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Often, I come upon articles that have (or consist entirely of) trivial references to an article subject in various media. I think that Wikipedia needs a policy on this. I think that they should be aggressively removed, per my essay here. I welcome community feedback. -- Eyrian 19:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
All interested parties: Please see Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Not a trivia collection. -- Eyrian 21:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Look, could someone please start up a wiki where this stuff can be kept? Because I'm sick of this mania for removing anything that might actually be useful. - Multivitamin 22:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
There are articles where historical or legendary figures play such a large role in popular culture that an article such as these seems absolutely necessary, even if the current article sucks and is in dire need of improvement. (E.g. Adolf Hitler in popular culture). With mythological or legendary creatures, current appearances and uses are in some sense as valid as "classical" ones, and should stay or merge (E.g. phoenix in popular culture). Then there are ones that seem ridiculous, mostly because the title subject of the fork is popular culture in the first instance. (E.g. Britney Spears in popular culture). People who want all of this material gone don't see a difference.
The anti popular-culture agenda has been misused. Notoriously so, in the case of Richard Dawkins, where a group of his groupies refuse to allow his article to admit that he was satirized in the South Park episode " Go God Go", despite the fact that South Park's audience exceeds that of Dawkins's scientific works or atheist screeds by at least a factor of ten.
I think it's time to step back from the whole business. Vague and litigious words like trivia and indiscriminate should not be used in guidelines. The wikilawyering that claims that recognizing allusions is "original research" needs to be fish-slapped; noticing these things is neither original to the editor who sees them, nor pushing an agenda in the typical case, and a citation to the work in which an allusion appears is reference enough. I'd be prepared to take the deletion of "trivia" more seriously if and when some greater sensitivity is shown to the variety of subjects involved here. - Smerdis of Tlön 19:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
As Wikipedians, we all agree to adhere to the encyclopedia's core values of verifiability and notability: our articles must be accurate and their subjects must be significant. We regularly delete articles that fail to demonstrate these tenants, why should we keep articles of list of things that fail to demonstrate them? I agree with Eyrian that in popular culture sections are a bane to the encyclopedia, and that their systematic removal is in the best interest of our cause.
Instead, what seems to happen now is not this. The practice seems to have taken root to fork out these edits into separate "in popular culture" articles, which are then proposed for deletion en masse in episodic spasms. This is not as good, for multiple reasons; most seriously, it leads to the potential loss of valuable contributions.
Phoenix in popular culture is a perfect example. As a mythical critter, the phoenix exists only as long as people remember and rehearse the legend to yet another generation. The use of the phoenix as a heraldic symbol belongs in the article. So, for that matter, do at least some appearances of the legend in well known works of fiction. We can trust people to use their brains; if something is called a phoenix and it seems associated with fire and rebirth, it belongs somehow.
No, not every such appearance should be catalogued; but deleting the data en masse and wiping it from the history is an even worse thing to do. - Smerdis of Tlön 04:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
In the "X is mentioned in Y" sort of trivia, we already have a linkage on this, assuming that it's important enough for the article on "Y" to refer to "X" in its text. I refer to the "What links here" item in the toolbox.
The phrase "in popular culture" is also a problem because it implies that these references are somehow special. I note that Phoenix in popular culture, for instance, completely ignores this and puts in everything from the church fathers to Harry Potter. I dont'see the need for the segregation, especially as it is apparently oft ignored anyway. Mangoe 18:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
When I was looking at the Linux article today, I found that this article was about systems that use the Linux kernel, and that there's a separate article ( Linux kernel) which was about the actual kernel itself. This made me think for a second. While systems that utilize the Linux kernel are more likely to be what the user is looking for when he types "Linux" into the search box, there's a certain sense of correctness about showing the article about the original meaning of the word instead. Long story short: "Linux" has always been the Linux kernel—that's the origin of the name—while systems that use the Linux kernel came a while afterwards—should an encyclopedia not have a rule for linking to the original term as often as possible, despite the derived term being more popular?
Another example. A " medical emergency" is defined as an injury or illness that poses immediate peril to a person. Medical Emergency is an Australian reality TV show. While the TV show may be the more popular thing that the average user looks for (and I don't know whether it is, but it just may be), it's clear (in my opinion) that the term "medical emergency" should link to the article about medicine, and not to the article about the television show. (Currently, it does link to the article about medicine, the original meaning of the term, unlike the Linux example.)
And I'm not sure if this discussion has been done already. It probably has, but I'm just thinking out loud here. I think that linking to the original meaning of a search term in most cases (there will always be exceptions) is a bit more encyclopedic and pronounced about which phenomenon is the actual primary definition of that term. —msikma ( user, talk) 16:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I would appreciate it, if you could give me your thoughts on this essay: Accusations of collaboration: 3RR hurts Wikipedia. Comments are welcome both here and in the essay talk. -- Alexia Death the Grey 09:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Members of the community may be interested in knowing that there is currently a discussion at Naming Convention's Talk Page over the guidelines for naming US city articles. The debate starts at the section called "Requested Moves", and continues through several subsections. New England Review Me! 01:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I posted my question over on the Spam project but I'm not sure that was the right place. Radiant! suggested I ask here. I fully understand the reasons, but I'd like to know if there's a specific page/guideline/policy that covers users adding photobucket.com links to articles (most often to the "external links" section, linking to pictures at photobucket of the subject). I know that the uploading, or using of those images is covered under copyvio policy, and I understand the theoretical reason for not allowing them to be in links, but I'd like to be able to cite a specific policy, if asked. Does one exist? Thanks in advance! Ariel♥ Gold 11:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there any rule against playing out the 3RR by simply calling up wiki-friends to help "revert the POV"? I mean when user:X (sorry if this exists) dislikes Y's edits, as usual, calles it POV or original research, whatever - you all know this situation -, then when a revertwar erupts, and he's done with his 3 rvs, calls his mates to "finish the job", and play that "enemy" out, then of course report Y as 3RR offender. Is there any? Cos' I accidentally just found such a case... And in fact 4 others (!!) since... by checking the 3RR report page's content, reported (and reporter) users' actions, and reported pages' histories. -- Ezsaias 18:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
“ | Wikipedia is too often like the wild west, where the ability to shout the loudest, swing the hardest, and outlast the other fellow counts more than the quality and depth of one's sources.......................................... Raymond Arritt | ” |
Thanks for the answers. If I understand it right, there's some platform where a suspected "cabal" (I'd rather say: "a group of ppl with common interests and/or ideas abt a certain thing" even if it's longer a bit :) ) can be investigated. Wikipedia is too big, and there are more than one creationist user, and more than one evolutionist. And if they come together... :) But in a real world, it could happen, that for example for some reason, the creationst became the overwhelming majority, so all the evolutionist became banned for POV pushing, and all the related articles are became overwritten from a cr. POV. This is what I see in other themes, overwritten from a certain POV, and the...let me call balance of them is banned or retired because of them. (please, stick to my problem, don't start some religious war).
However I had a second question about recruiting people for revert warring. Is it forbidden, or not? -- Ezsaias 22:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a problem, that I see many people face, just like I do. See the section below for a proposal to fix it.-- Alexia Death the Grey 09:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I've got the same sort of Question.
I added a link to the Queenstown (NZ) site which was critical over the amount of development. http://www.boston.com/travel/articles/2004/11/07/new_zealand_at_a_crossroads?pg=full It was unceremoniously deleted. The site itself is a brochure for Queenstown, there are so many people with a vested interest hotels, property developers, tour companies etc, etc... Almost impossible to say a bad thing, but Wikipedia isn't a glossy brochure to sell bacon slice apartments ??? Yonk 08:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
An FA reviewer of Richard Hawes, an article I edited heavily and nominated for FA, has commented that I seem to have "gone nuts" with the footnotes, to the point that it impedes readability. It is true that almost every sentence is footnoted, and a few have two (to avoid mid-sentence citations). However, I felt like having a footnote on almost every sentence was the best way to avoid complaints that such-and-such wasn't cited properly, especially since I've had to return most of the sources to libraries far and wide by now. This mentality was reinforced by the GA reviewer of Happy Chandler, who stated: "Presumably you'll be taking this article to FAC in the near future. If so, then building up your citations to the "almost every sentence" point certainly won't hurt anything."
I've already used paragraph-at-a-time citation where every sentence in the paragraph comes from the same source. The FA reviewer on the Hawes article suggested that when most of the citations in a paragraph are from the same source, that I should move all of them to the end of the paragraph. While this probably would improve readability, I'm not sure it's in line with citation policies, a subject on which I am clearly not an expert. So I refer the matter to my more experienced and better versed wiki-brethren (and sistren?). What say you? Acdixon ( talk • contribs • count) 13:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the main body is clearly overcited. If any of the general references listed at the bottom of the article will support the fact, it doesn't need a sentence-specific citation (for example, names of parents) A cite at the end of that paragraph would be fine, but I wouldn't even consider that those sentences needed cites. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 14:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me, actually. It's not like you're citing every sentence to the same ref. It doesn't impede readability to me: I just skim over the blue numbers...-- SarekOfVulcan 17:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
.reference { display: none; }
As a disinterested reader, I have to say that to my eyes the article is extremely overcited. I don't see the need for a citation for the subject's nother's name, or the other totally uncontroversial biographical information. And while I'm used to reading scientific papers, I did find the constant footnote numbers distracting. I though I was going to come down on the side of the author, but I'm surprised to find myself itching to pick up a red pencil. If it were me, I would strike out at least three quarters of the citations, and that's a conservative guess. The article itself looks like a good one, stained by the excessive caution of the author. A citation or two in each paragraph shows that someone has made a good effort, and a good reference list at the end supports that impression. Anything more is just make-work to this reader. MarkinBoston 04:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems that arbcom is technically on the list of solutions for dispute resolution. However, it apparently cannot resolve disputes. I propose changing this, because apparently, there are some cases when all other steps in dispute resolution just fail for one reason or another. Of corse, it should only be done only after all other measures in WP:DR have been both tried and failed, and at the agreement of all involved parties to abide by the arbcom decision.-- Sefringle Talk 23:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely with Sefringle., We desperately need some higher court of appeal for resolving content disputes. Otherwise what are dispute resolutions for? Not all disputes can be solved by addressing user conduct. Sometimes, both sides show good etiquette, but simply cannot come to resolution about some highly volatile issue. -- Steve, Sm8900 02:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this. It goes against a fundamental part of Wikipedia which is that content disputes are resolved through discussion and concensus and not by allowing certain editors to make excecutive decisions on content. I recall a comment by Jimbo that even he was scared to edit Nupedia. Also, this seems a bit WP:CREEPy to me. MartinDK 06:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
It is obvious that giving a court the right to decide on content is dangerous and could give more bad results that good ones (censorship - oriented editorial lines) but could not a court state that some choices do not respect wikipedia principles ?
For example, if it is clear that a court cannot decide about the reality or pertinence of an information, cannot it take decisions or give advices concerning the formulation's compliance with fundamental principles ?
Alithien 09:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
No need. If the issue is whether a source is reliable, ask at the reliable sources noticeboard. If the issue is BLP, ask at the BLP noticeboard. If we come up with another type of issue for which clearly correct answers are likely to be forthcoming and that regularly occurs, we'll set up another noticeboard for that type of issue. Those are good, functioning, and non-court like mechanisms that give advice. Article RfCs sometimes succeed - and would more often if more editors paid attention to them.
Where things fail is where there are large factions of strongly opinionated pro/anti editors some of whom are not dedicated to NPOV. Group dynamics make achievement of consensus very difficult until there is an agreement to seek NPOV. Sometimes that requires weeding editors who really don't want an NPOV article out of the discussion. GRBerry 16:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't like it, it's WP:CREEPy, and reminds me of something out of Animal Farm. All editors are equal, but some editors are more equal that others. Not a path we want to start down. -- 146.115.58.152 18:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, we'll give arbcom the power to block editors who they believe are causing the problem, and thus we give them the power to decide who wins the dispute, since they can just block the opposition, yet we won't let them just resolve the dispute by executive order. Seems a bit ironic.-- Sefringle Talk 04:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Over at WP:NYCPT, we have been trying to reach a consensus on how New York City Subway stations should be named, because the subway system uses various names and punctuation formats for its stations, and users have "move-warred" articles in the absence of an agreed-upon guideline. The proposed convention is at Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/New York City Subway/Station naming convention. TLK 'in 08:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about article removal. A company that I work for has an article on Wikipedia that meets the notability guidelines for an article and is a relatively extensive article. I was recently asked, because I use wikipedia frequently, if the company were unhappy with the article, would it be able to have the article removed? If so, how could that be accomplished? 131.230.103.184 04:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your response. On a related issue, if the article in question were rated as GA quality, would removal of any unsourced statement by editors, without pressure from the company, be considered vandalism? Or, would this constitute keeping the article clean? 131.230.103.184 04:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if this is too trivial or has been discussed before, but do we have a style guideline for how to write policy and guideline pages?
I'm thinking, when to use bolds or italics, standard table and bullet point styles, how to distinguish the effective part of the policy from (i) justifications of the policy, (ii) explanations of how to comply, (iii) citations or quotes form other policy pages, and (iv) examples. For example, WP:NONFREE is pretty long and messy, and looks like it could use better headings and organization, and perhaps breaking the "law" section out to an essay or separate page. Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion has it all, bold, italics, two tables, and (green text!)
Maybe some more serious requirements, like when to enumerate things versus when to use a category, passive voice versus active or imperative, conditional versus certain. The notion that policy pages are for broad universal rules, guideline pages for how those rules apply to different situations (or is that really the case?). To make up an example, "Spam should not be placed in the main space, talk pages, user pages, or anywhere else on Wikipedia" should read "Spam is not allowed on any Wikipedia page."
Is that sort of thing collected anywhere and should it be? Wikidemo 17:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place at WP:COI/N (Conflict of Interest Noticeboard). One admin has consented to keeping it in the open there. Two non-admin users have attempted to hide it from general view. I assume that it is fair for me to revert the attempts to hide the material, at least until an administrator is the one who hides it. -- Dude Manchap 16:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I heard that the person who is in charge of the Wikimedia Foundation's finances is the very same person who is in charge of the for-profit Wikia, Inc.'s finances. Is that true? -- Dude Manchap 03:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi again Dude. A few clarifications: you posted to ask whether there's a conflict of interest but haven't supplied much information. Normally requests to this board cite specific activity and evidence. And normally there's an onsite edit history to reference. If this person actually has registered and edits in a way that reflects a conflict of interest, this noticeboard might be able to accomplish something. If the conflict of interest relationship doesn't extend to actual editing activity then I have no direct power and only a little influence. Yet as the founder of Category:Eguor admins I'm particularly open to this type of request. Sure, why not investigate a Wikipedia/Wikia COI? Burden of evidence rests squarely on your shoulders. Go for it if it's particularly important to you. Just expect to shoulder most of the work yourself. I'll check it out, see if there's anything I can do about it, and possibly ask for broader input. That's as fair as I can be. Durova Charge! 15:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Looking over those five links, two of them are specifically legal issues outside my expertise. I have no qualification to evaluate them. Joe Szlilagyi's blog is hardly a reliable source and another on-wikipedia thread was started by someone who's expended his credibility also. The techcrunch.com article holds water, in my opinion. What exactly are you seeking? If the basic complaint regards financial relationships at that level, then the most I could do would be to ask the WMF board to review this matter, and possibly to ask someone to institute nofollow to outgoing links to Wikia. My sysop tools would be useless to address this. Or is more forthcoming? Durova Charge! 17:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) To clarify for newcomers to this thread, we've agreed to refer discussion here from the other locations because this looks like the kind of issue best addressed by community input and (possibly) petition to the WMF board. Durova Charge! 17:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I am sort of confused. Yes, Wikia and Wikipedia share a number of people. Yes, there are some aspects of cozy relationship. That is public information.
If the accusation is that there's a potential COI, then yes, but everyone's aware of it, from the Board to individual admins and editors who bother to pay attention. It's possible we'd all miss some sort of actual conflict or improper behavior, but I haven't seen any.
If you're suggesting such is going on, then please provide us some more specific proof.
If you're worried about it, ask board members if they can let you know what they're doing to review potential conflicts of interest. Georgewilliamherbert 19:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I would like to understand and get more information as to how would I go about publishing a glossary on to WIKIpedia. My company and other people from other high tech insdustries have a long list of terms associated with B2B technology standards that we would like to publish on here. Is there any upfront cost if any?
I appreciate any guidence and help on this matter.
thank you karen —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.107.248.220 ( talk) 14:12, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
I proposed in WP:BIO about wikiprojects roles in borderline BIO cases, which has mainly to do with minor league players but it could be expanded as such. Wikipedia talk:Notability (people), the last section. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 20:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Currently the Wikipedia:Banning policy states:
If a banned user asks to have something included, does that really mean that all of the sudden everyone is forbidden from including it? If that were the case, a banned user could effectively censor just by asking to have the material he or she wishes to censor included. I'm sure that can not be the intent of the policy. Can we rephrase this so that it doesn't allow banned users to censor new material?
Please respond at Wikipedia talk:Banning policy#Proxying. Thank you. ← BenB4 17:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
How are administrators expected to discern between independent and directed inclusion? How is someone who has decided to include material which a banned user suggested supposed to defend themselves from accusations of proxying? Wouldn't anyone proxying likely claim that they are acting independently? ← BenB4 18:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed changing that sentence to:
Is that better? ← BenB4 19:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I asked this on the BLP noticeboard as well: This is a serious question - obviously we always should source articles, but do the particularly stringent BLP rules apply for a subject who is no longer alive? Specifically I'm talking about the removal of material that hasn't been adequately sourced(BLP) vs. adding a "Fact" tag requesting citations (most others). Thanks. Tvoz | talk 04:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I've given a comprehensive answer to this and to some followup questions at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#How_are_BLP_guidleines_interpreted_for_a_subject_who_is_dead.3F, and am closing this discussion to avoid WP:MULTI. THF 04:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
You beat me to it. Thanks. Tvoz | talk 05:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I am requesting comments on Wikipedia:Notability (years), a policy which at present merely writes down what precedent has already said. It needs to address issues for which the precedent is unclear, such as the notability of fictional references to future years. PrimeFan 22:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Notability (Reality Television participants) has been proposed as a new guideline. Are these people significantly different enough to merit a new guideline? Or is this rule creep -- Kevin Murray 18:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to dicuss here a proposal for a possible Guideline/Policy (Whatever it suits the best) on Wikipedia, labelled "Wikipedia:Don't edit for power." and this page is to warn that you should never edit wikipedia just for the purpose of gaining power to become an admin or such, because it's for building an encyclopedia, and if you try for power and fail. The result can drive editors mad and cause disputes, etc why wikipedia shouldn't be used for power. I would like feedback on this before I see if such a page should be created. The sunder king 16:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I will write an essay then, but I would still like to see more opinions on this. The sunder king 17:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
People come to Wiki for data, editors come to Wiki for power. At some point, and it seems to have occurred, the needs of the editors will dominate and nothing submitted will be quite "good enough", or comply with the myriad of policies being promulgated.
Gathering data is hard, editing by comparison is easy. But editors don't think so. So diversity is weeded out, fresh data sources are turned away, and Wiki stagnates into irrelevence.
As Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. put it, "So it goes." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oracle2world ( talk • contribs) 21:46, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
As was brought up during the BJAODN discussion, deletion of pages occasionally violates the GFDL, in particular section 4.I.
Consider the following scenario: 1. Article X is created. 2. Content from article X is merged into article Y, with proper attribute as described by WP:MERGE in order to comply with 4.I. 3. Article X is deleted. 4. Article Y now violates the GFDL, since the history required by section 4.I. is no longer accessible.
Since GFDL compliance is a Foundation issue, don't deletion, merging, or both need to be changed to bring Wikipedia back into GFDL compliance? Evouga 20:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to remind admins who are using the Twinkle user script to be careful when removing backlinks to pages that they have speedy deleted using this script. Sometimes a vandal or new user will click on a legitimate red link and create a speedy deletable page. Please remember that WP:RED says that "removal of red links for nonexistent topics should not be done without careful consideration of their importance or relevance." Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Comments would be appreciated in the discussion at MediaWiki talk:Licenses. This proposed change would change the license selection drop-down to use CC 3.0 instead of CC 2.5. — Remember the dot ( talk) 01:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
There are currently two types of stubs, those which are assessed as stubs, and those which deserve stub templates. The first is based on content, the second on size. This is an odd double-standard. I propose that we treat these as an either/or situation. There is no reason to limit the stub templates to size when the content is what needs expanding. At the least, Wikipedia should decide on one type of Stub so that the word will mean the same thing no matter where you see it. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 17:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
User:THF has become an issue, specifically, that he is a well-known individual off of Wikipedia. Under his previous user name (one need only go the very first cache of his current User page), which was his real name, he introduced himself on his User page using his real name and also that of his employer. He also wrote an attack piece on Michael Moore here, using his real name, which he wanted inserted into 25 articles on Wikipedia. For these actions I and another editor raised WP:COIN issues against THF, both of which failed. During those COINs, THF chucked his Real Name User Name for the one he currently has, which are his real initials, THF. Now he wants the bell unrung, and despite all this prior history of introducing himself, his employer, his real name User name, and trying to put work he authored and was published by his employer, he wants nobody on Wikipedia to make any mention of his formerly-used Real Name User Name or his real name. This has caused a massive amount of bad feelings and disruption. First, Michael Moore's website, upon learning who THF was, and how often he edits all of Moore's articles on Wikipedia, made a note of it on his website. There was not attack, and I have a screen shot saved. It was factual: this is who THF is, and this is what he is doing. However, there was a perceived invitation to harass THF by including links to edit his User page (it's possible they thought this was where we leave messages to each other) and also an invitation to edit the Sicko page (nothing wrong with that). However, THF, under the banner of WP:HARASS, led a fight to have MichaelMoore.com removed from Wikipedia. Why? Because Moore revealed who THF is, and Moore was inviting harassment with the link to edit his User page. This caused a massive argument on AN/I, which continues in various forms to this day. Edit wars over removing Moore's website from his encyclopedia articles ensued. Consensus is divided whether this falls under WP:NPA or not. At the least, we asked Moore to remove the links to the edit pages, which he did. Now what is argued is that the very mention of THF's real-life identity, which remains on that page, qualifies MichaelMoore.com as an attack site under WP:NPA, even though there is no "attack" as that word is defined, but a factual statement. The fall-back argument is now that THF has elected to unring the bell he run of disclosing his identity, Moore's site is in violation of WP:HARASS. So, many people want removed from Wikipedia a link to one of the most influential Americans out there because THF wants the bell of his identity unrung, and we are going to "punish" Moore for disclosing who THF is. One would thing that if mattered that much at this point, THF would switch to another User name. Instead, for the wishes of THF and his second thoughts, we are going to start de-linking pertinent websites and remove information from the encyclopedia we are building. My RfC: I would like to have an RfC to find out how feasible it is for a notable person on the outside who did all of the above (introduce himself, edit under his real name, reveal his employer, then switch to a User name with his real initials, and effort to have work he wrote under his real name inserted into multiple articles) to not have that persons name ever used on Wikipedia, to the length of removing content because an outside relevant website points out a statement of fact: This is who this person is, and they edit my Wikipedia pages. Comment on unring the bell and its feasibility? --David Shankbone 18:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I've already explained why I'm not changing my username a second time. WP:HARASS#Posting of personal information explicitly permits a user to change their username without having their real name discussed, even if the personal information is available in a cache. My complaint is that David Shankbone is making false COI accusations against me on yet a seventh different page after being rejected in the first six forums he shopped at, and this is a real WP:STALK problem that I would like an administrator to deal with. If he wishes to discuss changing the WP:HARASS rule without personalizing it with false characterizations of my behavior, he is welcome to do so. Again, I note that I was threatened with an indefinite block when I inadvertently revealed User:Jance's real name in the identical situation where she changed her username, and multiple editors have been doing it deliberately multiple times without so much as a warning. I'd merely like some even enforcement of the rules. THF 18:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:HARASS clearly applies to the actions of DavidShankBone, and heres why. I've only ever known user THF under that name, i did not know he had changed his user name until editors started to publish it and other personal details in violation of WP:HARASS that simple. (Hypnosadist) 19:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Has it occurred to anyone that branding Michael Moore's official website an "attack site" and purging its links from the English Wikipedia will only draw additional attention to the matter (and to THF's identity) and possibly spark a new controversy? It isn't as though it will actually prevent anyone from finding Moore's website, so what's the point? — David Levy 19:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Enough. Moore's behavior does not make his site an attack site for these purposes. THF does have a possible conflict but as far as I can tell all his edits have been NPOV or close to NPOV. He should of course be careful to continue abiding by NPOV and pay particular attention to the WP:COI guideline. JoshuaZ 21:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The applicable policy and section here is WP:NPA#External links, which has been modified in recent days. - Crockspot 21:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed a replacement for the WP:NOR#Sources section of Wikipedia:No original research at Wikipedia talk:No original research#Sources proposal. The proposal focuses on what sources should be relied upon and how to handle other references, in relation to original research. Cheers! Vassyana 16:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
What is the policy about citation location? Should one put it on a phrase, on the sentence, at the end of a paragraph? Suppose two sentences in a paragraph have the same source? Can the citation be at the end of the second sentence?-- Filll 16:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I cannot seem to get this information from WP:REF or similar areas. Which of these is correct?
I think the second one looks better and makes articles more consistent, but I still see the first style. Can I get some comments on this one? Thanks Timneu22 02:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe this user page debate should get more attention. Editors should weigh in on whether this sort of alleged administrator POV rollcall violates WP:CIVIL and/or WP:USER. If such lists are uncivil, I think we should ask whether it would also be uncivil for a users to post them on public talk pages. Cool Hand Luke 05:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it acceptable fair use of non-free images if album cover artwork is included in articles about songs on an album. An example is Image:SurferRosa.jpg in Where Is My Mind?. I would suggest that it is not fair use, as the image is not being used to illustrate the song itself. This has been discussed briefly before, but no real consensus was reached. I think this needs to be clarified as it affects a huge number of articles. Thanks Papa November 14:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Per WP:COOL, I have not edit-warred on this, but I'm asking for the end of hostilities and edit-warring on a remarkably silly issue, and have one apology and one request, which I split into separate sections. THF 15:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Over the last six months, I have been subjected to an extraordinary amount of harassment because I sought to comply with WP:COI and disclosed my identity. In an effort to reduce the harassment, I made a username change, which I thought was a good compromise: long-time editors generally inclined to behave themselves knew who I was, trolls wouldn't be able to immediately pick me out. Unfortunately, due to a number of unenforced violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:STALK, this has had a counterproductive effect, as efforts to politely ask people not to gratuitously throw my real name around merely encouraged canvassing for systematic harassment. I strongly suspect that much of the combat over this was a proxy war for other Wikipedia controversies that had nothing to with me, but that some editors were seizing upon this dispute to create a precedent for attacking a more popular editor. So I'm just not going to ask any more, and would encourage people to not fight about it, and instead focus on the production of the encyclopedia.
I have to suspect that Wikipedia would not have treated me this way if I were left-wing, rather than right-wing.
Except this is more than a suspicion: it's a demonstrable fact. In February, I complained that the Drum Major Institute had retained two attorneys to act as "Civil Justice Wikipedia editors", and was systematically subverting Wikipedia by completely rewriting every article in my field, legal reform, to reflect solely left-wing views, making literally thousands of POV-pushing and original-research edits that violated Wikipedia policy even without the WP:COI violations. But when I linked to the blog post where they indicated their conflict of interest, I was immediately threatened with an indefinite block, administrators debated whether I should even be given the chance to apologize, and was sternly warned never to do it again--even though the same editor previously edited under her real name before starting a new account with a new username, but no record of her previous account's edit history. No one even suggested that I was not in the wrong, and I abjectly apologized.
I apologize to those who were offended by my invocation of WP:HARASS in what were literally identical circumstances. I am an attorney by training, and my mind thinks in terms of precedent, and this was an obvious application of precedent to facts precisely on point. It should have occurred to me sooner that the problem was with the original administrative decision in the first case to demand an apology from me and forbid me from repeating the evidence of COI.
I want to thank those who came to my defense, and I apologize to them if they are frustrated by my concession here after they spent so much effort on the issue.
I apologize to Wikipedia to the extent that my request for straightforward policies to be enforced as they had been previously enforced was disruptive. For the reasons stated above, these requests were in good faith.
I note that this incident raises three issues for discussion:
I would like to repeat again that, over the course of 7000 edits in over 2500 pages at Wikipedia, I have consistently tried to comply in good faith with the WP:COI guideline, seeking guidance from admins with legal training. I would again like to ask editors to comply with WP:NPA, and comment on edits, not editors: for all the complaining about me, no one has identified a single instance of a bad-faith mainspace edit. Compare and contrast SPA User:Drum Major Institute, which has made precisely one non-promotional edit in the course of its Wikipedia career without anyone saying boo or nominating its articles for AFDs.
I again ask that COI guidelines be enforced neutrally. Chip Berlet and William Connolley are permitted to edit articles in their field, even though they have very strong opinions, and even though they are attacked by trolls on- and off-wiki for the appearance of COI. But when they are attacked and harassed by trolls on-wiki, the trolls are blocked. In my case, however, not only are the trolls not blocked, but their demands are taken seriously: there are editors who are demanding that I entirely avoid not just articles in my field of expertise, but any controversial articles. I'd like not to have to fight the same battles over and over, and not have to wade through mud on such simple basic tasks as participation on the WP:BLP/N cleanup. Can we get a definitive and internally consistent ruling: are Chip, William, and I permitted to edit, and if so, under what constraints?
I note that an overexpansive COI ruling, while simultaneously permitting anonymous edits, is only going to cause more conflicts of interest, by making it perfectly clear that different rules apply for anonymous editors and non-anonymous editors. There is also discussion at WP:COI/N#Sicko, where I demonstrate that there is no reasonable interpretation of the COI guideline that suggests I should be prohibited from editing that article. THF 15:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a repeat of the argument I made at the Community Sanction board. I find it highly disingenuous that THF now wants us all to learn from his experience, as if is a victim, when in reality he caused a massive amount of disruption. The problem here is not one of COI, the problem is one of disruptive editing and Wikilawyering. I've outlined this case in my above comment. Our policies and guidelines protecting user anonymity are there to protect the NYPD police officer who makes a factual but unflattering edit to the Michael Bloomberg page, and should his identity be found out, may have ramifications for him with his job. However, if Fernando Ferrer, a Bloomberg opponent, began editing the Mayor's page, his identity would be pertinent to the discussion, and our guidelines and policies would not protect Ferrer. The situation with THF is analogous to the Ferrer situation, not the police officer. THF's career is to criticize public figures that disagree with his ideological point of view, and in the situation at hand, with Michael Moore in particular. Our guidelines and policies are there to protect those of us who are not public figures so that we may edit with knowledge we possess without fear of negative consequences in our waking life. Harassment, death threats, stalking, job problems. THF, who now says he has nothing to hide, so I am guessing he does not mind being called Ted Frank, has none of these issues and if he does, they are probably more a problem when he goes on Fox News than when he edits Wikipedia. Therein lies the rub: Ted has wanted to protect his identity against "unseen forces" on Wikipedia that he curiously is not concerned about when he goes on national television, with his face, employer and identity for a much larger audience to see. The problems I see for sanctioning are as follows:
Those are my arguments for sanctioning.
--David
Shankbone 17:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
1.4 Posting of personal information Posting another person's personal information (legal name, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily provides or links to such information himself or herself. This is because it places the other person at unjustified and uninvited risk of harm in "the real world" or other media. This applies whether or not the person whose personal information is being revealed is a Wikipedia editor. It also applies in the case of editors who have requested a change in username, but whose old signatures can still be found in archives.
AND
2 Off-wiki harassment Harassment of other Wikipedians in forums not controlled by the Wikimedia Foundation creates doubt as to whether an editor's on-wiki actions are conducted in good faith. As per WP:NPA#Off-wiki personal attacks, off-wiki harassment can and will be regarded as an aggravating factor by administrators and is admissible evidence in the dispute-resolution process, including Arbitration cases. In some cases, the evidence will be submitted by private email. As is the case with on-wiki harassment, off-wiki harassment can be grounds for blocking, and in extreme cases, banning. Off-wiki privacy violations shall be dealt with particularly severely.
Harassment of other Wikipedians through the use of external links is considered equivalent to the posting of personal attacks on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee has ruled that links to off-site harassment, personal attacks or privacy violations against Wikipedians are not permitted "under any circumstances" and must be removed. Such material can be removed on sight, and its removal is not subject to the three-revert rule. Repeated or deliberate inclusion of such material can be grounds for blocking.
There is not interpretation ArbCom was clear and the harassment is still on wikipedia So do something about it. (Hypnosadist) 18:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't a user conduct RfC be a much better forum for this? -- Iamunknown 17:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I hope I am not premature in saying that David and I have reached a reconciliation on his talk page. I hope that resolves the majority of the issues. I encourage discussion of the COI issue at WP:COI/N#Sicko. THF 21:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The following tag is being used to tag photo displays, but I can find no specific guidline or policy that expresses a preference for removing picture galleries to Commons, nor can I find any prohibitions against the use of image galleries. -- Kevin Murray 21:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
This section contains an unencyclopedic or excessive gallery of images. |
Per a recent discussion I had with an anonymous editor who removed entire comments made by another editor, I'd like to know if there is a policy that states specifically, that comments you leave on your talk page, or other users' talk pages, may not be posted elsewhere. (Basically, an editor "quoted" an anon editor from his talk page to illustrate a point, and the anon editor feels that's against policy to do.) I've reviewed the policies and guidelines and find no such policy, in fact, the issue of other editors quoting you, is something mentioned more than once. Thanks in advance. Ariel♥ Gold 11:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:SIG states clearly that users should not transclude templates in signatures, but makes no mention of what to do when you find an unsuitable signature that transcludes a sub-page. Is MFD the best route to take? WP:DP and the MFD page do not make any specific mention of this unless I have missed something, and UAA looks unsuitable for this. Adrian M. H. 17:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Under what circumstances is it appropriate for an academic to update their own article here, with new publications, new interviews, new lectures etc?-- Filll 20:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
good example :
i put a trivia on
The Prince of Tides article, the movie, and some guy,
User talk:Spellcast, undid it : cause : "unsourced" - - - sometimes, when i'm on wiki, i'm really asking myself about intelligence, in general - - -
trivia text : "The actress Kate Nelligan, who plays Tom and Savannah's mother, Lila, was born on March 16th, 1950, and was older than her twins in the movie, Tom (played by Nick Nolte, born on February 8th, 1941) and Savannah (Melinda Dillon, October 13th, 1939)" : what more do we need, more than the birtdates?! ri-di-cu-lous, huh!
84.227.48.33 07:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- bravo, i never read something this *** about what a source is... in this case, the point is just to KNOW the bithdate: no one needs a source!!!! OR : you have to put in wiki all sources for all mentionned birthdates, good luck! 84.227.48.33 08:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
This whole discussion is very silly. First, it should be clarified that 84.227.48.33 means that the actress playing the mother was nine years younger than the actors playing her children. This is certainly an interesting fact, and Night Gyr's question implies that he didn't fully understand what 84.227.48.33 was talking about.
Second, Papa November is mostly wrong. Birth dates are rarely referenced (though that doesn't mean they shouldn't be), should not be removed for being unreferenced (though checking them and referencing them would be a splendid way to improve the encyclopedia), and, in my opinion most importantly, his last question about making up dates implies that anything unreferenced is made up or that allowing anything without a reference behind it is supporting factually inaccurate information. This is an enormous assumption of bad faith and simply not a logical conclusion. Atropos 20:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
i am User:84.227.48.33 : OF COURSE i was meaning the actress was "much" younger than her son+daughter in the movie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 84.226.96.243 07:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a proposal at User page: Collection of material proposed language to address user page posts about other Wikipedians at MfD that do not rise to the level of a WP:CSD#G10 speedy delete attack page. Please participate in that discussion. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 18:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
What's the status on this infobox? It's pointing to a dead Wikipedia instruction page, but is still being brandished over at Adult. -- Nathanael Bar-Aur L. 02:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering if the Guide to good indentation should be turned into a guideline. It's currently an essay and is fairly sensible. It just needs to gain consensus-- Pheonix15 17:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a question re what might or might not be the appropriate perspective for notability with respect to agents: The question is prompted by the fact that I created an initial entry for an agent (deceased) by the name of Kurt Hellmer, who had represented Max Frisch and Friedrich Dürrenmatt amongst others. The entry was deleted as non-notable. My thinking was that a literary agent who had represented such major authors was of some note in an encyclopedia. Now, in most cases, agents, even very successful ones, keep relatively low personal profiles in the general press. Therefore, unless an agent is just starting out, a personal publicity hound, or a ripoff artist, they tend (with some rare exceptions) not to be the subject of articles devoted solely to them as opposed to passing references in other sourceable articles or books. Now, perhaps WP simply isn't interested in the possibility of an entry for such folks, that they simply aren't as important to the community consensus as, for example, anime characters, reality show contestants, minor athletes, or porn stars. On the other hand, it would seem to me, to cite this particular example, that a literary agent who represented major writers such as Frisch and Durrenmatt is of some interest, is verifiable to the extent of verifiable references though not devoted solely to them as the subject, and is appropriate. How do others feel? Would whoever T S Eliot's agent may have been be of interest to WP, or not? AtomikWeasel 17:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
When did "Log in" grow the enter some weird letters requirement & why? It is frustrating. -- SGBailey 08:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I have created Wikipedia:Copyright on highway shields as a page to discuss and determine the copyright status of logos for highways, mainly toll roads. Please help, especially if you are familiar with copyright law. Thank you. -- NE2 03:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Using all of the parameters of the {{ otheruses4}} template as so:
resulting in the hatnote
seems like an abuse of the idea of a hatnote – can anyone point out an instance where a hatnote should point to four different articles, rather than to a disambiguation page? Even three other pages seems like too many – I would consider a four article disambiguation page far preferable to a wordy three article hatnote. Is there some existing rule of thumb for the threshold where a dab page should exist? If so, would there be support for changing this template to only allow disambiguating one or two (possibly three, but certainly not four) other pages? Does anyone know how to find which pages transclude this template with all the parameters filled? — Swpb talk | edits 15:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC) 19:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Question: Has this Arbcom ruling --
-- been superseded in any way other than WP:COI? (There was an identical finding in December 2005.) Please restrict answers to the general abstract Wikipedia rules and guidelines, without reference to particular individuals. Thank you. THF 23:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I asked this on the BLP noticeboard as well: This is a serious question - obviously we always should source articles, but do the particularly stringent BLP rules apply for a subject who is no longer alive? Specifically I'm talking about the removal of material that hasn't been adequately sourced(BLP) vs. adding a "Fact" tag requesting citations (most others). Thanks. Tvoz | talk 04:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I've given a comprehensive answer to this and to some followup questions at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#How_are_BLP_guidleines_interpreted_for_a_subject_who_is_dead.3F, and am closing this discussion to avoid WP:MULTI. THF 04:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
You beat me to it. Thanks. Tvoz | talk 05:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
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Often, I come upon articles that have (or consist entirely of) trivial references to an article subject in various media. I think that Wikipedia needs a policy on this. I think that they should be aggressively removed, per my essay here. I welcome community feedback. -- Eyrian 19:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
All interested parties: Please see Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Not a trivia collection. -- Eyrian 21:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Look, could someone please start up a wiki where this stuff can be kept? Because I'm sick of this mania for removing anything that might actually be useful. - Multivitamin 22:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
There are articles where historical or legendary figures play such a large role in popular culture that an article such as these seems absolutely necessary, even if the current article sucks and is in dire need of improvement. (E.g. Adolf Hitler in popular culture). With mythological or legendary creatures, current appearances and uses are in some sense as valid as "classical" ones, and should stay or merge (E.g. phoenix in popular culture). Then there are ones that seem ridiculous, mostly because the title subject of the fork is popular culture in the first instance. (E.g. Britney Spears in popular culture). People who want all of this material gone don't see a difference.
The anti popular-culture agenda has been misused. Notoriously so, in the case of Richard Dawkins, where a group of his groupies refuse to allow his article to admit that he was satirized in the South Park episode " Go God Go", despite the fact that South Park's audience exceeds that of Dawkins's scientific works or atheist screeds by at least a factor of ten.
I think it's time to step back from the whole business. Vague and litigious words like trivia and indiscriminate should not be used in guidelines. The wikilawyering that claims that recognizing allusions is "original research" needs to be fish-slapped; noticing these things is neither original to the editor who sees them, nor pushing an agenda in the typical case, and a citation to the work in which an allusion appears is reference enough. I'd be prepared to take the deletion of "trivia" more seriously if and when some greater sensitivity is shown to the variety of subjects involved here. - Smerdis of Tlön 19:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
As Wikipedians, we all agree to adhere to the encyclopedia's core values of verifiability and notability: our articles must be accurate and their subjects must be significant. We regularly delete articles that fail to demonstrate these tenants, why should we keep articles of list of things that fail to demonstrate them? I agree with Eyrian that in popular culture sections are a bane to the encyclopedia, and that their systematic removal is in the best interest of our cause.
Instead, what seems to happen now is not this. The practice seems to have taken root to fork out these edits into separate "in popular culture" articles, which are then proposed for deletion en masse in episodic spasms. This is not as good, for multiple reasons; most seriously, it leads to the potential loss of valuable contributions.
Phoenix in popular culture is a perfect example. As a mythical critter, the phoenix exists only as long as people remember and rehearse the legend to yet another generation. The use of the phoenix as a heraldic symbol belongs in the article. So, for that matter, do at least some appearances of the legend in well known works of fiction. We can trust people to use their brains; if something is called a phoenix and it seems associated with fire and rebirth, it belongs somehow.
No, not every such appearance should be catalogued; but deleting the data en masse and wiping it from the history is an even worse thing to do. - Smerdis of Tlön 04:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
In the "X is mentioned in Y" sort of trivia, we already have a linkage on this, assuming that it's important enough for the article on "Y" to refer to "X" in its text. I refer to the "What links here" item in the toolbox.
The phrase "in popular culture" is also a problem because it implies that these references are somehow special. I note that Phoenix in popular culture, for instance, completely ignores this and puts in everything from the church fathers to Harry Potter. I dont'see the need for the segregation, especially as it is apparently oft ignored anyway. Mangoe 18:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
When I was looking at the Linux article today, I found that this article was about systems that use the Linux kernel, and that there's a separate article ( Linux kernel) which was about the actual kernel itself. This made me think for a second. While systems that utilize the Linux kernel are more likely to be what the user is looking for when he types "Linux" into the search box, there's a certain sense of correctness about showing the article about the original meaning of the word instead. Long story short: "Linux" has always been the Linux kernel—that's the origin of the name—while systems that use the Linux kernel came a while afterwards—should an encyclopedia not have a rule for linking to the original term as often as possible, despite the derived term being more popular?
Another example. A " medical emergency" is defined as an injury or illness that poses immediate peril to a person. Medical Emergency is an Australian reality TV show. While the TV show may be the more popular thing that the average user looks for (and I don't know whether it is, but it just may be), it's clear (in my opinion) that the term "medical emergency" should link to the article about medicine, and not to the article about the television show. (Currently, it does link to the article about medicine, the original meaning of the term, unlike the Linux example.)
And I'm not sure if this discussion has been done already. It probably has, but I'm just thinking out loud here. I think that linking to the original meaning of a search term in most cases (there will always be exceptions) is a bit more encyclopedic and pronounced about which phenomenon is the actual primary definition of that term. —msikma ( user, talk) 16:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I would appreciate it, if you could give me your thoughts on this essay: Accusations of collaboration: 3RR hurts Wikipedia. Comments are welcome both here and in the essay talk. -- Alexia Death the Grey 09:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Members of the community may be interested in knowing that there is currently a discussion at Naming Convention's Talk Page over the guidelines for naming US city articles. The debate starts at the section called "Requested Moves", and continues through several subsections. New England Review Me! 01:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I posted my question over on the Spam project but I'm not sure that was the right place. Radiant! suggested I ask here. I fully understand the reasons, but I'd like to know if there's a specific page/guideline/policy that covers users adding photobucket.com links to articles (most often to the "external links" section, linking to pictures at photobucket of the subject). I know that the uploading, or using of those images is covered under copyvio policy, and I understand the theoretical reason for not allowing them to be in links, but I'd like to be able to cite a specific policy, if asked. Does one exist? Thanks in advance! Ariel♥ Gold 11:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there any rule against playing out the 3RR by simply calling up wiki-friends to help "revert the POV"? I mean when user:X (sorry if this exists) dislikes Y's edits, as usual, calles it POV or original research, whatever - you all know this situation -, then when a revertwar erupts, and he's done with his 3 rvs, calls his mates to "finish the job", and play that "enemy" out, then of course report Y as 3RR offender. Is there any? Cos' I accidentally just found such a case... And in fact 4 others (!!) since... by checking the 3RR report page's content, reported (and reporter) users' actions, and reported pages' histories. -- Ezsaias 18:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
“ | Wikipedia is too often like the wild west, where the ability to shout the loudest, swing the hardest, and outlast the other fellow counts more than the quality and depth of one's sources.......................................... Raymond Arritt | ” |
Thanks for the answers. If I understand it right, there's some platform where a suspected "cabal" (I'd rather say: "a group of ppl with common interests and/or ideas abt a certain thing" even if it's longer a bit :) ) can be investigated. Wikipedia is too big, and there are more than one creationist user, and more than one evolutionist. And if they come together... :) But in a real world, it could happen, that for example for some reason, the creationst became the overwhelming majority, so all the evolutionist became banned for POV pushing, and all the related articles are became overwritten from a cr. POV. This is what I see in other themes, overwritten from a certain POV, and the...let me call balance of them is banned or retired because of them. (please, stick to my problem, don't start some religious war).
However I had a second question about recruiting people for revert warring. Is it forbidden, or not? -- Ezsaias 22:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a problem, that I see many people face, just like I do. See the section below for a proposal to fix it.-- Alexia Death the Grey 09:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I've got the same sort of Question.
I added a link to the Queenstown (NZ) site which was critical over the amount of development. http://www.boston.com/travel/articles/2004/11/07/new_zealand_at_a_crossroads?pg=full It was unceremoniously deleted. The site itself is a brochure for Queenstown, there are so many people with a vested interest hotels, property developers, tour companies etc, etc... Almost impossible to say a bad thing, but Wikipedia isn't a glossy brochure to sell bacon slice apartments ??? Yonk 08:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
An FA reviewer of Richard Hawes, an article I edited heavily and nominated for FA, has commented that I seem to have "gone nuts" with the footnotes, to the point that it impedes readability. It is true that almost every sentence is footnoted, and a few have two (to avoid mid-sentence citations). However, I felt like having a footnote on almost every sentence was the best way to avoid complaints that such-and-such wasn't cited properly, especially since I've had to return most of the sources to libraries far and wide by now. This mentality was reinforced by the GA reviewer of Happy Chandler, who stated: "Presumably you'll be taking this article to FAC in the near future. If so, then building up your citations to the "almost every sentence" point certainly won't hurt anything."
I've already used paragraph-at-a-time citation where every sentence in the paragraph comes from the same source. The FA reviewer on the Hawes article suggested that when most of the citations in a paragraph are from the same source, that I should move all of them to the end of the paragraph. While this probably would improve readability, I'm not sure it's in line with citation policies, a subject on which I am clearly not an expert. So I refer the matter to my more experienced and better versed wiki-brethren (and sistren?). What say you? Acdixon ( talk • contribs • count) 13:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the main body is clearly overcited. If any of the general references listed at the bottom of the article will support the fact, it doesn't need a sentence-specific citation (for example, names of parents) A cite at the end of that paragraph would be fine, but I wouldn't even consider that those sentences needed cites. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 14:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me, actually. It's not like you're citing every sentence to the same ref. It doesn't impede readability to me: I just skim over the blue numbers...-- SarekOfVulcan 17:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
.reference { display: none; }
As a disinterested reader, I have to say that to my eyes the article is extremely overcited. I don't see the need for a citation for the subject's nother's name, or the other totally uncontroversial biographical information. And while I'm used to reading scientific papers, I did find the constant footnote numbers distracting. I though I was going to come down on the side of the author, but I'm surprised to find myself itching to pick up a red pencil. If it were me, I would strike out at least three quarters of the citations, and that's a conservative guess. The article itself looks like a good one, stained by the excessive caution of the author. A citation or two in each paragraph shows that someone has made a good effort, and a good reference list at the end supports that impression. Anything more is just make-work to this reader. MarkinBoston 04:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems that arbcom is technically on the list of solutions for dispute resolution. However, it apparently cannot resolve disputes. I propose changing this, because apparently, there are some cases when all other steps in dispute resolution just fail for one reason or another. Of corse, it should only be done only after all other measures in WP:DR have been both tried and failed, and at the agreement of all involved parties to abide by the arbcom decision.-- Sefringle Talk 23:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely with Sefringle., We desperately need some higher court of appeal for resolving content disputes. Otherwise what are dispute resolutions for? Not all disputes can be solved by addressing user conduct. Sometimes, both sides show good etiquette, but simply cannot come to resolution about some highly volatile issue. -- Steve, Sm8900 02:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this. It goes against a fundamental part of Wikipedia which is that content disputes are resolved through discussion and concensus and not by allowing certain editors to make excecutive decisions on content. I recall a comment by Jimbo that even he was scared to edit Nupedia. Also, this seems a bit WP:CREEPy to me. MartinDK 06:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
It is obvious that giving a court the right to decide on content is dangerous and could give more bad results that good ones (censorship - oriented editorial lines) but could not a court state that some choices do not respect wikipedia principles ?
For example, if it is clear that a court cannot decide about the reality or pertinence of an information, cannot it take decisions or give advices concerning the formulation's compliance with fundamental principles ?
Alithien 09:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
No need. If the issue is whether a source is reliable, ask at the reliable sources noticeboard. If the issue is BLP, ask at the BLP noticeboard. If we come up with another type of issue for which clearly correct answers are likely to be forthcoming and that regularly occurs, we'll set up another noticeboard for that type of issue. Those are good, functioning, and non-court like mechanisms that give advice. Article RfCs sometimes succeed - and would more often if more editors paid attention to them.
Where things fail is where there are large factions of strongly opinionated pro/anti editors some of whom are not dedicated to NPOV. Group dynamics make achievement of consensus very difficult until there is an agreement to seek NPOV. Sometimes that requires weeding editors who really don't want an NPOV article out of the discussion. GRBerry 16:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't like it, it's WP:CREEPy, and reminds me of something out of Animal Farm. All editors are equal, but some editors are more equal that others. Not a path we want to start down. -- 146.115.58.152 18:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, we'll give arbcom the power to block editors who they believe are causing the problem, and thus we give them the power to decide who wins the dispute, since they can just block the opposition, yet we won't let them just resolve the dispute by executive order. Seems a bit ironic.-- Sefringle Talk 04:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Over at WP:NYCPT, we have been trying to reach a consensus on how New York City Subway stations should be named, because the subway system uses various names and punctuation formats for its stations, and users have "move-warred" articles in the absence of an agreed-upon guideline. The proposed convention is at Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/New York City Subway/Station naming convention. TLK 'in 08:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about article removal. A company that I work for has an article on Wikipedia that meets the notability guidelines for an article and is a relatively extensive article. I was recently asked, because I use wikipedia frequently, if the company were unhappy with the article, would it be able to have the article removed? If so, how could that be accomplished? 131.230.103.184 04:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your response. On a related issue, if the article in question were rated as GA quality, would removal of any unsourced statement by editors, without pressure from the company, be considered vandalism? Or, would this constitute keeping the article clean? 131.230.103.184 04:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if this is too trivial or has been discussed before, but do we have a style guideline for how to write policy and guideline pages?
I'm thinking, when to use bolds or italics, standard table and bullet point styles, how to distinguish the effective part of the policy from (i) justifications of the policy, (ii) explanations of how to comply, (iii) citations or quotes form other policy pages, and (iv) examples. For example, WP:NONFREE is pretty long and messy, and looks like it could use better headings and organization, and perhaps breaking the "law" section out to an essay or separate page. Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion has it all, bold, italics, two tables, and (green text!)
Maybe some more serious requirements, like when to enumerate things versus when to use a category, passive voice versus active or imperative, conditional versus certain. The notion that policy pages are for broad universal rules, guideline pages for how those rules apply to different situations (or is that really the case?). To make up an example, "Spam should not be placed in the main space, talk pages, user pages, or anywhere else on Wikipedia" should read "Spam is not allowed on any Wikipedia page."
Is that sort of thing collected anywhere and should it be? Wikidemo 17:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place at WP:COI/N (Conflict of Interest Noticeboard). One admin has consented to keeping it in the open there. Two non-admin users have attempted to hide it from general view. I assume that it is fair for me to revert the attempts to hide the material, at least until an administrator is the one who hides it. -- Dude Manchap 16:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I heard that the person who is in charge of the Wikimedia Foundation's finances is the very same person who is in charge of the for-profit Wikia, Inc.'s finances. Is that true? -- Dude Manchap 03:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi again Dude. A few clarifications: you posted to ask whether there's a conflict of interest but haven't supplied much information. Normally requests to this board cite specific activity and evidence. And normally there's an onsite edit history to reference. If this person actually has registered and edits in a way that reflects a conflict of interest, this noticeboard might be able to accomplish something. If the conflict of interest relationship doesn't extend to actual editing activity then I have no direct power and only a little influence. Yet as the founder of Category:Eguor admins I'm particularly open to this type of request. Sure, why not investigate a Wikipedia/Wikia COI? Burden of evidence rests squarely on your shoulders. Go for it if it's particularly important to you. Just expect to shoulder most of the work yourself. I'll check it out, see if there's anything I can do about it, and possibly ask for broader input. That's as fair as I can be. Durova Charge! 15:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Looking over those five links, two of them are specifically legal issues outside my expertise. I have no qualification to evaluate them. Joe Szlilagyi's blog is hardly a reliable source and another on-wikipedia thread was started by someone who's expended his credibility also. The techcrunch.com article holds water, in my opinion. What exactly are you seeking? If the basic complaint regards financial relationships at that level, then the most I could do would be to ask the WMF board to review this matter, and possibly to ask someone to institute nofollow to outgoing links to Wikia. My sysop tools would be useless to address this. Or is more forthcoming? Durova Charge! 17:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) To clarify for newcomers to this thread, we've agreed to refer discussion here from the other locations because this looks like the kind of issue best addressed by community input and (possibly) petition to the WMF board. Durova Charge! 17:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I am sort of confused. Yes, Wikia and Wikipedia share a number of people. Yes, there are some aspects of cozy relationship. That is public information.
If the accusation is that there's a potential COI, then yes, but everyone's aware of it, from the Board to individual admins and editors who bother to pay attention. It's possible we'd all miss some sort of actual conflict or improper behavior, but I haven't seen any.
If you're suggesting such is going on, then please provide us some more specific proof.
If you're worried about it, ask board members if they can let you know what they're doing to review potential conflicts of interest. Georgewilliamherbert 19:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I would like to understand and get more information as to how would I go about publishing a glossary on to WIKIpedia. My company and other people from other high tech insdustries have a long list of terms associated with B2B technology standards that we would like to publish on here. Is there any upfront cost if any?
I appreciate any guidence and help on this matter.
thank you karen —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.107.248.220 ( talk) 14:12, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
I proposed in WP:BIO about wikiprojects roles in borderline BIO cases, which has mainly to do with minor league players but it could be expanded as such. Wikipedia talk:Notability (people), the last section. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 20:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Currently the Wikipedia:Banning policy states:
If a banned user asks to have something included, does that really mean that all of the sudden everyone is forbidden from including it? If that were the case, a banned user could effectively censor just by asking to have the material he or she wishes to censor included. I'm sure that can not be the intent of the policy. Can we rephrase this so that it doesn't allow banned users to censor new material?
Please respond at Wikipedia talk:Banning policy#Proxying. Thank you. ← BenB4 17:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
How are administrators expected to discern between independent and directed inclusion? How is someone who has decided to include material which a banned user suggested supposed to defend themselves from accusations of proxying? Wouldn't anyone proxying likely claim that they are acting independently? ← BenB4 18:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed changing that sentence to:
Is that better? ← BenB4 19:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I asked this on the BLP noticeboard as well: This is a serious question - obviously we always should source articles, but do the particularly stringent BLP rules apply for a subject who is no longer alive? Specifically I'm talking about the removal of material that hasn't been adequately sourced(BLP) vs. adding a "Fact" tag requesting citations (most others). Thanks. Tvoz | talk 04:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I've given a comprehensive answer to this and to some followup questions at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#How_are_BLP_guidleines_interpreted_for_a_subject_who_is_dead.3F, and am closing this discussion to avoid WP:MULTI. THF 04:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
You beat me to it. Thanks. Tvoz | talk 05:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I am requesting comments on Wikipedia:Notability (years), a policy which at present merely writes down what precedent has already said. It needs to address issues for which the precedent is unclear, such as the notability of fictional references to future years. PrimeFan 22:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Notability (Reality Television participants) has been proposed as a new guideline. Are these people significantly different enough to merit a new guideline? Or is this rule creep -- Kevin Murray 18:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to dicuss here a proposal for a possible Guideline/Policy (Whatever it suits the best) on Wikipedia, labelled "Wikipedia:Don't edit for power." and this page is to warn that you should never edit wikipedia just for the purpose of gaining power to become an admin or such, because it's for building an encyclopedia, and if you try for power and fail. The result can drive editors mad and cause disputes, etc why wikipedia shouldn't be used for power. I would like feedback on this before I see if such a page should be created. The sunder king 16:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I will write an essay then, but I would still like to see more opinions on this. The sunder king 17:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
People come to Wiki for data, editors come to Wiki for power. At some point, and it seems to have occurred, the needs of the editors will dominate and nothing submitted will be quite "good enough", or comply with the myriad of policies being promulgated.
Gathering data is hard, editing by comparison is easy. But editors don't think so. So diversity is weeded out, fresh data sources are turned away, and Wiki stagnates into irrelevence.
As Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. put it, "So it goes." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oracle2world ( talk • contribs) 21:46, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
As was brought up during the BJAODN discussion, deletion of pages occasionally violates the GFDL, in particular section 4.I.
Consider the following scenario: 1. Article X is created. 2. Content from article X is merged into article Y, with proper attribute as described by WP:MERGE in order to comply with 4.I. 3. Article X is deleted. 4. Article Y now violates the GFDL, since the history required by section 4.I. is no longer accessible.
Since GFDL compliance is a Foundation issue, don't deletion, merging, or both need to be changed to bring Wikipedia back into GFDL compliance? Evouga 20:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to remind admins who are using the Twinkle user script to be careful when removing backlinks to pages that they have speedy deleted using this script. Sometimes a vandal or new user will click on a legitimate red link and create a speedy deletable page. Please remember that WP:RED says that "removal of red links for nonexistent topics should not be done without careful consideration of their importance or relevance." Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Comments would be appreciated in the discussion at MediaWiki talk:Licenses. This proposed change would change the license selection drop-down to use CC 3.0 instead of CC 2.5. — Remember the dot ( talk) 01:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
There are currently two types of stubs, those which are assessed as stubs, and those which deserve stub templates. The first is based on content, the second on size. This is an odd double-standard. I propose that we treat these as an either/or situation. There is no reason to limit the stub templates to size when the content is what needs expanding. At the least, Wikipedia should decide on one type of Stub so that the word will mean the same thing no matter where you see it. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 17:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
User:THF has become an issue, specifically, that he is a well-known individual off of Wikipedia. Under his previous user name (one need only go the very first cache of his current User page), which was his real name, he introduced himself on his User page using his real name and also that of his employer. He also wrote an attack piece on Michael Moore here, using his real name, which he wanted inserted into 25 articles on Wikipedia. For these actions I and another editor raised WP:COIN issues against THF, both of which failed. During those COINs, THF chucked his Real Name User Name for the one he currently has, which are his real initials, THF. Now he wants the bell unrung, and despite all this prior history of introducing himself, his employer, his real name User name, and trying to put work he authored and was published by his employer, he wants nobody on Wikipedia to make any mention of his formerly-used Real Name User Name or his real name. This has caused a massive amount of bad feelings and disruption. First, Michael Moore's website, upon learning who THF was, and how often he edits all of Moore's articles on Wikipedia, made a note of it on his website. There was not attack, and I have a screen shot saved. It was factual: this is who THF is, and this is what he is doing. However, there was a perceived invitation to harass THF by including links to edit his User page (it's possible they thought this was where we leave messages to each other) and also an invitation to edit the Sicko page (nothing wrong with that). However, THF, under the banner of WP:HARASS, led a fight to have MichaelMoore.com removed from Wikipedia. Why? Because Moore revealed who THF is, and Moore was inviting harassment with the link to edit his User page. This caused a massive argument on AN/I, which continues in various forms to this day. Edit wars over removing Moore's website from his encyclopedia articles ensued. Consensus is divided whether this falls under WP:NPA or not. At the least, we asked Moore to remove the links to the edit pages, which he did. Now what is argued is that the very mention of THF's real-life identity, which remains on that page, qualifies MichaelMoore.com as an attack site under WP:NPA, even though there is no "attack" as that word is defined, but a factual statement. The fall-back argument is now that THF has elected to unring the bell he run of disclosing his identity, Moore's site is in violation of WP:HARASS. So, many people want removed from Wikipedia a link to one of the most influential Americans out there because THF wants the bell of his identity unrung, and we are going to "punish" Moore for disclosing who THF is. One would thing that if mattered that much at this point, THF would switch to another User name. Instead, for the wishes of THF and his second thoughts, we are going to start de-linking pertinent websites and remove information from the encyclopedia we are building. My RfC: I would like to have an RfC to find out how feasible it is for a notable person on the outside who did all of the above (introduce himself, edit under his real name, reveal his employer, then switch to a User name with his real initials, and effort to have work he wrote under his real name inserted into multiple articles) to not have that persons name ever used on Wikipedia, to the length of removing content because an outside relevant website points out a statement of fact: This is who this person is, and they edit my Wikipedia pages. Comment on unring the bell and its feasibility? --David Shankbone 18:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I've already explained why I'm not changing my username a second time. WP:HARASS#Posting of personal information explicitly permits a user to change their username without having their real name discussed, even if the personal information is available in a cache. My complaint is that David Shankbone is making false COI accusations against me on yet a seventh different page after being rejected in the first six forums he shopped at, and this is a real WP:STALK problem that I would like an administrator to deal with. If he wishes to discuss changing the WP:HARASS rule without personalizing it with false characterizations of my behavior, he is welcome to do so. Again, I note that I was threatened with an indefinite block when I inadvertently revealed User:Jance's real name in the identical situation where she changed her username, and multiple editors have been doing it deliberately multiple times without so much as a warning. I'd merely like some even enforcement of the rules. THF 18:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:HARASS clearly applies to the actions of DavidShankBone, and heres why. I've only ever known user THF under that name, i did not know he had changed his user name until editors started to publish it and other personal details in violation of WP:HARASS that simple. (Hypnosadist) 19:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Has it occurred to anyone that branding Michael Moore's official website an "attack site" and purging its links from the English Wikipedia will only draw additional attention to the matter (and to THF's identity) and possibly spark a new controversy? It isn't as though it will actually prevent anyone from finding Moore's website, so what's the point? — David Levy 19:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Enough. Moore's behavior does not make his site an attack site for these purposes. THF does have a possible conflict but as far as I can tell all his edits have been NPOV or close to NPOV. He should of course be careful to continue abiding by NPOV and pay particular attention to the WP:COI guideline. JoshuaZ 21:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The applicable policy and section here is WP:NPA#External links, which has been modified in recent days. - Crockspot 21:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed a replacement for the WP:NOR#Sources section of Wikipedia:No original research at Wikipedia talk:No original research#Sources proposal. The proposal focuses on what sources should be relied upon and how to handle other references, in relation to original research. Cheers! Vassyana 16:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
What is the policy about citation location? Should one put it on a phrase, on the sentence, at the end of a paragraph? Suppose two sentences in a paragraph have the same source? Can the citation be at the end of the second sentence?-- Filll 16:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I cannot seem to get this information from WP:REF or similar areas. Which of these is correct?
I think the second one looks better and makes articles more consistent, but I still see the first style. Can I get some comments on this one? Thanks Timneu22 02:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe this user page debate should get more attention. Editors should weigh in on whether this sort of alleged administrator POV rollcall violates WP:CIVIL and/or WP:USER. If such lists are uncivil, I think we should ask whether it would also be uncivil for a users to post them on public talk pages. Cool Hand Luke 05:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it acceptable fair use of non-free images if album cover artwork is included in articles about songs on an album. An example is Image:SurferRosa.jpg in Where Is My Mind?. I would suggest that it is not fair use, as the image is not being used to illustrate the song itself. This has been discussed briefly before, but no real consensus was reached. I think this needs to be clarified as it affects a huge number of articles. Thanks Papa November 14:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Per WP:COOL, I have not edit-warred on this, but I'm asking for the end of hostilities and edit-warring on a remarkably silly issue, and have one apology and one request, which I split into separate sections. THF 15:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Over the last six months, I have been subjected to an extraordinary amount of harassment because I sought to comply with WP:COI and disclosed my identity. In an effort to reduce the harassment, I made a username change, which I thought was a good compromise: long-time editors generally inclined to behave themselves knew who I was, trolls wouldn't be able to immediately pick me out. Unfortunately, due to a number of unenforced violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:STALK, this has had a counterproductive effect, as efforts to politely ask people not to gratuitously throw my real name around merely encouraged canvassing for systematic harassment. I strongly suspect that much of the combat over this was a proxy war for other Wikipedia controversies that had nothing to with me, but that some editors were seizing upon this dispute to create a precedent for attacking a more popular editor. So I'm just not going to ask any more, and would encourage people to not fight about it, and instead focus on the production of the encyclopedia.
I have to suspect that Wikipedia would not have treated me this way if I were left-wing, rather than right-wing.
Except this is more than a suspicion: it's a demonstrable fact. In February, I complained that the Drum Major Institute had retained two attorneys to act as "Civil Justice Wikipedia editors", and was systematically subverting Wikipedia by completely rewriting every article in my field, legal reform, to reflect solely left-wing views, making literally thousands of POV-pushing and original-research edits that violated Wikipedia policy even without the WP:COI violations. But when I linked to the blog post where they indicated their conflict of interest, I was immediately threatened with an indefinite block, administrators debated whether I should even be given the chance to apologize, and was sternly warned never to do it again--even though the same editor previously edited under her real name before starting a new account with a new username, but no record of her previous account's edit history. No one even suggested that I was not in the wrong, and I abjectly apologized.
I apologize to those who were offended by my invocation of WP:HARASS in what were literally identical circumstances. I am an attorney by training, and my mind thinks in terms of precedent, and this was an obvious application of precedent to facts precisely on point. It should have occurred to me sooner that the problem was with the original administrative decision in the first case to demand an apology from me and forbid me from repeating the evidence of COI.
I want to thank those who came to my defense, and I apologize to them if they are frustrated by my concession here after they spent so much effort on the issue.
I apologize to Wikipedia to the extent that my request for straightforward policies to be enforced as they had been previously enforced was disruptive. For the reasons stated above, these requests were in good faith.
I note that this incident raises three issues for discussion:
I would like to repeat again that, over the course of 7000 edits in over 2500 pages at Wikipedia, I have consistently tried to comply in good faith with the WP:COI guideline, seeking guidance from admins with legal training. I would again like to ask editors to comply with WP:NPA, and comment on edits, not editors: for all the complaining about me, no one has identified a single instance of a bad-faith mainspace edit. Compare and contrast SPA User:Drum Major Institute, which has made precisely one non-promotional edit in the course of its Wikipedia career without anyone saying boo or nominating its articles for AFDs.
I again ask that COI guidelines be enforced neutrally. Chip Berlet and William Connolley are permitted to edit articles in their field, even though they have very strong opinions, and even though they are attacked by trolls on- and off-wiki for the appearance of COI. But when they are attacked and harassed by trolls on-wiki, the trolls are blocked. In my case, however, not only are the trolls not blocked, but their demands are taken seriously: there are editors who are demanding that I entirely avoid not just articles in my field of expertise, but any controversial articles. I'd like not to have to fight the same battles over and over, and not have to wade through mud on such simple basic tasks as participation on the WP:BLP/N cleanup. Can we get a definitive and internally consistent ruling: are Chip, William, and I permitted to edit, and if so, under what constraints?
I note that an overexpansive COI ruling, while simultaneously permitting anonymous edits, is only going to cause more conflicts of interest, by making it perfectly clear that different rules apply for anonymous editors and non-anonymous editors. There is also discussion at WP:COI/N#Sicko, where I demonstrate that there is no reasonable interpretation of the COI guideline that suggests I should be prohibited from editing that article. THF 15:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a repeat of the argument I made at the Community Sanction board. I find it highly disingenuous that THF now wants us all to learn from his experience, as if is a victim, when in reality he caused a massive amount of disruption. The problem here is not one of COI, the problem is one of disruptive editing and Wikilawyering. I've outlined this case in my above comment. Our policies and guidelines protecting user anonymity are there to protect the NYPD police officer who makes a factual but unflattering edit to the Michael Bloomberg page, and should his identity be found out, may have ramifications for him with his job. However, if Fernando Ferrer, a Bloomberg opponent, began editing the Mayor's page, his identity would be pertinent to the discussion, and our guidelines and policies would not protect Ferrer. The situation with THF is analogous to the Ferrer situation, not the police officer. THF's career is to criticize public figures that disagree with his ideological point of view, and in the situation at hand, with Michael Moore in particular. Our guidelines and policies are there to protect those of us who are not public figures so that we may edit with knowledge we possess without fear of negative consequences in our waking life. Harassment, death threats, stalking, job problems. THF, who now says he has nothing to hide, so I am guessing he does not mind being called Ted Frank, has none of these issues and if he does, they are probably more a problem when he goes on Fox News than when he edits Wikipedia. Therein lies the rub: Ted has wanted to protect his identity against "unseen forces" on Wikipedia that he curiously is not concerned about when he goes on national television, with his face, employer and identity for a much larger audience to see. The problems I see for sanctioning are as follows:
Those are my arguments for sanctioning.
--David
Shankbone 17:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
1.4 Posting of personal information Posting another person's personal information (legal name, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily provides or links to such information himself or herself. This is because it places the other person at unjustified and uninvited risk of harm in "the real world" or other media. This applies whether or not the person whose personal information is being revealed is a Wikipedia editor. It also applies in the case of editors who have requested a change in username, but whose old signatures can still be found in archives.
AND
2 Off-wiki harassment Harassment of other Wikipedians in forums not controlled by the Wikimedia Foundation creates doubt as to whether an editor's on-wiki actions are conducted in good faith. As per WP:NPA#Off-wiki personal attacks, off-wiki harassment can and will be regarded as an aggravating factor by administrators and is admissible evidence in the dispute-resolution process, including Arbitration cases. In some cases, the evidence will be submitted by private email. As is the case with on-wiki harassment, off-wiki harassment can be grounds for blocking, and in extreme cases, banning. Off-wiki privacy violations shall be dealt with particularly severely.
Harassment of other Wikipedians through the use of external links is considered equivalent to the posting of personal attacks on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee has ruled that links to off-site harassment, personal attacks or privacy violations against Wikipedians are not permitted "under any circumstances" and must be removed. Such material can be removed on sight, and its removal is not subject to the three-revert rule. Repeated or deliberate inclusion of such material can be grounds for blocking.
There is not interpretation ArbCom was clear and the harassment is still on wikipedia So do something about it. (Hypnosadist) 18:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't a user conduct RfC be a much better forum for this? -- Iamunknown 17:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I hope I am not premature in saying that David and I have reached a reconciliation on his talk page. I hope that resolves the majority of the issues. I encourage discussion of the COI issue at WP:COI/N#Sicko. THF 21:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
The following tag is being used to tag photo displays, but I can find no specific guidline or policy that expresses a preference for removing picture galleries to Commons, nor can I find any prohibitions against the use of image galleries. -- Kevin Murray 21:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
This section contains an unencyclopedic or excessive gallery of images. |
Per a recent discussion I had with an anonymous editor who removed entire comments made by another editor, I'd like to know if there is a policy that states specifically, that comments you leave on your talk page, or other users' talk pages, may not be posted elsewhere. (Basically, an editor "quoted" an anon editor from his talk page to illustrate a point, and the anon editor feels that's against policy to do.) I've reviewed the policies and guidelines and find no such policy, in fact, the issue of other editors quoting you, is something mentioned more than once. Thanks in advance. Ariel♥ Gold 11:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:SIG states clearly that users should not transclude templates in signatures, but makes no mention of what to do when you find an unsuitable signature that transcludes a sub-page. Is MFD the best route to take? WP:DP and the MFD page do not make any specific mention of this unless I have missed something, and UAA looks unsuitable for this. Adrian M. H. 17:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Under what circumstances is it appropriate for an academic to update their own article here, with new publications, new interviews, new lectures etc?-- Filll 20:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
good example :
i put a trivia on
The Prince of Tides article, the movie, and some guy,
User talk:Spellcast, undid it : cause : "unsourced" - - - sometimes, when i'm on wiki, i'm really asking myself about intelligence, in general - - -
trivia text : "The actress Kate Nelligan, who plays Tom and Savannah's mother, Lila, was born on March 16th, 1950, and was older than her twins in the movie, Tom (played by Nick Nolte, born on February 8th, 1941) and Savannah (Melinda Dillon, October 13th, 1939)" : what more do we need, more than the birtdates?! ri-di-cu-lous, huh!
84.227.48.33 07:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- bravo, i never read something this *** about what a source is... in this case, the point is just to KNOW the bithdate: no one needs a source!!!! OR : you have to put in wiki all sources for all mentionned birthdates, good luck! 84.227.48.33 08:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
This whole discussion is very silly. First, it should be clarified that 84.227.48.33 means that the actress playing the mother was nine years younger than the actors playing her children. This is certainly an interesting fact, and Night Gyr's question implies that he didn't fully understand what 84.227.48.33 was talking about.
Second, Papa November is mostly wrong. Birth dates are rarely referenced (though that doesn't mean they shouldn't be), should not be removed for being unreferenced (though checking them and referencing them would be a splendid way to improve the encyclopedia), and, in my opinion most importantly, his last question about making up dates implies that anything unreferenced is made up or that allowing anything without a reference behind it is supporting factually inaccurate information. This is an enormous assumption of bad faith and simply not a logical conclusion. Atropos 20:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
i am User:84.227.48.33 : OF COURSE i was meaning the actress was "much" younger than her son+daughter in the movie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 84.226.96.243 07:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a proposal at User page: Collection of material proposed language to address user page posts about other Wikipedians at MfD that do not rise to the level of a WP:CSD#G10 speedy delete attack page. Please participate in that discussion. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 18:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
What's the status on this infobox? It's pointing to a dead Wikipedia instruction page, but is still being brandished over at Adult. -- Nathanael Bar-Aur L. 02:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering if the Guide to good indentation should be turned into a guideline. It's currently an essay and is fairly sensible. It just needs to gain consensus-- Pheonix15 17:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a question re what might or might not be the appropriate perspective for notability with respect to agents: The question is prompted by the fact that I created an initial entry for an agent (deceased) by the name of Kurt Hellmer, who had represented Max Frisch and Friedrich Dürrenmatt amongst others. The entry was deleted as non-notable. My thinking was that a literary agent who had represented such major authors was of some note in an encyclopedia. Now, in most cases, agents, even very successful ones, keep relatively low personal profiles in the general press. Therefore, unless an agent is just starting out, a personal publicity hound, or a ripoff artist, they tend (with some rare exceptions) not to be the subject of articles devoted solely to them as opposed to passing references in other sourceable articles or books. Now, perhaps WP simply isn't interested in the possibility of an entry for such folks, that they simply aren't as important to the community consensus as, for example, anime characters, reality show contestants, minor athletes, or porn stars. On the other hand, it would seem to me, to cite this particular example, that a literary agent who represented major writers such as Frisch and Durrenmatt is of some interest, is verifiable to the extent of verifiable references though not devoted solely to them as the subject, and is appropriate. How do others feel? Would whoever T S Eliot's agent may have been be of interest to WP, or not? AtomikWeasel 17:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
When did "Log in" grow the enter some weird letters requirement & why? It is frustrating. -- SGBailey 08:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I have created Wikipedia:Copyright on highway shields as a page to discuss and determine the copyright status of logos for highways, mainly toll roads. Please help, especially if you are familiar with copyright law. Thank you. -- NE2 03:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Using all of the parameters of the {{ otheruses4}} template as so:
resulting in the hatnote
seems like an abuse of the idea of a hatnote – can anyone point out an instance where a hatnote should point to four different articles, rather than to a disambiguation page? Even three other pages seems like too many – I would consider a four article disambiguation page far preferable to a wordy three article hatnote. Is there some existing rule of thumb for the threshold where a dab page should exist? If so, would there be support for changing this template to only allow disambiguating one or two (possibly three, but certainly not four) other pages? Does anyone know how to find which pages transclude this template with all the parameters filled? — Swpb talk | edits 15:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC) 19:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Question: Has this Arbcom ruling --
-- been superseded in any way other than WP:COI? (There was an identical finding in December 2005.) Please restrict answers to the general abstract Wikipedia rules and guidelines, without reference to particular individuals. Thank you. THF 23:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I asked this on the BLP noticeboard as well: This is a serious question - obviously we always should source articles, but do the particularly stringent BLP rules apply for a subject who is no longer alive? Specifically I'm talking about the removal of material that hasn't been adequately sourced(BLP) vs. adding a "Fact" tag requesting citations (most others). Thanks. Tvoz | talk 04:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I've given a comprehensive answer to this and to some followup questions at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#How_are_BLP_guidleines_interpreted_for_a_subject_who_is_dead.3F, and am closing this discussion to avoid WP:MULTI. THF 04:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
You beat me to it. Thanks. Tvoz | talk 05:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)