This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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Does WP have a policy someone can point me to about bot-style automated changes to mainspace content?
IPv4_address_exhaustion has a paragraph that appears to be updated by "automated scripts"; the content in question here is a noted networking researcher's predicted date of IP address exhaustion.
If this kind of thing is fine, I'm happy to let it go, but it is at the least a bit irritating (watchlist-wise). --- tqbf 02:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Could someone very familiar with image policy help me? I stumbled across this image, taken by a professional(?) photographer who has allowed many of his images to be used on Wikipedia. The problem is that the photographer appears to be demanding that each one of his images be accompanied by a spammy photo credit that includes a link to his website:
This strikes me as very un-wiki-like, and I dislike seeing external, promotional links in our articles. Are arrangements like this acceptable? If not, what steps should I take?-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back ( talk) 12:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps my response is coming a little late, but I think it would be all right to use these photos (including the attribution in each image caption), at least until ones that are licensed more freely can be found. — Remember the dot ( talk) 02:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Crediting images in the caption is potentially a serious problem - the Creative Commons license requires that attribution be made in a manner no less prominent than the attribution to other contributing authors. So if any image has an inline credit, my read of it is that we have to attribute at least every Creative Commons image that way - and that's obviously bad. -- B ( talk) 05:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
There is some on-going discussion about notability. The common idea being "If it's a real X then it's obviously notable." (where X = river, city, mountain, etc.). This presents a few issues.
When does a "hill", "stream" or "intersection"/"town" become a "mountain", "river" or "town"/"city"? Where I live, there are commonly applied labels that defy any reasonable definition: "_____ Hill" is also called "Mt. _______" in everday speach and in published sources.
My particular situation is showing up under a river discussion Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Valea_Pietrei_Mici_River where the concensous seems to be that it is real and therefore notable. I cannot find anything substantial on this either way. However, given the seemingly broad support for the idea, it would seem to be time to propose a notability guideline for geographic features. Mdsummermsw ( talk) 15:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see a more comprehensive policy for this. I direct users to things such as [ [1]], where there are thousands of one-liner stubs for every little village under the sun with a lack of sources on almost all of them and no indication of noteability. A recent test case AfD had numerous people voting "Keep, places are inherently noteable." But -why- are they noteable? What makes them so? Jtrainor ( talk) 22:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I accept that every town is notable. What about the new page at Prince William, Indiana which says that its subject is an "extinct town"? Is that different from a Ghost town? Accounting4Taste: talk 20:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I propose the loosening or repeal of WP:MYSPACE, on the grounds that we should encourage users to do their social networking here rather than on Facebook, MySpace, etc. My reasoning is that the more people hang out here, the more contributions we may attract; and that it is worth the small amount of extra server overhead to get this benefit. Personal relationships existing outside Wikipedia can blossom into article collaborations. What would it be like if people invited their friends to join WikiProjects the way they invite their friends to join groups and causes on FaceBook today?
Current policy states, "Wikipedia is not an appropriate place to pursue your desire for relationships or sex. User pages that move beyond broad expressions of sexual preference are unacceptable." While the inherent lack of privacy on wikis (i.e. all edits are public) would seem to make them an unlikely place to meet people, I think that this debate is similar to the concept of office romances - while they can be distracting, there is also the potential for positive impacts, including the possibility to: [1]
It's not altogether implausible that people might meet via Wikipedia as the userbase grows and regulations are loosened sufficiently to allow its demographics to change – similarly to how the Internet became a dating scene as it became more popular and utilized by the mainstream.
I think an argument was made awhile ago that excessive userpage contributions/board game playing/similar activities would clog up the Recent Changes page. But isn't there software out there to filter recent changes for that kind of stuff, analogous to what Cryptoderk uses to focus his RC patrol on non-whitelisted users?
The server overhead issue might also be something that could take care of itself. A certain percentage of people who use Wikipedia make donations; as the number of users rises, the number of donations would rise too, assuming a fixed donor-to-user ratio. One might argue, the purpose of Wikimedia is to fund encyclopedia-writing and other useful projects, not social networking. But if the social networking furthers the encyclopedia-writing, then it is just a means to an end, and one worth supporting. Similar arguments could be made about the Internet. Should public universities comprising the internet backbone pay to support computer game downloads and other frivolous transfers? People used to say such activities, if they got out of hand, would pose a threat to the continued existence of the Internet as we know it. But as the Internet's popularity soared, more resources poured in, the technology improved, and many of those things became non-issues.
I say, repeal all restrictions on userpages except for copyvios, libel, and other illegal content. And let people open up shop if they want. Sarsaparilla ( talk) 01:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
In seriousness, I strongly support a loosening of the rigidity of present attitudes towards "social networking" on Wikipedia. Per WP:PERFORMANCE, it is established that we do not need to delete things in order to free up server space. As userspace is not part of the encyclopedia, there is therefore no obvious need to delete anything in userspace unless it is inappropriate, attacks other users, violates copyright, or otherwise brings Wikipedia into disrepute. In some cases, where a user has clearly created an account for the purposes of advertising or of abusing their userspace as a free webhost, it may be appropriate to delete their userpages (through MfD) in order to make it clear that this is not the purpose of Wikipedia. However, where a user is making some beneficial contributions to the encyclopedia, nominating their userpages for deletion just to make a point tends to come over as hostile and aggressive, and more often than not drives the user away, which is detrimental to the encyclopedia, as editors are our most important resource. I don't think we should repeal WP:MYSPACE, as Wikipedia is not a social networking site and this needs to be made clear in policy; however, users should always think twice before nominating someone else's userpages for deletion. It's coercive, aggressive, and rarely results in any benefit to the encyclopedia. Walton One 12:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
A while ago I pointed out that someone had vandalized my comment, in the discussion page about the "Missouri" article, under the topic heading "Missoura". They had inserted the insult "dumb". I removed it, but apparently they later re-inserted the insult, which has now become part of the archived (archive #2) history of the discussion page for "Missouri".
When I pointed out that someone had vandalized my comment, I supposed that this would only have been possible due to a bug. To my surprise, I was informed that the ability of a vandal to edit someone else's remarks on a discussion page, is considered a feature and not a bug. I might add that the arguments/rationale put forth for this policy, were not convincing to me.
(Fast forward a few months...)
Now that the vandalism has been archived, I can't revert it at all! --or at least, not without breaking the admonition to leave archives un-edited.
Does this seem like proof to anybody (other than me) that only the original writer should be able to edit a writer's remarks on a discussion page? Absent such a policy, the implied authorship of any archived material has no credibility, because the archived material may have been vandalized shortly before it was archived. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Publius3 ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Just now, while I was perusing the Wikipedia page on the Wikipedia! I saw this:
Software created by Luca de Alfaro and colleagues at the University of California, Santa Cruz is now being tested that will assign "trust ratings" to individual Wikipedia contributors, with the intention that eventually only edits made by those who have established themselves as "trusted editors" will be made immediately visible. Article
I am just curious to know if anyone else thinks this is a bad idea. My reasoning is that, while there are certainly many people who come to the Wikipedia to vandalize or to make POV or defamatory statements, for the most part I think people make their first edits because they know something and want to share. Then, when they make a contribution there is the *immediate* feedback/pride at having contributed something and seeing it appear right away. It is like the little "food pellet" that makes them want to press the edit "lever" again.
Thus, I think that implementing such a policy would have negative effects on the encyclopaedia's growth. I think if people couldn't see their edits implemented immediately they would fall a little out of love with the process. And while some might argue that this would insure that only people who were "serious" would get to make changes I think that this project was built with 35% seriousness and 65% love and self-satisfaction! As it is, the encyclopaedia has only continued to grow and refine over the years without this policy and the average amount of time an instance of vandalism remains on a given site is 3 minutes. I also think that this would hinder people (like me) who think that one way to build the encyclopedia is to assign underserved stub topic pages to students to build in lieu of term research papers (given that I think kids are more careful and conscientious when they know the whole world is watching). With this new policy that would no longer be a possibility and lots of great articles would never get built! What do YOU think? (oops, forgot to sign this) Saudade7 19:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Would be fun to see up-to-date edit scores for different kinds of people. I have no trouble with numbers and measurements, only with people who tend to misread them and see too much, or too little in them. The trust-score display is a very quick way to quickly direct the eye towards sections that may need more checking than others. Once again, a section that is assigned a low score could actually be really good, which is why you still need human eyeball mk. 1. But computer assistence is never to be disdained -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 19:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe that we can accomplish what we need with software. Cryptoderk used to have software that would let you whitelist and blacklist users for RC Patrol purposes. Each patroller could have their own lists. Another approach might be to tie patrollers' lists together. For instance, you could select other patrollers whose opinion you trust, and have their whitelists and blacklists feed into yours. Sarsaparilla ( talk) 04:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm very sorry if this is similar to the "Requiring photo credits" topic above, but I wanted to handle it in a separate box. Recently an editor uploaded a self-created image under the GFDL license but it had a large and highly visible email watermark on it. An IP editor commented on its talkpage that requiring the watermark went against the philosophy of the free content thing. My first question is, given that it was uploaded under the GFDL, would it be okay within the license to simply edit out the the watermark? Is it enough to attribute the author only on the image description page or must it be kept on the image itself if that's how it was made? • Anakin ( contribs • complaints) 14:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted to the GFDL version without the watermark. This is an appropriately modified version of the original image under the terms of the GFDL. Subsequent uploads of inferior images under unacceptable licences should be removed.- gadfium 19:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes it happens, that an article who is currently a candidate for speedy deletion is also put up on AFD. If that happens, is the speedy deletion process to be discontinued, or can it stay? I couldn't find anything related after a quick look through policy, so please give me a heads-up. Thanks. ~ twsX · T C · Typo-Warning! ~ 21:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The arbcomm recently ruled in this decision that an admin can summarily speedy-delete an article for WP:BLP violations, not just copyright violations. This was recently done in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naftali Tzvi Weisz where the article was speedy-deleted in the middle of an AfD despite the fact that most AfD participants had supported a keep. The deletion was upheld at deletion review. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 05:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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Does WP have a policy someone can point me to about bot-style automated changes to mainspace content?
IPv4_address_exhaustion has a paragraph that appears to be updated by "automated scripts"; the content in question here is a noted networking researcher's predicted date of IP address exhaustion.
If this kind of thing is fine, I'm happy to let it go, but it is at the least a bit irritating (watchlist-wise). --- tqbf 02:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Could someone very familiar with image policy help me? I stumbled across this image, taken by a professional(?) photographer who has allowed many of his images to be used on Wikipedia. The problem is that the photographer appears to be demanding that each one of his images be accompanied by a spammy photo credit that includes a link to his website:
This strikes me as very un-wiki-like, and I dislike seeing external, promotional links in our articles. Are arrangements like this acceptable? If not, what steps should I take?-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back ( talk) 12:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps my response is coming a little late, but I think it would be all right to use these photos (including the attribution in each image caption), at least until ones that are licensed more freely can be found. — Remember the dot ( talk) 02:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Crediting images in the caption is potentially a serious problem - the Creative Commons license requires that attribution be made in a manner no less prominent than the attribution to other contributing authors. So if any image has an inline credit, my read of it is that we have to attribute at least every Creative Commons image that way - and that's obviously bad. -- B ( talk) 05:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
There is some on-going discussion about notability. The common idea being "If it's a real X then it's obviously notable." (where X = river, city, mountain, etc.). This presents a few issues.
When does a "hill", "stream" or "intersection"/"town" become a "mountain", "river" or "town"/"city"? Where I live, there are commonly applied labels that defy any reasonable definition: "_____ Hill" is also called "Mt. _______" in everday speach and in published sources.
My particular situation is showing up under a river discussion Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Valea_Pietrei_Mici_River where the concensous seems to be that it is real and therefore notable. I cannot find anything substantial on this either way. However, given the seemingly broad support for the idea, it would seem to be time to propose a notability guideline for geographic features. Mdsummermsw ( talk) 15:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see a more comprehensive policy for this. I direct users to things such as [ [1]], where there are thousands of one-liner stubs for every little village under the sun with a lack of sources on almost all of them and no indication of noteability. A recent test case AfD had numerous people voting "Keep, places are inherently noteable." But -why- are they noteable? What makes them so? Jtrainor ( talk) 22:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I accept that every town is notable. What about the new page at Prince William, Indiana which says that its subject is an "extinct town"? Is that different from a Ghost town? Accounting4Taste: talk 20:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I propose the loosening or repeal of WP:MYSPACE, on the grounds that we should encourage users to do their social networking here rather than on Facebook, MySpace, etc. My reasoning is that the more people hang out here, the more contributions we may attract; and that it is worth the small amount of extra server overhead to get this benefit. Personal relationships existing outside Wikipedia can blossom into article collaborations. What would it be like if people invited their friends to join WikiProjects the way they invite their friends to join groups and causes on FaceBook today?
Current policy states, "Wikipedia is not an appropriate place to pursue your desire for relationships or sex. User pages that move beyond broad expressions of sexual preference are unacceptable." While the inherent lack of privacy on wikis (i.e. all edits are public) would seem to make them an unlikely place to meet people, I think that this debate is similar to the concept of office romances - while they can be distracting, there is also the potential for positive impacts, including the possibility to: [1]
It's not altogether implausible that people might meet via Wikipedia as the userbase grows and regulations are loosened sufficiently to allow its demographics to change – similarly to how the Internet became a dating scene as it became more popular and utilized by the mainstream.
I think an argument was made awhile ago that excessive userpage contributions/board game playing/similar activities would clog up the Recent Changes page. But isn't there software out there to filter recent changes for that kind of stuff, analogous to what Cryptoderk uses to focus his RC patrol on non-whitelisted users?
The server overhead issue might also be something that could take care of itself. A certain percentage of people who use Wikipedia make donations; as the number of users rises, the number of donations would rise too, assuming a fixed donor-to-user ratio. One might argue, the purpose of Wikimedia is to fund encyclopedia-writing and other useful projects, not social networking. But if the social networking furthers the encyclopedia-writing, then it is just a means to an end, and one worth supporting. Similar arguments could be made about the Internet. Should public universities comprising the internet backbone pay to support computer game downloads and other frivolous transfers? People used to say such activities, if they got out of hand, would pose a threat to the continued existence of the Internet as we know it. But as the Internet's popularity soared, more resources poured in, the technology improved, and many of those things became non-issues.
I say, repeal all restrictions on userpages except for copyvios, libel, and other illegal content. And let people open up shop if they want. Sarsaparilla ( talk) 01:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
In seriousness, I strongly support a loosening of the rigidity of present attitudes towards "social networking" on Wikipedia. Per WP:PERFORMANCE, it is established that we do not need to delete things in order to free up server space. As userspace is not part of the encyclopedia, there is therefore no obvious need to delete anything in userspace unless it is inappropriate, attacks other users, violates copyright, or otherwise brings Wikipedia into disrepute. In some cases, where a user has clearly created an account for the purposes of advertising or of abusing their userspace as a free webhost, it may be appropriate to delete their userpages (through MfD) in order to make it clear that this is not the purpose of Wikipedia. However, where a user is making some beneficial contributions to the encyclopedia, nominating their userpages for deletion just to make a point tends to come over as hostile and aggressive, and more often than not drives the user away, which is detrimental to the encyclopedia, as editors are our most important resource. I don't think we should repeal WP:MYSPACE, as Wikipedia is not a social networking site and this needs to be made clear in policy; however, users should always think twice before nominating someone else's userpages for deletion. It's coercive, aggressive, and rarely results in any benefit to the encyclopedia. Walton One 12:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
A while ago I pointed out that someone had vandalized my comment, in the discussion page about the "Missouri" article, under the topic heading "Missoura". They had inserted the insult "dumb". I removed it, but apparently they later re-inserted the insult, which has now become part of the archived (archive #2) history of the discussion page for "Missouri".
When I pointed out that someone had vandalized my comment, I supposed that this would only have been possible due to a bug. To my surprise, I was informed that the ability of a vandal to edit someone else's remarks on a discussion page, is considered a feature and not a bug. I might add that the arguments/rationale put forth for this policy, were not convincing to me.
(Fast forward a few months...)
Now that the vandalism has been archived, I can't revert it at all! --or at least, not without breaking the admonition to leave archives un-edited.
Does this seem like proof to anybody (other than me) that only the original writer should be able to edit a writer's remarks on a discussion page? Absent such a policy, the implied authorship of any archived material has no credibility, because the archived material may have been vandalized shortly before it was archived. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Publius3 ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Just now, while I was perusing the Wikipedia page on the Wikipedia! I saw this:
Software created by Luca de Alfaro and colleagues at the University of California, Santa Cruz is now being tested that will assign "trust ratings" to individual Wikipedia contributors, with the intention that eventually only edits made by those who have established themselves as "trusted editors" will be made immediately visible. Article
I am just curious to know if anyone else thinks this is a bad idea. My reasoning is that, while there are certainly many people who come to the Wikipedia to vandalize or to make POV or defamatory statements, for the most part I think people make their first edits because they know something and want to share. Then, when they make a contribution there is the *immediate* feedback/pride at having contributed something and seeing it appear right away. It is like the little "food pellet" that makes them want to press the edit "lever" again.
Thus, I think that implementing such a policy would have negative effects on the encyclopaedia's growth. I think if people couldn't see their edits implemented immediately they would fall a little out of love with the process. And while some might argue that this would insure that only people who were "serious" would get to make changes I think that this project was built with 35% seriousness and 65% love and self-satisfaction! As it is, the encyclopaedia has only continued to grow and refine over the years without this policy and the average amount of time an instance of vandalism remains on a given site is 3 minutes. I also think that this would hinder people (like me) who think that one way to build the encyclopedia is to assign underserved stub topic pages to students to build in lieu of term research papers (given that I think kids are more careful and conscientious when they know the whole world is watching). With this new policy that would no longer be a possibility and lots of great articles would never get built! What do YOU think? (oops, forgot to sign this) Saudade7 19:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Would be fun to see up-to-date edit scores for different kinds of people. I have no trouble with numbers and measurements, only with people who tend to misread them and see too much, or too little in them. The trust-score display is a very quick way to quickly direct the eye towards sections that may need more checking than others. Once again, a section that is assigned a low score could actually be really good, which is why you still need human eyeball mk. 1. But computer assistence is never to be disdained -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 19:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe that we can accomplish what we need with software. Cryptoderk used to have software that would let you whitelist and blacklist users for RC Patrol purposes. Each patroller could have their own lists. Another approach might be to tie patrollers' lists together. For instance, you could select other patrollers whose opinion you trust, and have their whitelists and blacklists feed into yours. Sarsaparilla ( talk) 04:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm very sorry if this is similar to the "Requiring photo credits" topic above, but I wanted to handle it in a separate box. Recently an editor uploaded a self-created image under the GFDL license but it had a large and highly visible email watermark on it. An IP editor commented on its talkpage that requiring the watermark went against the philosophy of the free content thing. My first question is, given that it was uploaded under the GFDL, would it be okay within the license to simply edit out the the watermark? Is it enough to attribute the author only on the image description page or must it be kept on the image itself if that's how it was made? • Anakin ( contribs • complaints) 14:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted to the GFDL version without the watermark. This is an appropriately modified version of the original image under the terms of the GFDL. Subsequent uploads of inferior images under unacceptable licences should be removed.- gadfium 19:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes it happens, that an article who is currently a candidate for speedy deletion is also put up on AFD. If that happens, is the speedy deletion process to be discontinued, or can it stay? I couldn't find anything related after a quick look through policy, so please give me a heads-up. Thanks. ~ twsX · T C · Typo-Warning! ~ 21:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The arbcomm recently ruled in this decision that an admin can summarily speedy-delete an article for WP:BLP violations, not just copyright violations. This was recently done in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naftali Tzvi Weisz where the article was speedy-deleted in the middle of an AfD despite the fact that most AfD participants had supported a keep. The deletion was upheld at deletion review. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 05:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)