On that note, I think it should be policy to delete sections which have been answered. I'm sure there is a good reason for the current policy, but I'd like to know. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asderoff ( talk • contribs) 19:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there is a policy that directly addresses this issue and I would like to check that my opinion has (or doesn't have) consensus.
I don't think the disclaimer on Anonimu's user talk page is appropriate. It discourages discussion. It leaves no place for other editors to talk to this editor about his/her behaviour. I think the community consensus is that users should be allowed to start discussions and place warnings, and expect that they will be read by the associated user. I asked Anonimu to change this disclaimer to allow communication directly with him/her on the user talk page, but Anonimu declined and deleted the request. This disclaimer goes directly against the fourth pillar of Wikipedia, "Wikipedia has a code of conduct". That pillar directs us to "be open and welcoming"; this user talk page is neither of those. Sancho 17:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me most are in agreement that the restrictions that this disclaimer attempt to apply are inappropriate. Regardless of whether or not somebody declares that they are going to act this way (or if they act this way without prior notice, as in wbfergus's example), the behaviour described in this disclaimer (although not all of it) is not appropriate for several reasons.
Do we just proceed as in WP:IAR, hoping that the rest of the community also does, and ignore the portions of the disclaimer that restrict appropriate communication or do we require that this disclaimer be removed/amended? Does something need to be added to policy, or is this rare and common sense enough to deal with case-by-case? Sancho 16:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I love Wikipedia, its one of my top 5 sites, but don't you hate how there are so many rules that you have to file through when you post, there is more than a 50% chance it will be deleted? e.g. "What Wikipedia is not", etc, there are an infinite number of pages telling you the various Wikipedia guidelines. this includes the wikipedia cronies who wander around telling you what you wrote is not in the "spirit" of wikipedia, them delete, renovate, or move what you wrote. Come on! I think of Wikipedia as a simple, user-generated encyclopedia that I can always go to. But the more I explore, the more specifications and rules I find, and this can be quite discouraging, how goddamn strict it is. I do understand that consistency in articles is good and many of the changes the so-called experts make are for the good of the articles. But I feel that Wikipedia has gone over-the-top, and I say this: Wikipedia, I love you, but please stick to simplicity. Lose all the guidelines.
Does anyone follow me? Agree? Disagree? Know where else I can post this? Thanks. And please don't respond in Wikipedian language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gingerbreadmann ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
(Moved from WP:HELPDESK since is a policy issue and this is the page about policy. Od Mishehu 10:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC))
I'm probably asking this question in the wrong place, but I couldn't figure out where else to post to get a proper answer so, apologizes in advance. I recently uploaded some pictures for the
Grace Kelly page. A few days ago, an admin tagged some of the images (and removed one) from the article. One tag mentioned something about finding a free image instead of the image I uploaded of a poster of the subject. I went ahead and tagged that for deletion myself along with another image of a screenshot that was also tagged. Admittedly, I probably did go a bit overboard so, instead of getting making an issue about it, I removed them.
However, one picture is tagged for deletion because the admin believes it "doesn't add significantly to readers' understanding of grace kelly" [8] I could be wrong (and it's fine if I am), but I feel the picture does in fact add to the article. It's placed in a section that illustrates the info (it's a picture of the Grimaldi family in the mid 60s).
My question is, how and where do I dispute this? There's a tag I can place on the picture, but I'm not sure how to argue this because it's basically my opinion versus the admin's (who is, according to her talk page, on sabbatical). If the picture is that disruptive, I'll gladly take it down because I don't want to clutter up a page or make it incomprehensible. I'm a bit confused by this because I've seen articles with semi random pictures of a subject posted in sections that don't really pertain to what is being discussed and don't necessarily add to a readers' understanding of the subject. Thanks! Pinkadelica 08:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Recently I accidentally edited an article by pasting a section update I had organised for that article inadvertently over the entire article, previewing and believing that the preview I was shown was for the section I meant to edit. After realising my mistake I quickly reverted the copy, but someone seemed to be reading the pages’ history soon afterwards.
Another conscious Wikipedia contributor contacted me via my talk page and warned me about vandalism, although it was accidental. I have contacted this person to clarify my meaning but still have a query.
After searching Wikipedia for a policy regarding accidental vandalism I found nothing hence had a suggestion for a new Wikipedia policy. Basically, “If vandalism edits seem accidental, they’re not vandalism.” This would entail users looking at the surroundings of the vandalism, for example, where real vandalism, like swearing, deleting large sections and replacing it with malicious text, has not been used, and an account or IP with a clean record, which frequently contributes to the encyclopedia is used.
I feel that this would be beneficial for Wikipedia as it would reduce the number of disputes between editors, but that editors should still be made aware of their mistake in a laid-back fashion on their talk page with some type of template:
“You have appeared to inadvertently edited the article [[name]] and removed fundamental content relating to the subjects discussed within. It is politely asked that in future you preview your edit and ensure that you are fully aware of the consequence your edit will have. Thank you.” Ecopetition 16:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:FORUM notes that talk pages are not a forum for casually chatting between users, but it doesn't say what to do if a talk page has been cluttered by people chatting (such as on Talk:Meerkat Manor which is beset with kid editors who seem to use the talk page to chat and discuss the events of the show more than the actual article. Should the chatter be removed, notes posted about the "no forum" policy, or just ignored?
Semi-related (as it ties to the same article). Is a page like this User:Meerkat_Manor_Correctly which seems to be duplicating part of the main article with "correct" information against policy? The person whose page it is seems to have made it mostly because other editors won't let him get away with putting what he wants on the main article. Collectonian 17:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
We have been trying to forward the above to a point of consensus. If you can spare a few moments, please take a look and submit thoughts on the talk page. Thank you. Privatemusings 06:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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Should be subject to ESRB ratings, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.96.227 ( talk • contribs)
If we're going to start getting rid of things a lot of people find offensive, the article on Britney Spears won't last very long. -- Dweller 09:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Over the last few weeks, intense discussions have been ongoing at Wikipedia talk:No original research about the seciton on "Primary, Secondary and Tertiary Sources". It is proposed that this section be replaced with a new section entitled "Recognising the Right Source Materials". The intent of the proposal is not to change any of the basic premises of WP:NOR. The proposed change shifts the focus of the policy section in question from deliniating types of sources (and what sorts of statements they can be cited for) to deliniating types of statements (and choosing sources that properly support the statement). Instead of discussing "Primary, Secondary and Tertiary sources" it discusses "Statements of fact, Statements of opinion, and Statements of analysis/interpretation/conclusion).
The editors involved in the discussions seem to be close to consensus (on concept if not exact language), and the time has come to seek broader community involvement and comments. Blueboar 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) An attempt to present primary, secondary and tertiary sources independently of NOR has already been taking place at Wikipedia:Classification of sources. Vassyana 12:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I keep reading how the "trivia sections are discouraged under Wikipedia policy", and I wonder: why? Because it's not in keeping with the usual "encyclopedic" standards?
Let me tell you something: it's precisely "trivia" what sparks people's interest and helps KEEP the knowledge thus acquired where it belongs - in the memory (instead of in books).
So the only thing you should ever worry about is to keep the "trivia" accurate and free of slander. That's it.
If you choose to go the usual, old-fashioned "encyclopedic" way, you might end up like those old-fashioned encyclopedic volumes: gathering thick layers of dust.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.142.54.94 ( talk) 03:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The biggest problem with trivia sections is that they are almost completely Original Research and without sources, reliable or otherwise. And then when the addition is questioned, you get, "Go play the game", or "Go see the movie" or "Go rent the DVD", as if that's a reliable source. And a hundred single-line trivia entries like "In the movie Fred and Ethel go to Mars, when Fred is staring out of the space station and looking at Mons Olympus, he's standing just like Winston Churchill did in the famous painting by Grandma Moses". Corvus cornix 17:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
In my mind, there are different kinds of trivia. There's the stuff that is just pointless, like every single time any media has ever mentioned the subject (this is a lot of it). But there is also interesting, relevant trivia. For example, let's say that we're talking about Winston Churchill. The fact that, say, Bart Simpson once dressed up as Winston Churchill for a Simpson's Halloween episode (not true) is the kind of pointless, one-off trivia factoid that should be deleted. On the other hand, lets say that Winston Churchill is the most written about U.K. Prime Minister in history and there was a cite to a reliable source. Now, this is also trivia, but it's the kind that I think adds to one's understanding of the subject, even if it isn't essential. The problem I have with trivia policies is that they tend to be indiscriminate or vague and throw out the baby with the bathwater. - Chunky Rice 18:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The quotes above from WP:TRIVIA and WP:NOT are not at all contradictory. They shouldn't be removed=they should be cleaned up and merged into the article proper, increasing the readability and giving context to those items that are more than just "indirectly-related" to the topic at large. I can't tell you how many times I've gone seen a Trivia section popped off where 80% of it could be merged into the article proper seamlessly, and, since the bulk tend to just be popular culture references, reliably sourced with relative ease when appropriate. ( ex) This is more true in WP:BIO, geography, and science articles than in television episode articles, as the latter do tend to consist of a bunch of fan-cruft and unsourced/unsupported listings of potential "mistakes" in the subject work. MrZaius talk 09:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's a good example of this in action. Here ( [1]) is an old version of the Donald Bradman article, from 1st August this year, before a group started a push towards FA. There were 12 bullets of trivia. Some have been retained, but placed in appropriate sections, some were removed as unencyclopedic. It's hard to show the difference using a diff, because so much work's been done on the article, but here's one of the steps that made it happen, showing some deletion and some moving into existing and newly created encyclopedic sections. ( [2]). Hope that clears things up. -- Dweller 10:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
What is the policy concerning the citing of sources that can't be readily checked, such as citing a TV interview or DVD or an article that can't be found on the Web? A link to the policy would be nice as I can't find it anywhere I've looked.-- Bamadude 03:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the links & info. Wikipedia:Citation templates shows a template for using a video as a source, which works great for a video published on the Web and maybe even including a DVD that can be readily purchased on the open market (if you want to go that far to verify something), but it would be impossible to verify a TV interview as a source when you can't find it on the web, in a library, on a DVD or in an archive, so I would think per Wikipedia:Verifiability that non-archived TV interviews are not good sources for citations as they can't be readily verified by the reader --- comments, please?-- Bamadude 18:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but these are both bad examples above. If you have a 2nd source that's readily available, you don't need the video, Karanacs. And the point of having a citation is being able to readily verify it, not necessarily with a mouse click per se, but actually having the ability to do so, R.B. A one-off, non-archived TV interview is nearly-impossible for anybody to verify in my opinion. Lexis Nexis is subscription-only and not everyone has it as you realize and it's really impressive, but it doesn't have everything as noted here.-- Bamadude 19:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The reason I mentioned the Tonight Show was that I have heard an actor saying something on a interview that if it appeared in print it took a long time for it to be appear . Garda40 00:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the issue here. Of course non-web sources are fine. And sources that are hard to find are also fine. While web-based sources are nice in that anybody can look them up, rejecting non-web based sources simply because they are not immediately accessible is not founded on any Wikipedia policy and runs counter to several. - Chunky Rice 02:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I think some common sense is called for here. There are bad sources in all types of media, and reliable sources in all types. An article from the New York Times is a reliable source, whether it is on the website or from a 1942 edition. If a major presidential candidate declares his candidacy on the David Letterman Show, then that fact should be sourced to the show, not an account of it. For some topics, books are the best sources, and remain so for decades. (I write articles on illuminated manuscripts, sometimes the best source is for a particular manuscript is from the nineteenth century.) For topics that advance quickly, a website that can be updated may the best source. However, as has been noted above, given the mutable nature of the web, just because a website said something at the time it was referenced, doesn't mean that it says that now. Print sources have the advantage of being stable, if a certain edition of a work says something, it will say that until all of the copies are destroyed. The existence of any book can be verified via the web through Worldcat, the Library of Congress catalog, or other such sites. Almost any book can be acquired via inter-library loan from almost any library. (I have reguarly used ILL in my home-town public library, and have borrowed the 19th century works mentioned above. I live in town of 35,000 in Oklahoma.) Any editor can check any source, if the editor is willing to put forth the effort. Dsmdgold 03:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
(indent reset) Well, I actually did read the above discussion. I would generally tend to say that this is covered by the requirement that sources must be published. A DVD which was offered for sale to the general public is a fixed, tangible medium of publication just as much as a book is, and is likely to be available at libraries and the like, even if processes such as interlibrary loan must be used. On the other hand, a TV show which is not available in a fixed medium is not really published—for verification purposes, the source no longer exists, it only existed while it was being broadcast, and is not likely to be available through any means other than contacting the TV station (and they are perfectly free to deny requests to purchase a copy). In practice, it is not a source which actually allows verification. "Published" generally implies publication in a non-ephemeral medium. TV shows are broadcast, but not published, unless they are later offered on a fixed medium. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Somewhere in this thread, another important wiki-principle got left out, Wikipedia:Assume good faith. A hard to verify source is still verifiable (even if you have to buy a copy from the television studio, for example). But unless there is some reason suspect the statement being supported by the video citation is inaccurate, then there is little reason to worry about it. It is basically reasonable to assume the editor saw the show and reported it accurately, unless some evidence to the contrary exists. However, if the facts being supported by that citation are called into question (for example by other contradictory sources), then people should attempt to verify the citation, and if it can't be verified in a reasonable manner it should be removed. 169.229.142.143 22:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I am a new user and I haven't edited much since my employer didn't allow me to use my work computer for non-work related purposes and I didn't want my IP traced to his work. However, I was a frequent reader and follower of Wikipedia, and spent many hours at work reading different articles and policy pages in order to familiarize myself with the site. In any case, I was notified today that this would be my last week at this job because my fascist employer said I spent too much time on Wikipedia. I am very upset and was wondering if this was very common, and what I could and should do about it. Thanks, Haute Fuzze 22:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
For example this image contains a watermark for rocketman.org, which is where the image originated, but that site is quite spammy and I don't think it would be allowed as an external link (the first text on that site is "Official Rocketbelt Flight Gear On Sale Now!!!")
I'm more aware of this site because there have been attempts to promote this site in the Jet pack article, it was previously mentioned and linked to many times and the related Dan Schlund article looks like an advert to me. Should images like this that have spammy URLs watermarked be removed? Basil Richards 19:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
So, lets say there is a non-notable entity. Lets say, for arguement, some random Led Zeppelin tribute band that seems to play in a few clubs in Chicago. Lets also say, that this band, for the sake of arguement, is entirely non-notable. Now, what if said band creates a user page in the exact style of a wikipedia article for the sole purpose of advertising themselves? See User:In The Light (band). What do we do about this? -- Jayron32| talk| contribs 04:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello I have proposed a change to {{ PD-Art}}. At the moment the template ignores one of the basic property laws, by making it sound like if the uploader is in the USA, they may release a work into the Public Domain, even though the copyright is legally detained by a person in another country. If you are interested in discussing please see Template talk:PD-art#International issues, Thanks. Jackaranga 02:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
There is currently an uncertainty as to if we should put references and citations in the lead section of an article. The main problem arised when I do GA reviews and editors debate whether or not there should be references in the lead section. I personally think that there should be references in the lead, just to be consistent with the rest of the article. Oidia ( talk) 00:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The lead must be as accurate and as balanced as possible. Summarizing material for the lead can introduce several problems (1) improper synthesis (2) undue weight for obsolete theories in historical articles (2) unduly narrow definitions which exclude certain traditions in political, religious, philosophical articles (4) incomplete definitions which neglect important values in political, religious, or philosophical articles, etc. Rechecking the lead against the sources can help avoid/correct these problems. Jacob Haller 02:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I have always been neutral on the issue of citations in the lead. As LaraLove stated, they are not usually required, as the lead should ONLY contain information that is referenced elsewhere. As an exception to this, direct quotes, even in the lead, should always be cited, as well as statements of superlatives (so-and-so is the best selling, etc.) and other material likely to be highly controversial. However, if someone HAS cited in the lead material that is ALSO cited elsewhere, I would never advocate removing said citations. Basically, if the material is cited elsewhere, it does not HAVE to be cited in the lead, but even if it is, I would not advocate removing the extra citations.-- Jayron32| talk| contribs 04:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Some of us may not know that Wikipedia is not a trivia collection has been removed from WP:NOT.
This proposed guideline is so that WP:NOT#TRIVIA can be returned to Wikipedia. It is distinct from Wikipedia:Trivia sections in that it is a content policy, not a style policy. This guideline states that trivia may be removed.
While some editors will regard this guideline as obvious, even common sense, there is currently a tremendous amount of opposition to Wikipedia having limitations on trivia. As this proposal is specificly a content guideline, it may receive even greater opposition than Wikipedia:Trivia sections has been subject to in recent months.
I could use specific suggestions and general feedback. A guideline (which this is proposed to be) does not need to contradict itself, so contradictory philosophies need not be introduced, but I would also be interested in feedback from people have problems with excluding trivia, especially if they have specific suggestions on how this guideline can be made better.
(This message is cross-posted in Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not.) / edg ☺ ★ 14:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't get it. If there's a lot of opposition to the idea as you say, how would you expect there to be consensus for it to be a guideline? We don't create new guideline forks simply because people have rejected something or there's an edit war where it now resides. That's an "asking the other parent" problem. I find the new proposal redundant, unnecessarily long, full of policy creep, and laden with statements of unique personal opinions about how Wikipedia works. It's got a long way to go before it's ready for showtime as a guideline proposal, and I question whether it's wise or necessary. We already have a guideline on an identical topic, WP:TRIVIA. Wikidemo 15:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I think we do need a page for this, or we will be fighting about it indefinitely. But the present proposal is in any case too vague to be meaningful, and will be subject to continual attempts to adjust it for the various positions. There are however possible trivia guidelines that might be supportable, and that would at least approximate the present consensu--divided though it is. It would need to be
Very significant number/percentage of pages on Wikipedia can be put under some (respective) smaller geographical area (city/district/county etc), it would be better if one can know which other Wikipedians belong to the city he/she reside/belong helping in better collaboration for pages belonging to that city.
For this user account creation page can have combo box from which user can select the city/district/county name and this selection can be kept optional. For existing users, they may be notified in some other way to enter that (optional) info.
Vjdchauhan 18:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC).
I have seen that in the german wiki rhere has been a discussion on what should make up something like a "relevant software" [ [7]].
Is there a special coded policy for software established yet here? -- CasaMeaEuropea 01:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Since the Wikipedia logo is copyrighted, is this use a copyright violation? Corvus cornix 23:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks for the responses, everybody. Corvus cornix 16:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
This evening I stumbled across an editor's talk page where he and another editor conspire to edit war against another editor, avoiding WP:3RR by each only reverting twice. I'm assuming this is against policy, what should I do? Justin talk 21:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Having read about the #German Wikipedia limiting editing to trusted editors in a couple of newspapers, is there anything in the English Wikipedia area on the topic? How does it work - and how would newcomers become "trusted editors"?
"On first impression" the policy is likely to create problems - most people are ressonably responsible (and mistakes and fingers in a twist will always occur). The policy will not prevent edit wars and more subtle forms of "creative rewriting": there are too many backlogs for "all newbies/occasional users' entries to be double-checked for the (first 50) entries" or similar - some sort of compromise or visible means of working up to trusted editor status is required. Jackiespeel 15:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Could a link be put "somewhere more visible" to the above? If a form of kitemarking with clear reasoning being presented I think most people could see the point of the exercise (except when their "carefully prepared articles" fail to reach the standard (g)). Jackiespeel 15:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I wondered if there would be a discussion about his, was going to start one if there wasn't. This is copied word for word from the
Daily Mirror, admittedly not the most reliable of sources.
Online encyclopedia Wikipedia is stopping the public posting information on its website after complaints of doctoring. Instead, only "trusted editors" will be allowed access to it. Web users will still be able to suggest changes to entries - but they will have to be vetted first. The move comes after some info on US-based Wikipedia, viewed daily by 7% of all Internet users - was deliberately distorted, leading to complaints that the site is inaccurate. CIA staff changed the profiles of Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan and US Congress staff removed embarrassing and negative information about some senators. The new checking system will be tried out first on the German version of the site. Wikipedia's David Gerard Who? says "Nothing has been set in stone, but its almost certain that changes will be made to the German version of the site in November. Depending on how the trial goes, we will consider applying them to the English version." A screening device called WikiScanner Is it? is also being used and has picked out doctoring by the Vatican and Disney. And software rating the reliability of editors is also now in useSince when?
Is this just nonsense or is there some truth behind it? I was pretty sure that consensus had gone against his move many times, not to mention, it would dramatically reduce the number of edits, both with people unable to edit, and the "trusted editors"(Who would these be and would would pick these), would be utterly swamped with all the "suggestions", leaving little time for their own editing.--
Jac16888 21:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this up again. During the last discussion about the standardisation of nationality on Wikipedia, no consensus was reached. However, a big edit war has started at Colin McRae about whether he was Scottish or British. It saddens me to see an edit war on an article about someone recently deceased.
These edit wars will keep occurring until something is done about this problem. Surely there's some way that this long-term problem can be resolved? Readro 20:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Talk:El Dorado, Kansas is composed essentially of a project banner and political commentary, including the statement "Dark days lie ahead for El Dorado. The town remains sharply divided. All persons and business owners considering relocating to El Dorado should avoid doing so. Consider yourself forewarned." Is it appropriate to blank the page, except for the project banner? Nyttend 00:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know if police reports are copyrighted, since works of federal employees are, but I'm not so sure about the police. I would like to know this because I need to add such an image to the Kurt Cobain article.
Also, would his suicide note be copyrighted?-- Floaterfluss (talk) (contribs) 22:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I was a member a few years back, and doing my bit of editing. Then, not knowing my way around back then, ended up saving a page as a blank page. A minute later, it had been reverted. All good. In my messages though "Well done, your experiment worked. We've reverted it now. Be good next time. Bye now" Not quite the phrase, but time makes fools of us all.
The point i'm striving to is how patronising can Wikipedia get? Is this really the message you want to give? Oh, and anyone who tries to argue against an admin, well bad luck. If you don't get blocked, or similar, then you're threat gets deleted ESPECIALLY if you were winning the argument. And the link to patronising "Thread closed. Please do not feed the trolls."
This is just a general rant, but I'd like to know what you all think. Is patronising anyone on here who does something slightly unusual, like delete a page by accident, or make an edit that doesn't fit the strict dogma a good idea? Do the admins just close arguments they can't win? And i do mean proper arguments, not 'you smell of wee: no, you smell of wee' arguments.
Nin82 12:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The proper template for blanking is {{ uw-delete1}}, it produces this:
Hello, I'm Graham87. I noticed that you recently removed content without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks.
--— Random832 22:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Though mainspace warnings are valid and necessary in many cases, they do junk up the articles. So shouldn't such mainspace warnings be limited to only those situations where they are a necessary disclosure to readers rather than warnings to other editors? For example, the warnings on protected articles really detract from what may otherwise be a commendable and pristine article. Here's a case I'm talking about: Greek mythology. It's awarded Featured Article status and gets a subtle tiny star in the right corner. However, it also gets frequently vandalized, and the "award" it gets for that is a big ugly boxed message at the very top of the article with a solid "keep out" padlock icon which is 10 times larger than the FA star.
Can't we do better? Would it be so horrible to simply post the lock with a cute little padlock icon under or next to the FA star and save the big boxed protected article messages for the talk pages? I appreciate that we want to really maintain the "anyone can edit" atmosphere here, but sometimes I think that we go too far, always fluffing the pillows and warming the coffee for the editors, and overlook how it sometimes leaves a mess behind for the readers. Professor marginalia 22:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I am announcing a proposal to change certain aspects of WP:NFCC#10, the part of policy about image description pages. This proposal would simplify the data required on image description pages of nonfree images. It would also allow for certain common use rationales (like a book cover image on the article about the book) to be obtained from templates.
The proposal does not change any other part of the nonfree content criteria. But, as conversation on this talk page indicates, making the image description pages easier to format correctly would make it easier to bring images into compliance and make it easier to detect new images that don't provide required information.
The proposal is at Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria/Proposal and its talk page is Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria/Proposal. This proposal was developed by conversation among User:Anetode, User:Betacommand, User:Wikidemo and me. We hope others will look over it and discuss it on the associated talk page. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 20:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
memory is the diary that we all carry about with us. -oscar wilde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.115.228.111 ( talk) 13:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
About inserting images in dab pages, See discussion. Thanks. Lara_bran 10:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Interview Questions I am a student at the University of South Florida and I was writing a paper on the use of wikis in the corporate world. I was wondering if you could answer these five questions I need as support for my paper:
1.) Do you find wikis to be useful tools? Why?
2.) What do you use wikis for?
3.) Do you feel wikis can be used for educational purposes? Why or why not?
4.) Some wikis are used as discussion boards. Do you feel that they are being abused? Why or why not?
5.) In some businesses, wikis are being abused by employees. Employees are using as discussion boards. Some may even alter the wikis of their companies and put up false information, ultimately resulting in profit losses. How can this be prevented? Please respond as soon as possible. Thank you, Mario Abreu —Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperMar8 ( talk • contribs) 23:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The system analyst within Speaks again. People who feel they are attacked, people who feel harassed, people who feel others are uncivil have nowhere to go. Unlike 3RR violations the corresponding policies are seldom enforced against anybody that has been an editor for longer than a few months, and that has created an unpleasant environment at best. So i have drafted an essay on a system of enforcement that would empower the community to be the jury in cases like this while not driving anybody away. Please read and comment Community Court for community issues. -- Alexia Death the Grey 11:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Is adding GPS coordinates to articles via Google Earth considered original research and therefore against policy. I want to add GPS to a series of Denver articles so they can show up in Google Earth and don't know how else I would find the coordinates without the program (especially for places that wouldn't logically have any documentation of GPS coordinates like parks, streets etc.) Any advice? Vertigo700 23:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Have you tried searching the USGS? They have searchable coordinates for ~2 million places, accessible here. You mention parks as an example... it gives the coords of most non-tiny parks in my home county. Can't see why USGS data wouldn't be a reliable source. -- W.marsh 01:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
All comments above overlook the fact that geographical coordinate systems are not created equal. For Example Lat-Long data can vary significantly depending on the Datum that you use (e.g. NAD27 vs NAD83). There are literally hundreds of different datums used to anchor varying models of the earth's surface, which are used to generate different geographical coordinate systems. USGS maps rely on NAD83, with coordinates expressed most accurately using UTM values. "GPS coordinates" are simply the values of geographical coordinates observed with a given GPS units. The accuracy of these can vary widely based on chipset, overstory of the environment, height of horizon, etc. To the original issue, supplying GPS coordinate data can not be original research, since you are applying an existing system of measurement to a known location. You can look coordinates (of many different flavors) for anywhere on the world up using another data source. I know these things because I am a professor of geography who teaches GIS.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.101.13.42 ( talk • contribs)
{{ coor title dms}} with args like |33|53|20.86|S|151|13|31.41|E|region:AU-NSW_type:landmark, as in the Sydney Football Stadium article at the bottom. This is a "long" accepted practice on the wiki, and does not raise any major issues. As long as the location or street address of the object isn't contested/is widely available, it shouldn't be an issue. MrZaius talk 11:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I see that this proposed, and possibly unfinished page has been worked on by basically a single editor, who contributed extensively in June, not so much in July, and whose last contribution was 2 months ago. I also see a fair amount of recent opposes by established editors on its talk page. Has the time come for a final discussion on whether to accept, reject, or amend this proposal? Users are welcome to comment. Thanks. - Mtmelendez ( Talk| UB| Home) 12:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm new here and not sure how to make a suggestion for a policy change (or whatever this idea is thought to be at the Wiki)...anyway, I would like Wikipedia, in addition to the scholarly method used to show the pronounciation of a word, also include a much more accessable pronounciation guide that even an average person can use...for example, this is from the NY Times and shows their method for helping a reader pronounce a word: "Mr. Contois (pronounced con-TOYZ) undertook a campaign to improve safety awareness."
Now can't the Wikipedia request that contributors to articles, in addition to the method for showing pronounciation now used that only scholars understand, also use this NY Times technique so that regular folks, including kids, are able to easily figure out how to say a word correctly??
Just a suggestion, but would someone put this in the right place on your web site, if this is not the right forum, where this proposal can be properly considered by the Wikipedia community??
Thanks,
12.208.203.25 15:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)Martin A.
Hi, I'm trying to clarify if a yearbook can be used as a reliable source on an article. The subject of the article alleges to have gotten numerous death threats (which I believe to be true) and has stated that because of these threats his identity and location were to be kept out of articles and reports (although the location is likely to be compromised soon). His identity however has been kept out but now an editor is asserting they have a yearbook in which they can prove the subject's identity. I responded that that was original research but they cited that yearbooks aren't included. So, can a yearbook be used as a reliable source or is it us doing original research? Benjiboi 00:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, is it just me or does anyone else find the balance of article subjects on this website somewhat disturbing?
Some subjects are obviously favourites with the editors notably:
- tv (eg: Pilot (Smallville), today's featured article);
- celebs minor or otherwise
- music that goes with computer games, computer viruses, List of computer term etymologies or really anything computer related;
- stuff about Nazis / WW2 / military things generally ...?
Am I missing something here? Is there no administrator / Wiki director who takes steps to ensure that some sort of overall balance of articles is maintained on Wikipedia? eg: more and fuller articles on literature, history (not just WW2 / wars), cultural things? can there not be a Wikipedia:WikiProject for eg substantially rationalising and reducing the amount of computer games related material?
I am not saying that any of these articles are not sufficiently notable - I couldn't care less about that; my point is that the distribution of articles by subject matter is frankly embarrassing
obviously the content reflects the nature of the people with spare time and inclination to write these articles: wiki editors are interested in computer games, they are generally not interested in writing about culture and stuff; equally it's easier to make an article which consists of a series of uninteresting facts (eg: list of Roman battles or List of wars and disasters by death toll), or describes your favourite episode of Dallas, than something more thought provoking;
but is no one worried about what kind of impression this gives to the rest of the world?
wiki editors seem to be so obsessed with wiki vandalism and tedious arguments about whether an article is adequately referenced or (horror!) contains someone's opinion; these are trivial concerns against the real issue: that (generally) wikipedia looks like it's been churned out by a bunch of high school students with too much time on their hands
Dr Spam (MD) 14:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Today's featured article on the pilot episode of "Smallville" prompts me to ask "Is a TV show or any of its episodes of sufficient importance to warrant an entry in encyclopedia ?" Recently I used the random article function and was surprised to see individual songs also coming up as full entries. That makes me wonder what percentage of entries in Wikipedia are songs or TV show episodes ?
Does this burden the Wikipedia with information that is not of interest to the majority of users ?
I think that a band or artist is sufficiently important to have an entry but not a song or album; those songs or albums can be incorporated into the artist's entry. Similarly, a TV show episode could be incorporated into a listing for the entire TV series (not even sure if the entire TV series should be a listing) or referred to in an actor's entry.
Any thoughts ? Paul Gilmurray 06:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Specifics as to when there should and shouldn't be articles of the type you mention are at Wikipedia:Television episodes and Wikipedia:Notability (music) 6SJ7 03:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
A few days ago the text "; remove section name if it does not apply" has been added to the "Edit summary" text on Wikipedia edit pages. There is a discussion about this under MediaWiki_talk:Summary and your participation would be appreciated. Cacycle 23:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Recently I randomly decided to try to expand on a previously deleted article. I was attacked by a sudden vfd and an army of "delete this!!" votes. I followed guidelines in Wikipedia and found substantial sources and established notability according to current policies. That was ignored, the article deleted, and my appeal was ignored. My point of this post though is not that article (and the many times I protested it's eventual deletion). My point is that I think Wikipedia has become a site where it is hard to establish new information. That article had real sources for it's information, journals, newspapers, etc... but because it had been deleted before and was for a crappy establishment, people became biased towards it and deleted my version of that article. How can we encourage a community of knowledge creators and still check for notability? Honestly I am really discouraged with the whole Wikipedia process. I'm sure this is a sign of people leaning too heavy on the delete policies. That will lead to Wikipedia's own rot. (The article that I tried to make, by the way, was about Pirate's Dinner Adventure) Nesnad 08:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the thoughts. Yes they were WP:RS. People discounted them because they were from a "hispanic magazine" and other POV nonsense. But I had many many reliable sources. Yes, I also linked to Youtube and review sites, but that was just trying to give a round picture. I did take it to Deletion Review (or atleast tried) but it was just buried by people saying I was not establishing notability and then confirmed as deletable. If sources in multiple magazines, business journals and what not aren't enough, what is? I really think this is a case of dogma and I don't know what to do. It's really quite frustrating. Nesnad 17:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I have created another proposal for a guideline of naming conventions for school articles. The original proposal became inactive and consensus was not established. This new proposal simplifies things a little, I would like some input at WT:NC(S). Camaron1 | Chris 17:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
How, can people here claim this is the English language wikipedia, when it would seem the official policy is to violate UK, and other countries laws. How can wikipedia justify taking an image from a British (or other country) website which clearly says "All text and images copyrighted by the Museum of xxx", then releasing it into the public domain under cover of {{ PD-Art}}, without even stating the source. Personally I believe it is illegal to do so in the USA also, but people disagree with this. How can en.wikipedia justify going against everything decided on the commons and all other wikimedia projects ? Do Americans feel no shame at taking an image that is clearly copyrighted with an explicit copyright tag on it, and then simply saying "I am American I do what I like". Many of the works pictured are older than the USA themselves, who are you to decide who owns the copyright to photos of them? How can this claim to be the English language wikipedia when it shows such blatant disrespect for the works and copyrights contracted by people in the very country the English language originated in ? This is no different than Iran releasing American films into the Public Domain and hosting warez sites over there, because they are unhappy about being rejected by the US from various international projects. Jackaranga 14:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that a policy will be needed about the representation of nationality on Wikipedia. Due to constant and massive ethnic-warring, even an honorable, encyclopedic, and accurate compromise such as
isn't enough to fend off warriors who want solely "British" (sovereign nation, passport, U.N. member, embassies) or "Scottish" (former nation, historical ethnic group) to appear. Each article becomes a battleground, lots of time is wasted concurrently, admins can't enforce anything without a policy on the topic. Surely something as clear as nationality, citizenship of a sovereign nation (having a passport or being able to get one) and the way to represent it, could and should be prescribed on Wikipedia on an objective basis like other dictionaries and encyclopedias?
Those interested in advance-preparation for this issue may want to consult the (con)current 3 RFCs on exactly the same point:
— Komusou talk @ 19:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. I came across an article that includes a link to a youtube music video. Is that ok, or is there a rule against it? -- 84.167.211.29 19:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't see how a rejected proposal can be a valuable source of information. If there is no guideline (why not?), how would you generally treat a link to a music video on youtube in the article about the band? -- 84.167.211.29 19:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Why should John Doe be responsible for deciding what's copyright infringed or not? As far as I'm concerned, the holder of the copyrights generally accept the opt-out policy of youtube. -- 84.167.211.29 20:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, thanks :) -- 84.167.211.29 21:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
What remedies are available for blatant POV warriors who delete large portions of text which does not meet their own POV? Is this vandalism? I have seen a small group of editors delete huge portions of referenced text on dozens of pages that they personally don't agree with. They cite policy for these deletions, but their policy reasons don't stand up to any scrutinty. It simply is a way to delete large portions of referenced text. What remedies are available, other than RfC and Arbcom?
I accept other peoples view points but destructive uncompromising deletions of large portions of text are terrible. One editor in particular, has been an editor for over a year and a half, and never actually adds anything to wikipedia, his only purpose is to actively get articles he doesnt like AfD'ed.
Any suggestions? User:travb 23:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Some articles have so many references/footnotes. E.g. George W Bush. I personally think that putting references into a separate article is a good idea for articles where over one third of the article is references. Currently, I don't think it is possible to directly place a ref into a separate article when we use [1]. So for example, for the George W Bush article, we'll have a page just for references, titled "Reference:George W Bush", and it's accessable at the top of the page next to the "discussion", "edit this page", "history", "watch". And whenever we use [2], the details of the reference will be automatically placed in "References:George W Bush". Oidia ( talk) 11:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The editors at Evolution experimented with reference space-saving gimmicks in June, 2007.
Greetings, I am posting here because I need some guidance. I am a member of the Article Rescue Squadron - We are a group setup to "rescue" articles that contain encyclopedic topics from deletion (we are not Wild-eyed inclusionists). How we have been "flagging" articles for rescue up until a week ago was to place the {{ Rescue}} tag on the article page - per our instructions and this example. There are three reasons why it is important that the rescue tag is displayed on the article page, verses on the talk page (which it has been suggested is the only acceptable place according to policy, but I am yet to see the applying policy) Anyway, here are the reasons:
So Simply put, I would like to request "official" permission to allow the Article Rescue Squadron to use this tag on article pages. - Fosnez 02:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I've started a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Protection_policy#Private_Salt_pages. Regards, Navou banter 19:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Is there a policy or guideline somewhere that covers templates used for navigation at the bottom of articles, and what should and shouldn't be included? I checked WT:NAV and didn't really find a definitive answer, but the reason I ask is that I came across an article tonight during Recent Changes patrol, and it had Template:Neighborhoods in Dubai at the bottom, which initially looked like this. Now, I've never seen templates that have commentary in them as this does, and while I hid the commentary in noinclude tags, another long-time editor removed them and placed the commentary in the box. It still seems as though this kind of information would better be placed in the Dubai article itself, but I'd like to know if there is a guideline for it to point to. Thanks in advance, Ariel ♥ Gold 05:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that posting nonsense on the Sandbox should be outlawed. I am not sure if you can do anything or not, but I would like a policy forbidding nonsense on the Sandbox. Laleena 00:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't new sections in talk pages be on the top? That way, the newer issues can be seen more readily rather than old ones that may have been resolved already. On that note, I think it should be policy to delete sections which have been answered. I'm sure there is a good reason for the current policy, but I'd like to know. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asderoff ( talk • contribs) 19:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there is a policy that directly addresses this issue and I would like to check that my opinion has (or doesn't have) consensus.
I don't think the disclaimer on Anonimu's user talk page is appropriate. It discourages discussion. It leaves no place for other editors to talk to this editor about his/her behaviour. I think the community consensus is that users should be allowed to start discussions and place warnings, and expect that they will be read by the associated user. I asked Anonimu to change this disclaimer to allow communication directly with him/her on the user talk page, but Anonimu declined and deleted the request. This disclaimer goes directly against the fourth pillar of Wikipedia, "Wikipedia has a code of conduct". That pillar directs us to "be open and welcoming"; this user talk page is neither of those. Sancho 17:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me most are in agreement that the restrictions that this disclaimer attempt to apply are inappropriate. Regardless of whether or not somebody declares that they are going to act this way (or if they act this way without prior notice, as in wbfergus's example), the behaviour described in this disclaimer (although not all of it) is not appropriate for several reasons.
Do we just proceed as in WP:IAR, hoping that the rest of the community also does, and ignore the portions of the disclaimer that restrict appropriate communication or do we require that this disclaimer be removed/amended? Does something need to be added to policy, or is this rare and common sense enough to deal with case-by-case? Sancho 16:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I love Wikipedia, its one of my top 5 sites, but don't you hate how there are so many rules that you have to file through when you post, there is more than a 50% chance it will be deleted? e.g. "What Wikipedia is not", etc, there are an infinite number of pages telling you the various Wikipedia guidelines. this includes the wikipedia cronies who wander around telling you what you wrote is not in the "spirit" of wikipedia, them delete, renovate, or move what you wrote. Come on! I think of Wikipedia as a simple, user-generated encyclopedia that I can always go to. But the more I explore, the more specifications and rules I find, and this can be quite discouraging, how goddamn strict it is. I do understand that consistency in articles is good and many of the changes the so-called experts make are for the good of the articles. But I feel that Wikipedia has gone over-the-top, and I say this: Wikipedia, I love you, but please stick to simplicity. Lose all the guidelines.
Does anyone follow me? Agree? Disagree? Know where else I can post this? Thanks. And please don't respond in Wikipedian language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gingerbreadmann ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
(Moved from WP:HELPDESK since is a policy issue and this is the page about policy. Od Mishehu 10:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC))
I'm probably asking this question in the wrong place, but I couldn't figure out where else to post to get a proper answer so, apologizes in advance. I recently uploaded some pictures for the
Grace Kelly page. A few days ago, an admin tagged some of the images (and removed one) from the article. One tag mentioned something about finding a free image instead of the image I uploaded of a poster of the subject. I went ahead and tagged that for deletion myself along with another image of a screenshot that was also tagged. Admittedly, I probably did go a bit overboard so, instead of getting making an issue about it, I removed them.
However, one picture is tagged for deletion because the admin believes it "doesn't add significantly to readers' understanding of grace kelly" [8] I could be wrong (and it's fine if I am), but I feel the picture does in fact add to the article. It's placed in a section that illustrates the info (it's a picture of the Grimaldi family in the mid 60s).
My question is, how and where do I dispute this? There's a tag I can place on the picture, but I'm not sure how to argue this because it's basically my opinion versus the admin's (who is, according to her talk page, on sabbatical). If the picture is that disruptive, I'll gladly take it down because I don't want to clutter up a page or make it incomprehensible. I'm a bit confused by this because I've seen articles with semi random pictures of a subject posted in sections that don't really pertain to what is being discussed and don't necessarily add to a readers' understanding of the subject. Thanks! Pinkadelica 08:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Recently I accidentally edited an article by pasting a section update I had organised for that article inadvertently over the entire article, previewing and believing that the preview I was shown was for the section I meant to edit. After realising my mistake I quickly reverted the copy, but someone seemed to be reading the pages’ history soon afterwards.
Another conscious Wikipedia contributor contacted me via my talk page and warned me about vandalism, although it was accidental. I have contacted this person to clarify my meaning but still have a query.
After searching Wikipedia for a policy regarding accidental vandalism I found nothing hence had a suggestion for a new Wikipedia policy. Basically, “If vandalism edits seem accidental, they’re not vandalism.” This would entail users looking at the surroundings of the vandalism, for example, where real vandalism, like swearing, deleting large sections and replacing it with malicious text, has not been used, and an account or IP with a clean record, which frequently contributes to the encyclopedia is used.
I feel that this would be beneficial for Wikipedia as it would reduce the number of disputes between editors, but that editors should still be made aware of their mistake in a laid-back fashion on their talk page with some type of template:
“You have appeared to inadvertently edited the article [[name]] and removed fundamental content relating to the subjects discussed within. It is politely asked that in future you preview your edit and ensure that you are fully aware of the consequence your edit will have. Thank you.” Ecopetition 16:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:FORUM notes that talk pages are not a forum for casually chatting between users, but it doesn't say what to do if a talk page has been cluttered by people chatting (such as on Talk:Meerkat Manor which is beset with kid editors who seem to use the talk page to chat and discuss the events of the show more than the actual article. Should the chatter be removed, notes posted about the "no forum" policy, or just ignored?
Semi-related (as it ties to the same article). Is a page like this User:Meerkat_Manor_Correctly which seems to be duplicating part of the main article with "correct" information against policy? The person whose page it is seems to have made it mostly because other editors won't let him get away with putting what he wants on the main article. Collectonian 17:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
We have been trying to forward the above to a point of consensus. If you can spare a few moments, please take a look and submit thoughts on the talk page. Thank you. Privatemusings 06:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)