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Related to an earlier proposal here to change Wikipedia:Copyright, I am now proposing a revision of a section of the copyright FAQ. (Everything branches out. :)) The more recent proposal is at Wikipedia talk:FAQ/Copyright#Proposed alteration. The sort of ongoing conversation about WP:C is at Wikipedia talk:Copyrights#Derivative works. The primary purpose of the proposal is to clarify what it means "to read an encyclopedia article or other work, reformulate the concepts in your own words, and submit it to Wikipedia", since I have seen quite a few articles cross WP:C where contributors seemed to think a handy thesaurus is all it takes. I'd be grateful for feedback there on both the idea and the language, since neither of those talk pages is heavily monitored. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
There is a request for comment about whether or not WP:BOOSTER documents a standard consensus and good practice that all editors and school/college/university articles should follow as an official policy or guideline. Madcoverboy ( talk) 18:59, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I have started an RFC for a centralized discussion of the issue of linking units in articles. I arbitrarily chose the talk page of WP:MOSNUM, but I am also leaving notices on as many relevent talk pages as possible to attract centralized attention to this. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Centralized discussion for linking of units of measurement. Please carry on all further discussion at that location. Thanks. -- Jayron32. talk. contribs 21:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I understand religious affiliation has been removed from bios' on Canadian Prime Ministers. This may be a policy of wikipedia or just an anomoly. In any event removing information that is true should be never be a policy of wikipedia. Religion forms a persons philosophy of life as much as any other set of beliefs. They may not live the life their beliefs say they should which is even more of a reason for religious info to be available. What is the justification for removing this information? Wikipedia loses credibility if this type of action can be taken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.111.221 ( talk) 21:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
You might be interest in participating in an RFC about the same question concerning Adolf Hitler (no kidding). Turns out that he was formally a member of the Catholic Church all his life, but apparently several editors can't accept that. Please go to: Talk:Adolf Hitler#Hitler, nominally Catholic?. Zara1709 ( talk) 11:16, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Consensus having been reached on the core of the WP:Review Board (with the scope limited to auditing CU and OS use only), discussion should proceed to making this policy once the last details have been hammered out:
Wide community participation is encouraged on the talk page. — Coren (talk) 03:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there some kind of policy about oversight of spam fighters by someone other than other spam fighters? I wouldn't bother to bring this here except that I see this kind of problem being laid on many editors besides me.
I would like some second opinions from others concerning this:
I feel like I am being intimidated by some forum-shopping spam fighters into agreeing with them and a supporting admin. Another admin agreed with me.
It does not seem to be enough for these spam-fighters that I had said I was not wedded to adding a particular worthy external link.
I feel that they are out of control. So I promised never ever to add this particular worthy external link just so I don't feel pressured by the admin who wrote this: [1]
It is a mischaracterization of what I have been writing there, just like the frequent mischaracterization by the other spam-fighters there.
I have seen groups of many of these spam-fighters humiliate numerous other editors. That is why I am bringing it up here. They are out of control. I have been saying this a long time. See my user page for some past essays by me about this from long ago.
Also, look at the talk pages of some of these spam fighters, and follow some of the discussions back to who they are replying to. Note the frequent frustration of many editors dealing with these spam fighters.
Every now and then I bring this up, but it seems few people pay attention. Spam fighting is looked at as necessary dirty work, and they get a pass on many of the rules such as WP:BITE, and common courtesy.
So I try to avoid spam fighters, as many people do, but one particular spam fighter dragged me into a noticeboard with a lame accusation of edit warring.
This type of stuff causes many people to leave Wikipedia, and stop giving money or praise to it.
I see this kind of group-think intimidation sometimes on forums outside Wikipedia, but one would hope Wikipedia would try to do better. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 05:48, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) I have very little interest in getting embroiled in a debate about particulars, since as I pointed out, I consider only the general issue raised to be of interest. However, as one of the parties involved chose to respond on my user talk page instead of here, I thought I might quote them here:
"From my perspective, then, what's needed at this point is for Ronz to admit to perhaps having been a tad heavy-handed" I hope you're referring to the warnings on his web page. In hindsight, I should have started the edit-warring report immediately when he attacked me in response to the npa-2 template I left on his talk page. What would you have liked to have happened? -- Ronz ( talk) 16:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Although I think this merits little more than a [ sic], I find it somewhat depressing that Ronz apparently did not read, or chose to ignore, or lamentably failed to understand the very next sentence following the one they chose to quote. Nude Amazon ( talk) 17:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I noticed a few years back on the Deir Yassin Massacre article, some editors were strongly trying to change the title to "Battle of Deir Yassin." Words affect perception significantly, depending on whether 'attack' or 'battle' is used for example. One argument is it's a 'battle' if 'two sides are fighting'. So, if one party attacks and the second defends themselves, is the 'attack' then a 'battle' (or 'conflict')? How to deal with this issue? Cheers RomaC ( talk) 04:30, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
In the spirit of Wikipedian egalitaranism of all knowledge, it seems that calendar eras should be denoted with CE and BCE rather than with BC and AD. The WP article "Year" even notes that those are the more neutral designations. CE and BCE do not specify religious belief, yet still maintain the currently accepted calendar eras. BC and AD are Christian specific and should be used, at most, in articles dealing with Christianity.-- MysteryJG ( talk) 16:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The discussion on the implementation of a 'trial' configuration of FlaggedRevisions on en.wiki has now reached the 'straw poll' stage. All editors are invited to read the proposal and discussion and to participate in the straw poll. Happy‑ melon 17:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Can I get more input on this? According to User:Uncle G, I am not allowed to nominate an article for deletion unless I've gone to a major library and looked for print sources. Is this a reasonable expectation? Little Red Riding Hood talk 20:16, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
No one said you absolutely must do offline research in order to nominate an article for deletion. Uncle G is a famous deletion discussion participant, and has been for years, and he knows his shit. The reason offline research was key to this particular discussion is because the subject matter is less likely to have extensive online coverage. Searching for references requires a bit of a judgment call - if the subject of the article has been dead for half a thousand years (assuming he existed at all), it wouldn't be at all surprising for him to be both notable and not have much in the way of references available online. Avruch T 22:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
A concern was raised that the clause, "a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" conflicts with WP:NPOV by placing a higher duty of care with primary sourced claims than secondary or tertiary sourced claims. An RFC has been initiated to stimulate wider input on the issue. Professor marginalia ( talk) 05:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm open to adding policy pages to WP:Update. Personally, I try to focus on the pages that directly concern what goes into articles, but I'd be happy if anyone else wants to chart changes to any category of policies every month. I considered adding WP:Deletion policy and WP:Copyrights, but the stuff relevant to article content on those pages seems to be covered already by two of the content policies, WP:NOT and WP:Non-free content criteria. The next logical place to expand, it seems to me, is to keep track of the policy on how to discuss and change policy, namely WP:Policies and guidelines and WP:Consensus. I'd rather not add WP:Dispute resolution or the "crime and punishment" policies, in the spirit of WP:BEANS. I don't want to act unilaterally on this; can I get some suggestions? - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 15:08, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Wikipedia:Arbitration policy proposed updating was a drafting process for making much needed changes to the Wikipedia:Arbitration policy following last year's Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Arbitration_Committee and discussion on if we should vote to ratify some changes during the last elections. Unfortunately, it stalled some time during October when input and support for the process from the sitting Arbitration Committee seemed to cease. It is again unfortunate that the current Arbitration Committee are unable to provide any timeline or agenda for investigating enacting the changes requested from the community.
With that in mind, I'm restarting Wikipedia:Arbitration policy proposed updating, with a view to having a ratification vote on a new policy some time in Q3 2009. Generally, I think this will be an evolutionary process from the draft we have, with only minor changes now required to put forward a document that can be ratified as the new arbitration policy. -- Barberio ( talk) 22:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia have any policy regarding the detailed description of suicide methods? For instance, is there any policy preventing elaborate description of how to perform the method documented in the article Charcoal-burning suicide? I ask out of simple curiosity. 99.245.92.47 ( talk) 01:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I am looking for input for the page Wikipedia:If you could re-write the rules. I want a variety of opinions! — harej // be happy 05:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I was shocked when I came across Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict#Arabic interwiki + Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict/Archive 5#Link to the Arabic Wikipedia and where there were suggestions to remove an interlanguage wiki link because some contributors regard it as 'too POV'. I've been looking for any policy on interwiki links and couldn't find any. It's my understanding, current policy is we don't evaluate the content of another language article beyond determing it's about the same thing (which in this case it clearly is, POV or not). It seems to me this is a good thing, it would be disastarous for us to start to evaluate other language wikipedia articles to decide if they meet our standards. (I'm sure this problem is not unique to the Arabic wikipedia, I shudder to think what e.g. the Russian and Serbian encylopaedias are like with some articles.) Any prolems other wikipedias have need to be dealt with by the foundation or by contributors to said wikipedias, not by us arbitarily imposing crackdowns on articles on other wikipedias we don't like. Do we need to excplicitly spell this out or is leaving it as one of the many areas of unspoken policy enough? Nil Einne ( talk) 11:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
This came up recently on Joe the Plumber where the en.wikiquote entry was disputed. Cenarium (Talk) 03:14, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I would be opposed to removing interwiki links to articles that are otherwise apporpriate to link (i.e. they are on the same topic), even if the interwiki articles are POV. I think we should leave the links, but let editors of those other language wikis work on improving NPOV. Rather than delinking here, if you notice POV problems on another wp's article, tag it (or better yet, improve it if you can). Aleta Sing 18:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Several editors have decided that, since the city articles they are working on have no airports and are sometimes lacking other facilities like certain key turnpikes, sports arenas, etc. that it is mandatory to mention them in all articles of the city (and suburbs?) near which they are located. Sometimes this makes sense like an airport right near the city that is named after the city. At other times, no sense, as an airport hours away. There are no criteria for the entries, not even common sense and the editors refuse to document that people from their area use the facility at all.
Their contributions appear to me to be off WP:TOPIC since there are perfectly good metropolitan articles covering the subject quite adequately. All a city needs to do is to say that it is part of the metro and link to that article.
It also appears to me that the material is c-of-c boosterism: "My city is as good as your city!" And a bit WP:TRAVEL as well.
They have stopped trying to respond to my arguments and are now saying they "outvote" me and therefore no longer have to answer to Wikipolicy type arguments. I would appreciate help at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities#Airports...and_other_resources. Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 21:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
There is an ongoing Request for Comment at WT:Requested moves#Moving or renaming articles based on poll results. The aim of the RfC is to determine whether and to what extent a majority of editors can be seen to represent a consensus, in the context of page/article moves. Note that this is a policy and not a content issue/dispute. All considered opinions on the nature of consensus are welcome.-- Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 03:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Should Wikipedia be working towards meeting the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines? Please join discussion at Wikipedia talk:Accessibility#WCAG 2.0. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 08:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
If a site meets the requirements of WP:ELNO (that is, if it should NOT be linked to under this policy), can a consensus of editors decided to link to it anyway? The editors plan to say that the information on the site is faulty. Thanks. 80.126.66.106 ( talk) 12:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The article for the Pandora needs more citations, but much of the information pertaining to the device is posted by the head of the development team on the GP32X forums, under the names CraigIX (Craig Rothwell), MWeston (Michael Weston), and EvilDragon (Michael Mrozek).
Would citing a web forum be acceptable under these circumstances? If not, would stating on the official
Openpandora website that they post information on the forum under those usernames make posts from those usernames a reliable source?
atomicthumbs‽ (
talk) 17:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The manual of style gives guidance on Color coding, specifically that it shouldn't be done. I just rewrote the AutoRun article, originally using <pre> to show off code samples. It was then edited by another user to change the "pre"s to "source lang=". This changes black and white to various (garish) colours. I'm not going to start an edit war so is there a policy on code samples like this? Should colour coding be avoided in these cases? If so, why do have the ability to do "source lang=" sections.
I'll also add that the source tag does not produce a rendering that displays correctly in IE6 and other browsers. The dotted line ringfence breaks up and looks silly. I've used a transparent table to ringfence the source section which avoids the display issues. Thanks. Carveone ( talk) 19:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
In 1991 I gave the June29 dictionary organization http://www.june29.com/HLP/lang/pidgin.html)the free use of a list of English and Pidgin as spoken in Port Moresby. Since it was completed and sent to Jun29 after we returned to the States--my wife is a lawyer--it is copywrited. The only thing we asked is that our names always be an appendage to our intellectual work. It appears that our work was copied word for word in Wikipedia and some appendages of Wikipedia. I will not asked for the list be removed from Wikipedia if the heading of the list always contain the words, "Pidgin/English Dictionary as spoken in Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea. List compiled by Terry D. Barhorst and Sylvia O'Dell-Barhorst."
I hope I have to go no further than this e-mail. Terry D. Barhorst Sr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TerryTok ( talk • contribs) 03:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I am editing a Wiki. I am new to this but I'm on a start-page Wiki. I am going to do what was suggested on the page by the Wikipedia experts and discuss the film more. So obviously what I'm going to discuss has spoilers in it, how do I alert this to the readers? I obviously wouldn't say "SPOILER ALERT", but I've never really seen this being done here. Please help, thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProtectMeAura ( talk • contribs) 11:33, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.72.132 ( talk) 18:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
This page is an attempt to formalize stroke get down in writing some of our existing custom and etiquette regarding pages moves, particularly regarding WP:RM and its process. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 13:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
The current proposal for a notability guideline for fiction is nearing completion, and we'd like to get a final round of comments on it to make sure it fully reflects community consensus inasmuch as it exists on this issue. Any comments you can provide at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction) are much appreciated. Thanks. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 15:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Your opinion is sought on a proposal from ArbCom for handling future CheckUser and Oversight appointments. The proposal in full is here and all comments are welcomed. Carcharoth ( talk) 00:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
A discussion is underway at WT:Policies and guidelines about the principles governing changes to policy and the "disputing" of existing policy. Please contribute.-- Kotniski ( talk) 08:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm requesting additional input in an ongoing discussion at WP:MOSCAPS regarding the treatment of personal names with mixed capitalization, centering mostly on whether to move the article Danah Boyd. The latest suggestion to move Danah Boyd stems from what appeared to be a "stable" version of the MOSCAPS policy, but since that move proposal, the MOSCAPS policy itself has been changed and debated. Some new voices would be helpful. Thanks. -- ZimZalaBim talk 19:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Proposal (well, just a vague idea) to develop WP:Policy into a more robust constitution-type document, to make clear to everyone (newbies especially) the way things are done as regards the making and application of rules, but hopefully with the process of drawing up the document spawning proposals for improvements. Please comment there.-- Kotniski ( talk) 09:08, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello everybody.. I would like to ask a question about my account unification. I want my account (:bs:User:Kal-El) to be unified, but there already exists User:Kal-El on it and en wiki (as far as I know). I made my first edit on my home wiki (bs wiki) on May 16, 2005, while he (:it:User:Kal-El) made his first edit on June 11 2005 on his home wiki (it), so I am about one month in front. I would like to know do I have any adventage of getting my username on every wiki? If not, what should I do? I contacted him earlyer, but he said that he has no intention of making his account unified.. -- BiH ( talk) 11:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Over time there has been a great deal of discussion about trivia and how it affects the encyclopedia. Since the creation of Category:Articles with trivia sections and Template:Trivia (roughly 2 and a half years), the rate of new articles tagged with the template has slowed significantly, perhaps even by half, and newly tagged trivia sections are generally much smaller. Now that the wiki is becoming more mature, it feels like standards are bridging the gap between the inclusionist and deletionist divide. It also comes at this time that I think the usefulness of trivia sections is coming to a close, and discussion be made about the the encyclopedic relevance of some kinds of facts.
The general consensus that's floated around at Wikipedia:Trivia sections is that, if all other content rules are followed, lists of random information are accepted for the short term and used for later article development. So when trivia sections get discovered and tagged, their future is to have facts integrated into the rest of the article, or get deleted. And the existence of the section depends on the merit of the facts in the section.
Template:Trivia seems to be used to tag articles with a variety of lists. Most of the time it is used for sections titled Trivia, Facts, Notes and such, which are collections or facts not connected in any way. However, sometimes editors use it to tag sections that they think have a list of low importance facts (stats list, award nominations, long lists of Cultural References, ect), and other editors tag In popular culture sections with the trivia template. The difficulty with these sections has to do with both the kind of fact or trivia bullet, and it's importance to the article. More to the point, it's importance to an encyclopedic treatment of the subject.
There are two remaining issues here that I think need to be resolved. First, what is the threshold that makes one of these orphaned facts worth including? Does the length of an article make facts more likely to be included? In that newly discovered trivia section, what are some good things to remember when keeping and removing content, especially when trivia sections are usually unsourced?
The second related issue comes in with Cultural References and In popular Culture sections. Cultural References sections are usually found in articles like tv shows, books, movies and such when the article subject makes reference to another subject. In popular Culture sections are usually found in the same kinds of articles (plus places, people, ect), and they are lists of when another subject makes reference to the article subject. In both of these cases, the importance of the given fact comes into play, since there needs to be some measurement of when the reference to something really has encyclopedic value.
Certainly there are some subjects that are so culturally significant that and In Popular Culture sections is appropriate. But still, when it comes to improving one of these sections, the issue of when a fact is worth including is still in question. -- Nick Penguin( contribs) 04:44, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
See User:Uncle G/Cargo cult encyclopaedia article writing. Uncle G ( talk) 18:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed that a lot of the articles on civility rely upon disturbing images to make their point.
Do you think this is really conducive toward creating civility on Wikipedia? SharkD ( talk) 02:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Please note that the Arbitration Committee have announced that they have established a new central noticeboard, which will serve as a forum for arbitration-related announcements, notices, and other discussion. Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard for more details.
For the Arbitration Committee,
Ryan PostlethwaiteSee
the mess I've created or
let's have banter 12:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
In an attempt to centralize notability discussion among other things, I've been bold (After a brief discussion) and create a notability noticeboard. This noticeboard is for editors to discuss whether specific sources impart notability on a given subject. Editors are encouraged to use it and give feedback where they feel necessary.-- Crossmr ( talk) 09:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
In an attempt to centralize noticeboard creation...whatever, -- NE2 10:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I seem to have gotten into an edit war at Clovis High School (Clovis, California). Another user insists on inserting non-notable people who don't have articles and don't really pass WP:BIO into the article as lists of notables, and keeps removing my {{unsourced}} tag for those who do have articles. There's no proof that the notables went to the school, and repeatedly re-adding non-notables seems to be a sneaky way to get around WP:BIO. Why not create an article on Bands who play music and list every band that doesn't meet WP:MUSIC? AnyPerson ( talk) 23:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
There have been some very lengthy, extended arguments by several users asserting that
WP:PSTS should not be part of a core content policy, The basic assertion of these users, if I understand their thrust correctly, is that source typing should at most be a guideline that would interact with
WP:WEIGHT,
WP:NOTABILITY,
WP:NOR,
WP:V#Reliable_sources, and
WP:RS.
..... I've set up a little "straw poll" at
Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Proposed_removal_of_WP:PSTS_from_WP:NOR to try to preliminarily get either some kind of affirmation of consensus for WP:PSTS as part of WP:NOR, or alternately to get some preliminary sense of how widespread the current opposition might be to keeping WP:PSTS as policy. Please weigh in if this is an area of interest to you, because some of us have spent a great deal of time defending PSTS from various, often vociferous, complaints. In other words, it's very high maintenance, and if it's ultimately fated to fail as part of WP:NOR, it would be good to get some sense of what the community thinks about it so it can begin to be dealt with accordingly. If not, it would be good to know that too. Thanks. ...
Kenosis (
talk) 20:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
My edit too MOSICON [3] here has been disputed . Can you have a look and indicate if you agree with it Gnevin ( talk) 14:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Time to knock off 200 kilobytes or so. I'm afraid of screwing it up :( hydnjo talk 04:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
My question is: is there a Wikipedia policy requiring that the description or commentary for a link in an article to an external site be "non-controversial and verifiable"? If this is true, would you be kind enough to point me to the policy so I can read it myself? Thank you. 80.126.66.106 ( talk) 12:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
[http://www.example.com Article about bla bla bla]
rather than [http://example.com ARTICLE TITLE]
)."Laws are like sausages — the less you know about how they are made the more respect you have for them." --Attributed to Otto von Bismarck. |
Hello, I compiled a lot of data about the page Wikipedia:Television episodes which may have repercussions beyond that page, particularly about how we determine consensus as a community. I would welcome other editors opinion and critical judgment. Found here: Wikipedia_talk:Television_episodes#Laws_are_like_sausages Ikip ( talk) 13:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Laws are best fried with onions and peppers, and served with beer? Jehochman Talk 14:53, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia Naming Conventions became a policy around mid-2008 but other specific naming conventions which derive from it are still guidelines. Is it logical? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 14:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
There is a discussion about adding additional criteria relating to sale figures at Wikipedia talk:Notability (books)#Sales figures are not listed as a case for notability. Any third party input is welcomed. -- Farix ( Talk) 17:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
See the discussion at WT:FFD#Should files be eligible for PROD. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 20:13, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
This is my second try at getting a good dialogue going on this issue as there have been several contentious AfDs on this subject, and some users seem to be trying to institute an inclusion guideline that, at this time, does not exist. discussion is here and any and all remarks are welcome and appreciated. Beeblebrox ( talk) 21:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee has opened a Request for Comment regarding arbitration enforcement, including a review of general and discretionary sanctions. All editors are encouraged to comment and contribute. The Committee will close the RfC one month from its opening. After the closing, the Committee intends to formalize reform proposals within one month.
For the Committee,
Vassyana (
talk) 23:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does it seem like almost every article on a celebrity is protected from editing except by established users? Also, this extends to pretty much anything that generates a lot of views, such as big issues, etc. I understand it to an extent, but at the same time, I think it is pretty excessive. Protecting articles like George W. Bush and Barack Obama are no-brainers, but when almost every celebrity--even ones who haven't made headlines in a while--are protected from editing, it's too much. I know that sometimes all one needs to do is create an account to edit the article, but that is never worth it if the person just wants to correct grammar or punctuation.
Also, certain articles can only be edited by "established users." I was under the impression that protecting articles was a last resort, or at least temporary means of curbing vandalism to articles of high profile people, but when Kanye West's article has been protected since December of 2007 (along with various other articles), the protection seems permanent. I think article protection is used far too liberally, and I was wondering if I am alone on this, or if others share my sentiments.
Wikipediarul
e
s
2221 21:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Just because there was a failure to reach consensus on a hard and fast policy of notability for schools, that doesn't mean that every school then becomes notable. Others are using the lack of a consensus to build a framework for every single school on earth to eventually have a wikipedia entry which then would become extremely hard to delete without adminstrative fiat. The lack of a specific policy has then created an opportunity for a whole class of articles for which wikipedia is not purposed (a Directory) and will be difficult to extricate. There needs to be a way to cull articles about schools which have no notability other than the fact they exist. Drvoke ( talk) 23:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Another issue to consider, especially with small private schools is that they don't always have websites that they can maintain. An article in Wikipedia may be one of the only "reliable" source of information about the school. Who is the principal? How many students does it have? What is its history? Does it have leanings of some kind? A person researching about schools may not want to ask these questions directly to the school. Also, how do you define a school as being notable? It seems very arbitrary. I vote for allowing schools to have a Wikipedia article. It is a benefit to the end user. Maybe just include a note at the top saying when the last time the data was verified and how it was verified. Zzmonty ( talk) 23:02, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
All schools in Lake Wobegon should be notable. All the students there are above average. David in DC ( talk) 03:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I'm wondering if there's a policy relevant to an edit war that it going on. A majority of editors, but not all involved, agree that content should be removed, but can't provide a reason other than they don't think it adds to the article. This seems extremely subjective, and I was wondering if there is a relevant policy. If necessary, see discussion. -- Elplatt ( talk) 13:56, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Hey all, I have a question - do we think twinkle can be used to revert other editors as long as an edit summary is used (It was originally used for reverting vandals but now can take edit summaries). I haven't seen this clarified elsewhere, but as it has edit summaries now, let's figure it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Casliber ( talk • contribs) 05:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure why we just skipped straight to polling... What exactly is the purpose of this poll? Is there already a rule that prohibits this? I don't think there is currently any rule that defines acceptable reverting techniques, are we going to create one just for this? Mr. Z-man 22:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I posted a question on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_contributors%27_help_page#Lists_of_examples and received the answer that there is no policy or guideline on the subject. I think there should be.
Proposed guideline: not to make section/subsections etc. with examples of... whatever the title of the article is. If any example is worth mentioning, that should be done inside the article itself. If appropriate one could make a separate article with a list of... whatever the title of the article is.
An appropriate template should be constructed to be put up in articles which violate this proposed guideline. Something like "Do not include lists of examples. The most worthy examples should be worked into the article. Consider making an article with a list." Debresser ( talk) 14:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
After an individual Good Article reassessment, I have decided the Culture article should be delisted. Following the GAR instructions, I have removed the article from the Good Articles list, but now meet a problem.... Instructions say remove a GA template from the article Talk:Culture page. That template is not there. Instead there are various Wikiproject templates which rate the quality as GA and the importance of the article. What do I do next?? Can I entirely remove the three project templates, or should I change the parameter from GA in their templates?-- AlotToLearn ( talk) 00:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there a policy that says that on the front page there should be a mention of Poland every other day, either in DYK or OTD? Personally, I'm tired of coming across this endless stream of Polish nationalism and self-celebrating bullshit. Can we get a moratorium? CAN WE GET A GODDAMN BREAK?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.91.52.73 ( talk) 02:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Greetings,
[[redlink]]
for its very useful instructive purposes. –
xeno (
talk) 21:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)Since Wikipedia talk:POINT doesn't get much activity, I thought I'd ask here. Observe what happened. For adding that, I was accused of violating that very guideline, which ironically illustrates the rationale for my addition. PSWG1920 ( talk) 17:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I recently ran across some edits by an editor who has apparently lost all patience with other users. I've never interacted with this editor myself - I am an "uninvolved third party". The actual content of his/her edits is fine, but almost always accompanied by very uncivil comments in edit history or Talk. Editor has been cautioned several times about this and responds with very uncivil remarks. Additionally, this editor's User page says explicitly (and un-civilly) that he/she flatly refuses to abide by
WP:CIVIL.
Considering that, as I say, the actual quality of this user's edits is unproblematical, should Wikipedia begin the warning/block/ban process against this altogether recalcitrant user or just ignore the incivility? --
201.37.230.43 (
talk) 04:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
See [5]. DuncanHill ( talk) 23:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I can only hope and pray that this feature does not do to Wikipedia what I fear that it will. While my precognition is not 100%, I only forsee this as driving away potentially good editors because the encyclopedia anyone can edit will become "The encyclopedia only people we approve of can edit". This turn of events greatly saddens me. It will be a shame if the encyclopedia's growth is stunted because, in the name of stopping someone from inserting an occasional swear word into an article as a joke, we drive away all future new editors... I hope and pray this does not do what I envision it doing... -- Jayron32. talk. contribs 03:43, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I understood it was only going to be applied to BLPs to start with. Seems a good way to try this out on a limited scale - none of us will really be able to say whether it's a good or bad thing until we've sucked it and seen how it works in practice.-- Kotniski ( talk) 09:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
This isn't technically a policy proposal, but it is pretty close to one and I wanted to insure that all interested parties were given a chance to voice their opinion, so I'm posting a notice here as well as under the proposals section. Feel free to delete this if it doesn't belong.
Linkrot is a major problem on all major websites, and Wikipedia is not exception. WebCite.org is a free service that archives web pages on demand. I am proposing a bot (coded by me) that will automatically submit URLs recently added to Wikipedia to WebCite and then supplement the Wikipedia link. For full disclosure, this idea is not original to me but rather has been suggested by others in the past and most recently by Peregrine Fisher but never actually acted upon.
For full details and discussion, please visit: Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/WebCiteBOT
Thank you, ThaddeusB ( talk) 04:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Recently, I've been reverting the use of "class='navbox'" in the mainspace. Is that a good idea? A user really insists on using that on tables on the mainspace, and they're not even navboxes. – Howard the Duck 17:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
While all pictures and illustrations in articles seem to be kept at thumbnail size, it seems to this user that the leading, or head paragraph could and should be free to be larger than thumbnail. I see editors constantly reducing all pictures to thumbnail size wherever they find them. Is there a Wikipedia policy on this? JohnClarknew ( talk) 22:13, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
There are many many stub biographies of current and past holders of noble titles, many of them being quite obscure. I guess there is already a policy that all noblemen are inherently notable, thus safe from deletion, no matter how minor. This has left wikipedia rather "noble heavy," with stubs on countless people nobody ever heard of, or cares about. I propose that we draw a line in the sand, to wit, that while historical noblemen of english or european peoples can remain notable, the nobility of non-european peoples be subject to standard "notablity" guidelines, e.g., they have had to have accomplished something notable themselves, rather than simply "deserving" an article simply because they were the 18th duke of some obscure region of Mongolia nobody ever heard of. Your thoughts please. Pepe Machao ( talk) 02:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Instead of just having Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion (AfD's) is having Wikipedia:Articles for Userfication (AfU's) also.
This is being discussed here: PLEASE COMMENT HERE: Wikipedia talk:Articles_for_deletion travb ( talk) 11:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
In various aircraft crash articles, editor Anynobody has created many illustrations of aircraft as he imagines they appeared soon before crashing. ( His page on the Commons contains these images with links to their Wikipedia articles on en.)
I believe strongly these images are WP:OR and are not allowed for the illustration of Wikipedia articles. They are imaginings of an editor. Images like the illustration to the right are particularly offensive because so much is unprovable speculation. Were the aircraft in those exact positions? What about their exact attitudes? Were there birds in the sky? Was there a cloud right near the aircraft as depicted? What about the contrails? Similarly, File:Dc10erebus.png is a guess about how a volcano might have appeared to the snowblind pilots. Nobody knows if this is what the scene looked like, or will ever know. I appreciate that it has taken a lot of time and work, presumably, to create these illustrations, but they are clearly OR and need to be removed. Tempshill ( talk) 21:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
WP:NOMORE is aimed to suggest a way for reducing the instruction creep. 212.200.241.72 ( talk) 14:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
There are currently 52 policies and there is not a single page with the list of ALL guidelines. There are 74 guidelines without Style (about 100) and Naming conventions (about 60). How many of those did receive a broad community input?
For example, why is WP:SCG needed when there is WP:CS. If you look at the discussion page history and archives, you will see that it really didn't receive a broad community input. I am sure this is also true for many other guidelines, and maybe even some policies. 212.200.241.72 ( talk) 00:24, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
So AKA's site got hammered ?!? :( I will have to use the script some other day. 212.200.241.72 ( talk) 17:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Statistics report is complete. Feedbacks welcome!
212.200.241.72 (
talk) 01:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree there is a problem. I am going to use the example of Wikipedia:Television_episodes. In the request for comment, an almost 2 to 1 majority of editors were opposed to the guideline. (See Wikipedia_talk:Television_episodes#2). But it became a guideline because the editors supporting the guideline wrote much more than the majority. This guideline then continued to be guideline, despite attempts to demote and question the guideline. A small group of like minded editors refused to allow tags questioning the guideline ({{ Disputedtag}}) on the page for over a year and a half, and continue to do so today Wikipedia_talk:Television_episodes#1.
Based on my findings, the solution to rule creep would be:
The bottom line is that veteran editors are the editors who created these guidelines and they will be loath to change them. The current ways that content rules are created and enforced rewards veteran "elite" editors. Ikip ( talk) 10:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
It would improve the relevance of articles if each paragraph could be rated, once a paragraph had received enough votes ( more than 10% of all visitors in 7 days, over a period of however long it takes), then that paragraph is marked as robust and relevant. This means edits to this paragraph have to be approved or you have to type your name and email against any new edits.
It's often the case that edits contain irrelevant info or someones feels the need to raise an issue that doesn't really need raising. I just feel that a social tool, such as this would be really useful at keeping a communities eye on the content and keeping things in line.
Thanks for considering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.193.194 ( talk) 23:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
<< well at the moment any individual can do this, where as with this new system a group of people who read and have interest in the article can do this.
As a new editor, I was recently told here at the Village Pump that, if I'm going to delete content, I have to discuss it on the discussion page of the relevant article first. So I did that. I consistently made entries on the discussion page of the Illegal immigration in the United States article as, over the span of several weeks, I checked the sources to make sure they were relevant and accurately represented. I worked with the community to fix the problems I found. Now a new editor has reverted all that work - his edit summary states, "rv to last npov version.". I reverted his revert, stating in my edit summary, "take it to the talk page-I've been very careful to discuss the reasons for all these edits with the community". He reverted my revert stating, "Discussion does mean consensus, and consensus cannot violate npov. Maybe you should talk it to talk and get some AGREEMENT first" - but, note, he hasn't posted anything in the talk page. So how do I avoid an edit war with someone who won't read or post to the talk page?- 65.189.247.6 ( talk) 03:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Here's what I'm thinking. Instead of a blanket policy like the one Jimbo suggested, where each new edit by a new or unnamed user would have to be approved before it could be a part of the official article, why not simply eliminate the anonymous user bit and make everyone sign...and explain...their work?
What I had in mind is this: whenever someone wants to use the "edit" feature, fields would appear on the screen asking for their name, and an explanation of why the edit is being made. These would be mandatory fields; leaving either one blank would cause an automatic rejection of the edit.
My feeling is that if you're editing something like Wikipedia, and you're doing it because your knowledge of the subject allows you to correct a factual error or some such, you shouldn't mind signing your real name to it or explaining why you feel it's necessary. The use of the real name (perhaps with accompanying valid e-mail address) would allow Wikipedia monitors to contact anyone who they feel is abusing the privilege and get after them...and the explanation of the edit allows the site's moderators to research and validate for accuracy. And it would also serve to weed out the vandals, by making it harder for them to hide or to hit and run as they tend to do.
I think this approach would accomplish what Jim wants to do, without having to bog down every new edit with a day or more delay...and without having to completely bog down the site's already-hard-working staff by having to make them review every new edit one at a time, in depth. Granted, having the explanation field would still require a little bit of review on someone's part, but I'm thinking that it wouldn't be as intense a review, because the explanation would sort of have to cover your source for knowing the edit is necessary...and that narrows down where the moderators would have to go to verify it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.170.11.126 ( talk) 23:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
The whole situation with flagged revisions seems to divide opinions on BLPs. So why don't we do away with the four-day rule for editing semi-protected accounts, and have an "opt-in" system.
In short, non-BLP articles would work as near as makes no difference the same as at present (simply say that accounts created after semi-protection cannot edit that semi-protected article). All BLPs would be flagged revisions for anons and "untested" users (feel free to suggest a more diplomatic term). Current adminstrators and rollbackers would automatically be flagged as able to edit, and have the ability to flag a user who is deemed to be trustworthy. Short term it could cause a headache, so there's a simple solution- don't introduce it immediately, have a period of time for good users to get themselves flagged. After the initial surge flagging wouldn't be a big job, as in 90% of cases rollbackers could clearly see that someone was making positive contributions, meaning a dedicated page for requesting the flag shouldn't be too time-intensive. This approach would mean that flagged revisions would be almost exclusively IP's (new editors worth their salt would presumably get the flag quite quickly). In turn, IP edits should appear on wikipedia faster, as the rollbackers aren't wasting their time with editors who will almost certainly not cause a problem. Non BLPs would still work in the same way they always have, and the BLP contributions will still get there, albeit a little later.
I recognise the fundamental concern in that paragraph... "almost certainly". My answer to this is simple. Wikipedia cannot "certainly" stop all vandalism and simultaneously be an up to date, credible encyclopaedia that anyone can edit. A good legal system will almost certainly stop me killing the first person I see on the street, while at the same time not overly restricting my civil liberties. BeL1EveR ( talk) 00:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm moving for the repealing of criterion for speedy deletion T1. I invite your opinions and discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Removal_of_T1_redux. Dcoetzee 03:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I propose we scrap non-admin closures for deletion debates. They are causing more problems then good. The non-admin closing the deletion isn't always following the guidelines for non-admin closures and it isn't always a clear cut case in which (s)he is dealing with. Also most of the time the non-admin doesn't declare that its a non-admin closure so the people participating in the debate think the debate was closed by an admin. As an alternative, we could !elect a group of people (similar to mediators) that close deletion debates. Thoughts? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 02:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I myself am a non-admin and I have WP:NACd several AfD debates, I only SNOW when its 100% keep (with a good amount of solid votes) after one day or more and normal NAC when there is generally only one deletion argument and it is weak compared to the keep arguments (which should be ~85% or more of the total votes). WP:NAC doesn't mention mentioning that your a non-admin when closing, although the closing script I now use does automagically put in that it is a NAC. I don't believe that I have made any serious mistakes (if any) and have never been reverted by an admin. Why should the good little NAC boys and girls not be allowed to close AfD debates? It saves time for admins, and when done right has a net positive to the project. Why can't we just crack down on those who are being naughty, for example, by stripping them of their NAC powers? Foxy Loxy Pounce! 08:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Also most of the time the non-admin doesn't declare that its a non-admin closure Can you provide some evidence that this statement is true? Otherwise I feel I need to mark it with a {{ cn}} tag. Ruslik ( talk) 13:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
user:Ruslik0 asked about examples where the non-admin doesn't mark the closure of the afd as a non-admin closure, here are some examples:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/André Dallaire
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of United States presidential candidates, 2008
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Geoffrey_Eggleston
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Renzo_Gracie_Legacy
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Graphical Identification and Authentication
There are probably a lot more. Another concern I have is that since the non-admin doesn't have the abilities to delete an article, they're closure is biased towards Keeping the article. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 16:24, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
If non-admins can make closures to deletion debates, these closures should not be immune to Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle so any editor who feels that the closure was improper can revert the closure without having to sent it to WP:DRV. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Monthly updates of content and enforcement policy continue at WP:Update. I did the January updates a little early; if the advance notice is helpful, and if people use it to fix things that have "gone wrong" (and what that means is up to you guys), then I'll keep doing updates twice a month.
This is going to come as no shock at all, but most undiscussed edits to content and policy pages that significantly change the meaning are not good changes, because they reflect one person's view rather than the grudging compromises worked out by hundreds of people. This is true even when the edits are pretty intelligent and done in good faith; that's not enough to get it right, you also have to read the archives and invite discussion to have much of a chance of not stepping on someone's toes. I've decided there really isn't anything I can do about this; if I'm heavy-handed, then people won't trust me to do the updates. All I can do is sit back and see if problems get fixed; if things get worse rather than better over several months, then I'll come back to VPP, and we'll decide if there's consensus that things have gotten worse, and figure out what to do about that. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 13:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
A new version of Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction) has been proposed. Please comment on the talk page. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) ( contribs) 00:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I dont see why there is all this fuss. Why not simply fork the data and leave wikipedia to stagnate and die under a mountain of extra work that will come about from closing the edits to the general populace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.76.247 ( talk) 10:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
At the moment the Wikipedia:Editing policy seems to be a little overlooked and that it contains sections that give advice that is contrary to the advise in some of the three content policies ( WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:V)
So that there can be no confusion, between policies, I have proposed on the talk page of the "Editing policy" that it be demoted to a guideline, because AFAICT it does not cover any areas which are not already covered by other policies and guidelines so there is no need for it to remain a policy.
Even if the current problems are fixed, it will have to be kept up to date with the content policies, which means that if it remains a policy it will always be in danger of giving contrary advise to that of the main content policies. If it is a guideline then this is not such a problem because "Policies and guidelines express standards that have community consensus. Policies are considered a standard that all editors should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature." ( WP:policies and guidelines)
So that all the conversation is centralised please make any comments on this suggestion at Wikipedia talk:Editing policy#Demote to a guideline -- PBS ( talk) 11:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
an active proposal that sais Wikipedia should be a mainstream encyclopedia. Comments? 212.200.243.116 ( talk) 13:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
In a recent dispute with another user, it was noticed that this user had changed some of Wikipedia's guidelines to support this user's argument. I believe that the guideline articles are different to an average article in Wikipedia. They are our rule book, perhaps even our constitution, and they have already been refined to a high standard. Like all constitutions, I think a more elaborate process is needed to change them. I am concerned that someone could slip in an innocent looking change with unforeseen repercussions without a serious review having taken place. Even if this change were reversed a few hours or days later, in the meantime someone else might have been forced to concede a change to an article which would not have been justifiable before guidelines had been amended. I therefore propose that any change should be justified in advance with several examples to illustrate the current problem and why the proposed change would solve it. Since the guidelines are important, I would also like to suggest that a longer period must elapse than for, say, a article for deletion. Please accept my apologies if this is a perennial suggestion. JMcC ( talk) 12:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Wiki's are community driven websites, and it is for this reason that I think moderation should be a task for the community. Wikipedia should develop functionality that is similar to the Flagged Revision, but improves upon some of its shortcomings.
I propose:
There should be three criteria in order for modification to be committed/published:
Here is a break down of the system using the settings used in the examples above.
Since all users of Wikipedia are involved, there is no bottleneck of modification for "trusted" users to review and moderation becomes a task for all users, even anonymous ones. In addition, new contributions are instantly made visible to readers through the notification system while still leaving them obscure from the main content in order to deter vandalism. This system will encourage users to get involved by reviewing modifications, even if they don't currently feel comfortable contributing their own edits. Also, the review process will help all editors become familiar with Wikipedia's standards and will improve the quality of their own contributions.
Pbarnes ( talk) 04:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
"You can edit this page right now" is a core guiding check on everything that we do. We must respect this principle as sacred.
Ibuki (satellite), which recently launched, lacks a photo. JAXA, Japan's space exploration agency, holds the copyrights for numerous photos on their website. Their Terms of Use page (in English) makes it sound to me like they are giving permission for anyone to use the photos for educational purposes (see section 2(1)) under a license similar to CC-by-nc-nd, except that (a) it's educational, not noncommercial; (b) they reserve the right to change their Terms of Use at any time; and (c) there are a few miscellaneous odd prohibitions, like, the user isn't permitted to use the photos for "Acts which are conducted for the purpose of or in a manner offending public order and morals".
Long story short: I think there's a good argument for allowing JAXA images on Wikipedia and would like to know where to post about this, and if others agree, then adding a JAXA tag for photo uploads. Thanks - Tempshill ( talk) 06:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Especially when discussing cultural references in popular media, I find lots of useful information is deleted by editors complaining of a lack of citations. This tends to end with the article consisting entirely of a re-iteration of the plot (e.g. various South Park episodes). Most of these are along the lines of "this scene is the same as that scene in a different work", or "this character also appears in that work". These can be verified by simply looking at the two works in question. In many cases it would be difficult to find an acceptable source that explicitly points this out. Should every example of this have an in-line citation for both works, left alone as obviously using the named primary sources, or deleted pending a secondary source? As a corollary, statements such as "in this episode this happens" shouldn't need in-line citations. Discuss. – OrangeDog ( talk • edits) 23:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) In regards to trivia, cultural references and fan cruft-if something isn't notable and relevant enough to be mentioned by reliable sources that can be verified, is it really something worth being in an encyclopedia article? I mean if no one else in the world thought that such and such reference, parody or what not was important enough to write about in an independent reliable source, then why should Wikipedia be the first? That seems like cut & dry WP:OR. If a cultural reference is truly notable, someone else will be talking about it that we can attribute a verifiable reliable source to. Agne Cheese/ Wine 03:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) This shouldn't be an argument about trivia sections (I agree that they're a bad thing). This is about whether synthesis verifiable by anyone who has seen both sources, but non-obvious to someone unfamiliar with one of them, should be included, even if a reliable secondary source cannot be found. Assuming both sources are notable.– OrangeDog ( talk • edits) 19:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Is it at all feasible for the Wikimedia Foundation to purchase online news subscriptions for the purpose of referencing? It would be nice to be able to use articles like this one for references. Grand master ka 20:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I just posted a very similar comment to this on another site, so apologies if anyone has already seen it.
Vandalism is a problem and no site is immune from it. Wikipedia has managed to form a good reputation for itself, in spite of these recurrent episodes.
The problem extends far beyond Wiki. Dedicated vandals and spreaders of misinformation can even infiltrate organisations as tightly controlled as mainstream news publications and government broadcasters.
Can a system of Flagged Revisions really deter the dedicated vandal? And could it create a new type of problem, in creating misplaced trust in content that is still prone to manipulation.
I believe a system of 'Flagged Revisions' could falsely validate content by improving user confidence in Wikipedia while failing to deter the devoted vandal.
A system of 'Flagged Revisions' could also shut out genuine contributions from knowledgeable users who spend less time on Wikipedia. This could mean content would be driven by Wikipedians who spend a lot of time on the project. Wikipedians who spend a lot of time on the project, while very experienced in using Wiki tools, perhaps spend less time gathering information or gleaning new article ideas outside Wikipedia. A system of 'Flagged Revisions' could exclude valuable material created by people with expertise in other areas.
Wikipedia entries have been created by many, many, unknown contributors and volunteers. 'Flagged Revisions' will be approved by one of these characters, or another, and will have, in my opinion, no more validity than an instant edit does now. It is hardly as if Wiki content is currently created by a small team of known editors who can be held to account. If Wiki does reduce content by limiting user activity and forming an editorial team, in order to monitor content and approvals, what is there to distinguish Wikipedia from any other encyclopaedia?
In Summary:
Perhaps, Wikipedia could choose proven well edited entries and make a special more encyclopaedic edition from those. Instead of flagging all new or anonymous user Wiki revisions, Wikipedia could encourage accuracy by rewarding quality entries with inclusion in a protected 'feature' encyclopedia. Wikipedia proper could be retained as it is, as a sort of catchment area for articles in development. Instead of clamping down on all content, dedicated users could choose from the overall pool and elevate well researched examples to a more 'protected' status (while retaining working copies of these that can still be commonly edited).
Perhaps these well researched and exquisitely written 'protected' entries could become a benchmark for all contributors to aspire to. These entries could even be published, in a print edition, generating revenue to hire the team of staff that would be required to edit an encyclopaedia to this calibre. The publication could have a special name, and be distinct from Wikipedia which would retain all of the vibrancy that it has today - with its vigorous community dedicated to unbiased truthful content, accessibility and freedom of content creation.
A print edition of well written and researched pieces could also serve to attract more knowledgeable contributors to Wikipedia, and raise Wikipedia's profile amoung non-Wikipedians.
Because most Wiki content is generated by volunteers, totally for free, a print edition should steer towards being accessible in cost and not-for-profit. Aside from covering the cost of production, I believe that a sizable percentage of any profit should go to a worthy and charitable cause. Perhaps profit could help supply laptops to underprivileged children, or fund independent journalistic projects, or offset carbon emissions.
Key Solution Points:
Tim Foyle ( talk) 10:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the reliability of Wikipedia, we should consider a concept similar to releasing software. In that realm, "release candidates" are cut, and revised within narrower constraints until there's a consensus that it's releasable. To this goal, Wiki could introduce the concept of "editions" being cut somewhat infrequently (monthly, quarterly, annually) and refined to remove inconsistencies, errors, but having greater editorial control (for instance, concurrence of others to make changes). The public would continue to have the present "cutting edge" edition available as always, but for the purposes of "peer-reviewed" reliability which some might require, the more closely edited "release candidates" should gain greater acceptance. This could solve not only the problems of knee-jerk updates about famous people, but also allow the Edition to be vetted for internal consistency (broken links detected, removed).
For practical viewing purposes, a person viewing an article might first see the latest (as now), but also links on the left pointing to the last several "reviewed" editions of the article. In particular, this would be a way to test-drive peer-review policies without removing the "edit at will" principle. In other words, (almost) anyone can edit at will, but these may not make it into a monthly/quarterly edition, both by the ordinary course of events (corrected) and by additional review.
An objection to this might be the scale of the endeavour: subjecting a monster like Wiki to a new edition very often could impossibly increase workload of contributors. To this end, it might be necessary to introduce the feature to particular "zones" (subject areas) such as "Mathematics", "US History", with the list extended to those subjects with a "sponsor" (someone "credible" with the bandwidth to devote to editorship).
I'm particularly mindful of the need to have a frozen/settled set of consistent pages to properly cover a scientific area, especially something like an area I know well like advanced mathematics in which we not only have to have accurate pages, but complete pages where all the cross-references work.
Modus Vivendi ( talk) 05:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
One of the things that I have noticed during my time on Wikipedia, is that AfDs should run for 5 days, and should be closed when they get to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old (as per the deletion policy) but AfDs rarely actually reach that page.
Some recent stats for you:
Now I don't know about you guys, but to me, this is indicative of a system that does not work correctly. The whole point of AfD is the discussion should run for 5 days, unless the article meets speedy deletion criteria, or the votes are snow votes. Now I highly doubt that all of the deletions in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2009 January 25 are clear cut (in fact it's a basic certainty), so why are they all being closed early? With this I believe we have two options,
Opinions? Foxy Loxy Pounce! 10:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Say an IP registared to Ford Motor Company edits a page on one of there cars. Would that slightly be WP:Autobiography? -- Here Ford 18:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed all the word pronunciations on Wikipedia use IPA exclusively.
I've also noticed that I've never once been able to figure out how a word was pronounced by looking up its entry on Wikipedia. Ever.
Is there a reason that the English Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org) does not provide traditional (pre-IPA dictionary movement) English dictionary style pronunciation guides in addition to IPA? I can see the usefulness of IPA for entries that have foreign pronunciations, but the simple fact is requiring people to learn an entirely new alphabet to figure out the pronunciation of the word doesn't seem that useful.
I'm not saying that IPA isn't useful. I'm saying that it would make sense to put a slightly more useful pronunciation guide along side the IPA one when appropriate. I'm basing this on the assumption that a very, very small fraction of people that visit Wikipedia actually know how to read IPA pronunciations. I may be wrong, in fact, I may be one of only a small handful of people that read this that don't know IPA -- and in that case, well, apologies for my ignorance.
This: /meɪnˈjɛərz/ really doesn't tell me much of anything, and I suspect it doesn't tell much of anything to more than a handful of other people.
What was the rationale behind only providing pronunciations with IPA?
I'm talking about the English version because I read English, but the same applies to any of the other languages as well.
-- 24.190.217.35 ( talk) 14:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the initial writer that the "required" use of IPA creates a lot of problems. Only a tiny minority of English speakers (i.e., our target reading audience) have any understanding of IPA. Many browsers in current use do not support the character set unless specially loaded, rendering it impossible to read the IPA pronunciation even if one understands the "alphabet". The theory that it will aid non-native speakers of English is again dependent on the likelihood of their knowing that format; I work with a large number of well-educated non-native English speakers and not one had ever seen it (aside from a speech pathologist, who uses it in her work). Given that there are often multiple pronunciations of the same word, dependent upon regional dialect, the "one size fits all" premise of including a single IPA pronunciation isn't necessarily all that useful. (Compare the pronunciation of the word "drawer" in Boston, London, Winnipeg, and Sydney. They're all different.) Summary: I don't know anyone that an IPA pronunciation has helped, but many people whom it's confused or frustrated. Idealism is lovely, but not necessarily reader-friendly. Risker ( talk) 18:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, IPA's are a little more bitter than I care for---and definitely too hoppy.--- Balloonman PoppaBalloon CSD Survey Results 18:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC) EDIT: I was a little disappointed that only one person picked up on what I said (on my talk page)... everybody else responded to this erroneous.--- Balloonman PoppaBalloon CSD Survey Results 15:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
it would be an excellent addition to Wikipedia's toolkit to have a text-to-speech generator rendering IPA strings on demand. -- dab (𒁳) 20:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Wiktionary is. And over there not only do we use multiple pronunciation guides, we even have sound files of native speakers in different dialects speaking the words. (And we welcome the efforts of anyone who wants to add more of the same to the articles that don't yet have it.) See d:mush#English and d:clique#English for two randomly-selected examples. You want to find out how to pronounce a word? Look in a dictionary, not an encylopaedia. Uncle G ( talk) 05:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I've always said the IPA pronunciation was completely hopeless to anyone who'd normally be reading Wikipedia. Those should go away, and either be replaced by what you'd see in a dictionary or a link to a site like Wiktionary that handles it more comprehensively. Adding information that's of use to no one and confuses most people is just bad policy. DreamGuy ( talk) 15:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I support the use of IPA. It is not "completely hopeless" to have a standard way of explaining how a word is pronounced across the project. We have enough issues with not having standard techniques across articles without trying to jettison IPA. doktorb words deeds 11:02, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Statistically speaking, nobody understands IPA and nobody uses it. I agree with the original poster and I resent greatly that several persistent PhDs in linguistics have foisted this upon the community. Tempshill ( talk) 21:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Reasonsing for mandatory IPA is flawed
I strongly agree that the primary pronounciation guide should not be IPA, but something intuitive that an average reader can understand and use. Mainstream media doesn't use IPA for exactly this reason. Consider a current article on the BBC website on "How to pronounce Davos" [14]This is simple to understand as it is intuitive. There is nothing intuitive about IPA and thus it doesn't serve the key purpose of enabling the average reader to understand how a word should be pronounced. Savlonn ( talk) 01:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The technical justifications for using IPA are flawed as they put this criterion above the core principle of having an encylopedia that is easy for people to use. Savlonn ( talk) 01:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The use of prescriptive notation at the cost of readability has been addressed eslewhere within Wikipedia, with overwhelming results favouring readability over the use of obscure standards. This should be the case with IPA as well.-- Savlonn ( talk) 01:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The infobox is longer than the article and it makes whoever made the stub look like an absolute idiot. 99.50.50.41 ( talk) 23:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I like the lack of commercial ads, but you should have an ad of the week at the home page where you have all of the other facts of the day. It would not get in the way of wiki-users and would be a solid source of income to keep wikipedia flourishing. And by keeping the ad out of the way of most users, the purity of wikipedia would still be preserved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.22.99 ( talk) 15:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Isn't there a policy or guideline which looks down on tallying votes during a RfC? I swear I read it somewhere before. Ikip ( talk) 18:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is like a city with mostly good neighborhoods and a few bad ones. Certain topical categories (neighborhoods) attract vandals repeatedly, and, when vandalized, cause the most damage to site credibility and to the living people or organizations vandalized articles are about.
So: Rather than impose flagging globally, which creates increased workload for approvers (whoever they are), and a bottleneck that doesn't exist now, why not identify high-crime categories and make them, and ONLY them, flaggable? This would keep most of Wikipedia free of flagging delays.
How? Start with a META-REVIEW to inventory all of Wikipedia's high-vandalism areas, all the corners of the ontology where vandals tend to lurk. Senior editors can do this using their experience, help from the community and robot site crawlers. Once a vandalism prone category is identified, institute flagging on the entire category or on selected articles within it.
An example: Articles about politicians in-office might be a flaggable category. Wikipedia could cordone off the "political officeholder" branches in its ontology, or hand-select especially controversial / edited / discussed people within that branch. All revisions in those troublespots would be automatically flagged. Then the flagged revisions can crawled, sorted by topic onto an ontology sitemap. Editors and/or user-voters can review/rate those revisions for fairness and accuracy.
Who does the editing? Any registered true ID user can volunteer for access to review flagged revisions in categories they know about. To retain their status as trusted de-flaggers, these reviewers would have to review many articles, not just revise a few. Steady interaction with a broad diversity of articles is a pretty reliable indicator of impartiality. (Limited activity in only a few entries of one political party would not be.)
Think of this as a Tipping Point approach to a Wikipedia clean up, like the 42nd street clean up in New York City during the 90's, or crime rates going down after subway graffiti is eliminated. Clean up the right areas and everything improves.
I'm against a policy of demanding real identities from every visitor who wants to contribute. Why eliminate spontaneous, anonymous user-editing just to deter a few vandals? Anonymous sources are essential to societies. Deep Throat helped expose Watergate. Witness protection programs exist for a reason. We would never have seen the Abu Ghraib photo disc if the soldier who turned it in felt his identity would NOT be protected. Yes, masked anonymous bandits can do damage, but a targeted neighborhood clean-up solution, like this, would eliminate much of that without fundamentally changing Wikipedia's look, feel or function.
Wikipedia knowledge is made possible by a self-correcting social sieve that allows free errors and correction to be added in the majority of its entries by the majority of users. Just because a few users can't be trusted, doesn't mean most can't. Most can, in fact. And most neighborhoods are safe. Just find out where the bad apples lurk and put more cops on the street there.
Tim M., Woodstock, NY
WP:VER says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."
Today an editor made a change to Lucena Position, saying that the old moves were wrong. I checked and that is the truth. However, the moves he replaced are verifiable - they are in the source, the book by de la Villa. So what do we do in a case like this? Truth or verifiability? Bubba73 (talk), 17:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Removing it is an easy option. Just because something has sources, doesn't mean that it is worth keeping---especially if you know its wrong. The issue arises if you think it is wrong and somebody else says, "No, it's right and should remain in the article." In that case, they will have the advantage of having the sources while you only have OR.--- Balloonman PoppaBalloon CSD Survey Results 20:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Re. Mangoe: Is there a verifiability police?
Having an otherwise reliable source that has made an error (or a strongly suspected error), is not a good reason to to copy that error into Wikipedia. However, if you can't achieve consensus (on the article talk page) to delete the incorrect school, then there is not much you can o except write a brief footnote for readers. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 16:14, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
38 support - 27 oppose - 6 neutral. =71 total
27/ 71 = 0.38028169 % oppose 38/ 71 = 0.535211268% support
Is this enough to make it a guideline? Yes, I know there are other factors, including the comments of the editors, but as a general rule, based on past guideline rfc's is this enough? Ikip ( talk) 15:57, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
The plant editors have been hounded for going on three months now by a pair of editors (who also disagree strongly with each other and include their battles on policy/guidelines talk pages, too) about their disagreement with the naming conventions for flora articles, namely, that plant editors have established naming guidelines that scientific names should be used. They have strongly convinced me that the conventions should be changed and scientific names should be required for all organisms. I have started a talk at Wikipedia naming conventions and invite other concerned editors to weigh in. -- KP Botany ( talk) 21:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't want describe long.
referce www.cyworld.com/acdc9 diary movie board in Korean
Good luck! —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
Yes, civility is a policy, an official policy here, and it is supposed to be a widely accepted standard that should normally be followed by all editors. However, it is not.
No matter how much you are annoyed by someone, no matter how much someone bugs you, be civil. Because someone is in your eyes a jerk, that does not make it okay to bad mouth the person in talk pages, nor does it make it okay for you to engage in mean-spirited banter with others. Set a good example of behavior. Even when dealing with the worst of the worst, don't stoop to that level. Some threads out there mocking other people are really quite repulsive. Kingturtle ( talk) 06:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
If there are unanswered questions on the project talk pages, is there any central place where this can be highlighted, so that volunteers can help answer them?
For instance, there are two questions on Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy. Jay ( talk) 08:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Discussion is here 212.200.243.116 ( talk) 12:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
For anyone interested, I have proposed we decentralize the Arbitration Committee. Tim Q. Wells ( talk) 23:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I see that people contributing are quite prolific writers but I will keep this short.
What is special about Wikipedia. People can see their contributions as soon as they have finished editing. So preferably new entries must be immediately displayed but with some kind of clear indication that they have not been fully approved. This could take the form of color-coding. With this system all new entries would appear red for example, distinguishing them from the standard text. Readers therefore know very clearly which parts of the article they can trust and which they should be a bit more cautious about.
Problem solved without any radical and constraining use of flagging. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omarcoaa ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Two suggestions from joeytwiddle: What about a little red message at the top saying "Recent changes to this article have not yet been verified as accurate. You may wish to view the _last_confirmed_version_." ? Visitors to the site could also thumbup or thumbdown changes, so that vandalism could be automatically removed after enough thumbdowns.
I heartily concur - no serious instances of vandalism remain uncontested within the first 24 hrs, or 48 : text that appears red for the first 48 hrs of its existence, and then replaces the intended previous sections automatically provided no complaints have been received... automatic, transparent, and largely foolproof? much better than all the beauraucratic mucking about suggested above, with no-one sure which edition they're stuck in. [Breaking news like sudden deaths should anyway be left to the news desks, but if they're not, at least being coded in red would make things clear!] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.143.203.88 ( talk) 10:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
If this were to be implemented, I would suggest colour the text grey so it doesn't stand out so much, leaving the prominent black (reliable) text as what catches the readers eye--ClubOranje Talk 09:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Recent changes to this article have not yet been verified as accurate. You may wish to view the last reviewed version |
ViperSnake151 12:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
When a page is posted on Wikipedia it is picked up by (eg) Google very fast indeed. in general that is a great thing. In the case of an Attack page it is not. With an attack page this spreads the libel far faster than one could possibly imagine.
Is it technically possible to remove search engine's ability to spider such pages, even in the often short time they stay online here?
My thinking is that the speedy deletion template might contain a trigger to mark the page as "not to be spidered" in some technical manner that is recognised by all major search engines. This means that individuals flagging such pages and admins deleting them require no special knowledge.
Of course this may be done already. But, if it is not, might we form a consensus over it and then ask a knowledgeable person to implement it if the consensus is favourable, please? Fiddle Faddle ( talk) 13:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Does __NOINDEX__
work?--
Ipatrol (
talk) 04:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a request for comment open regarding A-Class assessments and reviews. All input is welcome. - Drilnoth ( talk) 22:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
What is the policy on tagging articles with stub, orphan, wikify etc? Where is it articulated?
I ask since I'm aware that Wikipedia:WikiProject Orphanage appears intent on tagging very many orphan articles with {{ orphan}}. I'm not at all keen on this, since I prefer to read my articles sans distracting tags. Neither do I think that such tags are a great way of solving a problem - not least since that project's policy seems to be that an article needs three incoming links before the tag is removed.
According to Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-01-31/Orphans there are just under 700,000 articles which would qualify for an Orphan tag. 45,000 are already tagged.
My main interest at the moment is in geotagging. Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates got flack in no uncertain terms when it tried to place a tiny tiny "needs geotagging" link in the top right of an article, in the place where a geo-coordinate goes. So the question for me: how did we get to the point where one project can (my view) despoil article by the hundred thousand, and another project not? Where did we give license to the orphan project to do as they seem to be proposing? -- Tagishsimon (talk) 04:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Please join the new discussion about the possible establishment of Guidelines for "China" vs. "PRC" usage on the People's Republic of China article -- Cybercobra ( talk) 06:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I'd like some help regarding Wikipedia's structure. I cannot locate the relevant person to deal with a problem I would like to raise. Who does one contact about the subjectivity of administrators? If administrators appear to have operated outwith their sphere of knowledge and therefore are making inappropriate editorial decisions which mean that information which has no factual basis is not presented as such and that factual information on the subject is being withheld from the public because it disagrees with the viewpoint of the administrators, is there anything that can be done about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 ( talk) 23:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC) (Moved from section above by Jeremy ( v^_^v Dittobori))
Thanks for your reply. However, I'm still trying to find out who would be the relevant person to deal with. For example, in certain parts of Wikipedia, particularly those of minority cultures, the number of administrators is not large and any weakness in their capacities as administrator is difficult to challenge within their own domain. The problem with a board like the one you suggest in that kind of situation is that it depends on the complainant having i) the requisite information and experience to pursue his complaint (a newbie wouldn't necessary be able to acquire that quickly enough before encountering the problem) and ii) that the non-responsive person or persons with whom the complainant is having problems with would be the person(s) that the complainant is having to deal with in such a forum. In short, knowledge is power and the complainant would have a de facto weakened position. Is there not another means by which a genuine complaint can be fairly and evenly addressed within Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 ( talk) 00:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the above advice. However, I am still unable to identify the relevant person to deal with over the issue of the subjectivity of administrators. Most of the disputes referred to on the dispute page are over material content and not over the subjectivity of administrators. Not only do the suggestions above seem to disadvantage the newbie but administrators can make their impact felt over any number of pages. Potentially one could sort out an issue on one page while the administrator(s) concerned proceeded to create the next of the many issues on yet another page while still receiving no peer assessment as to their fitness as an administrator. Am I to take it that Wikipedia has no system for dealing with this problem of the subjectivity of administrators? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 ( talk) 19:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their comments.
Struthious would use the word 'capability' rather than 'authority'. My understanding is that when the capability is given to administrators, authorisation or permission to use the capability is, de facto, granted at the same time. Administrators in turn authorise and grant capabilities. Adminstrators can limit an individual's freedom to edit, ie, both permission and capability are revoked at the same time.
Despite Struthious' assurances and comparisons, it would still seem to me that the newbie is disadvantaged by the processes mentioned above and the relevant administrator(s) allowed to continue their activity for a rather indefinite period, since the processes mentioned above seem focused on dealing with articles on an individual basis and seem to assume that all administrators who would take part would be unbiased in judgment.
Arnoutf remarks that, 'admins that unfairly treat many editors can get demoted'. I would be interested in knowing how that happens and how long it usually takes.
In the light of what I've managed to find out so far, the process for dealing with any administrator lacking would still seem a very arduous and time-consuming process. Not only that, but the information supplied so far would still not seem practical in relation to smaller Wikis, so I repeat: while this English language Wikipedia has quite a number of administrators, the administrators of another Wiki of smaller size may be dominated by a certain individual or individuals, perhaps all very biased to one another. In this latter case, who would the newbie have recourse to for assistance concerning the subjectivity or such administrators? It would seem silly to suggest that a newbie raises the question of proper judgment with any administrator(s) who have already ruled against him in some way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.152.71 ( talk) 18:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
There are arguments raging across the Wikipedia religious articles about the use of the word 'mythology' in connection with (living) religions. These arguments are detracting from good editing and causing ill-feeling between editors. I believe that the only way to resolve these arguments is if a 'once-and-for-all' policy be adopted.
Some of you may have encountered me in this very argument with respect to Noah's Ark. I will state for the benfit of others that I firmly believe we are wrong to describe any part of any living religion as a 'myth'.
I appreciate that many editors argue in favour of using the word because this is the word that is used in 'mainstream' literature. However, this ignores several important points:
Please see this recent CFD regarding whether Category:Creation myths should be renamed; the responses have been overwhelmingly in favor of retaining the titling of "myth" because that is the term scholars use, and there is no objective basis for distinguishing between the stories of religions still practiced and those that are no longer observed. "Myth" is a scholarly descriptive term, not an evaluative term. Eliminating its usage has been a recurring suggestion for years and one that has always been decided in the negative. Re: the statement that, "clearly if it is offensive to anyone it shouldn't be used in the encyclopedia" (emphasis added), this is a completely unworkable standard and not one that is in any sense observed on Wikipedia. To do so would make all content endlessly subject to special interest demands and heckler's vetoes. Postdlf ( talk) 19:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the exact purpose of this thread is. Is it a proposal to ban the use of the word myth from the encyclopedia with respect to 'living' religions? If so, then it doesn't seem like much more than a proposal to invent a new definition of the word myth, and then prescribe usage of it throughout the encyclopedia, in spite of what terminology reliable sources use. This is in direct conflict with WP:NPOV and likely WP:OR. Myth is clearly defined in an academic context, an extremely useful classification, and has near universal support in the relevant literature. I don't see why appeals to personal feelings on the matter or association fallacies (as in Til's example above) should influence policy ever, let alone in this case. Cheers, Ben ( talk) 21:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I am pleased to see that I have provoked a lively debate and that the debate has (so far at least) been civil. I notice that those in favour of the word still only have one argument: that this is the word used in 'scholarly' texts. None of these respondants have yet addressed the various counter-arguments I set out above. I should say that I do not think anyone disputes that the term has been used in scholarly works to describe some or all of the stories in various religions. However, perhaps my biggest concern is how far the use of the term is taken. I have few problems with describing the Creation story as 'myth'. As one moves forward in time in the Hebrew Bible the use of the word 'myth' becomes increasingly contentious. At what point do we stop using 'myth' and start using 'history'. A typical example can be found on the Christian mythology page, where the section on "Important examples" has a list that, in effect, includes every story in the Christian Bible. Can it be right that we call the story of Jesus a myth? Or the story of the Diaspora? I do not think there are any 'scholarly' sources that do so (excepting the works of some 'militant atheists')-- FimusTauri ( talk) 09:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Fimus, it looks to me like you're falling into a new trap. On top of your personal feelings being your motivation, it seems you're trying to argue along the lines of X is not described as a myth, therefore nothing should be. As Marcus Borg notes, David Strauss's claim that many of the gospel narratives are mythical in character, and that "myth" is not simply to be equated with "falsehood" — have become part of mainstream scholarship. I assure you that Strauss was no atheist, militant or otherwise. Neither is Borg, and mainstream scholarship is not some atheist conspiracy.
Fimus and Til, you may not like these facts, but Wikipedia is here to reflect the reliable sources on a topic, not to right what you feel are great wrongs, and so we present these mainstream views with due weight. This last point is important, since it seems you still haven't shaken your misunderstanding of NPOV, Til. If there are notable minority positions that hold a particular topic should not be classified as mythical, then that is to be presented in the relevant article. We do not, however, ignore or hide mainstream views in an attempt to give a minority viewpoint more weight than it is due. That is it. No banning of words, no new policies. Cheers, Ben ( talk) 13:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
But isn't wiki supposed to remain neutral? If we change policy because of a certain group we will be defering to that group. The only thing we should be concerned about is proper use of language. If it is the right word then I think we should use it. Plus if we cave to one group, we will be slaves to the public attitude. Skeletor 0 ( talk) 17:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC) Also we call it "greek mythology" not greek religion. Why? Because no one is arguing the point. 17:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeletor 0 ( talk • contribs)
They are saying that because some stories are described as myth, we can call most (or even all) religious stories as myth.
That sounds like a good idea however, I think it will be a very very delicate process to create those guidelines. Instead of nutting heads over what is or is not a myth, we will be butting heads over what parts of a story take a point of view or not. Skeletor 0 ( talk) 19:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I have now raised this issue as a RfC - Proposed change to policy on ambiguous words in religious articles-- FimusTauri ( talk) 09:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I've long been familiar with our no legal threats policy, but today I began to wonder: what about illegal threats? Earlier today, I ran across a murder threat made by an IP; I reported it to both the IP's owner (a school) and to local police, and the situation has been resolved. Still, I wonder — if making legal threats is grounds for blocking, what about making illegal threats? Should we give warnings, block immediately, not give any warning and just watch what the user is doing, something else? Although this specific situation is resolved, I'd appreciate advice anyway. Nyttend ( talk) 05:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually, there is strong consensus among experienced administrators - The Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm (which is shortcutted with WP:SUICIDE and WP:VIOLENCE ) is the best practice which has actually been consistently used by experienced administrators and the Wikimedia Foundation when threats of violence or suicide are made on-wiki.
Attempts to make it a policy, or to make something else a policy, failed miserably due to wider community disagreement. However, we do not need community agreement with the Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm essay to make it approved best practice. It is approved best practice, and is what people do. Please follow it, if you come across such threats. What Nyttend did was proper and correct under the circumstances. Georgewilliamherbert ( talk) 22:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that Template:COI is a flagrant violation of " Comment on content, not on the contributor". Either the lead of WP:NPA should be changed significantly, or Template:COI should be deleted. Or perhaps both should be changed somewhat. Template_talk:COI#Does_this_template_violate_WP:NPA.3F PSWG1920 ( talk) 18:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
If COI of a web author could be positive tested, this could be a useful template, sort of Really Knowldedgeable Guy Was Here. Unfortunately, history tells us that sometimes the knowledgeable guys are not what they tell the world... which makes the whole point pointless. The template should be used, ideally, only for properly evidenced COI cases (arbcom case level, or at least an absolutely noncontroversial checkuser level). Remember, once it's in it stays there until deletion or a nearly complete rewrite. NVO ( talk) 17:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
File talk:BH municipality location Istocno Sarajevo .png 92.241.138.145 ( talk) 00:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Would it be helpful or hurtful if brand-new pages and pages recently moved into article space, say, pages less than 6 hours old, were not indexed? I'm not sure how this could be done or even if it could be done, but supposing it could, is it a good idea or bad idea?
The goal is to deter search-engine vandalism. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 01:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
How about NOINDEX being set until the page is patrolled, and then it reamins for one hour in case it's CSDed?
I know I've said this before but this is a good reason to enable FlaggedRevs. Then it would be as simple as have to NOOINDEX'ing all pages which have no flagged rev. Pages which do have some flagged revs would display the last flagged rev by default and to anonymous users including the GoogleBot. — CharlotteWebb 16:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I have noticed this problem for some time now but I wished to have some form of solution before I brought it to the attention of the wiki communtiy at large. Unfortunatly, I have not found one thus I am openning the floor to suggestions by anyone. I have noticed the pages in the math and physics sections of wiki have become far too complex for the everyman to understand. I understand the desire to include the proper equations and theory behind the pricipals but most people do not come to wiki for equations like : They come for a basic overview understand or to find places where they can do more reaserch through our references. That is not to say that we shouldn't have the complexies of physics and math theories on the site. I just think that there should be a seperation or even a seperate page for it. Proposal: Each theory gets its own basic oerview page. From those pages there are links to more advanced pages that are for people with degrees in those areas. Skeletor 0 ( talk) 17:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
You make a good point. I know many people who use wiki for getting a basic idea of a topic but I agree now that's probably not the general use for topics like quantum mechanics and entanglement. I actually went back to one of the pages I thought was too complex and realized that I skimmed through the layman explanation by accident. However, I still think my idea has merit but perhaps as you suggested, it would do better on Wikiversity. Anyway thank you for the response. I have had people who will shut me down before they really understand what I am saying so it is really refreshing to have someone take the time to read what I said before responding. Thank you Skeletor 0 ( talk) 18:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This is an interesting question, and I think it implicates the general question of "What is an encyclopedia for?" I actually disagree with the heading that an encyclopedia is "For the everyman." An encyclopedia is designed to be a quick reference guide, or compendium of learning on a topic. I don't think it's realistic to think of an encyclopedia as a substitute for receiving an education in a topic. Quite frankly, I don't think that anybody is going to be looking up a complex math equation on Wikipedia unless they already have some interest in advanced math. I don't see the point in dumbing things down for the general reader when it's highly unlikely that a general reader would ever consult a page like this in the first place.
I think that if you look at classic encyclopedias, such as our well-beloved 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, you would see that its content was often fairly technical, at least to the point where it required a person to be generally educated in a subject in order to understand what's going on. A couple examples: the 1911 article on Condensation of Gases, Geometrical Continuity, or Calculus of Differences.
The fact of the matter is that in any field of knowledge, as you move from a general overview towards the specifics, the content of the articles is going to be more and more difficult for non-specialists to ascertain. I don't find that problematic because, as I said, an encyclopedia is a reference guide of learning and a compendium of knowledge, not a substitution for an education.
Adam_sk ( talk) 06:27, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to suggest that Wikipedia:Libel has been slightly superseeded by BLP and should be redirected to that as a result. Has the benifit of reduceing the total number of policies. Geni 03:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed a few people who have modified their twinkle or other script related tools so as that they will be counted as regular edits and not script edits. Is this against Wikipedia policy? Smallman12q ( talk) 01:53, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
People are responsible for their edits regardless of if they use a script, so I don't think it matters. Chillum 05:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
see Wikipedia_talk:Copyrights#shorten_the_page. Geni 22:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The more I observe discussion about/based on policies, guidelines, essays and various other bits of documentation that serve a similar purpose, the more I get the feeling that trying to maintain a distinction between these various classes of page, without even any clear procedure for deciding which is which and why, is just a cause of endless trouble. We should simply have a set of pages - it could even be merged into the Help namespace - which give editors advice about how to behave in a manner that is approved by the community. Good advice should be included; bad advice should be excluded; simple as that. Disputes about what goes in should be resolved cleanly with an AfD-like process (less the bureaucracy). Proposal pages can appear in the WP space for a time, but if they don't get consensus they should be deleted or moved to user space (or marked as failed, but not allowed to live forever as essays). What do we think?-- Kotniski ( talk) 09:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I've been thinking about this for a little while, and here's what I would do. Policies should be limited in number, consisting of WP:3RR and its exemptions (i.e. WP:Vandalism, WP:BLP, WP:COPYVIO, etc.) That would be a far more operative definition of a policy - something which can be immediately enforced (by anyone) without the enforcer risking sanctions, provided what is being removed is a clear-cut violation of one of those policies. That would also likely mean that WP:IAR did not apply to policies, which it currently does.
All the other policies, including NPOV, V, and OR would be demoted to guidelines. What are currently the main content policies seem more like goals. Attempts to rigorously enforce them by summarily removing from an article all material which violates said policies will often be seen as disruptive. In practice, then, they are not policies. PSWG1920 ( talk) 17:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
One policy promotion track: User essay, essay, guideline, policy. User writes an essay. A couple of others say "that's cool" and he moves it to Wikipedia: space. He links to it in the "see also" line of a few guidelines. It starts getting cited in edit summaries. Someone decides to rewrite the text in the form of a guideline. After much use, someone proposes promoting it to a guideline, and everyone says "I thought it was a guideline already" in the discussion. After admins start blocking people for violating this guideline repeatedly, a few admins start treating it as policy. Someone objects at AN that they were blocked without warning for not following a guideline. After a discussion, the guideline gets promoted to policy. OK, things never really happen this way, but it's possible. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
For the "why not?" side of the debate, m:Instruction creep would appear to be relevant here. -- Kralizec! ( talk) 21:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't support this proposal; we've been evolving in the other direction for a while now. - Dan Dank55 ( push to talk) 23:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Maybe it would help to know where this is coming from. User:Kotniski is involved in a dispute over a guide that is being used as policy. The example that User:davidwr gives where users say "I thought it was a guideline already" is accurate in that it shows that much of it is based on perception and not the actual. The disputed guide WP:ICONDECORATION is being used as policy. Anyone can click on "What links here" and find many discussions where the guide is referred to as "policy," and the advocates for the guide don't bother to correct the misunderstanding. It suits the advocates for the guide just fine that it's seen as a badge of authority. It appears that Kotniski is looking for a distinction that is based on the actual distinctions and not the perceptions. I doubt there will ever be a concise distinction because perception makes a big difference when considering actual results.
But if I may offer another imperfect attempt at an actual distinction, much of it is based on the language used in the document. I'd say that an essay is an informative persuasion, a guide is suggestive advice, and a policy is authoritative commands. An example of the language in each:
This is not to say that policy doesn't contain persuasion and suggestions. A policy will most likely contain commands that don't require persuasion. But a guide shouldn't contain commands, especially without persuasion of why one should adhere and consensus that the command should be there. If an editor gets blocked because they didn't understand why a policy is making a command, it's not as serious as if an editor got blocked for not adhering to a command without persuasion that any newbie editor may have put in a guide with little or no consensus. Oicumayberight ( talk) 17:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
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Related to an earlier proposal here to change Wikipedia:Copyright, I am now proposing a revision of a section of the copyright FAQ. (Everything branches out. :)) The more recent proposal is at Wikipedia talk:FAQ/Copyright#Proposed alteration. The sort of ongoing conversation about WP:C is at Wikipedia talk:Copyrights#Derivative works. The primary purpose of the proposal is to clarify what it means "to read an encyclopedia article or other work, reformulate the concepts in your own words, and submit it to Wikipedia", since I have seen quite a few articles cross WP:C where contributors seemed to think a handy thesaurus is all it takes. I'd be grateful for feedback there on both the idea and the language, since neither of those talk pages is heavily monitored. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
There is a request for comment about whether or not WP:BOOSTER documents a standard consensus and good practice that all editors and school/college/university articles should follow as an official policy or guideline. Madcoverboy ( talk) 18:59, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I have started an RFC for a centralized discussion of the issue of linking units in articles. I arbitrarily chose the talk page of WP:MOSNUM, but I am also leaving notices on as many relevent talk pages as possible to attract centralized attention to this. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Centralized discussion for linking of units of measurement. Please carry on all further discussion at that location. Thanks. -- Jayron32. talk. contribs 21:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I understand religious affiliation has been removed from bios' on Canadian Prime Ministers. This may be a policy of wikipedia or just an anomoly. In any event removing information that is true should be never be a policy of wikipedia. Religion forms a persons philosophy of life as much as any other set of beliefs. They may not live the life their beliefs say they should which is even more of a reason for religious info to be available. What is the justification for removing this information? Wikipedia loses credibility if this type of action can be taken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.111.221 ( talk) 21:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
You might be interest in participating in an RFC about the same question concerning Adolf Hitler (no kidding). Turns out that he was formally a member of the Catholic Church all his life, but apparently several editors can't accept that. Please go to: Talk:Adolf Hitler#Hitler, nominally Catholic?. Zara1709 ( talk) 11:16, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Consensus having been reached on the core of the WP:Review Board (with the scope limited to auditing CU and OS use only), discussion should proceed to making this policy once the last details have been hammered out:
Wide community participation is encouraged on the talk page. — Coren (talk) 03:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there some kind of policy about oversight of spam fighters by someone other than other spam fighters? I wouldn't bother to bring this here except that I see this kind of problem being laid on many editors besides me.
I would like some second opinions from others concerning this:
I feel like I am being intimidated by some forum-shopping spam fighters into agreeing with them and a supporting admin. Another admin agreed with me.
It does not seem to be enough for these spam-fighters that I had said I was not wedded to adding a particular worthy external link.
I feel that they are out of control. So I promised never ever to add this particular worthy external link just so I don't feel pressured by the admin who wrote this: [1]
It is a mischaracterization of what I have been writing there, just like the frequent mischaracterization by the other spam-fighters there.
I have seen groups of many of these spam-fighters humiliate numerous other editors. That is why I am bringing it up here. They are out of control. I have been saying this a long time. See my user page for some past essays by me about this from long ago.
Also, look at the talk pages of some of these spam fighters, and follow some of the discussions back to who they are replying to. Note the frequent frustration of many editors dealing with these spam fighters.
Every now and then I bring this up, but it seems few people pay attention. Spam fighting is looked at as necessary dirty work, and they get a pass on many of the rules such as WP:BITE, and common courtesy.
So I try to avoid spam fighters, as many people do, but one particular spam fighter dragged me into a noticeboard with a lame accusation of edit warring.
This type of stuff causes many people to leave Wikipedia, and stop giving money or praise to it.
I see this kind of group-think intimidation sometimes on forums outside Wikipedia, but one would hope Wikipedia would try to do better. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 05:48, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) I have very little interest in getting embroiled in a debate about particulars, since as I pointed out, I consider only the general issue raised to be of interest. However, as one of the parties involved chose to respond on my user talk page instead of here, I thought I might quote them here:
"From my perspective, then, what's needed at this point is for Ronz to admit to perhaps having been a tad heavy-handed" I hope you're referring to the warnings on his web page. In hindsight, I should have started the edit-warring report immediately when he attacked me in response to the npa-2 template I left on his talk page. What would you have liked to have happened? -- Ronz ( talk) 16:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Although I think this merits little more than a [ sic], I find it somewhat depressing that Ronz apparently did not read, or chose to ignore, or lamentably failed to understand the very next sentence following the one they chose to quote. Nude Amazon ( talk) 17:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I noticed a few years back on the Deir Yassin Massacre article, some editors were strongly trying to change the title to "Battle of Deir Yassin." Words affect perception significantly, depending on whether 'attack' or 'battle' is used for example. One argument is it's a 'battle' if 'two sides are fighting'. So, if one party attacks and the second defends themselves, is the 'attack' then a 'battle' (or 'conflict')? How to deal with this issue? Cheers RomaC ( talk) 04:30, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
In the spirit of Wikipedian egalitaranism of all knowledge, it seems that calendar eras should be denoted with CE and BCE rather than with BC and AD. The WP article "Year" even notes that those are the more neutral designations. CE and BCE do not specify religious belief, yet still maintain the currently accepted calendar eras. BC and AD are Christian specific and should be used, at most, in articles dealing with Christianity.-- MysteryJG ( talk) 16:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The discussion on the implementation of a 'trial' configuration of FlaggedRevisions on en.wiki has now reached the 'straw poll' stage. All editors are invited to read the proposal and discussion and to participate in the straw poll. Happy‑ melon 17:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Can I get more input on this? According to User:Uncle G, I am not allowed to nominate an article for deletion unless I've gone to a major library and looked for print sources. Is this a reasonable expectation? Little Red Riding Hood talk 20:16, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
No one said you absolutely must do offline research in order to nominate an article for deletion. Uncle G is a famous deletion discussion participant, and has been for years, and he knows his shit. The reason offline research was key to this particular discussion is because the subject matter is less likely to have extensive online coverage. Searching for references requires a bit of a judgment call - if the subject of the article has been dead for half a thousand years (assuming he existed at all), it wouldn't be at all surprising for him to be both notable and not have much in the way of references available online. Avruch T 22:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
A concern was raised that the clause, "a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" conflicts with WP:NPOV by placing a higher duty of care with primary sourced claims than secondary or tertiary sourced claims. An RFC has been initiated to stimulate wider input on the issue. Professor marginalia ( talk) 05:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm open to adding policy pages to WP:Update. Personally, I try to focus on the pages that directly concern what goes into articles, but I'd be happy if anyone else wants to chart changes to any category of policies every month. I considered adding WP:Deletion policy and WP:Copyrights, but the stuff relevant to article content on those pages seems to be covered already by two of the content policies, WP:NOT and WP:Non-free content criteria. The next logical place to expand, it seems to me, is to keep track of the policy on how to discuss and change policy, namely WP:Policies and guidelines and WP:Consensus. I'd rather not add WP:Dispute resolution or the "crime and punishment" policies, in the spirit of WP:BEANS. I don't want to act unilaterally on this; can I get some suggestions? - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 15:08, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Wikipedia:Arbitration policy proposed updating was a drafting process for making much needed changes to the Wikipedia:Arbitration policy following last year's Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Arbitration_Committee and discussion on if we should vote to ratify some changes during the last elections. Unfortunately, it stalled some time during October when input and support for the process from the sitting Arbitration Committee seemed to cease. It is again unfortunate that the current Arbitration Committee are unable to provide any timeline or agenda for investigating enacting the changes requested from the community.
With that in mind, I'm restarting Wikipedia:Arbitration policy proposed updating, with a view to having a ratification vote on a new policy some time in Q3 2009. Generally, I think this will be an evolutionary process from the draft we have, with only minor changes now required to put forward a document that can be ratified as the new arbitration policy. -- Barberio ( talk) 22:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia have any policy regarding the detailed description of suicide methods? For instance, is there any policy preventing elaborate description of how to perform the method documented in the article Charcoal-burning suicide? I ask out of simple curiosity. 99.245.92.47 ( talk) 01:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I am looking for input for the page Wikipedia:If you could re-write the rules. I want a variety of opinions! — harej // be happy 05:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I was shocked when I came across Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict#Arabic interwiki + Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict/Archive 5#Link to the Arabic Wikipedia and where there were suggestions to remove an interlanguage wiki link because some contributors regard it as 'too POV'. I've been looking for any policy on interwiki links and couldn't find any. It's my understanding, current policy is we don't evaluate the content of another language article beyond determing it's about the same thing (which in this case it clearly is, POV or not). It seems to me this is a good thing, it would be disastarous for us to start to evaluate other language wikipedia articles to decide if they meet our standards. (I'm sure this problem is not unique to the Arabic wikipedia, I shudder to think what e.g. the Russian and Serbian encylopaedias are like with some articles.) Any prolems other wikipedias have need to be dealt with by the foundation or by contributors to said wikipedias, not by us arbitarily imposing crackdowns on articles on other wikipedias we don't like. Do we need to excplicitly spell this out or is leaving it as one of the many areas of unspoken policy enough? Nil Einne ( talk) 11:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
This came up recently on Joe the Plumber where the en.wikiquote entry was disputed. Cenarium (Talk) 03:14, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I would be opposed to removing interwiki links to articles that are otherwise apporpriate to link (i.e. they are on the same topic), even if the interwiki articles are POV. I think we should leave the links, but let editors of those other language wikis work on improving NPOV. Rather than delinking here, if you notice POV problems on another wp's article, tag it (or better yet, improve it if you can). Aleta Sing 18:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Several editors have decided that, since the city articles they are working on have no airports and are sometimes lacking other facilities like certain key turnpikes, sports arenas, etc. that it is mandatory to mention them in all articles of the city (and suburbs?) near which they are located. Sometimes this makes sense like an airport right near the city that is named after the city. At other times, no sense, as an airport hours away. There are no criteria for the entries, not even common sense and the editors refuse to document that people from their area use the facility at all.
Their contributions appear to me to be off WP:TOPIC since there are perfectly good metropolitan articles covering the subject quite adequately. All a city needs to do is to say that it is part of the metro and link to that article.
It also appears to me that the material is c-of-c boosterism: "My city is as good as your city!" And a bit WP:TRAVEL as well.
They have stopped trying to respond to my arguments and are now saying they "outvote" me and therefore no longer have to answer to Wikipolicy type arguments. I would appreciate help at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities#Airports...and_other_resources. Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 21:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
There is an ongoing Request for Comment at WT:Requested moves#Moving or renaming articles based on poll results. The aim of the RfC is to determine whether and to what extent a majority of editors can be seen to represent a consensus, in the context of page/article moves. Note that this is a policy and not a content issue/dispute. All considered opinions on the nature of consensus are welcome.-- Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 03:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Should Wikipedia be working towards meeting the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines? Please join discussion at Wikipedia talk:Accessibility#WCAG 2.0. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 08:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
If a site meets the requirements of WP:ELNO (that is, if it should NOT be linked to under this policy), can a consensus of editors decided to link to it anyway? The editors plan to say that the information on the site is faulty. Thanks. 80.126.66.106 ( talk) 12:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The article for the Pandora needs more citations, but much of the information pertaining to the device is posted by the head of the development team on the GP32X forums, under the names CraigIX (Craig Rothwell), MWeston (Michael Weston), and EvilDragon (Michael Mrozek).
Would citing a web forum be acceptable under these circumstances? If not, would stating on the official
Openpandora website that they post information on the forum under those usernames make posts from those usernames a reliable source?
atomicthumbs‽ (
talk) 17:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The manual of style gives guidance on Color coding, specifically that it shouldn't be done. I just rewrote the AutoRun article, originally using <pre> to show off code samples. It was then edited by another user to change the "pre"s to "source lang=". This changes black and white to various (garish) colours. I'm not going to start an edit war so is there a policy on code samples like this? Should colour coding be avoided in these cases? If so, why do have the ability to do "source lang=" sections.
I'll also add that the source tag does not produce a rendering that displays correctly in IE6 and other browsers. The dotted line ringfence breaks up and looks silly. I've used a transparent table to ringfence the source section which avoids the display issues. Thanks. Carveone ( talk) 19:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
In 1991 I gave the June29 dictionary organization http://www.june29.com/HLP/lang/pidgin.html)the free use of a list of English and Pidgin as spoken in Port Moresby. Since it was completed and sent to Jun29 after we returned to the States--my wife is a lawyer--it is copywrited. The only thing we asked is that our names always be an appendage to our intellectual work. It appears that our work was copied word for word in Wikipedia and some appendages of Wikipedia. I will not asked for the list be removed from Wikipedia if the heading of the list always contain the words, "Pidgin/English Dictionary as spoken in Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea. List compiled by Terry D. Barhorst and Sylvia O'Dell-Barhorst."
I hope I have to go no further than this e-mail. Terry D. Barhorst Sr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TerryTok ( talk • contribs) 03:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I am editing a Wiki. I am new to this but I'm on a start-page Wiki. I am going to do what was suggested on the page by the Wikipedia experts and discuss the film more. So obviously what I'm going to discuss has spoilers in it, how do I alert this to the readers? I obviously wouldn't say "SPOILER ALERT", but I've never really seen this being done here. Please help, thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProtectMeAura ( talk • contribs) 11:33, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.72.132 ( talk) 18:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
This page is an attempt to formalize stroke get down in writing some of our existing custom and etiquette regarding pages moves, particularly regarding WP:RM and its process. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 13:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
The current proposal for a notability guideline for fiction is nearing completion, and we'd like to get a final round of comments on it to make sure it fully reflects community consensus inasmuch as it exists on this issue. Any comments you can provide at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction) are much appreciated. Thanks. Phil Sandifer ( talk) 15:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Your opinion is sought on a proposal from ArbCom for handling future CheckUser and Oversight appointments. The proposal in full is here and all comments are welcomed. Carcharoth ( talk) 00:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
A discussion is underway at WT:Policies and guidelines about the principles governing changes to policy and the "disputing" of existing policy. Please contribute.-- Kotniski ( talk) 08:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm requesting additional input in an ongoing discussion at WP:MOSCAPS regarding the treatment of personal names with mixed capitalization, centering mostly on whether to move the article Danah Boyd. The latest suggestion to move Danah Boyd stems from what appeared to be a "stable" version of the MOSCAPS policy, but since that move proposal, the MOSCAPS policy itself has been changed and debated. Some new voices would be helpful. Thanks. -- ZimZalaBim talk 19:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Proposal (well, just a vague idea) to develop WP:Policy into a more robust constitution-type document, to make clear to everyone (newbies especially) the way things are done as regards the making and application of rules, but hopefully with the process of drawing up the document spawning proposals for improvements. Please comment there.-- Kotniski ( talk) 09:08, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello everybody.. I would like to ask a question about my account unification. I want my account (:bs:User:Kal-El) to be unified, but there already exists User:Kal-El on it and en wiki (as far as I know). I made my first edit on my home wiki (bs wiki) on May 16, 2005, while he (:it:User:Kal-El) made his first edit on June 11 2005 on his home wiki (it), so I am about one month in front. I would like to know do I have any adventage of getting my username on every wiki? If not, what should I do? I contacted him earlyer, but he said that he has no intention of making his account unified.. -- BiH ( talk) 11:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Over time there has been a great deal of discussion about trivia and how it affects the encyclopedia. Since the creation of Category:Articles with trivia sections and Template:Trivia (roughly 2 and a half years), the rate of new articles tagged with the template has slowed significantly, perhaps even by half, and newly tagged trivia sections are generally much smaller. Now that the wiki is becoming more mature, it feels like standards are bridging the gap between the inclusionist and deletionist divide. It also comes at this time that I think the usefulness of trivia sections is coming to a close, and discussion be made about the the encyclopedic relevance of some kinds of facts.
The general consensus that's floated around at Wikipedia:Trivia sections is that, if all other content rules are followed, lists of random information are accepted for the short term and used for later article development. So when trivia sections get discovered and tagged, their future is to have facts integrated into the rest of the article, or get deleted. And the existence of the section depends on the merit of the facts in the section.
Template:Trivia seems to be used to tag articles with a variety of lists. Most of the time it is used for sections titled Trivia, Facts, Notes and such, which are collections or facts not connected in any way. However, sometimes editors use it to tag sections that they think have a list of low importance facts (stats list, award nominations, long lists of Cultural References, ect), and other editors tag In popular culture sections with the trivia template. The difficulty with these sections has to do with both the kind of fact or trivia bullet, and it's importance to the article. More to the point, it's importance to an encyclopedic treatment of the subject.
There are two remaining issues here that I think need to be resolved. First, what is the threshold that makes one of these orphaned facts worth including? Does the length of an article make facts more likely to be included? In that newly discovered trivia section, what are some good things to remember when keeping and removing content, especially when trivia sections are usually unsourced?
The second related issue comes in with Cultural References and In popular Culture sections. Cultural References sections are usually found in articles like tv shows, books, movies and such when the article subject makes reference to another subject. In popular Culture sections are usually found in the same kinds of articles (plus places, people, ect), and they are lists of when another subject makes reference to the article subject. In both of these cases, the importance of the given fact comes into play, since there needs to be some measurement of when the reference to something really has encyclopedic value.
Certainly there are some subjects that are so culturally significant that and In Popular Culture sections is appropriate. But still, when it comes to improving one of these sections, the issue of when a fact is worth including is still in question. -- Nick Penguin( contribs) 04:44, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
See User:Uncle G/Cargo cult encyclopaedia article writing. Uncle G ( talk) 18:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed that a lot of the articles on civility rely upon disturbing images to make their point.
Do you think this is really conducive toward creating civility on Wikipedia? SharkD ( talk) 02:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Please note that the Arbitration Committee have announced that they have established a new central noticeboard, which will serve as a forum for arbitration-related announcements, notices, and other discussion. Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard for more details.
For the Arbitration Committee,
Ryan PostlethwaiteSee
the mess I've created or
let's have banter 12:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
In an attempt to centralize notability discussion among other things, I've been bold (After a brief discussion) and create a notability noticeboard. This noticeboard is for editors to discuss whether specific sources impart notability on a given subject. Editors are encouraged to use it and give feedback where they feel necessary.-- Crossmr ( talk) 09:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
In an attempt to centralize noticeboard creation...whatever, -- NE2 10:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I seem to have gotten into an edit war at Clovis High School (Clovis, California). Another user insists on inserting non-notable people who don't have articles and don't really pass WP:BIO into the article as lists of notables, and keeps removing my {{unsourced}} tag for those who do have articles. There's no proof that the notables went to the school, and repeatedly re-adding non-notables seems to be a sneaky way to get around WP:BIO. Why not create an article on Bands who play music and list every band that doesn't meet WP:MUSIC? AnyPerson ( talk) 23:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
There have been some very lengthy, extended arguments by several users asserting that
WP:PSTS should not be part of a core content policy, The basic assertion of these users, if I understand their thrust correctly, is that source typing should at most be a guideline that would interact with
WP:WEIGHT,
WP:NOTABILITY,
WP:NOR,
WP:V#Reliable_sources, and
WP:RS.
..... I've set up a little "straw poll" at
Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Proposed_removal_of_WP:PSTS_from_WP:NOR to try to preliminarily get either some kind of affirmation of consensus for WP:PSTS as part of WP:NOR, or alternately to get some preliminary sense of how widespread the current opposition might be to keeping WP:PSTS as policy. Please weigh in if this is an area of interest to you, because some of us have spent a great deal of time defending PSTS from various, often vociferous, complaints. In other words, it's very high maintenance, and if it's ultimately fated to fail as part of WP:NOR, it would be good to get some sense of what the community thinks about it so it can begin to be dealt with accordingly. If not, it would be good to know that too. Thanks. ...
Kenosis (
talk) 20:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
My edit too MOSICON [3] here has been disputed . Can you have a look and indicate if you agree with it Gnevin ( talk) 14:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Time to knock off 200 kilobytes or so. I'm afraid of screwing it up :( hydnjo talk 04:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
My question is: is there a Wikipedia policy requiring that the description or commentary for a link in an article to an external site be "non-controversial and verifiable"? If this is true, would you be kind enough to point me to the policy so I can read it myself? Thank you. 80.126.66.106 ( talk) 12:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
[http://www.example.com Article about bla bla bla]
rather than [http://example.com ARTICLE TITLE]
)."Laws are like sausages — the less you know about how they are made the more respect you have for them." --Attributed to Otto von Bismarck. |
Hello, I compiled a lot of data about the page Wikipedia:Television episodes which may have repercussions beyond that page, particularly about how we determine consensus as a community. I would welcome other editors opinion and critical judgment. Found here: Wikipedia_talk:Television_episodes#Laws_are_like_sausages Ikip ( talk) 13:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Laws are best fried with onions and peppers, and served with beer? Jehochman Talk 14:53, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia Naming Conventions became a policy around mid-2008 but other specific naming conventions which derive from it are still guidelines. Is it logical? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 14:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
There is a discussion about adding additional criteria relating to sale figures at Wikipedia talk:Notability (books)#Sales figures are not listed as a case for notability. Any third party input is welcomed. -- Farix ( Talk) 17:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
See the discussion at WT:FFD#Should files be eligible for PROD. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 20:13, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
This is my second try at getting a good dialogue going on this issue as there have been several contentious AfDs on this subject, and some users seem to be trying to institute an inclusion guideline that, at this time, does not exist. discussion is here and any and all remarks are welcome and appreciated. Beeblebrox ( talk) 21:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee has opened a Request for Comment regarding arbitration enforcement, including a review of general and discretionary sanctions. All editors are encouraged to comment and contribute. The Committee will close the RfC one month from its opening. After the closing, the Committee intends to formalize reform proposals within one month.
For the Committee,
Vassyana (
talk) 23:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does it seem like almost every article on a celebrity is protected from editing except by established users? Also, this extends to pretty much anything that generates a lot of views, such as big issues, etc. I understand it to an extent, but at the same time, I think it is pretty excessive. Protecting articles like George W. Bush and Barack Obama are no-brainers, but when almost every celebrity--even ones who haven't made headlines in a while--are protected from editing, it's too much. I know that sometimes all one needs to do is create an account to edit the article, but that is never worth it if the person just wants to correct grammar or punctuation.
Also, certain articles can only be edited by "established users." I was under the impression that protecting articles was a last resort, or at least temporary means of curbing vandalism to articles of high profile people, but when Kanye West's article has been protected since December of 2007 (along with various other articles), the protection seems permanent. I think article protection is used far too liberally, and I was wondering if I am alone on this, or if others share my sentiments.
Wikipediarul
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2221 21:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Just because there was a failure to reach consensus on a hard and fast policy of notability for schools, that doesn't mean that every school then becomes notable. Others are using the lack of a consensus to build a framework for every single school on earth to eventually have a wikipedia entry which then would become extremely hard to delete without adminstrative fiat. The lack of a specific policy has then created an opportunity for a whole class of articles for which wikipedia is not purposed (a Directory) and will be difficult to extricate. There needs to be a way to cull articles about schools which have no notability other than the fact they exist. Drvoke ( talk) 23:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Another issue to consider, especially with small private schools is that they don't always have websites that they can maintain. An article in Wikipedia may be one of the only "reliable" source of information about the school. Who is the principal? How many students does it have? What is its history? Does it have leanings of some kind? A person researching about schools may not want to ask these questions directly to the school. Also, how do you define a school as being notable? It seems very arbitrary. I vote for allowing schools to have a Wikipedia article. It is a benefit to the end user. Maybe just include a note at the top saying when the last time the data was verified and how it was verified. Zzmonty ( talk) 23:02, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
All schools in Lake Wobegon should be notable. All the students there are above average. David in DC ( talk) 03:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I'm wondering if there's a policy relevant to an edit war that it going on. A majority of editors, but not all involved, agree that content should be removed, but can't provide a reason other than they don't think it adds to the article. This seems extremely subjective, and I was wondering if there is a relevant policy. If necessary, see discussion. -- Elplatt ( talk) 13:56, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Hey all, I have a question - do we think twinkle can be used to revert other editors as long as an edit summary is used (It was originally used for reverting vandals but now can take edit summaries). I haven't seen this clarified elsewhere, but as it has edit summaries now, let's figure it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Casliber ( talk • contribs) 05:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure why we just skipped straight to polling... What exactly is the purpose of this poll? Is there already a rule that prohibits this? I don't think there is currently any rule that defines acceptable reverting techniques, are we going to create one just for this? Mr. Z-man 22:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I posted a question on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_contributors%27_help_page#Lists_of_examples and received the answer that there is no policy or guideline on the subject. I think there should be.
Proposed guideline: not to make section/subsections etc. with examples of... whatever the title of the article is. If any example is worth mentioning, that should be done inside the article itself. If appropriate one could make a separate article with a list of... whatever the title of the article is.
An appropriate template should be constructed to be put up in articles which violate this proposed guideline. Something like "Do not include lists of examples. The most worthy examples should be worked into the article. Consider making an article with a list." Debresser ( talk) 14:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
After an individual Good Article reassessment, I have decided the Culture article should be delisted. Following the GAR instructions, I have removed the article from the Good Articles list, but now meet a problem.... Instructions say remove a GA template from the article Talk:Culture page. That template is not there. Instead there are various Wikiproject templates which rate the quality as GA and the importance of the article. What do I do next?? Can I entirely remove the three project templates, or should I change the parameter from GA in their templates?-- AlotToLearn ( talk) 00:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there a policy that says that on the front page there should be a mention of Poland every other day, either in DYK or OTD? Personally, I'm tired of coming across this endless stream of Polish nationalism and self-celebrating bullshit. Can we get a moratorium? CAN WE GET A GODDAMN BREAK?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.91.52.73 ( talk) 02:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Greetings,
[[redlink]]
for its very useful instructive purposes. –
xeno (
talk) 21:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)Since Wikipedia talk:POINT doesn't get much activity, I thought I'd ask here. Observe what happened. For adding that, I was accused of violating that very guideline, which ironically illustrates the rationale for my addition. PSWG1920 ( talk) 17:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I recently ran across some edits by an editor who has apparently lost all patience with other users. I've never interacted with this editor myself - I am an "uninvolved third party". The actual content of his/her edits is fine, but almost always accompanied by very uncivil comments in edit history or Talk. Editor has been cautioned several times about this and responds with very uncivil remarks. Additionally, this editor's User page says explicitly (and un-civilly) that he/she flatly refuses to abide by
WP:CIVIL.
Considering that, as I say, the actual quality of this user's edits is unproblematical, should Wikipedia begin the warning/block/ban process against this altogether recalcitrant user or just ignore the incivility? --
201.37.230.43 (
talk) 04:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
See [5]. DuncanHill ( talk) 23:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
I can only hope and pray that this feature does not do to Wikipedia what I fear that it will. While my precognition is not 100%, I only forsee this as driving away potentially good editors because the encyclopedia anyone can edit will become "The encyclopedia only people we approve of can edit". This turn of events greatly saddens me. It will be a shame if the encyclopedia's growth is stunted because, in the name of stopping someone from inserting an occasional swear word into an article as a joke, we drive away all future new editors... I hope and pray this does not do what I envision it doing... -- Jayron32. talk. contribs 03:43, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I understood it was only going to be applied to BLPs to start with. Seems a good way to try this out on a limited scale - none of us will really be able to say whether it's a good or bad thing until we've sucked it and seen how it works in practice.-- Kotniski ( talk) 09:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
This isn't technically a policy proposal, but it is pretty close to one and I wanted to insure that all interested parties were given a chance to voice their opinion, so I'm posting a notice here as well as under the proposals section. Feel free to delete this if it doesn't belong.
Linkrot is a major problem on all major websites, and Wikipedia is not exception. WebCite.org is a free service that archives web pages on demand. I am proposing a bot (coded by me) that will automatically submit URLs recently added to Wikipedia to WebCite and then supplement the Wikipedia link. For full disclosure, this idea is not original to me but rather has been suggested by others in the past and most recently by Peregrine Fisher but never actually acted upon.
For full details and discussion, please visit: Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/WebCiteBOT
Thank you, ThaddeusB ( talk) 04:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Recently, I've been reverting the use of "class='navbox'" in the mainspace. Is that a good idea? A user really insists on using that on tables on the mainspace, and they're not even navboxes. – Howard the Duck 17:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
While all pictures and illustrations in articles seem to be kept at thumbnail size, it seems to this user that the leading, or head paragraph could and should be free to be larger than thumbnail. I see editors constantly reducing all pictures to thumbnail size wherever they find them. Is there a Wikipedia policy on this? JohnClarknew ( talk) 22:13, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
There are many many stub biographies of current and past holders of noble titles, many of them being quite obscure. I guess there is already a policy that all noblemen are inherently notable, thus safe from deletion, no matter how minor. This has left wikipedia rather "noble heavy," with stubs on countless people nobody ever heard of, or cares about. I propose that we draw a line in the sand, to wit, that while historical noblemen of english or european peoples can remain notable, the nobility of non-european peoples be subject to standard "notablity" guidelines, e.g., they have had to have accomplished something notable themselves, rather than simply "deserving" an article simply because they were the 18th duke of some obscure region of Mongolia nobody ever heard of. Your thoughts please. Pepe Machao ( talk) 02:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Instead of just having Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion (AfD's) is having Wikipedia:Articles for Userfication (AfU's) also.
This is being discussed here: PLEASE COMMENT HERE: Wikipedia talk:Articles_for_deletion travb ( talk) 11:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
In various aircraft crash articles, editor Anynobody has created many illustrations of aircraft as he imagines they appeared soon before crashing. ( His page on the Commons contains these images with links to their Wikipedia articles on en.)
I believe strongly these images are WP:OR and are not allowed for the illustration of Wikipedia articles. They are imaginings of an editor. Images like the illustration to the right are particularly offensive because so much is unprovable speculation. Were the aircraft in those exact positions? What about their exact attitudes? Were there birds in the sky? Was there a cloud right near the aircraft as depicted? What about the contrails? Similarly, File:Dc10erebus.png is a guess about how a volcano might have appeared to the snowblind pilots. Nobody knows if this is what the scene looked like, or will ever know. I appreciate that it has taken a lot of time and work, presumably, to create these illustrations, but they are clearly OR and need to be removed. Tempshill ( talk) 21:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
WP:NOMORE is aimed to suggest a way for reducing the instruction creep. 212.200.241.72 ( talk) 14:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
There are currently 52 policies and there is not a single page with the list of ALL guidelines. There are 74 guidelines without Style (about 100) and Naming conventions (about 60). How many of those did receive a broad community input?
For example, why is WP:SCG needed when there is WP:CS. If you look at the discussion page history and archives, you will see that it really didn't receive a broad community input. I am sure this is also true for many other guidelines, and maybe even some policies. 212.200.241.72 ( talk) 00:24, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
So AKA's site got hammered ?!? :( I will have to use the script some other day. 212.200.241.72 ( talk) 17:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Statistics report is complete. Feedbacks welcome!
212.200.241.72 (
talk) 01:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree there is a problem. I am going to use the example of Wikipedia:Television_episodes. In the request for comment, an almost 2 to 1 majority of editors were opposed to the guideline. (See Wikipedia_talk:Television_episodes#2). But it became a guideline because the editors supporting the guideline wrote much more than the majority. This guideline then continued to be guideline, despite attempts to demote and question the guideline. A small group of like minded editors refused to allow tags questioning the guideline ({{ Disputedtag}}) on the page for over a year and a half, and continue to do so today Wikipedia_talk:Television_episodes#1.
Based on my findings, the solution to rule creep would be:
The bottom line is that veteran editors are the editors who created these guidelines and they will be loath to change them. The current ways that content rules are created and enforced rewards veteran "elite" editors. Ikip ( talk) 10:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
It would improve the relevance of articles if each paragraph could be rated, once a paragraph had received enough votes ( more than 10% of all visitors in 7 days, over a period of however long it takes), then that paragraph is marked as robust and relevant. This means edits to this paragraph have to be approved or you have to type your name and email against any new edits.
It's often the case that edits contain irrelevant info or someones feels the need to raise an issue that doesn't really need raising. I just feel that a social tool, such as this would be really useful at keeping a communities eye on the content and keeping things in line.
Thanks for considering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.193.194 ( talk) 23:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
<< well at the moment any individual can do this, where as with this new system a group of people who read and have interest in the article can do this.
As a new editor, I was recently told here at the Village Pump that, if I'm going to delete content, I have to discuss it on the discussion page of the relevant article first. So I did that. I consistently made entries on the discussion page of the Illegal immigration in the United States article as, over the span of several weeks, I checked the sources to make sure they were relevant and accurately represented. I worked with the community to fix the problems I found. Now a new editor has reverted all that work - his edit summary states, "rv to last npov version.". I reverted his revert, stating in my edit summary, "take it to the talk page-I've been very careful to discuss the reasons for all these edits with the community". He reverted my revert stating, "Discussion does mean consensus, and consensus cannot violate npov. Maybe you should talk it to talk and get some AGREEMENT first" - but, note, he hasn't posted anything in the talk page. So how do I avoid an edit war with someone who won't read or post to the talk page?- 65.189.247.6 ( talk) 03:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Here's what I'm thinking. Instead of a blanket policy like the one Jimbo suggested, where each new edit by a new or unnamed user would have to be approved before it could be a part of the official article, why not simply eliminate the anonymous user bit and make everyone sign...and explain...their work?
What I had in mind is this: whenever someone wants to use the "edit" feature, fields would appear on the screen asking for their name, and an explanation of why the edit is being made. These would be mandatory fields; leaving either one blank would cause an automatic rejection of the edit.
My feeling is that if you're editing something like Wikipedia, and you're doing it because your knowledge of the subject allows you to correct a factual error or some such, you shouldn't mind signing your real name to it or explaining why you feel it's necessary. The use of the real name (perhaps with accompanying valid e-mail address) would allow Wikipedia monitors to contact anyone who they feel is abusing the privilege and get after them...and the explanation of the edit allows the site's moderators to research and validate for accuracy. And it would also serve to weed out the vandals, by making it harder for them to hide or to hit and run as they tend to do.
I think this approach would accomplish what Jim wants to do, without having to bog down every new edit with a day or more delay...and without having to completely bog down the site's already-hard-working staff by having to make them review every new edit one at a time, in depth. Granted, having the explanation field would still require a little bit of review on someone's part, but I'm thinking that it wouldn't be as intense a review, because the explanation would sort of have to cover your source for knowing the edit is necessary...and that narrows down where the moderators would have to go to verify it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.170.11.126 ( talk) 23:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
The whole situation with flagged revisions seems to divide opinions on BLPs. So why don't we do away with the four-day rule for editing semi-protected accounts, and have an "opt-in" system.
In short, non-BLP articles would work as near as makes no difference the same as at present (simply say that accounts created after semi-protection cannot edit that semi-protected article). All BLPs would be flagged revisions for anons and "untested" users (feel free to suggest a more diplomatic term). Current adminstrators and rollbackers would automatically be flagged as able to edit, and have the ability to flag a user who is deemed to be trustworthy. Short term it could cause a headache, so there's a simple solution- don't introduce it immediately, have a period of time for good users to get themselves flagged. After the initial surge flagging wouldn't be a big job, as in 90% of cases rollbackers could clearly see that someone was making positive contributions, meaning a dedicated page for requesting the flag shouldn't be too time-intensive. This approach would mean that flagged revisions would be almost exclusively IP's (new editors worth their salt would presumably get the flag quite quickly). In turn, IP edits should appear on wikipedia faster, as the rollbackers aren't wasting their time with editors who will almost certainly not cause a problem. Non BLPs would still work in the same way they always have, and the BLP contributions will still get there, albeit a little later.
I recognise the fundamental concern in that paragraph... "almost certainly". My answer to this is simple. Wikipedia cannot "certainly" stop all vandalism and simultaneously be an up to date, credible encyclopaedia that anyone can edit. A good legal system will almost certainly stop me killing the first person I see on the street, while at the same time not overly restricting my civil liberties. BeL1EveR ( talk) 00:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm moving for the repealing of criterion for speedy deletion T1. I invite your opinions and discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Removal_of_T1_redux. Dcoetzee 03:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I propose we scrap non-admin closures for deletion debates. They are causing more problems then good. The non-admin closing the deletion isn't always following the guidelines for non-admin closures and it isn't always a clear cut case in which (s)he is dealing with. Also most of the time the non-admin doesn't declare that its a non-admin closure so the people participating in the debate think the debate was closed by an admin. As an alternative, we could !elect a group of people (similar to mediators) that close deletion debates. Thoughts? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 02:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I myself am a non-admin and I have WP:NACd several AfD debates, I only SNOW when its 100% keep (with a good amount of solid votes) after one day or more and normal NAC when there is generally only one deletion argument and it is weak compared to the keep arguments (which should be ~85% or more of the total votes). WP:NAC doesn't mention mentioning that your a non-admin when closing, although the closing script I now use does automagically put in that it is a NAC. I don't believe that I have made any serious mistakes (if any) and have never been reverted by an admin. Why should the good little NAC boys and girls not be allowed to close AfD debates? It saves time for admins, and when done right has a net positive to the project. Why can't we just crack down on those who are being naughty, for example, by stripping them of their NAC powers? Foxy Loxy Pounce! 08:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Also most of the time the non-admin doesn't declare that its a non-admin closure Can you provide some evidence that this statement is true? Otherwise I feel I need to mark it with a {{ cn}} tag. Ruslik ( talk) 13:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
user:Ruslik0 asked about examples where the non-admin doesn't mark the closure of the afd as a non-admin closure, here are some examples:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/André Dallaire
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison of United States presidential candidates, 2008
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Geoffrey_Eggleston
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Renzo_Gracie_Legacy
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Graphical Identification and Authentication
There are probably a lot more. Another concern I have is that since the non-admin doesn't have the abilities to delete an article, they're closure is biased towards Keeping the article. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 16:24, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
If non-admins can make closures to deletion debates, these closures should not be immune to Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle so any editor who feels that the closure was improper can revert the closure without having to sent it to WP:DRV. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Monthly updates of content and enforcement policy continue at WP:Update. I did the January updates a little early; if the advance notice is helpful, and if people use it to fix things that have "gone wrong" (and what that means is up to you guys), then I'll keep doing updates twice a month.
This is going to come as no shock at all, but most undiscussed edits to content and policy pages that significantly change the meaning are not good changes, because they reflect one person's view rather than the grudging compromises worked out by hundreds of people. This is true even when the edits are pretty intelligent and done in good faith; that's not enough to get it right, you also have to read the archives and invite discussion to have much of a chance of not stepping on someone's toes. I've decided there really isn't anything I can do about this; if I'm heavy-handed, then people won't trust me to do the updates. All I can do is sit back and see if problems get fixed; if things get worse rather than better over several months, then I'll come back to VPP, and we'll decide if there's consensus that things have gotten worse, and figure out what to do about that. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 13:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
A new version of Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction) has been proposed. Please comment on the talk page. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) ( contribs) 00:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I dont see why there is all this fuss. Why not simply fork the data and leave wikipedia to stagnate and die under a mountain of extra work that will come about from closing the edits to the general populace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.76.247 ( talk) 10:12, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
At the moment the Wikipedia:Editing policy seems to be a little overlooked and that it contains sections that give advice that is contrary to the advise in some of the three content policies ( WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:V)
So that there can be no confusion, between policies, I have proposed on the talk page of the "Editing policy" that it be demoted to a guideline, because AFAICT it does not cover any areas which are not already covered by other policies and guidelines so there is no need for it to remain a policy.
Even if the current problems are fixed, it will have to be kept up to date with the content policies, which means that if it remains a policy it will always be in danger of giving contrary advise to that of the main content policies. If it is a guideline then this is not such a problem because "Policies and guidelines express standards that have community consensus. Policies are considered a standard that all editors should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature." ( WP:policies and guidelines)
So that all the conversation is centralised please make any comments on this suggestion at Wikipedia talk:Editing policy#Demote to a guideline -- PBS ( talk) 11:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
an active proposal that sais Wikipedia should be a mainstream encyclopedia. Comments? 212.200.243.116 ( talk) 13:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
In a recent dispute with another user, it was noticed that this user had changed some of Wikipedia's guidelines to support this user's argument. I believe that the guideline articles are different to an average article in Wikipedia. They are our rule book, perhaps even our constitution, and they have already been refined to a high standard. Like all constitutions, I think a more elaborate process is needed to change them. I am concerned that someone could slip in an innocent looking change with unforeseen repercussions without a serious review having taken place. Even if this change were reversed a few hours or days later, in the meantime someone else might have been forced to concede a change to an article which would not have been justifiable before guidelines had been amended. I therefore propose that any change should be justified in advance with several examples to illustrate the current problem and why the proposed change would solve it. Since the guidelines are important, I would also like to suggest that a longer period must elapse than for, say, a article for deletion. Please accept my apologies if this is a perennial suggestion. JMcC ( talk) 12:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Wiki's are community driven websites, and it is for this reason that I think moderation should be a task for the community. Wikipedia should develop functionality that is similar to the Flagged Revision, but improves upon some of its shortcomings.
I propose:
There should be three criteria in order for modification to be committed/published:
Here is a break down of the system using the settings used in the examples above.
Since all users of Wikipedia are involved, there is no bottleneck of modification for "trusted" users to review and moderation becomes a task for all users, even anonymous ones. In addition, new contributions are instantly made visible to readers through the notification system while still leaving them obscure from the main content in order to deter vandalism. This system will encourage users to get involved by reviewing modifications, even if they don't currently feel comfortable contributing their own edits. Also, the review process will help all editors become familiar with Wikipedia's standards and will improve the quality of their own contributions.
Pbarnes ( talk) 04:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
"You can edit this page right now" is a core guiding check on everything that we do. We must respect this principle as sacred.
Ibuki (satellite), which recently launched, lacks a photo. JAXA, Japan's space exploration agency, holds the copyrights for numerous photos on their website. Their Terms of Use page (in English) makes it sound to me like they are giving permission for anyone to use the photos for educational purposes (see section 2(1)) under a license similar to CC-by-nc-nd, except that (a) it's educational, not noncommercial; (b) they reserve the right to change their Terms of Use at any time; and (c) there are a few miscellaneous odd prohibitions, like, the user isn't permitted to use the photos for "Acts which are conducted for the purpose of or in a manner offending public order and morals".
Long story short: I think there's a good argument for allowing JAXA images on Wikipedia and would like to know where to post about this, and if others agree, then adding a JAXA tag for photo uploads. Thanks - Tempshill ( talk) 06:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Especially when discussing cultural references in popular media, I find lots of useful information is deleted by editors complaining of a lack of citations. This tends to end with the article consisting entirely of a re-iteration of the plot (e.g. various South Park episodes). Most of these are along the lines of "this scene is the same as that scene in a different work", or "this character also appears in that work". These can be verified by simply looking at the two works in question. In many cases it would be difficult to find an acceptable source that explicitly points this out. Should every example of this have an in-line citation for both works, left alone as obviously using the named primary sources, or deleted pending a secondary source? As a corollary, statements such as "in this episode this happens" shouldn't need in-line citations. Discuss. – OrangeDog ( talk • edits) 23:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) In regards to trivia, cultural references and fan cruft-if something isn't notable and relevant enough to be mentioned by reliable sources that can be verified, is it really something worth being in an encyclopedia article? I mean if no one else in the world thought that such and such reference, parody or what not was important enough to write about in an independent reliable source, then why should Wikipedia be the first? That seems like cut & dry WP:OR. If a cultural reference is truly notable, someone else will be talking about it that we can attribute a verifiable reliable source to. Agne Cheese/ Wine 03:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) This shouldn't be an argument about trivia sections (I agree that they're a bad thing). This is about whether synthesis verifiable by anyone who has seen both sources, but non-obvious to someone unfamiliar with one of them, should be included, even if a reliable secondary source cannot be found. Assuming both sources are notable.– OrangeDog ( talk • edits) 19:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Is it at all feasible for the Wikimedia Foundation to purchase online news subscriptions for the purpose of referencing? It would be nice to be able to use articles like this one for references. Grand master ka 20:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I just posted a very similar comment to this on another site, so apologies if anyone has already seen it.
Vandalism is a problem and no site is immune from it. Wikipedia has managed to form a good reputation for itself, in spite of these recurrent episodes.
The problem extends far beyond Wiki. Dedicated vandals and spreaders of misinformation can even infiltrate organisations as tightly controlled as mainstream news publications and government broadcasters.
Can a system of Flagged Revisions really deter the dedicated vandal? And could it create a new type of problem, in creating misplaced trust in content that is still prone to manipulation.
I believe a system of 'Flagged Revisions' could falsely validate content by improving user confidence in Wikipedia while failing to deter the devoted vandal.
A system of 'Flagged Revisions' could also shut out genuine contributions from knowledgeable users who spend less time on Wikipedia. This could mean content would be driven by Wikipedians who spend a lot of time on the project. Wikipedians who spend a lot of time on the project, while very experienced in using Wiki tools, perhaps spend less time gathering information or gleaning new article ideas outside Wikipedia. A system of 'Flagged Revisions' could exclude valuable material created by people with expertise in other areas.
Wikipedia entries have been created by many, many, unknown contributors and volunteers. 'Flagged Revisions' will be approved by one of these characters, or another, and will have, in my opinion, no more validity than an instant edit does now. It is hardly as if Wiki content is currently created by a small team of known editors who can be held to account. If Wiki does reduce content by limiting user activity and forming an editorial team, in order to monitor content and approvals, what is there to distinguish Wikipedia from any other encyclopaedia?
In Summary:
Perhaps, Wikipedia could choose proven well edited entries and make a special more encyclopaedic edition from those. Instead of flagging all new or anonymous user Wiki revisions, Wikipedia could encourage accuracy by rewarding quality entries with inclusion in a protected 'feature' encyclopedia. Wikipedia proper could be retained as it is, as a sort of catchment area for articles in development. Instead of clamping down on all content, dedicated users could choose from the overall pool and elevate well researched examples to a more 'protected' status (while retaining working copies of these that can still be commonly edited).
Perhaps these well researched and exquisitely written 'protected' entries could become a benchmark for all contributors to aspire to. These entries could even be published, in a print edition, generating revenue to hire the team of staff that would be required to edit an encyclopaedia to this calibre. The publication could have a special name, and be distinct from Wikipedia which would retain all of the vibrancy that it has today - with its vigorous community dedicated to unbiased truthful content, accessibility and freedom of content creation.
A print edition of well written and researched pieces could also serve to attract more knowledgeable contributors to Wikipedia, and raise Wikipedia's profile amoung non-Wikipedians.
Because most Wiki content is generated by volunteers, totally for free, a print edition should steer towards being accessible in cost and not-for-profit. Aside from covering the cost of production, I believe that a sizable percentage of any profit should go to a worthy and charitable cause. Perhaps profit could help supply laptops to underprivileged children, or fund independent journalistic projects, or offset carbon emissions.
Key Solution Points:
Tim Foyle ( talk) 10:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the reliability of Wikipedia, we should consider a concept similar to releasing software. In that realm, "release candidates" are cut, and revised within narrower constraints until there's a consensus that it's releasable. To this goal, Wiki could introduce the concept of "editions" being cut somewhat infrequently (monthly, quarterly, annually) and refined to remove inconsistencies, errors, but having greater editorial control (for instance, concurrence of others to make changes). The public would continue to have the present "cutting edge" edition available as always, but for the purposes of "peer-reviewed" reliability which some might require, the more closely edited "release candidates" should gain greater acceptance. This could solve not only the problems of knee-jerk updates about famous people, but also allow the Edition to be vetted for internal consistency (broken links detected, removed).
For practical viewing purposes, a person viewing an article might first see the latest (as now), but also links on the left pointing to the last several "reviewed" editions of the article. In particular, this would be a way to test-drive peer-review policies without removing the "edit at will" principle. In other words, (almost) anyone can edit at will, but these may not make it into a monthly/quarterly edition, both by the ordinary course of events (corrected) and by additional review.
An objection to this might be the scale of the endeavour: subjecting a monster like Wiki to a new edition very often could impossibly increase workload of contributors. To this end, it might be necessary to introduce the feature to particular "zones" (subject areas) such as "Mathematics", "US History", with the list extended to those subjects with a "sponsor" (someone "credible" with the bandwidth to devote to editorship).
I'm particularly mindful of the need to have a frozen/settled set of consistent pages to properly cover a scientific area, especially something like an area I know well like advanced mathematics in which we not only have to have accurate pages, but complete pages where all the cross-references work.
Modus Vivendi ( talk) 05:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
One of the things that I have noticed during my time on Wikipedia, is that AfDs should run for 5 days, and should be closed when they get to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old (as per the deletion policy) but AfDs rarely actually reach that page.
Some recent stats for you:
Now I don't know about you guys, but to me, this is indicative of a system that does not work correctly. The whole point of AfD is the discussion should run for 5 days, unless the article meets speedy deletion criteria, or the votes are snow votes. Now I highly doubt that all of the deletions in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2009 January 25 are clear cut (in fact it's a basic certainty), so why are they all being closed early? With this I believe we have two options,
Opinions? Foxy Loxy Pounce! 10:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Say an IP registared to Ford Motor Company edits a page on one of there cars. Would that slightly be WP:Autobiography? -- Here Ford 18:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed all the word pronunciations on Wikipedia use IPA exclusively.
I've also noticed that I've never once been able to figure out how a word was pronounced by looking up its entry on Wikipedia. Ever.
Is there a reason that the English Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org) does not provide traditional (pre-IPA dictionary movement) English dictionary style pronunciation guides in addition to IPA? I can see the usefulness of IPA for entries that have foreign pronunciations, but the simple fact is requiring people to learn an entirely new alphabet to figure out the pronunciation of the word doesn't seem that useful.
I'm not saying that IPA isn't useful. I'm saying that it would make sense to put a slightly more useful pronunciation guide along side the IPA one when appropriate. I'm basing this on the assumption that a very, very small fraction of people that visit Wikipedia actually know how to read IPA pronunciations. I may be wrong, in fact, I may be one of only a small handful of people that read this that don't know IPA -- and in that case, well, apologies for my ignorance.
This: /meɪnˈjɛərz/ really doesn't tell me much of anything, and I suspect it doesn't tell much of anything to more than a handful of other people.
What was the rationale behind only providing pronunciations with IPA?
I'm talking about the English version because I read English, but the same applies to any of the other languages as well.
-- 24.190.217.35 ( talk) 14:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the initial writer that the "required" use of IPA creates a lot of problems. Only a tiny minority of English speakers (i.e., our target reading audience) have any understanding of IPA. Many browsers in current use do not support the character set unless specially loaded, rendering it impossible to read the IPA pronunciation even if one understands the "alphabet". The theory that it will aid non-native speakers of English is again dependent on the likelihood of their knowing that format; I work with a large number of well-educated non-native English speakers and not one had ever seen it (aside from a speech pathologist, who uses it in her work). Given that there are often multiple pronunciations of the same word, dependent upon regional dialect, the "one size fits all" premise of including a single IPA pronunciation isn't necessarily all that useful. (Compare the pronunciation of the word "drawer" in Boston, London, Winnipeg, and Sydney. They're all different.) Summary: I don't know anyone that an IPA pronunciation has helped, but many people whom it's confused or frustrated. Idealism is lovely, but not necessarily reader-friendly. Risker ( talk) 18:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, IPA's are a little more bitter than I care for---and definitely too hoppy.--- Balloonman PoppaBalloon CSD Survey Results 18:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC) EDIT: I was a little disappointed that only one person picked up on what I said (on my talk page)... everybody else responded to this erroneous.--- Balloonman PoppaBalloon CSD Survey Results 15:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
it would be an excellent addition to Wikipedia's toolkit to have a text-to-speech generator rendering IPA strings on demand. -- dab (𒁳) 20:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Wiktionary is. And over there not only do we use multiple pronunciation guides, we even have sound files of native speakers in different dialects speaking the words. (And we welcome the efforts of anyone who wants to add more of the same to the articles that don't yet have it.) See d:mush#English and d:clique#English for two randomly-selected examples. You want to find out how to pronounce a word? Look in a dictionary, not an encylopaedia. Uncle G ( talk) 05:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I've always said the IPA pronunciation was completely hopeless to anyone who'd normally be reading Wikipedia. Those should go away, and either be replaced by what you'd see in a dictionary or a link to a site like Wiktionary that handles it more comprehensively. Adding information that's of use to no one and confuses most people is just bad policy. DreamGuy ( talk) 15:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I support the use of IPA. It is not "completely hopeless" to have a standard way of explaining how a word is pronounced across the project. We have enough issues with not having standard techniques across articles without trying to jettison IPA. doktorb words deeds 11:02, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Statistically speaking, nobody understands IPA and nobody uses it. I agree with the original poster and I resent greatly that several persistent PhDs in linguistics have foisted this upon the community. Tempshill ( talk) 21:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Reasonsing for mandatory IPA is flawed
I strongly agree that the primary pronounciation guide should not be IPA, but something intuitive that an average reader can understand and use. Mainstream media doesn't use IPA for exactly this reason. Consider a current article on the BBC website on "How to pronounce Davos" [14]This is simple to understand as it is intuitive. There is nothing intuitive about IPA and thus it doesn't serve the key purpose of enabling the average reader to understand how a word should be pronounced. Savlonn ( talk) 01:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The technical justifications for using IPA are flawed as they put this criterion above the core principle of having an encylopedia that is easy for people to use. Savlonn ( talk) 01:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The use of prescriptive notation at the cost of readability has been addressed eslewhere within Wikipedia, with overwhelming results favouring readability over the use of obscure standards. This should be the case with IPA as well.-- Savlonn ( talk) 01:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The infobox is longer than the article and it makes whoever made the stub look like an absolute idiot. 99.50.50.41 ( talk) 23:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I like the lack of commercial ads, but you should have an ad of the week at the home page where you have all of the other facts of the day. It would not get in the way of wiki-users and would be a solid source of income to keep wikipedia flourishing. And by keeping the ad out of the way of most users, the purity of wikipedia would still be preserved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.22.99 ( talk) 15:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Isn't there a policy or guideline which looks down on tallying votes during a RfC? I swear I read it somewhere before. Ikip ( talk) 18:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is like a city with mostly good neighborhoods and a few bad ones. Certain topical categories (neighborhoods) attract vandals repeatedly, and, when vandalized, cause the most damage to site credibility and to the living people or organizations vandalized articles are about.
So: Rather than impose flagging globally, which creates increased workload for approvers (whoever they are), and a bottleneck that doesn't exist now, why not identify high-crime categories and make them, and ONLY them, flaggable? This would keep most of Wikipedia free of flagging delays.
How? Start with a META-REVIEW to inventory all of Wikipedia's high-vandalism areas, all the corners of the ontology where vandals tend to lurk. Senior editors can do this using their experience, help from the community and robot site crawlers. Once a vandalism prone category is identified, institute flagging on the entire category or on selected articles within it.
An example: Articles about politicians in-office might be a flaggable category. Wikipedia could cordone off the "political officeholder" branches in its ontology, or hand-select especially controversial / edited / discussed people within that branch. All revisions in those troublespots would be automatically flagged. Then the flagged revisions can crawled, sorted by topic onto an ontology sitemap. Editors and/or user-voters can review/rate those revisions for fairness and accuracy.
Who does the editing? Any registered true ID user can volunteer for access to review flagged revisions in categories they know about. To retain their status as trusted de-flaggers, these reviewers would have to review many articles, not just revise a few. Steady interaction with a broad diversity of articles is a pretty reliable indicator of impartiality. (Limited activity in only a few entries of one political party would not be.)
Think of this as a Tipping Point approach to a Wikipedia clean up, like the 42nd street clean up in New York City during the 90's, or crime rates going down after subway graffiti is eliminated. Clean up the right areas and everything improves.
I'm against a policy of demanding real identities from every visitor who wants to contribute. Why eliminate spontaneous, anonymous user-editing just to deter a few vandals? Anonymous sources are essential to societies. Deep Throat helped expose Watergate. Witness protection programs exist for a reason. We would never have seen the Abu Ghraib photo disc if the soldier who turned it in felt his identity would NOT be protected. Yes, masked anonymous bandits can do damage, but a targeted neighborhood clean-up solution, like this, would eliminate much of that without fundamentally changing Wikipedia's look, feel or function.
Wikipedia knowledge is made possible by a self-correcting social sieve that allows free errors and correction to be added in the majority of its entries by the majority of users. Just because a few users can't be trusted, doesn't mean most can't. Most can, in fact. And most neighborhoods are safe. Just find out where the bad apples lurk and put more cops on the street there.
Tim M., Woodstock, NY
WP:VER says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."
Today an editor made a change to Lucena Position, saying that the old moves were wrong. I checked and that is the truth. However, the moves he replaced are verifiable - they are in the source, the book by de la Villa. So what do we do in a case like this? Truth or verifiability? Bubba73 (talk), 17:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Removing it is an easy option. Just because something has sources, doesn't mean that it is worth keeping---especially if you know its wrong. The issue arises if you think it is wrong and somebody else says, "No, it's right and should remain in the article." In that case, they will have the advantage of having the sources while you only have OR.--- Balloonman PoppaBalloon CSD Survey Results 20:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Re. Mangoe: Is there a verifiability police?
Having an otherwise reliable source that has made an error (or a strongly suspected error), is not a good reason to to copy that error into Wikipedia. However, if you can't achieve consensus (on the article talk page) to delete the incorrect school, then there is not much you can o except write a brief footnote for readers. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 16:14, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
38 support - 27 oppose - 6 neutral. =71 total
27/ 71 = 0.38028169 % oppose 38/ 71 = 0.535211268% support
Is this enough to make it a guideline? Yes, I know there are other factors, including the comments of the editors, but as a general rule, based on past guideline rfc's is this enough? Ikip ( talk) 15:57, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
The plant editors have been hounded for going on three months now by a pair of editors (who also disagree strongly with each other and include their battles on policy/guidelines talk pages, too) about their disagreement with the naming conventions for flora articles, namely, that plant editors have established naming guidelines that scientific names should be used. They have strongly convinced me that the conventions should be changed and scientific names should be required for all organisms. I have started a talk at Wikipedia naming conventions and invite other concerned editors to weigh in. -- KP Botany ( talk) 21:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't want describe long.
referce www.cyworld.com/acdc9 diary movie board in Korean
Good luck! —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
Yes, civility is a policy, an official policy here, and it is supposed to be a widely accepted standard that should normally be followed by all editors. However, it is not.
No matter how much you are annoyed by someone, no matter how much someone bugs you, be civil. Because someone is in your eyes a jerk, that does not make it okay to bad mouth the person in talk pages, nor does it make it okay for you to engage in mean-spirited banter with others. Set a good example of behavior. Even when dealing with the worst of the worst, don't stoop to that level. Some threads out there mocking other people are really quite repulsive. Kingturtle ( talk) 06:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
If there are unanswered questions on the project talk pages, is there any central place where this can be highlighted, so that volunteers can help answer them?
For instance, there are two questions on Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy. Jay ( talk) 08:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Discussion is here 212.200.243.116 ( talk) 12:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
For anyone interested, I have proposed we decentralize the Arbitration Committee. Tim Q. Wells ( talk) 23:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I see that people contributing are quite prolific writers but I will keep this short.
What is special about Wikipedia. People can see their contributions as soon as they have finished editing. So preferably new entries must be immediately displayed but with some kind of clear indication that they have not been fully approved. This could take the form of color-coding. With this system all new entries would appear red for example, distinguishing them from the standard text. Readers therefore know very clearly which parts of the article they can trust and which they should be a bit more cautious about.
Problem solved without any radical and constraining use of flagging. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omarcoaa ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Two suggestions from joeytwiddle: What about a little red message at the top saying "Recent changes to this article have not yet been verified as accurate. You may wish to view the _last_confirmed_version_." ? Visitors to the site could also thumbup or thumbdown changes, so that vandalism could be automatically removed after enough thumbdowns.
I heartily concur - no serious instances of vandalism remain uncontested within the first 24 hrs, or 48 : text that appears red for the first 48 hrs of its existence, and then replaces the intended previous sections automatically provided no complaints have been received... automatic, transparent, and largely foolproof? much better than all the beauraucratic mucking about suggested above, with no-one sure which edition they're stuck in. [Breaking news like sudden deaths should anyway be left to the news desks, but if they're not, at least being coded in red would make things clear!] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.143.203.88 ( talk) 10:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
If this were to be implemented, I would suggest colour the text grey so it doesn't stand out so much, leaving the prominent black (reliable) text as what catches the readers eye--ClubOranje Talk 09:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Recent changes to this article have not yet been verified as accurate. You may wish to view the last reviewed version |
ViperSnake151 12:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
When a page is posted on Wikipedia it is picked up by (eg) Google very fast indeed. in general that is a great thing. In the case of an Attack page it is not. With an attack page this spreads the libel far faster than one could possibly imagine.
Is it technically possible to remove search engine's ability to spider such pages, even in the often short time they stay online here?
My thinking is that the speedy deletion template might contain a trigger to mark the page as "not to be spidered" in some technical manner that is recognised by all major search engines. This means that individuals flagging such pages and admins deleting them require no special knowledge.
Of course this may be done already. But, if it is not, might we form a consensus over it and then ask a knowledgeable person to implement it if the consensus is favourable, please? Fiddle Faddle ( talk) 13:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Does __NOINDEX__
work?--
Ipatrol (
talk) 04:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a request for comment open regarding A-Class assessments and reviews. All input is welcome. - Drilnoth ( talk) 22:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
What is the policy on tagging articles with stub, orphan, wikify etc? Where is it articulated?
I ask since I'm aware that Wikipedia:WikiProject Orphanage appears intent on tagging very many orphan articles with {{ orphan}}. I'm not at all keen on this, since I prefer to read my articles sans distracting tags. Neither do I think that such tags are a great way of solving a problem - not least since that project's policy seems to be that an article needs three incoming links before the tag is removed.
According to Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-01-31/Orphans there are just under 700,000 articles which would qualify for an Orphan tag. 45,000 are already tagged.
My main interest at the moment is in geotagging. Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates got flack in no uncertain terms when it tried to place a tiny tiny "needs geotagging" link in the top right of an article, in the place where a geo-coordinate goes. So the question for me: how did we get to the point where one project can (my view) despoil article by the hundred thousand, and another project not? Where did we give license to the orphan project to do as they seem to be proposing? -- Tagishsimon (talk) 04:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Please join the new discussion about the possible establishment of Guidelines for "China" vs. "PRC" usage on the People's Republic of China article -- Cybercobra ( talk) 06:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I'd like some help regarding Wikipedia's structure. I cannot locate the relevant person to deal with a problem I would like to raise. Who does one contact about the subjectivity of administrators? If administrators appear to have operated outwith their sphere of knowledge and therefore are making inappropriate editorial decisions which mean that information which has no factual basis is not presented as such and that factual information on the subject is being withheld from the public because it disagrees with the viewpoint of the administrators, is there anything that can be done about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 ( talk) 23:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC) (Moved from section above by Jeremy ( v^_^v Dittobori))
Thanks for your reply. However, I'm still trying to find out who would be the relevant person to deal with. For example, in certain parts of Wikipedia, particularly those of minority cultures, the number of administrators is not large and any weakness in their capacities as administrator is difficult to challenge within their own domain. The problem with a board like the one you suggest in that kind of situation is that it depends on the complainant having i) the requisite information and experience to pursue his complaint (a newbie wouldn't necessary be able to acquire that quickly enough before encountering the problem) and ii) that the non-responsive person or persons with whom the complainant is having problems with would be the person(s) that the complainant is having to deal with in such a forum. In short, knowledge is power and the complainant would have a de facto weakened position. Is there not another means by which a genuine complaint can be fairly and evenly addressed within Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 ( talk) 00:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the above advice. However, I am still unable to identify the relevant person to deal with over the issue of the subjectivity of administrators. Most of the disputes referred to on the dispute page are over material content and not over the subjectivity of administrators. Not only do the suggestions above seem to disadvantage the newbie but administrators can make their impact felt over any number of pages. Potentially one could sort out an issue on one page while the administrator(s) concerned proceeded to create the next of the many issues on yet another page while still receiving no peer assessment as to their fitness as an administrator. Am I to take it that Wikipedia has no system for dealing with this problem of the subjectivity of administrators? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.252.39 ( talk) 19:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their comments.
Struthious would use the word 'capability' rather than 'authority'. My understanding is that when the capability is given to administrators, authorisation or permission to use the capability is, de facto, granted at the same time. Administrators in turn authorise and grant capabilities. Adminstrators can limit an individual's freedom to edit, ie, both permission and capability are revoked at the same time.
Despite Struthious' assurances and comparisons, it would still seem to me that the newbie is disadvantaged by the processes mentioned above and the relevant administrator(s) allowed to continue their activity for a rather indefinite period, since the processes mentioned above seem focused on dealing with articles on an individual basis and seem to assume that all administrators who would take part would be unbiased in judgment.
Arnoutf remarks that, 'admins that unfairly treat many editors can get demoted'. I would be interested in knowing how that happens and how long it usually takes.
In the light of what I've managed to find out so far, the process for dealing with any administrator lacking would still seem a very arduous and time-consuming process. Not only that, but the information supplied so far would still not seem practical in relation to smaller Wikis, so I repeat: while this English language Wikipedia has quite a number of administrators, the administrators of another Wiki of smaller size may be dominated by a certain individual or individuals, perhaps all very biased to one another. In this latter case, who would the newbie have recourse to for assistance concerning the subjectivity or such administrators? It would seem silly to suggest that a newbie raises the question of proper judgment with any administrator(s) who have already ruled against him in some way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.152.71 ( talk) 18:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
There are arguments raging across the Wikipedia religious articles about the use of the word 'mythology' in connection with (living) religions. These arguments are detracting from good editing and causing ill-feeling between editors. I believe that the only way to resolve these arguments is if a 'once-and-for-all' policy be adopted.
Some of you may have encountered me in this very argument with respect to Noah's Ark. I will state for the benfit of others that I firmly believe we are wrong to describe any part of any living religion as a 'myth'.
I appreciate that many editors argue in favour of using the word because this is the word that is used in 'mainstream' literature. However, this ignores several important points:
Please see this recent CFD regarding whether Category:Creation myths should be renamed; the responses have been overwhelmingly in favor of retaining the titling of "myth" because that is the term scholars use, and there is no objective basis for distinguishing between the stories of religions still practiced and those that are no longer observed. "Myth" is a scholarly descriptive term, not an evaluative term. Eliminating its usage has been a recurring suggestion for years and one that has always been decided in the negative. Re: the statement that, "clearly if it is offensive to anyone it shouldn't be used in the encyclopedia" (emphasis added), this is a completely unworkable standard and not one that is in any sense observed on Wikipedia. To do so would make all content endlessly subject to special interest demands and heckler's vetoes. Postdlf ( talk) 19:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the exact purpose of this thread is. Is it a proposal to ban the use of the word myth from the encyclopedia with respect to 'living' religions? If so, then it doesn't seem like much more than a proposal to invent a new definition of the word myth, and then prescribe usage of it throughout the encyclopedia, in spite of what terminology reliable sources use. This is in direct conflict with WP:NPOV and likely WP:OR. Myth is clearly defined in an academic context, an extremely useful classification, and has near universal support in the relevant literature. I don't see why appeals to personal feelings on the matter or association fallacies (as in Til's example above) should influence policy ever, let alone in this case. Cheers, Ben ( talk) 21:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I am pleased to see that I have provoked a lively debate and that the debate has (so far at least) been civil. I notice that those in favour of the word still only have one argument: that this is the word used in 'scholarly' texts. None of these respondants have yet addressed the various counter-arguments I set out above. I should say that I do not think anyone disputes that the term has been used in scholarly works to describe some or all of the stories in various religions. However, perhaps my biggest concern is how far the use of the term is taken. I have few problems with describing the Creation story as 'myth'. As one moves forward in time in the Hebrew Bible the use of the word 'myth' becomes increasingly contentious. At what point do we stop using 'myth' and start using 'history'. A typical example can be found on the Christian mythology page, where the section on "Important examples" has a list that, in effect, includes every story in the Christian Bible. Can it be right that we call the story of Jesus a myth? Or the story of the Diaspora? I do not think there are any 'scholarly' sources that do so (excepting the works of some 'militant atheists')-- FimusTauri ( talk) 09:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Fimus, it looks to me like you're falling into a new trap. On top of your personal feelings being your motivation, it seems you're trying to argue along the lines of X is not described as a myth, therefore nothing should be. As Marcus Borg notes, David Strauss's claim that many of the gospel narratives are mythical in character, and that "myth" is not simply to be equated with "falsehood" — have become part of mainstream scholarship. I assure you that Strauss was no atheist, militant or otherwise. Neither is Borg, and mainstream scholarship is not some atheist conspiracy.
Fimus and Til, you may not like these facts, but Wikipedia is here to reflect the reliable sources on a topic, not to right what you feel are great wrongs, and so we present these mainstream views with due weight. This last point is important, since it seems you still haven't shaken your misunderstanding of NPOV, Til. If there are notable minority positions that hold a particular topic should not be classified as mythical, then that is to be presented in the relevant article. We do not, however, ignore or hide mainstream views in an attempt to give a minority viewpoint more weight than it is due. That is it. No banning of words, no new policies. Cheers, Ben ( talk) 13:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
But isn't wiki supposed to remain neutral? If we change policy because of a certain group we will be defering to that group. The only thing we should be concerned about is proper use of language. If it is the right word then I think we should use it. Plus if we cave to one group, we will be slaves to the public attitude. Skeletor 0 ( talk) 17:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC) Also we call it "greek mythology" not greek religion. Why? Because no one is arguing the point. 17:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeletor 0 ( talk • contribs)
They are saying that because some stories are described as myth, we can call most (or even all) religious stories as myth.
That sounds like a good idea however, I think it will be a very very delicate process to create those guidelines. Instead of nutting heads over what is or is not a myth, we will be butting heads over what parts of a story take a point of view or not. Skeletor 0 ( talk) 19:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I have now raised this issue as a RfC - Proposed change to policy on ambiguous words in religious articles-- FimusTauri ( talk) 09:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I've long been familiar with our no legal threats policy, but today I began to wonder: what about illegal threats? Earlier today, I ran across a murder threat made by an IP; I reported it to both the IP's owner (a school) and to local police, and the situation has been resolved. Still, I wonder — if making legal threats is grounds for blocking, what about making illegal threats? Should we give warnings, block immediately, not give any warning and just watch what the user is doing, something else? Although this specific situation is resolved, I'd appreciate advice anyway. Nyttend ( talk) 05:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually, there is strong consensus among experienced administrators - The Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm (which is shortcutted with WP:SUICIDE and WP:VIOLENCE ) is the best practice which has actually been consistently used by experienced administrators and the Wikimedia Foundation when threats of violence or suicide are made on-wiki.
Attempts to make it a policy, or to make something else a policy, failed miserably due to wider community disagreement. However, we do not need community agreement with the Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm essay to make it approved best practice. It is approved best practice, and is what people do. Please follow it, if you come across such threats. What Nyttend did was proper and correct under the circumstances. Georgewilliamherbert ( talk) 22:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that Template:COI is a flagrant violation of " Comment on content, not on the contributor". Either the lead of WP:NPA should be changed significantly, or Template:COI should be deleted. Or perhaps both should be changed somewhat. Template_talk:COI#Does_this_template_violate_WP:NPA.3F PSWG1920 ( talk) 18:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
If COI of a web author could be positive tested, this could be a useful template, sort of Really Knowldedgeable Guy Was Here. Unfortunately, history tells us that sometimes the knowledgeable guys are not what they tell the world... which makes the whole point pointless. The template should be used, ideally, only for properly evidenced COI cases (arbcom case level, or at least an absolutely noncontroversial checkuser level). Remember, once it's in it stays there until deletion or a nearly complete rewrite. NVO ( talk) 17:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
File talk:BH municipality location Istocno Sarajevo .png 92.241.138.145 ( talk) 00:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Would it be helpful or hurtful if brand-new pages and pages recently moved into article space, say, pages less than 6 hours old, were not indexed? I'm not sure how this could be done or even if it could be done, but supposing it could, is it a good idea or bad idea?
The goal is to deter search-engine vandalism. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 01:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
How about NOINDEX being set until the page is patrolled, and then it reamins for one hour in case it's CSDed?
I know I've said this before but this is a good reason to enable FlaggedRevs. Then it would be as simple as have to NOOINDEX'ing all pages which have no flagged rev. Pages which do have some flagged revs would display the last flagged rev by default and to anonymous users including the GoogleBot. — CharlotteWebb 16:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I have noticed this problem for some time now but I wished to have some form of solution before I brought it to the attention of the wiki communtiy at large. Unfortunatly, I have not found one thus I am openning the floor to suggestions by anyone. I have noticed the pages in the math and physics sections of wiki have become far too complex for the everyman to understand. I understand the desire to include the proper equations and theory behind the pricipals but most people do not come to wiki for equations like : They come for a basic overview understand or to find places where they can do more reaserch through our references. That is not to say that we shouldn't have the complexies of physics and math theories on the site. I just think that there should be a seperation or even a seperate page for it. Proposal: Each theory gets its own basic oerview page. From those pages there are links to more advanced pages that are for people with degrees in those areas. Skeletor 0 ( talk) 17:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
You make a good point. I know many people who use wiki for getting a basic idea of a topic but I agree now that's probably not the general use for topics like quantum mechanics and entanglement. I actually went back to one of the pages I thought was too complex and realized that I skimmed through the layman explanation by accident. However, I still think my idea has merit but perhaps as you suggested, it would do better on Wikiversity. Anyway thank you for the response. I have had people who will shut me down before they really understand what I am saying so it is really refreshing to have someone take the time to read what I said before responding. Thank you Skeletor 0 ( talk) 18:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This is an interesting question, and I think it implicates the general question of "What is an encyclopedia for?" I actually disagree with the heading that an encyclopedia is "For the everyman." An encyclopedia is designed to be a quick reference guide, or compendium of learning on a topic. I don't think it's realistic to think of an encyclopedia as a substitute for receiving an education in a topic. Quite frankly, I don't think that anybody is going to be looking up a complex math equation on Wikipedia unless they already have some interest in advanced math. I don't see the point in dumbing things down for the general reader when it's highly unlikely that a general reader would ever consult a page like this in the first place.
I think that if you look at classic encyclopedias, such as our well-beloved 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, you would see that its content was often fairly technical, at least to the point where it required a person to be generally educated in a subject in order to understand what's going on. A couple examples: the 1911 article on Condensation of Gases, Geometrical Continuity, or Calculus of Differences.
The fact of the matter is that in any field of knowledge, as you move from a general overview towards the specifics, the content of the articles is going to be more and more difficult for non-specialists to ascertain. I don't find that problematic because, as I said, an encyclopedia is a reference guide of learning and a compendium of knowledge, not a substitution for an education.
Adam_sk ( talk) 06:27, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to suggest that Wikipedia:Libel has been slightly superseeded by BLP and should be redirected to that as a result. Has the benifit of reduceing the total number of policies. Geni 03:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed a few people who have modified their twinkle or other script related tools so as that they will be counted as regular edits and not script edits. Is this against Wikipedia policy? Smallman12q ( talk) 01:53, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
People are responsible for their edits regardless of if they use a script, so I don't think it matters. Chillum 05:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
see Wikipedia_talk:Copyrights#shorten_the_page. Geni 22:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The more I observe discussion about/based on policies, guidelines, essays and various other bits of documentation that serve a similar purpose, the more I get the feeling that trying to maintain a distinction between these various classes of page, without even any clear procedure for deciding which is which and why, is just a cause of endless trouble. We should simply have a set of pages - it could even be merged into the Help namespace - which give editors advice about how to behave in a manner that is approved by the community. Good advice should be included; bad advice should be excluded; simple as that. Disputes about what goes in should be resolved cleanly with an AfD-like process (less the bureaucracy). Proposal pages can appear in the WP space for a time, but if they don't get consensus they should be deleted or moved to user space (or marked as failed, but not allowed to live forever as essays). What do we think?-- Kotniski ( talk) 09:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I've been thinking about this for a little while, and here's what I would do. Policies should be limited in number, consisting of WP:3RR and its exemptions (i.e. WP:Vandalism, WP:BLP, WP:COPYVIO, etc.) That would be a far more operative definition of a policy - something which can be immediately enforced (by anyone) without the enforcer risking sanctions, provided what is being removed is a clear-cut violation of one of those policies. That would also likely mean that WP:IAR did not apply to policies, which it currently does.
All the other policies, including NPOV, V, and OR would be demoted to guidelines. What are currently the main content policies seem more like goals. Attempts to rigorously enforce them by summarily removing from an article all material which violates said policies will often be seen as disruptive. In practice, then, they are not policies. PSWG1920 ( talk) 17:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
One policy promotion track: User essay, essay, guideline, policy. User writes an essay. A couple of others say "that's cool" and he moves it to Wikipedia: space. He links to it in the "see also" line of a few guidelines. It starts getting cited in edit summaries. Someone decides to rewrite the text in the form of a guideline. After much use, someone proposes promoting it to a guideline, and everyone says "I thought it was a guideline already" in the discussion. After admins start blocking people for violating this guideline repeatedly, a few admins start treating it as policy. Someone objects at AN that they were blocked without warning for not following a guideline. After a discussion, the guideline gets promoted to policy. OK, things never really happen this way, but it's possible. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
For the "why not?" side of the debate, m:Instruction creep would appear to be relevant here. -- Kralizec! ( talk) 21:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't support this proposal; we've been evolving in the other direction for a while now. - Dan Dank55 ( push to talk) 23:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Maybe it would help to know where this is coming from. User:Kotniski is involved in a dispute over a guide that is being used as policy. The example that User:davidwr gives where users say "I thought it was a guideline already" is accurate in that it shows that much of it is based on perception and not the actual. The disputed guide WP:ICONDECORATION is being used as policy. Anyone can click on "What links here" and find many discussions where the guide is referred to as "policy," and the advocates for the guide don't bother to correct the misunderstanding. It suits the advocates for the guide just fine that it's seen as a badge of authority. It appears that Kotniski is looking for a distinction that is based on the actual distinctions and not the perceptions. I doubt there will ever be a concise distinction because perception makes a big difference when considering actual results.
But if I may offer another imperfect attempt at an actual distinction, much of it is based on the language used in the document. I'd say that an essay is an informative persuasion, a guide is suggestive advice, and a policy is authoritative commands. An example of the language in each:
This is not to say that policy doesn't contain persuasion and suggestions. A policy will most likely contain commands that don't require persuasion. But a guide shouldn't contain commands, especially without persuasion of why one should adhere and consensus that the command should be there. If an editor gets blocked because they didn't understand why a policy is making a command, it's not as serious as if an editor got blocked for not adhering to a command without persuasion that any newbie editor may have put in a guide with little or no consensus. Oicumayberight ( talk) 17:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)