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We really should not be worried about copyrighted pictures from government sights. These are COPYRIGHTED PICTURES from a GOVERNMENTAL SOURCE im talking about here. This source could be department of defence, department of economics, or department of face-painting. ITS FROM THE GOVERNMENT. ITS AUTOMATICALLY FAIR USE YOU .. im not going to say it. The editors on here just seem to want to block anything that is on the internet but thats IMPOSSIBLE because to display something on the internet it obvioulsy has to come, at some point.. FROM THE INTERNET. Dont you get it?
WTH is wrong with you guys?
Id like a fair response to my question please. Jeremy D. 19:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Itchy01ca ( talk • contribs) .
Rather than list every article listed on
List of people by nationality for AfD, I think it would be easier to have one AfD for them all. Also, the only reason one would be deleted and not all of them is if people with different veiws on notablity voted on them. Without knowing about the rest, I listed
List of Iranians for AfD. As of now, it looks like it would be deleted under the reasoning that it is unmaintainable and could be a category. That would apply to all lists in List of people by nationality. But how to go about this? Would I put an AfD notice on all of them and have them be redirected to one AfD? I would like to get input on how to do it as well as support before I do this. An suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
Wikibout-
Talk to me! 23:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
It now seems it will be kept so I withdraw this suggestion. Wikibout- Talk to me! 14:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe that before a 3RR complaint can be considered, the editor allegedly violating 3RR should be notified of the complaint. I have seen discussions go on about a user who has no idea that they are being discussed and have no idea that there is a rule such as the 3RR. I'm speaking from experience, as I was blocked when I first started editing for violating 3RR, and had no idea about the rule, had not been warned, and had no idea that someone had submitted my name to this page. It wou;dn't be that hard to notify people that are reported here. What does everyone think? Ch u ck (contrib) 01:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd say on most 3RR violations it's not necessary. It's a case of...
But perhaps on 3RR violations that involve debate the user should be notified. Hmmm... something to think about. -- Lord Deskana I VALUE YOUR OPINIONS 21:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a long list of ethnicity nominations heating up at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 3.
We need a firm policy on this for Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories).
This needs clear policy and forceful enforcement. We have a real problem with racism among some of the editors.
For example, folks with 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 Black ancestry are again being categorized as "African-American" without any verifiability. I don't want to go back to the days where folks were called " mulatto", " quadroon" and " octaroon". It's certainly not appropriate for a modern encyclopedia.
Another example:
I find the racist sentiment repugnant. It is contrary to current practices. For notable examples in the popular media:
Are there any existing Proposed guidelines or policy or essays? I'm planning on writing a new one, and it would be helpful to know where the previous attempts have been made.
If folks could point me at past discussion, I will try to formulate something in the next few days. Thank you.
Can we not have this Jewish vs. everyone else thing again? If you have this opinion, good for you, but must you share it time and again? Not only is it incorrect, it can be offensive to certain people. If a white supremacy site calls him Jewish, obviously we can't use them (We can't use them for sources on anything other than themselves, anyway). If a reliable publication calls him Jewish, we can too, pending a source that explicitly says he isn't (and the same is true for anyone else, obviously). Mad Jack 18:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
You two are filling volumes here and don't seem to be making any progess. Might I suggest taking this to a dedicated page somewhere and perhaps request an impartial mediator to try to help things along. FWIW, I think I disagree with both of you. To Arniep, I agree that self-identification is somewhat problematic, which is why I would insist on verifiable self-identification. Essentially, would not only have to self-identify with a heritage, but would also have to have some verifiable evidence for the claim. Note that is is about categorization. As I replied above, there's no problem with having attributed statements in articles (regardless of whether someone self-identifies), but I think it is inappropriate to label anyone through categories as having a particular heritage if they do not self-identify with that heritage. For historical persons, there would have to be verifiable evidence not only of biological heritage, but also that that heritage played some signficant role in the person's life. older ≠ wiser 18:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
What is the policy of commercial links where an editor claims they are based on review of films? Namely in the article Erik Rhodes (porn star) there are numerous links both as External links and under Filmography that are to commercial sites for selling pornography. I would just like to know what guideline is expected here. Thanks. Doc 08:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Since WP:NC moved from being a guideline to a policy it can potentially come into conflict with WP:NPOV. If this subject is of interest to you please share your opinions at WP talk:NC#NPOV and naming convention conflicts -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
The guideline linked above has been proposed to establish notability standards for books. I invite the community to visit the project page and make comments on its discussion page.-- Fuhghettaboutit 21:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk:99942 Apophis.
While Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Is deductive reasoning original research? is not an example of a reasonable deductive inference, this was discussed recently on Wikipedia talk:No original research under the heading Reasonable inference, and there was also a recent question on section Mathematics that happens to be related. The fact is that unless an article is going to have identical sentences as its sources, some sort of deduction is being made. Synthesis is necessary for creating an article from multiple sources. The mathematics relation is that, here, we have an example of pure deduction under the rules of mathematics—which are verifiable—and a situation where simple demonstrative proofs cannot be made without either making those deductions or duplicating text from elsewhere. — Centrx→ talk • 06:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
We can not have any "criteria", other than the source calling the person X-American, which is the "criteria" for any Wikipedia article - repetition of what a good source said specifically on that person/subject. On a list called Irish American Plaigarists, the person needs to have been referred as 1. Irish 2. American and 3. Plaigarist. If there are sources that refer to the person as two of those things in the same sentence, the better for us. In the case of the person being called these three things in three different places, we are not making any synthesis, but still repetition. I.e. if something says "Person A owns a dog" and then "Person A owns a cat", when we sat "Person A owns a dog and a cat" this is an exact repetition that means the same thing as the original version - no need for looking up a definition and attachin a term, which is what the translating of X father to the person themselves being X-American would entail. It's all in the translation. If we have to go look up a definition, that's OR. Mad Jack 15:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but as has been said, Wikipedia does not make up any criteria for inclusion for anything, much less based on "Blood". Doesn't matter how much of what their father, mother, or great-grandmother was. Just like we don't have criteria for what is or is not plaigarism. If a source said it was plaigarism, we quote it. If not, not. Same thing here. Mad Jack 08:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Hotel articles are particularly spam-prone and a number of articles have been created about fairly unknown hotels. Since precedents on AfDs have generally established that touristic information should be on WikiTravel, I've been trying to draft a guideline for the notability of hotels to ensure that the new articles created have some encyclopedic value. Comments would be greatly appreciated. Pascal.Tesson 15:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I recently found that a list article that I maintain was deleted per the following discussion: see the AfD discussion. Doesn't it seem like a bad idea to delete the list before the category is created? I'm specifically referring to the fact that all the state-specific lists (bands and musicians) were deleted. Those pages were not "a yellow pages for musicans", they were useful tools. It's too bad that warning can't or won't be given to the people who have a stake in articles that have been nominated for deletion. And when a page is deleted, who should take responsibility to fix all the redlinks that are left behind? - Freekee 16:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I just mixed up my internal and external linking tagging. Thanks, I fixed it. The thing is, I did have the list article on my watchlist, and watched it very closely. There was no mention of an AfD on the talk page - it was just gone, one day. But yeah, they don't need to notify the frequent editors if they mention it on the talk page. Is every editor with a stake in an article supposed to watch the AfD page? The other big problem is that the list was not redundant to a category because no such category exists! No, it's not disgouraging, it's just annoying, and I'm hoping we can find a way to make sure these sorts of things don't happen again. In this case, it was laziness on the part of the noms. The list mentioned above was a list of lists. When they deleted "list of US musicians", they also deleted the sub list for each state. And also the related "lists of (state) bands". So that was over 100 articles. I can see why nobody wanted to tag all of those lists, but that's no excuse. And since the list pages have been deleted, I can't even look them up in order to populate the categories. It's frustrating. - Freekee 19:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Grateful for comments on my suggestion at [4]-- Runcorn 20:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The legal position in some countries (I am thinking of Ireland, where the libel laws are ferocious) is such that it probably does represent a threat to Wikipedia. Never mind the editing environment, that is far from the main worry - you have to be able to let people remove or amend offensive articles, or you are contributing to the damage by continuing to publish the libel. However, I suggest a variety of ways around this;
Make it a condition of use (including reading) that any disputes are settled under the law of a free speech jurisdiction like the US
Make it a condition of use that disputes are the subject of arbitration rather than law - Wikipedia providing the arbitrator
Permitting a "Two sides of the story" article until the dispute is resolved. -- Jpmills 11:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there a way to resolve a content dispute at Wikipedia? I do not mean the simple case if users found a compromise after a discussion or a mediation. The question is about a more complicated case, i.e. if the discussion failed to resolve the dispute, the RfC brought opposite views, one of the parties refused mediation.
According to WP:DR, the last resort is Arbitration, but ArbCom usually does not consider content disputes. It seems there is no way at all to resolve content disputes in complicated cases. Finally, the solution depends on which of the two sides of the dispute is more numerous and persistent and is able to "win" the edit war.
I would appreciate the comments of experienced WP editors.-- AndriyK 13:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
In certain cases content is decided by brute strength. In others by cleverly playing the dispute resolution game. Neither is legitimate. Fred Bauder 20:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
One of the central issues of recent discussion around fair use, and I think a difficult question, is whether the uploader should be required to judge whether media is admittable under fair use prior to uploading. The two sides seem to go something like this:
I'm not sure what the best solution is. Maybe there could be some kind of compromise solution in which new fair use images are uploaded to a "fair use queue" where they are not to be used until they are processed by a reviewer (ideally, the software would enforce that they are not used). I like this solution because I don't really think uploaders will listen to anything we say. Any other feedback or suggestions would be appreciated though. Deco 18:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
There's a problem if something is genuinely used for fair use in one place then used somewhere else in an unfair way.-- Runcorn 22:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed alot lately on Sci-Fi and video game pages, that people are using the term " race" instead of " species". e.x. Klingon race. This is incorrect, as race is like a sub-division of species. If the Klingons are a race, then what species are they from? Human? I have had to clear this problem up with the Mortal Kombat Wikiproject. I think people may be getting the term "race" mixed up with "species" because of the slang term "human race", which is like I said; is slang and isn't Encyclopedic. I think that Wikipedia should make a stand on this issue, so that the correct terms are used. SilentRage 00:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
"Race" is commonly used in fictional genres with alien elements, including fantasy and role-playing games. None of the races exist in reality, and the story lines may not clearly establish any of them as species that can reproduce with others of the same species, under the modern biological definition. Klingons can produce offspring with humans and in one of the episodes all of the Alpha Quadrant races were descendents of the same species; half-orcs are a partial race of orcs with different properties. What race always means in this context is a distinct class of characters with different properties. Klingons are violent and brave; elves have +1 Magic or something.
Ultimately, even aside from this meaning in the genre, in English, race still means "A tribe, nation, or people, regarded as of common stock." The zoological meaning of "species" is not what is meant here and is irrelevant. It is only a specialized application to humans that the human species is divided into three races. I don't know how exactly this applies in Mortal Kombat, but in other applications it is standard and appropriate to refer to the elements as races, and there is nothing wrong with that in English. — Centrx→ talk • 10:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Two creatures of different species can mate. Wolves and Dogs anyone? If two things can mate, it just means that they are genetically compatible enough for it to work. It doesn't mean that they are nessessarily within the same species. One of the reasons I brought this up is because calling different species, different races is slang. It's based on the whole "human race" slang term. I think that it screwed alot of people up, when it comes to the definitions of those two words. The second (and probably less) reason is because it may be offensive to alot of people. Think of all of the racial groups who read that different species are just different races, and the human species is one race. It just takes away their identity, and can become very offensive, even though it's not real. SilentRage 03:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the distinction, whether intentional or not, seems to be that "animal-like" creatures: wargs, dewbacks, etc. are referred to as species, while reasonably intelligent bipedal "human-like" creatures: Klingons, Ithorians, orcs are referred to as a race. -- Canley 03:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
The Concise Oxford Dictionary gives, as one meaning of race, "a genus, species, breed, or variety of animals, plants, or micro-organisms". A genus is of course a whole group of species.-- Runcorn 22:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Missing the point completely, the point isn't what's "right" - it's what's you can verify, from WP:VERIFY:
{{Associations/Wikipedia Bad Things}}
Thanks/ wangi 09:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
But COD agrees with the sci-fi usage: both say that a race can mean a species. And how does it violate WP:NOR?-- Runcorn 10:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I know that some people don't bother signing up for an account and edit via their IP address. I feel that their user and discussion pages should be blocked as it is not necessary that they are able to be edited due to the fact that IP addresses change all the time. It would be better if they actually signed up for an account. Thoughts?
If this is in the wrong spot then please move it. Mr. C.C. ( talk <-> contribs) ( review me) 04:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
A condition exists that has the potential to degrade the value of links in an article. Many links exist that have no relevancy to the article or specific part of an article that contains the link.
I don't have a solution. I know that an author should not be held to check the relevancy of every link placed in his article "automatically", however. On the other hand I have yet to encounter an irrelevant link in my Encyclopaedia Britannica 2006 Ult Ref Suite. Some may feel that what EB does is irrelevant but there is a need for some policing of links for relevancy. As the percentage of relevant links declines people will not want to be following wild geese, reading linked articles that may not be relevant.
I recently posted this example -- Dogfish 18:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone has asserted that, in principle, once an incident has been referenced in hundreds of news articles, it must go into an article and that any scrutiny of the content is improper.
I counter that the Wikipedia is different from a newspaper which reports all the rumors, speculation, etc. before the dust has a chance to settle. Since the content is intended to be permanent, there's always a filter around how transient or insignificant a story is — even if the threshold of hundreds of references in news articles is met. I think that the "hundreds of references in news articles" is only a starting point and neither necessary nor sufficient. patsw 00:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've proposed a few guidelines on responding to RfCs. Please comment on the talk page. SB Johnny 10:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello all,
I'm confronted to a policy problem that follows:
I would like to write an article about a personality. Up to a certain point of his life (until he became famous), there are not much sources about him except his own memoirs. It is an OK reference for writing a (preferably good :) article?
Thanks! -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 11:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, I will be more precise. The person in question is a Soviet military commander during WWII. Obviously, until he became quite important several years before WWII, the only source of information about him (his childhood and his participation in First WW) are his memoires, who were published several times by various Soviet (now Russian) editors. Can those be considered as a reliable source regarding this part of his life?
And thanks for replies you already made, they're really important to me! :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've added a new template, {{ Suspected impostor}}, for reporting suspected impostor accounts which have not been blocked. I did this because:
-- EngineerScotty 02:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
You are all probably aware of this, but by typing a few select keywords into the search function, you can find many deletion-worthy spam articles.
Today I typed in "company leverage solution" & got a torrent of IT company articles (some of which apparently were already deleted). I AfD'd five of them before I ran out of energy.
Some other good keywords (use several together) to find spam, and spammishness:
enterprise optimize website news information scaleable deliver touchpoint integration manage
If you want to find neologisms, type in:
term coined
-- Cheese Sandwich 03:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
This will likely be an obvious question that I should already know the answer to, but please bear with me. An IP user, formerly blocked for an hour for straw poll rallying, has stated he is "not coming back" and has blanked his talk page. His IP is in an address pool. Am I justified in reverting the blanking? I have searched for official policy on this, but the closest I found was at Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism, which doesn't clearly define whether comments surrounding a dispute (mainly statements clarifying the block, the user begging for unblocking, and other users responding to the rallying) qualify as warnings; there were no {{test}} templates used. -- Omicronpersei8 ( talk) 04:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
JA: Like any WP:Policy or Guideline whose fair and equal enforcement would depend on knowing the real-world identity and affiliations of each editor in question, the aspects of WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:VER, and WP:SPAM that deal with advancing particular purposes are simply null and void. Just f'r'instance, nobody has any way of knowing for sure whether that editor or that cabal of evatars who are so insistent about imposing the POV of their favorite secondary source on an article is in fact the author or publisher of the work in question. What will be the result of attempting to enforce a WikiProvision of this type — and I use the word "vision" blindly? The editors who are honest enough to use their real names will be at the disadvantage of the editors, their agents, and their evatars who are not. WikiPar for the course, of course. Jon Awbrey 18:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
JA: If people are failing to recognize the problem then that is par for the course in WP. Just for instance, let us say that an editor with the WikiPseudonym of GodsOwnTruth has a curious insistence on citing a particular book as the main authority on every subtopic of a given article. Let's say that 2 or 3 other editors concur in this opinion and are thus able to declare a "consensus" that trumps any attempt to balance the account. I myself know of several cases just like this. Please don't tell me how it's s'posed to work. I already know how it's s'posed to work. I also know how it actually works out in practice. And there is a real problem here, whether you recognize it or choose to deny it. Jon Awbrey 03:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
JA: Well, thanks for explaining why there's a block-hole icon at the top of the page. It's pretty clear that no policy changes ever come out of water-cooler chit-chat, but I'm sure it provides a useful distraction for those who need the distraction. Yes, I've seen how your WQAs, RFCs, CP3Os, and R2D2s work. They are about as useful as crying in your beer, except for the part about the beer. If you can't see that there's a differential advantage to someone who writes a book in the real world under his or her real name and uses a WikiPseudonym (or several) to promote the POV of that book in WP articles, and someone who uses his or her real name in both the real world and in this, er, unreal world, then "I fear that your judgment is beyond repair", to quote Mel Gibson. Jon Awbrey 04:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
The Template:Unblockabuse deletion debate moved to WP:DRV. -- Omniplex 00:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
For the last month, myself and 1-2 other individuals have been jumpstarting a massive cleanup project as an attempt to bring order to Wikipedia. I think I have the methodology sorted out: now we need participants. There are more details on the project page. Thank you. Cwolfsheep 12:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I've looked all over trying to figure this out but I can't seem to find it. Can I upload images which were published in a peer-reviewed journal like Physical Review? One example that I would like to upload is this plot from [6] for the Standard Solar Model page. There are several other instances in which the scientific results from an experiment are nicely summed up in a plot that has been published, and it would help the article considerably to include it. Are such images ok if you cite the source? (By the source I mean the peer-reviewed article itself, not the website mentioned above.) If so, what copyright status tag should one use? Flying fish 18:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I should mention that I had intended to get the images from the arxiv, rather than from the journals themselves (for which you need a subscription, maybe that should tell me something...) Flying fish 19:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to all of you for your comments! I've noticed that someone asked something similar directly on the Talk:ArXiv page. If someone with a good understanding of fair use weighs in and says it's ok it would be great if we could add a fair use template for images published on the ArXiv, or perhaps more generally for images demonstrating scientific results (if that is indeed ok). Flying fish 01:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Curious as to policy about linking to sites with embedded YouTube-hosted videos. My hunch is that it would be better to simply link directly to the video at YouTube.com rather than the intermediate site (assuming the embedded page itself provides no additional/immediate relevant content). This policy would alleviate any concerns about endorsing the site, advertising, etc per WP:EL. For example, if a blog happens to have a video of the Napolean Dynamite dance embedded in it, should the Napolean Dynamite aricle link to that blog page, or directly to the YouTube-hosted video? (A possible hitch might be if the site-owner is also the creator on the content, who just is using YouTube as the hosting service). Thoughts? -- mtz206 ( talk) 01:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what this page is actually for? I'm not criticising the speedy-delete policy, just this specific page. The problem is that speedy deletions are done via {{db-whatever}} and CAT:CSD, and disputed via {{ hangon}} and the article's talk page, so Wikipedia:Speedy deletions doesn't really get a look-in. The main policy description page for speedy-deletion seems to be WP:CSD. -- ais523 16:38, 10 July 2006 ( U T C)
The community seems to be quite divided over the matter of ethics and morality in wikipedia, as evidenced by the rejection of Wikipedia:Wikiethics, Wikipedia:NOT evil, WP:EVIL, and Wikipedia:Beyond Good and Evil. i have tried to create a policy that incorporates all viewpoints and concerns, based on [9] and some of User:Herostratus's reasons for WP:NE. This policy does not endorse objective morality, or impose an ideology on wikipedia, which some believed would lead to censorship, and it asks editors to set aside their personal morality and philosophy in the interest of neutrality and information when on wikipedia, but it also states that wikipedia should not cause unessecary harm. please tell me what you think on the talk page. -- Samael775 19:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is it still not possible to review my own deleted contributions? Not the content itself, but just the names of the articles the contributions were to?
I have already asked that in March, and received the answer that it's a technical issue, namely that reviewing deleted contibutions is an "everyone or noone" permission.
AFAICT, currently the fine-grained control over the permissions is implemented in MediaWiki and used on Japanese wikipedia.
So, why do you still conceal from users their own contributions? -- tyomitch 01:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Type in "List of fictional" in the search function. You will get a bewildering number of inane lists such as List of fictional chimpanzees, List of Fictional Nurses, List of fictional cigarettes, etc. Three questions:
I've just AfD'd one such list, List of fictional military organizations, only to discover the true extent of these... Your thoughts? Thanks- -- Cheese Sandwich 04:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
It's always good to come to a debate and already see my opinion brushed off as that of a "listcruft deletionist".
The problem with many of these lists is that they illustrate no topic; instead, they're merely a list of things that share an attribute. In the case of List of fictional military organizations, there's nothing you can really say about these things other than that they're fictional military organizations. The list is so broad as to include warrior castes and defense forces and police forces and terrorist groups and individual army companies and espionage cells and...well, you get the idea.
Likewise the list of pigs; that list has such inane criteria that it includes Porky Pig, a character anthropomorphized to the point where his porcine nature is almost never referred to in the context of the fictional works (and this is in something like 60 or 70 years of fiction from many disparate sources!), to Cartman's pot-bellied pig, who is clearly a mundane pet whose only attribute of note is completely unrelated to being a pig to characters who are greedy or fat or have other typically piggish attributes.
What possible trend are these articles illustrating? What can you say about them other than "These are things that are foo"? How are they not idiosyncratic non-topics, per the deletion policy? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 05:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I look at it this way: is Wikipedia better for expending a portion of its finite editorial resources (disk space and server resources aren't infinite, but they won't run out before interest runs out) maintaining these lists? Is it worth cluttering otherwise useful categories (and similar tools, such as Whatlinkshere and Recentchanges and such)? When you're talking about a list with no topic (something called out in deletion policy, as an "idiosyncratic non-topic" and in What Wikipedia Is Not as an "indiscriminate collection of information"), I don't think the answer can be anything but no.
That isn't to say every "List of fictional foo" is necessarily topicless, but when a list is so broad that you can't say anything about everything (or even most things) other than what's in the title, it's probably less "List of Communist-themed antagonists from Silver-Age superhero comics" and more "List of things that are blue." - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 15:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
In answer to your three questions:
1) As to maintainability, "Lists of fictional X," are no more or less maintainable than any "List of real X." Just as fictional lists have to be updated as new fiction appears, list of real things have to be updated as thing happen in the real world. THus "Lists of fictional X" require new more effort than any other article, list or not. Further, Wikipedia editors come in all stripes - including those that prefer to edit articles on fictional topics; no special effort by uninterested Wikipedians should be required.
2) This, I think, would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis. I can see many lists of fictional things having useful research applications, not just for traditional academic writing (which can at times focus on esoteric topics of popular culture), but also for people interested in writing original fiction (especially Wold Newton style hybrids) or simply casual browsers interested in some book, show, game or movie they like. Some lists of fictional things, however, are too broad, limited, obscure, or otherwise flawed to support.
3) This one is the sticky one. On the one hand, Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. On the other, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. In many cases, the fate of an individual "List of fictional X" is going to come down to which of these principals various editors feel is more important.
Further, it should be noted that lists are not interchangable with categories. Lists offer the possibility of arranging information in ways other than strictly alphabetical, and allow for annotation and commentary not possible in tha category.
My recommendation is that each "List of fictional X" be carefully examined and only AfDed if there is a critical flaw, essentially maintaining the current system, rather that taking any kind of blanket action. - CNichols 02:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Dear administrator,
Lately I have noticed an error in the Arabic entry for Jerusalem (القدس). It was said that (free translation:) "Jerusalem is one of the greatest cities of Palestine, and its capital". This is, of course, not true: Palestine has no capital, for it is not even a state yet; Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. I think correction is nessecary.
Thanks.
See: http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.143.165.209 ( talk • contribs) 2006-07-10 10:23:08 (UTC)
The thing is, I did just that; I changed it in proper Arabic from "Palestine" to "Israel". But they changed it back to the way it was. I ask myself whether higher interference is requirred or not. Although it is indeed a problematic and disputed issue, one should remember that the Israeli Knesset and gouvernment are located in Jerusalem, while no official capital-worthy Palestinian institution dwells within the city (the village of Abu-Dis is not a part of Jerusalem, and the "Orient House" has been shut down years ago). Palestine isn't a state for now, and it has no capital - its institutions are spread throughout the territories. So with all due to political disputes, I think Arabic Wikipedia must face the reality. Defacto, Jerusalem isn't the capital of Palestine. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.143.165.209 ( talk • contribs) .
The question is how to define a capital. Defacto, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Although many countries does not accept this, and keep their embassies outside, the city still functions as the Israeli capital - in aspects of government, judicial system (the High Court) etc. This status of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital defacto, is confirmed, by the way, in the English Wikipedia entry for "Israel" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel ). So, if you examine the state as it is now, Jerusalem functions as the Israeli capital, and definatly not as the Palestinian one.
I know Arabic, and I can edit Arab Wikipedia entries. I did that. But the problem is, that they changed it back. This is where I wonder: Doesn't Wikipedia has basic standarts? How come the International English Version regard Jerusalem as the Israeli capital (like man other version of Wikipedia), while the Arabic version doesn't? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.143.165.209 ( talk • contribs) .
And while I am at this, there is an article called "ambulance chaser". Is it WIkipedia style to have a derogatory term for a group of professionals as an entry? Should we also include 'greedy insurance companies' or 'medical hacks' or 'bean-counters' (for accountants)? Is this what we want for Wikipedia? I heard (but do not know for sure) that the "ambulance chaser" article was initially created by creating the name and placing an image of John Edwards as the sole content of the article. Now the article at least has some attempt to create a NPOV article, but you really can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And why would we want to try?
I admit I am only a few months into editing Wikipedia, although I have read it for awhile - but generally on topics of interest that are well written. But when I started editing, I looked up something which led me to the 'tort reform' and then I realized that there were webs of subarticles branching out all focusing on the same political agenda - favorites are tort reform and lawyer bashing, but I'm sure there are others. I was appalled at the 'ambulance chaser' article. I am an attorney, but not a personal injury lawyer. I still find this highly offensive, both personally and as a WIkipedia editor. What kind of encyclopedia is this? THere is nothing encyclopedic about these aricles, unless you want to have a separate dictionary of derogatory terms and epithets. Then we could add 'medical hacks', 'greedy corporations', and soon devolve further into 'dirty nigger', 'jewboy', 'kikes', and the like. We could make a name for ourselves for being the encyclopedia that is an equal opportunity offendor and the baddest of bad taste. I think this paints the picture?
So the question here, is please help me understand what policies address this, if any, and if there aren't any, why aren't there? jgwlaw 04:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello. Could anyone elaborate on the protocol for coping with disruptive users that utilise multiple roving IP addresses? Meaning that almost each edit is under a different IP address so warning and then blocking a user is of no use, as they simply pop up to vandalise and disrupt elsewhere with a different address.-- Zleitzen 08:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've spent some time trying to draft clear, neutral, and specific language to cover the recent debates. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage. Note that I'm deliberately using a very broad umbrella term, rather than a list of "ancestry, class, culture, ethnicity, national origin, race, religion, or previous condition of servitude".
I believe that there is general agreement on how to label them, and specific agreement on the use of hyphenation, supported by numerous debates at Categories for Discussion.
Remember, these are Wikipedia:Naming conventions, and need to be concise. The detailed guidelines for inclusion and interpretation will be at Wikipedia:Categorization of people, where we can worry about other issues.
Opened at WT:AFD, a dual proposal for:
-- 62.147.38.70 17:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Check the history tab on this page.
I don't think I agree with this asessment, that footnote is for the meaning of the reference in the whole article, not just that bit about spelling, also, it seems inconsistant (at least to me, I do have some knowledge in this area) to say that spelling is (*all*) the same within the Britsh Isles and within every English speaking country, but differs between each English speaking country beyond the British Isles (just becuase that's how it is "authorised"). Linguistic cirteria does not disinguish "dialects" and "languages." Can you tell me, for example, is there a definite border between US spelling conventions and Canadian spelling conventions. According to the laws of linguistis, there is no inherent reason why differences in vocabulary, word formation, and even spelling need to follow country borders, therefore just becuase dictionarys for a particular country have the same spelling for all places and groups, does not mean that spelling "beyond the dictionarys" is the same. Have you ever heard of Scots spelling, or Black English spelling? Consider dictionarys for a prarticular "national varietys" of a "language" that may provide two different spellings of a word, and consider the possiblity that local usage may favour one spelling over the other. Myrtone
"Yes, linguistics need not follow national or political boundaries." Well, unfortuately, JackLumber ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) seems to follow (exactly) these boundries, but yet claims to be a "linguist." Myrtone
"historical, political, cultural ties between Canada and Britain" I'm not so sure about that historical, let alone, cultural ties with, say England, or what you even mean by the "boundries of the box." Believe me, even serious scholars do not neccasessarily *write* according to community consensus. Myrtone
There are two issues - the words used and the standard spellings. The early dictionary-makers in the USA chose to vary a few common words - honour and honor, for instance. This has remained fixed ever since. English-speakers within the British Empire and later the Commonwealth accepted the UK standard for spelling. Some extra words are used, not only in Scotland but also in English regions.
Microsoft Word 2002 offers English (Ireland) and also Gaelic (Scotland) along with Gaelic (Ireland). I wouldn't be surprised if this changed soon.
-- GwydionM 17:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I hope this is an adequate place to post this. I'm not an expert user, so bear with me. I might be completely mistaken, but I have the impression that some vandals might get too much attention here. I realize it is easier to ban someone if their actions are known, but pages like this one almost seem to pay tribute to these users (I also realize some of their edits can be amusing, etc. but there are other places on the internet for that). I'm of the opinion that vandalism is fairly easy to spot and control and that these imbeciles will leave if they are ignored. I know the issue is much more complex, but I just wanted to share my thoughts. ChaChaFut 06:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Suppose one had solid evidence of an editor's systematic use of multiple socks for the purpose of intimidation, false consensus building, 3RR aversion, etc. What is the best way to present said evidence, given the fact that doing so would likely allow the objective observer to surmise the identity of the puppeteer? Is there an "off-line" alternative to how I see it attempted so clumsily so often? Wikipalooza2006 07:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I would love to contribute to some of the stubs floating around wikipedia, but one thing bothers me:
In entertainment articles (particularly those about a particular show, anime or videogame), there are often a slew of sub-pages which seem to probe every facet of said show etc. Is this what wikipedia is actually aiming for?
One example is 'Cultural references and innuendo in Rocko's Modern Life'. It's a list of innuendos and product references from a cartoon show. I can't for the life of me see how it's relevant in an encyclopedia.
Other examples would be anime which focusses on combat - often every minor character is listed somewhere with a list of who they fought, when and where. This is often all there is to these characters anyway, since they're very minor. It seems like a boatload of fancruft.
Not only does it pad out the encyclopedia with fluff, but it distracts contributors from filling out numerous stubs because they're so busy listing the many 'Mr X's and how many times they kicked 'Character Z' in the face.
Is there a rule or assertion somewhere which discourages this kind of page? I'm aware that unsubstantiated fancruft is discouraged, but is there a rule implying that articles should remain to-the-point and not shatter into a thousand sub-pages with useless information for the info-seeker?
Any input appreciated,
QuagmireDog 13:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has been going on regarding the "Atlantic 10 Conference" Template...I'm including what has been said, so far, below. Why can't you put logos in a template? I don't agree with it, and it certainly improves the look of the template..what does everyone think Lasallefan 18:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
beginning of discussion on a-10 template talk page
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Logo
What's the problem with using the logo? 192.160.62.60
Wikipedia policy as described at Wikipedia:Fair use criteria item #9 specifically proscribes the use of fair use images outside of the main article namespace. Thus, the use of fair use images, such as logos, is not permitted in templates. --Durin 13:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC) I understand what your saying, but here's the thing, a Template is an EXTENSION of a main article, and an intricate part of many main articles. As such, logos actually ARE allowed on conference...and all...templates.
Furthermore, picture/logo use on templates is common on Wikipedia 192.160.62.60 18:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This is false. Please read Wikipedia:Fair use criteria item #9. The incluson of the logo is explicitly banned. Quoting the policy, "[fair use images] should never be used on templates (including stub templates and navigation boxes) or on user pages". Re-inserting the image is a violation of Wikipedia policy and constitutes a form of vandalism. Stop. --Durin 18:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC) To simplify matters: the policy states: "Fair use images should be used only in the article namespace. Used outside article space, they are often enough not covered under the fair use doctrine. They should never be used on templates (including stub templates and navigation boxes) or on user pages." Durin is wholly correct in this. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 20:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Fair Enough...but I think Wikipedia should look into changing this polcy. I mean, honestly, are the copyright police going to come after you for a Template?...there should be some discretion 66.30.130.133 22:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not much of one for rocking the boat; but I can see your point. I won't discourage anybody from trying to implement policy changes; I just prefer following it. /me shrugs. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 23:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC) "They wouldn't sue over this!" and similar arguments to support abuse of copyright is not an affirmative defense under fair use law. We must assume the institutions that hold copyrights to material are interested in protecting those copyrights unless we have proof otherwise. Thus, the fair use images must remain off of templates. --Durin 01:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC) I ask you both this...arn't we going against this policy: Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. We could improve this site, but instead we're worried about minor stuff. How do you go about asking for a policy change anyway? Lasallefan 18:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
First, WP:IAR is not policy, and even it were it it does not mean ignore all laws. Second, adding decorative images in violation of copyright law is not improving the site. Instead, it is placing it in danger of copyright/trademark lawsuits by the holders of copyrights who may be interested in defending their rights. It is most definitely not a "minor" thing to be sued. Even if Wikimedia won the case, the damage in fighting the lawsuit alone could be more than enough to shut this entire project down. Wikimedia does not have deep pockets. You can change policy by discussing potential changes on the talk page of the policy in question, or (probably better, for there is a larger audience) bringing up potential changes at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). But, be advised; the fair use policy is unlikely to change. --Durin 03:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
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end of discussion on a-10 template talk page...add comments below
Dear Administrator:
I, like you, am an editor; I create articles and make edits. But, many, I am sure many other people out there, are tired, frustrated and angry with the behavior of many Administrators. I am certain that it is appallingly easy to revert an article, that someone has undoubtedly spent allot of time and effort writing. I have, in the past spent hours, researching, planning, writing, checking and revising an addition to an article only to have the whole lot deleted forever three minutes afterwards.
I know that deletion of material is essential in a free-to-edit encyclopedia, but if you see an article that someone has anonymously devoted their time to writing, why could you not revise it, change it or give a reason for you action? They deserve one.
I know all Administrators are not all Drunk-With-Power-Trigger-Happy-Nazis, many of you do an excellent job and you know who you are.
In closing: Create, don’t Destroy. Make a distinction between “what is right, and what is easy”. Be enriched and enrich others with the knowledge of other people.
And keep that finger off the trigger.
Dfrg.msc 01:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps instituting something like a three vote rule on reverts? That would prevent unilateral action, and bad edits would still get reverted soon enough. RandomIdiot 14:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Down with Trigger Happy Admins! Solution: allow for a special new type of user called a "sentinel" that is greater than a basic user in authority. This new sentinel is not an administrator, and cannot block other users, but cannot be blocked either. The sentinel only has the ability to make 60 edits per day. The primary advantage to a sentinel is that the sentinel cannot be blocked by radical fringe administrators. Yet the sentinel's power is restricted to only 60 edits per day. This idea was a result of the extreme blocking related to these links:
Sure, sometimes there will be linkspam, and some sentinels that abuse their power, but administrators are not immune from the tyranical tendencies of those in authority. Spicynugget 14:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
I would like to open this issue for discussion.
I’ve been working in the field of Clinical Psychology for 40+ years. In Wikipedia, I was working on a technical Article concerning the psychological & physical components of chemical dependency. Almost from my first edit, I was reverted by a User whose only entry on their User Page was “OK, so I finally got a User Page. Satisfied?” This is moronic!! Because I refused to engage in what surely would have deteriorated into a mindless edit war, I finally gave up on editing the Article all together.
Surely there is something that can be done here.
I would propose this: If a User is going to make edits to an Article, particularly a technical or scientific one, that the person be willing to state their expertise in the given field on their User Page, or at least something more than a glib remark.
Wikipedia is losing good, highly motivated, professionals as editors because they have experienced what I described happened with me.
If something is not done, I’m afraid Wikipedia will soon need to carry a disclaimer at the top of its Main Page: “This encyclopedia is strictly for amusement, and should not be regarded as factual.”
Frustrated, Michael David 12:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
with all due respect, the replies above are useless bordering on the impertinent. "I personally don't think experts should get automatic veto power or whatever over non-experts"? Good for you, but how is this supposed to help Michael David? Did he inquire for "automatic veto power"? give us a break. "My suggestion is to just learn to deal with people who disagree with you"? Is this seriously the advice you have to offer to someone who has been into psychology for 40 years? (Have you even been into being alive that long?) Even bored gestures towards dispute resolution are not helpful here. The case described by the original poster is typical. A user having “OK, so I finally got a User Page. Satisfied?” has the only content on his user page is almost infallibly a sock puppet or a troll. Which means that smart assed remarks about how Wikipedia gives power to the people are entirely beside the point. My answer to this inquiry would be, 'drop me a line, and I'll look into the case and help you revert any trolling, thank you for helping improve Wikipedia'. You can save your generic wisdom for people who come here complaining about genuine editing dispute. Just being reverted by a stubborn sock is not an editing dispute, and any expert of any field experiencing this deserves some help from the community. thanks, dab (ᛏ) 17:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Taking a look at the edits of Michael David ( talk · contribs) is worthwhile. Most of the edits are to biographical articles of dead people. Many of those edits involve noting that someone died by suicide. See
That's just the past two days. Several hundred other edits by this editor show a fascination, if not obsession, with suicidal depression. There's no major technical article by this editor that I can find. -- John Nagle 18:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
On a general point about expert v non-expert editors, it's too facile to say that because of WP:V any editor is as good as another in technical areas. If we want a good, trustworthy article, letting someone who knows little of the subject quote a newspaper article or a popular book is no substitute for someone who really knows the sources, is probably more up-to-date than the popular items and can sort the wheat from the chaff.-- Brownlee 12:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
My 2 cents: I feel that being civil and talking it out, and bringing in people you trust to help, is a good choice in any wiki-war.
However, I'd like to point out that people with much more experience than me have been much more uncivil than me. There's User:Lulu of the Lotus Eaters, who uses ad hominem attacks on good-faith strangers despite his multitude of academic awards, there's user:Noesis, who worked in partnership with a very famous and respected academic, and yet became bitter when others made any addition to the article on that man( Leon Kass).
My point is that people can have bad habits with or without great qualifications.
Thus, I feel that the most important values on wikipedia should be to be act in good faith and to always try to learn and keep an open mind. Again, I feel that being civil and talking it out, and bringing in people you trust to help, is a good choice in any wiki-war. And if you know you're right, then more power to you.-- Zaorish 18:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
It appears that editors are now selecting portals for possible deletion on the grounds that a portal has not been given prior approval: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Thinking. Concern has been raised that this portal approval process does not have the wide consensus it appears to claim, and that it runs counter to the principles of Wikipedia - the essence of which is that this is a wiki which enables users to get involved immediately without registration or prior review. Tiresome though it is to tidy up vandalism and to correct mistakes, that is the price we have to pay for having a wiki. This portal approval process appears to be an example of creeping bureaucratic authority. If people feel that editors who are unsure if their portal is a good idea need somewhere to for for advice, perhaps the page could be renamed Wikipedia:Portal/Advice, and it made explicit and clear that there is no need to wait a week for approval. SilkTork 08:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Below I've transposed the Miscellany for Deletion nomination for the Portal Approval page. To participate in that discussion, click the edit button below and to the right: -- Transhumanist 03:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
(You may want to go to the MfD and restate that.) -- Transhumanist 03:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is continued on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Portal/Proposals, which includes my original reply to this forum.
Today's Gretzky FA on the frontpage has him categorized as Belarusian Canadian and Polish Canadian among other things. Innumerable US personalities are similarly categorized by ethnicity.
I tried to categorize British people of Bengali origin similarly with the category British-Bengalis. There are, to my knowledge, 11 such people articles on WP so far, all of which I tagged - Eenasul Fateh, Iqbal Ahmed, the two girls on Harry Potter, etc etc.
But for some reason, this was put to a VfD along with several others, and then deleted after a vote that barely recorded 10 votes in total - with at least 3 for. The deletionist gave all sorts of strange reasons for not categorizing British people by their ethnicity, few of which made much sense.
I also pointed out the policy of targetting small categories (although with 11 members, British-Bengalis was larger than most). The deletionist cleverly left out British Asians which is truly a large category, and which will have many backers if anyone ever puts it to the vote.
I have therefore two questions:
If anyone can clarify, I will be most grateful. I would like to know what official WP policy is, before a useful category dies a needless death.
-- Peripatetic 11:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Where can I review the CFD for this categorisation - on the face of it, it does seem an odd idea to delete such a category where we have "fictional armies" and the like roaming around. -- Charlesknight 14:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Does the wikipedia:Libel policy apply to statements of opinion on talk pages? For example, if I say on a talk page that in my opinion, a person (not a wikipedia editor) lied when s/he made a certain claim, may that statement be deleted as libel? Anonymous44 14:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I really would like a new policy in which the non-administrator user can protect his userspace (main userpage, talk, subpages, etc) from any potential vandalism, but wouldn't be able to protect any other pages on Wikipedia. Is this feasible? -- Revolución hablar ver 04:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
(From WT:CSD) I am thinking that it might be best to amend A8 and remove the requirement "Material is unquestionably copied from the website of a commercial content provider (e.g. encyclopedia, news service)." Currently, pages that are copyvios of materials from non-profit organizations take too long to process. People have to check if the article is a copyvio, blank the article, insert the {{copyvio}} template, and list the page on WP:CP. Then, a week later, somebody else has to verify that it is a copyvio and then speedy it. Given that there are an astronomical amount of copyvios, this can cause a lot of wasted time. Thoughts? -- Where 15:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
As it seems like we have reached a consensus to do so, I have modified WP:CSD with the changes. Feel free to revert me if you disagree that there is consensus here. -- Where 02:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to propose a change in policy for articles that are transwikied to wikibooks. Currently, articles that are transwikied from wikipedia are simply deleted, which has the unfortunate effect of also deleting the history of contributors (the history of a transwikied article on the WB side starts with the person who did the transwiking).
It seems to me that these histories should be preserved, both as a way of acknowledging the contributions, and perhaps to give WB editors a way to find source material if the article on WP lacked citations (i.e., we would at least know who to ask). I don't think this would cause much of a problem on the WP side, because very few articles are successfully transwikied to WB, though this may be in part because the contributors to the article don't realize that it has been transwikied (and articles that are transwikied and "abandoned" at wikibooks are soon deleted).
So I propose the following:
SB Johnny 18:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Template:Hotu ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) - A template to link articles to Home of the Underdogs. A legitimate site, perhaps, and contains lots of information - but it also contains copyrighted material, abandonware versions of games. Now, the site is no secret - and if the companies wanted their work pulled, I'm sure it would have been already. But the question remains, should we be linking to these so people can download them? -- Golbez 06:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I just started an AfD on List of Logan City suburbs. This is simply a list of the suburbs of Logan City, Queensland. What's policy on this? A list of suburbs seems the wrong tool for the job. And it would take tens of thousands of articles like this to cover the world.
How should atlas data like that be represented? We really need more map support ("Wikipedia Earth?") for this kind of thing. -- John Nagle 06:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Do we need both of these systems. They do the same thing, and having two only serves to confuse. --GW_Simulations |User Page | Talk | Contribs | E-mail 09:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I have been editing Wikipedia for about a year (I think!), and until a fortnight ago all I ever did was add and modify articles and surf it for info. Up to that point I had nothing negative to say about Wikipedia. I still think it's a marvellous concept and an extremely useful reference tool, far superior than any other encyclopedia. Best of all, it's free at the point of use, so knowledge is not limited by budget. I have every intention of carrying on playing a part in it, as the free proliferation and preservation of knowledge is a cause I am deeply committed to.
There is however another side, one of which I was blissfully ignorant until one day I visited my Sharon Janis article and found it vanished. Since then I have been learning fast about policies, administrators, AfD's, deletion reviews, and the inner workings of Wikipedia generally. It has been a profoundly upsetting stressful and time-consuming experience. I never expected to end up fighting a crusade against a massive bureaucracy.
Whilst I've had other articles removed, I could see good reasoning behind them. With the Sharon Janis article, I found myself having to fight hard to justify the blatantly justifiable, whereas some of my other articles about far more obscure subjects have never been questioned. Whilst this is undoubtedly the encyclopedia everyone can edit, it's also the encyclopedia where at any time, anyone's prejudice can strike out information someone else gave up time and energy to contribute. I am not convinced that reality matches policy. The policy is sound, but what happens in practice is that ego, personal prejudices, feelings pride and emotions inevitably come into play. What is happening in reality is that articles that are rubbish but no one cares about could survive indefinitely, but those where someone has a personal dislike or pejudice get nominated for the chop. The victims in this are articles which whilst not perfect have merit but have the misfortune to be read by someone with a bee in their bonnet. Fortunately, those curious enough about deleted articles can often go to Google and find out about the subject that way, but I don't think they should have to.
I see from the forums I have visited that I have become just another aggrieved editor who has seen hard work removed without a full reasonable and justifiable explanation. It is a lot easier to remove an article than defend one, as I have painfully discovered, and that is not right. I have far better things to do with my precious time than spend countless hours on procedures, forums and jargon, but so deep is my passion for what I believe that I have gritted my teeth and waded headlong into this bewildering cyberworld.
To sum up, Wikipedia is a marvellous creation which I'm glad I discovered, but it is far too easy for articles to be removed. I don't mind anyone appealing for a deletion, but an editor or administrator should have to work at least as hard in removing an article as I've had to in defending one. The power to delete is too widely spread amongst God knows how many administrators and therefore too easily the cause of micarriages of justice. As for the deletion review, it is a lottery depending on who reads your article and the review. The power to delete should instead be concentrated into a panel of ten highly experienced committed users who require a minimum 8-2 verdict to remove an article with a full given reasoning from each member. Above them should be a tribunal with powers to overturn in the light of fresh evidence. Even then articles should be re-admitted anyway if suitably modified in a way dictated by the tribunal.
I will go on using, contributing and (very reluctantly) participating in discussions on Wikipedia, but after the last fortnight I will do so with a heavier heart. Headshaker 15:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Headshaker 05:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Any editor in good standing with some contribution history to show value to the encyclopedia is always welcome to ask any admin for an article to be userified (copied or moved to their user space). I get and (after review for suitability, see my user pages for guidelines) grant such requests all the time, and so do many other editors. If an article you are working on is deleted and you think it's salvagable, ask that it be userified, work on it some more, seek advice from interested editors and once you've improved it to address the concerns raised in the AfD, move it back. If it's been substantially improved it will not be automatically speedied as a recreation of deleted content. Railing against process will not get you sympathy, though... this process works pretty well and has general consensus... Hope that helps, and happy editing! ++ Lar: t/ c 17:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Have a look at this edit. A basic and easily checkable fact in the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom article (the salary) was not updated. This is the sort of thing that justifiably gives Wikipedia a bad reputation. What is the point of saying that our articles can be more up-to-date than others, when no-one checks to see if they are up-to-date? This was all the worst for appearing in a featured article linked from the Main Page. Can processes please be put in place to stop this happening again? Carcharoth 23:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite clear on what the difference is between Original Research and Rephrasing or Reasoning something. My example is slightly obscure, but is the best I can come up with at the moment. If say, no-one anywhere had published something saying that the District Line had the most number of stations on the London Underground (this 'factoid' has been published, but for the sake of argument let's say that only the number of stations on each line had been published). Would it then be Original Research to look at a list of the number of stations on each line and say "The District Line has the most number of stations". To me this is similar to the "deductive reasoning" section above (which concerned deducing people's nationality), but this is a clearer case of deductive reasoning. Other cases I can think of include saying things like "team Y is the first team to have won trophy X by this scoreline since 1860". This sort of thing is verifiable, but if it hasn't been published elsewhere, the only way to verify it is for the reader to go and check various lists and see if this is true. So where is the line drawn between rephrasing and representing a set of facts and maybe adding some obvious deductive reasoning, and this process becoming Original Research? A similar process would be seen for the process of rewriting and rephrasing things from a source. Where is the line drawn between summarising several sources (which is one of the prime purposes of a tertiary source like an encyclopedia), and synthesising those sources in such a way that (maybe accidentally) new connections and insights are revealed about the topic? Carcharoth 00:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I can see endless scope for arguments about whether something is an obvious and trivial deduction from published facts (when it would be silly to call it NOR) or not. To me, the District Line example is a trivial deduction, and I would accept it even if there were controversy; others would disagree. Almost certainly, it will often come down to whether it offends someone's POV.-- Brownlee 11:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't receive a response to my ANI post about this, so I've decided to post here. I'm after community support to run a script to convert tor blocks to AnonOnly NoCreate. The source code of this script, which has worked as expected on my own wiki (see [11]), will be available on request. I would suggest that this script run on a botflagged account, as it will otherwise flood recent changes with 250-odd block and unblock combinations at a rate of approximately ten unblock/block combinations per minute. I do not currently have a sysop bit, so the account would need to be hit with a sysop bit. Issues to be resolved:
Input is welcome. Werdna (talk) 10:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Anything that encourages people to have a named account seems like a good idea. AGF: why shouldn't a non-admin maintain the script? I assume that people can check it if they wish. I can't see any reason not to run it regularly.-- Runcorn 19:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
If the community doesn't go for the commuting of the blocks, I have no problem running the script simply to update our existing Tor blocks. Werdna (talk) 10:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Does WP need separate standards on when to delete articles about micronations or are WP:ORG and WP:WEB good enough? Micronations are defined in the WP article on them as "eccentric and ephemeral in nature, and are often created and maintained by a single person or family group" and thus seem to be by definition, without anything else, non-notable. Anyone can start one by declaration and most of them do not exist outside of one person's website. The ones that are mentioned in the article were mostly notable as part of a political movement. What should the standards be for retaining such articles? It seems that at a minimum the micronation should have some sort of significance outside of the political movement to which it is related. Also, is there any way to speedy delete these? Forming a micronation is like forming a band (easier in fact, as you don't have to be able to play an instrument), but without more, why do we care? JChap ( talk • contribs) 17:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems to be general practice to put stubs and cats at the end of articles, but is there any rule about which comes first? I notice that bots often swap them round, but with no clear preference as to order.-- Runcorn 19:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
WileyPublishing ( talk · contribs), who has identified on the User Talk page as a summer intern for Wiley Publishing company, which publishes the Cliffs Notes, made edits to numerous articles for classic novels to add a link to a Cliffs Notes page for that work. The edits have been reverted as linkspam and the user has been blocked from posting.
The content at each page seems to be, for free, the full contents of the Cliffs Notes that many of us paid money for in high school when we hadn't read the book. These were not generic linkspam, but were specific links to the notes for each novel.
The suggestion has been made that there may be some value in allowing these links to stay as a useful resource relevant to each book. On the other hand, this is a commercial site and the pages do have some advertising content on them, so these links would help draw viewers to these pages and these ads. On the other hand (yep, a lot of hands here) we do direct people to other sites (IMDB, for example) which have some advertising content, though maybe not as much.
There is some discussion of the issue on the user talk page.
Could people take a look at some of the content referenced by the links (see: Special:Contributions/WileyPublishing)? What do people think? Are these links we should allow, or should it be forbidden as linkspam? Fan-1967 20:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
User was blocked for an inappropriate username, not for adding the links. He had already added them as 12.149.50.2 ( talk · contribs) and they had been reverted, but he was not given a warning. He then registered as WileyPublishing and added them again. The 12.149.50.2 address is registered to John Wiley in New Jersey, according to this. User was warned with {{ spam}} at 16:09 (UTC), [13] and ignored the message and posted four more links [14] [15] [16] [17]. Only after he was blocked did he say he was working for Wiley and Sons. [18] AnnH ♫ 21:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
What's the best thing to do with debate on talk pages which is not about page content and is clearly not productive (e.g. a debate on Talk:Roman Catholic Church based on an anonymous assertion that the Roman Catholic Church isn't Christian)? While it's there it attracts responses and distracts from the purpose of the page; but I've been a bit loath to just delete sections of talk pages. Should it just be deleted? Left alone? Marked as 'closed' in some way (like how debates which have reached a concensus are marked as closed)? TSP 20:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
For thoose interested, see here for a discussion about the interaction between policies such as WP:CON and WP:NPOV when partisan motives are playing the first fidle. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#What to do if a move poll is determined by partisan reasons.3F. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 09:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I am starting to see a lot of comments from editors who see lists as redundant with categories. See, for example, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superfluous game lists. Setting aside the specific issue (i.e. that the lists being discussed there aren't terribly useful ones) my understanding is that lists and categories are encouraged to operate side-by-side, and are not redundant with each other. Surely a list does several useful things a category cannot do, most importantly including items which do not yet have a Wikipedia article and items which would not justify having one. Is that not correct? Or is it one of those major wikipedia controversies like deletionism -vs- inclusionism. Do we have prolistists and antilistists? And if so, how do I join the first camp? AndyJones 12:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Lists can be classified and annotated. Thus a list of Nobel Prizewinners could be split into sections showing which Nobel Prize it was, and annotated with a short summary of why they won it, if it was shared, etc. The former can be done with a hierarchy of categories, but this is cumbersome. The latter cannot be done at all with categories; you can read each article, but that's very time-consuming.-- Runcorn 19:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Which village pump would be appropriate for discussing a guideline? -- GunnarRene 14:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I recently added some links to Aura (paranormal) and someone removed them. The links I posted were related to Aura (paranormal) and was wondering why they were removed. I would like to put the links back on the site since they are related to the page. I would appreciate some imput. Thanks. John R G 17:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes you are correct but they are Aura related and therefore should not be removed. Am I correct? If I am wrong tell me why. John R G 18:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Can someone point me to policy regarding users removing material that is backed up by article references? Also, is it enough to have references at the bottom, or do you need to implement the awkward ref/cite syntax for it to be considered cited? - Keith D. Tyler ¶ ( AMA) 18:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to upload an image of a Chinese character that I found on the web. It seems to me a Chinese character cannot be copyrighted, just as you cannot copyright the letter 'A'. I seem to recall an entire font can be copyrighted but not an individual letter. Is this correct? And if so, what do I select when choosing the copyright status of the uploaded image? -- Ideogram 23:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
U.S. copyright laws regarding fonts are really bizzare. There is some legal precedence that suggests that fonts are uncopyrightable, under the argument that the owner of a popular font could seriously restrict the freedom of speech if he/she had complete economic control over all uses of the font. Presumably, if you could copyright a font, you could also control exactly how and in what manner any written content was expressed when that font was used. And has been in the past. From this perspetive, showing Wikipedia using propritary fonts like this is a violation of the GFDL and illegal, provided the font is copyrighted. Courts have clearly ruled that font designers can't control how the characters are used in terms of combinations of characters.
Now it gets even more bizzare as some font data files are considered algorithms, hence copyrightable as computer software. So the font data file (like a true type font) is copyrightable, although raster images of the font are still perfectly legal to copy (such as in an advertisement). I think it is from this perspetive that the raster scanned image is perhaps going to be legitimate. However in this situation, to make things very simple for copyright purposes, you should be the one who "renders" the character and makes the image. Don't just "steal" the image from another website. If you need to have a good free (as in beer, not copyleft) Chinese character font, please see Code2000 for links to the website. Most of the Plane-0 Chinese characters are in that font. There are other Chinese character fonts, some of higher quality, but expect to pay through the nose to be able to obtain them. If you already have the font... good for you. -- Robert Horning 21:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This article appears to be based on Wikipedia's own article (probably before some random editors did a hack job on our article). I would like to copy this article back to Wikipedia. Could there be a copyright problem or is the fact that it is based on GFDL Wikipedia material prevent that? -- Ideogram 00:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Article: Template:MLB_HoF
Controversy: Usage of official HoF logo; fair-use vs. permitted use
Background:
Sometime in the past, a small tag-type template was created to be used on the article pages of members of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. This template originally included the official logo.
After some initial controversy regarding the simple necessity of the template, an editor began making the "FUC" argument, removing the template.
Soon, the template re-emerged, and in this iteration, the official logo was replaced by an unattractive photograph of the front doors of the HoF.
Two VfDs were attempted, during which the template was frequently shuffled between the unsightly picture, and the official logo, on the basis of fair-use images being non-permissible.
A staff member of the HoF was contacted, and permission granted under standard HoF policies (they allow editorial usage of the logo) and that staff member's office telephone number was posted in the discussion page.
I understand the intended scope of the policy, and, in my opinion, this is well outside it both legally and morally. This is a relatively unimportant template content-wise, but, to someone researching baseball and its players for the first time, a small tag indicating HoF membership serves as a quick, at-a-glance way to determine the career performance of a given player, and has survived *two* VfDs because of that fact.
Since the VfD's combined with the simultaneous revision of the template were rather obviously aimed at forcing a stylistic point, rather than truly a content one, I'd like to see this matter discussed in a wider forum than has been so far attempted. A few admins are strongly asserting their own interpretations of posted policies, the most pertinent of which is both contradictory and specifically mentions case-by-case exemptions.
I hereby open this discussion with a request for consensus and clarification on this triflingly insignificant matter.
(Note: Permission ahs been sought, and granted, by the HoF, however, certain administrators have expressed concern that this permitted use might not hold in the face of potential commercial editions of wikipedia content. The office telephone number of the HoF staffmember detailed to answer such requests has been posted publicly, probably an incredible nuisance to the aforementioned staffmember. The phone number rings busy during non-office-hours as of 7-19-2006. Accordingly, official clarification will be required as to the types of proofs required under FUC policies.) Ender78 05:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
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We really should not be worried about copyrighted pictures from government sights. These are COPYRIGHTED PICTURES from a GOVERNMENTAL SOURCE im talking about here. This source could be department of defence, department of economics, or department of face-painting. ITS FROM THE GOVERNMENT. ITS AUTOMATICALLY FAIR USE YOU .. im not going to say it. The editors on here just seem to want to block anything that is on the internet but thats IMPOSSIBLE because to display something on the internet it obvioulsy has to come, at some point.. FROM THE INTERNET. Dont you get it?
WTH is wrong with you guys?
Id like a fair response to my question please. Jeremy D. 19:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Itchy01ca ( talk • contribs) .
Rather than list every article listed on
List of people by nationality for AfD, I think it would be easier to have one AfD for them all. Also, the only reason one would be deleted and not all of them is if people with different veiws on notablity voted on them. Without knowing about the rest, I listed
List of Iranians for AfD. As of now, it looks like it would be deleted under the reasoning that it is unmaintainable and could be a category. That would apply to all lists in List of people by nationality. But how to go about this? Would I put an AfD notice on all of them and have them be redirected to one AfD? I would like to get input on how to do it as well as support before I do this. An suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
Wikibout-
Talk to me! 23:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
It now seems it will be kept so I withdraw this suggestion. Wikibout- Talk to me! 14:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe that before a 3RR complaint can be considered, the editor allegedly violating 3RR should be notified of the complaint. I have seen discussions go on about a user who has no idea that they are being discussed and have no idea that there is a rule such as the 3RR. I'm speaking from experience, as I was blocked when I first started editing for violating 3RR, and had no idea about the rule, had not been warned, and had no idea that someone had submitted my name to this page. It wou;dn't be that hard to notify people that are reported here. What does everyone think? Ch u ck (contrib) 01:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd say on most 3RR violations it's not necessary. It's a case of...
But perhaps on 3RR violations that involve debate the user should be notified. Hmmm... something to think about. -- Lord Deskana I VALUE YOUR OPINIONS 21:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a long list of ethnicity nominations heating up at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 3.
We need a firm policy on this for Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories).
This needs clear policy and forceful enforcement. We have a real problem with racism among some of the editors.
For example, folks with 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 Black ancestry are again being categorized as "African-American" without any verifiability. I don't want to go back to the days where folks were called " mulatto", " quadroon" and " octaroon". It's certainly not appropriate for a modern encyclopedia.
Another example:
I find the racist sentiment repugnant. It is contrary to current practices. For notable examples in the popular media:
Are there any existing Proposed guidelines or policy or essays? I'm planning on writing a new one, and it would be helpful to know where the previous attempts have been made.
If folks could point me at past discussion, I will try to formulate something in the next few days. Thank you.
Can we not have this Jewish vs. everyone else thing again? If you have this opinion, good for you, but must you share it time and again? Not only is it incorrect, it can be offensive to certain people. If a white supremacy site calls him Jewish, obviously we can't use them (We can't use them for sources on anything other than themselves, anyway). If a reliable publication calls him Jewish, we can too, pending a source that explicitly says he isn't (and the same is true for anyone else, obviously). Mad Jack 18:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
You two are filling volumes here and don't seem to be making any progess. Might I suggest taking this to a dedicated page somewhere and perhaps request an impartial mediator to try to help things along. FWIW, I think I disagree with both of you. To Arniep, I agree that self-identification is somewhat problematic, which is why I would insist on verifiable self-identification. Essentially, would not only have to self-identify with a heritage, but would also have to have some verifiable evidence for the claim. Note that is is about categorization. As I replied above, there's no problem with having attributed statements in articles (regardless of whether someone self-identifies), but I think it is inappropriate to label anyone through categories as having a particular heritage if they do not self-identify with that heritage. For historical persons, there would have to be verifiable evidence not only of biological heritage, but also that that heritage played some signficant role in the person's life. older ≠ wiser 18:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
What is the policy of commercial links where an editor claims they are based on review of films? Namely in the article Erik Rhodes (porn star) there are numerous links both as External links and under Filmography that are to commercial sites for selling pornography. I would just like to know what guideline is expected here. Thanks. Doc 08:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Since WP:NC moved from being a guideline to a policy it can potentially come into conflict with WP:NPOV. If this subject is of interest to you please share your opinions at WP talk:NC#NPOV and naming convention conflicts -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
The guideline linked above has been proposed to establish notability standards for books. I invite the community to visit the project page and make comments on its discussion page.-- Fuhghettaboutit 21:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Talk:99942 Apophis.
While Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Is deductive reasoning original research? is not an example of a reasonable deductive inference, this was discussed recently on Wikipedia talk:No original research under the heading Reasonable inference, and there was also a recent question on section Mathematics that happens to be related. The fact is that unless an article is going to have identical sentences as its sources, some sort of deduction is being made. Synthesis is necessary for creating an article from multiple sources. The mathematics relation is that, here, we have an example of pure deduction under the rules of mathematics—which are verifiable—and a situation where simple demonstrative proofs cannot be made without either making those deductions or duplicating text from elsewhere. — Centrx→ talk • 06:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
We can not have any "criteria", other than the source calling the person X-American, which is the "criteria" for any Wikipedia article - repetition of what a good source said specifically on that person/subject. On a list called Irish American Plaigarists, the person needs to have been referred as 1. Irish 2. American and 3. Plaigarist. If there are sources that refer to the person as two of those things in the same sentence, the better for us. In the case of the person being called these three things in three different places, we are not making any synthesis, but still repetition. I.e. if something says "Person A owns a dog" and then "Person A owns a cat", when we sat "Person A owns a dog and a cat" this is an exact repetition that means the same thing as the original version - no need for looking up a definition and attachin a term, which is what the translating of X father to the person themselves being X-American would entail. It's all in the translation. If we have to go look up a definition, that's OR. Mad Jack 15:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but as has been said, Wikipedia does not make up any criteria for inclusion for anything, much less based on "Blood". Doesn't matter how much of what their father, mother, or great-grandmother was. Just like we don't have criteria for what is or is not plaigarism. If a source said it was plaigarism, we quote it. If not, not. Same thing here. Mad Jack 08:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Hotel articles are particularly spam-prone and a number of articles have been created about fairly unknown hotels. Since precedents on AfDs have generally established that touristic information should be on WikiTravel, I've been trying to draft a guideline for the notability of hotels to ensure that the new articles created have some encyclopedic value. Comments would be greatly appreciated. Pascal.Tesson 15:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I recently found that a list article that I maintain was deleted per the following discussion: see the AfD discussion. Doesn't it seem like a bad idea to delete the list before the category is created? I'm specifically referring to the fact that all the state-specific lists (bands and musicians) were deleted. Those pages were not "a yellow pages for musicans", they were useful tools. It's too bad that warning can't or won't be given to the people who have a stake in articles that have been nominated for deletion. And when a page is deleted, who should take responsibility to fix all the redlinks that are left behind? - Freekee 16:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I just mixed up my internal and external linking tagging. Thanks, I fixed it. The thing is, I did have the list article on my watchlist, and watched it very closely. There was no mention of an AfD on the talk page - it was just gone, one day. But yeah, they don't need to notify the frequent editors if they mention it on the talk page. Is every editor with a stake in an article supposed to watch the AfD page? The other big problem is that the list was not redundant to a category because no such category exists! No, it's not disgouraging, it's just annoying, and I'm hoping we can find a way to make sure these sorts of things don't happen again. In this case, it was laziness on the part of the noms. The list mentioned above was a list of lists. When they deleted "list of US musicians", they also deleted the sub list for each state. And also the related "lists of (state) bands". So that was over 100 articles. I can see why nobody wanted to tag all of those lists, but that's no excuse. And since the list pages have been deleted, I can't even look them up in order to populate the categories. It's frustrating. - Freekee 19:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Grateful for comments on my suggestion at [4]-- Runcorn 20:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The legal position in some countries (I am thinking of Ireland, where the libel laws are ferocious) is such that it probably does represent a threat to Wikipedia. Never mind the editing environment, that is far from the main worry - you have to be able to let people remove or amend offensive articles, or you are contributing to the damage by continuing to publish the libel. However, I suggest a variety of ways around this;
Make it a condition of use (including reading) that any disputes are settled under the law of a free speech jurisdiction like the US
Make it a condition of use that disputes are the subject of arbitration rather than law - Wikipedia providing the arbitrator
Permitting a "Two sides of the story" article until the dispute is resolved. -- Jpmills 11:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there a way to resolve a content dispute at Wikipedia? I do not mean the simple case if users found a compromise after a discussion or a mediation. The question is about a more complicated case, i.e. if the discussion failed to resolve the dispute, the RfC brought opposite views, one of the parties refused mediation.
According to WP:DR, the last resort is Arbitration, but ArbCom usually does not consider content disputes. It seems there is no way at all to resolve content disputes in complicated cases. Finally, the solution depends on which of the two sides of the dispute is more numerous and persistent and is able to "win" the edit war.
I would appreciate the comments of experienced WP editors.-- AndriyK 13:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
In certain cases content is decided by brute strength. In others by cleverly playing the dispute resolution game. Neither is legitimate. Fred Bauder 20:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
One of the central issues of recent discussion around fair use, and I think a difficult question, is whether the uploader should be required to judge whether media is admittable under fair use prior to uploading. The two sides seem to go something like this:
I'm not sure what the best solution is. Maybe there could be some kind of compromise solution in which new fair use images are uploaded to a "fair use queue" where they are not to be used until they are processed by a reviewer (ideally, the software would enforce that they are not used). I like this solution because I don't really think uploaders will listen to anything we say. Any other feedback or suggestions would be appreciated though. Deco 18:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
There's a problem if something is genuinely used for fair use in one place then used somewhere else in an unfair way.-- Runcorn 22:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed alot lately on Sci-Fi and video game pages, that people are using the term " race" instead of " species". e.x. Klingon race. This is incorrect, as race is like a sub-division of species. If the Klingons are a race, then what species are they from? Human? I have had to clear this problem up with the Mortal Kombat Wikiproject. I think people may be getting the term "race" mixed up with "species" because of the slang term "human race", which is like I said; is slang and isn't Encyclopedic. I think that Wikipedia should make a stand on this issue, so that the correct terms are used. SilentRage 00:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
"Race" is commonly used in fictional genres with alien elements, including fantasy and role-playing games. None of the races exist in reality, and the story lines may not clearly establish any of them as species that can reproduce with others of the same species, under the modern biological definition. Klingons can produce offspring with humans and in one of the episodes all of the Alpha Quadrant races were descendents of the same species; half-orcs are a partial race of orcs with different properties. What race always means in this context is a distinct class of characters with different properties. Klingons are violent and brave; elves have +1 Magic or something.
Ultimately, even aside from this meaning in the genre, in English, race still means "A tribe, nation, or people, regarded as of common stock." The zoological meaning of "species" is not what is meant here and is irrelevant. It is only a specialized application to humans that the human species is divided into three races. I don't know how exactly this applies in Mortal Kombat, but in other applications it is standard and appropriate to refer to the elements as races, and there is nothing wrong with that in English. — Centrx→ talk • 10:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Two creatures of different species can mate. Wolves and Dogs anyone? If two things can mate, it just means that they are genetically compatible enough for it to work. It doesn't mean that they are nessessarily within the same species. One of the reasons I brought this up is because calling different species, different races is slang. It's based on the whole "human race" slang term. I think that it screwed alot of people up, when it comes to the definitions of those two words. The second (and probably less) reason is because it may be offensive to alot of people. Think of all of the racial groups who read that different species are just different races, and the human species is one race. It just takes away their identity, and can become very offensive, even though it's not real. SilentRage 03:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the distinction, whether intentional or not, seems to be that "animal-like" creatures: wargs, dewbacks, etc. are referred to as species, while reasonably intelligent bipedal "human-like" creatures: Klingons, Ithorians, orcs are referred to as a race. -- Canley 03:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
The Concise Oxford Dictionary gives, as one meaning of race, "a genus, species, breed, or variety of animals, plants, or micro-organisms". A genus is of course a whole group of species.-- Runcorn 22:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Missing the point completely, the point isn't what's "right" - it's what's you can verify, from WP:VERIFY:
{{Associations/Wikipedia Bad Things}}
Thanks/ wangi 09:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
But COD agrees with the sci-fi usage: both say that a race can mean a species. And how does it violate WP:NOR?-- Runcorn 10:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I know that some people don't bother signing up for an account and edit via their IP address. I feel that their user and discussion pages should be blocked as it is not necessary that they are able to be edited due to the fact that IP addresses change all the time. It would be better if they actually signed up for an account. Thoughts?
If this is in the wrong spot then please move it. Mr. C.C. ( talk <-> contribs) ( review me) 04:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
A condition exists that has the potential to degrade the value of links in an article. Many links exist that have no relevancy to the article or specific part of an article that contains the link.
I don't have a solution. I know that an author should not be held to check the relevancy of every link placed in his article "automatically", however. On the other hand I have yet to encounter an irrelevant link in my Encyclopaedia Britannica 2006 Ult Ref Suite. Some may feel that what EB does is irrelevant but there is a need for some policing of links for relevancy. As the percentage of relevant links declines people will not want to be following wild geese, reading linked articles that may not be relevant.
I recently posted this example -- Dogfish 18:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone has asserted that, in principle, once an incident has been referenced in hundreds of news articles, it must go into an article and that any scrutiny of the content is improper.
I counter that the Wikipedia is different from a newspaper which reports all the rumors, speculation, etc. before the dust has a chance to settle. Since the content is intended to be permanent, there's always a filter around how transient or insignificant a story is — even if the threshold of hundreds of references in news articles is met. I think that the "hundreds of references in news articles" is only a starting point and neither necessary nor sufficient. patsw 00:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've proposed a few guidelines on responding to RfCs. Please comment on the talk page. SB Johnny 10:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello all,
I'm confronted to a policy problem that follows:
I would like to write an article about a personality. Up to a certain point of his life (until he became famous), there are not much sources about him except his own memoirs. It is an OK reference for writing a (preferably good :) article?
Thanks! -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 11:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, I will be more precise. The person in question is a Soviet military commander during WWII. Obviously, until he became quite important several years before WWII, the only source of information about him (his childhood and his participation in First WW) are his memoires, who were published several times by various Soviet (now Russian) editors. Can those be considered as a reliable source regarding this part of his life?
And thanks for replies you already made, they're really important to me! :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've added a new template, {{ Suspected impostor}}, for reporting suspected impostor accounts which have not been blocked. I did this because:
-- EngineerScotty 02:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
You are all probably aware of this, but by typing a few select keywords into the search function, you can find many deletion-worthy spam articles.
Today I typed in "company leverage solution" & got a torrent of IT company articles (some of which apparently were already deleted). I AfD'd five of them before I ran out of energy.
Some other good keywords (use several together) to find spam, and spammishness:
enterprise optimize website news information scaleable deliver touchpoint integration manage
If you want to find neologisms, type in:
term coined
-- Cheese Sandwich 03:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
This will likely be an obvious question that I should already know the answer to, but please bear with me. An IP user, formerly blocked for an hour for straw poll rallying, has stated he is "not coming back" and has blanked his talk page. His IP is in an address pool. Am I justified in reverting the blanking? I have searched for official policy on this, but the closest I found was at Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism, which doesn't clearly define whether comments surrounding a dispute (mainly statements clarifying the block, the user begging for unblocking, and other users responding to the rallying) qualify as warnings; there were no {{test}} templates used. -- Omicronpersei8 ( talk) 04:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
JA: Like any WP:Policy or Guideline whose fair and equal enforcement would depend on knowing the real-world identity and affiliations of each editor in question, the aspects of WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:VER, and WP:SPAM that deal with advancing particular purposes are simply null and void. Just f'r'instance, nobody has any way of knowing for sure whether that editor or that cabal of evatars who are so insistent about imposing the POV of their favorite secondary source on an article is in fact the author or publisher of the work in question. What will be the result of attempting to enforce a WikiProvision of this type — and I use the word "vision" blindly? The editors who are honest enough to use their real names will be at the disadvantage of the editors, their agents, and their evatars who are not. WikiPar for the course, of course. Jon Awbrey 18:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
JA: If people are failing to recognize the problem then that is par for the course in WP. Just for instance, let us say that an editor with the WikiPseudonym of GodsOwnTruth has a curious insistence on citing a particular book as the main authority on every subtopic of a given article. Let's say that 2 or 3 other editors concur in this opinion and are thus able to declare a "consensus" that trumps any attempt to balance the account. I myself know of several cases just like this. Please don't tell me how it's s'posed to work. I already know how it's s'posed to work. I also know how it actually works out in practice. And there is a real problem here, whether you recognize it or choose to deny it. Jon Awbrey 03:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
JA: Well, thanks for explaining why there's a block-hole icon at the top of the page. It's pretty clear that no policy changes ever come out of water-cooler chit-chat, but I'm sure it provides a useful distraction for those who need the distraction. Yes, I've seen how your WQAs, RFCs, CP3Os, and R2D2s work. They are about as useful as crying in your beer, except for the part about the beer. If you can't see that there's a differential advantage to someone who writes a book in the real world under his or her real name and uses a WikiPseudonym (or several) to promote the POV of that book in WP articles, and someone who uses his or her real name in both the real world and in this, er, unreal world, then "I fear that your judgment is beyond repair", to quote Mel Gibson. Jon Awbrey 04:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
The Template:Unblockabuse deletion debate moved to WP:DRV. -- Omniplex 00:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
For the last month, myself and 1-2 other individuals have been jumpstarting a massive cleanup project as an attempt to bring order to Wikipedia. I think I have the methodology sorted out: now we need participants. There are more details on the project page. Thank you. Cwolfsheep 12:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I've looked all over trying to figure this out but I can't seem to find it. Can I upload images which were published in a peer-reviewed journal like Physical Review? One example that I would like to upload is this plot from [6] for the Standard Solar Model page. There are several other instances in which the scientific results from an experiment are nicely summed up in a plot that has been published, and it would help the article considerably to include it. Are such images ok if you cite the source? (By the source I mean the peer-reviewed article itself, not the website mentioned above.) If so, what copyright status tag should one use? Flying fish 18:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I should mention that I had intended to get the images from the arxiv, rather than from the journals themselves (for which you need a subscription, maybe that should tell me something...) Flying fish 19:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to all of you for your comments! I've noticed that someone asked something similar directly on the Talk:ArXiv page. If someone with a good understanding of fair use weighs in and says it's ok it would be great if we could add a fair use template for images published on the ArXiv, or perhaps more generally for images demonstrating scientific results (if that is indeed ok). Flying fish 01:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Curious as to policy about linking to sites with embedded YouTube-hosted videos. My hunch is that it would be better to simply link directly to the video at YouTube.com rather than the intermediate site (assuming the embedded page itself provides no additional/immediate relevant content). This policy would alleviate any concerns about endorsing the site, advertising, etc per WP:EL. For example, if a blog happens to have a video of the Napolean Dynamite dance embedded in it, should the Napolean Dynamite aricle link to that blog page, or directly to the YouTube-hosted video? (A possible hitch might be if the site-owner is also the creator on the content, who just is using YouTube as the hosting service). Thoughts? -- mtz206 ( talk) 01:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what this page is actually for? I'm not criticising the speedy-delete policy, just this specific page. The problem is that speedy deletions are done via {{db-whatever}} and CAT:CSD, and disputed via {{ hangon}} and the article's talk page, so Wikipedia:Speedy deletions doesn't really get a look-in. The main policy description page for speedy-deletion seems to be WP:CSD. -- ais523 16:38, 10 July 2006 ( U T C)
The community seems to be quite divided over the matter of ethics and morality in wikipedia, as evidenced by the rejection of Wikipedia:Wikiethics, Wikipedia:NOT evil, WP:EVIL, and Wikipedia:Beyond Good and Evil. i have tried to create a policy that incorporates all viewpoints and concerns, based on [9] and some of User:Herostratus's reasons for WP:NE. This policy does not endorse objective morality, or impose an ideology on wikipedia, which some believed would lead to censorship, and it asks editors to set aside their personal morality and philosophy in the interest of neutrality and information when on wikipedia, but it also states that wikipedia should not cause unessecary harm. please tell me what you think on the talk page. -- Samael775 19:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is it still not possible to review my own deleted contributions? Not the content itself, but just the names of the articles the contributions were to?
I have already asked that in March, and received the answer that it's a technical issue, namely that reviewing deleted contibutions is an "everyone or noone" permission.
AFAICT, currently the fine-grained control over the permissions is implemented in MediaWiki and used on Japanese wikipedia.
So, why do you still conceal from users their own contributions? -- tyomitch 01:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Type in "List of fictional" in the search function. You will get a bewildering number of inane lists such as List of fictional chimpanzees, List of Fictional Nurses, List of fictional cigarettes, etc. Three questions:
I've just AfD'd one such list, List of fictional military organizations, only to discover the true extent of these... Your thoughts? Thanks- -- Cheese Sandwich 04:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
It's always good to come to a debate and already see my opinion brushed off as that of a "listcruft deletionist".
The problem with many of these lists is that they illustrate no topic; instead, they're merely a list of things that share an attribute. In the case of List of fictional military organizations, there's nothing you can really say about these things other than that they're fictional military organizations. The list is so broad as to include warrior castes and defense forces and police forces and terrorist groups and individual army companies and espionage cells and...well, you get the idea.
Likewise the list of pigs; that list has such inane criteria that it includes Porky Pig, a character anthropomorphized to the point where his porcine nature is almost never referred to in the context of the fictional works (and this is in something like 60 or 70 years of fiction from many disparate sources!), to Cartman's pot-bellied pig, who is clearly a mundane pet whose only attribute of note is completely unrelated to being a pig to characters who are greedy or fat or have other typically piggish attributes.
What possible trend are these articles illustrating? What can you say about them other than "These are things that are foo"? How are they not idiosyncratic non-topics, per the deletion policy? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 05:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I look at it this way: is Wikipedia better for expending a portion of its finite editorial resources (disk space and server resources aren't infinite, but they won't run out before interest runs out) maintaining these lists? Is it worth cluttering otherwise useful categories (and similar tools, such as Whatlinkshere and Recentchanges and such)? When you're talking about a list with no topic (something called out in deletion policy, as an "idiosyncratic non-topic" and in What Wikipedia Is Not as an "indiscriminate collection of information"), I don't think the answer can be anything but no.
That isn't to say every "List of fictional foo" is necessarily topicless, but when a list is so broad that you can't say anything about everything (or even most things) other than what's in the title, it's probably less "List of Communist-themed antagonists from Silver-Age superhero comics" and more "List of things that are blue." - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 15:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
In answer to your three questions:
1) As to maintainability, "Lists of fictional X," are no more or less maintainable than any "List of real X." Just as fictional lists have to be updated as new fiction appears, list of real things have to be updated as thing happen in the real world. THus "Lists of fictional X" require new more effort than any other article, list or not. Further, Wikipedia editors come in all stripes - including those that prefer to edit articles on fictional topics; no special effort by uninterested Wikipedians should be required.
2) This, I think, would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis. I can see many lists of fictional things having useful research applications, not just for traditional academic writing (which can at times focus on esoteric topics of popular culture), but also for people interested in writing original fiction (especially Wold Newton style hybrids) or simply casual browsers interested in some book, show, game or movie they like. Some lists of fictional things, however, are too broad, limited, obscure, or otherwise flawed to support.
3) This one is the sticky one. On the one hand, Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. On the other, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. In many cases, the fate of an individual "List of fictional X" is going to come down to which of these principals various editors feel is more important.
Further, it should be noted that lists are not interchangable with categories. Lists offer the possibility of arranging information in ways other than strictly alphabetical, and allow for annotation and commentary not possible in tha category.
My recommendation is that each "List of fictional X" be carefully examined and only AfDed if there is a critical flaw, essentially maintaining the current system, rather that taking any kind of blanket action. - CNichols 02:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Dear administrator,
Lately I have noticed an error in the Arabic entry for Jerusalem (القدس). It was said that (free translation:) "Jerusalem is one of the greatest cities of Palestine, and its capital". This is, of course, not true: Palestine has no capital, for it is not even a state yet; Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. I think correction is nessecary.
Thanks.
See: http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.143.165.209 ( talk • contribs) 2006-07-10 10:23:08 (UTC)
The thing is, I did just that; I changed it in proper Arabic from "Palestine" to "Israel". But they changed it back to the way it was. I ask myself whether higher interference is requirred or not. Although it is indeed a problematic and disputed issue, one should remember that the Israeli Knesset and gouvernment are located in Jerusalem, while no official capital-worthy Palestinian institution dwells within the city (the village of Abu-Dis is not a part of Jerusalem, and the "Orient House" has been shut down years ago). Palestine isn't a state for now, and it has no capital - its institutions are spread throughout the territories. So with all due to political disputes, I think Arabic Wikipedia must face the reality. Defacto, Jerusalem isn't the capital of Palestine. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.143.165.209 ( talk • contribs) .
The question is how to define a capital. Defacto, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Although many countries does not accept this, and keep their embassies outside, the city still functions as the Israeli capital - in aspects of government, judicial system (the High Court) etc. This status of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital defacto, is confirmed, by the way, in the English Wikipedia entry for "Israel" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel ). So, if you examine the state as it is now, Jerusalem functions as the Israeli capital, and definatly not as the Palestinian one.
I know Arabic, and I can edit Arab Wikipedia entries. I did that. But the problem is, that they changed it back. This is where I wonder: Doesn't Wikipedia has basic standarts? How come the International English Version regard Jerusalem as the Israeli capital (like man other version of Wikipedia), while the Arabic version doesn't? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.143.165.209 ( talk • contribs) .
And while I am at this, there is an article called "ambulance chaser". Is it WIkipedia style to have a derogatory term for a group of professionals as an entry? Should we also include 'greedy insurance companies' or 'medical hacks' or 'bean-counters' (for accountants)? Is this what we want for Wikipedia? I heard (but do not know for sure) that the "ambulance chaser" article was initially created by creating the name and placing an image of John Edwards as the sole content of the article. Now the article at least has some attempt to create a NPOV article, but you really can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And why would we want to try?
I admit I am only a few months into editing Wikipedia, although I have read it for awhile - but generally on topics of interest that are well written. But when I started editing, I looked up something which led me to the 'tort reform' and then I realized that there were webs of subarticles branching out all focusing on the same political agenda - favorites are tort reform and lawyer bashing, but I'm sure there are others. I was appalled at the 'ambulance chaser' article. I am an attorney, but not a personal injury lawyer. I still find this highly offensive, both personally and as a WIkipedia editor. What kind of encyclopedia is this? THere is nothing encyclopedic about these aricles, unless you want to have a separate dictionary of derogatory terms and epithets. Then we could add 'medical hacks', 'greedy corporations', and soon devolve further into 'dirty nigger', 'jewboy', 'kikes', and the like. We could make a name for ourselves for being the encyclopedia that is an equal opportunity offendor and the baddest of bad taste. I think this paints the picture?
So the question here, is please help me understand what policies address this, if any, and if there aren't any, why aren't there? jgwlaw 04:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello. Could anyone elaborate on the protocol for coping with disruptive users that utilise multiple roving IP addresses? Meaning that almost each edit is under a different IP address so warning and then blocking a user is of no use, as they simply pop up to vandalise and disrupt elsewhere with a different address.-- Zleitzen 08:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've spent some time trying to draft clear, neutral, and specific language to cover the recent debates. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage. Note that I'm deliberately using a very broad umbrella term, rather than a list of "ancestry, class, culture, ethnicity, national origin, race, religion, or previous condition of servitude".
I believe that there is general agreement on how to label them, and specific agreement on the use of hyphenation, supported by numerous debates at Categories for Discussion.
Remember, these are Wikipedia:Naming conventions, and need to be concise. The detailed guidelines for inclusion and interpretation will be at Wikipedia:Categorization of people, where we can worry about other issues.
Opened at WT:AFD, a dual proposal for:
-- 62.147.38.70 17:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Check the history tab on this page.
I don't think I agree with this asessment, that footnote is for the meaning of the reference in the whole article, not just that bit about spelling, also, it seems inconsistant (at least to me, I do have some knowledge in this area) to say that spelling is (*all*) the same within the Britsh Isles and within every English speaking country, but differs between each English speaking country beyond the British Isles (just becuase that's how it is "authorised"). Linguistic cirteria does not disinguish "dialects" and "languages." Can you tell me, for example, is there a definite border between US spelling conventions and Canadian spelling conventions. According to the laws of linguistis, there is no inherent reason why differences in vocabulary, word formation, and even spelling need to follow country borders, therefore just becuase dictionarys for a particular country have the same spelling for all places and groups, does not mean that spelling "beyond the dictionarys" is the same. Have you ever heard of Scots spelling, or Black English spelling? Consider dictionarys for a prarticular "national varietys" of a "language" that may provide two different spellings of a word, and consider the possiblity that local usage may favour one spelling over the other. Myrtone
"Yes, linguistics need not follow national or political boundaries." Well, unfortuately, JackLumber ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) seems to follow (exactly) these boundries, but yet claims to be a "linguist." Myrtone
"historical, political, cultural ties between Canada and Britain" I'm not so sure about that historical, let alone, cultural ties with, say England, or what you even mean by the "boundries of the box." Believe me, even serious scholars do not neccasessarily *write* according to community consensus. Myrtone
There are two issues - the words used and the standard spellings. The early dictionary-makers in the USA chose to vary a few common words - honour and honor, for instance. This has remained fixed ever since. English-speakers within the British Empire and later the Commonwealth accepted the UK standard for spelling. Some extra words are used, not only in Scotland but also in English regions.
Microsoft Word 2002 offers English (Ireland) and also Gaelic (Scotland) along with Gaelic (Ireland). I wouldn't be surprised if this changed soon.
-- GwydionM 17:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I hope this is an adequate place to post this. I'm not an expert user, so bear with me. I might be completely mistaken, but I have the impression that some vandals might get too much attention here. I realize it is easier to ban someone if their actions are known, but pages like this one almost seem to pay tribute to these users (I also realize some of their edits can be amusing, etc. but there are other places on the internet for that). I'm of the opinion that vandalism is fairly easy to spot and control and that these imbeciles will leave if they are ignored. I know the issue is much more complex, but I just wanted to share my thoughts. ChaChaFut 06:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Suppose one had solid evidence of an editor's systematic use of multiple socks for the purpose of intimidation, false consensus building, 3RR aversion, etc. What is the best way to present said evidence, given the fact that doing so would likely allow the objective observer to surmise the identity of the puppeteer? Is there an "off-line" alternative to how I see it attempted so clumsily so often? Wikipalooza2006 07:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I would love to contribute to some of the stubs floating around wikipedia, but one thing bothers me:
In entertainment articles (particularly those about a particular show, anime or videogame), there are often a slew of sub-pages which seem to probe every facet of said show etc. Is this what wikipedia is actually aiming for?
One example is 'Cultural references and innuendo in Rocko's Modern Life'. It's a list of innuendos and product references from a cartoon show. I can't for the life of me see how it's relevant in an encyclopedia.
Other examples would be anime which focusses on combat - often every minor character is listed somewhere with a list of who they fought, when and where. This is often all there is to these characters anyway, since they're very minor. It seems like a boatload of fancruft.
Not only does it pad out the encyclopedia with fluff, but it distracts contributors from filling out numerous stubs because they're so busy listing the many 'Mr X's and how many times they kicked 'Character Z' in the face.
Is there a rule or assertion somewhere which discourages this kind of page? I'm aware that unsubstantiated fancruft is discouraged, but is there a rule implying that articles should remain to-the-point and not shatter into a thousand sub-pages with useless information for the info-seeker?
Any input appreciated,
QuagmireDog 13:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has been going on regarding the "Atlantic 10 Conference" Template...I'm including what has been said, so far, below. Why can't you put logos in a template? I don't agree with it, and it certainly improves the look of the template..what does everyone think Lasallefan 18:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
beginning of discussion on a-10 template talk page
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Logo
What's the problem with using the logo? 192.160.62.60
Wikipedia policy as described at Wikipedia:Fair use criteria item #9 specifically proscribes the use of fair use images outside of the main article namespace. Thus, the use of fair use images, such as logos, is not permitted in templates. --Durin 13:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC) I understand what your saying, but here's the thing, a Template is an EXTENSION of a main article, and an intricate part of many main articles. As such, logos actually ARE allowed on conference...and all...templates.
Furthermore, picture/logo use on templates is common on Wikipedia 192.160.62.60 18:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This is false. Please read Wikipedia:Fair use criteria item #9. The incluson of the logo is explicitly banned. Quoting the policy, "[fair use images] should never be used on templates (including stub templates and navigation boxes) or on user pages". Re-inserting the image is a violation of Wikipedia policy and constitutes a form of vandalism. Stop. --Durin 18:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC) To simplify matters: the policy states: "Fair use images should be used only in the article namespace. Used outside article space, they are often enough not covered under the fair use doctrine. They should never be used on templates (including stub templates and navigation boxes) or on user pages." Durin is wholly correct in this. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 20:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Fair Enough...but I think Wikipedia should look into changing this polcy. I mean, honestly, are the copyright police going to come after you for a Template?...there should be some discretion 66.30.130.133 22:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not much of one for rocking the boat; but I can see your point. I won't discourage anybody from trying to implement policy changes; I just prefer following it. /me shrugs. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 23:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC) "They wouldn't sue over this!" and similar arguments to support abuse of copyright is not an affirmative defense under fair use law. We must assume the institutions that hold copyrights to material are interested in protecting those copyrights unless we have proof otherwise. Thus, the fair use images must remain off of templates. --Durin 01:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC) I ask you both this...arn't we going against this policy: Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. We could improve this site, but instead we're worried about minor stuff. How do you go about asking for a policy change anyway? Lasallefan 18:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
First, WP:IAR is not policy, and even it were it it does not mean ignore all laws. Second, adding decorative images in violation of copyright law is not improving the site. Instead, it is placing it in danger of copyright/trademark lawsuits by the holders of copyrights who may be interested in defending their rights. It is most definitely not a "minor" thing to be sued. Even if Wikimedia won the case, the damage in fighting the lawsuit alone could be more than enough to shut this entire project down. Wikimedia does not have deep pockets. You can change policy by discussing potential changes on the talk page of the policy in question, or (probably better, for there is a larger audience) bringing up potential changes at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). But, be advised; the fair use policy is unlikely to change. --Durin 03:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
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end of discussion on a-10 template talk page...add comments below
Dear Administrator:
I, like you, am an editor; I create articles and make edits. But, many, I am sure many other people out there, are tired, frustrated and angry with the behavior of many Administrators. I am certain that it is appallingly easy to revert an article, that someone has undoubtedly spent allot of time and effort writing. I have, in the past spent hours, researching, planning, writing, checking and revising an addition to an article only to have the whole lot deleted forever three minutes afterwards.
I know that deletion of material is essential in a free-to-edit encyclopedia, but if you see an article that someone has anonymously devoted their time to writing, why could you not revise it, change it or give a reason for you action? They deserve one.
I know all Administrators are not all Drunk-With-Power-Trigger-Happy-Nazis, many of you do an excellent job and you know who you are.
In closing: Create, don’t Destroy. Make a distinction between “what is right, and what is easy”. Be enriched and enrich others with the knowledge of other people.
And keep that finger off the trigger.
Dfrg.msc 01:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps instituting something like a three vote rule on reverts? That would prevent unilateral action, and bad edits would still get reverted soon enough. RandomIdiot 14:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Down with Trigger Happy Admins! Solution: allow for a special new type of user called a "sentinel" that is greater than a basic user in authority. This new sentinel is not an administrator, and cannot block other users, but cannot be blocked either. The sentinel only has the ability to make 60 edits per day. The primary advantage to a sentinel is that the sentinel cannot be blocked by radical fringe administrators. Yet the sentinel's power is restricted to only 60 edits per day. This idea was a result of the extreme blocking related to these links:
Sure, sometimes there will be linkspam, and some sentinels that abuse their power, but administrators are not immune from the tyranical tendencies of those in authority. Spicynugget 14:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
I would like to open this issue for discussion.
I’ve been working in the field of Clinical Psychology for 40+ years. In Wikipedia, I was working on a technical Article concerning the psychological & physical components of chemical dependency. Almost from my first edit, I was reverted by a User whose only entry on their User Page was “OK, so I finally got a User Page. Satisfied?” This is moronic!! Because I refused to engage in what surely would have deteriorated into a mindless edit war, I finally gave up on editing the Article all together.
Surely there is something that can be done here.
I would propose this: If a User is going to make edits to an Article, particularly a technical or scientific one, that the person be willing to state their expertise in the given field on their User Page, or at least something more than a glib remark.
Wikipedia is losing good, highly motivated, professionals as editors because they have experienced what I described happened with me.
If something is not done, I’m afraid Wikipedia will soon need to carry a disclaimer at the top of its Main Page: “This encyclopedia is strictly for amusement, and should not be regarded as factual.”
Frustrated, Michael David 12:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
with all due respect, the replies above are useless bordering on the impertinent. "I personally don't think experts should get automatic veto power or whatever over non-experts"? Good for you, but how is this supposed to help Michael David? Did he inquire for "automatic veto power"? give us a break. "My suggestion is to just learn to deal with people who disagree with you"? Is this seriously the advice you have to offer to someone who has been into psychology for 40 years? (Have you even been into being alive that long?) Even bored gestures towards dispute resolution are not helpful here. The case described by the original poster is typical. A user having “OK, so I finally got a User Page. Satisfied?” has the only content on his user page is almost infallibly a sock puppet or a troll. Which means that smart assed remarks about how Wikipedia gives power to the people are entirely beside the point. My answer to this inquiry would be, 'drop me a line, and I'll look into the case and help you revert any trolling, thank you for helping improve Wikipedia'. You can save your generic wisdom for people who come here complaining about genuine editing dispute. Just being reverted by a stubborn sock is not an editing dispute, and any expert of any field experiencing this deserves some help from the community. thanks, dab (ᛏ) 17:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Taking a look at the edits of Michael David ( talk · contribs) is worthwhile. Most of the edits are to biographical articles of dead people. Many of those edits involve noting that someone died by suicide. See
That's just the past two days. Several hundred other edits by this editor show a fascination, if not obsession, with suicidal depression. There's no major technical article by this editor that I can find. -- John Nagle 18:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
On a general point about expert v non-expert editors, it's too facile to say that because of WP:V any editor is as good as another in technical areas. If we want a good, trustworthy article, letting someone who knows little of the subject quote a newspaper article or a popular book is no substitute for someone who really knows the sources, is probably more up-to-date than the popular items and can sort the wheat from the chaff.-- Brownlee 12:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
My 2 cents: I feel that being civil and talking it out, and bringing in people you trust to help, is a good choice in any wiki-war.
However, I'd like to point out that people with much more experience than me have been much more uncivil than me. There's User:Lulu of the Lotus Eaters, who uses ad hominem attacks on good-faith strangers despite his multitude of academic awards, there's user:Noesis, who worked in partnership with a very famous and respected academic, and yet became bitter when others made any addition to the article on that man( Leon Kass).
My point is that people can have bad habits with or without great qualifications.
Thus, I feel that the most important values on wikipedia should be to be act in good faith and to always try to learn and keep an open mind. Again, I feel that being civil and talking it out, and bringing in people you trust to help, is a good choice in any wiki-war. And if you know you're right, then more power to you.-- Zaorish 18:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
It appears that editors are now selecting portals for possible deletion on the grounds that a portal has not been given prior approval: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Thinking. Concern has been raised that this portal approval process does not have the wide consensus it appears to claim, and that it runs counter to the principles of Wikipedia - the essence of which is that this is a wiki which enables users to get involved immediately without registration or prior review. Tiresome though it is to tidy up vandalism and to correct mistakes, that is the price we have to pay for having a wiki. This portal approval process appears to be an example of creeping bureaucratic authority. If people feel that editors who are unsure if their portal is a good idea need somewhere to for for advice, perhaps the page could be renamed Wikipedia:Portal/Advice, and it made explicit and clear that there is no need to wait a week for approval. SilkTork 08:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Below I've transposed the Miscellany for Deletion nomination for the Portal Approval page. To participate in that discussion, click the edit button below and to the right: -- Transhumanist 03:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
(You may want to go to the MfD and restate that.) -- Transhumanist 03:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is continued on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Portal/Proposals, which includes my original reply to this forum.
Today's Gretzky FA on the frontpage has him categorized as Belarusian Canadian and Polish Canadian among other things. Innumerable US personalities are similarly categorized by ethnicity.
I tried to categorize British people of Bengali origin similarly with the category British-Bengalis. There are, to my knowledge, 11 such people articles on WP so far, all of which I tagged - Eenasul Fateh, Iqbal Ahmed, the two girls on Harry Potter, etc etc.
But for some reason, this was put to a VfD along with several others, and then deleted after a vote that barely recorded 10 votes in total - with at least 3 for. The deletionist gave all sorts of strange reasons for not categorizing British people by their ethnicity, few of which made much sense.
I also pointed out the policy of targetting small categories (although with 11 members, British-Bengalis was larger than most). The deletionist cleverly left out British Asians which is truly a large category, and which will have many backers if anyone ever puts it to the vote.
I have therefore two questions:
If anyone can clarify, I will be most grateful. I would like to know what official WP policy is, before a useful category dies a needless death.
-- Peripatetic 11:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Where can I review the CFD for this categorisation - on the face of it, it does seem an odd idea to delete such a category where we have "fictional armies" and the like roaming around. -- Charlesknight 14:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Does the wikipedia:Libel policy apply to statements of opinion on talk pages? For example, if I say on a talk page that in my opinion, a person (not a wikipedia editor) lied when s/he made a certain claim, may that statement be deleted as libel? Anonymous44 14:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I really would like a new policy in which the non-administrator user can protect his userspace (main userpage, talk, subpages, etc) from any potential vandalism, but wouldn't be able to protect any other pages on Wikipedia. Is this feasible? -- Revolución hablar ver 04:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
(From WT:CSD) I am thinking that it might be best to amend A8 and remove the requirement "Material is unquestionably copied from the website of a commercial content provider (e.g. encyclopedia, news service)." Currently, pages that are copyvios of materials from non-profit organizations take too long to process. People have to check if the article is a copyvio, blank the article, insert the {{copyvio}} template, and list the page on WP:CP. Then, a week later, somebody else has to verify that it is a copyvio and then speedy it. Given that there are an astronomical amount of copyvios, this can cause a lot of wasted time. Thoughts? -- Where 15:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
As it seems like we have reached a consensus to do so, I have modified WP:CSD with the changes. Feel free to revert me if you disagree that there is consensus here. -- Where 02:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to propose a change in policy for articles that are transwikied to wikibooks. Currently, articles that are transwikied from wikipedia are simply deleted, which has the unfortunate effect of also deleting the history of contributors (the history of a transwikied article on the WB side starts with the person who did the transwiking).
It seems to me that these histories should be preserved, both as a way of acknowledging the contributions, and perhaps to give WB editors a way to find source material if the article on WP lacked citations (i.e., we would at least know who to ask). I don't think this would cause much of a problem on the WP side, because very few articles are successfully transwikied to WB, though this may be in part because the contributors to the article don't realize that it has been transwikied (and articles that are transwikied and "abandoned" at wikibooks are soon deleted).
So I propose the following:
SB Johnny 18:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Template:Hotu ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) - A template to link articles to Home of the Underdogs. A legitimate site, perhaps, and contains lots of information - but it also contains copyrighted material, abandonware versions of games. Now, the site is no secret - and if the companies wanted their work pulled, I'm sure it would have been already. But the question remains, should we be linking to these so people can download them? -- Golbez 06:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I just started an AfD on List of Logan City suburbs. This is simply a list of the suburbs of Logan City, Queensland. What's policy on this? A list of suburbs seems the wrong tool for the job. And it would take tens of thousands of articles like this to cover the world.
How should atlas data like that be represented? We really need more map support ("Wikipedia Earth?") for this kind of thing. -- John Nagle 06:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Do we need both of these systems. They do the same thing, and having two only serves to confuse. --GW_Simulations |User Page | Talk | Contribs | E-mail 09:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I have been editing Wikipedia for about a year (I think!), and until a fortnight ago all I ever did was add and modify articles and surf it for info. Up to that point I had nothing negative to say about Wikipedia. I still think it's a marvellous concept and an extremely useful reference tool, far superior than any other encyclopedia. Best of all, it's free at the point of use, so knowledge is not limited by budget. I have every intention of carrying on playing a part in it, as the free proliferation and preservation of knowledge is a cause I am deeply committed to.
There is however another side, one of which I was blissfully ignorant until one day I visited my Sharon Janis article and found it vanished. Since then I have been learning fast about policies, administrators, AfD's, deletion reviews, and the inner workings of Wikipedia generally. It has been a profoundly upsetting stressful and time-consuming experience. I never expected to end up fighting a crusade against a massive bureaucracy.
Whilst I've had other articles removed, I could see good reasoning behind them. With the Sharon Janis article, I found myself having to fight hard to justify the blatantly justifiable, whereas some of my other articles about far more obscure subjects have never been questioned. Whilst this is undoubtedly the encyclopedia everyone can edit, it's also the encyclopedia where at any time, anyone's prejudice can strike out information someone else gave up time and energy to contribute. I am not convinced that reality matches policy. The policy is sound, but what happens in practice is that ego, personal prejudices, feelings pride and emotions inevitably come into play. What is happening in reality is that articles that are rubbish but no one cares about could survive indefinitely, but those where someone has a personal dislike or pejudice get nominated for the chop. The victims in this are articles which whilst not perfect have merit but have the misfortune to be read by someone with a bee in their bonnet. Fortunately, those curious enough about deleted articles can often go to Google and find out about the subject that way, but I don't think they should have to.
I see from the forums I have visited that I have become just another aggrieved editor who has seen hard work removed without a full reasonable and justifiable explanation. It is a lot easier to remove an article than defend one, as I have painfully discovered, and that is not right. I have far better things to do with my precious time than spend countless hours on procedures, forums and jargon, but so deep is my passion for what I believe that I have gritted my teeth and waded headlong into this bewildering cyberworld.
To sum up, Wikipedia is a marvellous creation which I'm glad I discovered, but it is far too easy for articles to be removed. I don't mind anyone appealing for a deletion, but an editor or administrator should have to work at least as hard in removing an article as I've had to in defending one. The power to delete is too widely spread amongst God knows how many administrators and therefore too easily the cause of micarriages of justice. As for the deletion review, it is a lottery depending on who reads your article and the review. The power to delete should instead be concentrated into a panel of ten highly experienced committed users who require a minimum 8-2 verdict to remove an article with a full given reasoning from each member. Above them should be a tribunal with powers to overturn in the light of fresh evidence. Even then articles should be re-admitted anyway if suitably modified in a way dictated by the tribunal.
I will go on using, contributing and (very reluctantly) participating in discussions on Wikipedia, but after the last fortnight I will do so with a heavier heart. Headshaker 15:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Headshaker 05:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Any editor in good standing with some contribution history to show value to the encyclopedia is always welcome to ask any admin for an article to be userified (copied or moved to their user space). I get and (after review for suitability, see my user pages for guidelines) grant such requests all the time, and so do many other editors. If an article you are working on is deleted and you think it's salvagable, ask that it be userified, work on it some more, seek advice from interested editors and once you've improved it to address the concerns raised in the AfD, move it back. If it's been substantially improved it will not be automatically speedied as a recreation of deleted content. Railing against process will not get you sympathy, though... this process works pretty well and has general consensus... Hope that helps, and happy editing! ++ Lar: t/ c 17:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Have a look at this edit. A basic and easily checkable fact in the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom article (the salary) was not updated. This is the sort of thing that justifiably gives Wikipedia a bad reputation. What is the point of saying that our articles can be more up-to-date than others, when no-one checks to see if they are up-to-date? This was all the worst for appearing in a featured article linked from the Main Page. Can processes please be put in place to stop this happening again? Carcharoth 23:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite clear on what the difference is between Original Research and Rephrasing or Reasoning something. My example is slightly obscure, but is the best I can come up with at the moment. If say, no-one anywhere had published something saying that the District Line had the most number of stations on the London Underground (this 'factoid' has been published, but for the sake of argument let's say that only the number of stations on each line had been published). Would it then be Original Research to look at a list of the number of stations on each line and say "The District Line has the most number of stations". To me this is similar to the "deductive reasoning" section above (which concerned deducing people's nationality), but this is a clearer case of deductive reasoning. Other cases I can think of include saying things like "team Y is the first team to have won trophy X by this scoreline since 1860". This sort of thing is verifiable, but if it hasn't been published elsewhere, the only way to verify it is for the reader to go and check various lists and see if this is true. So where is the line drawn between rephrasing and representing a set of facts and maybe adding some obvious deductive reasoning, and this process becoming Original Research? A similar process would be seen for the process of rewriting and rephrasing things from a source. Where is the line drawn between summarising several sources (which is one of the prime purposes of a tertiary source like an encyclopedia), and synthesising those sources in such a way that (maybe accidentally) new connections and insights are revealed about the topic? Carcharoth 00:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I can see endless scope for arguments about whether something is an obvious and trivial deduction from published facts (when it would be silly to call it NOR) or not. To me, the District Line example is a trivial deduction, and I would accept it even if there were controversy; others would disagree. Almost certainly, it will often come down to whether it offends someone's POV.-- Brownlee 11:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I didn't receive a response to my ANI post about this, so I've decided to post here. I'm after community support to run a script to convert tor blocks to AnonOnly NoCreate. The source code of this script, which has worked as expected on my own wiki (see [11]), will be available on request. I would suggest that this script run on a botflagged account, as it will otherwise flood recent changes with 250-odd block and unblock combinations at a rate of approximately ten unblock/block combinations per minute. I do not currently have a sysop bit, so the account would need to be hit with a sysop bit. Issues to be resolved:
Input is welcome. Werdna (talk) 10:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Anything that encourages people to have a named account seems like a good idea. AGF: why shouldn't a non-admin maintain the script? I assume that people can check it if they wish. I can't see any reason not to run it regularly.-- Runcorn 19:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
If the community doesn't go for the commuting of the blocks, I have no problem running the script simply to update our existing Tor blocks. Werdna (talk) 10:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Does WP need separate standards on when to delete articles about micronations or are WP:ORG and WP:WEB good enough? Micronations are defined in the WP article on them as "eccentric and ephemeral in nature, and are often created and maintained by a single person or family group" and thus seem to be by definition, without anything else, non-notable. Anyone can start one by declaration and most of them do not exist outside of one person's website. The ones that are mentioned in the article were mostly notable as part of a political movement. What should the standards be for retaining such articles? It seems that at a minimum the micronation should have some sort of significance outside of the political movement to which it is related. Also, is there any way to speedy delete these? Forming a micronation is like forming a band (easier in fact, as you don't have to be able to play an instrument), but without more, why do we care? JChap ( talk • contribs) 17:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems to be general practice to put stubs and cats at the end of articles, but is there any rule about which comes first? I notice that bots often swap them round, but with no clear preference as to order.-- Runcorn 19:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
WileyPublishing ( talk · contribs), who has identified on the User Talk page as a summer intern for Wiley Publishing company, which publishes the Cliffs Notes, made edits to numerous articles for classic novels to add a link to a Cliffs Notes page for that work. The edits have been reverted as linkspam and the user has been blocked from posting.
The content at each page seems to be, for free, the full contents of the Cliffs Notes that many of us paid money for in high school when we hadn't read the book. These were not generic linkspam, but were specific links to the notes for each novel.
The suggestion has been made that there may be some value in allowing these links to stay as a useful resource relevant to each book. On the other hand, this is a commercial site and the pages do have some advertising content on them, so these links would help draw viewers to these pages and these ads. On the other hand (yep, a lot of hands here) we do direct people to other sites (IMDB, for example) which have some advertising content, though maybe not as much.
There is some discussion of the issue on the user talk page.
Could people take a look at some of the content referenced by the links (see: Special:Contributions/WileyPublishing)? What do people think? Are these links we should allow, or should it be forbidden as linkspam? Fan-1967 20:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
User was blocked for an inappropriate username, not for adding the links. He had already added them as 12.149.50.2 ( talk · contribs) and they had been reverted, but he was not given a warning. He then registered as WileyPublishing and added them again. The 12.149.50.2 address is registered to John Wiley in New Jersey, according to this. User was warned with {{ spam}} at 16:09 (UTC), [13] and ignored the message and posted four more links [14] [15] [16] [17]. Only after he was blocked did he say he was working for Wiley and Sons. [18] AnnH ♫ 21:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
What's the best thing to do with debate on talk pages which is not about page content and is clearly not productive (e.g. a debate on Talk:Roman Catholic Church based on an anonymous assertion that the Roman Catholic Church isn't Christian)? While it's there it attracts responses and distracts from the purpose of the page; but I've been a bit loath to just delete sections of talk pages. Should it just be deleted? Left alone? Marked as 'closed' in some way (like how debates which have reached a concensus are marked as closed)? TSP 20:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
For thoose interested, see here for a discussion about the interaction between policies such as WP:CON and WP:NPOV when partisan motives are playing the first fidle. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#What to do if a move poll is determined by partisan reasons.3F. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 09:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I am starting to see a lot of comments from editors who see lists as redundant with categories. See, for example, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superfluous game lists. Setting aside the specific issue (i.e. that the lists being discussed there aren't terribly useful ones) my understanding is that lists and categories are encouraged to operate side-by-side, and are not redundant with each other. Surely a list does several useful things a category cannot do, most importantly including items which do not yet have a Wikipedia article and items which would not justify having one. Is that not correct? Or is it one of those major wikipedia controversies like deletionism -vs- inclusionism. Do we have prolistists and antilistists? And if so, how do I join the first camp? AndyJones 12:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Lists can be classified and annotated. Thus a list of Nobel Prizewinners could be split into sections showing which Nobel Prize it was, and annotated with a short summary of why they won it, if it was shared, etc. The former can be done with a hierarchy of categories, but this is cumbersome. The latter cannot be done at all with categories; you can read each article, but that's very time-consuming.-- Runcorn 19:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Which village pump would be appropriate for discussing a guideline? -- GunnarRene 14:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I recently added some links to Aura (paranormal) and someone removed them. The links I posted were related to Aura (paranormal) and was wondering why they were removed. I would like to put the links back on the site since they are related to the page. I would appreciate some imput. Thanks. John R G 17:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes you are correct but they are Aura related and therefore should not be removed. Am I correct? If I am wrong tell me why. John R G 18:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Can someone point me to policy regarding users removing material that is backed up by article references? Also, is it enough to have references at the bottom, or do you need to implement the awkward ref/cite syntax for it to be considered cited? - Keith D. Tyler ¶ ( AMA) 18:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to upload an image of a Chinese character that I found on the web. It seems to me a Chinese character cannot be copyrighted, just as you cannot copyright the letter 'A'. I seem to recall an entire font can be copyrighted but not an individual letter. Is this correct? And if so, what do I select when choosing the copyright status of the uploaded image? -- Ideogram 23:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
U.S. copyright laws regarding fonts are really bizzare. There is some legal precedence that suggests that fonts are uncopyrightable, under the argument that the owner of a popular font could seriously restrict the freedom of speech if he/she had complete economic control over all uses of the font. Presumably, if you could copyright a font, you could also control exactly how and in what manner any written content was expressed when that font was used. And has been in the past. From this perspetive, showing Wikipedia using propritary fonts like this is a violation of the GFDL and illegal, provided the font is copyrighted. Courts have clearly ruled that font designers can't control how the characters are used in terms of combinations of characters.
Now it gets even more bizzare as some font data files are considered algorithms, hence copyrightable as computer software. So the font data file (like a true type font) is copyrightable, although raster images of the font are still perfectly legal to copy (such as in an advertisement). I think it is from this perspetive that the raster scanned image is perhaps going to be legitimate. However in this situation, to make things very simple for copyright purposes, you should be the one who "renders" the character and makes the image. Don't just "steal" the image from another website. If you need to have a good free (as in beer, not copyleft) Chinese character font, please see Code2000 for links to the website. Most of the Plane-0 Chinese characters are in that font. There are other Chinese character fonts, some of higher quality, but expect to pay through the nose to be able to obtain them. If you already have the font... good for you. -- Robert Horning 21:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This article appears to be based on Wikipedia's own article (probably before some random editors did a hack job on our article). I would like to copy this article back to Wikipedia. Could there be a copyright problem or is the fact that it is based on GFDL Wikipedia material prevent that? -- Ideogram 00:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Article: Template:MLB_HoF
Controversy: Usage of official HoF logo; fair-use vs. permitted use
Background:
Sometime in the past, a small tag-type template was created to be used on the article pages of members of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. This template originally included the official logo.
After some initial controversy regarding the simple necessity of the template, an editor began making the "FUC" argument, removing the template.
Soon, the template re-emerged, and in this iteration, the official logo was replaced by an unattractive photograph of the front doors of the HoF.
Two VfDs were attempted, during which the template was frequently shuffled between the unsightly picture, and the official logo, on the basis of fair-use images being non-permissible.
A staff member of the HoF was contacted, and permission granted under standard HoF policies (they allow editorial usage of the logo) and that staff member's office telephone number was posted in the discussion page.
I understand the intended scope of the policy, and, in my opinion, this is well outside it both legally and morally. This is a relatively unimportant template content-wise, but, to someone researching baseball and its players for the first time, a small tag indicating HoF membership serves as a quick, at-a-glance way to determine the career performance of a given player, and has survived *two* VfDs because of that fact.
Since the VfD's combined with the simultaneous revision of the template were rather obviously aimed at forcing a stylistic point, rather than truly a content one, I'd like to see this matter discussed in a wider forum than has been so far attempted. A few admins are strongly asserting their own interpretations of posted policies, the most pertinent of which is both contradictory and specifically mentions case-by-case exemptions.
I hereby open this discussion with a request for consensus and clarification on this triflingly insignificant matter.
(Note: Permission ahs been sought, and granted, by the HoF, however, certain administrators have expressed concern that this permitted use might not hold in the face of potential commercial editions of wikipedia content. The office telephone number of the HoF staffmember detailed to answer such requests has been posted publicly, probably an incredible nuisance to the aforementioned staffmember. The phone number rings busy during non-office-hours as of 7-19-2006. Accordingly, official clarification will be required as to the types of proofs required under FUC policies.) Ender78 05:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)