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There are no guidelines for deleting information and navigation boxes where they might be inappropriate.
This issue came up for me for the one at the bottom of Guinness World Records where the info box does not as one might expect provide navigation links to similar references books but the diverse products owned by the Jim Pattison Group. It does not seem encyclopedic appropriate information since the ownership of such groups is temporary - Jim Pattison Group bought the Guinness world records brand in early 2008, before then had been owned by several different companies. I have put a discussion on the talk page.
But what is appropriate and not here? Looking around there are a number of so and so company group info boxes that group articles by who owns what products-- it strikes me as backdoor company promotion by their PR agents but I cannot find any particularly relevant guidance over this issue.-- LittleHow ( talk) 17:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm concerned about an aspect of WP:VERIFY that could have what I believe are absurd consequences. Consider the following hypothetical:
Editor A adds text to an article, which reads: "All dogs are mammals. All poodles are dogs. All poodles are mammals." Editor B does not dispute sentences 1 or 2, but challenges 3 and adds "citation needed" to it. Editor A objects, noting that 3 follows logically from 1 and 2. Editor B disagrees, saying the deduction is not obvious to him and cites WP:VERIFY to justify the tag. Eventually, perhaps, Editor B could even use WP:DELETE to justify blanking the text.
I realize there are dispute resolution remedies for this situation, but I'm concerned about the policy. It states flatly: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source..." It seems to me this is too broad and simplistic. As written, someone can demand a fact tag for any statement, and the mere fact that the statement was challenged satisfies the policy's criterion. The burden is then on the original author to find a reliable source. In the hypothetical I've described, I believe that burden is unfair: Editor B should, instead, be obliged to show that the logic is invalid.
Is there another policy that moderates WP:VERIFY in a way that suits this situation? What policy-related advice would you give Editor A? Therealdp ( talk) 12:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, in actual practice it's unlikely a case would be as straightforward as my example. It might be possible to "boil it down" to an abstracted, more obvious version (like mine), but Editor B would likely claim the two cases aren't equivalent and could throw a WP:VERIFY flag against the boiling process! A problem I see with both of these suggestions is that those policies are very broad and can be used to justify nearly any deviation. Seems to me WP:VERIFY is implicitly a more "fundamental" policy in Wikipedia, so it would win out. Furthermore, WP:COMMON is subjective -- Editors A and B would probably deadlock over whether it applies. Therealdp ( talk) 15:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Lots of people only think their conclusions follow from indisputable logic. We need to have reliable sources for anything that comes under dispute like that. If it is as undeniably obvious and logical as claimed, then there should be no problems finding a reliable source demonstrating that. If no such source exists, it'd be odd to suggest that something so clear could somehow not have been missed everything -- either it's not notable or it's not uncontroversial. DreamGuy ( talk) 16:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:When to cite had some sensible guidance written by the FA director a while ago - it struggled to get consensus as a policy I seem to remember. --
Joopercoopers (
talk) 16:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)I was unaware of WP:SYNTHESIS -- thanks for educating me. I have some heartburn with it, but it addresses the issue I raised directly and is stated clearly. Although When to cite provides sensible guidance for dealing with simple claims, I believe WP:SYNTHESIS is the more relevant policy for the case I described. Therealdp ( talk) 16:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
WP:V is not the same as WP:CITE. If an editor were silly enough to question a statement such as "all poodles are mammals", using WP:V would not serve as a useful crutch in his case. Rather, they would only draw attention to themselves (very likely the point), and should they choose to repeatedly re-insert a fact or citation needed tag (likely against consensus), they'd probably end up blocked for disruption. In short, Wikipedia's guidelines do not allow for someone to play stupid and hide behind the "letter of the law", because we recognize that such a strategy is extremely stupid. Reso lute 03:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
This is a pointer to a discussion about the meaning and application of a section in WP:POLICY. - Dank ( push to talk) 15:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Policy would suggest that Wikipedia is not a travel guide, but there is some debate as to whether settlements are entitled to their own standalone article, even if there isn't veriable evidence that they are notable, or sometimes that there is any coverage of them at all. There is a debate along these lines at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Theba, Arizona.
Is now the time to recognise that Wikipedia should have its own geographic Wiki along the lines of Wikitravel, in the same way that Wikispecies has to resolve the conflict between policy and practice?
Or should be uphold WP:NOTTRAVEL and dismiss the arguement that all lcoations are entitled to a standalone article by default? -- Gavin Collins ( talk| contribs) 16:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Many people are under the assumption that there is consensus that any place listed in a geographic database is inherently notable and merits a stand-alone article. As far as I know, there is no formal guideline regarding that and previous attempts at trying to formally codify it have all failed. The only reason some of the place articles survive AFD is because it only takes one person to create and a consensus to delete. The fact that many survive AFD does not indicate there is a consensus to have individual articles about each and every named locality. The vast majority of these are better presented in gazetteer form as a suitably grouped table rather than as individual articles. -- Polaron | Talk 17:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The above referenced AfD should provide ample evidence of my position on the matter; a place, just because it exists, should not automatically be entitled to a standalone article. Polaron is right in my opinion in his statement that a large majority of these "locations" would be a better fit for an appearance in a list-type article rather than by themselves. Many of these places will never exist beyond a sub-stub, and much of the sourced information they contain are rather contrived efforts at satisfying WP:V. Take the listed example : the best we could come up with is that it exists, there is a mine nearby, and once upon a time there was a train stop there. This clearly would fail our general notability guidelines but these types of articles manage to survive because of a nebulous "precedent" that they are notable in and of themselves. I personally do not find this a satisfactory solution, and would love to see some kind of formal solution take its place. Sher eth 17:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Agree with the above: every settlement should be listed in WP as to allow them to be valid search terms with geodata in a table, but only should have an article when there's more than "this place exists" information is available. -- MASEM ( t) 18:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Gavin, the question you are using in the heading is loaded and misleading. Everyone knows that policy is that Wikipedia is not a travel guide, and that articles recommending and evaluating hotels, restaurants, and giving advice on how to "get in" and how to "stay safe" are inappropriate for Wikipedia. So please don't insinuate that. The fact that virtually all all AFDs on verifiable settlements wind up being overwhelmingly kept has nothing to do with the community being ignorant of policy or wanting to turn Wikipedia into Wikitravel. It has to do with that people think that real and verifiable settlements belong in an encyclopedia, most likely because human and political geography is a staple of any traditional encyclopedia. This has been discussed several times over, so please stop beating the dead horse. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
NE2's response was short but IMHO it is right on point.-- Cube lurker ( talk) 20:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with having a page on a verifiable location. I often look up a location by checking out the WP page on it. Sure, a small place like Mahomet, Illinois may not be as notable as Chicago, Illinois, but what if I *wanted* to know about the place/location? What is then wrong with listing the place's location, and other bits and pieces of info about the place? This is not the same as vanity biographies ... -- Ragib ( talk) 20:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm working a village in Illinois up to FA status. It does not have significant media coverage, is not a capital (or even a city, for that matter), and is only truly notable for its school which most out-of-staters have not heard of. Does this mean that this article, which is currently an FAC, should be removed, its name filed away into a gazetteer, or deleted entirely? Do we want to backtrack? Other cities like Chetwynd are already FA. Should the Chetwynd article be removed, its name filed away into a long list? Sure, I don't have any WP:'s to back me up, but it just seems a little counterproductive to me. -- Starstriker7( Talk) 01:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia should list every settlement as if it were a encyclopedia. Basic information about towns (small or otherwise) are easy enough to reference and give a reader a starting point. RxS ( talk) 01:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The above comments, the issue with fiction, and the current bilateral relationship cases all seem to point to possible way to resolve a lot of issues w.r.t to notability and standalone articles.
Would it be worthwhile to say that what most editors are looking for in the criteria for a stand-alone article is the potential to be able to describe the article's topic in a manner that
In other words, if we were to define this mystical "encycolopedic" article quality along the liens of the above, then we'd have a bit more to work with to resolve some of these issues. For example, notability and its subguidelines would be one or other possible qualifications for when something should get a standalone articles, as the presence of secondary sources will meet the last two points above. In the parent discussion, talk of putting lists of settlements with minimal sourcing would help to meet making the list more accessible to the general reader (as a gazetteer) though itself may not be notable.
(I'm simply tossing this out as a suggestion, I have no idea how well it will take). -- MASEM ( t) 21:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Agree with the growing consensus above that named settlements should not automatically be considered notable enough for separate articles and aggregated list/tables are a better location for many less notable places. A related discussion is at WT:CITIES#Systematic inclusion of GNIS unincorporated communities. -- mav ( talk) 00:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Named settlements are inherently notable as demonstrated by the fact that there has been no consensus to delete them. When there is no consensus to delete things, the default is keep. This has been shown time and again. Not only with Theba, Arizona, but numerous other precedents. I agree that WP:V is required, but once an inhabited has been verified - not a hoax - then it merits inclusion. WP:NOT#PAPER. Usually, without much effort and using on-line sources, one can come up with multiple sources for most places within a relative short time (during the period of an AFD debate, e.g.) What causes disruption is the nomination of geographic articles by editors failing WP:BEFORE. It is this disruption that causes drama and the willy-nilly default to what passes as WP:GNG that applies to the minorly notable people would sweep its inclusion for all geographic articles. Carlossuarez46 ( talk) 01:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
← It seems to me that GNIS already exists. It does not need to be duplicated. I mean articles could be created by a script using data at sites such as GNIS or the census. Is that what we want now. I'm an inclusionist but articles need to be of interest. Some of the early articles that were based on census data where good if increasing article count was the objective. Such articles are dry. I have noted several instances where GNIS classifies a location as a populated place when in fact the population is zero. (forgot to sign, sorry) -- droll [chat] 14:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Masem: I would subscribe to your opening statement of what should, minimally, be considered encyclopedic, but these are, really, signs of basic editing skills, that cannot be expressed in strict legalese delete/keep guideline. Perhaps they belong to Start/B-class grading scheme, but not inclusion/deletion. The gray area between DB:NOCONTEXT and passing FAR is too wide to be described in a formal way. Our understanding of what a "nice article" is should not influence inclusion/deletion policies - no article deserves deletion simply because the lead is written in substandard prose, and no proposed deletion should be judged to keep simply because its lead looks nice. After all, prose can change rapidly while the subject (usually) stays the same. NVO ( talk) 04:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User_page_indexing.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A discussion has come up which should have wider attention.
google indexes user pages, I think that it would be appropriate to ensure that user pages are not indexed by google. What say ye?
Unomi (
talk) 06:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Userspace pages should not be indexed by search engines, nor downloaded by mirrors. It is public content, but it is in a meaningful sense internal to Wikipedia. Now that WP search is good enough, there's no reason for these pages to be any more public than necessary. Disembrangler ( talk) 11:59, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Per Anomie's explanation, I'll switch to oppose. Their doesn't seem to be significant reasoning behind the change; the same principle can be applied to everything in the Wikipedia name space, but that has helped me to find a large number of essays (when Wikipedia's internal search was insufficient). To sum up my thoughts, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. blurred peace ☮ 12:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
As I've said at similar previous proposals, I believe openness generally benefits us and fits in with the "free encyclopedia" ethos. For that reason, I prefer that our "internal" content remain publicly accessible, searchable, etc., except where there is a strong case for actual harm. The presence of some spammy pages in userspace does not rise to the level of significant harm in my opinion. Dragons flight ( talk) 20:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I think this is one of these things which has enormous policy inertia. Imagine if the original situation were noindexing (say, software default was noindexing, and had to be explicitly turned on for each namespace), and now the community was discussing whether to index userpages. Can't see that happening, and apparently we can't get agreement to go the other way either. Disembrangler ( talk) 20:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: A related discussion is occuring at Wikipedia talk:Search engine indexing#Strongly support noindexing of "user" and "user talk". Since that's a dedicated page (and Village pump discussions frequently get lost in the shuffle), this discussion should probably be merged there. Rossami (talk) 12:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I also put an RFC here: WP:Soap and googling User pages. How do you merge all this into the Search engine indexing discussion? I already moved the RFC once from my talk page to WP:Soap Talk page. ?? -- stmrlbs| talk 17:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Support per Orange Mike... the way things are now there is no way that user pages should be indexed... 70.71.22.45 ( talk) 17:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User_page_indexing.
During recent emergencies i.e. Hurricane Katrina and the recent DC train accident, there's been a question over for a short period of time afterward to give information to the public on relevant wiki pages. This was created for the DC train accident:
Usually there is a big kerfuffle over whether this is appropriate. I think it is and would be extremely useful.-- The lorax ( talk) 17:25, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I think in such situations adding a notice of this kind may occasionally be the right thing to do. It's not what you would expect to see in an encyclopedia. But neither is a banner telling you that there are not enough reliable sources for an article and asking you to contribute them. Adding such a notice is formally against policy, but it's not a big deal. I think it can be absolutely OK if there is a temporary consensus to keep such a notice, and it would often be wrong to insist too strongly that it must be removed. It's like shooting down a passenger plane that is controlled by terrorists. In many jurisdictions it's illegal. And yet there is no need to create a law allowing it, and in fact it would be a mistake because such a law could be abused in surprising ways. It's the kind of thing where most people simply agree that it's fine to bend the rules. Hans Adler 19:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I personally see nothing wrong with it but I doubt people who have a loved one in a disaster are even on Wikipedia in the first place. They are most likely glued to the news on TV, at a news web site such as CNN of FOX or not even around a TV or computer but are instead at a hospital or coordinated area for family members. - ALLST✰R▼ echo wuz here 19:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
These kinds of things are not really what Wikipedia - or any encyclopedia - is for. I know that NOTNEWS is not entirely applicable here but it is the same sort of concept. It is not really our place to do it, and heaven forbid some sneaky vandals swap the phone number around and cause us some kind of grief. Sher eth 20:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
This idea was promoted before after some hurricane strikes or something more than a year ago, and considered not appropriate. WP is the last place you should be going for information on current events. If there is an article that is affected by such events, there is a current event template to indicate things are changings, but otherwise such temporary messages are not part of WP's purpose, despite the possible benefit. (It becomes a slippery slope that less critical current events start meriting such tags - eventually we're have a warning that J-Lo's been seen in public again on her WP page and to visit a given tabloid page to followup, if this type of information is not carefully restricted) -- MASEM ( t) 20:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps a parameter could be added on to the current events tag to display a sort of warning like this. I think NOTNEWS would apply to the content of the article, but not necessarily to discussion of the article or templates on the article. But then again we are an encyclopedia, not an advocacy organization, so I could see why people wouldn't want to give this sort of information out. Perhaps a link to a (protected) page for people affected by the article from the template would be of help? Or possibly a message on the article's talk page instead of the article itself. Them From Space 20:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
This is a violation of WP:NDA. ViperSnake151 Talk 23:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
No, we should not post such notices. We briefly allowed notices like this after one of the hurricanes in the US (not Katrina but one shortly after - my apologies but I don't remember exactly which). What we found were that our attempts to help were quickly hijacked by scammers and other con artists looking to steer victims to their faudulent sites. In time-sensitive situations like this, we have very few resources to find and then verify that the putative links or resources are valid. Yes, the scams were eventually discovered and taken down but it took time and we'll never know how many people fell for them until we did. In every case, the victim would have been better going directly to a controlled, authoritative website or information source.
This is one of the rare cases where our openness works against us.
Rossami
(talk) 12:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a news source. If anything, stick {{ wikinewshas}} (or something similar) in the appropriate place to point people to the wiki that actually is a news source. Anomie ⚔ 14:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
'Controversy' seems to be an overused term in articles, for things which are not really that controversial. Does anyone see what I'm saying? It's like almost every second big biographical article has a 'controversy' section in it, usually just based on a few small media reports. Can we stop doing this?-- Wutwatwot ( talk) 22:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Remove the word if there is no actual " controversy" documented. To be a "controversy," there must have been some contentious and prolonged public discussion on some point or issue. It's not enough to document that an incident happened that some might think worthy of criticism, like they made rude comments in public or got in trouble with the law or something. That doesn't establish a "controversy," even though that's often how where the word is used in WP articles. Being subject to, or worthy of criticism, is not the same as being controversial. It's really one of the worst and most overused weasel words on WP, at least as applied to biographies, because it's a implicitly pejorative word that typically has no substance behind it. Postdlf ( talk) 00:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Hear, hear. It's wiki-slang that crept into article content. Hopefully, notability per WP:N hasn't yet. I'm afraid the only solution is bold but correct and properly sourced changes to each individual article. Christian Bale cussed his camera man, it's a small fact, not controversy. Meanwhile, huge subjects of ongoing worldwide debate ( Arab–Israeli conflict) exist without invoking the fancy word. NVO ( talk) 08:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Can I use next albumcover in Summer Serenades page, because the picture are watermarked. I haven't founded any other picture that I can use-- Musamies ( talk) 13:24, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The Wikimedia Foundation has begun exploring ideas for enhancing the visibility of the donate button not only within the Wikimedia main skin but also on every page of every Wikimedia project. We hope that enhancement will enable us to better inform our public that we are dependent on their donations as we promote the free and open knowledge movement. For full description of project, please go here: m:Fundraising 2009/Donation buttons upgrade en Rand Montoya ( talk) 22:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
There's an RFC going on on whether or not article titles should be italicized. You can find it here. SharkD ( talk) 20:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The Centralized discussion page set up to decide on a comprehensive naming convention about Macedonia-related naming practices is now inviting comments on a number of competing proposals from the community. Please register your opinions on the RfC subpages 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
is there a guideline or essay that is essentially the opposite of WP:BITE? Something that editors, particularly new ones, can be pointed to to calm a discussion down and remind them that this is a collaborative encyclopedia and they need to be open to others editing their articles. Something that's a step down from WP:OWN?-- RadioFan ( talk) 11:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Why does Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia show Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia underlined for the MLA style but the syntax generated from Special:Cite shows it italicized? -- penubag ( talk) 11:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Works which are public domain in the US can be uploaded as free images to Wikipedia, but not to Wikimedia Commons (where the image needs to be PD in both the US and the image's country of origin if different). Why is there this discrepancy? Shouldn't the Wikimedia Foundation determine what is considered free/PD for all of their sites, rather than having such differences? Because of these policies, many images can be hosted as free images on Wikipedia but not on Wikimedia Commons. This is very confusing and I see no real reason for it.
Therefore, I propose that either A) Wikipedia change its copyright policies about this issue to be in line with Commons', or B) Commons change its copyright policies to match Wikipedia's. This latter would certainly be the easier of the two, but I would prefer the first one since Commons' policies respects the copyright of the image's original creator more than Wikipedia's current policies. Although legally the copyright in the country of origin might not matter, it seems unfair to the image creator for such a huge, free information resource to be distributing such images as "public domain" across the world. – Drilnoth ( T • C • L) 17:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
If we do change the rules the right way to do it IMO would be to make Commons more accepting of PD-US material rather than enwiki less accepting. We recently moved a bit in that direction by accepting PD-Art images over at Commons, regardless of local law. Haukur ( talk) 17:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Please see
WT:BLP#Can we put back the material that was removed?. It would be nice to get some resolution with this. - Dank (
push to talk) 18:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC) material now reinstated
(Dank beat me here, with the strikes above.) As a matter of security, my common response to finding two sections that are/were identical is to put them in one basket, and watch that basket! But nobody else really seems to remember how to <onlyinclude> subpages, even though that's in the software.... Therefore, to avoid textual drift,
put all our eggs in one basket, and watch that basket at
WP:BLP#Categories! I'll see what I can do about the parallel language at
WP:GRS#Sexuality, too.
--
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 00:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I recently posted a message at the misc board ( Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Wikipedia:WikiProject Citizendium Porting). It is about a Wikiproject dealing with importing content from Citizenium to WP. I'm not sure whether my post is at the right place, so I invite everybody who is interested to discuss the matter at the linked thread. Jakob.scholbach ( talk) 20:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I know there are clear guidelines about not capitalising the initial letters of conjunctions, prepositions and so on in album titles, but I can't find any similar guidelines covering band names. Most pages for bands (e.g. Noah and the Whale) seem to follow the same format, but is there an official policy somewhere that I just haven't been able to find? If not, should one be written? ~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 22:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Summary: Create subject pages which present information in a structured way so people can access information in a logical manner. Currently people unfamiliar with a topic will digress endlessly in defining terms they don't understand from page to page.
(If you are a serious person please skip the irrelevant details of the following first paragraph. In fact, the last two paragraphs are self explanatory.)
Dear Wikipedia,
I very much like your website and am currently working at creating an inhale-able or edible form of your website so I can learn information faster. Although I have had no success yet and have all sorts of health problems due to trying to encode information into 2-butoxyethanol molecules, I have reached another conclusion. This conclusion is a result of a problem I have had with the conventional reading process as presented by the summary. Let me explain:
Since I am not very well educated, while reading articles I often do not know what the terms within the article I am reading mean. This causes me to digress endlessly. For example, I may be interested in learning about alkaloids (to encode wikipedia information with a lipid substance). To understand an alkaloid I need to know what a secondary metabolic path is. When I click on that page I end up clicking on metabolism. To understand metabolism I click on science, etc. By the time I understand anything at all I forget what I was trying to learn to begin with.
My suggestion is that Wikipedia would serve best as encyclopedia as a structured encyclopedia. This could be accomplished in many ways. One way would be to allow editors to create their own subject pages. This would include a Subject Title, an introduction into the subject, the fundamentals of the subject, and would list existing and relevant wikipedia pages in a chosen order. An expert on immunology could start a subject on this topic, give an introduction by explaining how cells fight off diseases in the body, suggest that there are differences between B and T cells and Macrophages and what the difference between viruses and bacteria is. By making these fundamental distinctions, creating a structure and context in which all the elements of disease and the immune system come into play in a meaningful way, and noting similarities and differences between how the body fights viruses and bacteria infections, the links to existing pages become much more accessible.
This differs from current policy by emphasis on how a page of information on a subject is structured, namely making sure information on a single page follows a logical order from fundamental or simple concepts to detailed concepts. Information becomes more complicated the more you learn. In this way attempting to learn details is precarious like an upside down pyramid where the very many details on the top are dependent on relatively few basic ideas which the reader cannot necessarily find but are highly important. If one wants to learn some of the many complicated details on the top, one needs to know the base ideas at the bottom. The relevant base ideas are not explicit nor implicit in any given paper on detail however. In providing context and structure for learning details, Wikipedia subject pages would be essential in and instrumental to realizing the goal of an encyclopedia: making knowledge accessible to everyone.—Preceding unsigned comment added by InterestingUtencilProposalManNumber9 ( talk • contribs) 10:50, 29 June 2009
An RFC has been launched by five co-proposers to determine community support for:
All users are invited to inspect the proposal and to make their views known at the RFC. Tony (talk) 18:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, if something is subjective (not objective), then trying to make a guide or policy governing it is bureaucracy. I've been dealing with a guide that is designed to look like policy and couldn't be any more vague. The policy WP:BURO seems to prohibit this, but is not clear on how to deal with it. The few users who have agreed with me, seem to be outnumbered by the advocates who expanded the guide to the point of WP:CREEP. I've put out RFCs but they get closed too soon. The advocates for the guide are avoiding discussion by removing tags before the disputes are resolved and WP:POLLING as if they just want to run the clock out while they outnumber. It seems that it's mostly people who are admitting bias against the admitted perceived problem that are heavily involved in protecting the guide. It's hard to get a neutral yet critical examination of the guide. Which forum do I use to put this bureaucracy on trial by neutral users and administrators? Oicumayberight ( talk) 20:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I just observed that {{ prod}} includes the following statement about deprodding: "If this template is removed from the article and the removal was not vandalism, then do not replace it." Aside from the note on WP:CONTESTED that one may restore a PROD that's been replaced with a speedy tag, I've never before heard any way in which we could legitimately restore a prod tag. If you go down the AFD logs, you'll see plenty of discussions in which it is noted that the prod was removed without comment by some random person. Of course, removing a useful template is generally considered vandalism, so as this specifically isn't considered vandalism, what is? Nyttend ( talk) 21:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
An essay has been drafted per the consensus at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Notability and fiction. Hiding T 10:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Please see here. Cenarium ( talk) 01:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
In light of the ridiculous number of death hoaxes we've dealt with in the past week, I've commenced a draft policy about the reporting of these hoaxes on a user page. Please feel free to review and make comment. User:Manning Bartlett/Wikipedia:Deathhoax policy draft. Manning ( talk) 06:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I've never seen this template before.
Usually there's just a lock symbol. What's going on? Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Should the Manual of Style (dates and numbers) recognize 4,046.8564224 as an acceptable number format, and not accept 4046.8564224? Notice the former uses commas and gaps as digit separators in the same number, while the latter only uses gaps. The consensus formed will influence how number formatting templates will be coded. Please discuss at WT:MOSNUM#RfC: Acceptable number format?
I notice that Wikipedia names the alleged victim in both of Michael Jackson's child-molestation cases. Has there ever been a discussion as to whether this is appropriate? The First Amendment gives media the right to name alleged sexual-abuse victims, but it is the general policy of the American media not to name them unless they choose to go public with their names. The argument is that naming sexual-assault victims increases the likelihood that other victims will not come forward to report a crime, fearing their name will be splashed all over the papers. There is a good deal of debate in journalism circles about whether to publish the names of adults who accuse people of rape. But in this case, it's a double whammy -- we're not just talking about alleged sexual-assault victims but alleged child victims. We should really consider whether it's in the best interest of society to use their names just because we can. -- Mwalcoff ( talk) 03:45, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I think that links to someone's essays in a policy page inadmissible. A policy is a careful work of consensus of many editors. An essay is a personal opinion, not necessarily agreeable by many. If it contains useful parts, please move them into a policy or a guideline, or a FAQ, which are, unlike essays, under the heavy scrutiny of many. There are thousands of essays in wikipedia on each and every rule, and putting some of them into a policy is bad precedent. Inclusion someone's is violation of WP:NPOV and consensus-building. Novices may wrongly think that an essay is also part of policy. I know that in the past wikipedia was lax in its rules in many respects; inclusion of essays is one of the relicts wikipedia must get rid of. - Altenmann >t 17:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
(out) I dont think an outright ban on essays in policy pages makes sense. Essays can provide important information on how policies / guidelines can be interpreted and applied and how one policy interacts with and informs another policy/guideline. If a new essay or one that clearly does not have a large community consensus is listed within a policy page in a way that suggests it has more community support than it does - it should be removed, or edited until it does reflect consensus- but I see nothing inherrently incompatible about links from See Also. They need to be judged independantly and in context. -- The Red Pen of Doom 01:52, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm... Opinions, parables and anecdotes should not be linked/piped directly from the body text of an endorsed policy or guideline, but I don't oppose to piling them in "see also" bin. If the reader has reached that part of policy, he/she must be qualified enough to recognize essays as such. Yes, "see also" has very low inclusion standard, so be it. (P.S. Altenmann: I suspect that you actually place the policies themselves on a level higher than they hold.) NVO ( talk) 04:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I started this talk after I deleted a link to Wikipedia:Don't demolish the house while it's still being built from Wikipedia:Deletion policy and was reverted.
Now, please tell me:
- Altenmann >t 00:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
You are asking in the wrong place. Your change has been reverted, so the change did not have consensus. To really find out why, you should ask on Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy, or contact the reverter on their own user talk page.
The idea behind the essay should be clearly worded in the essay. Please participate in the consensus process by updating the essay if it is not clear enough.
Finally, you should also be really careful about experimenting on actual policy pages!
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 00:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
If you take nothing else from reading the responses to your post, you should take that the word you meant to use is underlies, and in another commonly used (and commonly abused) form, it is underlying (not underlining). Once you read this post, I suspect you will never make this mistake again, and I will have struck once again to rid the world of a grammar abomination (one person at a time). Now, I will don my cape, and be off, free once again to search out with my wagging finger sense, some good person toiling away at their keyboard, little suspecting that I am lurking, ready to pounce on them should they write "supposably" or "irregardless" or "maybe" when it is an event that may be happening (note that I do have a kryptonite, and I probably shouldn't reveal it, but I have to go into hibernation for about one month to remove the taint whenever anyone says "it's all good" within earshot.-- 162.83.162.35 ( talk) 02:47, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm now covering Category:Wikipedia conduct policies and Category:Wikipedia legal policies at WP:Update, which covers every subcat of CAT:POL except for one, Category:Wikipedia global policy. There are 52 pages in CAT:POL and 40 pages of global policy, almost all of them overlapping. Is there something that makes global policy pages special or ties them together? Could we do without the category? It would be nice to cover all the policy subcats at WP:LOP and WP:Update, but I'm just not seeing the point. - Dank ( push to talk) 04:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
So, apparently Wikipedia is not censored except when and how Jimbo says it's censored. Do I have that about right? Mark Shaw ( talk) 17:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I doubt Wikipedia will do this for other victims of Kidnapping, and I am well aware we have not done so in the past. This was a pure cave to the disreputable behavior of the NYT - they were compromising their duty as a news agency (they would have reported any other run-of-the-mill kidnapping of an American Citizen, especially a civilian) That Jimbo further defames at least one reliable source (Pajhwok Afghan News) is just icing. Some of our articles are actually killing people, every day ( Homeopathy, which is innefective for treating anything, but try to find that in our article) - yet Jimbo does nothing to fix that. No, we're complicit in the coverup, which I guess is fine, but we should at least admit we'll cover things up when important or powerful people ask us to. Hipocrite ( talk) 18:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
If you look at the Homeopathy article, it states clearly: "Claims of homeopathy's efficacy beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence." I would recommend that people who believe that holding back vital information about physical people publish names and addresses of their relatives, so they can be hunted down and killed by terrorists. Knowingly endangering someone's life is most likely a crime in most jurisdictions, for very good reasons. 213.39.224.86 ( talk) 22:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Let me add to my prior post. Are you willing to die, right now, to fight what you consider censorship? If so, fine. But you have no issues with endangering innocent people's lives who cannot voluntarily take the decision themselves. Even if the article about homeopathy claimed that homeopathy could heal things, it would not directly threaten the life of someone. If you are stupid enough to bet your life on homeopathy, fine. But don't blame Wikipedia. You have a brain, the article gives you enough information to start thinking about it. But knowingly posting material that might endanger someone's life under the guise of "The truth" or "Everybody has a right to know" or "information must be free" disqualifies the author from membership in the human race. This is philosophy on such a basic level that I wonder why we even have to have this discussion. Grow up. 213.39.224.86 ( talk) 22:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
IMHO any censorship that lasts more than a day or two should be done by a person or committee invested with that power, and that person or committee should be accountable, directly or indirectly, to the community. We already have WP:OFFICE with explicitly authority to take actions when legally necessary to protect the foundation, which is likely not the case here. I'm not sure if its explicit or implicit, but WP:ARBCOM is probably the closest thing we have to a committee that can impose special interpretations of WP:BLP binding on the whole community. Both of those groups are accountable to the community: Those with the power to make OFFICE actions are accountable to the trustees, who are in turn elected. ARBCOM members are de facto elected, providing accountability. In either case, this would've been much better if it had been "the WP Office" or "Arbcom" doing the censoring and not one man. Of course, once the need for censorship is over, all cards should be put on the table as soon as it is safe to do so. This will allow the community to discuss the action and either endorse it by consensus, repudiate it by consensus, or take no action either by consensus or due to lack of one. Individual trustees and arbcom members may be "held accountable," if that is the right word, should they stand for re-election. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 00:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, sice now blackout every kidnapping. I suggest to censore articles about drugs, that will probably save lives too. 89.61.138.136 ( talk) 00:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
If it helps any, people might wish to read the article now that I've almost completely rewritten it from scratch - see David S. Rohde. -- ChrisO ( talk) 01:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Would it be that hard in the future to just lock these things and say WP:OFFICE? Because regardless of the intent (which was noble, obviously), we end up with the same "old boys club" and behind the scenes manipulation that has given us a black eye before. How many other admin actions have been taken on behalf of Mr. Wales? How can we ever know? I guess we are forced to trust Jimbo when he says that this sort of thing is exceedingly rare and only for "good" purposes...but that is fairly unappetizing. In the future, just sysop a foundation employee, protect the page, leave a remark that it was protected as an office action and be done with it. It's not like someone couldn't have looked in the logs of the page to discover what was being left out. Protonk ( talk) 01:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Personally speaking, while I don't disagree per se with the decision of Wikipedia's Benevolent dictatorship, both the manner in which it was reached and carried out leave a very bad taste in my mouth. A policy that approaches the issue rationally and defines guidelines and expectations consistent with Wikipedia's mission and ethical imperative is possible. The deletion of legitimately sourced annotations with false claims about their veracity is worthy of condemnation, not praise. 65.189.152.19 ( talk) 21:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm displeased that there is still the official claim that "Wikipedia is not censored". It was obvious to me after the previous case of removing photos from the autofellatio article that a commitment to non-censorship was indeed lacking. This case merely reinforces that conclusion. I really think the claim should stop being made as it just creates confusion. For example, there was lots of brouhaha over images of Muhammad. Some were saying that the inclusion of the images would endanger people, as, indeed, people were being killed and injured because of reactions to other publications of such images. Many newspapers did indeed self-censor on this issue, accepting that reasoning. These calls for censorship were answered with "Wikipedia IS NOT CENSORED!" Now, the censorship of Wikipedia is justified with exactly what those calling for the censorship of the Muhammad images said: "Life itself was in danger!" How will such contradictions continue to be maintained? -- Atethnekos ( talk) 02:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
We are moral beings with not just a capability, but a responsibility, to make judgments about what is best and to weigh various and sometimes competing principles and virtues. Non-censorship is a noble cause, so is life, and we value them both. It is not always clear when or how we can always apply these values to achieve the greater good. We just have to do our best. In this case, a decision was made to violate a principle, and it worked out well. Consider that good results were also achieved when Martin Luther King decided to violate the principle of obeying the law. Good results were achieved George Washington et al. violated their principle loyalty to their king. That doesn't mean everyone should discard loyalty or lawfulness, such behavior would lead to chaos and destruction. Knowing how to balance objectives to achieve greater good and serve God's purposes is a form of wisdom, and is not easily achieved. In this case, I think Mr. Wales and the editors who helped did right. Readin ( talk) 03:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps the criterion is whether there is danger to specific individuals, not just general categories of people. All sorts of things cause the latter. Eg news reports of events in the Middle East & terrorism cause violence against Jews & Muslims. Gandhi's preaching of non-violent resistance caused riots in India & he was imprisoned for sedition as a consequence. Jack Straw's criticism of veils caused violence against Muslims. &c. Does anyone suggest these things be banned?
On the other hand, there was an interesting case in America which went to the Supreme Court, I think. An anti-abortion group published on the internet a list of names & addresses of doctors involved in abortions. That was all. They didn't advocate violence. Nevertheless, the Court ruled that this was an exception to freedom of speech because of the obvious danger to specific individuals, at least one such doctor already having been assassinated. Peter jackson ( talk) 09:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The article was simply embargoed until Rohde was safe. It happens in journalism, marketing and PR all the time- why should Wikipedia (as a perfect example of Web2.0 and New Media) be any different? The New York Times simply asked Jim Wales to lock the article until such time as Rohde was safe.
There have been several examples of stories being embargoed for reasons of safety. Prince Harry's tour of duty in Afghanistan one example. The British press agreed to the blackout and was successful until it was leaked by The Drudge Report, whereupon the prince was withdrawn from theatre for his safety and that of his fellow soldiers. [4]). Only in the last few days, Australian Deputy Prime Minister's visited troops in Iraq. Her intinerary was reported by The Age in contravention of press convention to not to do so. They recently published an apology and retraction when reports of Gillard's trip were made public before she arrived, [5])
My general point is that journalists and newspapers have ethical practice on such matters. Journalists and communications professionals study these matters in ethics courses during their tertiary study. Its time for us as Wikipedia contributors to acknowledge that we are New Media journalists and that isn't just about being right or being right first. We make Wikipedia the influential source that it is, but we need to do so ethically and responsibly otherwise we're no better than the likes of Drudge or Perez Hilton.
On a slightly different note, I think we also need to be careful about the assertion of free speech. I'd wager the legislation around free speech, privacy and defamation varies from country to country, and I'd suggest its up to each wikipedian to understand their own legal context.
Paul Roberton
Paul Roberton ( talk) 10:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Interpolation of the above remarks has confused the context of the following, which was a response to Paul's last remark. Peter jackson ( talk) 09:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
(out of sequence in edit conflict; response to immediately preceding remarks, which the next posting isn't) Of course it varies. Some countries don't have free speech at all. Some countries have privacy laws, others don't. England (not sure about Scotland) has in theory a very strict libel law, where it's up to the publisher to provide justification rather than the plaintiff to prove the reverse, and belief in the truth of the statements is not a defence. In practice this is largely cancelled by the fact that you have to be pretty rich to sue for libel. The US Supreme Court has banned gagging orders except in blatant cases of national security, but they're common in Britain & elsewhere. &c &c
What I'm not clear about is how this affects Wikipedia. It's based in Florida but supplied to most of the world. Does it have to abide by everybody's laws? This may be particularly relevant to copyright, where the European Union has a longer period than (practically) everyone else, while the US often seems to have shorter ones. Peter jackson ( talk) 11:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Wow. This "I'll gladly sacrifice X strangers" attitude is depressing. HavocXphere ( talk) 13:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I am very frightened by this censorship. If something this (relatively) unimportant can be kept hidden for so long, we obviously cannot trust that it won't happen again. It may even be happening right now, and we wouldn't know about it. All it takes is that someone convince a single individual (Jimbo). Thus we cannot trust Wikipedia, or, by extension, Wikinews, to give us an impartial, uncensored world view. I call on everyone to abandon these projects in favor of something uncontrollable, perhaps distributed. 83.250.203.177 ( talk) 14:31, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Human life is put at risk every day by reporting, is it not? Does Wikipedia have a policy of not reporting information that may put someone's life at risk? If so, who evaluates that risk? What standards do they apply, if any? Is there a process to appeal decisions or correct mistakes? Reporting on the acts of a dictatorial government, for example, could reasonably be argued to put the lives of the regime members at risk. Should we sanitize Wikipedia of all that information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.22.103.251 ( talk) 15:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Paul Roberton Paul Roberton ( talk) 02:49, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales has been quoted, in the MSM, as saying that the good faith wikipedia contributors who were not made privy to covert plan to IAR and suppress this material were not referencing WP:RS. WP:AGF -- perhaps Jimbo's involvement with the supression was early, and the references which easily passed WP:RS hadn't been supplied.
I went back, and checked, to see what sources they referenced. Some of the sources those good faith contributors cited weren't WP:RS, but at least three publications they cited were publications I have had no reservations citing before. In particular, the English language service of Al Jazeera is extremely reliable. I have probably referenced their articles well over one hundred times over the last four years, and I have never regretted it -- never come to think afterwards -- "that Al Jazeera article steered me wrong." Geo Swan ( talk) 14:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I think a large amount of hot air and ad hominems are being thrown about above regarding if the actions taken on the David Rohde article were "right" or "wrong". I think that's the wrong discussion to have. The actions have been taken, the event is over, and I don't think that anyone is arguing against including the kidnapping info in the David Rhode page from now on.
I think a better question is how this event has exposed potential weaknesses in the Wikipedia process. Contrary to assertions above, this is not a one-off, sui generis event. Over 200 foreigners have been kidnapped in Iraq since April 2004, with dozens more in Afganistan. And that doesn't include other kidnapping events around the world (like the Maersk Alabama). Or other cases where reasonable arguments can be made that information hiding might protect the well-being of some third party (e.g. where you normally have media blackouts: head of state travel schedules, rape victims' and child criminals' names, etc.). If we argue that information hiding was justified in the Rhode case, what is the policy about information hiding in other cases? How do we make that determination? Where's the line, or if there isn't a clear line, who's the line judge? Which cases get action, and to what extent does the action occur? "When inclusion of material on Wikipedia may pose a credible threat to human life, such material shall be removed from Wikipedia, until such time as there is no longer a threat. The Wikimedia Foundation staff, in consultation with its lawyers, will be the final arbiter of such cases." may be an acceptable policy, but Wikipedia should have a policy, and it should be at least nominally accepted by the Wikipedia community. Without a clear policy, we have the case we have now, where David Rohde is somehow special enough to warrant a blackout, but the other 300+ hostages somehow aren't. The arbitrariness and secrecy with which this action was taken does nothing but engender resentment and suspicion ("Jimmy Wales and some friends use their administrator powers to suppress information on Wikipedia, even though there isn't any clear policy to do so" - you can see how this sounds a lot like a cabal).
Make a clear policy for these general situations ("Party X will probably be harmed in way Y by inclusion of information on Wikipedia") and get a consensus for it from the general Wikipedia. -- 128.104.112.62 ( talk) 17:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The Canadian diplomat Robert Fowler's kidnapping was reported both in WP and the NY Times, so it seems that some news trumps the risk to lives, and other lives trump journalism's duty to report the news. For us mere readers of WP and the NYT, reliability of both organizations as a reliable source of news is compromised. For the sake of credibility, the protected page banner should probably have another version that states a page is temporarily being protected at the request of an outside source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.140.66.30 ( talk) 20:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The account of Rohde's kidnapping has been cut and pasted into Kidnapping of David Rohde. That article doesn't really explain why the NYTimes wanted a blackout beyond quoting:
"From the early days of this ordeal, the prevailing view among David’s family, experts in kidnapping cases, officials of several government and others we consulted was that going public could increase the danger. We decided to respect that advice..."
I think the article on the kidnapping would really benefit from a better explanation of the reasoning behind the blackout than "experts told us so".
I think the NYTimes should have offered those wikipedia insiders a better explanation than that. And, now that the incident is over, the explanation that caused several key policies to be ignored should be fully and clearly laid out for the rest of the community. Geo Swan ( talk) 18:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
"Sorry, other publications like yours all have a hierarchical authority pyramid, with a small group of senior decision makers, who can reach a decision, and impose it on all their subordinates. But the wikipedia depends on the efforts of a large number of volunteers. I don't believe the wikipedia has a small group of decision makers who have the authority to impose a secret publication ban on everyone else."
Do you have a particular question? To be clear, if there's something you want to know, please ask, don't speculate.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 00:08, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I have some questions:
The problem with this sort of suppression is that we have no idea what else is being swept under the rug. It would help me a lot if you could come clean about any other similar actions and plans for future actions. Otherwise, It is just me and my imagination, which is probably worse than the truth. 128.97.68.15 ( talk) 21:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I second these questions and add another two:
I'll be happy to get an answer from you, Mr. Wales. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.217.15.245 ( talk) 14:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
A little update on the matter (I'm still waiting for the answers, Mr. Wales...): so it turned out that there wasn't a LIFE at stake, it was a matter of MONEY. And that was known from the beginning, as the so-called NYT counterterrorism experts never believed that Rohde's life was at stake. That brings the whole censorship incident up to a very disgraceful and discreditable level... So sad... (Still waiting, Mr. Wales, still waiting...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.217.15.245 ( talk) 09:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the recent discussion, I have made a draft proposal at Wikipedia:News suppression.
The purpose is to codify that Jimbo and other administrators did the right thing keeping the kidnapping of David Rohde out of his Wikipedia article. It also aims to define when something should be kept out of Wikipedia, even if it is covered in a few reliable sources. There can be no absolute rules for these situations, but some basic principles.
Some would say that we need no rule for this as we have IAR. However, Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is about ignoring rules when they prevent you from improving the encyclopedia. The reason to suppress the news of David Rohde's kidnapping is not mainly to improve Wikipedia, but to protect Rohde.
It is still a draft, comments are welcome. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 17:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
How about a draft for more democracy & accountability, less BDFL, and less admins? Proper guidelines on freedom of expression on the platform would be great as well. in proper journalism, there is no such thing as "protecting lives", whatever the agenda may or may not be. It's about getting the truth out. Pnd ( talk) 18:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Look, I don't really care that an article was protected out of the good faith believe that it would stop harm from coming to a human being. I'm GLAD that Mr. Rohde was rescued and that nothing untoward came from this. I have NO PROBLEM with the foundation being approached by an organization in good faith making a similar request again. Just please, please, PLEASE don't do it in the same manner that has brought scrutiny and shame to the 'pedia before. We have enough conspiracies (and reasonable allegations) around a "cabal" of editors who communicate in secret, take orders from jimbo and don't acknowledge it. All we have to do in the future is just sysop a foundation employee, protect the article and leave a note in the history that it was protected for office reasons. This avoids the subterfuge (totally unnecessary, btw, though I understand why jimbo wouldn't want to protect it), avoids the implication of dealing under the table and offers a simple solution to any problem like this in the future. If we aren't willing at least to demand that from jimbo/wmf, then we have become pretty supine.
As for the rest of the complaints...don't bother. there is no right to free speech here (and there shouldn't be). This wasn't some act of rank censorship which needs to be railed about for weeks. We don't need yet another policy page on the subject (which everyone will ignore in the future). We just need a promise from Jimbo and the WMF that this encyclopedia will be treated like the multi-million dollar non-profit that it is, not some fiefdom. Please just give some thought to responding to situations like this in an expeditious but circumscribed fashion. Protonk ( talk) 07:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
A lot of people bumping into trees here without seeing the forest. Those who want to do their business in secrecy will in fact be ruthlessly exposed by those who understand that free and open communication is the greater value. Even if this had been about one man's life (which it never was), secrecy and censorship would have been by far the greater harm. Shame on those who think of themselves as editors, if they actually desire to make secrets. It won't work. This is but part of the larger internet, where they now stand exposed and censured by all. 68.178.59.178 ( talk) 15:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps it is not well known that Wikipedia does, in exceptional circumstances, remove content from articles, or protect them so that content cannot be added. However, this has been a standard but rare practice for at least several years now. I view it as part of the underlying pragmatism of WP. Moreover, the well-documented WP:OFFICE procedure was invented for exactly this sort of purpose, and it is an unwritten but well-known fact that WP:OTRS is also used to quietly resolve issues where a drawn-out discussion onwiki is not desirable. I would guess that WP:OFFICE was not used in this instance because it would draw unwanted light to the page, but an OTRS ticket number was eventually placed in the protection log. This is, again, a reflection of the pragmatic approach to difficult situations that has traditionally been employed on WP. Those who favor rigid idealism in any area of WP are likely to find themselves disappointed. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 19:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
"These are removals of questionable or illegal Wikimedia content following complaints.
I don't really have a problem with the censorship, I guess. Sometimes freedom of speech can be taken too far, and in any case WP isn't really Public: it's Jimbo's site, and he can do what he likes. But his statement "No Wikipedia rules were bent or broken in any way" is patently false. At a minimum, the WP:Meat and WP:3RR rules were broken. Probably a few others were at least bent. Jimbo should take responsibility and tell the truth, which is that WP is his website and he can break the rules if he wants to, and in this case he felt more than justified in doing so. Webbbbbbber ( talk) 20:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Are other websites permitted to use our logo for any reason other than being informative, etc., as we use companies' logos? http://www.wirtland.com is currently displaying our logo in the top left corner of its front page. This website has been associating itself somewhat with Wikipedia: some of its members wrote an article about it that was taken to AFD, ending with no consensus, and now the article has been tagged as a copyvio of their website. In short — it seems to be violating the Wikimedia Foundation's trademarked Wikipedia logo. Please note that, while I voted to delete at AFD, I'm not trying to use this as an excuse for deletion (otherwise I, as an admin, would have already deleted it as a copyvio); I'm simply posting here because I don't know where else to report a WMF trademark violation. Nyttend ( talk) 01:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately; the icons/images in user warning templates ({{ uw-vandalism3}}, {{ uw-3rr}}, etc) are highly unnecessary, and rather unprofessional. As such I propose they be removed. Not sure whether or not this has been discussed before, though. Thoughts? – Juliancolton | Talk 17:52, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
←See Wikipedia:The_motivation_of_a_vandal (linked from WP:VAN) and WP:DFTT. Big flashy warning signs are exactly what vandals crave, they're insulting to good-faith editors, and all those IP talk pages with a long string of flashy warnings and no clear evidence (to the vandals) that anything was done make us look silly. I think we can find a way to label for easy reading and break up the text (objections raised above) with some kind of simple, color-coded icons that don't feed the vandals. - Dank ( push to talk) 00:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
A picture is worth a thousand words, and nothing says "you need to STOP right now" better than those pictures. Plus it helps to distinguish different warnings from one another, instead of leaving a wall of text after multiple warnings. Grand master ka 04:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed something a bit odd and was wondering if someone could help.
Chinese wikipedia is zh.wikipedia.org, which makes sense (Zhong), but the Japanese wikipedia is ja.wikipedia.org. Shouldn't it be ni.wikipedia.org? 82.24.251.231 ( talk) 16:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I have just proposed a new policy: Wikipedia:Rehabilitation of offenders. -- Tango ( talk) 01:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I have placed a (long overdue) poll at Wikipedia:Civility/Poll on how the community stands on civility - mainly on how it is currently applied and enforced. Does teh community feel it is too strict, too lenient, or about right? And should we treat a user's own talk page any differently to elsewhere? Casliber ( talk · contribs) 06:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2009 July 6
I've nominated them for deletion, as they present an attractive nuisance. Editors may think it's a good idea to leave an unsourced or irrelevant category on an article, simply because these templates exist. Something like {{ fact}} for categories, except these present a large block of text.
In both cases, the category should be removed entirely – especially in the latter case. These have been used on biographical articles. In one case, the unsourced WP:GRS category has been left on the WP:BLP article for nearly two years! When I've removed the category, was reverted with the edit summary (revert: the fact that a maintenance item has been outstanding for a long time is not a reason to remove it.)
Please join the discussion.
--
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 12:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I've just posted Wikipedia:You don't have to win by arguing ( WP:NOWIN), an essay on Wikipedia dispute resolution. Feedback and edits are, of course, quite welcome. - GTBacchus( talk) 18:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Someone has been at work posting links in footnotes, after adding a sentence copied and pasted from one specific website. Apparently it is a site that generates text stating whether the homes in a neighborhood are above or below the typical prices of the city. Its probably plagiarism to copy the text into articles like that, and to me it looks like the goal is to promote the web site. There articles seem chosen at random.
But the edits aren't exactly harmful, and if the information is verifiable it could have some value, so I wasn't sure if I should undo them.-- Dbratland ( talk) 01:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Examiner.com is a blog. Generally speaking, it is not a reliable source. Examiner.com can only be used as a self-published source if the author is an established expert on the topic whose work in the relevent field has been published by a reliable third-party publication. Even then, caution should be exercised. For more information, please see the following discussions on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard:
The relevent policies and guidelines are:
A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 14:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Let me just second this. I've been seeing an increase in examiner.com links recently, and a lot of them are problematic, either because they're off-topic links to a pay-per-impression site, or because they misrepresent Examiner.com as reliable. In general, we should be avoiding them. — Gavia immer ( talk) 18:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
(moved from VP (proposals))
I've seen it a couple of times now: Editor A and Editor B get into an edit war, Editor A keeps reverting but explaining their position on the talk page, Editor B does nothing but revert. If they both go over 3RR, they both get a 24 hour timeout. If Editor B plays his cards right, he can play chicken with Editor A, knowing Editor A has to stop first, and thus Editor B has no incentive to stop edit warring and discuss. While both editors need to stop, I'm not sure these two editors should be treated equally.
BTW, I am not, any any way, condoning edit warring. Indeed, I think being allowed to make 4 reverts in 24 hours in a content dispute is too lenient. But first things first.
I propose a modification:
The same BLP/vandalism/banned badguy/etc. exemptions would apply.
This is good not because this allows the person using the talk page to "win" the edit war, but because it more strongly encourages the other editor to use the talk page too, so their opponent doesn't automatically "win". Once some kind of discussion (beyond talking past each other in the edit summaries) is started, I think it's more likely to continue.
This would basically be harnessing people's selfish instincts for the greater good (kind of how it's in a politician's self interest to not stray too far from public opinion). And it's relatively simple, so it would cause a minimum of bureaucratic creep.
I haven't thought this completely through, to find any serious unforeseen implications yet, but I guess that's what all y'all are for. Any opinions? If this has been discussed before, I couldn't find it; let me know where, if I just didn't look hard enough. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 21:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, thanks to all for the feedback. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 16:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I have created a proposal for reforming many aspects of RFA, including some new processes, in order to address what I have seen over the past year as the major ways in which the process is severely bent if not actually broken.
I have kept this in userspace for now as I feel it would only make sense to put it in projectspace if any parts are generally approved by the community and edited to reflect such possible approval. I would have no objection to the pages being moved out of my userspace if someone else thinks I am mistaken in that. I invite discussion from all sides. Crossposted at WP:VPP, WT:RFA, WP:AN. Please repost if I have missed anywhere. → ROUX ₪ 06:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
To avert an edit war, I've posted the following explanation and proposal:
Thank you.
The Transhumanist 21:31, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
A review of governance on the English Wikipedia has been started here. The input of everyone with any interest in the project is welcomed and encouraged. -- Tango ( talk) 21:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi! What's the policy on using a trademark as a generic product name; e.g. silpat for "silicone baking mat"?
What is such use called, for future reference?
Thanks. Saintrain ( talk) 19:19, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
RfA policy is clear that IP editors cannot have any involvement at RfA. This has not always been the case. I'm having trouble searching the archives. So, uh, When were IP editors first prohibited from having any involvement at RfA? And Where was the discussion that established consensus for this change? Please note that I'm not particularly interested in changing the policy. Apart from maybe allowing IP editors to add a comment. 82.33.48.96 ( talk) 20:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Can I get a third opinion on whether the use of quotes in [9] is good, or should be reworded in our own words? Thank you. -- NE2 21:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Reading the summary of the CC-BY-SA page, I was confused (as I have been before) upon reading the Share Alike clause: "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license." How is this different from a non-commercial license? If I download fifty Wikipedia articles under GFDL and bundle them properly according to the license terms, I can sell the resulting book; but if I read this rightly, I can't sell the book if I download them and bundle them according to CC 3.0, since I have to distribute them under a free license. Nyttend ( talk) 12:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Continued from [10]
I don't understand what it is I'm supposed to be doing. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 15:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
This [11] is a Hebrew Wikipedia Policy. Is Blocking IP's that did nothing wrong a Policy in this wiki too? 85.65.69.166 ( talk) 12:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
The community's views are needed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Advisory Council on Project Development. Many thanks, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
WebCite, a popular on-demand web archiving service referenced by Wikipedia over 20,000 times, went down for a server upgrade on June 24th. WebCite is currently "on-line" but a few things were broken in the upgrade and it is currently not working properly - for example, returning error messages or blank pages for most previous archives. ThaddeusB has been in contact with Gunther Eysenbach throughout the process and would like to assure the community that efforts are underway to fix the broken links. In the mean time, please do not remove, or otherwise attempt to fix, " broken links" to webcitation.org. See this discussion for more information. -- Blargh29 ( talk) 05:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't have time to look for the appropriate page for this request. Can an administrator please recreate famous Swedish actor Gustaf Hammarsten ( sv:Gustaf Hammarsten, de:Gustaf Hammarsten). If someone, ignorant of the Swedish entertainment sector, would like to nominate this article for deletion that can be done after the article has been recreated. Any inappropriate content can be deleted after that. Jacob Lundberg ( talk) 23:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
It was wrongly deleted in the first place. I'm not starting a lengthy discussion just because an ignorant administrator made a mistake. Just undelete the previous version and we'll start from there. Jacob Lundberg ( talk) 10:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Recently, I've been noticing that some people are citing Google hit counts in an attempt to bolster their side of an argument (this likely isn't recent behavior at all, but my personal experience is all I can speak to). What really concerns me is when administrators base deletion, move, and other decisions on such a blatant misuse of statistics. I can deal with people positing Google hits as an argument within a debate, but when an administrator bases notability (or lack thereof) on Google hits I think the potential damage to Wikipedia is worth bringing the subject up for discussion.
Google hits aren't completely useless. As someone else eloquently stated recently, when I brought this concern up in the course of a discussion, "Google hit counts can be suggestive". This view is correct, in that Google hit counts can bolster other data. On their own though, their extremely misleading. Please, if you hold an administrative position, stop making decisions based on Google hit counts.
—
Ω (
talk) 00:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to get The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest through FAC with at least one free image for later use on Today's Featured Article. I tried to use these:
But they've been flagged as derivative works. I noticed at toy that images of action figures and other toys have been released into the public domain unchallenged, but I don't own any Quest action figures. I do have a key chain and storybook, however, as well as comic books. Could I potentially take a picture of any of these items (I'd be willing to buy an action figure on Ebay to make a public domain image of it) and pass them off? ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 19:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Photographs of copyrighted images or objects are going to be at best derivatives, at worst just copies. But merely trademarked images are often confused for copyrighted ones. If you cropped File:Realadventuresofjonnyquesttitlecard.png to just the bottom three lines ("JONNY QUEST ---- THE REAL ADVENTURES"), you'd have a free image eligible for Template:PD-textlogo, and you could then use that on the main page. Postdlf ( talk) 23:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
A new policy called Wikipedia:Involuntary Health Consequences is being proposed. Come and discuss it. Danglingdiagnosis ( talk) 02:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone ever brought up "List of places in..." articles in the context of WP:NOTDIR? It seems to me that this is exactly what that policy was designed for.
Examples:
Etc. Figured I'd bring it up here to see if anyone knew of a previous debate, before putting it to AfD. Gigs ( talk) 15:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
For historical context, here's a somewhat-outdated-though-still-relevant discussion. – Juliancolton | Talk 21:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I've seen a lot of places on other wikis where there's an article that has text and someone comes along and does a strikethrough like this over the text and instead of removing the old text, they just strike out the old text and put the new text in.
I'm curious what Wikipedia does when people do this kind of stuff? Are you ready for IPv6? ( talk) 01:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Recently, User:Sfan00 IMG contacted me about an image I uploaded in 2003, which long predated the {{ information}} template. Unsurprisingly, it did not provide exactly the information we now consider standard. The text of the description was entirely clear that the piece was a self-portrait (I use it on my User page), but did not explicitly name an author. He warned me that the image would be deleted if I did not clarify this.
I updated the page to current style, and even submitted a letter for OTRS at his request (seems odd: I've uploaded literally tens of thousands of images to Commons, and have never been asked for an OTRS when submitting my own work, but I did it). However, I have a concern: there must be many other images that were uploaded in that era by people who are no longer active on Wikipedia. (For that matter, some may no longer be alive.) I expressed that concern, and Sfan00 IMG replied "This is indeed a valid issue, I suggest you raise that one in an appropriate forum on the wiki, orphaned works aren't just a problem for Wikipedia." I think this is the appropriate forum. If not, could someone suggest what would be?
It seems to me that for anyone who uploaded their own work can be presumed to have seen the statement that to upload their work inherently releases it at least under GFDL. And it seems to me that for longstanding images that predate any standard policies on this, we should presume good faith on the part of the uploader. I notice that we got rid of template {{ GFDL-presumed}}, but it seems to me that if we are going on a campaign like this we need to have something of the sort again: yes, we should try to get full clarifications from original uploaders when possible, but when not this should not be a reason to delete images. - Jmabel | Talk 17:39, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
why I'd recomended an OTRS to the artist in this thread, was that to me the works might have had commercial potential (shows how much of an art critic I am :P ) Sfan00 IMG ( talk) 19:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I've had no prior interaction with him, and was taking the message at face value. Perhaps I was mistaken in doing that. Still, it seems to me that if he starts deletion processes on images uploaded many years ago, there will often be no one involved to defend the image. - Jmabel | Talk 18:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering if any action needs to be taken on this.
I checked to see if my edit was accepted. It wasn't there, but because the article had been radically shortened through what may be the largest copy and paste move in Wikipedia's history.
The original article has a brief mention of what was done. The new article has nothing in its history about this except a giant increase in size, and the edit is even marked minor.
I went to the person's talk page and described where proper procedure ( WP:SPLIT) can be found, mentioned that his/her actions suggested he/she knew Wikipedia very well and would have known this, and reasoned that there was talk page discussion. Actually, I checked and there was not. And there was no response to my message. On the person's talk page, it was just deleted.
The action was certainly needed, but for purposes of keeping the history intact it wasn't done right. Is there anything that should be done? Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
What if it has taken too long to get this answer and it won't let me revert? Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I have to rejoin the real world now. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Why do we allow free images to be uploaded here? surely the m:mission is better served by placing these images on commons, and with them out of the way we can focus on managing the 100,000s of pieces of non-free material we allow on the free encylopedia? Fasach Nua ( talk) 20:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Should biographies of academics contain lists of papers that that person has authored? An anon is claiming that we should include such a list in the David Legates article, claiming that the existence of one in the William Connolley article justifies its use in the Legates article. You'd be hard pressed to find even a handful of academics whose articles include such lists, and certainly not any of the high profile ones (In other words, this stuff seems to be article padding rather than useful content). I think this is a pretty clear-cut case of WP:NOT a directory. What does everyone think? Raul654 ( talk) 05:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
With regard to the legal threat from the National Portrait Gallery to Wikipedia over image copyright, it may be useful to see answers to two relevant Freedom of Information requests: [12] and [13]. Not sure where this discussion is currently taking place. Thanks, Andeggs ( talk) 08:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm completely baffled. I AfD'ed as WP:CRYSTAL an article about a possible, but really unlikely US manned moonshot in 2020 - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Orion 17 - one of a couple of dozen highly speculative articles on various as-of-yet unfunded and uncommitted Orion missions ... and consensus so far is that it doesn't meet WP:CRYSTAL. Am I missing the boat here? Can someone provide some insight? Nfitz ( talk) 03:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
IMO, forget WP:CRYSTAL, the problem with that article is the lack of reliable sources, if we can't find one single NASA document mentioning "Orion 17" then it's a hoax. EconomistBR 16:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Didn't Wikipedia:AEE get shot down already? Yet here it is again. The edit history also doesn't bear with the idea that all of those people actually made the edits they are supposed to have made to the page. Isn't that a violation of Wikipedia licensing? Who then was a gentleman? ( talk) 20:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Self electing groups. Who then was a gentleman? ( talk) 21:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Name | England | Scotland | Brazil | Italy | Argentina | France | Germany | Spain | Netherlands | Others | TOTAL |
July of 2008 | 6,695 | 2,253 | 2,413 | 1,379 | 1,337 | 1,572 | 1,155 | 1,087 | 933 | 11,558 | 30,382 |
July of 2009 | 9,435 | 2,928 | 2,854 | 1,578 | 1,663 | 1,986 | 2,233 | 1,356 | 1,144 | 17,007 | 42,184 |
This report calls for the creation of tools that reduces the Editor Time required for the improvement and for the maintainance of those biographies.
This report favors the creation of a WikiSports in the same way of WikiQuotes.
This report is also being published at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people). EconomistBR 19:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm... This is not unique to sports. Ping a random biography, or a random town or just press "random article" button - it's not better. Your proposal covers about 2% of the ocean... NVO ( talk) 22:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Found the WikiSports and don't remove any of these players from Wikipedia. Everyone's a winner, baby. -- Dweller ( talk) 05:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
There are real problems with WP:BLP that affect all articles, not just athletes, that ought to be addressed long before the "problems" EconomistBR has identified here. I also have a difficult time following WP:AGF with this user based on his past behavior (e.g., creating sub-stub articles simply to make a WP:POINT), but I agree that BLPs need to be referenced, and there are roughly 7,000 footballer articles that fail that requirement today. The WP:FOOTY project members are working to reduce that backlog and prevent the creation of new ones - and I think we've made great progress. If other sports-related projects make the same efforts, we will improve WP much more than by moving athlete articles to WikiSports. Jogurney ( talk) 15:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Economist, the issue your raise is based in your fundamental disagreement with the idea of WP:STUB. Stubs have long been accepted on WP, if you think that an article which informs the reader of who someone plays for, how many caps they have and how many goals they have scored as well as their DOB (and therefore age) and often more than this are not acceptable, then make a proposal to ban stubs. What you argue several times a year, again and again, focusses soley upon football bios for some reason and actually proposes no viable way to solve the potential BLP problem (which would actually be a far more worthy campaign). You also misrepresent the situation; many times, you've been told that in no way is "every single player of any sport in any country [...] "notable" even if nothing has been written about him" and to suggest so is either dishonest or demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding - take a look at the amount of bios that WP:FOOTY members argue to delete in AfDs every day, and how many non-members believe that WP:ATHLETE is actually too restrictive. – Toon 18:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Speaking of likely-not-notable soccer articles, i believe most of Category:Football (soccer) clubs 2009-10 season (and similar others, e.g. 2008-09) is not-notable, and what might be notable simply belongs in the relevant domestic league season. What do y'all think about this? -- Jokes Free4Me ( talk) 11:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Well... Okay, top-tier teams maybe. But still, IMO, these are not articles. They are merely a collection of random statistic data about a particular incidental entity during an arbitrary time-frame. For instance, what's encyclopaedic about Crewe Alexandra F.C. season 2009–10? Or FC Oţelul Galaţi season 2001–02? More like fan-cruft, i'd say... -- Jokes Free4Me ( talk) 18:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I work for the engineering firm AMEC. We have an entry that describes the company in general terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMEC. Recently, I stumbled upon the entry for a rival firm, WorleyParsons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorleyParsons. Their entry had a distinct feel of self-promotion, well beyond the provision of general information. Specifically, their entry listed several projects, the company's involvement, and other information typically found in promotional/marketing material. However, this material does not provide grounds for a speedy deletion or as an article for deletion, though the latter is less unambiguous.
I sent a note to someone involved in marketing for our company, but feel hesitant to change our entry. I feel the intent of wikipedia is to inform generally, rather than to promote one particular interest. If we start marketing ourselves more, then others will jump in. Wikipedia will lose it "encyclopaedic" purpose and simply become another vehicle for self-promotion.
What is an acceptable entry and what becomes unacceptable, insofar as business self-promotion is concerned? Captain Selenium ( talk) 19:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I found one peacock term: "Large" (sentence 1). I also found a weasel term near the end: "...regarded as two of the leading...". Those terms are unsourced and could be removed based on Wikipedia's Style Guidelines.
I also concluded that the article didn't violate Wikipedia's Content Guidelines for IMO the article is not written as an advertisement. The AMEC article is also ok.
Feel free to expand either of them for as long as Wikipedia's guidelines are observed and respected. EconomistBR 23:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
For anyone who hasn't yet commented, the community's views are still needed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Advisory Council on Project Development. Many thanks, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 02:49, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I am writing specifically with regard to lists of notable people from [insert location] that are part of a broader article. I feel strongly that someone's birth having occurred in a particular location (generally a city or regional hospital) is not only non-notable, but the birth location likely did not have as profound an influence on one's life as the municipalities in which one grew up / achieved notability / currently resides. This is not to say that this information doesn't belong in the article about the individual, but that it does not belong in an article about the municipality (or in some cases schools, as in so-and-so went to this high school). Certain individuals were born in one place, grew up in another, and went on to live in several other places only to be buried somewhere else. That's a lot of articles they could be included in. Such sections are generally more prevalent in less populous areas. For example, one doesn't see an article about Hollywood CA listing all the celebs that work/live there, nor is there such a section for notables born in New York City.
Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#Lists_of_people doesn't appear to provide guidelines as to what qualifies an individual to be notable in association with a particular location, only whether the individual is notable enough for general list inclusion. Someone who spent no more than 2-3 days as a baby in a delivery ward of a city's hospital is just as eligible for inclusion as someone who lived there all his/her life.
Additionally, lists of people seem to contribute very little to an article about a municipality, in that it doesn't describe the municipality (the article's topic). For example, to list Martin Luther King Jr as being born somewhere provides very little content and context, whereas writing a paragraph about how Martin Luther King Jr impacted a community that he was active in provides a lot more context not only about the individual, but also about the place.
In summary, I'm seeking a guideline/policy enhancement for lists of people that more stringently defines just who can be included in the context of a municipal article (or the like), and what qualifies them to be notable in association with said municipality.
--
JBC3 (
talk) 00:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Five Six examples:
-- JBC3 ( talk) 08:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)-- JBC3 ( talk) 08:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) How do you handle Gary, Indiana? It's all over the news as being the "hometown of Michael Jackson." It could be said that Jackson didn't have a profound impact on Gary, since during the bulk of his career, he did not live there. I also know of many communities in South Dakota highlight themselves as hometown of such and such U.S. Senator. Murdo, South Dakota has a sign outside of town stating it's home to Senator John Thune, even though Thune is primarily known for playing high school basketball there, went to college out of state, and currently resides in Sioux Falls. Lawrence Welk was from Strasburg, North Dakota and that community makes a pretty big deal out of his being born there. I don't think Welk and Strasburg interacted "in a meaningful and notable way." So, I think we need a more structured guideline. Warren Christopher was born in Scranton, North Dakota. Willy Mays grew up in Grand Forks and Fargo. All three are recipients of the North Dakota Roughrider Award. We cannot say that being born in a community is inherently non-notable anymore than we can say such a fact is inherently notable. We should give deference to the relevant state or city wikiproject to determine how they view the issue, and also take into consideration other factors, such as how the community itself treats the individual. For example, the existance of some formal recognition of the person by the community, such as the the Welk Homestead Historical Site in Strasburg. DCmacnut <> 02:53, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Above please find a first and very rough draft of the proposed guideline changes based on our discussion above. This would be inserted into WP:Notability (people) in place of the current Lists of people section. I have tried to look back and incorporate everyone's thoughts and concerns while accounting for existing policy. Please share your thoughts on this draft, and let me know if I missed something, where I was way off base, where I am right on, etc. -- JBC3 ( talk) 18:42, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, people regularly use these lists to add themselves, or some random alumnus—despite the longstanding consensus that some form of notability standard is needed. I think it's necessary to clarify this as a matter of policy, using something like the proposal above (or the old, unadopted Wikipedia:Notable alumni), in order to be able to succinctly and politely explain exactly why changes were reverted. Given that a lot of new or unregistered users make some of their first edits by adding themselves to the alumni list of their high school or university, it serves a practical purpose to be able to point to a policy that clearly outlines what is generally acceptable. (Right now, a new user would probably get lost somewhere between WP:N, WP:BIO and WP:L.) So I support the idea that we specify something here.
Also, Fram makes a fair point that identifying prominent alumni can reflect upon the school. Given that possibility, I don't think it would necessarily be wise to ban alumni lists entirely. However, we should rely upon reliable sources to identify the causal link between alumnus and school. For example, the fact that several notable alumni graduated from a school should not allow us to make the implication that the school had anything to do with their notability (or vice versa)—that's original research unless verified by a source. (So, in Fram's example, to make a claim that the graduates as a group confer notability on the school, and therefore make the list useful, one would need to cite sources—like the ones he provided—to back up the individuals named, or the claim of notability in the text.
In a more general sense, however, there's one big thing missing from almost all of these alumni lists: verification that the person listed was in fact an alumnus of that school. I strongly suggest that any policy of this nature ought to insist upon a citation of this fact, for every person so listed.
So, moving beyond the topic of alumni, I think that lists of people in articles would generally benefit from strict notability and verifiability criteria. Otherwise, you might end up with lists like Creative Artists Agency#Notable people represented by CAA ( as at this revision). Cite a source establishing membership in the group, and demonstrate notability in that context (either in the list, or on that person's Wikipedia page if one exists).
Regarding instruction creep: we need some regulation—but how much is enough (vs. too much, too little)? This is the place to specify it, and as long as we create requirements that logically follow from the current principles, and provide a more efficient way to equitably resolve recurring issues, I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that this represents the path down the slippery slope. TheFeds 04:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Some editors may mistakenly believe this to be a referendum on the drafts presented above and below. On the contrary, this is meant to be a forum by which a constructive discussion can take place by which a concensus can be reached on the wording of an already existing guideline. Rather than support or oppose, please comments on how to improve this draft, such as what to take out and what to put in. I have attempted to alter this draft based on comments made about the previous draft. Anything agreed to here will likely be used further in a RfC to obtain broad-based concensus. Please note that the last two paragraphs are already part of existing guidelines. -- JBC3 ( talk) 19:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
-- JBC3 ( talk) 19:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Lists of people
Many articles contain (or stand alone as) lists of people. Inclusion in these lists should be determined by the notability criteria above. Furthermore, every entry in such a list requires a reliable source attesting to the fact that the named person is a member of the listed group.
For instance, articles about schools often include (or link to) a list of notable alumni, but such lists are not intended to contain every graduate of the school—only those with verifiable notability. Editors who would like to be identified as an alumnus/alumna should instead use the categories intended for this purpose, e.g. Category:Wikipedians by alma mater.
I've pulled out the sentence "Because only notable people should be included in lists, the use of the words "famous," "notable", "noted," "prominent," and the like should be avoided in their descriptions, and should not be included in the title of the section or article." That seems to be geared toward stand-alone lists (whose titles are also page titles), and because there is value in using a title like "Notable alumni" to remind people that these aren't indiscriminate lists (subtly advising them not to add themselves and their friends, unless notable). TheFeds 18:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm going ahead and changing the guideline text as I proposed; if we generate consensus to add the items up for discussion in the earlier drafts, by all means edit them in as well. TheFeds 16:13, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Ladies and Gentlemen,
As you may be aware, there is concern that the sitenotices regarding submission of candidacy for the Board of Trustees election were not seen anywhere but Meta after the 11th of this month. Because of the potentially massive consequence of this, and to encourage a full and active election, the election committee has determined that:
- Candidacies will be accepted through July 27th at 23:59 (UTC)
- The period for questioning candidates begins immediately. Candidates that are "late to the party" will, no doubt, be scrutinized by the community. The Committee hopes that the community will work to actively ensure that all candidates receive equivalent questioning.
- The dates of election will not change. The election will begin on 28 July and end on 10 August.
Please know that we recognize the radical nature of altering the schedule in the midst of the election and would not do it if we did not absolutely believe that there was a possibility that others may be interested and qualified and may not have known about the key dates.
For the committee, - Philippe 09:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Please forgive me for soapboxing (or voicing a concern rather) this is I hope the right venue for it. I've been at WP for a year and a half and the one policy that has continually bothered me is why we give professional athletes a blanket exception to the general notability guideline and the requirement for non-trivial secondary coverage that biographies of living persons in every other profession are required to satisfy.
I'm not arguing against the inclusion of Olympic athletes or those who have made the world championships, my problem is specifically with situations such as when a player who is called up from the minor leagues or reserves after an injury, makes a single non-noteworthy appearance and then goes back into the reserves the following week. I question why the player in question should be presumed notable because of that single appearance even when there is no significant coverage. I feel this violates the core tenant taht Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that reports on notable subjects and is not a sports almanac. Why the same standard we apply in almost every other situation shouldn't be applied to athletes is what I don't understand. - 2 ... says you, says me 17:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
As someone who has created a couple of articles on athletes, I agree that the blanket coverage based on "professional" has issues. However, my view is more based on the arguments regarding what is professional, and how far down the list that notability should extend. There is vastly differing opinion regarding what is encyclopaedic, and what is 'fancruft' for want of a better word. I think from an encyclopaedic point of view, playing for ones country, say at the Olympics, has encyclopaedic value, but playing fourth level football anywhere is generally not so. This is where WP gets drawn more towards a 'sports almanac' and further away from 'encyclopaedia'. There are many arguments currently about League of Ireland players because the shady line (arguably) doesn't quite cover them, yet they are probably more notable playing in Ireland's top league than England 4th league players. Same argument applies probably to half the countries listed here.--ClubOranje T 06:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
If I got a number from adding up numbers from several different pages, how do I cite it? Here's why I'm asking:
I want to view articles on Manhattan neighborhoods, look at the definition of the boundaries of each neighborhood, and then use American FactFinder to find the population of each block within that definition, and add them up to find the population of the neighborhood. How do I cite the reference? Someone the Person ( talk) 15:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Take a look at how I did something similar to unincorporated towns of Saint Michael and Temvik, North Dakota. I didn't attribute the population to the towns, but rather described the census block ranges and their respective populations. DCmacnut <> 13:58, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I had questions about the wikipedia's compliance with a NYTimes request to honor a moratorium on publishing any details about the capture of NYTimes journalist David Rohde.
Yesterday the Taliban released a video of captured GI Bowe R. Bergdahl. Today the DoD released his identity. In the fourth reference I read while working on that article I saw that Bergdahl's father had requested a moratorium on publishing any details about his capture.
Because the moratorium request for Rohde's capture was discussed here I thought I would note that Bergdahl's family had also requested a moratorium.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 17:49, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I copied and pasted the name of a newspaper article and later realized I forgot to capitalize the words properly. Someone actually reverted me! [28] I can't find any policy on this. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 17:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
With the exception of obnoxious all-capital titles, we ought to preserve the title capitalization of any work we make reference to. It isn't useful to change them to fit style preferences, especially since title capitalization of news articles generally represents the news agency's own style guidelines. For titles rendered in all-caps, though, you can assume "standard" titlecasing is an acceptable variant. — Gavia immer ( talk) 18:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Just for everybody's information, in BibTeX, which is used by a large fraction of scientists for formatting their references (probably more than half of all mathematicians and physicists, for example), all unescaped initial capitals in titles but the first are automatically reduced to lower case. I always thought this was the English or at least American way of doing it, and in fact it's quite annoying for references in German because there are so many capital letters that need escaping. This is probably where a significant number of editors come from. Hans Adler 18:15, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the force of the bullet is primarily shown in foot-pounds in cartridges when the caliber is in inches with the measurement in Joules in parenthesis. Ex: .30-06 Springfield In cartridges whose name is in mm, joules is the primary measurement. Ex: 7.62x51mm NATO It seems awfully arbitrary to assign the unit of measurement based on the cartridge's name. Could it be changed so that joules is the primary measurement for all the cartridges, with foot-pounds in parenthesis? It would make it easier to compare them if you knew that all articles had the same format in the infobox. 24.6.46.177 ( talk) 17:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
My greatest criticism of Wikipedia has always been the image enlargement policy whereby clicking the enlargement icon in the article takes the user to the image maintenance page where an enlarged image is found, but often with a checkerboard image background (indicating a transparency attribute), and surrounded with all sorts of clutter, including a file-cabinet load of legalese, the image caption lost in the clutter.
The importance of the enlarged view is crucial and the checkerboard issue arises in the case of technical data plots.
Can we please have what the user REALLY wants and that is an enlarged version of the image with caption preserved, perhaps an embellished caption, but certainly clutter-free with no checkerboard background or any other type of image maintenance information on glaring display? You can always put a link there to the maintenance page. Thank you. Rtdrury ( talk) 21:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
This is extremely unprofessional. It is normal in literature other than wikipedia to cite things like this[1], and so therefore it is logical to stick a note expressing a lack of citation where it belongs in the space where a citation would normally go. However, I doubt you would find any style manual that tells you to insert notes about the text into it using syntax and punctuation which is derived from that of citing sources. This is a wikipedia-ism, and is very amateurish.
I agree that we should have some kind of better inline way or warning readers about problematic clauses in articles, but it needs, IMHO, to be something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.7.225.224 ( talk) 07:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Is the anon claiming that those tags are used too often, misused, should be changed, a combination of those or something completely different? I don't know what he wants to be done. SMP0328. ( talk) 18:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
One improvement might be to require each tag insertion that isn't a citation request to be accompanied by an explanation on the talk page. If not, that would be grounds for another editor to remove the tag. An explaination requirement would cut down on "drive by" tagging. All too often, for example, I've seen [dubious-discuss] tags with no discussion. The added effort of explaining the tag on the talk page might encourage editors to just fix the problem. Instead of tagging "Smoking is bad for you, according to experts." with a [who] tag, It would be better to change it to "Smoking is bad for you." with a reference, a fact tag or just remove the unsubstantiated statement. We have too many tags that sit there for years. Tagging should be kept to situations where an editor knows there is a problem but doesn't know how to fix it.-- agr ( talk) 19:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
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There are no guidelines for deleting information and navigation boxes where they might be inappropriate.
This issue came up for me for the one at the bottom of Guinness World Records where the info box does not as one might expect provide navigation links to similar references books but the diverse products owned by the Jim Pattison Group. It does not seem encyclopedic appropriate information since the ownership of such groups is temporary - Jim Pattison Group bought the Guinness world records brand in early 2008, before then had been owned by several different companies. I have put a discussion on the talk page.
But what is appropriate and not here? Looking around there are a number of so and so company group info boxes that group articles by who owns what products-- it strikes me as backdoor company promotion by their PR agents but I cannot find any particularly relevant guidance over this issue.-- LittleHow ( talk) 17:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm concerned about an aspect of WP:VERIFY that could have what I believe are absurd consequences. Consider the following hypothetical:
Editor A adds text to an article, which reads: "All dogs are mammals. All poodles are dogs. All poodles are mammals." Editor B does not dispute sentences 1 or 2, but challenges 3 and adds "citation needed" to it. Editor A objects, noting that 3 follows logically from 1 and 2. Editor B disagrees, saying the deduction is not obvious to him and cites WP:VERIFY to justify the tag. Eventually, perhaps, Editor B could even use WP:DELETE to justify blanking the text.
I realize there are dispute resolution remedies for this situation, but I'm concerned about the policy. It states flatly: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source..." It seems to me this is too broad and simplistic. As written, someone can demand a fact tag for any statement, and the mere fact that the statement was challenged satisfies the policy's criterion. The burden is then on the original author to find a reliable source. In the hypothetical I've described, I believe that burden is unfair: Editor B should, instead, be obliged to show that the logic is invalid.
Is there another policy that moderates WP:VERIFY in a way that suits this situation? What policy-related advice would you give Editor A? Therealdp ( talk) 12:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, in actual practice it's unlikely a case would be as straightforward as my example. It might be possible to "boil it down" to an abstracted, more obvious version (like mine), but Editor B would likely claim the two cases aren't equivalent and could throw a WP:VERIFY flag against the boiling process! A problem I see with both of these suggestions is that those policies are very broad and can be used to justify nearly any deviation. Seems to me WP:VERIFY is implicitly a more "fundamental" policy in Wikipedia, so it would win out. Furthermore, WP:COMMON is subjective -- Editors A and B would probably deadlock over whether it applies. Therealdp ( talk) 15:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Lots of people only think their conclusions follow from indisputable logic. We need to have reliable sources for anything that comes under dispute like that. If it is as undeniably obvious and logical as claimed, then there should be no problems finding a reliable source demonstrating that. If no such source exists, it'd be odd to suggest that something so clear could somehow not have been missed everything -- either it's not notable or it's not uncontroversial. DreamGuy ( talk) 16:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
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tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page). reallyCite error: There are <ref>
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help page). don't need a situationCite error: There are <ref>
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help page). where everyCite error: There are <ref>
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help page). lastCite error: There are <ref>
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help page). wordCite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page). needs a citation.
Wikipedia:When to cite had some sensible guidance written by the FA director a while ago - it struggled to get consensus as a policy I seem to remember. --
Joopercoopers (
talk) 16:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)I was unaware of WP:SYNTHESIS -- thanks for educating me. I have some heartburn with it, but it addresses the issue I raised directly and is stated clearly. Although When to cite provides sensible guidance for dealing with simple claims, I believe WP:SYNTHESIS is the more relevant policy for the case I described. Therealdp ( talk) 16:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
WP:V is not the same as WP:CITE. If an editor were silly enough to question a statement such as "all poodles are mammals", using WP:V would not serve as a useful crutch in his case. Rather, they would only draw attention to themselves (very likely the point), and should they choose to repeatedly re-insert a fact or citation needed tag (likely against consensus), they'd probably end up blocked for disruption. In short, Wikipedia's guidelines do not allow for someone to play stupid and hide behind the "letter of the law", because we recognize that such a strategy is extremely stupid. Reso lute 03:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
This is a pointer to a discussion about the meaning and application of a section in WP:POLICY. - Dank ( push to talk) 15:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Policy would suggest that Wikipedia is not a travel guide, but there is some debate as to whether settlements are entitled to their own standalone article, even if there isn't veriable evidence that they are notable, or sometimes that there is any coverage of them at all. There is a debate along these lines at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Theba, Arizona.
Is now the time to recognise that Wikipedia should have its own geographic Wiki along the lines of Wikitravel, in the same way that Wikispecies has to resolve the conflict between policy and practice?
Or should be uphold WP:NOTTRAVEL and dismiss the arguement that all lcoations are entitled to a standalone article by default? -- Gavin Collins ( talk| contribs) 16:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Many people are under the assumption that there is consensus that any place listed in a geographic database is inherently notable and merits a stand-alone article. As far as I know, there is no formal guideline regarding that and previous attempts at trying to formally codify it have all failed. The only reason some of the place articles survive AFD is because it only takes one person to create and a consensus to delete. The fact that many survive AFD does not indicate there is a consensus to have individual articles about each and every named locality. The vast majority of these are better presented in gazetteer form as a suitably grouped table rather than as individual articles. -- Polaron | Talk 17:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The above referenced AfD should provide ample evidence of my position on the matter; a place, just because it exists, should not automatically be entitled to a standalone article. Polaron is right in my opinion in his statement that a large majority of these "locations" would be a better fit for an appearance in a list-type article rather than by themselves. Many of these places will never exist beyond a sub-stub, and much of the sourced information they contain are rather contrived efforts at satisfying WP:V. Take the listed example : the best we could come up with is that it exists, there is a mine nearby, and once upon a time there was a train stop there. This clearly would fail our general notability guidelines but these types of articles manage to survive because of a nebulous "precedent" that they are notable in and of themselves. I personally do not find this a satisfactory solution, and would love to see some kind of formal solution take its place. Sher eth 17:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Agree with the above: every settlement should be listed in WP as to allow them to be valid search terms with geodata in a table, but only should have an article when there's more than "this place exists" information is available. -- MASEM ( t) 18:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Gavin, the question you are using in the heading is loaded and misleading. Everyone knows that policy is that Wikipedia is not a travel guide, and that articles recommending and evaluating hotels, restaurants, and giving advice on how to "get in" and how to "stay safe" are inappropriate for Wikipedia. So please don't insinuate that. The fact that virtually all all AFDs on verifiable settlements wind up being overwhelmingly kept has nothing to do with the community being ignorant of policy or wanting to turn Wikipedia into Wikitravel. It has to do with that people think that real and verifiable settlements belong in an encyclopedia, most likely because human and political geography is a staple of any traditional encyclopedia. This has been discussed several times over, so please stop beating the dead horse. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
NE2's response was short but IMHO it is right on point.-- Cube lurker ( talk) 20:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with having a page on a verifiable location. I often look up a location by checking out the WP page on it. Sure, a small place like Mahomet, Illinois may not be as notable as Chicago, Illinois, but what if I *wanted* to know about the place/location? What is then wrong with listing the place's location, and other bits and pieces of info about the place? This is not the same as vanity biographies ... -- Ragib ( talk) 20:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm working a village in Illinois up to FA status. It does not have significant media coverage, is not a capital (or even a city, for that matter), and is only truly notable for its school which most out-of-staters have not heard of. Does this mean that this article, which is currently an FAC, should be removed, its name filed away into a gazetteer, or deleted entirely? Do we want to backtrack? Other cities like Chetwynd are already FA. Should the Chetwynd article be removed, its name filed away into a long list? Sure, I don't have any WP:'s to back me up, but it just seems a little counterproductive to me. -- Starstriker7( Talk) 01:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia should list every settlement as if it were a encyclopedia. Basic information about towns (small or otherwise) are easy enough to reference and give a reader a starting point. RxS ( talk) 01:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The above comments, the issue with fiction, and the current bilateral relationship cases all seem to point to possible way to resolve a lot of issues w.r.t to notability and standalone articles.
Would it be worthwhile to say that what most editors are looking for in the criteria for a stand-alone article is the potential to be able to describe the article's topic in a manner that
In other words, if we were to define this mystical "encycolopedic" article quality along the liens of the above, then we'd have a bit more to work with to resolve some of these issues. For example, notability and its subguidelines would be one or other possible qualifications for when something should get a standalone articles, as the presence of secondary sources will meet the last two points above. In the parent discussion, talk of putting lists of settlements with minimal sourcing would help to meet making the list more accessible to the general reader (as a gazetteer) though itself may not be notable.
(I'm simply tossing this out as a suggestion, I have no idea how well it will take). -- MASEM ( t) 21:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Agree with the growing consensus above that named settlements should not automatically be considered notable enough for separate articles and aggregated list/tables are a better location for many less notable places. A related discussion is at WT:CITIES#Systematic inclusion of GNIS unincorporated communities. -- mav ( talk) 00:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Named settlements are inherently notable as demonstrated by the fact that there has been no consensus to delete them. When there is no consensus to delete things, the default is keep. This has been shown time and again. Not only with Theba, Arizona, but numerous other precedents. I agree that WP:V is required, but once an inhabited has been verified - not a hoax - then it merits inclusion. WP:NOT#PAPER. Usually, without much effort and using on-line sources, one can come up with multiple sources for most places within a relative short time (during the period of an AFD debate, e.g.) What causes disruption is the nomination of geographic articles by editors failing WP:BEFORE. It is this disruption that causes drama and the willy-nilly default to what passes as WP:GNG that applies to the minorly notable people would sweep its inclusion for all geographic articles. Carlossuarez46 ( talk) 01:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
← It seems to me that GNIS already exists. It does not need to be duplicated. I mean articles could be created by a script using data at sites such as GNIS or the census. Is that what we want now. I'm an inclusionist but articles need to be of interest. Some of the early articles that were based on census data where good if increasing article count was the objective. Such articles are dry. I have noted several instances where GNIS classifies a location as a populated place when in fact the population is zero. (forgot to sign, sorry) -- droll [chat] 14:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Masem: I would subscribe to your opening statement of what should, minimally, be considered encyclopedic, but these are, really, signs of basic editing skills, that cannot be expressed in strict legalese delete/keep guideline. Perhaps they belong to Start/B-class grading scheme, but not inclusion/deletion. The gray area between DB:NOCONTEXT and passing FAR is too wide to be described in a formal way. Our understanding of what a "nice article" is should not influence inclusion/deletion policies - no article deserves deletion simply because the lead is written in substandard prose, and no proposed deletion should be judged to keep simply because its lead looks nice. After all, prose can change rapidly while the subject (usually) stays the same. NVO ( talk) 04:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User_page_indexing.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A discussion has come up which should have wider attention.
google indexes user pages, I think that it would be appropriate to ensure that user pages are not indexed by google. What say ye?
Unomi (
talk) 06:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Userspace pages should not be indexed by search engines, nor downloaded by mirrors. It is public content, but it is in a meaningful sense internal to Wikipedia. Now that WP search is good enough, there's no reason for these pages to be any more public than necessary. Disembrangler ( talk) 11:59, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Per Anomie's explanation, I'll switch to oppose. Their doesn't seem to be significant reasoning behind the change; the same principle can be applied to everything in the Wikipedia name space, but that has helped me to find a large number of essays (when Wikipedia's internal search was insufficient). To sum up my thoughts, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. blurred peace ☮ 12:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
As I've said at similar previous proposals, I believe openness generally benefits us and fits in with the "free encyclopedia" ethos. For that reason, I prefer that our "internal" content remain publicly accessible, searchable, etc., except where there is a strong case for actual harm. The presence of some spammy pages in userspace does not rise to the level of significant harm in my opinion. Dragons flight ( talk) 20:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I think this is one of these things which has enormous policy inertia. Imagine if the original situation were noindexing (say, software default was noindexing, and had to be explicitly turned on for each namespace), and now the community was discussing whether to index userpages. Can't see that happening, and apparently we can't get agreement to go the other way either. Disembrangler ( talk) 20:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: A related discussion is occuring at Wikipedia talk:Search engine indexing#Strongly support noindexing of "user" and "user talk". Since that's a dedicated page (and Village pump discussions frequently get lost in the shuffle), this discussion should probably be merged there. Rossami (talk) 12:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I also put an RFC here: WP:Soap and googling User pages. How do you merge all this into the Search engine indexing discussion? I already moved the RFC once from my talk page to WP:Soap Talk page. ?? -- stmrlbs| talk 17:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Support per Orange Mike... the way things are now there is no way that user pages should be indexed... 70.71.22.45 ( talk) 17:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User_page_indexing.
During recent emergencies i.e. Hurricane Katrina and the recent DC train accident, there's been a question over for a short period of time afterward to give information to the public on relevant wiki pages. This was created for the DC train accident:
Usually there is a big kerfuffle over whether this is appropriate. I think it is and would be extremely useful.-- The lorax ( talk) 17:25, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I think in such situations adding a notice of this kind may occasionally be the right thing to do. It's not what you would expect to see in an encyclopedia. But neither is a banner telling you that there are not enough reliable sources for an article and asking you to contribute them. Adding such a notice is formally against policy, but it's not a big deal. I think it can be absolutely OK if there is a temporary consensus to keep such a notice, and it would often be wrong to insist too strongly that it must be removed. It's like shooting down a passenger plane that is controlled by terrorists. In many jurisdictions it's illegal. And yet there is no need to create a law allowing it, and in fact it would be a mistake because such a law could be abused in surprising ways. It's the kind of thing where most people simply agree that it's fine to bend the rules. Hans Adler 19:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I personally see nothing wrong with it but I doubt people who have a loved one in a disaster are even on Wikipedia in the first place. They are most likely glued to the news on TV, at a news web site such as CNN of FOX or not even around a TV or computer but are instead at a hospital or coordinated area for family members. - ALLST✰R▼ echo wuz here 19:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
These kinds of things are not really what Wikipedia - or any encyclopedia - is for. I know that NOTNEWS is not entirely applicable here but it is the same sort of concept. It is not really our place to do it, and heaven forbid some sneaky vandals swap the phone number around and cause us some kind of grief. Sher eth 20:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
This idea was promoted before after some hurricane strikes or something more than a year ago, and considered not appropriate. WP is the last place you should be going for information on current events. If there is an article that is affected by such events, there is a current event template to indicate things are changings, but otherwise such temporary messages are not part of WP's purpose, despite the possible benefit. (It becomes a slippery slope that less critical current events start meriting such tags - eventually we're have a warning that J-Lo's been seen in public again on her WP page and to visit a given tabloid page to followup, if this type of information is not carefully restricted) -- MASEM ( t) 20:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps a parameter could be added on to the current events tag to display a sort of warning like this. I think NOTNEWS would apply to the content of the article, but not necessarily to discussion of the article or templates on the article. But then again we are an encyclopedia, not an advocacy organization, so I could see why people wouldn't want to give this sort of information out. Perhaps a link to a (protected) page for people affected by the article from the template would be of help? Or possibly a message on the article's talk page instead of the article itself. Them From Space 20:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
This is a violation of WP:NDA. ViperSnake151 Talk 23:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
No, we should not post such notices. We briefly allowed notices like this after one of the hurricanes in the US (not Katrina but one shortly after - my apologies but I don't remember exactly which). What we found were that our attempts to help were quickly hijacked by scammers and other con artists looking to steer victims to their faudulent sites. In time-sensitive situations like this, we have very few resources to find and then verify that the putative links or resources are valid. Yes, the scams were eventually discovered and taken down but it took time and we'll never know how many people fell for them until we did. In every case, the victim would have been better going directly to a controlled, authoritative website or information source.
This is one of the rare cases where our openness works against us.
Rossami
(talk) 12:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a news source. If anything, stick {{ wikinewshas}} (or something similar) in the appropriate place to point people to the wiki that actually is a news source. Anomie ⚔ 14:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
'Controversy' seems to be an overused term in articles, for things which are not really that controversial. Does anyone see what I'm saying? It's like almost every second big biographical article has a 'controversy' section in it, usually just based on a few small media reports. Can we stop doing this?-- Wutwatwot ( talk) 22:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Remove the word if there is no actual " controversy" documented. To be a "controversy," there must have been some contentious and prolonged public discussion on some point or issue. It's not enough to document that an incident happened that some might think worthy of criticism, like they made rude comments in public or got in trouble with the law or something. That doesn't establish a "controversy," even though that's often how where the word is used in WP articles. Being subject to, or worthy of criticism, is not the same as being controversial. It's really one of the worst and most overused weasel words on WP, at least as applied to biographies, because it's a implicitly pejorative word that typically has no substance behind it. Postdlf ( talk) 00:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Hear, hear. It's wiki-slang that crept into article content. Hopefully, notability per WP:N hasn't yet. I'm afraid the only solution is bold but correct and properly sourced changes to each individual article. Christian Bale cussed his camera man, it's a small fact, not controversy. Meanwhile, huge subjects of ongoing worldwide debate ( Arab–Israeli conflict) exist without invoking the fancy word. NVO ( talk) 08:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Can I use next albumcover in Summer Serenades page, because the picture are watermarked. I haven't founded any other picture that I can use-- Musamies ( talk) 13:24, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The Wikimedia Foundation has begun exploring ideas for enhancing the visibility of the donate button not only within the Wikimedia main skin but also on every page of every Wikimedia project. We hope that enhancement will enable us to better inform our public that we are dependent on their donations as we promote the free and open knowledge movement. For full description of project, please go here: m:Fundraising 2009/Donation buttons upgrade en Rand Montoya ( talk) 22:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
There's an RFC going on on whether or not article titles should be italicized. You can find it here. SharkD ( talk) 20:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The Centralized discussion page set up to decide on a comprehensive naming convention about Macedonia-related naming practices is now inviting comments on a number of competing proposals from the community. Please register your opinions on the RfC subpages 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
is there a guideline or essay that is essentially the opposite of WP:BITE? Something that editors, particularly new ones, can be pointed to to calm a discussion down and remind them that this is a collaborative encyclopedia and they need to be open to others editing their articles. Something that's a step down from WP:OWN?-- RadioFan ( talk) 11:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Why does Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia show Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia underlined for the MLA style but the syntax generated from Special:Cite shows it italicized? -- penubag ( talk) 11:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Works which are public domain in the US can be uploaded as free images to Wikipedia, but not to Wikimedia Commons (where the image needs to be PD in both the US and the image's country of origin if different). Why is there this discrepancy? Shouldn't the Wikimedia Foundation determine what is considered free/PD for all of their sites, rather than having such differences? Because of these policies, many images can be hosted as free images on Wikipedia but not on Wikimedia Commons. This is very confusing and I see no real reason for it.
Therefore, I propose that either A) Wikipedia change its copyright policies about this issue to be in line with Commons', or B) Commons change its copyright policies to match Wikipedia's. This latter would certainly be the easier of the two, but I would prefer the first one since Commons' policies respects the copyright of the image's original creator more than Wikipedia's current policies. Although legally the copyright in the country of origin might not matter, it seems unfair to the image creator for such a huge, free information resource to be distributing such images as "public domain" across the world. – Drilnoth ( T • C • L) 17:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
If we do change the rules the right way to do it IMO would be to make Commons more accepting of PD-US material rather than enwiki less accepting. We recently moved a bit in that direction by accepting PD-Art images over at Commons, regardless of local law. Haukur ( talk) 17:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Please see
WT:BLP#Can we put back the material that was removed?. It would be nice to get some resolution with this. - Dank (
push to talk) 18:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC) material now reinstated
(Dank beat me here, with the strikes above.) As a matter of security, my common response to finding two sections that are/were identical is to put them in one basket, and watch that basket! But nobody else really seems to remember how to <onlyinclude> subpages, even though that's in the software.... Therefore, to avoid textual drift,
put all our eggs in one basket, and watch that basket at
WP:BLP#Categories! I'll see what I can do about the parallel language at
WP:GRS#Sexuality, too.
--
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 00:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I recently posted a message at the misc board ( Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Wikipedia:WikiProject Citizendium Porting). It is about a Wikiproject dealing with importing content from Citizenium to WP. I'm not sure whether my post is at the right place, so I invite everybody who is interested to discuss the matter at the linked thread. Jakob.scholbach ( talk) 20:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I know there are clear guidelines about not capitalising the initial letters of conjunctions, prepositions and so on in album titles, but I can't find any similar guidelines covering band names. Most pages for bands (e.g. Noah and the Whale) seem to follow the same format, but is there an official policy somewhere that I just haven't been able to find? If not, should one be written? ~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 22:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Summary: Create subject pages which present information in a structured way so people can access information in a logical manner. Currently people unfamiliar with a topic will digress endlessly in defining terms they don't understand from page to page.
(If you are a serious person please skip the irrelevant details of the following first paragraph. In fact, the last two paragraphs are self explanatory.)
Dear Wikipedia,
I very much like your website and am currently working at creating an inhale-able or edible form of your website so I can learn information faster. Although I have had no success yet and have all sorts of health problems due to trying to encode information into 2-butoxyethanol molecules, I have reached another conclusion. This conclusion is a result of a problem I have had with the conventional reading process as presented by the summary. Let me explain:
Since I am not very well educated, while reading articles I often do not know what the terms within the article I am reading mean. This causes me to digress endlessly. For example, I may be interested in learning about alkaloids (to encode wikipedia information with a lipid substance). To understand an alkaloid I need to know what a secondary metabolic path is. When I click on that page I end up clicking on metabolism. To understand metabolism I click on science, etc. By the time I understand anything at all I forget what I was trying to learn to begin with.
My suggestion is that Wikipedia would serve best as encyclopedia as a structured encyclopedia. This could be accomplished in many ways. One way would be to allow editors to create their own subject pages. This would include a Subject Title, an introduction into the subject, the fundamentals of the subject, and would list existing and relevant wikipedia pages in a chosen order. An expert on immunology could start a subject on this topic, give an introduction by explaining how cells fight off diseases in the body, suggest that there are differences between B and T cells and Macrophages and what the difference between viruses and bacteria is. By making these fundamental distinctions, creating a structure and context in which all the elements of disease and the immune system come into play in a meaningful way, and noting similarities and differences between how the body fights viruses and bacteria infections, the links to existing pages become much more accessible.
This differs from current policy by emphasis on how a page of information on a subject is structured, namely making sure information on a single page follows a logical order from fundamental or simple concepts to detailed concepts. Information becomes more complicated the more you learn. In this way attempting to learn details is precarious like an upside down pyramid where the very many details on the top are dependent on relatively few basic ideas which the reader cannot necessarily find but are highly important. If one wants to learn some of the many complicated details on the top, one needs to know the base ideas at the bottom. The relevant base ideas are not explicit nor implicit in any given paper on detail however. In providing context and structure for learning details, Wikipedia subject pages would be essential in and instrumental to realizing the goal of an encyclopedia: making knowledge accessible to everyone.—Preceding unsigned comment added by InterestingUtencilProposalManNumber9 ( talk • contribs) 10:50, 29 June 2009
An RFC has been launched by five co-proposers to determine community support for:
All users are invited to inspect the proposal and to make their views known at the RFC. Tony (talk) 18:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, if something is subjective (not objective), then trying to make a guide or policy governing it is bureaucracy. I've been dealing with a guide that is designed to look like policy and couldn't be any more vague. The policy WP:BURO seems to prohibit this, but is not clear on how to deal with it. The few users who have agreed with me, seem to be outnumbered by the advocates who expanded the guide to the point of WP:CREEP. I've put out RFCs but they get closed too soon. The advocates for the guide are avoiding discussion by removing tags before the disputes are resolved and WP:POLLING as if they just want to run the clock out while they outnumber. It seems that it's mostly people who are admitting bias against the admitted perceived problem that are heavily involved in protecting the guide. It's hard to get a neutral yet critical examination of the guide. Which forum do I use to put this bureaucracy on trial by neutral users and administrators? Oicumayberight ( talk) 20:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I just observed that {{ prod}} includes the following statement about deprodding: "If this template is removed from the article and the removal was not vandalism, then do not replace it." Aside from the note on WP:CONTESTED that one may restore a PROD that's been replaced with a speedy tag, I've never before heard any way in which we could legitimately restore a prod tag. If you go down the AFD logs, you'll see plenty of discussions in which it is noted that the prod was removed without comment by some random person. Of course, removing a useful template is generally considered vandalism, so as this specifically isn't considered vandalism, what is? Nyttend ( talk) 21:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
An essay has been drafted per the consensus at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Notability and fiction. Hiding T 10:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Please see here. Cenarium ( talk) 01:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
In light of the ridiculous number of death hoaxes we've dealt with in the past week, I've commenced a draft policy about the reporting of these hoaxes on a user page. Please feel free to review and make comment. User:Manning Bartlett/Wikipedia:Deathhoax policy draft. Manning ( talk) 06:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I've never seen this template before.
Usually there's just a lock symbol. What's going on? Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Should the Manual of Style (dates and numbers) recognize 4,046.8564224 as an acceptable number format, and not accept 4046.8564224? Notice the former uses commas and gaps as digit separators in the same number, while the latter only uses gaps. The consensus formed will influence how number formatting templates will be coded. Please discuss at WT:MOSNUM#RfC: Acceptable number format?
I notice that Wikipedia names the alleged victim in both of Michael Jackson's child-molestation cases. Has there ever been a discussion as to whether this is appropriate? The First Amendment gives media the right to name alleged sexual-abuse victims, but it is the general policy of the American media not to name them unless they choose to go public with their names. The argument is that naming sexual-assault victims increases the likelihood that other victims will not come forward to report a crime, fearing their name will be splashed all over the papers. There is a good deal of debate in journalism circles about whether to publish the names of adults who accuse people of rape. But in this case, it's a double whammy -- we're not just talking about alleged sexual-assault victims but alleged child victims. We should really consider whether it's in the best interest of society to use their names just because we can. -- Mwalcoff ( talk) 03:45, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I think that links to someone's essays in a policy page inadmissible. A policy is a careful work of consensus of many editors. An essay is a personal opinion, not necessarily agreeable by many. If it contains useful parts, please move them into a policy or a guideline, or a FAQ, which are, unlike essays, under the heavy scrutiny of many. There are thousands of essays in wikipedia on each and every rule, and putting some of them into a policy is bad precedent. Inclusion someone's is violation of WP:NPOV and consensus-building. Novices may wrongly think that an essay is also part of policy. I know that in the past wikipedia was lax in its rules in many respects; inclusion of essays is one of the relicts wikipedia must get rid of. - Altenmann >t 17:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
(out) I dont think an outright ban on essays in policy pages makes sense. Essays can provide important information on how policies / guidelines can be interpreted and applied and how one policy interacts with and informs another policy/guideline. If a new essay or one that clearly does not have a large community consensus is listed within a policy page in a way that suggests it has more community support than it does - it should be removed, or edited until it does reflect consensus- but I see nothing inherrently incompatible about links from See Also. They need to be judged independantly and in context. -- The Red Pen of Doom 01:52, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm... Opinions, parables and anecdotes should not be linked/piped directly from the body text of an endorsed policy or guideline, but I don't oppose to piling them in "see also" bin. If the reader has reached that part of policy, he/she must be qualified enough to recognize essays as such. Yes, "see also" has very low inclusion standard, so be it. (P.S. Altenmann: I suspect that you actually place the policies themselves on a level higher than they hold.) NVO ( talk) 04:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I started this talk after I deleted a link to Wikipedia:Don't demolish the house while it's still being built from Wikipedia:Deletion policy and was reverted.
Now, please tell me:
- Altenmann >t 00:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
You are asking in the wrong place. Your change has been reverted, so the change did not have consensus. To really find out why, you should ask on Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy, or contact the reverter on their own user talk page.
The idea behind the essay should be clearly worded in the essay. Please participate in the consensus process by updating the essay if it is not clear enough.
Finally, you should also be really careful about experimenting on actual policy pages!
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 00:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
If you take nothing else from reading the responses to your post, you should take that the word you meant to use is underlies, and in another commonly used (and commonly abused) form, it is underlying (not underlining). Once you read this post, I suspect you will never make this mistake again, and I will have struck once again to rid the world of a grammar abomination (one person at a time). Now, I will don my cape, and be off, free once again to search out with my wagging finger sense, some good person toiling away at their keyboard, little suspecting that I am lurking, ready to pounce on them should they write "supposably" or "irregardless" or "maybe" when it is an event that may be happening (note that I do have a kryptonite, and I probably shouldn't reveal it, but I have to go into hibernation for about one month to remove the taint whenever anyone says "it's all good" within earshot.-- 162.83.162.35 ( talk) 02:47, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm now covering Category:Wikipedia conduct policies and Category:Wikipedia legal policies at WP:Update, which covers every subcat of CAT:POL except for one, Category:Wikipedia global policy. There are 52 pages in CAT:POL and 40 pages of global policy, almost all of them overlapping. Is there something that makes global policy pages special or ties them together? Could we do without the category? It would be nice to cover all the policy subcats at WP:LOP and WP:Update, but I'm just not seeing the point. - Dank ( push to talk) 04:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
So, apparently Wikipedia is not censored except when and how Jimbo says it's censored. Do I have that about right? Mark Shaw ( talk) 17:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I doubt Wikipedia will do this for other victims of Kidnapping, and I am well aware we have not done so in the past. This was a pure cave to the disreputable behavior of the NYT - they were compromising their duty as a news agency (they would have reported any other run-of-the-mill kidnapping of an American Citizen, especially a civilian) That Jimbo further defames at least one reliable source (Pajhwok Afghan News) is just icing. Some of our articles are actually killing people, every day ( Homeopathy, which is innefective for treating anything, but try to find that in our article) - yet Jimbo does nothing to fix that. No, we're complicit in the coverup, which I guess is fine, but we should at least admit we'll cover things up when important or powerful people ask us to. Hipocrite ( talk) 18:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
If you look at the Homeopathy article, it states clearly: "Claims of homeopathy's efficacy beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence." I would recommend that people who believe that holding back vital information about physical people publish names and addresses of their relatives, so they can be hunted down and killed by terrorists. Knowingly endangering someone's life is most likely a crime in most jurisdictions, for very good reasons. 213.39.224.86 ( talk) 22:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Let me add to my prior post. Are you willing to die, right now, to fight what you consider censorship? If so, fine. But you have no issues with endangering innocent people's lives who cannot voluntarily take the decision themselves. Even if the article about homeopathy claimed that homeopathy could heal things, it would not directly threaten the life of someone. If you are stupid enough to bet your life on homeopathy, fine. But don't blame Wikipedia. You have a brain, the article gives you enough information to start thinking about it. But knowingly posting material that might endanger someone's life under the guise of "The truth" or "Everybody has a right to know" or "information must be free" disqualifies the author from membership in the human race. This is philosophy on such a basic level that I wonder why we even have to have this discussion. Grow up. 213.39.224.86 ( talk) 22:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
IMHO any censorship that lasts more than a day or two should be done by a person or committee invested with that power, and that person or committee should be accountable, directly or indirectly, to the community. We already have WP:OFFICE with explicitly authority to take actions when legally necessary to protect the foundation, which is likely not the case here. I'm not sure if its explicit or implicit, but WP:ARBCOM is probably the closest thing we have to a committee that can impose special interpretations of WP:BLP binding on the whole community. Both of those groups are accountable to the community: Those with the power to make OFFICE actions are accountable to the trustees, who are in turn elected. ARBCOM members are de facto elected, providing accountability. In either case, this would've been much better if it had been "the WP Office" or "Arbcom" doing the censoring and not one man. Of course, once the need for censorship is over, all cards should be put on the table as soon as it is safe to do so. This will allow the community to discuss the action and either endorse it by consensus, repudiate it by consensus, or take no action either by consensus or due to lack of one. Individual trustees and arbcom members may be "held accountable," if that is the right word, should they stand for re-election. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 00:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, sice now blackout every kidnapping. I suggest to censore articles about drugs, that will probably save lives too. 89.61.138.136 ( talk) 00:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
If it helps any, people might wish to read the article now that I've almost completely rewritten it from scratch - see David S. Rohde. -- ChrisO ( talk) 01:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Would it be that hard in the future to just lock these things and say WP:OFFICE? Because regardless of the intent (which was noble, obviously), we end up with the same "old boys club" and behind the scenes manipulation that has given us a black eye before. How many other admin actions have been taken on behalf of Mr. Wales? How can we ever know? I guess we are forced to trust Jimbo when he says that this sort of thing is exceedingly rare and only for "good" purposes...but that is fairly unappetizing. In the future, just sysop a foundation employee, protect the page, leave a remark that it was protected as an office action and be done with it. It's not like someone couldn't have looked in the logs of the page to discover what was being left out. Protonk ( talk) 01:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Personally speaking, while I don't disagree per se with the decision of Wikipedia's Benevolent dictatorship, both the manner in which it was reached and carried out leave a very bad taste in my mouth. A policy that approaches the issue rationally and defines guidelines and expectations consistent with Wikipedia's mission and ethical imperative is possible. The deletion of legitimately sourced annotations with false claims about their veracity is worthy of condemnation, not praise. 65.189.152.19 ( talk) 21:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm displeased that there is still the official claim that "Wikipedia is not censored". It was obvious to me after the previous case of removing photos from the autofellatio article that a commitment to non-censorship was indeed lacking. This case merely reinforces that conclusion. I really think the claim should stop being made as it just creates confusion. For example, there was lots of brouhaha over images of Muhammad. Some were saying that the inclusion of the images would endanger people, as, indeed, people were being killed and injured because of reactions to other publications of such images. Many newspapers did indeed self-censor on this issue, accepting that reasoning. These calls for censorship were answered with "Wikipedia IS NOT CENSORED!" Now, the censorship of Wikipedia is justified with exactly what those calling for the censorship of the Muhammad images said: "Life itself was in danger!" How will such contradictions continue to be maintained? -- Atethnekos ( talk) 02:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
We are moral beings with not just a capability, but a responsibility, to make judgments about what is best and to weigh various and sometimes competing principles and virtues. Non-censorship is a noble cause, so is life, and we value them both. It is not always clear when or how we can always apply these values to achieve the greater good. We just have to do our best. In this case, a decision was made to violate a principle, and it worked out well. Consider that good results were also achieved when Martin Luther King decided to violate the principle of obeying the law. Good results were achieved George Washington et al. violated their principle loyalty to their king. That doesn't mean everyone should discard loyalty or lawfulness, such behavior would lead to chaos and destruction. Knowing how to balance objectives to achieve greater good and serve God's purposes is a form of wisdom, and is not easily achieved. In this case, I think Mr. Wales and the editors who helped did right. Readin ( talk) 03:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps the criterion is whether there is danger to specific individuals, not just general categories of people. All sorts of things cause the latter. Eg news reports of events in the Middle East & terrorism cause violence against Jews & Muslims. Gandhi's preaching of non-violent resistance caused riots in India & he was imprisoned for sedition as a consequence. Jack Straw's criticism of veils caused violence against Muslims. &c. Does anyone suggest these things be banned?
On the other hand, there was an interesting case in America which went to the Supreme Court, I think. An anti-abortion group published on the internet a list of names & addresses of doctors involved in abortions. That was all. They didn't advocate violence. Nevertheless, the Court ruled that this was an exception to freedom of speech because of the obvious danger to specific individuals, at least one such doctor already having been assassinated. Peter jackson ( talk) 09:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The article was simply embargoed until Rohde was safe. It happens in journalism, marketing and PR all the time- why should Wikipedia (as a perfect example of Web2.0 and New Media) be any different? The New York Times simply asked Jim Wales to lock the article until such time as Rohde was safe.
There have been several examples of stories being embargoed for reasons of safety. Prince Harry's tour of duty in Afghanistan one example. The British press agreed to the blackout and was successful until it was leaked by The Drudge Report, whereupon the prince was withdrawn from theatre for his safety and that of his fellow soldiers. [4]). Only in the last few days, Australian Deputy Prime Minister's visited troops in Iraq. Her intinerary was reported by The Age in contravention of press convention to not to do so. They recently published an apology and retraction when reports of Gillard's trip were made public before she arrived, [5])
My general point is that journalists and newspapers have ethical practice on such matters. Journalists and communications professionals study these matters in ethics courses during their tertiary study. Its time for us as Wikipedia contributors to acknowledge that we are New Media journalists and that isn't just about being right or being right first. We make Wikipedia the influential source that it is, but we need to do so ethically and responsibly otherwise we're no better than the likes of Drudge or Perez Hilton.
On a slightly different note, I think we also need to be careful about the assertion of free speech. I'd wager the legislation around free speech, privacy and defamation varies from country to country, and I'd suggest its up to each wikipedian to understand their own legal context.
Paul Roberton
Paul Roberton ( talk) 10:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Interpolation of the above remarks has confused the context of the following, which was a response to Paul's last remark. Peter jackson ( talk) 09:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
(out of sequence in edit conflict; response to immediately preceding remarks, which the next posting isn't) Of course it varies. Some countries don't have free speech at all. Some countries have privacy laws, others don't. England (not sure about Scotland) has in theory a very strict libel law, where it's up to the publisher to provide justification rather than the plaintiff to prove the reverse, and belief in the truth of the statements is not a defence. In practice this is largely cancelled by the fact that you have to be pretty rich to sue for libel. The US Supreme Court has banned gagging orders except in blatant cases of national security, but they're common in Britain & elsewhere. &c &c
What I'm not clear about is how this affects Wikipedia. It's based in Florida but supplied to most of the world. Does it have to abide by everybody's laws? This may be particularly relevant to copyright, where the European Union has a longer period than (practically) everyone else, while the US often seems to have shorter ones. Peter jackson ( talk) 11:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Wow. This "I'll gladly sacrifice X strangers" attitude is depressing. HavocXphere ( talk) 13:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I am very frightened by this censorship. If something this (relatively) unimportant can be kept hidden for so long, we obviously cannot trust that it won't happen again. It may even be happening right now, and we wouldn't know about it. All it takes is that someone convince a single individual (Jimbo). Thus we cannot trust Wikipedia, or, by extension, Wikinews, to give us an impartial, uncensored world view. I call on everyone to abandon these projects in favor of something uncontrollable, perhaps distributed. 83.250.203.177 ( talk) 14:31, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Human life is put at risk every day by reporting, is it not? Does Wikipedia have a policy of not reporting information that may put someone's life at risk? If so, who evaluates that risk? What standards do they apply, if any? Is there a process to appeal decisions or correct mistakes? Reporting on the acts of a dictatorial government, for example, could reasonably be argued to put the lives of the regime members at risk. Should we sanitize Wikipedia of all that information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.22.103.251 ( talk) 15:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Paul Roberton Paul Roberton ( talk) 02:49, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales has been quoted, in the MSM, as saying that the good faith wikipedia contributors who were not made privy to covert plan to IAR and suppress this material were not referencing WP:RS. WP:AGF -- perhaps Jimbo's involvement with the supression was early, and the references which easily passed WP:RS hadn't been supplied.
I went back, and checked, to see what sources they referenced. Some of the sources those good faith contributors cited weren't WP:RS, but at least three publications they cited were publications I have had no reservations citing before. In particular, the English language service of Al Jazeera is extremely reliable. I have probably referenced their articles well over one hundred times over the last four years, and I have never regretted it -- never come to think afterwards -- "that Al Jazeera article steered me wrong." Geo Swan ( talk) 14:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I think a large amount of hot air and ad hominems are being thrown about above regarding if the actions taken on the David Rohde article were "right" or "wrong". I think that's the wrong discussion to have. The actions have been taken, the event is over, and I don't think that anyone is arguing against including the kidnapping info in the David Rhode page from now on.
I think a better question is how this event has exposed potential weaknesses in the Wikipedia process. Contrary to assertions above, this is not a one-off, sui generis event. Over 200 foreigners have been kidnapped in Iraq since April 2004, with dozens more in Afganistan. And that doesn't include other kidnapping events around the world (like the Maersk Alabama). Or other cases where reasonable arguments can be made that information hiding might protect the well-being of some third party (e.g. where you normally have media blackouts: head of state travel schedules, rape victims' and child criminals' names, etc.). If we argue that information hiding was justified in the Rhode case, what is the policy about information hiding in other cases? How do we make that determination? Where's the line, or if there isn't a clear line, who's the line judge? Which cases get action, and to what extent does the action occur? "When inclusion of material on Wikipedia may pose a credible threat to human life, such material shall be removed from Wikipedia, until such time as there is no longer a threat. The Wikimedia Foundation staff, in consultation with its lawyers, will be the final arbiter of such cases." may be an acceptable policy, but Wikipedia should have a policy, and it should be at least nominally accepted by the Wikipedia community. Without a clear policy, we have the case we have now, where David Rohde is somehow special enough to warrant a blackout, but the other 300+ hostages somehow aren't. The arbitrariness and secrecy with which this action was taken does nothing but engender resentment and suspicion ("Jimmy Wales and some friends use their administrator powers to suppress information on Wikipedia, even though there isn't any clear policy to do so" - you can see how this sounds a lot like a cabal).
Make a clear policy for these general situations ("Party X will probably be harmed in way Y by inclusion of information on Wikipedia") and get a consensus for it from the general Wikipedia. -- 128.104.112.62 ( talk) 17:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The Canadian diplomat Robert Fowler's kidnapping was reported both in WP and the NY Times, so it seems that some news trumps the risk to lives, and other lives trump journalism's duty to report the news. For us mere readers of WP and the NYT, reliability of both organizations as a reliable source of news is compromised. For the sake of credibility, the protected page banner should probably have another version that states a page is temporarily being protected at the request of an outside source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.140.66.30 ( talk) 20:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The account of Rohde's kidnapping has been cut and pasted into Kidnapping of David Rohde. That article doesn't really explain why the NYTimes wanted a blackout beyond quoting:
"From the early days of this ordeal, the prevailing view among David’s family, experts in kidnapping cases, officials of several government and others we consulted was that going public could increase the danger. We decided to respect that advice..."
I think the article on the kidnapping would really benefit from a better explanation of the reasoning behind the blackout than "experts told us so".
I think the NYTimes should have offered those wikipedia insiders a better explanation than that. And, now that the incident is over, the explanation that caused several key policies to be ignored should be fully and clearly laid out for the rest of the community. Geo Swan ( talk) 18:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
"Sorry, other publications like yours all have a hierarchical authority pyramid, with a small group of senior decision makers, who can reach a decision, and impose it on all their subordinates. But the wikipedia depends on the efforts of a large number of volunteers. I don't believe the wikipedia has a small group of decision makers who have the authority to impose a secret publication ban on everyone else."
Do you have a particular question? To be clear, if there's something you want to know, please ask, don't speculate.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 00:08, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I have some questions:
The problem with this sort of suppression is that we have no idea what else is being swept under the rug. It would help me a lot if you could come clean about any other similar actions and plans for future actions. Otherwise, It is just me and my imagination, which is probably worse than the truth. 128.97.68.15 ( talk) 21:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I second these questions and add another two:
I'll be happy to get an answer from you, Mr. Wales. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.217.15.245 ( talk) 14:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
A little update on the matter (I'm still waiting for the answers, Mr. Wales...): so it turned out that there wasn't a LIFE at stake, it was a matter of MONEY. And that was known from the beginning, as the so-called NYT counterterrorism experts never believed that Rohde's life was at stake. That brings the whole censorship incident up to a very disgraceful and discreditable level... So sad... (Still waiting, Mr. Wales, still waiting...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.217.15.245 ( talk) 09:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the recent discussion, I have made a draft proposal at Wikipedia:News suppression.
The purpose is to codify that Jimbo and other administrators did the right thing keeping the kidnapping of David Rohde out of his Wikipedia article. It also aims to define when something should be kept out of Wikipedia, even if it is covered in a few reliable sources. There can be no absolute rules for these situations, but some basic principles.
Some would say that we need no rule for this as we have IAR. However, Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is about ignoring rules when they prevent you from improving the encyclopedia. The reason to suppress the news of David Rohde's kidnapping is not mainly to improve Wikipedia, but to protect Rohde.
It is still a draft, comments are welcome. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 17:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
How about a draft for more democracy & accountability, less BDFL, and less admins? Proper guidelines on freedom of expression on the platform would be great as well. in proper journalism, there is no such thing as "protecting lives", whatever the agenda may or may not be. It's about getting the truth out. Pnd ( talk) 18:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Look, I don't really care that an article was protected out of the good faith believe that it would stop harm from coming to a human being. I'm GLAD that Mr. Rohde was rescued and that nothing untoward came from this. I have NO PROBLEM with the foundation being approached by an organization in good faith making a similar request again. Just please, please, PLEASE don't do it in the same manner that has brought scrutiny and shame to the 'pedia before. We have enough conspiracies (and reasonable allegations) around a "cabal" of editors who communicate in secret, take orders from jimbo and don't acknowledge it. All we have to do in the future is just sysop a foundation employee, protect the article and leave a note in the history that it was protected for office reasons. This avoids the subterfuge (totally unnecessary, btw, though I understand why jimbo wouldn't want to protect it), avoids the implication of dealing under the table and offers a simple solution to any problem like this in the future. If we aren't willing at least to demand that from jimbo/wmf, then we have become pretty supine.
As for the rest of the complaints...don't bother. there is no right to free speech here (and there shouldn't be). This wasn't some act of rank censorship which needs to be railed about for weeks. We don't need yet another policy page on the subject (which everyone will ignore in the future). We just need a promise from Jimbo and the WMF that this encyclopedia will be treated like the multi-million dollar non-profit that it is, not some fiefdom. Please just give some thought to responding to situations like this in an expeditious but circumscribed fashion. Protonk ( talk) 07:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
A lot of people bumping into trees here without seeing the forest. Those who want to do their business in secrecy will in fact be ruthlessly exposed by those who understand that free and open communication is the greater value. Even if this had been about one man's life (which it never was), secrecy and censorship would have been by far the greater harm. Shame on those who think of themselves as editors, if they actually desire to make secrets. It won't work. This is but part of the larger internet, where they now stand exposed and censured by all. 68.178.59.178 ( talk) 15:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps it is not well known that Wikipedia does, in exceptional circumstances, remove content from articles, or protect them so that content cannot be added. However, this has been a standard but rare practice for at least several years now. I view it as part of the underlying pragmatism of WP. Moreover, the well-documented WP:OFFICE procedure was invented for exactly this sort of purpose, and it is an unwritten but well-known fact that WP:OTRS is also used to quietly resolve issues where a drawn-out discussion onwiki is not desirable. I would guess that WP:OFFICE was not used in this instance because it would draw unwanted light to the page, but an OTRS ticket number was eventually placed in the protection log. This is, again, a reflection of the pragmatic approach to difficult situations that has traditionally been employed on WP. Those who favor rigid idealism in any area of WP are likely to find themselves disappointed. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 19:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
"These are removals of questionable or illegal Wikimedia content following complaints.
I don't really have a problem with the censorship, I guess. Sometimes freedom of speech can be taken too far, and in any case WP isn't really Public: it's Jimbo's site, and he can do what he likes. But his statement "No Wikipedia rules were bent or broken in any way" is patently false. At a minimum, the WP:Meat and WP:3RR rules were broken. Probably a few others were at least bent. Jimbo should take responsibility and tell the truth, which is that WP is his website and he can break the rules if he wants to, and in this case he felt more than justified in doing so. Webbbbbbber ( talk) 20:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Are other websites permitted to use our logo for any reason other than being informative, etc., as we use companies' logos? http://www.wirtland.com is currently displaying our logo in the top left corner of its front page. This website has been associating itself somewhat with Wikipedia: some of its members wrote an article about it that was taken to AFD, ending with no consensus, and now the article has been tagged as a copyvio of their website. In short — it seems to be violating the Wikimedia Foundation's trademarked Wikipedia logo. Please note that, while I voted to delete at AFD, I'm not trying to use this as an excuse for deletion (otherwise I, as an admin, would have already deleted it as a copyvio); I'm simply posting here because I don't know where else to report a WMF trademark violation. Nyttend ( talk) 01:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately; the icons/images in user warning templates ({{ uw-vandalism3}}, {{ uw-3rr}}, etc) are highly unnecessary, and rather unprofessional. As such I propose they be removed. Not sure whether or not this has been discussed before, though. Thoughts? – Juliancolton | Talk 17:52, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
←See Wikipedia:The_motivation_of_a_vandal (linked from WP:VAN) and WP:DFTT. Big flashy warning signs are exactly what vandals crave, they're insulting to good-faith editors, and all those IP talk pages with a long string of flashy warnings and no clear evidence (to the vandals) that anything was done make us look silly. I think we can find a way to label for easy reading and break up the text (objections raised above) with some kind of simple, color-coded icons that don't feed the vandals. - Dank ( push to talk) 00:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
A picture is worth a thousand words, and nothing says "you need to STOP right now" better than those pictures. Plus it helps to distinguish different warnings from one another, instead of leaving a wall of text after multiple warnings. Grand master ka 04:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed something a bit odd and was wondering if someone could help.
Chinese wikipedia is zh.wikipedia.org, which makes sense (Zhong), but the Japanese wikipedia is ja.wikipedia.org. Shouldn't it be ni.wikipedia.org? 82.24.251.231 ( talk) 16:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I have just proposed a new policy: Wikipedia:Rehabilitation of offenders. -- Tango ( talk) 01:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I have placed a (long overdue) poll at Wikipedia:Civility/Poll on how the community stands on civility - mainly on how it is currently applied and enforced. Does teh community feel it is too strict, too lenient, or about right? And should we treat a user's own talk page any differently to elsewhere? Casliber ( talk · contribs) 06:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2009 July 6
I've nominated them for deletion, as they present an attractive nuisance. Editors may think it's a good idea to leave an unsourced or irrelevant category on an article, simply because these templates exist. Something like {{ fact}} for categories, except these present a large block of text.
In both cases, the category should be removed entirely – especially in the latter case. These have been used on biographical articles. In one case, the unsourced WP:GRS category has been left on the WP:BLP article for nearly two years! When I've removed the category, was reverted with the edit summary (revert: the fact that a maintenance item has been outstanding for a long time is not a reason to remove it.)
Please join the discussion.
--
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 12:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I've just posted Wikipedia:You don't have to win by arguing ( WP:NOWIN), an essay on Wikipedia dispute resolution. Feedback and edits are, of course, quite welcome. - GTBacchus( talk) 18:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Someone has been at work posting links in footnotes, after adding a sentence copied and pasted from one specific website. Apparently it is a site that generates text stating whether the homes in a neighborhood are above or below the typical prices of the city. Its probably plagiarism to copy the text into articles like that, and to me it looks like the goal is to promote the web site. There articles seem chosen at random.
But the edits aren't exactly harmful, and if the information is verifiable it could have some value, so I wasn't sure if I should undo them.-- Dbratland ( talk) 01:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Examiner.com is a blog. Generally speaking, it is not a reliable source. Examiner.com can only be used as a self-published source if the author is an established expert on the topic whose work in the relevent field has been published by a reliable third-party publication. Even then, caution should be exercised. For more information, please see the following discussions on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard:
The relevent policies and guidelines are:
A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 14:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Let me just second this. I've been seeing an increase in examiner.com links recently, and a lot of them are problematic, either because they're off-topic links to a pay-per-impression site, or because they misrepresent Examiner.com as reliable. In general, we should be avoiding them. — Gavia immer ( talk) 18:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
(moved from VP (proposals))
I've seen it a couple of times now: Editor A and Editor B get into an edit war, Editor A keeps reverting but explaining their position on the talk page, Editor B does nothing but revert. If they both go over 3RR, they both get a 24 hour timeout. If Editor B plays his cards right, he can play chicken with Editor A, knowing Editor A has to stop first, and thus Editor B has no incentive to stop edit warring and discuss. While both editors need to stop, I'm not sure these two editors should be treated equally.
BTW, I am not, any any way, condoning edit warring. Indeed, I think being allowed to make 4 reverts in 24 hours in a content dispute is too lenient. But first things first.
I propose a modification:
The same BLP/vandalism/banned badguy/etc. exemptions would apply.
This is good not because this allows the person using the talk page to "win" the edit war, but because it more strongly encourages the other editor to use the talk page too, so their opponent doesn't automatically "win". Once some kind of discussion (beyond talking past each other in the edit summaries) is started, I think it's more likely to continue.
This would basically be harnessing people's selfish instincts for the greater good (kind of how it's in a politician's self interest to not stray too far from public opinion). And it's relatively simple, so it would cause a minimum of bureaucratic creep.
I haven't thought this completely through, to find any serious unforeseen implications yet, but I guess that's what all y'all are for. Any opinions? If this has been discussed before, I couldn't find it; let me know where, if I just didn't look hard enough. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 21:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, thanks to all for the feedback. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 16:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I have created a proposal for reforming many aspects of RFA, including some new processes, in order to address what I have seen over the past year as the major ways in which the process is severely bent if not actually broken.
I have kept this in userspace for now as I feel it would only make sense to put it in projectspace if any parts are generally approved by the community and edited to reflect such possible approval. I would have no objection to the pages being moved out of my userspace if someone else thinks I am mistaken in that. I invite discussion from all sides. Crossposted at WP:VPP, WT:RFA, WP:AN. Please repost if I have missed anywhere. → ROUX ₪ 06:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
To avert an edit war, I've posted the following explanation and proposal:
Thank you.
The Transhumanist 21:31, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
A review of governance on the English Wikipedia has been started here. The input of everyone with any interest in the project is welcomed and encouraged. -- Tango ( talk) 21:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi! What's the policy on using a trademark as a generic product name; e.g. silpat for "silicone baking mat"?
What is such use called, for future reference?
Thanks. Saintrain ( talk) 19:19, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
RfA policy is clear that IP editors cannot have any involvement at RfA. This has not always been the case. I'm having trouble searching the archives. So, uh, When were IP editors first prohibited from having any involvement at RfA? And Where was the discussion that established consensus for this change? Please note that I'm not particularly interested in changing the policy. Apart from maybe allowing IP editors to add a comment. 82.33.48.96 ( talk) 20:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Can I get a third opinion on whether the use of quotes in [9] is good, or should be reworded in our own words? Thank you. -- NE2 21:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Reading the summary of the CC-BY-SA page, I was confused (as I have been before) upon reading the Share Alike clause: "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license." How is this different from a non-commercial license? If I download fifty Wikipedia articles under GFDL and bundle them properly according to the license terms, I can sell the resulting book; but if I read this rightly, I can't sell the book if I download them and bundle them according to CC 3.0, since I have to distribute them under a free license. Nyttend ( talk) 12:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Continued from [10]
I don't understand what it is I'm supposed to be doing. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 15:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
This [11] is a Hebrew Wikipedia Policy. Is Blocking IP's that did nothing wrong a Policy in this wiki too? 85.65.69.166 ( talk) 12:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
The community's views are needed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Advisory Council on Project Development. Many thanks, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
WebCite, a popular on-demand web archiving service referenced by Wikipedia over 20,000 times, went down for a server upgrade on June 24th. WebCite is currently "on-line" but a few things were broken in the upgrade and it is currently not working properly - for example, returning error messages or blank pages for most previous archives. ThaddeusB has been in contact with Gunther Eysenbach throughout the process and would like to assure the community that efforts are underway to fix the broken links. In the mean time, please do not remove, or otherwise attempt to fix, " broken links" to webcitation.org. See this discussion for more information. -- Blargh29 ( talk) 05:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't have time to look for the appropriate page for this request. Can an administrator please recreate famous Swedish actor Gustaf Hammarsten ( sv:Gustaf Hammarsten, de:Gustaf Hammarsten). If someone, ignorant of the Swedish entertainment sector, would like to nominate this article for deletion that can be done after the article has been recreated. Any inappropriate content can be deleted after that. Jacob Lundberg ( talk) 23:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
It was wrongly deleted in the first place. I'm not starting a lengthy discussion just because an ignorant administrator made a mistake. Just undelete the previous version and we'll start from there. Jacob Lundberg ( talk) 10:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Recently, I've been noticing that some people are citing Google hit counts in an attempt to bolster their side of an argument (this likely isn't recent behavior at all, but my personal experience is all I can speak to). What really concerns me is when administrators base deletion, move, and other decisions on such a blatant misuse of statistics. I can deal with people positing Google hits as an argument within a debate, but when an administrator bases notability (or lack thereof) on Google hits I think the potential damage to Wikipedia is worth bringing the subject up for discussion.
Google hits aren't completely useless. As someone else eloquently stated recently, when I brought this concern up in the course of a discussion, "Google hit counts can be suggestive". This view is correct, in that Google hit counts can bolster other data. On their own though, their extremely misleading. Please, if you hold an administrative position, stop making decisions based on Google hit counts.
—
Ω (
talk) 00:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to get The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest through FAC with at least one free image for later use on Today's Featured Article. I tried to use these:
But they've been flagged as derivative works. I noticed at toy that images of action figures and other toys have been released into the public domain unchallenged, but I don't own any Quest action figures. I do have a key chain and storybook, however, as well as comic books. Could I potentially take a picture of any of these items (I'd be willing to buy an action figure on Ebay to make a public domain image of it) and pass them off? ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 19:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Photographs of copyrighted images or objects are going to be at best derivatives, at worst just copies. But merely trademarked images are often confused for copyrighted ones. If you cropped File:Realadventuresofjonnyquesttitlecard.png to just the bottom three lines ("JONNY QUEST ---- THE REAL ADVENTURES"), you'd have a free image eligible for Template:PD-textlogo, and you could then use that on the main page. Postdlf ( talk) 23:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
A new policy called Wikipedia:Involuntary Health Consequences is being proposed. Come and discuss it. Danglingdiagnosis ( talk) 02:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone ever brought up "List of places in..." articles in the context of WP:NOTDIR? It seems to me that this is exactly what that policy was designed for.
Examples:
Etc. Figured I'd bring it up here to see if anyone knew of a previous debate, before putting it to AfD. Gigs ( talk) 15:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
For historical context, here's a somewhat-outdated-though-still-relevant discussion. – Juliancolton | Talk 21:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I've seen a lot of places on other wikis where there's an article that has text and someone comes along and does a strikethrough like this over the text and instead of removing the old text, they just strike out the old text and put the new text in.
I'm curious what Wikipedia does when people do this kind of stuff? Are you ready for IPv6? ( talk) 01:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Recently, User:Sfan00 IMG contacted me about an image I uploaded in 2003, which long predated the {{ information}} template. Unsurprisingly, it did not provide exactly the information we now consider standard. The text of the description was entirely clear that the piece was a self-portrait (I use it on my User page), but did not explicitly name an author. He warned me that the image would be deleted if I did not clarify this.
I updated the page to current style, and even submitted a letter for OTRS at his request (seems odd: I've uploaded literally tens of thousands of images to Commons, and have never been asked for an OTRS when submitting my own work, but I did it). However, I have a concern: there must be many other images that were uploaded in that era by people who are no longer active on Wikipedia. (For that matter, some may no longer be alive.) I expressed that concern, and Sfan00 IMG replied "This is indeed a valid issue, I suggest you raise that one in an appropriate forum on the wiki, orphaned works aren't just a problem for Wikipedia." I think this is the appropriate forum. If not, could someone suggest what would be?
It seems to me that for anyone who uploaded their own work can be presumed to have seen the statement that to upload their work inherently releases it at least under GFDL. And it seems to me that for longstanding images that predate any standard policies on this, we should presume good faith on the part of the uploader. I notice that we got rid of template {{ GFDL-presumed}}, but it seems to me that if we are going on a campaign like this we need to have something of the sort again: yes, we should try to get full clarifications from original uploaders when possible, but when not this should not be a reason to delete images. - Jmabel | Talk 17:39, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
why I'd recomended an OTRS to the artist in this thread, was that to me the works might have had commercial potential (shows how much of an art critic I am :P ) Sfan00 IMG ( talk) 19:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I've had no prior interaction with him, and was taking the message at face value. Perhaps I was mistaken in doing that. Still, it seems to me that if he starts deletion processes on images uploaded many years ago, there will often be no one involved to defend the image. - Jmabel | Talk 18:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering if any action needs to be taken on this.
I checked to see if my edit was accepted. It wasn't there, but because the article had been radically shortened through what may be the largest copy and paste move in Wikipedia's history.
The original article has a brief mention of what was done. The new article has nothing in its history about this except a giant increase in size, and the edit is even marked minor.
I went to the person's talk page and described where proper procedure ( WP:SPLIT) can be found, mentioned that his/her actions suggested he/she knew Wikipedia very well and would have known this, and reasoned that there was talk page discussion. Actually, I checked and there was not. And there was no response to my message. On the person's talk page, it was just deleted.
The action was certainly needed, but for purposes of keeping the history intact it wasn't done right. Is there anything that should be done? Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
What if it has taken too long to get this answer and it won't let me revert? Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I have to rejoin the real world now. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Why do we allow free images to be uploaded here? surely the m:mission is better served by placing these images on commons, and with them out of the way we can focus on managing the 100,000s of pieces of non-free material we allow on the free encylopedia? Fasach Nua ( talk) 20:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Should biographies of academics contain lists of papers that that person has authored? An anon is claiming that we should include such a list in the David Legates article, claiming that the existence of one in the William Connolley article justifies its use in the Legates article. You'd be hard pressed to find even a handful of academics whose articles include such lists, and certainly not any of the high profile ones (In other words, this stuff seems to be article padding rather than useful content). I think this is a pretty clear-cut case of WP:NOT a directory. What does everyone think? Raul654 ( talk) 05:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
With regard to the legal threat from the National Portrait Gallery to Wikipedia over image copyright, it may be useful to see answers to two relevant Freedom of Information requests: [12] and [13]. Not sure where this discussion is currently taking place. Thanks, Andeggs ( talk) 08:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm completely baffled. I AfD'ed as WP:CRYSTAL an article about a possible, but really unlikely US manned moonshot in 2020 - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Orion 17 - one of a couple of dozen highly speculative articles on various as-of-yet unfunded and uncommitted Orion missions ... and consensus so far is that it doesn't meet WP:CRYSTAL. Am I missing the boat here? Can someone provide some insight? Nfitz ( talk) 03:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
IMO, forget WP:CRYSTAL, the problem with that article is the lack of reliable sources, if we can't find one single NASA document mentioning "Orion 17" then it's a hoax. EconomistBR 16:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Didn't Wikipedia:AEE get shot down already? Yet here it is again. The edit history also doesn't bear with the idea that all of those people actually made the edits they are supposed to have made to the page. Isn't that a violation of Wikipedia licensing? Who then was a gentleman? ( talk) 20:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Self electing groups. Who then was a gentleman? ( talk) 21:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Name | England | Scotland | Brazil | Italy | Argentina | France | Germany | Spain | Netherlands | Others | TOTAL |
July of 2008 | 6,695 | 2,253 | 2,413 | 1,379 | 1,337 | 1,572 | 1,155 | 1,087 | 933 | 11,558 | 30,382 |
July of 2009 | 9,435 | 2,928 | 2,854 | 1,578 | 1,663 | 1,986 | 2,233 | 1,356 | 1,144 | 17,007 | 42,184 |
This report calls for the creation of tools that reduces the Editor Time required for the improvement and for the maintainance of those biographies.
This report favors the creation of a WikiSports in the same way of WikiQuotes.
This report is also being published at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people). EconomistBR 19:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm... This is not unique to sports. Ping a random biography, or a random town or just press "random article" button - it's not better. Your proposal covers about 2% of the ocean... NVO ( talk) 22:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Found the WikiSports and don't remove any of these players from Wikipedia. Everyone's a winner, baby. -- Dweller ( talk) 05:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
There are real problems with WP:BLP that affect all articles, not just athletes, that ought to be addressed long before the "problems" EconomistBR has identified here. I also have a difficult time following WP:AGF with this user based on his past behavior (e.g., creating sub-stub articles simply to make a WP:POINT), but I agree that BLPs need to be referenced, and there are roughly 7,000 footballer articles that fail that requirement today. The WP:FOOTY project members are working to reduce that backlog and prevent the creation of new ones - and I think we've made great progress. If other sports-related projects make the same efforts, we will improve WP much more than by moving athlete articles to WikiSports. Jogurney ( talk) 15:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Economist, the issue your raise is based in your fundamental disagreement with the idea of WP:STUB. Stubs have long been accepted on WP, if you think that an article which informs the reader of who someone plays for, how many caps they have and how many goals they have scored as well as their DOB (and therefore age) and often more than this are not acceptable, then make a proposal to ban stubs. What you argue several times a year, again and again, focusses soley upon football bios for some reason and actually proposes no viable way to solve the potential BLP problem (which would actually be a far more worthy campaign). You also misrepresent the situation; many times, you've been told that in no way is "every single player of any sport in any country [...] "notable" even if nothing has been written about him" and to suggest so is either dishonest or demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding - take a look at the amount of bios that WP:FOOTY members argue to delete in AfDs every day, and how many non-members believe that WP:ATHLETE is actually too restrictive. – Toon 18:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Speaking of likely-not-notable soccer articles, i believe most of Category:Football (soccer) clubs 2009-10 season (and similar others, e.g. 2008-09) is not-notable, and what might be notable simply belongs in the relevant domestic league season. What do y'all think about this? -- Jokes Free4Me ( talk) 11:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Well... Okay, top-tier teams maybe. But still, IMO, these are not articles. They are merely a collection of random statistic data about a particular incidental entity during an arbitrary time-frame. For instance, what's encyclopaedic about Crewe Alexandra F.C. season 2009–10? Or FC Oţelul Galaţi season 2001–02? More like fan-cruft, i'd say... -- Jokes Free4Me ( talk) 18:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I work for the engineering firm AMEC. We have an entry that describes the company in general terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMEC. Recently, I stumbled upon the entry for a rival firm, WorleyParsons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorleyParsons. Their entry had a distinct feel of self-promotion, well beyond the provision of general information. Specifically, their entry listed several projects, the company's involvement, and other information typically found in promotional/marketing material. However, this material does not provide grounds for a speedy deletion or as an article for deletion, though the latter is less unambiguous.
I sent a note to someone involved in marketing for our company, but feel hesitant to change our entry. I feel the intent of wikipedia is to inform generally, rather than to promote one particular interest. If we start marketing ourselves more, then others will jump in. Wikipedia will lose it "encyclopaedic" purpose and simply become another vehicle for self-promotion.
What is an acceptable entry and what becomes unacceptable, insofar as business self-promotion is concerned? Captain Selenium ( talk) 19:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I found one peacock term: "Large" (sentence 1). I also found a weasel term near the end: "...regarded as two of the leading...". Those terms are unsourced and could be removed based on Wikipedia's Style Guidelines.
I also concluded that the article didn't violate Wikipedia's Content Guidelines for IMO the article is not written as an advertisement. The AMEC article is also ok.
Feel free to expand either of them for as long as Wikipedia's guidelines are observed and respected. EconomistBR 23:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
For anyone who hasn't yet commented, the community's views are still needed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Advisory Council on Project Development. Many thanks, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 02:49, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I am writing specifically with regard to lists of notable people from [insert location] that are part of a broader article. I feel strongly that someone's birth having occurred in a particular location (generally a city or regional hospital) is not only non-notable, but the birth location likely did not have as profound an influence on one's life as the municipalities in which one grew up / achieved notability / currently resides. This is not to say that this information doesn't belong in the article about the individual, but that it does not belong in an article about the municipality (or in some cases schools, as in so-and-so went to this high school). Certain individuals were born in one place, grew up in another, and went on to live in several other places only to be buried somewhere else. That's a lot of articles they could be included in. Such sections are generally more prevalent in less populous areas. For example, one doesn't see an article about Hollywood CA listing all the celebs that work/live there, nor is there such a section for notables born in New York City.
Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#Lists_of_people doesn't appear to provide guidelines as to what qualifies an individual to be notable in association with a particular location, only whether the individual is notable enough for general list inclusion. Someone who spent no more than 2-3 days as a baby in a delivery ward of a city's hospital is just as eligible for inclusion as someone who lived there all his/her life.
Additionally, lists of people seem to contribute very little to an article about a municipality, in that it doesn't describe the municipality (the article's topic). For example, to list Martin Luther King Jr as being born somewhere provides very little content and context, whereas writing a paragraph about how Martin Luther King Jr impacted a community that he was active in provides a lot more context not only about the individual, but also about the place.
In summary, I'm seeking a guideline/policy enhancement for lists of people that more stringently defines just who can be included in the context of a municipal article (or the like), and what qualifies them to be notable in association with said municipality.
--
JBC3 (
talk) 00:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Five Six examples:
-- JBC3 ( talk) 08:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)-- JBC3 ( talk) 08:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) How do you handle Gary, Indiana? It's all over the news as being the "hometown of Michael Jackson." It could be said that Jackson didn't have a profound impact on Gary, since during the bulk of his career, he did not live there. I also know of many communities in South Dakota highlight themselves as hometown of such and such U.S. Senator. Murdo, South Dakota has a sign outside of town stating it's home to Senator John Thune, even though Thune is primarily known for playing high school basketball there, went to college out of state, and currently resides in Sioux Falls. Lawrence Welk was from Strasburg, North Dakota and that community makes a pretty big deal out of his being born there. I don't think Welk and Strasburg interacted "in a meaningful and notable way." So, I think we need a more structured guideline. Warren Christopher was born in Scranton, North Dakota. Willy Mays grew up in Grand Forks and Fargo. All three are recipients of the North Dakota Roughrider Award. We cannot say that being born in a community is inherently non-notable anymore than we can say such a fact is inherently notable. We should give deference to the relevant state or city wikiproject to determine how they view the issue, and also take into consideration other factors, such as how the community itself treats the individual. For example, the existance of some formal recognition of the person by the community, such as the the Welk Homestead Historical Site in Strasburg. DCmacnut <> 02:53, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Above please find a first and very rough draft of the proposed guideline changes based on our discussion above. This would be inserted into WP:Notability (people) in place of the current Lists of people section. I have tried to look back and incorporate everyone's thoughts and concerns while accounting for existing policy. Please share your thoughts on this draft, and let me know if I missed something, where I was way off base, where I am right on, etc. -- JBC3 ( talk) 18:42, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, people regularly use these lists to add themselves, or some random alumnus—despite the longstanding consensus that some form of notability standard is needed. I think it's necessary to clarify this as a matter of policy, using something like the proposal above (or the old, unadopted Wikipedia:Notable alumni), in order to be able to succinctly and politely explain exactly why changes were reverted. Given that a lot of new or unregistered users make some of their first edits by adding themselves to the alumni list of their high school or university, it serves a practical purpose to be able to point to a policy that clearly outlines what is generally acceptable. (Right now, a new user would probably get lost somewhere between WP:N, WP:BIO and WP:L.) So I support the idea that we specify something here.
Also, Fram makes a fair point that identifying prominent alumni can reflect upon the school. Given that possibility, I don't think it would necessarily be wise to ban alumni lists entirely. However, we should rely upon reliable sources to identify the causal link between alumnus and school. For example, the fact that several notable alumni graduated from a school should not allow us to make the implication that the school had anything to do with their notability (or vice versa)—that's original research unless verified by a source. (So, in Fram's example, to make a claim that the graduates as a group confer notability on the school, and therefore make the list useful, one would need to cite sources—like the ones he provided—to back up the individuals named, or the claim of notability in the text.
In a more general sense, however, there's one big thing missing from almost all of these alumni lists: verification that the person listed was in fact an alumnus of that school. I strongly suggest that any policy of this nature ought to insist upon a citation of this fact, for every person so listed.
So, moving beyond the topic of alumni, I think that lists of people in articles would generally benefit from strict notability and verifiability criteria. Otherwise, you might end up with lists like Creative Artists Agency#Notable people represented by CAA ( as at this revision). Cite a source establishing membership in the group, and demonstrate notability in that context (either in the list, or on that person's Wikipedia page if one exists).
Regarding instruction creep: we need some regulation—but how much is enough (vs. too much, too little)? This is the place to specify it, and as long as we create requirements that logically follow from the current principles, and provide a more efficient way to equitably resolve recurring issues, I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that this represents the path down the slippery slope. TheFeds 04:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Some editors may mistakenly believe this to be a referendum on the drafts presented above and below. On the contrary, this is meant to be a forum by which a constructive discussion can take place by which a concensus can be reached on the wording of an already existing guideline. Rather than support or oppose, please comments on how to improve this draft, such as what to take out and what to put in. I have attempted to alter this draft based on comments made about the previous draft. Anything agreed to here will likely be used further in a RfC to obtain broad-based concensus. Please note that the last two paragraphs are already part of existing guidelines. -- JBC3 ( talk) 19:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
-- JBC3 ( talk) 19:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Lists of people
Many articles contain (or stand alone as) lists of people. Inclusion in these lists should be determined by the notability criteria above. Furthermore, every entry in such a list requires a reliable source attesting to the fact that the named person is a member of the listed group.
For instance, articles about schools often include (or link to) a list of notable alumni, but such lists are not intended to contain every graduate of the school—only those with verifiable notability. Editors who would like to be identified as an alumnus/alumna should instead use the categories intended for this purpose, e.g. Category:Wikipedians by alma mater.
I've pulled out the sentence "Because only notable people should be included in lists, the use of the words "famous," "notable", "noted," "prominent," and the like should be avoided in their descriptions, and should not be included in the title of the section or article." That seems to be geared toward stand-alone lists (whose titles are also page titles), and because there is value in using a title like "Notable alumni" to remind people that these aren't indiscriminate lists (subtly advising them not to add themselves and their friends, unless notable). TheFeds 18:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm going ahead and changing the guideline text as I proposed; if we generate consensus to add the items up for discussion in the earlier drafts, by all means edit them in as well. TheFeds 16:13, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Ladies and Gentlemen,
As you may be aware, there is concern that the sitenotices regarding submission of candidacy for the Board of Trustees election were not seen anywhere but Meta after the 11th of this month. Because of the potentially massive consequence of this, and to encourage a full and active election, the election committee has determined that:
- Candidacies will be accepted through July 27th at 23:59 (UTC)
- The period for questioning candidates begins immediately. Candidates that are "late to the party" will, no doubt, be scrutinized by the community. The Committee hopes that the community will work to actively ensure that all candidates receive equivalent questioning.
- The dates of election will not change. The election will begin on 28 July and end on 10 August.
Please know that we recognize the radical nature of altering the schedule in the midst of the election and would not do it if we did not absolutely believe that there was a possibility that others may be interested and qualified and may not have known about the key dates.
For the committee, - Philippe 09:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Please forgive me for soapboxing (or voicing a concern rather) this is I hope the right venue for it. I've been at WP for a year and a half and the one policy that has continually bothered me is why we give professional athletes a blanket exception to the general notability guideline and the requirement for non-trivial secondary coverage that biographies of living persons in every other profession are required to satisfy.
I'm not arguing against the inclusion of Olympic athletes or those who have made the world championships, my problem is specifically with situations such as when a player who is called up from the minor leagues or reserves after an injury, makes a single non-noteworthy appearance and then goes back into the reserves the following week. I question why the player in question should be presumed notable because of that single appearance even when there is no significant coverage. I feel this violates the core tenant taht Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that reports on notable subjects and is not a sports almanac. Why the same standard we apply in almost every other situation shouldn't be applied to athletes is what I don't understand. - 2 ... says you, says me 17:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
As someone who has created a couple of articles on athletes, I agree that the blanket coverage based on "professional" has issues. However, my view is more based on the arguments regarding what is professional, and how far down the list that notability should extend. There is vastly differing opinion regarding what is encyclopaedic, and what is 'fancruft' for want of a better word. I think from an encyclopaedic point of view, playing for ones country, say at the Olympics, has encyclopaedic value, but playing fourth level football anywhere is generally not so. This is where WP gets drawn more towards a 'sports almanac' and further away from 'encyclopaedia'. There are many arguments currently about League of Ireland players because the shady line (arguably) doesn't quite cover them, yet they are probably more notable playing in Ireland's top league than England 4th league players. Same argument applies probably to half the countries listed here.--ClubOranje T 06:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
If I got a number from adding up numbers from several different pages, how do I cite it? Here's why I'm asking:
I want to view articles on Manhattan neighborhoods, look at the definition of the boundaries of each neighborhood, and then use American FactFinder to find the population of each block within that definition, and add them up to find the population of the neighborhood. How do I cite the reference? Someone the Person ( talk) 15:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Take a look at how I did something similar to unincorporated towns of Saint Michael and Temvik, North Dakota. I didn't attribute the population to the towns, but rather described the census block ranges and their respective populations. DCmacnut <> 13:58, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I had questions about the wikipedia's compliance with a NYTimes request to honor a moratorium on publishing any details about the capture of NYTimes journalist David Rohde.
Yesterday the Taliban released a video of captured GI Bowe R. Bergdahl. Today the DoD released his identity. In the fourth reference I read while working on that article I saw that Bergdahl's father had requested a moratorium on publishing any details about his capture.
Because the moratorium request for Rohde's capture was discussed here I thought I would note that Bergdahl's family had also requested a moratorium.
Cheers! Geo Swan ( talk) 17:49, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I copied and pasted the name of a newspaper article and later realized I forgot to capitalize the words properly. Someone actually reverted me! [28] I can't find any policy on this. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 17:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
With the exception of obnoxious all-capital titles, we ought to preserve the title capitalization of any work we make reference to. It isn't useful to change them to fit style preferences, especially since title capitalization of news articles generally represents the news agency's own style guidelines. For titles rendered in all-caps, though, you can assume "standard" titlecasing is an acceptable variant. — Gavia immer ( talk) 18:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Just for everybody's information, in BibTeX, which is used by a large fraction of scientists for formatting their references (probably more than half of all mathematicians and physicists, for example), all unescaped initial capitals in titles but the first are automatically reduced to lower case. I always thought this was the English or at least American way of doing it, and in fact it's quite annoying for references in German because there are so many capital letters that need escaping. This is probably where a significant number of editors come from. Hans Adler 18:15, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the force of the bullet is primarily shown in foot-pounds in cartridges when the caliber is in inches with the measurement in Joules in parenthesis. Ex: .30-06 Springfield In cartridges whose name is in mm, joules is the primary measurement. Ex: 7.62x51mm NATO It seems awfully arbitrary to assign the unit of measurement based on the cartridge's name. Could it be changed so that joules is the primary measurement for all the cartridges, with foot-pounds in parenthesis? It would make it easier to compare them if you knew that all articles had the same format in the infobox. 24.6.46.177 ( talk) 17:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
My greatest criticism of Wikipedia has always been the image enlargement policy whereby clicking the enlargement icon in the article takes the user to the image maintenance page where an enlarged image is found, but often with a checkerboard image background (indicating a transparency attribute), and surrounded with all sorts of clutter, including a file-cabinet load of legalese, the image caption lost in the clutter.
The importance of the enlarged view is crucial and the checkerboard issue arises in the case of technical data plots.
Can we please have what the user REALLY wants and that is an enlarged version of the image with caption preserved, perhaps an embellished caption, but certainly clutter-free with no checkerboard background or any other type of image maintenance information on glaring display? You can always put a link there to the maintenance page. Thank you. Rtdrury ( talk) 21:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
This is extremely unprofessional. It is normal in literature other than wikipedia to cite things like this[1], and so therefore it is logical to stick a note expressing a lack of citation where it belongs in the space where a citation would normally go. However, I doubt you would find any style manual that tells you to insert notes about the text into it using syntax and punctuation which is derived from that of citing sources. This is a wikipedia-ism, and is very amateurish.
I agree that we should have some kind of better inline way or warning readers about problematic clauses in articles, but it needs, IMHO, to be something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.7.225.224 ( talk) 07:22, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Is the anon claiming that those tags are used too often, misused, should be changed, a combination of those or something completely different? I don't know what he wants to be done. SMP0328. ( talk) 18:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
One improvement might be to require each tag insertion that isn't a citation request to be accompanied by an explanation on the talk page. If not, that would be grounds for another editor to remove the tag. An explaination requirement would cut down on "drive by" tagging. All too often, for example, I've seen [dubious-discuss] tags with no discussion. The added effort of explaining the tag on the talk page might encourage editors to just fix the problem. Instead of tagging "Smoking is bad for you, according to experts." with a [who] tag, It would be better to change it to "Smoking is bad for you." with a reference, a fact tag or just remove the unsubstantiated statement. We have too many tags that sit there for years. Tagging should be kept to situations where an editor knows there is a problem but doesn't know how to fix it.-- agr ( talk) 19:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)