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I won't get into what's been happening with top-level U.S. state categories lately (as I don't want to treat this like a dispute), but I'd like to know what fellow Wikipedians think. Should we wrap up subcategories for cities, towns, villages, etc. into a top-level category for "settlements" or should we use something like "political subdivisions" or "administrative divisions". All of these connote certain things, but I just wanted to get others' opinions on this. Thanks! Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 17:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes baggage must be discarded for forward movement to happen. A quick google search of 'human settlement' seems to show that this 'is' a collective term for 'cities, towns, and the like'. Please check and also remember English dictionaries are not 'prescriptive', they are 'descriptive' and sometimes take time to catch up to actual usage. Thanks Hmains 02:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
For references, the United Nations Stastical Division uses "locality", which they define here and [2]. More details can be found in the actual Methodology documentation. -- Polaron | Talk 06:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the Canadian practice has generally been to use "communities" as the general parent, and then to group specific types of communities in the appropriate subcategories ("cities", "towns", "townships", "villages", etc.) A "community" that isn't incorporated as a municipality in and of itself, but is instead nested within a larger "community", would be either left directly in "communities", or subcategorized as "communities in (appropriate census division)". Again, not that the US has to use the same categorization scheme, but I offer it as food for thought nonetheless. Bearcat 22:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I think there is enough disagreement on the subject where it would be beneficial at some point in the near future to submit the entire range of "Settlements" categories for renaming consideration. I will offer "Populated places" as a suggestion, but the CfR participants will certainly be free (as always) to come up with their own ideas. Thanks everyone for your contribution to this discussion! Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 20:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Comments are requested on whether this page is still viable. Steve block Talk 15:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Is there a guideline on quality? If not, shouldn't there be one saying that in a nutshell, edits should focus on quality, not churn out numerous edits? Simply south 22:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Is there any official or quasi-offical policy pertaining to this? It.. kind of annoys me when people use the equivalent of Googlefight to argue what name an article should take, or if an article passes notability. Similarly people like to talk about "Alexa rank", which I'm not familiar with. It might not be such a bad thing, but people seem to like using this as their sole argument as to why an article should change, stay the same, be deleted, or whatever. Errick 22:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Is is ok to create a history/corporate page on our company? The name is Clutterbusters!! it is a registered trademark--and the name itself has become synonymous with the service itself (professional organizing)--thus, people may be searching the words "Clutter buster" or "clutterbuster" in an effort to locate a page on professional organizing. I would put a link to the main "professional organizing" page, but the main purpose is to let people know that the term Clutterbuster is a trademarked name. Is that allowable? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rfein1 ( talk • contribs) 18:30, February 1, 2007 (UTC).
I'd almost forgotten that this page existed, frankly. I've been working on tidying up the project namespace, and there's practically no help, and I only recently got linked here, to find people here busily chatting away about all kinds of trivial subjects, blithely unaware that -for instance-- Wikipedia:Consensus has been broken since almost forever, or that the whole policy/guideline/essay/howto/twiddlethumbs/other division is entirely unenlightening, and also broken besides (since pages get mis-marked all the time, and sometimes multiple times, when someone gets the urge to do another Great Re-Tagging).
So my questions are these. Is this page still useful for any real work? (Note that the real work takes digging in old pages, and using your nose to sniff out consensus from the dark little corners of the wiki.). And if so, who's up for it? :-) -- Kim Bruning 08:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
One way in which this page is useful is as a pointer towards the places where actual discussion is going on. As an admin with a fairly peripheral involvement in policy discussions, I find it useful to drop in here from time to time for updates on possible policy changes. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I was wondering if it is against any Wikipedia policy, or more importantly, if it is illegal to mention, in a References in popular culture section some artistic works inspired by another (copyrighted) artistic work. In particular, this Mediation Cabal case on East of Eden has been brewing for nearly a month with only sporadic discussion (and no closure) occurring. East of Eden has been assessed as "Top Importance" by WikiProject Novels, which means it is "a 'core' topic for literature, or is highly notable to people other than students of literature" (from Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Assessment#Importance scale)
Even more specifically, there are certain songs, inspired by this book, that were included in the References in popular culture section that User:Catbird222 removes. Eventually someone else adds them back—I was the one to first do these reverts, providing references to back up that these songs were inspired by the book. However, Catbird222 believes these songs to be copyright infringements, and even further, he claims to actually own the copyrights (see User talk:Catbird222). Regardless, I believe mentioning these songs is acceptable under fair use (both the WP policy and the legal doctrine).
Catbird222 even uses the name of admin User:BradPatrick, though Brad claims in this (archived) Administrators' noticeboard discussion that the invocation of his name is unwarranted in this situation.
The three bold links above are areas where this has been discussed quite a bit. I am refraining from reverting Catbird222's edits until this matter is settled.
− Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 07:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, if Catbird claims to own the rights to East of Eden, then by editing that article he is definitely in violation of WP:COI. If the mediation doesn't go anywhere, just move up the Dispute Resolution ladder. If he keeps up the way he's going, he's going to end up blocked by the ArbCom eventually.-- Aervanath 09:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Just my 2 cents: this reminds me of a similar situation where an editor tried to get all references and links to websites offerin "old time radio" recordings removed from Wikipedia, and in the process started removing links and information that were being used for the specific purposes of fulfilling WP:V. As I understand it, just because something based upon another work is alleged to violate a copyright, that does not disqualify it from inclusion in Wikipedia. It can be mentioned, and if notable enough an article can be created about it, nd if it is the subject of a copyright suit, etc., then that can also be mentioned in the appropriate place -- with proper attribution. Someone coming along and making the claim that such-and-such is a copyvio and must be removed -- when that item is simply being mentioned as factual information, in this case to illustrate cultural references to East of Eden -- is IMO in violation of WP:NPOV and probably other Wikipedia rules and unless, of course, the information being added can be proven as being false, WP:SNOW is also a factor. 23skidoo 21:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi. This is probably going to be my last edit to wikipedia in a long while. Prior to now I've attempted to better the wiki in various ways, and I won't blow my own trumpet about all of them, just check my main-space contributions.
However, I'm now going to go on indefinite leave from the wiki, with no plans to return while it remains in the current state it is.
Over the past couple of months, I've experienced bullying from a couple of admins who appear genuinely well intentioned, but don't get that what they are doing is bad. They see things through the coloured lenses where disagreement is trolling, warning to remain civil is a personal attack, and everyone except them is edit warring and being disruptive. It's their way, or the highway. I came to their attention for disagreeing with their positions a few times, and thus earning accusations of ill intent and threat of blocks.
The problem, I think, is rooted in Editcountitis. Despite claims to the otherwise, Edit Count is still the primary decision maker in who gets to be an Admin. And what kind of editor has a large edit count? The kind of editor who edit wars over things to get their way. And of course, once appointed admin, they believe their behaviour has been vetted, so their way of doing things is 'the wikipedia way'.
Tag on the continuing belief of some admins that they are 'the best and brightest' of Wikipedia, and need special privileges such as private official IRC channels and a 'get out of jail free' card for personal attacks... And Wikipedia is going to end up turning into an isolationist and exclusionary club, and otherwise long term editors are going to drop out because of it.
I hope that this trend is reversed, that bullying is no longer accepted on wikipedia, that admin accept they are taking on responsibility not being awarded power. Till then, bye. The vast majority of you have all been fantastic and do a good job. But there's no longer a climate for me that I can edit without being bullied. -- Barberio 23:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Barberio, if you choose to leave, that's your call...but I'd recommend taking the personal attacks off your user and user talk pages. -- Milo H Minderbinder 13:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but why doesn't Wikipedia require people to register? I bet 90% of the vandalism on here comes from IP users, and if they were required to register before they edit it would stop a lot of that, and make many, many peoples' work a lot easier. Why don't they do this? It would still be an encyclopedia anybody could edit. -- AW 23:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Another thing that it is impossible to track are how many of those anonymous IP edits are just the first edits of a future registered user. If it weren't so easy to edit, how many of them would actually sign up to be editors? We don't actually know. Maybe it's none. Maybe it's quite a few. Meh. "Vandals, you can't live with 'em...pass the beer nuts."-- Aervanath 09:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
There recently has been some reverting over Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, specifically changes from the previous wording "If you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid editing articles related to you..." to "...you are strongly discouraged from avoid editing articles related to you..." and similar variations on that wording (most with grammar that isn't so bad). Personally I feel the proposed wordings have been more lenient and an unnecessary weakening of the guideline (particularly in light of recent events). New opinions would be welcome. -- Milo H Minderbinder 17:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just a little question: can we use the English Wikipedia as a source for articles in other languages? I thought I had seen a page listing all the possible sources that could be used for Wikipedia, and the English Wikipedia was listed in the category wiki. Thanks in advance, Zouavman Le Zouave ( Talk to me! • O)))) 10:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
It really depends on the policy on the foreign-language Wikipedia. On the English Wikipedia, we don't like to use tertiary sources (see WP:SOURCE) for our articles. Since encyclopedias are tertiary sources, we do not generally use foreign-language Wikipedias as sources. Your Wikipedia may have a different policy, though. -- Aervanath 08:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I have an image I'd like to scan and include in an article. The image appeared in Harper's Weekly in 1900, but the book where I found it reprinted was published in 1977. The image, being over 100 years old, should be out of copyright, but the book is clearly still in copyright. If I scan the picture from the book, which copyright status is applicable, that of the image, or that of the book? Acdixon 00:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to all for this great advice! It was extremely helpful. Acdixon 15:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I am a contributor to and an editor of The Technique. In developing its wiki entry, I uploaded Image:The Technique 12-01-2006.jpg, and placed that image in a "gallery" on my userpage. Given that I therefore own partial copyright of the picture, do I have rights to use it on my userpage? Does it make any difference that the "use" in question is a thumbnail? See additional discussion on my talk page: User talk:Disavian#Fair use images aren't allowed in user pages. Thank you. — Disavian ( talk/ contribs) 01:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
FYI: My concern is how does Disavian prove he is a copyright owner? Without, isn't the entire discussion mute? Will ( Talk - contribs) 06:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The image has been removed, by the way. I think I've seen some pretty convincing arguments that I can't do it. — Disavian ( talk/ contribs) 02:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the rule is that fair use images can't be used outside the main namespace at all. Durin told me this we can't even allow fair use images on the talk pages of articles and any templates out there -- even ones that will never be used outside articles. So I would expect User talk pages to be a no-no. Will ( Talk - contribs) 06:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Disavian, if you were able to get the Editor in Chief, or whoever owns the copyright (I think it would normally be the Publisher, not the Editor in Chief, although your Editor in Chief may be both) to agree to release the image under the GFDL, then there would be no problem with using it anywhere on Wikipedia.-- Aervanath 21:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
What is the best article to link on when trying to explain about WP:CV to new editors? Soemthing nice, simple and concise (or at least, something they'll read so I don't have to summarize it all on their talk page). RJFJR 23:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The essay I have written is called: Wikipedia:Essays are not policy. I have written in as an attempt to explain what essays are and are not, and how to respond to those who use them and you don't agree with the essay. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Can an article ever be considered complete, and if so, would restriction in editing be considered to ensure that an article doesn't reach a peak and then decline due to sneaky vandalism/sabotage etc? Of course if someone has something to add to a "completed" article, a suitabley ranked Wikipedian could be trusted to implement the addition. I just think it would be nice, once an article is decidedly finished, to not have to spend resources keeping it in good shape and to concentrate on something else. -- Seans Potato Business 04:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand the intent behind our policies NPA and CIVIL; we need to be able to discuss matters politely in order to work together. Unfortunately some people interpret those policies to mean that we must respect each other. Now, I am not the kind of person to give respect lightly; I believe respect has to be earned. It is also easy for me to be nice to someone who clearly respects me.
The problem is when I run into a user who is both arrogant and an idiot. There is no way to work with, or even communicate with, such a person; they are too dumb to know what they are talking about and too full of themselves to learn from their mistakes. Generally I give up all hope of interacting productively with such a person and take pleasure in pointing out their stupidity.
I can't simply pretend such people don't exist. And if I wanted to grit my teeth and play politics with them I could get paid a whole lot of money in a real job. Is there any hope for me in Wikipedia? -- Ideogram 07:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you all for your replies. You have given me much to think about. -- Ideogram 22:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, Ideogram, you might want to think about this: Treating someone like they are an idiot is almost as bad as just calling them an idiot. While you may not respect someone, treating other people with respect, even if you don't feel that way, is more likely to earn the respect and cooperation of your fellow Wikipedia editors, which means we are more likely to take your opinion seriously in any discussion. Treating another editor with disrespect is the fastest way I know of lose a debate.-- Aervanath 18:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Seriously. At the time of writing two articles that are having their GA status reviewed are The Beatles and Shakespeare; two of the most searched subjects on the internet! Two subjects that may well be the avenue by which a surfer will come into contact with this site... Well done, folks!! Anyone searching for these subjects will find that Wikipedia aren't sure that the article is actually any good. For those that look a little deeper, it appears that the efforts of new editors are detrimental to the standards that Wikipedia promotes. This may have the effect that new editors are discouraged, that the perception of Wikipedia is tarnished, and that the efforts of regular contributors are hindered by those editors who feel that style is everything and that content and context is irrelevant.
I agree that standards are good, and that the vast majority of articles are (or would be) improved by the strict application of same. It is just that a few are not, or perhaps more correctly are beyond the practice of academic due process. I like to call these articles "flagships", those topics that are likely to attract readers, excite interest in interacting within Wikipedia, encourage editing (no matter how clumsy) and generally bring people into the concept.
These few (very few!) should be exempt from the the usual visible checks and measures. Do not place templates on the talk page, recording the decline from FA class to GA to B grade, make WP:Peer review a condition before putting the article to review (to enable flaws to be addressed). Make it understood that a page that attracts possibly scores of edits, some from new editors or IP addresses, in a day is unlikely to ever be devoid of mistakes in both content or style.
It is in the nature of the beast, the popular article, the majority of it will be mostly right most of the time. An energetic article will constantly be updated, reviewed, corrected, tagged, cited, vandalised, reverted, rewritten, polished, split, added to, subtracted from and generally interacted with. Sometimes on a daily basis. To take an arbitary example of an article and say, "this is not to the standard by which it was once judged, and should have its status revoked" is stupid, pointless and insulting. It is made by editors who are (despite their commendable enthusiasm and diligence) stupid, rather pointless and liable to insult those contributors to major topics with their nitpicking and arrogant, superior attitudes. Perhaps my original premise was wrong; it is the editors who inhabit the FAR and GAR that are the enemy of the ethos of Wikipedia, in attempting to raise the standard they disavow the achievements and struggles of those who have spent time and effort in creating and expanding Wikipedia articles.
I suggest that the 20 (or perhaps 50) articles that aggregate the most edits (including vandalism, which suggest topicality and/or general familiarity if nothing else) over a year should be declared Flagship Articles, and not be subject to the petty referrals and overzealous Wiki policy police edits some other articles are subject. They should have an extra layer of protection from the misguided fools who prefer to concentrate on the placement of blank spaces before or after specific type of text, who will reduce a 10,000 character article into a question of consistency in the spelling of a couple of words. As in law, sometimes the argument that there is a case to answer needs to be made before the case is allowed to proceed.
If the flagship articles are not protected from the WikiZealots, then every FA or GA article will be arcane excercises in subjects that few will be engaged by and the very concept of The Encyclopedia That Anyone Can Edit will be in trouble. LessHeard vanU 00:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Generally, when I personally suggest on a talk page that something is wrong instead of fixing it myself, it's because I'm seeking the opinion (or lack of it) of other editors working on a page before changing it. On a high traffic page this is a significant step in avoiding horribe edit wars and the likes where the current "residents" at an article may be defensive of the status quo. By discussing the problem, people can see why a change is needed and a consensus can be reached.
The article review and grading process is the only form of "quality control" that wikipedia has. It's also the only outward looking indication of the quality of an article, or for that matter, an inward looking indication to editors of what kind of work an article needs. The peer review process is merely a way of getting input from uninvolved and usually experienced editors as to what an articles faults are. The GAR and FAR are much the same, but also look at whether an article continues to meet the criteria for those levels of grading. Quite imply, if the criteria for FA or GA aren't met, then the article isn't FA or GA, and needs work to bring it back to that standard. The reviews offer advice on how to go about doing just that. Crimsone 09:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
LessHeard vanU, could you please assume good faith? To call editors who are attempting to improve the encyclopaedia "stupid" and "rather pointless", and accuse them of having "nitpicking and arrogant, superior attitudes" is hardly being civil. Most articles which go through FAR and GAR are improved by the process, even if they are eventually demoted. Isn't that the most important thing, that the quality has been improved? Classifying articles into quality groups is useful and encouraging to editors who work hard on articles, but it is hardly the most important aspect of Wikipedia. And yes, when new editors come to FAs, most changes they make are not an improvement. While we shouldn't bite, we shouldn't allow them to degrade the quality either. Trebor 12:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
i.e. "semi protection" from reflex referral. Also the (provisional) passing of an article with cavaets, allowing an article which is otherwise FA/GA to get/keep the accolade while determining what needs to be done to ensure it is retained. "Entry-point page" is as valid a description of "Flagship Article" as is one which relies on edit count. LessHeard vanU 14:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)not easier to pass but an acknowledgement that those processes may not always be appropriate for a very few articles in Wikipedia, and that another level of referral/review may be necessary before going to FAR/GAR.
The GA review of William Shakespeare is a mistake--it is a very good article and with a little work could be a featured article. The person who nominated the article for GA review was mistaken in his/her concerns, as evidenced by the fact that no one else has supported the removal. The article is also extremely stable and well referenced. While there is still room for improvement, any one whose first exposure to Wikipedia is the Shakespeare article is not getting a bum rush. I also agree with the previous comment about how too many editors pop onto a page, leave comments about what is wrong with the article, then don't stick around and actually help improve it. Shakespeare was on the Wikipedia:Article Creation and Improvement Drive a half year ago and even that wasn't enough to get other editors to pitch in and help. Anyway, this is a very good article which a core group of editors has worked on for a good while. Instead of bellyaching about how some high-profile articles should be better, how about actually helping to improve them?-- Alabamaboy 15:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow. Wow. Setting a double standard like this will only deterioate the quality of the encyclopedia; this will encourage people to vandalize and do other crap to the article so it can hit the "top 100" most edited/viewed article and thus be "exempt" from having to mantain a certain standard of quality. The fact that all articles are subject to the same policies is what keeps the quality of the encyclopedia from going down. There are no exceptions. Many Featured articles promoted in 2003 and 2004 do not have any in-line citations and are generally of poor quality. It hurts Wikipedia more to say that Ridge Route is of the same quality that V for Vendetta (film) is when the former is clearly worse than the latter. Besides that, most readers do not visit the talk page, and the only indication of an FA is a little icon on the upper-right hand side of the screen. The GA logo was obliterated awhile back due to a lack of strong, formal procedure for GAs (anybody can promote GAs; FAs have to go through WP:FAC). My trust of the article comes if it has an accurate in-line citation or not, not whether it has been promoted to FA status or the rather arbitrary GA status. Hbdragon88 00:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the most viewed articles should be the ones that are held to the highest standards. What would tarnish the image of Wikipedia is if these frequently-viewed articles were reviewed less stringently than others. Having more people viewing an article does mean more checks and balances, but it also means more vandalism, more well-meaning but ultimately harmful edits, and more small edits adding pieces of useful information that are nonetheless not well cited or well integrated into the article. You only have to look at articles that have had their day on the front page to see that scrutiny by the masses is a double-edged sword. There is a reason why featured articles tend to arrive at that state because of the devoted hard work of a small number of contributors. "Flagship" articles need extra vigilance, not less. MLilburne 21:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but it just seems silly to suggest that GAR or FAR are "petty referrals". Also, I fail to understand what sort of catastrophic repercussions you think GAR can have on new editors. Let's see: new editor looks up the Beatles entry. New editor is so fascinated that he reads the talk page, finds the article is under Good article review and thinks "that's odd, I thought the article was really good." And if we're to believe your concerns new editor now thinks "jeez, I'm not going to participate in this project because the standards of quality are way too high". Come on... If anything, ensuring quality articles is going to bring us more quality editors. Wikipedia had the early reputation of a great place to find unreferenced, poorly organized and poorly written piles of info. Thanks in part to the GA and FA processes, it's emerging as a real alternative to paper and other commercial encyclopedias. I don't see how anything is to be gained by hiding these. Pascal.Tesson 22:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
My point was, and remains, that the application of both GA and FA and their (different) processes run contrary to the ethos of The Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit, in that the good faith contributions by editors are liable for removal and amendment against standards of which the new and/or careless editor is not aware. My suggestion is that Wikipedia may be better served by having a very few of the most popular and thus edited articles have a further level of debate where editors expressing a view that a review may be necessary can discuss this on the article talkpage which would include said naive editors (who may become dismayed and demoralised should they believe that their contributions were the reason for referral - at the very least they can be reassured) before beginning such processes if then deemed necessary. These articles may be termed Flagships. As an aside, I also supported the option of deeming articles a pass with a caveat regarding some easily corrected matter which would have otherwise failed.
I realise now by the opinions expressed here that my viewpoint and proposals are not going to gain sufficient backing to take any further, and that the status quo remains regarded as the best or least worst option. I would like to thank everybody who took part in this, and the civil manner in which it was conducted (as opposed to the intemperate manner in which it was introduced!) I now withdraw this policy discussion point, although I will attempt to answer any queries arising. Thank you. LessHeard vanU 22:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
That isn't what is said on the front page.Wikipedia is the Encyclopedia that anyone who can make an article better can edit...
Anyone searching for these subjects will find that Wikipedia aren't sure that the article is actually any good. For those that look a little deeper, it appears that the efforts of new editors are detrimental to the standards that Wikipedia promotes. This may have the effect that new editors are discouraged, that the perception of Wikipedia is tarnished, and that the efforts of regular contributors are hindered by those editors who feel that style is everything and that content and context is irrelevant.
Bless WP:GAR, bless WP:FAR, bless Wikipedia, and bless WP:IAR. Goodnight! LessHeard vanU 23:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC) (bless)
replacementdocs has tons of game documentation for all kinds of computers and consoles from the past 30 years. So I thought it would be worth sharing that site with Wikipedia visitors by adding an External Link under various classic computer and console articles to the associated file section at replacementdocs.
My thought was that this fit in line with many of the other External Links on the pages of these articles. For example, there is a External Link to the appropriate section of AtariAge on virtually all of the Atari articles (Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Atari Jaguar, etc).
As I was posting these links, User:Luna Santin blocked my IP and reverted my edits claiming it was spam. I make the argument that there is a lot of useful information on that site, and that some people wouldn't even know that an archive like that existed if it weren't linked from these general computer/console articles.
Any other opinions on the matter? Casimps1 21:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This sounds like something that should be taken up over at WP:COPYVIO.-- Aervanath 18:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
This is something I've been wondering for a little while, which was brought to the forefront of my mind by a recent RfB, and I haven't been able to find an answer to it yet: Why are username changes a bureaucrat function, and not a sysop function? I know admins already have too much to do, but bureaucrats are sysops too, and it seems to me that if sysops are trusted with everything they are already at this point, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to do username changes as well without an additional level of access. (Admin promotions and bot flagging are different matters in my mind.) I don't believe there's any harm to doing this unless there's a good technical reason why it's bureaucrat-only. I could see it being a small help. (Admin blocks user for username, blocked user requests different name, admin handles it on the spot.) There's probably a good reason why it's a bureaucrat function, but can someone tell me what that is? Grand master ka 08:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I've expressed my concerns about a recent expansion to this template on the talk page. I went over to WP:RFC, but it looks like those are for articles. I'm posting here in hopes that some others can comment on the expansion. BuddingJournalist 04:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
So, can a photoshop of a copyrighted picture really be released into public domain? It doesn't seem like that's right. Milto LOL pia 02:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I request everyone's input regarding this idea, to create a hall of fame to celebrate the editors who've made lasting, non-revertable contribution to the Wikipedia project and deserve some permanent form of recognition, which may serve as an inspiration to the growing community of newer editors. Rama's arrow 18:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
We already have this mechanism, actually. If you think an editor is doing a good job, just give them a Barn Star. It's that simple.-- Aervanath 07:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone chime in at the discussion over at User:ShakespeareFan00/Food_and_Drink_Notability_Guidelines, especially on the talk page there? Thanks. Xiner ( talk, email) 16:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Category:Pilgrim route was for all pilgrimmage routes, but recently someone took the Way of St. James out of this category because they claimed it only applied to pilgrimmage routes in Norway. This sounds a bit strange to me. Comments?-- Filll 04:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
What group is responsible for these decisions?-- Filll 05:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe there are many problems with the current COI page, the most salient one being ambiguity (the page states both that editors with a COI should and should not edit), and a second being that the description as consensus seems rather debatable (I and may other editors have allowed, even encouraged, editors affiliated with their corporations, to engage in constructive editing.) Can we begin a discussion on this at the COI page? I have attempted to begin one, but three editors have refused to engage in substantive discussion (their essential point being that the consensus is settled and the matter's final.)
I encourage editors with opinions on the matter to begin a discussion on the WP:COI talk page. Sdedeo ( tips) 05:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand that there is a policy on WP to keep article sizes under 40kb. I request that this limit be increased in special cases like articles about countries. I say this because, articles about countries need to cover a wide gamut of issues (geography,history, politics, ethnicities, cuisine, architecture etc etc etc). Long list actually. And each of these subtopics is worth its own dedicated fork.
So following 'summary style' becomes very difficult especially when new content and information keeps getting added. It is also leading to futile edit wars with reams and reams of futile discussion on talk pages. India for example, is facing this issue at the moment with a relatively new user, reverting content at sight and then hiding behind spurious 'article size' compulsions when others demand an explanation for his reverts.
So my suggestion is that article size be wedded to say, the number of forks that an article has. I would rather an article run into hundreds of kilobytes than the discussion page.
If this is not possible, I feel we should simply lock an article forever once it reaches its size limit or gets featured status. That way, new editors to wp will be spared the pain of adding content in good faith to an article only for it to get blanked out because the article has gone 1 KB over the limit. Sarvagnya 17:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
What is policy regarding deletion of comments in a persons userpage talk space. I was under the impression that you should only ever archive old comments, and deletion was, if not disallowed, heavily frowned on. An anonymous user User talk:203.87.64.214, repeatidly deletes all the comments on his page. Including comments made by me in a current dispute. Several editors have told him that you shouldn't delete comments on a talk page (though only one was regarding his own talk page) and I believe the intention is to make it appear on first glances that he's just a newbie even though by his edit history he's been here since February. Or make it appear that he's never been involved in a conflict of interests. Jacobshaven3 11:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no clear policy on that. The policy on vandalism is poorly written and implies that you can do whatever you want with your talk page, but does not say that clearly. Because of that, some admins give warnings and blocks for removing comments from your talk page, and other admins tell you that you can do whatever you want. The policy that is applied, or misapplied, depending on your interpretation is in Wikipedia:Vandalism
Removing the comments of other users from talk pages other than your own, aside from removing internal spam, vandalism, etc. is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is often considered legitimate, and it is considered acceptable to archive an overly long talk page by creating an archive page and moving the text from the main talk page there. The above rules do not apply to a user's own talk page, where this policy does not itself prohibit the removal and archival of comments at the user's discretion. Please note, though, that removing warnings from one's own talk page is often frowned upon.
Generally people read the first sentence, stop, and interpret that as an okay to blank your talk page. Others read the whole paragraph, and read it differently. It would be nice if someone would rewrite this clearly.
How about:
Your user and talk pages are a community resource. HOwever, removing comments from your talk page is always fine. Removing warnings from your own talk page indicates that you have read the warnings, and is allowed. Removing comments from other users talk pages is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is considered legitimate. It is considered acceptable to archive an overly long talk page by creating an archive page and moving the text from the main talk page there. On a user's own talk page archival of comments is at the user's discretion.
OR
Your user and talk pages are a community resource. Removing comments or warnings from your your own talk page is considered to be vandalism, as a record of warnings can be used by administrators in making decisions, or in showing that Wikipedia has done due diligence in trying to prevent certain activities. Removing comments from other talk pages is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is considered legitimate. It is considered acceptable to archive an overly long talk page by creating an archive page and moving the text from the main talk page there.
Atom 02:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Funday PawPet Show survived Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Funday pawpet show. Now there's a second AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Funday PawPet Show, but shouldn't it have "(second nomination)" in the URL? -- EarthFurst 07:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have opened up a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#Proposal_to_alter_the_criteria_for_listing_dates_of_birth concerning altering and clarifying when dates of birth for biographies of living people should be used. New voices to the discussion would be helpful. Thanks. Cowman109 Talk 16:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose that "trolling" not be allowed as a justification for removing other people's comments from talk pages.
Different people differ about what constitutes trolling. An editor who takes action to revert "trolling" is implicitly asserting that his opinion speaks for the group. Often the original poster does not agree that his words are trolling. Often the editor who removes the "trolling" is already opposed to the original poster.
Thoughts? -- Ideogram 01:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Problem there: Many of the real and unmistakable trolls we get here (*coughconspiracytheoristidiotscough*) do need to be removed, and there is no justification other than that they are trolling. Leaving their comments risks them actually convincing someone of their lunacy. -- tjstrf talk 02:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Many troll postings are extremely verbose, if we are not allowed to remove them then the talk page would soon become unreadable. Some trolling is extremely inflammatory and makes people's participation on the uncomfortable. I agree that in the most cases DFTT is the best defence. Alex Bakharev 03:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Let's talk about a concrete example. in Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2006/Candidate statements/Questions for Paul August#Questions from Cyde Weys you will see mention of an edit war over whether a question constituted trolling or not. You can check the edit history for the details. This one went so far as wheel-warring. Ultimately Jimbo himself stepped in and asked everyone to calm down. How do you think this situation could have been avoided? -- Ideogram 22:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Anyone interested in this issue I would ask you to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:What is a troll. I have tried to edit this essay to discourage usage of the term and am being opposed by an editor who (not surprisingly) thinks I am a troll. -- Ideogram 19:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
If i upload an image, if its published before 1923 or something related do i need a source present? Nareklm 03:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
There's currently discussion on the relationship between use of indefinite blocks and community bans at Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_Blocks. -- Barberio 21:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Since the relation between those two categories is more or less hierarchical, wouldn't it be an applicable idea if articles defeatured for some reason would automatically acquire the status of a Good Article? That is, though they wouldn't satisfy the higher criteria of a FA, they would certainly satisfy those of a GA. This would leave more space in the GA nominations page for other articles to be considered, while at the same time the defeatured articles wouldn't suddenly find themselves outside, or too low in, the grading structure. — The Duke of Waltham 16:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be easier for the process to give defeatured articles priority in some way, though? — The Duke of Waltham 07:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Just a note to say that I've made a proposal at Wikipedia talk:Username#Latin character transliterations to require transliterations on non-latin usernames for various reasons, spelled out in the post. Please discuss on that talk page. pschemp | talk 18:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
WikiProject Current Local City Time is proposing at their talk page that articles for prominent cities be moved to include subnational units.For example, Toronto would be moved to Toronto, Ontario.This would result in a de facto change to naming conventions for settlements, which provides (at least for Canada) that:
Your contribution to this discussion would be most welcome. - Joshuapaquin 05:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I will admit that I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the image policies.I write/de-stub a lot of articles about living composers.As everyone knows, it can be tough to find free images of living people who are not super famous and in every tabloid.If there is a publicity headshot of a composer on the website of s/his publisher, and that same publicity shot is reproduced across the net whenever you do an image search for him/her, is it within the fair use criteria to use that piture in and only in the article about the composer?Always yes, always no? Please advise! Thanks- Dmz5 *Edits* *Talk* 20:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
but the
Wikipedia fair-use policy, which is intentionally stricter than U.S. copyright law, does require this.
A discussion on Laura Bush's/Barack Obama's smoking/attempts to quit smoking led me to begin an essay/potential guideline on the topic of including smoking within biographical articles.The participation of the editors here would be appreciated. Italiavivi 01:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
There is an ongoing discussion, whether or not individual capitalizaion for personal names or stage names (like all-lowercase or other variations) should be carried over to Wikipedia, given that an explicit exception from Wikipedia:Proper names#Personal names does not exist, while on the other hand there is a related policy ( Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)) which in most cases suggest a conversion to standard English formatting.
The discussion sparked at Talk:Hide (musician), has since been carried over to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (capital letters) but also somewhat stagnated, so I decided to post here, in order to attract more input. - Cyrus XIII 21:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm having trouble finding a policy on quoting text from the Bible.In particular, I'm trying to clean up the articles about individual Psalms in the Bible.These are in category "Psalms", eg Psalm 51.Most of these articles include the full text of the Psalm in at least one version of the Bible, mostly English, with a few Hebrew ones too.Should the text of the Psalm appear as a big lump in the article -- isn't the article about the Psalm, rather than the Psalm itself.This would be the case for poetry, wouldn't it?If there's a policy I've missed, please point me to it.Once I start editing, rather than stand on toes, I would like to be able to point to a policy that says, "this is how we do it".Thanks in advance. Bernard S. Jansen 11:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to propose a radical change, which I know will be ignored/dismissed by the majority of editors, as it would involve a fundamental restructuring of Wikipedia. However, hear me out. I think WP:NOTE should be abolished. I participate regularly in AfDs and newpage patrolling, and don't agree with the policy administered there. My plan is this:
I'm in an edit war at Shilpa Shetty, with an editor who insists on restoring a para about her being hired to do advertising for a vodka company, which he names. He thinks that it's newsworthy, and a great honor for her, that she's been selected as a "brand ambassador" for this brand of vodka. I don't think it's notable at all; celebrities have been endorsing this and that, for pay, since the 19th century and perhaps earlier. I keep removing the booze ad, or cutting it down to one sentence with no mention of the brand (but with a link to a press release that does mention it), and he keeps restoring the para on vodka, with a long quote from the press release. He says that WP doesn't have any policy that prohibits mention of celebrity endorsements. I think it's covered by our "no commercial advertising" stance. If we allow celebrity endorsements to justify in-article ads for named companies, the camel has its nose under the tent.
The problem is that I know we don't accept advertising, or allow linkspam, but I can't find a policy on mentioning celebrity endorsements in an article. Do we need to make a policy? I'd suggest something like "we don't mention celebrity endorsements unless they become controversial enough to rate extensive coverage in the regular news media".For instance, if Prince Charles were to endorse a brand of tampon and a brouhaha ensued :) Zora 06:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see a reason why listing endorsements made by a given celebrity on that celebrity's article is a problem.It doesn't constitute advertising since it's only stating facts.If it said something to the effect of "Celebrity X endorsed product Y because product Y is a great product" then that would need to go, but simply stating that "Celebrity X endorsed product Y in an advertising campaign" is fine as it's a relevant peice of information about that person's career.Of course, this should only get a passing mention; there shouldn't be a whole paragraph or section on it.A simple list of products endorsed is sufficient. -- The Way 22:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
With a million and half articles, of course there's lots of stuff that is bad. I'm arguing that mentioning endorsements, and in particular naming the company, is letting WP be used for advertising. I'd apply this across the board, to all the celebrity articles. The only exception should be for advertising that does become controversial or extremely notable. Zora 23:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I have been away from Wikipedia because of connection problems at home. For me this is a complete non-issue because of the ridiculous arguments presented about "advertising". For the record, the term "brand ambassador" means nothing at all and is the term used in the source articles. It only means that the celebrity in question has been employed to be the "face" of Romanov Vodka, it is nothing at all about advertisement pushing or whatever the problem is about. It's like saying that Kate Moss is the face of Rimmel or Burberry (which is why they dropped her during that cocaine fiasco). If the term "brand ambassador" is quoted in the source to denote Shilpa Shetty's position, what's the problem with quoting the source on Wikipedia. If other editors (such as Zora, etc.) have a problem with this use of language then they are better advised to take their protests to the publications which used that term. In my view this is not a problem for Wikipedia. Ekantik talk 16:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I generally agree with The Way's views here; a celebrity's advertising campaigns do not have to be controversial to gain a mention in Wikipedia, but it is perfectly OK to mention their campaigns/endorsements as part of their career. For example, everyone knows that Michael Jackson's hair caught fire when he was filming for a Pepsi commercial. According to the No-Adverts Group, this should be rewritten in some vague way like: "Michael Jackson's hair caught fire when he was filming a commercial for a famous soft-drinks company." As you can see, it doesn't have quite the same effect as being succint. I can only shudder to think how many pages people have slaughtered in this way. The other issue is that, without trying to blow my own trumpet, I have been responsible for around 90% of the content of the article as it was in an extremely poor state before I started working on it. Just a couple of facts and an incomplete filmography. Thus, I was the one who ran around trying to find out reliable sources about the celebrity and rewrite the article so it is far improved now, including about this Romanov Vodka issue. I find that this whole issue of repeatedly deleting content (without even bothering to discuss it adequately on the talk page) shows disrespect to the contributions of other editors to Wikipedia, not to mention that non-existent policies have been quoted to justify such removal. Ekantik talk 17:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should remove all unsourced claims of endorsement from biographies of living people; see discussion here. Postdlf 16:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
You need an unbiased source for both the fact itself and the importance (noteability or encyclopedic-ness) of the fact. A press release is pert of the advertizing campaign and is not a NPOV source for establishing the importance although it can usually be used to help establish the fact. But with only a press release we have no neutral wording available and get stuff like "endorsement" instead of "agreed to be paid to lie about this product" (sometimes a more accurate assessment). WAS 4.250 17:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I was planning on working through our articles on writers. I was going to use those 'year in literature links', eg 1939 in literature, but with a pipe, so that just the year appears, eg 1939.
I felt that this would be an especially useful thing to do for the year of publication of a writer's works, since clicking then brings up other works released that year. And if you use such links for dates of birth and death, clicking brings up other writers born/deceased in those years.
However, I figured I'd better check I was doing the right thing. I started out by looking at two literature featured articles; Samuel Beckett and Robert A. Heinlein. Neither of those articles seem to favour linking the years at all, let alone specifically.
I checked out the relevant bit of the style guide: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), but that doesn't seem to help on this point.
Any advice? I'm rather keen on my approach, but I'm made uncertain by looking at the Featured Articles. -- bodnotbod 20:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Discussion closed, please do not feed the trolls. |
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The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. |
On Wikipedia I have seen a small number of users who committed what was called vandalism, and, I feel, it was vandalism. However, the users managed to argue that what they had done was not vandalism, and that the deletion was wrong. Out of curiosity, what is policy when it is not possible to argue that an edit should be deleted due to a very cunning argument? 152.78.254.245 15:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
(undent) I'd say "elegantly phrased for your very first post to Wikipedia", but it wasn't a particularly elegantly phrased (or persuasive).Do you plan to stay long, or are you just waiting for someone to run checkuser? -- John Broughton | (♫♫) 19:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
|
I have submitted a proposal that the new user warning templates at Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace should remain semi-protected and not become permanently fully protected at some point.For those interested, please discuss at Wikipedia talk:High-risk templates#Proposal to keep new user messages semi-protected only. Thank you, Satori Son 03:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone tell me why anonymous users are not allowed to create new articles? Doesn't this strongly hinder the accessibility of the projecy? / Lokal _ Profil 02:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has started up at the talk page at Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion about the possibility of a test run of switching CSD A7 to Prod.Please check the talk page for further discussion. -- badlydrawnjeff talk 18:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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I won't get into what's been happening with top-level U.S. state categories lately (as I don't want to treat this like a dispute), but I'd like to know what fellow Wikipedians think. Should we wrap up subcategories for cities, towns, villages, etc. into a top-level category for "settlements" or should we use something like "political subdivisions" or "administrative divisions". All of these connote certain things, but I just wanted to get others' opinions on this. Thanks! Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 17:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes baggage must be discarded for forward movement to happen. A quick google search of 'human settlement' seems to show that this 'is' a collective term for 'cities, towns, and the like'. Please check and also remember English dictionaries are not 'prescriptive', they are 'descriptive' and sometimes take time to catch up to actual usage. Thanks Hmains 02:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
For references, the United Nations Stastical Division uses "locality", which they define here and [2]. More details can be found in the actual Methodology documentation. -- Polaron | Talk 06:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the Canadian practice has generally been to use "communities" as the general parent, and then to group specific types of communities in the appropriate subcategories ("cities", "towns", "townships", "villages", etc.) A "community" that isn't incorporated as a municipality in and of itself, but is instead nested within a larger "community", would be either left directly in "communities", or subcategorized as "communities in (appropriate census division)". Again, not that the US has to use the same categorization scheme, but I offer it as food for thought nonetheless. Bearcat 22:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I think there is enough disagreement on the subject where it would be beneficial at some point in the near future to submit the entire range of "Settlements" categories for renaming consideration. I will offer "Populated places" as a suggestion, but the CfR participants will certainly be free (as always) to come up with their own ideas. Thanks everyone for your contribution to this discussion! Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 20:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Comments are requested on whether this page is still viable. Steve block Talk 15:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Is there a guideline on quality? If not, shouldn't there be one saying that in a nutshell, edits should focus on quality, not churn out numerous edits? Simply south 22:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Is there any official or quasi-offical policy pertaining to this? It.. kind of annoys me when people use the equivalent of Googlefight to argue what name an article should take, or if an article passes notability. Similarly people like to talk about "Alexa rank", which I'm not familiar with. It might not be such a bad thing, but people seem to like using this as their sole argument as to why an article should change, stay the same, be deleted, or whatever. Errick 22:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Is is ok to create a history/corporate page on our company? The name is Clutterbusters!! it is a registered trademark--and the name itself has become synonymous with the service itself (professional organizing)--thus, people may be searching the words "Clutter buster" or "clutterbuster" in an effort to locate a page on professional organizing. I would put a link to the main "professional organizing" page, but the main purpose is to let people know that the term Clutterbuster is a trademarked name. Is that allowable? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rfein1 ( talk • contribs) 18:30, February 1, 2007 (UTC).
I'd almost forgotten that this page existed, frankly. I've been working on tidying up the project namespace, and there's practically no help, and I only recently got linked here, to find people here busily chatting away about all kinds of trivial subjects, blithely unaware that -for instance-- Wikipedia:Consensus has been broken since almost forever, or that the whole policy/guideline/essay/howto/twiddlethumbs/other division is entirely unenlightening, and also broken besides (since pages get mis-marked all the time, and sometimes multiple times, when someone gets the urge to do another Great Re-Tagging).
So my questions are these. Is this page still useful for any real work? (Note that the real work takes digging in old pages, and using your nose to sniff out consensus from the dark little corners of the wiki.). And if so, who's up for it? :-) -- Kim Bruning 08:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
One way in which this page is useful is as a pointer towards the places where actual discussion is going on. As an admin with a fairly peripheral involvement in policy discussions, I find it useful to drop in here from time to time for updates on possible policy changes. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I was wondering if it is against any Wikipedia policy, or more importantly, if it is illegal to mention, in a References in popular culture section some artistic works inspired by another (copyrighted) artistic work. In particular, this Mediation Cabal case on East of Eden has been brewing for nearly a month with only sporadic discussion (and no closure) occurring. East of Eden has been assessed as "Top Importance" by WikiProject Novels, which means it is "a 'core' topic for literature, or is highly notable to people other than students of literature" (from Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Assessment#Importance scale)
Even more specifically, there are certain songs, inspired by this book, that were included in the References in popular culture section that User:Catbird222 removes. Eventually someone else adds them back—I was the one to first do these reverts, providing references to back up that these songs were inspired by the book. However, Catbird222 believes these songs to be copyright infringements, and even further, he claims to actually own the copyrights (see User talk:Catbird222). Regardless, I believe mentioning these songs is acceptable under fair use (both the WP policy and the legal doctrine).
Catbird222 even uses the name of admin User:BradPatrick, though Brad claims in this (archived) Administrators' noticeboard discussion that the invocation of his name is unwarranted in this situation.
The three bold links above are areas where this has been discussed quite a bit. I am refraining from reverting Catbird222's edits until this matter is settled.
− Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 07:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, if Catbird claims to own the rights to East of Eden, then by editing that article he is definitely in violation of WP:COI. If the mediation doesn't go anywhere, just move up the Dispute Resolution ladder. If he keeps up the way he's going, he's going to end up blocked by the ArbCom eventually.-- Aervanath 09:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Just my 2 cents: this reminds me of a similar situation where an editor tried to get all references and links to websites offerin "old time radio" recordings removed from Wikipedia, and in the process started removing links and information that were being used for the specific purposes of fulfilling WP:V. As I understand it, just because something based upon another work is alleged to violate a copyright, that does not disqualify it from inclusion in Wikipedia. It can be mentioned, and if notable enough an article can be created about it, nd if it is the subject of a copyright suit, etc., then that can also be mentioned in the appropriate place -- with proper attribution. Someone coming along and making the claim that such-and-such is a copyvio and must be removed -- when that item is simply being mentioned as factual information, in this case to illustrate cultural references to East of Eden -- is IMO in violation of WP:NPOV and probably other Wikipedia rules and unless, of course, the information being added can be proven as being false, WP:SNOW is also a factor. 23skidoo 21:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi. This is probably going to be my last edit to wikipedia in a long while. Prior to now I've attempted to better the wiki in various ways, and I won't blow my own trumpet about all of them, just check my main-space contributions.
However, I'm now going to go on indefinite leave from the wiki, with no plans to return while it remains in the current state it is.
Over the past couple of months, I've experienced bullying from a couple of admins who appear genuinely well intentioned, but don't get that what they are doing is bad. They see things through the coloured lenses where disagreement is trolling, warning to remain civil is a personal attack, and everyone except them is edit warring and being disruptive. It's their way, or the highway. I came to their attention for disagreeing with their positions a few times, and thus earning accusations of ill intent and threat of blocks.
The problem, I think, is rooted in Editcountitis. Despite claims to the otherwise, Edit Count is still the primary decision maker in who gets to be an Admin. And what kind of editor has a large edit count? The kind of editor who edit wars over things to get their way. And of course, once appointed admin, they believe their behaviour has been vetted, so their way of doing things is 'the wikipedia way'.
Tag on the continuing belief of some admins that they are 'the best and brightest' of Wikipedia, and need special privileges such as private official IRC channels and a 'get out of jail free' card for personal attacks... And Wikipedia is going to end up turning into an isolationist and exclusionary club, and otherwise long term editors are going to drop out because of it.
I hope that this trend is reversed, that bullying is no longer accepted on wikipedia, that admin accept they are taking on responsibility not being awarded power. Till then, bye. The vast majority of you have all been fantastic and do a good job. But there's no longer a climate for me that I can edit without being bullied. -- Barberio 23:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Barberio, if you choose to leave, that's your call...but I'd recommend taking the personal attacks off your user and user talk pages. -- Milo H Minderbinder 13:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but why doesn't Wikipedia require people to register? I bet 90% of the vandalism on here comes from IP users, and if they were required to register before they edit it would stop a lot of that, and make many, many peoples' work a lot easier. Why don't they do this? It would still be an encyclopedia anybody could edit. -- AW 23:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Another thing that it is impossible to track are how many of those anonymous IP edits are just the first edits of a future registered user. If it weren't so easy to edit, how many of them would actually sign up to be editors? We don't actually know. Maybe it's none. Maybe it's quite a few. Meh. "Vandals, you can't live with 'em...pass the beer nuts."-- Aervanath 09:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
There recently has been some reverting over Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, specifically changes from the previous wording "If you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid editing articles related to you..." to "...you are strongly discouraged from avoid editing articles related to you..." and similar variations on that wording (most with grammar that isn't so bad). Personally I feel the proposed wordings have been more lenient and an unnecessary weakening of the guideline (particularly in light of recent events). New opinions would be welcome. -- Milo H Minderbinder 17:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just a little question: can we use the English Wikipedia as a source for articles in other languages? I thought I had seen a page listing all the possible sources that could be used for Wikipedia, and the English Wikipedia was listed in the category wiki. Thanks in advance, Zouavman Le Zouave ( Talk to me! • O)))) 10:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
It really depends on the policy on the foreign-language Wikipedia. On the English Wikipedia, we don't like to use tertiary sources (see WP:SOURCE) for our articles. Since encyclopedias are tertiary sources, we do not generally use foreign-language Wikipedias as sources. Your Wikipedia may have a different policy, though. -- Aervanath 08:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I have an image I'd like to scan and include in an article. The image appeared in Harper's Weekly in 1900, but the book where I found it reprinted was published in 1977. The image, being over 100 years old, should be out of copyright, but the book is clearly still in copyright. If I scan the picture from the book, which copyright status is applicable, that of the image, or that of the book? Acdixon 00:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to all for this great advice! It was extremely helpful. Acdixon 15:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I am a contributor to and an editor of The Technique. In developing its wiki entry, I uploaded Image:The Technique 12-01-2006.jpg, and placed that image in a "gallery" on my userpage. Given that I therefore own partial copyright of the picture, do I have rights to use it on my userpage? Does it make any difference that the "use" in question is a thumbnail? See additional discussion on my talk page: User talk:Disavian#Fair use images aren't allowed in user pages. Thank you. — Disavian ( talk/ contribs) 01:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
FYI: My concern is how does Disavian prove he is a copyright owner? Without, isn't the entire discussion mute? Will ( Talk - contribs) 06:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The image has been removed, by the way. I think I've seen some pretty convincing arguments that I can't do it. — Disavian ( talk/ contribs) 02:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the rule is that fair use images can't be used outside the main namespace at all. Durin told me this we can't even allow fair use images on the talk pages of articles and any templates out there -- even ones that will never be used outside articles. So I would expect User talk pages to be a no-no. Will ( Talk - contribs) 06:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Disavian, if you were able to get the Editor in Chief, or whoever owns the copyright (I think it would normally be the Publisher, not the Editor in Chief, although your Editor in Chief may be both) to agree to release the image under the GFDL, then there would be no problem with using it anywhere on Wikipedia.-- Aervanath 21:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
What is the best article to link on when trying to explain about WP:CV to new editors? Soemthing nice, simple and concise (or at least, something they'll read so I don't have to summarize it all on their talk page). RJFJR 23:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The essay I have written is called: Wikipedia:Essays are not policy. I have written in as an attempt to explain what essays are and are not, and how to respond to those who use them and you don't agree with the essay. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Can an article ever be considered complete, and if so, would restriction in editing be considered to ensure that an article doesn't reach a peak and then decline due to sneaky vandalism/sabotage etc? Of course if someone has something to add to a "completed" article, a suitabley ranked Wikipedian could be trusted to implement the addition. I just think it would be nice, once an article is decidedly finished, to not have to spend resources keeping it in good shape and to concentrate on something else. -- Seans Potato Business 04:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand the intent behind our policies NPA and CIVIL; we need to be able to discuss matters politely in order to work together. Unfortunately some people interpret those policies to mean that we must respect each other. Now, I am not the kind of person to give respect lightly; I believe respect has to be earned. It is also easy for me to be nice to someone who clearly respects me.
The problem is when I run into a user who is both arrogant and an idiot. There is no way to work with, or even communicate with, such a person; they are too dumb to know what they are talking about and too full of themselves to learn from their mistakes. Generally I give up all hope of interacting productively with such a person and take pleasure in pointing out their stupidity.
I can't simply pretend such people don't exist. And if I wanted to grit my teeth and play politics with them I could get paid a whole lot of money in a real job. Is there any hope for me in Wikipedia? -- Ideogram 07:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you all for your replies. You have given me much to think about. -- Ideogram 22:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, Ideogram, you might want to think about this: Treating someone like they are an idiot is almost as bad as just calling them an idiot. While you may not respect someone, treating other people with respect, even if you don't feel that way, is more likely to earn the respect and cooperation of your fellow Wikipedia editors, which means we are more likely to take your opinion seriously in any discussion. Treating another editor with disrespect is the fastest way I know of lose a debate.-- Aervanath 18:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Seriously. At the time of writing two articles that are having their GA status reviewed are The Beatles and Shakespeare; two of the most searched subjects on the internet! Two subjects that may well be the avenue by which a surfer will come into contact with this site... Well done, folks!! Anyone searching for these subjects will find that Wikipedia aren't sure that the article is actually any good. For those that look a little deeper, it appears that the efforts of new editors are detrimental to the standards that Wikipedia promotes. This may have the effect that new editors are discouraged, that the perception of Wikipedia is tarnished, and that the efforts of regular contributors are hindered by those editors who feel that style is everything and that content and context is irrelevant.
I agree that standards are good, and that the vast majority of articles are (or would be) improved by the strict application of same. It is just that a few are not, or perhaps more correctly are beyond the practice of academic due process. I like to call these articles "flagships", those topics that are likely to attract readers, excite interest in interacting within Wikipedia, encourage editing (no matter how clumsy) and generally bring people into the concept.
These few (very few!) should be exempt from the the usual visible checks and measures. Do not place templates on the talk page, recording the decline from FA class to GA to B grade, make WP:Peer review a condition before putting the article to review (to enable flaws to be addressed). Make it understood that a page that attracts possibly scores of edits, some from new editors or IP addresses, in a day is unlikely to ever be devoid of mistakes in both content or style.
It is in the nature of the beast, the popular article, the majority of it will be mostly right most of the time. An energetic article will constantly be updated, reviewed, corrected, tagged, cited, vandalised, reverted, rewritten, polished, split, added to, subtracted from and generally interacted with. Sometimes on a daily basis. To take an arbitary example of an article and say, "this is not to the standard by which it was once judged, and should have its status revoked" is stupid, pointless and insulting. It is made by editors who are (despite their commendable enthusiasm and diligence) stupid, rather pointless and liable to insult those contributors to major topics with their nitpicking and arrogant, superior attitudes. Perhaps my original premise was wrong; it is the editors who inhabit the FAR and GAR that are the enemy of the ethos of Wikipedia, in attempting to raise the standard they disavow the achievements and struggles of those who have spent time and effort in creating and expanding Wikipedia articles.
I suggest that the 20 (or perhaps 50) articles that aggregate the most edits (including vandalism, which suggest topicality and/or general familiarity if nothing else) over a year should be declared Flagship Articles, and not be subject to the petty referrals and overzealous Wiki policy police edits some other articles are subject. They should have an extra layer of protection from the misguided fools who prefer to concentrate on the placement of blank spaces before or after specific type of text, who will reduce a 10,000 character article into a question of consistency in the spelling of a couple of words. As in law, sometimes the argument that there is a case to answer needs to be made before the case is allowed to proceed.
If the flagship articles are not protected from the WikiZealots, then every FA or GA article will be arcane excercises in subjects that few will be engaged by and the very concept of The Encyclopedia That Anyone Can Edit will be in trouble. LessHeard vanU 00:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Generally, when I personally suggest on a talk page that something is wrong instead of fixing it myself, it's because I'm seeking the opinion (or lack of it) of other editors working on a page before changing it. On a high traffic page this is a significant step in avoiding horribe edit wars and the likes where the current "residents" at an article may be defensive of the status quo. By discussing the problem, people can see why a change is needed and a consensus can be reached.
The article review and grading process is the only form of "quality control" that wikipedia has. It's also the only outward looking indication of the quality of an article, or for that matter, an inward looking indication to editors of what kind of work an article needs. The peer review process is merely a way of getting input from uninvolved and usually experienced editors as to what an articles faults are. The GAR and FAR are much the same, but also look at whether an article continues to meet the criteria for those levels of grading. Quite imply, if the criteria for FA or GA aren't met, then the article isn't FA or GA, and needs work to bring it back to that standard. The reviews offer advice on how to go about doing just that. Crimsone 09:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
LessHeard vanU, could you please assume good faith? To call editors who are attempting to improve the encyclopaedia "stupid" and "rather pointless", and accuse them of having "nitpicking and arrogant, superior attitudes" is hardly being civil. Most articles which go through FAR and GAR are improved by the process, even if they are eventually demoted. Isn't that the most important thing, that the quality has been improved? Classifying articles into quality groups is useful and encouraging to editors who work hard on articles, but it is hardly the most important aspect of Wikipedia. And yes, when new editors come to FAs, most changes they make are not an improvement. While we shouldn't bite, we shouldn't allow them to degrade the quality either. Trebor 12:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
i.e. "semi protection" from reflex referral. Also the (provisional) passing of an article with cavaets, allowing an article which is otherwise FA/GA to get/keep the accolade while determining what needs to be done to ensure it is retained. "Entry-point page" is as valid a description of "Flagship Article" as is one which relies on edit count. LessHeard vanU 14:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)not easier to pass but an acknowledgement that those processes may not always be appropriate for a very few articles in Wikipedia, and that another level of referral/review may be necessary before going to FAR/GAR.
The GA review of William Shakespeare is a mistake--it is a very good article and with a little work could be a featured article. The person who nominated the article for GA review was mistaken in his/her concerns, as evidenced by the fact that no one else has supported the removal. The article is also extremely stable and well referenced. While there is still room for improvement, any one whose first exposure to Wikipedia is the Shakespeare article is not getting a bum rush. I also agree with the previous comment about how too many editors pop onto a page, leave comments about what is wrong with the article, then don't stick around and actually help improve it. Shakespeare was on the Wikipedia:Article Creation and Improvement Drive a half year ago and even that wasn't enough to get other editors to pitch in and help. Anyway, this is a very good article which a core group of editors has worked on for a good while. Instead of bellyaching about how some high-profile articles should be better, how about actually helping to improve them?-- Alabamaboy 15:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow. Wow. Setting a double standard like this will only deterioate the quality of the encyclopedia; this will encourage people to vandalize and do other crap to the article so it can hit the "top 100" most edited/viewed article and thus be "exempt" from having to mantain a certain standard of quality. The fact that all articles are subject to the same policies is what keeps the quality of the encyclopedia from going down. There are no exceptions. Many Featured articles promoted in 2003 and 2004 do not have any in-line citations and are generally of poor quality. It hurts Wikipedia more to say that Ridge Route is of the same quality that V for Vendetta (film) is when the former is clearly worse than the latter. Besides that, most readers do not visit the talk page, and the only indication of an FA is a little icon on the upper-right hand side of the screen. The GA logo was obliterated awhile back due to a lack of strong, formal procedure for GAs (anybody can promote GAs; FAs have to go through WP:FAC). My trust of the article comes if it has an accurate in-line citation or not, not whether it has been promoted to FA status or the rather arbitrary GA status. Hbdragon88 00:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that the most viewed articles should be the ones that are held to the highest standards. What would tarnish the image of Wikipedia is if these frequently-viewed articles were reviewed less stringently than others. Having more people viewing an article does mean more checks and balances, but it also means more vandalism, more well-meaning but ultimately harmful edits, and more small edits adding pieces of useful information that are nonetheless not well cited or well integrated into the article. You only have to look at articles that have had their day on the front page to see that scrutiny by the masses is a double-edged sword. There is a reason why featured articles tend to arrive at that state because of the devoted hard work of a small number of contributors. "Flagship" articles need extra vigilance, not less. MLilburne 21:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but it just seems silly to suggest that GAR or FAR are "petty referrals". Also, I fail to understand what sort of catastrophic repercussions you think GAR can have on new editors. Let's see: new editor looks up the Beatles entry. New editor is so fascinated that he reads the talk page, finds the article is under Good article review and thinks "that's odd, I thought the article was really good." And if we're to believe your concerns new editor now thinks "jeez, I'm not going to participate in this project because the standards of quality are way too high". Come on... If anything, ensuring quality articles is going to bring us more quality editors. Wikipedia had the early reputation of a great place to find unreferenced, poorly organized and poorly written piles of info. Thanks in part to the GA and FA processes, it's emerging as a real alternative to paper and other commercial encyclopedias. I don't see how anything is to be gained by hiding these. Pascal.Tesson 22:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
My point was, and remains, that the application of both GA and FA and their (different) processes run contrary to the ethos of The Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit, in that the good faith contributions by editors are liable for removal and amendment against standards of which the new and/or careless editor is not aware. My suggestion is that Wikipedia may be better served by having a very few of the most popular and thus edited articles have a further level of debate where editors expressing a view that a review may be necessary can discuss this on the article talkpage which would include said naive editors (who may become dismayed and demoralised should they believe that their contributions were the reason for referral - at the very least they can be reassured) before beginning such processes if then deemed necessary. These articles may be termed Flagships. As an aside, I also supported the option of deeming articles a pass with a caveat regarding some easily corrected matter which would have otherwise failed.
I realise now by the opinions expressed here that my viewpoint and proposals are not going to gain sufficient backing to take any further, and that the status quo remains regarded as the best or least worst option. I would like to thank everybody who took part in this, and the civil manner in which it was conducted (as opposed to the intemperate manner in which it was introduced!) I now withdraw this policy discussion point, although I will attempt to answer any queries arising. Thank you. LessHeard vanU 22:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
That isn't what is said on the front page.Wikipedia is the Encyclopedia that anyone who can make an article better can edit...
Anyone searching for these subjects will find that Wikipedia aren't sure that the article is actually any good. For those that look a little deeper, it appears that the efforts of new editors are detrimental to the standards that Wikipedia promotes. This may have the effect that new editors are discouraged, that the perception of Wikipedia is tarnished, and that the efforts of regular contributors are hindered by those editors who feel that style is everything and that content and context is irrelevant.
Bless WP:GAR, bless WP:FAR, bless Wikipedia, and bless WP:IAR. Goodnight! LessHeard vanU 23:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC) (bless)
replacementdocs has tons of game documentation for all kinds of computers and consoles from the past 30 years. So I thought it would be worth sharing that site with Wikipedia visitors by adding an External Link under various classic computer and console articles to the associated file section at replacementdocs.
My thought was that this fit in line with many of the other External Links on the pages of these articles. For example, there is a External Link to the appropriate section of AtariAge on virtually all of the Atari articles (Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Atari Jaguar, etc).
As I was posting these links, User:Luna Santin blocked my IP and reverted my edits claiming it was spam. I make the argument that there is a lot of useful information on that site, and that some people wouldn't even know that an archive like that existed if it weren't linked from these general computer/console articles.
Any other opinions on the matter? Casimps1 21:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
This sounds like something that should be taken up over at WP:COPYVIO.-- Aervanath 18:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
This is something I've been wondering for a little while, which was brought to the forefront of my mind by a recent RfB, and I haven't been able to find an answer to it yet: Why are username changes a bureaucrat function, and not a sysop function? I know admins already have too much to do, but bureaucrats are sysops too, and it seems to me that if sysops are trusted with everything they are already at this point, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to do username changes as well without an additional level of access. (Admin promotions and bot flagging are different matters in my mind.) I don't believe there's any harm to doing this unless there's a good technical reason why it's bureaucrat-only. I could see it being a small help. (Admin blocks user for username, blocked user requests different name, admin handles it on the spot.) There's probably a good reason why it's a bureaucrat function, but can someone tell me what that is? Grand master ka 08:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I've expressed my concerns about a recent expansion to this template on the talk page. I went over to WP:RFC, but it looks like those are for articles. I'm posting here in hopes that some others can comment on the expansion. BuddingJournalist 04:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
So, can a photoshop of a copyrighted picture really be released into public domain? It doesn't seem like that's right. Milto LOL pia 02:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I request everyone's input regarding this idea, to create a hall of fame to celebrate the editors who've made lasting, non-revertable contribution to the Wikipedia project and deserve some permanent form of recognition, which may serve as an inspiration to the growing community of newer editors. Rama's arrow 18:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
We already have this mechanism, actually. If you think an editor is doing a good job, just give them a Barn Star. It's that simple.-- Aervanath 07:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone chime in at the discussion over at User:ShakespeareFan00/Food_and_Drink_Notability_Guidelines, especially on the talk page there? Thanks. Xiner ( talk, email) 16:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Category:Pilgrim route was for all pilgrimmage routes, but recently someone took the Way of St. James out of this category because they claimed it only applied to pilgrimmage routes in Norway. This sounds a bit strange to me. Comments?-- Filll 04:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
What group is responsible for these decisions?-- Filll 05:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe there are many problems with the current COI page, the most salient one being ambiguity (the page states both that editors with a COI should and should not edit), and a second being that the description as consensus seems rather debatable (I and may other editors have allowed, even encouraged, editors affiliated with their corporations, to engage in constructive editing.) Can we begin a discussion on this at the COI page? I have attempted to begin one, but three editors have refused to engage in substantive discussion (their essential point being that the consensus is settled and the matter's final.)
I encourage editors with opinions on the matter to begin a discussion on the WP:COI talk page. Sdedeo ( tips) 05:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand that there is a policy on WP to keep article sizes under 40kb. I request that this limit be increased in special cases like articles about countries. I say this because, articles about countries need to cover a wide gamut of issues (geography,history, politics, ethnicities, cuisine, architecture etc etc etc). Long list actually. And each of these subtopics is worth its own dedicated fork.
So following 'summary style' becomes very difficult especially when new content and information keeps getting added. It is also leading to futile edit wars with reams and reams of futile discussion on talk pages. India for example, is facing this issue at the moment with a relatively new user, reverting content at sight and then hiding behind spurious 'article size' compulsions when others demand an explanation for his reverts.
So my suggestion is that article size be wedded to say, the number of forks that an article has. I would rather an article run into hundreds of kilobytes than the discussion page.
If this is not possible, I feel we should simply lock an article forever once it reaches its size limit or gets featured status. That way, new editors to wp will be spared the pain of adding content in good faith to an article only for it to get blanked out because the article has gone 1 KB over the limit. Sarvagnya 17:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
What is policy regarding deletion of comments in a persons userpage talk space. I was under the impression that you should only ever archive old comments, and deletion was, if not disallowed, heavily frowned on. An anonymous user User talk:203.87.64.214, repeatidly deletes all the comments on his page. Including comments made by me in a current dispute. Several editors have told him that you shouldn't delete comments on a talk page (though only one was regarding his own talk page) and I believe the intention is to make it appear on first glances that he's just a newbie even though by his edit history he's been here since February. Or make it appear that he's never been involved in a conflict of interests. Jacobshaven3 11:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no clear policy on that. The policy on vandalism is poorly written and implies that you can do whatever you want with your talk page, but does not say that clearly. Because of that, some admins give warnings and blocks for removing comments from your talk page, and other admins tell you that you can do whatever you want. The policy that is applied, or misapplied, depending on your interpretation is in Wikipedia:Vandalism
Removing the comments of other users from talk pages other than your own, aside from removing internal spam, vandalism, etc. is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is often considered legitimate, and it is considered acceptable to archive an overly long talk page by creating an archive page and moving the text from the main talk page there. The above rules do not apply to a user's own talk page, where this policy does not itself prohibit the removal and archival of comments at the user's discretion. Please note, though, that removing warnings from one's own talk page is often frowned upon.
Generally people read the first sentence, stop, and interpret that as an okay to blank your talk page. Others read the whole paragraph, and read it differently. It would be nice if someone would rewrite this clearly.
How about:
Your user and talk pages are a community resource. HOwever, removing comments from your talk page is always fine. Removing warnings from your own talk page indicates that you have read the warnings, and is allowed. Removing comments from other users talk pages is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is considered legitimate. It is considered acceptable to archive an overly long talk page by creating an archive page and moving the text from the main talk page there. On a user's own talk page archival of comments is at the user's discretion.
OR
Your user and talk pages are a community resource. Removing comments or warnings from your your own talk page is considered to be vandalism, as a record of warnings can be used by administrators in making decisions, or in showing that Wikipedia has done due diligence in trying to prevent certain activities. Removing comments from other talk pages is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is considered legitimate. It is considered acceptable to archive an overly long talk page by creating an archive page and moving the text from the main talk page there.
Atom 02:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Funday PawPet Show survived Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Funday pawpet show. Now there's a second AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Funday PawPet Show, but shouldn't it have "(second nomination)" in the URL? -- EarthFurst 07:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have opened up a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#Proposal_to_alter_the_criteria_for_listing_dates_of_birth concerning altering and clarifying when dates of birth for biographies of living people should be used. New voices to the discussion would be helpful. Thanks. Cowman109 Talk 16:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose that "trolling" not be allowed as a justification for removing other people's comments from talk pages.
Different people differ about what constitutes trolling. An editor who takes action to revert "trolling" is implicitly asserting that his opinion speaks for the group. Often the original poster does not agree that his words are trolling. Often the editor who removes the "trolling" is already opposed to the original poster.
Thoughts? -- Ideogram 01:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Problem there: Many of the real and unmistakable trolls we get here (*coughconspiracytheoristidiotscough*) do need to be removed, and there is no justification other than that they are trolling. Leaving their comments risks them actually convincing someone of their lunacy. -- tjstrf talk 02:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Many troll postings are extremely verbose, if we are not allowed to remove them then the talk page would soon become unreadable. Some trolling is extremely inflammatory and makes people's participation on the uncomfortable. I agree that in the most cases DFTT is the best defence. Alex Bakharev 03:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Let's talk about a concrete example. in Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2006/Candidate statements/Questions for Paul August#Questions from Cyde Weys you will see mention of an edit war over whether a question constituted trolling or not. You can check the edit history for the details. This one went so far as wheel-warring. Ultimately Jimbo himself stepped in and asked everyone to calm down. How do you think this situation could have been avoided? -- Ideogram 22:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Anyone interested in this issue I would ask you to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:What is a troll. I have tried to edit this essay to discourage usage of the term and am being opposed by an editor who (not surprisingly) thinks I am a troll. -- Ideogram 19:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
If i upload an image, if its published before 1923 or something related do i need a source present? Nareklm 03:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
There's currently discussion on the relationship between use of indefinite blocks and community bans at Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_Blocks. -- Barberio 21:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Since the relation between those two categories is more or less hierarchical, wouldn't it be an applicable idea if articles defeatured for some reason would automatically acquire the status of a Good Article? That is, though they wouldn't satisfy the higher criteria of a FA, they would certainly satisfy those of a GA. This would leave more space in the GA nominations page for other articles to be considered, while at the same time the defeatured articles wouldn't suddenly find themselves outside, or too low in, the grading structure. — The Duke of Waltham 16:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be easier for the process to give defeatured articles priority in some way, though? — The Duke of Waltham 07:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Just a note to say that I've made a proposal at Wikipedia talk:Username#Latin character transliterations to require transliterations on non-latin usernames for various reasons, spelled out in the post. Please discuss on that talk page. pschemp | talk 18:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
WikiProject Current Local City Time is proposing at their talk page that articles for prominent cities be moved to include subnational units.For example, Toronto would be moved to Toronto, Ontario.This would result in a de facto change to naming conventions for settlements, which provides (at least for Canada) that:
Your contribution to this discussion would be most welcome. - Joshuapaquin 05:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I will admit that I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the image policies.I write/de-stub a lot of articles about living composers.As everyone knows, it can be tough to find free images of living people who are not super famous and in every tabloid.If there is a publicity headshot of a composer on the website of s/his publisher, and that same publicity shot is reproduced across the net whenever you do an image search for him/her, is it within the fair use criteria to use that piture in and only in the article about the composer?Always yes, always no? Please advise! Thanks- Dmz5 *Edits* *Talk* 20:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
but the
Wikipedia fair-use policy, which is intentionally stricter than U.S. copyright law, does require this.
A discussion on Laura Bush's/Barack Obama's smoking/attempts to quit smoking led me to begin an essay/potential guideline on the topic of including smoking within biographical articles.The participation of the editors here would be appreciated. Italiavivi 01:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
There is an ongoing discussion, whether or not individual capitalizaion for personal names or stage names (like all-lowercase or other variations) should be carried over to Wikipedia, given that an explicit exception from Wikipedia:Proper names#Personal names does not exist, while on the other hand there is a related policy ( Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)) which in most cases suggest a conversion to standard English formatting.
The discussion sparked at Talk:Hide (musician), has since been carried over to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (capital letters) but also somewhat stagnated, so I decided to post here, in order to attract more input. - Cyrus XIII 21:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm having trouble finding a policy on quoting text from the Bible.In particular, I'm trying to clean up the articles about individual Psalms in the Bible.These are in category "Psalms", eg Psalm 51.Most of these articles include the full text of the Psalm in at least one version of the Bible, mostly English, with a few Hebrew ones too.Should the text of the Psalm appear as a big lump in the article -- isn't the article about the Psalm, rather than the Psalm itself.This would be the case for poetry, wouldn't it?If there's a policy I've missed, please point me to it.Once I start editing, rather than stand on toes, I would like to be able to point to a policy that says, "this is how we do it".Thanks in advance. Bernard S. Jansen 11:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to propose a radical change, which I know will be ignored/dismissed by the majority of editors, as it would involve a fundamental restructuring of Wikipedia. However, hear me out. I think WP:NOTE should be abolished. I participate regularly in AfDs and newpage patrolling, and don't agree with the policy administered there. My plan is this:
I'm in an edit war at Shilpa Shetty, with an editor who insists on restoring a para about her being hired to do advertising for a vodka company, which he names. He thinks that it's newsworthy, and a great honor for her, that she's been selected as a "brand ambassador" for this brand of vodka. I don't think it's notable at all; celebrities have been endorsing this and that, for pay, since the 19th century and perhaps earlier. I keep removing the booze ad, or cutting it down to one sentence with no mention of the brand (but with a link to a press release that does mention it), and he keeps restoring the para on vodka, with a long quote from the press release. He says that WP doesn't have any policy that prohibits mention of celebrity endorsements. I think it's covered by our "no commercial advertising" stance. If we allow celebrity endorsements to justify in-article ads for named companies, the camel has its nose under the tent.
The problem is that I know we don't accept advertising, or allow linkspam, but I can't find a policy on mentioning celebrity endorsements in an article. Do we need to make a policy? I'd suggest something like "we don't mention celebrity endorsements unless they become controversial enough to rate extensive coverage in the regular news media".For instance, if Prince Charles were to endorse a brand of tampon and a brouhaha ensued :) Zora 06:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see a reason why listing endorsements made by a given celebrity on that celebrity's article is a problem.It doesn't constitute advertising since it's only stating facts.If it said something to the effect of "Celebrity X endorsed product Y because product Y is a great product" then that would need to go, but simply stating that "Celebrity X endorsed product Y in an advertising campaign" is fine as it's a relevant peice of information about that person's career.Of course, this should only get a passing mention; there shouldn't be a whole paragraph or section on it.A simple list of products endorsed is sufficient. -- The Way 22:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
With a million and half articles, of course there's lots of stuff that is bad. I'm arguing that mentioning endorsements, and in particular naming the company, is letting WP be used for advertising. I'd apply this across the board, to all the celebrity articles. The only exception should be for advertising that does become controversial or extremely notable. Zora 23:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I have been away from Wikipedia because of connection problems at home. For me this is a complete non-issue because of the ridiculous arguments presented about "advertising". For the record, the term "brand ambassador" means nothing at all and is the term used in the source articles. It only means that the celebrity in question has been employed to be the "face" of Romanov Vodka, it is nothing at all about advertisement pushing or whatever the problem is about. It's like saying that Kate Moss is the face of Rimmel or Burberry (which is why they dropped her during that cocaine fiasco). If the term "brand ambassador" is quoted in the source to denote Shilpa Shetty's position, what's the problem with quoting the source on Wikipedia. If other editors (such as Zora, etc.) have a problem with this use of language then they are better advised to take their protests to the publications which used that term. In my view this is not a problem for Wikipedia. Ekantik talk 16:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I generally agree with The Way's views here; a celebrity's advertising campaigns do not have to be controversial to gain a mention in Wikipedia, but it is perfectly OK to mention their campaigns/endorsements as part of their career. For example, everyone knows that Michael Jackson's hair caught fire when he was filming for a Pepsi commercial. According to the No-Adverts Group, this should be rewritten in some vague way like: "Michael Jackson's hair caught fire when he was filming a commercial for a famous soft-drinks company." As you can see, it doesn't have quite the same effect as being succint. I can only shudder to think how many pages people have slaughtered in this way. The other issue is that, without trying to blow my own trumpet, I have been responsible for around 90% of the content of the article as it was in an extremely poor state before I started working on it. Just a couple of facts and an incomplete filmography. Thus, I was the one who ran around trying to find out reliable sources about the celebrity and rewrite the article so it is far improved now, including about this Romanov Vodka issue. I find that this whole issue of repeatedly deleting content (without even bothering to discuss it adequately on the talk page) shows disrespect to the contributions of other editors to Wikipedia, not to mention that non-existent policies have been quoted to justify such removal. Ekantik talk 17:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should remove all unsourced claims of endorsement from biographies of living people; see discussion here. Postdlf 16:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
You need an unbiased source for both the fact itself and the importance (noteability or encyclopedic-ness) of the fact. A press release is pert of the advertizing campaign and is not a NPOV source for establishing the importance although it can usually be used to help establish the fact. But with only a press release we have no neutral wording available and get stuff like "endorsement" instead of "agreed to be paid to lie about this product" (sometimes a more accurate assessment). WAS 4.250 17:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I was planning on working through our articles on writers. I was going to use those 'year in literature links', eg 1939 in literature, but with a pipe, so that just the year appears, eg 1939.
I felt that this would be an especially useful thing to do for the year of publication of a writer's works, since clicking then brings up other works released that year. And if you use such links for dates of birth and death, clicking brings up other writers born/deceased in those years.
However, I figured I'd better check I was doing the right thing. I started out by looking at two literature featured articles; Samuel Beckett and Robert A. Heinlein. Neither of those articles seem to favour linking the years at all, let alone specifically.
I checked out the relevant bit of the style guide: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), but that doesn't seem to help on this point.
Any advice? I'm rather keen on my approach, but I'm made uncertain by looking at the Featured Articles. -- bodnotbod 20:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Discussion closed, please do not feed the trolls. |
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The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. |
On Wikipedia I have seen a small number of users who committed what was called vandalism, and, I feel, it was vandalism. However, the users managed to argue that what they had done was not vandalism, and that the deletion was wrong. Out of curiosity, what is policy when it is not possible to argue that an edit should be deleted due to a very cunning argument? 152.78.254.245 15:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
(undent) I'd say "elegantly phrased for your very first post to Wikipedia", but it wasn't a particularly elegantly phrased (or persuasive).Do you plan to stay long, or are you just waiting for someone to run checkuser? -- John Broughton | (♫♫) 19:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
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I have submitted a proposal that the new user warning templates at Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace should remain semi-protected and not become permanently fully protected at some point.For those interested, please discuss at Wikipedia talk:High-risk templates#Proposal to keep new user messages semi-protected only. Thank you, Satori Son 03:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone tell me why anonymous users are not allowed to create new articles? Doesn't this strongly hinder the accessibility of the projecy? / Lokal _ Profil 02:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has started up at the talk page at Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion about the possibility of a test run of switching CSD A7 to Prod.Please check the talk page for further discussion. -- badlydrawnjeff talk 18:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)