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I am currently in a discussion with a user who posts on "user talk" pages to an alarming extent. So I thought of this problem and came up with a solution (that's what I do in real life) -- all user edits would be monitored on a rolling basis, and if the total of a user's article-space and wikipedia-space edits combined drop below 45% of his total edits, he is warned once. If, in the next 30 days he does not bring his ratio up to 45%, he is blocked for a week. The next infraction will bring a block of 30 days, the next 90 days, and the fourth time, he is shown the door.
This should keep the idlers away from Wikipedia, being that we should concentrate on articles and administration, not talk page chatter. What do you think? Halli B ( talk) 05:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
I also have posted a new essay: WP:Silence means nothing. Feel free to share your comments with me. Halli B ( talk) 06:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like WP:CREEP with a potential benefit not worth the kilobytes it would have to be written on, much less the volunteer coder hours that could be spent on fixing actual issues. -- erachima talk 07:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Can someone look at this site? Seems to be copyrighting the text from Incheon International Airport as hidden comments. I found this while trying to figure out if Incheon International Airport contains a copyvio itself. Vegaswikian ( talk) 07:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it true that Wikipedia content can be copied to Wikia? SharkD ( talk) 01:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Is it normal Wikipedia style to write "S.A.W." or "sallalahu aleyhi wasallam" (peace be upon him) after mentions of Muhammed's name, as occurs frequently in Ramadan (calendar month)? I understand it's normal Islamic practice but it seems unsuitable in a secular article. -- 81.171.134.226 ( talk) 13:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Image use policy#Image maps about the use of image maps in articles, about which we don't seem to have a specific policy. I'd appreciate it if anyone interested could weigh in there. Thanks. Chick Bowen 01:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Here's a question I thought worth getting wider opinion on. Aluminium is a light metallic element. In the United States it is usually spelled aluminum. WP:ENGVAR says "The English Wikipedia has no general preference for a major national variety of the language. No variety is more correct than the others. Users are asked to take into account that the differences between the varieties are superficial. It then goes on to talk about consistency within articles, strong national ties to a topic, retaining the existing variety, and opportunities for commonality.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Style guidelines however has, in relation to the "aluminium" spelling (and also sulfur and caesium): These international standard spellings should be used in all chemistry-related articles on English Wikipedia, even if they conflict with the other national spelling varieties used in the article. These are based on "preferred names" in IUPAC nomenclature.
The Space Shuttle was the specific focus which prompted the question; while it is clearly a project associated with the United States, I would argue that it falls into being a chemistry-related article by virtue of referring to a chemical element in a way that relates specifically to its chemical properties. Al is used not just as a structural material, but also as a propellant in the Solid Rocket Boosters, and it is used precisely because of its specific chemical properties.
I may because of my background in Chemistry be taking too wide a view on what constitutes a "chemistry-related article". What do others think? -- John ( talk) 22:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I am a bit afraid of the way the sockpuppet and multiple accounts policy might turn out. I see many users being blocked, not because they are using those alternate accounts to canvass, vote or vandalize, but because they just have multiple accounts. Take for example, there's a user, who wanted to change her username. She is a novice at Wikipedia and doesn't know about WP:CHANGINGUSERNAME, so she chooses to create a new account in ignorance. Satisfied with her new username, she wakes up the next day to find herself blocked. Rather then a complete block, a notice on her talk-page about just why did she create the new account will be more appropriate. Thus, further action will be taken after the rationale is found. (e.g. blocking, or advice)
Not only does this apply to the situation I described, but it applies to every situation where the user has multiple accounts. Should those multiple accounts be blatantly used for cavassing, voting or vandalizing or any disruptive behavior, then no further questioning will be needed. However, should the user have multiple accounts for non-controversial and non-disruptive purposes, then those accounts should not be blocked. (e.g. accounts made for use in public areas and accounts made because of ignorant mistakes, such as the one I described above.) Marlith (Talk) 00:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Please tell me if there are objections to the course of action outlined at Wikipedia_talk:Abuse_filter#Final_consensus-gathering. — Werdna • talk 13:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I propose that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) be broadened in scope to include list-type articles. SharkD ( talk) 01:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
How should
be handled? What differences in standard procedure exist between this sort of vandalism and standard "insert-random-insults-in-an-article"-type vandalism? Thanks in advance. Horselover Frost ( talk) 06:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Delete it. — Werdna • talk 08:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
A Request for comment has been raised about Wikipedia's civility policy and civility parole. It is available at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Civility restriction RFC. The two basic issues raised are how the community deals with persistent incivility from long term editors and what form the community expects editing restrictions to take. This RFC is a partial attempt to resolve the Georgewilliamherbert RFAR concerns raised by the ArbComm. Please leave comments and thoughts on the suggestions at the RFC itself. New or derivative proposals can be brought up on the RFC talk page. Thank you. Protonk ( talk) 17:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Supposedly, all guidelines represent consensus, and changes to them represent consensus. This is shown by the active consent of those who choose to participate in the process, and the silent consent of those who do not, but who follow them. My question is this: how seriously do most editors actually read and follow the Manual of Style? If we are required to obey its prescriptions, do we owe it to ourselves to be more concerned about it?
Supposedly, we don't require editors to read anything about the project or have any project-specific knowledge beyond how to edit a wiki and the short statement of NPOV and its corollaries, Verifiability and No Original Research. If you know your subject, cite sources, write decently, have a basic sense of fairness and are civil, you should be able to edit for a long time without ever needing to look at a policy or guideline.
Returning from a long wikivacation, I happened to run across a couple of MOS-related issues that surprised me: sometimes on talk pages, and sometimes when I was sharply reverted with a "per MOS" comment. The issues themselves are secondary: We apparently have stopped using bluelinked dates and apparently we have always used so-called "logical punctuation" of quotations, which contravenes the quotation-punctuation style that most of us were taught in school. OK, eventually I will get used to the first, and while the second strikes me as wrongheaded, it is clear that the regulars consider this a closed issue.
I am, however, left with the following observation: in comparison to other Wikipedia policies and guidelines, the MOS appears to me to have grown both in size and in prescriptivity during my absence. The size is daunting: far beyond what anyone but a committed editor would read. It reads as more prescriptive about details than verifiability policy and reliable source guidelines. The tone of related discussions on the talk page, and of many MOS-inspired edits that I have seen, seems to be "do this or your contribution is unwelcome." Perhaps that improves Wikipedia; I'm not sure.
Whereas one can apprehend Wikipedia's core policies from the nutshell description, the MOS is a mass of details, most of which have little to do with one another. One can't "get" it at a stroke, and one cannot reason a particular provision from first principles. That means, in effect, that each detailed provision must have its own detailed consensus. If, as I suspect, most editors have never looked at the MOS except when they are in doubt about a point, that weakens the nature of the implicit consensus. In practice, it would be much easier for a concerted group to foist a doubtful change on the MOS than on any other policy or guideline with such wide implications.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I'm the exception for never having paid much attention to the MOS. The claim of the regulars on the page is that it is widely read and agreed to. Maybe the consensus is stronger than I suspect. But, if I am right, perhaps we need to encourage more Wikipedians to pay more attention to it. I can think of no harm it could do, and it might do good. Robert A.West ( Talk) 01:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
←Response from Tony1: I'm apparently one of those "MoS warriors"; I'm also an FAC dinosaur, having reviewed there for three years, especially WRT standards of prose. Just like the English language itself—"big and baggy", Clive James called it—style on WP will always be a matter of dynamic tension between centrifugal and centripetal forces; this is not something that should upset us. Nor should the shifting of the balance towards the centripetal (standardisation, cohesiveness) over the past two years, with MoS main and its jungle of subsidiary pages the focal point. Nowhere is this more evident than in the FAC room, where compliance with the style guides is explicitly required.
Why has there been such a shift? There may be three reasons:
I'm interested to hear the views that are expressed here; this type of dialogue is important for the project as a whole. I'm sorry that there are negative feelings about the modern FAC process, but competitive processes are usually accompanied by a certain degree of angst. I encourage the users here to form strategic collaborative allliances with others who have a range of the necessary skills and knowledge to produce fine FA nominations: we look forward to reading them.
Concerning the cries that no one reads the style guides; well, that's like me and equipment instruction manuals—hate 'em and often try to do without. The style guides nevertheless play pivotal roles in educating and guiding our diverse community towards what is mostly regarded as the optimal product for our readers out there. People may have quibbles with this bit or that bit (I do ... no one agrees with it all, in its entirety), but as a whole, they're the beacon that knits WP together, along with its policy. Over time, and that's what we do have in this evolving project, these forces for cohesion will touch everything. Might I say that my own style improved significantly after properly digesting MoS main and MOSNUM.
If I were to criticise the style-guide infrastructure, it would be to say that there's a lack of overall coordination and auditing of the myriad of small, subsidiary specialist pages that have grown like topsy. We already have a WikiProject in place WP:MOSCO, and it's only a matter of time before it becomes more active in the task of vetting, trimming, rationalising and coordinating the style guides. Tony (talk) 06:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
My short take: MOSes only matter for FACs and GANs, so ignore them (i.e. use your common sense) when that's not your area of wiki interest. I may have read the main MOS once as a newbie out of interest, but the fine details only stuck in my brain when I unknowingly violated them in a FAC and had to read them up (I still learn new stuff that way). I'll use that MOS knowledge in my own reviews then, but I'll probably never become a true MOS-warrior because that's neither my area of expertise nor interest. – sgeureka t• c 07:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The only issue I have is when the MOS (apparently) requires things that make the wikicode annoyingly verbose, such as NY 373. -- NE2 08:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
,,
) for hard spaces would be so handy. But people seem not to want extra wiki-code.
Waltham,
The Duke of 14:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)Part of the reality of WP:MOS is that grammar and pedantic fanaticism have a long and established history. WP:MOS helps in that it keeps the arguments over "correct grammar" at WP:MOS instead of spilling over into mainspace. I believe that about 90% of MOS is useless instruction creep, but it's simply not worth fighting because the people who take matters of style seriously take it very seriously, and in the end consistency of style is a good thing. Answering WP:CREEP with bureaucracy is not a helpful solution, though, and I think the current system works reasonably well. SDY ( talk) 14:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
...editors will write in different prose styles that affect most readers more directly than minutiae like what kind of dashes we use."
To summarise the pros and cons of the current system, as I see it:
Some people like to think that one day, Wikipedia will be comparable to leading encyclopaedias such as the Britannica. Featured articles are considered to be articles that are of that standard, which are "as good or better" than published encyclopaedias, if I recall their description in the assessment guide correctly.
If a featured article is a "publication standard" article, then much as it pains me, it would be eroding the FA standard to mark non-copyedited text with the golden star. And a consistent style is to be found in all semi-professional publications - each publication chooses its style and sticks to it. It makes them look smarter, and also avoids inconsistencies within articles. Say that an editor wants to add the detail that so and so happened in the 1960s to a long article. A consistent style across WP means they don't first have to scan the whole of the rest of the article to work out whether to type 1960's or 1960s - they know that 1960s will always be correct.
The difference between WP and real publications is that we don't have a paid team of editors to do the grunt work. However, in many fields - such as preparing a manuscript for publication in a scientific journal - the same is true, and even the leading professor who should be lecturing and researching has to worry about whether his numbers are separated by en-dashes or hyphens if he doesn't want his manuscript returned.
Having an FA star is for many the only motivation to fix small but annoying errors - such as nbsp-ing numbers and units and making sure references actually work - which would otherwise simply never get done.
So I think, actually, much as I hate the effort of complying with it, that the MOS has a purpose. I won't debate the size of it here (but has anyone ever picked up the Chicago MOS? That's a workout for your biceps!) but given the premise that the MOS makes for a better reader experience - surely that's what all us editors are trying to provide, in one way or another.
And I think that requiring a "loose" adhesion to the MOS for GA, and a strict following for FA, editors receive the prod that they need to do the work that no-one wants to do. I often do wonder whether some reviewers spend more time pointing out each individual flaunting of the MOS than it would take just to fix them, but I guess that's a matter for individuals.
The FA and GA mark aren't just recognitions for content, but for article quality. Some editors like to collect "FA" stars like trophies, but a wise man warned me early on that this was a way to become embittered against WP. If an editor is expert enough to add useful content, then in an ideal world that's what they'd spend their time doing, and let others without such in-depth knowledge worry about style. However I suspect that most editors like the occasional pat on the back in the form of an article reaching a milestone, and if we didn't require FA articles to be of publishable standard, then I'm pretty sure WP would have much less articles of that standard.
So to sum up, I'd say - if the MOS bothers you, then ignore it, and let other people pick up the pieces. If you're adding useful content, that's gold dust to Wikipedia, is warmly received by readers, and is very unlikely to be simply removed for flaunting guidelines. However, ignoring the MOS completely will rub some people the wrong way. Further, the only reward you'll get will be the contentment that readers worldwide find your contribution useful and helpful. If that's not enough for you, and you want to earn a little gold star, then you'll have to "play the game" and jump through the stylish hoops!
As for the value of GA and FA, I'll leave you with this illustration of the traffic to an article I brought up to GA standard (on the 19th), and ask - was the effort really worth it?
Martin ( Smith609 – Talk) 09:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I have to confess, I've found the FA process very frustrating to. I think you need a whole host of {{ sofixit}} in your back pocket. I know people are trying to help, but do they not seem to realise it is very frustrating to be told to remove one word for better flow. That's stuff people should just fix, if you ask me. Hiding T 10:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Pmanderson has been spreading this story about the application of MoS at FAC for a very long time, but not once, although he's been asked many times, has he produced a single FAC that has failed because of MoS issues. It is also my opinion that the trainwreck that is the MoS will not be cleaned up until/unless something is done about Pmanderson's participation on those pages. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:11, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
To give this discussion a slight freshening and look at what consensus may and or may not exist:
(*I'm using a definition of trivial that includes compliance with pure style requirements that do not change the readability of an article, but I don't think there is a consensus for that definition, I'm only assuming that there is a consensus for not failing FA on issues which are not considered important).
Any disagreements with these statements? SDY ( talk) 23:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Another section heading to draw attention to a negative incorrect meme. No FAC or FAR has ever been failed on MoS concerns alone: should not be failed is spin about a non-existent issue. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
←So many things to respond to, but I'll keep it short and just respond to the questions in the first post:
It's just the opposite: a hard slog, especially in English, which is big and baggy and needs to be corralled by a set of locally determined guidelines attuned to the context, mode and readership of the publication. All serious publications set out these codes, usually in a manual (all publishing houses), and at least in a dedicated location in writing (academic journals, for example—see their "advice to authors" sections on their websites). That these guides are often not perfectly written is legendary; the Chicago MOS, the pre-eminent guide for US English, fails to take its own advice in numerous places. WP should be proud that it now has a MoS that, while not perfect, is pretty good for the purpose. Unlike most publishing houses, we aim to improve the skills of our writers with such instruments, not just to maintain standards and cohesion. FAC has the same dual purpose, as a solid investment in the skills of our editors. MoS and FAC come together to do this in Criterion 2. Let me say that my own writing improved considerably after reading WP's MoS a number of times, and that as an FAC reviewing has had the same effect—to tighten up my technical ability at writing and editing. I'm fairly sure that editors at large who take both seriously will derive such benefits too. That is partly the intention.
It's easy to moan about "trivia", and yes, sometimes it must seem pernickety to get all of the style details right. But as I implied in the comment above about cinematic editing, the devil is in the detail, and is essential to delivering a smooth reading experience to the people out there we serve. Heaven knows, expressing a lot of information for everyday readers is challenging enough without presenting them with inconsistent and what I and many others would judge to be suboptimal stylistic details. We owe it to them and to WP to get the prose and formatting consistent and good. Without MoS, that would be just about impossible.
As for the relationship between content and style—there's no hard-and-fast distinction, in my view. And our nominators are our content experts, not our reviewers, by and large, although non-experts in a topic can and often do sniff out shortcomings in content. Publishers usually don't employ content experts in-house (akin to our reviewers), but send submissions out to experts (akin to our nominators in the first place). Tony (talk) 02:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
"If a process is potentially good, but smart and well-intentioned people keep screwing it up, then it's a bad process."
You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Some observations:
I'm sure I've missed out a lot of important points from the preceding discussion, and apologise to the contributors. -- Philcha ( talk) 13:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
(<-)If ref after punctuation is something that concerns you, you can use Harvard-style Author/Date citation, at least in a new article. -- Avi ( talk) 18:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Comment Any chances that en-wiki will ever have a stable MOS? With MOS pages being blocked for edit warring [3], the whole topic becomes pointless. Follow MOS? Which MOS? NVO ( talk) 00:59, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the key to this discussion is respect. We all have different roles to play. Some of us write well, some of us read well and some of us write correctly. We need the clarity and organization of a real writer, the accuracy and central sources brought by a real researcher and the careful eye of a real copyeditor. We need all these skills and (let's face it) they don't usually come together in the same person. I, for one, am a better writer and researcher than a copyeditor. I'm indebted to those who have helped me with mdash or ndash or whatever it is. I would hope they forgive me my failings because they appreciate my strengths. I forgive the occasional gruff sideswipe from an MOS martinet because I appreciate their skills and knowledge.---- CharlesGillingham ( talk) 09:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The respect is in my forgiveness. Good copyeditors are typically gruff martinets. So what? We need their contribution.---- CharlesGillingham ( talk) 23:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Who is running the various notice boards? It seems like I keep running into the most useless people there. They sound like lazy crybabies. I am seriously fed up trying to be a model citizen only to get treated like the exact opposite. If I take the time to present valid information then I expect someone to take the time to give it fair treatment. I am tired of following the rules and then getting slapped in the face for it. I can't have people waste my time and turn around and say that I am wasting their time. Can we please get some competent people working those notice boards. I feel like this is kindergarten. Those people need to show some respect. I have even been to this board several times trying to find solutions to sock puppets and vandals only to have people like him come out guns blazing and shoot down everything I say. What kind of site is this? Are there any rational people here? I do not think it is appropriate for a notice board attendant to come out saying get out or get blocked. Where is the civility in that? I think there need to be some level of qualifications to be able to service those boards. We need a great deal more professionalism there. Libro0 ( talk) 19:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes et al. Most of those boards are seldom checked. I think it is innapropriate to go there and get threatened. Not productive. Libro0 ( talk) 19:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I think there should be provisional mediation. If you are successful at it then you can qualify to deal with more problems. Otherwise you are relegated to serving in some other capacity. Libro0 ( talk) 20:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
This is the reason I brought up this thread. This is a presumptuous statement, it is also incorrect. The statement was probably interpreted as such because of his mood. He made the statement to an admin who is likely in a similar mood. I could get blocked for an irresponsible comment like this. How does one make an interpretation like that from plain text? Like I said, people need to be more respectful and responsible because the interpretation of someone's intent in their written dialogue is skewed by your own mood and personality. Libro0 ( talk) 22:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Did you read the top of the admin board that says that it's not for dispute resolution? Have you looked at WP:DR? Corvus cornix talk 23:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes I have. I am currently using several of them. My concern though is people being hot headed or making incorrect judgements regardless of the board. Libro0 ( talk) 23:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
An example of why this is important. On Wikipedia:Third opinion it says 'The third opinion process requires good faith and civility on both sides of the dispute.' If an admin 'assumes' that one or both parties are making a hostile exchange when in fact they are not then it is the admin who has compromised the situation. I consider it a comendable achievement for one to become an admin. However I have noticed that some are better at dealing with situations than others. Respect is a two way street and an admin has to work harder to maintain the respect garnered by the position. I want to stress the difference between being 'authorized' to do something and actually being 'qualified' to do it. To think they are the same thing is to think the system is perfect. Although nothing is perfect, please consider an upgrade to RFA. Libro0 ( talk) 18:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
At the risk of offending even more people, I did mean being more strict with Request for Adminship. Libro0 ( talk) 21:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I am writing a book and I would like to learn if I can use your encyclopedia as one of my sources. Please reply me as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.7.46.128 ( talk) 18:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that there are some redirect pages in Wikipedia which are, in effect, subsets of others and which are therefore unnecessary and possibly even unhelpful. As an example, both UK and Uk redirect to United Kingdom. This may seem reasonable at first glance, because people might reasonably either type "UK" or "Uk" in order to get to the United Kingdom page, depending on how lazy they were feeling, but the Uk page is actually unnecessary. This is because, if it were deleted, then the UK redirect would pick up all instances of "Uk" anyway. Thus, we should create a new {{ db-r4}} category for speedy deletion of redirects which are, in effect, subsets of others. This is especially true of Uk as it is not only superflous, but is actually less correct than UK (as the latter is the correct abbreviation of United Kingdom), and so it should be UK that stays. When I encountered such problems in the past, I used {{ db-r3}}, but it does not seem to be wholly appropriate in such circumstances. Thus, I think we need a WP:CSD#R4 for such uncontroversial deletes. It Is Me Here ( talk) 10:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
After finding a large number of templates posted on Wikipedia discussion pages claiming the associated article as "...within the scope of WikiProject Robotics..." I wonder if the purpose of a robotics student in sacrificing an article is that only humans need it as a tool like polychotomous keys, and if such actions are contrary to Wikipedia goals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.11.142 ( talk) 12:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I propose that before an editor is able to open an account, he be required to read several guidelines first, most notably MOS (thoroughly) and What wikipedia is not. Just as in a licensing agreement, the prospective user should be required to check the "I have read/accept" box before his account will be activated. That way we will have better users, with still small barriers to entry. Halli B ( talk) 02:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
We couldn't. But at least some of the editors WOULD read it. There are no drawbacks to this plan. Halli B ( talk) 02:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Would WP:POINT be on the list? Anomie ⚔ 02:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't like this proposal. Yes, for the looks of it it seems like you are asking people to read it, but whom of you carefully studies the lengthy agreement when installing software before pressing "I agree". I never do (and may have signed away my fundamental human numerous times for all I know).
In my opinion this is just a nuisance for new editors, and a lot of useless bureaucracy for the project.
Arnoutf (
talk) 08:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Question: Is there a Wikipedia policy regarding literacy levels of English. It is extremely difficult to collaborate with editors who do not have a good grasp of English. This leads to misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy and methodology. This is very disruptive and impacts the development of articles.
If there is no guidance on this subject - maybe a new policy is required in this area.
Bobanni ( talk) 14:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
No, You guys are being too harsh and close-minded. The issue of poor writing is a very serious issue affecting a lot of Wikipedians, myself included. What happened to "Assume good faith"? It would be insulting and discouraging to remove some statement written poorly without any explanation to the original author, as it implies that he committed vandalism, which is not the case. This kind of action just drives people off from Wikipedia, while the job of established editors should be to encourage new people to contribute. I agree with Exploding Boy about his proposal, but Wikipedia:Local Embassy seems too inactive. Maybe we should revive it a little bit. Eklipse ( talk) 09:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
User NVO just admitted to a serious conflict of interest in this issue. I am with Celarnor, although I think we should simply indef block those incompetents in English. I doubt if anyone would really unblock. Halli B ( talk) 22:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Exploding Boy, please keep your comments civil. I do not wish to be victimized just for voicing my thoughts and opiniong. Halli B ( talk) 01:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
See also generally, m:Poor language skills; Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/International Churches of Christ; Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Stefanomencarelli. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 02:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have a lot of questions about how we're going to proceed with style guidelines and copyediting between now and WP 1.0. Opinions welcome at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Groan. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 22:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I see here that sometimes troublesome editors are placed on "probation" and/or "parole," where they have restricted editing privileges and are monitored full-time by an admin or other established editor. In keeping with the spirit of the whole system, I propose that editors on probation or parole are made to change their user names to a number, just like a prisoner incarcerated in a correctional system. The users would only be referred to by their "wikipedia corrections number" for the duration of their probation. Changing the probationers' names to a number would re-inforce their lower status as editors without full privileges, just as in real life correctional systems. Furthermore, it would make keeping track of them easier. These troublesome users would reform faster if treated in such a manner.
Of course upon successful completion of their probationary terms, the user would have the right to resume using his old user name. Halli B ( talk) 02:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed recently, a tendency for editors to delete material from talk pages and to cite WP:Talk as a reason. This concerns me. My reading of that page is that such actions were to be confined to BLP violations or manifest and extreme personal attacks. In Talk:Bristol Palin (article a semi-protected redirect on the theory that a bio article would violate undue weight), I have reverted some recent deletions by two different editors of comments not their own.
Am I misunderstanding our policy on talk pages? Is it OK to delete comments just because they are ranting, accuse Wikipedia of censorship or violate Godwin's Law? Robert A.West ( Talk) 12:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
It's entirely appropriate to remove off-topic discussion, per "How to use article talk pages" > Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal. Exploding Boy ( talk) 15:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
In the past I've deleted comments on Talk pages about actors with such comments as "ooh, he's so dreamy". Even if they're responded to, they're not there to improve the article. Talk pages are not chat rooms. Corvus cornix talk 20:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have made a proposal on the technical board, but perhaps it should have been posted here. Anyway I'm just drawing attention to it. Please post there to avoid duplication. Thanks, MSGJ 19:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
There is an ongoing request for comments regarding the notability of spin-out articles and the relationship between the main notability guideline and the subject specific notability guidelines at: Wikipedia talk:Notability/RFC:compromise. In order for the eventual results to be viable, a broad consensus will be required to move forward on any of the proposed compromises. As such, additional input from more editors would be greatly valued and appreciated. Thanks! Vassyana ( talk) 17:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Something that I have read about on blogs and the television is that if someone really wants to edit wikipedia there is nothing the administration can do to keep them out. For instance, your even the hard-blocking of IPs and IP ranges has no effect on crafy Brazilians and their cohorts. I look forward to editing Wikipedia much today and in the future. Thank you for your time. W.B. Wiki Brizhans ( talk) 17:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please see this. I was asked to post this somewhere, so here I am.-- Rockfang ( talk) 06:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
With the recent deprecation of date autoformatting, "raw" dates are becoming increasingly visible on Wikipedia. Strong views are being expressed, and even some edit-warring here and there. A poll has been initiated to gauge community support to help us develop wording in the Manual of Style that reflects a workable consensus. Four options have been put forward, summarised as:
The poll may be found here, as a table where editors may indicate level of support for each option above. -- Pete ( talk) 18:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
What is a "raw date"? Thanks, Halli B ( talk) 21:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. But I see the wikipedia date/time stamps on our signatures uses the DD/MM/YY format preferred in the English-speaking world. Why not just use that style all the time? Halli B ( talk) 22:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Uh, i beg to differ. And since when is "American" a language? If it is, I'm moving to Chelsea. Halli B ( talk) 21:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Given the recent spate of IP vandalism to templates which don't qualify for protection as "high-risk" yet still affect high-profile pages, I propose semi-protecting the entire template namespace. It has no real downside - the very few constructive IP edits to templates can be done via {{ editprotected}} - and will stop most of this inane template vandalism.
Thoughts? Daniel ( talk) 06:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
We're currently averaging about 30-40 complaints per day on OTRS relating to vandalism to templates, in particular the one with the giant highlight text which covers the article title and the edit tab. I think the previous consensus needs to be reexamined. Daniel ( talk) 13:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 18:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
GFDL [4] states under 4A: "Use in the Title Page (and on the covers, if any) a title distinct from that of the Document, and from those of previous versions (which should, if there were any, be listed in the History section of the Document). You may use the same title as a previous version if the original publisher of that version gives permission."
All articles in MediaWiki based platforms have the same title in each version. Doesn't this conflict with the above section? or do the users of Wikipedia specificly give their permission in a local policy (Which, I might add, does not exist in the Hebrew Wikipedia; Should this be added to our policy?)?
Thanks, Yonidebest Ω Talk 08:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I have recently ran into a problem regarding a source for images. In my opinion, an Http:// source must be present on non-free media, including album covers, to provide valid proof that it is indeed a copy of the album art and not some kid's photoshop experiment. Image:Thescore.jpg is the image that started it. A lot of images claim that the source is the record label, but this one does not. On my talk page, the uploader lists her rationale for not including a valid source but I don't think that it's a good enough reason. (I'm half tempted to take it to IfD) So my question is this: If you upload an album cover, is it required to add that the image can be obtained from the label and/or provide the http:// source? Basically, if an image is uploaded and has no http:// source or no label present, I don't think it has a valid source. (unless it was scanned by the uploader) Undead Warrior ( talk) 13:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
As you are aware, a detailed review of the Requests for Adminship Process has been ongoing for some time. In June, 209 editors provided their impressions and thoughts on the current state of the process; these responses were reviewed and analyzed. The results, including a statistical analysis of responses, are now available for review at Wikipedia:RfA Review/Reflect. Based on the results of this analysis, we have prepared a new set of questions for editor input.
Unlike the last round of questions, this questionnaire is drawn specifically from the responses we received from editors, and is intended to generate recommendations for addressing the most common concerns about the RfA process. All editors are invited to participate by following the instructions at Wikipedia:RfA Review/Recommend. Editors who did not participate in the first questionnaire are welcome to participate in this phase - and all editors should feel free to answer as many or as few of the questions as you wish. Any input is valuable. Responses will be reviewed, and the most common responses will form the basis for possible changes to the RfA process itself.
On behalf of the editors who have helped with the project so far, thank you for your participation. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 18:20, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently I'm in a small dispute with Everyme over his redirecting his User:Everyme/user page into User. I removed it without notifying him; today he reverted back, citing that the cross-name redirect strictly applies from the mainspace to the user. I based my action on Angry Aspie's user page, in which the user tried redirecting to Asperger syndrome but was redirected. That train of thought follows that it makes people confused and access contributions if they're being led to another page. I maintain that the rule is designed to prevent the mixing of the two namespaces, regardless of whether main to user or user to main. Is my action in the spirit of the rule? hbdragon88 ( talk) 19:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Technically speaking...more research over at WP:SIG...it's required that a signature links to at least the user or user talk page, which Everyme does. Further, the guideline prohibits "disruptive links," like an autograph page. The only reason why I even did this to begin with was because I was pretty confused on why I got hit to User when clicking the apparent user page. That can be constructed as some disruption, though in practical reality I knew exactly how to get to the right page since I've been here for so long. hbdragon88 ( talk) 19:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, does anyone think there are any pages on Wikipedia that would exist were it not for the threat of trolls vandalising them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.164.115 ( talk) 20:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I see the [citation needed] template used in every manner of situation even ones that are highly inappropriate where the statements made are entirely uncontroversial and purely factual or descriptive in nature. These tend to be along the lines of: "The allies won the second world war[citation needed]" and are just annoyances to the editors of wikipedia who actually do the useful work of adding new material.
The presence of a fact template suggests that there is something wrong with a statement or that it is doubtful or controversial.
I think that fact templates should only be added when the factuality of a statement is seriously in doubt or of controversial nature. In order to deal with incidences of drive by tagging I think there should be a reqiurement of anyone who makes a [citation needed] tag must write in the talk section exactly what they think is wrong with a statement.
There is also the issue of things which may not be documented, though they might be generally held as being true. If I wrote that "Alice Springs in Australia is not inhabited by four legged martians[citation needed]" I doubt I'd be able to find a source anywhere on earth that will specifically agree with that fact. In a more practical sense, if in a mathematical context one were to write 2 + 2 = 4[citation needed], there is no mathematical proof for the truth of such a statement (a point made by Roger Penrose) but the statement is almost universally held as true and certainly not controversial or doubtful in any way. Some statements are really difficult or impossible to find references for, not because they are wrong or 'original research' but because of their nature. Although there are statements where references can be found (sometimes only in print) wiki editors are not paid and many useful contributors don't want to waste their own time looking up references and writing them in when the statements themselves are completely sound.
I don't understand the motivations of people who add fact tags in inappropriate places (although I sometimes question their intelligence or character in my own mind) but anyone who adds a fact tag should be required to make a note on the discussion page of the article saying why they thought it was necessary to have the tag in the first place. I think it's important to use common sense when tagging the fact tag because it can do more harm than good in some cases. The potential harm includes: discouraging editors, wasting editor's time and fostering unfounded doubts in the minds of readers. Sometimes the [citation needed] tag seems to be the wikipedia analog of vexatious litigation.
I hope that the policies can be changed to retain the advantages of this tag without all the downsides which I have just outlined. -- I ( talk) 16:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I wanted to know if Wikipedia has any policy regarding to the removal of hate links and comments from user pages? -- Kaaveh ( talk) 04:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi, can someone please comment on the {{ PD-Yugoslavia}}? Does this Agreement on succession issues really make the images owned by »SFRY State archives« public domain? Does it really apply to images like Image:Jakob Aljaž.jpg? -- Eleassar my talk 14:55, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
As the author is unknown it's impossible to know if more than 100 years have passed since his death. What about this PD and Agreement issue? -- Eleassar my talk 09:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
A few weeks ago i wrote the essay Wikipedia:The Free Encyclopedia. It tries to explain the meaning of "free" in "The Free Encyclopedia". Its main point is that "free" refers to the licensing of Wikipedia and it cites Jimbo to prove it.
I propose to promote it to be a policy. I found no other document that clearly presents Wikimedia Foundation's policy mission statement on the matter. The documents that would come the closest are Wikipedia:Copyright, which is too legalese and the third of the five pillars of Wikipedia, which is too short.
Here is a previous discussion about it:
Opinions are welcome. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 18:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
wikimedia:Mission statement? Mr. Z-man 19:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Just a note of change, comments are welcome. link. NonvocalScream ( talk) 21:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I've written down some thoughts about a proposal to limit the creation of new articles, while allowing anonymous users to create articles (which is not the case now). Your thoughts and comments are highly valued, see User:Plrk/On the creation of articles. Plrk ( talk) 21:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Should we move this discussion to the talk page? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I thought about the objections to my "required reading" proposal (supra) and have this addendum to my proposal. Before you laugh my original idea out of hand, please consider this rejoinder to your objections that there would be no way to know if the user had indeed read the manual of style even if he checked "I agree." I propose that a new user would be required to take (and of course pass) a small "test" of his MOS knowledge before his account be activated. The test would be ten to twenty questions drawn from the MOS with multiple choice answers. The correct answer would be the "best answer" out of the four options given and the prospective user would have to score a 80% (this is subject to debate of course) passing score on the MOS test before his account would be activated. I think a multiple choice objective test would be easier to grade than an essay test, although I agonized over this issue for a while before coming to my conclusion.
A sample question would be like:
Q. Which of the following article titles conforms to Manual of Style guidelines? (select the best answer):
Correct answer: D
And so on... Or we could divide the test into different sections, one dealing with MOS, and one dealing with WP:NOT, and whatever other guidelines and texts we wish a new user to be familiar with.
So that's how we know the user has indeed read the texts. Now that this objection has been answered I think its time to implement this policy. The next step is writing the questions -- and I am up to thirty-five different MOS questions and answers so far. Please help. Halli B ( talk) 22:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
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I am currently in a discussion with a user who posts on "user talk" pages to an alarming extent. So I thought of this problem and came up with a solution (that's what I do in real life) -- all user edits would be monitored on a rolling basis, and if the total of a user's article-space and wikipedia-space edits combined drop below 45% of his total edits, he is warned once. If, in the next 30 days he does not bring his ratio up to 45%, he is blocked for a week. The next infraction will bring a block of 30 days, the next 90 days, and the fourth time, he is shown the door.
This should keep the idlers away from Wikipedia, being that we should concentrate on articles and administration, not talk page chatter. What do you think? Halli B ( talk) 05:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
I also have posted a new essay: WP:Silence means nothing. Feel free to share your comments with me. Halli B ( talk) 06:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like WP:CREEP with a potential benefit not worth the kilobytes it would have to be written on, much less the volunteer coder hours that could be spent on fixing actual issues. -- erachima talk 07:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Can someone look at this site? Seems to be copyrighting the text from Incheon International Airport as hidden comments. I found this while trying to figure out if Incheon International Airport contains a copyvio itself. Vegaswikian ( talk) 07:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it true that Wikipedia content can be copied to Wikia? SharkD ( talk) 01:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Is it normal Wikipedia style to write "S.A.W." or "sallalahu aleyhi wasallam" (peace be upon him) after mentions of Muhammed's name, as occurs frequently in Ramadan (calendar month)? I understand it's normal Islamic practice but it seems unsuitable in a secular article. -- 81.171.134.226 ( talk) 13:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Image use policy#Image maps about the use of image maps in articles, about which we don't seem to have a specific policy. I'd appreciate it if anyone interested could weigh in there. Thanks. Chick Bowen 01:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Here's a question I thought worth getting wider opinion on. Aluminium is a light metallic element. In the United States it is usually spelled aluminum. WP:ENGVAR says "The English Wikipedia has no general preference for a major national variety of the language. No variety is more correct than the others. Users are asked to take into account that the differences between the varieties are superficial. It then goes on to talk about consistency within articles, strong national ties to a topic, retaining the existing variety, and opportunities for commonality.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Style guidelines however has, in relation to the "aluminium" spelling (and also sulfur and caesium): These international standard spellings should be used in all chemistry-related articles on English Wikipedia, even if they conflict with the other national spelling varieties used in the article. These are based on "preferred names" in IUPAC nomenclature.
The Space Shuttle was the specific focus which prompted the question; while it is clearly a project associated with the United States, I would argue that it falls into being a chemistry-related article by virtue of referring to a chemical element in a way that relates specifically to its chemical properties. Al is used not just as a structural material, but also as a propellant in the Solid Rocket Boosters, and it is used precisely because of its specific chemical properties.
I may because of my background in Chemistry be taking too wide a view on what constitutes a "chemistry-related article". What do others think? -- John ( talk) 22:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I am a bit afraid of the way the sockpuppet and multiple accounts policy might turn out. I see many users being blocked, not because they are using those alternate accounts to canvass, vote or vandalize, but because they just have multiple accounts. Take for example, there's a user, who wanted to change her username. She is a novice at Wikipedia and doesn't know about WP:CHANGINGUSERNAME, so she chooses to create a new account in ignorance. Satisfied with her new username, she wakes up the next day to find herself blocked. Rather then a complete block, a notice on her talk-page about just why did she create the new account will be more appropriate. Thus, further action will be taken after the rationale is found. (e.g. blocking, or advice)
Not only does this apply to the situation I described, but it applies to every situation where the user has multiple accounts. Should those multiple accounts be blatantly used for cavassing, voting or vandalizing or any disruptive behavior, then no further questioning will be needed. However, should the user have multiple accounts for non-controversial and non-disruptive purposes, then those accounts should not be blocked. (e.g. accounts made for use in public areas and accounts made because of ignorant mistakes, such as the one I described above.) Marlith (Talk) 00:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Please tell me if there are objections to the course of action outlined at Wikipedia_talk:Abuse_filter#Final_consensus-gathering. — Werdna • talk 13:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I propose that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) be broadened in scope to include list-type articles. SharkD ( talk) 01:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
How should
be handled? What differences in standard procedure exist between this sort of vandalism and standard "insert-random-insults-in-an-article"-type vandalism? Thanks in advance. Horselover Frost ( talk) 06:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Delete it. — Werdna • talk 08:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
A Request for comment has been raised about Wikipedia's civility policy and civility parole. It is available at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Civility restriction RFC. The two basic issues raised are how the community deals with persistent incivility from long term editors and what form the community expects editing restrictions to take. This RFC is a partial attempt to resolve the Georgewilliamherbert RFAR concerns raised by the ArbComm. Please leave comments and thoughts on the suggestions at the RFC itself. New or derivative proposals can be brought up on the RFC talk page. Thank you. Protonk ( talk) 17:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Supposedly, all guidelines represent consensus, and changes to them represent consensus. This is shown by the active consent of those who choose to participate in the process, and the silent consent of those who do not, but who follow them. My question is this: how seriously do most editors actually read and follow the Manual of Style? If we are required to obey its prescriptions, do we owe it to ourselves to be more concerned about it?
Supposedly, we don't require editors to read anything about the project or have any project-specific knowledge beyond how to edit a wiki and the short statement of NPOV and its corollaries, Verifiability and No Original Research. If you know your subject, cite sources, write decently, have a basic sense of fairness and are civil, you should be able to edit for a long time without ever needing to look at a policy or guideline.
Returning from a long wikivacation, I happened to run across a couple of MOS-related issues that surprised me: sometimes on talk pages, and sometimes when I was sharply reverted with a "per MOS" comment. The issues themselves are secondary: We apparently have stopped using bluelinked dates and apparently we have always used so-called "logical punctuation" of quotations, which contravenes the quotation-punctuation style that most of us were taught in school. OK, eventually I will get used to the first, and while the second strikes me as wrongheaded, it is clear that the regulars consider this a closed issue.
I am, however, left with the following observation: in comparison to other Wikipedia policies and guidelines, the MOS appears to me to have grown both in size and in prescriptivity during my absence. The size is daunting: far beyond what anyone but a committed editor would read. It reads as more prescriptive about details than verifiability policy and reliable source guidelines. The tone of related discussions on the talk page, and of many MOS-inspired edits that I have seen, seems to be "do this or your contribution is unwelcome." Perhaps that improves Wikipedia; I'm not sure.
Whereas one can apprehend Wikipedia's core policies from the nutshell description, the MOS is a mass of details, most of which have little to do with one another. One can't "get" it at a stroke, and one cannot reason a particular provision from first principles. That means, in effect, that each detailed provision must have its own detailed consensus. If, as I suspect, most editors have never looked at the MOS except when they are in doubt about a point, that weakens the nature of the implicit consensus. In practice, it would be much easier for a concerted group to foist a doubtful change on the MOS than on any other policy or guideline with such wide implications.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I'm the exception for never having paid much attention to the MOS. The claim of the regulars on the page is that it is widely read and agreed to. Maybe the consensus is stronger than I suspect. But, if I am right, perhaps we need to encourage more Wikipedians to pay more attention to it. I can think of no harm it could do, and it might do good. Robert A.West ( Talk) 01:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
←Response from Tony1: I'm apparently one of those "MoS warriors"; I'm also an FAC dinosaur, having reviewed there for three years, especially WRT standards of prose. Just like the English language itself—"big and baggy", Clive James called it—style on WP will always be a matter of dynamic tension between centrifugal and centripetal forces; this is not something that should upset us. Nor should the shifting of the balance towards the centripetal (standardisation, cohesiveness) over the past two years, with MoS main and its jungle of subsidiary pages the focal point. Nowhere is this more evident than in the FAC room, where compliance with the style guides is explicitly required.
Why has there been such a shift? There may be three reasons:
I'm interested to hear the views that are expressed here; this type of dialogue is important for the project as a whole. I'm sorry that there are negative feelings about the modern FAC process, but competitive processes are usually accompanied by a certain degree of angst. I encourage the users here to form strategic collaborative allliances with others who have a range of the necessary skills and knowledge to produce fine FA nominations: we look forward to reading them.
Concerning the cries that no one reads the style guides; well, that's like me and equipment instruction manuals—hate 'em and often try to do without. The style guides nevertheless play pivotal roles in educating and guiding our diverse community towards what is mostly regarded as the optimal product for our readers out there. People may have quibbles with this bit or that bit (I do ... no one agrees with it all, in its entirety), but as a whole, they're the beacon that knits WP together, along with its policy. Over time, and that's what we do have in this evolving project, these forces for cohesion will touch everything. Might I say that my own style improved significantly after properly digesting MoS main and MOSNUM.
If I were to criticise the style-guide infrastructure, it would be to say that there's a lack of overall coordination and auditing of the myriad of small, subsidiary specialist pages that have grown like topsy. We already have a WikiProject in place WP:MOSCO, and it's only a matter of time before it becomes more active in the task of vetting, trimming, rationalising and coordinating the style guides. Tony (talk) 06:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
My short take: MOSes only matter for FACs and GANs, so ignore them (i.e. use your common sense) when that's not your area of wiki interest. I may have read the main MOS once as a newbie out of interest, but the fine details only stuck in my brain when I unknowingly violated them in a FAC and had to read them up (I still learn new stuff that way). I'll use that MOS knowledge in my own reviews then, but I'll probably never become a true MOS-warrior because that's neither my area of expertise nor interest. – sgeureka t• c 07:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The only issue I have is when the MOS (apparently) requires things that make the wikicode annoyingly verbose, such as NY 373. -- NE2 08:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
,,
) for hard spaces would be so handy. But people seem not to want extra wiki-code.
Waltham,
The Duke of 14:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)Part of the reality of WP:MOS is that grammar and pedantic fanaticism have a long and established history. WP:MOS helps in that it keeps the arguments over "correct grammar" at WP:MOS instead of spilling over into mainspace. I believe that about 90% of MOS is useless instruction creep, but it's simply not worth fighting because the people who take matters of style seriously take it very seriously, and in the end consistency of style is a good thing. Answering WP:CREEP with bureaucracy is not a helpful solution, though, and I think the current system works reasonably well. SDY ( talk) 14:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
...editors will write in different prose styles that affect most readers more directly than minutiae like what kind of dashes we use."
To summarise the pros and cons of the current system, as I see it:
Some people like to think that one day, Wikipedia will be comparable to leading encyclopaedias such as the Britannica. Featured articles are considered to be articles that are of that standard, which are "as good or better" than published encyclopaedias, if I recall their description in the assessment guide correctly.
If a featured article is a "publication standard" article, then much as it pains me, it would be eroding the FA standard to mark non-copyedited text with the golden star. And a consistent style is to be found in all semi-professional publications - each publication chooses its style and sticks to it. It makes them look smarter, and also avoids inconsistencies within articles. Say that an editor wants to add the detail that so and so happened in the 1960s to a long article. A consistent style across WP means they don't first have to scan the whole of the rest of the article to work out whether to type 1960's or 1960s - they know that 1960s will always be correct.
The difference between WP and real publications is that we don't have a paid team of editors to do the grunt work. However, in many fields - such as preparing a manuscript for publication in a scientific journal - the same is true, and even the leading professor who should be lecturing and researching has to worry about whether his numbers are separated by en-dashes or hyphens if he doesn't want his manuscript returned.
Having an FA star is for many the only motivation to fix small but annoying errors - such as nbsp-ing numbers and units and making sure references actually work - which would otherwise simply never get done.
So I think, actually, much as I hate the effort of complying with it, that the MOS has a purpose. I won't debate the size of it here (but has anyone ever picked up the Chicago MOS? That's a workout for your biceps!) but given the premise that the MOS makes for a better reader experience - surely that's what all us editors are trying to provide, in one way or another.
And I think that requiring a "loose" adhesion to the MOS for GA, and a strict following for FA, editors receive the prod that they need to do the work that no-one wants to do. I often do wonder whether some reviewers spend more time pointing out each individual flaunting of the MOS than it would take just to fix them, but I guess that's a matter for individuals.
The FA and GA mark aren't just recognitions for content, but for article quality. Some editors like to collect "FA" stars like trophies, but a wise man warned me early on that this was a way to become embittered against WP. If an editor is expert enough to add useful content, then in an ideal world that's what they'd spend their time doing, and let others without such in-depth knowledge worry about style. However I suspect that most editors like the occasional pat on the back in the form of an article reaching a milestone, and if we didn't require FA articles to be of publishable standard, then I'm pretty sure WP would have much less articles of that standard.
So to sum up, I'd say - if the MOS bothers you, then ignore it, and let other people pick up the pieces. If you're adding useful content, that's gold dust to Wikipedia, is warmly received by readers, and is very unlikely to be simply removed for flaunting guidelines. However, ignoring the MOS completely will rub some people the wrong way. Further, the only reward you'll get will be the contentment that readers worldwide find your contribution useful and helpful. If that's not enough for you, and you want to earn a little gold star, then you'll have to "play the game" and jump through the stylish hoops!
As for the value of GA and FA, I'll leave you with this illustration of the traffic to an article I brought up to GA standard (on the 19th), and ask - was the effort really worth it?
Martin ( Smith609 – Talk) 09:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I have to confess, I've found the FA process very frustrating to. I think you need a whole host of {{ sofixit}} in your back pocket. I know people are trying to help, but do they not seem to realise it is very frustrating to be told to remove one word for better flow. That's stuff people should just fix, if you ask me. Hiding T 10:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Pmanderson has been spreading this story about the application of MoS at FAC for a very long time, but not once, although he's been asked many times, has he produced a single FAC that has failed because of MoS issues. It is also my opinion that the trainwreck that is the MoS will not be cleaned up until/unless something is done about Pmanderson's participation on those pages. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:11, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
To give this discussion a slight freshening and look at what consensus may and or may not exist:
(*I'm using a definition of trivial that includes compliance with pure style requirements that do not change the readability of an article, but I don't think there is a consensus for that definition, I'm only assuming that there is a consensus for not failing FA on issues which are not considered important).
Any disagreements with these statements? SDY ( talk) 23:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Another section heading to draw attention to a negative incorrect meme. No FAC or FAR has ever been failed on MoS concerns alone: should not be failed is spin about a non-existent issue. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
←So many things to respond to, but I'll keep it short and just respond to the questions in the first post:
It's just the opposite: a hard slog, especially in English, which is big and baggy and needs to be corralled by a set of locally determined guidelines attuned to the context, mode and readership of the publication. All serious publications set out these codes, usually in a manual (all publishing houses), and at least in a dedicated location in writing (academic journals, for example—see their "advice to authors" sections on their websites). That these guides are often not perfectly written is legendary; the Chicago MOS, the pre-eminent guide for US English, fails to take its own advice in numerous places. WP should be proud that it now has a MoS that, while not perfect, is pretty good for the purpose. Unlike most publishing houses, we aim to improve the skills of our writers with such instruments, not just to maintain standards and cohesion. FAC has the same dual purpose, as a solid investment in the skills of our editors. MoS and FAC come together to do this in Criterion 2. Let me say that my own writing improved considerably after reading WP's MoS a number of times, and that as an FAC reviewing has had the same effect—to tighten up my technical ability at writing and editing. I'm fairly sure that editors at large who take both seriously will derive such benefits too. That is partly the intention.
It's easy to moan about "trivia", and yes, sometimes it must seem pernickety to get all of the style details right. But as I implied in the comment above about cinematic editing, the devil is in the detail, and is essential to delivering a smooth reading experience to the people out there we serve. Heaven knows, expressing a lot of information for everyday readers is challenging enough without presenting them with inconsistent and what I and many others would judge to be suboptimal stylistic details. We owe it to them and to WP to get the prose and formatting consistent and good. Without MoS, that would be just about impossible.
As for the relationship between content and style—there's no hard-and-fast distinction, in my view. And our nominators are our content experts, not our reviewers, by and large, although non-experts in a topic can and often do sniff out shortcomings in content. Publishers usually don't employ content experts in-house (akin to our reviewers), but send submissions out to experts (akin to our nominators in the first place). Tony (talk) 02:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
"If a process is potentially good, but smart and well-intentioned people keep screwing it up, then it's a bad process."
You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Some observations:
I'm sure I've missed out a lot of important points from the preceding discussion, and apologise to the contributors. -- Philcha ( talk) 13:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
(<-)If ref after punctuation is something that concerns you, you can use Harvard-style Author/Date citation, at least in a new article. -- Avi ( talk) 18:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Comment Any chances that en-wiki will ever have a stable MOS? With MOS pages being blocked for edit warring [3], the whole topic becomes pointless. Follow MOS? Which MOS? NVO ( talk) 00:59, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the key to this discussion is respect. We all have different roles to play. Some of us write well, some of us read well and some of us write correctly. We need the clarity and organization of a real writer, the accuracy and central sources brought by a real researcher and the careful eye of a real copyeditor. We need all these skills and (let's face it) they don't usually come together in the same person. I, for one, am a better writer and researcher than a copyeditor. I'm indebted to those who have helped me with mdash or ndash or whatever it is. I would hope they forgive me my failings because they appreciate my strengths. I forgive the occasional gruff sideswipe from an MOS martinet because I appreciate their skills and knowledge.---- CharlesGillingham ( talk) 09:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The respect is in my forgiveness. Good copyeditors are typically gruff martinets. So what? We need their contribution.---- CharlesGillingham ( talk) 23:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Who is running the various notice boards? It seems like I keep running into the most useless people there. They sound like lazy crybabies. I am seriously fed up trying to be a model citizen only to get treated like the exact opposite. If I take the time to present valid information then I expect someone to take the time to give it fair treatment. I am tired of following the rules and then getting slapped in the face for it. I can't have people waste my time and turn around and say that I am wasting their time. Can we please get some competent people working those notice boards. I feel like this is kindergarten. Those people need to show some respect. I have even been to this board several times trying to find solutions to sock puppets and vandals only to have people like him come out guns blazing and shoot down everything I say. What kind of site is this? Are there any rational people here? I do not think it is appropriate for a notice board attendant to come out saying get out or get blocked. Where is the civility in that? I think there need to be some level of qualifications to be able to service those boards. We need a great deal more professionalism there. Libro0 ( talk) 19:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes et al. Most of those boards are seldom checked. I think it is innapropriate to go there and get threatened. Not productive. Libro0 ( talk) 19:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I think there should be provisional mediation. If you are successful at it then you can qualify to deal with more problems. Otherwise you are relegated to serving in some other capacity. Libro0 ( talk) 20:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
This is the reason I brought up this thread. This is a presumptuous statement, it is also incorrect. The statement was probably interpreted as such because of his mood. He made the statement to an admin who is likely in a similar mood. I could get blocked for an irresponsible comment like this. How does one make an interpretation like that from plain text? Like I said, people need to be more respectful and responsible because the interpretation of someone's intent in their written dialogue is skewed by your own mood and personality. Libro0 ( talk) 22:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Did you read the top of the admin board that says that it's not for dispute resolution? Have you looked at WP:DR? Corvus cornix talk 23:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes I have. I am currently using several of them. My concern though is people being hot headed or making incorrect judgements regardless of the board. Libro0 ( talk) 23:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
An example of why this is important. On Wikipedia:Third opinion it says 'The third opinion process requires good faith and civility on both sides of the dispute.' If an admin 'assumes' that one or both parties are making a hostile exchange when in fact they are not then it is the admin who has compromised the situation. I consider it a comendable achievement for one to become an admin. However I have noticed that some are better at dealing with situations than others. Respect is a two way street and an admin has to work harder to maintain the respect garnered by the position. I want to stress the difference between being 'authorized' to do something and actually being 'qualified' to do it. To think they are the same thing is to think the system is perfect. Although nothing is perfect, please consider an upgrade to RFA. Libro0 ( talk) 18:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
At the risk of offending even more people, I did mean being more strict with Request for Adminship. Libro0 ( talk) 21:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I am writing a book and I would like to learn if I can use your encyclopedia as one of my sources. Please reply me as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.7.46.128 ( talk) 18:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that there are some redirect pages in Wikipedia which are, in effect, subsets of others and which are therefore unnecessary and possibly even unhelpful. As an example, both UK and Uk redirect to United Kingdom. This may seem reasonable at first glance, because people might reasonably either type "UK" or "Uk" in order to get to the United Kingdom page, depending on how lazy they were feeling, but the Uk page is actually unnecessary. This is because, if it were deleted, then the UK redirect would pick up all instances of "Uk" anyway. Thus, we should create a new {{ db-r4}} category for speedy deletion of redirects which are, in effect, subsets of others. This is especially true of Uk as it is not only superflous, but is actually less correct than UK (as the latter is the correct abbreviation of United Kingdom), and so it should be UK that stays. When I encountered such problems in the past, I used {{ db-r3}}, but it does not seem to be wholly appropriate in such circumstances. Thus, I think we need a WP:CSD#R4 for such uncontroversial deletes. It Is Me Here ( talk) 10:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
After finding a large number of templates posted on Wikipedia discussion pages claiming the associated article as "...within the scope of WikiProject Robotics..." I wonder if the purpose of a robotics student in sacrificing an article is that only humans need it as a tool like polychotomous keys, and if such actions are contrary to Wikipedia goals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.11.142 ( talk) 12:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I propose that before an editor is able to open an account, he be required to read several guidelines first, most notably MOS (thoroughly) and What wikipedia is not. Just as in a licensing agreement, the prospective user should be required to check the "I have read/accept" box before his account will be activated. That way we will have better users, with still small barriers to entry. Halli B ( talk) 02:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
We couldn't. But at least some of the editors WOULD read it. There are no drawbacks to this plan. Halli B ( talk) 02:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Would WP:POINT be on the list? Anomie ⚔ 02:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't like this proposal. Yes, for the looks of it it seems like you are asking people to read it, but whom of you carefully studies the lengthy agreement when installing software before pressing "I agree". I never do (and may have signed away my fundamental human numerous times for all I know).
In my opinion this is just a nuisance for new editors, and a lot of useless bureaucracy for the project.
Arnoutf (
talk) 08:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Question: Is there a Wikipedia policy regarding literacy levels of English. It is extremely difficult to collaborate with editors who do not have a good grasp of English. This leads to misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy and methodology. This is very disruptive and impacts the development of articles.
If there is no guidance on this subject - maybe a new policy is required in this area.
Bobanni ( talk) 14:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
No, You guys are being too harsh and close-minded. The issue of poor writing is a very serious issue affecting a lot of Wikipedians, myself included. What happened to "Assume good faith"? It would be insulting and discouraging to remove some statement written poorly without any explanation to the original author, as it implies that he committed vandalism, which is not the case. This kind of action just drives people off from Wikipedia, while the job of established editors should be to encourage new people to contribute. I agree with Exploding Boy about his proposal, but Wikipedia:Local Embassy seems too inactive. Maybe we should revive it a little bit. Eklipse ( talk) 09:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
User NVO just admitted to a serious conflict of interest in this issue. I am with Celarnor, although I think we should simply indef block those incompetents in English. I doubt if anyone would really unblock. Halli B ( talk) 22:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Exploding Boy, please keep your comments civil. I do not wish to be victimized just for voicing my thoughts and opiniong. Halli B ( talk) 01:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
See also generally, m:Poor language skills; Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/International Churches of Christ; Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Stefanomencarelli. Newyorkbrad ( talk) 02:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have a lot of questions about how we're going to proceed with style guidelines and copyediting between now and WP 1.0. Opinions welcome at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Groan. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 22:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I see here that sometimes troublesome editors are placed on "probation" and/or "parole," where they have restricted editing privileges and are monitored full-time by an admin or other established editor. In keeping with the spirit of the whole system, I propose that editors on probation or parole are made to change their user names to a number, just like a prisoner incarcerated in a correctional system. The users would only be referred to by their "wikipedia corrections number" for the duration of their probation. Changing the probationers' names to a number would re-inforce their lower status as editors without full privileges, just as in real life correctional systems. Furthermore, it would make keeping track of them easier. These troublesome users would reform faster if treated in such a manner.
Of course upon successful completion of their probationary terms, the user would have the right to resume using his old user name. Halli B ( talk) 02:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed recently, a tendency for editors to delete material from talk pages and to cite WP:Talk as a reason. This concerns me. My reading of that page is that such actions were to be confined to BLP violations or manifest and extreme personal attacks. In Talk:Bristol Palin (article a semi-protected redirect on the theory that a bio article would violate undue weight), I have reverted some recent deletions by two different editors of comments not their own.
Am I misunderstanding our policy on talk pages? Is it OK to delete comments just because they are ranting, accuse Wikipedia of censorship or violate Godwin's Law? Robert A.West ( Talk) 12:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
It's entirely appropriate to remove off-topic discussion, per "How to use article talk pages" > Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal. Exploding Boy ( talk) 15:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
In the past I've deleted comments on Talk pages about actors with such comments as "ooh, he's so dreamy". Even if they're responded to, they're not there to improve the article. Talk pages are not chat rooms. Corvus cornix talk 20:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have made a proposal on the technical board, but perhaps it should have been posted here. Anyway I'm just drawing attention to it. Please post there to avoid duplication. Thanks, MSGJ 19:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
There is an ongoing request for comments regarding the notability of spin-out articles and the relationship between the main notability guideline and the subject specific notability guidelines at: Wikipedia talk:Notability/RFC:compromise. In order for the eventual results to be viable, a broad consensus will be required to move forward on any of the proposed compromises. As such, additional input from more editors would be greatly valued and appreciated. Thanks! Vassyana ( talk) 17:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Something that I have read about on blogs and the television is that if someone really wants to edit wikipedia there is nothing the administration can do to keep them out. For instance, your even the hard-blocking of IPs and IP ranges has no effect on crafy Brazilians and their cohorts. I look forward to editing Wikipedia much today and in the future. Thank you for your time. W.B. Wiki Brizhans ( talk) 17:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please see this. I was asked to post this somewhere, so here I am.-- Rockfang ( talk) 06:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
With the recent deprecation of date autoformatting, "raw" dates are becoming increasingly visible on Wikipedia. Strong views are being expressed, and even some edit-warring here and there. A poll has been initiated to gauge community support to help us develop wording in the Manual of Style that reflects a workable consensus. Four options have been put forward, summarised as:
The poll may be found here, as a table where editors may indicate level of support for each option above. -- Pete ( talk) 18:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
What is a "raw date"? Thanks, Halli B ( talk) 21:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. But I see the wikipedia date/time stamps on our signatures uses the DD/MM/YY format preferred in the English-speaking world. Why not just use that style all the time? Halli B ( talk) 22:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Uh, i beg to differ. And since when is "American" a language? If it is, I'm moving to Chelsea. Halli B ( talk) 21:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Given the recent spate of IP vandalism to templates which don't qualify for protection as "high-risk" yet still affect high-profile pages, I propose semi-protecting the entire template namespace. It has no real downside - the very few constructive IP edits to templates can be done via {{ editprotected}} - and will stop most of this inane template vandalism.
Thoughts? Daniel ( talk) 06:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
We're currently averaging about 30-40 complaints per day on OTRS relating to vandalism to templates, in particular the one with the giant highlight text which covers the article title and the edit tab. I think the previous consensus needs to be reexamined. Daniel ( talk) 13:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 18:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
GFDL [4] states under 4A: "Use in the Title Page (and on the covers, if any) a title distinct from that of the Document, and from those of previous versions (which should, if there were any, be listed in the History section of the Document). You may use the same title as a previous version if the original publisher of that version gives permission."
All articles in MediaWiki based platforms have the same title in each version. Doesn't this conflict with the above section? or do the users of Wikipedia specificly give their permission in a local policy (Which, I might add, does not exist in the Hebrew Wikipedia; Should this be added to our policy?)?
Thanks, Yonidebest Ω Talk 08:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I have recently ran into a problem regarding a source for images. In my opinion, an Http:// source must be present on non-free media, including album covers, to provide valid proof that it is indeed a copy of the album art and not some kid's photoshop experiment. Image:Thescore.jpg is the image that started it. A lot of images claim that the source is the record label, but this one does not. On my talk page, the uploader lists her rationale for not including a valid source but I don't think that it's a good enough reason. (I'm half tempted to take it to IfD) So my question is this: If you upload an album cover, is it required to add that the image can be obtained from the label and/or provide the http:// source? Basically, if an image is uploaded and has no http:// source or no label present, I don't think it has a valid source. (unless it was scanned by the uploader) Undead Warrior ( talk) 13:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
As you are aware, a detailed review of the Requests for Adminship Process has been ongoing for some time. In June, 209 editors provided their impressions and thoughts on the current state of the process; these responses were reviewed and analyzed. The results, including a statistical analysis of responses, are now available for review at Wikipedia:RfA Review/Reflect. Based on the results of this analysis, we have prepared a new set of questions for editor input.
Unlike the last round of questions, this questionnaire is drawn specifically from the responses we received from editors, and is intended to generate recommendations for addressing the most common concerns about the RfA process. All editors are invited to participate by following the instructions at Wikipedia:RfA Review/Recommend. Editors who did not participate in the first questionnaire are welcome to participate in this phase - and all editors should feel free to answer as many or as few of the questions as you wish. Any input is valuable. Responses will be reviewed, and the most common responses will form the basis for possible changes to the RfA process itself.
On behalf of the editors who have helped with the project so far, thank you for your participation. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 18:20, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently I'm in a small dispute with Everyme over his redirecting his User:Everyme/user page into User. I removed it without notifying him; today he reverted back, citing that the cross-name redirect strictly applies from the mainspace to the user. I based my action on Angry Aspie's user page, in which the user tried redirecting to Asperger syndrome but was redirected. That train of thought follows that it makes people confused and access contributions if they're being led to another page. I maintain that the rule is designed to prevent the mixing of the two namespaces, regardless of whether main to user or user to main. Is my action in the spirit of the rule? hbdragon88 ( talk) 19:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Technically speaking...more research over at WP:SIG...it's required that a signature links to at least the user or user talk page, which Everyme does. Further, the guideline prohibits "disruptive links," like an autograph page. The only reason why I even did this to begin with was because I was pretty confused on why I got hit to User when clicking the apparent user page. That can be constructed as some disruption, though in practical reality I knew exactly how to get to the right page since I've been here for so long. hbdragon88 ( talk) 19:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, does anyone think there are any pages on Wikipedia that would exist were it not for the threat of trolls vandalising them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.164.115 ( talk) 20:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I see the [citation needed] template used in every manner of situation even ones that are highly inappropriate where the statements made are entirely uncontroversial and purely factual or descriptive in nature. These tend to be along the lines of: "The allies won the second world war[citation needed]" and are just annoyances to the editors of wikipedia who actually do the useful work of adding new material.
The presence of a fact template suggests that there is something wrong with a statement or that it is doubtful or controversial.
I think that fact templates should only be added when the factuality of a statement is seriously in doubt or of controversial nature. In order to deal with incidences of drive by tagging I think there should be a reqiurement of anyone who makes a [citation needed] tag must write in the talk section exactly what they think is wrong with a statement.
There is also the issue of things which may not be documented, though they might be generally held as being true. If I wrote that "Alice Springs in Australia is not inhabited by four legged martians[citation needed]" I doubt I'd be able to find a source anywhere on earth that will specifically agree with that fact. In a more practical sense, if in a mathematical context one were to write 2 + 2 = 4[citation needed], there is no mathematical proof for the truth of such a statement (a point made by Roger Penrose) but the statement is almost universally held as true and certainly not controversial or doubtful in any way. Some statements are really difficult or impossible to find references for, not because they are wrong or 'original research' but because of their nature. Although there are statements where references can be found (sometimes only in print) wiki editors are not paid and many useful contributors don't want to waste their own time looking up references and writing them in when the statements themselves are completely sound.
I don't understand the motivations of people who add fact tags in inappropriate places (although I sometimes question their intelligence or character in my own mind) but anyone who adds a fact tag should be required to make a note on the discussion page of the article saying why they thought it was necessary to have the tag in the first place. I think it's important to use common sense when tagging the fact tag because it can do more harm than good in some cases. The potential harm includes: discouraging editors, wasting editor's time and fostering unfounded doubts in the minds of readers. Sometimes the [citation needed] tag seems to be the wikipedia analog of vexatious litigation.
I hope that the policies can be changed to retain the advantages of this tag without all the downsides which I have just outlined. -- I ( talk) 16:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I wanted to know if Wikipedia has any policy regarding to the removal of hate links and comments from user pages? -- Kaaveh ( talk) 04:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi, can someone please comment on the {{ PD-Yugoslavia}}? Does this Agreement on succession issues really make the images owned by »SFRY State archives« public domain? Does it really apply to images like Image:Jakob Aljaž.jpg? -- Eleassar my talk 14:55, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
As the author is unknown it's impossible to know if more than 100 years have passed since his death. What about this PD and Agreement issue? -- Eleassar my talk 09:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
A few weeks ago i wrote the essay Wikipedia:The Free Encyclopedia. It tries to explain the meaning of "free" in "The Free Encyclopedia". Its main point is that "free" refers to the licensing of Wikipedia and it cites Jimbo to prove it.
I propose to promote it to be a policy. I found no other document that clearly presents Wikimedia Foundation's policy mission statement on the matter. The documents that would come the closest are Wikipedia:Copyright, which is too legalese and the third of the five pillars of Wikipedia, which is too short.
Here is a previous discussion about it:
Opinions are welcome. -- Amir E. Aharoni ( talk) 18:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
wikimedia:Mission statement? Mr. Z-man 19:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Just a note of change, comments are welcome. link. NonvocalScream ( talk) 21:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I've written down some thoughts about a proposal to limit the creation of new articles, while allowing anonymous users to create articles (which is not the case now). Your thoughts and comments are highly valued, see User:Plrk/On the creation of articles. Plrk ( talk) 21:23, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Should we move this discussion to the talk page? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I thought about the objections to my "required reading" proposal (supra) and have this addendum to my proposal. Before you laugh my original idea out of hand, please consider this rejoinder to your objections that there would be no way to know if the user had indeed read the manual of style even if he checked "I agree." I propose that a new user would be required to take (and of course pass) a small "test" of his MOS knowledge before his account be activated. The test would be ten to twenty questions drawn from the MOS with multiple choice answers. The correct answer would be the "best answer" out of the four options given and the prospective user would have to score a 80% (this is subject to debate of course) passing score on the MOS test before his account would be activated. I think a multiple choice objective test would be easier to grade than an essay test, although I agonized over this issue for a while before coming to my conclusion.
A sample question would be like:
Q. Which of the following article titles conforms to Manual of Style guidelines? (select the best answer):
Correct answer: D
And so on... Or we could divide the test into different sections, one dealing with MOS, and one dealing with WP:NOT, and whatever other guidelines and texts we wish a new user to be familiar with.
So that's how we know the user has indeed read the texts. Now that this objection has been answered I think its time to implement this policy. The next step is writing the questions -- and I am up to thirty-five different MOS questions and answers so far. Please help. Halli B ( talk) 22:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)