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In the course of my browsing today, I chanced upon the Moonlight Sonata article, about Beethoven's Piano Sonata in C#m, which contains (inter alia) the following pieces of information, under the sub heading "Trivia":
This is utter dreck which I have deleted with satisfaction, but it raises in my mind a bigger question: why does Wikipedia tolerate a "Trivia" subheading in articles at all? By definition, trivia is unimportant, non notable material. Is there not be a guideline saying "please don't include pointless trivia"? If there isn't, shouldn't there be? ElectricRay 00:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Eww Eww Eww. Incorporate the info into the article somehow or I will come after you with a vengeance for making such headings. Even a different heading such as Uses... or Mentions in Popular Culture as is said above. If they're not all related to each other, then find a way to incorporate the info into the article. (Have you noticed yet that I hate these trivia sections?) — Ilyan e p (Talk) 01:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Similar things were discussed at wikipedia talk:trivia - I'll move this discussion there too, when it's finished. -- Francis Schonken 07:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I hate these. I hate them. I HATE THEM. Look at the last 50 edits to Marduk (as of this post): almost all of them are additions of such valuable gems as "In Namco's PS2 game Tekken 4, one of the playable characters is named Craig Marduk" and "In the anime series Neon Genesis Evangelion, the Evangelion pilots are chosen by a mysterious organization called the "Marduk Institute." The Institute is actually a front for SEELE, who are in possession of secret dead sea scrolls that fortell the fate of humanity and the end of the world.". Drivel, written by teenage boys, which has only the slightest tangential relevance to the topic of the article.
Look at the article right now. The crap now fills half of it—in spite of User:A Man In Black's valiant (but doomed) excision of the previous junk not three months ago—and it's only going to grow.
Okay, finished ranting. User:Wetman's suggested solution is the right one; the kiddies can scribble to their heart's content, and people who want to read about classical music or Mesopotamian mythology aren't distracted by poorly-written irrelevancies. — Charles P._ (Mirv) 08:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Wetman's suggested solution is an excellent one, but for the fact that those opposed to "elitism" (etc.) would object to it. Yes, this trivia is dreary, as are "References in popular culture", which I've seen somewhere. How about the solution of a link from the (very shaky) article on Citizen Kane to " List of references to Citizen Kane in other work"? Failing that, a "Trivia" section is a good idea, given that WP is editable by all, and that thousands of earnest teenagers (of all ages) take this stuff seriously and will insist on sticking it somewhere. Better that it's labeled "trivia" than for it to muck up substantive sections of an article. And of course if some item within it is not trivial, people are free to move this item elsewhere, while leaving all the "Simpsons" references (etc etc etc) as they are. -- Hoary 08:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
All very good suggestions. Wetman, I have done as you suggested on the Marduk article - see now References to Marduk in Popular Culture and when I get a moment I will do the same for LVB. Hoary, I sort of see your point, but think there's a fine distinction between elitism and plain irrelevance - it would be equally irrelevant to the topic of Mesopotamian mythological figure - and deserving of jettison to the black expanses of deep space - that there was a character named Marduk in the Book of Kells. ElectricRay 09:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I've been having the same sorts of problems all over the place. Lilith, Chimera, Dragon, Dracula, Behemoth, Jack the Ripper, Werewolf, etc. etc. keep getting filled up with all sorts of trivial references to video games, anime, roleplaying game supplements, one off mentions in tv shows, incidental one off lyriucs in songs, etc. I remove this dreck constantly every day. One of the major problems is that it's difficult to have real consensus to remove them because so many kiddies all get together to try to claim that info is vitally important. "Castlevania is the most well known and important video game series of them all, so I am going to list all the details here." etc. About the only way I've been able to have any lasting sanity is to create Werewolves in fiction, Jack the Ripper fiction, liberally move the crap to disambiguation pages and then just give up on trying to keep the cruft out of that offshoot article. It's like segregation or something. Whenever someone puts crap in the main one I suggest the offshoot, and then the offshoot is total crap but oh well. I personally think Trivia headings should just not be used, and that it's very, very clear that trivial mentions... some character named after some mythical character, one off appearances in comic books, D&D or other RPG adapting something, Magic the Gathering card, Pokemon character, etc... do not belong in the main articles unless those articles are specifically about that fictioncruft and not the main topic. We desperately need stronger policy on this, and maybe, I don't know, something to make it more clear that this is supposed to be an ENCYCLOPEDIA and not just long fanlists of every silly trivial fictional reference you can think of. DreamGuy 22:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't we distinguish between trivia that actually relate to the subject of the article, and trivia connected with persons or entities that just happen to have the same name? Many of the points in Marduk in popular culture don't relate to Marduk (that is the subject of the Marduk article) at all, they relate to fictional characters that just happen to have the same name, so they should surely go to a disambiguation page? -- rossb 15:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's my take, illustrated with two examples (though these are not editing suggestions for the LvB article):
"Helpful trivia":
"Unhelpful trivia"
I don't think that trivia sections should be blamed on teenage boys. For example, the Richard Stallman article has a sizeable trivia section, and I doubt that many teenagers are really into him, as the oldest current teenagers were only born in the late 1980s (the youngest about 1992-1993). Also, most teenagers have probably never heard of Amiga. Adding trivia is probably more related to interest in the topic than age or sex. -- Kjkolb 17:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
One quarter of
Gorilla article is taken by "popular culture" references, most of them bellow even trivial value. I suggest to always create leaf article when the amount of trivias reaches certain level. Since it is practically impossible to get rid of trivia at least they can be moved away from more serious encyclopedic stuff.
Pavel Vozenilek 03:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this sort of thing really so bad? I'm glad to see evidence that Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata still has an influence on popular culture. Plenty of Wikipedia editors heard their first notes of Wagner by watching Apocalypse Now. Popular references to Joan of Arc didn't get dumped from the page. They inspired me to translate lists of sculptures and paintings from French. The video games, manga, and television shows now have their own section at the bottom of a branching page about artistic representations of Joan of Arc. If this gets young people interested in history, if it leads them to George Bernard Shaw and William Shakespeare, then I'm all for it. Durova 23:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
There are quite a few disambiguation pages that are stubs or even sizable articles that have a list of links below to more specific terms. For example, hose has two small paragraphs explaining what they are and then links to things like fire and garden hoses. I don't like this example very much because almost everyone knows what a hose is and it is not as long as some other articles, but hopefully you'll be able to get the idea. When making a link, this kind of disambiguation page is often the most appropriate (like if you wanted a link about hoses in general). The problem is that links to disambiguation pages are discouraged and the pages tend to have unrelated disambiguations. Hose is not too bad. It just has pantyhose and a village named hose. Should these pages just be linked to as is, should the disambiguation tag be removed (if all of the disambiguations are subtopics of a main topic, either naturally or by moving related terms to a new article) or should a new page for the overall topic be created, like "hose (tube)"? -- Kjkolb 22:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I've opened a straw poll on the User RFC process. See Wikipedia:User RFC reform. All comments are welcome. Crotalus horridus ( TALK • CONTRIBS) 04:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
NPOV As a new user, doesn't the 'criticism' in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invitrogen violate the NPOV guideline...? If not why? If so, how does one change/delete it without vandalizing?
user: hebertbrian Hebertbrian 00:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Should rumor and speculation be included in articles? Is it encyclopedic to include rumor/speculation if its unverifiable nature is made explicit? Ditto concerning mention of information contained in tabloids: is it ok to say "in Y article the National Enquirer said X" as long as it is included as speculation? Wondering what everyone else thinks... Turly-burly 04:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think what Turly-burly is referring to is the inclusion of information that U.S. President George W. Bush began "drinking again", and having it be a reliable reference in the article George W. Bush substance abuse controversy and the reference from National Enquirer is from here. I am not a big fan of rather slick tabloid media for a reference base of pejoritive information. I find it rather slanderous and unencyclopedic, but I may be entirely incorrect in that assumption. I would be more than pleased if a reference of the information from a media source of a more respected nature was available.-- MONGO 08:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
WP should have a clearly written policy regarding tabloid sources (both the periodicals and supermarket books) specifying when they might be appropriate to use (such as when lawsuits, as reported in reliable sources, have been provoked) and when they are not appropriate (most other times), since they amount to unverifiable hearsay and can sway the content and tone of an article completely away from the documented record. This issue has been an editorial cancer in the social sciences, especially in biographies. See Nick Adams and the talk archives for Elvis Presley for how disruptive and unhelpful the use of tabloid material can be on WP. Wyss 19:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Until January 31, 2006 when
User:Jguk posted a rewrite,
Wikipedia:Verifiability (Dubious sources)
[1] stated that: "For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable." As such, this change in long-standing policy seems to leave it wide open to quote junk Tabloids or any other such publication so long as you state the source. -
Ted Wilkes 19:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I know that blanking one's own user talk page is frowned upon, but is this backed up with any policy or guideline? Thanks in advance for any help! CLW 18:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
This is an interesting edit. An anon user deleted external links with edit sum removal of copyrighted material.
Well, the links actually seem to me to be a form of linkspam, but maybe not. They don't actually point to video files; I went to a couple and got a little runaround before being dumped into (in one case) a link farm and (in the other) a link farm plus what may actually be a link to a video. I suspect this dynamically-generated link will not work for anyone else. On sight, I suspect that if there is a video at the end of this rainbow, it's probably bootlegged -- but I certainly don't know this. But all these are side issues, are they not? Another side issue is the question of whether -- assuming that the links were good, that they really pointed to videos, and that those videos were legitimately released -- it would be appropriate to include them in an article about the band that made them. I think so, but I don't think that's the key issue here.
Can we link to illegal content? Easy to say no. But I don't see how we are capable of vetting all our external links in this way. Link to, say, a major film studio's trailer site -- probably legit. Link to one of the many trailer/promo sites (such as http://www.movie-list.com/), maybe okay too. But there is a continuous spectrum of such sites shading right into the Ukranian Mafia "copywho?" sites. Where do we draw the line? It's clear to me that a link itself violates no copyright.
Take the issue out of the context of copyvio and it sprouts more hair. Some site advocates the violent overthrow of the US Government; if the people that run it are notable, we might create an article about them. Should we not link to the site itself? Note that the site is in violation of US law; free speech does not protect at this limit. (cf this Mississippi State Statute.) "Patriots" will say no link; but put the shoe on the other foot. Another site advocates the independence of Taiwan from China. This site is in clear violation of Chinese law. Can we link to it?
Either:
What shall we do? John Reid 13:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, but I smell trouble. If we make an effort to remove illegal links and overlook some that are illegal, then it seems as if we've been negligent. If we declare that we are unable to determine the legality of the sites that we link, we're taking a higher ground. Better if we don't assume the responsibility.
I'm certainly not going to restore any questionable external links; but I'm not going to remove any, either. John Reid 17:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There has never been a naming convention for television programming on Wikipedia so there are articles currently named:
Please help out by voting at the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)/poll and voting on through February 15 2006. There have been two previous polls [2], [3], which failed to reach a consensus and proved to be divisive. Make your opinion heard and fix this issue! Thanks for your input and votes -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 18:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I am new to Wikipedia. I have posted an article about our non-profit organization, which is continuously being sabotaged by right-wing group(s) trying to smear our organization.
Is ther eanything we can do to prevent this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.173.201.108 ( talk • contribs)
Is it possible to illustrate an article on an artist with multiple images of that artist’s work under fair use terms. Justin Foote 01:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've seen a number of articles that are either hard or soft redirects to wiktionary definitions and have no other content in their history. These seem like candidates for speedy deletion to me, but I don't know if there's any consensus or policy about this. -- Zwilson 06:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I've written an essay, Wikipedia:How userboxes help build the encyclopedia, distilling a number of my thoughts on the userbox matter. Any comments, support, criticism, etc. are appreciated. Crotalus horridus ( TALK • CONTRIBS) 18:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I regularly watch internet phenomenon / meme type pages and I think that there needs to be some sort of guideline as to what constitutes a notable internet phenomenon. (I posted something similar on the talk page a month or so ago at internet phenomenon but there weren't any takers.) Some questions that arise:
Just some things to think about. -- Hamiltonian 01:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the key point here is not about "internet memes" in general but rather about permitting private individuals to remain outside the glare of the limelight if they so choose. There are laws on this, IIRC, in every state in the USA, and I would imagine elsewhere as well. Information that is true and even interesting is still not permissible for publication if it compromises privacy. This is still true with public figures but the standard favors publishers more. "Internet memes" that are not personally identifiable, such as the "lost frog" meme, do not pose a problem. "Memes" based on public figures, such as the flash cartoons from whichever U.S. presidential campaign it was, do not pose a problem. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 05:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The Star Wars kid falls under this category as well. If not permissable, his page would have to be deleted, as he didn't seek out notability. VegaDark 06:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
To my reading, the relevant policies address this on three points:
If the answer to all three questions is no, then the person deserves respectful privacy from Wikipedia. Durova 09:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Snopes.com has an entry on brian peppers, and that site contains much less information and a much smaller scope than wikipedia. There is no reason it is not "newsworthy." 'Brian peppers' on google has 154.000 hits.
it's can be really diffucult sometimes to get an accurate feel for time scales when graphs on certain page are on a left-to-right time scale, and some are on a right-to-left. this is (or was) perhaps most prevalent on pages related to Global Warming, or Climate Change, or other geological time scale articles.
could we put in place a policy of all timescale moving from left-to-right? that seem the most appropriate to me, as in mathematics left is generally negative, and right is generally psitive on graphs, and we read left-to-right as well.
I'm no so fussed about the direction, just about the standardisation.-- naught101 22:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
In some cases of long time lines (in the hundreds of thousands of years range), some scientists have gotten used to reversed time scales (reversed from the usual convention of time flowing to the right). I reversed the timeline on a couple of graphs in question quite successfully, and with some applause, particularly because they then were consistent with the convention of the rest of the graphs on the page, and because they contained enlargements of recent times. See Image:Carbon Dioxide 400kyr-2.png vs. Image:Carbon Dioxide 400kyr.png and Image:Carbon_History_and_Flux-2.png vs. Image:Carbon_History_and_Flux.png. What I did was reverse the whole image, and then individually reverse the text. In one case I had to do a patchup of a dozen pixels, but that was it. Hu 17:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This new and simple process for article deletion has gone live for a test run. Please use {{ prod}} to mark articles for deletion. If you disagree with such a proposal, please remove the tag, and while you're editing the article anyway improve it to alleviate the concerns. >Radiant< 11:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to draw attention and comment to on a draft poll to determine naming convention for companies and businesses. I have looked around a number of places and have only seen comments to the effect of "we should have a convention" or "do we have a convention" on how to name a XXX company. This has either the effect of drawing a few uninterested comments or a stirring up a heated debate. In either case the net result is generally zero. Your comments to help clarify this poll and later corresponding vote would be greatly appreciated. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 17:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Voting has begun and will continue until March 5. Please resolve this lagging issue. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 22:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if Wikipedia has a specific policy or preference regarding how many spaces to use after the end of a sentence before the next sentence begins (one or two). Most articles that I have seen use just one space, though I personally perfer to use two and believe that it helps to better distinguish the beginnings and ends of sentances in a paragraph. If Wikipedia has a preference, then I would like to know it. Thank you.-- Conrad Devonshire 01:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
-- Melsyfox84 01:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Melsyfox84 8:42 p.m. February 9,2006 I am writing an article for my school newspaper at the University of Delaware. The article is about the Massachusettes politician Martin Meehan and his staff's recent acknowledgment of their editing of Meehan's Wikipedia profile. More specifically, the edit, which was done by staffer Matt Vogel, consisted of deletion of a campaign policy Meehan did not follow through with. When Wikipedia became aware of the "edit" they blocked certain IP addresses from Meehan's staff. I was wondering if anyone can help me get some quotes for my article, especially anyone very familiar with Wikipedia. Here are some questions I have:
What specifically happened to cause Wikipedia to block certain addresses?
What is not considered appropriate when it comes to Wikipedia's policy on "editing" a page?
How do you define "edit", is deleting info. or omitting certain info. considered unethical?
With hundreds of thousands of articles, how did Wikipedia find the changes made to Meehan's page? The change was made in July '05 and Meehan's staff did not admit to the changes until January...
How are editors dealt with when they violate Wikipedia's policies?
What should people, perhaps students, reporters, researchers, etc. take into account in terms of credibility when using Wikipedia?
Is there anyone I could contact who actively/ frequently edits on Wikipedia?
Thank you, any help is greatly appreciated!!
I've noticed that some articles don't seem to follow the Wikipedia naming conventions if they are abbreviated as acronyms. For example, Asynchronous Transfer Mode (ATM) and Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS). Is there a reason that these titles should not be lowercase? -- Kjkolb 02:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Ye olde olde page: User:Theresa_knott/Those_who_disagree_with_Angela_must_not_sign_their_comments
Kim Bruning 13:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
At the article Battle of Sarikamish there is an ongoing edit dispute regarding the number of casualties of the forces involved. I haven't taken any part in the dispute but trying to find some figures on the google I came across this which is the most reliable source I've come up with so far. The problem is that this article is from Encyclopaedia Brittanica Online. Can I use this as a citation to help resolve the edit warring?? Or would it be copyright infringment?? -- Michalis Famelis 01:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I am writing an article for my school newspaper at the University of Delaware. The article is about the Massachusettes politician Martin Meehan and his staff's recent acknowledgment of their editing of Meehan's Wikipedia profile. More specifically, the edit, which was done by staffer Matt Vogel, consisted of deletion of a campaign policy Meehan did not follow through with. When Wikipedia became aware of the "edit" they blocked certain IP addresses from Meehan's staff. I was wondering if anyone can help me get some quotes for my article, especially anyone very familiar with Wikipedia. Here are some questions I have:
What specifically happened to cause Wikipedia to block certain addresses?
What is not considered appropriate when it comes to Wikipedia's policy on "editing" a page?
How do you define "edit", is deleting info. or omitting certain info. considered unethical?
With hundreds of thousands of articles, how did Wikipedia find the changes made to Meehan's page? The change was made in July '05 and Meehan's staff did not admit to the changes until January...
How are editors dealt with when they violate Wikipedia's policies?
What should people, perhaps students, reporters, researchers, etc. take into account in terms of credibility when using Wikipedia?
Is there anyone I could contact who actively/ frequently edits on Wikipedia?
Thank you, any help is greatly appreciated!!
Does anyone know when unregisted users are allowed to create pages again?
Is there an existing policy and/or consensus on the creation of family trees as their own independent articles within WP? Pepsidrinka 21:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please help completing the table below. The table is on a separate page, that opens when clicking the "edit" link below.
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) is the place for discussions on the English Wikipedia page names of individual monarchs. -- Francis Schonken 09:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
In office as ruler of Poland (for some approx.) |
Polish name (from pl:wikipedia) |
Page name at en:Wikipedia | Remarks |
---|---|---|---|
Monarchs | |||
... | ... | ... | ... |
1386-1434 | Władysław II Jagiełło | Wladyslaw II/V of Poland, Jogaila of Lithuania | Compromise, since
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) has no special provisions when a ruler changes name when acquiring a second realm (this ruler was in office in Lithuania since 1377, he didn't receive his Christian name Wladyslaw until conversion to catholicism when acquiring the Polish throne); Double numbering ("II" and "V") while both are used when referring to this Polish ruler: "II" is more common (but overlaps with another Polish ruler, see Wladislaw II of Poland dab page); "V" is less ambiguous, and is also often used. "Jagiello" (the Polish version of Jogaila) is not used in the wikipedia page name while overlapping with another Wladyslaw II Jagiello, see Ladislaus Jagiello dab page. |
... | ... | ... | ... |
1573-1574 | Henryk III Walezy | Henry III of France | per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), better known as ruler of France |
1575-1587 (most of the reign together with her husband Stefan Batory) |
Anna Jagiellonka | Anna of Poland | per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), "Anne/Anna Jagiellon(ka)" overlaps with at least two other women (that, btw, also both can be called "Anna of Poland", see Anna of Poland) - because of the unavoidable confusion whatever way it is turned, the "names and titles" guideline is applied very strict in this case, while considered least confusing in Wikipedia context |
1576-1586 | Stefan Batory | Stefan Batory | per most used in English; note that there is some ambiguity with his father, a namesake in common English spelling, but presently at the Hungarian spelling of the name, István Báthory |
1587-1632 | Zygmunt III Waza | Sigismund III of Poland | per
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), best known as ruler of Poland, although (for some years) also ruler of Sweden. Compare Henry III of France above: it's not because this ruler is better known in France than in Poland, that his name would suddenly be written in French (not "Henri III de France", and even less "Henri III (de) Valois"). So also for this Sigismund the spelling most common in English is used, applying the names & titles guideline:
Note that the ordinal "III" also only applies to of Poland (in Swedish there is usually no ordinal) |
... | ... | ... | ... |
1669-1673 | Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki | Michael Korybut Wisniowiecki | per most used in English |
1674-1696 | Jan III Sobieski | Jan III Sobieski | per most used in English |
... | ... | ... | ... |
Presidents | |||
... | ... | ... | ... |
2005-... | Lech Kaczyński | Lech Kaczynski | English spelling of name according to the English pages on The official website of the City of Warsaw (PS, the same website spells Lech Kaczyński on its pages in Polish [4]) |
... | ... | ... | ... |
User:JQF proposes to include the copyrighted image Image:GuanlongWucaii.jpg in the Guanlong article on the grounds (I think) that the image formed part of a press release and therefore is in the public domain.
Are these grounds adequate? Press releases come with an implied licence for news organizations to redistribute them, but is that implied licence good enough for us?
There's more about this issue at this foundation-l mail thread and at Talk:News release.
Gdr 17:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello there. Just realized that some deleted a part of a debate (about wether the infamous Mummad drawings should be in the top of the article about its controversy). I assumed there would be a clear Wiki policy about that - but I couldnt find anything. Has this subject not been discussed before, and is their no policy about it? Bertilvidet 13:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:No original research is a bad policy. I tried to analyze the semantics of George W. Bush's Sixth State of the Union Address, which keeps on getting vandalized (and no administrator has taken action), and was told this was against policy. I assume Howcheng, who referred me, meant:
"In this context it means unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments that, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation"."
Interpretation or actual original research is one thing, but analysis should not be included in this list. We dont need a source to say that "we remember the events of september 11" is a reference to the September 11 Attacks. Please see the page and my expansion of the page to see what I mean. KI 22:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Recently on the Commons, we had a debate about what colours to use in SVG flag images, and we noted that some of the official government definitions of national flags included references to Pantone colours. So we used approximations of those Pantone colours, but we got them from many different sources, causing conflicts. Consequently, I decided to post a house reference chart of Pantone colours onto the Commons to help us reach a consensus, but then legal issues came up, i.e. the fact that Pantone does not allow free use of its colour name/value list.
Since Pantone has an iron fist on its intellectual property, and references to Pantone colours cause conflicts, we are left with few options. Denelson 83 04:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I posted this in the HelpDesk but it might properly belong to this place. Please also see the reply of Eequor below. Thanks for any help, confirmation of my interpretation or Eequor's, or my response to EEquor's, but I would prefer an "official interpretation." Where can I get this? I suppose this is the place? Lafem 05:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV policy states: "we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties."
Since the conjunction used here is or implying that the second part is but an alternative, should we take this to mean that if there are experts on the subject with different points of view, there is no need to look into how the topic itself affects concerned parties nor much less how the ordinary people opine about the subject.
I base my interpretation in that the decision on what is majority and minority viewpoints is based on reference texts (experts I presume) and prominent adherents. See NPOV policy: "From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list: If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;* If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents." Also the policy of No Original Research seems to back this up.
To summarize: the "or" means that if there are experts, commonly referenced texts and prominent adherents, we should not look into the opinions of ordinary people or how people in general feel about the subject? Thanks. Lafem 12:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
How about seeing this policy from the No Original Research Point of View:
In general I believe that you're interpretation is correct: the topic was in reference to minority points of view, and if the experts are fairly unanimous about something, and the references are fairly unanimous, you can express their views to a greater degree than the opposing view point. Thus, for instance, our article on the Common cold does not say that being cold gives you the cold, even though that is view held by a significant proportion of non-scientists. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 15:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
anyone who wants to see a complete failure of NPOV policy should look at Nakba Zeq 08:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking on some guidance on whether external links to forums and discussion groups should be allowed. Their supporters claim that they provide access to a range of opinions on POV issues. But they are usually so wide-ranging, and it's almost impossible to identity groups and their views without a read through thousands of posts. RJB 22:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Every so often I notice someone userfying an autobiographical page just to get it out of the article space without going through deletion procedures. Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines recommends doing this under some circumstances and I did it myself sometimes before db-bio existed. However, with the procedures we have now, people should avoid doing this routinely. If someone registers and, as their first edit, creates a vanity article that gets userfied, and never edits again, the article is junk that should have been deleted. In such cases I recommend tagging the article for deletion and leaving the new user a {{nothanks-vanity}} message to encourage further contributions. If an article by a new user appears to mistake Wikipedia for a free web host, it should be proposed for deletion in that case also pursuant to WP:NOT.
This comment was motivated by the article now at User:Worldcantwait, which is not about the user at all, but about an activist organization the user claims to be involved in. Gazpacho 06:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
On 10 February 2006, around 02:58, I was blocked by KillerChihuahua. (OK, so it was only for 15 minutes, but I didn't know that at that time.) I immediately sent an email protesting the block and explaining the reasons for my edits. It was not until some 3 hours later that KillerChihuahua responded to my email. I don't think it's fair for an Admin to block a User -- thereby limiting to email any communication from the User to the Admin -- while that Admin is in a position where ( in their own words) "I cannot always access my email and it may be a day or two before you receive a reply". Ewlyahoocom 11:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia editors and admins are volunteers. Nobody is going to be at your beck and call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. User:Zoe| (talk) 21:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
A block may be a last resort but it can also be made by mistake. wikipedia has to make a descision. is wikipedia going to be run by a cabel after whose descision there is no appeal or by an open and fair process? Plugwash 21:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
What is the policy on article headers such as '1992-1995: Early times', '1995-1997: Public recognition', etc? I personally think they seem odd. — Ilyan e p (Talk) 02:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In general, style manuals (including ours) deprecate starting sentences with numerals, and I think that the same reasoning applies to headings. In other words, I'm essentially agreeing with Kirill Lokshin, but adding a mild appeal to authority. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
See also
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (numbers and dates)#Other events - "1992-95" → "1992-1995" (years always written in full) --
Francis Schonken 11:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Oops, sorry, should've mentioned the nuances straight away:
-- Francis Schonken 16:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Moved from top of section -- Where do I report plagarism these days? There seems to be one involving Marrickville, New South Wales and this page but I do not know where to report it. There seems to be nothing on the wikipedia policy pages, for instance. Arno 01:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking about ways to improve Wikipedia:How to write a great article and I realized that I don't know that much about availability of free access to private research databases at public libraries in other countries. Do libraries in other countries have widespread access to such databases, just as Americans have widespread access to ProQuest, EBSCO, Thomson Gale's Infotrac, etc.? If so, perhaps a couple such databases could be noted in the article so that it will reflect a worldwide view. -- Coolcaesar 20:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
What are people's opinions of the use of other wikis as reliable sources? I realise this is an argument that potentially cuts to the core of the viability of us as a reliable source, but should we cite other wikis as sources or should we verify and then cite the sources they have used? Steve block talk 10:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
This article incorporates text from the article on Main_Page in Wipipedia, the free-content Fetish and BDSM encyclopedia.
I realize that this is a somewhat unique case since it's an article about the Wiki using information from the Wiki, but the note in Memory Alpha's references section is along the lines of what we should do if we cite wikis at all. That, and/or put a "date accessed" (with link to the page version, similar to MA's reference for Mr. Doddema's "interview") when we cite them. Anyway, as much as I am a proponent of wikis, the truth is that the average user considers something less reliable and professional if it cites a wiki (including Wikipedia) due to their dynamic nature. So I agree entirely with Steve's observation. Jibbajabba 19:15, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why an article which fails no fewer than five content policies, and smashes through three of the Five Pillars has only one person advocating its deletion? Currently, it has only attracted the attentions of a half-dozen editors who evidently don't know original research when it is biting at what they perceive to be their elbows. A quick glance at the offending article shows that each entry is clearly new data measured by the users involved. (I've looked, and hard. Trust me when I say that this data just is not available anywhere else). 10:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
I think that this "blocking" of members who just want to add something to the Wikipedia by blocking their AOL URL is silly
There has to be a better way to pursue this.
Here's the whole text that I had written today to honor St. Valentine's Day:
"Silly Love Songs" is a song written and sung by the British musical genius Paul McCartney, formerly a member of the Beatles.
McCartney had been teased by fellow Beatle and songwriter John Lennon for always writing his "silly love songs". And so, McCartney paid him back by writing and performing the song "Silly Love Songs" which contains the lyric "silly love songs". "Silly Love Songs" became a hugely popular hit worldwide.
That is all. It was foolish to block this, especially since I had just finished with editing typographical/grammar/factual errors in some other articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dale101usa ( talk • contribs) .
Traditionally the ISBN is written out with dashes (such as 0-8160-4059-1), however with so many electronic databases that use ISBNs, from stores like Amazon to library card catalogs) the numbers have been written without the dashes (i.e 0816040591). Is there a standard convention on Wikipedia? - Koweja 23:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on User:Talrias/Task forces proposal. Cheers, Talrias ( t | e | c) 22:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem is not userboxes. The problem is divisiveness. The solution is not JUST to delete a userbox, but to EXPAND the divisive content into a creative expression of one's self:
It seems clear, though few want to describe it this way, that there is a strong sentiment (from Jimbo and others) that there are certain types of content that, when in userspace, has a negative effect on WP, because they lead to divisiveness, disputes, infighting, balkanization, outrage, etc., etc., etc.
People are walking around this core issue, trying to impose administrative structures on content spaces, creating new speedying criteria, etc. All of these are side-steps, workarounds, stop-gaps, or ostrich solutions.
Let's own up to it -- we can probably consensually agree on a number of things that any experienced WP contributor and/or sensible person would realize are detrimental to WP. Instead of allowing everyone (i.e. every admin) define these on their own, leading to a slew of inconsistent treatments, we should define these consensually, as a community.
To that end, I propose Wikipedia:Unacceptable userspace material ( WP:UUSM).
- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
For a long time, there has been a serious mismatch between the Manual of Style guidance and the article implementation of date links. Several editors have been reducing this mismatch in accordance with:
Unfortunately, Ambi and perhaps another admin have applied and threatened blocks if the guidance is implemented. In my janitorial capacity I do a lot of work on a lot of articles but I have been told to leave the guidance unimplemented. A few other editors are also being prevented from implementing the guidance, but are less visible. Thus we now have guidance (i.e. the Manual of Style) and undocumented meta-guidance (constraints from dissenting editors with blocking powers). It really would be better if dissenting editors would work to change guidance rather than target editors that follow the guidance. I care less about the actual guidance than my ability to continue my janitorial work in peace.
The Manual of style is a valuable resource to increase the quality of Wikipedia (consistency etc). It also serves as a reference point for those that have incompatible preferences. It would be a shame if it were not permissible to implement it for fear of being blocked.
We are already several weeks into this unofficial ban on implementation of guidance. My questions are these:
bobblewik 16:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It has happened more than once, that someone has "slipped something in" to the MoS with minimal feedback. It annoys me, too, especially when I use the MoS to bolster an argument only to find that—surprise!—it's been changed out from under me when I wasn't looking. I'd hate this misusage to result in the MoS being considered purely advisory, though, or to have its guidance be considered out of bounds for bot editing. Might I suggest that, instead, we institute a new rule: that if someone intends to use a bot to implement MoS guidance, or to start a collaboration project or JavaScript tool or any other mechanism to bring a large number of pages into compliance quickly, that they be required to notify editors concerned with the rule of their intentions, by posting to the relevant MoS's talk page several days ahead of starting the widespread article edits? This would give people a chance to say, "hey, wait, where did that rule come from?" without entirely stopping constructive bot usage to improve MoS compliance. -- TreyHarris 05:05, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
??? is the question at hand
Unless we know the problem we are trying to solve, we surely have little chance to solve it. Right?
thanks Hmains 06:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd have been much happier if the original poster had written I want to unlink portions of dates with a bot instead of ...is it otherwise permissible to implement guidance.... The latter is bafflegab that strains so hard to cast the debate in terms of Right vs Wrong (with the poster on the side of the angels, or at least authority) that it's almost impossible to discover the subject.
You'll never know where my sympathies might have lain on this issue, since now I'm alienated from the debate. John Reid 06:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
There are a couple of images on Corbis I would like to use for articles, but am reluctant to upload images from such a commercial stock image site. The images in question are pre-1923, as stated in the image information on the website. I do not know if they were in fact published before 1923 though. Corbis claims copyright on the digital version. What has been the general practice or policy with inclusion of such images on Wikipedia? — Eoghanacht talk 14:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
They are black and white studio portraits of George Jay Gould II (aka "Jay Gould" or "Jay Gould, Jr."). The pictures are very obviously professionally done -- but with no photographer referenced. The first seems to have an older non-Corbis copyright tag in the lower corner -- although I cannot read all of it (only the city) at the preview resolution. This first one also has a 1910 date in the Corbis info. Unfortunately I just realized that this first image has a faint "CORBIS" watermark over it (not particulary visible in this particular image, though). The second image does not have a date, but he looks several years younger than he is in another image dated 1925. I have a version of this second file without the watermark. — Eoghanacht talk 16:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for all your comments. If someone would like to take the time to upload and explain the use of Corbis images IH185261 and/or IH179075 for article George Jay Gould II, you are welcome to do so -- otherwise I'll add the task to my to-do list, as I am a little too busy at the moment. Also, I will make a note of this for future reference for other images/articles. — Eoghanacht talk 14:57, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
What about university collections? Such collections often have online search, but then when you read their usage policies, they require a fee or permissions. Is this a crock, as well? For example, The Brown University Archive of African American Sheet Music places this disclaimer on each image page : "This object is available for public use. Individuals interested in reproducing this object in a publication, web site or for any commercial purpose must first receive written permission from the Brown University Library." The images in question are very old, and should easily fall within public domain. I've seen similar disclaimers at other online archives of PD material. (Incidentally, I haven't contacted them, and they might be very nice about letting Wikipedia use their images. I just want some ideas on whether they have the right to make such a demand in the first place.) — BrianSmithson 18:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Salute to All - I request that you please examine and consider Wikipedia:Defense of content, which is a collection of ideas to fight vandalism better. Rama's Arrow 16:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a discussion on Wikipedia talk:Three revert rule over the policy and changes made to the page. Some users believe the spirit of the policy has changed since originally voted on and adopted as policy. Other users feel the the changes made and the practice of the new implementations applied make it substantial enough to hold new changes, yet their was no formal process of consensus beyond that.
Discussion has led to the point where even an admin has threatened a user with a block from Wikipedia if the user reverts a recent change by another admin to the policy, which essentially changes the spirit of the policy by force without discussion. Any attempts to discuss the changes have led to some admins complaint of "wasting time" or "trying to game the system." An attempt to add a tag by two different users on the policy page to advertise {{ActiveDiscussion}} has led to the revert of that tag and the response of "there is no discussion."
One user reported the changes to wikien-l and immediately declared the page an edit war despite attempts to establish discussion.
The 3RR page needs attention from a well rounded group of users to establish a neutral policy. It appears at a first glance that a few admins have joined together and outnumbered the views of the other users, which is clearly not a neutral view and has not demonstrated any attempt to try for a neutral view and update policy by means of a established procedure.
— Dzonatas 14:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone missed it, a poll opened at Wikipedia:Userbox policy poll which, I think, stands a chance at ending the bloodshed. Current tally is 26 yay and 4 nay (not that it is a vote or anything). Broken Segue 04:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Heyo - long story short, I've ended up writing an opinion piece on whether it's a good idea for students to use Wikipedia when doing research. As part of this, I wanted to briefly mention Wikipedia's future plans to make Wikipedia more stable/reliable. I read in the nature.com Britannica/Wikipedia comparison that there were plans to A. have a 'stable article' system, where once an article was deemed accurate/complete enough it would have a frozen 'stable' version and a seperate, 'live version, and B. to have a sort of article review system. I haven't found any other information on A, and am not entirely sure what B means. Could someone direct me to information on future Wikipedia plans, or give me a synopsis? And while I've used Wikipedia for years I've never quite figured out how to navigate the community parts, so this may very well be the wrong place to ask this question - if it is, please direct me to somewhere more appropiate. Thanks! Aerothorn 01:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
This is a policy proposal onn userboxes, developed by Pathoschild from an original by Doc glasgow.
It picked up quite a lot of favorable comments in Pathoschild's userspace and so after discussion I've moved it to WP:UBP (which believe it or not hasn't actually had any concrete proposals on the main page for weeks).
-- Tony Sidaway 05:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Articles about future products cite the company as the main source of verifiable information. The problem occurs when the marketing department of a company purposely distorts what is likely to happen in order to gain a market advantage. Example: it is in Sony's interest to keep potential game purchases believing the PS3 will be released soon in order to hold off purchases of XBox 360. It may not matter that there are many credible rumors out there that there is no chance of a significant release of the product within the company stated time frame because the company is verifiable and the other sources aren't. In my opinion Wikipedia policy of NPOV is in contradition with verifiability in this example, since most people looking at the situation would agree on a different release date then the one the company is publishing.
So what is the solution?
In conclusion if we continue the current course of policy we become pawns for companies marketing departments to add credence to their half truths.
Daniel.Cardenas 02:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Today I took the opportunity of an interview on IRC, organised by The Signpost, to ask Jimbo about userboxes:
I think that puts it pretty plainly. It's not just that he doesn't personally like userboxes, but speaking as the leader of the project he finds the current situation unacceptable. Something must change, one way or the other. -- Tony Sidaway 21:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia project. I tend to think userboxes provoke PoV of the most unhelpful sort. I also think that a user's userboxes can be misinterpreted by other editors, who might make snap judgements about a user's supposed PoV based on her userboxes and edit accordingly. IMHO most userboxes will ultimately be divisive and pull the project away from scholarly principles. That said, I like them when they pertain to practical stuff having directly to do with the wiki interface... OS userboxes, browser, admin, bureaucrat, arbcomm, mediation, country and language userboxes I think may be either neutral or helpful. Wyss 23:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
If a Wiki entry corresponds to a physical location, like a museum, would it be acceptable to add an External Link to the address in Google maps? Seems OK to me, but I don't know about any underlying licenses or other etiquette.
I've added it to the article for the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens. -- GregCovey 19:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Are admins users who must follow the rules that apply to all users? Is adminship an assigned task or a reward? Are admins entitled to conduct themselves in an overbearing manner, lording it over the little people? Is adminship itself an entitlement that must be granted to any user with a high edit count? What is adminship -- or better, what is adminship not?
These points are addressed in the policy proposal Wikipedia:What adminship is not. This cuts off commonly mistaken ideas about adminship in the tradition of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not.
I call for all users to participate in the discussion on talk and help to establish answers to the questions above. John Reid 17:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there a policy or guideline addressing lists of "famous residents" in city/town articles? - Chris 14:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I have created two articles, Berge Østenstad some time ago and Leif Øgaard today. I wonder how they should be sorted into the categories. From looking at the Berge Østenstad history, I see it has been moved backwards and forwards between being sorted under "O" and "Ø" a few times. Note that the letter " Ø" is not just a variation of the letter " O". In the Norwegian language it is the 28th letter of the alphabet, and in a Norwegian encyclopedia you would find articles beginning with "Ø" at the back, only ahead of the articles beginning with " Å". The times I create articles with these letters (Æ, Ø, Å) I try to remember to create redirects with the normal English letters, but sort them using the Norwegian ones.
So my question is should Leif Øgaard and Berge Østenstad be sorted under "O" or "Ø"? Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I was horrified to see that completely untrue things that were said about me in Talk pages were turning up in Google when searching for my name.
The people saying these things know that (1) they are untrue, (2) they are malicious, (3) they can hurt my professional reputation, and (4) they will show up in Google searches. Knowing these four things, and also knowing that some things they are saying will never be allowed in a somewhat more legitimate article, they use disrespectful, disgusting language in Talk pages and one or two User pages.
We all know there is unadulterated slime in Wiki--but why should EVERYTHING ANYBODY WRITES NO MATTER HOW DISGUSTING be available to Google?
Surely, this is a terribly wrong policy and should be changed!-- samivel 23:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
A Norman T.A. Munder article reads : ""[his] life indicates what can be accomplished by individual merit guided by the highest Christian principles ...".
We should assume here in WP that morality or principles are not the results of one and only belief. Comments welcomed. -- DLL 22:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
This concern several types of images that are normally considered specific occurences of {{ fairuse}}, but mostly the various {{ screenshot}} (althought the reasoning can be extended to stuff like {{ bookcover}} and {{ promotional}}).
Does that reasoning hold? Circeus 13:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
And here's what Jimbo Wales said on the official English Wikipedia mailing list. I don't know why, but a lot of otherwise clued up Wikipedians don't subscribe to that, which is a shame because they often end up wondering what's happening when a big change comes along.
(Excerpted)
Full version at http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-February/039853.html
-- Tony Sidaway 06:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Am I right in thinking I'm allowed to copy a properly licensed picture to Commons? The one I have in mind is http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Witvleugduif.jpg, which I'd like to use at White-winged Dove. I'd copy the Dutch description and license (GFDL).
Am I right in thinking I'm allowed to edit a properly licensed picture and save it under another name? I'd like to crop and enlarge http://en.wikipedia.org/wikiImage:Laughing_Falcon.jpg so it will fit better at Laughing Falcon. I hate to do that without the author's permission, but his or her user page and talk page are redlinked.
Are the answers to these questions available somewhere? Are they considered obvious?
— JerryFriedman 18:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
In the last couple of weeks there have been a flurry of changes to article stub templates to remove links to wikiprojects on the dubious basis that the links are link spam. This is being lead by User:Jerzy (sysop), User:Freakofnurture (admin), and User:Carnildo (de-sysop) with justification based on their own comments at Wikipedia talk:Stub. Attempts to restore the templates is turning into revert wars. Garglebutt / (talk) 05:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Changes are currently focussed around this list: User:Jerzy/WikiProj-soliciting_stub_templates. Garglebutt / (talk) 05:50, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The whole point of a WikiProject is for consistency- to make all the articles to conform to a similar structure. By removing the notice from the stub you're undermining this. Do you want California 1, CA-2, CA 3, California Route 4, California Highway 5, California State Route 6, California State Highway 7, CA Highway 8, etc.? Change the wording if you must, but I think that there are more critical things to resist on Wikipedia than so-called "ownership" of articles by WikiProjects. -- Rschen7754 ( talk - contribs) 05:13, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
As it seems, from the discussion above, that at least one of the people removing the links is willing to accept them with a different wording, which is also accepted by those involved with the WikiProject, I strongly urge that everyone work together to change the wordings on the stub templates to follow this form, and neither remove the links nor throw around charges of bad faith, etc. JesseW, the juggling janitor 19:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
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In the course of my browsing today, I chanced upon the Moonlight Sonata article, about Beethoven's Piano Sonata in C#m, which contains (inter alia) the following pieces of information, under the sub heading "Trivia":
This is utter dreck which I have deleted with satisfaction, but it raises in my mind a bigger question: why does Wikipedia tolerate a "Trivia" subheading in articles at all? By definition, trivia is unimportant, non notable material. Is there not be a guideline saying "please don't include pointless trivia"? If there isn't, shouldn't there be? ElectricRay 00:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Eww Eww Eww. Incorporate the info into the article somehow or I will come after you with a vengeance for making such headings. Even a different heading such as Uses... or Mentions in Popular Culture as is said above. If they're not all related to each other, then find a way to incorporate the info into the article. (Have you noticed yet that I hate these trivia sections?) — Ilyan e p (Talk) 01:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Similar things were discussed at wikipedia talk:trivia - I'll move this discussion there too, when it's finished. -- Francis Schonken 07:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I hate these. I hate them. I HATE THEM. Look at the last 50 edits to Marduk (as of this post): almost all of them are additions of such valuable gems as "In Namco's PS2 game Tekken 4, one of the playable characters is named Craig Marduk" and "In the anime series Neon Genesis Evangelion, the Evangelion pilots are chosen by a mysterious organization called the "Marduk Institute." The Institute is actually a front for SEELE, who are in possession of secret dead sea scrolls that fortell the fate of humanity and the end of the world.". Drivel, written by teenage boys, which has only the slightest tangential relevance to the topic of the article.
Look at the article right now. The crap now fills half of it—in spite of User:A Man In Black's valiant (but doomed) excision of the previous junk not three months ago—and it's only going to grow.
Okay, finished ranting. User:Wetman's suggested solution is the right one; the kiddies can scribble to their heart's content, and people who want to read about classical music or Mesopotamian mythology aren't distracted by poorly-written irrelevancies. — Charles P._ (Mirv) 08:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Wetman's suggested solution is an excellent one, but for the fact that those opposed to "elitism" (etc.) would object to it. Yes, this trivia is dreary, as are "References in popular culture", which I've seen somewhere. How about the solution of a link from the (very shaky) article on Citizen Kane to " List of references to Citizen Kane in other work"? Failing that, a "Trivia" section is a good idea, given that WP is editable by all, and that thousands of earnest teenagers (of all ages) take this stuff seriously and will insist on sticking it somewhere. Better that it's labeled "trivia" than for it to muck up substantive sections of an article. And of course if some item within it is not trivial, people are free to move this item elsewhere, while leaving all the "Simpsons" references (etc etc etc) as they are. -- Hoary 08:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
All very good suggestions. Wetman, I have done as you suggested on the Marduk article - see now References to Marduk in Popular Culture and when I get a moment I will do the same for LVB. Hoary, I sort of see your point, but think there's a fine distinction between elitism and plain irrelevance - it would be equally irrelevant to the topic of Mesopotamian mythological figure - and deserving of jettison to the black expanses of deep space - that there was a character named Marduk in the Book of Kells. ElectricRay 09:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I've been having the same sorts of problems all over the place. Lilith, Chimera, Dragon, Dracula, Behemoth, Jack the Ripper, Werewolf, etc. etc. keep getting filled up with all sorts of trivial references to video games, anime, roleplaying game supplements, one off mentions in tv shows, incidental one off lyriucs in songs, etc. I remove this dreck constantly every day. One of the major problems is that it's difficult to have real consensus to remove them because so many kiddies all get together to try to claim that info is vitally important. "Castlevania is the most well known and important video game series of them all, so I am going to list all the details here." etc. About the only way I've been able to have any lasting sanity is to create Werewolves in fiction, Jack the Ripper fiction, liberally move the crap to disambiguation pages and then just give up on trying to keep the cruft out of that offshoot article. It's like segregation or something. Whenever someone puts crap in the main one I suggest the offshoot, and then the offshoot is total crap but oh well. I personally think Trivia headings should just not be used, and that it's very, very clear that trivial mentions... some character named after some mythical character, one off appearances in comic books, D&D or other RPG adapting something, Magic the Gathering card, Pokemon character, etc... do not belong in the main articles unless those articles are specifically about that fictioncruft and not the main topic. We desperately need stronger policy on this, and maybe, I don't know, something to make it more clear that this is supposed to be an ENCYCLOPEDIA and not just long fanlists of every silly trivial fictional reference you can think of. DreamGuy 22:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't we distinguish between trivia that actually relate to the subject of the article, and trivia connected with persons or entities that just happen to have the same name? Many of the points in Marduk in popular culture don't relate to Marduk (that is the subject of the Marduk article) at all, they relate to fictional characters that just happen to have the same name, so they should surely go to a disambiguation page? -- rossb 15:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's my take, illustrated with two examples (though these are not editing suggestions for the LvB article):
"Helpful trivia":
"Unhelpful trivia"
I don't think that trivia sections should be blamed on teenage boys. For example, the Richard Stallman article has a sizeable trivia section, and I doubt that many teenagers are really into him, as the oldest current teenagers were only born in the late 1980s (the youngest about 1992-1993). Also, most teenagers have probably never heard of Amiga. Adding trivia is probably more related to interest in the topic than age or sex. -- Kjkolb 17:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
One quarter of
Gorilla article is taken by "popular culture" references, most of them bellow even trivial value. I suggest to always create leaf article when the amount of trivias reaches certain level. Since it is practically impossible to get rid of trivia at least they can be moved away from more serious encyclopedic stuff.
Pavel Vozenilek 03:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Is this sort of thing really so bad? I'm glad to see evidence that Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata still has an influence on popular culture. Plenty of Wikipedia editors heard their first notes of Wagner by watching Apocalypse Now. Popular references to Joan of Arc didn't get dumped from the page. They inspired me to translate lists of sculptures and paintings from French. The video games, manga, and television shows now have their own section at the bottom of a branching page about artistic representations of Joan of Arc. If this gets young people interested in history, if it leads them to George Bernard Shaw and William Shakespeare, then I'm all for it. Durova 23:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
There are quite a few disambiguation pages that are stubs or even sizable articles that have a list of links below to more specific terms. For example, hose has two small paragraphs explaining what they are and then links to things like fire and garden hoses. I don't like this example very much because almost everyone knows what a hose is and it is not as long as some other articles, but hopefully you'll be able to get the idea. When making a link, this kind of disambiguation page is often the most appropriate (like if you wanted a link about hoses in general). The problem is that links to disambiguation pages are discouraged and the pages tend to have unrelated disambiguations. Hose is not too bad. It just has pantyhose and a village named hose. Should these pages just be linked to as is, should the disambiguation tag be removed (if all of the disambiguations are subtopics of a main topic, either naturally or by moving related terms to a new article) or should a new page for the overall topic be created, like "hose (tube)"? -- Kjkolb 22:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I've opened a straw poll on the User RFC process. See Wikipedia:User RFC reform. All comments are welcome. Crotalus horridus ( TALK • CONTRIBS) 04:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
NPOV As a new user, doesn't the 'criticism' in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invitrogen violate the NPOV guideline...? If not why? If so, how does one change/delete it without vandalizing?
user: hebertbrian Hebertbrian 00:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Should rumor and speculation be included in articles? Is it encyclopedic to include rumor/speculation if its unverifiable nature is made explicit? Ditto concerning mention of information contained in tabloids: is it ok to say "in Y article the National Enquirer said X" as long as it is included as speculation? Wondering what everyone else thinks... Turly-burly 04:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think what Turly-burly is referring to is the inclusion of information that U.S. President George W. Bush began "drinking again", and having it be a reliable reference in the article George W. Bush substance abuse controversy and the reference from National Enquirer is from here. I am not a big fan of rather slick tabloid media for a reference base of pejoritive information. I find it rather slanderous and unencyclopedic, but I may be entirely incorrect in that assumption. I would be more than pleased if a reference of the information from a media source of a more respected nature was available.-- MONGO 08:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
WP should have a clearly written policy regarding tabloid sources (both the periodicals and supermarket books) specifying when they might be appropriate to use (such as when lawsuits, as reported in reliable sources, have been provoked) and when they are not appropriate (most other times), since they amount to unverifiable hearsay and can sway the content and tone of an article completely away from the documented record. This issue has been an editorial cancer in the social sciences, especially in biographies. See Nick Adams and the talk archives for Elvis Presley for how disruptive and unhelpful the use of tabloid material can be on WP. Wyss 19:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Until January 31, 2006 when
User:Jguk posted a rewrite,
Wikipedia:Verifiability (Dubious sources)
[1] stated that: "For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable." As such, this change in long-standing policy seems to leave it wide open to quote junk Tabloids or any other such publication so long as you state the source. -
Ted Wilkes 19:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I know that blanking one's own user talk page is frowned upon, but is this backed up with any policy or guideline? Thanks in advance for any help! CLW 18:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
This is an interesting edit. An anon user deleted external links with edit sum removal of copyrighted material.
Well, the links actually seem to me to be a form of linkspam, but maybe not. They don't actually point to video files; I went to a couple and got a little runaround before being dumped into (in one case) a link farm and (in the other) a link farm plus what may actually be a link to a video. I suspect this dynamically-generated link will not work for anyone else. On sight, I suspect that if there is a video at the end of this rainbow, it's probably bootlegged -- but I certainly don't know this. But all these are side issues, are they not? Another side issue is the question of whether -- assuming that the links were good, that they really pointed to videos, and that those videos were legitimately released -- it would be appropriate to include them in an article about the band that made them. I think so, but I don't think that's the key issue here.
Can we link to illegal content? Easy to say no. But I don't see how we are capable of vetting all our external links in this way. Link to, say, a major film studio's trailer site -- probably legit. Link to one of the many trailer/promo sites (such as http://www.movie-list.com/), maybe okay too. But there is a continuous spectrum of such sites shading right into the Ukranian Mafia "copywho?" sites. Where do we draw the line? It's clear to me that a link itself violates no copyright.
Take the issue out of the context of copyvio and it sprouts more hair. Some site advocates the violent overthrow of the US Government; if the people that run it are notable, we might create an article about them. Should we not link to the site itself? Note that the site is in violation of US law; free speech does not protect at this limit. (cf this Mississippi State Statute.) "Patriots" will say no link; but put the shoe on the other foot. Another site advocates the independence of Taiwan from China. This site is in clear violation of Chinese law. Can we link to it?
Either:
What shall we do? John Reid 13:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, but I smell trouble. If we make an effort to remove illegal links and overlook some that are illegal, then it seems as if we've been negligent. If we declare that we are unable to determine the legality of the sites that we link, we're taking a higher ground. Better if we don't assume the responsibility.
I'm certainly not going to restore any questionable external links; but I'm not going to remove any, either. John Reid 17:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There has never been a naming convention for television programming on Wikipedia so there are articles currently named:
Please help out by voting at the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)/poll and voting on through February 15 2006. There have been two previous polls [2], [3], which failed to reach a consensus and proved to be divisive. Make your opinion heard and fix this issue! Thanks for your input and votes -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 18:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I am new to Wikipedia. I have posted an article about our non-profit organization, which is continuously being sabotaged by right-wing group(s) trying to smear our organization.
Is ther eanything we can do to prevent this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.173.201.108 ( talk • contribs)
Is it possible to illustrate an article on an artist with multiple images of that artist’s work under fair use terms. Justin Foote 01:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've seen a number of articles that are either hard or soft redirects to wiktionary definitions and have no other content in their history. These seem like candidates for speedy deletion to me, but I don't know if there's any consensus or policy about this. -- Zwilson 06:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I've written an essay, Wikipedia:How userboxes help build the encyclopedia, distilling a number of my thoughts on the userbox matter. Any comments, support, criticism, etc. are appreciated. Crotalus horridus ( TALK • CONTRIBS) 18:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I regularly watch internet phenomenon / meme type pages and I think that there needs to be some sort of guideline as to what constitutes a notable internet phenomenon. (I posted something similar on the talk page a month or so ago at internet phenomenon but there weren't any takers.) Some questions that arise:
Just some things to think about. -- Hamiltonian 01:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the key point here is not about "internet memes" in general but rather about permitting private individuals to remain outside the glare of the limelight if they so choose. There are laws on this, IIRC, in every state in the USA, and I would imagine elsewhere as well. Information that is true and even interesting is still not permissible for publication if it compromises privacy. This is still true with public figures but the standard favors publishers more. "Internet memes" that are not personally identifiable, such as the "lost frog" meme, do not pose a problem. "Memes" based on public figures, such as the flash cartoons from whichever U.S. presidential campaign it was, do not pose a problem. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 05:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The Star Wars kid falls under this category as well. If not permissable, his page would have to be deleted, as he didn't seek out notability. VegaDark 06:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
To my reading, the relevant policies address this on three points:
If the answer to all three questions is no, then the person deserves respectful privacy from Wikipedia. Durova 09:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Snopes.com has an entry on brian peppers, and that site contains much less information and a much smaller scope than wikipedia. There is no reason it is not "newsworthy." 'Brian peppers' on google has 154.000 hits.
it's can be really diffucult sometimes to get an accurate feel for time scales when graphs on certain page are on a left-to-right time scale, and some are on a right-to-left. this is (or was) perhaps most prevalent on pages related to Global Warming, or Climate Change, or other geological time scale articles.
could we put in place a policy of all timescale moving from left-to-right? that seem the most appropriate to me, as in mathematics left is generally negative, and right is generally psitive on graphs, and we read left-to-right as well.
I'm no so fussed about the direction, just about the standardisation.-- naught101 22:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
In some cases of long time lines (in the hundreds of thousands of years range), some scientists have gotten used to reversed time scales (reversed from the usual convention of time flowing to the right). I reversed the timeline on a couple of graphs in question quite successfully, and with some applause, particularly because they then were consistent with the convention of the rest of the graphs on the page, and because they contained enlargements of recent times. See Image:Carbon Dioxide 400kyr-2.png vs. Image:Carbon Dioxide 400kyr.png and Image:Carbon_History_and_Flux-2.png vs. Image:Carbon_History_and_Flux.png. What I did was reverse the whole image, and then individually reverse the text. In one case I had to do a patchup of a dozen pixels, but that was it. Hu 17:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This new and simple process for article deletion has gone live for a test run. Please use {{ prod}} to mark articles for deletion. If you disagree with such a proposal, please remove the tag, and while you're editing the article anyway improve it to alleviate the concerns. >Radiant< 11:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to draw attention and comment to on a draft poll to determine naming convention for companies and businesses. I have looked around a number of places and have only seen comments to the effect of "we should have a convention" or "do we have a convention" on how to name a XXX company. This has either the effect of drawing a few uninterested comments or a stirring up a heated debate. In either case the net result is generally zero. Your comments to help clarify this poll and later corresponding vote would be greatly appreciated. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 17:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Voting has begun and will continue until March 5. Please resolve this lagging issue. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 22:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if Wikipedia has a specific policy or preference regarding how many spaces to use after the end of a sentence before the next sentence begins (one or two). Most articles that I have seen use just one space, though I personally perfer to use two and believe that it helps to better distinguish the beginnings and ends of sentances in a paragraph. If Wikipedia has a preference, then I would like to know it. Thank you.-- Conrad Devonshire 01:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
-- Melsyfox84 01:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Melsyfox84 8:42 p.m. February 9,2006 I am writing an article for my school newspaper at the University of Delaware. The article is about the Massachusettes politician Martin Meehan and his staff's recent acknowledgment of their editing of Meehan's Wikipedia profile. More specifically, the edit, which was done by staffer Matt Vogel, consisted of deletion of a campaign policy Meehan did not follow through with. When Wikipedia became aware of the "edit" they blocked certain IP addresses from Meehan's staff. I was wondering if anyone can help me get some quotes for my article, especially anyone very familiar with Wikipedia. Here are some questions I have:
What specifically happened to cause Wikipedia to block certain addresses?
What is not considered appropriate when it comes to Wikipedia's policy on "editing" a page?
How do you define "edit", is deleting info. or omitting certain info. considered unethical?
With hundreds of thousands of articles, how did Wikipedia find the changes made to Meehan's page? The change was made in July '05 and Meehan's staff did not admit to the changes until January...
How are editors dealt with when they violate Wikipedia's policies?
What should people, perhaps students, reporters, researchers, etc. take into account in terms of credibility when using Wikipedia?
Is there anyone I could contact who actively/ frequently edits on Wikipedia?
Thank you, any help is greatly appreciated!!
I've noticed that some articles don't seem to follow the Wikipedia naming conventions if they are abbreviated as acronyms. For example, Asynchronous Transfer Mode (ATM) and Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS). Is there a reason that these titles should not be lowercase? -- Kjkolb 02:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Ye olde olde page: User:Theresa_knott/Those_who_disagree_with_Angela_must_not_sign_their_comments
Kim Bruning 13:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
At the article Battle of Sarikamish there is an ongoing edit dispute regarding the number of casualties of the forces involved. I haven't taken any part in the dispute but trying to find some figures on the google I came across this which is the most reliable source I've come up with so far. The problem is that this article is from Encyclopaedia Brittanica Online. Can I use this as a citation to help resolve the edit warring?? Or would it be copyright infringment?? -- Michalis Famelis 01:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I am writing an article for my school newspaper at the University of Delaware. The article is about the Massachusettes politician Martin Meehan and his staff's recent acknowledgment of their editing of Meehan's Wikipedia profile. More specifically, the edit, which was done by staffer Matt Vogel, consisted of deletion of a campaign policy Meehan did not follow through with. When Wikipedia became aware of the "edit" they blocked certain IP addresses from Meehan's staff. I was wondering if anyone can help me get some quotes for my article, especially anyone very familiar with Wikipedia. Here are some questions I have:
What specifically happened to cause Wikipedia to block certain addresses?
What is not considered appropriate when it comes to Wikipedia's policy on "editing" a page?
How do you define "edit", is deleting info. or omitting certain info. considered unethical?
With hundreds of thousands of articles, how did Wikipedia find the changes made to Meehan's page? The change was made in July '05 and Meehan's staff did not admit to the changes until January...
How are editors dealt with when they violate Wikipedia's policies?
What should people, perhaps students, reporters, researchers, etc. take into account in terms of credibility when using Wikipedia?
Is there anyone I could contact who actively/ frequently edits on Wikipedia?
Thank you, any help is greatly appreciated!!
Does anyone know when unregisted users are allowed to create pages again?
Is there an existing policy and/or consensus on the creation of family trees as their own independent articles within WP? Pepsidrinka 21:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please help completing the table below. The table is on a separate page, that opens when clicking the "edit" link below.
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Polish rulers) is the place for discussions on the English Wikipedia page names of individual monarchs. -- Francis Schonken 09:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
In office as ruler of Poland (for some approx.) |
Polish name (from pl:wikipedia) |
Page name at en:Wikipedia | Remarks |
---|---|---|---|
Monarchs | |||
... | ... | ... | ... |
1386-1434 | Władysław II Jagiełło | Wladyslaw II/V of Poland, Jogaila of Lithuania | Compromise, since
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) has no special provisions when a ruler changes name when acquiring a second realm (this ruler was in office in Lithuania since 1377, he didn't receive his Christian name Wladyslaw until conversion to catholicism when acquiring the Polish throne); Double numbering ("II" and "V") while both are used when referring to this Polish ruler: "II" is more common (but overlaps with another Polish ruler, see Wladislaw II of Poland dab page); "V" is less ambiguous, and is also often used. "Jagiello" (the Polish version of Jogaila) is not used in the wikipedia page name while overlapping with another Wladyslaw II Jagiello, see Ladislaus Jagiello dab page. |
... | ... | ... | ... |
1573-1574 | Henryk III Walezy | Henry III of France | per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), better known as ruler of France |
1575-1587 (most of the reign together with her husband Stefan Batory) |
Anna Jagiellonka | Anna of Poland | per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), "Anne/Anna Jagiellon(ka)" overlaps with at least two other women (that, btw, also both can be called "Anna of Poland", see Anna of Poland) - because of the unavoidable confusion whatever way it is turned, the "names and titles" guideline is applied very strict in this case, while considered least confusing in Wikipedia context |
1576-1586 | Stefan Batory | Stefan Batory | per most used in English; note that there is some ambiguity with his father, a namesake in common English spelling, but presently at the Hungarian spelling of the name, István Báthory |
1587-1632 | Zygmunt III Waza | Sigismund III of Poland | per
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), best known as ruler of Poland, although (for some years) also ruler of Sweden. Compare Henry III of France above: it's not because this ruler is better known in France than in Poland, that his name would suddenly be written in French (not "Henri III de France", and even less "Henri III (de) Valois"). So also for this Sigismund the spelling most common in English is used, applying the names & titles guideline:
Note that the ordinal "III" also only applies to of Poland (in Swedish there is usually no ordinal) |
... | ... | ... | ... |
1669-1673 | Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki | Michael Korybut Wisniowiecki | per most used in English |
1674-1696 | Jan III Sobieski | Jan III Sobieski | per most used in English |
... | ... | ... | ... |
Presidents | |||
... | ... | ... | ... |
2005-... | Lech Kaczyński | Lech Kaczynski | English spelling of name according to the English pages on The official website of the City of Warsaw (PS, the same website spells Lech Kaczyński on its pages in Polish [4]) |
... | ... | ... | ... |
User:JQF proposes to include the copyrighted image Image:GuanlongWucaii.jpg in the Guanlong article on the grounds (I think) that the image formed part of a press release and therefore is in the public domain.
Are these grounds adequate? Press releases come with an implied licence for news organizations to redistribute them, but is that implied licence good enough for us?
There's more about this issue at this foundation-l mail thread and at Talk:News release.
Gdr 17:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello there. Just realized that some deleted a part of a debate (about wether the infamous Mummad drawings should be in the top of the article about its controversy). I assumed there would be a clear Wiki policy about that - but I couldnt find anything. Has this subject not been discussed before, and is their no policy about it? Bertilvidet 13:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:No original research is a bad policy. I tried to analyze the semantics of George W. Bush's Sixth State of the Union Address, which keeps on getting vandalized (and no administrator has taken action), and was told this was against policy. I assume Howcheng, who referred me, meant:
"In this context it means unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments that, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation"."
Interpretation or actual original research is one thing, but analysis should not be included in this list. We dont need a source to say that "we remember the events of september 11" is a reference to the September 11 Attacks. Please see the page and my expansion of the page to see what I mean. KI 22:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Recently on the Commons, we had a debate about what colours to use in SVG flag images, and we noted that some of the official government definitions of national flags included references to Pantone colours. So we used approximations of those Pantone colours, but we got them from many different sources, causing conflicts. Consequently, I decided to post a house reference chart of Pantone colours onto the Commons to help us reach a consensus, but then legal issues came up, i.e. the fact that Pantone does not allow free use of its colour name/value list.
Since Pantone has an iron fist on its intellectual property, and references to Pantone colours cause conflicts, we are left with few options. Denelson 83 04:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I posted this in the HelpDesk but it might properly belong to this place. Please also see the reply of Eequor below. Thanks for any help, confirmation of my interpretation or Eequor's, or my response to EEquor's, but I would prefer an "official interpretation." Where can I get this? I suppose this is the place? Lafem 05:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The NPOV policy states: "we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties."
Since the conjunction used here is or implying that the second part is but an alternative, should we take this to mean that if there are experts on the subject with different points of view, there is no need to look into how the topic itself affects concerned parties nor much less how the ordinary people opine about the subject.
I base my interpretation in that the decision on what is majority and minority viewpoints is based on reference texts (experts I presume) and prominent adherents. See NPOV policy: "From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list: If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;* If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents." Also the policy of No Original Research seems to back this up.
To summarize: the "or" means that if there are experts, commonly referenced texts and prominent adherents, we should not look into the opinions of ordinary people or how people in general feel about the subject? Thanks. Lafem 12:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
How about seeing this policy from the No Original Research Point of View:
In general I believe that you're interpretation is correct: the topic was in reference to minority points of view, and if the experts are fairly unanimous about something, and the references are fairly unanimous, you can express their views to a greater degree than the opposing view point. Thus, for instance, our article on the Common cold does not say that being cold gives you the cold, even though that is view held by a significant proportion of non-scientists. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 15:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
anyone who wants to see a complete failure of NPOV policy should look at Nakba Zeq 08:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking on some guidance on whether external links to forums and discussion groups should be allowed. Their supporters claim that they provide access to a range of opinions on POV issues. But they are usually so wide-ranging, and it's almost impossible to identity groups and their views without a read through thousands of posts. RJB 22:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Every so often I notice someone userfying an autobiographical page just to get it out of the article space without going through deletion procedures. Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines recommends doing this under some circumstances and I did it myself sometimes before db-bio existed. However, with the procedures we have now, people should avoid doing this routinely. If someone registers and, as their first edit, creates a vanity article that gets userfied, and never edits again, the article is junk that should have been deleted. In such cases I recommend tagging the article for deletion and leaving the new user a {{nothanks-vanity}} message to encourage further contributions. If an article by a new user appears to mistake Wikipedia for a free web host, it should be proposed for deletion in that case also pursuant to WP:NOT.
This comment was motivated by the article now at User:Worldcantwait, which is not about the user at all, but about an activist organization the user claims to be involved in. Gazpacho 06:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
On 10 February 2006, around 02:58, I was blocked by KillerChihuahua. (OK, so it was only for 15 minutes, but I didn't know that at that time.) I immediately sent an email protesting the block and explaining the reasons for my edits. It was not until some 3 hours later that KillerChihuahua responded to my email. I don't think it's fair for an Admin to block a User -- thereby limiting to email any communication from the User to the Admin -- while that Admin is in a position where ( in their own words) "I cannot always access my email and it may be a day or two before you receive a reply". Ewlyahoocom 11:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia editors and admins are volunteers. Nobody is going to be at your beck and call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. User:Zoe| (talk) 21:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
A block may be a last resort but it can also be made by mistake. wikipedia has to make a descision. is wikipedia going to be run by a cabel after whose descision there is no appeal or by an open and fair process? Plugwash 21:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
What is the policy on article headers such as '1992-1995: Early times', '1995-1997: Public recognition', etc? I personally think they seem odd. — Ilyan e p (Talk) 02:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In general, style manuals (including ours) deprecate starting sentences with numerals, and I think that the same reasoning applies to headings. In other words, I'm essentially agreeing with Kirill Lokshin, but adding a mild appeal to authority. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
See also
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (numbers and dates)#Other events - "1992-95" → "1992-1995" (years always written in full) --
Francis Schonken 11:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Oops, sorry, should've mentioned the nuances straight away:
-- Francis Schonken 16:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Moved from top of section -- Where do I report plagarism these days? There seems to be one involving Marrickville, New South Wales and this page but I do not know where to report it. There seems to be nothing on the wikipedia policy pages, for instance. Arno 01:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking about ways to improve Wikipedia:How to write a great article and I realized that I don't know that much about availability of free access to private research databases at public libraries in other countries. Do libraries in other countries have widespread access to such databases, just as Americans have widespread access to ProQuest, EBSCO, Thomson Gale's Infotrac, etc.? If so, perhaps a couple such databases could be noted in the article so that it will reflect a worldwide view. -- Coolcaesar 20:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
What are people's opinions of the use of other wikis as reliable sources? I realise this is an argument that potentially cuts to the core of the viability of us as a reliable source, but should we cite other wikis as sources or should we verify and then cite the sources they have used? Steve block talk 10:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
This article incorporates text from the article on Main_Page in Wipipedia, the free-content Fetish and BDSM encyclopedia.
I realize that this is a somewhat unique case since it's an article about the Wiki using information from the Wiki, but the note in Memory Alpha's references section is along the lines of what we should do if we cite wikis at all. That, and/or put a "date accessed" (with link to the page version, similar to MA's reference for Mr. Doddema's "interview") when we cite them. Anyway, as much as I am a proponent of wikis, the truth is that the average user considers something less reliable and professional if it cites a wiki (including Wikipedia) due to their dynamic nature. So I agree entirely with Steve's observation. Jibbajabba 19:15, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why an article which fails no fewer than five content policies, and smashes through three of the Five Pillars has only one person advocating its deletion? Currently, it has only attracted the attentions of a half-dozen editors who evidently don't know original research when it is biting at what they perceive to be their elbows. A quick glance at the offending article shows that each entry is clearly new data measured by the users involved. (I've looked, and hard. Trust me when I say that this data just is not available anywhere else). 10:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
I think that this "blocking" of members who just want to add something to the Wikipedia by blocking their AOL URL is silly
There has to be a better way to pursue this.
Here's the whole text that I had written today to honor St. Valentine's Day:
"Silly Love Songs" is a song written and sung by the British musical genius Paul McCartney, formerly a member of the Beatles.
McCartney had been teased by fellow Beatle and songwriter John Lennon for always writing his "silly love songs". And so, McCartney paid him back by writing and performing the song "Silly Love Songs" which contains the lyric "silly love songs". "Silly Love Songs" became a hugely popular hit worldwide.
That is all. It was foolish to block this, especially since I had just finished with editing typographical/grammar/factual errors in some other articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dale101usa ( talk • contribs) .
Traditionally the ISBN is written out with dashes (such as 0-8160-4059-1), however with so many electronic databases that use ISBNs, from stores like Amazon to library card catalogs) the numbers have been written without the dashes (i.e 0816040591). Is there a standard convention on Wikipedia? - Koweja 23:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on User:Talrias/Task forces proposal. Cheers, Talrias ( t | e | c) 22:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem is not userboxes. The problem is divisiveness. The solution is not JUST to delete a userbox, but to EXPAND the divisive content into a creative expression of one's self:
It seems clear, though few want to describe it this way, that there is a strong sentiment (from Jimbo and others) that there are certain types of content that, when in userspace, has a negative effect on WP, because they lead to divisiveness, disputes, infighting, balkanization, outrage, etc., etc., etc.
People are walking around this core issue, trying to impose administrative structures on content spaces, creating new speedying criteria, etc. All of these are side-steps, workarounds, stop-gaps, or ostrich solutions.
Let's own up to it -- we can probably consensually agree on a number of things that any experienced WP contributor and/or sensible person would realize are detrimental to WP. Instead of allowing everyone (i.e. every admin) define these on their own, leading to a slew of inconsistent treatments, we should define these consensually, as a community.
To that end, I propose Wikipedia:Unacceptable userspace material ( WP:UUSM).
- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
For a long time, there has been a serious mismatch between the Manual of Style guidance and the article implementation of date links. Several editors have been reducing this mismatch in accordance with:
Unfortunately, Ambi and perhaps another admin have applied and threatened blocks if the guidance is implemented. In my janitorial capacity I do a lot of work on a lot of articles but I have been told to leave the guidance unimplemented. A few other editors are also being prevented from implementing the guidance, but are less visible. Thus we now have guidance (i.e. the Manual of Style) and undocumented meta-guidance (constraints from dissenting editors with blocking powers). It really would be better if dissenting editors would work to change guidance rather than target editors that follow the guidance. I care less about the actual guidance than my ability to continue my janitorial work in peace.
The Manual of style is a valuable resource to increase the quality of Wikipedia (consistency etc). It also serves as a reference point for those that have incompatible preferences. It would be a shame if it were not permissible to implement it for fear of being blocked.
We are already several weeks into this unofficial ban on implementation of guidance. My questions are these:
bobblewik 16:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It has happened more than once, that someone has "slipped something in" to the MoS with minimal feedback. It annoys me, too, especially when I use the MoS to bolster an argument only to find that—surprise!—it's been changed out from under me when I wasn't looking. I'd hate this misusage to result in the MoS being considered purely advisory, though, or to have its guidance be considered out of bounds for bot editing. Might I suggest that, instead, we institute a new rule: that if someone intends to use a bot to implement MoS guidance, or to start a collaboration project or JavaScript tool or any other mechanism to bring a large number of pages into compliance quickly, that they be required to notify editors concerned with the rule of their intentions, by posting to the relevant MoS's talk page several days ahead of starting the widespread article edits? This would give people a chance to say, "hey, wait, where did that rule come from?" without entirely stopping constructive bot usage to improve MoS compliance. -- TreyHarris 05:05, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
??? is the question at hand
Unless we know the problem we are trying to solve, we surely have little chance to solve it. Right?
thanks Hmains 06:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd have been much happier if the original poster had written I want to unlink portions of dates with a bot instead of ...is it otherwise permissible to implement guidance.... The latter is bafflegab that strains so hard to cast the debate in terms of Right vs Wrong (with the poster on the side of the angels, or at least authority) that it's almost impossible to discover the subject.
You'll never know where my sympathies might have lain on this issue, since now I'm alienated from the debate. John Reid 06:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
There are a couple of images on Corbis I would like to use for articles, but am reluctant to upload images from such a commercial stock image site. The images in question are pre-1923, as stated in the image information on the website. I do not know if they were in fact published before 1923 though. Corbis claims copyright on the digital version. What has been the general practice or policy with inclusion of such images on Wikipedia? — Eoghanacht talk 14:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
They are black and white studio portraits of George Jay Gould II (aka "Jay Gould" or "Jay Gould, Jr."). The pictures are very obviously professionally done -- but with no photographer referenced. The first seems to have an older non-Corbis copyright tag in the lower corner -- although I cannot read all of it (only the city) at the preview resolution. This first one also has a 1910 date in the Corbis info. Unfortunately I just realized that this first image has a faint "CORBIS" watermark over it (not particulary visible in this particular image, though). The second image does not have a date, but he looks several years younger than he is in another image dated 1925. I have a version of this second file without the watermark. — Eoghanacht talk 16:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for all your comments. If someone would like to take the time to upload and explain the use of Corbis images IH185261 and/or IH179075 for article George Jay Gould II, you are welcome to do so -- otherwise I'll add the task to my to-do list, as I am a little too busy at the moment. Also, I will make a note of this for future reference for other images/articles. — Eoghanacht talk 14:57, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
What about university collections? Such collections often have online search, but then when you read their usage policies, they require a fee or permissions. Is this a crock, as well? For example, The Brown University Archive of African American Sheet Music places this disclaimer on each image page : "This object is available for public use. Individuals interested in reproducing this object in a publication, web site or for any commercial purpose must first receive written permission from the Brown University Library." The images in question are very old, and should easily fall within public domain. I've seen similar disclaimers at other online archives of PD material. (Incidentally, I haven't contacted them, and they might be very nice about letting Wikipedia use their images. I just want some ideas on whether they have the right to make such a demand in the first place.) — BrianSmithson 18:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Salute to All - I request that you please examine and consider Wikipedia:Defense of content, which is a collection of ideas to fight vandalism better. Rama's Arrow 16:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a discussion on Wikipedia talk:Three revert rule over the policy and changes made to the page. Some users believe the spirit of the policy has changed since originally voted on and adopted as policy. Other users feel the the changes made and the practice of the new implementations applied make it substantial enough to hold new changes, yet their was no formal process of consensus beyond that.
Discussion has led to the point where even an admin has threatened a user with a block from Wikipedia if the user reverts a recent change by another admin to the policy, which essentially changes the spirit of the policy by force without discussion. Any attempts to discuss the changes have led to some admins complaint of "wasting time" or "trying to game the system." An attempt to add a tag by two different users on the policy page to advertise {{ActiveDiscussion}} has led to the revert of that tag and the response of "there is no discussion."
One user reported the changes to wikien-l and immediately declared the page an edit war despite attempts to establish discussion.
The 3RR page needs attention from a well rounded group of users to establish a neutral policy. It appears at a first glance that a few admins have joined together and outnumbered the views of the other users, which is clearly not a neutral view and has not demonstrated any attempt to try for a neutral view and update policy by means of a established procedure.
— Dzonatas 14:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone missed it, a poll opened at Wikipedia:Userbox policy poll which, I think, stands a chance at ending the bloodshed. Current tally is 26 yay and 4 nay (not that it is a vote or anything). Broken Segue 04:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Heyo - long story short, I've ended up writing an opinion piece on whether it's a good idea for students to use Wikipedia when doing research. As part of this, I wanted to briefly mention Wikipedia's future plans to make Wikipedia more stable/reliable. I read in the nature.com Britannica/Wikipedia comparison that there were plans to A. have a 'stable article' system, where once an article was deemed accurate/complete enough it would have a frozen 'stable' version and a seperate, 'live version, and B. to have a sort of article review system. I haven't found any other information on A, and am not entirely sure what B means. Could someone direct me to information on future Wikipedia plans, or give me a synopsis? And while I've used Wikipedia for years I've never quite figured out how to navigate the community parts, so this may very well be the wrong place to ask this question - if it is, please direct me to somewhere more appropiate. Thanks! Aerothorn 01:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
This is a policy proposal onn userboxes, developed by Pathoschild from an original by Doc glasgow.
It picked up quite a lot of favorable comments in Pathoschild's userspace and so after discussion I've moved it to WP:UBP (which believe it or not hasn't actually had any concrete proposals on the main page for weeks).
-- Tony Sidaway 05:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Articles about future products cite the company as the main source of verifiable information. The problem occurs when the marketing department of a company purposely distorts what is likely to happen in order to gain a market advantage. Example: it is in Sony's interest to keep potential game purchases believing the PS3 will be released soon in order to hold off purchases of XBox 360. It may not matter that there are many credible rumors out there that there is no chance of a significant release of the product within the company stated time frame because the company is verifiable and the other sources aren't. In my opinion Wikipedia policy of NPOV is in contradition with verifiability in this example, since most people looking at the situation would agree on a different release date then the one the company is publishing.
So what is the solution?
In conclusion if we continue the current course of policy we become pawns for companies marketing departments to add credence to their half truths.
Daniel.Cardenas 02:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Today I took the opportunity of an interview on IRC, organised by The Signpost, to ask Jimbo about userboxes:
I think that puts it pretty plainly. It's not just that he doesn't personally like userboxes, but speaking as the leader of the project he finds the current situation unacceptable. Something must change, one way or the other. -- Tony Sidaway 21:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia project. I tend to think userboxes provoke PoV of the most unhelpful sort. I also think that a user's userboxes can be misinterpreted by other editors, who might make snap judgements about a user's supposed PoV based on her userboxes and edit accordingly. IMHO most userboxes will ultimately be divisive and pull the project away from scholarly principles. That said, I like them when they pertain to practical stuff having directly to do with the wiki interface... OS userboxes, browser, admin, bureaucrat, arbcomm, mediation, country and language userboxes I think may be either neutral or helpful. Wyss 23:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
If a Wiki entry corresponds to a physical location, like a museum, would it be acceptable to add an External Link to the address in Google maps? Seems OK to me, but I don't know about any underlying licenses or other etiquette.
I've added it to the article for the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens. -- GregCovey 19:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Are admins users who must follow the rules that apply to all users? Is adminship an assigned task or a reward? Are admins entitled to conduct themselves in an overbearing manner, lording it over the little people? Is adminship itself an entitlement that must be granted to any user with a high edit count? What is adminship -- or better, what is adminship not?
These points are addressed in the policy proposal Wikipedia:What adminship is not. This cuts off commonly mistaken ideas about adminship in the tradition of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not.
I call for all users to participate in the discussion on talk and help to establish answers to the questions above. John Reid 17:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there a policy or guideline addressing lists of "famous residents" in city/town articles? - Chris 14:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I have created two articles, Berge Østenstad some time ago and Leif Øgaard today. I wonder how they should be sorted into the categories. From looking at the Berge Østenstad history, I see it has been moved backwards and forwards between being sorted under "O" and "Ø" a few times. Note that the letter " Ø" is not just a variation of the letter " O". In the Norwegian language it is the 28th letter of the alphabet, and in a Norwegian encyclopedia you would find articles beginning with "Ø" at the back, only ahead of the articles beginning with " Å". The times I create articles with these letters (Æ, Ø, Å) I try to remember to create redirects with the normal English letters, but sort them using the Norwegian ones.
So my question is should Leif Øgaard and Berge Østenstad be sorted under "O" or "Ø"? Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I was horrified to see that completely untrue things that were said about me in Talk pages were turning up in Google when searching for my name.
The people saying these things know that (1) they are untrue, (2) they are malicious, (3) they can hurt my professional reputation, and (4) they will show up in Google searches. Knowing these four things, and also knowing that some things they are saying will never be allowed in a somewhat more legitimate article, they use disrespectful, disgusting language in Talk pages and one or two User pages.
We all know there is unadulterated slime in Wiki--but why should EVERYTHING ANYBODY WRITES NO MATTER HOW DISGUSTING be available to Google?
Surely, this is a terribly wrong policy and should be changed!-- samivel 23:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
A Norman T.A. Munder article reads : ""[his] life indicates what can be accomplished by individual merit guided by the highest Christian principles ...".
We should assume here in WP that morality or principles are not the results of one and only belief. Comments welcomed. -- DLL 22:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
This concern several types of images that are normally considered specific occurences of {{ fairuse}}, but mostly the various {{ screenshot}} (althought the reasoning can be extended to stuff like {{ bookcover}} and {{ promotional}}).
Does that reasoning hold? Circeus 13:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
And here's what Jimbo Wales said on the official English Wikipedia mailing list. I don't know why, but a lot of otherwise clued up Wikipedians don't subscribe to that, which is a shame because they often end up wondering what's happening when a big change comes along.
(Excerpted)
Full version at http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-February/039853.html
-- Tony Sidaway 06:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Am I right in thinking I'm allowed to copy a properly licensed picture to Commons? The one I have in mind is http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Witvleugduif.jpg, which I'd like to use at White-winged Dove. I'd copy the Dutch description and license (GFDL).
Am I right in thinking I'm allowed to edit a properly licensed picture and save it under another name? I'd like to crop and enlarge http://en.wikipedia.org/wikiImage:Laughing_Falcon.jpg so it will fit better at Laughing Falcon. I hate to do that without the author's permission, but his or her user page and talk page are redlinked.
Are the answers to these questions available somewhere? Are they considered obvious?
— JerryFriedman 18:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
In the last couple of weeks there have been a flurry of changes to article stub templates to remove links to wikiprojects on the dubious basis that the links are link spam. This is being lead by User:Jerzy (sysop), User:Freakofnurture (admin), and User:Carnildo (de-sysop) with justification based on their own comments at Wikipedia talk:Stub. Attempts to restore the templates is turning into revert wars. Garglebutt / (talk) 05:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Changes are currently focussed around this list: User:Jerzy/WikiProj-soliciting_stub_templates. Garglebutt / (talk) 05:50, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The whole point of a WikiProject is for consistency- to make all the articles to conform to a similar structure. By removing the notice from the stub you're undermining this. Do you want California 1, CA-2, CA 3, California Route 4, California Highway 5, California State Route 6, California State Highway 7, CA Highway 8, etc.? Change the wording if you must, but I think that there are more critical things to resist on Wikipedia than so-called "ownership" of articles by WikiProjects. -- Rschen7754 ( talk - contribs) 05:13, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
As it seems, from the discussion above, that at least one of the people removing the links is willing to accept them with a different wording, which is also accepted by those involved with the WikiProject, I strongly urge that everyone work together to change the wordings on the stub templates to follow this form, and neither remove the links nor throw around charges of bad faith, etc. JesseW, the juggling janitor 19:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)