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I have recently seen it contended, for the first time in my experience, that being an "expert" on a topic should give someone's opinions additional weight in an AfD. This claim was made here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Able and Baker (2nd nomination). (Note that the outcome of the AfD is irrelevant here; I might end up changing my vote anyway.) The claim was supported with this quote from Jimbo, which I don't read as having anything to do with expertise. Rather, I tend to assume "credibility" and "reputation" refer to having a track record of editing in good faith—which means doing enough research to "vote" in an informed way. I can't see how giving special emphasis to "expert" editors on AfD's makes any more sense than giving them special rights in the article namespace—which, I understand from WP:NOR#The role of expert editors, we don't do.
Obviously, of course, experts will likely be able to cite reputable sources, and sway people to their opinion in AfD's. I am referring only to the contention that the admin closing the debate should give the single "expert" user's opinon extra weight in the debate.
I'd like to hear other views on this, or maybe be referred to previous debates/discussions that shed light on this. It doesn't make sense to me at all, but I could be wrong. -- SCZenz 22:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
One thing that should be mentioned in this discussion is time. When providing an edit to an article, we have an attitude of "eventually." If I, as an expert, am busy, and do not have time to go do research to find a great quote, and it waits for a week or two, no harm is done.
Deletion debates are completely different. They have a five day window, after which it is inordinately difficult to overturn them. Which means that experts are expected to do all necessary citation and sourcing work on a deadline, or else the article will be deleted forevermore. That's not reasonable. If deletion debates are going to have a deadline, we have to also be more permissive in giving people who know what they're talking about preference, citations or no. Snowspinner 19:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm an academic, and perhaps an "expert" in a few areas -- but it's important to remember that university expertise is highly specialized, and professors have a tendency, sometimes, to overstate the breadth of their expertise. Personally, I think that Wikipedia is exciting precisely because it permits the co-production of knowledge by experts and the public. The process can get sloppy, of course, but it's revolutionary. Don't forget that many crucial advances developed outside universities; academic rigor seems, sometimes, to develop into rigor mortis. -- Bryan 16:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
In the past week, I have seen two occasions where an article was tagged with {{AfD}}, then the nominator saw that several users voted to Keep, and then changed his/her mind and removed the AfD tag before the nom has run its course. Is that permitted? In one case I retagged the article, even though I agreed that it needed to be kept, and voted so. -- Rogerd 03:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I am getting conflicting opinions here. Friday is saying that what I saw may be OK. Others are saying it has to be an admin. In both of these cases, there was clear consensus that the article should be kept, including the nominator (who changed his mind). -- Rogerd 21:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Should Don't bite the newbies apply to autists? I am concerned that in two recent cases, one of which is up before the arbitration committee, newcomers exhibiting what appears to be autistic behavior, not obvious vandals and not obvious trolls, have been abused and alienated because other editors did not understand their behavior.
Perhaps Wikipedia needs a policy or guideline to enable Recent changes patrollers, who are often the first to notice new editors, to recognise autistic editing patterns and welcome autists in a more appropriate manner.
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people) Steve block talk 11:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion Steve block talk 11:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Please do not bite the newcomers Steve block talk 11:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
This somewhat moribund discusion could use broader community input. Currently has strong focus on webcomics, but this is an area where we could clearly use a guideline re:
WP:MUSIC.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 06:34, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I am somewhat confused about the policies and rights concerning the remote use of Wikipedia content. What I am specifically interested in is whether Wikipedia allows one to dynamically use (or "remote load") articles, or parts of some, on one's own web site.
To give a more concrete (albeit totally hypothetical) example: Say, one has a web site that publishes news related to American and British jazz charts. Now, the website would have a database that includes the different artists and a record of their chart positions. This database would be used to generate individual artist pages so that a visitors could in one view see, for example, how artist X's albums have charted over the years. Yet, it would be nice to have a biographical introduction to the artist as well. The question then is, could one dynamically use, for example, the first paragraph of a related Wikipedia article (which usually gives an overview) on one's own page, of course with the relevant acknowledgements about the source of the content?
The use of Wikipedia material appears to be allowed under the GNU Free Documentation Licence ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us#Copyright_issues). However, remote loading appears to be prohibited ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:FORK#Remote_loading). Yet, I am not totally sure if a "mirror site" in this context also means a web site that remote-loads only a relatively small part of the whole Wikipedia? This is especially unclear to me as Wikipedia in fact offers, even seems to encourage, a way to remote-load data from Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ADownload#Why_not_just_retrieve_data_from_wikipedia.org_at_runtime?).
It then seems that while the use of content is allowed, using it dynamically (i.e. remote-loading it) is not? Does this apply even when the content used is only a very small part of the whole of Wikipedia?
Of course, restricting remote-loading is understandable considering the potential extra traffic generated for Wikipedia servers (especially web crawlers are mentioned in the "Remote Loading" text quoted above). However, if this is the only reason why remote-loading is prohibited, would the following then be allowed: Instead of loading the page content from Wikipedia every time a user visits one's website, the content would be loaded from a mirror-like file on one's own web site. This file, then, would be kept relatively up-to-date by rewriting it once a week or so by remote-loading the Wikipedia article. This would not generate more than one extra hit per week per article and would hence probably not significantly strain the Wikipedia servers.
I wonder what the views on all of this are?
-- Vili 11:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Are Arbitration decisions enforced? In Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Climate change dispute#Remedies are several remedies, but the corresponding Enforcement section does not list any actions. Was nobody banned, and no actions taken? ( SEWilco 07:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC))
On the Jehovah's Witnesses-related pages, there are regular arguments over exactly what JWs believe. Each party provides long lists of quotes on the talk page, which soon get archived and forgotten.
The Wikipedia:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses is working on redoing the pages to include references for all claims about their beliefs, but there are often claims of out-of-context quoting and contradictory references. (JW publications often do this.) Nearly every statement will need a reference as these are highly disputed pages, and this will lead to a very large references section.
It would save a lot of time and space if a subpage could be used to quote the references and their contexts. I know subpages aren't used for this normally, but I think this would be a useful exception. -- K. AKA Konrad West TALK 02:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
After User:Silsor removed the entry on ITN about "President George W. Bush nominates Samuel A. Alito, Jr to the United States Supreme Court". [1], we both got into a discussion about the quote on Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page that says "It should be a story of an international importance, or at least interest."
My question: is there any sort of good way one can determine if a news story qualifies for that criteria so one can add it to ITN, or remove an entry if it does not fit? Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi I'm passing on a request from the Talk:John Prescott page. Is there anywhere on WP to post image requests? as the above page, & a few others, need pictures. Thanks AllanHainey 13:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
It is really disturbing. Again and again yankee treat en(glish-language).wikipedia.org as US.wikipedia.org and remove anything that does not fit the lone gunman republican worldwiew. Especially sociology and related is impossible to improve, because social rights, egalitarian society and similar issues are always erased by american and blairist british vandals. Articles are maliciously misrepresented, e.g. editors make sure "social democracy" always appears described as an evil ideology fellow travelling with communism, when in fact it is a form of capitalist governance, which brought great prosperity and universal happiness with high quality of life for swveral european countries.
In general anything that does not appeal to money counting honest yankee is POV and gets deleted. European (rest-of-the-world) brains are so differently programmed from US brains that there can be no common experience or understanding between the two races, the anglo-saxon and l'homme. American way of thinking is very mechanical and legalistic (e.g. weapons ban in schools not OK due to interstate commerce) and always remains impossible to understand for europeans, who think what a jungle it must be where kids bring guns to schools! Americans always view themselves with the society as something useless or possibly evil, which they should tweak and exploit to serve their individual interests, while europeans think one's search for happiness can only be successful if it doesn't hurt but rather contribute to the common good. It looks like americans are first and foremost their own self-gods, who prey on whatever life offers them.
This is a recurring experience and repels many non-US people from contributing to the current en.wikipedia.org. I am sorry to say, but the solution to this problem is to make en.wikipedia.org split and create separete en-us.wikipedia.org and en-rest-of-the-world.wikipedia.org. Currently US based editors have numerical superiorty and are always vigilant to revert any of your un-eagle-ish additions, so what remains is a dubya-approved lecture book meant for the sunday school, rather than an encyclopedia. I may not stay here for long if this frustration remains. 213.178.102.147 14:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
User:213.178.102.147, you might like to look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias and the talk page with that article. Philip Baird Shearer 16:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the judges aren't always consistent... they ruled that the federal government could ban medical marijuana nationwide, even where it applies to pot being grown by an individual for his own consumption, entirely within a state that legalized it, because that could have a tenuous effect on interstate commerce. This one cited a 1940s decision that similarly let the feds regulate farmers growing grain to feed to their own animals. So I wish they would apply the principles of federalism in a consistently legalistic manner. *Dan T.* 17:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Say there is an article title, and
What should the article contain?
This concerns talk:Ten Commandments, but my question is asking what the general principle is in Wikipedia when this sort of issue arises? --francis 21:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
As this discussion pertains to Ten Commandments, I suggest remaining answers are collated there. JFW | T@lk 21:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I'm not a fan of the infobox. I've been creating articles on cities, the ones that were put up automatically in late 2002. The majority of them are the same as when they were first uploaded, but about one in four have some different info as well and I write that in manually. However! I'm not a fan of the infobox at all. I don't see it saving time anywhere, as you still have to write in each section as you would in a basic table, and moreover a lot of them are way too complex.
Check this out: this monster of an infobox (for me). What is this if defined call 1 business? If a web page exists, call 1 and then it gets added? This is way too complex for Wikipedia. Why not just add an extra line to a table if you need it? I keep all the tables from the original article if I can see the code and simply cut and paste it over, but not this. Plus, I heard that our Wikipedia ( Ido) doesn't even have some of the software needed for some of the functions - that's what I was told when I asked a question on the helpdesk. Does anyone agree that this is too complex? I don't see an infobox saving anyone any time, least of all me. Unless I am missing something really obvious that would fix everything and make the infobox a marvel of simplicity, but somehow I doubt it. mithridates
Well thank you for that, but that's exactly the point. People have been going willy-nilly about the talk page discussing how it works when in my opinion we should just have a source code that can be cut and pasted. Don't forget that there seem to be a few dozen people working on that one infobox, but most languages don't have that luxury. I'm sure I'll cave in a bit and make a box for us that works but I love it when the source code is right on the page and I only have to change the language itself. Mithridates 08:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I proposed a change to Wikipedia:No Original Research to deal with photos taken and uploaded by Wikipedia editors. See the talk page section here. The gist is: It's OK and doesn't count as unallowed original research, since photos are generally illustrative and do not propose ideas. Thanks - Tempshill 19:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks#Proposed_edit_of_remedies_re_removal. -- SCZenz 17:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
We've encountered some unusual issues in regards to image use and the GFDL on Talk:Burning Man. The Burning Man event requires that all attendees agree not to use images they take at the event for commercial purposes.
We are attempting to obtain permission from the Burning Man organization to use some pictures on the page, but they are leery of releasing images under the GFDL. Even reporters and other members of the media, who are given special permission to make commercial use of images they take, must agree to very restrictive uses of those images which are probably incompatible with the GFDL. The discussion is two fold: is there a way to get the BMorg to agree to our use of the images, and if they do not agree what do we do? This is an unusual issue with which I am having some difficulty applying our image policies and may not be an area which has come up in exactly this way before.
Background on the discussion can be found at Talk:Burning Man#Images of/at Burning_Man and Talk:Burning Man#Letter to Bman's Media Team. The most recent updates and ongoing discussion can be found in Talk:Burning Man#Dialogue w/ Burning Man Media Team 2.
Comments from those more experienced in these issues appreciated on that page. Kit 01:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, just to clarify: the images are owned by the original copyright holder who took them while attending the Burning Man event; however, attendees technically agreed to not release photos for commercial use without permission of the Burning Man organization's media team. The biggest question is, are we (that is Wikipedia, as I won't be submitting my own images in violation of this) or should we be bound by this restriction?
IMHO I would like to see us abide by the restriction because it shows Wikipedia is a good citizen, but I recognize it might set a very bad precedent.
The second, smaller question is, is it fair to represent the GFDL as potentially protecting against use of images taken at Burning Man in corporate advertisements? This seems to be the major concern of the Burning Man media team, but in my reading of the GFDL if, for example, Coca-Cola were to use an image of Burning Man which had been placed into the GFDL in one of their commercials, they would also have to release the commercial itself into the GFDL. In addition, my understanding is Coca-Cola would also have to somehow either include the entire text of the GFDL in their ads or link to Wikipedia's copy of the GFDL in their ad? Kit 07:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I am the copyright holder of one of the images in question; Image:Neonman.jpg, which had been released under the GFDL. Can I now revoke that somehow and retro-license it under, say, FairUseAndPermission or somesuch? - Ali-oops ✍ 08:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
People with such photographs might want to consider licensing them with {{ Limited Use}}. This permits reuse, including for commercial purposes, but only in connection with a proper encyclopedic article about the subject or in which the subject is referenced. There is also {{ Limited Use-person}} for pictures of individual people. That might avoid the problems that the Burning Man agreement was intended to deal with. Whether this would adaquetely protect such a photographer is a legal question, and IANAL, and i haven't even seen the text of the Burning Man photo agreement so i have no useful opnion. DES (talk) 15:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Images and video which are reproductions of an event or performance (especially one occurring on private property) are considered to be derivative works of that performance and hence require the copyright permission of the performers. Examples of this that are often defended are movies and sporting events. I can not just go into a movie theater, video tape the movie, and resell it. That is a clear violation of production company's copyright. Similarly, I can't take photos or video at a sporting event (e.g. a football game) and then go distribute those without the express permission of the authority managing the event (e.g. the NFL). The same rules apply to performance art (especially on private property) though an artist defending their rights in that case is more uncommon.
As a matter of law, if we knowingly allow to be violated the copyright of a third party, then the contributory infringement clause of US copyright law can apply. Which is to say that even though we are not parties to the agreement, if we redistribute content under terms we know to be invalid, then we could be culpable as well.
There are some gray areas here. For example, the copyright would nominally vest in the performers, and without some statement of assignment, it is not obvious that the Burning Man Group has the authority to dictate terms of use. (Maybe such an agreement is part of the permission to attend the event?) So, I would not be sure that Burning Man would win the legal dispute; however, for us there is a simpler solution that avoids the potential problem. In the context, there are very good grounds for fair use and since the only thing we are worried about is the non-commercial clause, no one would have to violate the terms of their agreement if we argue that fair use is our rationale for inclusion. Dragons flight 15:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Do you think images taken at Burning Man dealing with the event or related topics would qualify as fair use? Kit 19:57, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Plenty of major commercial publications have run pictures of Burning Man in articles about the event. How do they get around this? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Their photographers got permissioin from the Burning Man media team, who object to the images being entered into the GFDL because of the unlimited commercial use clause. i.e., if a picture appeared in Time Magazine the photographer got permission to publish the photos in that magazine, but agreed not to publish it elsewhere such as a stock photography service. The media team is concerned/objects to the way they would no longer control the future uses of images posted to Wikipedia, and how it could, they fear, eventually end up in an advertisement as a consequence. Kit 03:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
In response to Jimbo's intervention, I've offered a proposal regarding the Arbitration Committee elections, which would affect how the arbitration system works generally. Please direct comments to the linked page. -- Michael Snow 04:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
I've been patrolling images the last few days and noticed a few instances of people uploading .pdf files. Image:Turinys.pdf is an example from today. What is the intention of letting people do this? It won't show up as an image in our pages. (And, probably beside the point, it's not really a free format.) Tempshill 22:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Listed on IFD. ~~ N ( t/ c) 02:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The traditional and valuable underlining of lks w/in WP (& i presume into sister-projects) has been coming and going, as if someone is working on that code & testing it live. Hopefully that is not proposed as a new standard. If someone prefers it, then it should become a Prefs choice: lks are the lifeblood of WP, and making them less visible is bad not only immediately for users but also for WP in the long run. (I hate to think what the 5-10% of color blind users would do; the blue-vs.-black contrast is low enough for my normal vision.)
--
Jerzy•
t 19:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Why this pic haven't be deleted ? What are you doing here ? Do you know other projects needs to copy your pics ? We need trust your content, please do something. I don't understand what kind of policy you do. I know other projects needs you to be more grave. Petrusbarbygere 02:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Since the image doesn't meet any of the criteria at WP:CSD, it will have to wait 5 days before it can be removed, given that there are no objections to it's removal at WP:IFD. - Greg Asche (talk) 21:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I've taken off the IFD tag, as I see no reason it should be deleted, and no such reasoning was ever added to the IFD page. ~~ N ( t/ c) 20:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
In the context of an article about Katherine Hepburn, the picture surely qualifies for fair use. Wikipedia is in no trouble here. However, if you copy it and distribute it, you are in the wrong, unless you also have some claim to fair use. To see an image's licensing status, click on the image and read the image's license from the page that opens. Pedant 17:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Please review Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Crown copyright, a discussion of how Crown Copyright relates to fair use (created by Bearcat). Superm401 | Talk 03:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed that there artciles on larger companies such as "Rolex", "Breitling", etc.
I would like to write a small article about my company, which is not such a huge company. I know the policy states that this is not a place to advertise businesses, and that would not be my sole purpose.
I am wondering what differentiates articles on companies such as Rolex from the type of article I am proposing to write?
Wouldn't it be fair to say that if an article is allowed about 1 company that it should be allowed for all?
I appreciate your support.
"I would like to write a small article about my company, which is not such a huge company."
to avoid problems, I would wait until someone else writes about your company, otherwise it may easily be construed as vanity or advertisement. Also, as you say, it's a small company. Is there some notability which would make it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia? Is the information about your company available elsewhere or is it your own original research? Original research, vanity articles and articles that are {or might be reasonably assumed to be) advertisement are generally not allowed by Wikipedia custom and policy. Pedant 17:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I recently created an image tagging template, template:userpage-image, for images used on userpages. The template specifies that the images are not "free", in that they may not be used outside userpage space, as fx I want the privacy of deciding who can use my image of myself.
I though this was the obvious way to go, as it seems perfectly reasonable to me. It doesn't matter to Wikipedia's goal of building a free encyclopedia that the images are non-free, as long as they are only used on userspace pages. It is also my impression that I was simply writing down existing practice.
Now template:userpage-image as been put on templates for deletion, and the userpage images which used it has been listed on IFD as non-GFDL images. If this goes through it seems to establish policy that all images in the future must be GFDL. Surprisingly, the consensus so far seems to be delete, though as far as I can see no arguments with merit has been put forth for deletion. So I am asking that people take a look, and hopefully vote keep :). Thue | talk 00:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I received a message stating to me that images I uploaded (as the author) can not be tagged with a copyright by the Wikipedia Foundation. One particular image titled "Le Marche.JPG" seem to create a problem (see Ariele's talk page for further details). Can someone explain? Ariele 12:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I am interested in reusing some of Wikipedia's math articles, after modifications, as narrative transcripts for commercial multimedia software products. If a "transparent" copy of the modified narrative transcript document is provided under the GFDL and all compliances are fulfilled (authorship attribution, an transparent original document is provided, etc.), does the rest of the multimedia software product (artwork, recorded narration, music, programming code) fall under "individual works" and thus able to be licensed commercially? Or does it all fall under "derivative works"?
Here is a question for fellow Wikipedians. I recently had an editing dispute with another editor. In order to resolve the editing dispute, the editor in question set up a poll (so far so good). Then he turns around and cuts and pastes to the pages of a number of different editors a request to edit in this poll; editors he feels will support him. Is this ethical? Is this something a good Wikipedia editor will do to resolve an edit conflict? I feel that he is trying to stack the vote; however "getting the vote out" is a long-standing tradition (this is how the religious conservatives can get people to support Intelligent design on school boards, since normally no one votes for who should be on a school board). Thoughts? Samboy 07:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Is there a policy on having a list that is identical to a category? There is a list List of Western Australian towns which has the same meaning (but much less content) than the Category:Towns in Western Australia. My first thought was the list could just be replaced with a redirect to the category and the links fixed, but on further thought the list is simpler to link to in the manner used (in this case) from Western Australia. So it might be better to have both and update the list. Sorry if this is an FAQ, I did look around a bit first. IanBailey 04:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a new language policy proposal at Wikipedia:Language policy. Dass 11:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a new policy proposal at Wikipedia:Hypothetical_Future_Concensus. the1physicist 15:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I have moved comments to the policy's talk page so that any discussion will not be fragmented. the1physicist 20:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I've found uses of this phrase in articles as an attempt to give a reference to a particular period in time, sometimes when the subject matter is mentioned in the Bible, [2] sometimes when it's far removed. [3] Not only is the term hopelessly imprecise (even fundamentalist Christians believe this ranges from 4004 BC to shortly after 33 AD), but it also imposes a sectarian view on history and events to classify them by their coincidence with a period described in one holy book (and as it is named by one religion...it's never "Torah times," mind you), and I think it does this in a clear way that "BC" and "AD" do not (so let's not beat that dead horse). Google shows 192 uses of the phrase on Wikipedia, [4] some of which may be valid in context (though the imprecision will likely still be a problem), others not. Other than replacing it with "a few thousand years ago," I don't know what else to do with it, so I just wanted to bring attention to the issue so that more knowledgeable people on these subjects can make the specific corrections needed. Postdlf 00:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I am interested in reusing some of Wikipedia's math articles, after modifications, as narrative transcripts for commercial multimedia software products. If a "transparent" copy of the modified narrative transcript document is provided under the GFDL and all compliances are fulfilled (authorship attribution, an transparent original document is provided, etc.), does the rest of the multimedia software product (artwork, recorded narration, music, programming code) fall under "individual works" and thus able to be licensed commercially? Or does it all fall under "derivative works"?
Is there a Wikipedia policy on whether previews are licensed under the GFDL? I don't think it should ever be an issue, but I was curious. Taken very literally, the text below the editing box, "All edits are released under the GFDL", would imply so? What do people think? Superm401 | Talk 21:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I think that photos, which are intended to make a specific point, should not be uploaded to Wikipedia unless they have been previously published by a disinterested, reputable 3rd party.
Flikr.com, weblogs, partisan political web sites (dailykos, freerepublic, etc) and such are not acceptable, but commercial news organizations and commericial publishers and to a lesser extent, non-profits would be ok. There is simply too much opportunity out there to stage photos, for example:
Supporters of Candidate A take Candidate B's signs and make a big mess in a parking lot with them and leave also a lot of trash like water bottles and sandwich wrappers.... the Wiki caption for this reads, "trash left behind after local rally for B".
Clearly it's a staged photo intended to make a point. If the control parameter of "intended to make a point" is not enforced, the excuse regarding the above scenario would be "I found the trash & signs in the parking lot and merely snapped the photo". Such assertions could not be disproved, opening a pandora's box of scheming opporunities.
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 06:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
One does not need to "define intent". Rather one only needs to make clear that a photo can be not will be, but can be deemed an NOR violation if it's obvious the intent is to "make a specific point", see my hypothetical example (above) or this actual photo, which caused an actual edit dispute at John Kerry and which was a personally produced, primary source created by the Wikipedian who uploaded it.
You wouldn't deny that this particular photo is "intended to make a point" would you?
Here is another hypothetical: Around where I live, there are many Mennonite families, all of which (that I know of) have "Bible verse" signs in front of their homes. A safe photo to show as an example of one of those would be when there is a non-confrontational verse such as "Honor your father and your mother" (10 commandments, #5) displayed. However, a photo of a Mennonite family sign with the verse saying "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16) might not be. Or what about "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father except by means of me" (John.14:6)? This would clearly be "intended to make a point" and a very controversial one at that!
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 07:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
It's true that only when they are put into articles can they be objected to (on any basis). Even so, a photo with an explicit text or other loaded message which is intended to make a specific point and which was created by the Wikipedian who uploaded it, certainly is fraught with risk (see above). If the NOR policy is not made more expansive to address this point, more finagling can sneak in (see above). Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
You miss the point, if loaded photos such as that are allowed to get uploaded/used by Wikipedians who create them, then an arms race of loaded photos can start. Poltical related pages are contentious enough without letting sneaky editors cheat to get biased/loaded/POV photos -which they created- into the articles. Read Talk:John Kerry and also the edit history for John Kerry to see how that photo was actually defended! Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't want problem images (of the type I refer to above) deleted. Rather, I want a clear NOR basis for objecting to them in articles. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 09:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Your example with "stained glass" has no text on a sign, which is part and parcel of my concern. As for John 14:6, there are many editors on this wiki who 100% reject that message and would be offended at it. Original research photographs must be innocuous and one which did this (see next), would not be:
Allowing editors to argue viewpoints via the proof of photos which they themselves supply, is indeed unacceptable.
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 13:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
What about the example of the staged candidate A & B? Rex071404 216.153.214.94 22:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
After reading this on UninvitedCompany's user talk,
I came up with an idea. At least in my case (probably others too), a lot of the pictures I want to put up are mainly for my user page, or to show others something that I need help identifying. The ones I would put on my user page are the ones that I would most want to have NC or ND clauses, so the obvious answer is to allow such clauses, but only allow those pictures to be displayed on user pages. Can I get some feedback on this idea? CanadaGirl 02:43, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Is you advice to request a relicense to GFDL of any pictures uploaded "By Permission" (like Comet picture) from the copyright owner? I had used an old "standard form" email to ask for this permission, and now it seems this is no longer "allowed". Or might it be enough to dig out the email exchange with the owner? Awolf002 14:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Cute and irreverent was workable when wikipedia was smaller, but now Wikipedia:Ignore all rules and "Wikipedia is not a beaurocracy" must go. These have created a gunslinger and territorial attitude among the admins, too many think they know better than the rules. Rules are not the enemy. Rules are a means to make the process appear open and fair. They are there for all to see. wikipedia is doing itself a disservice if it doesn't take advantage of the power of a rules based process, and a further disservice, if it pretends to have a rules based process and then thoroughly ignores it. The perception of unfairness and arbitraryness is already prevalent and increasing in the user community. Admin discretion should be reduced and more clearly defined, and abuses quikly addressed and not tolerated out of deference. We don't need a lot more rules, in fact, ideally we would seek some minimal, workable set. But we need a lot less discretion, and a lot more openness and tranparency. The rules should be viewed as protection by the admin community. They don't have to be viewed as unfair, or the enemy if they just follow the rules and are subject to the rules themselves. Because Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is so cute and irreverent and so many people will remain nostaligic about it, perhaps it should not be deleted, but instead move into wikipedia's historical gallery.-- Silverback 23:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The actual problem is that people are making up pages willy nilly, and then stamping "these iz da rulez" (yes, including bad spelling at times!) on those pages, for no sane reason that I can discern (well, except to make themselves feel important, or perhaps to win at wiki nomic! ;-) ) . Most of the actual wiki rules are enforced by software. This is something a lot of people can't quite wrap their heads around. Hence the proliferation of yet even more "rules" pages. All the while, the actual rules are quite different. :-/
I agree that this situation isn't entirely optimal. I'm sort of seeking some round tuits to work it out, it's a big job!
In the mean time, if you pretend that the wikipedia rules are " ignore all rules (as long as you're writing an encyclopedia)", " don't be a dick (instead be nice)" and " Always present a neutral point of view", you probably won't get into too much trouble. More detailed guidelines on how to stay out of trouble can be found at Wikipedia:Simplified ruleset.
If you DO get in trouble , even when following the latter set of guidelines, please contact me immediately, so I can sort out what's going on.
Kim Bruning 23:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I am getting this error today only. Not able to do tests in sand box. Why? How to do test edit now please?? VERY URGENT.
This page is protected and can only be edited by administrators
-- Dore chakravarty 20:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed most articles where a screenshots of a webpage is used usually show the user's full screen including the browser window and any taskbars, showing what apps the user taking the screenshot is running. I suspect a lot of people think uploading screenshots is a chance to show off the themes and apps they may be running. I don't think these things are ever relevant to the subject and I think it should be policy that before uploading a screenshot of a webpage the user edits the image so only the webpage is visible.
Examples:
[6] [7] - This is on the Gmail page and even mentions the browser and OS used, how is this relevant?
Ratify 17:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Guidelines or policy? -- Steve block talk 11:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
See: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Zondor's template -- Francis Schonken 08:38, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
On Wikipedia talk: User page#Personal attacks on Wikipedia pages I have brought up a question: should personal attacks or lists of "bad" users be allowed on User pages? Kit 05:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
But should there be a specific acknowledgement of this on Wikipedia:User page?
The Main categories of Wikipedia (which are in the Template:Eight portals links on the main page) as well as many major Categories such as Category:Philosophy have a layout similar to that of Portals and are reader-oriented. The namespace "Portals" was created recently and is meant exactly for that kind of cases: The "Portal" part of those categories should be made actual Portals on the appropriate namespace.
I think it should now be made a policy (or at least a guideline) that Categories stay categories (pretty much like disambiguation pages should have no other material than the links to the things it disambiguates to) and the Portal material be moved to an appropriate Portal page on the good namespace.
On second thoughts, I'm putting this discussion in Wikipedia talk:Wikiportal, but I thought I'd leave this here as a notice for potentially interested people. Jules LT 00:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Is it possible to program mediawiki to display thumbnails based upon the current resolution of the display they are being displayed upon? I often see edit-wars of people changing the "px"'s of images, and I think the ideal solution of for it to be dependant on the size of the browser window/resolution instead. -- Rebroad 10:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what progress has been made towards establishing a notion of "expert" user, but I have a more limited suggestion:
Articles covering scientific topics should be expected to conform to a reasonably high level of accuracy, which is well above the abilities of most wikipedia admins to adjudicate. We could have a "science" tag which granted page-local admin powers to "science admins", and revoked the page-local admin powers of ordinary admins. Of course, any admin or science admin, or even any user, could add or remove the science tag itself, but its serves as an objective "territory marker". One could even imagine asking the various organizations like the National Academy of Science or the Royal Society for a "confidence vote" in the current wikipedia leaderships ability to appoint the science admins, if wikipedia ever got a noconfidence vote, it would need to reevaluate its choices, but it would generally be a nice source of validation to the whole project.
More generally, we could consider moving to a system where no one has both the power to lock a page, and the power to ban a user. Admins would have the power to block users, and preform other sensitive actions which were non-page-local, but they would not have special page-local powers, like the ability to lock specific pages. Instead this power would be granted only to "expert users" in specific categories. Admins & expert users would take requests from each other seriously, but seperating the powers would improve oversight of discussions where there is a need for real knowedge. Of course, you would probably leave the admins page-local powers over pages which didn't fall into any category with expert users (like pages about internet phenomenon).
We should also have a cleaner system for claiming a qualification, such as a PhD studentship, having a PhD, Full Professorship, Medical Doctorate, Law degree, Judgeship, CEO of a Corperation, etc. I'd envision one page describing the wiki text needed to embed the fancy form of such qualifications, plus a category of admins capable of adjudicating claims about them, if it ever comes up.
Thoughts? - Jeff 134.214.102.33 09:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Its, in principle, a great idea to divide the diffrent admin powers among multiple groups. Its just true that people have diffrent interests. Many admin incited problems are the result of admins drifting away from their core interests. However, your suggestion might make some necissary admin solutions "less elegant". Specifically, you don't seem to want to allow your "science admins" to ban people from editing science pages, so are they just supposed to lock the whole page to stop all conflicts?
Maybe one should just try the following: adminship should come with an area of expertise, and admin status will be revoked for using them outside of that area. The explination box for admin actions could have a dropdown listing the "category" into which the action fell. Admins would be required to honestly report the "category" of the effected pages. If they were not considered an expert in that area, then the action would be queued for one who was an expert to approve.
Please check out the new guideline Wikipedia:POV fork. -- Ben 05:39, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
There are two centralized discussions being held on whether specific sport results, such as cricket matches, should belong on Wikipedia. For sport results in general, please see: Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Sports results. Currently, a large number of cricket match articles have been nominated for deletion. That discussion is being held here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cricket matches articles. -- AllyUnion (talk) 05:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of results of the England national rugby league team. User:Zoe| (talk) 05:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The see also blurb at the beginning of the article says other views on the age of the earth are "non-scientific". While that is true, User:Ergbert would like to see it removed, and it got me thinking perhaps at least within the context redirecting to another article should be sympathetic to the article its sending the reader to. Besides Age of the Earth makes clear what view is held by science. Just wondering if this is a good or bad philosophy for redirecting readers. Feedback on general sympathetic tone of redirects welcome here, but I'd prefer views on the Age of the Earth issue to go on its talk page. Thanks. - Roy Boy 800 21:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I have initiated an RfC based on a recent incident, about the administrator culture of abuse [8]. I also address there objection to the mocking use of m:The wrong version. Please assist me in making this RfC production.-- Silverback 07:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I propose a policy where there is a separate section on the pages where violations are reported, to report violations by admins whether they involve use of admin or just user powers (such as a 3RR violation). The policy shall be that these admin violations are handled first, requiring a higher and less forgiving adherance to the standards than mere user violations. The only admin enforcement which takes higher priority than processing violations by admins would be ongoing vandalism.-- Silverback 03:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
What do we do for pages or images that we think (a hunch) may be copyvios but we don't have a good reason to so believe? Equally what about images where the copyright statement seems incomplete or wrong? Eg Image:Unis.jpg which has {{{1}}} in the box and "it is use for non-comercial purposes at the Wikipedia site." outside the box. ?? SGBailey 12:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
When I split text off from an article onto a separate page, how do I preserve the edit history in a way that meets GFDL requirements? The answer I was given on the Help Desk said to ignore the license requirements and just write "text copied from Foo article" on the edit summary. But that sounds dubious, and I wanted to check with people before I added that information to Wikipedia:How to rename (move) a page or Wikipedia:How to break up a page. -- Creidieki 21:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
There isn't really a way (AFAIK) to split specific edits off like that. Just add the notice saying you copied the text. - Greg Asche (talk) 21:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I suggest adoption of a standard that all template parameter names be lowercase. See Wikipedia_talk:Template namespace#Standard for lowercase parameter_names. ( SEWilco 16:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC))
The nomination of Gallery of Socialist Realism for deletion ( AfD) has lead me to propose changing the policy that WP:NOT an image gallery as it relates to galleries of art and similar topics. Please comment on the proposal at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Proposal to modify WP:NOT an image gallery. Dsmdgold 05:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The Christian Classics Ethereal Library exists as high quality resource for learning about many topics to do with Christianity. It describes itself as "Classic Christian books in electronic format". I am not affiliated with them, however I would like to ask whether we could add links to various authors found in the following list. Would anyone have any concerns? It would strictly go into either the "Further reading" section, or into the "External links" section. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
In adition to the current policy on article naming for biographical articles, it would be very usefull if we had some good guidelines on how to handle the correct forms of address. A quick reference for people to know what honorifics and Post-nominal letters are, and how they should be handled within an article. And how to handle cases where claims to these are disputed or unclear, which often causes edit wars.
Debrett's provide a usefull online guide [9] that might be used as an external reference. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 05:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
i added an RfC asking for feedback/input on the proposed Guidelines for the layout of Bibliographies, Filmographies, and Discographies at this page: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (lists of works)#Basic information, and ordering thereof. The principle question: In what order should basic list item info be put (title, year, isbn, notes), and with or without brackets for years/isbns? Here are some examples (Only 1 response in a week, so duplicating the request here.) -- Quiddity 03:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm hoping to propose the pure wiki deletion system as a new deletion policy, but first want to get as much feedback as possible in order to consider any objections. The official discussion of deletion reform has been ongoing for three months, and pure-wiki deletion seems to have garnered the most support. Please check out the project page and post any comments on the talk page. — Jwanders Talk 21:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
While there have been an informal poll about the desired language order of multilingual lists, with the result of an alphabetical order based on two letter code, no policies have been set up. Why? There should be a consensus on that idea. CG 12:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
How are the names under which these languages are displayed in the list determined? We don't have "nynorsk språk", "Deutsche Sprache", "English language", or "La langue française". So why in the world do we have "Bahasa Indonesia" and "Bahasa Melayu" using the local equivalent of "language" in those names? Gene Nygaard 13:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
As many editors have noted elsewhere, sorting by two-letter code is easiest and least prone to both human and machine error. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 14:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
This bot has been used by its owner Bluemoose ( talk · contribs) to move this template under the References heading. I disagree with this action, for a number of reasons:
Is there concensus for Bluebot's actions? (I have also raised this on the 1911 template talk page and on Wikipedia talk:Bots. Noisy | Talk 10:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Is see user Pcb21 is making many new pages with titles like February 27, 2003. He is breaking up the February 2003 articles. Is this current policy? -- SGBailey 17:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia: Working the system was added by a user, User:NPOVenforcer who was recently blocked. I believe this new "policy" proposal does not add any helpful information and merely muddies the water about how things work here at Wikipedia. In particular, the first entry: stating wikipedia policy (typically NPOV, civility, or assume good faith) to a person that has not violated it, so as to falsely portray the party that is addressed as having violated the policy
suggests that even bringing up policy to a user and asking them to read it might violate Wikipedia policy. If you look at User talk:NPOVenforcer, you will see that the blocked user who wrote this document used this rationale to react with extreme hostility to even polite suggestions that he familiarize himself with WP:NPA, WP:Civility, etc. Given that we already merged Wikipedia:Gaming the system, I think this document should face a similar fate. Kit 20:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Looking for second (or third or whatever) opinion here regarding some external links I came across recently.
Someone (currently using IP User:4.240.213.29), has been adding external links from author pages to audiobooks of the author's works. The first attempts (by IP 4.240.213.43 ( talk · contribs) simply added the same generic link to a dozen pages -- which I reverted -- while the newest batch has taken the time to actually make them to individual works. They still bother me, though:
Pros
Cons
...making clear to me that self-promotion is part of the purpose here.
(For an example, see this.)
Am I overreacting? Does anyone else think of these as borderline linkspam?
-- Calton | Talk 06:42, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I FOUND YOU! BECAUSE I TRY (a response from "the culprit") Thanks for the benefit of the doubt guys, in the last three days I've made tremendous effort (re-writing 100 pages) at LiteralSystems site to work better as a contributing source of knowlege and experience in literary works suitable for inclusion on sites such as wikipedia. On seeing my first (albeit newbyesque) attempts at adding relevant links to wikipedia author pages removed without explanation I emailed helpdesk-l@wikimedia.org to find out why (quoted here)
##begin##
Hi, I've added external links to about 15 authors biography pages but next day they were all removed. Perhaps, there is something I need to understand.
We at LiteralSystems.com make audiobooks released strictly under Creative Commons licensing. There is never a charge and we create quality human voiced readings from public domain literature. Is there any reason why we could not add relevant external links to the authors-bio pages?
let me know please, Warren Smith literalsystems.com
##end##
I never recieved a response. I re-added the links thinking somebody unathoritive removed them since I heard nothing from wikipedia. I used other external links as examples.
Through my own hard research I found this page featuring the subject of my adding links, I'll stay possitive about all this "sleuthing" of motivational design etc.. done by the page watchdogs at wikipedia but a simple return contact or establishing a query to me would have been better and more to the point. But here is quoted a response more in keeping with reality.
##start##
##end##
Sure, I classify as both. But here is an example of overenthusiasm on another editors part as well.
##start##
##end##
If a person looked at my return visit changes they would see evidence of maintenance on my part to add a deeper level of relevancy to the links (besides fixing mistakes). At literalsystems.com we create new and valuable resources released strictly under Creative Commons, and we care about our work. We don't sell anything and don't carry advertisements. If there are any legitimate self promotion issues here regarding our adding links, then it would have to be the fact that we are proud of what we do and want to share it. Any group that claims an interest in creation of real and valued resources freely accessible on the net should recognize others with similar mind sets. That's what I thought I was doing by linking between us.
The problem with hardened mindsets is that their responses take on the simplicity of those who'd rather not know any more than what they already suspect. Moving on. Here is my email contact ([email removed - see page history]).
Thanks for the response (and especially trimming my email) from all. Okay you're not the hardened reactionaries I took you for at first. ;-) Anyway, I've responded to Mr. Gray's email and won't press the issue any further (or bumble around the site anymore) if it is agreed that my links didn't hold any relevance to the author articles at wikipedia. I did take the time to read the articles suggested here and added my logon identity. I feel I have a better conception now of the way things work here. Frankly it's too easy to just come in and make changes, but I am not saying a policy change is needed, no. -- Literalsystems 22:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
How is fair use of images compatible with the GDFL? We've been having discussions regarding fair use of images on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Image problems, because, with comics being a visual medium, a greater proportion of images tend to be used under the fair use banner. However, it has been brought to my attention that fair use may not be compatible with someone using Wikipedia content under the GDFL for commercial use. The thrust is that we are only allowed touse images under fair use such that any subsequent use is also fair use. If this reading is correct, it seems to me to follow that fair use is incompatible with the GDFL, since we do not know how our content is going to be used by any subsequent person or organisation, and there is no conceivable use of fair use that can not be invalidated if used incorrectly. I believe that if this argument is incorrect, that we are allowed to use fair use and that it behooves the subsequent users of Wiki-content to check their usage allows for the fair use of images, then GNU Free Documentation License#Materials for which commercial redistribution is prohibited should be tightened to make this clear, as I was advised that this does not clarify the situation.
It has also been argued, and again I feel wrongly, that Wikipedia can not claim critical usage under the fair use allowances. I believe that Wikipedia articles are a critical evaluation of a subject, and therefore we are allowed to make such fair use claims. Steve block talk 13:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The "Be Bold" guideline was recently revised, and virtually gutted, without notice or discussion. This shows the relevant change. [ [10]] Wikipedia standards/practices call for prior notice, discussion, and consensus before a material revision in guidelines, and that wasn't done here. There is now an ongoing editing dispute -- the fourth or fifth this year, I believe -- involving the usual suspects, including myself. To complicate matters, there was admin intervention today, on the apparent basis that a perceived 2-1 division on involved editors was sufficient to justify the guideline change, even without the notice/discussion called for by guidelines and conducted in previous disputes. The guideline page is now inconsistent, with later sections pretty much contradicting the revised introduction. In previous disputes, editor sentiment as expressed in discussion was substantially against changes of this nature; most recently, in September, a semi-formal poll and extensive discussion rejected less restrictive language, applying only to Featured Articles, by a 2:1 margin. This dispute calls for involvement by a greater range of users, both in terms of the procedure for altering a longstanding guideline and the substance of the change. Monicasdude 20:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
We all know that Jimbo made some changes in our image deletion policy recently. I'm trying to stay updated with the changes, but perhaps this one eluded me: are we no longer allowed to upload images for use in our own user pages? I don't think this has been banned, and if it hasn't, I'd really like to know why someone tagged an image that was being used [solely] on my user page as an orphaned fair use image for deletion. It would seem, however, that it was a bot that did that, which shows that this, and perhaps other bots, might be malfunctioning. But what's worse is that an Admin deleted the image as a speedy. Maybe we need a general reminder that a speedy tag does not vacate the need to check thoroughly before deleting, especially images, because, well, tags may be misused. That was really regretable, something that really should not have happened — unless, as I said, we are now no longer allowed to upload images that will (or might) not be used in articles (that is, images for the purpose of use in a user's user page). Regards, Redux 15:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, but that seems to confirm what I had said: no [wouldbe] fair use images can be used on user pages if that's the only place where it is being used. That's a tough spot for many users out there. But I've started to review the US fair use laws (I've not completed my review yet, so this is a partial assessment), the use of the image that would be covered by fair use on my user page can very well be considered informative. The image evokes Brazil, and I'm using it to indicate to readers that I am Brazilian, which I do not say in the text. There's no profit to be derived from the situation, which indicates that the sole purpose of using the image was to inform of my condition as a Brazilian. So the question would be: what is informative? Does it relate to the importance of what's being informed? That is, my condition as a Brazilian is of no particular relevance to the reader per se (in that regard, it could be [very roughly!] compared to the contents of a gossip magazine: it's not really important, but people just might want to know about it), as opposed to the contents of an article, which is supposed (at least in theory) to contain relevant information. Now, the purpose of a user page on Wikipedia is to provide some information about the user in question, and informing my nationality, through that image, is perfectly within the boundaries of this purpose. Back when I uploaded it (I'd have to re-check this now), I found the image on multiple websites from Brazil (unrelated), which, thinking retrospectivelly, would indicate that the copyright holder (if the image was not free — hence the tag I had used on the image when I re-uploaded it, and which has already been removed) allowed it's free use throughout the web (noticing that no one was using it "with express permission"). Maybe my understanding of US copyrights provisions still needs some polishing, but it would seem (to me) that the image would be usable under the fair use provision on my user page. Or am I completely off? Regards, Redux 21:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
There are two words which seem central to most issues arising from entries, both new pages and individual edit/additions, these are
I have spent many days searching for some guidance on these concepts within wikipedia. 'Notability' though a bit arcane at times is decipherable. But... "encyclopedic" is a real catch 22. a search for guidance gets redirected to "what wikipedia is not" where there is no mention of the subject. which sort of implies that if something survives long enough to be in wikipedia it is therefore encyclopedic.
I would dearly love to see some guidance on this matter as I'm sure im not alone in experiencing good, well written (by others) passages being deleted because they haven't appealed to somebodies sense of encyclopedic, more often meaning they dont think them important.
I realise that this is probably a very tiresome subject for a lot of old hands - but a policy, or even a single sentence statement would really help to establish a yardstick. rather than a pointer to a page of negatives
there is also a more subtle issue here - where all of the notes on 'notability' make absolute sense in relation to articles, they dont when it comes to a single point of information, say a sentence or even a paragraph. once a subject is clearly notable surely most additional info must be too, provided it is verifiable etc. The same goes for encyclopedic, surely once the main subject is assured of its credentials then it follows that any nested detail will become less major, to eventually end up minor bordering on trivia. Now it is easy to identify a page subject as trivial, but the most momentous subjects are comprised of individual facts that, taken individualy are highly likely to be trivial. For example. the school Albert Einstein went to. His grades, both perhaps trivial seperately, but relevant when you realise that he left school with no qualifications at all.
I hope that this hasn't come across as a rant, one thing wikipedia is teaching me, is to be more diplomatic - but I'm not quite there yet. this is a genuine call for guidance, or better still a pointer to a definition, I have no bones to pick or edit war to win.
and now someone is going to say, "it was there all the time" thanks DavidP 04:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
"Encyclopedic" is like "pornographic": very hard to define, but a lot of people think they know it when they see it. :) Basically, "unencyclopedic" can be considered shorthand for "I believe instinctively that this subject does not belong on Wikipedia: I can't be bothered to look for a specific way it fails WP:NOT, but I hope it does, and if it doesn't then it jolly well should."
Not the answer you're looking for, maybe, but that appears to be how the term is actually used. (It's certainly how I use it.) — Haeleth Talk 21:38, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a fundamental lack of consensus on whether Wikipedia is an encyclopedia as the word is currently understood, or whether Wikipedia is something completely new that redefines the understanding of what an encyclopedia should be. There's a sort of Heisenberg uncertainty principle at work here.
It should be mentioned that the word "encylopedic" outside of Wikipedia generally does not mean "suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia." It means "having the characteristics of an encyclopedia," as in, "He has an encyclopedic memory." That said, I don't know what word would mean "suitable for inclusion," and the use of the word "encyclopedic" to mean that on Wikipedia has probably become too ingrained to stop the practice. -- Mwalcoff 23:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Under US case law (e.g. CCC Information Services v. MacLean Hunter Market Reports, Kregos v. Associated Press, Eckes v. Card Prices Update, Key Publications, Inc. v. Chinatown Today Publishing Enters., Inc.), the courts have consistently held that a list of information whose selection or creation requires editorial creativity is subject to copyright protection. This includes such items as "What are the best places to eat in Denver" or "What are the best statistics to use in judging baseball". If someone creates a "Best of..." or "Most Important..." list based on subjective criteria then the list, when considered in its entirety, is a protected form of expression even if individual elements of that list are facts beyond the scope of copyright.
The effect here is that we should not be republishing such a list in its entirety, as doing so is an infringement on the owner's copyright. (Note that this only applies to lists involving creative judgments, lists based on facts or polling are not subject to copyright protection.)
What about fair use? There are four factors one must consider under the US fair use doctrine:
Because of these issues, I propose that the lists in the articles below be deleted. In some cases, like The 100 there is critical discussion which should be kept, with a greatly abbreviated version of the list that could sustain a fair use claim. In many cases however, someone has merely copied the content of someone else's list onto Wikipedia, and these should probably be deleted in totality. I started to post several of these on WP:CP, and someone complained and asked for a broader discussion, so here it is. Dragons flight 06:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
To quote Dragons flight's own talk page: "No, as I said there, IANAL. I do however work in real life areas where I have to be familiar with and care about intellectual property law. Dragons flight" as such he is NOT A LAWYER and cannot state publically as such with authority... however BD Abramson AN ACTUAL IP LAWYER has stated: "See Feist v. Rural. The formula itself is merely an idea, and is not subject to copyright; only the expression of the idea can be protected, and the listing here does not duplicate the expression because it differs significantly from the layout of the Newsweek list. See Kregos v. Associated Press, 937 F.2d 700 (2d Cir. 1991). I've maintained such a list - indeed one more similar to Newsweek's own - in my user space for quite some time without fear of legal action, because I'm quite confident that this is no copyvio (and even if it was, it would easily qualify as fair use)."
Sorry DF but in this case I can only say mind your business and speak on a subject in which you are A RECOGNIZED AUTHORITY. ALKIVAR ™ 08:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree 100% with User:Dragon's flight. Copyright laws clearly cover the creation of lists that have any creativity in them. What the laws do not cover are simply functional lists, such as phone books and so forth. These list articles, plus Top 1000 Scientists: From the Beginning of Time to 2000 AD which I ran across today and probably several others. clearly violate the law. Furthermore, let's get real here, the vast majority of these are not encyclopedic in the least. Why risk lawsuits over something that doesn't contribute anything of value to this project? DreamGuy 17:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think this is redundant with what has been said above ... Jimbo Wales and the WikiMedia Foundation have weighed in on this in a limited way in the context of "list of articles found in Encyclopedia X that should be in Wikipedia" and the decision has been to remove those lists that can thoughtfully be considered copyright violations. I don't have the links to the discussion threads at my fingertips here but I'm sure that someone will be able to produce those links for general edification here in short order (I'll look for them later if I don't see them here when I have time to do so). Regards, Courtland 19:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been running across a lot of Image red links, and at least some of the time it is because the Image used to exist, but has been deleted for one reason or another (no source, incompatible license terms, etc.). I don't have a problem with them being deleted, but shouldn't the Article links to them get removed at the same time? For example, Charleston, South Carolina currently has a visible File:CharlestonSC.jpg, because the pic was deleted [12] but the link was left ( List of flags also wasn't updated [13]). Why shouldn't incoming Article link removal be part of the standard Image deletion procedure? Waterguy 22:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
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I have recently seen it contended, for the first time in my experience, that being an "expert" on a topic should give someone's opinions additional weight in an AfD. This claim was made here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Able and Baker (2nd nomination). (Note that the outcome of the AfD is irrelevant here; I might end up changing my vote anyway.) The claim was supported with this quote from Jimbo, which I don't read as having anything to do with expertise. Rather, I tend to assume "credibility" and "reputation" refer to having a track record of editing in good faith—which means doing enough research to "vote" in an informed way. I can't see how giving special emphasis to "expert" editors on AfD's makes any more sense than giving them special rights in the article namespace—which, I understand from WP:NOR#The role of expert editors, we don't do.
Obviously, of course, experts will likely be able to cite reputable sources, and sway people to their opinion in AfD's. I am referring only to the contention that the admin closing the debate should give the single "expert" user's opinon extra weight in the debate.
I'd like to hear other views on this, or maybe be referred to previous debates/discussions that shed light on this. It doesn't make sense to me at all, but I could be wrong. -- SCZenz 22:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
One thing that should be mentioned in this discussion is time. When providing an edit to an article, we have an attitude of "eventually." If I, as an expert, am busy, and do not have time to go do research to find a great quote, and it waits for a week or two, no harm is done.
Deletion debates are completely different. They have a five day window, after which it is inordinately difficult to overturn them. Which means that experts are expected to do all necessary citation and sourcing work on a deadline, or else the article will be deleted forevermore. That's not reasonable. If deletion debates are going to have a deadline, we have to also be more permissive in giving people who know what they're talking about preference, citations or no. Snowspinner 19:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm an academic, and perhaps an "expert" in a few areas -- but it's important to remember that university expertise is highly specialized, and professors have a tendency, sometimes, to overstate the breadth of their expertise. Personally, I think that Wikipedia is exciting precisely because it permits the co-production of knowledge by experts and the public. The process can get sloppy, of course, but it's revolutionary. Don't forget that many crucial advances developed outside universities; academic rigor seems, sometimes, to develop into rigor mortis. -- Bryan 16:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
In the past week, I have seen two occasions where an article was tagged with {{AfD}}, then the nominator saw that several users voted to Keep, and then changed his/her mind and removed the AfD tag before the nom has run its course. Is that permitted? In one case I retagged the article, even though I agreed that it needed to be kept, and voted so. -- Rogerd 03:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I am getting conflicting opinions here. Friday is saying that what I saw may be OK. Others are saying it has to be an admin. In both of these cases, there was clear consensus that the article should be kept, including the nominator (who changed his mind). -- Rogerd 21:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Should Don't bite the newbies apply to autists? I am concerned that in two recent cases, one of which is up before the arbitration committee, newcomers exhibiting what appears to be autistic behavior, not obvious vandals and not obvious trolls, have been abused and alienated because other editors did not understand their behavior.
Perhaps Wikipedia needs a policy or guideline to enable Recent changes patrollers, who are often the first to notice new editors, to recognise autistic editing patterns and welcome autists in a more appropriate manner.
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people) Steve block talk 11:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion Steve block talk 11:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved to Wikipedia talk:Please do not bite the newcomers Steve block talk 11:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
This somewhat moribund discusion could use broader community input. Currently has strong focus on webcomics, but this is an area where we could clearly use a guideline re:
WP:MUSIC.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 06:34, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I am somewhat confused about the policies and rights concerning the remote use of Wikipedia content. What I am specifically interested in is whether Wikipedia allows one to dynamically use (or "remote load") articles, or parts of some, on one's own web site.
To give a more concrete (albeit totally hypothetical) example: Say, one has a web site that publishes news related to American and British jazz charts. Now, the website would have a database that includes the different artists and a record of their chart positions. This database would be used to generate individual artist pages so that a visitors could in one view see, for example, how artist X's albums have charted over the years. Yet, it would be nice to have a biographical introduction to the artist as well. The question then is, could one dynamically use, for example, the first paragraph of a related Wikipedia article (which usually gives an overview) on one's own page, of course with the relevant acknowledgements about the source of the content?
The use of Wikipedia material appears to be allowed under the GNU Free Documentation Licence ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us#Copyright_issues). However, remote loading appears to be prohibited ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:FORK#Remote_loading). Yet, I am not totally sure if a "mirror site" in this context also means a web site that remote-loads only a relatively small part of the whole Wikipedia? This is especially unclear to me as Wikipedia in fact offers, even seems to encourage, a way to remote-load data from Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ADownload#Why_not_just_retrieve_data_from_wikipedia.org_at_runtime?).
It then seems that while the use of content is allowed, using it dynamically (i.e. remote-loading it) is not? Does this apply even when the content used is only a very small part of the whole of Wikipedia?
Of course, restricting remote-loading is understandable considering the potential extra traffic generated for Wikipedia servers (especially web crawlers are mentioned in the "Remote Loading" text quoted above). However, if this is the only reason why remote-loading is prohibited, would the following then be allowed: Instead of loading the page content from Wikipedia every time a user visits one's website, the content would be loaded from a mirror-like file on one's own web site. This file, then, would be kept relatively up-to-date by rewriting it once a week or so by remote-loading the Wikipedia article. This would not generate more than one extra hit per week per article and would hence probably not significantly strain the Wikipedia servers.
I wonder what the views on all of this are?
-- Vili 11:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Are Arbitration decisions enforced? In Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Climate change dispute#Remedies are several remedies, but the corresponding Enforcement section does not list any actions. Was nobody banned, and no actions taken? ( SEWilco 07:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC))
On the Jehovah's Witnesses-related pages, there are regular arguments over exactly what JWs believe. Each party provides long lists of quotes on the talk page, which soon get archived and forgotten.
The Wikipedia:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses is working on redoing the pages to include references for all claims about their beliefs, but there are often claims of out-of-context quoting and contradictory references. (JW publications often do this.) Nearly every statement will need a reference as these are highly disputed pages, and this will lead to a very large references section.
It would save a lot of time and space if a subpage could be used to quote the references and their contexts. I know subpages aren't used for this normally, but I think this would be a useful exception. -- K. AKA Konrad West TALK 02:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
After User:Silsor removed the entry on ITN about "President George W. Bush nominates Samuel A. Alito, Jr to the United States Supreme Court". [1], we both got into a discussion about the quote on Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page that says "It should be a story of an international importance, or at least interest."
My question: is there any sort of good way one can determine if a news story qualifies for that criteria so one can add it to ITN, or remove an entry if it does not fit? Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi I'm passing on a request from the Talk:John Prescott page. Is there anywhere on WP to post image requests? as the above page, & a few others, need pictures. Thanks AllanHainey 13:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
It is really disturbing. Again and again yankee treat en(glish-language).wikipedia.org as US.wikipedia.org and remove anything that does not fit the lone gunman republican worldwiew. Especially sociology and related is impossible to improve, because social rights, egalitarian society and similar issues are always erased by american and blairist british vandals. Articles are maliciously misrepresented, e.g. editors make sure "social democracy" always appears described as an evil ideology fellow travelling with communism, when in fact it is a form of capitalist governance, which brought great prosperity and universal happiness with high quality of life for swveral european countries.
In general anything that does not appeal to money counting honest yankee is POV and gets deleted. European (rest-of-the-world) brains are so differently programmed from US brains that there can be no common experience or understanding between the two races, the anglo-saxon and l'homme. American way of thinking is very mechanical and legalistic (e.g. weapons ban in schools not OK due to interstate commerce) and always remains impossible to understand for europeans, who think what a jungle it must be where kids bring guns to schools! Americans always view themselves with the society as something useless or possibly evil, which they should tweak and exploit to serve their individual interests, while europeans think one's search for happiness can only be successful if it doesn't hurt but rather contribute to the common good. It looks like americans are first and foremost their own self-gods, who prey on whatever life offers them.
This is a recurring experience and repels many non-US people from contributing to the current en.wikipedia.org. I am sorry to say, but the solution to this problem is to make en.wikipedia.org split and create separete en-us.wikipedia.org and en-rest-of-the-world.wikipedia.org. Currently US based editors have numerical superiorty and are always vigilant to revert any of your un-eagle-ish additions, so what remains is a dubya-approved lecture book meant for the sunday school, rather than an encyclopedia. I may not stay here for long if this frustration remains. 213.178.102.147 14:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
User:213.178.102.147, you might like to look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias and the talk page with that article. Philip Baird Shearer 16:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the judges aren't always consistent... they ruled that the federal government could ban medical marijuana nationwide, even where it applies to pot being grown by an individual for his own consumption, entirely within a state that legalized it, because that could have a tenuous effect on interstate commerce. This one cited a 1940s decision that similarly let the feds regulate farmers growing grain to feed to their own animals. So I wish they would apply the principles of federalism in a consistently legalistic manner. *Dan T.* 17:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Say there is an article title, and
What should the article contain?
This concerns talk:Ten Commandments, but my question is asking what the general principle is in Wikipedia when this sort of issue arises? --francis 21:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
As this discussion pertains to Ten Commandments, I suggest remaining answers are collated there. JFW | T@lk 21:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I'm not a fan of the infobox. I've been creating articles on cities, the ones that were put up automatically in late 2002. The majority of them are the same as when they were first uploaded, but about one in four have some different info as well and I write that in manually. However! I'm not a fan of the infobox at all. I don't see it saving time anywhere, as you still have to write in each section as you would in a basic table, and moreover a lot of them are way too complex.
Check this out: this monster of an infobox (for me). What is this if defined call 1 business? If a web page exists, call 1 and then it gets added? This is way too complex for Wikipedia. Why not just add an extra line to a table if you need it? I keep all the tables from the original article if I can see the code and simply cut and paste it over, but not this. Plus, I heard that our Wikipedia ( Ido) doesn't even have some of the software needed for some of the functions - that's what I was told when I asked a question on the helpdesk. Does anyone agree that this is too complex? I don't see an infobox saving anyone any time, least of all me. Unless I am missing something really obvious that would fix everything and make the infobox a marvel of simplicity, but somehow I doubt it. mithridates
Well thank you for that, but that's exactly the point. People have been going willy-nilly about the talk page discussing how it works when in my opinion we should just have a source code that can be cut and pasted. Don't forget that there seem to be a few dozen people working on that one infobox, but most languages don't have that luxury. I'm sure I'll cave in a bit and make a box for us that works but I love it when the source code is right on the page and I only have to change the language itself. Mithridates 08:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I proposed a change to Wikipedia:No Original Research to deal with photos taken and uploaded by Wikipedia editors. See the talk page section here. The gist is: It's OK and doesn't count as unallowed original research, since photos are generally illustrative and do not propose ideas. Thanks - Tempshill 19:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks#Proposed_edit_of_remedies_re_removal. -- SCZenz 17:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
We've encountered some unusual issues in regards to image use and the GFDL on Talk:Burning Man. The Burning Man event requires that all attendees agree not to use images they take at the event for commercial purposes.
We are attempting to obtain permission from the Burning Man organization to use some pictures on the page, but they are leery of releasing images under the GFDL. Even reporters and other members of the media, who are given special permission to make commercial use of images they take, must agree to very restrictive uses of those images which are probably incompatible with the GFDL. The discussion is two fold: is there a way to get the BMorg to agree to our use of the images, and if they do not agree what do we do? This is an unusual issue with which I am having some difficulty applying our image policies and may not be an area which has come up in exactly this way before.
Background on the discussion can be found at Talk:Burning Man#Images of/at Burning_Man and Talk:Burning Man#Letter to Bman's Media Team. The most recent updates and ongoing discussion can be found in Talk:Burning Man#Dialogue w/ Burning Man Media Team 2.
Comments from those more experienced in these issues appreciated on that page. Kit 01:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, just to clarify: the images are owned by the original copyright holder who took them while attending the Burning Man event; however, attendees technically agreed to not release photos for commercial use without permission of the Burning Man organization's media team. The biggest question is, are we (that is Wikipedia, as I won't be submitting my own images in violation of this) or should we be bound by this restriction?
IMHO I would like to see us abide by the restriction because it shows Wikipedia is a good citizen, but I recognize it might set a very bad precedent.
The second, smaller question is, is it fair to represent the GFDL as potentially protecting against use of images taken at Burning Man in corporate advertisements? This seems to be the major concern of the Burning Man media team, but in my reading of the GFDL if, for example, Coca-Cola were to use an image of Burning Man which had been placed into the GFDL in one of their commercials, they would also have to release the commercial itself into the GFDL. In addition, my understanding is Coca-Cola would also have to somehow either include the entire text of the GFDL in their ads or link to Wikipedia's copy of the GFDL in their ad? Kit 07:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I am the copyright holder of one of the images in question; Image:Neonman.jpg, which had been released under the GFDL. Can I now revoke that somehow and retro-license it under, say, FairUseAndPermission or somesuch? - Ali-oops ✍ 08:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
People with such photographs might want to consider licensing them with {{ Limited Use}}. This permits reuse, including for commercial purposes, but only in connection with a proper encyclopedic article about the subject or in which the subject is referenced. There is also {{ Limited Use-person}} for pictures of individual people. That might avoid the problems that the Burning Man agreement was intended to deal with. Whether this would adaquetely protect such a photographer is a legal question, and IANAL, and i haven't even seen the text of the Burning Man photo agreement so i have no useful opnion. DES (talk) 15:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Images and video which are reproductions of an event or performance (especially one occurring on private property) are considered to be derivative works of that performance and hence require the copyright permission of the performers. Examples of this that are often defended are movies and sporting events. I can not just go into a movie theater, video tape the movie, and resell it. That is a clear violation of production company's copyright. Similarly, I can't take photos or video at a sporting event (e.g. a football game) and then go distribute those without the express permission of the authority managing the event (e.g. the NFL). The same rules apply to performance art (especially on private property) though an artist defending their rights in that case is more uncommon.
As a matter of law, if we knowingly allow to be violated the copyright of a third party, then the contributory infringement clause of US copyright law can apply. Which is to say that even though we are not parties to the agreement, if we redistribute content under terms we know to be invalid, then we could be culpable as well.
There are some gray areas here. For example, the copyright would nominally vest in the performers, and without some statement of assignment, it is not obvious that the Burning Man Group has the authority to dictate terms of use. (Maybe such an agreement is part of the permission to attend the event?) So, I would not be sure that Burning Man would win the legal dispute; however, for us there is a simpler solution that avoids the potential problem. In the context, there are very good grounds for fair use and since the only thing we are worried about is the non-commercial clause, no one would have to violate the terms of their agreement if we argue that fair use is our rationale for inclusion. Dragons flight 15:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Do you think images taken at Burning Man dealing with the event or related topics would qualify as fair use? Kit 19:57, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Plenty of major commercial publications have run pictures of Burning Man in articles about the event. How do they get around this? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Their photographers got permissioin from the Burning Man media team, who object to the images being entered into the GFDL because of the unlimited commercial use clause. i.e., if a picture appeared in Time Magazine the photographer got permission to publish the photos in that magazine, but agreed not to publish it elsewhere such as a stock photography service. The media team is concerned/objects to the way they would no longer control the future uses of images posted to Wikipedia, and how it could, they fear, eventually end up in an advertisement as a consequence. Kit 03:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
In response to Jimbo's intervention, I've offered a proposal regarding the Arbitration Committee elections, which would affect how the arbitration system works generally. Please direct comments to the linked page. -- Michael Snow 04:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
I've been patrolling images the last few days and noticed a few instances of people uploading .pdf files. Image:Turinys.pdf is an example from today. What is the intention of letting people do this? It won't show up as an image in our pages. (And, probably beside the point, it's not really a free format.) Tempshill 22:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Listed on IFD. ~~ N ( t/ c) 02:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The traditional and valuable underlining of lks w/in WP (& i presume into sister-projects) has been coming and going, as if someone is working on that code & testing it live. Hopefully that is not proposed as a new standard. If someone prefers it, then it should become a Prefs choice: lks are the lifeblood of WP, and making them less visible is bad not only immediately for users but also for WP in the long run. (I hate to think what the 5-10% of color blind users would do; the blue-vs.-black contrast is low enough for my normal vision.)
--
Jerzy•
t 19:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Why this pic haven't be deleted ? What are you doing here ? Do you know other projects needs to copy your pics ? We need trust your content, please do something. I don't understand what kind of policy you do. I know other projects needs you to be more grave. Petrusbarbygere 02:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Since the image doesn't meet any of the criteria at WP:CSD, it will have to wait 5 days before it can be removed, given that there are no objections to it's removal at WP:IFD. - Greg Asche (talk) 21:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I've taken off the IFD tag, as I see no reason it should be deleted, and no such reasoning was ever added to the IFD page. ~~ N ( t/ c) 20:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
In the context of an article about Katherine Hepburn, the picture surely qualifies for fair use. Wikipedia is in no trouble here. However, if you copy it and distribute it, you are in the wrong, unless you also have some claim to fair use. To see an image's licensing status, click on the image and read the image's license from the page that opens. Pedant 17:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Please review Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Crown copyright, a discussion of how Crown Copyright relates to fair use (created by Bearcat). Superm401 | Talk 03:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed that there artciles on larger companies such as "Rolex", "Breitling", etc.
I would like to write a small article about my company, which is not such a huge company. I know the policy states that this is not a place to advertise businesses, and that would not be my sole purpose.
I am wondering what differentiates articles on companies such as Rolex from the type of article I am proposing to write?
Wouldn't it be fair to say that if an article is allowed about 1 company that it should be allowed for all?
I appreciate your support.
"I would like to write a small article about my company, which is not such a huge company."
to avoid problems, I would wait until someone else writes about your company, otherwise it may easily be construed as vanity or advertisement. Also, as you say, it's a small company. Is there some notability which would make it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia? Is the information about your company available elsewhere or is it your own original research? Original research, vanity articles and articles that are {or might be reasonably assumed to be) advertisement are generally not allowed by Wikipedia custom and policy. Pedant 17:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I recently created an image tagging template, template:userpage-image, for images used on userpages. The template specifies that the images are not "free", in that they may not be used outside userpage space, as fx I want the privacy of deciding who can use my image of myself.
I though this was the obvious way to go, as it seems perfectly reasonable to me. It doesn't matter to Wikipedia's goal of building a free encyclopedia that the images are non-free, as long as they are only used on userspace pages. It is also my impression that I was simply writing down existing practice.
Now template:userpage-image as been put on templates for deletion, and the userpage images which used it has been listed on IFD as non-GFDL images. If this goes through it seems to establish policy that all images in the future must be GFDL. Surprisingly, the consensus so far seems to be delete, though as far as I can see no arguments with merit has been put forth for deletion. So I am asking that people take a look, and hopefully vote keep :). Thue | talk 00:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I received a message stating to me that images I uploaded (as the author) can not be tagged with a copyright by the Wikipedia Foundation. One particular image titled "Le Marche.JPG" seem to create a problem (see Ariele's talk page for further details). Can someone explain? Ariele 12:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I am interested in reusing some of Wikipedia's math articles, after modifications, as narrative transcripts for commercial multimedia software products. If a "transparent" copy of the modified narrative transcript document is provided under the GFDL and all compliances are fulfilled (authorship attribution, an transparent original document is provided, etc.), does the rest of the multimedia software product (artwork, recorded narration, music, programming code) fall under "individual works" and thus able to be licensed commercially? Or does it all fall under "derivative works"?
Here is a question for fellow Wikipedians. I recently had an editing dispute with another editor. In order to resolve the editing dispute, the editor in question set up a poll (so far so good). Then he turns around and cuts and pastes to the pages of a number of different editors a request to edit in this poll; editors he feels will support him. Is this ethical? Is this something a good Wikipedia editor will do to resolve an edit conflict? I feel that he is trying to stack the vote; however "getting the vote out" is a long-standing tradition (this is how the religious conservatives can get people to support Intelligent design on school boards, since normally no one votes for who should be on a school board). Thoughts? Samboy 07:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Is there a policy on having a list that is identical to a category? There is a list List of Western Australian towns which has the same meaning (but much less content) than the Category:Towns in Western Australia. My first thought was the list could just be replaced with a redirect to the category and the links fixed, but on further thought the list is simpler to link to in the manner used (in this case) from Western Australia. So it might be better to have both and update the list. Sorry if this is an FAQ, I did look around a bit first. IanBailey 04:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a new language policy proposal at Wikipedia:Language policy. Dass 11:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a new policy proposal at Wikipedia:Hypothetical_Future_Concensus. the1physicist 15:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I have moved comments to the policy's talk page so that any discussion will not be fragmented. the1physicist 20:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I've found uses of this phrase in articles as an attempt to give a reference to a particular period in time, sometimes when the subject matter is mentioned in the Bible, [2] sometimes when it's far removed. [3] Not only is the term hopelessly imprecise (even fundamentalist Christians believe this ranges from 4004 BC to shortly after 33 AD), but it also imposes a sectarian view on history and events to classify them by their coincidence with a period described in one holy book (and as it is named by one religion...it's never "Torah times," mind you), and I think it does this in a clear way that "BC" and "AD" do not (so let's not beat that dead horse). Google shows 192 uses of the phrase on Wikipedia, [4] some of which may be valid in context (though the imprecision will likely still be a problem), others not. Other than replacing it with "a few thousand years ago," I don't know what else to do with it, so I just wanted to bring attention to the issue so that more knowledgeable people on these subjects can make the specific corrections needed. Postdlf 00:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I am interested in reusing some of Wikipedia's math articles, after modifications, as narrative transcripts for commercial multimedia software products. If a "transparent" copy of the modified narrative transcript document is provided under the GFDL and all compliances are fulfilled (authorship attribution, an transparent original document is provided, etc.), does the rest of the multimedia software product (artwork, recorded narration, music, programming code) fall under "individual works" and thus able to be licensed commercially? Or does it all fall under "derivative works"?
Is there a Wikipedia policy on whether previews are licensed under the GFDL? I don't think it should ever be an issue, but I was curious. Taken very literally, the text below the editing box, "All edits are released under the GFDL", would imply so? What do people think? Superm401 | Talk 21:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I think that photos, which are intended to make a specific point, should not be uploaded to Wikipedia unless they have been previously published by a disinterested, reputable 3rd party.
Flikr.com, weblogs, partisan political web sites (dailykos, freerepublic, etc) and such are not acceptable, but commercial news organizations and commericial publishers and to a lesser extent, non-profits would be ok. There is simply too much opportunity out there to stage photos, for example:
Supporters of Candidate A take Candidate B's signs and make a big mess in a parking lot with them and leave also a lot of trash like water bottles and sandwich wrappers.... the Wiki caption for this reads, "trash left behind after local rally for B".
Clearly it's a staged photo intended to make a point. If the control parameter of "intended to make a point" is not enforced, the excuse regarding the above scenario would be "I found the trash & signs in the parking lot and merely snapped the photo". Such assertions could not be disproved, opening a pandora's box of scheming opporunities.
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 06:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
One does not need to "define intent". Rather one only needs to make clear that a photo can be not will be, but can be deemed an NOR violation if it's obvious the intent is to "make a specific point", see my hypothetical example (above) or this actual photo, which caused an actual edit dispute at John Kerry and which was a personally produced, primary source created by the Wikipedian who uploaded it.
You wouldn't deny that this particular photo is "intended to make a point" would you?
Here is another hypothetical: Around where I live, there are many Mennonite families, all of which (that I know of) have "Bible verse" signs in front of their homes. A safe photo to show as an example of one of those would be when there is a non-confrontational verse such as "Honor your father and your mother" (10 commandments, #5) displayed. However, a photo of a Mennonite family sign with the verse saying "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16) might not be. Or what about "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father except by means of me" (John.14:6)? This would clearly be "intended to make a point" and a very controversial one at that!
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 07:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
It's true that only when they are put into articles can they be objected to (on any basis). Even so, a photo with an explicit text or other loaded message which is intended to make a specific point and which was created by the Wikipedian who uploaded it, certainly is fraught with risk (see above). If the NOR policy is not made more expansive to address this point, more finagling can sneak in (see above). Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
You miss the point, if loaded photos such as that are allowed to get uploaded/used by Wikipedians who create them, then an arms race of loaded photos can start. Poltical related pages are contentious enough without letting sneaky editors cheat to get biased/loaded/POV photos -which they created- into the articles. Read Talk:John Kerry and also the edit history for John Kerry to see how that photo was actually defended! Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't want problem images (of the type I refer to above) deleted. Rather, I want a clear NOR basis for objecting to them in articles. Rex071404 216.153.214.94 09:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Your example with "stained glass" has no text on a sign, which is part and parcel of my concern. As for John 14:6, there are many editors on this wiki who 100% reject that message and would be offended at it. Original research photographs must be innocuous and one which did this (see next), would not be:
Allowing editors to argue viewpoints via the proof of photos which they themselves supply, is indeed unacceptable.
Rex071404 216.153.214.94 13:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
What about the example of the staged candidate A & B? Rex071404 216.153.214.94 22:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
After reading this on UninvitedCompany's user talk,
I came up with an idea. At least in my case (probably others too), a lot of the pictures I want to put up are mainly for my user page, or to show others something that I need help identifying. The ones I would put on my user page are the ones that I would most want to have NC or ND clauses, so the obvious answer is to allow such clauses, but only allow those pictures to be displayed on user pages. Can I get some feedback on this idea? CanadaGirl 02:43, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Is you advice to request a relicense to GFDL of any pictures uploaded "By Permission" (like Comet picture) from the copyright owner? I had used an old "standard form" email to ask for this permission, and now it seems this is no longer "allowed". Or might it be enough to dig out the email exchange with the owner? Awolf002 14:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Cute and irreverent was workable when wikipedia was smaller, but now Wikipedia:Ignore all rules and "Wikipedia is not a beaurocracy" must go. These have created a gunslinger and territorial attitude among the admins, too many think they know better than the rules. Rules are not the enemy. Rules are a means to make the process appear open and fair. They are there for all to see. wikipedia is doing itself a disservice if it doesn't take advantage of the power of a rules based process, and a further disservice, if it pretends to have a rules based process and then thoroughly ignores it. The perception of unfairness and arbitraryness is already prevalent and increasing in the user community. Admin discretion should be reduced and more clearly defined, and abuses quikly addressed and not tolerated out of deference. We don't need a lot more rules, in fact, ideally we would seek some minimal, workable set. But we need a lot less discretion, and a lot more openness and tranparency. The rules should be viewed as protection by the admin community. They don't have to be viewed as unfair, or the enemy if they just follow the rules and are subject to the rules themselves. Because Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is so cute and irreverent and so many people will remain nostaligic about it, perhaps it should not be deleted, but instead move into wikipedia's historical gallery.-- Silverback 23:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The actual problem is that people are making up pages willy nilly, and then stamping "these iz da rulez" (yes, including bad spelling at times!) on those pages, for no sane reason that I can discern (well, except to make themselves feel important, or perhaps to win at wiki nomic! ;-) ) . Most of the actual wiki rules are enforced by software. This is something a lot of people can't quite wrap their heads around. Hence the proliferation of yet even more "rules" pages. All the while, the actual rules are quite different. :-/
I agree that this situation isn't entirely optimal. I'm sort of seeking some round tuits to work it out, it's a big job!
In the mean time, if you pretend that the wikipedia rules are " ignore all rules (as long as you're writing an encyclopedia)", " don't be a dick (instead be nice)" and " Always present a neutral point of view", you probably won't get into too much trouble. More detailed guidelines on how to stay out of trouble can be found at Wikipedia:Simplified ruleset.
If you DO get in trouble , even when following the latter set of guidelines, please contact me immediately, so I can sort out what's going on.
Kim Bruning 23:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I am getting this error today only. Not able to do tests in sand box. Why? How to do test edit now please?? VERY URGENT.
This page is protected and can only be edited by administrators
-- Dore chakravarty 20:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed most articles where a screenshots of a webpage is used usually show the user's full screen including the browser window and any taskbars, showing what apps the user taking the screenshot is running. I suspect a lot of people think uploading screenshots is a chance to show off the themes and apps they may be running. I don't think these things are ever relevant to the subject and I think it should be policy that before uploading a screenshot of a webpage the user edits the image so only the webpage is visible.
Examples:
[6] [7] - This is on the Gmail page and even mentions the browser and OS used, how is this relevant?
Ratify 17:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Guidelines or policy? -- Steve block talk 11:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
See: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Zondor's template -- Francis Schonken 08:38, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
On Wikipedia talk: User page#Personal attacks on Wikipedia pages I have brought up a question: should personal attacks or lists of "bad" users be allowed on User pages? Kit 05:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
But should there be a specific acknowledgement of this on Wikipedia:User page?
The Main categories of Wikipedia (which are in the Template:Eight portals links on the main page) as well as many major Categories such as Category:Philosophy have a layout similar to that of Portals and are reader-oriented. The namespace "Portals" was created recently and is meant exactly for that kind of cases: The "Portal" part of those categories should be made actual Portals on the appropriate namespace.
I think it should now be made a policy (or at least a guideline) that Categories stay categories (pretty much like disambiguation pages should have no other material than the links to the things it disambiguates to) and the Portal material be moved to an appropriate Portal page on the good namespace.
On second thoughts, I'm putting this discussion in Wikipedia talk:Wikiportal, but I thought I'd leave this here as a notice for potentially interested people. Jules LT 00:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Is it possible to program mediawiki to display thumbnails based upon the current resolution of the display they are being displayed upon? I often see edit-wars of people changing the "px"'s of images, and I think the ideal solution of for it to be dependant on the size of the browser window/resolution instead. -- Rebroad 10:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what progress has been made towards establishing a notion of "expert" user, but I have a more limited suggestion:
Articles covering scientific topics should be expected to conform to a reasonably high level of accuracy, which is well above the abilities of most wikipedia admins to adjudicate. We could have a "science" tag which granted page-local admin powers to "science admins", and revoked the page-local admin powers of ordinary admins. Of course, any admin or science admin, or even any user, could add or remove the science tag itself, but its serves as an objective "territory marker". One could even imagine asking the various organizations like the National Academy of Science or the Royal Society for a "confidence vote" in the current wikipedia leaderships ability to appoint the science admins, if wikipedia ever got a noconfidence vote, it would need to reevaluate its choices, but it would generally be a nice source of validation to the whole project.
More generally, we could consider moving to a system where no one has both the power to lock a page, and the power to ban a user. Admins would have the power to block users, and preform other sensitive actions which were non-page-local, but they would not have special page-local powers, like the ability to lock specific pages. Instead this power would be granted only to "expert users" in specific categories. Admins & expert users would take requests from each other seriously, but seperating the powers would improve oversight of discussions where there is a need for real knowedge. Of course, you would probably leave the admins page-local powers over pages which didn't fall into any category with expert users (like pages about internet phenomenon).
We should also have a cleaner system for claiming a qualification, such as a PhD studentship, having a PhD, Full Professorship, Medical Doctorate, Law degree, Judgeship, CEO of a Corperation, etc. I'd envision one page describing the wiki text needed to embed the fancy form of such qualifications, plus a category of admins capable of adjudicating claims about them, if it ever comes up.
Thoughts? - Jeff 134.214.102.33 09:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Its, in principle, a great idea to divide the diffrent admin powers among multiple groups. Its just true that people have diffrent interests. Many admin incited problems are the result of admins drifting away from their core interests. However, your suggestion might make some necissary admin solutions "less elegant". Specifically, you don't seem to want to allow your "science admins" to ban people from editing science pages, so are they just supposed to lock the whole page to stop all conflicts?
Maybe one should just try the following: adminship should come with an area of expertise, and admin status will be revoked for using them outside of that area. The explination box for admin actions could have a dropdown listing the "category" into which the action fell. Admins would be required to honestly report the "category" of the effected pages. If they were not considered an expert in that area, then the action would be queued for one who was an expert to approve.
Please check out the new guideline Wikipedia:POV fork. -- Ben 05:39, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
There are two centralized discussions being held on whether specific sport results, such as cricket matches, should belong on Wikipedia. For sport results in general, please see: Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Sports results. Currently, a large number of cricket match articles have been nominated for deletion. That discussion is being held here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cricket matches articles. -- AllyUnion (talk) 05:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of results of the England national rugby league team. User:Zoe| (talk) 05:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The see also blurb at the beginning of the article says other views on the age of the earth are "non-scientific". While that is true, User:Ergbert would like to see it removed, and it got me thinking perhaps at least within the context redirecting to another article should be sympathetic to the article its sending the reader to. Besides Age of the Earth makes clear what view is held by science. Just wondering if this is a good or bad philosophy for redirecting readers. Feedback on general sympathetic tone of redirects welcome here, but I'd prefer views on the Age of the Earth issue to go on its talk page. Thanks. - Roy Boy 800 21:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I have initiated an RfC based on a recent incident, about the administrator culture of abuse [8]. I also address there objection to the mocking use of m:The wrong version. Please assist me in making this RfC production.-- Silverback 07:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I propose a policy where there is a separate section on the pages where violations are reported, to report violations by admins whether they involve use of admin or just user powers (such as a 3RR violation). The policy shall be that these admin violations are handled first, requiring a higher and less forgiving adherance to the standards than mere user violations. The only admin enforcement which takes higher priority than processing violations by admins would be ongoing vandalism.-- Silverback 03:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
What do we do for pages or images that we think (a hunch) may be copyvios but we don't have a good reason to so believe? Equally what about images where the copyright statement seems incomplete or wrong? Eg Image:Unis.jpg which has {{{1}}} in the box and "it is use for non-comercial purposes at the Wikipedia site." outside the box. ?? SGBailey 12:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
When I split text off from an article onto a separate page, how do I preserve the edit history in a way that meets GFDL requirements? The answer I was given on the Help Desk said to ignore the license requirements and just write "text copied from Foo article" on the edit summary. But that sounds dubious, and I wanted to check with people before I added that information to Wikipedia:How to rename (move) a page or Wikipedia:How to break up a page. -- Creidieki 21:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
There isn't really a way (AFAIK) to split specific edits off like that. Just add the notice saying you copied the text. - Greg Asche (talk) 21:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I suggest adoption of a standard that all template parameter names be lowercase. See Wikipedia_talk:Template namespace#Standard for lowercase parameter_names. ( SEWilco 16:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC))
The nomination of Gallery of Socialist Realism for deletion ( AfD) has lead me to propose changing the policy that WP:NOT an image gallery as it relates to galleries of art and similar topics. Please comment on the proposal at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Proposal to modify WP:NOT an image gallery. Dsmdgold 05:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The Christian Classics Ethereal Library exists as high quality resource for learning about many topics to do with Christianity. It describes itself as "Classic Christian books in electronic format". I am not affiliated with them, however I would like to ask whether we could add links to various authors found in the following list. Would anyone have any concerns? It would strictly go into either the "Further reading" section, or into the "External links" section. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
In adition to the current policy on article naming for biographical articles, it would be very usefull if we had some good guidelines on how to handle the correct forms of address. A quick reference for people to know what honorifics and Post-nominal letters are, and how they should be handled within an article. And how to handle cases where claims to these are disputed or unclear, which often causes edit wars.
Debrett's provide a usefull online guide [9] that might be used as an external reference. -- John R. Barberio talk, contribs 05:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
i added an RfC asking for feedback/input on the proposed Guidelines for the layout of Bibliographies, Filmographies, and Discographies at this page: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (lists of works)#Basic information, and ordering thereof. The principle question: In what order should basic list item info be put (title, year, isbn, notes), and with or without brackets for years/isbns? Here are some examples (Only 1 response in a week, so duplicating the request here.) -- Quiddity 03:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm hoping to propose the pure wiki deletion system as a new deletion policy, but first want to get as much feedback as possible in order to consider any objections. The official discussion of deletion reform has been ongoing for three months, and pure-wiki deletion seems to have garnered the most support. Please check out the project page and post any comments on the talk page. — Jwanders Talk 21:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
While there have been an informal poll about the desired language order of multilingual lists, with the result of an alphabetical order based on two letter code, no policies have been set up. Why? There should be a consensus on that idea. CG 12:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
How are the names under which these languages are displayed in the list determined? We don't have "nynorsk språk", "Deutsche Sprache", "English language", or "La langue française". So why in the world do we have "Bahasa Indonesia" and "Bahasa Melayu" using the local equivalent of "language" in those names? Gene Nygaard 13:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
As many editors have noted elsewhere, sorting by two-letter code is easiest and least prone to both human and machine error. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 14:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
This bot has been used by its owner Bluemoose ( talk · contribs) to move this template under the References heading. I disagree with this action, for a number of reasons:
Is there concensus for Bluebot's actions? (I have also raised this on the 1911 template talk page and on Wikipedia talk:Bots. Noisy | Talk 10:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Is see user Pcb21 is making many new pages with titles like February 27, 2003. He is breaking up the February 2003 articles. Is this current policy? -- SGBailey 17:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia: Working the system was added by a user, User:NPOVenforcer who was recently blocked. I believe this new "policy" proposal does not add any helpful information and merely muddies the water about how things work here at Wikipedia. In particular, the first entry: stating wikipedia policy (typically NPOV, civility, or assume good faith) to a person that has not violated it, so as to falsely portray the party that is addressed as having violated the policy
suggests that even bringing up policy to a user and asking them to read it might violate Wikipedia policy. If you look at User talk:NPOVenforcer, you will see that the blocked user who wrote this document used this rationale to react with extreme hostility to even polite suggestions that he familiarize himself with WP:NPA, WP:Civility, etc. Given that we already merged Wikipedia:Gaming the system, I think this document should face a similar fate. Kit 20:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Looking for second (or third or whatever) opinion here regarding some external links I came across recently.
Someone (currently using IP User:4.240.213.29), has been adding external links from author pages to audiobooks of the author's works. The first attempts (by IP 4.240.213.43 ( talk · contribs) simply added the same generic link to a dozen pages -- which I reverted -- while the newest batch has taken the time to actually make them to individual works. They still bother me, though:
Pros
Cons
...making clear to me that self-promotion is part of the purpose here.
(For an example, see this.)
Am I overreacting? Does anyone else think of these as borderline linkspam?
-- Calton | Talk 06:42, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I FOUND YOU! BECAUSE I TRY (a response from "the culprit") Thanks for the benefit of the doubt guys, in the last three days I've made tremendous effort (re-writing 100 pages) at LiteralSystems site to work better as a contributing source of knowlege and experience in literary works suitable for inclusion on sites such as wikipedia. On seeing my first (albeit newbyesque) attempts at adding relevant links to wikipedia author pages removed without explanation I emailed helpdesk-l@wikimedia.org to find out why (quoted here)
##begin##
Hi, I've added external links to about 15 authors biography pages but next day they were all removed. Perhaps, there is something I need to understand.
We at LiteralSystems.com make audiobooks released strictly under Creative Commons licensing. There is never a charge and we create quality human voiced readings from public domain literature. Is there any reason why we could not add relevant external links to the authors-bio pages?
let me know please, Warren Smith literalsystems.com
##end##
I never recieved a response. I re-added the links thinking somebody unathoritive removed them since I heard nothing from wikipedia. I used other external links as examples.
Through my own hard research I found this page featuring the subject of my adding links, I'll stay possitive about all this "sleuthing" of motivational design etc.. done by the page watchdogs at wikipedia but a simple return contact or establishing a query to me would have been better and more to the point. But here is quoted a response more in keeping with reality.
##start##
##end##
Sure, I classify as both. But here is an example of overenthusiasm on another editors part as well.
##start##
##end##
If a person looked at my return visit changes they would see evidence of maintenance on my part to add a deeper level of relevancy to the links (besides fixing mistakes). At literalsystems.com we create new and valuable resources released strictly under Creative Commons, and we care about our work. We don't sell anything and don't carry advertisements. If there are any legitimate self promotion issues here regarding our adding links, then it would have to be the fact that we are proud of what we do and want to share it. Any group that claims an interest in creation of real and valued resources freely accessible on the net should recognize others with similar mind sets. That's what I thought I was doing by linking between us.
The problem with hardened mindsets is that their responses take on the simplicity of those who'd rather not know any more than what they already suspect. Moving on. Here is my email contact ([email removed - see page history]).
Thanks for the response (and especially trimming my email) from all. Okay you're not the hardened reactionaries I took you for at first. ;-) Anyway, I've responded to Mr. Gray's email and won't press the issue any further (or bumble around the site anymore) if it is agreed that my links didn't hold any relevance to the author articles at wikipedia. I did take the time to read the articles suggested here and added my logon identity. I feel I have a better conception now of the way things work here. Frankly it's too easy to just come in and make changes, but I am not saying a policy change is needed, no. -- Literalsystems 22:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
How is fair use of images compatible with the GDFL? We've been having discussions regarding fair use of images on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Image problems, because, with comics being a visual medium, a greater proportion of images tend to be used under the fair use banner. However, it has been brought to my attention that fair use may not be compatible with someone using Wikipedia content under the GDFL for commercial use. The thrust is that we are only allowed touse images under fair use such that any subsequent use is also fair use. If this reading is correct, it seems to me to follow that fair use is incompatible with the GDFL, since we do not know how our content is going to be used by any subsequent person or organisation, and there is no conceivable use of fair use that can not be invalidated if used incorrectly. I believe that if this argument is incorrect, that we are allowed to use fair use and that it behooves the subsequent users of Wiki-content to check their usage allows for the fair use of images, then GNU Free Documentation License#Materials for which commercial redistribution is prohibited should be tightened to make this clear, as I was advised that this does not clarify the situation.
It has also been argued, and again I feel wrongly, that Wikipedia can not claim critical usage under the fair use allowances. I believe that Wikipedia articles are a critical evaluation of a subject, and therefore we are allowed to make such fair use claims. Steve block talk 13:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
The "Be Bold" guideline was recently revised, and virtually gutted, without notice or discussion. This shows the relevant change. [ [10]] Wikipedia standards/practices call for prior notice, discussion, and consensus before a material revision in guidelines, and that wasn't done here. There is now an ongoing editing dispute -- the fourth or fifth this year, I believe -- involving the usual suspects, including myself. To complicate matters, there was admin intervention today, on the apparent basis that a perceived 2-1 division on involved editors was sufficient to justify the guideline change, even without the notice/discussion called for by guidelines and conducted in previous disputes. The guideline page is now inconsistent, with later sections pretty much contradicting the revised introduction. In previous disputes, editor sentiment as expressed in discussion was substantially against changes of this nature; most recently, in September, a semi-formal poll and extensive discussion rejected less restrictive language, applying only to Featured Articles, by a 2:1 margin. This dispute calls for involvement by a greater range of users, both in terms of the procedure for altering a longstanding guideline and the substance of the change. Monicasdude 20:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
We all know that Jimbo made some changes in our image deletion policy recently. I'm trying to stay updated with the changes, but perhaps this one eluded me: are we no longer allowed to upload images for use in our own user pages? I don't think this has been banned, and if it hasn't, I'd really like to know why someone tagged an image that was being used [solely] on my user page as an orphaned fair use image for deletion. It would seem, however, that it was a bot that did that, which shows that this, and perhaps other bots, might be malfunctioning. But what's worse is that an Admin deleted the image as a speedy. Maybe we need a general reminder that a speedy tag does not vacate the need to check thoroughly before deleting, especially images, because, well, tags may be misused. That was really regretable, something that really should not have happened — unless, as I said, we are now no longer allowed to upload images that will (or might) not be used in articles (that is, images for the purpose of use in a user's user page). Regards, Redux 15:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, but that seems to confirm what I had said: no [wouldbe] fair use images can be used on user pages if that's the only place where it is being used. That's a tough spot for many users out there. But I've started to review the US fair use laws (I've not completed my review yet, so this is a partial assessment), the use of the image that would be covered by fair use on my user page can very well be considered informative. The image evokes Brazil, and I'm using it to indicate to readers that I am Brazilian, which I do not say in the text. There's no profit to be derived from the situation, which indicates that the sole purpose of using the image was to inform of my condition as a Brazilian. So the question would be: what is informative? Does it relate to the importance of what's being informed? That is, my condition as a Brazilian is of no particular relevance to the reader per se (in that regard, it could be [very roughly!] compared to the contents of a gossip magazine: it's not really important, but people just might want to know about it), as opposed to the contents of an article, which is supposed (at least in theory) to contain relevant information. Now, the purpose of a user page on Wikipedia is to provide some information about the user in question, and informing my nationality, through that image, is perfectly within the boundaries of this purpose. Back when I uploaded it (I'd have to re-check this now), I found the image on multiple websites from Brazil (unrelated), which, thinking retrospectivelly, would indicate that the copyright holder (if the image was not free — hence the tag I had used on the image when I re-uploaded it, and which has already been removed) allowed it's free use throughout the web (noticing that no one was using it "with express permission"). Maybe my understanding of US copyrights provisions still needs some polishing, but it would seem (to me) that the image would be usable under the fair use provision on my user page. Or am I completely off? Regards, Redux 21:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
There are two words which seem central to most issues arising from entries, both new pages and individual edit/additions, these are
I have spent many days searching for some guidance on these concepts within wikipedia. 'Notability' though a bit arcane at times is decipherable. But... "encyclopedic" is a real catch 22. a search for guidance gets redirected to "what wikipedia is not" where there is no mention of the subject. which sort of implies that if something survives long enough to be in wikipedia it is therefore encyclopedic.
I would dearly love to see some guidance on this matter as I'm sure im not alone in experiencing good, well written (by others) passages being deleted because they haven't appealed to somebodies sense of encyclopedic, more often meaning they dont think them important.
I realise that this is probably a very tiresome subject for a lot of old hands - but a policy, or even a single sentence statement would really help to establish a yardstick. rather than a pointer to a page of negatives
there is also a more subtle issue here - where all of the notes on 'notability' make absolute sense in relation to articles, they dont when it comes to a single point of information, say a sentence or even a paragraph. once a subject is clearly notable surely most additional info must be too, provided it is verifiable etc. The same goes for encyclopedic, surely once the main subject is assured of its credentials then it follows that any nested detail will become less major, to eventually end up minor bordering on trivia. Now it is easy to identify a page subject as trivial, but the most momentous subjects are comprised of individual facts that, taken individualy are highly likely to be trivial. For example. the school Albert Einstein went to. His grades, both perhaps trivial seperately, but relevant when you realise that he left school with no qualifications at all.
I hope that this hasn't come across as a rant, one thing wikipedia is teaching me, is to be more diplomatic - but I'm not quite there yet. this is a genuine call for guidance, or better still a pointer to a definition, I have no bones to pick or edit war to win.
and now someone is going to say, "it was there all the time" thanks DavidP 04:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
"Encyclopedic" is like "pornographic": very hard to define, but a lot of people think they know it when they see it. :) Basically, "unencyclopedic" can be considered shorthand for "I believe instinctively that this subject does not belong on Wikipedia: I can't be bothered to look for a specific way it fails WP:NOT, but I hope it does, and if it doesn't then it jolly well should."
Not the answer you're looking for, maybe, but that appears to be how the term is actually used. (It's certainly how I use it.) — Haeleth Talk 21:38, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
There is a fundamental lack of consensus on whether Wikipedia is an encyclopedia as the word is currently understood, or whether Wikipedia is something completely new that redefines the understanding of what an encyclopedia should be. There's a sort of Heisenberg uncertainty principle at work here.
It should be mentioned that the word "encylopedic" outside of Wikipedia generally does not mean "suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia." It means "having the characteristics of an encyclopedia," as in, "He has an encyclopedic memory." That said, I don't know what word would mean "suitable for inclusion," and the use of the word "encyclopedic" to mean that on Wikipedia has probably become too ingrained to stop the practice. -- Mwalcoff 23:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Under US case law (e.g. CCC Information Services v. MacLean Hunter Market Reports, Kregos v. Associated Press, Eckes v. Card Prices Update, Key Publications, Inc. v. Chinatown Today Publishing Enters., Inc.), the courts have consistently held that a list of information whose selection or creation requires editorial creativity is subject to copyright protection. This includes such items as "What are the best places to eat in Denver" or "What are the best statistics to use in judging baseball". If someone creates a "Best of..." or "Most Important..." list based on subjective criteria then the list, when considered in its entirety, is a protected form of expression even if individual elements of that list are facts beyond the scope of copyright.
The effect here is that we should not be republishing such a list in its entirety, as doing so is an infringement on the owner's copyright. (Note that this only applies to lists involving creative judgments, lists based on facts or polling are not subject to copyright protection.)
What about fair use? There are four factors one must consider under the US fair use doctrine:
Because of these issues, I propose that the lists in the articles below be deleted. In some cases, like The 100 there is critical discussion which should be kept, with a greatly abbreviated version of the list that could sustain a fair use claim. In many cases however, someone has merely copied the content of someone else's list onto Wikipedia, and these should probably be deleted in totality. I started to post several of these on WP:CP, and someone complained and asked for a broader discussion, so here it is. Dragons flight 06:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
To quote Dragons flight's own talk page: "No, as I said there, IANAL. I do however work in real life areas where I have to be familiar with and care about intellectual property law. Dragons flight" as such he is NOT A LAWYER and cannot state publically as such with authority... however BD Abramson AN ACTUAL IP LAWYER has stated: "See Feist v. Rural. The formula itself is merely an idea, and is not subject to copyright; only the expression of the idea can be protected, and the listing here does not duplicate the expression because it differs significantly from the layout of the Newsweek list. See Kregos v. Associated Press, 937 F.2d 700 (2d Cir. 1991). I've maintained such a list - indeed one more similar to Newsweek's own - in my user space for quite some time without fear of legal action, because I'm quite confident that this is no copyvio (and even if it was, it would easily qualify as fair use)."
Sorry DF but in this case I can only say mind your business and speak on a subject in which you are A RECOGNIZED AUTHORITY. ALKIVAR ™ 08:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree 100% with User:Dragon's flight. Copyright laws clearly cover the creation of lists that have any creativity in them. What the laws do not cover are simply functional lists, such as phone books and so forth. These list articles, plus Top 1000 Scientists: From the Beginning of Time to 2000 AD which I ran across today and probably several others. clearly violate the law. Furthermore, let's get real here, the vast majority of these are not encyclopedic in the least. Why risk lawsuits over something that doesn't contribute anything of value to this project? DreamGuy 17:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think this is redundant with what has been said above ... Jimbo Wales and the WikiMedia Foundation have weighed in on this in a limited way in the context of "list of articles found in Encyclopedia X that should be in Wikipedia" and the decision has been to remove those lists that can thoughtfully be considered copyright violations. I don't have the links to the discussion threads at my fingertips here but I'm sure that someone will be able to produce those links for general edification here in short order (I'll look for them later if I don't see them here when I have time to do so). Regards, Courtland 19:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been running across a lot of Image red links, and at least some of the time it is because the Image used to exist, but has been deleted for one reason or another (no source, incompatible license terms, etc.). I don't have a problem with them being deleted, but shouldn't the Article links to them get removed at the same time? For example, Charleston, South Carolina currently has a visible File:CharlestonSC.jpg, because the pic was deleted [12] but the link was left ( List of flags also wasn't updated [13]). Why shouldn't incoming Article link removal be part of the standard Image deletion procedure? Waterguy 22:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)