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Some Wikipedia policies such as neutral point of view and no personal attacks seem only to apply to editors and not to passing through insults, personal attacks, and derogatory characterizations made by political, media, and cultural figures against one another: For example when Ann Coulter called Bill Clinton a good rapist (not in the Wikipedia) or American Dad depicted Karl Rove as the Star Wars character Emperor Palpatine (in the Wikipedia).
Are there consistently applied principles to include or exclude insults and derogatory characterizations or is this a new area for policy? patsw 14:21, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
On the other hand, when an insult or attack becomes widely repeated, and is itself notable, or an issue in an actual verifiable controversy, it might be appropriate to mention it in the article about that controversy. Of courseit should be in a properly sourced quote. DES (talk) 17:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Other famous insults:
Perhaps that list gives some idea of at least one kind of case where an insult might be appropriate in an article.
DES
(talk) 20:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Gladstone and Disraeli were life-long political rivals, and opposed each other for Prime Minister of the UK, an office that each defeated the other for. I would say that their longstanding and well-documented personal dislike for each other is notable and an appropriate part of any article about either, whether the particular quote is used or not. The Reed quote is notable because it illustrated his style of debate (the comment was made on the floor of the House) but more because it illustrates his strong opposition to patronage appointements, a priciple that arguably cost him the Presidency of the United States (Tuchman does so argue in the book I cited, and used the quote as part of the argument). (It also illustrates his willingness to offend potential political allies, which is also relevant.) The Shaw excahange is more debatable, but does help illustrate his character and his relationship with his audiences. But the above were only examples I thought of off the top of my head, and i would consider any more deeply and of course have a verifiable citation before actually using it in an article. DES (talk) 23:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
New suggestion: Put the sample political insults cited in this discussion, and others as needed, in a separate page such as Political satire or a new page created for the purpose. Then link to the separate page as needed from the relevant articles on politicians. -- Sitearm | Talk 17:48, 2005 August 8 (UTC)
Here is a link to a mixed bag of jokes about Ted Kennedy. [3] Some are really good, and the seem to capture his influence on popular culture. There is a popular culture section on the tricky dick page. Are these kinds of things notable?-- Silverback 04:09, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
A change to the current Wikipedia tagline has been proposed for discussion and adoption here. Interested contributers please visit. Thank you for your help! -- Sitearm | Talk 20:04, 2005 August 7 (UTC)
Contributers supporting adding the disclaimer more prominently on Wikipedia pages please cite articles and sign here. Thank you for your help! -- Sitearm | Talk 13:44, 2005 August 8 (UTC)
The proposal has been updated:
A new proposal has been written to allow admins to block people that make frequent personal attacks (but only if the admin is an uninvolved party). Please visit and give your comments. It is still in the discussion stage, so no voting please. R adiant _>|< 09:39, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Just advising of the existance of this page. All discussions should go on that page, jguk 08:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
There are two very different naming proposals up at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (subnational entities) and I would enjoy comment from the community on them. Subnational entities are things like U.S. states, Irish counties, Ukrainian oblasts, Japanese prefectures, etc. The term can also apply to lower-level entities like U.S. counties, Japanese districts, etc., but the primary purpose of the standards as they are now is to find the best standard for naming the first-level divisions. Votes are now being taken, I suppose. Thank you! -- Golbez 04:56, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Is there a policy on contributors 'signing' articles that they submit? I would have thought that, once submitted, it belongs to the community. In the one case I have seen, the (presumed) author added their name and email address. -- 82.43.52.87 18:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I have been extolling the virtues of this Wikipedia to my son who has just returned from a railway trip round Eastern Europe and Turkey. He wanted to know if it would have helped him find current information useful to travelers (restaurants, hostels, days and time of entries to sites etc). I thought it would be useful for this but I find there is little of that sort of information available. His point was that all the guide books are very unreliable and out of date, so a collaborative venture like this would be perfect for keeping this sort of information up to date. Is there a policy which prevents such volatile information being listed here? -- Johnpaddy 15:53, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
You might want to check out Wikitravel, although, to be honest, I haven't visited it lately, so I really don't know how up-to-date or extensive it is. Zoe 18:37, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a directory nor a link collection. The Wikipedia article on a city is likely to be much smaller than the phone directory categories for "Museums", "Restaurants" and "Hotels". ( SEWilco 16:51, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
An anonymous user had posted this in Talk:Omar Bakri Muhammad:
I find the sentence in Italics VERY HIGHLY irritating and offensing for the Islam religion (If he's talking about the prophet Muhammad).
I'm wondering, could we allow religious racist insult in Wikipedia? If it's on a talk page, is it okay? And if policies state that they are not allowed, should we delete these kind of statements or just strike it? And what about the user? Should he get blocked by considering it a kind of vandalism? And does it apply to registred users?
Please I need to see what Wikipedia policies state about this kind of behaviour. CG 15:26, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
The page Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes (aka WP:CLS) has a long history though I have never heard about it before today. As of this morning there was no tag to indicate that it has ever been accepted as a guideline by the community, and despite having two archives worth of talk pages, it seems to have spent more time in edit wars than actually having been discussed whether it has consensus. I have now stuck a {{ proposed}} tag on it and would invite discussion.
My immediate motivation in doing so is that this page was cited as policy for deleting a navigational template at WP:TFD, since the page says:
Which seems to go against the common practice of having navigational templates to related topics even though there is not necessarily a natural, linear, and complete set defining those related topics. Also this particular specification seems to have been largely rejected in two previous discussions here and here, though no one has ever actually removed it.
Given that part of the page seems to be inconsistent with common practice, the rest of it probably needs a good hard look too. Wikipedia probably does need a page to discuss the various ways of organizing information, and by posting here I am hopeful that people to take a serious look at the page we have now and think about what rules really should apply for the usage of lists, categories and article series boxes. Of course some of this is also clearly redundant to Wikipedia:Categorization and Wikipedia:Lists, though the former does in fact link to WP:CLS. Dragons flight 01:24, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing this up! I'm working with categories and subcategories in computer and video game articles with some other interested contributors. There are a LOT of these articles. There is some risk of edit wars as to what articles go in what categories and what categories are subcategories of others BUT as long as an article is categorized it will automatically show up on a referring page SOMEWHERE (pauses for breath). Need to know how to assign and work with categories. Like lists, need to develop skills to collaborate. Will follow this discussion with interest. Thanks! -- Sitearm | Talk 21:24, 2005 August 13 (UTC)
Take a look at Wikipedia: Sending letters, mainly the snail mail section, and tell me what you think. Feel free to copyedit - the writing seems a little stilted to me. Andre ( talk) 20:39, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
User:Babajobu was upset by the many occurences of "the Prophet Muhammad, PBUH" found in various Islam-related articles written by devout Muslims. He believes, and I agree, that this usage is inherently POV. He has been removing these terms wherever he finds them. However, he also believes that ANY use of the term "prophet" in relation to a religious figure is inherently POV, implying that the "prophet" was truly divinely inspired. I disagree, and have been reversing some of his edits in Islam-related articles. I'm not a Muslim and I don't think that using the terms "the prophet" or "the prophet Muhammad" is inherently POV. I think of the word "prophet" as a descriptor, which implies nothing about the truth of the supposed prophecies.
Babajobou has agreed to suspend his prophet-removal campaign (which could conceivably affect thousands of religion-related articles) while the matter is discussed in a community forum. Is "prophet" an endorsement, or simply a useful descriptor, like "shaman" or "priest"? As an editor, I'd like to be able to use the term, just so that I can vary the words that I'm using. Otherwise the article starts to sound stilted.
I should perhaps add that removing the caps from "Prophet" doesn't necessarily make the term NPOV, at least in my opinion, and that keeping a disengaged tone in the article may require some careful copyediting. I just don't want a blanket prohibition on the use of the word "prophet" in Wikipedia. Zora 23:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
On "false prophets" in Judaism and Christianity: I think this demonstrates the point nicely that in these faiths (Islam, too), being a prophet is not merely a matter of self-definition. if it were, there would be no such thing as a "false" prophet. They are regarded as "false" because their claims of having been in communication with God are rejected as fabricated and not real. The colloquial definition provided by the Times is different from the way the term is used in the monotheistic religions. All this makes the term at the very least ambiguous and open to multiple interpretations, which is reason enough for ditching it except in the first, qualified instance. Babajobu 00:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't think a religious definition trumps a dictionary definition. I don't think most users read "prophet" as an endorsement, either. I've been working on Islam-related articles for a long time, removing PBUHs, changing Prophet to prophet, removing instances of "prophet" when it seemed necessary, and no one heretofore has said that my articles are too pious. I think you've just become sensitized to the issue, B, and you're starting to see bias where there is none.
Reminds me of a friend of mine who was upset by her noisy upstairs neighbors. I was visiting her one day when she stopped and said, "Listen, would you? There they are, making noise again!" I couldn't hear anything. She was on such high alert for upstairs noise that she was starting to hear it even when an outsider couldn't.
Instead of a blanket policy of "no use of the word prophet without a modifier", I'd prefer to deal with articles one-by-one. There IS a problem, there ARE too many obscure Islam-related articles that have just been cut-n-pasted from religious websites, and there is a lot of editing to be done. It just calls for judgement, not black-and-white thinking. Zora 02:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
When the emphasis is on Muhammad's legacy as a prophet then the word prophet should be used. That is the reason why he is important in Islamic tradition. It is not bias it is a common term of reference and help differentiate between
Muhammad and
Muhammad. What Zora is saying makes sense... people don't react if the encyclopedia says "prophet" and assume that's a fact or POV... they are sensible enough to realize the multiple definitions of the word and its context. Of course there are some instances that must be fixed... but as a rule banning the term is no good.
gren
グレン 02:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
We allow Saints, so we can surely allow Prophets. Gdr 10:43:07, 2005-08-12 (UTC)
Yes, "Saint" is a title, like "Doctor". Note that it has a range of meanings; see saint. We don't restrict the use of "Saint" to someone who has been canonized by the Roman Catholic Church or glorified by the Eastern Orthodox Church, we use it for people commonly known by that title. By using the title, Wikipedia doesn't take a position on whether a saint is really in heaven or capable of miracles, we are just reflecting common usage. Gdr 15:22:06, 2005-08-12 (UTC)
There other similar terms that don't have people waiting in the wings to scream at you when you use them, so they aren't noticed as much. I'm thinking in particular of "Buddha". "Siddhartha Gautama was the Buddha" is a statement in the same general category as "Muhammad was the Prophet" or "Jesus was the Christ". Thus, "Jesus Christ" is a redirect to "Jesus", which is fine. But "Gautama Buddha" is the title of a page, and "Siddhartha Gautama" redirects there, rather than the other way around. And we have statements like "At the age of eighty, the Buddha ate his last meal ...." Clearly not NPOV. There is a discussion about this in Talk:Gautama Buddha, but it seems to have ended this spring with no changes being made. More generally, I'm wondering what other words have similar issues associated with them. Someone needs to make a list. — Nowhither 20:39, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Dear all
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia. I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts. Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia. This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia? Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs. Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia? If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!! Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess. But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it? Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians. Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family. How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there? Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito. Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country. Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians). Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled). Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors). Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed. Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims. Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web. There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia. The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia is@on.net.mk
Good criticism like this is hard to come by! Can we sort this out?
Kim Bruning 03:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people. In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town. Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?... A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time. Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case? Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free. Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.
On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.
On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS??? BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.
In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites. I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change. How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?
Senceirly, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia
JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS. WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!
The problem is that Wikipedia ignores completely the Macedonian POV and promotes the Bulgarian and Greek POV. Why is that?
I don't want Wikipedia to support Macedonian POV. No way. I just want Wikipedia to stop supporting the anti-Macedonian POVs (but to keep them as information) and to include the Macedonian POV (as information too). I repeat, as information, without taking sides in this issue.
Just to give you a hint of how serious is this. Bulgarian and Greek POVs are to ignore the Macedonian nation. I am here, I exist and I am Macedonian. And Wikipedia supports these POVS and says that I (as Macedonian, or Macedonian Slav like Wikipedia is treating us, no matter is offensive for us) am a artificial creation of Tito and I don't exist. How would you feel? Would you like to be in my position?
Thanks for the support. You won't beleive what all I could read here. Wikipedia is some kind of 'internet holocaust' against the Macedonians. We are completely ignored and presented as creation of Tito. Nonsence. For days I am trying to edit the bullshit that can be found here, very neutrally. I never erased anything, I just added that there is a Macedonian POV. The Wikipedia administrators simply erased it and kept only the Bulgarian and Greek nationalistic POV, which is domplete denying of all the Macedonian history till 1945th. We are even called Macedonian Slavs. It is truth, we are mostly Slavic. But they completely ignore any conection we have with the Antique Macedonians. And that is not all. All our history after the 6th century, fights for independence, culture and church was presented as a part of the Bulgarian history. I won't waste my time on edits here on Wikipedia that will latter be erased. I will transfer the battlefield somewhere else. Wikipedia publically claims its neutrality. But, obviously, it is ignoring 2,5 million people and stealing their history, culture and identity. So, this is a classic case of breaking the basic humman rights of the 2,5 million Macedonians around the globe. I am quite familiar with this because I am highly involved in politics and I am a member of 2 international human rights organizations, which are quite powerful. My political party (the biggest one in Macedonia with great conections in the world) will be glad to get Wikipedia in front of the International Human rights court. Let's see how will they feel when they become an issue in the world press for breaking human rights.
I have to fight againt assimilation of my nation. We constantly experience this for centuries and I am not planning to stand at the side and watch. If no one wants to hear me now, they would be forced to.
Again thank you for your support Best regards, I_sterbinski ... posted at 04:59, August 6, 2005 by 62.162.197.128
OK, here is my answer. For the last few days I keep editing the Macedonia page, very, very neutrally. I even wrote some things that are deffinitly not in favor of me, as a Macedonian.
And, every single time my edit was erased and the old version of the text still stays. I asked anyone who wants to change my edit to contact me and discuss about it. NOONE did, but my edit was still erased. Let me repeat that this is going on for days.
I registered at Wikipedia with a hope that I will take a part of its editing. But, it looks like that I am wasting my time because all my edits that I worked for hours are simply erased. And, let me repeat again that I was not editing according to my POV. I was keeping it neutral 100%.
(If you would like to see my edit, check the Macedonia page on Wikipedia several times, so maybe you will reach it in the moment when my edits are on. You would recognise my edit because instead of the word "controversially", has the words "disputed by Greece" at the beggining of the text, next to Republic of Macedonia)
Another thing. I did not ment to threat anyone. If I wanted to do so, I would send that message directly to the administrators and the other people involved in Wikipedia since its beggining.
I just expressed my deep dissapointment from Wikipedia and my anger of its assimilation supports. As a Human rights worker and politician, I will do everything I can to present what Wikipedia is doing to the Macedonian nation (denying it and ignoring it, promoting lies and assimilation point of view).
Putting this so called 'threats' was ment to show at least to some people that assimilation of a specific ethnicity is very serious political and social issue and breaking of the basic human rights.
I do not have some tremendous conections around the world. But I know where to present this issue to make it as public as possible. And, as a human rights worker, I am very familiar with this issues and It is more than obvious that Wikipedia (as a information media) is breaking the basic human rights of more than 2.5 million people.
As a human rights worker is my obligation to react on this. Beeing a Macedonian just makes it more personal.
It is pitty that you are more concerned about what I write here than about the lies that Wikipedia is promoting. This is just one example. I already was informed that I am not the first one who is accusing Wikipedia for breaking Human rights in one of the Human rights organizations I am working in, on a completely different issue. So, Macedonia is not the only example of this weakness Wikipedia has. Too bad that noone of you involved here cares enought to try fix this weakness. Not just about the Macedonia issue. All issues that there are complaints about.
My Macedonian friend, if I may call you that. You bring up a problem that is in the nature of Wiki. Taking everything you say at face value, someone who disagrees with you goes in and changes everything you write. But the person who is doing this is NOT the "administrator" of Wikipedia, just some individual who disagrees with you. As I see it, you have two options. You can try to get the person who changes what you have written and refuses to discuss it banned. Or you can just delete what he has written and change it back to what you have written, and see who gets tired first. 209.247.222.115 01:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
There has been a proposal to standardize the format of all infoboxes across Wikipedia. Discussion whether to adopt the standard, and, if so, what should go into the standard, will start to take place at Wikipedia Talk:Infobox standardisation -- hike395 06:14, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
I just want to voice my objection to the deletion of "non-notable" articles. What that means in the current VfD system is actually only the deletion of acticles about people, websites, and social phenomenon that are deemed non-notable. No one is marking entries for tiny villages in Lithuania as non-notable. No one complains that we have an article for nearly every broadcast tower in the United States. Why not include "non-notable" content? You can't say it won't be notable in the future. If the content is truly non-notable, then no one will search for it or link to it. However, if someone wants that information, then it is available. Perhaps the only criteria for "non-notable" should be that no one has accessed that page within a fixed amount of time. If no one looks at a page for a year, then it is truly non-notable.
Removing this criteria would greatly reduce the number of VfD processes. -- Reinyday, 12 August 2005
I think the criteria for notability is frequency of mentions and articles about a topic in print, broadcast, cable, online, etc, OUTSIDE of WikiPedia. Notable means conspicuous, remarkable. The evidence for a topic's notability is frequent, observable, conspicuous mentions in human namespace. The number of hits on a topic within WikiPedia measures notability to the subset of humans who are WikiPedia readers, not necessarily to all humans. -- Sitearm | Talk 20:46, 2005 August 13 (UTC)
What is the Wikipedia policy on learner english? I am planning to get a group of (fairly high-level) students of English to write about their home city - the article in question is a stub... I intend for them to add to content already there, but not to take away what has already been written (unless it is erroneous). Is this fine - or am I going to incur wiki-wrath amoung more regular users?
You might also consider looking into the Simple English Wikipedia at http://simple.wikipedia.org. Zoe 04:50, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I have never seen such bias. Your explanation of the Drudge website is pathetically unintelligent and ignorant. I saw nothing but hardcore left opinions stated as if they were facts! You called the site "inaccurate or heavily biased". Which is it? "or"... It is neither and you obviously dont read it or understand that most of the time they show accurate stories 2 to 3 days ahead of "MAINSTREAM MEDIA". It is the best source of news because he tells it like it is no matter what party you are for! You guys are so extremely left, you fail to even see the possibility of wrong in your bias reporting of Drudge. I am an educator and will not allow my students on your site under my watch! EVER! IF I did though, it would be in a way that would explain how bias our media outlets have become! Sincerely (NOT), Educator
RESPONSE TO ORIGINAL COMMENTER: I think you have a valid concern. As a Wikipedia reader you have direct options: edit the article yourself to add citations of positive evaluations, edit the Talk page of the article yourself to express your concern to the other contributers, edit the article to add a "disputed neutral point of view" tag {{npov}}, or all three. WikiPedia stands by neutral point of view but it is enforced by reader/contributers like us. WikiPedia also stands by polite discussion. -- Sitearm | Talk 02:19, 2005 August 10 (UTC)
How can an educator prevent his students from visiting a website that their parents allow them to visit? I assume you're saying you wouldn't allow them on Wikipedia while in school under your so-called tutelage? In that case, if it were discovered that you were actually doing such a thing, we would probably contact the school district and ask them why their teachers were preventing access to one of the largest reference sites on the Internet. Zoe 20:22, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
NPOV says "represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view". There is a really interesting edit war going on in the Creation Science article that revolves around whether the dictionary definition of "science" can be used as "fact". If it can, then "Creation Science" can be factually presented as "pseudoscience". This is basically a "definition point of view" because some editors wish to present the topic from the point of view of the standard dictionary definition.
The alternative is that the definition for science depends on the point of view, and therefore Creation Science views itself to meet the definition of "science", and mainstream science views Creation Science as pseudoscientific nonsense.
Could someone who knows NPOV policy please explain whether a dictionary definition can be used as fact or must be presented as a POV? Perhaps the NPOV policy page could contain a new subsection titled "Defintion Point of View" and explain the correct answer. FuelWagon 02:22, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Anything in a dictionary relating to science is, by definition, a simplification. The foundation of modern science is the so-called scientific method, i.e. the process for making observations, recording data, and analysing data in a way that can be independently reproduced by other scientists whether using inductive or deductive reasoning. The intention in all this empiricism is to try to arrive at an objective truth as judged by those with an appropriate level of knowledge and understanding (the peer group). That is why the reference in the NPOV section refers to a majority. Not every hypothesis can be verified by everyone and, until there is a clear consensus, the hypothesis remains in a state of limbo as unproven. However, once a critical mass of opinion agrees on the answer to the hypothesis, that answer becomes the accepted theory unless and until a better theory comes along to replace it. The view of those who support a particular hypothesis is of no significance as against an established theory unless and until the hypotheses postulated can be reproduceably verified to the satisfaction of the peer group, at which point, the hypothesis becomes the established theory in substitution for the old theory. To justify an entry under a heading "Creation Science", there would have to be publication in journals of repute that have peer reviewing in place and that material would have to be empirically substantive. In default of approval by peers, there would be nothing that conforms to the requirements of the scientific method. - David91 16:49, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
There can be many different shades of meaning in the word "science" and it is only proper that dictionaries should reflect that range. But, as I indicated above, dictionaries are unhelpful in this context. The yes/no answer you seek is not easy to give, but here is my best shot. The point of the scientific method is to pose hypothetical questions and then seek data that will support answers, i.e. there will be a mass of factual information and, using either inductive or deductive reasoning, scientists will construct arguments that suggest that one answer is better than any other answer. So anyone can adduce facts. But that activity is only the first step in transforming fact into evidence into an argument that can answer a properly constructed hypothesis. So your despairing, "the deal is that we cannot present the mainstream definition of science as fact" is correct but irrelevant. Science is not about facts. That is not how the scientific method works. Hence, those who advocate what is termed "Creation Science" produce a mass of factual information in support of their ideas. As soon as those advocates postulate some testable hypotheses and begin utilising their facts to construct arguments that are considered convincing by the peer group currently constituting the scientific community, the sooner they can be admitted to the ranks of the scientists. As it is, so far as I am aware, no advocate of Creation Science has ever managed to do this. So it is not "science" nor is it "scientific" in the technical senses of those words. The consequence is that your first troublesome editor is correct but for the wrong reason. The second editor is simply wrong. The answer to the editorial challenge you face is to list the assertions of those who advocate Creation Science and then simply state that as soon as these assertions are converted into a theory, the first step towards converting mere speculation into potential science will have been taken. Until then, it is wholly unscientific. - David91 18:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Words are there to be used and there is nothing inherently wrong in Creationists using the word science or scientific in relation to their intellectual endeavours. I am reluctant to be drawn directly into the debate that continues on the CS Talk page so I will keep this answer short. It seems to be neutral to report the fact that this topic is labelled "Creation Science" and to list what is asserted. But this topic has to be contextualised. For better or worse, there is a power hierarchy in the Foucaultian sense that controls access to the discourse that would be labelled "empirical science". Although there have been examples of abuses in denying access to those who have later been found correct, the system seems to work reasonably well. Hence, those who wish access must adopt the currently accepted conventions for defining savoir (in this case, the scientific method) and present their work for evaluation by the power brokers of the empirical science community. If the power brokers give the work their imprimatur, then it will be accepted into the discourse and be treated as empirical science. So, those who practise CS may set up their own peer reviewing mechanisms and create their own discourse. That is their right in a free society. The word "science" is entirely proper as a part of the label for this purpose. But, it is not empirical science because it has yet to gain the requisite imprimatur from those that control access to that discourse. Hence, it must equally be neutral to exclude any implication that CS is empirical science and so could be taught alongside other topics of empirical science such as biology. But I strongly advise you to stop trying to reduce the debate to simplistic definitions or to open questions of who might have better ways to acquire knowledge. Empiricism and the scientific method have history on their side, and the role of peer reviewing to control access to the discourse is a notorious fact. If CS wants to gain access to the empirical science club, they have to play by that club's rules. Unless and until they do, they cannot claim to be members (and that's a fact!) - David91 19:08, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
"I don't believe CS. I don't think it is a science." So, that is your POV. Frankly, I have no interest in this subject at all but, my three postings to date are entirely consistent and the fact that you think I have changed my approach is your POV at work. They can call their subject whatever they like, That is their right. They can establish their own discourse but it can only be in parallel to the formal discourse produced through peer review by the scientific establishment. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as "mainstream science" and dictionary definitions are virtually worthless in this context. In the technical or empirical sense of the word, science is what the peer reviewers for the time being say it is. CS is therefore in a Catch 22-type situation. It is calling itself a science and it claims the right to be ranked alongside other sciences, but it declines to submit its work for peer review so that it can become one of those sciences and, by that omission, admits that it is not a science. - David91 20:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Would you restate the issue you see with the article as it currently stands? Here is a snapshot of the version I just read:
Revision as of 22:30, 2005 August 12. I'm really trying to understand. Thanks! --
Sitearm |
Talk 03:37, 2005 August 13 (UTC)
Is there a policy on what kind of English to use, and in what cases? That is, British or American English, for example. Maver1ck 06:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have any idea how many "problem users" ever end up as useful contributors? I'm not talking about people who have a strong POV and get into battles on certain pages but manage to contribute meaningfully elsewhere. I'm not talking about people who end up leaving Wikipedia in the midst of major battles. I'm talking about people who get into conflict from the start. I know a lot of people start off with angry exchanges - for example when their first article gets VfD'd. Most of these people are reasonable once they understand the system. I mean the people who show up with an axe to grind or a POV to push, or just show up to be disruptive. Can anyone cite any examples? Guettarda 23:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There's similar case with User:202.7.190.130. He makes changes to monarch titles and these changes get invariably reverted (as they do not fit Wikipedia common style). He doesn't respond to questions on talk page. He may be well intentioned but at the end there's lot of lost time and no progress. There should be some way to deal with such borderline cases. Pavel Vozenilek 19:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Please examine the case of User:DrZoidberg. He is not disruptive. However he spends a lot of time in the sandbox. His detractors say he wastes too much of wikipedias server resources for the sandbox. He was banned indefinitely for accidentaly breaking the sandbox. Young people need time to grow. Later they become responsible contributers.-- Jondel 02:20, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
We have a case on one of the talk pages where one guy keeps using the f word, in every comment This is the third time I'm writing that i don't fucking care about your beliefs, thoughts, worldviews or else Is this acceptable behavior?
--
fathermaximos 22:37, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Ever considered it is a problem system? The first thing most credible authors say about Wikipedia is "copyright problems". Somebody decided to make it their life's work to steal everything ever published, and hoped to get away with it by calling their massive hijacking of the publishing industry a charity. If it were really a charity, why is one man ruler for life? If this isn't wholesale theft, why not turn election of board of directors over to the community? Why not give the community the choice of electing a board president who will do something to stop the wholesale theft of copyrighted information. Maybe with true freedom, genuinely public-minded Wikipedia advocates would elect a president who would require that all Wikipedia articles attribute their sources, as Wikipedia attempts to require others to source material based on Wikipedia.
When people arrive here and see that intellectual property is being hijacked on a wholesale basis, of course they have no respect for the so-called community committing the theft. When anyone challenges the people who are creating this vast opus of unattributed, unsourced, stolen literature in plain terms anyone can understand, they are mobbed, called vandals, trolls, problem users and worse. Of course many of those less able to articulate exactly what is happening will sense that this is not a place worthy of respect and will treat it with all the contempt worthy of the rich-man's payload of loot they know it to be. WizUp 08:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Visit the RFA page and take your pick. WizUp 10:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC) I did your homework for you then. Take the case of Keetoowah -- the first one I picked from the page at random. A Keetoowah reposting directly from the tribal web site, information that was deleted from Wikipedia by people who have admit no firsthand knowledge of the matters at all. Instead of responding to what Keetoowah writes, respondants complain that Keetoowah doesn't respect them. Debate ensues in talk pages related to the article about whether Keetoowah properly affords respect to the supposedly culturally specific idiom "my dear Keetoowah". Then on RFA, two "editors" somehow "certify" that Keetoowah is seen as a problem user worthy of administrative intervention. None of which has anything to do with the accuracy of content and which has everything to do with systematically determining who can participate and who cant. BTW, I have no specific interest in the topic of the articles Keetoowah edited, nor in the related cultural issues, beyond exposing a so-called encyclopedia that is little more than a plagiarized mass-production of the racist, ethnocentric views of people who can afford to spend their days in front of a networked computer. WizUp 10:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Lets cut straight to the name calling. I'm a problem user. And what's more, I'm not fooled by your lilly white politeness -- you are a rude fuck. And when I followed my own suggestion to pick a random case from RFA, i found a paid advocate writing articles, apparently on his advocacy groups payroll, supporting a FAKE INDIAN. A FAKE INDIAN --- here that you rude fucker -- HE WAS PAID POLITICAL ADVOCATE WRITING ARTICLES SUPPORTING A FAKE INDIAN BUT YOU WOULD RATHER WHINE ABOUT MY MANNERS THAN FACE THE TRUTH. I don't hear any complaints from you about paid advocates being problem users. WHY? becuase they don't threaten the poor fragile ego that drove you into this new vanity journalism.
And that was on my first pick. I followed the article to another thread and found more lies and misiinformation used to weave togther whatever accurate information had been plagiarized into the article. What does it matter how fucking rude I am to you asshole? Do you have a self esteem problem, worm? IS teh mission here to build an accurate, original encyclopedia or to teach the world your form of manners? Well, your manners don't cut the butter on the streets of Bahgdad. If your army can't act nice at other people's checkpoints, WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK ANYONE NEEDS TO ACT NICE TO YOU JUST TO WRITE A TRUE ACCURATE ENCYCLOPEDIA. HUH FUCK? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, WHINER. SPEAK UP. Can't you think logically while someone is ridiculing you or are you so self conscious you have to silence the ridicule before your mind can engage? Goody for you because sticks and stones can break your bones but my words can STOP YOUR HEART if you let me have this kind of power, and by god I'll take it if you're gonna give it up. Yeh, we're problem users and we'll use you up and spit you out if you can't focus on facts instead of on who said what and how they said it. Thieves don't deserve respect. WizUp
Two recent dispute resolution rulings - one by the Arbcom and another by Jimbo Wales - have found that wiki-stalking for the purpose of harassment is a form of disruption and can result in severe banning penalties against editors who have engaged in it. User:The Recycling Troll was permanently banned by Wales for this type of stalking in March and User:Skyring was banned for 1 year for stalking by the Arbcom last week. [8] These decisions and growing consensus have given rise to a need to distinguish between these "bad" types of stalking, which are bannable offenses, and "good" types of following editors such as to remove a wave of vandalism from wikipedia.
According to the recent Arbcom decision's definition this distinction is as follows: wikistalking is "following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor. This is distinct from following a contributor in order to clear repeated errors." [9] The Arbcom then found that an editor had engaged in the first type and applied a ban to him. These recent precedents and efforts to clarify this important distinction in wiki-stalking have given rise to extensive discussions on its article regarding the best way to present it, and how to incorporate it into the guidelines for wikipedia users. Editors with suggestions on how this should be approached are invited to contribute to its development on the article's talk page. Thanks! Rangerdude 23:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
A second Wikipedia tagline at the top right of every page has been proposed at Wikipedia:Proposed update of MediaWiki:Tagline. Consensus is building to add "All articles are user-contributed." at top right of pages. Interested contributers please visit this page and comment. -- Sitearm | Talk 04:12, 2005 August 16 (UTC)
Where do these fall?
1) anyone can RFC you for anything. Better safe than sorry. I'd try "this is wrong", "This is factually wrong", or something that points to the content, not the editor. 2) I can't be bothered to follow someone around. The troublesome editors annoy me too much anyway. If they follow me around, there isn't much I'd do about that, but if they start mucking up articles I'm working on, I'd oppose any bad edits. FuelWagon 02:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Ohh, yes there is policies for this
Hows that for policies? gkhan 06:08, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I've been pondering an idea for the dispute resolution system around RFC's, and I thought I'd propose it and see if there's merit enough to do something with it. Basically, the idea is to take the user RFC and remove it from any association from the process for arbitration. I'm still not exactly sure of the entire process, but my understanding is that when someone requests arbitration, the committee may request an RFC if they think it will help or if they want more information. So there seems to be some soft linkage between an RFC and arbitration. And I've seen RFC's used by editors as an attempt to punish people they disagree with.
Basically, the idea would be to change the RFC to be a way for editors working in good faith to resolve a dispute. It would have no punitive results. The results of an RFC would not be used in arbitration. The fact that an editor is part of the RFC would not be viewed negatively against them. And the RFC itself would be deleted after some point. The language of the RFC form itself would be changed to some less accusatory tone, and more to a "we're part of a dispute with this user" attitude. A user RFC would actually be a "request for comments" as the name implies. If the editors on both sides are acting in good faith, then an RFC would allow some outside observers to comment, and any side that sees some problem with their own behaviour, they can change it, and the dispute can be resolved. Even deleted after some period of time.
The current RFC system, with it's accusatory tone, its evidence of disputed behaviour, its certifying users, its response, and all its formalities could be used as some precursor to arbitration.
There's somethign about the current RFC process that feels too "open ended", in that you can submit just about anything in the 'evidence' pile, and the "dispute" can be some vague, nebulous disagreement that several editors have with one individual. There is something to this approach that has the flavor of "mob rule" rather than "rule of law". The formal dispute processes should be restricted to specific policy violations. This might change the current RFC system into an "incident report" that would focus on one edit, or a number of edits on the same article within a short period of time. There is subjective interpretation of what constitutes a "NPOV violation" or even a violation of "NPA", and the result would then be a number of editors who would vote aye/nay as to whether the specific incident qualifies as a violation.
There should also be some way to separate "witnesses" from "jurors". People involved with the incident can testify what they think. People not involved with the incident can vote. The definition of "involved" could be written into a script which checks the edit histories of the user accused of violating some policy and the person making a comment and finds out how much interaction they've had. It may not be possible to have a hard and fast separation between "witness" and "juror", but at the very least, some metric should be possible that would indicate how much involvment a commenter has with the parties involved.
If it might end up in arbitration, then some sense of a commenter's involvement seems warranted. If someone who has never worked on an article involving any of the editors involved, votes that the person violated policy, that would seem to be less biased than if someone who has a long history of working with the person accused of violating policy. Allies might vote "innocent" even if the specific incident was a violation. Enemies might vote "guilty" even if the specific incident was not a violation.
Also, there seems to be no "statute of limitations", which has its reasons for existence in any rule of law: witnesses start to forget what happened. witnesses go away, can't be found, drop out. It would seem that if someone hasn't filed a ticket for a specific incident within three months (insert time of choice), it should be chalked up to experience and the forgive and forget rule should be applied.
Anyway, there may be pieces of the dispute resolution system that already handle this and I'm just not aware of their existence. If so, please point me in the right direction and I will happily educate myself on how they work. FuelWagon 16:57, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
If you weren't here when it happened, Wikipedia:Village pump (news)#It's official: we DOSed OpenFacts explains: During a ten-minute blackout of Wikipedia's servers, both the IRC channel and OpenFacts where overwhelmed by many frustrated Wikipedians.
While User:Xiong advocates a money-based solution (see discussion in the News section), there is probably a quick fix to this problem, and that is expanding our list of contingency pages.
Here are Wikipedia related pages that I have found useful when Wikipedia is down.
Nonetheless, expanding the links on the contingency page will not be a monumental technical task to do, so I'd like to get feedback from Wikipedian's who perhaps reject my recommendations or have their own favorite contingency site. — Ambush Commander( Talk) 14:38, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
i frequently check wiki for less known musical artists, these articles are often still stubs. what bothers me is the many different stub categories people use, band, artist, mucisian, ... sometimes i can understand why something was chosen but still that many different categories isn't useful in my opinion. is anything done in this area or is it just accepted? and is there a list of stub categories availble? Boneyard 09:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Redirect, redirects are used to direct the user to the appropriate article when searching using the search box. But does that apply to templates? I'm wondering why do redirects to template exist? (eg: {{ alternateuses}} redirects to {{ otheruses}}). CG 20:37, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Several times in recent months, we've been through the issue of where to put templates related to internal Wikipedia projects (COTW, WikiProjects, etc.), as opposed to templates that give information to the reader (e.g., about disputed content). Most recently, we had a discussion at Wikipedia:Template locations, and it was generally agreed that most meta-templates belong on talk pages. However, my effort to standardize the treatment of these templates is being resisted by Fenice, a user who seems particularly attached to getting these templates directly on the articles. More input would be welcome, currently at Wikipedia talk:This week's improvement drive. -- Michael Snow 20:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
There is a discussion in Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 August 16 about the validity (or otherwise) of entries for Prospective Parliamentary Candidates. Is is fairly clear that party members are trying to keep the votes in the positive side, but the important factor here is that not one of the candidates is either an elected official nor known nation wide. They are, in some notable cases, twice failed candidates. It would cause a very worrying precedent if all prospective candidates were allowed separate entries on Wiki - it would mean every single candidate for every single election in every single nation on earth could be allowed space here based on this example.
I urge those in charge to consider seriously the impact of having PPCs on Wiki. Unless those people are fallen leaders or the like, they should not be here. dok 15:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Because of the recent heavy discussion about adding a second Wikipedia tagline, additional proposed updates to the main tagline are being documented here. All interested contributers please participate and comment in this important discussion. -- Sitearm | Talk 05:10, 2005 August 18 (UTC)
On the Helios Airways Flight 522 page, someone has posted a passenger list, listing name, age, city, occupation and nationality of each of the victims. I don't think a list like this belongs in an encyclopedic article, others disagree, see also Talk:Helios Airways Flight 522. What is the Wikipedia policy on things like this? JoanneB 15:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
At the bottom of the Thin client page (just to use one example) there's several links to companies that are selling specific products. I've removed a few others, and I think RI did too.
Should Wikipedia allow links to companies who are selling a specific category of project from the external links page, or should this be cleaned up at every opportunity? How do links to commercial companies factor into the impartiality discussion? -- Karlkatzke 21:50, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I was very surprised to learn recently that wikipedia was NOT an encyclopedia like those we are all used to using. Most people will not check for your disclaimers before looking for information, and they presume that what they find are well-researched facts. I only discovered this myself when I came across some information listed for a topic that was clearly opinion and was, in fact, gossip. You are therefore responsible for contributing to the spread of gossip and false data. Despite your disclaimer, you ARE presenting yourself as an ecyclopedia website, knowing that people will be deceived.
The very least that you can do is to have a heading on EACH page that appears, which says, "Wikipedia Makes No Guarantee of Validity." It would also be more correct of you, and certainly more ethical, if you called yourself, "Wikipedia, the user-created encyclopedia."
Linda Estabrook User talk:66.159.201.20 11:54, 2005 July 15
RESPONSE: Linda, would you cite the article that contains opinion and needs clean-up? We are collecting examples to support a proposal to make a disclaimer more evident at Wikipedia:Proposed_update_of_MediaWiki:Tagline Thank you for your help! -- Sitearm | Talk 13:22, 2005 August 8 (UTC)
A newcomer's response. While objecting to the escalation from, "I found one item of gossip" to "you are deceiving the world", I have been surprised by the ubiquity of wiki hits on Google. Since so many more people will now be accessing wiki material, perhaps Estabrook is correct in advocating a little navel gazing. Megatron's defence that wiki is a better class of crap than that served up by other internet sources is hardly reassuring and we should all recognise that most users will never trouble themselves to check the references against the possibility of vandalism. So perhaps the answer is that there should be a roving commission to survey material and, when it finds articles that are sound, it should lock them. If a future editor believes any of the locked articles to require revision, let that be argued before editorial access is allowed. In this way, there is a slow accretion of core material that can justify the label of encyclopedia. Peripheral and evanescent material can be allowed to come and go as fashions change, with or without warning notices. - David91 18:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
But, on two occasions, when I attempted to change pages (in my opinion for the better) I was met with hostility and abuse. I rapidly withdrew. Those pages remain unacceptable (in my opinion). So, please, let us not assume that placing warning messages as headers will resolve inherent behavioural and content problems. - David91 07:11, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I am not touting for a campaign of "Be nice to the old guy." Everywhere, I see reports of edit wars, sometimes over really meaningful issues such as what to call English counties or disputes over puncutation which get blown out of proportion by those with a non-consensual approach to life. "Looking into my editing history" is not going to add significantly to a pattern of behaviour that is well-documented and clearly inhibiting the growth of encyclopedic standards. The reason why I have not become involved in comparable disputes is that, at the first sign of abuse, I walk away. A plague on the causes of all those who will not iterate through reasonable debate towards some generally accepted point of view. - David91 05:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Wikipedia should include some type of disclaimer on every article page. I really like Wikipedia and try to contribute when I can. However, as a person involved in research, I would not advocate using Wikipedia per se as a reference; but, I would certainly recommend starting with Wikipedia in performing research. Wikipedia is a wonderful resource with many advantages over traditional reference works. Wikipedia is also very up-front about how it is created and its limitations. Unfortunately, most people will not realize the difference between Wikipedia and a traditional encyclopedia. Of course, no matter what you do, there will always be a few people who don't read the disclaimer. That said, I think it would be good to include a disclaimer anyway so that the majority of readers will get the idea. -- Wyatts 18:19, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Besides Wikipedia having an (existing) overall disclaimer, each contributer (including me) should have a disclaimer on her contribution to an article, and each article should have a disclaimer acknowledging where information may have other interpretations (e.g., scientific principles, evaluations of an artist's work quality and "themes", etc.). My son reads Wikipedia a LOT to study science and math and this led me to get an account. Fortunately he knows you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Fortunately many of the articles list references so that information can be checked. I have discovered inaccuracies (e.g., ranking of largest ports in the world out of date). To be rigorous you have to look stuff up and compare, which process Wikipedia helps. But Wikipedia certainly is not a definitive authority on any of its articles. Nor is any other encyclopedia or online references.
So it's caveat lector!
Sitearm 03:37, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
No encyclopedia is perfectly accurate, of course. I am not suggesting that Wikipedia needs a disclaimer because it is somehow not as good as other encyclopedias. (I believe Wikipedia is superior is many ways.) Instead, I am suggesting that Wikipedia needs a disclaimer because it is different from traditional encyclopedias. I think the disclaimer should inform people of the difference, not be an apology for any inaccuracies (since all encyclopedias have inaccuracies.) Articles published in traditional encyclopedias represent the "official" output of the organization, and have gone through some kind of formal review for accuracy and style. This does not guarantee perfection, but readers know that the publisher has made some attempt to utilize knowledgeable experts, carefully reviews any changes/updates, and stands behind its work. People quickly learn which publishers do this well (or not) and hence establish the reputation of the publisher. People can then confidently reference such traditional encyclopedias in their research. Wikipedia is different. Articles can be written by anyone, editors are not selected according to their credentials, articles can be changed often, and there is no formal approval process. On the other hand, Wikipedia relies on collaboration to improve the accuracy of articles (which is generally very good), content is more relevant and up-to-date, there is tremendous breadth, and it's free. I might not reference Wikipedia directly, but I would certainly start there for research. So, with all that said, if there is ever going to be a disclaimer, then we need to start throwing out suggestions. It should be fairly short and emphasize the difference in Wikipedia, not an out for any inaccuracies. Here is something to chew on:
I'm sure this could be improved (in a collaborative manner.) -- Wyatts 22:10, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I found the
Wikipedia:General disclaimer, and it is blunt and comprehensive. No doubt here: "Wikipedia Makes No Guarantee Of Validity." So that leaves saying something about why Wikipedia is special and why it's a good encyclopedia to use (
Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is so great) or saying nothing at all and letting the work and its use speak for themselves. I'm sure this disclaimer issue will come up in the near future, say, when someone blames something on an article read here. The short disclaimer suggested by Wyatts is a good size to put on every page (is that what we're aiming for?), but its gist is covered in the existing full-size disclaimer page. How about "caveat lector et scriptor" ("let the reader and writer be cautious") to keep it short and add class? Hey, it might just work.
Sitearm 06:23, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Mamawrites, I am OK with not using the Latin. It's a play on "caveat emptor" ("buyer beware"), but yes, it would just confuse things. Main point is, I agree with Wyatts to put something at the top of every page in addition to the tiny disclaimer link at the bottom. I feel uneasy at the statement about "not subject to formal approval..." and it's covered in the full page anyway. How about:
Sitearm 06:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC) P.S. How do we submit what we agree on as a proposal to be added?
Although I wanted something about "not subject to formal approval", I must admit that it sounds too negative, and I could not find a good way to word it. I agree with the version from Mamawrites:
It has the following points in its favor: It is short enough to include at the top of every page; it emphasizes the difference between Wikipedia and traditional encyclopedias; it is a positive statement; it provides enough information to inform the user that the articles are not formally vetted; and it puts the link to the full disclaimer in a prominent place where people are more likely to check it out. As to how to submit, I looked at Wikipedia:How to create policy. The more I look, the more it seems that this discussion should be transferred to Wikipedia: Village Pump (proposals). A policy is more like what to do in certain situations. This is a specific proposal to modify the general article template (but not a bug). But, even if it is moved, I'm not sure how to get it out of the proposal stage to be implemented. Perhaps we can set up a separate page like Wikipedia:Disclaimer proposal? I think we will need to recruit one or more administrators to eventually set up a vote and then get it to those who can actually implement the change. -- Wyatts 14:25, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I made a new proposal page at Proposed update of MediaWiki:Tagline and posted notices here and here. -- Sitearm | Talk 04:29, 2005 August 5 (UTC)
That looks like a good way to go. I'll start posting discussion at Proposed update of MediaWiki:Tagline. -- Wyatts 17:01, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The primary proposal has been updated. Contributer's comments and support still requested here. -- Sitearm | Talk 19:48, 2005 August 11 (UTC)
I think there are issues behind the tagline discussion that need some closer examination. My comments are rather lengthy, and so I have deviated from the usual procedure and created a separate subsection for them. I hope no one is too terribly offended. (By the way, there seem to be many discussions on this topic. If there is a better place for my comments, could someone please point me to it. — Nowhither)
I note that people are speaking in terms of a "disclaimer". Disclaimers are legal devices. The idea is to cut through the PR nonsense and (using legal nonsense) indicate precisely what is being claimed. Usually contractual issues and protection from lawsuits are the relevant concerns. I think this is an issue for Wikipedia, and it needs some serious thought; however, this does not seem to be what is driving this discussion.
What is driving the discussion is the problem that people come to Wikipedia, read it, use it, maybe even edit it, without a clear understanding of what it is. Some of them end up using information from Wikipedia in inappropriate ways due to these misunderstandings. Others, when they discover what Wikipedia really is, feel deceived and angry. Others get angry due to their misunderstandings. Quite rightly, we want to address these issues.
So, first, I want to point out that we cannot be responsible for other people's actions. Many, many people are in the habit of grabbing some source, getting info from it, and leaving, without considering reliability or other important issues. Many of these people use Wikipedia. What can we do about them? Nothing. If someone does not want to give any thought to the source of his information, then all the explanatory text in the world will not help. Let us remember then, that some things are the reader's responsibility, not ours.
Second, Wikipedia is a new thing; the world has never seen its like before. We call it an "encyclopedia", and it is, I suppose. However, it is clear that many ideas that people associate with encyclopedias are not applicable to Wikipedia. But there is no word or phrase in any language that will concisely and thoroughly indicate to newcomers what Wikipedia is. So: how can we quickly give people a clear understanding of all the principles and process behind Wikipedia? We cannot. It is a waste of time to try.
Third, there is an annoying tradition, especially in the U.S., that every time there is an issue with some product, we tack on a notice in its documentation somewhere. I bought a soldering torch. It came with pages & pages of lists of things I should be careful of. And I read and thoughtfully considered every one, of course, wouldn't you? </sarcasm> This approach was invented by corporate lawyers as a way of stopping lawsuits. It is not about communicating information, and so it is not going to help us here. In short, don't think that tacking on gobs of little notices is going to eliminate everyone's misunderstandings about Wikipedia.
Fourth, there are people who are interested in checking their sources. Many of them do not understand Wikipedia, and could make better use of it if they did. Taglines & such are not going to help them. What might help is a short essay about who writes Wikipedia, and what approval processes an article needs to go through to be published in it. (Yes, I know, the short answer is "none", but we should still talk about the approval process, since that is what people want to know about.) The hard part is helping people find this explanation.
And that is what I think it is important to address. So, how about an actual concrete proposal: Instead of a tagline intended to communicate what Wikipedia is all about, how about a tagline that tells people where they can find such information, aimed at newcomers. Here's an off-the-top-of-my-head line: "Who writes Wikipedia?" Then make this a link to that short essay I mentioned earlier (or to a list of bullet points, or whatever). I'm sure someone can improve on this idea. Please do.
As I said earlier, I think disclaimers should be discussed as well, but that is a separate issue. Disclaimers are about contracts and lawsuits, not introducing newcomers and explaining things.
— Nowhither 07:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm sure this subject is familiar to old hands, but I've just finished wasting time writing (because it was requested on the list of math articles needed) an article titled "Transcendental Numbers" (title produced by clicking on the math request list) only to find that there is already a perfectly good article titled "Transcendental numbers". The only difference is the lower case "n". Now, I realize that it would only take four searches to find all possible cases in two word article titles, but it would take eight searches in the case of three word article titles and sixteen searches for four word article titles. Wouldn't it be simpler to have a non-case-sensitive search engine?
While I'm on the subject, I suspect that hundreds of the requested articles already exist, but with lower case first letters rather than upper case first letters.
Rick Norwood
I find the search box inconsistent when looking for articles I know are in the name space. I also see (and have added myself) redirect pages for proper names ( John Lennon and John lennon) etc. to fix it. I am curious where to learn how often the index is updated, and what is the difference between the "Go" and "Search" buttons under the search box? ?:| -- Sitearm | Talk 22:42, 2005 August 20 (UTC)
I appreciate your help, but let me give you a specific example that seems to contradict your advice. Under Missing Articles -> Science -> Maths7 there is a request for an article on Triangular Number. Clicking on that link results in the claim that there is no article with that title. Typing "Triangular number" into the search box and clicking SEARCH, which is suposed to be case insensitive, again results in the information that there is no such article. But typing in "Triangular Number" (capital N) redirects me to the article "Triangular numbers" (lower case n). Very strange. Even stranger, I just tried exactly the same searches, but from this page, and both searches redirected me to the proper page. Maybe I made an error, but I'm afraid there may be a deep problem within the search engine. In any case, the large number of articles that ignore the convention that article titles should be in the singular exacerbates the problem.
The problem is reproducable. Here is what I typed in the search box, after following the links I listed above: Triangular number (cut and pasted to avoid the possibility of a typo). I hit search -- no results. Just now, I cut and pasted the exact same phrase in the search box to the left of this page, hit search, and found the correct article. In other words, the search box works differently in different locations.
There is still the problem of the thousands of entries in the maths list, many or most of which are already articles with minor variations of case and number. Is there any way to work through them more efficient than repeated searches on variants, one by one?
Rick Norwood
An offsite index is available, but I'm not sure how often it's updated. Joyous (talk) 17:13, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Ooops. I inadvertantly posted with no headline, which caused Wikipedia to append my "Genealogy and Wikipedia" post on this post. Inadvertant addition removed by -- Billf 03:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Recently I've run across a number of articles in which someone has laid out a long series of section headings, and then put no text in the sections. This strikes me as poor practice, but I can't find anything relevant in existing policy/guidelines. Assuming there is no guideline on this at present, I think we need one saying that articles should be "complete" in some sense. Thoughts? — Nowhither 11:40, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Feel free to remove headings if they contain little or no content. (See my rant on the subject.) Gdr 15:22:57, 2005-08-14 (UTC)
There are photographs of private individuals uploaded with no mention that the subjects approve of, do not object to, or even know about the public dissemination of their images. Surprisingly the only discussion I could find on the matter is from almost two years ago: Wikipedia_talk:Image_use_policy#Privacy_Rights,_Publicity_Rights. If I take a picture of a friend, doesn't she have a reasonable expectation I will respect her privacy and not post it to a widely distributed Internet encyclopedia? Not fully knowing the law, I don't see it as much a legal issue as one of basic respect. A guideline, at least urging caution about uploading photographs of non-public figures, should be issued. - choster 03:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
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Some Wikipedia policies such as neutral point of view and no personal attacks seem only to apply to editors and not to passing through insults, personal attacks, and derogatory characterizations made by political, media, and cultural figures against one another: For example when Ann Coulter called Bill Clinton a good rapist (not in the Wikipedia) or American Dad depicted Karl Rove as the Star Wars character Emperor Palpatine (in the Wikipedia).
Are there consistently applied principles to include or exclude insults and derogatory characterizations or is this a new area for policy? patsw 14:21, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
On the other hand, when an insult or attack becomes widely repeated, and is itself notable, or an issue in an actual verifiable controversy, it might be appropriate to mention it in the article about that controversy. Of courseit should be in a properly sourced quote. DES (talk) 17:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Other famous insults:
Perhaps that list gives some idea of at least one kind of case where an insult might be appropriate in an article.
DES
(talk) 20:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Gladstone and Disraeli were life-long political rivals, and opposed each other for Prime Minister of the UK, an office that each defeated the other for. I would say that their longstanding and well-documented personal dislike for each other is notable and an appropriate part of any article about either, whether the particular quote is used or not. The Reed quote is notable because it illustrated his style of debate (the comment was made on the floor of the House) but more because it illustrates his strong opposition to patronage appointements, a priciple that arguably cost him the Presidency of the United States (Tuchman does so argue in the book I cited, and used the quote as part of the argument). (It also illustrates his willingness to offend potential political allies, which is also relevant.) The Shaw excahange is more debatable, but does help illustrate his character and his relationship with his audiences. But the above were only examples I thought of off the top of my head, and i would consider any more deeply and of course have a verifiable citation before actually using it in an article. DES (talk) 23:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
New suggestion: Put the sample political insults cited in this discussion, and others as needed, in a separate page such as Political satire or a new page created for the purpose. Then link to the separate page as needed from the relevant articles on politicians. -- Sitearm | Talk 17:48, 2005 August 8 (UTC)
Here is a link to a mixed bag of jokes about Ted Kennedy. [3] Some are really good, and the seem to capture his influence on popular culture. There is a popular culture section on the tricky dick page. Are these kinds of things notable?-- Silverback 04:09, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
A change to the current Wikipedia tagline has been proposed for discussion and adoption here. Interested contributers please visit. Thank you for your help! -- Sitearm | Talk 20:04, 2005 August 7 (UTC)
Contributers supporting adding the disclaimer more prominently on Wikipedia pages please cite articles and sign here. Thank you for your help! -- Sitearm | Talk 13:44, 2005 August 8 (UTC)
The proposal has been updated:
A new proposal has been written to allow admins to block people that make frequent personal attacks (but only if the admin is an uninvolved party). Please visit and give your comments. It is still in the discussion stage, so no voting please. R adiant _>|< 09:39, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Just advising of the existance of this page. All discussions should go on that page, jguk 08:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
There are two very different naming proposals up at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (subnational entities) and I would enjoy comment from the community on them. Subnational entities are things like U.S. states, Irish counties, Ukrainian oblasts, Japanese prefectures, etc. The term can also apply to lower-level entities like U.S. counties, Japanese districts, etc., but the primary purpose of the standards as they are now is to find the best standard for naming the first-level divisions. Votes are now being taken, I suppose. Thank you! -- Golbez 04:56, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Is there a policy on contributors 'signing' articles that they submit? I would have thought that, once submitted, it belongs to the community. In the one case I have seen, the (presumed) author added their name and email address. -- 82.43.52.87 18:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I have been extolling the virtues of this Wikipedia to my son who has just returned from a railway trip round Eastern Europe and Turkey. He wanted to know if it would have helped him find current information useful to travelers (restaurants, hostels, days and time of entries to sites etc). I thought it would be useful for this but I find there is little of that sort of information available. His point was that all the guide books are very unreliable and out of date, so a collaborative venture like this would be perfect for keeping this sort of information up to date. Is there a policy which prevents such volatile information being listed here? -- Johnpaddy 15:53, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
You might want to check out Wikitravel, although, to be honest, I haven't visited it lately, so I really don't know how up-to-date or extensive it is. Zoe 18:37, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a directory nor a link collection. The Wikipedia article on a city is likely to be much smaller than the phone directory categories for "Museums", "Restaurants" and "Hotels". ( SEWilco 16:51, 14 August 2005 (UTC))
An anonymous user had posted this in Talk:Omar Bakri Muhammad:
I find the sentence in Italics VERY HIGHLY irritating and offensing for the Islam religion (If he's talking about the prophet Muhammad).
I'm wondering, could we allow religious racist insult in Wikipedia? If it's on a talk page, is it okay? And if policies state that they are not allowed, should we delete these kind of statements or just strike it? And what about the user? Should he get blocked by considering it a kind of vandalism? And does it apply to registred users?
Please I need to see what Wikipedia policies state about this kind of behaviour. CG 15:26, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
The page Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes (aka WP:CLS) has a long history though I have never heard about it before today. As of this morning there was no tag to indicate that it has ever been accepted as a guideline by the community, and despite having two archives worth of talk pages, it seems to have spent more time in edit wars than actually having been discussed whether it has consensus. I have now stuck a {{ proposed}} tag on it and would invite discussion.
My immediate motivation in doing so is that this page was cited as policy for deleting a navigational template at WP:TFD, since the page says:
Which seems to go against the common practice of having navigational templates to related topics even though there is not necessarily a natural, linear, and complete set defining those related topics. Also this particular specification seems to have been largely rejected in two previous discussions here and here, though no one has ever actually removed it.
Given that part of the page seems to be inconsistent with common practice, the rest of it probably needs a good hard look too. Wikipedia probably does need a page to discuss the various ways of organizing information, and by posting here I am hopeful that people to take a serious look at the page we have now and think about what rules really should apply for the usage of lists, categories and article series boxes. Of course some of this is also clearly redundant to Wikipedia:Categorization and Wikipedia:Lists, though the former does in fact link to WP:CLS. Dragons flight 01:24, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing this up! I'm working with categories and subcategories in computer and video game articles with some other interested contributors. There are a LOT of these articles. There is some risk of edit wars as to what articles go in what categories and what categories are subcategories of others BUT as long as an article is categorized it will automatically show up on a referring page SOMEWHERE (pauses for breath). Need to know how to assign and work with categories. Like lists, need to develop skills to collaborate. Will follow this discussion with interest. Thanks! -- Sitearm | Talk 21:24, 2005 August 13 (UTC)
Take a look at Wikipedia: Sending letters, mainly the snail mail section, and tell me what you think. Feel free to copyedit - the writing seems a little stilted to me. Andre ( talk) 20:39, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
User:Babajobu was upset by the many occurences of "the Prophet Muhammad, PBUH" found in various Islam-related articles written by devout Muslims. He believes, and I agree, that this usage is inherently POV. He has been removing these terms wherever he finds them. However, he also believes that ANY use of the term "prophet" in relation to a religious figure is inherently POV, implying that the "prophet" was truly divinely inspired. I disagree, and have been reversing some of his edits in Islam-related articles. I'm not a Muslim and I don't think that using the terms "the prophet" or "the prophet Muhammad" is inherently POV. I think of the word "prophet" as a descriptor, which implies nothing about the truth of the supposed prophecies.
Babajobou has agreed to suspend his prophet-removal campaign (which could conceivably affect thousands of religion-related articles) while the matter is discussed in a community forum. Is "prophet" an endorsement, or simply a useful descriptor, like "shaman" or "priest"? As an editor, I'd like to be able to use the term, just so that I can vary the words that I'm using. Otherwise the article starts to sound stilted.
I should perhaps add that removing the caps from "Prophet" doesn't necessarily make the term NPOV, at least in my opinion, and that keeping a disengaged tone in the article may require some careful copyediting. I just don't want a blanket prohibition on the use of the word "prophet" in Wikipedia. Zora 23:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
On "false prophets" in Judaism and Christianity: I think this demonstrates the point nicely that in these faiths (Islam, too), being a prophet is not merely a matter of self-definition. if it were, there would be no such thing as a "false" prophet. They are regarded as "false" because their claims of having been in communication with God are rejected as fabricated and not real. The colloquial definition provided by the Times is different from the way the term is used in the monotheistic religions. All this makes the term at the very least ambiguous and open to multiple interpretations, which is reason enough for ditching it except in the first, qualified instance. Babajobu 00:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't think a religious definition trumps a dictionary definition. I don't think most users read "prophet" as an endorsement, either. I've been working on Islam-related articles for a long time, removing PBUHs, changing Prophet to prophet, removing instances of "prophet" when it seemed necessary, and no one heretofore has said that my articles are too pious. I think you've just become sensitized to the issue, B, and you're starting to see bias where there is none.
Reminds me of a friend of mine who was upset by her noisy upstairs neighbors. I was visiting her one day when she stopped and said, "Listen, would you? There they are, making noise again!" I couldn't hear anything. She was on such high alert for upstairs noise that she was starting to hear it even when an outsider couldn't.
Instead of a blanket policy of "no use of the word prophet without a modifier", I'd prefer to deal with articles one-by-one. There IS a problem, there ARE too many obscure Islam-related articles that have just been cut-n-pasted from religious websites, and there is a lot of editing to be done. It just calls for judgement, not black-and-white thinking. Zora 02:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
When the emphasis is on Muhammad's legacy as a prophet then the word prophet should be used. That is the reason why he is important in Islamic tradition. It is not bias it is a common term of reference and help differentiate between
Muhammad and
Muhammad. What Zora is saying makes sense... people don't react if the encyclopedia says "prophet" and assume that's a fact or POV... they are sensible enough to realize the multiple definitions of the word and its context. Of course there are some instances that must be fixed... but as a rule banning the term is no good.
gren
グレン 02:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
We allow Saints, so we can surely allow Prophets. Gdr 10:43:07, 2005-08-12 (UTC)
Yes, "Saint" is a title, like "Doctor". Note that it has a range of meanings; see saint. We don't restrict the use of "Saint" to someone who has been canonized by the Roman Catholic Church or glorified by the Eastern Orthodox Church, we use it for people commonly known by that title. By using the title, Wikipedia doesn't take a position on whether a saint is really in heaven or capable of miracles, we are just reflecting common usage. Gdr 15:22:06, 2005-08-12 (UTC)
There other similar terms that don't have people waiting in the wings to scream at you when you use them, so they aren't noticed as much. I'm thinking in particular of "Buddha". "Siddhartha Gautama was the Buddha" is a statement in the same general category as "Muhammad was the Prophet" or "Jesus was the Christ". Thus, "Jesus Christ" is a redirect to "Jesus", which is fine. But "Gautama Buddha" is the title of a page, and "Siddhartha Gautama" redirects there, rather than the other way around. And we have statements like "At the age of eighty, the Buddha ate his last meal ...." Clearly not NPOV. There is a discussion about this in Talk:Gautama Buddha, but it seems to have ended this spring with no changes being made. More generally, I'm wondering what other words have similar issues associated with them. Someone needs to make a list. — Nowhither 20:39, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Dear all
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia. I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts. Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia. This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia? Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs. Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia? If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!! Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess. But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it? Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians. Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family. How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there? Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito. Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country. Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians). Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled). Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors). Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed. Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims. Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web. There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia. The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia is@on.net.mk
Good criticism like this is hard to come by! Can we sort this out?
Kim Bruning 03:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people. In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town. Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?... A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time. Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case? Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free. Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.
On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.
On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS??? BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.
In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites. I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change. How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?
Senceirly, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia
JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS. WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!
The problem is that Wikipedia ignores completely the Macedonian POV and promotes the Bulgarian and Greek POV. Why is that?
I don't want Wikipedia to support Macedonian POV. No way. I just want Wikipedia to stop supporting the anti-Macedonian POVs (but to keep them as information) and to include the Macedonian POV (as information too). I repeat, as information, without taking sides in this issue.
Just to give you a hint of how serious is this. Bulgarian and Greek POVs are to ignore the Macedonian nation. I am here, I exist and I am Macedonian. And Wikipedia supports these POVS and says that I (as Macedonian, or Macedonian Slav like Wikipedia is treating us, no matter is offensive for us) am a artificial creation of Tito and I don't exist. How would you feel? Would you like to be in my position?
Thanks for the support. You won't beleive what all I could read here. Wikipedia is some kind of 'internet holocaust' against the Macedonians. We are completely ignored and presented as creation of Tito. Nonsence. For days I am trying to edit the bullshit that can be found here, very neutrally. I never erased anything, I just added that there is a Macedonian POV. The Wikipedia administrators simply erased it and kept only the Bulgarian and Greek nationalistic POV, which is domplete denying of all the Macedonian history till 1945th. We are even called Macedonian Slavs. It is truth, we are mostly Slavic. But they completely ignore any conection we have with the Antique Macedonians. And that is not all. All our history after the 6th century, fights for independence, culture and church was presented as a part of the Bulgarian history. I won't waste my time on edits here on Wikipedia that will latter be erased. I will transfer the battlefield somewhere else. Wikipedia publically claims its neutrality. But, obviously, it is ignoring 2,5 million people and stealing their history, culture and identity. So, this is a classic case of breaking the basic humman rights of the 2,5 million Macedonians around the globe. I am quite familiar with this because I am highly involved in politics and I am a member of 2 international human rights organizations, which are quite powerful. My political party (the biggest one in Macedonia with great conections in the world) will be glad to get Wikipedia in front of the International Human rights court. Let's see how will they feel when they become an issue in the world press for breaking human rights.
I have to fight againt assimilation of my nation. We constantly experience this for centuries and I am not planning to stand at the side and watch. If no one wants to hear me now, they would be forced to.
Again thank you for your support Best regards, I_sterbinski ... posted at 04:59, August 6, 2005 by 62.162.197.128
OK, here is my answer. For the last few days I keep editing the Macedonia page, very, very neutrally. I even wrote some things that are deffinitly not in favor of me, as a Macedonian.
And, every single time my edit was erased and the old version of the text still stays. I asked anyone who wants to change my edit to contact me and discuss about it. NOONE did, but my edit was still erased. Let me repeat that this is going on for days.
I registered at Wikipedia with a hope that I will take a part of its editing. But, it looks like that I am wasting my time because all my edits that I worked for hours are simply erased. And, let me repeat again that I was not editing according to my POV. I was keeping it neutral 100%.
(If you would like to see my edit, check the Macedonia page on Wikipedia several times, so maybe you will reach it in the moment when my edits are on. You would recognise my edit because instead of the word "controversially", has the words "disputed by Greece" at the beggining of the text, next to Republic of Macedonia)
Another thing. I did not ment to threat anyone. If I wanted to do so, I would send that message directly to the administrators and the other people involved in Wikipedia since its beggining.
I just expressed my deep dissapointment from Wikipedia and my anger of its assimilation supports. As a Human rights worker and politician, I will do everything I can to present what Wikipedia is doing to the Macedonian nation (denying it and ignoring it, promoting lies and assimilation point of view).
Putting this so called 'threats' was ment to show at least to some people that assimilation of a specific ethnicity is very serious political and social issue and breaking of the basic human rights.
I do not have some tremendous conections around the world. But I know where to present this issue to make it as public as possible. And, as a human rights worker, I am very familiar with this issues and It is more than obvious that Wikipedia (as a information media) is breaking the basic human rights of more than 2.5 million people.
As a human rights worker is my obligation to react on this. Beeing a Macedonian just makes it more personal.
It is pitty that you are more concerned about what I write here than about the lies that Wikipedia is promoting. This is just one example. I already was informed that I am not the first one who is accusing Wikipedia for breaking Human rights in one of the Human rights organizations I am working in, on a completely different issue. So, Macedonia is not the only example of this weakness Wikipedia has. Too bad that noone of you involved here cares enought to try fix this weakness. Not just about the Macedonia issue. All issues that there are complaints about.
My Macedonian friend, if I may call you that. You bring up a problem that is in the nature of Wiki. Taking everything you say at face value, someone who disagrees with you goes in and changes everything you write. But the person who is doing this is NOT the "administrator" of Wikipedia, just some individual who disagrees with you. As I see it, you have two options. You can try to get the person who changes what you have written and refuses to discuss it banned. Or you can just delete what he has written and change it back to what you have written, and see who gets tired first. 209.247.222.115 01:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
There has been a proposal to standardize the format of all infoboxes across Wikipedia. Discussion whether to adopt the standard, and, if so, what should go into the standard, will start to take place at Wikipedia Talk:Infobox standardisation -- hike395 06:14, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
I just want to voice my objection to the deletion of "non-notable" articles. What that means in the current VfD system is actually only the deletion of acticles about people, websites, and social phenomenon that are deemed non-notable. No one is marking entries for tiny villages in Lithuania as non-notable. No one complains that we have an article for nearly every broadcast tower in the United States. Why not include "non-notable" content? You can't say it won't be notable in the future. If the content is truly non-notable, then no one will search for it or link to it. However, if someone wants that information, then it is available. Perhaps the only criteria for "non-notable" should be that no one has accessed that page within a fixed amount of time. If no one looks at a page for a year, then it is truly non-notable.
Removing this criteria would greatly reduce the number of VfD processes. -- Reinyday, 12 August 2005
I think the criteria for notability is frequency of mentions and articles about a topic in print, broadcast, cable, online, etc, OUTSIDE of WikiPedia. Notable means conspicuous, remarkable. The evidence for a topic's notability is frequent, observable, conspicuous mentions in human namespace. The number of hits on a topic within WikiPedia measures notability to the subset of humans who are WikiPedia readers, not necessarily to all humans. -- Sitearm | Talk 20:46, 2005 August 13 (UTC)
What is the Wikipedia policy on learner english? I am planning to get a group of (fairly high-level) students of English to write about their home city - the article in question is a stub... I intend for them to add to content already there, but not to take away what has already been written (unless it is erroneous). Is this fine - or am I going to incur wiki-wrath amoung more regular users?
You might also consider looking into the Simple English Wikipedia at http://simple.wikipedia.org. Zoe 04:50, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I have never seen such bias. Your explanation of the Drudge website is pathetically unintelligent and ignorant. I saw nothing but hardcore left opinions stated as if they were facts! You called the site "inaccurate or heavily biased". Which is it? "or"... It is neither and you obviously dont read it or understand that most of the time they show accurate stories 2 to 3 days ahead of "MAINSTREAM MEDIA". It is the best source of news because he tells it like it is no matter what party you are for! You guys are so extremely left, you fail to even see the possibility of wrong in your bias reporting of Drudge. I am an educator and will not allow my students on your site under my watch! EVER! IF I did though, it would be in a way that would explain how bias our media outlets have become! Sincerely (NOT), Educator
RESPONSE TO ORIGINAL COMMENTER: I think you have a valid concern. As a Wikipedia reader you have direct options: edit the article yourself to add citations of positive evaluations, edit the Talk page of the article yourself to express your concern to the other contributers, edit the article to add a "disputed neutral point of view" tag {{npov}}, or all three. WikiPedia stands by neutral point of view but it is enforced by reader/contributers like us. WikiPedia also stands by polite discussion. -- Sitearm | Talk 02:19, 2005 August 10 (UTC)
How can an educator prevent his students from visiting a website that their parents allow them to visit? I assume you're saying you wouldn't allow them on Wikipedia while in school under your so-called tutelage? In that case, if it were discovered that you were actually doing such a thing, we would probably contact the school district and ask them why their teachers were preventing access to one of the largest reference sites on the Internet. Zoe 20:22, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
NPOV says "represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view". There is a really interesting edit war going on in the Creation Science article that revolves around whether the dictionary definition of "science" can be used as "fact". If it can, then "Creation Science" can be factually presented as "pseudoscience". This is basically a "definition point of view" because some editors wish to present the topic from the point of view of the standard dictionary definition.
The alternative is that the definition for science depends on the point of view, and therefore Creation Science views itself to meet the definition of "science", and mainstream science views Creation Science as pseudoscientific nonsense.
Could someone who knows NPOV policy please explain whether a dictionary definition can be used as fact or must be presented as a POV? Perhaps the NPOV policy page could contain a new subsection titled "Defintion Point of View" and explain the correct answer. FuelWagon 02:22, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Anything in a dictionary relating to science is, by definition, a simplification. The foundation of modern science is the so-called scientific method, i.e. the process for making observations, recording data, and analysing data in a way that can be independently reproduced by other scientists whether using inductive or deductive reasoning. The intention in all this empiricism is to try to arrive at an objective truth as judged by those with an appropriate level of knowledge and understanding (the peer group). That is why the reference in the NPOV section refers to a majority. Not every hypothesis can be verified by everyone and, until there is a clear consensus, the hypothesis remains in a state of limbo as unproven. However, once a critical mass of opinion agrees on the answer to the hypothesis, that answer becomes the accepted theory unless and until a better theory comes along to replace it. The view of those who support a particular hypothesis is of no significance as against an established theory unless and until the hypotheses postulated can be reproduceably verified to the satisfaction of the peer group, at which point, the hypothesis becomes the established theory in substitution for the old theory. To justify an entry under a heading "Creation Science", there would have to be publication in journals of repute that have peer reviewing in place and that material would have to be empirically substantive. In default of approval by peers, there would be nothing that conforms to the requirements of the scientific method. - David91 16:49, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
There can be many different shades of meaning in the word "science" and it is only proper that dictionaries should reflect that range. But, as I indicated above, dictionaries are unhelpful in this context. The yes/no answer you seek is not easy to give, but here is my best shot. The point of the scientific method is to pose hypothetical questions and then seek data that will support answers, i.e. there will be a mass of factual information and, using either inductive or deductive reasoning, scientists will construct arguments that suggest that one answer is better than any other answer. So anyone can adduce facts. But that activity is only the first step in transforming fact into evidence into an argument that can answer a properly constructed hypothesis. So your despairing, "the deal is that we cannot present the mainstream definition of science as fact" is correct but irrelevant. Science is not about facts. That is not how the scientific method works. Hence, those who advocate what is termed "Creation Science" produce a mass of factual information in support of their ideas. As soon as those advocates postulate some testable hypotheses and begin utilising their facts to construct arguments that are considered convincing by the peer group currently constituting the scientific community, the sooner they can be admitted to the ranks of the scientists. As it is, so far as I am aware, no advocate of Creation Science has ever managed to do this. So it is not "science" nor is it "scientific" in the technical senses of those words. The consequence is that your first troublesome editor is correct but for the wrong reason. The second editor is simply wrong. The answer to the editorial challenge you face is to list the assertions of those who advocate Creation Science and then simply state that as soon as these assertions are converted into a theory, the first step towards converting mere speculation into potential science will have been taken. Until then, it is wholly unscientific. - David91 18:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Words are there to be used and there is nothing inherently wrong in Creationists using the word science or scientific in relation to their intellectual endeavours. I am reluctant to be drawn directly into the debate that continues on the CS Talk page so I will keep this answer short. It seems to be neutral to report the fact that this topic is labelled "Creation Science" and to list what is asserted. But this topic has to be contextualised. For better or worse, there is a power hierarchy in the Foucaultian sense that controls access to the discourse that would be labelled "empirical science". Although there have been examples of abuses in denying access to those who have later been found correct, the system seems to work reasonably well. Hence, those who wish access must adopt the currently accepted conventions for defining savoir (in this case, the scientific method) and present their work for evaluation by the power brokers of the empirical science community. If the power brokers give the work their imprimatur, then it will be accepted into the discourse and be treated as empirical science. So, those who practise CS may set up their own peer reviewing mechanisms and create their own discourse. That is their right in a free society. The word "science" is entirely proper as a part of the label for this purpose. But, it is not empirical science because it has yet to gain the requisite imprimatur from those that control access to that discourse. Hence, it must equally be neutral to exclude any implication that CS is empirical science and so could be taught alongside other topics of empirical science such as biology. But I strongly advise you to stop trying to reduce the debate to simplistic definitions or to open questions of who might have better ways to acquire knowledge. Empiricism and the scientific method have history on their side, and the role of peer reviewing to control access to the discourse is a notorious fact. If CS wants to gain access to the empirical science club, they have to play by that club's rules. Unless and until they do, they cannot claim to be members (and that's a fact!) - David91 19:08, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
"I don't believe CS. I don't think it is a science." So, that is your POV. Frankly, I have no interest in this subject at all but, my three postings to date are entirely consistent and the fact that you think I have changed my approach is your POV at work. They can call their subject whatever they like, That is their right. They can establish their own discourse but it can only be in parallel to the formal discourse produced through peer review by the scientific establishment. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as "mainstream science" and dictionary definitions are virtually worthless in this context. In the technical or empirical sense of the word, science is what the peer reviewers for the time being say it is. CS is therefore in a Catch 22-type situation. It is calling itself a science and it claims the right to be ranked alongside other sciences, but it declines to submit its work for peer review so that it can become one of those sciences and, by that omission, admits that it is not a science. - David91 20:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Would you restate the issue you see with the article as it currently stands? Here is a snapshot of the version I just read:
Revision as of 22:30, 2005 August 12. I'm really trying to understand. Thanks! --
Sitearm |
Talk 03:37, 2005 August 13 (UTC)
Is there a policy on what kind of English to use, and in what cases? That is, British or American English, for example. Maver1ck 06:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have any idea how many "problem users" ever end up as useful contributors? I'm not talking about people who have a strong POV and get into battles on certain pages but manage to contribute meaningfully elsewhere. I'm not talking about people who end up leaving Wikipedia in the midst of major battles. I'm talking about people who get into conflict from the start. I know a lot of people start off with angry exchanges - for example when their first article gets VfD'd. Most of these people are reasonable once they understand the system. I mean the people who show up with an axe to grind or a POV to push, or just show up to be disruptive. Can anyone cite any examples? Guettarda 23:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There's similar case with User:202.7.190.130. He makes changes to monarch titles and these changes get invariably reverted (as they do not fit Wikipedia common style). He doesn't respond to questions on talk page. He may be well intentioned but at the end there's lot of lost time and no progress. There should be some way to deal with such borderline cases. Pavel Vozenilek 19:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Please examine the case of User:DrZoidberg. He is not disruptive. However he spends a lot of time in the sandbox. His detractors say he wastes too much of wikipedias server resources for the sandbox. He was banned indefinitely for accidentaly breaking the sandbox. Young people need time to grow. Later they become responsible contributers.-- Jondel 02:20, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
We have a case on one of the talk pages where one guy keeps using the f word, in every comment This is the third time I'm writing that i don't fucking care about your beliefs, thoughts, worldviews or else Is this acceptable behavior?
--
fathermaximos 22:37, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Ever considered it is a problem system? The first thing most credible authors say about Wikipedia is "copyright problems". Somebody decided to make it their life's work to steal everything ever published, and hoped to get away with it by calling their massive hijacking of the publishing industry a charity. If it were really a charity, why is one man ruler for life? If this isn't wholesale theft, why not turn election of board of directors over to the community? Why not give the community the choice of electing a board president who will do something to stop the wholesale theft of copyrighted information. Maybe with true freedom, genuinely public-minded Wikipedia advocates would elect a president who would require that all Wikipedia articles attribute their sources, as Wikipedia attempts to require others to source material based on Wikipedia.
When people arrive here and see that intellectual property is being hijacked on a wholesale basis, of course they have no respect for the so-called community committing the theft. When anyone challenges the people who are creating this vast opus of unattributed, unsourced, stolen literature in plain terms anyone can understand, they are mobbed, called vandals, trolls, problem users and worse. Of course many of those less able to articulate exactly what is happening will sense that this is not a place worthy of respect and will treat it with all the contempt worthy of the rich-man's payload of loot they know it to be. WizUp 08:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Visit the RFA page and take your pick. WizUp 10:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC) I did your homework for you then. Take the case of Keetoowah -- the first one I picked from the page at random. A Keetoowah reposting directly from the tribal web site, information that was deleted from Wikipedia by people who have admit no firsthand knowledge of the matters at all. Instead of responding to what Keetoowah writes, respondants complain that Keetoowah doesn't respect them. Debate ensues in talk pages related to the article about whether Keetoowah properly affords respect to the supposedly culturally specific idiom "my dear Keetoowah". Then on RFA, two "editors" somehow "certify" that Keetoowah is seen as a problem user worthy of administrative intervention. None of which has anything to do with the accuracy of content and which has everything to do with systematically determining who can participate and who cant. BTW, I have no specific interest in the topic of the articles Keetoowah edited, nor in the related cultural issues, beyond exposing a so-called encyclopedia that is little more than a plagiarized mass-production of the racist, ethnocentric views of people who can afford to spend their days in front of a networked computer. WizUp 10:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Lets cut straight to the name calling. I'm a problem user. And what's more, I'm not fooled by your lilly white politeness -- you are a rude fuck. And when I followed my own suggestion to pick a random case from RFA, i found a paid advocate writing articles, apparently on his advocacy groups payroll, supporting a FAKE INDIAN. A FAKE INDIAN --- here that you rude fucker -- HE WAS PAID POLITICAL ADVOCATE WRITING ARTICLES SUPPORTING A FAKE INDIAN BUT YOU WOULD RATHER WHINE ABOUT MY MANNERS THAN FACE THE TRUTH. I don't hear any complaints from you about paid advocates being problem users. WHY? becuase they don't threaten the poor fragile ego that drove you into this new vanity journalism.
And that was on my first pick. I followed the article to another thread and found more lies and misiinformation used to weave togther whatever accurate information had been plagiarized into the article. What does it matter how fucking rude I am to you asshole? Do you have a self esteem problem, worm? IS teh mission here to build an accurate, original encyclopedia or to teach the world your form of manners? Well, your manners don't cut the butter on the streets of Bahgdad. If your army can't act nice at other people's checkpoints, WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK ANYONE NEEDS TO ACT NICE TO YOU JUST TO WRITE A TRUE ACCURATE ENCYCLOPEDIA. HUH FUCK? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, WHINER. SPEAK UP. Can't you think logically while someone is ridiculing you or are you so self conscious you have to silence the ridicule before your mind can engage? Goody for you because sticks and stones can break your bones but my words can STOP YOUR HEART if you let me have this kind of power, and by god I'll take it if you're gonna give it up. Yeh, we're problem users and we'll use you up and spit you out if you can't focus on facts instead of on who said what and how they said it. Thieves don't deserve respect. WizUp
Two recent dispute resolution rulings - one by the Arbcom and another by Jimbo Wales - have found that wiki-stalking for the purpose of harassment is a form of disruption and can result in severe banning penalties against editors who have engaged in it. User:The Recycling Troll was permanently banned by Wales for this type of stalking in March and User:Skyring was banned for 1 year for stalking by the Arbcom last week. [8] These decisions and growing consensus have given rise to a need to distinguish between these "bad" types of stalking, which are bannable offenses, and "good" types of following editors such as to remove a wave of vandalism from wikipedia.
According to the recent Arbcom decision's definition this distinction is as follows: wikistalking is "following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor. This is distinct from following a contributor in order to clear repeated errors." [9] The Arbcom then found that an editor had engaged in the first type and applied a ban to him. These recent precedents and efforts to clarify this important distinction in wiki-stalking have given rise to extensive discussions on its article regarding the best way to present it, and how to incorporate it into the guidelines for wikipedia users. Editors with suggestions on how this should be approached are invited to contribute to its development on the article's talk page. Thanks! Rangerdude 23:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
A second Wikipedia tagline at the top right of every page has been proposed at Wikipedia:Proposed update of MediaWiki:Tagline. Consensus is building to add "All articles are user-contributed." at top right of pages. Interested contributers please visit this page and comment. -- Sitearm | Talk 04:12, 2005 August 16 (UTC)
Where do these fall?
1) anyone can RFC you for anything. Better safe than sorry. I'd try "this is wrong", "This is factually wrong", or something that points to the content, not the editor. 2) I can't be bothered to follow someone around. The troublesome editors annoy me too much anyway. If they follow me around, there isn't much I'd do about that, but if they start mucking up articles I'm working on, I'd oppose any bad edits. FuelWagon 02:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Ohh, yes there is policies for this
Hows that for policies? gkhan 06:08, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I've been pondering an idea for the dispute resolution system around RFC's, and I thought I'd propose it and see if there's merit enough to do something with it. Basically, the idea is to take the user RFC and remove it from any association from the process for arbitration. I'm still not exactly sure of the entire process, but my understanding is that when someone requests arbitration, the committee may request an RFC if they think it will help or if they want more information. So there seems to be some soft linkage between an RFC and arbitration. And I've seen RFC's used by editors as an attempt to punish people they disagree with.
Basically, the idea would be to change the RFC to be a way for editors working in good faith to resolve a dispute. It would have no punitive results. The results of an RFC would not be used in arbitration. The fact that an editor is part of the RFC would not be viewed negatively against them. And the RFC itself would be deleted after some point. The language of the RFC form itself would be changed to some less accusatory tone, and more to a "we're part of a dispute with this user" attitude. A user RFC would actually be a "request for comments" as the name implies. If the editors on both sides are acting in good faith, then an RFC would allow some outside observers to comment, and any side that sees some problem with their own behaviour, they can change it, and the dispute can be resolved. Even deleted after some period of time.
The current RFC system, with it's accusatory tone, its evidence of disputed behaviour, its certifying users, its response, and all its formalities could be used as some precursor to arbitration.
There's somethign about the current RFC process that feels too "open ended", in that you can submit just about anything in the 'evidence' pile, and the "dispute" can be some vague, nebulous disagreement that several editors have with one individual. There is something to this approach that has the flavor of "mob rule" rather than "rule of law". The formal dispute processes should be restricted to specific policy violations. This might change the current RFC system into an "incident report" that would focus on one edit, or a number of edits on the same article within a short period of time. There is subjective interpretation of what constitutes a "NPOV violation" or even a violation of "NPA", and the result would then be a number of editors who would vote aye/nay as to whether the specific incident qualifies as a violation.
There should also be some way to separate "witnesses" from "jurors". People involved with the incident can testify what they think. People not involved with the incident can vote. The definition of "involved" could be written into a script which checks the edit histories of the user accused of violating some policy and the person making a comment and finds out how much interaction they've had. It may not be possible to have a hard and fast separation between "witness" and "juror", but at the very least, some metric should be possible that would indicate how much involvment a commenter has with the parties involved.
If it might end up in arbitration, then some sense of a commenter's involvement seems warranted. If someone who has never worked on an article involving any of the editors involved, votes that the person violated policy, that would seem to be less biased than if someone who has a long history of working with the person accused of violating policy. Allies might vote "innocent" even if the specific incident was a violation. Enemies might vote "guilty" even if the specific incident was not a violation.
Also, there seems to be no "statute of limitations", which has its reasons for existence in any rule of law: witnesses start to forget what happened. witnesses go away, can't be found, drop out. It would seem that if someone hasn't filed a ticket for a specific incident within three months (insert time of choice), it should be chalked up to experience and the forgive and forget rule should be applied.
Anyway, there may be pieces of the dispute resolution system that already handle this and I'm just not aware of their existence. If so, please point me in the right direction and I will happily educate myself on how they work. FuelWagon 16:57, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
If you weren't here when it happened, Wikipedia:Village pump (news)#It's official: we DOSed OpenFacts explains: During a ten-minute blackout of Wikipedia's servers, both the IRC channel and OpenFacts where overwhelmed by many frustrated Wikipedians.
While User:Xiong advocates a money-based solution (see discussion in the News section), there is probably a quick fix to this problem, and that is expanding our list of contingency pages.
Here are Wikipedia related pages that I have found useful when Wikipedia is down.
Nonetheless, expanding the links on the contingency page will not be a monumental technical task to do, so I'd like to get feedback from Wikipedian's who perhaps reject my recommendations or have their own favorite contingency site. — Ambush Commander( Talk) 14:38, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
i frequently check wiki for less known musical artists, these articles are often still stubs. what bothers me is the many different stub categories people use, band, artist, mucisian, ... sometimes i can understand why something was chosen but still that many different categories isn't useful in my opinion. is anything done in this area or is it just accepted? and is there a list of stub categories availble? Boneyard 09:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Redirect, redirects are used to direct the user to the appropriate article when searching using the search box. But does that apply to templates? I'm wondering why do redirects to template exist? (eg: {{ alternateuses}} redirects to {{ otheruses}}). CG 20:37, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Several times in recent months, we've been through the issue of where to put templates related to internal Wikipedia projects (COTW, WikiProjects, etc.), as opposed to templates that give information to the reader (e.g., about disputed content). Most recently, we had a discussion at Wikipedia:Template locations, and it was generally agreed that most meta-templates belong on talk pages. However, my effort to standardize the treatment of these templates is being resisted by Fenice, a user who seems particularly attached to getting these templates directly on the articles. More input would be welcome, currently at Wikipedia talk:This week's improvement drive. -- Michael Snow 20:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
There is a discussion in Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Log/2005 August 16 about the validity (or otherwise) of entries for Prospective Parliamentary Candidates. Is is fairly clear that party members are trying to keep the votes in the positive side, but the important factor here is that not one of the candidates is either an elected official nor known nation wide. They are, in some notable cases, twice failed candidates. It would cause a very worrying precedent if all prospective candidates were allowed separate entries on Wiki - it would mean every single candidate for every single election in every single nation on earth could be allowed space here based on this example.
I urge those in charge to consider seriously the impact of having PPCs on Wiki. Unless those people are fallen leaders or the like, they should not be here. dok 15:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Because of the recent heavy discussion about adding a second Wikipedia tagline, additional proposed updates to the main tagline are being documented here. All interested contributers please participate and comment in this important discussion. -- Sitearm | Talk 05:10, 2005 August 18 (UTC)
On the Helios Airways Flight 522 page, someone has posted a passenger list, listing name, age, city, occupation and nationality of each of the victims. I don't think a list like this belongs in an encyclopedic article, others disagree, see also Talk:Helios Airways Flight 522. What is the Wikipedia policy on things like this? JoanneB 15:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
At the bottom of the Thin client page (just to use one example) there's several links to companies that are selling specific products. I've removed a few others, and I think RI did too.
Should Wikipedia allow links to companies who are selling a specific category of project from the external links page, or should this be cleaned up at every opportunity? How do links to commercial companies factor into the impartiality discussion? -- Karlkatzke 21:50, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I was very surprised to learn recently that wikipedia was NOT an encyclopedia like those we are all used to using. Most people will not check for your disclaimers before looking for information, and they presume that what they find are well-researched facts. I only discovered this myself when I came across some information listed for a topic that was clearly opinion and was, in fact, gossip. You are therefore responsible for contributing to the spread of gossip and false data. Despite your disclaimer, you ARE presenting yourself as an ecyclopedia website, knowing that people will be deceived.
The very least that you can do is to have a heading on EACH page that appears, which says, "Wikipedia Makes No Guarantee of Validity." It would also be more correct of you, and certainly more ethical, if you called yourself, "Wikipedia, the user-created encyclopedia."
Linda Estabrook User talk:66.159.201.20 11:54, 2005 July 15
RESPONSE: Linda, would you cite the article that contains opinion and needs clean-up? We are collecting examples to support a proposal to make a disclaimer more evident at Wikipedia:Proposed_update_of_MediaWiki:Tagline Thank you for your help! -- Sitearm | Talk 13:22, 2005 August 8 (UTC)
A newcomer's response. While objecting to the escalation from, "I found one item of gossip" to "you are deceiving the world", I have been surprised by the ubiquity of wiki hits on Google. Since so many more people will now be accessing wiki material, perhaps Estabrook is correct in advocating a little navel gazing. Megatron's defence that wiki is a better class of crap than that served up by other internet sources is hardly reassuring and we should all recognise that most users will never trouble themselves to check the references against the possibility of vandalism. So perhaps the answer is that there should be a roving commission to survey material and, when it finds articles that are sound, it should lock them. If a future editor believes any of the locked articles to require revision, let that be argued before editorial access is allowed. In this way, there is a slow accretion of core material that can justify the label of encyclopedia. Peripheral and evanescent material can be allowed to come and go as fashions change, with or without warning notices. - David91 18:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
But, on two occasions, when I attempted to change pages (in my opinion for the better) I was met with hostility and abuse. I rapidly withdrew. Those pages remain unacceptable (in my opinion). So, please, let us not assume that placing warning messages as headers will resolve inherent behavioural and content problems. - David91 07:11, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I am not touting for a campaign of "Be nice to the old guy." Everywhere, I see reports of edit wars, sometimes over really meaningful issues such as what to call English counties or disputes over puncutation which get blown out of proportion by those with a non-consensual approach to life. "Looking into my editing history" is not going to add significantly to a pattern of behaviour that is well-documented and clearly inhibiting the growth of encyclopedic standards. The reason why I have not become involved in comparable disputes is that, at the first sign of abuse, I walk away. A plague on the causes of all those who will not iterate through reasonable debate towards some generally accepted point of view. - David91 05:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Wikipedia should include some type of disclaimer on every article page. I really like Wikipedia and try to contribute when I can. However, as a person involved in research, I would not advocate using Wikipedia per se as a reference; but, I would certainly recommend starting with Wikipedia in performing research. Wikipedia is a wonderful resource with many advantages over traditional reference works. Wikipedia is also very up-front about how it is created and its limitations. Unfortunately, most people will not realize the difference between Wikipedia and a traditional encyclopedia. Of course, no matter what you do, there will always be a few people who don't read the disclaimer. That said, I think it would be good to include a disclaimer anyway so that the majority of readers will get the idea. -- Wyatts 18:19, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Besides Wikipedia having an (existing) overall disclaimer, each contributer (including me) should have a disclaimer on her contribution to an article, and each article should have a disclaimer acknowledging where information may have other interpretations (e.g., scientific principles, evaluations of an artist's work quality and "themes", etc.). My son reads Wikipedia a LOT to study science and math and this led me to get an account. Fortunately he knows you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Fortunately many of the articles list references so that information can be checked. I have discovered inaccuracies (e.g., ranking of largest ports in the world out of date). To be rigorous you have to look stuff up and compare, which process Wikipedia helps. But Wikipedia certainly is not a definitive authority on any of its articles. Nor is any other encyclopedia or online references.
So it's caveat lector!
Sitearm 03:37, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
No encyclopedia is perfectly accurate, of course. I am not suggesting that Wikipedia needs a disclaimer because it is somehow not as good as other encyclopedias. (I believe Wikipedia is superior is many ways.) Instead, I am suggesting that Wikipedia needs a disclaimer because it is different from traditional encyclopedias. I think the disclaimer should inform people of the difference, not be an apology for any inaccuracies (since all encyclopedias have inaccuracies.) Articles published in traditional encyclopedias represent the "official" output of the organization, and have gone through some kind of formal review for accuracy and style. This does not guarantee perfection, but readers know that the publisher has made some attempt to utilize knowledgeable experts, carefully reviews any changes/updates, and stands behind its work. People quickly learn which publishers do this well (or not) and hence establish the reputation of the publisher. People can then confidently reference such traditional encyclopedias in their research. Wikipedia is different. Articles can be written by anyone, editors are not selected according to their credentials, articles can be changed often, and there is no formal approval process. On the other hand, Wikipedia relies on collaboration to improve the accuracy of articles (which is generally very good), content is more relevant and up-to-date, there is tremendous breadth, and it's free. I might not reference Wikipedia directly, but I would certainly start there for research. So, with all that said, if there is ever going to be a disclaimer, then we need to start throwing out suggestions. It should be fairly short and emphasize the difference in Wikipedia, not an out for any inaccuracies. Here is something to chew on:
I'm sure this could be improved (in a collaborative manner.) -- Wyatts 22:10, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, I found the
Wikipedia:General disclaimer, and it is blunt and comprehensive. No doubt here: "Wikipedia Makes No Guarantee Of Validity." So that leaves saying something about why Wikipedia is special and why it's a good encyclopedia to use (
Wikipedia:Why Wikipedia is so great) or saying nothing at all and letting the work and its use speak for themselves. I'm sure this disclaimer issue will come up in the near future, say, when someone blames something on an article read here. The short disclaimer suggested by Wyatts is a good size to put on every page (is that what we're aiming for?), but its gist is covered in the existing full-size disclaimer page. How about "caveat lector et scriptor" ("let the reader and writer be cautious") to keep it short and add class? Hey, it might just work.
Sitearm 06:23, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Mamawrites, I am OK with not using the Latin. It's a play on "caveat emptor" ("buyer beware"), but yes, it would just confuse things. Main point is, I agree with Wyatts to put something at the top of every page in addition to the tiny disclaimer link at the bottom. I feel uneasy at the statement about "not subject to formal approval..." and it's covered in the full page anyway. How about:
Sitearm 06:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC) P.S. How do we submit what we agree on as a proposal to be added?
Although I wanted something about "not subject to formal approval", I must admit that it sounds too negative, and I could not find a good way to word it. I agree with the version from Mamawrites:
It has the following points in its favor: It is short enough to include at the top of every page; it emphasizes the difference between Wikipedia and traditional encyclopedias; it is a positive statement; it provides enough information to inform the user that the articles are not formally vetted; and it puts the link to the full disclaimer in a prominent place where people are more likely to check it out. As to how to submit, I looked at Wikipedia:How to create policy. The more I look, the more it seems that this discussion should be transferred to Wikipedia: Village Pump (proposals). A policy is more like what to do in certain situations. This is a specific proposal to modify the general article template (but not a bug). But, even if it is moved, I'm not sure how to get it out of the proposal stage to be implemented. Perhaps we can set up a separate page like Wikipedia:Disclaimer proposal? I think we will need to recruit one or more administrators to eventually set up a vote and then get it to those who can actually implement the change. -- Wyatts 14:25, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I made a new proposal page at Proposed update of MediaWiki:Tagline and posted notices here and here. -- Sitearm | Talk 04:29, 2005 August 5 (UTC)
That looks like a good way to go. I'll start posting discussion at Proposed update of MediaWiki:Tagline. -- Wyatts 17:01, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The primary proposal has been updated. Contributer's comments and support still requested here. -- Sitearm | Talk 19:48, 2005 August 11 (UTC)
I think there are issues behind the tagline discussion that need some closer examination. My comments are rather lengthy, and so I have deviated from the usual procedure and created a separate subsection for them. I hope no one is too terribly offended. (By the way, there seem to be many discussions on this topic. If there is a better place for my comments, could someone please point me to it. — Nowhither)
I note that people are speaking in terms of a "disclaimer". Disclaimers are legal devices. The idea is to cut through the PR nonsense and (using legal nonsense) indicate precisely what is being claimed. Usually contractual issues and protection from lawsuits are the relevant concerns. I think this is an issue for Wikipedia, and it needs some serious thought; however, this does not seem to be what is driving this discussion.
What is driving the discussion is the problem that people come to Wikipedia, read it, use it, maybe even edit it, without a clear understanding of what it is. Some of them end up using information from Wikipedia in inappropriate ways due to these misunderstandings. Others, when they discover what Wikipedia really is, feel deceived and angry. Others get angry due to their misunderstandings. Quite rightly, we want to address these issues.
So, first, I want to point out that we cannot be responsible for other people's actions. Many, many people are in the habit of grabbing some source, getting info from it, and leaving, without considering reliability or other important issues. Many of these people use Wikipedia. What can we do about them? Nothing. If someone does not want to give any thought to the source of his information, then all the explanatory text in the world will not help. Let us remember then, that some things are the reader's responsibility, not ours.
Second, Wikipedia is a new thing; the world has never seen its like before. We call it an "encyclopedia", and it is, I suppose. However, it is clear that many ideas that people associate with encyclopedias are not applicable to Wikipedia. But there is no word or phrase in any language that will concisely and thoroughly indicate to newcomers what Wikipedia is. So: how can we quickly give people a clear understanding of all the principles and process behind Wikipedia? We cannot. It is a waste of time to try.
Third, there is an annoying tradition, especially in the U.S., that every time there is an issue with some product, we tack on a notice in its documentation somewhere. I bought a soldering torch. It came with pages & pages of lists of things I should be careful of. And I read and thoughtfully considered every one, of course, wouldn't you? </sarcasm> This approach was invented by corporate lawyers as a way of stopping lawsuits. It is not about communicating information, and so it is not going to help us here. In short, don't think that tacking on gobs of little notices is going to eliminate everyone's misunderstandings about Wikipedia.
Fourth, there are people who are interested in checking their sources. Many of them do not understand Wikipedia, and could make better use of it if they did. Taglines & such are not going to help them. What might help is a short essay about who writes Wikipedia, and what approval processes an article needs to go through to be published in it. (Yes, I know, the short answer is "none", but we should still talk about the approval process, since that is what people want to know about.) The hard part is helping people find this explanation.
And that is what I think it is important to address. So, how about an actual concrete proposal: Instead of a tagline intended to communicate what Wikipedia is all about, how about a tagline that tells people where they can find such information, aimed at newcomers. Here's an off-the-top-of-my-head line: "Who writes Wikipedia?" Then make this a link to that short essay I mentioned earlier (or to a list of bullet points, or whatever). I'm sure someone can improve on this idea. Please do.
As I said earlier, I think disclaimers should be discussed as well, but that is a separate issue. Disclaimers are about contracts and lawsuits, not introducing newcomers and explaining things.
— Nowhither 07:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm sure this subject is familiar to old hands, but I've just finished wasting time writing (because it was requested on the list of math articles needed) an article titled "Transcendental Numbers" (title produced by clicking on the math request list) only to find that there is already a perfectly good article titled "Transcendental numbers". The only difference is the lower case "n". Now, I realize that it would only take four searches to find all possible cases in two word article titles, but it would take eight searches in the case of three word article titles and sixteen searches for four word article titles. Wouldn't it be simpler to have a non-case-sensitive search engine?
While I'm on the subject, I suspect that hundreds of the requested articles already exist, but with lower case first letters rather than upper case first letters.
Rick Norwood
I find the search box inconsistent when looking for articles I know are in the name space. I also see (and have added myself) redirect pages for proper names ( John Lennon and John lennon) etc. to fix it. I am curious where to learn how often the index is updated, and what is the difference between the "Go" and "Search" buttons under the search box? ?:| -- Sitearm | Talk 22:42, 2005 August 20 (UTC)
I appreciate your help, but let me give you a specific example that seems to contradict your advice. Under Missing Articles -> Science -> Maths7 there is a request for an article on Triangular Number. Clicking on that link results in the claim that there is no article with that title. Typing "Triangular number" into the search box and clicking SEARCH, which is suposed to be case insensitive, again results in the information that there is no such article. But typing in "Triangular Number" (capital N) redirects me to the article "Triangular numbers" (lower case n). Very strange. Even stranger, I just tried exactly the same searches, but from this page, and both searches redirected me to the proper page. Maybe I made an error, but I'm afraid there may be a deep problem within the search engine. In any case, the large number of articles that ignore the convention that article titles should be in the singular exacerbates the problem.
The problem is reproducable. Here is what I typed in the search box, after following the links I listed above: Triangular number (cut and pasted to avoid the possibility of a typo). I hit search -- no results. Just now, I cut and pasted the exact same phrase in the search box to the left of this page, hit search, and found the correct article. In other words, the search box works differently in different locations.
There is still the problem of the thousands of entries in the maths list, many or most of which are already articles with minor variations of case and number. Is there any way to work through them more efficient than repeated searches on variants, one by one?
Rick Norwood
An offsite index is available, but I'm not sure how often it's updated. Joyous (talk) 17:13, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Ooops. I inadvertantly posted with no headline, which caused Wikipedia to append my "Genealogy and Wikipedia" post on this post. Inadvertant addition removed by -- Billf 03:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Recently I've run across a number of articles in which someone has laid out a long series of section headings, and then put no text in the sections. This strikes me as poor practice, but I can't find anything relevant in existing policy/guidelines. Assuming there is no guideline on this at present, I think we need one saying that articles should be "complete" in some sense. Thoughts? — Nowhither 11:40, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Feel free to remove headings if they contain little or no content. (See my rant on the subject.) Gdr 15:22:57, 2005-08-14 (UTC)
There are photographs of private individuals uploaded with no mention that the subjects approve of, do not object to, or even know about the public dissemination of their images. Surprisingly the only discussion I could find on the matter is from almost two years ago: Wikipedia_talk:Image_use_policy#Privacy_Rights,_Publicity_Rights. If I take a picture of a friend, doesn't she have a reasonable expectation I will respect her privacy and not post it to a widely distributed Internet encyclopedia? Not fully knowing the law, I don't see it as much a legal issue as one of basic respect. A guideline, at least urging caution about uploading photographs of non-public figures, should be issued. - choster 03:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)