This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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Am I out of touch whenever I see a pronunciation guidance in IPA and find it to be of little help? The reason for bringing it up here is to find out if there is a policy against editing an article to add a "sounds like" pronunciation aid. I've seen articles with both IPA and "sounds like" and want to know if there is a policy about adding either or both. hydnjo talk 03:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
The problem I have is that when I look up something like Asperger syndrome I'd like to leave with some knowledge as to how to pronounce Asperger. Does the ending sound like "hamburger" or does it sound like "passenger"? I don't think that regional accents matter much when providing this kind of basic information. We're not going to get everyone who sees the IPA to go and learn IPA! hydnjo talk 19:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Along these lines, is there software we could use that can "speak" IPA? It should be easier than, say, english.--
agr (
talk) 21:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
So, going back to the original question - to find out if there is a policy against editing an article to add a "sounds like" pronunciation aid - has not been answered. Finding no policy or guideline addressing this I thought of bringing it up here to be sure. hydnjo talk 17:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it's great that the News section is not centered on the US but there should be some mention of the primaries there. This is a point where few people are involved and decisions are being made about our future. It would be good to direct people to current updates and also non partisan sources. The NYTs had a grid comparing all the candidates on important topics recently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.45.76 ( talk)
The page is currently at 300,000 bytes. Maybe the time has come for archiving? John Carter ( talk) 21:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there a policy on image renaming? For example, when is it considered acceptable/proper to move an image? I know there is no easy way to move an image, so moving images with some licenses would require the history to be copied, etc. What I am curious about at the moment is probably slightly simpler, a non-free, fair use image (say, a corporate logo).
Would it be acceptable to rename something because the capitalization is incorrect (e.g. Image:Fe-TV logo.PNG)? Or what if the name could be more specific (e.g. Image:Cbslogo.jpg)? Or if the name just is not as obvious as it could be (e.g. Image:Fsn wi.png)?
I am curious if there is any policy on when to rename an image. Short of that, is there any consensus on image renaming etiquette? Thanks. - AWeenieMan ( talk) 04:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I am under the impression that the "general consensus" on Wikipedia is to frown on the unnecessary removal of sourced information, am I correct? Of course this all depends on the quality of the information itself and why it was removed, I am speaking of an actress's product endorsement (for a brand of vodka). Is it frowned upon to remove this content if the information is sourced reliably? As far as I am aware, removal is only justified if the information is libellous and defamatory to the subject of the article (and unreferenced of course) or if a case can be made for the non-notability of the information. Can someone please clarify? Thanks, Ekantik talk
What is a guidebook? Sure, I can understand than an article about, say a tourist attraction, needs to include a lot of history about how that attraction came to be, but it also need to talk about what is there. It just shouldn't include admission information, and directions how to get there, and that sort of thing. To me, this policy means no advertising. But a big subject recently has been list for TV and movie series. Like List of characters/villains/aliens/monsters/episodes/ships/whatever. Most of such articles that I've seen consist of lots of in-world description. People keep saying "Wikipedia is not a guidebook," but I'm having trouble understanding why such a list is a "guidebook" and not encyclopedic. Can it be said that such lists are merely identification guides? If so, does that violate the spirit of WP:NOT#GUIDE? I notice that "identification guide" is not on the list of proscribed forms. Should it be? Or does it merely share the "guide" name? - Freekee ( talk) 05:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there any rule against a user categorizing his/her own userpage in a deleted category? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
To further discuss the issue Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion/Archive/October_2007#Category:LGBT_Wikipedians suggests the category talk page, which would require me to recreate the talk page, at least. This appears to be the forum created for discussing the validity of the category. The category was deleted "based on strength of arguments" ( Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion/Archive/October_2007#Sexuality_and_gender_identification). The primary argument appears to be that the category is unnecessary to collaboration. However, the category was not considered in view of existing "collaborative" user categories such as Category:Wikipedians in Montana, Category:Wikipedia administrators, Category:Wikipedian cellists-2, and Category:Wikipedian composers. The claim that this "category" of potential collaborators is actually more important or relevant to collaboration was cited as a reason to automatically delete. I have never collaborated with Montanans, cellists, or even administrators on Wikipedia through user categories while I have collaborated through Category:LGBT Wikipedians or similar categories. I recreated Category:Queer Wikipedians stating that "This user category is for the purpose of fostering a collaborative environment between queer editors and editors of articles covering queer topics" and placing it under Category:Wikipedians by interest. The "Queer Wikipedians" category is not substantially different from the other subcategories of "Wikipedians by interest" and substantial reasons have not been given for its deletion. Hyacinth ( talk) 07:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 January 8#Category:Queer Wikipedians. Hyacinth ( talk) 07:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
The debate regarding the category and this debate, regarding whether deleted user categories may be placed on user pages, have been separated. To debate the existence of the category please see
Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 January 8#Category:Queer Wikipedians.
Concerning the use of deleted user categories: Please cite and quote a policy which prohibits the use of deleted categories on user pages.
Hyacinth (
talk) 00:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Please discuss the topic at hand. That topic is the use of deleted user categories on user pages. Hyacinth ( talk) 01:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd say when you got admins putting deleted cats back on their user page, on the day after it was deleted, then there's no policy anywhere including the unwritten one that it's not allowed. -- ALLSTAR echo 20:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a fairly common form of protest when a category is deleted in my experience. I don't particularly like it, but I also don't think it would be worth all the drama that would ensue if we made it policy to remove all the redlinks from userpages. If users want to keep redlinks of (non-disruptive) categories on their page, I don't see the harm in letting them. VegaDark ( talk) 04:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=WBZW&action=history
Can we look into a modification into Wiki policy in regard to radio stations? There appear to be many varying degrees of moderating when it comes to which on-air personalities can be listed and remain listed, despite not appearing to fall into the proper realm of notability, such as the case with the article that I have linked here.
I would suggest this: Weekday on-air personalities (Monday thru Friday) should be allowed to be listed, weekend-only personalities should not be, unless it is a nationally-syndicated show such as American Top 40, Hollywood Hamilton, MTV TRL Weekend Countdown, etc.
It would seem that allowing this would violate Wiki:NotDirectory, but for the sake of consistency with these radio station articles, I believe an exception should be made.
I can see some movie articles which have external links to sites which serve trailers for that movie. I don't think such links should be allowed in this encyclopedia. Do you know of any policy which talks on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anshuk ( talk • contribs)
There is a policy change discussion currently taking place at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#References for geographical features with regard to how geographic features are cited and what consitututes a legitimate reference source for them. If you use geographic references of any kind in the articles you edit, this discussion might be worth following and chiming in on. -- Pgagnon999 ( talk) 17:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to get more eyes to review the proposed version of Notability (fiction) beyond what those participating on the current talk page have provided. This is not to get consensus for it yet, but to make sure there are no major issues with it before going to that step. Please address any concerns on WT:FICT. Thank you. -- MASEM 19:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello.
I (think I) have discovered some things.
Theory
I tried to talk about those on pages like what is life or what is god but I later understood that Wikipedia don’t publish new research.
So I gathered my story on my user page.
Among some other claims, I have described a new theory about astrological signs.
Astrological theory
I will like to know what is the policy of Wikipedia on intellectual property regarding such articles that exist on Wikipedia.
I know that Wikipedia don’t publish original articles. But if such articles existed or still exist on pages like users pages, what is the official position of Wikipedia about those articles?
I think that this is more a legal issue but I am curious if a Wikipedia official position exist.
Thanks.
Raffethefirst (
talk) 19:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
- I know that user space is not intended to keep original theory. But I am also 'organizing the work that you are doing on the articles in Wikipedia' like the Wikipedia:User page says. And since is not an rule to delete my user page, the theory will stay there and how said before it will prove that I am the owner of this theory
About the notability of signs what is more to be said?
There is NOBODY notable to talk about signs since nobody did a scientific research on them. There were some people that took the legend and wrote a book with no personal contribution - just put the legend on paper to make some money.
So what exist in signs page are theories wrote by some ancient people that are not notable according to your standards.
My contribution is the only theory in signs domain so far that can be cited as "written by".
So my theory is more notable than all other signs theories that exist on signs page.
Please tell me how this theory will be able to become notable. The only way is to be proved with scientific arguments. But I cant do that since no scientists want to touch such a thing (because of their ignorance).
So to ask for my theory to be proven with science in order to be able to stay in you encyclopedia is like asking for all signs theories to be proved with science and since no one of them is, then all should be removed.
Another thing is that you have a mission not only to Wikipedia but to the world to see an opportunity to improve the knowledge database even if there are no regulation about it. You are a pioneer - you create the knowledge of the world.
Raffethefirst (
talk) 09:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
You did not answer to my question about how can such a theory became notable.
Anyway I think this is my last comment here because I see you are not receptive to my idea and it will be a waist of time for all of us.
Raffethefirst (
talk) 11:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I will answer you on my talk page so we don't change this subject here. I will also put some title to your answer so I can get a link to it. If you don't find this appropriate please put you question on my talk page. Raffethefirst ( talk) 13:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not trying to use the Wikipedia as a forum. I want to improve a Wikipedia article - the signs article. I think the 'notability' don't apply exactly the same to signs subject. On my user page I am organizing the subject for some future moment when I will get acceptance to put that theory there. Raffethefirst ( talk) 08:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
The signs were invented long ago, the people who wrote books about them had no personal contribution to them just reproduced them. So I guess the sign page don't accomplishes you policy requirements because is nothing notable there.
If this is allowed, is a different policy that should be also applying to me. Anyway I do understand that you wont allow me to put my theory in signs page so I will try to comply to your notability requirements. When my theory will become notable I will inform you all and ask for the right to put it there.
I have to take this decision also because I got no favorable response. There was nobody to encourage me. So I cant fight so many determined people.
Raffethefirst (
talk) 09:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be confused as to what Wikipedia means by notable. Nearly everyone else responding to you seems to be confused as to what you are confused about (those people should learn additional critical reading skills).
In Wikipedia, something is "Notable" not if it has been scientifically studied, as you seem to be contending, but if it has been written about by multiple third party sources, independant from the subject. So in other words, in order for your theory to be notable enough for Wikipedia to have an article about it you would have to 1. Get it published. 2. Wait for someone else to write about your theory. (Preferably 2 or 3 someone elses) Make sense now? 206.246.160.29 ( talk) 17:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Over at Talk:Hiram Abiff, there's an argument going on about whether policy is best served by calling Hiram Abiff an allegorical character, because of his use in Masonic ritual, or a real person whose story has been fictionalized, as there is a reference in the Bible to someone who is generally taken as the inspiration for the allegorical character. Can we get an opinion from an uninvolved party? Thanks.-- uɐɔlnʌɟoʞǝɹɐs 14:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I would state that he's fictional in the lead, even if he's based on real persons. Look at Charles Foster Kane, for an example of an article on a fictional character heavily based on real people. Sχeptomaniac χαιρετε 18:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
We had difficulties with this issue on Santa Claus since there are elements of his story that he originates with Saint Nicholas. The current lead on Santa is how we agreed--after a lot of wrangling and accusations of "killing children's dreams"--which was to include that he is a "legendary, historical and mythical character". I don't know if that was the best way, but this was quite a heated topic before the holidays, so I'm interested to see how this pans out. --David Shankbone 19:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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Am I out of touch whenever I see a pronunciation guidance in IPA and find it to be of little help? The reason for bringing it up here is to find out if there is a policy against editing an article to add a "sounds like" pronunciation aid. I've seen articles with both IPA and "sounds like" and want to know if there is a policy about adding either or both. hydnjo talk 03:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
The problem I have is that when I look up something like Asperger syndrome I'd like to leave with some knowledge as to how to pronounce Asperger. Does the ending sound like "hamburger" or does it sound like "passenger"? I don't think that regional accents matter much when providing this kind of basic information. We're not going to get everyone who sees the IPA to go and learn IPA! hydnjo talk 19:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Along these lines, is there software we could use that can "speak" IPA? It should be easier than, say, english.--
agr (
talk) 21:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
So, going back to the original question - to find out if there is a policy against editing an article to add a "sounds like" pronunciation aid - has not been answered. Finding no policy or guideline addressing this I thought of bringing it up here to be sure. hydnjo talk 17:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it's great that the News section is not centered on the US but there should be some mention of the primaries there. This is a point where few people are involved and decisions are being made about our future. It would be good to direct people to current updates and also non partisan sources. The NYTs had a grid comparing all the candidates on important topics recently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.45.76 ( talk)
The page is currently at 300,000 bytes. Maybe the time has come for archiving? John Carter ( talk) 21:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there a policy on image renaming? For example, when is it considered acceptable/proper to move an image? I know there is no easy way to move an image, so moving images with some licenses would require the history to be copied, etc. What I am curious about at the moment is probably slightly simpler, a non-free, fair use image (say, a corporate logo).
Would it be acceptable to rename something because the capitalization is incorrect (e.g. Image:Fe-TV logo.PNG)? Or what if the name could be more specific (e.g. Image:Cbslogo.jpg)? Or if the name just is not as obvious as it could be (e.g. Image:Fsn wi.png)?
I am curious if there is any policy on when to rename an image. Short of that, is there any consensus on image renaming etiquette? Thanks. - AWeenieMan ( talk) 04:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I am under the impression that the "general consensus" on Wikipedia is to frown on the unnecessary removal of sourced information, am I correct? Of course this all depends on the quality of the information itself and why it was removed, I am speaking of an actress's product endorsement (for a brand of vodka). Is it frowned upon to remove this content if the information is sourced reliably? As far as I am aware, removal is only justified if the information is libellous and defamatory to the subject of the article (and unreferenced of course) or if a case can be made for the non-notability of the information. Can someone please clarify? Thanks, Ekantik talk
What is a guidebook? Sure, I can understand than an article about, say a tourist attraction, needs to include a lot of history about how that attraction came to be, but it also need to talk about what is there. It just shouldn't include admission information, and directions how to get there, and that sort of thing. To me, this policy means no advertising. But a big subject recently has been list for TV and movie series. Like List of characters/villains/aliens/monsters/episodes/ships/whatever. Most of such articles that I've seen consist of lots of in-world description. People keep saying "Wikipedia is not a guidebook," but I'm having trouble understanding why such a list is a "guidebook" and not encyclopedic. Can it be said that such lists are merely identification guides? If so, does that violate the spirit of WP:NOT#GUIDE? I notice that "identification guide" is not on the list of proscribed forms. Should it be? Or does it merely share the "guide" name? - Freekee ( talk) 05:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there any rule against a user categorizing his/her own userpage in a deleted category? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
To further discuss the issue Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion/Archive/October_2007#Category:LGBT_Wikipedians suggests the category talk page, which would require me to recreate the talk page, at least. This appears to be the forum created for discussing the validity of the category. The category was deleted "based on strength of arguments" ( Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion/Archive/October_2007#Sexuality_and_gender_identification). The primary argument appears to be that the category is unnecessary to collaboration. However, the category was not considered in view of existing "collaborative" user categories such as Category:Wikipedians in Montana, Category:Wikipedia administrators, Category:Wikipedian cellists-2, and Category:Wikipedian composers. The claim that this "category" of potential collaborators is actually more important or relevant to collaboration was cited as a reason to automatically delete. I have never collaborated with Montanans, cellists, or even administrators on Wikipedia through user categories while I have collaborated through Category:LGBT Wikipedians or similar categories. I recreated Category:Queer Wikipedians stating that "This user category is for the purpose of fostering a collaborative environment between queer editors and editors of articles covering queer topics" and placing it under Category:Wikipedians by interest. The "Queer Wikipedians" category is not substantially different from the other subcategories of "Wikipedians by interest" and substantial reasons have not been given for its deletion. Hyacinth ( talk) 07:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 January 8#Category:Queer Wikipedians. Hyacinth ( talk) 07:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
The debate regarding the category and this debate, regarding whether deleted user categories may be placed on user pages, have been separated. To debate the existence of the category please see
Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 January 8#Category:Queer Wikipedians.
Concerning the use of deleted user categories: Please cite and quote a policy which prohibits the use of deleted categories on user pages.
Hyacinth (
talk) 00:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Please discuss the topic at hand. That topic is the use of deleted user categories on user pages. Hyacinth ( talk) 01:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd say when you got admins putting deleted cats back on their user page, on the day after it was deleted, then there's no policy anywhere including the unwritten one that it's not allowed. -- ALLSTAR echo 20:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a fairly common form of protest when a category is deleted in my experience. I don't particularly like it, but I also don't think it would be worth all the drama that would ensue if we made it policy to remove all the redlinks from userpages. If users want to keep redlinks of (non-disruptive) categories on their page, I don't see the harm in letting them. VegaDark ( talk) 04:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=WBZW&action=history
Can we look into a modification into Wiki policy in regard to radio stations? There appear to be many varying degrees of moderating when it comes to which on-air personalities can be listed and remain listed, despite not appearing to fall into the proper realm of notability, such as the case with the article that I have linked here.
I would suggest this: Weekday on-air personalities (Monday thru Friday) should be allowed to be listed, weekend-only personalities should not be, unless it is a nationally-syndicated show such as American Top 40, Hollywood Hamilton, MTV TRL Weekend Countdown, etc.
It would seem that allowing this would violate Wiki:NotDirectory, but for the sake of consistency with these radio station articles, I believe an exception should be made.
I can see some movie articles which have external links to sites which serve trailers for that movie. I don't think such links should be allowed in this encyclopedia. Do you know of any policy which talks on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anshuk ( talk • contribs)
There is a policy change discussion currently taking place at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#References for geographical features with regard to how geographic features are cited and what consitututes a legitimate reference source for them. If you use geographic references of any kind in the articles you edit, this discussion might be worth following and chiming in on. -- Pgagnon999 ( talk) 17:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to get more eyes to review the proposed version of Notability (fiction) beyond what those participating on the current talk page have provided. This is not to get consensus for it yet, but to make sure there are no major issues with it before going to that step. Please address any concerns on WT:FICT. Thank you. -- MASEM 19:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello.
I (think I) have discovered some things.
Theory
I tried to talk about those on pages like what is life or what is god but I later understood that Wikipedia don’t publish new research.
So I gathered my story on my user page.
Among some other claims, I have described a new theory about astrological signs.
Astrological theory
I will like to know what is the policy of Wikipedia on intellectual property regarding such articles that exist on Wikipedia.
I know that Wikipedia don’t publish original articles. But if such articles existed or still exist on pages like users pages, what is the official position of Wikipedia about those articles?
I think that this is more a legal issue but I am curious if a Wikipedia official position exist.
Thanks.
Raffethefirst (
talk) 19:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
- I know that user space is not intended to keep original theory. But I am also 'organizing the work that you are doing on the articles in Wikipedia' like the Wikipedia:User page says. And since is not an rule to delete my user page, the theory will stay there and how said before it will prove that I am the owner of this theory
About the notability of signs what is more to be said?
There is NOBODY notable to talk about signs since nobody did a scientific research on them. There were some people that took the legend and wrote a book with no personal contribution - just put the legend on paper to make some money.
So what exist in signs page are theories wrote by some ancient people that are not notable according to your standards.
My contribution is the only theory in signs domain so far that can be cited as "written by".
So my theory is more notable than all other signs theories that exist on signs page.
Please tell me how this theory will be able to become notable. The only way is to be proved with scientific arguments. But I cant do that since no scientists want to touch such a thing (because of their ignorance).
So to ask for my theory to be proven with science in order to be able to stay in you encyclopedia is like asking for all signs theories to be proved with science and since no one of them is, then all should be removed.
Another thing is that you have a mission not only to Wikipedia but to the world to see an opportunity to improve the knowledge database even if there are no regulation about it. You are a pioneer - you create the knowledge of the world.
Raffethefirst (
talk) 09:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
You did not answer to my question about how can such a theory became notable.
Anyway I think this is my last comment here because I see you are not receptive to my idea and it will be a waist of time for all of us.
Raffethefirst (
talk) 11:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I will answer you on my talk page so we don't change this subject here. I will also put some title to your answer so I can get a link to it. If you don't find this appropriate please put you question on my talk page. Raffethefirst ( talk) 13:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not trying to use the Wikipedia as a forum. I want to improve a Wikipedia article - the signs article. I think the 'notability' don't apply exactly the same to signs subject. On my user page I am organizing the subject for some future moment when I will get acceptance to put that theory there. Raffethefirst ( talk) 08:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
The signs were invented long ago, the people who wrote books about them had no personal contribution to them just reproduced them. So I guess the sign page don't accomplishes you policy requirements because is nothing notable there.
If this is allowed, is a different policy that should be also applying to me. Anyway I do understand that you wont allow me to put my theory in signs page so I will try to comply to your notability requirements. When my theory will become notable I will inform you all and ask for the right to put it there.
I have to take this decision also because I got no favorable response. There was nobody to encourage me. So I cant fight so many determined people.
Raffethefirst (
talk) 09:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be confused as to what Wikipedia means by notable. Nearly everyone else responding to you seems to be confused as to what you are confused about (those people should learn additional critical reading skills).
In Wikipedia, something is "Notable" not if it has been scientifically studied, as you seem to be contending, but if it has been written about by multiple third party sources, independant from the subject. So in other words, in order for your theory to be notable enough for Wikipedia to have an article about it you would have to 1. Get it published. 2. Wait for someone else to write about your theory. (Preferably 2 or 3 someone elses) Make sense now? 206.246.160.29 ( talk) 17:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Over at Talk:Hiram Abiff, there's an argument going on about whether policy is best served by calling Hiram Abiff an allegorical character, because of his use in Masonic ritual, or a real person whose story has been fictionalized, as there is a reference in the Bible to someone who is generally taken as the inspiration for the allegorical character. Can we get an opinion from an uninvolved party? Thanks.-- uɐɔlnʌɟoʞǝɹɐs 14:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I would state that he's fictional in the lead, even if he's based on real persons. Look at Charles Foster Kane, for an example of an article on a fictional character heavily based on real people. Sχeptomaniac χαιρετε 18:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
We had difficulties with this issue on Santa Claus since there are elements of his story that he originates with Saint Nicholas. The current lead on Santa is how we agreed--after a lot of wrangling and accusations of "killing children's dreams"--which was to include that he is a "legendary, historical and mythical character". I don't know if that was the best way, but this was quite a heated topic before the holidays, so I'm interested to see how this pans out. --David Shankbone 19:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)