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A sanity check, please.
Being reluctant to remove mediocre external links from worse articles, but yet unable to pretend that everybody thinks it's hunky-dory to be fed braindead pleas to install plugins that will increase their subjection to advertising, I perpetrated this edit. I believe I acted in accordance with this; but, bearing in mind the awestruck tone of the WP articles written about "luxury brands" (e.g. Cartier SA is a famous [sic] jeweller and watch manufacturer that is a subsidiary of Compagnie Financière Richemont SA. The maison [sic] is known for numerous celebrated [sic] pieces blah blah blah), I'm wondering if there's some obligation to be undeservedly polite about them in the external links department. Nobody's complained yet (it's only a few minutes ago), but did I do wrong? -- Hoary ( talk) 09:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC) ... PS I later performed surgery on the Cartier article. It's still bad, but it's not malodorously bad. -- Hoary ( talk) 10:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Avoid instruction creep ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change. -- VeblenBot ( talk) 17:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
(Notice by Aexus ( talk) 07:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC): I've found this discussion very fruitful, I've gathered all information it produced and declare this issue resolved. See bottom of this section for more details.)
In the article
EVE Online an editor added a source to a topic in a forum that didn't allow public viewing. Readers had to register an account to access the source. However, the forum didn't allow new registrations. That prevented readers that didn't already have an account in that particular forum from accessing and verifying the source. I've found one guide that touches the topic of sites requiring registration, namely the guide
Wikipedia:External links. It has an appropriate paragraph. But since this guide is about the External links section at the bottom of some articles it doesn't apply to sources.
Therefore my question is: Do we accept sources that cannot be publicly accessed (and thus verified)? How should we other editors of the article proceed in this case?
--
Aexus (
talk) 02:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Note: Questions of this nature are more rightly directly to the reliable sources noticeboard so editors expert in that particular area can respond. For this specific question see citing sources which has examples of citing an underlying source through an overlaying source. Wjhonson ( talk) 21:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your opinions so far. It's great to read what you think about the topic. I think I should highlight the source in question. It's a topic in the
EVE Aurora forums. Aurora is a volunteer organisation that helps the developers and game masters of
EVE Online organize in-game events. Technically everybody can access the topic in the Aurora forums. However, one had to apply for a position at Aurora first. To be accepted one had to play EVE Online and meet other requirements Aurora asked for.
Let's say I don't play the game; I'd just like to read the source. I can't. Only members of Aurora can. Yes, the source is accessible - even if it's not accessible for everybody. Does this make a difference in the source's acceptability?
When discussing this issue with a fellow editor of the EVE Online article he wrote (with public accessibility in mind): "It would not be unreasonable for a Hewlett-Packard employee to cite an internal forum, wiki or intranet site for some obscure technical detail of one of HP's products." Technically everybody could access and verify the source. One would have to apply for a job at Hewlett-Packard. But other than that - no problem. I can't wrap my mind around this yet. With this information in mind do you think it makes a difference in the Aurora forum topic's acceptability?
--
Aexus (
talk) 01:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all very much for your input. I've gathered everything we've got so far. I declare this discussion closed and ask you to pursue the two aspects I've split it into. One is the reliability aspect that is now being discussed
here on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard as suggested by
Wjhonson on Sunday. The other is the verifiability aspect that is now being discussed
here on the
WP:V Talk page - also as suggested by
Wjhonson. Again, thanks!
--
Aexus (
talk) 07:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Due to problematic issues around the appointments of checkusers behind closed doors, I've proposed this. Please comment. Thanks, Majorly ( talk) 23:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know what the policy is on userspace being used as a template? Or just transcluding in general? I assume that transcluding within a namespace is OK, but that there are restrictions on transcluding between namespaces? eg. Template namespace is designed to be transcluded everywhere. User namespace can be transcluded within user namespace (eg. to organise user pages and for userboxes). Discussions (the various talk namespaces) are sometimes transcluded to organise discussions. Portals have stuff transcluded on to them, and in effect this includes the Main Page. And so on. But is there anywhere that specifically says that transcluding userspace elsewhere (in this case from userspace to image namespace) is discouraged or forbidden? Carcharoth ( talk) 13:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I have listed it at {{ RFCpolicy}}, but I don't know how much traffic that gets, so, i'll mention it here too: WT:BAG#RFC. — Random832 18:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Clarification on part of the policy on redirects has been requested at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Redirects from foreign languages. Please join the discussion at your convenience. Rossami (talk) 23:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the January 2, 2008 Wikipedia Signpost [1], a company called Video Professor did not appreciate criticisms in a Wikipedia article about it and demanded the IP addresses of registered Wikipedia editors via subpoenas delivered to Wikipedia along with two websites which criticized the company. The two other websites, infomercialscams.com and ripoffreport.com did not provide the subpoenaed info. Wikipedia did, “without a fight” according the article cited from ConsumerAffairs.Com of December 18, 2007 entitled “Video Professor Drops Subpoena, Goes After Wikipedia Users” [2]. This was discussed at Jimbo Wales talk page, User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 31#Wikipedia surrendering users' info without a fight with those complaining about it being told by administrators that that page was not an appropriate forum to discuss it and that their recourse was to write to the Wikimedia Foundation. Wales himself disputed the news report, saying ”It is false to say that we did not put up a fight.” without providing any details of the degree to which Wikipedia did put up a fight for the anonymity of registered users and their IP addresses. The buck was passed to Comcast to fight against revealing the subscriber info for the IP address. Sometimes the IP address itself provides too much identifying information. It appears that the other two sites did successfully avoid providing identifying info about those who posted there, but Wikipedia provided all the info they had, namely the IP addresses. This practice can only have a chilling effect on the willingness of Wikipedia editors to add even well-sourced information critical of organizations or companies who can afford to and who are willing to engage in litigation similar to S.L.A.P.P. tactics to prevent negative information being posted in Wikipedia. S.L.A.P.P. more specifically refers to comments made in reference to public policy issues, and is defined as litigation “frequently filed by organizations or individuals to intimidate and silence critics or opponents by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense so that they abandon their criticism or opposition.” The discussion was then archived at Wales’ talk page, so that appears not to be the appropriate forum to discuss it. I feel that this is an important policy area for discussion, and this seems like an appropriate forum. How hard did and should the Wikipedia legal staff fight to avoid turning over all the identifying information they have about registered editors (i.e., their IP address) when persons or companies do not like the information posted about them in Wikipedia articles? The article cited from consumeraffairs.com says “It's unclear why Wikipedia forfeited the IP addresses. A Wikipedia spokesman returned ConsumerAffairs.com's call but did not have the information requested. The individual with specific information regarding the subpoena did not return a phone call and e-mail.” It is time for the powers-that-be at Wikipedia to fully address this important issue, and for us to discuss the degree to which the secrecy of our IP addresses should be defended by the foundation in such cases.. Edison ( talk) 14:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Were the users/IP editors/whomever notified by the WMF that their information was released? Lawrence Cohen 16:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I've been invited to comment here because of a post I made to Jimbo's talk page about this incident. More Wikipedians need to volunteer to resolve conflict of interest issues. This lawsuit is an example of what happens when the community fails. Durova Charge! 19:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
This is why, A: if you want privacy, you should use Tor, and B:Why wikipedia must not blanket ban all traffic from Tor nodes. -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 05:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I have seen no response to the issue of why Wikipeda reportedly a) failed to respond in any way to the initial subpoena, and then later b)coughed up the IP address demanded by the aggrieved article's subject, unlike the other two websites who never did. Is this what we should expect of Wikipedia? Did other communications or legal processes take place behind the scenes? Should we expect that Wikipedia will fold like a house of cards if any person, company or group takes offense at any editing and tell them all they know about the real world identity of the editor who has in some way offended the aggrieved party? Does Wikipedeia have legal representation, and what are the policies for defending the privacy of editors? Edison ( talk) 03:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh wow, this is really screwed up. --
Ned Scott 05:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Was the IP address given up to the cable company without contesting the supoenae because the cable company would also then have to be challenged to release their own client personal data? What if the IP address itself had personally identifying information, which is not uncommon? Would the challenge have been made to keep it in then? Lawrence Cohen 15:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Would it be possible for the WMF counsel to clarify if this has ever happened before, with information being released? When, and how many times? Lawrence Cohen 15:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
<undent> It might be good to canvas editors and particularly legally trained editors for their ideas. I also think this highlights the potential value of a separate legal warchest, and fundraising to meet legal threats and challenges. I personally might be more inclined to donate to a legal warchest than a general Wikimedia Foundation fund. This is a good thread to get people thinking about this kind of thing. Comments?-- Filll ( talk) 21:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
3
Here are a few interesting bits of information from the Dec 24 Public Citizen's motion opposing the extension of time [6]. First, it appears that the IP addresses of sixteen WP users were released. See page 10 of the motion: "in late November it apparently obtained IP information with respect to the sixteen Doe defendants whose pseudonyms are set forth in the subpoena to Wikipedia". Here is a quote from pages 5-6 of the motion: "Upon checking the docket, however, Leonard discovered that on December 17, VP had filed a motion to extension of “time to serve the defendants.” DN 10, proposed order. The motion recited that VP had obtained identifying IP information from Wikipedia after filing a motion to hold Wikipedia in contempt for failure to respond to its original subpoena, apparently without any notice to the posters." Admittedly, this comes from a somewhat indirect source, but the text does seem to indicate that at the time no notice was given by WMF to any of the WP users whose info was released. Another interesting quote, from pages 4-5 of the motion: "The record does not reflect it, but it is our understanding that the proprietor of ripoffreport.com similarly objected to disclosure. For reasons that do not appear of record, it appears that the Wikipedia Foundation failed to respond to its subpoena in any way." Regards, Nsk92 ( talk) 17:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Would somebody from WMF (Mike Godwin?) PLEASE comment here on the notification issue? Specifically, a) why the affected WP users were, apparently, not notified by WMF at the time the release of their IP data was being sought, and b) what you think about changing the WMF privacy policy to include some kind of notification requirement for these kind of situations. Regards, Nsk92 ( talk) 05:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
These are serious questions raised by both sides. I'd suggest that they be raised directly with Jimbo at Talk:Jimbo Wales.-- Onlyjusthisonetime ( talk) 20:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The individuals who know they were affected should probably contact the Foundation directly, by phone or mail:
This isn't a Jimbo thing, this is a legal counsel/Board of Trustees thing perhaps. That still leaves a lot of questions, though, of these other 15 IPs that were released, and if the Foundation knows which users were associated with them. Lawrence Cohen 21:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Thread was getting pretty long, so I've thrown in a section break for easier editing.
Addressing BD2412's comment above: Notification of affected users, without potentially risking their privacy further, would be easy:
Since two people have emailed me, asking if I knew whether I was one of the 16 people, I've been told I am not. -- barneca ( talk) 22:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
A slightly different topic, also related to whether the Wikimedia Foundation will or will not effectively contest subpoenas demanding user information: Per its privacy policy [7], Wikipedia keeps for a time the IP addresses of all those who even look at each page of Wikipedia. If someone files a subpoena with Wikipedia, as Sheriff Joe Arpaio did with Village Voice Media and the Phoenix New Times website in 2007, per Joe Arpaio#Media Raids, demanding the IP addresses of everyone who reads something as well as (per cookies) what websites they had previously visited, would the Foundation meekly turn over whatever of that information it still had in its posession, as they did the 16 IP addresses of editors of the Village Professor article, or would they spend the money to fight it in court, as those two publication successfully did. The privacy policy says the info is kept "about 2 weeks" and is useful in checkuser investigations and in developing the secret statistics of the number of views of each page. Many subpoenas ultimately do not succeed if the recipient chooses to contest their validity. In the case in question, the subpoenas were thrown out when the recipients went to court and challenged their validity: "Judge Baca ruled that the subpoenas in this case were not validly issued." If that information were promptly deleted, perhaps in 24 hours, the question would be moot. This sort of fishing expedition would be the information age equivalent of the Nixon administration prelude to recent Patriot Act excesses in which the Justice Department demanded that libraries keep a list of who checked out books on Communism or radicalism, for possible investigation. If Wikipedia would turn over the info such as Arpaio sought, without a fight, that presents yet another chilling effect. Edison ( talk) 14:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This thread will soon apparently be archived, and no further response from the Wikimedia Foundation's legal counsel Mike Godwin or from Jimbo Wales appears to be forthcoming. Godwin expressed indignation that "bricks and insults" were being hurled by the questions above being asked, but still did not answer the questions. There were vague statements by Wales and Godwin that we fought hard and even hired outside counsel, but any details of what the legal team did have been withheld, apparently on grounds of attorney client priviledge, which the client (Wikimedia Foundation) should certaainly be free to waive. The attorneys for other parties in the incident have released certain legal briefs and motions they filed. We have seen no timeline of when Wikipedia or the Foundation received subpoenas and what response was made. The facts of the incident, and the defacto policy regarding release of identifying information of editors then appear to be that if a subject of a Wikipedia article chooses to hire a lawyer and to file a lawsuit over some claim of libel or some other legal theory that the postings were from a competitor, then the Wikimedia Foundation may or may not respond initially to the subpoenas filed by the plaintiff's attorney, while other websites successfully dispute their legitimacy. Then if the plaintiff moves for a contempt judgement, Wikipedia turns over all information they have, in this case the IP address, and leaves any further legal defense of the privacy of the editor to the internet provider. The editor might not be informed that his information has been subpoenaed or even that it has been released until after the fact. If there are any false or misleading statements in this summary I welcome their correction. Were these actions fully compliant with the published policies of Wikipedia regarding privacy, and if so should those policies be tightned? How can a legal defense fund be established to aid Wikipedia in defending the privacy of its editors to reduce the chilling effect of such incidents on the accuracy and completeness of Wikipedia and associated projects? Edison ( talk) 14:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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A sanity check, please.
Being reluctant to remove mediocre external links from worse articles, but yet unable to pretend that everybody thinks it's hunky-dory to be fed braindead pleas to install plugins that will increase their subjection to advertising, I perpetrated this edit. I believe I acted in accordance with this; but, bearing in mind the awestruck tone of the WP articles written about "luxury brands" (e.g. Cartier SA is a famous [sic] jeweller and watch manufacturer that is a subsidiary of Compagnie Financière Richemont SA. The maison [sic] is known for numerous celebrated [sic] pieces blah blah blah), I'm wondering if there's some obligation to be undeservedly polite about them in the external links department. Nobody's complained yet (it's only a few minutes ago), but did I do wrong? -- Hoary ( talk) 09:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC) ... PS I later performed surgery on the Cartier article. It's still bad, but it's not malodorously bad. -- Hoary ( talk) 10:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Avoid instruction creep ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change. -- VeblenBot ( talk) 17:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
(Notice by Aexus ( talk) 07:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC): I've found this discussion very fruitful, I've gathered all information it produced and declare this issue resolved. See bottom of this section for more details.)
In the article
EVE Online an editor added a source to a topic in a forum that didn't allow public viewing. Readers had to register an account to access the source. However, the forum didn't allow new registrations. That prevented readers that didn't already have an account in that particular forum from accessing and verifying the source. I've found one guide that touches the topic of sites requiring registration, namely the guide
Wikipedia:External links. It has an appropriate paragraph. But since this guide is about the External links section at the bottom of some articles it doesn't apply to sources.
Therefore my question is: Do we accept sources that cannot be publicly accessed (and thus verified)? How should we other editors of the article proceed in this case?
--
Aexus (
talk) 02:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Note: Questions of this nature are more rightly directly to the reliable sources noticeboard so editors expert in that particular area can respond. For this specific question see citing sources which has examples of citing an underlying source through an overlaying source. Wjhonson ( talk) 21:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your opinions so far. It's great to read what you think about the topic. I think I should highlight the source in question. It's a topic in the
EVE Aurora forums. Aurora is a volunteer organisation that helps the developers and game masters of
EVE Online organize in-game events. Technically everybody can access the topic in the Aurora forums. However, one had to apply for a position at Aurora first. To be accepted one had to play EVE Online and meet other requirements Aurora asked for.
Let's say I don't play the game; I'd just like to read the source. I can't. Only members of Aurora can. Yes, the source is accessible - even if it's not accessible for everybody. Does this make a difference in the source's acceptability?
When discussing this issue with a fellow editor of the EVE Online article he wrote (with public accessibility in mind): "It would not be unreasonable for a Hewlett-Packard employee to cite an internal forum, wiki or intranet site for some obscure technical detail of one of HP's products." Technically everybody could access and verify the source. One would have to apply for a job at Hewlett-Packard. But other than that - no problem. I can't wrap my mind around this yet. With this information in mind do you think it makes a difference in the Aurora forum topic's acceptability?
--
Aexus (
talk) 01:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all very much for your input. I've gathered everything we've got so far. I declare this discussion closed and ask you to pursue the two aspects I've split it into. One is the reliability aspect that is now being discussed
here on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard as suggested by
Wjhonson on Sunday. The other is the verifiability aspect that is now being discussed
here on the
WP:V Talk page - also as suggested by
Wjhonson. Again, thanks!
--
Aexus (
talk) 07:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Due to problematic issues around the appointments of checkusers behind closed doors, I've proposed this. Please comment. Thanks, Majorly ( talk) 23:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know what the policy is on userspace being used as a template? Or just transcluding in general? I assume that transcluding within a namespace is OK, but that there are restrictions on transcluding between namespaces? eg. Template namespace is designed to be transcluded everywhere. User namespace can be transcluded within user namespace (eg. to organise user pages and for userboxes). Discussions (the various talk namespaces) are sometimes transcluded to organise discussions. Portals have stuff transcluded on to them, and in effect this includes the Main Page. And so on. But is there anywhere that specifically says that transcluding userspace elsewhere (in this case from userspace to image namespace) is discouraged or forbidden? Carcharoth ( talk) 13:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I have listed it at {{ RFCpolicy}}, but I don't know how much traffic that gets, so, i'll mention it here too: WT:BAG#RFC. — Random832 18:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Clarification on part of the policy on redirects has been requested at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Redirects from foreign languages. Please join the discussion at your convenience. Rossami (talk) 23:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the January 2, 2008 Wikipedia Signpost [1], a company called Video Professor did not appreciate criticisms in a Wikipedia article about it and demanded the IP addresses of registered Wikipedia editors via subpoenas delivered to Wikipedia along with two websites which criticized the company. The two other websites, infomercialscams.com and ripoffreport.com did not provide the subpoenaed info. Wikipedia did, “without a fight” according the article cited from ConsumerAffairs.Com of December 18, 2007 entitled “Video Professor Drops Subpoena, Goes After Wikipedia Users” [2]. This was discussed at Jimbo Wales talk page, User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 31#Wikipedia surrendering users' info without a fight with those complaining about it being told by administrators that that page was not an appropriate forum to discuss it and that their recourse was to write to the Wikimedia Foundation. Wales himself disputed the news report, saying ”It is false to say that we did not put up a fight.” without providing any details of the degree to which Wikipedia did put up a fight for the anonymity of registered users and their IP addresses. The buck was passed to Comcast to fight against revealing the subscriber info for the IP address. Sometimes the IP address itself provides too much identifying information. It appears that the other two sites did successfully avoid providing identifying info about those who posted there, but Wikipedia provided all the info they had, namely the IP addresses. This practice can only have a chilling effect on the willingness of Wikipedia editors to add even well-sourced information critical of organizations or companies who can afford to and who are willing to engage in litigation similar to S.L.A.P.P. tactics to prevent negative information being posted in Wikipedia. S.L.A.P.P. more specifically refers to comments made in reference to public policy issues, and is defined as litigation “frequently filed by organizations or individuals to intimidate and silence critics or opponents by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense so that they abandon their criticism or opposition.” The discussion was then archived at Wales’ talk page, so that appears not to be the appropriate forum to discuss it. I feel that this is an important policy area for discussion, and this seems like an appropriate forum. How hard did and should the Wikipedia legal staff fight to avoid turning over all the identifying information they have about registered editors (i.e., their IP address) when persons or companies do not like the information posted about them in Wikipedia articles? The article cited from consumeraffairs.com says “It's unclear why Wikipedia forfeited the IP addresses. A Wikipedia spokesman returned ConsumerAffairs.com's call but did not have the information requested. The individual with specific information regarding the subpoena did not return a phone call and e-mail.” It is time for the powers-that-be at Wikipedia to fully address this important issue, and for us to discuss the degree to which the secrecy of our IP addresses should be defended by the foundation in such cases.. Edison ( talk) 14:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Were the users/IP editors/whomever notified by the WMF that their information was released? Lawrence Cohen 16:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I've been invited to comment here because of a post I made to Jimbo's talk page about this incident. More Wikipedians need to volunteer to resolve conflict of interest issues. This lawsuit is an example of what happens when the community fails. Durova Charge! 19:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
This is why, A: if you want privacy, you should use Tor, and B:Why wikipedia must not blanket ban all traffic from Tor nodes. -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 05:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I have seen no response to the issue of why Wikipeda reportedly a) failed to respond in any way to the initial subpoena, and then later b)coughed up the IP address demanded by the aggrieved article's subject, unlike the other two websites who never did. Is this what we should expect of Wikipedia? Did other communications or legal processes take place behind the scenes? Should we expect that Wikipedia will fold like a house of cards if any person, company or group takes offense at any editing and tell them all they know about the real world identity of the editor who has in some way offended the aggrieved party? Does Wikipedeia have legal representation, and what are the policies for defending the privacy of editors? Edison ( talk) 03:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh wow, this is really screwed up. --
Ned Scott 05:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Was the IP address given up to the cable company without contesting the supoenae because the cable company would also then have to be challenged to release their own client personal data? What if the IP address itself had personally identifying information, which is not uncommon? Would the challenge have been made to keep it in then? Lawrence Cohen 15:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Would it be possible for the WMF counsel to clarify if this has ever happened before, with information being released? When, and how many times? Lawrence Cohen 15:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
<undent> It might be good to canvas editors and particularly legally trained editors for their ideas. I also think this highlights the potential value of a separate legal warchest, and fundraising to meet legal threats and challenges. I personally might be more inclined to donate to a legal warchest than a general Wikimedia Foundation fund. This is a good thread to get people thinking about this kind of thing. Comments?-- Filll ( talk) 21:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
3
Here are a few interesting bits of information from the Dec 24 Public Citizen's motion opposing the extension of time [6]. First, it appears that the IP addresses of sixteen WP users were released. See page 10 of the motion: "in late November it apparently obtained IP information with respect to the sixteen Doe defendants whose pseudonyms are set forth in the subpoena to Wikipedia". Here is a quote from pages 5-6 of the motion: "Upon checking the docket, however, Leonard discovered that on December 17, VP had filed a motion to extension of “time to serve the defendants.” DN 10, proposed order. The motion recited that VP had obtained identifying IP information from Wikipedia after filing a motion to hold Wikipedia in contempt for failure to respond to its original subpoena, apparently without any notice to the posters." Admittedly, this comes from a somewhat indirect source, but the text does seem to indicate that at the time no notice was given by WMF to any of the WP users whose info was released. Another interesting quote, from pages 4-5 of the motion: "The record does not reflect it, but it is our understanding that the proprietor of ripoffreport.com similarly objected to disclosure. For reasons that do not appear of record, it appears that the Wikipedia Foundation failed to respond to its subpoena in any way." Regards, Nsk92 ( talk) 17:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Would somebody from WMF (Mike Godwin?) PLEASE comment here on the notification issue? Specifically, a) why the affected WP users were, apparently, not notified by WMF at the time the release of their IP data was being sought, and b) what you think about changing the WMF privacy policy to include some kind of notification requirement for these kind of situations. Regards, Nsk92 ( talk) 05:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
These are serious questions raised by both sides. I'd suggest that they be raised directly with Jimbo at Talk:Jimbo Wales.-- Onlyjusthisonetime ( talk) 20:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The individuals who know they were affected should probably contact the Foundation directly, by phone or mail:
This isn't a Jimbo thing, this is a legal counsel/Board of Trustees thing perhaps. That still leaves a lot of questions, though, of these other 15 IPs that were released, and if the Foundation knows which users were associated with them. Lawrence Cohen 21:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Thread was getting pretty long, so I've thrown in a section break for easier editing.
Addressing BD2412's comment above: Notification of affected users, without potentially risking their privacy further, would be easy:
Since two people have emailed me, asking if I knew whether I was one of the 16 people, I've been told I am not. -- barneca ( talk) 22:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
A slightly different topic, also related to whether the Wikimedia Foundation will or will not effectively contest subpoenas demanding user information: Per its privacy policy [7], Wikipedia keeps for a time the IP addresses of all those who even look at each page of Wikipedia. If someone files a subpoena with Wikipedia, as Sheriff Joe Arpaio did with Village Voice Media and the Phoenix New Times website in 2007, per Joe Arpaio#Media Raids, demanding the IP addresses of everyone who reads something as well as (per cookies) what websites they had previously visited, would the Foundation meekly turn over whatever of that information it still had in its posession, as they did the 16 IP addresses of editors of the Village Professor article, or would they spend the money to fight it in court, as those two publication successfully did. The privacy policy says the info is kept "about 2 weeks" and is useful in checkuser investigations and in developing the secret statistics of the number of views of each page. Many subpoenas ultimately do not succeed if the recipient chooses to contest their validity. In the case in question, the subpoenas were thrown out when the recipients went to court and challenged their validity: "Judge Baca ruled that the subpoenas in this case were not validly issued." If that information were promptly deleted, perhaps in 24 hours, the question would be moot. This sort of fishing expedition would be the information age equivalent of the Nixon administration prelude to recent Patriot Act excesses in which the Justice Department demanded that libraries keep a list of who checked out books on Communism or radicalism, for possible investigation. If Wikipedia would turn over the info such as Arpaio sought, without a fight, that presents yet another chilling effect. Edison ( talk) 14:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This thread will soon apparently be archived, and no further response from the Wikimedia Foundation's legal counsel Mike Godwin or from Jimbo Wales appears to be forthcoming. Godwin expressed indignation that "bricks and insults" were being hurled by the questions above being asked, but still did not answer the questions. There were vague statements by Wales and Godwin that we fought hard and even hired outside counsel, but any details of what the legal team did have been withheld, apparently on grounds of attorney client priviledge, which the client (Wikimedia Foundation) should certaainly be free to waive. The attorneys for other parties in the incident have released certain legal briefs and motions they filed. We have seen no timeline of when Wikipedia or the Foundation received subpoenas and what response was made. The facts of the incident, and the defacto policy regarding release of identifying information of editors then appear to be that if a subject of a Wikipedia article chooses to hire a lawyer and to file a lawsuit over some claim of libel or some other legal theory that the postings were from a competitor, then the Wikimedia Foundation may or may not respond initially to the subpoenas filed by the plaintiff's attorney, while other websites successfully dispute their legitimacy. Then if the plaintiff moves for a contempt judgement, Wikipedia turns over all information they have, in this case the IP address, and leaves any further legal defense of the privacy of the editor to the internet provider. The editor might not be informed that his information has been subpoenaed or even that it has been released until after the fact. If there are any false or misleading statements in this summary I welcome their correction. Were these actions fully compliant with the published policies of Wikipedia regarding privacy, and if so should those policies be tightned? How can a legal defense fund be established to aid Wikipedia in defending the privacy of its editors to reduce the chilling effect of such incidents on the accuracy and completeness of Wikipedia and associated projects? Edison ( talk) 14:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)