This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
< Older discussions · Archives: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z, AA, AB, AC, AD, AE, AF, AG, AH, AI, AJ, AK, AL, AM, AN, AO, AP, AQ, AR, AS, AT, AU, AV, AW, AX, AY, AZ, BA, BB, BC, BD, BE, BF, BG, BH, BI, BJ, BK, BL, BM, BN, BO · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191
I have seen a quote someplace where Jimbo wrote, or said in a speech, that the name of the NPOV policy is misleading because it is not really neutral, but balanced in accordance with the prominence of the views. Where can I find this quote?-- Filll ( talk) 02:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo is an objectivist. Most Wikipedia users are wishy-washy collectivists, relativists, and subjectivists. See Sophism and anti-intellectualism. He established the NPOV policy, not as a false compromise or appeal to the middle, but because most people are not Objectivists or particularly rational, so arguing arguing "objective truth" would be a nightmare. Instead, people are supposed to argue over "objective verifiability." The objective part, however, has been wiped out of Wikipedia by the collectivists, hence the reason things like this and User:Shii/Hoaxes happen and The Community ™ doesn't do anything to stop it.
Frankly, I would like to know who this user, The Community ™, is and why they have not been blocked for harming Wikipedia.
The best way to edit Wikipedia is to glance across the policy pages, then think critically about what you're doing. If WP:NPOV is unclear, irrational, or downright harmful for Wikipedia, because Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, it should be ignored even if The Community ™ says otherwise. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 03:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Following the implicit suggestion I found in User:Zenwhat's comment, I have created a sock puppet, User:The Community. It is now possible to block The Community, should The Community edit contrary to policy, though this is highly unlikely (see the User and Talk pages for why it's unlikely; indeed, in the immediate situation, The Community won't be editing outside of the User and Talk page at all unless authorized by the actual community, or, more accurately, by those participating, and The Community (currently me logged in as such) won't make contentious edits even on those pages, except as the servant of those participating, as would any legitimate temporary chair of a democratic meeting. Given that the process doesn't exist yet to fairly represent the whole community through those participating, I wouldn't expect any outside edits in the near future. But you never can tell. How long does it take for a crystal to grow? Depends on conditions. Some might prevent any crystal formation at all. Some might want to watch User talk:The Community but a special subpage might be created for authorized announcements, and watching that page would involve much less traffic. Maybe none! (By the way, if someone objects to the name of this user, there is standard process for dealing with that; however, the most *efficient* way to object might be to simply request that some different name be used. I'd not be opposed. However, if you are an administrator, and you see *any* uncivil, contentious, disruptive, or otherwise improper post by The Community, that user is acting contrary to his own guidelines, or the account has been compromised. Please block it immediately. It will do no harm, and can always be undone if there has been some mistake.-- Abd ( talk) 17:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Our category system is a mess. What my thoughts for improving it are fairly simple. Apply all categories that apply. If its about a german doctor, the article should be three categories, Germans, Doctors, and German Doctors. Where German Doctors is a subcat of Doctors. it would make working with categories simpler and help avoid categorie loops. (it would also need a bugzilla request so that all sub cats appear on the first listings of a category page.) thoughts? βcommand 16:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to provoke some discussion on the mathematical articles in Wikipedia. If this is old ground, perhaps someone can direct me to earlier discussion on the topic or to relevant policies.
In my view, many of the mathematical articles are close to useless. They have been written by expert mathematicians, who express themselves precisely, very likely expertly and accurately, and with formality. This puts the articles out of reach of people who are not themselves strong mathematicians.
It is for this reason I think that I chose the word useless carefully. The people who know enough maths to understand the articles probably know the content; and for those who don't know, the article sheds no light.
I'd like to see all articles on mathematical topics start with narrative, using words and not algebra, explaining in terms that a 16 year old could understand, what the function seeks to perform, and why it matters. It should not plunge straight into any symbolic maths.
As an example of an article that I consider bad, see the one on Fourier Transforms.
This issue is not confined to maths, of course. Some of the medical articles are highly technical too. But compare the Fourier Transform article to the one on Cancer, which anyone can read without needing a medical dictionary at their side.
I suppose the root of this issue is what an encyclopedia is for. Is it to hold the latest, definitive knowledge on a topic, to the most expert level, or to provide a reference for ordinary educated people about unfamiliar subjects? I think that the first is impossible, since a multi-topic encyclopedia can never compete on detail with a highly specialised journal dedicated to a particular field. It's certainly for the second that I come to Wikipedia.
David Colver ( talk) 15:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Telling somebody, "Go fix it," is extremely insulting. Also:
Your dichotomy between 'the latest, definitive knowledge on a topic' and 'a reference for ordinary educated people' is also false.
You can't be serious? ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 17:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Can I ask Algebraist why he comes to Wikipedia for information in the subject in which he is a graduate student? It seems to me that experts doing that provides both the supply and the demand for the content of which I complain.
I don't think that material of that level belongs in an encyclopedia; and if it does, it certainly doesn't belong there at the expense of accessibility to less expert users. This, I recognise, is just my opinion which is clearly, on the evidence of the maths articles I've looked at, not widely shared, which is why I raise the topic as one of policy.
But I'd like to ask, as a genuine, unloaded question, not intended as a criticism: Why come here rather than to a text book, a journal, or a subject-specific web site for a topic on which one is already quite expert? —Preceding unsigned comment added by David Colver ( talk • contribs) 21:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Because they are interested in gaining knowledge. Does this not hold true for the average Wikipedian? ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that this is not an issue exclusive to wikipedia - mathematical text books and lecture courses vary in the style by which they present their material, and similar is true of all academic fields. I am a firm believer that it is possible to present most works simply so that most people can understand the rough idea, know where to go to learn the precursor knowledge, and return and find the detailed coverage similarly instantly accessible. However there are a large number of people who would argue otherwise, for a number of reasons. LinaMishima ( talk) 00:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
It is very old ground. I suggest David Colver might find Royal Road#Cultural references to the Royal Road enlightening. — David Eppstein ( talk) 01:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I like the Royal Road anecdote.
That said, we are sort of evolving our math articles towards a less mathematical, more historical style (see, for instance, calculus.)
I also know of some people who got their crash course in the finite element method from Wikipedia, even though that's not a history-lite article.
Loisel ( talk) 04:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
An implication of what I wrote above is that no article should contain content inaccessible to a 16 year old. I don't seriously believe that. Wikipedia would be much less interesting and useful if it limited itself in that way. But what I do believe is that Wikipedia's duty to serve, to the maximum extent possible, people with the knowledge of a topic of an educated, bright and inquisitive 16 year old is of higher priority than its duty to serve graduate students or professors in a subject, since the latter group will already be surrounded by sources they can turn to to access the best and greatest thinking on the subject. At the moment, the serving of the near-experts is being achieved at the expense of access by the lay reader.
A lot of what I'd like can perhaps be achieved by emphasising the history of a discipline. How did the pioneers gain the insights that led to the current knowledge? Often they were starting with knowledge entirely accessible to my hypothetical 16 year old (Though perhaps not, I accept, in Fourier analysis.) For this reason I'm delighted to read of "a less mathematical, more historical style" in articles such as the one on Calculus, which I've looked at and admire. David Colver ( talk) 10:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Zenwhat: Because they are interested in gaining knowledge. Does this not hold true for the average Wikipedian?
x42bn6: Not necessarily
ROFL. To demonstrate my point, x42bn6, see this venn diagram I made. [1]
Your assertion is a red herring for strictly symbolic logical reasons: I asserted, "All people who read wikipedia want to learn things." You asserted, "Not necessarily. Some (me specifically) want to learn things from Wikipedia and from outside sources."
As for the other comments:
With that said, among all the comments above, Shirahadasha's seem most reasonable. A compromise is required, but such a compromise should be rational. When an encyclopedia is developed, it gears itself towards a particular audience and addresses that audience in an appropriate way, in a means it can understand. Wikipedia should not be regarded as a bunch of encyclopedias, because Wikipedia should be geared towards a single audience: the general public. To assert that some articles should be technical while others should not be is an irrational standard. Wikipedia's credibility and authority is judged by Wikipedia, in full, since all content is generated in the same way by the same community. As such, there should be a single standard and there currently is. Wikipedia has the appearance of being many encyclopedias overlapping (not to mention a source for fan analysis, unencyclopedic directory lists, a map of the world, a soapbox for religion, and a place for gossip, rumors, and internet memes) because lack of the "rule of policy" has caused the wiki-process to disintegrate into chaos. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
In my personal opinion it would be damaging to Wikipedia to simplify existing content just to make it more readable for younger people, people with no knowledge in a particular field, etc. However there are solutions to the current problem of over-complex articles and that is to create/expand Simple English Wikipedia (Mathematics) or perhaps start a new introduction article in a similar vain to Introduction to evolution, hope that helps. -- Sin Harvest ( talk) 12:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC) Hmm just wanted to point out Wikipedia:Make technical articles accessible as well.-- Sin Harvest ( talk) 13:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the "ideal" on Wikipedia technical articles - whether on mathematics, history or otherwise - is an introduction simple to the layman that gets more complex and useful for the more dedicated mathematician as you read further down the page until you get to the most complex and technically difficult topics and notation at the bottom making it useful for everyone - I honestly think there's little disagreement by anyone about that. Of course, this is an ideal, but based on the wiki model and people's interests, this leaves many articles in a mixed state and those who are more technical and have an interest in mathematics are more likely to edit and are more likely to make notation-filled contributions. WP:SOFIXIT may seem impolite, but really it's based on the best of intentions - the articles aren't complex because of some intention to make it so, but rather because nobody has cared enough to contribute to those articles to make them more accessible. And, of course, sometimes there has to be a compromise as some topics can't be simplified in a way simple enough for the layman or pages that are split into subarticles so it isn't really possible, but there really isn't a conspiracy to make articles dazzlingly complex, it's just the way it goes. - Halo ( talk) 22:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Does the writ of ComCom ( [2]) run in Wikipedia article space? Or indeed in any WP content? 'Cos it sure looks like they think it does:
See:
According to the resolution that established ComCom, and it's page on Meta, there is nothing that says it should be using the projects for communications, and indeed I believe the idea would be widely opposed by the community.
Comments?
Rich Farmbrough, 21:27 5 February 2008 (GMT).
I don't see what the problem is here. If they were trying to whitewash the page, they could've done a lot better than that.
The idea that "Wikipedia is secretly a tax-shelter for Wikia," is a conspiracy theory. It's not as bad as "Google is run by the CIA," but still, it's a conspiracy theory. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a misunderstanding of the difference between the Wikipedia: namespace and the main editorial namespace. Would this sort of action on Wikipedia be acceptable for an admin who happened to work for any other organization? I'm also interested by a mention of the mythical "Internal", which I presume to be either the Internal wiki or the private mailing list Internal-l. Since when was a private post on either of these considered a suitable replacement for references? GreenReaper ( talk) 19:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that every song listed on Wikipedia has just about everything you could want to know about the song, except for the lyrics of the song itself. Is there a policy against this? (presumably it has something to do with copyright?) could someone enlighten me? Sirmadness ( talk) 18:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I propose that any vandalism committed anonymously, should result in the banning of the IP address that was used to commit vandalism. I know it's not a perfect solution (IP addresses can be changed; another computer can be used), but it would cut down of the amount of vandalism committed. -- SMP0328. ( talk) 01:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Instead, it would nice if we could have nice long blocks of IP's for actual clear vandalism (do we remember what that is, anymore?), not political-opinion crimes or defiance. S B H arris 02:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Man! You guys type too fast, I've had 3 edit conflicts already.-- Sunny910910 ( talk| Contributions) 02:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I say people should have to register period. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 08:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
< Older discussions · Archives: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z, AA, AB, AC, AD, AE, AF, AG, AH, AI, AJ, AK, AL, AM, AN, AO, AP, AQ, AR, AS, AT, AU, AV, AW, AX, AY, AZ, BA, BB, BC, BD, BE, BF, BG, BH, BI, BJ, BK, BL, BM, BN, BO · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191
I have seen a quote someplace where Jimbo wrote, or said in a speech, that the name of the NPOV policy is misleading because it is not really neutral, but balanced in accordance with the prominence of the views. Where can I find this quote?-- Filll ( talk) 02:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo is an objectivist. Most Wikipedia users are wishy-washy collectivists, relativists, and subjectivists. See Sophism and anti-intellectualism. He established the NPOV policy, not as a false compromise or appeal to the middle, but because most people are not Objectivists or particularly rational, so arguing arguing "objective truth" would be a nightmare. Instead, people are supposed to argue over "objective verifiability." The objective part, however, has been wiped out of Wikipedia by the collectivists, hence the reason things like this and User:Shii/Hoaxes happen and The Community ™ doesn't do anything to stop it.
Frankly, I would like to know who this user, The Community ™, is and why they have not been blocked for harming Wikipedia.
The best way to edit Wikipedia is to glance across the policy pages, then think critically about what you're doing. If WP:NPOV is unclear, irrational, or downright harmful for Wikipedia, because Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, it should be ignored even if The Community ™ says otherwise. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 03:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Following the implicit suggestion I found in User:Zenwhat's comment, I have created a sock puppet, User:The Community. It is now possible to block The Community, should The Community edit contrary to policy, though this is highly unlikely (see the User and Talk pages for why it's unlikely; indeed, in the immediate situation, The Community won't be editing outside of the User and Talk page at all unless authorized by the actual community, or, more accurately, by those participating, and The Community (currently me logged in as such) won't make contentious edits even on those pages, except as the servant of those participating, as would any legitimate temporary chair of a democratic meeting. Given that the process doesn't exist yet to fairly represent the whole community through those participating, I wouldn't expect any outside edits in the near future. But you never can tell. How long does it take for a crystal to grow? Depends on conditions. Some might prevent any crystal formation at all. Some might want to watch User talk:The Community but a special subpage might be created for authorized announcements, and watching that page would involve much less traffic. Maybe none! (By the way, if someone objects to the name of this user, there is standard process for dealing with that; however, the most *efficient* way to object might be to simply request that some different name be used. I'd not be opposed. However, if you are an administrator, and you see *any* uncivil, contentious, disruptive, or otherwise improper post by The Community, that user is acting contrary to his own guidelines, or the account has been compromised. Please block it immediately. It will do no harm, and can always be undone if there has been some mistake.-- Abd ( talk) 17:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Our category system is a mess. What my thoughts for improving it are fairly simple. Apply all categories that apply. If its about a german doctor, the article should be three categories, Germans, Doctors, and German Doctors. Where German Doctors is a subcat of Doctors. it would make working with categories simpler and help avoid categorie loops. (it would also need a bugzilla request so that all sub cats appear on the first listings of a category page.) thoughts? βcommand 16:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to provoke some discussion on the mathematical articles in Wikipedia. If this is old ground, perhaps someone can direct me to earlier discussion on the topic or to relevant policies.
In my view, many of the mathematical articles are close to useless. They have been written by expert mathematicians, who express themselves precisely, very likely expertly and accurately, and with formality. This puts the articles out of reach of people who are not themselves strong mathematicians.
It is for this reason I think that I chose the word useless carefully. The people who know enough maths to understand the articles probably know the content; and for those who don't know, the article sheds no light.
I'd like to see all articles on mathematical topics start with narrative, using words and not algebra, explaining in terms that a 16 year old could understand, what the function seeks to perform, and why it matters. It should not plunge straight into any symbolic maths.
As an example of an article that I consider bad, see the one on Fourier Transforms.
This issue is not confined to maths, of course. Some of the medical articles are highly technical too. But compare the Fourier Transform article to the one on Cancer, which anyone can read without needing a medical dictionary at their side.
I suppose the root of this issue is what an encyclopedia is for. Is it to hold the latest, definitive knowledge on a topic, to the most expert level, or to provide a reference for ordinary educated people about unfamiliar subjects? I think that the first is impossible, since a multi-topic encyclopedia can never compete on detail with a highly specialised journal dedicated to a particular field. It's certainly for the second that I come to Wikipedia.
David Colver ( talk) 15:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Telling somebody, "Go fix it," is extremely insulting. Also:
Your dichotomy between 'the latest, definitive knowledge on a topic' and 'a reference for ordinary educated people' is also false.
You can't be serious? ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 17:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Can I ask Algebraist why he comes to Wikipedia for information in the subject in which he is a graduate student? It seems to me that experts doing that provides both the supply and the demand for the content of which I complain.
I don't think that material of that level belongs in an encyclopedia; and if it does, it certainly doesn't belong there at the expense of accessibility to less expert users. This, I recognise, is just my opinion which is clearly, on the evidence of the maths articles I've looked at, not widely shared, which is why I raise the topic as one of policy.
But I'd like to ask, as a genuine, unloaded question, not intended as a criticism: Why come here rather than to a text book, a journal, or a subject-specific web site for a topic on which one is already quite expert? —Preceding unsigned comment added by David Colver ( talk • contribs) 21:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Because they are interested in gaining knowledge. Does this not hold true for the average Wikipedian? ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that this is not an issue exclusive to wikipedia - mathematical text books and lecture courses vary in the style by which they present their material, and similar is true of all academic fields. I am a firm believer that it is possible to present most works simply so that most people can understand the rough idea, know where to go to learn the precursor knowledge, and return and find the detailed coverage similarly instantly accessible. However there are a large number of people who would argue otherwise, for a number of reasons. LinaMishima ( talk) 00:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
It is very old ground. I suggest David Colver might find Royal Road#Cultural references to the Royal Road enlightening. — David Eppstein ( talk) 01:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I like the Royal Road anecdote.
That said, we are sort of evolving our math articles towards a less mathematical, more historical style (see, for instance, calculus.)
I also know of some people who got their crash course in the finite element method from Wikipedia, even though that's not a history-lite article.
Loisel ( talk) 04:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
An implication of what I wrote above is that no article should contain content inaccessible to a 16 year old. I don't seriously believe that. Wikipedia would be much less interesting and useful if it limited itself in that way. But what I do believe is that Wikipedia's duty to serve, to the maximum extent possible, people with the knowledge of a topic of an educated, bright and inquisitive 16 year old is of higher priority than its duty to serve graduate students or professors in a subject, since the latter group will already be surrounded by sources they can turn to to access the best and greatest thinking on the subject. At the moment, the serving of the near-experts is being achieved at the expense of access by the lay reader.
A lot of what I'd like can perhaps be achieved by emphasising the history of a discipline. How did the pioneers gain the insights that led to the current knowledge? Often they were starting with knowledge entirely accessible to my hypothetical 16 year old (Though perhaps not, I accept, in Fourier analysis.) For this reason I'm delighted to read of "a less mathematical, more historical style" in articles such as the one on Calculus, which I've looked at and admire. David Colver ( talk) 10:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Zenwhat: Because they are interested in gaining knowledge. Does this not hold true for the average Wikipedian?
x42bn6: Not necessarily
ROFL. To demonstrate my point, x42bn6, see this venn diagram I made. [1]
Your assertion is a red herring for strictly symbolic logical reasons: I asserted, "All people who read wikipedia want to learn things." You asserted, "Not necessarily. Some (me specifically) want to learn things from Wikipedia and from outside sources."
As for the other comments:
With that said, among all the comments above, Shirahadasha's seem most reasonable. A compromise is required, but such a compromise should be rational. When an encyclopedia is developed, it gears itself towards a particular audience and addresses that audience in an appropriate way, in a means it can understand. Wikipedia should not be regarded as a bunch of encyclopedias, because Wikipedia should be geared towards a single audience: the general public. To assert that some articles should be technical while others should not be is an irrational standard. Wikipedia's credibility and authority is judged by Wikipedia, in full, since all content is generated in the same way by the same community. As such, there should be a single standard and there currently is. Wikipedia has the appearance of being many encyclopedias overlapping (not to mention a source for fan analysis, unencyclopedic directory lists, a map of the world, a soapbox for religion, and a place for gossip, rumors, and internet memes) because lack of the "rule of policy" has caused the wiki-process to disintegrate into chaos. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
In my personal opinion it would be damaging to Wikipedia to simplify existing content just to make it more readable for younger people, people with no knowledge in a particular field, etc. However there are solutions to the current problem of over-complex articles and that is to create/expand Simple English Wikipedia (Mathematics) or perhaps start a new introduction article in a similar vain to Introduction to evolution, hope that helps. -- Sin Harvest ( talk) 12:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC) Hmm just wanted to point out Wikipedia:Make technical articles accessible as well.-- Sin Harvest ( talk) 13:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the "ideal" on Wikipedia technical articles - whether on mathematics, history or otherwise - is an introduction simple to the layman that gets more complex and useful for the more dedicated mathematician as you read further down the page until you get to the most complex and technically difficult topics and notation at the bottom making it useful for everyone - I honestly think there's little disagreement by anyone about that. Of course, this is an ideal, but based on the wiki model and people's interests, this leaves many articles in a mixed state and those who are more technical and have an interest in mathematics are more likely to edit and are more likely to make notation-filled contributions. WP:SOFIXIT may seem impolite, but really it's based on the best of intentions - the articles aren't complex because of some intention to make it so, but rather because nobody has cared enough to contribute to those articles to make them more accessible. And, of course, sometimes there has to be a compromise as some topics can't be simplified in a way simple enough for the layman or pages that are split into subarticles so it isn't really possible, but there really isn't a conspiracy to make articles dazzlingly complex, it's just the way it goes. - Halo ( talk) 22:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Does the writ of ComCom ( [2]) run in Wikipedia article space? Or indeed in any WP content? 'Cos it sure looks like they think it does:
See:
According to the resolution that established ComCom, and it's page on Meta, there is nothing that says it should be using the projects for communications, and indeed I believe the idea would be widely opposed by the community.
Comments?
Rich Farmbrough, 21:27 5 February 2008 (GMT).
I don't see what the problem is here. If they were trying to whitewash the page, they could've done a lot better than that.
The idea that "Wikipedia is secretly a tax-shelter for Wikia," is a conspiracy theory. It's not as bad as "Google is run by the CIA," but still, it's a conspiracy theory. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a misunderstanding of the difference between the Wikipedia: namespace and the main editorial namespace. Would this sort of action on Wikipedia be acceptable for an admin who happened to work for any other organization? I'm also interested by a mention of the mythical "Internal", which I presume to be either the Internal wiki or the private mailing list Internal-l. Since when was a private post on either of these considered a suitable replacement for references? GreenReaper ( talk) 19:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that every song listed on Wikipedia has just about everything you could want to know about the song, except for the lyrics of the song itself. Is there a policy against this? (presumably it has something to do with copyright?) could someone enlighten me? Sirmadness ( talk) 18:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I propose that any vandalism committed anonymously, should result in the banning of the IP address that was used to commit vandalism. I know it's not a perfect solution (IP addresses can be changed; another computer can be used), but it would cut down of the amount of vandalism committed. -- SMP0328. ( talk) 01:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Instead, it would nice if we could have nice long blocks of IP's for actual clear vandalism (do we remember what that is, anymore?), not political-opinion crimes or defiance. S B H arris 02:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Man! You guys type too fast, I've had 3 edit conflicts already.-- Sunny910910 ( talk| Contributions) 02:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I say people should have to register period. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 08:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)