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Dear admins, if I understand correctly there is an edit patrol tag to every new edit, which admins can set to "patrolled". This creates the following problem: a powerful part of wiki editing is that first editor1 has a good idea but words it poorly or leaves out proper sourcing, and (much) later editors 2,3,4 come along and correct this. For a good article, such an improvement trajectory could mean a temporary decline in quality.
By the need for admins to patrol edits, edit1 will now be reverted because the admin is not the editor with the knowledge or ambition to be editor 2,3,4. This slows down the improvement of articles drastically, as well as wasting a lot of editor and admin time in reverting; possibly warring or scaring away new editors.
— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 08:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
On a similar note - may I suggest that all Editors (including Admins) refrain from editing articles on subjects that they know nothing about. For example this one [1] turned a statement which was arguably true into one which was indisputably false. (The Admin later admitted he knows nothing about Formula 1!). This is one example I have seen others. Kelpin 16:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
A proposal has passed at
WP:WAF and
WP:SBS to allow in-universe succession boxes in articles with fictional elements. A template was created,
Template:s-fic, to deal with the in-universe-ness of the succession boxes and a proposal to delete the template failed last week. I am wonder what needs to be done to cancel this policy and allow succession boxes officially on templates, because currently succession boxes such as those of the
Kings of Arnor are not technically allowed in their articles, although they provide an excellent method of navigating the multiple generations of kings and heirs. Similar succession boxes have been removed from certain
Harry Potter and
Star Wars pages, as well as many others. Can anyone tell me how to do this, because I would really like to know. Thank you!
–
Whale
y
land (
Talk •
Contributions ) 00:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about article removal. A company that I work for has an article on Wikipedia that meets the notability guidelines for an article and is a relatively extensive article. I was recently asked, because I use wikipedia frequently, if the company were unhappy with the article, would it be able to have the article removed? If so, how could that be accomplished? 131.230.103.184 04:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your response. On a related issue, if the article in question were rated as GA quality, would removal of any unsourced statement by editors, without pressure from the company, be considered vandalism? Or, would this constitute keeping the article clean? 131.230.103.184 04:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
What regulations does this website have for postings
Sometimes in articles I see this bizarre overcapitalization which I don't understand the rationale behind. But I do see it a lot from U.K. and Australian users, so it's possible this is a British convention I'm not familiar with. You especially see it in regards to public services where they capitalize the type of service, not just the name of the organization. For example, being from the U.S. I'd capitalize "Boston Police" or "Boston Public Schools", but they capitalize things like "the Police" or "the Schools" meaning any police department or any school system. Squidfryerchef 22:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I posted my question over on the Spam project but I'm not sure that was the right place. Radiant! suggested I ask here. I fully understand the reasons, but I'd like to know if there's a specific page/guideline/policy that covers users adding photobucket.com links to articles (most often to the "external links" section, linking to pictures at photobucket of the subject). I know that the uploading, or using of those images is covered under copyvio policy, and I understand the theoretical reason for not allowing them to be in links, but I'd like to be able to cite a specific policy, if asked. Does one exist? Thanks in advance! Ariel♥ Gold 11:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems that arbcom is technically on the list of solutions for dispute resolution. However, it apparently cannot resolve disputes. I propose changing this, because apparently, there are some cases when all other steps in dispute resolution just fail for one reason or another. Of corse, it should only be done only after all other measures in WP:DR have been both tried and failed, and at the agreement of all involved parties to abide by the arbcom decision.-- Sefringle Talk 23:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely with Sefringle., We desperately need some higher court of appeal for resolving content disputes. Otherwise what are dispute resolutions for? Not all disputes can be solved by addressing user conduct. Sometimes, both sides show good etiquette, but simply cannot come to resolution about some highly volatile issue. -- Steve, Sm8900 02:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this. It goes against a fundamental part of Wikipedia which is that content disputes are resolved through discussion and concensus and not by allowing certain editors to make excecutive decisions on content. I recall a comment by Jimbo that even he was scared to edit Nupedia. Also, this seems a bit WP:CREEPy to me. MartinDK 06:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
It is obvious that giving a court the right to decide on content is dangerous and could give more bad results that good ones (censorship - oriented editorial lines) but could not a court state that some choices do not respect wikipedia principles ?
For example, if it is clear that a court cannot decide about the reality or pertinence of an information, cannot it take decisions or give advices concerning the formulation's compliance with fundamental principles ?
Alithien 09:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
No need. If the issue is whether a source is reliable, ask at the reliable sources noticeboard. If the issue is BLP, ask at the BLP noticeboard. If we come up with another type of issue for which clearly correct answers are likely to be forthcoming and that regularly occurs, we'll set up another noticeboard for that type of issue. Those are good, functioning, and non-court like mechanisms that give advice. Article RfCs sometimes succeed - and would more often if more editors paid attention to them.
Where things fail is where there are large factions of strongly opinionated pro/anti editors some of whom are not dedicated to NPOV. Group dynamics make achievement of consensus very difficult until there is an agreement to seek NPOV. Sometimes that requires weeding editors who really don't want an NPOV article out of the discussion. GRBerry 16:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't like it, it's WP:CREEPy, and reminds me of something out of Animal Farm. All editors are equal, but some editors are more equal that others. Not a path we want to start down. -- 146.115.58.152 18:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, we'll give arbcom the power to block editors who they believe are causing the problem, and thus we give them the power to decide who wins the dispute, since they can just block the opposition, yet we won't let them just resolve the dispute by executive order. Seems a bit ironic.-- Sefringle Talk 04:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if this proposal has come up before, but I could not find it in the archives. I find almost all Wiki pages to be filled with links to dates and years, which is absurd. Although the use of links is subjective, it is generally understood that links are made for nouns that are 1. relevant to the topic, or 2. are not considered to be well understood by all readers. For instance: Square = polygon with four sides of equal lengths and angles. A more subjective example is: Euclid was a greek. Who is to say which countries should be linked and which should not be? However, I take issue with links to dates which is totally irrelevant: The Simpsons Movie was released on Wednesday, 2007-07-25. The date has no relevance to The Simpsons. Granted a tiny minority might be interested in what happened on that date. He/she can merely do a simple search. For the rest of the readers, this is unnecessary clutter. If dates were so important, then how about linking everything else, all nouns, all numbers etc.: Jane wanted a proposal of marriage for each of her four daughters who lived under her roof and whom depended on her savings. Isn't this ridiculous? Therefore, I propose that all links to dates, except where relevant should be banned. Examples of relevant links are: 1666 was an ominous year. The Simpsons Movie was released in 2007 (note the link is to 2007 in film). ICEBreaker 16:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
If people wouldn't use NN-NN-YYYY dates, the absurd wikilinking would be completely avoidable. Chalk it up to a poorly-thought out software quirk, and hope it will all be patched up by a bot in the future. ← Ben B4 06:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
This issue is discussed in full at Wikipedia:Date debate. Synopsis: There is the bugzilla:4582 request, which may or may not be implemented soon (anyone know?), to allow preference-formatting without the wikilinks. -- Quiddity 20:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
None of this will effect the date ideologues who think every stand alone year and indeed every other date (regardless of a future lack of 'date preference' need) should be linked because every link to a date field provides 'context' to the article. These ideologues stand prepared to fight every and any change to this current regime by every sort of nasty method and language you can imagine and to keep all date links in place that were ever placed in every article and to add links where they do not already exist. Hmains 04:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Links such as 2007 are not intuitive and should not appear in articles. It should always be obvious which article pressing the link will take you to. violet/riga (t) 07:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
There has been a lot of mention recently on WT:COI of the unwieldy, wordy, and poorly-structured nature of the current COI guideline. It has thus been suggested that some interested parties (not as in a conflict of interest, obviously) get together to find a better way of writing the same guideline in a more usable way. There is no intent here to change the meaning of the guideline, just to make it more usable.
Discussion of the redraft/refactor is invited at Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/redraft, with the current intent to initially 'recruit' participants and discuss the aims of the redraft before putting together a precise plan of action. SamBC( talk) 20:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
this one needs views from a wider audience. Please feel free to go there and comment. Regards, Navou banter 19:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This is something I've always wondered about. Why does Wikipedia allow copyrighted/trademarked logos to be uploaded in SVG format? Part of our policy on non-free content is, and I quote: Low- rather than high-resolution/fidelity is used (especially where the original is of such high resolution/fidelity that it could be used for piracy). This rule includes the copy in the Image: namespace. However, can't SVG images be losslessly scaled to any resolution? That makes it seem like they would be a pirate's best friend. So are we violating our own policy by using SVG-format logos? Just wondering. -- CrazyLegsKC 10:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
At Wikipedia_talk:Conflict_of_interest#SBC.2FDSB_Proposal_.235_-_Can_we_get_consensus_for_this_addition.3F, there is a proposal that would (1) strictly limit the ability of editors with a COI to participate on a talk-page, and (2) greatly expand the role of COI/N to include resolution of content disputes. Please comment. (For the record, I think it is a bad idea.) THF 22:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I am repeating this post here as suggested by a response to my post on Wikipedia:Wikiquette Alerts
Many of the links in the Digital Command Control page look on the face of it to be standard Wikipedia links but actually point to an external Wiki site www.dccwiki.com. Examples are the word Track in the intro and DCC decoder in the first section. This external site itself seems to be some unknown persons attempt to create there own DCC wiki. I'm not experienced enough with Wikipedia to quite know how it has been done, but it seems wrong to me and much of the material on this external site should be in Wikipedia itself. I would welcome opinions on whether this is a breach of Wikipedia principles and what should be done about it. -- St1got 09:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Subcultures and countercultures are definitely important enough to be included in Wikipedia. However, it's virtually impossible to write about them without using original research, or unverifiable information. Subcultures are things that can be only understood through observation.
So, I suggest theses rules be relaxed, or modified when subcultures or countercultures are involved. Skrayl 01:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
In practice, this happens all the time, and eventually gets tagged. Also in practice, for these difficult situations primary sources often do just fine. Not that I agree, but it's what actually happens. ← BenB4 09:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
See also WP:CK. Statements like, "German is the primary language in Germany," that nobody is skeptical of won't be challenged, and won't need a source — should have, often if not usually, but won't need. ← BenB4 08:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The single most poisonous rule on the entire site that allows for mob rule on what a plurality cares about. If someone cares enough to write about it, and it's verifiable, it should have a space. This is the bloody 21st century Library of Alexandria, we shouldn't turn anything away. This article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-notability/Essay says it all. Thanos6 01:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Also keep in mind that to verify information about "Bob" or "Bobbie" you would have to use public records, data bases, etc. Doesn't that constitute "original research" from "primary sources"--something we are not supposed to do? So we would have to change the guidelines not only for notability, but also for verifiability. -- Eriastrum 17:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
When the movie had 300.000 views in its first two weeks it was deemed non-notable, because no RS seemed to take notice. It is now over 1.200.000 views, and I was wondering: is there a number of views which would make the movie notable without it being noted by a generally recognized external authority? I would like to suggest 10.000.000 views, which at the present rate of 50.000 per day will be reached in 200 days, ergo around February 2008. I can put it in my diary then. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 22:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I have requested that the article on State University of New York at Stony Brook be moved to Stony Brook University. Would someone with knowledge in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools) or Wikipedia:Naming conventions in general participate in the discussion at Talk:State University of New York at Stony Brook#Requested move. Thank you. -- Voidvector 04:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
FYI:
This conversation has been moved to
User:Sidatio/Conversations/On list guidelines due to its size. Please comment there. Thanks! 02:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
If you like, please check out: Talk:African Wild Dog. These animals are highly endangered and some of the groups working to save them have suggested that their traditional common name, "African wild dog", has been a part of the problem because it sounds kind of negative and could cause confussion with feral domestic dogs. I proposed that the name of WP's article be changed to African Hunting Dog, since that seems to be the trend. However, most of the sites on the Internet still use African Wild Dog. An Internet search for them gives WP's article at the top of the list. I know that WP's general policy is to follow the most common useage in the culture, however I would like to ask if an exception could be made in this case. Thanks. Steve Dufour 14:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi there, I recently attempted to post some information about the company Booking.com, an internet travel site. It was removed within minutes of me uploading it, and i was wondering why exactly? All of its competitors and similar companies, such as Expedia and Priceline, have pages with their information, and my piece of writing was in no way advertising or promoting any aspect of the company. Thanks, Samorro
I've just discovered that there's a secure sign-in page. That page should be linked to from the regular sign-in page, so that editors logging in from insecure connections don't transmit their user/pass in plain text over easily harvestable wifi. Dan Beale-Cocks 12:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Case in point, these two comments inserted into the entry for the movie "The Good Shepherd".
"This article or section contains a plot summary that is overly long or excessively detailed compared to the rest of the article."
"This is a trivia section. The section could be improved by integrating relevant items into the main text and removing inappropriate items."
I wanted to read a detailed plot summary, the more detailed the better.
If the editor could write a better trivia section, then write it. What are the inappropriate items?
Because Wikipedia's articles are written by a myriad of people, there will be a myriad of styles reflected. Busting on people because they don't reflect a particular editor's personal preferences, is ridiculous.
And before I finish, let me say that actually gathering and typing in the data for an article, is what counts. That is the hard part. Unless an editor finds something factually incorrect, or completely inappropriate, they need to keep their cotten-pickin' hands off.
Which, as you know, seems to be impossible in this world. The urge to change another person's original work in the name of "quality" or "style" or "consistency" ... is simply irresistible.
Some years ago the US Postal Service decided to "right-size" and anyone who wasn't "touching the mail" got canned.
I would humbly suggest the same criteria be used at Wikipedia. If somebody isn't involved in originating articles, they ought to hit the road.
The founding philosophy of Wikipedia encompassed diversity, that seems to get lost quite a bit nowadays.
Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.182.98.237 ( talk • contribs) 04:20:54 2007-08-13 (UTC)
Actually editing articles, changing text, adding information? Fine. That is the essence of Wikipedia. Saying something needs to be changed and then walk away for someone else to do it? No. An editor either gets their hands dirty, and contributes to the article, or they are just so much useless baggage.
So I am not suggesting excluding anyone from making bona fide edits or changes. But a call-out box that criticizes an article ... doesn't add anything to it. I can figure out pretty quickly if the information is plausible or not.
Ultimately, people that use the internet for research come to Wikipedia for the data. Not for the style, page layout, administrivia associated with Wikipedia, or for all of its highly respected minions. And they don't come for the philosophy, goals, voluminous guidance, or infighting. Either the data in Wikipedia is more convenient to use than other web sources, or people move on elsewhere.
I'm glad people like to check facts, but it is ultimately not going to make much difference. Since changing a page is so incredibly easy, Wikipedia is just not going to be a reliable reference source, period. The data is provided "as is". Let the reader beware. If anyone doesn't understand this, I'm sure Wikipedia's lawyers can provide further explanation of this key point.
As the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Quality sounds great, but starts a "death spiral" of ever more critical picky requirements, until nothing new is ever really "good enough".
Wikipedia achieved its enormous success by embracing diversity and encouraging contributors. There is no need to change a successful formula. So forget the article tagging for improvement, call-out boxes, and any other activity that doesn't "touch the data". Focus that energy on glomming onto as many articles and contributors as possible. The best data are often not neat and tidy.
Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.67.6.11 ( talk • contribs) 13:19:01 2007-08-13 (UTC)
I think User:Swatjester's demenor and behavior on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eastgate Systems, especially his invitation to the lot of us to leave and go to Citizendium, are highly inappropriate and unbecoming of an admin and a Wikimedia legal intern. --Pleasantville 13:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I found a website that is hosting fair-use images from Wikipedia. I'm sure it does waste unnecessary server resources, and may be against policy. If it is not yet against some policy, then it definitely should be. The website is http://www.freewebs.com/u2city/, and I found it at User:CRBR, who claims that it the user's own website. – Dream out loud ( talk) 00:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:REFACTOR states that summarizing is only alright if other editors don't object. However, the kind of summarizing mentioned here seems to be the kind that replaces the original text. What I did here (and in previous edits) was to create a summary at the top of the section, and then enclose the full text in {{hidden begin|title=Full Text|bg1=light blue}}/{{hidden end}}, since one of the editors tends to write at length.
So, is this the kind of refactoring that can be objected to? How about if I put it in the section, at top or bottom, without hiding the original text? (Assuming, of course, that I've accurately characterized the original text, which is always debatable -- snark can be found in the darnedest places...) Thanks.-- SarekOfVulcan 15:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place at WP:COI/N (Conflict of Interest Noticeboard). One admin has consented to keeping it in the open there. Two non-admin users have attempted to hide it from general view. I assume that it is fair for me to revert the attempts to hide the material, at least until an administrator is the one who hides it. -- Dude Manchap 16:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I heard that the person who is in charge of the Wikimedia Foundation's finances is the very same person who is in charge of the for-profit Wikia, Inc.'s finances. Is that true? -- Dude Manchap 03:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi again Dude. A few clarifications: you posted to ask whether there's a conflict of interest but haven't supplied much information. Normally requests to this board cite specific activity and evidence. And normally there's an onsite edit history to reference. If this person actually has registered and edits in a way that reflects a conflict of interest, this noticeboard might be able to accomplish something. If the conflict of interest relationship doesn't extend to actual editing activity then I have no direct power and only a little influence. Yet as the founder of Category:Eguor admins I'm particularly open to this type of request. Sure, why not investigate a Wikipedia/Wikia COI? Burden of evidence rests squarely on your shoulders. Go for it if it's particularly important to you. Just expect to shoulder most of the work yourself. I'll check it out, see if there's anything I can do about it, and possibly ask for broader input. That's as fair as I can be. Durova Charge! 15:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Looking over those five links, two of them are specifically legal issues outside my expertise. I have no qualification to evaluate them. Joe Szlilagyi's blog is hardly a reliable source and another on-wikipedia thread was started by someone who's expended his credibility also. The techcrunch.com article holds water, in my opinion. What exactly are you seeking? If the basic complaint regards financial relationships at that level, then the most I could do would be to ask the WMF board to review this matter, and possibly to ask someone to institute nofollow to outgoing links to Wikia. My sysop tools would be useless to address this. Or is more forthcoming? Durova Charge! 17:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) To clarify for newcomers to this thread, we've agreed to refer discussion here from the other locations because this looks like the kind of issue best addressed by community input and (possibly) petition to the WMF board. Durova Charge! 17:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I am sort of confused. Yes, Wikia and Wikipedia share a number of people. Yes, there are some aspects of cozy relationship. That is public information.
If the accusation is that there's a potential COI, then yes, but everyone's aware of it, from the Board to individual admins and editors who bother to pay attention. It's possible we'd all miss some sort of actual conflict or improper behavior, but I haven't seen any.
If you're suggesting such is going on, then please provide us some more specific proof.
If you're worried about it, ask board members if they can let you know what they're doing to review potential conflicts of interest. Georgewilliamherbert 19:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
By this argument, anyone's biography on Wikipedia could claim that they were British Lords, or heirs to the French crown, or recipients of the Nobel Prize, in spite of a lack of evidence to confirm any such wild claim.
Clearly, this is not helpful. I believe that noting that the individual at question is not listed on an official document is not OR, and it is not POV. It is just a plain bland fact. For example, "person X is not listed as an heir to the French Crown on a list published by Y. Person Z does not appear on the list of Nobel Laureates on the official list published at W, although person Z claims to have a Nobel Prize." These statements do not make the leap of inference to say that person Z or person X lied or their information was misrepresented intentionally by someone. That is left to the reader. The inconsistency is noted, and that is all. No speculation as to the reason for this are presented, since that might be OR. For example, stating in an article that the reason for this inconsistency is some given reason, such as:
and so on, is probably verging into OR and might violate the rules of WP:BLP. Do I understand this correctly?-- Filll 14:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Suppose that a RS and V source Y states that "person X is on list Z" but when list Z is examined, person X does not appear on the list. Your contention is that stating that "person X does not appear on list Z" is OR? -- Filll 15:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe this now mute moot, because I have found a source. Thanks. I just wanted to understand this better.--
Filll 15:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely correct. moot not mute!-- Filll 15:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
This is ongoing at
Bernard d'Abrera. The situation is that Bernard d'Abrera's name appears on a petition, "
A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism". His affiliation is to an institution which ceased to be known by this name over 15 years ago, in 1992. The petition was only begun in 2001, so even if d'Abrera was an early signatory of the petition (which is verifiably incorrect), this affiliation would have been incorrect by at least 9 years. The institution is currently known officially as the
Natural History Museum, and d'Abrera currently does not appear on their list of staff. I have written to the
Natural History Museum some weeks ago, and they were able to find no record of d'Abrera at all and sent me to the Museum Archives Department, and I have had no response from them for weeks. I have written to the
Natural History Museum again to try to clear this up subsequently. Today I went through
Internet Archives and found d'Abrera's name listed on the official Museum website in 2001, 2002, 2003 but d'Abrera's appears to have been dropped in early 2004, and did not appear on the official Museum website staff directory in 2004, 2005 or currently. d'Abrera appears to have signed the petition by 2006, but was not present on the original 2001 version of the petition. Out of date affiliations and wrong affiliations are very common on this petition, and we have
WP:RS and
WP:V sources that state this.--
Filll 16:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I claim d'Abrera is on the Dissent list. I claim d'Abrera's affiliation on the Dissent list is incorrect, and refers to an organization that changed names at least 9 years before the Dissent list was created. I claim that d'Abrera was listed on the Natural History Museum website in 2001, 2002 and 2003. I claim that d'Abrera is not listed on the Natural History Museum website staff list in 2004, 2005, 2006 and is not currently listed on the Natural History Museum staff list. I claim that a WP:V and WP:RS source states that this kind of misleading affiliation is common on the Dissent list. Others want to remove reference to d'Abrera appearing on the list, d'Abrera having an incorrect affiliation, d'Abrera not currently appearing on the Natural History Museum staff list and the citation to the source stating that this kind of misleading affiliation is common on the Dissent list. Is that clearer?-- Filll 18:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
In what way am I engaging in original research? Perhaps our definitions of original research are different. I believe that looking up a source, and reporting what the source says, is not original research. Is stating that someone appears on a published list or not original research? I do not believe it is, and if it is, then a large fraction of Wikipedia would have to be removed.-- Filll 19:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
It is not at all clear that d'Abrera lied about his credentials. We do not know that he was the person who listed his credentials in that way. We just know that those credentials are inaccurate, or at least that three sources state two different things.-- Filll 19:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
d'Abrera's appearance on this petition is actually a major part of his notability. And it is not just a list, but a petition which people willingly sign, as opposed to other creationist lists. d'Abrera has made vigorous efforts to promote creationism and attack evolution. Other than that, he is just a butterfly photographer without a science degree or a graduate degree, and is not particularly notable or noteworthy, as near as I can tell.-- Filll 19:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree vehemently. That is like saying an article about George W. Bush should not mention that he is President of the United States, or an article about Bill Gates should not mention that he is Chairman of Microsoft. You can try to maintain that, but I think you will have trouble getting many to agree with you.-- Filll 20:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I would agree completely, which is why I never claimed that d'Abrera had lied about his affiliation or whatever. And I do not claim this now. We do not know the reason for the confusion in affiliation (error, typo, confusion, mistake, economical with the facts, etc). All we know is that it exists. Period.-- Filll 21:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
What would people think for a "speedy delete" criteria for a stub type that is a complete or implied overlap of an existing stub type (type=template+category). A recent example is {{
US-bio-stub}}
and {{
American-biography-stub}}
, or {{
AFL-bio-1980s-stub}}
and {{
Afl-bio-1980s-stub}}
. Proposing deletion the old-fashioned way is tedious, but this kind of thing happens often. ~
JohnnyMrNinja 06:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
We cannot agree on which namespace some of these pages belong in: {{ Contents pages (header bar)}}:
That's the very condensed version, with many tangential issues. Previous discussions abound, most recently here, here, here, and here.
Please advise. -- Quiddity 17:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I guess I'm a bit of deletionist myself, but I've had not much luck getting articles deleted for failure to cite evidence of notability (see, for example, Paul Ashley Chase and Maria Hart, clear non-notable COI family member articles, Bed Head, and square root of 5, which may have picked up a usable citation in the process, but look at the comments). It seems that if enough people assert that it's important or interesting, the just about any article can survive, without citing a single independent reliable source on the subject (sometimes with no references at all, in fact); sadly, the keep votes in an AfD do seem to get counted, even when they make no attempt to address how the article relates to notability guidelines. I think that if this is the way it goes, we might as well flush the policy and take all comers. Dicklyon 00:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
And now I'm being told by User:Newyorkbrad that my placing of notability|Numbers tags on certain unreferenced articles such as 193 (number) is "disruptive". What's up with that? Dicklyon 01:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Whenever you find yourself getting upset at AfD debates, take a wander through Special:Newpages and I guarantee it will change your attitude. ← BenB4 15:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't really understand the complaint. Articles get deleted all the time on the basis of notability. The ones you're upset about seem to be, at worst, marginal. - Chunky Rice 16:55, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
My personal pet peeve was Meow Wars. No secondary sources, no hope of any, but it was basically kept on WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IREMEMBERITMYSELF. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I live in Logan County, Ohio, a rural area of farms and little villages. I'd like to add small sections about the government of the villages in my county to the village articles, but villages around here don't generally have websites or other print sources for their government. My local phone book has a section wherein the members of the respective village councils and other governmental people are listed. Is a phone book a reliable source in this way, since I'm not using it as a list of people, but as a governmental directory? Nyttend 12:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to draw the attention of the broader Wikipedia community to a policy discussion at Wikipedia talk:No original research, having to do with the use of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. The dispute concerns an edit made in the summer of 2006 which says in bold: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources", and indicates that primary sources should be rarely used. This is a policy statement, not a guideline, and the issue reflects countless Wikipedia articles that use citations to primary sources such as journal articles, poetry, novels, song lyrics, and historical documents. I personally do not think that this accurately reflects the consensus of the Wikipedia community, since primary sources are in wide use. Moreover, for some articles, such as current events articles, the primary sources are all we have to go on, because there hasn't been time for synthesis and commentary by third parties. Citations to tertiary sources, as well, such as treatises and textbooks, should be welcome in Wikipedia. The concerns about improperly synthesizing source material apply to apply to any kind of source, not just primary sources, and the policy should reflect that. COGDEN 21:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I asked this on Wikipedia talk:Lead section but received no answer. On an article like Interstate 15 in Arizona, bolding the title but not linking within it results in ridiculous sentences like "Interstate 15 in Arizona is the portion of Interstate 15 in the U.S. state of Arizona." Is the proper solution to bold nothing? -- NE2 00:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It was recently pointed out to me that {{ WP nav pages (header bar)}} is rather lengthy. It has a directory, and a quick directory, and a maintenance directory, and a shortcut directory, all of which essentially cover the same material in a slightly different order or layout. Do people actually use all of these? Perhaps we could make WP more friendly to novice users by combining these into one unified/simplified directory? >Radiant< 12:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be no firm rules against people discourteously deleting content.
This is what often leads to Edit Wars which then lead to disputes which need to be resolved by higher authority.
There are some guidelines about how to courteously delete content. For some reason it is not listed in Wikipedia:Etiquette, but instead it is listed in Wikipedia:Avoiding_common_mistakes#Deleting...
At the very least, this information about 'courtesy and deleting' should be moved to the official Etiquette page. But I think there should be firm rules about it, like there are on 3RR. It would help prevent 3RR and other similar situations.
Before deleting content that others have written, it should be compulsory for people to state a clear reason in the edit window. Why are there no rules about this? It should also be compulsory for people to initiate a discussion when deleting content.
I can see there is lots of discourteous deletions going on in political pages. Usually by editors who want to maintain a political slant on the existing article. Sometimes, there are armies of editors waiting to delete properly referenced content the second it is added. Those deleting often leave no reasonable explanation in the edit window, and don't want to consult or engage in dialog.
What it achieves, is that the process of adding content to pages or making changes is slowed down to a crawl. When the deleting editor does not respond to negotiation or mediation, it leaves formal arbitration as the only answer. But for every sentence?
I think some firm rules would help the situation. Firm rules about leaving a proper description in the edit window. Firm rules about initiating a discussion when deleting. It should be official etiquette to obey common courtesy when deleting. What do you think? Lester2 04:15, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I changed Image:SNES logo.svg from a public domain license to a non-free logo license. As soon as I did so, the user reverted the edit and put it back in public domain, and insisted that it is in public domain. I don't want to start and edit war here, so wanted to resolve the dispute otherwise. He left a message on my talk page, saying that it is in public domain because one other editor said so at the image's proposed deletion entry. It cannot be in public domain because of the folllowing:
– Dream out loud ( talk) 00:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Typefaces (fonts) are definitely not eligible for copyright in the U.S., but are considered copyrightable in the EU (and just about everywhere else). It is very rare for a party to claim copyright on a logo. Some logos ( e.g.) are almost certainly ineligible for copyright, since they contain nothing but a couple of words in a typeface. De minimis non curat lex. Others are almost certainly eligible for copyright, like any other detailed image ( e.g.) As Wikidemo says, it's better to err on the side of caution, but let's not get carried away: these sorts of images are never going to be eligible for copyright. – Quadell ( talk) ( random) 12:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
User:THF has become an issue, specifically, that he is a well-known individual off of Wikipedia. Under his previous user name (one need only go the very first cache of his current User page), which was his real name, he introduced himself on his User page using his real name and also that of his employer. He also wrote an attack piece on Michael Moore here, using his real name, which he wanted inserted into 25 articles on Wikipedia. For these actions I and another editor raised WP:COIN issues against THF, both of which failed. During those COINs, THF chucked his Real Name User Name for the one he currently has, which are his real initials, THF. Now he wants the bell unrung, and despite all this prior history of introducing himself, his employer, his real name User name, and trying to put work he authored and was published by his employer, he wants nobody on Wikipedia to make any mention of his formerly-used Real Name User Name or his real name. This has caused a massive amount of bad feelings and disruption. First, Michael Moore's website, upon learning who THF was, and how often he edits all of Moore's articles on Wikipedia, made a note of it on his website. There was not attack, and I have a screen shot saved. It was factual: this is who THF is, and this is what he is doing. However, there was a perceived invitation to harass THF by including links to edit his User page (it's possible they thought this was where we leave messages to each other) and also an invitation to edit the Sicko page (nothing wrong with that). However, THF, under the banner of WP:HARASS, led a fight to have MichaelMoore.com removed from Wikipedia. Why? Because Moore revealed who THF is, and Moore was inviting harassment with the link to edit his User page. This caused a massive argument on AN/I, which continues in various forms to this day. Edit wars over removing Moore's website from his encyclopedia articles ensued. Consensus is divided whether this falls under WP:NPA or not. At the least, we asked Moore to remove the links to the edit pages, which he did. Now what is argued is that the very mention of THF's real-life identity, which remains on that page, qualifies MichaelMoore.com as an attack site under WP:NPA, even though there is no "attack" as that word is defined, but a factual statement. The fall-back argument is now that THF has elected to unring the bell he run of disclosing his identity, Moore's site is in violation of WP:HARASS. So, many people want removed from Wikipedia a link to one of the most influential Americans out there because THF wants the bell of his identity unrung, and we are going to "punish" Moore for disclosing who THF is. One would thing that if mattered that much at this point, THF would switch to another User name. Instead, for the wishes of THF and his second thoughts, we are going to start de-linking pertinent websites and remove information from the encyclopedia we are building. My RfC: I would like to have an RfC to find out how feasible it is for a notable person on the outside who did all of the above (introduce himself, edit under his real name, reveal his employer, then switch to a User name with his real initials, and effort to have work he wrote under his real name inserted into multiple articles) to not have that persons name ever used on Wikipedia, to the length of removing content because an outside relevant website points out a statement of fact: This is who this person is, and they edit my Wikipedia pages. Comment on unring the bell and its feasibility? --David Shankbone 18:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I've already explained why I'm not changing my username a second time. WP:HARASS#Posting of personal information explicitly permits a user to change their username without having their real name discussed, even if the personal information is available in a cache. My complaint is that David Shankbone is making false COI accusations against me on yet a seventh different page after being rejected in the first six forums he shopped at, and this is a real WP:STALK problem that I would like an administrator to deal with. If he wishes to discuss changing the WP:HARASS rule without personalizing it with false characterizations of my behavior, he is welcome to do so. Again, I note that I was threatened with an indefinite block when I inadvertently revealed User:Jance's real name in the identical situation where she changed her username, and multiple editors have been doing it deliberately multiple times without so much as a warning. I'd merely like some even enforcement of the rules. THF 18:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:HARASS clearly applies to the actions of DavidShankBone, and heres why. I've only ever known user THF under that name, i did not know he had changed his user name until editors started to publish it and other personal details in violation of WP:HARASS that simple. (Hypnosadist) 19:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Has it occurred to anyone that branding Michael Moore's official website an "attack site" and purging its links from the English Wikipedia will only draw additional attention to the matter (and to THF's identity) and possibly spark a new controversy? It isn't as though it will actually prevent anyone from finding Moore's website, so what's the point? — David Levy 19:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Enough. Moore's behavior does not make his site an attack site for these purposes. THF does have a possible conflict but as far as I can tell all his edits have been NPOV or close to NPOV. He should of course be careful to continue abiding by NPOV and pay particular attention to the WP:COI guideline. JoshuaZ 21:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The applicable policy and section here is WP:NPA#External links, which has been modified in recent days. - Crockspot 21:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
so is any of you gonna cum great me? i've bin on here for a few weeks and made lots of editz. Haute Fuzze 05:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I dare say there's an amazingly obvious and good reason, but why isn't there automatic signing of comments on talk pages and reference desks etc? DuncanHill 01:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Hagermanbot used to take care of this on certain pages when people forgot. Hagerman left the project in april and the bot stopped running about a month later. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 02:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Conspiracy theory titles is a proposal to redirect all articles containing the phrase "Conspiracy Theory" in their titles. The basic premis is that the phrase is, by its nature, POV and non-neutral. This has been proposed before... (see Wikipedia:Conspiracy theory) by the same editor and was rejected. Please comment at Wikipedia talk:Conspiracy theory titles. Blueboar 18:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I didn't know where else to post this, but I thought this should get some attention: a film director is suing imdb.com (and its parent company, amazon.com) in New York state court because her imdb listing incorrectly credited her with directing pornographic films. [7] My understanding of how imdb works is that all of the information is user submitted, but it differs from Wikipedia in that it is reviewed by paid employees before it is publicly posted. Still, it should be interesting to see the plaintiff's arguments and how this is resolved. I have yet to find a copy of the complaint online. Postdlf 15:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed in the past year or so a sudden spike in the use of NOR/SYNT in wikilawyering. The claims about SYNT which I did not agree with generally had to do with some tangent in the article that one editor didn't feel was relevant, or to remove cruft, so they'd use a strained intepretation of SYNT to argue against it.
To me, SYNT means you infer/deduce new facts and put them in the article. Not because you might lead the reader to infer new facts, not because you put a couple of sentences close together in a novel way, it's when you write down the new inference.
Is it possible that the proposed relevance guideline could cut down on this overuse of SYNT? Squidfryerchef 14:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Relevance of content and offer what comments you can.-- Father Goose 08:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Consensus has proved very difficult to reach on "not needed" and is sorely needed. In general, the argument against any such policy is that relevance is determined both through the give-and-take between editors and through the constraints applied by all the other rules. As a consequence, when one tries to write a Relevance guideline it either: states the obvious, states what is already a rule somewhere else, states what belongs as a rule somewhere else, or is so vague a Mack truck could drive through. Although I prefer "not needed", I would much prefer putting the "not needed" issue to rest either way. — WikiLen 16:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
All editors working on this are focused on what to have at Relevance. The current and historical work: - ( WikiLen)
Currently, a bizarre compromise is in effect: links to "Relevance" go to Relevance and shortcuts to "Relevance", such as WP:RELEVANCE redirect to Relevance of content. There must be a way to untangle this zoo of issues... editors please help, especially those with policy experience! — WikiLen 16:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a new guideline:
IP editors should be blocked for 2 weeks each time 10 different users suggest that they create an account, a user may suggest account creation any number of times as long as they suggest once per "10 suggest cycle." An IP editor must have 1 month to try out Wikipedia before being blocked for this reason, after the IP editor's block has expired the editor must have an additional 2 weeks to continue to try out Wikipedia before they can be blocked again for this reason. When an IP editor has not made any contributions for 1 month and then makes another contribution an editor with blocking powers cannot block the editor again for this reason for 1 month then 2 weeks each "10 suggest cycle" again.
What do you think? Tcrow777 talk 06:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I can say that I am tired of the "Do you want me to register? Sorry, not interested. A string of numbers is all I need:}" attitude that many IP editors have, this guideline will not efect dynamic IPs (we have ways of telling the difference). Tcrow777 talk 07:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
"...luverlee, "IP's Should Be Banned!", that, the Norwegien Blue!"(With apologies to Monty & Friends) LessHeard vanU 12:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Why do IP editors refuse to get an account so many times when it is suggested? Oh, by the way, I changed my sig, even when there was nothing wrong with it. Tcrow777 ( talk) 19:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand the point of this guideline. What's to be gained? - Chunky Rice 22:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Those stubborn IP editors get an account. They will not be banned, they will just get a 2 week block. Tcrow777 talk 22:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
IP editors who refuse to register are harmful to Wikipedia, Jimbo Wales said himself in response to a complaint by an IP editor:
"Sorry, but anon ip numbers do not have the same civil rights as logged in members of the community. If you want to be a good editor, get an account, make good edits. I really don't care about your complaint as currently stated." -- Jimbo Wales
Tcrow777 talk 23:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Prove it! Why are you against IP editors registering? Tcrow777 talk 23:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Once upon a time I was a registered user ( User:Orkadian). Then User:Mais oui! took a dislike to my contributions because they disagreed with his point of view and so he started a) reverting my every edit and then b) constantly accused me of being a sock puppet of another user he disliked until I got unjustly banned. As a registered user it is all to easy to become prey to POV stalkers like User:Mais oui! (The unjustly blocked User:Orkadian)
See WP:PERRENIAL#Prohibit anonymous users from editing. ← BenB4 11:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Considering that "Trivia" or "Pop culture" sections keep popping up like mushrooms after a rainstorm, I would like to know if it would ever be acceptable for an editor to unilaterally remove one of these sections from an article. The consensus seems to be that Trivia is "bad" but deleting a giant section of an article might not be looked upon very kindly, either. So, for example, if I was to remove the "in Popular culture" section from the article Mr. T, would I be violating any kind of policy (assuming I announced my intentions beforehand on the talk page)? GhostPirate 06:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
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Dear admins, if I understand correctly there is an edit patrol tag to every new edit, which admins can set to "patrolled". This creates the following problem: a powerful part of wiki editing is that first editor1 has a good idea but words it poorly or leaves out proper sourcing, and (much) later editors 2,3,4 come along and correct this. For a good article, such an improvement trajectory could mean a temporary decline in quality.
By the need for admins to patrol edits, edit1 will now be reverted because the admin is not the editor with the knowledge or ambition to be editor 2,3,4. This slows down the improvement of articles drastically, as well as wasting a lot of editor and admin time in reverting; possibly warring or scaring away new editors.
— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 08:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
On a similar note - may I suggest that all Editors (including Admins) refrain from editing articles on subjects that they know nothing about. For example this one [1] turned a statement which was arguably true into one which was indisputably false. (The Admin later admitted he knows nothing about Formula 1!). This is one example I have seen others. Kelpin 16:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
A proposal has passed at
WP:WAF and
WP:SBS to allow in-universe succession boxes in articles with fictional elements. A template was created,
Template:s-fic, to deal with the in-universe-ness of the succession boxes and a proposal to delete the template failed last week. I am wonder what needs to be done to cancel this policy and allow succession boxes officially on templates, because currently succession boxes such as those of the
Kings of Arnor are not technically allowed in their articles, although they provide an excellent method of navigating the multiple generations of kings and heirs. Similar succession boxes have been removed from certain
Harry Potter and
Star Wars pages, as well as many others. Can anyone tell me how to do this, because I would really like to know. Thank you!
–
Whale
y
land (
Talk •
Contributions ) 00:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a question about article removal. A company that I work for has an article on Wikipedia that meets the notability guidelines for an article and is a relatively extensive article. I was recently asked, because I use wikipedia frequently, if the company were unhappy with the article, would it be able to have the article removed? If so, how could that be accomplished? 131.230.103.184 04:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your response. On a related issue, if the article in question were rated as GA quality, would removal of any unsourced statement by editors, without pressure from the company, be considered vandalism? Or, would this constitute keeping the article clean? 131.230.103.184 04:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
What regulations does this website have for postings
Sometimes in articles I see this bizarre overcapitalization which I don't understand the rationale behind. But I do see it a lot from U.K. and Australian users, so it's possible this is a British convention I'm not familiar with. You especially see it in regards to public services where they capitalize the type of service, not just the name of the organization. For example, being from the U.S. I'd capitalize "Boston Police" or "Boston Public Schools", but they capitalize things like "the Police" or "the Schools" meaning any police department or any school system. Squidfryerchef 22:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I posted my question over on the Spam project but I'm not sure that was the right place. Radiant! suggested I ask here. I fully understand the reasons, but I'd like to know if there's a specific page/guideline/policy that covers users adding photobucket.com links to articles (most often to the "external links" section, linking to pictures at photobucket of the subject). I know that the uploading, or using of those images is covered under copyvio policy, and I understand the theoretical reason for not allowing them to be in links, but I'd like to be able to cite a specific policy, if asked. Does one exist? Thanks in advance! Ariel♥ Gold 11:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems that arbcom is technically on the list of solutions for dispute resolution. However, it apparently cannot resolve disputes. I propose changing this, because apparently, there are some cases when all other steps in dispute resolution just fail for one reason or another. Of corse, it should only be done only after all other measures in WP:DR have been both tried and failed, and at the agreement of all involved parties to abide by the arbcom decision.-- Sefringle Talk 23:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely with Sefringle., We desperately need some higher court of appeal for resolving content disputes. Otherwise what are dispute resolutions for? Not all disputes can be solved by addressing user conduct. Sometimes, both sides show good etiquette, but simply cannot come to resolution about some highly volatile issue. -- Steve, Sm8900 02:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this. It goes against a fundamental part of Wikipedia which is that content disputes are resolved through discussion and concensus and not by allowing certain editors to make excecutive decisions on content. I recall a comment by Jimbo that even he was scared to edit Nupedia. Also, this seems a bit WP:CREEPy to me. MartinDK 06:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
It is obvious that giving a court the right to decide on content is dangerous and could give more bad results that good ones (censorship - oriented editorial lines) but could not a court state that some choices do not respect wikipedia principles ?
For example, if it is clear that a court cannot decide about the reality or pertinence of an information, cannot it take decisions or give advices concerning the formulation's compliance with fundamental principles ?
Alithien 09:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
No need. If the issue is whether a source is reliable, ask at the reliable sources noticeboard. If the issue is BLP, ask at the BLP noticeboard. If we come up with another type of issue for which clearly correct answers are likely to be forthcoming and that regularly occurs, we'll set up another noticeboard for that type of issue. Those are good, functioning, and non-court like mechanisms that give advice. Article RfCs sometimes succeed - and would more often if more editors paid attention to them.
Where things fail is where there are large factions of strongly opinionated pro/anti editors some of whom are not dedicated to NPOV. Group dynamics make achievement of consensus very difficult until there is an agreement to seek NPOV. Sometimes that requires weeding editors who really don't want an NPOV article out of the discussion. GRBerry 16:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't like it, it's WP:CREEPy, and reminds me of something out of Animal Farm. All editors are equal, but some editors are more equal that others. Not a path we want to start down. -- 146.115.58.152 18:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, we'll give arbcom the power to block editors who they believe are causing the problem, and thus we give them the power to decide who wins the dispute, since they can just block the opposition, yet we won't let them just resolve the dispute by executive order. Seems a bit ironic.-- Sefringle Talk 04:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if this proposal has come up before, but I could not find it in the archives. I find almost all Wiki pages to be filled with links to dates and years, which is absurd. Although the use of links is subjective, it is generally understood that links are made for nouns that are 1. relevant to the topic, or 2. are not considered to be well understood by all readers. For instance: Square = polygon with four sides of equal lengths and angles. A more subjective example is: Euclid was a greek. Who is to say which countries should be linked and which should not be? However, I take issue with links to dates which is totally irrelevant: The Simpsons Movie was released on Wednesday, 2007-07-25. The date has no relevance to The Simpsons. Granted a tiny minority might be interested in what happened on that date. He/she can merely do a simple search. For the rest of the readers, this is unnecessary clutter. If dates were so important, then how about linking everything else, all nouns, all numbers etc.: Jane wanted a proposal of marriage for each of her four daughters who lived under her roof and whom depended on her savings. Isn't this ridiculous? Therefore, I propose that all links to dates, except where relevant should be banned. Examples of relevant links are: 1666 was an ominous year. The Simpsons Movie was released in 2007 (note the link is to 2007 in film). ICEBreaker 16:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
If people wouldn't use NN-NN-YYYY dates, the absurd wikilinking would be completely avoidable. Chalk it up to a poorly-thought out software quirk, and hope it will all be patched up by a bot in the future. ← Ben B4 06:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
This issue is discussed in full at Wikipedia:Date debate. Synopsis: There is the bugzilla:4582 request, which may or may not be implemented soon (anyone know?), to allow preference-formatting without the wikilinks. -- Quiddity 20:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
None of this will effect the date ideologues who think every stand alone year and indeed every other date (regardless of a future lack of 'date preference' need) should be linked because every link to a date field provides 'context' to the article. These ideologues stand prepared to fight every and any change to this current regime by every sort of nasty method and language you can imagine and to keep all date links in place that were ever placed in every article and to add links where they do not already exist. Hmains 04:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Links such as 2007 are not intuitive and should not appear in articles. It should always be obvious which article pressing the link will take you to. violet/riga (t) 07:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
There has been a lot of mention recently on WT:COI of the unwieldy, wordy, and poorly-structured nature of the current COI guideline. It has thus been suggested that some interested parties (not as in a conflict of interest, obviously) get together to find a better way of writing the same guideline in a more usable way. There is no intent here to change the meaning of the guideline, just to make it more usable.
Discussion of the redraft/refactor is invited at Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/redraft, with the current intent to initially 'recruit' participants and discuss the aims of the redraft before putting together a precise plan of action. SamBC( talk) 20:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
this one needs views from a wider audience. Please feel free to go there and comment. Regards, Navou banter 19:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This is something I've always wondered about. Why does Wikipedia allow copyrighted/trademarked logos to be uploaded in SVG format? Part of our policy on non-free content is, and I quote: Low- rather than high-resolution/fidelity is used (especially where the original is of such high resolution/fidelity that it could be used for piracy). This rule includes the copy in the Image: namespace. However, can't SVG images be losslessly scaled to any resolution? That makes it seem like they would be a pirate's best friend. So are we violating our own policy by using SVG-format logos? Just wondering. -- CrazyLegsKC 10:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
At Wikipedia_talk:Conflict_of_interest#SBC.2FDSB_Proposal_.235_-_Can_we_get_consensus_for_this_addition.3F, there is a proposal that would (1) strictly limit the ability of editors with a COI to participate on a talk-page, and (2) greatly expand the role of COI/N to include resolution of content disputes. Please comment. (For the record, I think it is a bad idea.) THF 22:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I am repeating this post here as suggested by a response to my post on Wikipedia:Wikiquette Alerts
Many of the links in the Digital Command Control page look on the face of it to be standard Wikipedia links but actually point to an external Wiki site www.dccwiki.com. Examples are the word Track in the intro and DCC decoder in the first section. This external site itself seems to be some unknown persons attempt to create there own DCC wiki. I'm not experienced enough with Wikipedia to quite know how it has been done, but it seems wrong to me and much of the material on this external site should be in Wikipedia itself. I would welcome opinions on whether this is a breach of Wikipedia principles and what should be done about it. -- St1got 09:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Subcultures and countercultures are definitely important enough to be included in Wikipedia. However, it's virtually impossible to write about them without using original research, or unverifiable information. Subcultures are things that can be only understood through observation.
So, I suggest theses rules be relaxed, or modified when subcultures or countercultures are involved. Skrayl 01:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
In practice, this happens all the time, and eventually gets tagged. Also in practice, for these difficult situations primary sources often do just fine. Not that I agree, but it's what actually happens. ← BenB4 09:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
See also WP:CK. Statements like, "German is the primary language in Germany," that nobody is skeptical of won't be challenged, and won't need a source — should have, often if not usually, but won't need. ← BenB4 08:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The single most poisonous rule on the entire site that allows for mob rule on what a plurality cares about. If someone cares enough to write about it, and it's verifiable, it should have a space. This is the bloody 21st century Library of Alexandria, we shouldn't turn anything away. This article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-notability/Essay says it all. Thanos6 01:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Also keep in mind that to verify information about "Bob" or "Bobbie" you would have to use public records, data bases, etc. Doesn't that constitute "original research" from "primary sources"--something we are not supposed to do? So we would have to change the guidelines not only for notability, but also for verifiability. -- Eriastrum 17:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
When the movie had 300.000 views in its first two weeks it was deemed non-notable, because no RS seemed to take notice. It is now over 1.200.000 views, and I was wondering: is there a number of views which would make the movie notable without it being noted by a generally recognized external authority? I would like to suggest 10.000.000 views, which at the present rate of 50.000 per day will be reached in 200 days, ergo around February 2008. I can put it in my diary then. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 22:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I have requested that the article on State University of New York at Stony Brook be moved to Stony Brook University. Would someone with knowledge in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools) or Wikipedia:Naming conventions in general participate in the discussion at Talk:State University of New York at Stony Brook#Requested move. Thank you. -- Voidvector 04:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
FYI:
This conversation has been moved to
User:Sidatio/Conversations/On list guidelines due to its size. Please comment there. Thanks! 02:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
If you like, please check out: Talk:African Wild Dog. These animals are highly endangered and some of the groups working to save them have suggested that their traditional common name, "African wild dog", has been a part of the problem because it sounds kind of negative and could cause confussion with feral domestic dogs. I proposed that the name of WP's article be changed to African Hunting Dog, since that seems to be the trend. However, most of the sites on the Internet still use African Wild Dog. An Internet search for them gives WP's article at the top of the list. I know that WP's general policy is to follow the most common useage in the culture, however I would like to ask if an exception could be made in this case. Thanks. Steve Dufour 14:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi there, I recently attempted to post some information about the company Booking.com, an internet travel site. It was removed within minutes of me uploading it, and i was wondering why exactly? All of its competitors and similar companies, such as Expedia and Priceline, have pages with their information, and my piece of writing was in no way advertising or promoting any aspect of the company. Thanks, Samorro
I've just discovered that there's a secure sign-in page. That page should be linked to from the regular sign-in page, so that editors logging in from insecure connections don't transmit their user/pass in plain text over easily harvestable wifi. Dan Beale-Cocks 12:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Case in point, these two comments inserted into the entry for the movie "The Good Shepherd".
"This article or section contains a plot summary that is overly long or excessively detailed compared to the rest of the article."
"This is a trivia section. The section could be improved by integrating relevant items into the main text and removing inappropriate items."
I wanted to read a detailed plot summary, the more detailed the better.
If the editor could write a better trivia section, then write it. What are the inappropriate items?
Because Wikipedia's articles are written by a myriad of people, there will be a myriad of styles reflected. Busting on people because they don't reflect a particular editor's personal preferences, is ridiculous.
And before I finish, let me say that actually gathering and typing in the data for an article, is what counts. That is the hard part. Unless an editor finds something factually incorrect, or completely inappropriate, they need to keep their cotten-pickin' hands off.
Which, as you know, seems to be impossible in this world. The urge to change another person's original work in the name of "quality" or "style" or "consistency" ... is simply irresistible.
Some years ago the US Postal Service decided to "right-size" and anyone who wasn't "touching the mail" got canned.
I would humbly suggest the same criteria be used at Wikipedia. If somebody isn't involved in originating articles, they ought to hit the road.
The founding philosophy of Wikipedia encompassed diversity, that seems to get lost quite a bit nowadays.
Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.182.98.237 ( talk • contribs) 04:20:54 2007-08-13 (UTC)
Actually editing articles, changing text, adding information? Fine. That is the essence of Wikipedia. Saying something needs to be changed and then walk away for someone else to do it? No. An editor either gets their hands dirty, and contributes to the article, or they are just so much useless baggage.
So I am not suggesting excluding anyone from making bona fide edits or changes. But a call-out box that criticizes an article ... doesn't add anything to it. I can figure out pretty quickly if the information is plausible or not.
Ultimately, people that use the internet for research come to Wikipedia for the data. Not for the style, page layout, administrivia associated with Wikipedia, or for all of its highly respected minions. And they don't come for the philosophy, goals, voluminous guidance, or infighting. Either the data in Wikipedia is more convenient to use than other web sources, or people move on elsewhere.
I'm glad people like to check facts, but it is ultimately not going to make much difference. Since changing a page is so incredibly easy, Wikipedia is just not going to be a reliable reference source, period. The data is provided "as is". Let the reader beware. If anyone doesn't understand this, I'm sure Wikipedia's lawyers can provide further explanation of this key point.
As the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Quality sounds great, but starts a "death spiral" of ever more critical picky requirements, until nothing new is ever really "good enough".
Wikipedia achieved its enormous success by embracing diversity and encouraging contributors. There is no need to change a successful formula. So forget the article tagging for improvement, call-out boxes, and any other activity that doesn't "touch the data". Focus that energy on glomming onto as many articles and contributors as possible. The best data are often not neat and tidy.
Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.67.6.11 ( talk • contribs) 13:19:01 2007-08-13 (UTC)
I think User:Swatjester's demenor and behavior on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eastgate Systems, especially his invitation to the lot of us to leave and go to Citizendium, are highly inappropriate and unbecoming of an admin and a Wikimedia legal intern. --Pleasantville 13:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I found a website that is hosting fair-use images from Wikipedia. I'm sure it does waste unnecessary server resources, and may be against policy. If it is not yet against some policy, then it definitely should be. The website is http://www.freewebs.com/u2city/, and I found it at User:CRBR, who claims that it the user's own website. – Dream out loud ( talk) 00:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:REFACTOR states that summarizing is only alright if other editors don't object. However, the kind of summarizing mentioned here seems to be the kind that replaces the original text. What I did here (and in previous edits) was to create a summary at the top of the section, and then enclose the full text in {{hidden begin|title=Full Text|bg1=light blue}}/{{hidden end}}, since one of the editors tends to write at length.
So, is this the kind of refactoring that can be objected to? How about if I put it in the section, at top or bottom, without hiding the original text? (Assuming, of course, that I've accurately characterized the original text, which is always debatable -- snark can be found in the darnedest places...) Thanks.-- SarekOfVulcan 15:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place at WP:COI/N (Conflict of Interest Noticeboard). One admin has consented to keeping it in the open there. Two non-admin users have attempted to hide it from general view. I assume that it is fair for me to revert the attempts to hide the material, at least until an administrator is the one who hides it. -- Dude Manchap 16:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I heard that the person who is in charge of the Wikimedia Foundation's finances is the very same person who is in charge of the for-profit Wikia, Inc.'s finances. Is that true? -- Dude Manchap 03:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi again Dude. A few clarifications: you posted to ask whether there's a conflict of interest but haven't supplied much information. Normally requests to this board cite specific activity and evidence. And normally there's an onsite edit history to reference. If this person actually has registered and edits in a way that reflects a conflict of interest, this noticeboard might be able to accomplish something. If the conflict of interest relationship doesn't extend to actual editing activity then I have no direct power and only a little influence. Yet as the founder of Category:Eguor admins I'm particularly open to this type of request. Sure, why not investigate a Wikipedia/Wikia COI? Burden of evidence rests squarely on your shoulders. Go for it if it's particularly important to you. Just expect to shoulder most of the work yourself. I'll check it out, see if there's anything I can do about it, and possibly ask for broader input. That's as fair as I can be. Durova Charge! 15:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Looking over those five links, two of them are specifically legal issues outside my expertise. I have no qualification to evaluate them. Joe Szlilagyi's blog is hardly a reliable source and another on-wikipedia thread was started by someone who's expended his credibility also. The techcrunch.com article holds water, in my opinion. What exactly are you seeking? If the basic complaint regards financial relationships at that level, then the most I could do would be to ask the WMF board to review this matter, and possibly to ask someone to institute nofollow to outgoing links to Wikia. My sysop tools would be useless to address this. Or is more forthcoming? Durova Charge! 17:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) To clarify for newcomers to this thread, we've agreed to refer discussion here from the other locations because this looks like the kind of issue best addressed by community input and (possibly) petition to the WMF board. Durova Charge! 17:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I am sort of confused. Yes, Wikia and Wikipedia share a number of people. Yes, there are some aspects of cozy relationship. That is public information.
If the accusation is that there's a potential COI, then yes, but everyone's aware of it, from the Board to individual admins and editors who bother to pay attention. It's possible we'd all miss some sort of actual conflict or improper behavior, but I haven't seen any.
If you're suggesting such is going on, then please provide us some more specific proof.
If you're worried about it, ask board members if they can let you know what they're doing to review potential conflicts of interest. Georgewilliamherbert 19:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
By this argument, anyone's biography on Wikipedia could claim that they were British Lords, or heirs to the French crown, or recipients of the Nobel Prize, in spite of a lack of evidence to confirm any such wild claim.
Clearly, this is not helpful. I believe that noting that the individual at question is not listed on an official document is not OR, and it is not POV. It is just a plain bland fact. For example, "person X is not listed as an heir to the French Crown on a list published by Y. Person Z does not appear on the list of Nobel Laureates on the official list published at W, although person Z claims to have a Nobel Prize." These statements do not make the leap of inference to say that person Z or person X lied or their information was misrepresented intentionally by someone. That is left to the reader. The inconsistency is noted, and that is all. No speculation as to the reason for this are presented, since that might be OR. For example, stating in an article that the reason for this inconsistency is some given reason, such as:
and so on, is probably verging into OR and might violate the rules of WP:BLP. Do I understand this correctly?-- Filll 14:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Suppose that a RS and V source Y states that "person X is on list Z" but when list Z is examined, person X does not appear on the list. Your contention is that stating that "person X does not appear on list Z" is OR? -- Filll 15:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe this now mute moot, because I have found a source. Thanks. I just wanted to understand this better.--
Filll 15:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely correct. moot not mute!-- Filll 15:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
This is ongoing at
Bernard d'Abrera. The situation is that Bernard d'Abrera's name appears on a petition, "
A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism". His affiliation is to an institution which ceased to be known by this name over 15 years ago, in 1992. The petition was only begun in 2001, so even if d'Abrera was an early signatory of the petition (which is verifiably incorrect), this affiliation would have been incorrect by at least 9 years. The institution is currently known officially as the
Natural History Museum, and d'Abrera currently does not appear on their list of staff. I have written to the
Natural History Museum some weeks ago, and they were able to find no record of d'Abrera at all and sent me to the Museum Archives Department, and I have had no response from them for weeks. I have written to the
Natural History Museum again to try to clear this up subsequently. Today I went through
Internet Archives and found d'Abrera's name listed on the official Museum website in 2001, 2002, 2003 but d'Abrera's appears to have been dropped in early 2004, and did not appear on the official Museum website staff directory in 2004, 2005 or currently. d'Abrera appears to have signed the petition by 2006, but was not present on the original 2001 version of the petition. Out of date affiliations and wrong affiliations are very common on this petition, and we have
WP:RS and
WP:V sources that state this.--
Filll 16:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I claim d'Abrera is on the Dissent list. I claim d'Abrera's affiliation on the Dissent list is incorrect, and refers to an organization that changed names at least 9 years before the Dissent list was created. I claim that d'Abrera was listed on the Natural History Museum website in 2001, 2002 and 2003. I claim that d'Abrera is not listed on the Natural History Museum website staff list in 2004, 2005, 2006 and is not currently listed on the Natural History Museum staff list. I claim that a WP:V and WP:RS source states that this kind of misleading affiliation is common on the Dissent list. Others want to remove reference to d'Abrera appearing on the list, d'Abrera having an incorrect affiliation, d'Abrera not currently appearing on the Natural History Museum staff list and the citation to the source stating that this kind of misleading affiliation is common on the Dissent list. Is that clearer?-- Filll 18:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
In what way am I engaging in original research? Perhaps our definitions of original research are different. I believe that looking up a source, and reporting what the source says, is not original research. Is stating that someone appears on a published list or not original research? I do not believe it is, and if it is, then a large fraction of Wikipedia would have to be removed.-- Filll 19:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
It is not at all clear that d'Abrera lied about his credentials. We do not know that he was the person who listed his credentials in that way. We just know that those credentials are inaccurate, or at least that three sources state two different things.-- Filll 19:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
d'Abrera's appearance on this petition is actually a major part of his notability. And it is not just a list, but a petition which people willingly sign, as opposed to other creationist lists. d'Abrera has made vigorous efforts to promote creationism and attack evolution. Other than that, he is just a butterfly photographer without a science degree or a graduate degree, and is not particularly notable or noteworthy, as near as I can tell.-- Filll 19:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree vehemently. That is like saying an article about George W. Bush should not mention that he is President of the United States, or an article about Bill Gates should not mention that he is Chairman of Microsoft. You can try to maintain that, but I think you will have trouble getting many to agree with you.-- Filll 20:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I would agree completely, which is why I never claimed that d'Abrera had lied about his affiliation or whatever. And I do not claim this now. We do not know the reason for the confusion in affiliation (error, typo, confusion, mistake, economical with the facts, etc). All we know is that it exists. Period.-- Filll 21:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
What would people think for a "speedy delete" criteria for a stub type that is a complete or implied overlap of an existing stub type (type=template+category). A recent example is {{
US-bio-stub}}
and {{
American-biography-stub}}
, or {{
AFL-bio-1980s-stub}}
and {{
Afl-bio-1980s-stub}}
. Proposing deletion the old-fashioned way is tedious, but this kind of thing happens often. ~
JohnnyMrNinja 06:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
We cannot agree on which namespace some of these pages belong in: {{ Contents pages (header bar)}}:
That's the very condensed version, with many tangential issues. Previous discussions abound, most recently here, here, here, and here.
Please advise. -- Quiddity 17:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I guess I'm a bit of deletionist myself, but I've had not much luck getting articles deleted for failure to cite evidence of notability (see, for example, Paul Ashley Chase and Maria Hart, clear non-notable COI family member articles, Bed Head, and square root of 5, which may have picked up a usable citation in the process, but look at the comments). It seems that if enough people assert that it's important or interesting, the just about any article can survive, without citing a single independent reliable source on the subject (sometimes with no references at all, in fact); sadly, the keep votes in an AfD do seem to get counted, even when they make no attempt to address how the article relates to notability guidelines. I think that if this is the way it goes, we might as well flush the policy and take all comers. Dicklyon 00:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
And now I'm being told by User:Newyorkbrad that my placing of notability|Numbers tags on certain unreferenced articles such as 193 (number) is "disruptive". What's up with that? Dicklyon 01:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Whenever you find yourself getting upset at AfD debates, take a wander through Special:Newpages and I guarantee it will change your attitude. ← BenB4 15:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't really understand the complaint. Articles get deleted all the time on the basis of notability. The ones you're upset about seem to be, at worst, marginal. - Chunky Rice 16:55, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
My personal pet peeve was Meow Wars. No secondary sources, no hope of any, but it was basically kept on WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IREMEMBERITMYSELF. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I live in Logan County, Ohio, a rural area of farms and little villages. I'd like to add small sections about the government of the villages in my county to the village articles, but villages around here don't generally have websites or other print sources for their government. My local phone book has a section wherein the members of the respective village councils and other governmental people are listed. Is a phone book a reliable source in this way, since I'm not using it as a list of people, but as a governmental directory? Nyttend 12:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to draw the attention of the broader Wikipedia community to a policy discussion at Wikipedia talk:No original research, having to do with the use of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. The dispute concerns an edit made in the summer of 2006 which says in bold: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources", and indicates that primary sources should be rarely used. This is a policy statement, not a guideline, and the issue reflects countless Wikipedia articles that use citations to primary sources such as journal articles, poetry, novels, song lyrics, and historical documents. I personally do not think that this accurately reflects the consensus of the Wikipedia community, since primary sources are in wide use. Moreover, for some articles, such as current events articles, the primary sources are all we have to go on, because there hasn't been time for synthesis and commentary by third parties. Citations to tertiary sources, as well, such as treatises and textbooks, should be welcome in Wikipedia. The concerns about improperly synthesizing source material apply to apply to any kind of source, not just primary sources, and the policy should reflect that. COGDEN 21:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I asked this on Wikipedia talk:Lead section but received no answer. On an article like Interstate 15 in Arizona, bolding the title but not linking within it results in ridiculous sentences like "Interstate 15 in Arizona is the portion of Interstate 15 in the U.S. state of Arizona." Is the proper solution to bold nothing? -- NE2 00:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It was recently pointed out to me that {{ WP nav pages (header bar)}} is rather lengthy. It has a directory, and a quick directory, and a maintenance directory, and a shortcut directory, all of which essentially cover the same material in a slightly different order or layout. Do people actually use all of these? Perhaps we could make WP more friendly to novice users by combining these into one unified/simplified directory? >Radiant< 12:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be no firm rules against people discourteously deleting content.
This is what often leads to Edit Wars which then lead to disputes which need to be resolved by higher authority.
There are some guidelines about how to courteously delete content. For some reason it is not listed in Wikipedia:Etiquette, but instead it is listed in Wikipedia:Avoiding_common_mistakes#Deleting...
At the very least, this information about 'courtesy and deleting' should be moved to the official Etiquette page. But I think there should be firm rules about it, like there are on 3RR. It would help prevent 3RR and other similar situations.
Before deleting content that others have written, it should be compulsory for people to state a clear reason in the edit window. Why are there no rules about this? It should also be compulsory for people to initiate a discussion when deleting content.
I can see there is lots of discourteous deletions going on in political pages. Usually by editors who want to maintain a political slant on the existing article. Sometimes, there are armies of editors waiting to delete properly referenced content the second it is added. Those deleting often leave no reasonable explanation in the edit window, and don't want to consult or engage in dialog.
What it achieves, is that the process of adding content to pages or making changes is slowed down to a crawl. When the deleting editor does not respond to negotiation or mediation, it leaves formal arbitration as the only answer. But for every sentence?
I think some firm rules would help the situation. Firm rules about leaving a proper description in the edit window. Firm rules about initiating a discussion when deleting. It should be official etiquette to obey common courtesy when deleting. What do you think? Lester2 04:15, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I changed Image:SNES logo.svg from a public domain license to a non-free logo license. As soon as I did so, the user reverted the edit and put it back in public domain, and insisted that it is in public domain. I don't want to start and edit war here, so wanted to resolve the dispute otherwise. He left a message on my talk page, saying that it is in public domain because one other editor said so at the image's proposed deletion entry. It cannot be in public domain because of the folllowing:
– Dream out loud ( talk) 00:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Typefaces (fonts) are definitely not eligible for copyright in the U.S., but are considered copyrightable in the EU (and just about everywhere else). It is very rare for a party to claim copyright on a logo. Some logos ( e.g.) are almost certainly ineligible for copyright, since they contain nothing but a couple of words in a typeface. De minimis non curat lex. Others are almost certainly eligible for copyright, like any other detailed image ( e.g.) As Wikidemo says, it's better to err on the side of caution, but let's not get carried away: these sorts of images are never going to be eligible for copyright. – Quadell ( talk) ( random) 12:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
User:THF has become an issue, specifically, that he is a well-known individual off of Wikipedia. Under his previous user name (one need only go the very first cache of his current User page), which was his real name, he introduced himself on his User page using his real name and also that of his employer. He also wrote an attack piece on Michael Moore here, using his real name, which he wanted inserted into 25 articles on Wikipedia. For these actions I and another editor raised WP:COIN issues against THF, both of which failed. During those COINs, THF chucked his Real Name User Name for the one he currently has, which are his real initials, THF. Now he wants the bell unrung, and despite all this prior history of introducing himself, his employer, his real name User name, and trying to put work he authored and was published by his employer, he wants nobody on Wikipedia to make any mention of his formerly-used Real Name User Name or his real name. This has caused a massive amount of bad feelings and disruption. First, Michael Moore's website, upon learning who THF was, and how often he edits all of Moore's articles on Wikipedia, made a note of it on his website. There was not attack, and I have a screen shot saved. It was factual: this is who THF is, and this is what he is doing. However, there was a perceived invitation to harass THF by including links to edit his User page (it's possible they thought this was where we leave messages to each other) and also an invitation to edit the Sicko page (nothing wrong with that). However, THF, under the banner of WP:HARASS, led a fight to have MichaelMoore.com removed from Wikipedia. Why? Because Moore revealed who THF is, and Moore was inviting harassment with the link to edit his User page. This caused a massive argument on AN/I, which continues in various forms to this day. Edit wars over removing Moore's website from his encyclopedia articles ensued. Consensus is divided whether this falls under WP:NPA or not. At the least, we asked Moore to remove the links to the edit pages, which he did. Now what is argued is that the very mention of THF's real-life identity, which remains on that page, qualifies MichaelMoore.com as an attack site under WP:NPA, even though there is no "attack" as that word is defined, but a factual statement. The fall-back argument is now that THF has elected to unring the bell he run of disclosing his identity, Moore's site is in violation of WP:HARASS. So, many people want removed from Wikipedia a link to one of the most influential Americans out there because THF wants the bell of his identity unrung, and we are going to "punish" Moore for disclosing who THF is. One would thing that if mattered that much at this point, THF would switch to another User name. Instead, for the wishes of THF and his second thoughts, we are going to start de-linking pertinent websites and remove information from the encyclopedia we are building. My RfC: I would like to have an RfC to find out how feasible it is for a notable person on the outside who did all of the above (introduce himself, edit under his real name, reveal his employer, then switch to a User name with his real initials, and effort to have work he wrote under his real name inserted into multiple articles) to not have that persons name ever used on Wikipedia, to the length of removing content because an outside relevant website points out a statement of fact: This is who this person is, and they edit my Wikipedia pages. Comment on unring the bell and its feasibility? --David Shankbone 18:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I've already explained why I'm not changing my username a second time. WP:HARASS#Posting of personal information explicitly permits a user to change their username without having their real name discussed, even if the personal information is available in a cache. My complaint is that David Shankbone is making false COI accusations against me on yet a seventh different page after being rejected in the first six forums he shopped at, and this is a real WP:STALK problem that I would like an administrator to deal with. If he wishes to discuss changing the WP:HARASS rule without personalizing it with false characterizations of my behavior, he is welcome to do so. Again, I note that I was threatened with an indefinite block when I inadvertently revealed User:Jance's real name in the identical situation where she changed her username, and multiple editors have been doing it deliberately multiple times without so much as a warning. I'd merely like some even enforcement of the rules. THF 18:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:HARASS clearly applies to the actions of DavidShankBone, and heres why. I've only ever known user THF under that name, i did not know he had changed his user name until editors started to publish it and other personal details in violation of WP:HARASS that simple. (Hypnosadist) 19:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Has it occurred to anyone that branding Michael Moore's official website an "attack site" and purging its links from the English Wikipedia will only draw additional attention to the matter (and to THF's identity) and possibly spark a new controversy? It isn't as though it will actually prevent anyone from finding Moore's website, so what's the point? — David Levy 19:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Enough. Moore's behavior does not make his site an attack site for these purposes. THF does have a possible conflict but as far as I can tell all his edits have been NPOV or close to NPOV. He should of course be careful to continue abiding by NPOV and pay particular attention to the WP:COI guideline. JoshuaZ 21:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The applicable policy and section here is WP:NPA#External links, which has been modified in recent days. - Crockspot 21:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
so is any of you gonna cum great me? i've bin on here for a few weeks and made lots of editz. Haute Fuzze 05:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I dare say there's an amazingly obvious and good reason, but why isn't there automatic signing of comments on talk pages and reference desks etc? DuncanHill 01:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Hagermanbot used to take care of this on certain pages when people forgot. Hagerman left the project in april and the bot stopped running about a month later. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 02:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Conspiracy theory titles is a proposal to redirect all articles containing the phrase "Conspiracy Theory" in their titles. The basic premis is that the phrase is, by its nature, POV and non-neutral. This has been proposed before... (see Wikipedia:Conspiracy theory) by the same editor and was rejected. Please comment at Wikipedia talk:Conspiracy theory titles. Blueboar 18:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I didn't know where else to post this, but I thought this should get some attention: a film director is suing imdb.com (and its parent company, amazon.com) in New York state court because her imdb listing incorrectly credited her with directing pornographic films. [7] My understanding of how imdb works is that all of the information is user submitted, but it differs from Wikipedia in that it is reviewed by paid employees before it is publicly posted. Still, it should be interesting to see the plaintiff's arguments and how this is resolved. I have yet to find a copy of the complaint online. Postdlf 15:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed in the past year or so a sudden spike in the use of NOR/SYNT in wikilawyering. The claims about SYNT which I did not agree with generally had to do with some tangent in the article that one editor didn't feel was relevant, or to remove cruft, so they'd use a strained intepretation of SYNT to argue against it.
To me, SYNT means you infer/deduce new facts and put them in the article. Not because you might lead the reader to infer new facts, not because you put a couple of sentences close together in a novel way, it's when you write down the new inference.
Is it possible that the proposed relevance guideline could cut down on this overuse of SYNT? Squidfryerchef 14:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Relevance of content and offer what comments you can.-- Father Goose 08:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Consensus has proved very difficult to reach on "not needed" and is sorely needed. In general, the argument against any such policy is that relevance is determined both through the give-and-take between editors and through the constraints applied by all the other rules. As a consequence, when one tries to write a Relevance guideline it either: states the obvious, states what is already a rule somewhere else, states what belongs as a rule somewhere else, or is so vague a Mack truck could drive through. Although I prefer "not needed", I would much prefer putting the "not needed" issue to rest either way. — WikiLen 16:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
All editors working on this are focused on what to have at Relevance. The current and historical work: - ( WikiLen)
Currently, a bizarre compromise is in effect: links to "Relevance" go to Relevance and shortcuts to "Relevance", such as WP:RELEVANCE redirect to Relevance of content. There must be a way to untangle this zoo of issues... editors please help, especially those with policy experience! — WikiLen 16:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a new guideline:
IP editors should be blocked for 2 weeks each time 10 different users suggest that they create an account, a user may suggest account creation any number of times as long as they suggest once per "10 suggest cycle." An IP editor must have 1 month to try out Wikipedia before being blocked for this reason, after the IP editor's block has expired the editor must have an additional 2 weeks to continue to try out Wikipedia before they can be blocked again for this reason. When an IP editor has not made any contributions for 1 month and then makes another contribution an editor with blocking powers cannot block the editor again for this reason for 1 month then 2 weeks each "10 suggest cycle" again.
What do you think? Tcrow777 talk 06:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I can say that I am tired of the "Do you want me to register? Sorry, not interested. A string of numbers is all I need:}" attitude that many IP editors have, this guideline will not efect dynamic IPs (we have ways of telling the difference). Tcrow777 talk 07:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
"...luverlee, "IP's Should Be Banned!", that, the Norwegien Blue!"(With apologies to Monty & Friends) LessHeard vanU 12:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Why do IP editors refuse to get an account so many times when it is suggested? Oh, by the way, I changed my sig, even when there was nothing wrong with it. Tcrow777 ( talk) 19:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand the point of this guideline. What's to be gained? - Chunky Rice 22:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Those stubborn IP editors get an account. They will not be banned, they will just get a 2 week block. Tcrow777 talk 22:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
IP editors who refuse to register are harmful to Wikipedia, Jimbo Wales said himself in response to a complaint by an IP editor:
"Sorry, but anon ip numbers do not have the same civil rights as logged in members of the community. If you want to be a good editor, get an account, make good edits. I really don't care about your complaint as currently stated." -- Jimbo Wales
Tcrow777 talk 23:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Prove it! Why are you against IP editors registering? Tcrow777 talk 23:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Once upon a time I was a registered user ( User:Orkadian). Then User:Mais oui! took a dislike to my contributions because they disagreed with his point of view and so he started a) reverting my every edit and then b) constantly accused me of being a sock puppet of another user he disliked until I got unjustly banned. As a registered user it is all to easy to become prey to POV stalkers like User:Mais oui! (The unjustly blocked User:Orkadian)
See WP:PERRENIAL#Prohibit anonymous users from editing. ← BenB4 11:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Considering that "Trivia" or "Pop culture" sections keep popping up like mushrooms after a rainstorm, I would like to know if it would ever be acceptable for an editor to unilaterally remove one of these sections from an article. The consensus seems to be that Trivia is "bad" but deleting a giant section of an article might not be looked upon very kindly, either. So, for example, if I was to remove the "in Popular culture" section from the article Mr. T, would I be violating any kind of policy (assuming I announced my intentions beforehand on the talk page)? GhostPirate 06:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)