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There are numerous archive boxes and formats. I'd like to standardize. Here's what I see so far:
I believe that "archive box" and "archive box collapsible" aren't very good, because they don't fit in the flow of a talk page. There is no logical place to put them. Typically, talk pages have a bunch of banners on top; thus, I favor "archive banner". Further, archive banner can be placed in the nested list of the much-used "wikiprojectbanner". And further still, "archive banner" requires no arguments in most circumstances, making it easier to use.
Please offer feedback. Timneu22 ( talk) 16:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Disagree with the change, do not like this new banner, don't want another non-standard template cluttering the top of talk pages, prefer existing small boxes on side of page, please stop unilaterally altering talk pages. Thanks, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
This user is now also unilaterally altering archiving naming, away from the standard used in featured article archives, from lowercase to uppercase. This is the third uniteral personal preference being imposed on talk pages without discussion (archive boxes, WikiProject banner shells, and archiving formatting). Perhaps this needs to be taken to WP:AN/I? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
This is way too quick and without any discussion or consensus. Just because you think something looks better, does not mean you have the executive decision. I have also been attempting to create a new archive box, and I have been working on it for weeks. To come along with your own design that only you think is good and start editing pages to use it in less than a day is unacceptable. The archive box also should not be used with {{ WikiProjectBannerShell}} or {{ WikiProjectBanners}} as it is not even a WikiProject. It might be acceptable in some circumstances to use {{ BannerShell}}, but usually not. Depreciating the other templates is the worse idea, especially because there are so many user pages that use the existing templates. If there is a new template developed, it should incorporate all of the current templates' parameters, such as mine. I also would propose to speedily delete your new template, so it's usage does not get out of hand. MrKIA11 ( talk) 17:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Timneu22 ( talk) 19:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
small=yes
parameter. Adding a single parameter is not that big of a deal, and I don't see how the new template works "better".
MrKIA11 (
talk) 22:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Archive Banner:
Archives: no archives yet ( create) |
|
Archive Box Collapsible
Archives: no archives yet ( create) |
I have not been able to get a tenth of this attention regarding my new box, so I was wondering if I could get some comments/suggestions on it. Thanks, MrKIA11 ( talk) 22:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
the number of edits required for an account to become able to edit semiprotected articles appears to be down to three. Doesn't this defeat the entire purpose? I thought the number used to be forty or so? Consider Phil11021 ( talk · contribs): this account's Wikipedia career consists of dumping the Encarta article at Tundra, [1] doing two minor edits, and then proceeding to ... remove one of the infamous images at semiprotected Muhammad. [2] I strongly recommend we up the number of required edits to at least 20, or semiprotection is rendered essentially ineffective. dab (𒁳) 12:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This needs adjustment. Take banned User:Grawp for example; on the order of a hundred of sock accounts; hundreds of IPs. There is nothing wrong with limiting a new account for the first hundred edits. It is probably in the long-term interest of true new users that they are a bit constrained while they figure out which way is up. However, goosing-up the limits will seriously impede the likes of Grawp. Something along the lines of no undo, no moves, no new articles for your first week, or until after a hundred edits would be a fine move. A version of a welcome template that also amounts to some user saying that the new user has passed a sniff-test would be worth discussing. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
there is a reason articles are semi-protected: the point is to make trolling more time-intensive for the trolls, and the cleanup less time-intensive for the RCP people or admins. Requiring 20-40 edits of a new account before they can edit problem articles is perfectly reasonable. Of course you can still farm sleeper accounts, or even set up a bot to do the required edits, but the cost for our average disgruntled trolls interested in leaving their mark will be ever so much higher. I would not support something which puts a severe burden on bona fide newbies: I wouldn't recommend setting the threshold to several hundred edits, but the benefit of asking for 20-40 will certainly pay off. I remember that when I was a bona fide newbie, I did neither dare nor wish to touch problem articles until I had accumulated several hundreds of edits, and watched how other editors handle disputes first. In the light of the "remove the Muhammad images" campaign, I certainly think it would be a Good Idea to set such a threshold at this point. dab (𒁳) 16:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not too concerned about the specific number of edits required; a hundred does not seem like too much to me, but 20-40 would be a nice improvment, too. Some kind of tool to find created but sleeping accounts would be interesting. I would expect some to be just lost souls, but suspect that a lot of such accounts are the reserves. -- Jack Merridew 07:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I wrote an article Uvs Nuur basin which was redirected to Uvs Nuur Lake with no discussion or merge proposal or any warning. The contents were merged in a hapazard way with Uvs Nuur Lake that made the meaning incorrect. Another article I had written Ubsunur Hollow was redirected out of existence and its contents also added to Uvs Nuur Lake, as the old article was no longer in the history. (Uvs Nuur Lake meanwhile had been renamed Uvs Nuur. When I complained, suddenly it was redirected to Uvs Nuur with a disambig page (which I cannot find now) with all red links. I tried to fix the disambig page to follow the Disambiguation Page guideline. Fortunately I had saved a copy of Ubsunur Hollow {which has been redirected out of existence to another page). Now it is renamed to Ubsunur Hollow Biosphere Reserve. How can I prevent this sort of thing from happening without any warning or discussion? I was lucky this time to be able to find one of the articles at least. When I complained on the article talk pages, my concerns were ignored. Mattisse 21:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Please comment at Wikipedia Talk:CSD#Proposed change to criterion A7.
The proposal is to change criterion A7 from:
An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead.
to:
An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content which is patently non-notable. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead. If the article fails to assert notability but the subject is not patently non-notable, the Proposed deletion procedure should be used.
Reason:
Articles on perfectly notable subjects have been subjected to CSD under this criterion because the author didn't realize that the subject's notability had to be asserted and explained. If the article doesn't violate any other criterion (advertising, BLP violation, copyright, etc.), there is simply no reason not to give the author a few days to assert the subject's notability. This change would avoid damage to the project from newbies who find their articles deleted in a manner they consider unfair, without any real downside from keeping questionable articles around a few extra days. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 21:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
If their article is deleted because they weren't aware they needed to assert its notability, they are forced to read policy pages and gain knowledge.
If CsD is revised to account for their ignorance, they remain ignorant and continue to upload one non-notable article after another. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Propose changing criterion A7 from:
An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead.
to:
An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that indicates, based on the facts stated in the article, that its subject is not important or significant. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead. Note: this criterion should be used only for articles that make it clear from the facts stated in the article that an Articles for deletion discussion would be closed under WP:SNOW. If the article fails to assert assert importance or significance, but the article does not actually indicate that the subject is not important or significant so clearly to make the outcome of an articles for deletion discussion obvious, the Proposed deletion procedure should be used.
The phrase "patent non-notability" seems to have confused people. Perhaps this wording may explain more clearly why "Bob goes to my school. Bob rocks!!!" could still get deleted under CSD, but this would not. -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 14:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I tried prodding the List of Swedes but User:DGG removed the prod with the motivation that "these are always contested, so they need AfD". My original prod motivation was this:
The Swedish list was here and was deleted throgh a discussion here.
There are many similar lists in the Category:Lists of people by nationality. Before taking this to an AFD debate I would like to start a discussion. I am pretty pessimistic about the chance for any list such as this to be made non-arbitrary. How are these nineteen models more representative and significant examples of Swedish people than all the monarchs except the nineteen included? Or more important than all the scientists other than the (pathetic) fifteen deemed worthy of inclusion. Why not have a list of Swedish meteorologists? The list of musicians is dominated by pop singers and members of obscure black metal bands, while a composer such as Franz Berwald has been included in an earlier revision but was removed at some point for some subjective reason. It isn't even a representative selection of pop and rock musicians, as it only represents the current crop of musicians in those genres, not those popular in the 50s, 60s or 70s. The list of artists includes Anna Maria Ehrenstrahl, but not her father David Klöcker Ehrenstrahl, who is probably the best known painter of the Swedish baroque.
Adding or removing a name or two doesn't really help; as long as the inclusion or exclusion of a name is based merely on the opinion of the editor, the list remains arbitrary.
The only way to make a list such as this one non-arbitrary would be to rely on one or a few authoritative outside sources with a scope as broad as the list itself. In this case, one could decide to include every Swede who is included in some major Swedish encyclopaedia or dictionary of biography. The problem is that such an inclusion guideline would push the list far beyond manageable size for a single page. That is the case here and would probably be the case for most countries except possibly places like Andorra or San Marino. (To give a rough idea, Svenskt biografiskt lexikon, a national dictionary of biography for Sweden, has so far about 8000 articles [3], and is still a work in progress. As a comparison, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, representing a nation with a larger population, has 56000 articles. [4])
Of course, relying on a single authoritative outside source with a broad scope would almost certainly remove all but two or three of the two dozen or so hockey players currently included. Most of these are extremely unlikely to ever get included in a more general reference work. I'm not saying that hockey goalie Henrik Lundqvist or nude model Elin Grindemyr (voted "the sexiest woman in Sweden" in 2005, apparently) should be excluded from Wikipedia, which is "not paper", but let's not pretend that they are more important than David Klöcker Ehrenstrahl or Franz Berwald or King Charles IX, or Hjalmar Branting or Per Albin Hansson who are all arbitrarily excluded. Henrik Lundqvist and Elin Grindemyr have more fans, that's all.
Maybe deletion of the list is not the right answer. But what about moving this list to a subpage of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Sweden? It already has other, similar, subpages with lists of articles that should be written or improved. Some of the old revisions could be dug up. I am sure there are some names there more worthy of inclusion than what is currently in there. What about all the other lists of people by nationality? Do they suffer from the same problem?
Please note that I am not suggesting that every list of people should be deleted. A list of Swedish heavy metal musicians or models or hockey players all on its own may be fine, as an outside source with such a scope can probably be found. The problem is just when one needs to make a selection of people by a certain nationality from every conceivable category of people by occupation or field of activity. Olaus ( talk) 10:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see why there are individual names on List of Swedes under headings where a main article link is given. In those cases, the link is all that is needed. List of Swedish Musicians and List of Swedish models need to be created. Tyrenius ( talk) 05:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
A year and a half ago, I went over the article on Moonville, Ohio and converted it from a ghost story to an article on the town with an addendum on the ghost rumors. I stopped watching it after a while, and of course it is gradually being overrun by the paranormal claims. I personally don't feel like fighting this, as every time I turn my back on the article, it is just going to go bad again. Moonville is a ghost town (in the more conventional sense) and there's not much to be said on it.
However, there is now an image added to the article whose caption is "Ectoplasmic photographic phenomenon", and whose description says, "Picture of what we believe to be the ghost or ghosts of the moonville tunnel in ohio. Taken on a slightly rainy day in dim light with auto flash. Note none of the ghostly images that show up on pic were visible to the naked eye." It appears to have been taken by User:Djlland, who uploaded it.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that purpose-taken pictures of alleged paranormal phenomenon are a major problem. It's one thing to take a picture of something that everyone can see, and about which there is no dispute that there is something there to take a picture of. Or for that matter, where other people can look at the picture and verify that it is in fact an accurate image of the object in question. This picture cannot be so verified-- indeed, we have nothing more than the user's word that this thing wasn't photoshopped into existence. I am not so bold as to ask the thing be deleted outright, but I am highly inclined to ask for that deletion as a violation of a long list of research and reliability issues.
Comments, anyone? Mangoe ( talk) 14:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Addendum: I've checked User:Djlland, and he was only briefly active in August 2007, mostly to upload and insert this picture. Mangoe ( talk) 14:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
There is someone smoking behind the camera on the photograph evidently - it is just tobacco smoke--Lykantrop ( Talk) 23:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone missed that class where the original research policy page talks specifically about photographs. Please read that specific section. Photographs have always enjoyed a wide latitude from OR. Almost all the photographs we host are taken by participants. We have no way to know whether any photograph is Photo-shopped, which touches on assume good faith. The caption of the photograph is another story, you should focus on that specific issue. Wjhonson ( talk) 23:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
If I had to guess, I'd say it's a window reflection, but whatever it is, it's obviously nonsense. Wikipedia isn't the place to promote paranormal theories. -- B ( talk) 00:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, I'm tempted to take the article all the way back to the last time I edited it, modulo copyediting. It bugs the daylights out of the me that this stuff just takes over articles: see Point Lookout Light for another case. Mangoe ( talk) 03:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Note: WP:NOR has nothing to do with whether editors think a claim is true or even plausible. The problem here is that the claim that the picture has anything to do with a ghost is simply an editor's own assertioin with no reliable source to support it. If there were a photograph that was associated with a notable claim of ghost-sighting with reliable sources to support it, there would be no problem including it in the article and describing the claim associated with it. The UFO article, for example, has long had pictures of notable claimed UFO sightings and there's absolutely no policy problem including them. The difference is that the pictures in that article are reliably sourced as connected with notable UFO sighting claims. Ghost and UFO claims are not extraordinary. They're made all the time and have long historical and cultural roots. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 04:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to put things strait. This picture was not altered in any way whatsoever. The date you refer to as New Years is inaccurate as the time the pic was taken. My camera automatically resets the date to new years when you change batteries. the pic was actually taken mid day August 7th 2007 as I stated in the article. I do still have the original file, it is completely unedited. Whether or not you believe it is a ghost is up to the individual. I cannot truely say myself that it was a ghost as I only seen it through the pic after developing the file at Walgreens. I have since retured to Moonville, taken several more photos in brighter light and did not capture anything significant. The pic in question was taken on a dim light, slightly rainy, foggy day. There was more to that day than what the pic shows but I did not bother writing all that in the article because I felt that would have been inappropriate use. Either way I felt this was a very good picture of the tunnel and it fits well into the whole story. I would appreciate it if you would allow it back in without the claims of ghosts. Thank you, djlland
This is a proposal to weaken the superseded images policy at commons, which is having effects at Wikipedia such as user confusion about which image to use. -- Rschen7754 ( T C) 04:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
hey guys, your site rocks. i just wanted to offer a suggestion: create a "did you mean...?" service when searching. for example, if i search "barac obama", i get zero responses. but, when i search "barac obama" on google, i get a tag that predicted my intended search with the correct spelling. peace, greg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregtrueblood ( talk • contribs) 08:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to put things strait. This picture was not altered in any way whatsoever. The date you refer to as New Years is inaccurate as the time the pic was taken. My camera automatically resets the date to new years when you change batteries. the pic was actually taken mid day August 5, 2007 as I stated in the article. I do still have the original file, it is completely unedited. Whether or not you believe it is a ghost is up to the individual. I cannot truely say myself that it was a ghost as I only seen it through the pic after developing the file at Walgreens. I have since retured to Moonville, taken several more photos in brighter light and did not capture anything significant. The pic in question was taken on a dim light, slightly rainy, foggy day. There was more to that day than what the pic shows but I did not bother writing all that in the article because I felt that would have been inappropriate use. Either way I felt this was a very good picture of the tunnel and it fits well into the whole story. I would appreciate it if you would allow it back in without the claims of ghosts. Thank you, djlland
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There are numerous archive boxes and formats. I'd like to standardize. Here's what I see so far:
I believe that "archive box" and "archive box collapsible" aren't very good, because they don't fit in the flow of a talk page. There is no logical place to put them. Typically, talk pages have a bunch of banners on top; thus, I favor "archive banner". Further, archive banner can be placed in the nested list of the much-used "wikiprojectbanner". And further still, "archive banner" requires no arguments in most circumstances, making it easier to use.
Please offer feedback. Timneu22 ( talk) 16:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Disagree with the change, do not like this new banner, don't want another non-standard template cluttering the top of talk pages, prefer existing small boxes on side of page, please stop unilaterally altering talk pages. Thanks, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
This user is now also unilaterally altering archiving naming, away from the standard used in featured article archives, from lowercase to uppercase. This is the third uniteral personal preference being imposed on talk pages without discussion (archive boxes, WikiProject banner shells, and archiving formatting). Perhaps this needs to be taken to WP:AN/I? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
This is way too quick and without any discussion or consensus. Just because you think something looks better, does not mean you have the executive decision. I have also been attempting to create a new archive box, and I have been working on it for weeks. To come along with your own design that only you think is good and start editing pages to use it in less than a day is unacceptable. The archive box also should not be used with {{ WikiProjectBannerShell}} or {{ WikiProjectBanners}} as it is not even a WikiProject. It might be acceptable in some circumstances to use {{ BannerShell}}, but usually not. Depreciating the other templates is the worse idea, especially because there are so many user pages that use the existing templates. If there is a new template developed, it should incorporate all of the current templates' parameters, such as mine. I also would propose to speedily delete your new template, so it's usage does not get out of hand. MrKIA11 ( talk) 17:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Timneu22 ( talk) 19:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
small=yes
parameter. Adding a single parameter is not that big of a deal, and I don't see how the new template works "better".
MrKIA11 (
talk) 22:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Archive Banner:
Archives: no archives yet ( create) |
|
Archive Box Collapsible
Archives: no archives yet ( create) |
I have not been able to get a tenth of this attention regarding my new box, so I was wondering if I could get some comments/suggestions on it. Thanks, MrKIA11 ( talk) 22:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
the number of edits required for an account to become able to edit semiprotected articles appears to be down to three. Doesn't this defeat the entire purpose? I thought the number used to be forty or so? Consider Phil11021 ( talk · contribs): this account's Wikipedia career consists of dumping the Encarta article at Tundra, [1] doing two minor edits, and then proceeding to ... remove one of the infamous images at semiprotected Muhammad. [2] I strongly recommend we up the number of required edits to at least 20, or semiprotection is rendered essentially ineffective. dab (𒁳) 12:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This needs adjustment. Take banned User:Grawp for example; on the order of a hundred of sock accounts; hundreds of IPs. There is nothing wrong with limiting a new account for the first hundred edits. It is probably in the long-term interest of true new users that they are a bit constrained while they figure out which way is up. However, goosing-up the limits will seriously impede the likes of Grawp. Something along the lines of no undo, no moves, no new articles for your first week, or until after a hundred edits would be a fine move. A version of a welcome template that also amounts to some user saying that the new user has passed a sniff-test would be worth discussing. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
there is a reason articles are semi-protected: the point is to make trolling more time-intensive for the trolls, and the cleanup less time-intensive for the RCP people or admins. Requiring 20-40 edits of a new account before they can edit problem articles is perfectly reasonable. Of course you can still farm sleeper accounts, or even set up a bot to do the required edits, but the cost for our average disgruntled trolls interested in leaving their mark will be ever so much higher. I would not support something which puts a severe burden on bona fide newbies: I wouldn't recommend setting the threshold to several hundred edits, but the benefit of asking for 20-40 will certainly pay off. I remember that when I was a bona fide newbie, I did neither dare nor wish to touch problem articles until I had accumulated several hundreds of edits, and watched how other editors handle disputes first. In the light of the "remove the Muhammad images" campaign, I certainly think it would be a Good Idea to set such a threshold at this point. dab (𒁳) 16:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not too concerned about the specific number of edits required; a hundred does not seem like too much to me, but 20-40 would be a nice improvment, too. Some kind of tool to find created but sleeping accounts would be interesting. I would expect some to be just lost souls, but suspect that a lot of such accounts are the reserves. -- Jack Merridew 07:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I wrote an article Uvs Nuur basin which was redirected to Uvs Nuur Lake with no discussion or merge proposal or any warning. The contents were merged in a hapazard way with Uvs Nuur Lake that made the meaning incorrect. Another article I had written Ubsunur Hollow was redirected out of existence and its contents also added to Uvs Nuur Lake, as the old article was no longer in the history. (Uvs Nuur Lake meanwhile had been renamed Uvs Nuur. When I complained, suddenly it was redirected to Uvs Nuur with a disambig page (which I cannot find now) with all red links. I tried to fix the disambig page to follow the Disambiguation Page guideline. Fortunately I had saved a copy of Ubsunur Hollow {which has been redirected out of existence to another page). Now it is renamed to Ubsunur Hollow Biosphere Reserve. How can I prevent this sort of thing from happening without any warning or discussion? I was lucky this time to be able to find one of the articles at least. When I complained on the article talk pages, my concerns were ignored. Mattisse 21:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Please comment at Wikipedia Talk:CSD#Proposed change to criterion A7.
The proposal is to change criterion A7 from:
An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead.
to:
An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content which is patently non-notable. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead. If the article fails to assert notability but the subject is not patently non-notable, the Proposed deletion procedure should be used.
Reason:
Articles on perfectly notable subjects have been subjected to CSD under this criterion because the author didn't realize that the subject's notability had to be asserted and explained. If the article doesn't violate any other criterion (advertising, BLP violation, copyright, etc.), there is simply no reason not to give the author a few days to assert the subject's notability. This change would avoid damage to the project from newbies who find their articles deleted in a manner they consider unfair, without any real downside from keeping questionable articles around a few extra days. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 21:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
If their article is deleted because they weren't aware they needed to assert its notability, they are forced to read policy pages and gain knowledge.
If CsD is revised to account for their ignorance, they remain ignorant and continue to upload one non-notable article after another. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Propose changing criterion A7 from:
An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead.
to:
An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that indicates, based on the facts stated in the article, that its subject is not important or significant. This is distinct from questions of notability, verifiability and reliability of sources. A7 applies only to articles about web content or articles on people and organizations themselves, not articles on their books, albums, software and so on. Other article types are not eligible for deletion by this criterion. If controversial, as with schools, list the article at Articles for deletion instead. Note: this criterion should be used only for articles that make it clear from the facts stated in the article that an Articles for deletion discussion would be closed under WP:SNOW. If the article fails to assert assert importance or significance, but the article does not actually indicate that the subject is not important or significant so clearly to make the outcome of an articles for deletion discussion obvious, the Proposed deletion procedure should be used.
The phrase "patent non-notability" seems to have confused people. Perhaps this wording may explain more clearly why "Bob goes to my school. Bob rocks!!!" could still get deleted under CSD, but this would not. -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 14:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I tried prodding the List of Swedes but User:DGG removed the prod with the motivation that "these are always contested, so they need AfD". My original prod motivation was this:
The Swedish list was here and was deleted throgh a discussion here.
There are many similar lists in the Category:Lists of people by nationality. Before taking this to an AFD debate I would like to start a discussion. I am pretty pessimistic about the chance for any list such as this to be made non-arbitrary. How are these nineteen models more representative and significant examples of Swedish people than all the monarchs except the nineteen included? Or more important than all the scientists other than the (pathetic) fifteen deemed worthy of inclusion. Why not have a list of Swedish meteorologists? The list of musicians is dominated by pop singers and members of obscure black metal bands, while a composer such as Franz Berwald has been included in an earlier revision but was removed at some point for some subjective reason. It isn't even a representative selection of pop and rock musicians, as it only represents the current crop of musicians in those genres, not those popular in the 50s, 60s or 70s. The list of artists includes Anna Maria Ehrenstrahl, but not her father David Klöcker Ehrenstrahl, who is probably the best known painter of the Swedish baroque.
Adding or removing a name or two doesn't really help; as long as the inclusion or exclusion of a name is based merely on the opinion of the editor, the list remains arbitrary.
The only way to make a list such as this one non-arbitrary would be to rely on one or a few authoritative outside sources with a scope as broad as the list itself. In this case, one could decide to include every Swede who is included in some major Swedish encyclopaedia or dictionary of biography. The problem is that such an inclusion guideline would push the list far beyond manageable size for a single page. That is the case here and would probably be the case for most countries except possibly places like Andorra or San Marino. (To give a rough idea, Svenskt biografiskt lexikon, a national dictionary of biography for Sweden, has so far about 8000 articles [3], and is still a work in progress. As a comparison, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, representing a nation with a larger population, has 56000 articles. [4])
Of course, relying on a single authoritative outside source with a broad scope would almost certainly remove all but two or three of the two dozen or so hockey players currently included. Most of these are extremely unlikely to ever get included in a more general reference work. I'm not saying that hockey goalie Henrik Lundqvist or nude model Elin Grindemyr (voted "the sexiest woman in Sweden" in 2005, apparently) should be excluded from Wikipedia, which is "not paper", but let's not pretend that they are more important than David Klöcker Ehrenstrahl or Franz Berwald or King Charles IX, or Hjalmar Branting or Per Albin Hansson who are all arbitrarily excluded. Henrik Lundqvist and Elin Grindemyr have more fans, that's all.
Maybe deletion of the list is not the right answer. But what about moving this list to a subpage of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Sweden? It already has other, similar, subpages with lists of articles that should be written or improved. Some of the old revisions could be dug up. I am sure there are some names there more worthy of inclusion than what is currently in there. What about all the other lists of people by nationality? Do they suffer from the same problem?
Please note that I am not suggesting that every list of people should be deleted. A list of Swedish heavy metal musicians or models or hockey players all on its own may be fine, as an outside source with such a scope can probably be found. The problem is just when one needs to make a selection of people by a certain nationality from every conceivable category of people by occupation or field of activity. Olaus ( talk) 10:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see why there are individual names on List of Swedes under headings where a main article link is given. In those cases, the link is all that is needed. List of Swedish Musicians and List of Swedish models need to be created. Tyrenius ( talk) 05:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
A year and a half ago, I went over the article on Moonville, Ohio and converted it from a ghost story to an article on the town with an addendum on the ghost rumors. I stopped watching it after a while, and of course it is gradually being overrun by the paranormal claims. I personally don't feel like fighting this, as every time I turn my back on the article, it is just going to go bad again. Moonville is a ghost town (in the more conventional sense) and there's not much to be said on it.
However, there is now an image added to the article whose caption is "Ectoplasmic photographic phenomenon", and whose description says, "Picture of what we believe to be the ghost or ghosts of the moonville tunnel in ohio. Taken on a slightly rainy day in dim light with auto flash. Note none of the ghostly images that show up on pic were visible to the naked eye." It appears to have been taken by User:Djlland, who uploaded it.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that purpose-taken pictures of alleged paranormal phenomenon are a major problem. It's one thing to take a picture of something that everyone can see, and about which there is no dispute that there is something there to take a picture of. Or for that matter, where other people can look at the picture and verify that it is in fact an accurate image of the object in question. This picture cannot be so verified-- indeed, we have nothing more than the user's word that this thing wasn't photoshopped into existence. I am not so bold as to ask the thing be deleted outright, but I am highly inclined to ask for that deletion as a violation of a long list of research and reliability issues.
Comments, anyone? Mangoe ( talk) 14:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Addendum: I've checked User:Djlland, and he was only briefly active in August 2007, mostly to upload and insert this picture. Mangoe ( talk) 14:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
There is someone smoking behind the camera on the photograph evidently - it is just tobacco smoke--Lykantrop ( Talk) 23:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone missed that class where the original research policy page talks specifically about photographs. Please read that specific section. Photographs have always enjoyed a wide latitude from OR. Almost all the photographs we host are taken by participants. We have no way to know whether any photograph is Photo-shopped, which touches on assume good faith. The caption of the photograph is another story, you should focus on that specific issue. Wjhonson ( talk) 23:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
If I had to guess, I'd say it's a window reflection, but whatever it is, it's obviously nonsense. Wikipedia isn't the place to promote paranormal theories. -- B ( talk) 00:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, I'm tempted to take the article all the way back to the last time I edited it, modulo copyediting. It bugs the daylights out of the me that this stuff just takes over articles: see Point Lookout Light for another case. Mangoe ( talk) 03:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Note: WP:NOR has nothing to do with whether editors think a claim is true or even plausible. The problem here is that the claim that the picture has anything to do with a ghost is simply an editor's own assertioin with no reliable source to support it. If there were a photograph that was associated with a notable claim of ghost-sighting with reliable sources to support it, there would be no problem including it in the article and describing the claim associated with it. The UFO article, for example, has long had pictures of notable claimed UFO sightings and there's absolutely no policy problem including them. The difference is that the pictures in that article are reliably sourced as connected with notable UFO sighting claims. Ghost and UFO claims are not extraordinary. They're made all the time and have long historical and cultural roots. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 04:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to put things strait. This picture was not altered in any way whatsoever. The date you refer to as New Years is inaccurate as the time the pic was taken. My camera automatically resets the date to new years when you change batteries. the pic was actually taken mid day August 7th 2007 as I stated in the article. I do still have the original file, it is completely unedited. Whether or not you believe it is a ghost is up to the individual. I cannot truely say myself that it was a ghost as I only seen it through the pic after developing the file at Walgreens. I have since retured to Moonville, taken several more photos in brighter light and did not capture anything significant. The pic in question was taken on a dim light, slightly rainy, foggy day. There was more to that day than what the pic shows but I did not bother writing all that in the article because I felt that would have been inappropriate use. Either way I felt this was a very good picture of the tunnel and it fits well into the whole story. I would appreciate it if you would allow it back in without the claims of ghosts. Thank you, djlland
This is a proposal to weaken the superseded images policy at commons, which is having effects at Wikipedia such as user confusion about which image to use. -- Rschen7754 ( T C) 04:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
hey guys, your site rocks. i just wanted to offer a suggestion: create a "did you mean...?" service when searching. for example, if i search "barac obama", i get zero responses. but, when i search "barac obama" on google, i get a tag that predicted my intended search with the correct spelling. peace, greg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregtrueblood ( talk • contribs) 08:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to put things strait. This picture was not altered in any way whatsoever. The date you refer to as New Years is inaccurate as the time the pic was taken. My camera automatically resets the date to new years when you change batteries. the pic was actually taken mid day August 5, 2007 as I stated in the article. I do still have the original file, it is completely unedited. Whether or not you believe it is a ghost is up to the individual. I cannot truely say myself that it was a ghost as I only seen it through the pic after developing the file at Walgreens. I have since retured to Moonville, taken several more photos in brighter light and did not capture anything significant. The pic in question was taken on a dim light, slightly rainy, foggy day. There was more to that day than what the pic shows but I did not bother writing all that in the article because I felt that would have been inappropriate use. Either way I felt this was a very good picture of the tunnel and it fits well into the whole story. I would appreciate it if you would allow it back in without the claims of ghosts. Thank you, djlland