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I have had very limited success in editing the policy-like wording in a document that is merely a guideline Wikipedia:Reliable_sources. I did remove some of the "must nots" and "must nevers" which is policy language, and substitute "should nots", however, User:SlimVirgin has reverted other edits I have made to this guideline, claiming they violate wikipedia policy, but refusing to cite the policies. I requested mediation and she refused. I think the Reliable Sources guideline is faulty on the points of citing blogs, usenet postings, and so-called "personal" websites. There are several other editors who feel similarly. We need some process to revise this guideline. Some help would be appreciated. -- Fahrenheit451 21:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Farenheit451, the policy in question here is, in fact WP:V, one of our three critical content policies, and one which WP:RS supports. You can't have the guideline contradicting the policy it supports, which is what your changes were doing, and which was explained to you. Jayjg (talk) 19:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
If that be the case, then both WP:V and WP:NOR need to be revised. -- Fahrenheit451 00:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
In WP:V, self-published sources. One can self-publish for financial reasons because the cut publishers demand is huge. They can also make unreasonable demands for length of content which would exclude a work from outside publication. I can tell you about this having submitted a manuscript to a publisher and got back a contract that demanded ridiculous margins and length of book. There was little disagreement on editorial content, but an impasse on who makes how much and length. Whoever wrote that section needs a reality check. On the WP:NOR policy, I object to this section: "It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;" All encyclopedias analyse to some degree. That is not research. I would agree with the synthesis concept. Research and analysis are different bodies of data. -- Fahrenheit451 00:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Analysis may be used in research, but it is not research, which is, according to Oxford: "The systematic investigation into and study of materials, sources, etc. in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions." Analyse is: "Examine in detail the consitution or structure of."-- Fahrenheit451 23:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you are again engaging in personal attacks which is a violation of wikipedia policy. That is rude and belligerent. You are presuming a great deal about my views without communicating enough to ascertain them. I agree that self-published sources should be treated with caution. If one understands the libel statute, it easy Not to libel another party. This does not require a review by a solicitor. And even they make mistakes. I have seen many. It is not uncommon for periodicals and newspapers to be sued for libel or publish incorrect information. I would agree with you that it is more likely a website presenting views by one person could contain faulty information. My point is that all should not be condemned because some should be. And I ask you, if you cannot have a discussion with me without engaging in ad hominem attacks, then please excuse yourself from discussions with me. -- Fahrenheit451 23:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I've started a discussion about changing the conventions for category names to allow for not spelling out acronyms in all cases at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (categories)#Abbreviations: to expand or not to expand?. -- JeffW 21:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm having trouble finding what Wikipedia policy disallows/discourages bias from being introduced by covering a topic more than it deserves based on its importance relative to the rest of the article. For instance, if a city has had problems with water quality and that's both verifiable and relevant, what's to stop somebody from filling 2/3 of the article with cited information about how terrible the water quality was, and aggressively defending that information's importance? (It's not a fringe viewpoint; it's simply an accepted fact being vastly over-emphasized.) It clearly introduces a bias to over-emphasize a negative point like that (or a positive one, for that matter), so it seems like something the NPOV policy should cover, but when people make the mistake of doing this, I'm not sure where to point them to. (crossposted at WP:NPOV talk) – Tifego (t) 08:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This has long been considered to be covered by the NPOV policy section on undue weight, but there now is a proposal and example wording that everyone so far on the talk page believe accurately summarizes how the policy should cover this. Please see WT:NPOV. - Taxman Talk 14:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Any comments on Wikipedia:No Polarising Policies would be appreciated. I think Wikipedia:Consensus doesn't put enough emphasis on the point made there. - Drrngrvy 16:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
An editor has recently taken it upon himself to begin a campaign to remove references to many arabic-titled articles (mostly connected with islamic subjects) from en.wikipedia, claiming they are "POV forks". In the course of this effort, he has recently added a " Translation" section to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles) instructing editors to that effect. It would seem that the result of adopting his additional guidelines will be that articles such as Allah and Isa will tend to be bypassed by wikipedia readers and editors alike, providing justification for their eventual deletion or merging (as subsidiary material, based on his contention that the abrahamic religions should be referred to in chronological order of their "founding", regardless of any claims that Islam predates Muhammad for example), as per Jibril (merged into Gabriel after a two-day "merge discussion period" during which no discussion took place; see Talk:Jibril) into articles with principally jewish or christian content. Other editors might like to comment on this development. — JEREMY 10:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I've written up a policy proposal for reforming the use of Wikipedia:Shortcuts, which seem overly arcane and confusing to newcomers. The proposal lets editors keep typing similar abbreviations, but has software convert the abbreviations into fuller text before showing them to readers.
Intead of typing, say, [[WP:NOR]], you'd type {{WP:NOR}}, which would display a template of that name. The template would contain nothing but a reader-friendly link to the page: Wikipedia:No original research, for example, or No original research (a Wikipedia policy).
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tlogmer ( talk • contribs) .
I don't mean to advertise, but... Oh, ok. It is an advertisment. I have designed a new policy on User:Misza13/Userbox Gallery Poll. It is still under construction, but to make it widely acceptable, it needs the community's input. Please make yourself familiar with it, perhaps visit it's talk page and make comments that will help me improve it before it is officially brought up for voting. Thank you, Misza 13 T C 20:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a current discussion at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approvals#Userboxbot regarding:
During the recent Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Cyde, he specifically stated that he was no longer working in the Userbox area. "Eventually I realized I was spending way too much time arguing over userboxes and I self-imposed a userbox wikibreak on myself. I made a conscious decision to get back to writing the encyclopedia."
Several (many?) folks endorsed based on that implied promise. A few others wisely thought it would be best to wait and see.
Looking at his deletion log, he began deleting userboxes the very day he was approved as an administrator, with the edit comment: I'm going to go out on a limb here and delete this userbox. Even though I said I wouldn't. Sorry.
In several recent cases, he has deleted (not subst and deleted), userboxen that have survived Templates for Deletion, in every case with majority of keep!
That means the debate moves to Wikipedia:Deletion review/Userbox debates, where very few even know about the discussion....
Yesterday, he deleted userboxes that had survived both TfD and DRVU in the past. At what point would it be appropriate to ask that administrator status be revoked because of disingenuity in his elevation, and failing to conform to community processes? And how would one go about that?
Folks will please note (by looking at my User page) that I don't have a dog in this userbox fight. But I'm tired of certain administrators failing to adhere to the limited and meager processes that exist.
Except you do have a dog in this "fight", Stranger. -- Cyde Weys 02:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
It was enlightening to me to see that this comment has been expressly declared by three members of the Arbitration Committee to a glaring example of severe incivility justifying Wikipedia discipline:
object to newbie-biting; slamming an article-in-progress one minute after a new user begins work is grossly uncivil. Give him a chance.
Discuss among yourselves. Monicasdude 21:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
phrase is used in opposition to that position, it's considered uncivil. And nothing in this pattern should give anyone pause? Monicasdude 15:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
After reading WP:EL I'm still not sure if it's OK to give an External link directly to a PDF. I've come acrose a number of external links on the wiki which link direcly to a PDF. Can someone who understands this policy clarify? Shlomke Shlomke 20:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
This may sound naive but I am a little confused about the true purpose of Wikipedia. I can see that you do not want to include collections of external links or Internet directories, collections of internal links, collections of public domain or other source material or collections of photographs or media files. I can also see that you discourage inclusion of or links to primary resources. Isn't the ability to link to other sites and to primary resources what makes the internet such a valuable tool? Are you trying to create some kind of secular knowledge network, with minimal reference to outside resources? As far as I can see this means: a) While you may cover a broad range of topics, it is difficult to reach depth with any one topic and; b) The material is completely fallible- it seems to be publishing simply "what readers think they know about a subject"- a little concerning. I am not meaning to criticise the site, merely wanting to understand it a little more. If anyone can help me, please do.
Thanks.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.68.32 ( talk • contribs)
See also comments at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Purpose of Wikipedia
ged -- what is discouraged are articles that consist of almost nothing but links, and we try to avoid links that amount to advertising. For one thing, much of the material on the web is simply not vetted enough to qualify as reliable. For another, there is a lot of material not on the web (see FUTON bias) that is often important to an understanding of a particular the subject.
"NOTE: Most teachers and professionals do not consider it appropriate to use tertiary sources such as encyclopedias as a sole source for any information. Wikipedia articles should be used for background information, and as a starting point for further research.
As with any community-built reference, there is a possibility for error in Wikipedia content — please check your facts against multiple sources and read our disclaimers for more information. "
There's been a gradual on-again, off-again edit war going on on my user page over my addition of that page to Category:1989 births. I don't see any reason why users can't be added to such categories, but others insist that this is so. Lar, ever the calm negotiator, suggested that I post here and find out, once and for all. — Gordon P. Hemsley→ ✉ 04:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
A new proposed guideline, Wikipedia:Expert editors, has been drafted and is awaiting comments. -- EngineerScotty 03:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The Historical Jesus vs. Jesus Myth Wars & Acharya S
http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S
I understand Wikipedia has been altering some aspects of its policies to enable it to be a more reliable, professional encyclopedia, and I have seen a few articles that reflect this. (I heard the interview on NPR with the head editor/manager... I was impressed by his visions and goals for Wikipedia)
THEN, today, when researching the subject of "Historical Jesus" at various places on the net, I encountered numerous Flame Wars ...whole websites and blogs dedicated to slandering individuals and authors in the "HJ" (Historical Jesus) camp... and other sites denigrating certain authors in the "Jesus Myth" (Jesus didn't exist) camp. Having made no conclusions of my own on this subject, I found the war between these participants, interesting, yet sophomoric... the goal apparently to destroy the reputations, and whole careers, of opposing players... including tactics like digging into private information and publishing it on the net.
AND I was amazed and greatly disappointed when the links ultimately lead me to WIKIPEDIA
How can you allow Wikipedia to be a battlefield for personal feuds?
While I may be skeptical of the above author's hypotheses in the subject of historical Jesus, the author is legitimate, nonetheless. The article may fit into the catagory of a book review (sort of), and while it is not an obvious “rant”, it is certainly not merely unbaised information about the above author.
I am not defending the author, Acharya S, nor her work ... I am complaining that this kind of game is allowed on Wikipedia
So, what's the word, village pump? (Or, if you prefer, the village pump, villag pump, villiage pump, De Kroeg, etc. :)) Are cross-namespace redirects (specifically from article-space to Wikipedia:-space) against policy or not? - Silence 23:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I just dealt with all of the cross-namespace redirects listed here, are there any others you guys happen to know about? -- Cyde Weys 23:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify this before I get asked, the only acceptable cross-namespace redirects have to begin with WP: (for project pages) and WT: (for project talk pages). Obviously having something like No personal attacks that redirects into project space is entirely unacceptable and directly conflicts with our encyclopedic mission. Plus, it breaks mirrors, which mirror the articles but not the project space pages. -- Cyde Weys 23:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the best place to raise it, but there is a problem with some tags, specifically merge tags, in so far as they don't appear to be time limited. I keep coming across articles which have merge tags attached and have done for months. No-one has supported the merger. Sometimes no-one has even commented on it, or the last comment was months ago. But the poser of the tag stands guard on it, and woe betide anyone who dares move it. They will be accused of censorship and everything bar starting the Black Death.
One user has been guarding his beloved merge tag for nearly a year now. No-one had commented on it, and it appears to be just a bit of ego on his behalf (he is pissed off that another article, in passing, dares mention the topic he is a self-proclaimed expert on — he has written the "definitive" (his words) article on the topic on the topic and is annoyed that someone else dare write about it somewhere else!. He wants them merged (ie, his version kept and the other passing mention dumped) and stands guard over his merge tag like Merlin.
Today I took a merge tag off another article. It was debated (slightly) in February and had no support. It has just been sitting there ever since. I know from experience of the author of the merge tag he will go ballistic when he sees it removed (its the same story. Author has his own "pet" article and does not like the fact that, in passing, the topic is mentioned in summary somewhere else. He is particularly peeved that he can't POV the second article the way, though sheer attrition, he has been able to POV his 'own' version. So he has the merge tag in theory to merge them, in reality to get stuff from one article dumped, leaving his article as the definitive version on Wikipedia).
Its almost funny seeing these battles. The problem is that the merge tag is not being used in many cases for genuine mergers but as part of one author's attempts in effect to copyright a topic and ensure that no-one else dares mentions it outside his or her pet article. Even when no-one agrees they still stand guard over the merge tag and threaten fire and brimstone on anyone daring to remove the merge tag. The tags should be time-limited, with say a decision within 14 days, or 7 days, of their inclusion in an article, and a ban on they being imposed over and over again on the same article by the same user. As of now the merge tag is being grossly abused and seems to reflect not so much a real need to merger but someone's ego being annoyed that someone else dared write on 'their' topic, even in two or three lines, elsewhere. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 15:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Mgekelly has unfairly dismissed my as a vandal becuae I listed templates for deletion just becuase they are highly offensive. Does this mean that if I continue to do so, or even place a vote to delete it just because of my morals, I really do desearve more respect. He can't even beleive that I do not (automatcialy or not) know today's date, it is possible to forget it, or what 'frivolous' means. Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian):-(
I'm surprised that wikipedia does not base its contents on even international (drug) laws. I happen to see templates that claim a user to transgress such laws as immoral (why are they less common on wikipedia than in the real world, that is my expierience (I'm middle class Australian)). Why should I be blocked form editing for a perfectly reasonable TFD nomination? How unfair! Mgekelly finds it hard to believe that I do not (automaticaly or not) know today's date. It is possible to forget it. And no one has yet told me what 'frivolous' means. Help! Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian):-(
There is much inconsistency in policy about whom to include in ethnic groups. I propose a set of rules.
People should only be included if one of the following applies:
1. There is clear and explicit evidence that they, or both their parents ("born to Italian-American parents"), or their family ("from an Italian-American family") are of that ethnic group.
2. If they are described as say half-Italian, they should be listed with a note. If they are described as say Irish-German, they should be listed under both headings with a note. (this refers to ethnicity, not nationality, i.e. "Irish-German" meaning, say, a "List of German-Americans", not a "List of Germans")
3. There is clear and explicit evidence that one parent is of that group, and it should be noted in the list that it is only one parent.
4. If there is only some ethnic ancestry (i.e. less than a parent), proof has to be shown that the person identified with that group above others or singled it out, such as Robert DeNiro for Italian Americans. The proof should be explicit in that the person self-identified, and persons listed as such should be the exception, not the majority
5. As Sikhs and Jews are also religious groups, an exception is needed for converts to these religions, who would be explicitly noted.
6. Consideration is needed of the treatment of adopted people.
It is suggested that where possible the source to confirm the person's ethnicity should be cited in the format: "Name" - "Number citation" - "Quote, directly from the person or from the source" (citations from offline would be listed after the quote). See List of Catholic American entertainers for examples of this citation method. This would not work where the reference is to a list, such as a list of Italian American Oscar winners.
In the manner of inclusion, the rules apply equally to all lists of ethnic groups. We shouldn't apply different rules to one particular ethnic group (i.e. and as a result exclude someone from the list who fits the above criteria) and not treat it equally with other groups is discrimination.
This policy should also apply to ethnicity categories, which need to be consistent with the lists, and help to ensure that the maximum of categories a person could be listed in would normally be two.
Newport 10:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the proposal above is roughly correct. For citation, I highly recommend the cite.php mechanism, especially because in many cases there will be many people cited to a single source. And I don't want to see the main body of a list littered with quotations. Put 'em in the notes. The main body should just be the names, superscripts linking to footnotes, and a qualifying statement, if needed (e.g. for Fiorello LaGuardia, in a list of Jewish people "father was Italian" and in a list of Italians "mother was Jewish").
I don't totally agree with "To apply different rules to one particular ethnic group and not treat it equally with other groups is discrimination":
When this discussion "plays out" and is to be archived, could someone please copy it to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic Groups? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 15:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Sheesh! What's next, creating lists of Mulattos, Quadroons and Octoroons? I think there's something obsessive about this trying to assign lables to people that don't really fit in your little categories. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 02:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the lists are problematic BUT they do serve a research purpose in that they can be the starting point of detailed research and very useful - I do beleive that ethnic lists should rely on 2 criteria - 1 - Documented Ancestry and 2. Individual's opinion or how they see themselves. However, I'm not sure what is right - part of me thinks if it is good enough for a Government to recognise an individual through descent as the irish Government does back to if an individual can proove descent from an Irish Parent, grandparent or a great grandparent they are entitled to Irish Citizenship, so perhaps that should be the standard practice for this list and other similar ones that are based on ethnicity. It would be more accurate in that the descent issue is easier to substantiate through research than an individual's personal identification e.g. genealogy, family history and background is far more likely to be detailed in biographies where as an individual’s identification is harder to pin down as it can appear in a variety of sources usually not well publicised or promoted and be more localised that are far more difficult to find; such as newspaper articles, interviews, reviews etc. that are not on the net or readily available and lets face it nowadays most people use the net to source. I do believe also that some contribution to Irish American culture or American culture in general should be considered. Believe me I think what you are doing is a tremendous undertaking and you are very brave to do it simply because your hard work can be (ultimately) trashed by someone who has a different opinion or is less dedicated to verification and simply because of their own limited view decides that someone doesn't belong on the list. I hate to keep harping on the one family but Garland's family is a perfect example of my point. She certainly belongs in the main category of irish Americans under actors because during her heyday she contributed to Irish American Culture through Irish themed songs that were on every jukebox in every Irish Pub through the 1970s, she was a regular guest on fellow Irishman Bing Crosby's radio show during the 1950s singing many Irish songs with him and often referred to her self as Irish and also to her Irish maternal family, incidentally here is a good quote from the article that appeared in Irish America Magazine "She never lost her Celtic soul". However her daughters belong in the Distant section because that is appropriate for them in that they do have substatiated "Distant" Irish heritage and although may not promote it daily have referred to it on occasion and probably more than some entries on the main list. By example; how does one know Lorna Luft does not identity with being Irish? I live in Ireland and she has appeared in concert and on Television in Ireland many times over the years, she starred in the Dublin production of Follies, she lived here for a period and often visits, she has made reference to "the family's Irish charm", and other quotes about about her mother's Irish traits in her book Me and My Shadows, and in interviews in the USA, Ireland and the UK, she has appeared at Irish charity performances in New York with Irish entertainers and a famous photograph of her by Scuvello that appeared on the cover of Interview Magazine pictured her in a green sequined outfit holding a huge shamrock! She is first and foremost American but certainly has demonstrated an appreciation for her Irish heritage as well as that of her father who was of Russian/German Jewish decent but she is Episcopalian like her mother and sister but yet is listed in a wikipedia list as a "Jewish Female singer" should I delete her from that list? I don't think so the wider issue is that each list should require the editor to give a reason why the individual they are proposing should be on the list. Liza Minnelli is as much Irish as she is Italian in that she had only 1 Italian Grandparent and 1 Irish Grandparent and while she wasn't raised in either an "Italian or Irish " family environment she is aware of her heritage. She was quoted in an early London Times interview after Cabaret stating "I'm Italian, Irish and French" obviously choosing to omit Scottish as her "French" and Irish Grandmothers was also half Scottish. Since then she has appeared at many Italian and Irish American functions and commented on both nationalities but in reality prefers her French ancestry as that was the heritage that her father identified with. I have found that people generally identify more with their mother's nationality due to the family influence is usually stronger from teh mother's extended family. I think inclusion in the distant part of the list and perhaps some historic figures should solely be based on documental direct heritage. There is an article that appeared in the Irish Echo newspaper around 1991 where Liza attributes her determination and ability to laugh at herself to her Irish roots - but as I say these comments are very much "localised" and not widely available unless someone does extensive research. I have many articles, letters and other documents not available on the net that realate to many people's Irish connections and use them in my work but for the most part this material is hard to find unless the individuals have a lead or know where to look and it is rarely on the net. There is also the scientific reality that is Mitochondrial DNA that is passed from generation to generation unchanged from the female line - what this means is that an individual in America who had an Irish distant Great Grandmother would have the same mitochondrial DNA as that distant (female) relation, this has tremendous implications for health research and forensic identification. I am sorry to go on so much but as you can tell this is a subject that interests me very much. There is also something that we must take into consideration when talking about Irish American Culture that is fairly unique in how "loyal" individuals can be to it even if the connection goes back many generations and the current family name is not remotely Irish - this again is a fairly unique phenomenon more common among those with Irish roots. Research into this has stated that America, Canada and Australia all founded on waves of immigration offered a new life to these "tired and poor huddled masses yearning to be free" but in the case of the Irish leaving Ireland was not a choice but a necessity to survive and many regretted having to leave and many were angry over having to leave and I dare say many were glad to leave but ultimately this forced immigration did not sever the ties with home and generations of the same families continued to cross the ocean right up until recent times and this has kept the link open and to a degree fresh. Also the Famine Irish of the 1840s after only 2 generations in America became very influential and successful in the military, church, politics and show-business, combined with the world-wide popularity of St Patrick's Day celebrations particularly in America and the stereotypical images of the Irish that were for the most part flattering although some not so e.g. drinkers and fighters but overall this group of people managed to maintain a strong connection with their "motherland" whilst still remaining fiercely patriotic Americans. Ireland did not interfere with American identity that was to a degree formulated by Irish immigrants. Finally on entries like Arthur Shields, Barry Fitzgerald, Geraldine Fitzgerald and Maureen O'Sullivan it is highly likely that they became Naturalised American Citizens as did Maureen O'Hara for several reasons the least being that they made their living there, and that it was a very patriotic timein Hollywood and America and they were unable to go back to Ireland due to WWII - sorry to be so long winded and I am happy to asssit as I can. 86.12.253.32
Don't censor, explain. I think some of you might be forgetting that over the years this encyclopedia is bound to expand, not contract. People want more information, not less. Why try to remove names from a list? What's the hidden agenda? Why try to hide that someone had a Rwandan great-great-great-grandmother? This project is not a border patrol saying can come in and who can't. Readers want to know everything! If you merely want clarification as to WHY someone is on the list, fine, but that will tend to happen with or without a rule. Don't censor, explain. --Armenian-Irish-German-Austrian-Swedish-French-English-USAmerican-Canadian Korky Day 23:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
We don't need, nor can we have, special rules for lists of any ethnicity. All we need it Wikipedia policy. WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:RS. All Wikipedia articles must follow Wikipedia policy, we can't have special rules for these ones. Jayjg (talk) 05:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a curious misunderstanding by some editors of the point of this proposal. No change is suggested to any WP policy (although of course, since we proceed by consensus, any policy could be overturned if the community so wished). However, the policies are not enough. We need some supplementary guidelines and definitions. Consider Irish Americans. It violates no WP policy whether we have a list entitled
In the third case, we could put in the introduction whether it is restricted to people with one Irish parent, grandparent or great-grandparent. We could include every eligible person without comment, or add a note explaining the extent of their Irish ancestry. We could include everyone whose brother or sister (i.e. both parents the same) is on the list, even if there is no explicit source that they are of Irish-American ethnicity, because it is illogical to split siblings in that way. As long as we say what we are doing, this violates no policy. As SlimVirgin has said, "I agree that there should be consistent criteria for inclusion across all these lists"; we just need to decide what the criteria are. In the case of Jews, we can say that we will include someone without comment if we have a reference that his or her mother, or mother's mother, or mother's mother's mother, was Jewish, since such a person is Jewish in orthodox Jewish law, or we can say that a comment must be added. If anyone can think of a loose end not covered above, please say so. - Newport 11:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The only criterion that is compatible with Wikipedia's policies for lists of foos is that the person in question has been described as a "foo" in a reputable source. Deciding that having X ancestry or Y upbringing or Z parents makes you a foo is original research. Wikipedia restates what reputable sources have already stated. It does not make judgements. I consider the following policies absolutely nonnegotiable: WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. I suggest to Newport and Jack O'Lantern that they read them and make a genuine attempt to understand them.
As far as having "Lists of people with foo descent", this is fine, but must be restricted to those people who are described as having foo descent in the sources. You may not interpret other wordings as meaning that they have foo descent, any more than you can interpret them as meaning they are foos.
People ask, does this mean we should include people who are in our view wrongly described as a foo on lists of foos. The answer is yes, if there is no other, preferably better source that says otherwise. If you do not understand that, go and read WP:V once more. The key sentence is in bold. The criterion for entry in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. We do not decide what is true. We state what others can go see for themselves.
I should point out to Jack O'Lantern that "one drop" tests are absolutely unacceptable for an encyclopaedia of this nature. It doesn't matter whether you think this, that or other thing makes someone a foo. Unless you have a reputable source that states it, you may not include the person in a list of foos. This is exactly the same standard for all edits on Wikipedia. Write it on a piece of paper, Jack. Stick it on the wall above your PC. Wikipedia does not make judgements. To do so is original research, which is rightly forbidden here. Grace Note 23:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe this should have its own header/section but on a related matter to the ethnic lists, is their a standard biographical format for AMERICAN born, I won't even get into foreign born, folks, as far as "Jewishness". I see that 90% of the bios read,"joe blow, is an American tight rope walker. He was born to a Jewish family or is of Jewish decent or his father was a Polish Jew, ect ect." It seems that the term Jewish-American isn't appropriate. Thanks!
Backroomlaptop 06:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
A "Jewish mathematicians" category was created very recently, and a link thereto was added to the bottom of the pages of quite a few mathematicians. We might be best off not having such a list altogether - and certainly no bottom-of-the-page category. Some reasons are given in
Category_talk:Jewish_mathematicians
Of course, there would also be the advantage of avoiding yet another war on inclusion criteria, for what that is worth. What do you think? Hasdrubal 19:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a comment: categorizing people by ethnic groups is in itself controversial, and does not (and won't) have unanimous support. " Wikipedia is not a democracy" is written somewhere in the policies, to let know that decisions here should be taken not by majority, but by consensus - that's real democracy, but anyway. I just want to point out the debate that has taken place in January 2006 in the talk page of the French people article. Although the vast majority of French people and French Wikipedians who edited the article rightly insist that French people is not an ethnic group, because of a variety of historical and cultural reasons (without entering the debate, I'll just refer to Ernest Renan's classical conception of a nation, opposed to the German understanding of the Volk - which definitely is an ethnic group). However, (mostly) Canadians and US people have repeatedly insist on qualifying it as an ethnic group (due to their partial and uncomplete understanding of French culture and, more importantly, to North-American political stakes - they thus transfer a North-American debate about ethnicity to define the French people as an ethnic group, against the will and history of the French people! -- ignoring the first rule of ethnicity, that the people concerned must first define them as such!). This has led to wrongly include the French people on the list of ethnic groups. Any historian of nationalities and nationalism will agree that the two rival conceptions about the nation concerned this German/French opposition, and thus the French case is surely not alone. Controversies have therefore a long time before them. Lapaz 22:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
There's currently a debate about whether or not the {{ Policy}} or {{ Guideline}} templates should have "feel free to edit this ..." in them. Please see some of the older discussion at Template talk:Guideline, and let's centralize the discussion at Template talk:Policy. This was also posted at WP:RFC/POLICIES. — Locke Cole • t • c 21:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there a page where different standards for how foreign language words/names/articles/etc. are presented on Wikipedia? For example, someone has suggested on the talk page for Jopará that the article be retitled Jopara, without the accent. English speakers would most likely encounter the word/concept in a Spanish context, in which case the correct spelling would include the accent. Strictly speaking, however, the word comes from Guarani (though it would be used in both Spanish and Guarani), and according to Guarani rules, there wouldn't be an accent. zafiroblue05 | Talk 23:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
There ought to be a systematic policy of putting in redirects whenever there is any accent or diacritical in the article title. Otherwise, it makes things much harder for English-speaking people looking for articles. - Runcorn 19:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi
I'm a part of a research network funded by the EU whose mission is to: "... leverage added-value from existing work through interaction and to use this to encourage further contributions from new participants. A key objective of the network is to foster interaction between all the many different scientific sectors involved in this multi-disciplinary area and to help create truly inter-disciplinary perspectives." OK, blah blah blah, but the point is we have funding to create something which is publicly understandable about a subdiscipline of cognitive science. This would of course respect the no original research rules, but rather create a summary of existing published pratice that other members of the field could freely expand upon.
I've been looking at and playing with wikipedia for about 6 months now and I'm convinced it could support this kind of endeavour and that this would be well within its mission. I expect to make a portal. But the one question is that the funding agency wants to be acknowledged. There are many pages with acknowledgements of original sources at the bottom (e.g. EB 1911 or whatever). Would it be OK to cite people who paid other people while they were typing in content to wikipedia?
Thanks,
-- Joanna Bryson 10:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they are aware of that and not sure whether to go with this model. I think it is really an interesting question --- if we do go forwards and embrace wikipedia as a scientific tool supporting research then it will have an impact on the culture I think. And on the mission. Most encyclopedias don't document the creation of a discipline, for example. On the other hand, most don't have a "current events" category.
Maybe we should make an acknowledgement template which points out that funders are acknowledged on the talk page from the main page. I like your suggestion other than that -- I do think it would be nice to have a easily reinserted direction arrow. Also, note that eventually the funding notice (like the EB ref) probably should get deleted when it no longer represents the majority of the content. Funders don't get acknowledged on papers that cite funded research, just the original paper. We would also have an accompanying traditional publication for the "archival" version. -- Joanna Bryson 17:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Funders in academic papers are quite used to having just very small acks in footnotes, so for academics its no culture shock. What is much more a problem for objectivity is when the funder isn't acknowledged so you don't know what kind of bias may be in the research. But I did think it might be surprising / confusing to a lot of less-academic wikipedians, which is why I was looking for input. -- Joanna Bryson 20:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
That's very interesting. How about this:
This makes sense to me because the history is the only thing that's really permanent, and it seems to be minimally disruptive. Am I on the right track?-- Joanna Bryson 07:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that's a brilliant idea, I will shop that by the funders involved. Do you think I should still also send this to the mailing list? Do you think someone should make a policy page about this? I guess I need to do more reading about policy is made -- it's certainly not concensus yet. -- Joanna Bryson 13:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Copyrights "Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, with no Front-Cover Texts, and with no Back-Cover Texts."
Alternately, whenever someone adds content to Wikipedia, it says underneath "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL."
The issue is that the people are agreeing to release their entries under the full GPL GFDL while the Copyrights page says that Wikipedia texts are available under a restricted version of the GFDL, .
To further muddy the waters, the release statement links to the Copyright page (which includes the information that a restricted version of the GFDL is used) but in a different context ie. in the "do not violate copyright" context rather than the "this is the licence you're releasing under" context, making it arguably not required/expected reading before release like the GFDL link. Irrevenant 02:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, GFDL is by no way the same as "full GPL". Is that perhaps the origin of your misunderstanding (in fact I don't understand what you misunderstand... the wording you use to explain your alleged problem are anyway self-contradictory - that doesn't help others to understand what you think is going wrong)? Note also that both GPL and GFDL currently use the copyright mechanism. Without copyright... no GPL, nor GFDL. And that's also a copyright you're not allowed to violate when adding content to wikipedia. Copyrights of GFDL'ed or GPL'ed content can be violated when adding them to wikipedia (typically, e.g., by not mentioning the source of such copylefted sources, or other abuses of the license conditions of the original source). Wikipedia's copyright conditions include not to allow invariant sections et.al. to be imported in wikipedia (which is Wikipedia's copyright conditions). You have a problem with that? In that case: don't contribute. The copyright terms are explained in wikipedia:copyrights, which is linked from every content page, including in edit mode (so never say of a wikipedia content page that it doesn't link to its copyright terms, or that different pages link to different copyright conditions). Also, if the following would have been your problem: "full GFDL" implies that the publisher of the source indicates if there are invariant sections et. al.: "full GFDL" assumes there to be none of such sections if not mentioned... adding invariant sections etc. is a restriction of the full GFDL conditions. -- Francis Schonken 12:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
If the Modified Version includes new front-matter sections or appendices that qualify as Secondary Sections and contain no material copied from the Document, you may at your option designate some or all of these sections as invariant.
Okay, let me take a shot at this. I'm not a GFDL expert, but from reading most everything (though skimming a lot), I think the source of the confusing lies in this passage: ""Permission is granted to copy... with no Invariant Sections, with no Front-Cover Texts, and with no Back-Cover Texts." What I think might be the case from Mr. Schonken's position so far is that the "with no..." clause modifies what may be copied from Wikipedia, not what the copier may create themselves. So Irrevenant is concerned that the passage is forbidding the addition of invariant sections, front-cover texts, and back-cover texts, while what the passage is really saying is that no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts may be copied from Wikipedia.
Is this right? If so, the text for that notice that is recommended by the GFDL is really confusing, because Irreverant's reading is what I got from it too. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
There's more to it. The standard GFDL/copyright statement (which indeed might confuse if not reading the whole of the GFDL text, which is also legalese, but blame RMS/ FSF for that),
[...] Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. [...]
ALSO implies that at no point in time there could be found Invariant Sections or Cover Texts in Wikipedia's content. While, if there would be Invariant Sections or Cover Texts in Wikipedia, the formulation would need to be different, still according to Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License#How to use this License for your documents:
So you'd have to keep lists of these types of sections, which Wikipedia doesn't do currently. And certainly no copies of these lists are included in the copyright statement.
The problem is, that this also implies (as long as wikipedia keeps to the No Invariant Sections/No Cover Texts copyright statement) no (other) GFDL documents containing Invariant Sections or Cover Texts can be added to wikipedia, while Invariant Sections or Cover Texts remain Invariant Sections or Cover Texts when joined in another document. The only possibility (but then you'd need to be copyright owner of these documents or at least you'd need express permission by the copyright owner to do that) is to copy the text of such Invariant Sections or Cover Texts in Wikipedia agreeing that they lose their statute of being Invariant Sections or Cover Texts, while Wikipedia has no means to protect that statute ("invariant" means that that text should be "literally" kept in every copy of Wikipedia's content, and should be listed as such in the copyright statement; the same for Cover Texts – read the GFDL). Which doesn't happen. And that's why currently the copy of Wikipedia's content at the WikiMedia servers/databases can not accept "Invariant" or "Cover" content according to what these concepts mean in the GFDL.
Note that anybody can copy Wikipedia content, add Invariant or Cover matter according to the GFDL (section 4 et. al.) and distribute such modified versions. But that person can not impose on the Wikimedia Foundation to distribute such version that includes Invariant or Cover texts. Unless, when the GFDL/copyright statement of the WikiMedia projects would change so that the Invariant and Cover Texts are listed, and on top of that there would be a system with which to protect such content in designated places (won't happen in any foreseeable future afaik). -- Francis Schonken 15:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
From the deep, dark and dank quarters of the Wikimedia dungeon guards comes the practice of Ostracism. Read more at: A proposal to add Ostracism to the official list of Wikimedia philosophies -- PCE 14:48, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
50 Bad Things in Wikipedia
FYI, Zondor started inserting {{
Associations/Wikipedia Bad Things}} on the (currently) 36 37 40 (hard to keep up) guidelines/policies mentioned in that template. Good idea?
I don't have a clear opinion on the issue yet, apart from some technical issues with the template (it's TOO LONG, so crosses the lines under quite a few level ==...== section titles on most pages); also in general my first appreciation is too long: 36-link navigational templates don't work too good on pages that usually already have quite a few templates. That's a usability concern (if it doesn't help to get to the right guideline/policy quicker I suppose it's no real improvement, 36-item lists on pages that already have a few linked lists is assumably a usability horror in that sense).
Also, basicly it's a negative approach, listing "wrong" things on 36 policy/guideline pages, and not listing "things that can go splendid" in wikipedia, with links to pages with positive tips & tricks on how to achieve that.
Also several entries in the list might be questionable, e.g. "Weasel wording" and "Peacock terming" are currently listed - why not the more generic wikipedia:words to avoid?
But, as said, apart from these "first impressions" I don't have a real opinion yet. Something in this vein (but simpler then) might maybe work and might actually be a good idea. -- Francis Schonken 13:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
It's an interesting idea and I wouldn't want to delete it, but at the same time, it's not so important as to need including on dozens of policy pages. It's kind of pessimistic to organize all project space pages in terms of "Bad things". I think a "Policies" organizational template would be a lot more appropriate. -- Cyde Weys 18:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of a list that intermingles policy, guidelines, and essays indiscriminantly, and if it does it really shouldn't be on each policy page (which state that the contents of that page - templates included - is policy). I like the idea behind it, however - would it be more appropriate as a userspace-only template? Or changed into a Wikipedia:Essay page? Ziggurat 23:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
A better name could be Wrong Things. This is a subset of Bad Things which is quite broad. Why Good Things, another POV? Two wrongs don't make a right. Not all items should be displayed. We can make it so only policies are allowed to be included. -- Zondor 23:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
This template is pointless. Many things on the list are rephrased awkwardly to be negative, like "not being bold". What does making a huge list of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, all expressed confusingly in the negative, accomplish? We don't need a "Good Things" template either, as it'd just involve negating everything on that list. It doesn't need a different name, or different formatting, it just needs to be kept off of policy/guideline pages like any other large chunk of irrelevant text would be. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 02:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I still like it. It's just another way to teach people some important stuff about Wikipedia. I would like it better if it somehow led to constructive responses--how to avoid these problems, how to fix them, how to report them. But as a list it's not doing any harm. I agree it shouldn't be a template on all those pages though. · rodii · 03:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The point of it is to try and keep everyone above par. You can do almost anything you like on Wikipedia but as a minimum requirement you should not do wrong things or bad things. Admittedly, this is a POV stance on how Wikipedia should be for the better. -- Zondor 03:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Two ideas:
The Grid of Warnings is not a bad tool but there are some flaws. It trivialises the handling of Wrong Things. When one is given one of these warnings, it can come across as a personal attack, vandal insult, bad faith and causing incivility. You can have some comments to go along with it, but people don't want to be receiving any of these at all in the first place. Nonetheless, it is a useful tool for the most part. This tool is for a problem-reaction situation, a problem wrong thing is reacted to by slapping on a warning template. -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
50 Wrongs Things to do in Wikipedia is to prevent the problem from occurring altogether. Its purpose is not to tell you what you must do to fix it, it is trying to get you to understand a definite list of problems that exist in the Wikipedia world. The truth is out there. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth." The outcome from this will result in more Wikipedians achieving enlightenment (like the Buddhism concept). -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The critical reason why it is objected is because it is too intrusive coupled with a negative spin particularly as it is on the top of the page as a Disruption wrong thing. Would it be less intrusive if it was made flat and be put and the bottom of the page? Otherwise, would it be less intrusive if it was kept of the policy pages altogether? It needs a project page of its own anyway. It projects negativity and people don't like negativity and will try to minimise it. The NPOV policy page already has a list of its own without but any negativity. -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
While closing an AfD debate, I found this strange situation where an article ( Alex Campana) is completely (besides the See also section and the categories) included in another one ( Current Watford F.C. players). I think that either the first article should be substituted in the second or the second article should link (rather than include) the first, but I can't find anything in the policies. Opinions? - Liberatore( T) 13:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I quite agree. That's what cross-links are for. Runcorn 19:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I found this, which suggests this was a prefunctorily discussed temporary measure, and yet it's been a year and it's still not even documented. Is this weird, or am I just on crack? -Dan 07:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The discussion and the development of the proposal could benefit from some more input. Шизомби 06:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me if a "2nd notice" is inappropriate. However, the proposed guideline Wikipedia:Expert editors has been fleshed out after much comment and participation, and we are now formally inviting further comment on it's talk page before putting it up for a vote. Thanks~ -- EngineerScotty 21:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Forgive if this has been answered before. I have a chronic disease (multiple sclerosis). As most such diseases, for which neither cause nor cure has been identified, there are far flung research efforts. The Wikipedia article on ms is among the best I have read but...it ends far too soon. Could the site not serve a acute need by helping researchers from different disciplines/with differing theories, work together to map out where there are common or supportive findings through an iterative and corrective process. Example (a real one). An experimental drug is thought to impact on animal version of MS by inhibiting T-cell function/dampening the immune system. It is however, found to work by actally increasing a certain kind of immune cells known as "regulatory natural killer cells"...which proliferate in certain conditions...including pregnancy....while across the world...researchers are looking at hormone estriol, produced during pregnancy and believed to be reason that MS exacerbations normally decrease during third trimester. I'm not a scientist (obviously) jsut frustrated that these million points of reference don't seem to ever move closer together to illumination. I know wikipedia is an encyclopedia, but couldn't the MS pages be, not extended, but expanded by subpages to allow for this kind of review?
You couldn't have discussions in articles, because of WP:NOR, but it would be nice if Wikipedia could facilitate something good like this. Runcorn 19:50, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOT EVIL
Herostratus 18:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
(Anyway, this is a total rip-off of Google.) — Simetrical ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Lets say I am an author of an article, and I have submitted it to Wikipedia, thus agreeing to license it under the GFDL. Other people who use material need to credit Wikipedia, post the GFDL policy or link to it, etc.
But if I want to use my own article elsewhere, after I licensed it here, do I (as the author) need to also post all these notices? In other words, do I forfiet any usage rights of my work by submitting it to Wikipedia?
Also, if you release an image under the GFDL, you may modify the image and not release your changes under the GFDL. Then the unmodified image would be free, the modified one would be unfree. Again, you forfeit your right to prevent people from using your work in accordance with the GFDL, but not your right to use your own work other than in accordance with the GFDL or to allow others to use your work other than in accordance with the GFDL. — Simetrical ( talk • contribs) 22:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's 1970s section and references to the decade elsewhere are attracting adverse comment - there are several articles like this around - http://70struth.blogspot.com/2006/04/wikipedia-inaccurate-1970s-section.html . Please can contributors ensure that the 1970s section does not detract from the historical realities of that and other decades, and that all references to the 1970s elsewhere are justified and not just examples of the writer's own personal enthusiasm for the decade? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.123.54 ( talk • contribs)
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I have had very limited success in editing the policy-like wording in a document that is merely a guideline Wikipedia:Reliable_sources. I did remove some of the "must nots" and "must nevers" which is policy language, and substitute "should nots", however, User:SlimVirgin has reverted other edits I have made to this guideline, claiming they violate wikipedia policy, but refusing to cite the policies. I requested mediation and she refused. I think the Reliable Sources guideline is faulty on the points of citing blogs, usenet postings, and so-called "personal" websites. There are several other editors who feel similarly. We need some process to revise this guideline. Some help would be appreciated. -- Fahrenheit451 21:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Farenheit451, the policy in question here is, in fact WP:V, one of our three critical content policies, and one which WP:RS supports. You can't have the guideline contradicting the policy it supports, which is what your changes were doing, and which was explained to you. Jayjg (talk) 19:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
If that be the case, then both WP:V and WP:NOR need to be revised. -- Fahrenheit451 00:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
In WP:V, self-published sources. One can self-publish for financial reasons because the cut publishers demand is huge. They can also make unreasonable demands for length of content which would exclude a work from outside publication. I can tell you about this having submitted a manuscript to a publisher and got back a contract that demanded ridiculous margins and length of book. There was little disagreement on editorial content, but an impasse on who makes how much and length. Whoever wrote that section needs a reality check. On the WP:NOR policy, I object to this section: "It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;" All encyclopedias analyse to some degree. That is not research. I would agree with the synthesis concept. Research and analysis are different bodies of data. -- Fahrenheit451 00:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Analysis may be used in research, but it is not research, which is, according to Oxford: "The systematic investigation into and study of materials, sources, etc. in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions." Analyse is: "Examine in detail the consitution or structure of."-- Fahrenheit451 23:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you are again engaging in personal attacks which is a violation of wikipedia policy. That is rude and belligerent. You are presuming a great deal about my views without communicating enough to ascertain them. I agree that self-published sources should be treated with caution. If one understands the libel statute, it easy Not to libel another party. This does not require a review by a solicitor. And even they make mistakes. I have seen many. It is not uncommon for periodicals and newspapers to be sued for libel or publish incorrect information. I would agree with you that it is more likely a website presenting views by one person could contain faulty information. My point is that all should not be condemned because some should be. And I ask you, if you cannot have a discussion with me without engaging in ad hominem attacks, then please excuse yourself from discussions with me. -- Fahrenheit451 23:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I've started a discussion about changing the conventions for category names to allow for not spelling out acronyms in all cases at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (categories)#Abbreviations: to expand or not to expand?. -- JeffW 21:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm having trouble finding what Wikipedia policy disallows/discourages bias from being introduced by covering a topic more than it deserves based on its importance relative to the rest of the article. For instance, if a city has had problems with water quality and that's both verifiable and relevant, what's to stop somebody from filling 2/3 of the article with cited information about how terrible the water quality was, and aggressively defending that information's importance? (It's not a fringe viewpoint; it's simply an accepted fact being vastly over-emphasized.) It clearly introduces a bias to over-emphasize a negative point like that (or a positive one, for that matter), so it seems like something the NPOV policy should cover, but when people make the mistake of doing this, I'm not sure where to point them to. (crossposted at WP:NPOV talk) – Tifego (t) 08:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This has long been considered to be covered by the NPOV policy section on undue weight, but there now is a proposal and example wording that everyone so far on the talk page believe accurately summarizes how the policy should cover this. Please see WT:NPOV. - Taxman Talk 14:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Any comments on Wikipedia:No Polarising Policies would be appreciated. I think Wikipedia:Consensus doesn't put enough emphasis on the point made there. - Drrngrvy 16:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
An editor has recently taken it upon himself to begin a campaign to remove references to many arabic-titled articles (mostly connected with islamic subjects) from en.wikipedia, claiming they are "POV forks". In the course of this effort, he has recently added a " Translation" section to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles) instructing editors to that effect. It would seem that the result of adopting his additional guidelines will be that articles such as Allah and Isa will tend to be bypassed by wikipedia readers and editors alike, providing justification for their eventual deletion or merging (as subsidiary material, based on his contention that the abrahamic religions should be referred to in chronological order of their "founding", regardless of any claims that Islam predates Muhammad for example), as per Jibril (merged into Gabriel after a two-day "merge discussion period" during which no discussion took place; see Talk:Jibril) into articles with principally jewish or christian content. Other editors might like to comment on this development. — JEREMY 10:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I've written up a policy proposal for reforming the use of Wikipedia:Shortcuts, which seem overly arcane and confusing to newcomers. The proposal lets editors keep typing similar abbreviations, but has software convert the abbreviations into fuller text before showing them to readers.
Intead of typing, say, [[WP:NOR]], you'd type {{WP:NOR}}, which would display a template of that name. The template would contain nothing but a reader-friendly link to the page: Wikipedia:No original research, for example, or No original research (a Wikipedia policy).
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tlogmer ( talk • contribs) .
I don't mean to advertise, but... Oh, ok. It is an advertisment. I have designed a new policy on User:Misza13/Userbox Gallery Poll. It is still under construction, but to make it widely acceptable, it needs the community's input. Please make yourself familiar with it, perhaps visit it's talk page and make comments that will help me improve it before it is officially brought up for voting. Thank you, Misza 13 T C 20:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a current discussion at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approvals#Userboxbot regarding:
During the recent Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Cyde, he specifically stated that he was no longer working in the Userbox area. "Eventually I realized I was spending way too much time arguing over userboxes and I self-imposed a userbox wikibreak on myself. I made a conscious decision to get back to writing the encyclopedia."
Several (many?) folks endorsed based on that implied promise. A few others wisely thought it would be best to wait and see.
Looking at his deletion log, he began deleting userboxes the very day he was approved as an administrator, with the edit comment: I'm going to go out on a limb here and delete this userbox. Even though I said I wouldn't. Sorry.
In several recent cases, he has deleted (not subst and deleted), userboxen that have survived Templates for Deletion, in every case with majority of keep!
That means the debate moves to Wikipedia:Deletion review/Userbox debates, where very few even know about the discussion....
Yesterday, he deleted userboxes that had survived both TfD and DRVU in the past. At what point would it be appropriate to ask that administrator status be revoked because of disingenuity in his elevation, and failing to conform to community processes? And how would one go about that?
Folks will please note (by looking at my User page) that I don't have a dog in this userbox fight. But I'm tired of certain administrators failing to adhere to the limited and meager processes that exist.
Except you do have a dog in this "fight", Stranger. -- Cyde Weys 02:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
It was enlightening to me to see that this comment has been expressly declared by three members of the Arbitration Committee to a glaring example of severe incivility justifying Wikipedia discipline:
object to newbie-biting; slamming an article-in-progress one minute after a new user begins work is grossly uncivil. Give him a chance.
Discuss among yourselves. Monicasdude 21:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
phrase is used in opposition to that position, it's considered uncivil. And nothing in this pattern should give anyone pause? Monicasdude 15:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
After reading WP:EL I'm still not sure if it's OK to give an External link directly to a PDF. I've come acrose a number of external links on the wiki which link direcly to a PDF. Can someone who understands this policy clarify? Shlomke Shlomke 20:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
This may sound naive but I am a little confused about the true purpose of Wikipedia. I can see that you do not want to include collections of external links or Internet directories, collections of internal links, collections of public domain or other source material or collections of photographs or media files. I can also see that you discourage inclusion of or links to primary resources. Isn't the ability to link to other sites and to primary resources what makes the internet such a valuable tool? Are you trying to create some kind of secular knowledge network, with minimal reference to outside resources? As far as I can see this means: a) While you may cover a broad range of topics, it is difficult to reach depth with any one topic and; b) The material is completely fallible- it seems to be publishing simply "what readers think they know about a subject"- a little concerning. I am not meaning to criticise the site, merely wanting to understand it a little more. If anyone can help me, please do.
Thanks.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.68.32 ( talk • contribs)
See also comments at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Purpose of Wikipedia
ged -- what is discouraged are articles that consist of almost nothing but links, and we try to avoid links that amount to advertising. For one thing, much of the material on the web is simply not vetted enough to qualify as reliable. For another, there is a lot of material not on the web (see FUTON bias) that is often important to an understanding of a particular the subject.
"NOTE: Most teachers and professionals do not consider it appropriate to use tertiary sources such as encyclopedias as a sole source for any information. Wikipedia articles should be used for background information, and as a starting point for further research.
As with any community-built reference, there is a possibility for error in Wikipedia content — please check your facts against multiple sources and read our disclaimers for more information. "
There's been a gradual on-again, off-again edit war going on on my user page over my addition of that page to Category:1989 births. I don't see any reason why users can't be added to such categories, but others insist that this is so. Lar, ever the calm negotiator, suggested that I post here and find out, once and for all. — Gordon P. Hemsley→ ✉ 04:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
A new proposed guideline, Wikipedia:Expert editors, has been drafted and is awaiting comments. -- EngineerScotty 03:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The Historical Jesus vs. Jesus Myth Wars & Acharya S
http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S
I understand Wikipedia has been altering some aspects of its policies to enable it to be a more reliable, professional encyclopedia, and I have seen a few articles that reflect this. (I heard the interview on NPR with the head editor/manager... I was impressed by his visions and goals for Wikipedia)
THEN, today, when researching the subject of "Historical Jesus" at various places on the net, I encountered numerous Flame Wars ...whole websites and blogs dedicated to slandering individuals and authors in the "HJ" (Historical Jesus) camp... and other sites denigrating certain authors in the "Jesus Myth" (Jesus didn't exist) camp. Having made no conclusions of my own on this subject, I found the war between these participants, interesting, yet sophomoric... the goal apparently to destroy the reputations, and whole careers, of opposing players... including tactics like digging into private information and publishing it on the net.
AND I was amazed and greatly disappointed when the links ultimately lead me to WIKIPEDIA
How can you allow Wikipedia to be a battlefield for personal feuds?
While I may be skeptical of the above author's hypotheses in the subject of historical Jesus, the author is legitimate, nonetheless. The article may fit into the catagory of a book review (sort of), and while it is not an obvious “rant”, it is certainly not merely unbaised information about the above author.
I am not defending the author, Acharya S, nor her work ... I am complaining that this kind of game is allowed on Wikipedia
So, what's the word, village pump? (Or, if you prefer, the village pump, villag pump, villiage pump, De Kroeg, etc. :)) Are cross-namespace redirects (specifically from article-space to Wikipedia:-space) against policy or not? - Silence 23:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I just dealt with all of the cross-namespace redirects listed here, are there any others you guys happen to know about? -- Cyde Weys 23:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify this before I get asked, the only acceptable cross-namespace redirects have to begin with WP: (for project pages) and WT: (for project talk pages). Obviously having something like No personal attacks that redirects into project space is entirely unacceptable and directly conflicts with our encyclopedic mission. Plus, it breaks mirrors, which mirror the articles but not the project space pages. -- Cyde Weys 23:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the best place to raise it, but there is a problem with some tags, specifically merge tags, in so far as they don't appear to be time limited. I keep coming across articles which have merge tags attached and have done for months. No-one has supported the merger. Sometimes no-one has even commented on it, or the last comment was months ago. But the poser of the tag stands guard on it, and woe betide anyone who dares move it. They will be accused of censorship and everything bar starting the Black Death.
One user has been guarding his beloved merge tag for nearly a year now. No-one had commented on it, and it appears to be just a bit of ego on his behalf (he is pissed off that another article, in passing, dares mention the topic he is a self-proclaimed expert on — he has written the "definitive" (his words) article on the topic on the topic and is annoyed that someone else dare write about it somewhere else!. He wants them merged (ie, his version kept and the other passing mention dumped) and stands guard over his merge tag like Merlin.
Today I took a merge tag off another article. It was debated (slightly) in February and had no support. It has just been sitting there ever since. I know from experience of the author of the merge tag he will go ballistic when he sees it removed (its the same story. Author has his own "pet" article and does not like the fact that, in passing, the topic is mentioned in summary somewhere else. He is particularly peeved that he can't POV the second article the way, though sheer attrition, he has been able to POV his 'own' version. So he has the merge tag in theory to merge them, in reality to get stuff from one article dumped, leaving his article as the definitive version on Wikipedia).
Its almost funny seeing these battles. The problem is that the merge tag is not being used in many cases for genuine mergers but as part of one author's attempts in effect to copyright a topic and ensure that no-one else dares mentions it outside his or her pet article. Even when no-one agrees they still stand guard over the merge tag and threaten fire and brimstone on anyone daring to remove the merge tag. The tags should be time-limited, with say a decision within 14 days, or 7 days, of their inclusion in an article, and a ban on they being imposed over and over again on the same article by the same user. As of now the merge tag is being grossly abused and seems to reflect not so much a real need to merger but someone's ego being annoyed that someone else dared write on 'their' topic, even in two or three lines, elsewhere. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 15:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Mgekelly has unfairly dismissed my as a vandal becuae I listed templates for deletion just becuase they are highly offensive. Does this mean that if I continue to do so, or even place a vote to delete it just because of my morals, I really do desearve more respect. He can't even beleive that I do not (automatcialy or not) know today's date, it is possible to forget it, or what 'frivolous' means. Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian):-(
I'm surprised that wikipedia does not base its contents on even international (drug) laws. I happen to see templates that claim a user to transgress such laws as immoral (why are they less common on wikipedia than in the real world, that is my expierience (I'm middle class Australian)). Why should I be blocked form editing for a perfectly reasonable TFD nomination? How unfair! Mgekelly finds it hard to believe that I do not (automaticaly or not) know today's date. It is possible to forget it. And no one has yet told me what 'frivolous' means. Help! Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian):-(
There is much inconsistency in policy about whom to include in ethnic groups. I propose a set of rules.
People should only be included if one of the following applies:
1. There is clear and explicit evidence that they, or both their parents ("born to Italian-American parents"), or their family ("from an Italian-American family") are of that ethnic group.
2. If they are described as say half-Italian, they should be listed with a note. If they are described as say Irish-German, they should be listed under both headings with a note. (this refers to ethnicity, not nationality, i.e. "Irish-German" meaning, say, a "List of German-Americans", not a "List of Germans")
3. There is clear and explicit evidence that one parent is of that group, and it should be noted in the list that it is only one parent.
4. If there is only some ethnic ancestry (i.e. less than a parent), proof has to be shown that the person identified with that group above others or singled it out, such as Robert DeNiro for Italian Americans. The proof should be explicit in that the person self-identified, and persons listed as such should be the exception, not the majority
5. As Sikhs and Jews are also religious groups, an exception is needed for converts to these religions, who would be explicitly noted.
6. Consideration is needed of the treatment of adopted people.
It is suggested that where possible the source to confirm the person's ethnicity should be cited in the format: "Name" - "Number citation" - "Quote, directly from the person or from the source" (citations from offline would be listed after the quote). See List of Catholic American entertainers for examples of this citation method. This would not work where the reference is to a list, such as a list of Italian American Oscar winners.
In the manner of inclusion, the rules apply equally to all lists of ethnic groups. We shouldn't apply different rules to one particular ethnic group (i.e. and as a result exclude someone from the list who fits the above criteria) and not treat it equally with other groups is discrimination.
This policy should also apply to ethnicity categories, which need to be consistent with the lists, and help to ensure that the maximum of categories a person could be listed in would normally be two.
Newport 10:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the proposal above is roughly correct. For citation, I highly recommend the cite.php mechanism, especially because in many cases there will be many people cited to a single source. And I don't want to see the main body of a list littered with quotations. Put 'em in the notes. The main body should just be the names, superscripts linking to footnotes, and a qualifying statement, if needed (e.g. for Fiorello LaGuardia, in a list of Jewish people "father was Italian" and in a list of Italians "mother was Jewish").
I don't totally agree with "To apply different rules to one particular ethnic group and not treat it equally with other groups is discrimination":
When this discussion "plays out" and is to be archived, could someone please copy it to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic Groups? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 15:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Sheesh! What's next, creating lists of Mulattos, Quadroons and Octoroons? I think there's something obsessive about this trying to assign lables to people that don't really fit in your little categories. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 02:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the lists are problematic BUT they do serve a research purpose in that they can be the starting point of detailed research and very useful - I do beleive that ethnic lists should rely on 2 criteria - 1 - Documented Ancestry and 2. Individual's opinion or how they see themselves. However, I'm not sure what is right - part of me thinks if it is good enough for a Government to recognise an individual through descent as the irish Government does back to if an individual can proove descent from an Irish Parent, grandparent or a great grandparent they are entitled to Irish Citizenship, so perhaps that should be the standard practice for this list and other similar ones that are based on ethnicity. It would be more accurate in that the descent issue is easier to substantiate through research than an individual's personal identification e.g. genealogy, family history and background is far more likely to be detailed in biographies where as an individual’s identification is harder to pin down as it can appear in a variety of sources usually not well publicised or promoted and be more localised that are far more difficult to find; such as newspaper articles, interviews, reviews etc. that are not on the net or readily available and lets face it nowadays most people use the net to source. I do believe also that some contribution to Irish American culture or American culture in general should be considered. Believe me I think what you are doing is a tremendous undertaking and you are very brave to do it simply because your hard work can be (ultimately) trashed by someone who has a different opinion or is less dedicated to verification and simply because of their own limited view decides that someone doesn't belong on the list. I hate to keep harping on the one family but Garland's family is a perfect example of my point. She certainly belongs in the main category of irish Americans under actors because during her heyday she contributed to Irish American Culture through Irish themed songs that were on every jukebox in every Irish Pub through the 1970s, she was a regular guest on fellow Irishman Bing Crosby's radio show during the 1950s singing many Irish songs with him and often referred to her self as Irish and also to her Irish maternal family, incidentally here is a good quote from the article that appeared in Irish America Magazine "She never lost her Celtic soul". However her daughters belong in the Distant section because that is appropriate for them in that they do have substatiated "Distant" Irish heritage and although may not promote it daily have referred to it on occasion and probably more than some entries on the main list. By example; how does one know Lorna Luft does not identity with being Irish? I live in Ireland and she has appeared in concert and on Television in Ireland many times over the years, she starred in the Dublin production of Follies, she lived here for a period and often visits, she has made reference to "the family's Irish charm", and other quotes about about her mother's Irish traits in her book Me and My Shadows, and in interviews in the USA, Ireland and the UK, she has appeared at Irish charity performances in New York with Irish entertainers and a famous photograph of her by Scuvello that appeared on the cover of Interview Magazine pictured her in a green sequined outfit holding a huge shamrock! She is first and foremost American but certainly has demonstrated an appreciation for her Irish heritage as well as that of her father who was of Russian/German Jewish decent but she is Episcopalian like her mother and sister but yet is listed in a wikipedia list as a "Jewish Female singer" should I delete her from that list? I don't think so the wider issue is that each list should require the editor to give a reason why the individual they are proposing should be on the list. Liza Minnelli is as much Irish as she is Italian in that she had only 1 Italian Grandparent and 1 Irish Grandparent and while she wasn't raised in either an "Italian or Irish " family environment she is aware of her heritage. She was quoted in an early London Times interview after Cabaret stating "I'm Italian, Irish and French" obviously choosing to omit Scottish as her "French" and Irish Grandmothers was also half Scottish. Since then she has appeared at many Italian and Irish American functions and commented on both nationalities but in reality prefers her French ancestry as that was the heritage that her father identified with. I have found that people generally identify more with their mother's nationality due to the family influence is usually stronger from teh mother's extended family. I think inclusion in the distant part of the list and perhaps some historic figures should solely be based on documental direct heritage. There is an article that appeared in the Irish Echo newspaper around 1991 where Liza attributes her determination and ability to laugh at herself to her Irish roots - but as I say these comments are very much "localised" and not widely available unless someone does extensive research. I have many articles, letters and other documents not available on the net that realate to many people's Irish connections and use them in my work but for the most part this material is hard to find unless the individuals have a lead or know where to look and it is rarely on the net. There is also the scientific reality that is Mitochondrial DNA that is passed from generation to generation unchanged from the female line - what this means is that an individual in America who had an Irish distant Great Grandmother would have the same mitochondrial DNA as that distant (female) relation, this has tremendous implications for health research and forensic identification. I am sorry to go on so much but as you can tell this is a subject that interests me very much. There is also something that we must take into consideration when talking about Irish American Culture that is fairly unique in how "loyal" individuals can be to it even if the connection goes back many generations and the current family name is not remotely Irish - this again is a fairly unique phenomenon more common among those with Irish roots. Research into this has stated that America, Canada and Australia all founded on waves of immigration offered a new life to these "tired and poor huddled masses yearning to be free" but in the case of the Irish leaving Ireland was not a choice but a necessity to survive and many regretted having to leave and many were angry over having to leave and I dare say many were glad to leave but ultimately this forced immigration did not sever the ties with home and generations of the same families continued to cross the ocean right up until recent times and this has kept the link open and to a degree fresh. Also the Famine Irish of the 1840s after only 2 generations in America became very influential and successful in the military, church, politics and show-business, combined with the world-wide popularity of St Patrick's Day celebrations particularly in America and the stereotypical images of the Irish that were for the most part flattering although some not so e.g. drinkers and fighters but overall this group of people managed to maintain a strong connection with their "motherland" whilst still remaining fiercely patriotic Americans. Ireland did not interfere with American identity that was to a degree formulated by Irish immigrants. Finally on entries like Arthur Shields, Barry Fitzgerald, Geraldine Fitzgerald and Maureen O'Sullivan it is highly likely that they became Naturalised American Citizens as did Maureen O'Hara for several reasons the least being that they made their living there, and that it was a very patriotic timein Hollywood and America and they were unable to go back to Ireland due to WWII - sorry to be so long winded and I am happy to asssit as I can. 86.12.253.32
Don't censor, explain. I think some of you might be forgetting that over the years this encyclopedia is bound to expand, not contract. People want more information, not less. Why try to remove names from a list? What's the hidden agenda? Why try to hide that someone had a Rwandan great-great-great-grandmother? This project is not a border patrol saying can come in and who can't. Readers want to know everything! If you merely want clarification as to WHY someone is on the list, fine, but that will tend to happen with or without a rule. Don't censor, explain. --Armenian-Irish-German-Austrian-Swedish-French-English-USAmerican-Canadian Korky Day 23:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
We don't need, nor can we have, special rules for lists of any ethnicity. All we need it Wikipedia policy. WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:RS. All Wikipedia articles must follow Wikipedia policy, we can't have special rules for these ones. Jayjg (talk) 05:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a curious misunderstanding by some editors of the point of this proposal. No change is suggested to any WP policy (although of course, since we proceed by consensus, any policy could be overturned if the community so wished). However, the policies are not enough. We need some supplementary guidelines and definitions. Consider Irish Americans. It violates no WP policy whether we have a list entitled
In the third case, we could put in the introduction whether it is restricted to people with one Irish parent, grandparent or great-grandparent. We could include every eligible person without comment, or add a note explaining the extent of their Irish ancestry. We could include everyone whose brother or sister (i.e. both parents the same) is on the list, even if there is no explicit source that they are of Irish-American ethnicity, because it is illogical to split siblings in that way. As long as we say what we are doing, this violates no policy. As SlimVirgin has said, "I agree that there should be consistent criteria for inclusion across all these lists"; we just need to decide what the criteria are. In the case of Jews, we can say that we will include someone without comment if we have a reference that his or her mother, or mother's mother, or mother's mother's mother, was Jewish, since such a person is Jewish in orthodox Jewish law, or we can say that a comment must be added. If anyone can think of a loose end not covered above, please say so. - Newport 11:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The only criterion that is compatible with Wikipedia's policies for lists of foos is that the person in question has been described as a "foo" in a reputable source. Deciding that having X ancestry or Y upbringing or Z parents makes you a foo is original research. Wikipedia restates what reputable sources have already stated. It does not make judgements. I consider the following policies absolutely nonnegotiable: WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. I suggest to Newport and Jack O'Lantern that they read them and make a genuine attempt to understand them.
As far as having "Lists of people with foo descent", this is fine, but must be restricted to those people who are described as having foo descent in the sources. You may not interpret other wordings as meaning that they have foo descent, any more than you can interpret them as meaning they are foos.
People ask, does this mean we should include people who are in our view wrongly described as a foo on lists of foos. The answer is yes, if there is no other, preferably better source that says otherwise. If you do not understand that, go and read WP:V once more. The key sentence is in bold. The criterion for entry in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. We do not decide what is true. We state what others can go see for themselves.
I should point out to Jack O'Lantern that "one drop" tests are absolutely unacceptable for an encyclopaedia of this nature. It doesn't matter whether you think this, that or other thing makes someone a foo. Unless you have a reputable source that states it, you may not include the person in a list of foos. This is exactly the same standard for all edits on Wikipedia. Write it on a piece of paper, Jack. Stick it on the wall above your PC. Wikipedia does not make judgements. To do so is original research, which is rightly forbidden here. Grace Note 23:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe this should have its own header/section but on a related matter to the ethnic lists, is their a standard biographical format for AMERICAN born, I won't even get into foreign born, folks, as far as "Jewishness". I see that 90% of the bios read,"joe blow, is an American tight rope walker. He was born to a Jewish family or is of Jewish decent or his father was a Polish Jew, ect ect." It seems that the term Jewish-American isn't appropriate. Thanks!
Backroomlaptop 06:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
A "Jewish mathematicians" category was created very recently, and a link thereto was added to the bottom of the pages of quite a few mathematicians. We might be best off not having such a list altogether - and certainly no bottom-of-the-page category. Some reasons are given in
Category_talk:Jewish_mathematicians
Of course, there would also be the advantage of avoiding yet another war on inclusion criteria, for what that is worth. What do you think? Hasdrubal 19:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a comment: categorizing people by ethnic groups is in itself controversial, and does not (and won't) have unanimous support. " Wikipedia is not a democracy" is written somewhere in the policies, to let know that decisions here should be taken not by majority, but by consensus - that's real democracy, but anyway. I just want to point out the debate that has taken place in January 2006 in the talk page of the French people article. Although the vast majority of French people and French Wikipedians who edited the article rightly insist that French people is not an ethnic group, because of a variety of historical and cultural reasons (without entering the debate, I'll just refer to Ernest Renan's classical conception of a nation, opposed to the German understanding of the Volk - which definitely is an ethnic group). However, (mostly) Canadians and US people have repeatedly insist on qualifying it as an ethnic group (due to their partial and uncomplete understanding of French culture and, more importantly, to North-American political stakes - they thus transfer a North-American debate about ethnicity to define the French people as an ethnic group, against the will and history of the French people! -- ignoring the first rule of ethnicity, that the people concerned must first define them as such!). This has led to wrongly include the French people on the list of ethnic groups. Any historian of nationalities and nationalism will agree that the two rival conceptions about the nation concerned this German/French opposition, and thus the French case is surely not alone. Controversies have therefore a long time before them. Lapaz 22:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
There's currently a debate about whether or not the {{ Policy}} or {{ Guideline}} templates should have "feel free to edit this ..." in them. Please see some of the older discussion at Template talk:Guideline, and let's centralize the discussion at Template talk:Policy. This was also posted at WP:RFC/POLICIES. — Locke Cole • t • c 21:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there a page where different standards for how foreign language words/names/articles/etc. are presented on Wikipedia? For example, someone has suggested on the talk page for Jopará that the article be retitled Jopara, without the accent. English speakers would most likely encounter the word/concept in a Spanish context, in which case the correct spelling would include the accent. Strictly speaking, however, the word comes from Guarani (though it would be used in both Spanish and Guarani), and according to Guarani rules, there wouldn't be an accent. zafiroblue05 | Talk 23:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
There ought to be a systematic policy of putting in redirects whenever there is any accent or diacritical in the article title. Otherwise, it makes things much harder for English-speaking people looking for articles. - Runcorn 19:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi
I'm a part of a research network funded by the EU whose mission is to: "... leverage added-value from existing work through interaction and to use this to encourage further contributions from new participants. A key objective of the network is to foster interaction between all the many different scientific sectors involved in this multi-disciplinary area and to help create truly inter-disciplinary perspectives." OK, blah blah blah, but the point is we have funding to create something which is publicly understandable about a subdiscipline of cognitive science. This would of course respect the no original research rules, but rather create a summary of existing published pratice that other members of the field could freely expand upon.
I've been looking at and playing with wikipedia for about 6 months now and I'm convinced it could support this kind of endeavour and that this would be well within its mission. I expect to make a portal. But the one question is that the funding agency wants to be acknowledged. There are many pages with acknowledgements of original sources at the bottom (e.g. EB 1911 or whatever). Would it be OK to cite people who paid other people while they were typing in content to wikipedia?
Thanks,
-- Joanna Bryson 10:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they are aware of that and not sure whether to go with this model. I think it is really an interesting question --- if we do go forwards and embrace wikipedia as a scientific tool supporting research then it will have an impact on the culture I think. And on the mission. Most encyclopedias don't document the creation of a discipline, for example. On the other hand, most don't have a "current events" category.
Maybe we should make an acknowledgement template which points out that funders are acknowledged on the talk page from the main page. I like your suggestion other than that -- I do think it would be nice to have a easily reinserted direction arrow. Also, note that eventually the funding notice (like the EB ref) probably should get deleted when it no longer represents the majority of the content. Funders don't get acknowledged on papers that cite funded research, just the original paper. We would also have an accompanying traditional publication for the "archival" version. -- Joanna Bryson 17:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Funders in academic papers are quite used to having just very small acks in footnotes, so for academics its no culture shock. What is much more a problem for objectivity is when the funder isn't acknowledged so you don't know what kind of bias may be in the research. But I did think it might be surprising / confusing to a lot of less-academic wikipedians, which is why I was looking for input. -- Joanna Bryson 20:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
That's very interesting. How about this:
This makes sense to me because the history is the only thing that's really permanent, and it seems to be minimally disruptive. Am I on the right track?-- Joanna Bryson 07:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that's a brilliant idea, I will shop that by the funders involved. Do you think I should still also send this to the mailing list? Do you think someone should make a policy page about this? I guess I need to do more reading about policy is made -- it's certainly not concensus yet. -- Joanna Bryson 13:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Copyrights "Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, with no Front-Cover Texts, and with no Back-Cover Texts."
Alternately, whenever someone adds content to Wikipedia, it says underneath "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL."
The issue is that the people are agreeing to release their entries under the full GPL GFDL while the Copyrights page says that Wikipedia texts are available under a restricted version of the GFDL, .
To further muddy the waters, the release statement links to the Copyright page (which includes the information that a restricted version of the GFDL is used) but in a different context ie. in the "do not violate copyright" context rather than the "this is the licence you're releasing under" context, making it arguably not required/expected reading before release like the GFDL link. Irrevenant 02:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, GFDL is by no way the same as "full GPL". Is that perhaps the origin of your misunderstanding (in fact I don't understand what you misunderstand... the wording you use to explain your alleged problem are anyway self-contradictory - that doesn't help others to understand what you think is going wrong)? Note also that both GPL and GFDL currently use the copyright mechanism. Without copyright... no GPL, nor GFDL. And that's also a copyright you're not allowed to violate when adding content to wikipedia. Copyrights of GFDL'ed or GPL'ed content can be violated when adding them to wikipedia (typically, e.g., by not mentioning the source of such copylefted sources, or other abuses of the license conditions of the original source). Wikipedia's copyright conditions include not to allow invariant sections et.al. to be imported in wikipedia (which is Wikipedia's copyright conditions). You have a problem with that? In that case: don't contribute. The copyright terms are explained in wikipedia:copyrights, which is linked from every content page, including in edit mode (so never say of a wikipedia content page that it doesn't link to its copyright terms, or that different pages link to different copyright conditions). Also, if the following would have been your problem: "full GFDL" implies that the publisher of the source indicates if there are invariant sections et. al.: "full GFDL" assumes there to be none of such sections if not mentioned... adding invariant sections etc. is a restriction of the full GFDL conditions. -- Francis Schonken 12:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
If the Modified Version includes new front-matter sections or appendices that qualify as Secondary Sections and contain no material copied from the Document, you may at your option designate some or all of these sections as invariant.
Okay, let me take a shot at this. I'm not a GFDL expert, but from reading most everything (though skimming a lot), I think the source of the confusing lies in this passage: ""Permission is granted to copy... with no Invariant Sections, with no Front-Cover Texts, and with no Back-Cover Texts." What I think might be the case from Mr. Schonken's position so far is that the "with no..." clause modifies what may be copied from Wikipedia, not what the copier may create themselves. So Irrevenant is concerned that the passage is forbidding the addition of invariant sections, front-cover texts, and back-cover texts, while what the passage is really saying is that no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts may be copied from Wikipedia.
Is this right? If so, the text for that notice that is recommended by the GFDL is really confusing, because Irreverant's reading is what I got from it too. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
There's more to it. The standard GFDL/copyright statement (which indeed might confuse if not reading the whole of the GFDL text, which is also legalese, but blame RMS/ FSF for that),
[...] Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. [...]
ALSO implies that at no point in time there could be found Invariant Sections or Cover Texts in Wikipedia's content. While, if there would be Invariant Sections or Cover Texts in Wikipedia, the formulation would need to be different, still according to Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License#How to use this License for your documents:
So you'd have to keep lists of these types of sections, which Wikipedia doesn't do currently. And certainly no copies of these lists are included in the copyright statement.
The problem is, that this also implies (as long as wikipedia keeps to the No Invariant Sections/No Cover Texts copyright statement) no (other) GFDL documents containing Invariant Sections or Cover Texts can be added to wikipedia, while Invariant Sections or Cover Texts remain Invariant Sections or Cover Texts when joined in another document. The only possibility (but then you'd need to be copyright owner of these documents or at least you'd need express permission by the copyright owner to do that) is to copy the text of such Invariant Sections or Cover Texts in Wikipedia agreeing that they lose their statute of being Invariant Sections or Cover Texts, while Wikipedia has no means to protect that statute ("invariant" means that that text should be "literally" kept in every copy of Wikipedia's content, and should be listed as such in the copyright statement; the same for Cover Texts – read the GFDL). Which doesn't happen. And that's why currently the copy of Wikipedia's content at the WikiMedia servers/databases can not accept "Invariant" or "Cover" content according to what these concepts mean in the GFDL.
Note that anybody can copy Wikipedia content, add Invariant or Cover matter according to the GFDL (section 4 et. al.) and distribute such modified versions. But that person can not impose on the Wikimedia Foundation to distribute such version that includes Invariant or Cover texts. Unless, when the GFDL/copyright statement of the WikiMedia projects would change so that the Invariant and Cover Texts are listed, and on top of that there would be a system with which to protect such content in designated places (won't happen in any foreseeable future afaik). -- Francis Schonken 15:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
From the deep, dark and dank quarters of the Wikimedia dungeon guards comes the practice of Ostracism. Read more at: A proposal to add Ostracism to the official list of Wikimedia philosophies -- PCE 14:48, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
50 Bad Things in Wikipedia
FYI, Zondor started inserting {{
Associations/Wikipedia Bad Things}} on the (currently) 36 37 40 (hard to keep up) guidelines/policies mentioned in that template. Good idea?
I don't have a clear opinion on the issue yet, apart from some technical issues with the template (it's TOO LONG, so crosses the lines under quite a few level ==...== section titles on most pages); also in general my first appreciation is too long: 36-link navigational templates don't work too good on pages that usually already have quite a few templates. That's a usability concern (if it doesn't help to get to the right guideline/policy quicker I suppose it's no real improvement, 36-item lists on pages that already have a few linked lists is assumably a usability horror in that sense).
Also, basicly it's a negative approach, listing "wrong" things on 36 policy/guideline pages, and not listing "things that can go splendid" in wikipedia, with links to pages with positive tips & tricks on how to achieve that.
Also several entries in the list might be questionable, e.g. "Weasel wording" and "Peacock terming" are currently listed - why not the more generic wikipedia:words to avoid?
But, as said, apart from these "first impressions" I don't have a real opinion yet. Something in this vein (but simpler then) might maybe work and might actually be a good idea. -- Francis Schonken 13:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
It's an interesting idea and I wouldn't want to delete it, but at the same time, it's not so important as to need including on dozens of policy pages. It's kind of pessimistic to organize all project space pages in terms of "Bad things". I think a "Policies" organizational template would be a lot more appropriate. -- Cyde Weys 18:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of a list that intermingles policy, guidelines, and essays indiscriminantly, and if it does it really shouldn't be on each policy page (which state that the contents of that page - templates included - is policy). I like the idea behind it, however - would it be more appropriate as a userspace-only template? Or changed into a Wikipedia:Essay page? Ziggurat 23:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
A better name could be Wrong Things. This is a subset of Bad Things which is quite broad. Why Good Things, another POV? Two wrongs don't make a right. Not all items should be displayed. We can make it so only policies are allowed to be included. -- Zondor 23:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
This template is pointless. Many things on the list are rephrased awkwardly to be negative, like "not being bold". What does making a huge list of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, all expressed confusingly in the negative, accomplish? We don't need a "Good Things" template either, as it'd just involve negating everything on that list. It doesn't need a different name, or different formatting, it just needs to be kept off of policy/guideline pages like any other large chunk of irrelevant text would be. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 02:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I still like it. It's just another way to teach people some important stuff about Wikipedia. I would like it better if it somehow led to constructive responses--how to avoid these problems, how to fix them, how to report them. But as a list it's not doing any harm. I agree it shouldn't be a template on all those pages though. · rodii · 03:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The point of it is to try and keep everyone above par. You can do almost anything you like on Wikipedia but as a minimum requirement you should not do wrong things or bad things. Admittedly, this is a POV stance on how Wikipedia should be for the better. -- Zondor 03:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Two ideas:
The Grid of Warnings is not a bad tool but there are some flaws. It trivialises the handling of Wrong Things. When one is given one of these warnings, it can come across as a personal attack, vandal insult, bad faith and causing incivility. You can have some comments to go along with it, but people don't want to be receiving any of these at all in the first place. Nonetheless, it is a useful tool for the most part. This tool is for a problem-reaction situation, a problem wrong thing is reacted to by slapping on a warning template. -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
50 Wrongs Things to do in Wikipedia is to prevent the problem from occurring altogether. Its purpose is not to tell you what you must do to fix it, it is trying to get you to understand a definite list of problems that exist in the Wikipedia world. The truth is out there. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth." The outcome from this will result in more Wikipedians achieving enlightenment (like the Buddhism concept). -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The critical reason why it is objected is because it is too intrusive coupled with a negative spin particularly as it is on the top of the page as a Disruption wrong thing. Would it be less intrusive if it was made flat and be put and the bottom of the page? Otherwise, would it be less intrusive if it was kept of the policy pages altogether? It needs a project page of its own anyway. It projects negativity and people don't like negativity and will try to minimise it. The NPOV policy page already has a list of its own without but any negativity. -- Zondor 04:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
While closing an AfD debate, I found this strange situation where an article ( Alex Campana) is completely (besides the See also section and the categories) included in another one ( Current Watford F.C. players). I think that either the first article should be substituted in the second or the second article should link (rather than include) the first, but I can't find anything in the policies. Opinions? - Liberatore( T) 13:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I quite agree. That's what cross-links are for. Runcorn 19:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I found this, which suggests this was a prefunctorily discussed temporary measure, and yet it's been a year and it's still not even documented. Is this weird, or am I just on crack? -Dan 07:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The discussion and the development of the proposal could benefit from some more input. Шизомби 06:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me if a "2nd notice" is inappropriate. However, the proposed guideline Wikipedia:Expert editors has been fleshed out after much comment and participation, and we are now formally inviting further comment on it's talk page before putting it up for a vote. Thanks~ -- EngineerScotty 21:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Forgive if this has been answered before. I have a chronic disease (multiple sclerosis). As most such diseases, for which neither cause nor cure has been identified, there are far flung research efforts. The Wikipedia article on ms is among the best I have read but...it ends far too soon. Could the site not serve a acute need by helping researchers from different disciplines/with differing theories, work together to map out where there are common or supportive findings through an iterative and corrective process. Example (a real one). An experimental drug is thought to impact on animal version of MS by inhibiting T-cell function/dampening the immune system. It is however, found to work by actally increasing a certain kind of immune cells known as "regulatory natural killer cells"...which proliferate in certain conditions...including pregnancy....while across the world...researchers are looking at hormone estriol, produced during pregnancy and believed to be reason that MS exacerbations normally decrease during third trimester. I'm not a scientist (obviously) jsut frustrated that these million points of reference don't seem to ever move closer together to illumination. I know wikipedia is an encyclopedia, but couldn't the MS pages be, not extended, but expanded by subpages to allow for this kind of review?
You couldn't have discussions in articles, because of WP:NOR, but it would be nice if Wikipedia could facilitate something good like this. Runcorn 19:50, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOT EVIL
Herostratus 18:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
(Anyway, this is a total rip-off of Google.) — Simetrical ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Lets say I am an author of an article, and I have submitted it to Wikipedia, thus agreeing to license it under the GFDL. Other people who use material need to credit Wikipedia, post the GFDL policy or link to it, etc.
But if I want to use my own article elsewhere, after I licensed it here, do I (as the author) need to also post all these notices? In other words, do I forfiet any usage rights of my work by submitting it to Wikipedia?
Also, if you release an image under the GFDL, you may modify the image and not release your changes under the GFDL. Then the unmodified image would be free, the modified one would be unfree. Again, you forfeit your right to prevent people from using your work in accordance with the GFDL, but not your right to use your own work other than in accordance with the GFDL or to allow others to use your work other than in accordance with the GFDL. — Simetrical ( talk • contribs) 22:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's 1970s section and references to the decade elsewhere are attracting adverse comment - there are several articles like this around - http://70struth.blogspot.com/2006/04/wikipedia-inaccurate-1970s-section.html . Please can contributors ensure that the 1970s section does not detract from the historical realities of that and other decades, and that all references to the 1970s elsewhere are justified and not just examples of the writer's own personal enthusiasm for the decade? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.123.54 ( talk • contribs)