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In discussion of an article that I nominated for deletion [1], because of lack of notability, there has been some disagreement over what constitutes notability. Some editors claim that this [2], a series of newspaper mentions including the name of the group, constitutes notability. My own understanding is that per WP: Notability: Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail.... I understand that to mean that the mention of a name of a group in a few newspaper articles does not constitute notability, and a notable mention should include significant discussion of the group itself. Perhaps I have misunderstood the way this guideline is applied, and I would appreciate comments from other users to clarify the issue. Thanks. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 14:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Wow, Malcolm Schosha, you've picked a real tricky case as an example! I've just looked at European Jews for a Just Peace and done a little not very thorough Googling, and I understand your reservations about its notability. However it seems to be larger than e.g. the Monday Club, and although younger it seems to be stable and fairly well-organised. If a couple of decent news reports about incident / anniversary / issue X mentioned some action or statement by European Jews for a Just Peace, I'd accept that it's notable, even if the reports did not have much of a description. That's an example of my comment above that WP:N's address the subject directly in detail is excessive, since news reports might assume that readers know about European Jews for a Just Peace or can easily Google for it. If online versions of some reports linked to its site, I'd interpret that as indicating that the reporters have checked it out and regard it as a credible organisation, and then it would of course be notable. The other issue you raised was whether European Jews for a Just Peace is a WP:RS for a statement in Anti-Zionism. There I think it depends on the statment for which sources are being considered. If it's a flat statement that X is a fact or Y is the consensus, then I'd say "No". OTOH I can think of statements for which the organisation would be an adequate source, e.g. "European Jews for a Just Peace said that ..." or "Several Jewish organisations said that ..." or "Non-Israeli Jewish opinion is divided over ...". -- Philcha ( talk) 17:40, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Twice this week, I have called up a Wikipedia page without being logged on, to be greeted with "New message". I clicked the link to see a warning, "Do not vandalise or else". Obviously I had picked up the same IP address a vandal was using many months ago. It then occurred to me that this must be happening to lots of non-editors. People who only come to read Wikipedia being greeted with warnings!
Is there any point in placing vandal warnings on IP pages. Yes, if the vandalism is currently in process, but after a few hours, the message is more likely to be displayed to an innocent bystander. Should the IP talk pages be deleted after 24 hours? ++ MortimerCat ( talk) 20:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Somewhere, we need to warn editors not to link to "ap.google.com" for Associated Press articles. Those pages only have a lifetime of a month or so. The link left behind is useless; it's just a big encoded string that can't be referenced to another source for the same article. -- John Nagle ( talk) 21:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Berne Convention Article 10
(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their making is compatible with fair practice, and their extent does not exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries.
It rules not "can quote text, speech" but "can quote work" Work is not only text. Work also include "text, image, video, draw, voice, speech, song, etc"
In South Korea Copyright law,
image or media's fair use clause is not exist.
But, Korea, Berne Convention Article 10 is effected.
Berne Convention Article 10, People can quote from a work.
In korea, image fair use = image quotation.
In korea, vedio fair use = video quotation.
South Korean Copyright Act
Article 28(Quotations from Works Made Public) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work already being made public provided that they are within a reasonable limit for news reporting, criticism, education and research, etc. and compatible with fair practice.
It rules not "can quote text, speech" but "can quote work"
Work is not only text. Work also include "text, image, video, draw, voice, speech, song, etc"
So, in korea, "image fair use"? no. korean calls it as "image quotation".
So, in korea, "video fair use"? no. korean calls it as "video quotation".
So, korean can ask.
Wikiquote, why it is only for text quotaion? where for image, video?
Wikiquote, Of course, we can quote anything from copyrighted text. regardless of their licensing status.
Example:
it is all copyrighted work.
So, South Korean can ask as following:
In wikipedia, wikiquote, users don't discuss the original text's license. All user can quote from copyrigeted text, speech freely. Nobody don't discuss the original text's license. Nobody don't discuss to delete because of copyright infringement, not fair use, etc.
So, In wikipedia, wikiquote, Why users discuss the original image's license?
Why American discriminate between "text, speech"'s quotantion and "image, video"'s quotantion?
World standard copyright law, Berne Convention Article 10 rules that We can quote "the work", not only text, speech.
Why we can't quote copyrited image freely like text?
You are american? so you know only U.S. copyright act?
But, the world standard copyright law, Berne Convention exist.
In Berne Convention, you can find "fair use clause"? No. only exist "fair quote clause"
I want to quote image, viedo freely like text in wikipedia, other wikimedia projects worldwide.
"ALL CUONTRY HAVE Berne Convention"
Thanks :) -- WonRyong ( talk) 03:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a new notability proposal up at Wikipedia:Notability (fiction). Unlike past attempts, this one tries to start from the existing trends in inclusion and deletion on AfD, and go from there to guidelines. As such, it is unlikely to please any hard partisans on either the inclusionist or deletionist camps, but is similarly unlikely to actually offend anyone. But comments are very much welcome on the page - I'd like to try to get it to guideline status so that the deletion debates on this topic can be put behind us. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 14:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
The discussion of image sizes, especially lead image sizes, at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Forcing Lead image may affect thousands of artciles and editors, but only a handful of editors are currently involved in the discussion. Please make your views known at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Forcing Lead image. -- Philcha ( talk) 11:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Can an RFC be amended after it people have started voting? There is active comments section. However, the RFC itself has been modified by the addition (at 0852 on 24 November) of opposing comments highlighted in a big green box as part of the RFC text. What do people here think? See the big green box at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#RfC:_Three_proposals_for_change_to_MOSNUM. Regards. Lightmouse ( talk) 13:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#WP:BATTLE regarding the content and the meaning of WP:BATTLE and regarding possible additions to the current text of WP:BATTLE. I'd like to invite further input. Thanks, Nsk92 ( talk) 19:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
(With apologies if I am formatting this wrongly, this is the first time I have ever initiated a request for comment)
I have been intermittently contributing to Wikipedia to the best of my ability for several years now, and I used to enjoy it, but for the last several months I have found it increasingly frustrating, to the point that I am considering giving up on Wikipedia and mourning the loss of what used to be a useful and fun resource. Since essentially the only source of my frustration is one particular issue, I will venture to try and explain that issue here and invite comment and suggestions from the WP community at large.
In the past few months, a considerable proportion of the pages on my watchlist at least have been plagued with what I was originally tempted to refer to as raiding and nuking. However, since some people might regard this as insufficiently neutral to use as a convenient shorthand, I cast about for a more neutral term and came up with dismissive deletion to describe the process whereby one or more sections of an article (occasionally amounting to most of the content of an article) are removed without any replacement whatsoever and without any form of discussion on the relevant talk page. At best there may be a quasi-bot justification in the edit summary, typically appealing perfunctorily and without explanation to such Wikipedia policies as WP:NN, WP:TRIV, WP:REF, WP:NOR, WP:SYN (the list is not exhaustive). Depressingly often, addressing the implied criticism and restoring the removed information leads merely to renewed destruction of the information under the cover of another policy (equally perfunctorily and without elaboration). For a recent example see Talk:Never Say Never Again.
In my opinion, this kind of dismissive deletion at best does not make any positive contribution to Wikipedia (since the information is in effect simply destroyed without any replacement) and at worst differs from vandalism only in claiming to be founded on Wikipedia policies that more often than not were instituted for reasons that have nothing to do with the perceived violation. For example, hardly any organized bulleted listing of information is safe from being destroyed (removed without any replacement) based on the most perfunctory reference to WP:TRIV, in spite of the fact that the relevant policy specifically states that "This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all" (emphasis added) and "a selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information" (emphasis in original). Despite this recommendation, in most edits justified on the basis of this policy I have seen, the information is simply destroyed.
Similarly, statements that can be independently verified by anyone willing to watch a DVD or listen to a commentary track are routinely removed based on WP:REF if the source is not exhaustively referenced, but decried as original research and removed based on WP:NOR if it is clear that the information was obtained by, guess what, watching the source (Please do not say the example is too ridiculous for words, I saw it with my own eyes). However, having done some serious research of late into Wikipedia policies, I found that the original research requirement historically originated in the elaboration of the neutrality principle, specifically: "The original motivation for NOR was to prevent editors from introducing fringe views ... or from excluding verifiable views that, in the judgement of editors, were incorrect. It soon became clear that the policy should apply to any editor trying to introduce his or her own views into an article" (quoted from core policies history page, emphasis added). In other words, the NOR requirement originated specifically to prevent the exclusion of information, making it particularly ironic that its most pervasive and routine use now seems to be as an excuse to remove information without any replacement whatsoever :(
Whatever mistaken impressions some people might have, I am not gratuitously whining about someone "messing with my edits". In the example mentioned above, the original edits I went to bat for were not mine (nor indeed any one person's, as a perusal of the page history would make clear). I am not trying to defend mine or anyone else's private turf. I am trying to defend the usefulness of Wikipedia as a resource for otherwise hard to find information for myself and everyone else's sake. I love to use Wikipedia and I love to contribute what I can to the best of my ability (however much it may fall short of some people's standards of perfection). But if Wikipedia has any use at all, it is as an organized repository of linked information that would otherwise be hard to collect piecemeal (ever tried to wade through 400,000 Google hits?), and the increasing pervasiveness of dismissive deletion as I have described is disheartening and frustrating. Nothing is easier than "raiding" articles looking for easy prey for deletion. Researching and contributing useful information is much harder, especially if one's contributions are expected to run the gauntlet of a web of policy requirements that gives the aspiring raider a surfeit of sticks with which to beat the dog (is it "original research" to hear James Earl Jones say Kotlas in Dr. Strangelove? if not, maybe we can decry it as "unsourced"? or maybe it's not "notable" enough? or maybe we can just call it too trivial, Slim Pickens's bomb ride notwithstanding?).
I welcome any suggestions or proposals to deal with the (in my experience) increasingly pervasive problem of dismissive deletion (or even any reasoned explanation of why it is not considered a problem). With apologies for the original research ;) according to my personal anecdotal count of the pages I have been keeping tabs on for the last 6 weeks (in my watchlist and out), dismissive deletion (defined as the removal of information without replacement or justification except a perfunctory appeal to the unexamined letter of WP policy) is the third most frequent type of change observed to the average article, after bot-mediated edits and spelling corrections. I truly hope I am not the only one to feel that this is a problem :/ Nude Amazon ( talk) 13:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
People have repeatedly requested "better examples" of the kind of dismissive deletion that I believe to be problematic. So far I have been reluctant to do so for at least 3 reasons:
Having said that, let me attempt to dispel the genuine puzzlement of those who have asked for better examples. Casting about for an example suitably lacking in personal involvement (per my first concern aforementioned), let me try the following example in the Casino Royale (1967 film) article [ before and after]. Note that the deletion in question is typically dismissive, with no more than a perfunctory note in the edit summary. Note also that the dismissive deletion significantly destroys a link to the relevant director, effectively without replacement. Although the remover (again typically) does not so much as mention it, it might occur to well-meaning contributors that the likelihood of overlinking obviates this concern. However, this potential excuse does not apply to this example, since Casino Royale is precisely unusual in having involved five different directors! Finally, as to the token justification offered, the damning accusation of original research is amazingly (but alas, again typically) taken for granted. As it happens, the information can be checked in the simplest way by watching the film The Life and Death of Peter Sellers just mentioned higher in the same paragraph. What on Earth does not constitute original research by this reasoning? By the same logic, should every single reference whatsoever to any media not readily accessible online be ruled out of court? After all, if it's from a book or journal, someone would have to go to a library to look it up!!! What on Earth would satisfy such a draconic dismissive interpretation of the original research rule? Mere mention of the source is obviously not enough. DVD chapters? (for the record, Chapter 12 on the 2005 HBO DVD 92833A) Time stamps? (for the record, 1:24:15 to 1:25:24, same DVD edition) Yes, it took time and effort to look up these references (which are supposedly required, or the information is unceremoniously destroyed), which I guess is the excuse for calling it original research and destroying the information anyway. Catch-22, anyone?
I hope this example clarifies what I consider to be the problem of dismissive deletion, but given the all too tangible risk (per my second concern aforementioned) that people might get lost in the particularities of the example, I feel compelled to give another example differing from the previous one in being partly personal (throwing my first concern to the winds) and in (throwing my third concern to the winds with a due sense of apprehension and dread) having managed to stay out of the crosshairs of dismissive zappers so far (it also shares with the previous example the distinction of deliberately not being about trivia this time). You see, I did in a sense give a second example in my original post, but I chickened out by not explicitly calling it an example, because so far it has managed to survive safely in relative obscurity. A while ago I added a short paragraph to the Kotlas article based on the consideration that its direct relation to one of our culture's most iconic images [ [3]] would be sufficient to protect it from the usual dismissive notability attack. It is less of a poetic exaggeration than I would like that I have been apprehensive of dismissive deletion attacks from the reference-requiring direction (is the link to Dr. Strangelove enough?) and from the original-research-killer direction (if I provide the extra information that James Earl Jones says "Kotlas" at precisely 1:18:59 in Chapter 23 of the special edition DVD, ISBN 0-7678-6372-0, am I waving a red flag in front of any original research bulls?). I apologize if that sounds a little paranoid, but the pervasive prevalence of dismissive deletion is starting to make me feel that way about nearly every contribution I make. I am trying to make a constructive contribution, but I am getting a bit tired of negotiating a minefield of dismissively destructive contributions :( I hope that clarifies both the nature of the problem and the extent to which I have come to feel it is a problem Nude Amazon ( talk) 07:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I've seen the claim that "Policy overrides consensus" appearing around wikipedia. Even sprouted by administrators [4]. To me this seems a non tenable position. Our policy on policies explicitly states that both policies and guidelines should be approached with common sense, and indicates that IAR applies. Am I completely in the wrong here? Taemyr ( talk) 07:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
There are three proposals for a change to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). In summary, they are:
Voting is already underway. Feel free to add your vote at: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#RfC:_Three_proposals_for_change_to_MOSNUM Regards Lightmouse ( talk) 20:14, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Are articles on songs in languages other than English allowed? I noticed a couple of them like Dragostea din tei and Kuch Is Tarah. But if that is so, wouldn't it bulge the size of WP too much? Thanks. 125.21.165.158 ( talk) 11:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I've dobbed all the bureaucrats in in a new idea for a safety valve/point of redress/check and balance/good governance/etc. --> here
My idea would be this was a low volume committee which could be established by any five 'crats for the situations described. Has something like this been discussed before? Cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 04:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
It's mindblowing that a girl Tukker shows more interest in US historical monuments than the inhabitants of the US. Isn't there at least ONE person in the expletive deleted county who CARES? While every article about US-towns drones on about how much everybody earnes, and what nationalities their great-granddads had, it's virtually impossible to find out anything about the actual HISTORY of these villages. Somebody must have founded them, something must have happened, ANYTHING, PLEASE!!! 85.113.253.229 ( talk) 17:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps my understanding of this issue is not nuanced enough, but it appears that Kleuske is making a point about how boring and uninformative stub articles are? However I doubt that is it because most editors recognize that is what stubs are like ... you know, just a stub of an article. Yet if an Ohio history enthusiast or bridge expert were to cast their creative hand on the article, I am sure it could be radically improved. Now that is not to say that everyone would find an article on the topic interesting (much like how my eyes glaze over when I run across one of the many Warhammer 40,000 or American football articles). So again I am back to what is the point here? -- Kralizec! ( talk) 02:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Mr. Z-man 03:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have created a proposed policy for speedy hoax deletion on User:Darth Panda/Proposed Deletion for a Hoax. As this is my first time proposing a policy, I would be glad to hear any critiques or comments about my proposal. Please direct all comments to User talk:Darth Panda/Proposed Deletion for a Hoax. Thanks! DARTH PANDA duel 02:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I am concerned about the number of discussions regarding important WP policy matters, of which the vast majority of editors are unaware. Placing this template on ALL talkpages would be of enormous help in keeping users in touch with policy discussions and developments, enabling them to participate in debates of their choosing. Rotational ( talk) 21:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
On every discussion page? No thanks. On a greater number of Wikipedia related pages? sure. Reso lute 23:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not a software developer, but I know that placing the template on every user's page is not only technically possible, but simple. If the user doesn't want to be kept informed of the important issues of the day, then it is again a simple matter for him to turn it off (see the "Funds appeal banner" which can be turned off permanently by accessing 'preferences/gadgets'). I don't think the template should be rammed down anyone's throat, but it should rather be seen as an obvious means of keeping in touch with developments, and to be turned off at the user's convenience. This touches on the far greater issue of being informed about discussions on ALL matters, and not just policy developments - in other words a bulletin board where the user chooses his areas of interest and doesn't clutter his screen with notices that fall outside those areas. This is not a pipe dream - it is actually possible. ciao Rotational ( talk) 07:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
This is spilling into the next thread, so here's a {{clear}} -- Philcha ( talk) 17:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I support putting it on a wider variety of project talk pages, but putting this on every single talk page on the largest website in existence? No thankyou-- Patton 123 18:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Watchlist might be a nice place to put it. — Werdna • talk 07:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
A contributor to #Proposal_to_include_template_.7B.7Bcent.7D.7D_on_every__discussion_page estimates that there about 300 pages of guidelines and policies. At Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Guideline-by-guideline citation of sources an experienced editor wrote "I do not know the complete set of guidelines to which an article is subject." I suggest we list somewhere all the guidelines and policies and then see what we can do to prune them. It looks as if it's now easier to become an expert in an academic subject than to become an expert on WP guidelines and policies. -- Philcha ( talk) 09:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
<- I just reverted that. Lone editors should not merge policies without any sort of prior discussion at the policy talk page. Jehochman Talk 14:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Well, looking at WP:List of policies, a number of possible merges (with consequent trimming of excess material) suggest themselves immediately. For example:
-- Kotniski ( talk) 13:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I am posting this in concern that I believe Template:Gallery is allowed to use despite it Contradict the Polices that are cited on Template:Cleanup-gallery. Basically what is going on all over Wikipedia is that the most all the pages that use Template:Gallery is also topped with Template:Cleanup-gallery. The polices of the Cleanup Gallery Template cites the following source Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles and does not directly link to the Section #images which is located at Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Images, which in turn cites Wikipedia:Layout#Images and Wikipedia:Picture tutorial.
The Cite at Wikipedia:Layout#images does cite that "If an article has many images, so many, in fact, that they lengthen the page beyond the length of the text itself (this also applies if a template like {{taxobox}} or {{Judaism}} is already stretching the page), you can try to use a gallery, but the ideal solution might be to create a page or category combining all of them at Wikimedia Commons and use a relevant template ({{commons}}, {{commonscat}}, {{commons-inline}} or {{commonscat-inline}}) and link to it instead, so that further images are readily found and available when the article is expanded." It goes on linking to a failed Policy which show what the proper formating of Galleries and what is or isn't allowed for them.
I was considering placing Template:Cleanup-gallery or Template:Gallery on WP:TFD but I decided to ask here first instead as I feel that I want more details on why these 2 templates exist even though they contridict. Also I felt that the massive usage of the Template Cleanup-Gallery is being over used and I have seen it placed on image gallerys with as few 2-3 images. I have event tried to remove on of them only to get my edit reverted. (My Edit Log Reference: Lucas_Oil_Stadium) In my personal opinion I feel that the usage of the Template Cleanup-gallery is very unclear and does not specifically point to why the gallerys are not allowed on Wikipedia. In closing I hope this problem I am having gets straightened out. Sawblade05 ( talk to me | my wiki life) 05:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
If a company runs their own support forum and has there own people in it, would it not be acceptable to list the forum in an article about the company in the external links section?
Speaking of forum.. This site needs one. Email topic notification search by topic title only etc.. I dont htink it will ever happen though. This seems pretty cumbersom to use. kieranmullen ( talk) 00:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
See mw:Extension:LiquidThreads. — Werdna • talk 08:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Have a look at Buckwheat (or, in general, Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Peacock term). Are most readers going to know what a "peacock term" is? Have you guys seen other maintenance tags that may be obscure to the general reader? - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 02:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
What is the policy (or do we have one?) for using photoshop for slight retouches of famous people? I know stuff like photoshopping a mole out of Barack Obama.jpg isn't right, but what about stuff like what was done in BarackObama2005portrait.jpg? (See their revision histories. Also, sorry I couldn't internal link them, I've forgotten how to do so without actually showing the image. I'll fix when I can.) Jedibob5 ( talk) 01:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
This discussion on the general WP:MOS guideline talk page has probably started to venture off beyond being a MOS.
The point in question is basically about specific wikiprojects opting to use infoboxes or not, particularly if there are other projects an article falls under that would get an infobox (in the specific discussion, it is the Classical Music WP desiring not to use an infobox on composers even when the general People wikiproject suggest their use.
The main issue is of course are Infoboxes as necessary as some make them out to be. Some see these as duplication of the article text, as well as having random datum that would otherwise never be included in an article; in addition, for shorter articles, they can be a visual eyesore. Of course, they can also be seen as a useful "at a glance" section.
The second issue is where the purview of the use of an infobox falls under. In the above case, a classic composer falls under both the People and the Classical Music project. Which "project" has priority, or do neither do leaving it to the specific page editor to handle?
The final issue is more something that I am concerned with and that is the fact that infoboxes can be useful for creating meta-data for an article (for a person, for example, dates of birth and death, nationality, etc.) that can be computer-read and thus used to build meta tools to compare and combine such data appropriately (say, a timeline of when various people of a nationality lives); they are also often used to categorize articles automagically. Now, regardless if a project decides they don't want to have visible infoboxes, a simple modification to most infoboxes to allow them to be hidden via CSS (not collapsible hidden, but hidden via "display:none" CSS) can still be used to provide said meta-data without affecting page display. I would at least encourage this aspect to help make articles more useful via third-party tools, in the same manner that most articles with geo-spatial data can be mapped out. -- MASEM 18:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
My personal feeling is that wikiprojects should not make blanket requirements for the inclusion of infoboxes, as the biography project has done, but the use and structure of infoboxes should remain flexible to meet each individual article's needs. However, I have no problem with a project banning infoboxes, such as the composer project, if they prove to be problematic within a particular series or topic of articles. Personally I think wikipedia has gone info box mad and we could use a good weeding out of useless/poorly constructed info boxes. Most articles really don't need or benefit in any way from them. Nrswanson ( talk) 20:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I think a single project trying to "ban" infoboxes in "their" articles is a massive overstepping of the job of wikiprojects. Projects exist to aid and organize collaboration, not to create their own content rules that only apply to a few articles. The fact that infoboxes are so widely used in articles should be an indication that there is wide community support for them. One project doesn't really have the authority to overrule the community like that. Just because it isn't codified in official policy doesn't mean there isn't consensus. Sure the project can choose not to create a {{ infobox composer}}, but they have no authority to blanket revert the addition of infoboxes, that's just absolutely ridiculous. Mr. Z-man 21:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
My opinion: Infoboxes are often useful; sure, the lead probably mentions the person's birth and death dates, but "Born: November 1, 1972 / Died: December 1, 2008" can be easier to look up quickly than "Romeo Scragg (1972–2008) was born on November 1, 1972, in Dogpatch, USA. He lived an uneventful life as an alcoholic and pig farmer until his death on December 1, 2008." There is also something to be said for the uniformity of appearance that infoboxes can give to articles within a field. WikiProject's recommending or discouraging infoboxes should represent the consensus of the community in regard to articles within the project's scope; when an article is within the scope of multiple projects with differing consensus, a consensus for that article needs to be determined (neither project automatically "wins"). Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes looks like one person's opinion with no attempt at a balanced presentation, and not something that is terribly useful as actual guidance on use of infoboxes.
In the case of the WP:WPBIO versus WP:Composers, it looks to me like individuals on both sides are too entrenched to allow much progress, and the issue is too clouded with WP:OWN, WP:ILIKEIT/ WP:IDONTLIKEIT, vote counting, over-reaching generalities, and hysterical raisins. What is needed, IMO, is a collection of what real advantages and disadvantages there are to composer infoboxes, and whether enough can be done to minimize or eliminate the disadvantages (e.g. No damn flags!) to make the advantages worth it. Anomie ⚔ 22:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is being forced have an infobox bad, and forced to delete an infobox good governance? Both are forced, and both are disagreeable to the person with the opposite philosophical position. Your argument is that forced governance is bad, except when you guys are doing the forcing. Then it is rule by wisdom and enlightenment. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 01:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
This topic has been forum shopped around to at least seven pages including:
also Template talk:Infobox Person, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography, Template talk:Infobox Actor and probably others.
It isn't easy for those with an interest in the subject to have the energy, stamina and time to keep pace with all these simultaneous discussions - hence only two or three concerned editors seem to be represented here.
There is a considerable past history of discussions on the subject of biographical infoboxes, see Music biography infoboxes for links to many of them. This issue has consistently been the most disruptive faced by the music projects. One of the main reasons that bio-infoboxes are so disliked by content editors is that they involve some many time-wasting point attacks and accusations of ownership by essentially non-contributing editors. -- Klein zach 02:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
What is the policy of wikipedia relating to the use of KiB and KB and (GiB / GB)?
Personally, I'm sick of seeing this made up measurement of KiB.
The advantages of KB are: 1. KB is a known abriviation; people will understand it right away. 2. Choosing one policy for the whole of Wikipedia limits confusion. 3. KiB notation is not widespread in use (even so according to the KiB article). 4. Complete accuracy is often not that important to convey the message, when accuracy is very important; articles could fall back to the KiB notation. 5. The whole outside world uses the KB notation.
Following the discussion above about merging certain policy documents to make things a little more streamlined, I've gone away to think about the first of these merger proposals which could be a "runner". We are all Wikipedians aiming for the same cause, I just don't want to see editors new and old having to trawl through a Treaty-sized pile of articles before daring to start an article. The streamlining of the machine should make the product better produced.
My proposal is to merge current policies on Civility, Harassment, No Personal Attacks, and Attack Pages, into one single policy - "Civility and Conduct". I take the point that Legal Threats should stand alone.
I believe that a single behavioural policy will be easier to police, easier to understand and easier to implement. The current policies are confusing in their overlap (or potential to overlap), whilst I believe quite honestly that were we to work together to merge Civility, Harassment, No Personal Attacks, and Attack Pages together into a streamlined policy, "Civility and Conduct" will be one of the benchmarks of Wikipedia behaviour.
doktorb words deeds 12:47, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Yep, I'm sure we could do much better on the civility front. The confrontational atmosphere often found around WP must surely be one of the things that drive good editors away. I was thinking of proposing it as a kind of communal new year's resolution - but strengthening of the policy and enforcement (polite but serious warnings - followed up with blocks - until people start getting the message; uncivil comments allowed to be removed from wherever) might not be a bad direction to go in.-- Kotniski ( talk) 16:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
hello i can t understand how can Image:NSMiklos1-wiki.jpg and it's copies be a public domain?? it's author (photographer) haven't died 70 or more years ago. It's coloured, so it's improbable. It can be public domain, but not based on these licence terms.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (flora) appears to run counter to WP:NC, which is policy. Recently many articles have been moved from the common name to the scientific name. Just a few examples: Joshua tree to Yucca brevifolia; White oak to Quercus alba (which was then reversed): based on the logs, this one seems to have been moved and reversed 3 (!) times; Bur oak to Quercus macrocarpa. It is understandable that the scientific name might be preferred in cases where there is no single well-known common name or where the common name is ambiguous. But it seems contrary to policy to systematically prefer the scientific name, even in cases where there is a well-established, unambiguous common name. Given the participants there seem at loggerheads, I think broader comment here is warranted. Any takers? UnitedStatesian ( talk) 20:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
USian, I was right there with you initially. But reading the linked discussion on the flora naming conventions convinced me otherwise -- using scientific names by default and only using common names in exceptional cases prevents an awful lot of conflict among flora editors over which regional common-name is most appropriate. This is one of those areas where "use common names" causes more problems than it solves. Powers T 13:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if a copyrighted photography can be released via GNU? I'm confused about this image ( Image:Carlhancockrux.jpg). The summary notes the copyright is retained by one Felicia Megginson, I did a really quick google search for this person but was unable to find any conclusive contact information, I intended to e-mail for confirmation of authenticity. It appears to me that the image was taken from this website. Does this seem fishy to anyone else? Naufana : talk 23:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I'll nom on Commons, I tend to think it is an improper upload because the user uploaded an image of the cover of Rux's book Asphalt, which is released as GNU. This is obviously incorrect... I'll be fixing that as Fair Use just after I nom the original image. Thanks to everyone for their assistance. Naufana : talk 00:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I think important policy pages such as WP:BLP and such should be full protected due to their seriousness, and being possible vandal magnets. This should also be done for legal reasons due to their scope. Anyone agree?
On Wikibooks we do that, but then we have this "unstable branch" where people can propose changes. ViperSnake151 15:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd possibly agree so that users don't make massive changes that may be against consensus on the talk page. Policies are important, and people use them like a rule-book. It's no good if the rule book has the wrong thing in there. – How do you turn this on ( talk) 18:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
We certainly need to have some kind of stability in our rule-book. Making it much smaller would be the most productive step - then we could all keep track of what's changing and object to changes we don't like. Protection, however, normally seems to be necessary only when edit wars break out (as they do from time to time). It has the disadvantage that it prevents innocent copyediting.-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:59, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Solution looking for a problem. I've yet to see any major policy page be vandalized in such a way that seriously impacted anything... the costs of full protection greatly outweigh the benefit. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This is one of the things that Wikibooks gets exactly wrong. In the 7 years that Wikipedia has had policy pages, it has successfully dealt with vandalism, edit wars, and changes to consensus without having to resort to permanent full protection for any policy page. There is no evidence that this will change. Furthermore, many changes to policy have been made by non-administrators editing the pages in the normal way, reflecting consensus and talk-page discussion, and many improvements to our policies, such as copyedits, corrections of stale hyperlinks, and other things, are done by non-administrators. The only pages that we permanently protect for legal reasons are pages such as the general disclaimer and the copyright licence. Those are legal documents. Our policies are not. Wikibooks has an acute problem with overprotection, of which the protection of its policy pages is but one facet. (There are several large parts of its main namespace that are permanently fully protected, for no good reason, ironically leaving several books in a state of permanent disrepair that normal editors could have otherwise fixed.) This is not thinking that we need to import into Wikipedia. It's pretty bad thinking for Wikibooks. Uncle G ( talk) 20:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Repeat after me, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Any description of Wikipedia's policies as a "rulebook" represents a fundamental misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works. — Werdna • talk 08:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I am not saying Wikipedia is a bureaucracy because our page on "What Wikipedia is not" says so. I'm saying that Wikipedia is a bureaucracy because that is what I honestly believe, and obviously a lot of other people honestly believe this, because it's been written in our page on "What Wikipedia is not". Wikipedia's project-space pages serve to document accepted community practice, without presuming to dictate the same. If somebody writes "George W. Bush is gay" on his article, then George W. Bush does not leave his wife for another man. In the same way, if somebody writes a new policy, it does not enter into force when somebody puts the {{ policy}} tag on it. In fact, it "entered into force" far before that – when it reflected current community practice. Indeed, it may be that the policy "entered into force" before it was even written!
This is the misunderstanding you have about policy – you seem to think that Wikipedia's project namespace is a rulebook which dictates community practice. In fact, Wikipedia's project pages are more like articles than you think – we document what is already true, without trying to make it true.
Your assertion that rules are what stand between 'Wikipedia' and 'Uncyclopedia' is way off the mark. Even without a rulebook, we would not have pages full of bad jokes, we don't need a deletion policy to delete them. We would not be covered in vandalism, we don't need a vandalism policy to revert it. We would not be overrun by trolls, because we don't need a blocking policy to block them. All of these things are not the definitive guide to what is and isn't acceptable; they're what we've written down about what we tend to think is generally accepted.
This is the true meaning of 'Ignore all rules'.
Do you see what I'm getting at? — Werdna • talk 02:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, I clearly stated that rules can change. Go back and read my comments earlier in this thread. I don't have a misunderstanding. Zain Ebrahim ( talk) 09:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
If we're going to have an argument based on contradiction and assertion, then I don't see any value in continuing this discussion. Obviously, however, I am not convinced of the merits of your proposal. — Werdna • talk 00:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Some of the claims above (such as admin overload) would be solved if, in stead of full protection, we decide on semi protection. Additionally, a user who doesn't have experience on Wikipedia (like most anons and new users) should probably not be editing our policy - I think that one needs to be familiar with it before one can try to change it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
There is a poll at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship#8 failed RFAs so far this month re a proposal to set a minimum number of edits before an editor can submit an RFA Ϣere Spiel Chequers 17:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there any rule abuot when a user can legitimately decide to archive a subsection inside a talk page by surrounding it with something like this:
?-- pokipsy76 ( talk) 11:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
No, but let's create WP:DA – Discussion Archiving Policy. We'll have to come up with a whole bunch of metrics and hard rules to make sure that nobody ever illegitimately archives a discussion. — Werdna • talk 12:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
To be sensible, I don't think there's any need to have weird archive templates. 124.168.168.218 ( talk) 07:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I was direct here from WP:Help desk.
Hi everybody,
Recently I've been experiencing that some editors put messages towards other Wikipedians in their edit summaries. I, in my most humble opinion, find that unnecessary, let alone if that is a personal attack or an offensive stance ( [7], [8], [9]), for one thing, edit summaries can't be changed or deleted, except for admins. I don't know how others feel about this, but maybe the guide line should be updated, like by stating that is unnecessary to put anything in other than a small summary of one's editing. -- Soetermans | is listening | what he'd do now? 12:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Would screenshots from Youtube qualify as public domain? User5802 ( talk) 21:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
A policy to protect the privacy of families and individuals in private burial rituals, especially in process rituals and not meant for display, to have the consent of deceased persons if photographs are publicly posted.
A case in point:
There is a photograph of a deceased subject, nude, and in a private burial ceremony in Tibet.
The images in Tibetan Sky Burial article violate several photography and privacy policies.
This photo is illegally obtained by a foreign tourist, and photography of sky burials is not permitted by law in Tibet.
The photographer also verified that he did not have the consent of the government, or the private temple at which the photograph was taken, or of the deceased individual.
It is also unlikely that, if the subject were asked for consent when he was alive, that he would have consented to either the taking of this photograph, or the public display of it, as Tibetans and Buddhists traditionally do not permit photography of remains for religious reasons.
The laws against foreigners visiting sky burial sites, as well as
photography there are both Chinese and local Tibetan laws, as well as
religious laws of the property on which these burials are held. The Drigung
Kagyu monasteries, where these sky burials are performed, do not permit
photography of burials. They can be contacted at Drigung
Kagyu
[10].
Further information on governmental and regional law can be found in this book Multiculturalism in Asia [11], and these articles Tibetan sky burial [12] and Sky burials [13].
These photos are in violation of privacy, legality, decency, and consent.
These photos are also in violation of governmental laws of China intended to protect the traditional ceremonies, national and provincial laws of Tibet, cultural standards, and religious laws, and monastic laws, of the private property of where these were taken, and the family and deceased individual.
Please also include clear policy guidelines about photography of deceased persons.
- AthenaO ( talk) 16:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Further, the Tibetan national laws also forbid photography of these ceremonies.
Apart from the illegality of the photos,
an issue raised is of consent of deceased persons.
The deceased person in these photos did not give consent to have these photos taken.
What is the policy regarding deceased people, in private places, who do not give consent to have photos taken or published?
- AthenaO ( talk) 09:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
A new policy not needed, but an essay might be appropriate. If people follow the suggestions in the essay, it can become a guideline. Remember, on Wikipedia, guidelines and policies evolve out of consensus behavior. With the exception of policies required by law, which WP:OFFICE will inform us of if necessary, community consensus comes before policies and guidelines.
Please write up an essay describing "polite" image-use behavior for "private" images. Separately, write up an essay giving guidance on using images that were taken in violation of the law for other than trademark/copyright reasons but which are not themselves against US law to host on Wikipedia. Trademarks and copyrights are covered elsewhere in policy, and of course images which are criminal offenses to possess or use on web sites like child pornography are either covered by policy or so obvious they don't need a policy.
Personally, I would endorse an essay that said something along the lines of "Using photographs which would put Wikipedia in legal jeopardy is discouraged and may be subject to WP:OFFICE actions, but the burden of proof is on the person claiming the image is in fact legally risky. Such photographs may be used in a similar manner as fair-use copyright photographs while the legal status remains uncertain, subject to overrule by community consensus or office action for each image used. Discussion of the use of such images on a case-by-case basis is strongly encouraged." and "Using photographs where subject of the photograph or, for objects, events, places, and non-living persons, the owners or responsible parties have made it clear their expressed desire that the object, event, place, or non-living person not be photographed under any circumstance whatsoever is generally discouraged. Such images may be used when necessary to illustrate an article, subject to overrule by community consensus for each image used. Discussion of each such image is strongly encouraged to determine a community consensus." I would not endorse this as a guideline unless it became a consensus first.
Before putting it up as an essay, put it up as a user essay first and put a link to it here and on Wikipedia talk:Images soliciting opinions. If you get a few endorsements and no oppositions, or a lot of endorsements and a few oppositions, move it to Wikipedia: space as a normal essay. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 20:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I have initiated a discussion on this proposed new policy. TerriersFan ( talk) 20:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Discussion has already been closed as "no." davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 20:22, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I have searched and could not find a guideline discussing optimal page download times for Wikipedias target audiences. Does such a guideline exist? Miami33139 ( talk) 22:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Quoting from WT:Layout#Sister links:
I don't have a position, other than wanting the guideline to be stable, and this and similar questions have been argued for a while now. Any opinions? - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 03:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently involved in a slow-burning edit war with Planth ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who's repeatedly trying to reintroduce an unsourced section to the article Demographics of Japan, which came to my attention when an IP user removed it (with a rather confusing edit summary - my guess is they're not a native speaker). Since then, the only response I've gotten from Planth has been repeated "undo"s, despite my having attempted to contact him/her on the article talk page and his/her own talk page.
What's the appropriate response to a situation like this? Most of the dispute resolution systems in place assume that both sides are being communicative, which doesn't appear to be the case here. Trying to goad the other user into a 3RR violation is a pretty obviously icky way of getting their attention, and a full RFC seems like overkill at this point, so I'm not sure what the right approach is.
Any thoughts? Advice? Zetawoof( ζ) 12:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
The article Zefram Cochrane says:
I have no knowledge of this person but a reference to the the name made me look it up. I was surprised at the claims made and can only assume it is some science fiction stuff that has found its way into the encyclopedia. Perhaps it is meant to be a joke.
I can't see any explanation of why the article uses the past tense to refer to the future. I can only assume that this is a fictional article falsely protraying itself as fact. If the intention is to deceive the reader, it is an abuse of an encyclopedia. If there is no intention to deceive, then naive readers like me need a truthful explanation. Are there other such articles? If so, what is Wikipedia policy on such issues? Lightmouse ( talk) 05:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
What are the accepted notability guidelines for which Firefox extensions deserve articles? There appear to be quite a few that lack any external citation or independent claim of notability. Wikipedia:Notability (software) is defunct, so do we just go by strict notability guidelines? Thoughts? -- ZimZalaBim talk 02:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The following sentence was recently added to WP:MOS#IMAGES: "Images, including math-mode equations, should generally include alt text that describes the image for visually impaired readers." We could really use more discussion over at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#ALT text. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 16:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
According to Help:Merging and moving pages#Performing the merger, the source article must be recorded in the edit summary to comply with the GFDL. This requirement is frequently ignored in practice. Does it really carry any weight or is it more of a recommendation?
I have started a discussion at Help talk:Merging and moving pages#Merge edit summaries. Flatscan ( talk) 04:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I sometimes forget this myself, but failure to mention the origin of a block of copy-pasted text indeed violates the GFDL. This is a nightmare especially for anyone wishing to mirror part of Wikipedia. It is in practice impossible to legally re-destribute Wikipedia in any other form than as the full database, including all edit histories. This is ignored in practice, I have yet to see any Wikipedia mirror that gives me credit for the pieces I authored. This is strictly illegal, but I doubt anyone is going to go to court over it. -- dab (𒁳) 15:23, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
If anyone can edit the content of this "encyclopedia", then the accuracy of its content is in question and cannot be reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.230.1 ( talk) 05:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines#Anonymous-IP_address_warning_deletions is a new discussion to revisit the current wording of Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#User_talk_pages:
Users may freely remove comments from their own talk pages, though archiving is preferred. They may also remove some content in archiving. The removal of a warning is taken as evidence that the warning has been read by the user. This specifically includes both registered and anonymous users.
the bold part of which was added last April 19. This was previously discussed on WP:AN/I and Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines on March 9, here and here.
There are merits to allowing IP addresses to blank "their" talk pages and merits to not allowing it.
Please participate in the current discussion.
davidwr/(
talk)/(
contribs)/(
e-mail) 19:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: There is a letter allowing use of this image on Wikipedia. Soundvisions1 ( talk) 14:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I am amused by User:Megapixie's edit here, as he has now removed the exact example used in the policy WP:NFC#Unacceptable use Images # 4 to illustrate when fair-use is allowed, with the edit summary ""Raising the flag" is NOT fair use in this context - per Policy. Replacing with another suitable image." This must be something of a record in the annals of policy creep. Johnbod ( talk) 22:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content#Severe_overuse_problem, a debate has erupted regarding the use of sports teams logos.
Crux of the argument: Should team logos be used on all articles having to do with a team, such as season, rivalry, and championship articles, or should they be limited to the specific article about the team and an article about the team's logos (if such exists).
Not surprisingly, the debate has spun out of control, and is running in circles. Enjoy. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 14:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
and
There is a problem distinguishing titles from subtitles in articles, which adds a element of confusion. Subtitles should be noticeably less dominant on a page, but what is now being used inverts that. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 13:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there an existing policy that Wikipedia should have internal consistency?
By this I mean that all articles referring to a particular topic should have the same, or similar definition/description of that topic, and that Wikipedia should not contradict itself.
If it does not exist, would such a policy be useful, or even possible? Riversider2008 ( talk) 17:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
{{Contradict-other|Name of article it contradicts}}
to both articles and outline your concerns at the talk page. This would, at least, draw the attention of editors of one article to the other.
CIreland (
talk) 06:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The Not a ballot template clearly states that deletion decisions are made on the merits of the arguments.
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}} ; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
canvassed|username}} ; accounts blocked for
sockpuppetry: {{subst:
csm|username}} or {{subst:
csp|username}} . |
And yet in the Deletion review we find Admins saying the exact opposite: "It is not a competitive debate that is "won" or "lost" on the strength of arguments." and "I'm not aware that it's called a debate." Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 November 19#Allele
Given the enormous waste of time and energy that vexatious deletions cause, the Not a ballot should be more publicized and all admins reminded of it. Creation is hard work. Deletion is too easy. Delaszk ( talk) 20:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC) (uncivil comments removed) Delaszk ( talk) 15:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
So let me get this straight - DRV worked exactly as it's supposed to and the article in question, Allele (band), has been restored, yet Delaszk is here complaining of "deletion crazed admins" with their "stupid comments" who "are ruining Wikipedia"?? Let me assure all of you: What is ruining Wikipedia is a complete lack of respect for WP:CIVIL that is driving many long-time contributors away. Why we continue to tolerate this kind of behaviour I honestly have no idea. — Satori Son 20:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Stuff like this always makes me smile. People "outside" Wikipedia routinely mock the amount of crud, cruft and fanwankery we carry, to the point that it has become something of a running joke. It's only within Wikipedia that people seriously argue against removing such articles. (As it happens I tend to favour retention, I just don't believe in the Great Evil Plot). CIreland ( talk) 21:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Not meaning to belittle Satori's rather sweeping generalization, but as a reasonably conscientious contributor of several years' standing (does that make me a sufficiently longtime contributor?), if I were asked to name the one major source of frustration that has come close to making me feel like leaving, it is the ease with which some editors "contribute" by constantly removing information that is not triple ironclad enough. Anyone thinking I'm just whining is cordially invited to check out my recently archived request for comment which was mostly ignored, apparently largely because it challenged people's attention span, so I'm not going to reiterate all of it. Those who feel it would be intellectually honest to revisit the argument are welcome to find it in the archives. For those who feel it's all about soundbites anyway, I don't think I can better Delaszk: "Creation is hard work. Deletion is too easy." If that seems like an uncivil observation to some, all I can say is that perfunctorily junking whole sections that other contributors have worked on for weeks does not strike me as the epitome of courtesy either. Please note I am not commenting about the specific article that started this discussion but about the general unresolved issue I believe it has raised. Nude Amazon ( talk) 05:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
AFDs like this will end up at DRV either way. If an admin closes the debate against the majority, it'll be DRVd for going against consensus, and if an admin closes the debate against the arguments that are considered "stronger" for some reason, it'll be DRVd because "AFD is not a vote". All this discussion and argument is going to do is discourage people from closing AFDs, which is counterproductive. Stifle ( talk) 09:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
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In discussion of an article that I nominated for deletion [1], because of lack of notability, there has been some disagreement over what constitutes notability. Some editors claim that this [2], a series of newspaper mentions including the name of the group, constitutes notability. My own understanding is that per WP: Notability: Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail.... I understand that to mean that the mention of a name of a group in a few newspaper articles does not constitute notability, and a notable mention should include significant discussion of the group itself. Perhaps I have misunderstood the way this guideline is applied, and I would appreciate comments from other users to clarify the issue. Thanks. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 14:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Wow, Malcolm Schosha, you've picked a real tricky case as an example! I've just looked at European Jews for a Just Peace and done a little not very thorough Googling, and I understand your reservations about its notability. However it seems to be larger than e.g. the Monday Club, and although younger it seems to be stable and fairly well-organised. If a couple of decent news reports about incident / anniversary / issue X mentioned some action or statement by European Jews for a Just Peace, I'd accept that it's notable, even if the reports did not have much of a description. That's an example of my comment above that WP:N's address the subject directly in detail is excessive, since news reports might assume that readers know about European Jews for a Just Peace or can easily Google for it. If online versions of some reports linked to its site, I'd interpret that as indicating that the reporters have checked it out and regard it as a credible organisation, and then it would of course be notable. The other issue you raised was whether European Jews for a Just Peace is a WP:RS for a statement in Anti-Zionism. There I think it depends on the statment for which sources are being considered. If it's a flat statement that X is a fact or Y is the consensus, then I'd say "No". OTOH I can think of statements for which the organisation would be an adequate source, e.g. "European Jews for a Just Peace said that ..." or "Several Jewish organisations said that ..." or "Non-Israeli Jewish opinion is divided over ...". -- Philcha ( talk) 17:40, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Twice this week, I have called up a Wikipedia page without being logged on, to be greeted with "New message". I clicked the link to see a warning, "Do not vandalise or else". Obviously I had picked up the same IP address a vandal was using many months ago. It then occurred to me that this must be happening to lots of non-editors. People who only come to read Wikipedia being greeted with warnings!
Is there any point in placing vandal warnings on IP pages. Yes, if the vandalism is currently in process, but after a few hours, the message is more likely to be displayed to an innocent bystander. Should the IP talk pages be deleted after 24 hours? ++ MortimerCat ( talk) 20:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Somewhere, we need to warn editors not to link to "ap.google.com" for Associated Press articles. Those pages only have a lifetime of a month or so. The link left behind is useless; it's just a big encoded string that can't be referenced to another source for the same article. -- John Nagle ( talk) 21:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Berne Convention Article 10
(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their making is compatible with fair practice, and their extent does not exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries.
It rules not "can quote text, speech" but "can quote work" Work is not only text. Work also include "text, image, video, draw, voice, speech, song, etc"
In South Korea Copyright law,
image or media's fair use clause is not exist.
But, Korea, Berne Convention Article 10 is effected.
Berne Convention Article 10, People can quote from a work.
In korea, image fair use = image quotation.
In korea, vedio fair use = video quotation.
South Korean Copyright Act
Article 28(Quotations from Works Made Public) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work already being made public provided that they are within a reasonable limit for news reporting, criticism, education and research, etc. and compatible with fair practice.
It rules not "can quote text, speech" but "can quote work"
Work is not only text. Work also include "text, image, video, draw, voice, speech, song, etc"
So, in korea, "image fair use"? no. korean calls it as "image quotation".
So, in korea, "video fair use"? no. korean calls it as "video quotation".
So, korean can ask.
Wikiquote, why it is only for text quotaion? where for image, video?
Wikiquote, Of course, we can quote anything from copyrighted text. regardless of their licensing status.
Example:
it is all copyrighted work.
So, South Korean can ask as following:
In wikipedia, wikiquote, users don't discuss the original text's license. All user can quote from copyrigeted text, speech freely. Nobody don't discuss the original text's license. Nobody don't discuss to delete because of copyright infringement, not fair use, etc.
So, In wikipedia, wikiquote, Why users discuss the original image's license?
Why American discriminate between "text, speech"'s quotantion and "image, video"'s quotantion?
World standard copyright law, Berne Convention Article 10 rules that We can quote "the work", not only text, speech.
Why we can't quote copyrited image freely like text?
You are american? so you know only U.S. copyright act?
But, the world standard copyright law, Berne Convention exist.
In Berne Convention, you can find "fair use clause"? No. only exist "fair quote clause"
I want to quote image, viedo freely like text in wikipedia, other wikimedia projects worldwide.
"ALL CUONTRY HAVE Berne Convention"
Thanks :) -- WonRyong ( talk) 03:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a new notability proposal up at Wikipedia:Notability (fiction). Unlike past attempts, this one tries to start from the existing trends in inclusion and deletion on AfD, and go from there to guidelines. As such, it is unlikely to please any hard partisans on either the inclusionist or deletionist camps, but is similarly unlikely to actually offend anyone. But comments are very much welcome on the page - I'd like to try to get it to guideline status so that the deletion debates on this topic can be put behind us. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 14:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
The discussion of image sizes, especially lead image sizes, at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Forcing Lead image may affect thousands of artciles and editors, but only a handful of editors are currently involved in the discussion. Please make your views known at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Forcing Lead image. -- Philcha ( talk) 11:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Can an RFC be amended after it people have started voting? There is active comments section. However, the RFC itself has been modified by the addition (at 0852 on 24 November) of opposing comments highlighted in a big green box as part of the RFC text. What do people here think? See the big green box at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#RfC:_Three_proposals_for_change_to_MOSNUM. Regards. Lightmouse ( talk) 13:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#WP:BATTLE regarding the content and the meaning of WP:BATTLE and regarding possible additions to the current text of WP:BATTLE. I'd like to invite further input. Thanks, Nsk92 ( talk) 19:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
(With apologies if I am formatting this wrongly, this is the first time I have ever initiated a request for comment)
I have been intermittently contributing to Wikipedia to the best of my ability for several years now, and I used to enjoy it, but for the last several months I have found it increasingly frustrating, to the point that I am considering giving up on Wikipedia and mourning the loss of what used to be a useful and fun resource. Since essentially the only source of my frustration is one particular issue, I will venture to try and explain that issue here and invite comment and suggestions from the WP community at large.
In the past few months, a considerable proportion of the pages on my watchlist at least have been plagued with what I was originally tempted to refer to as raiding and nuking. However, since some people might regard this as insufficiently neutral to use as a convenient shorthand, I cast about for a more neutral term and came up with dismissive deletion to describe the process whereby one or more sections of an article (occasionally amounting to most of the content of an article) are removed without any replacement whatsoever and without any form of discussion on the relevant talk page. At best there may be a quasi-bot justification in the edit summary, typically appealing perfunctorily and without explanation to such Wikipedia policies as WP:NN, WP:TRIV, WP:REF, WP:NOR, WP:SYN (the list is not exhaustive). Depressingly often, addressing the implied criticism and restoring the removed information leads merely to renewed destruction of the information under the cover of another policy (equally perfunctorily and without elaboration). For a recent example see Talk:Never Say Never Again.
In my opinion, this kind of dismissive deletion at best does not make any positive contribution to Wikipedia (since the information is in effect simply destroyed without any replacement) and at worst differs from vandalism only in claiming to be founded on Wikipedia policies that more often than not were instituted for reasons that have nothing to do with the perceived violation. For example, hardly any organized bulleted listing of information is safe from being destroyed (removed without any replacement) based on the most perfunctory reference to WP:TRIV, in spite of the fact that the relevant policy specifically states that "This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all" (emphasis added) and "a selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information" (emphasis in original). Despite this recommendation, in most edits justified on the basis of this policy I have seen, the information is simply destroyed.
Similarly, statements that can be independently verified by anyone willing to watch a DVD or listen to a commentary track are routinely removed based on WP:REF if the source is not exhaustively referenced, but decried as original research and removed based on WP:NOR if it is clear that the information was obtained by, guess what, watching the source (Please do not say the example is too ridiculous for words, I saw it with my own eyes). However, having done some serious research of late into Wikipedia policies, I found that the original research requirement historically originated in the elaboration of the neutrality principle, specifically: "The original motivation for NOR was to prevent editors from introducing fringe views ... or from excluding verifiable views that, in the judgement of editors, were incorrect. It soon became clear that the policy should apply to any editor trying to introduce his or her own views into an article" (quoted from core policies history page, emphasis added). In other words, the NOR requirement originated specifically to prevent the exclusion of information, making it particularly ironic that its most pervasive and routine use now seems to be as an excuse to remove information without any replacement whatsoever :(
Whatever mistaken impressions some people might have, I am not gratuitously whining about someone "messing with my edits". In the example mentioned above, the original edits I went to bat for were not mine (nor indeed any one person's, as a perusal of the page history would make clear). I am not trying to defend mine or anyone else's private turf. I am trying to defend the usefulness of Wikipedia as a resource for otherwise hard to find information for myself and everyone else's sake. I love to use Wikipedia and I love to contribute what I can to the best of my ability (however much it may fall short of some people's standards of perfection). But if Wikipedia has any use at all, it is as an organized repository of linked information that would otherwise be hard to collect piecemeal (ever tried to wade through 400,000 Google hits?), and the increasing pervasiveness of dismissive deletion as I have described is disheartening and frustrating. Nothing is easier than "raiding" articles looking for easy prey for deletion. Researching and contributing useful information is much harder, especially if one's contributions are expected to run the gauntlet of a web of policy requirements that gives the aspiring raider a surfeit of sticks with which to beat the dog (is it "original research" to hear James Earl Jones say Kotlas in Dr. Strangelove? if not, maybe we can decry it as "unsourced"? or maybe it's not "notable" enough? or maybe we can just call it too trivial, Slim Pickens's bomb ride notwithstanding?).
I welcome any suggestions or proposals to deal with the (in my experience) increasingly pervasive problem of dismissive deletion (or even any reasoned explanation of why it is not considered a problem). With apologies for the original research ;) according to my personal anecdotal count of the pages I have been keeping tabs on for the last 6 weeks (in my watchlist and out), dismissive deletion (defined as the removal of information without replacement or justification except a perfunctory appeal to the unexamined letter of WP policy) is the third most frequent type of change observed to the average article, after bot-mediated edits and spelling corrections. I truly hope I am not the only one to feel that this is a problem :/ Nude Amazon ( talk) 13:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
People have repeatedly requested "better examples" of the kind of dismissive deletion that I believe to be problematic. So far I have been reluctant to do so for at least 3 reasons:
Having said that, let me attempt to dispel the genuine puzzlement of those who have asked for better examples. Casting about for an example suitably lacking in personal involvement (per my first concern aforementioned), let me try the following example in the Casino Royale (1967 film) article [ before and after]. Note that the deletion in question is typically dismissive, with no more than a perfunctory note in the edit summary. Note also that the dismissive deletion significantly destroys a link to the relevant director, effectively without replacement. Although the remover (again typically) does not so much as mention it, it might occur to well-meaning contributors that the likelihood of overlinking obviates this concern. However, this potential excuse does not apply to this example, since Casino Royale is precisely unusual in having involved five different directors! Finally, as to the token justification offered, the damning accusation of original research is amazingly (but alas, again typically) taken for granted. As it happens, the information can be checked in the simplest way by watching the film The Life and Death of Peter Sellers just mentioned higher in the same paragraph. What on Earth does not constitute original research by this reasoning? By the same logic, should every single reference whatsoever to any media not readily accessible online be ruled out of court? After all, if it's from a book or journal, someone would have to go to a library to look it up!!! What on Earth would satisfy such a draconic dismissive interpretation of the original research rule? Mere mention of the source is obviously not enough. DVD chapters? (for the record, Chapter 12 on the 2005 HBO DVD 92833A) Time stamps? (for the record, 1:24:15 to 1:25:24, same DVD edition) Yes, it took time and effort to look up these references (which are supposedly required, or the information is unceremoniously destroyed), which I guess is the excuse for calling it original research and destroying the information anyway. Catch-22, anyone?
I hope this example clarifies what I consider to be the problem of dismissive deletion, but given the all too tangible risk (per my second concern aforementioned) that people might get lost in the particularities of the example, I feel compelled to give another example differing from the previous one in being partly personal (throwing my first concern to the winds) and in (throwing my third concern to the winds with a due sense of apprehension and dread) having managed to stay out of the crosshairs of dismissive zappers so far (it also shares with the previous example the distinction of deliberately not being about trivia this time). You see, I did in a sense give a second example in my original post, but I chickened out by not explicitly calling it an example, because so far it has managed to survive safely in relative obscurity. A while ago I added a short paragraph to the Kotlas article based on the consideration that its direct relation to one of our culture's most iconic images [ [3]] would be sufficient to protect it from the usual dismissive notability attack. It is less of a poetic exaggeration than I would like that I have been apprehensive of dismissive deletion attacks from the reference-requiring direction (is the link to Dr. Strangelove enough?) and from the original-research-killer direction (if I provide the extra information that James Earl Jones says "Kotlas" at precisely 1:18:59 in Chapter 23 of the special edition DVD, ISBN 0-7678-6372-0, am I waving a red flag in front of any original research bulls?). I apologize if that sounds a little paranoid, but the pervasive prevalence of dismissive deletion is starting to make me feel that way about nearly every contribution I make. I am trying to make a constructive contribution, but I am getting a bit tired of negotiating a minefield of dismissively destructive contributions :( I hope that clarifies both the nature of the problem and the extent to which I have come to feel it is a problem Nude Amazon ( talk) 07:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I've seen the claim that "Policy overrides consensus" appearing around wikipedia. Even sprouted by administrators [4]. To me this seems a non tenable position. Our policy on policies explicitly states that both policies and guidelines should be approached with common sense, and indicates that IAR applies. Am I completely in the wrong here? Taemyr ( talk) 07:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
There are three proposals for a change to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). In summary, they are:
Voting is already underway. Feel free to add your vote at: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#RfC:_Three_proposals_for_change_to_MOSNUM Regards Lightmouse ( talk) 20:14, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Are articles on songs in languages other than English allowed? I noticed a couple of them like Dragostea din tei and Kuch Is Tarah. But if that is so, wouldn't it bulge the size of WP too much? Thanks. 125.21.165.158 ( talk) 11:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I've dobbed all the bureaucrats in in a new idea for a safety valve/point of redress/check and balance/good governance/etc. --> here
My idea would be this was a low volume committee which could be established by any five 'crats for the situations described. Has something like this been discussed before? Cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 04:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
It's mindblowing that a girl Tukker shows more interest in US historical monuments than the inhabitants of the US. Isn't there at least ONE person in the expletive deleted county who CARES? While every article about US-towns drones on about how much everybody earnes, and what nationalities their great-granddads had, it's virtually impossible to find out anything about the actual HISTORY of these villages. Somebody must have founded them, something must have happened, ANYTHING, PLEASE!!! 85.113.253.229 ( talk) 17:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps my understanding of this issue is not nuanced enough, but it appears that Kleuske is making a point about how boring and uninformative stub articles are? However I doubt that is it because most editors recognize that is what stubs are like ... you know, just a stub of an article. Yet if an Ohio history enthusiast or bridge expert were to cast their creative hand on the article, I am sure it could be radically improved. Now that is not to say that everyone would find an article on the topic interesting (much like how my eyes glaze over when I run across one of the many Warhammer 40,000 or American football articles). So again I am back to what is the point here? -- Kralizec! ( talk) 02:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Mr. Z-man 03:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have created a proposed policy for speedy hoax deletion on User:Darth Panda/Proposed Deletion for a Hoax. As this is my first time proposing a policy, I would be glad to hear any critiques or comments about my proposal. Please direct all comments to User talk:Darth Panda/Proposed Deletion for a Hoax. Thanks! DARTH PANDA duel 02:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I am concerned about the number of discussions regarding important WP policy matters, of which the vast majority of editors are unaware. Placing this template on ALL talkpages would be of enormous help in keeping users in touch with policy discussions and developments, enabling them to participate in debates of their choosing. Rotational ( talk) 21:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
On every discussion page? No thanks. On a greater number of Wikipedia related pages? sure. Reso lute 23:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not a software developer, but I know that placing the template on every user's page is not only technically possible, but simple. If the user doesn't want to be kept informed of the important issues of the day, then it is again a simple matter for him to turn it off (see the "Funds appeal banner" which can be turned off permanently by accessing 'preferences/gadgets'). I don't think the template should be rammed down anyone's throat, but it should rather be seen as an obvious means of keeping in touch with developments, and to be turned off at the user's convenience. This touches on the far greater issue of being informed about discussions on ALL matters, and not just policy developments - in other words a bulletin board where the user chooses his areas of interest and doesn't clutter his screen with notices that fall outside those areas. This is not a pipe dream - it is actually possible. ciao Rotational ( talk) 07:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
This is spilling into the next thread, so here's a {{clear}} -- Philcha ( talk) 17:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I support putting it on a wider variety of project talk pages, but putting this on every single talk page on the largest website in existence? No thankyou-- Patton 123 18:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Watchlist might be a nice place to put it. — Werdna • talk 07:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
A contributor to #Proposal_to_include_template_.7B.7Bcent.7D.7D_on_every__discussion_page estimates that there about 300 pages of guidelines and policies. At Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Guideline-by-guideline citation of sources an experienced editor wrote "I do not know the complete set of guidelines to which an article is subject." I suggest we list somewhere all the guidelines and policies and then see what we can do to prune them. It looks as if it's now easier to become an expert in an academic subject than to become an expert on WP guidelines and policies. -- Philcha ( talk) 09:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
<- I just reverted that. Lone editors should not merge policies without any sort of prior discussion at the policy talk page. Jehochman Talk 14:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Well, looking at WP:List of policies, a number of possible merges (with consequent trimming of excess material) suggest themselves immediately. For example:
-- Kotniski ( talk) 13:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I am posting this in concern that I believe Template:Gallery is allowed to use despite it Contradict the Polices that are cited on Template:Cleanup-gallery. Basically what is going on all over Wikipedia is that the most all the pages that use Template:Gallery is also topped with Template:Cleanup-gallery. The polices of the Cleanup Gallery Template cites the following source Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles and does not directly link to the Section #images which is located at Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Images, which in turn cites Wikipedia:Layout#Images and Wikipedia:Picture tutorial.
The Cite at Wikipedia:Layout#images does cite that "If an article has many images, so many, in fact, that they lengthen the page beyond the length of the text itself (this also applies if a template like {{taxobox}} or {{Judaism}} is already stretching the page), you can try to use a gallery, but the ideal solution might be to create a page or category combining all of them at Wikimedia Commons and use a relevant template ({{commons}}, {{commonscat}}, {{commons-inline}} or {{commonscat-inline}}) and link to it instead, so that further images are readily found and available when the article is expanded." It goes on linking to a failed Policy which show what the proper formating of Galleries and what is or isn't allowed for them.
I was considering placing Template:Cleanup-gallery or Template:Gallery on WP:TFD but I decided to ask here first instead as I feel that I want more details on why these 2 templates exist even though they contridict. Also I felt that the massive usage of the Template Cleanup-Gallery is being over used and I have seen it placed on image gallerys with as few 2-3 images. I have event tried to remove on of them only to get my edit reverted. (My Edit Log Reference: Lucas_Oil_Stadium) In my personal opinion I feel that the usage of the Template Cleanup-gallery is very unclear and does not specifically point to why the gallerys are not allowed on Wikipedia. In closing I hope this problem I am having gets straightened out. Sawblade05 ( talk to me | my wiki life) 05:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
If a company runs their own support forum and has there own people in it, would it not be acceptable to list the forum in an article about the company in the external links section?
Speaking of forum.. This site needs one. Email topic notification search by topic title only etc.. I dont htink it will ever happen though. This seems pretty cumbersom to use. kieranmullen ( talk) 00:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
See mw:Extension:LiquidThreads. — Werdna • talk 08:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Have a look at Buckwheat (or, in general, Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Peacock term). Are most readers going to know what a "peacock term" is? Have you guys seen other maintenance tags that may be obscure to the general reader? - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 02:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
What is the policy (or do we have one?) for using photoshop for slight retouches of famous people? I know stuff like photoshopping a mole out of Barack Obama.jpg isn't right, but what about stuff like what was done in BarackObama2005portrait.jpg? (See their revision histories. Also, sorry I couldn't internal link them, I've forgotten how to do so without actually showing the image. I'll fix when I can.) Jedibob5 ( talk) 01:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
This discussion on the general WP:MOS guideline talk page has probably started to venture off beyond being a MOS.
The point in question is basically about specific wikiprojects opting to use infoboxes or not, particularly if there are other projects an article falls under that would get an infobox (in the specific discussion, it is the Classical Music WP desiring not to use an infobox on composers even when the general People wikiproject suggest their use.
The main issue is of course are Infoboxes as necessary as some make them out to be. Some see these as duplication of the article text, as well as having random datum that would otherwise never be included in an article; in addition, for shorter articles, they can be a visual eyesore. Of course, they can also be seen as a useful "at a glance" section.
The second issue is where the purview of the use of an infobox falls under. In the above case, a classic composer falls under both the People and the Classical Music project. Which "project" has priority, or do neither do leaving it to the specific page editor to handle?
The final issue is more something that I am concerned with and that is the fact that infoboxes can be useful for creating meta-data for an article (for a person, for example, dates of birth and death, nationality, etc.) that can be computer-read and thus used to build meta tools to compare and combine such data appropriately (say, a timeline of when various people of a nationality lives); they are also often used to categorize articles automagically. Now, regardless if a project decides they don't want to have visible infoboxes, a simple modification to most infoboxes to allow them to be hidden via CSS (not collapsible hidden, but hidden via "display:none" CSS) can still be used to provide said meta-data without affecting page display. I would at least encourage this aspect to help make articles more useful via third-party tools, in the same manner that most articles with geo-spatial data can be mapped out. -- MASEM 18:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
My personal feeling is that wikiprojects should not make blanket requirements for the inclusion of infoboxes, as the biography project has done, but the use and structure of infoboxes should remain flexible to meet each individual article's needs. However, I have no problem with a project banning infoboxes, such as the composer project, if they prove to be problematic within a particular series or topic of articles. Personally I think wikipedia has gone info box mad and we could use a good weeding out of useless/poorly constructed info boxes. Most articles really don't need or benefit in any way from them. Nrswanson ( talk) 20:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I think a single project trying to "ban" infoboxes in "their" articles is a massive overstepping of the job of wikiprojects. Projects exist to aid and organize collaboration, not to create their own content rules that only apply to a few articles. The fact that infoboxes are so widely used in articles should be an indication that there is wide community support for them. One project doesn't really have the authority to overrule the community like that. Just because it isn't codified in official policy doesn't mean there isn't consensus. Sure the project can choose not to create a {{ infobox composer}}, but they have no authority to blanket revert the addition of infoboxes, that's just absolutely ridiculous. Mr. Z-man 21:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
My opinion: Infoboxes are often useful; sure, the lead probably mentions the person's birth and death dates, but "Born: November 1, 1972 / Died: December 1, 2008" can be easier to look up quickly than "Romeo Scragg (1972–2008) was born on November 1, 1972, in Dogpatch, USA. He lived an uneventful life as an alcoholic and pig farmer until his death on December 1, 2008." There is also something to be said for the uniformity of appearance that infoboxes can give to articles within a field. WikiProject's recommending or discouraging infoboxes should represent the consensus of the community in regard to articles within the project's scope; when an article is within the scope of multiple projects with differing consensus, a consensus for that article needs to be determined (neither project automatically "wins"). Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes looks like one person's opinion with no attempt at a balanced presentation, and not something that is terribly useful as actual guidance on use of infoboxes.
In the case of the WP:WPBIO versus WP:Composers, it looks to me like individuals on both sides are too entrenched to allow much progress, and the issue is too clouded with WP:OWN, WP:ILIKEIT/ WP:IDONTLIKEIT, vote counting, over-reaching generalities, and hysterical raisins. What is needed, IMO, is a collection of what real advantages and disadvantages there are to composer infoboxes, and whether enough can be done to minimize or eliminate the disadvantages (e.g. No damn flags!) to make the advantages worth it. Anomie ⚔ 22:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is being forced have an infobox bad, and forced to delete an infobox good governance? Both are forced, and both are disagreeable to the person with the opposite philosophical position. Your argument is that forced governance is bad, except when you guys are doing the forcing. Then it is rule by wisdom and enlightenment. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 01:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
This topic has been forum shopped around to at least seven pages including:
also Template talk:Infobox Person, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography, Template talk:Infobox Actor and probably others.
It isn't easy for those with an interest in the subject to have the energy, stamina and time to keep pace with all these simultaneous discussions - hence only two or three concerned editors seem to be represented here.
There is a considerable past history of discussions on the subject of biographical infoboxes, see Music biography infoboxes for links to many of them. This issue has consistently been the most disruptive faced by the music projects. One of the main reasons that bio-infoboxes are so disliked by content editors is that they involve some many time-wasting point attacks and accusations of ownership by essentially non-contributing editors. -- Klein zach 02:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
What is the policy of wikipedia relating to the use of KiB and KB and (GiB / GB)?
Personally, I'm sick of seeing this made up measurement of KiB.
The advantages of KB are: 1. KB is a known abriviation; people will understand it right away. 2. Choosing one policy for the whole of Wikipedia limits confusion. 3. KiB notation is not widespread in use (even so according to the KiB article). 4. Complete accuracy is often not that important to convey the message, when accuracy is very important; articles could fall back to the KiB notation. 5. The whole outside world uses the KB notation.
Following the discussion above about merging certain policy documents to make things a little more streamlined, I've gone away to think about the first of these merger proposals which could be a "runner". We are all Wikipedians aiming for the same cause, I just don't want to see editors new and old having to trawl through a Treaty-sized pile of articles before daring to start an article. The streamlining of the machine should make the product better produced.
My proposal is to merge current policies on Civility, Harassment, No Personal Attacks, and Attack Pages, into one single policy - "Civility and Conduct". I take the point that Legal Threats should stand alone.
I believe that a single behavioural policy will be easier to police, easier to understand and easier to implement. The current policies are confusing in their overlap (or potential to overlap), whilst I believe quite honestly that were we to work together to merge Civility, Harassment, No Personal Attacks, and Attack Pages together into a streamlined policy, "Civility and Conduct" will be one of the benchmarks of Wikipedia behaviour.
doktorb words deeds 12:47, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Yep, I'm sure we could do much better on the civility front. The confrontational atmosphere often found around WP must surely be one of the things that drive good editors away. I was thinking of proposing it as a kind of communal new year's resolution - but strengthening of the policy and enforcement (polite but serious warnings - followed up with blocks - until people start getting the message; uncivil comments allowed to be removed from wherever) might not be a bad direction to go in.-- Kotniski ( talk) 16:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
hello i can t understand how can Image:NSMiklos1-wiki.jpg and it's copies be a public domain?? it's author (photographer) haven't died 70 or more years ago. It's coloured, so it's improbable. It can be public domain, but not based on these licence terms.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (flora) appears to run counter to WP:NC, which is policy. Recently many articles have been moved from the common name to the scientific name. Just a few examples: Joshua tree to Yucca brevifolia; White oak to Quercus alba (which was then reversed): based on the logs, this one seems to have been moved and reversed 3 (!) times; Bur oak to Quercus macrocarpa. It is understandable that the scientific name might be preferred in cases where there is no single well-known common name or where the common name is ambiguous. But it seems contrary to policy to systematically prefer the scientific name, even in cases where there is a well-established, unambiguous common name. Given the participants there seem at loggerheads, I think broader comment here is warranted. Any takers? UnitedStatesian ( talk) 20:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
USian, I was right there with you initially. But reading the linked discussion on the flora naming conventions convinced me otherwise -- using scientific names by default and only using common names in exceptional cases prevents an awful lot of conflict among flora editors over which regional common-name is most appropriate. This is one of those areas where "use common names" causes more problems than it solves. Powers T 13:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering if a copyrighted photography can be released via GNU? I'm confused about this image ( Image:Carlhancockrux.jpg). The summary notes the copyright is retained by one Felicia Megginson, I did a really quick google search for this person but was unable to find any conclusive contact information, I intended to e-mail for confirmation of authenticity. It appears to me that the image was taken from this website. Does this seem fishy to anyone else? Naufana : talk 23:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I'll nom on Commons, I tend to think it is an improper upload because the user uploaded an image of the cover of Rux's book Asphalt, which is released as GNU. This is obviously incorrect... I'll be fixing that as Fair Use just after I nom the original image. Thanks to everyone for their assistance. Naufana : talk 00:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I think important policy pages such as WP:BLP and such should be full protected due to their seriousness, and being possible vandal magnets. This should also be done for legal reasons due to their scope. Anyone agree?
On Wikibooks we do that, but then we have this "unstable branch" where people can propose changes. ViperSnake151 15:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd possibly agree so that users don't make massive changes that may be against consensus on the talk page. Policies are important, and people use them like a rule-book. It's no good if the rule book has the wrong thing in there. – How do you turn this on ( talk) 18:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
We certainly need to have some kind of stability in our rule-book. Making it much smaller would be the most productive step - then we could all keep track of what's changing and object to changes we don't like. Protection, however, normally seems to be necessary only when edit wars break out (as they do from time to time). It has the disadvantage that it prevents innocent copyediting.-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:59, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Solution looking for a problem. I've yet to see any major policy page be vandalized in such a way that seriously impacted anything... the costs of full protection greatly outweigh the benefit. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This is one of the things that Wikibooks gets exactly wrong. In the 7 years that Wikipedia has had policy pages, it has successfully dealt with vandalism, edit wars, and changes to consensus without having to resort to permanent full protection for any policy page. There is no evidence that this will change. Furthermore, many changes to policy have been made by non-administrators editing the pages in the normal way, reflecting consensus and talk-page discussion, and many improvements to our policies, such as copyedits, corrections of stale hyperlinks, and other things, are done by non-administrators. The only pages that we permanently protect for legal reasons are pages such as the general disclaimer and the copyright licence. Those are legal documents. Our policies are not. Wikibooks has an acute problem with overprotection, of which the protection of its policy pages is but one facet. (There are several large parts of its main namespace that are permanently fully protected, for no good reason, ironically leaving several books in a state of permanent disrepair that normal editors could have otherwise fixed.) This is not thinking that we need to import into Wikipedia. It's pretty bad thinking for Wikibooks. Uncle G ( talk) 20:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Repeat after me, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Any description of Wikipedia's policies as a "rulebook" represents a fundamental misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works. — Werdna • talk 08:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I am not saying Wikipedia is a bureaucracy because our page on "What Wikipedia is not" says so. I'm saying that Wikipedia is a bureaucracy because that is what I honestly believe, and obviously a lot of other people honestly believe this, because it's been written in our page on "What Wikipedia is not". Wikipedia's project-space pages serve to document accepted community practice, without presuming to dictate the same. If somebody writes "George W. Bush is gay" on his article, then George W. Bush does not leave his wife for another man. In the same way, if somebody writes a new policy, it does not enter into force when somebody puts the {{ policy}} tag on it. In fact, it "entered into force" far before that – when it reflected current community practice. Indeed, it may be that the policy "entered into force" before it was even written!
This is the misunderstanding you have about policy – you seem to think that Wikipedia's project namespace is a rulebook which dictates community practice. In fact, Wikipedia's project pages are more like articles than you think – we document what is already true, without trying to make it true.
Your assertion that rules are what stand between 'Wikipedia' and 'Uncyclopedia' is way off the mark. Even without a rulebook, we would not have pages full of bad jokes, we don't need a deletion policy to delete them. We would not be covered in vandalism, we don't need a vandalism policy to revert it. We would not be overrun by trolls, because we don't need a blocking policy to block them. All of these things are not the definitive guide to what is and isn't acceptable; they're what we've written down about what we tend to think is generally accepted.
This is the true meaning of 'Ignore all rules'.
Do you see what I'm getting at? — Werdna • talk 02:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, I clearly stated that rules can change. Go back and read my comments earlier in this thread. I don't have a misunderstanding. Zain Ebrahim ( talk) 09:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
If we're going to have an argument based on contradiction and assertion, then I don't see any value in continuing this discussion. Obviously, however, I am not convinced of the merits of your proposal. — Werdna • talk 00:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Some of the claims above (such as admin overload) would be solved if, in stead of full protection, we decide on semi protection. Additionally, a user who doesn't have experience on Wikipedia (like most anons and new users) should probably not be editing our policy - I think that one needs to be familiar with it before one can try to change it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
There is a poll at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship#8 failed RFAs so far this month re a proposal to set a minimum number of edits before an editor can submit an RFA Ϣere Spiel Chequers 17:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there any rule abuot when a user can legitimately decide to archive a subsection inside a talk page by surrounding it with something like this:
?-- pokipsy76 ( talk) 11:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
No, but let's create WP:DA – Discussion Archiving Policy. We'll have to come up with a whole bunch of metrics and hard rules to make sure that nobody ever illegitimately archives a discussion. — Werdna • talk 12:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
To be sensible, I don't think there's any need to have weird archive templates. 124.168.168.218 ( talk) 07:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I was direct here from WP:Help desk.
Hi everybody,
Recently I've been experiencing that some editors put messages towards other Wikipedians in their edit summaries. I, in my most humble opinion, find that unnecessary, let alone if that is a personal attack or an offensive stance ( [7], [8], [9]), for one thing, edit summaries can't be changed or deleted, except for admins. I don't know how others feel about this, but maybe the guide line should be updated, like by stating that is unnecessary to put anything in other than a small summary of one's editing. -- Soetermans | is listening | what he'd do now? 12:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Would screenshots from Youtube qualify as public domain? User5802 ( talk) 21:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
A policy to protect the privacy of families and individuals in private burial rituals, especially in process rituals and not meant for display, to have the consent of deceased persons if photographs are publicly posted.
A case in point:
There is a photograph of a deceased subject, nude, and in a private burial ceremony in Tibet.
The images in Tibetan Sky Burial article violate several photography and privacy policies.
This photo is illegally obtained by a foreign tourist, and photography of sky burials is not permitted by law in Tibet.
The photographer also verified that he did not have the consent of the government, or the private temple at which the photograph was taken, or of the deceased individual.
It is also unlikely that, if the subject were asked for consent when he was alive, that he would have consented to either the taking of this photograph, or the public display of it, as Tibetans and Buddhists traditionally do not permit photography of remains for religious reasons.
The laws against foreigners visiting sky burial sites, as well as
photography there are both Chinese and local Tibetan laws, as well as
religious laws of the property on which these burials are held. The Drigung
Kagyu monasteries, where these sky burials are performed, do not permit
photography of burials. They can be contacted at Drigung
Kagyu
[10].
Further information on governmental and regional law can be found in this book Multiculturalism in Asia [11], and these articles Tibetan sky burial [12] and Sky burials [13].
These photos are in violation of privacy, legality, decency, and consent.
These photos are also in violation of governmental laws of China intended to protect the traditional ceremonies, national and provincial laws of Tibet, cultural standards, and religious laws, and monastic laws, of the private property of where these were taken, and the family and deceased individual.
Please also include clear policy guidelines about photography of deceased persons.
- AthenaO ( talk) 16:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Further, the Tibetan national laws also forbid photography of these ceremonies.
Apart from the illegality of the photos,
an issue raised is of consent of deceased persons.
The deceased person in these photos did not give consent to have these photos taken.
What is the policy regarding deceased people, in private places, who do not give consent to have photos taken or published?
- AthenaO ( talk) 09:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
A new policy not needed, but an essay might be appropriate. If people follow the suggestions in the essay, it can become a guideline. Remember, on Wikipedia, guidelines and policies evolve out of consensus behavior. With the exception of policies required by law, which WP:OFFICE will inform us of if necessary, community consensus comes before policies and guidelines.
Please write up an essay describing "polite" image-use behavior for "private" images. Separately, write up an essay giving guidance on using images that were taken in violation of the law for other than trademark/copyright reasons but which are not themselves against US law to host on Wikipedia. Trademarks and copyrights are covered elsewhere in policy, and of course images which are criminal offenses to possess or use on web sites like child pornography are either covered by policy or so obvious they don't need a policy.
Personally, I would endorse an essay that said something along the lines of "Using photographs which would put Wikipedia in legal jeopardy is discouraged and may be subject to WP:OFFICE actions, but the burden of proof is on the person claiming the image is in fact legally risky. Such photographs may be used in a similar manner as fair-use copyright photographs while the legal status remains uncertain, subject to overrule by community consensus or office action for each image used. Discussion of the use of such images on a case-by-case basis is strongly encouraged." and "Using photographs where subject of the photograph or, for objects, events, places, and non-living persons, the owners or responsible parties have made it clear their expressed desire that the object, event, place, or non-living person not be photographed under any circumstance whatsoever is generally discouraged. Such images may be used when necessary to illustrate an article, subject to overrule by community consensus for each image used. Discussion of each such image is strongly encouraged to determine a community consensus." I would not endorse this as a guideline unless it became a consensus first.
Before putting it up as an essay, put it up as a user essay first and put a link to it here and on Wikipedia talk:Images soliciting opinions. If you get a few endorsements and no oppositions, or a lot of endorsements and a few oppositions, move it to Wikipedia: space as a normal essay. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 20:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I have initiated a discussion on this proposed new policy. TerriersFan ( talk) 20:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Discussion has already been closed as "no." davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 20:22, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I have searched and could not find a guideline discussing optimal page download times for Wikipedias target audiences. Does such a guideline exist? Miami33139 ( talk) 22:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Quoting from WT:Layout#Sister links:
I don't have a position, other than wanting the guideline to be stable, and this and similar questions have been argued for a while now. Any opinions? - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 03:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently involved in a slow-burning edit war with Planth ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who's repeatedly trying to reintroduce an unsourced section to the article Demographics of Japan, which came to my attention when an IP user removed it (with a rather confusing edit summary - my guess is they're not a native speaker). Since then, the only response I've gotten from Planth has been repeated "undo"s, despite my having attempted to contact him/her on the article talk page and his/her own talk page.
What's the appropriate response to a situation like this? Most of the dispute resolution systems in place assume that both sides are being communicative, which doesn't appear to be the case here. Trying to goad the other user into a 3RR violation is a pretty obviously icky way of getting their attention, and a full RFC seems like overkill at this point, so I'm not sure what the right approach is.
Any thoughts? Advice? Zetawoof( ζ) 12:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
The article Zefram Cochrane says:
I have no knowledge of this person but a reference to the the name made me look it up. I was surprised at the claims made and can only assume it is some science fiction stuff that has found its way into the encyclopedia. Perhaps it is meant to be a joke.
I can't see any explanation of why the article uses the past tense to refer to the future. I can only assume that this is a fictional article falsely protraying itself as fact. If the intention is to deceive the reader, it is an abuse of an encyclopedia. If there is no intention to deceive, then naive readers like me need a truthful explanation. Are there other such articles? If so, what is Wikipedia policy on such issues? Lightmouse ( talk) 05:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
What are the accepted notability guidelines for which Firefox extensions deserve articles? There appear to be quite a few that lack any external citation or independent claim of notability. Wikipedia:Notability (software) is defunct, so do we just go by strict notability guidelines? Thoughts? -- ZimZalaBim talk 02:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The following sentence was recently added to WP:MOS#IMAGES: "Images, including math-mode equations, should generally include alt text that describes the image for visually impaired readers." We could really use more discussion over at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#ALT text. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 16:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
According to Help:Merging and moving pages#Performing the merger, the source article must be recorded in the edit summary to comply with the GFDL. This requirement is frequently ignored in practice. Does it really carry any weight or is it more of a recommendation?
I have started a discussion at Help talk:Merging and moving pages#Merge edit summaries. Flatscan ( talk) 04:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I sometimes forget this myself, but failure to mention the origin of a block of copy-pasted text indeed violates the GFDL. This is a nightmare especially for anyone wishing to mirror part of Wikipedia. It is in practice impossible to legally re-destribute Wikipedia in any other form than as the full database, including all edit histories. This is ignored in practice, I have yet to see any Wikipedia mirror that gives me credit for the pieces I authored. This is strictly illegal, but I doubt anyone is going to go to court over it. -- dab (𒁳) 15:23, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
If anyone can edit the content of this "encyclopedia", then the accuracy of its content is in question and cannot be reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.230.1 ( talk) 05:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines#Anonymous-IP_address_warning_deletions is a new discussion to revisit the current wording of Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#User_talk_pages:
Users may freely remove comments from their own talk pages, though archiving is preferred. They may also remove some content in archiving. The removal of a warning is taken as evidence that the warning has been read by the user. This specifically includes both registered and anonymous users.
the bold part of which was added last April 19. This was previously discussed on WP:AN/I and Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines on March 9, here and here.
There are merits to allowing IP addresses to blank "their" talk pages and merits to not allowing it.
Please participate in the current discussion.
davidwr/(
talk)/(
contribs)/(
e-mail) 19:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: There is a letter allowing use of this image on Wikipedia. Soundvisions1 ( talk) 14:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I am amused by User:Megapixie's edit here, as he has now removed the exact example used in the policy WP:NFC#Unacceptable use Images # 4 to illustrate when fair-use is allowed, with the edit summary ""Raising the flag" is NOT fair use in this context - per Policy. Replacing with another suitable image." This must be something of a record in the annals of policy creep. Johnbod ( talk) 22:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content#Severe_overuse_problem, a debate has erupted regarding the use of sports teams logos.
Crux of the argument: Should team logos be used on all articles having to do with a team, such as season, rivalry, and championship articles, or should they be limited to the specific article about the team and an article about the team's logos (if such exists).
Not surprisingly, the debate has spun out of control, and is running in circles. Enjoy. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 14:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
and
There is a problem distinguishing titles from subtitles in articles, which adds a element of confusion. Subtitles should be noticeably less dominant on a page, but what is now being used inverts that. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 13:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there an existing policy that Wikipedia should have internal consistency?
By this I mean that all articles referring to a particular topic should have the same, or similar definition/description of that topic, and that Wikipedia should not contradict itself.
If it does not exist, would such a policy be useful, or even possible? Riversider2008 ( talk) 17:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
{{Contradict-other|Name of article it contradicts}}
to both articles and outline your concerns at the talk page. This would, at least, draw the attention of editors of one article to the other.
CIreland (
talk) 06:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The Not a ballot template clearly states that deletion decisions are made on the merits of the arguments.
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}} ; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
canvassed|username}} ; accounts blocked for
sockpuppetry: {{subst:
csm|username}} or {{subst:
csp|username}} . |
And yet in the Deletion review we find Admins saying the exact opposite: "It is not a competitive debate that is "won" or "lost" on the strength of arguments." and "I'm not aware that it's called a debate." Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 November 19#Allele
Given the enormous waste of time and energy that vexatious deletions cause, the Not a ballot should be more publicized and all admins reminded of it. Creation is hard work. Deletion is too easy. Delaszk ( talk) 20:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC) (uncivil comments removed) Delaszk ( talk) 15:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
So let me get this straight - DRV worked exactly as it's supposed to and the article in question, Allele (band), has been restored, yet Delaszk is here complaining of "deletion crazed admins" with their "stupid comments" who "are ruining Wikipedia"?? Let me assure all of you: What is ruining Wikipedia is a complete lack of respect for WP:CIVIL that is driving many long-time contributors away. Why we continue to tolerate this kind of behaviour I honestly have no idea. — Satori Son 20:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Stuff like this always makes me smile. People "outside" Wikipedia routinely mock the amount of crud, cruft and fanwankery we carry, to the point that it has become something of a running joke. It's only within Wikipedia that people seriously argue against removing such articles. (As it happens I tend to favour retention, I just don't believe in the Great Evil Plot). CIreland ( talk) 21:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Not meaning to belittle Satori's rather sweeping generalization, but as a reasonably conscientious contributor of several years' standing (does that make me a sufficiently longtime contributor?), if I were asked to name the one major source of frustration that has come close to making me feel like leaving, it is the ease with which some editors "contribute" by constantly removing information that is not triple ironclad enough. Anyone thinking I'm just whining is cordially invited to check out my recently archived request for comment which was mostly ignored, apparently largely because it challenged people's attention span, so I'm not going to reiterate all of it. Those who feel it would be intellectually honest to revisit the argument are welcome to find it in the archives. For those who feel it's all about soundbites anyway, I don't think I can better Delaszk: "Creation is hard work. Deletion is too easy." If that seems like an uncivil observation to some, all I can say is that perfunctorily junking whole sections that other contributors have worked on for weeks does not strike me as the epitome of courtesy either. Please note I am not commenting about the specific article that started this discussion but about the general unresolved issue I believe it has raised. Nude Amazon ( talk) 05:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
AFDs like this will end up at DRV either way. If an admin closes the debate against the majority, it'll be DRVd for going against consensus, and if an admin closes the debate against the arguments that are considered "stronger" for some reason, it'll be DRVd because "AFD is not a vote". All this discussion and argument is going to do is discourage people from closing AFDs, which is counterproductive. Stifle ( talk) 09:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)