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Wikipedia:Code of conduct ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
That page is a soft redirect, and the code of conduct itself is oriented towards the foundation itself (Wikimedia staff and members of the board of trustees) than to the comunity of users. The only part that may be considered as directed to us would be the part about discrimination, but we already have Wikipedia:Etiquette and policies and guidelines of behaviour about that (however, it isn't directed to us, it's directed to them, who are told not to tolerate such things).
The edit summary "if you're going to call it a policy, do so outright" does not seem correct either.
In short, this page is not a "policy", it's an internal rule of the foundation, wich is not aimed to common editors. It does not even exist here, but just as a soft redirect. And the main intention of it in a manner regular users may apply, is already covered by existing policies. I think the "policy" template should be removed inmediately. MBelgrano ( talk) 03:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
It can't be "an English Wikipedia policy"; it's not on English Wikipedia and not under English Wikipedia's control. I agree that tagging this as policy is not a good idea. — Gavia immer ( talk) 03:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Code of conduct ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a policy. It was previously marked as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I am unsure what template to use {{ db-f8}} or {{ nowcommons}}, they both do the same thing.And if it really doesn't matter then why have 2 templates with just surface differences.-- IngerAlHaosului ( talk) 10:47, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Not sure whether this is a misc. or a proposal. In any case, let's get some discussion happening here. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 20:39, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering what people think of dynamic IP editing -- the general feeling is this is generally okay, no? Does it matter if the IPs are editing in a controversial/ARB restricted area? Does it matter further if the IPs are coming from a user who has almost certainly edited under another account or accounts? And if that did matter, would it be necessary to first establish via CU beyond any reasonable doubt that the IP was linked to a named account, or could the WP:DUCK test in some instances apply? Thanks to all for reading. IronDuke 21:47, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (adjectives) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (verbs) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a discussion about bibliography articles taking place here. Suggestions being made are of far wider significance than to the specific page in question, therefore any constructive contributions to the conversation would be greatly appreciated. Neelix ( talk) 21:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
A request for comment has been posted at WP:Civil, concerning abuse of the one-line Edit Summary. This proposal also bears upon WP:NPA and WP:EW. Please take a look and comment. Brews ohare ( talk) 22:29, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
If an user ("A") were to revert an edit by "B" because it deleted part of the article (removing text, references, etc.), and by reverting it he also removed valid content added by B in the same edit, would he be coupable of blanking himself? In other words, would A be forced to recover parts of B's edits when reverting, for not being accused of removal of content?-- Ultimate Destiny ( talk) 17:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Currently WP:V is worded to put the burden of finding a source for unsourced information solely on the editor who wants to put the information back and not on the shoulders of the editor who removed the information based on the belief that it is unsourced. I believe this needs to change and is contradicted by the sentences later in the same WP:V that state that it is good practice and preferred that editors who want to remove unsourced information first try to find a source that confirms or denies it. I know I've brought this up in many discussions, and it could even be considered a "perenial" but really something should be done. The point of "citation needed" templates is to help identify what sentences and information needs a reference, so that those who might be able to find one can put one there. If the information is just removed then those who may have an interest in the article wont know that information is out there and just needs someone to find the information. Too many times I have seen these editors who go around trawling through articles they know nothing about looking for citation needed templates and removing the offending information without checking first for five-minutes in Google and then off like Superman to the next article to delete some more information. I say they are "trawling" because just like in fishing they trawl with a big net and yes catch things they are supposed to (fish, or wrong information that could never be cited) but also they catch happy dolphins (good information that helps the article, but just needing a citation). Citation needed doesnt mean "delete the information" it means "find a citation please". IAR is not to be ignored itself! If the information, even without a citation helps explain and clarify and makes the article a better article then it should stay under IAR. IAR is not a cop-out, it is the number one rule that overturns EVERYTHING that can be recited from our "rules". WP:V needs to be written to adhere to the spirit of Wikipedia and IAR and to stop these whole-sale trawlers who's intent is to destroy information (but within the wording of our guidelines) and who do not have the intent to add to the articles or improve them. Camelbinky ( talk) 21:27, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I've mocked up a template to address the bad use discussed. It was a quick job and probably needs a copyedit for flow. See {{ Uw-vremoval}}.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 00:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
And how do yo expect to find and remove incorrect information? Not only deliverate hoaxes or lies, but also rumors, common misunderstandings, mistakes, outdated information, local perspectives in disregard or global ones, etc. If we work on the asumption that if a statement has reliable references then it must be "true" enough for us to say it, then the principle that false information won't be able to provide such references is just a result of formal logic. But we won't have very frequently reliable sources confirming that a "false" statement is indeed false: if it is a marginal or minority point of view with no supporters, or just an invention (deliverate or not) of some common people, reliable sources are likely to dismiss the issue completely. In fact, the cases when we would have such sources would be exceptional, not the rule.
Or to say things a little better: that a statement does not provide references does not imply it to be false, it implies that we can't be sure enough that it's true. In such cases, I support removal: if the statement was unreferenced but true, it can be easily restored once the needed sources are found and provided. MBelgrano ( talk) 03:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree that we should rather add more strength to WP:BURDEN rather than weaken WP:V even more. The problem is that if you place the burden on the editor trying to remove unsourced info, then people could put false/POV info into an article, then claim, " WP:V allows for unsourced info until you prove it wrong." Like it has been said, there are now 3,000,000 articles on WP, so we should start to focus on better quality articles. On some articles, it is harder to find sources for true statements, but I think that the vast majority of "citation needed" tags are from lazy editors who ignore that Verifiability is one of the pillars of WP. And let's be honest, if you are a veteren editor on WP, and you are adding unsourced info often, you should know better, and find sources. Besides, when I read an article that has 10 or so citation needed tags, I basically begin to question the whole article. While I agree that editors should check into info before deleting, it is a dangerous slope when you change WP:V to prevent people from removing unsourced info. And if you get angry that someone removed a great thought you added to the page, well, use that energy to find a source instead of starting an edit war. (Not aimed at anyone in particular) Angryapathy ( talk) 13:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Are such results valid inline cites? They're currently being used in Tsarist autocracy. A guideline link, if there is one, would be helpful. Novickas ( talk) 16:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
[ [1]] was deleted. I was wondering if it was appropriate since I had listed a non free rationale. Wuld there be a way to use it. The image can be found here : [2]. Thanks-- Die4Dixie ( talk) 03:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
We would like to ask you to stop the vandalism actions and intervention that have been recently directed towards this page. Thus, there are numerous third party sources such as National Geographic, US Congress Documents and famous journalists' reports, quoted on the page. 10 years of teaching at the most prestigious Romanian University is a long period for anyone, as a Professor. The presence of the material is mainly justified by the role played by Professor Munteanu in the changes occurred in the Eastern Europe in 1989 - 1990. Also, the large quantity of information is justified by his international activities and presence. It is obvious that these vandalism interventions have nothing in common with the norms of an encyclopedia and we consider them as attacks originating from propagandistic areas and believe such interventions should not be allowed in a free encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bogdan Munteanu ( talk • contribs) 08:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Belgium/Brussels naming conventions ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
An RfC has been posted here concerning recommendations for use of the one-line Edit Summary in reverting contributions. Please take a look and comment. Brews ohare ( talk) 17:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
WP:LINKSPAM says that adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. I have just noticed that Cybercobra is adding hundreds of links to articles about published books that link to Online Computer Library Center, such as this link to the article Dragons of the Dwarven Depths. In theory, the link is being created to an online catalogue service. In practise, this shadowy private company, whose ownership and management seems murky to me, is acting a shop front for online booksellers, such as Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Should we be allow spamming of links to semi-commercial sites whose ownership and management is not transparent? Who is benefiting from this linking? Worse still, is this some sort of scam? -- Gavin Collins ( talk| contribs) 09:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
|oclc=
parameter of {{
Infobox Book}} by looking up OCLC#s programmatically based on ISBNs. --
Cybercobra
(talk) 10:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes OCLC is good to use when ISBN fails (as are a number of others) but I think it's really good that this possible abuse was spotted and brought here. And yes I did know that Dewey is owned, it is a great shame, ISBNs are also administered by a for-profit company, which means the full information about assignment ranges costs money. Rich Farmbrough, 21:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC).
←(unindent from above)← ISBNs with dashes to delimit the internal fields (region-publisher-unit-checksum) are indeed unambiguous. Unfortunately, because the length of the publisher field (and hence the range of the unit field) can vary, ISBNs recorded without the dashes are not necessarily unambiguous. Increasingly, this is the way they are most commonly recorded, especially for ISBN-13s (since it's just an EAN with a second interpretation). For instance, Google Books nearly always only has the dashless form of the ISBN in their summary view, even when they have a copyright page available in the book text with the dashed form plainly recorded. This can be a problem, though it's a small one - ISBN + title is practically always a unique identifier even when the ISBN alone isn't. — Gavia immer ( talk) 01:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
|oclc=
in the {{
Infobox Book}}. Any linking is performed automatically by {{
Infobox Book}}. Therefore, all links could be removed simply by changing {{
Infobox Book}}. Also, the appropriate place for any complaints about the links is on the
Template's Talk page.
HairyWombat (
talk) 19:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I, or any other admin, can easily change the template if/when there is consensus to do so. -- ThaddeusB ( talk) 17:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
( edit conflict) (out) - Why would he need to stop it? Adding the OCLCs to infoboxes is quite helpful to the reader. I have no idea why this is such a big deal; for the most part, I agree with LeadSongDog ( talk · contribs)'s comments above ("The link to the OCLC is a benefit to the project."). I do not think that it would cause more confusion; in fact, I think that an argument could be made that Special:BookSources—what ISBNs link too—is more confusing. This is the reason I have ISBNs and OCLCs side-by-side in such FAs or As like Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes#Bibliography or North Carolina class battleship#Bibliography. — Ed (talk • contribs) 17:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Where a correctly-formatted ISBN is already in place, adding OCLC does seem like needless clutter since a WorldCat link is accessible through Special:BookSources and Worldcat is perfectly capable of retrieving titles by ISBN. – Whitehorse1 03:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Notice: The issue of whether/when the Infobox should generate hyperlinks to WorldCat is now being discussed at
Template_talk:Infobox_Book#Worldcat_Weblink --
Cybercobra
(talk) 17:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
A few fallacies, mainly understandable exist. The following should clarify.
I think the more important question as to why Wikipedia should be used as platform to create hundreds of links direct to the Worldcat website has been ignored, perhaps by those who do not want those links removed. There is no reason why Worldcat should be given special treatment by linking to their site in this way, as we don't do it for any other non-commecial or comercial cataloguing service. It is not appropriate to add these lists on two grounds:
Wikipedia should be not be providing this service for Worldcat, as we don't do it for any other non-commecial or comercial cataloguing service. For instance, Wikipedia does not support direct links to the Library of Congress website via a LCCN, even though it is one of the largest book collections in the World. -- Gavin Collins ( talk| contribs) 15:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
The following thread was originally listed under Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Should trademarked sports logos be used as icons in university infoboxes? but has since been split into its own thread
I also think we ought to treat trademarked images with the same "legal respect" that we do for copyrighted images, to further the goal of making out content as freely usable (for any purpose) as possible. — Andrwsc ( talk · contribs) 20:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
We can't treat trademarks the same as copyrighted material because the legal protections for each are completely different. And we shouldn't try to anyway, because the field of trademarked content is far too vast, encompassing many words and images of common property, and regardless of whether they are presented as "logos" in specific fonts (so don't get hung up on that). As noted above, trademark protection is very context- and function-specific; you can't commit trademark infringement simply by copying a trademark with nothing more. Wikipedia content by its very nature only uses trademarks nominatively—to identify a trademarked product or service or the trademark holder. This is not trademark infringement, and in fact it is something even competing commercial companies can do legally, as in comparative advertising. The presence of those trademarks in Wikipedia content in no way makes it less free to downstream users, who would really have to go out of their way to commit trademark infringement with Wikipedia content. Postdlf ( talk) 03:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
On Commons, the approach is to be concerned only about copyright, trademark is usually mentioned n grey cases but dismissed: if an image "seems" copyrightable but it actually isn't (like File:Google.png), it's because it's trademarked but not copyrighted, and the result is keep.
In any case, if there were strong reasons to discuss the trademark bit, I suggest to do it on commons as well. Regular user in there, even if not lawyers, generally know at least "a bit of everything" of copyright law and may provide more well-sourced answers than wikipedia users who may have expertise on other topics but not on that. MBelgrano ( talk) 03:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
This is just ... a bad idea. Trademarked public domain images are just that - public domain. They have a couple minor restrictions on them, but none that really apply to us or anyone copying an article from us. Besides that, they're about as free as can be. Postdlf sums it up well. This is just pointless copyright trademark paranoia that would hurt content quality far more than it would improve free-ness.
Mr.
Z-man 04:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The one thing I throw in here in the trademark/non-free approach is that we need to seek a means of using logos in a manner than is not systematically biased. Say we have two predominate companies as articles along with numerous pages for their products, the products themselves lacking new logos. The only difference between these companies is that one employees a logo that is simply block text and completely fails the threshold of originality, while the other is highly stylized and clearly copyrightable. Now, while one could argue that it would be fine to put the free, trademarked company logo on each of the product pages, this capability is not something that can be enjoyed by the other company with its non-free logo, per our WP:NFC policy. Thus, we should discourage the use of free, trademarked logos through the reasoning of "just because they can be", and only consider the use of logos - free or otherwise, when they are truly adding something to an article. -- MASEM ( t) 15:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
The following thread was originally listed under Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Should trademarked sports logos be used as icons in university infoboxes? but has since been split into its own thread
Because I am not sure how to express these opinions on various topics without forking into oblivion, I'm just going to summarize.
Images that are trademarked and copyrightable fall under the protections of copyrighted images. Images that are trademarked but ineligible for copyright are PD images. They can be used and are used as PD images within Wikipedia. Trademarks are protected under the Trademark Act of 1946 and several additional amendments (U.S.C. §§ 1051-1127.1). This act provides guidance and remedies for both trademark infringement and trademark dilution.
Trademark infringement occurs when a non-owner uses another’s trademark in a way that causes actual confusion or a likelihood of confusion between the marks. It explicitly prohibits the use of marks that are "likely to cause confusion, or to cause a mistake, or to deceive." Unless someone uses a trademark with the intent to violate those explicit conditions, I can think of no use of an uncopyrightable trademark within Wikipedia which would violate these conditions.
Trademark dilution involves use of a trademark within a "commercial context." This means that the use in question must actually be in the stream of commerce and could therefore make a profit for the user or reduce the profits for the owner. Dilution occurs when someone uses a another’s mark in a commercial context in a way that lessens the power of the owner’s mark to keep its the reputation of a user and how that affects the public’s perception of the mark. Again, there is nothing short of intentional misuse of a logo that would cause problems for us.
Therefore, I think it behooves us to annotate clearly in policy that logos can be used in articles about things related to the subject and in user boxes, however, these cannot be used in any manner indicating endorsement or approval without the trademark's onwer's explicit permission. These logos being used in an informative manner with no monetary goal reflect the law's intent.
Again, we need to explicitly define this. I'll see what I can come up with and propose it here in a bit. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think it does a disservice to show logos in a manner inconsistent with being displayed large enought to show appropriate detail. Accordingly, I think we should limit their degredation in size to a minimum of 100px. We also should consider fixing the overuse of logos in infoboxes with some clearer guidance. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the university/school articles should have the seal at the top and the school graphic at the bottom (which seems to be the norm). All other logos should be elsewhere in the article (if applicable). Given the prominence sports teams and their identies as prominent school ambassadors, the primary logo for the sports teams is optional, but appropriate, in the athletics section; This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
...should use the most current logo (regardless of whether it is free or not) in the infobox. This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
...should use only PD images in the info box. It seems every sports team has at least one {{ PD-textlogo}} image. I'm still working on making sure they are uploaded and properly annotated, but people are welcome to use my current list (work in progress). — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
...may not use copyrighted logos. Other images are left to project preferences and should be standardized as much as possible. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Should just be used in accordance with Wikipedia:Trademarks#The_use_of_graphic_logos. No other guidance is necessary. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Could this term be changed as it is very confusing, not instantly understandable, and could mean even no opinion at all, even "an inoffensive point of view", which would be riduculous. I suggest: "encyclopedic point of view".
MacOfJesus ( talk) 22:31, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
In the Article page, of course, this is so. All I am saying is, "Neutral point of view" is too confusing and not instantly recognisable. I am sure there is a better term out there, somewhere. Any suggestions?
MacOfJesus ( talk) 20:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for offering a suggestion! We all have a good idea what is meant, but the term!
MacOfJesus ( talk) 13:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
When my first History Teacher was trying to explain this to me, I was confused then and I think still am over this term.
I think "terse" would be a good concept substitute for "neutral" ?
MacOfJesus ( talk) 14:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I was attempting to refrain from commenting here, because it is rather silly to try and change the name for one of the longest-standing, and prevasive, policies on Wikipedia. But I think I should add my two cents. First of all, "Neutral Point of View," is just a term, and is meaningless without the entire policy that it describes. While one may have a different connotation for the word "neutral", the policy itself lays out the full meaning of the term. Secondly, neutral does in fact work very well. If a country is neutral in a war, or if someone is neutral in an argument, it means that no side has been taken, which is exactly what NPOV means: Do not side with either point of view. Third, terse means, "concise," or "brief," which does not fit at all. If you find "Neutral Point of View" confusing, read the entire policy, and if you are still confused on certain points, then ask for clarification of those points. Angryapathy ( talk) 15:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for coming in on this point. I am aware of what neutral point of view means. Being familiar with historical discourse for many years, I think I know what the term stands for, by now. "Terse", just does'nt mean "brief". The early ancients in our ancient languages concentrated in encapulating the essence of thought in terse verse. This is true of the ancient Gaelic, the ancient Greek, in particular, and certainly of the Latin.
I feel this term is not adequite or sufficient in encapulating the essence of thought here.
Do you have a better one?
It is relatively easy to see how rediculous our arguments are, another thing completely to make a substitute suggestion.
At this stage I would want to turn to the Latin.
What do you propose? positively?
During the Second World War, for example, Ireland was Neutral during the War, but not impartial. Should the historian writing history be impartial or just neutral?
MacOfJesus (
talk) 22:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
My proposal is to leave it the way it is. I think your example of Ireland in WWII perfectly explains neutral. Aiming for a neutral POV doesn't mean you are completely impartial. Sometimes you have to forget which POV you prefer and aim for a balance of the POV's, thus allowing the article to have a neutral point of view. Angryapathy ( talk) 13:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I propose it be changed, as the term is misleading.
MacOfJesus ( talk) 17:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:Outlines#Failed?
The Transhumanist 17:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, the mass of outlines created by this project in the last year or so are a disagrace - the template that is being used includes many violations of the MOS and other guidelines (such as don't include section headers that are empty, don't let templates masquerade as text, don't put redlinks for main/further reading hats, etc), and, more importantly, it appears that many of the people working on these editors are very unfamiliar with the topics. This has led to information on some of these outlines being wrong or misleading. I've been reverted when trying to clean up the areas I'm familiar with (both MOS fixes and content fixes) by some of the more overzealous members. To me, it feels like these outlines are being shoved down everyone's throat with no consensus for their existance, no consensus that if they do exist they should be structured as they are, no consensus on how they should be named, and no consensus as to what they include. For such a massive project, community consensus absolutely should have been attained first - a few large RfCs could have forestalled a lot of the complaints that keep popping up. Karanacs ( talk) 20:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I question the utility of these outlines and suggest that broader consensus that could be reasonably gauged via AFD/RFC/whatnot would demonstrate that aside from the very few users active in creating these outlines, they would have little to no support. I suggest that the outliners consider making their outlines either on a seperate wiki (wikiversity, I believe, would be happy to host all the outlines), or in their project namespace. I further insist that any further outline moves/redirects/whatevers be consider controversial - pages should not be Xed without positive consensus to do so. Hipocrite ( talk) 18:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Should there be guidance? No. Transhumanist: this is your own crusade, why would you need any external guidance? Oh yes, the old good "write content not outlines" but you've probably heard it a hundred times... NVO ( talk) 19:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Someone wondered how many editors had edited the "outlines". Members of the category "Outlines" beginning with "Outline of" (about 2/3 of them) have 2831 different editors. Rich Farmbrough, 22:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC).
An editor has asked me on Talk:American Pit Bull Terrier for the policy that states that text shouldn't be duplicated between articles. For some reason I was under the impression that we don't allow for duplicate text, but I can't find the specific policy. Is there one in place (like in MOS) or was I incorrect in my thinking? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
PROBLEM: I faced a problem when a RS web reference died. Now it is dead and thus can not be verified easily. PROPOSED SOLUTION: I came across the site Webcite. I suggest having a wikiProject or some kind of archive here to archive reliable web references when an article reaches GA, A and/or FA class. The reliability is established by the reviewers in the GA, A, FA reviews. NOTE: I thought this was the best place to discuss this. Please move to relevant Village Pump if this is not the place.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:21, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
This was discussed last week - now archived at [9]. IMO the editors who commented were aware that the question pertained to Gbook search results, since P.'s post mentioning that appeared before the other editors weighed in. Piotrus restored them [10] on the grounds that last week's discussion here referred only to Google searches, not Google book searches. Comments? Novickas ( talk) 14:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems like over-referencing to include references for that sort of thing anyway.
— Carl ( CBM · talk) 15:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Following discussion on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid editing in June of this year WP:Paid was created as a guideline/overview page of existing practices. Some editors wishing to enact a more stringent policy have, to state it diplomatically, since made efforts to replace it with a proposed policy page. We now have two pages Wikipedia:Paid editing (guideline) which attempts to overview current practice and Wikipedia:Paid editing (policy). They are very different in tone but perhaps are not mutually exclusive. First question - is it acceptable to have both a guideline and policy page? I have asked this but have not gotten a response. If it's not OK where is this stated so we can refer to that as a moving forward jump-off. If it is OK are the current page titles acceptable? If not what would be better? All help appreciated. -- Banjeboi 14:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
At, present a common mantra is that blocks and bans are not to be used as punishment, but in order to prevent further disruption. I think this idea is in need of some clarification. One interpretation of the mantra is that it is perfectly OK for a banned user to return using a sockpuppet, as long as they continue making useful edits which benefit the encyclopedia. Even though a number of people whom I respect hold that view, I respectfully disagree with them, even though the literal wording of "only to prevent, not punish" does seem to support it.
Punishment has a number of different reasons behind it:
When we say that blocks and bans are not for punishment, I think we really mean that they are not means of revenge (retaliation/retribution). The reason I disagree with turning a blind eye to ban-evading sockpuppets is that the general deterrence factor is eroded. A ban is a severe sanction because it means you are kicked off Wikipedia. If the sanction were that "you have to make a new username to continue editing", that sanction loses most of its teeth for someone who has no intention of respecting the ban, and as a result we wind up with a de facto legitimization of the disruptive behavior that led to the ban in the first place. "Is harassing someone worth getting kicked off the website?" v. "Is harassing someone worth losing your current username?"
The blocking policy already says that deterrence is one of the purposes of blocks. I feel that the banning policy should specifically mention general deterrence of disruption as one of its purposes. It should also explain why evasion with a sockpuppet to make useful edits is prohibited.
Using blocks and bans as a deterrent is a punitive measure, and we should not try to kid ourselves by saying otherwise. They are used to sanction poor behavior ("punishment"), even if they are not used to wreak vengeance ("retaliation"). Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
NOTE: I've been around awhile, but never to the Pump ... I'm here because of the underlined text from a talk page template. Please let me know if Help desk is the more appropriate venue for this question.
“ | This is not a forum for general discussion of [X]. Any such messages will be deleted or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about [X] at the Reference desk, discuss relevant Wikipedia policy at the Village pump, or ask for help at the Help desk. | ” |
I have been asked what (specific) policy is the basis which allows the collapsing of portions of talk page discussions (by administrators or others).
The general explanation I gave was:
“ |
|
” |
But there was a request for specific WP policy (page/section) applicable to authorize collapsing (of anything by anyone) on an article talk page.
Any specific places in policy that specifically covers collapsing? (Again, if the wrong venue, please direct me.) Proofreader77 ( talk) 19:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
While categorizing uncategorized pages from the backlog of WP:CATP, I ran across PIRA/PIRAlededraft, which is a draft version of Provisional Irish Republican Army. It shouldn't be deleted, as there is a great deal of discussion on its talk page about a controversial subject. To where should the article and its talk page be moved? To its creator's sandbox? Many thanks in advance for all advice and pointers to policy. MuffledThud ( talk) 22:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
I went ahead and moved it. Anomie ⚔ 03:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, first sorry for my english, i am a french contributor. On french WP we created a page in which the purpose is to compare Featured Articles between french one is others. For instance, we have broadsheets to compare which FA on en: is not yet translate into fr:, or if it is. Thus, we can have a look on the advancement of the translations. We can also suggest to contributors good translation so as to enhance FA on our WP. Here is our main page.
My question is simple : is a sort of this project exists on english WP?
thanks a lot, -- Prosopee ( talk) 11:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a question about whether extra-contextual (I'm sorry, I don't know if that's a real word, but bear with me) information is appropriate for inclusion in an article on a narrative such as a book or film. For example, say you're watching a movie and there's a mysterious character in the background. The movie never specifies his name or who he is. But then a novelization of the movie comes out, which specifies that the mystery man is actually an accountant named Bill. My question is, should the article on the movie refer to the guy as Bill the Accountant? My personal feeling is that the answer is no, because that's a misleading representation of the film itself; the article is, after all, about the film, not about the novelization. At most, there could be a footnote on the character, that he is specified as Bill the Accountant in the novelization, but if such a footnote is included, it should be made clear that the information is not found in the movie itself. Thoughts? Minaker ( talk) 21:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
This joke may meet Wikipedia’s
criteria for speedy deletion because it is not
funny.
If this joke does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, please remove this notice. If you created this joke and you disagree with its proposed speedy deletion, please add:
|
I propose a new policy concerning jokes on wikipedia. I have come across far too many users who believe their jokes are funny. It is, I believe, a time to put a stop to this. Bad jokes only make me groan, and I groan enough in real life, so do not want this to infest wikipedia. I propose we set up a panel of bad jokes monitors to ensure this policy is adhered to. I would suggest allowing three bad jokes in a 24hr period then a block. Thank you. Jack forbes ( talk) 16:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Not a good idea. See past discussion on WT:CSD for why speedying hoaxes are a bad idea. The same points apply here. It might look like an article made as a joke, but determining this with surety require extensive knowledge of the relevant field. And as such requires community discussion. For articles that are obviously created in bad faith we already have a CSD. Taemyr ( talk) 08:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
This evening, I went to Wikipedia to look up something, and I was encountered by this character assault on my user page. I need to know what steps to take.
The following was the message that this person wrote to me.
Journey "Niceness"
You can "yipe yipe yipe" all day, but it won't help. Experienced editors tire of these whinings very quickly, and crave only entries from contributors with BALLS, not cherrystones. Don't be that guy who needs to be drop-kicked like an insufferable lap-dog. Try also not to be too offended by edits that may hurt your precious feelings, but simply happen to coincide with the truth...
In short: toughen up, or be prepared to cry yourself to sleep on a daily/nightly basis. This isn't for kindergarteners...
"I've got your name... I've got your ass!!!"
I didn't include the person's name. I have no idea what this person is referring to. I wrote on his user page a few minutes ago that I feel that an explanation is owed to me as to what this is all about. Will somebody please help me out on this? It is an offensive and harassing character assault that is totally uncalled for. I do not need to be greeted unexpectedly with such verbal abuse. This is highly offensive. Not only that, but I have no idea of what this person wants from me, or what he is referring to. I couldn't even begin to imagine. Not only that, but the last line was obviously meant to intimidate me. Well, he did a good job. There are creeps crawling all over the internet, but it doesn't help Wikipedia's image to have these kind of things going on. Will somebody please give me some advice as to what actions can be taken? Runt ( talk) 23:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Many like to throw around in arguments that Wikipedia's standards are "verifiability not truth", and while that may have worked when the Community was young, perhaps we should change that wording and clarify it a bit on our policy and guideline pages. While I do understand keeping such an idea in spirit, we should clarify the policy so it does not stand out so boldly, it is probably the number one quote bandied around that editors dont like to apply IAR and Common sense on, especially when one proposes to show that a reliable source has gotten the information wrong by showing primary sources contradict the RS. I propose that "verifiability not truth" be given less prominence and more clarification that if it can be reasonably shown that a RS has gotten something wrong then it is more important to have the truth than to have sourced false information. "Reasonably shown" meaning through other sources, even primary (which are unfairly discriminated against in Wikipedia), or through common sense that a consensus of editors have agreed on. As an example I will give a non-controversial example from my own editing experience-
"Truth" in this context is about controversial truths. Is X political development exactly as we see it in the media, or is there a conspiracy behind it? The policy says: for Wikipedia, it's as we see it in the media (even if ultimately the media happens to be lying). When the conspiracy/real truth/whatever surfaces into the media, then and only then we can talk about it. MBelgrano ( talk) 01:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Camelbinky, it seems that the issue you're raising here is really about when primary sources may be reliable sources for particular statements of fact, and what to do when sources conflict. You simply claim that the primary source you have found verifies an earlier date than the secondary source another contributor had found. The whole point of insisting on what is verifiable is that we don't just want a bunch of editors arguing back and forth about what they "know" to be the truth without anything concrete to prove the point either way. Until you had found that primary source, did you have any reason to believe that the secondary source was inaccurate? It's still about what you can prove using more than just your word for it. Postdlf ( talk) 01:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
The problem is that "truth" can vary from person to person. So how do we reconcile disputes when there are multiple "truths"? We could take a poll of editors, but that would be susceptible to outside influences, and people with fringe beliefs are often more vocal than the mainstream, both of which could lead to disproportionate results. So, instead, we mainly present what the mainstream sources say, but in the interests of NPOV, include other views on the "truth," giving them appropriate weight based on coverage in reliable sources. Mr. Z-man 01:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Part of what we as editors have to do is evaluate what kind of claim a source is making. Is it making an assertion of fact, which is or isn't true, or merely a characterization, which is or isn't persuasive? And we can also evaluate whether a reliable source is reliable for the statement it is being used to verify. Is it reporting or editorializing? Is it venturing outside its area of expertise? Is it internally inconsistent? Postdlf ( talk) 03:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
It definitely needs to be modified, but for different reasons than those prevented above. There are various notable happenings that don't receive enough western attention for media verifiability. If you're trying to write an article on something a little more obscure, it's a nightmare trying to find media coverage that deals with the subject in question in more than a trivial manner. This limits the scope of wikipedia.
Please see Wikipedia talk:Signatures#Forbid "text-shadow" in signatures. Regards So Why 14:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
This link [11] shows the net result of 23 edits to a single page. 22 of these edits where either non-constructive edits (usually blatant vandalism) or those edits being undone. I'm not saying I have a solution but I do think that we've got a big problem when there are pages where less than 5% of the edits actually contribute to the article content.-- RDBury ( talk) 14:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I have two questions I can't seem to find answers for:
1. If I have bought a painting or other original artwork am I allowed to use a photo of it (which I have taken myself) in a Wikipedia article? If there are any restrictions - what are they?
2. If I bought some photos from a photographer years ago who is now assumed to have almost certainly passed away by now, am I allowed to use them to illustrate an article? And, as above, if there are any restrictions - what are they?
Many thanks for any help you may be able to give.
Yours sincerely, John Hill ( talk) 22:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you both for your helpful answers. I will contact the Media copyright people for spefic answers about specific works of art and photos. Best wishes, John Hill ( talk) 13:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
A large percentage of Grbpradeep's uploads are problematic images: either copyrighted images that don't pass our nonfree content criteria or even claim to, or not-necessarily-copyrighted images without evidence of permission and/or evidence of authorship. Just today, I've listed three of his files at FFD, tagged several more under WP:F6, and voted in another FFD nomination that included several of his images. See his talk page for details. You'll see there that many deletion warnings have been issued, and some editors have given more specific warnings and explanations of our copyright policies, but nothing substantive has been done. When does the time come that we say, "Thanks for your helpful photographs and text, but you've violated our copyright policies too many times"? Nyttend ( talk) 15:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is a technical or a policy issue, so I have posted it on both Village Pumps.
Within the last 24 hours, seemingly random underlining with dots has appeared all over Wikipedia. (Is there a name for it?) In my opinion it destroys the readability of Wikipedia articles. It makes words and phrases jump off the page. As far as I can tell, it serves no useful purpose at all, but if people really like the extra linking function there's got to be a less annoying way to mark the links. Can we revert back to yesterday on this thing? HowardMorland ( talk) 17:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
hi, i have a question about user identity. i will try to explain without using specifics.
there is one article on wikipedia. (it is also a BLP). the subject of the article (call it 101) has several anti "101" websites on the internet. one of the anti-101 writers (editor A) (with his own anti 101 websites) has a wikipedia acct and he has revealed his name and websites on his user page (which i think is line with wikipedia policy). there is another editor (editor B) on wikipedia who shares the same name as one of the anti-101 writers (with several of his own anti 101 websites) but has not given any more information about himself. some of the edits by editor B seem like original research, and the topics seem similar to those he posts on his own website.
many of editor B's comments towards other editors also seem rude, patronizing and condescending. i dont want to harrass the editor and am unsure how to proceed as it is difficult to deal with these editors. (as it seems that their hostility towards subject 101 spills onto the wikipedia article and the editors involved on the page)
i was wondering what to do or how to proceed.
J929 ( talk) 21:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks!
i tried the COI board and it was said that unless editor A or B is pushing a product or their own websites it is not COI... and to try NPOV.
i'm under the assumption wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, and content included in an article have to be from a reliable source (and properly referenced). As person 101 is a BLP and is the subject of the wikipedia page, editor B has been making edits about books about person 101. ie instead of discussing person 101 in the biography section, he discusses books about him/her. i asked editor B to move the info to a more suitable section as a biography should only deal with the subject of the article. These edits about books are in line with (same as) the topics he discusses on his own website, where editor B questions the sources (already deemed valid by wikipedia) and books which discuss person 101. Editor B says these sources are only catering to claims made by person 101. hence inclusion of information about books about person 101 in the biography section seems to me like speculation, arguement and a synthesis based on his own reserach and analysis...
"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions."
WP:OR
WP:COI says "Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of any article they edit, particularly if those edits may be contested." if editor B doesnt fully disclose his full identity (ie his anti 101 websites), is this a form of COI? how then is it determined (or can it be, in not harassing the editor) that editor B is the same person who holds anti 101 websites? (it seems more than coincidence that editor B and the person who holds the anti 101 websites share the same name -- among other similarities). on their websites editor A and B say that they are linked and have communications ie. send each other emails etcs... outside of wikipedia. does this constitute a "group" as defined in the WP:COI page?
i will also look into Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts.
any suggestions on how to proceed is most helpful...
Thanks!
J929 ( talk) 21:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks!
will try WP:OR. if nothing changes, i'm not sure how to proceed as theres no concrete "evidence" or facts to prove that editor B is the anti 101 writer (with the same name). will update how things progress...
J929 ( talk) 21:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
it seems like things are the same. i was wondering is there any wikipedia body to ask to look into the identity of editor "B"? to pursue the issue myself may be harassment but if editor B doesnt fully disclose his identity then is it a violation of
WP:COI? ("Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of any article they edit, particularly if those edits may be contested.")
(i do contest his edits and there is concern among other editors about his identity)
not sure if this is the correct way to proceed.
any suggestions are most welcome...
Thanks!
J929 ( talk) 17:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
i dont think checkuser applies as although another opinionated editor has recently appeared i dont think it is a sockpuppet issue...
other editors have expressed concern about editor B and the similarities they share with the anti 101 writer (same name being one of them...). what dispute resolutions can you can suggest?
the subject is Sathya Sai Baba. i'm not alledging that any of the users have returned. my concern is that one of the anti 101 writers has stated that all the anti 101 writers are "internationally connected", meaning they have ties outside of wikipedia and have agendas and tactics they use. (will provide links if needed) and hence the concern that wikipedia is simply being used by this group as a platform to propogate their agenda and views (and the original research they have accumulated over the years). they dont seem to edit to improve the article, only simply editing to keep their interests alive with a "foot in the door" on what they believe should be included in the article (even though one of the main edits by editor A violates BLP policy in the sources he quotes... there has been edit wars over this source even after it was decided by a univolved groupd of wikipedia editors that the source was a BLP violation)
having read the remedies about the rulings you provided, it seems that editor A has violated the remedy by using a source/website run by fellow anti 101 writer in his edits. (the remedy (via the link you provided) states "It is inappropriate for a user to insert a link to a website maintained by the user (or in which the user plays an important role)."
what action can be taken against editor A for this violation?
will provde links if needed...
Thanks
J929 ( talk) 16:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Is it not bizarre that people would want to remove most of the main article about the most revolutionary, educational and participatory software ever invented?
There has been an attempt for around 4 years to delete all or nearly all (depending on the mood of the involved editor) of Comparison of wiki farms. See the 4 deletion discussions. The last 2 were for keep. They are linked from the top of Talk:Comparison of wiki farms.
As to the arbitrariness of the mood of the deleting editors see some of the latest edit summaries by Cybercobra who initiated the latest round of removal of much of Comparison of wiki farms.
The full version of the article (October 13, 2009) before the latest mass removal of most of the article:
Diffs: one. two. Edit summaries:
Note the arbitrary value of the Alexa traffic rank number used to remove most of the article. From around 50 wiki farms to around 10 wiki farms.
Some major work was done by Michaeldsuarez recently to update all of the Alexa info. Keeping Alexa updated was the main complaint of Ronz who is the main removalist involved.
I don't have much time to spend on this, so others need to get involved. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 16:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
So if I understand the dispute, those wanting to remove certain listings want to restrict the list to entries that are notable and would presumably merit their own articles, correct? What inclusion standard is urged by those wanting to keep those entries under dispute in the comparison article? Postdlf ( talk) 19:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Seems wrong to remove years of work - WP:EFFORT. I really don't understand the debate here. On one hand we have Note the arbitrary value of the Alexa traffic rank number used, then 6 million was chosen as a mostly arbitrary number. So what if there was one at 5,357,869? Why 6 million? Why not 5.4 million? If their traffic changes, will the 6 million number change? We do not need a policy to resolve this, and we especially don't need a policy that just picks an arbitrary number to use. The short answer is that there isn't a magic number for every article (though such a policy would only apply to a handful of articles, another reason not to have a policy for it). This is a normal content dispute that needs mediation, not a forced resolution through policy. Mr. Z-man 20:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
The language presented by the proposer ("attempt to extinguish... Is it not bizarre..." leads me to believe that the proposer has failed to assume good faith. I suggest that until such time as the proposer can assume good faith, the article be kept in the form he does not approve of. Hipocrite ( talk) 14:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a delicious story in the Guardian today about UK newspapers getting hoaxed with ludicrous stories that they obviously didn't even try to verify before publishing. Of course it is served up with lashings of schadenfreude as there is nothing a newspaper loves more than seeing a competitor get shafted, even so, it is a serious issue and I thought I should mention it in case it has any implications for the WP:RS policy which tends to treat newspaper coverage as reliable. Even if it doesn't, it is amusing and it is a nice object lesson on why verifiability matters. Starsuckers celebrity hoax dupes tabloids -- DanielRigal ( talk) 22:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't think articles should give away plot details of future episodes of TV shows. I think there should be a spoiler policy to this effect. The current spoiler policy needs clarified. Giving details of episodes that have already aired is fine, as a reader who is reading an article when they know they aren't up-to-date in their watching should expect they might come across spoilers, but to give away plot details about future episodes means that it is never safe to read an article about a tv show even if you have seen all the latest episodes. Big Way ( talk) 05:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
The following information which I've hidden in a collapsible navbox appears in the House (TV series) article in a section called Main characters:
I think something should be done to avoid information like this appearing randomly in an article. Perhaps it could be put in a separate article called Upcoming events (House TV series) or some such until it has actually happened and then it can be put in the main article. Big Way ( talk) 18:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I have yet to watch an episode of Lost, so I'd appreciate it if y'all don't ruin my suspense until I can borrow the DVDs. Postdlf ( talk) 19:24, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Surprised noone mentioned this upon User:Big Way's example, but there in fact used to be spoiler warnings in WP -- however, after MUCH heated debate, as well as perhaps a bit of being extra bold, caused their loss. In other words, WP went from being warning-laden to warning-free and it's very doubtful it'll go back, all things considered. Just remember that WP documents info, in a supposedly academic way. Spoiler warnings really don't fit in with that goal. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ ( talk) 14:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Revision deletion ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Night_of_the_Pencils#The_kidnappings seems to me a clear violation of WP:NOTMEMORIAL, yet another editor insists on re-adding the non-notable names. Could I get further opinions? Who then was a gentleman? ( talk) 01:47, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Per WP criminal notability guidelines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(criminal_acts) :
"Notability of criminal acts:
Criminal act includes a matter in which a crime has been established, or a matter has been deemed a likely crime by the relevant law enforcement agency or judicial authority. For example, the disappearance of a person would fall under this guideline if law enforcement agencies deemed it likely to have been caused by criminal conduct, regardless of whether a perpetrator is identified or charged.
Victims:
A victim of a crime should normally only be the subject of an article where an article that satisfied notability criteria existed."
Therefore, since the crime is notable (moreover in regards to dissapearances, as WP's own example provides), then the identity of the victims is notable, and does not constitute a memorial. Losthistory ( talk) 01:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if abilities such as undo should still be allowed for anonymous IPs. I don't know if this has been discussed or is 'heretical' to the idea of Wikipedia. We have bots to watch for vandalism, and are looking to the review of articles, do we still need to allow full access for anon IPs? Is it time to review? Alaney2k ( talk) 20:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Not being interested in wiki-bureaucracy, I've kept my anonymity, despite the fact I've been on wikipedia for years, and have witnessed the perpetual bloat of rules and regulations - to the point where now, one needs not argue, they need only cite an appropriate regulation without considering the spirit. This idea's another globule of saliva in the face of the spirit of wikipedia - an encyclopedia where ANYONE can easily contribute, even if it's just correcting the grammar of a statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.24.53 ( talk) 18:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, what I wanted people to think about, is what should be allowed from the start, and what should be allowed after 'moving up' shall we say to a named editor. I've seen software in my experience that grows with your experience. After becoming a named editor, there are a few privileges, such as revert. So the idea is not unfamiliar here on Wikipedia. I was thinking about the idea of the undo and how you could just as easily be abusive with the undo as a new user. Well maybe we should extend the idea of the controls on an anon to a newly-created user. What if we have a simpler interface for newly-created users, that makes it harder or not allow undos of other's work until you've edited a few times? Insert a few 'are you sure' prompts on the undos and we might dissuade vandals. But just a few. Only at a level that we can feel comnfortable with. And that is what my point is, are we comfortable with a small level of blockage for newbies and anons? Like putting in 'are you sure' prompts and making edit summaries mandatory?
I feel we can move in this direction. I think we can become more graduated in permissions, and as part of this be more friendly. Is that a fair trade-off? Alaney2k ( talk) 23:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I visited the entry for Albert Speer, which contains the following: Albert Speer (born Berthold Konrad Hermann Albert Speer[1] and pronounced /ˈʃpɛɐ/;
I understand that Wikipedia has a pronounciation policy but when I, a native English speaker, holder of a law degree _and_ a Masters in English, don't have a clue about how to pronounce "Speer" after reading the entry, there is a problem with the policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.183.92.50 ( talk) 18:41, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
[[Wikipedia:IPA for English|IPA pronunciation]: /ˈʃpɛɐ/
so it would at least be clearer where you can go for help with IPA; right now, it isn't obvious that the pronunciation is linked. But better still, IMHO, is to nuke them. --
Floquenbeam (
talk) 20:29, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
(undent) Fact: There is no one system of pronunciation that works perfectly for all languages and dialects and is easy to understand. Fact: IPA is the most unambiguous system available. Given those, I think there's a case for including IPA pronunciations. If there are more than three major (regional) pronunciations, there's probably a case for some prose explaining it in its own section, or a footnote. If there are three or fewer, it's probably fair to keep it in the lead. We gain from diversity as long as we don't overdo the length (and if we can overdo the length, the footnote case is often worthwhile). I like the respelling system, and personally I'd be happy with an overlapping combination of the simple respelling and unambiguous IPA. Pronunciations probably don't need strict sourcing, though BLP might apply to some extent for names, e.g. Neil Gaiman, but names are usually much more sourceable if they're ambiguous enough to need pronunciation. I don't think this is an area where we have serious problems. {{ Nihiltres| talk| edits}} 04:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
The IPA pronunciation of Albert Speer as given above (until I correct it in a few) is factually incorrect. It is the German pronunciation, but linked to the English IPA key. It needs to either be made English, or linked to the German IPA key.
A few misunderstandings above, made worse by this bad example. First, the IPA is used in English dictionaries, including the greatest of them all, the OED. Second, the English IPA key we use works equally well for all major English dialects, though it's missing a few distinctions of Scottish etc. It's been designed so that you don't have to speak the same dialect as the transcriber. If you do, it's been transcribed incorrectly. As for sourcing, we do have sources for many names. Sourcing problems are on a case by case basis, not a problem for the system itself.
Van Gogh is a good example of a pronunciation guide that became overly intrusive and was turned into a footnote. I agree that it is often disruptive in the lead; on the other hand, with counter-intuitive pronunciations it is often best IMO to set the record straight right away, so the reader doesn't go through the article with an incorrect pronunciation in their head. In the case of Speer, I don't see any reason for the IPA to be in the lead rather than in a footnote, but that's a decision for the people getting the article to FA status.
We have both a respelling system and an AHD-type system for use on WP, though by common consensus they're secondary to the IPA. The respelling system can even handle the Scottish fur-fir-fern distinction that our IPA convention cannot, but it has trouble with simple words like "vice". The AHD-type system is going to be gibberish to most people outside the US.
As for people, mostly Americans, whose knowledge of the IPA is on par with their comfort with the metric system, that's what we have the keys for. Click on the IPA and you'll be taken to a page that explains it to you. (Note that in order for them to be unambiguous, respellings and the AHD also need to be linked to keys.)
We've been working on & off on a pop-up to remind people of the IPA for English phonemes, but there are technical difficulties that have prevented us for doing that satisfactorily. If any of you can figure out how to fit a summary on a mouse hover-over window, that could be very useful. kwami ( talk) 05:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I rather object to the "nobody knows it" trope. A very large number of users of the English WIkipedia are people who have learned English as a foreign language, and ALL of them made use of the IPA in their dictionaries. -- Evertype· ✆ 17:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
How should the lead section of the policy page on policies and guidelines be worded? Opinions sought at WT:Policies and guidelines#Language getting more abstruse.-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Some people confuse prominence with notability in discussing Wikipedia practice, policy, and guidelines. I try to disambiguate between the two topics. Please help, if you'd like.
Wikipedia:Notability vs. prominence
ScienceApologist ( talk) 19:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Should the current "guideline" page be removed so it can be replaced with a proposed policy page and what weight should be given to the only community-wide request for comment?
At part of the core issue is we have a proposed "guideline" page which attempts to overview current practices and a proposed policy page which seems to want to take a more aggressive tone on the issue. Can two pages be developed in tandem? More eyes would be appreciated. -- Banjeboi 01:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I saw at the Gaza War and the Battle of Kosovo articles a (KIA)-sign for muslims who were killed in action, instead of the usual †-sign. The argument given at the Battle of Kosovo was, that "muslims have their own sign." This might be true, but the old Romans at the Battle of Carrhae and the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, the greek commander at the Battle of Marathon or the Japanese commander at the Battle of Peleliu weren't Christians either, and I guess they would have had their own signs as well. And still they got crosses or, better, daggers behind their name. Moreover, according to the Dagger-article, this sign is used in military history to be "placed next to the name of a commander who is killed in action"; it doesn't give any exclusions for it.
So my question is: should WP always use the †-sign, or should we use all kinds of symbols for every group that has another sign for people ho were "kiled in action"? Jeff5102 ( talk) 12:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Hm. If they do have their own sign, what does it look like, and is it in Unicode? -- Evertype· ✆ 17:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
If interested, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics#Outlines in general and List of logic topics. Is it me or is this dispute getting increasingly bitter? Can something be done to nip it in the bud before it degenerated into mindless move warring?-- RDBury ( talk) 22:05, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Related ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Kosovo-related articles) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Naming ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I didn't know how to spell the man's name, so I decided to help others who might want to find it.
What's the proper hatnote for the top of Carl Meyer? Because there are two different disambiguation pages for two different spellings of the name. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Done. Thanks. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK counties) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject/Naming convention ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)/Counties ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Deletion of articles on living persons ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Is it permissible to place the table of contents of a book in an article about that book or is that a CV? RJFJR ( talk) 16:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I would like to gather some opinions regarding the style of the introductory sentence in articles on animals. In particular, the difference between bolding and not bolding the italicized scientific name of a species with a well-known popular name. For the purposes of this opinion poll, forget current policy and guidelines, and merely focus on which style you think looks better. For example, which do you prefer, the top or bottom version of the following introductory paragraph from the "Blue Whale" article?
The Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine mammal belonging to the suborder of baleen whales (called Mysticeti). Long and slender, the Blue Whale's body can be various shades of bluish-grey dorsally and somewhat lighter underneath. [1] There are at least three distinct subspecies: B. m. musculus of the North Atlantic and North Pacific, B. m. intermedia of the Southern Ocean and B. m. brevicauda (also known as the Pygmy Blue Whale) found in the Indian Ocean and South Pacific Ocean. B. m. indica, found in the Indian Ocean, may be another subspecies. As with other baleen whales, its diet consists almost exclusively of small crustaceans known as krill.
or
The Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine mammal belonging to the suborder of baleen whales (called Mysticeti). Long and slender, the Blue Whale's body can be various shades of bluish-grey dorsally and somewhat lighter underneath. [2] There are at least three distinct subspecies: B. m. musculus of the North Atlantic and North Pacific, B. m. intermedia of the Southern Ocean and B. m. brevicauda (also known as the Pygmy Blue Whale) found in the Indian Ocean and South Pacific Ocean. B. m. indica, found in the Indian Ocean, may be another subspecies. As with other baleen whales, its diet consists almost exclusively of small crustaceans known as krill.
You can see the changes in the context of the real article here and here and I encourage you to look at those before deciding your opinion. When you vote, a quick note why you liked the one over the other is fine but please save your longer arguments for later as this is just intended to be a quick straw poll. Jason Quinn ( talk) 20:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Recently there as been a series of "Comparison of" articles sent to WP:AFD. Now some of this seems to be a bee in the bonnet of one particular editor, but on the other hand I see these tending to fall into one of two classes:
I think it would easier on everyone's namespace to insist that the first type prefer the "List of" rather than "Comparison of" convention. We have plenty of tabular lists and I'm also seeing some probably inadvertent content forking due to the two naming possibilities.
The second type is the one that I think will be controversial, but I do think we need to deprecate this type of article. The problem I see is that these almost invariably have original research and notability issues. The first is more obvious: it seems to me that the argument is coming from the author(s) not from some external authority; they tend to read like research papers, well-cited or not. The second is a more subtle problem, but it seems to me that in most of the non-list cases I've come across it's not been all that clear that anyone beyond the author really cares about the comparison being made. I mean, you could write an article named Comparison of Beowulf and Gilgamesh, and it can be heavily cited; but what you will get is someone's term paper.
I think at least we need some sort of guideline discussion about this, similar that which one assumes has already been done for lists. Mangoe ( talk) 14:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
(undent) My spin on this is that the comparison should be notable in its own right before we have an article on it, otherwise the article risks WP:OR. SDY ( talk) 18:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
The software comparison pages primarily just present the data and let the user do their own comparisons. Those should be fine (though the wiki farms one is a little borderline with its generic "features" section; something more like Comparison of wiki software would be better). However, given the subjective nature of literary analysis something like Comparison of Beowulf and Gilgamesh cannot easily be condensed into lists of factual comparisons, would almost certainly be a haven for original research, and should be avoided. Mr. Z-man 18:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia currently has the process pages for Help:Merge and WP:Split, but no clear guideline in place to ensure that contributors understand the attribution requirements for reusing text within Wikipedia. It is brushed on at WP:C, but not clear, and I believe that expanding its coverage there would muddy the waters of that policy's primary purpose. I would like to propose this new guideline to govern Help:Merge and WP:Split and to which contributors may easily be pointed when they inadvertently violate copyright by failing to attribute (and this happens all the time). Feedback and assistance at that talk page in reaching consensus would be very much appreciated. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
U.S.C. Title 18, Part I, Chapter 33, § 701 provides fines and up to six months' imprisonment for unauthorized use of US gov't insignias. The USFWS website's "Digital Rights, Copyright, Trademark, Patent Laws" notice page, citing restrictions published in the Federal Register (Vol. 49, No. 30, page 5387), says that any use without permission is prohibited and that the logo may appear only on official FWS documents (and that §701 provides for enforcement). Nevertheless, the USWFS logo is widely used on WP and other WM projects (the Commons image file page includes an explanation of the restrictions on use). Should it be?
I understand this is not a copyright issue as the Service logo is in the public domain. But Wikipedia:Logos#U.S._government_agencies states that "[u]se restrictions of such logos must be followed and permission obtained before use." Should it be removed, for example, from Commons:Template:PD-USGov-FWS and Commons:Template:FWS Image (which I created)? -- Rrburke( talk) 16:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
49 FR 5387
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Fish and Wildlife Service
AGENCY: Fish and Wildlife Service, Interior.
February 13, 1984
Official Insignia Change ACTION: Notice of Official Insignia Change.
SUMMARY: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service official insignia designation published in the Federal Register on September 5, 1978 (43 FR 39444), is hereby cancelled. This notice changes the official insignia of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The Service insignia was changed in 1978; however, publication of this change was overlooked at the time. This action accomplishes the official designation of the insignia now in use by the Service.
EFFECTIVE DATE: February 13, 1984.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Jim Gillett, Chief, Division of Refuge Management, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Washington, D.C. 20240, (202) 343-4311.TEXT: SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: The insignia depicted below is prescribed as the official insignia of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Department of the Interior. [See Material in original]
In making this prescription, notice is given that whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses this insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph or print, or impression in the likeness of this insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, without authorization from the United States Department of the Interior is subject to the penalty provisions of section 701 of Title 18 of the United States Code.Dated: February 6, 1984.
Rolf Wallenstrom,Acting Director, Fish and Wildlife Service. [FR Doc. 84-3863 Filed 2-10-84; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4310-07-M
When a template is subst'ed, does CC licensing not require that the name of the template be included in the comments e.g., <!-- template:test5 -->
? Otherwise, the template's authors' work goes uncited, violating the attribution clause of CC. I am worried, for example, about {{
RD medremoval}} and {{
DRV bottom}}. As a note, it's my estimation that
templates with very basic syntax (e.g., {{
Hidden archive bottom}}) would be excluded.
Magog the Ogre (
talk) 13:48, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)/Usage of American ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Politeness Police ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm having some difficulty resolving an image license for File:StarAirServiceIreneIrvine.jpg. Currently, it's licensed as a non-free image with an OTRS pending ticket. My question is whether the picture which is currently licensed as non-free needs to be released under a free license in order to stay on wikipedia. Does the image qualify as a non-free image?
The following is discussion from my talk page...
I have rec'd a series of emails from Permissions regarding my File:StarAirServiceIreneIrvine.jpg photo. Brief history - I obtained written permission for use of photo from owner (Univ of AK Fairbanks) & uploaded the pic to Wikipedia (NOT Commons) per your directions. ww2censor promptly marked it for removal requesting an email from owner (see my talk page). I rqst'd email from Univ of AK Fairbanks which they sent to me w/ copy to permissions. We thought this resolved the issue but then the emails from permissions to me started. If you like I can email you the complete series of emails, but following is the latest which describes the issue, which I don't know how to resolve:
[Ticket#2009101010027301] Authorization to use photo in a single Wikipedia article The email you have sent us regarding permissions reads (this is the email Univ of AK Fairbanks sent to permissions at my (OLD33) request:
"We don't have a signed agreement of use on file for you but that is standard when a photo is copied from Alaska's Digital Archive [on-line archive: vilda.alaska.edu], rather than being purchased from us. You checked with us before going on-line with your article, requesting permission to use the image. That permission was granted. You appropriately credit the collection and the institution, and acknowledge copyright. This meets the requirements for using photographs."
Images and other media are allowed only if they are under a free license (such as the above and certain other Creative Commons licenses). You can see the allowable licenses at < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags/Free_licenses>. If you provide us with a clear statement that the copyright holder is releasing this content for redistribution under an allowable license, then the content may be used on Wikimedia projects. The email template at < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSENT> can be used if needed. It is essential for Wikipedia that an exact license is agreed upon by the copyright holder which in this case may be the Alaskan Digital Archives but appears to be 'verso' which the archives state is the author of the image. Any ambivalence on this point is not acceptable. We sincerely apologize for any frustration caused by this. However, Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons respects the rights of copyright holders and has very stringent measures put in place to protect their rights. Please be assured that nothing will happen to the photo as long as the OTRS pending tag is on the page. Thank you for your understanding! Please see < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights> for more information. Yours sincerely, Elena Salvatore
I will appreciate your help!! Old33 ( talk) 15:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, considering that the image is being used as a non-free image, a free license may not be needed. What Elana is trying to point out is that the University didn't release the image under a free license.However, the image is currently licensed as non-free so I don't see it requires a free license. I will ask at WP:VPP what to do...but from what I see, you should point out that the image is currently licensed to be non-free, and that the point is to keep the image on wikipedia without requesting more permission. I personally don't really "approve" of the tone used at the end of the email...its a bit too cold....I will help you get this resolved once and for all. Smallman12q ( talk) 00:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Any advice is appreciated! Smallman12q ( talk) 00:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if anybody had done a study of differences in the policy and guideline pages of the different wikis? It strikes me that there must be something to learn from doing such a comparison every so often and it would tend to keep them in alignment as far as best practice is concerned. I don't suppose it really matters too much if the consensus is different in some particulars everywhere if they act with some common sense but it is a slightly disturbing idea when one goes to edit in a different one. Dmcq ( talk) 15:02, 25 October 2009 (UTC) By the way there seems to be a rather small and odd selection of other language equivalents to this page. Dmcq ( talk) 15:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
There was an RfC here which I closed as consensus to make this change. This closure was then questioned both by reversion and comments here. Following an ANI thread I was advised to bring it here to get an independent view. Dpmuk ( talk) 16:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
There are still some problems over this dispute despite more editors getting involved. I've reported the issue to AN/I to see if a there's edit warring or similar going on but it can only be useful if there are some more opinions on the issue. Dpmuk ( talk) 16:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Preparations are ongoing for the 2009 Arbitration Committee Elections, which will be held in December. The first step in the process is generating a list of General Questions that will be submitted by template to all candidates in this year's election. Questions may be broad and philisophical in nature, or may deal with a specific incident or case from the past year (or prior). General questions may not deal with an individual candidate or candidates - All editors will have a chance to ask specific questions or one or more candidates directly, once we actually have candidates.
The submission of questions is limited to editors eligible to vote in the election (You may use this utility to check your eligibility.), but all editors will be invited to discuss the candidates, once we have candidates to discuss. Questions should be submitted at The General Questions page. If you have additional questions or concerns regarding the question process, please ask here. Thank you for participating. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 12:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death, but the use of the word "football" to mean "soccer" on first reference on the Main Page today is gnawing at me. Now based strictly on Wikipedia:MOS#Opportunities_for_commonality, the term used, especially on first reference, should be the term that is unambiguous and common to all varieties of English: "soccer." Now many British patrons of the sperical-ball sport cringe at that word, so the awkward compromise term "football (soccer)" was created. Editors of pointyball articles always use "American football" on first reference. The standard should be the same for soccer articles. The soccer people might say the meaning is clear from the context, but that's only the case if you're used to seeing the word football meaning the round-ball game; if you're from a pointyball-playing place, it would certainly make you do a double-take. And if we accept the argument that the meaning of "football" should be clear from the context in this case, why shouldn't pointy-ball editors use "football" by itself on first reference in one of their articles? Wikipedia style should state that either "soccer," "football (soccer)" or "American football" should always be the first-reference term. -- Mwalcoff ( talk) 23:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
(undent) The in-article disambiguation of "American Football" vs. "Association Football" is helpful to the reader the first time the term "football" is used, but I agree that sometimes it's painfully obvious from context (i.e. in a picture caption of a biography's subject in uniform) and need not be explained. It should probably be wiki-pipe-linked the first time it's mentioned in an article as a confusion-killer of last resort. SDY ( talk) 15:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is useless to discuss this question. Almost every country except USA uses football as soccer. American is so proud of everything, and do not want to change. That’s fine. But everyone should respect other people’s cultures and habits. I like both American football and national football very much. So when I talk with American, I use soccer referring to national football. I just say “football” to mean national football when I talk with others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eeeeflying ( talk • contribs) 02:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK stations) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I would like to hear if anyone has any opinions on possibly updating or changing Wikipedia:Article size as many of its suggestions seem out-of-date and many articles are in violation of letter and/or spirit as currently written; even though the Community through practice has pretty much ignored the limit. I work mostly on municipalities and regions, so those are the examples I will give between 65 and 80- Albany, New York, Syracuse, New York, Providence, Rhode Island, Hartford, Ct, Rochester, New York, and Buffalo, New York are all more than twice the 32 kb limit that gets notification of size on the edit window; most larger cities are four or five times the 32 kb limit, (including some that are FAs]]- New York City (over 100kb even with every section having a split off, and sometimes that split off has multiple splitoffs of its own, such as the history section), Toronto, Chicago, Atlanta. If we take the wording on the wp:article size page at face value and to the letter with no common sense applied then all those articles named would need the "too long" template. Too many editors take the signal of that warning on the edit page as a reason to slap that template on the article. There is a footnote on the wp:article size page that tells you how to find the "readable prose" size, but even with that the current wording of the policy relies on alot of common sense, and as common sense is of short order around Wikipedia and IAR is not respected very much- the only result I can think of is for a rewrite, or a consensus opinion here at the VP (policy) that will give more detail on how the "too long" template should be used. Camelbinky ( talk) 22:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Talk page ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
The category of the 5P page is "policies and guidelines" but the page is not labeled as a policy nor as a guideline. I've seen people state that "policies flow from the 5 Pillars", but that cant be because WP:V and the other big major policies all predate the pillars, the 5 Pillar page was created by one editor in 2005. I understand it is put with other "principles" in a box at the bottom of all policy pages, but the second one listed in that template is itself clearly labeled as an information page. My personal opinion is that the 5P are nothing more than an information page that lists what happens to be common across all policies and that the 5P flow FROM policy instead of the other way around. I am curious what other's opinions are. I'd rather we have everyone state their opinion instead of people arguing about each other's opinions because that tends to stifle and discourage new people from coming in and stating their opinion; so while there isnt anything to "vote" on as there is no proposal I am proposing, it would be nice if we just had everyone state their own feelings on how they view the 5P without others judging or trying to say "your wrong". Camelbinky ( talk) 23:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
The way I see it (which I know is incorrect but still useful): the Five Pillars form a "constitution" of sorts, a mission statement. Policies ("laws") are written based on the authorities and principles in that document and give the practical implementation of the principles. Guidelines and the MOS ("regulations" or "standard operating procedures") are typically not directly tied to the five pillars in themselves, just established and respected interpretations of the policy and more subject to variations. By that logic, any guideline or policy should be able to be traced back to the five pillars. Again, that's just how I look at it, and given the humor targeted at corporate mission statements (set it to music!) it's probably not a big deal. SDY ( talk) 03:09, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Suppose in a WP:BLP article an editor A looks suspicious - meaning his edits looks like he is working for a group trying to push its agenda in to the Wikipedia article where that group is directly involved. Lets say that the Editor A seems like a paid editor implementing the groups agenda in to a particular wikipedia BLP article - What should be done is such a scenario?. Radiantenergy ( talk) 04:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I wanted to raise a question about whether it is appropriate to have pages in the "Wikipedia" namespace ( project space) that discuss projects that use Wikipedia material but are not officially affiliated with Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Currently there is at least one such page at WP:Semapedia, and there is an open MfD for a user page that is very similar and might be moved to the project space. I want to emphasize that I am not recruiting for people to come participate in the MfD (although of course all interested editors are welcome as usual). Rather, the discussion there led me to wonder about the general issue of whether there should be pages of this type. I am not talking about pages that discuss non-Wikimedia projects in contexts that specifically relate to maintaining Wikipedia, such as WP:OUTLET and WP:FORK. I'm talking about that are dedicated to describing a single, unaffiliated project that uses Wikimedia material in some way. Should we have such pages, and if so, what types of content and inclusion criteria should there be for them? If there is an established guideline around this type of material, please point me to it. I did not see any clear mention of this concept (positive or negative) at any place I thought to look, such as WP:PRJ and WP:NS. -- RL0919 ( talk) 23:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Thinking about the general issue some more, maybe the most constructive thing would be for those interested in these related-non-affiliated projects to start a WP:WikiProject (if there isn't one already), which can then host these description pages as sub-pages, and perhaps serve a coordination point for linking Wikipedia with these projects. Permanently living in userspace, or living in Wikipedia: space without obvious purpose, is not ideal. (Of course any projects sufficiently notable for mainspace should have articles anyway.) Rd232 talk 17:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
A discussion about whether of not the infobox books template should include outside linkage from the OCLC number is posted here. If this issue matters to you please stop by and include your comments. Thanks. -- 69.226.106.109 ( talk) 06:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Can someone point me to policy, guidelines or essay articles which help answer the question of when an topic warrants a dedicated article, vs. when it would be better as a section of a larger topic. Beyond WP:N, and WP:RS of course.-- RadioFan ( talk) 12:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure who I need to contact or if this is even the right place, but I recently came across a book being sold on Amazon.com that seems to be a collection of Wikipedia articles, some of which I created. The book is selling for $79 and it is stated it "Ships from and [is] sold by Amazon.com". This does not seem legal, especially since the three listed editors are profiting from my hard work. Here is the link to the book:
If you click on the editors' names, you will see a huge listing of books that are ripped directly form Wikipedia. I am obviously not the first person to notice this. See this link for instance:
What can be done about this? Some kind of legal action should be taken here a.s.a.p! -- Ghostexorcist ( talk) 20:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
All I can tell from the covers is that it says "High quality content by Wikipedia articles." I doubt they list every single person who has ever edited the articles. Also, from reading various blogs, I get the feeling there are many people who buy the books believing them to be written by scholars. The statement about Wikipedia is very small and could easily be missed by a prospective buyer. -- Ghostexorcist ( talk) 21:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a related question perhaps some can help me with. I am local history buff of the Albany, NY area (New York's Capital District, I have started and contributed to a great deal of articles about the history, geography, etc of this area. What if I decide that I would like to write and have published a book regarding this area? I have put in alot of work finding sources and putting information on Wikipedia for free, and perhaps I would like to use that hard work in a more constructive manner for my checkbook? Obviously I wouldnt want to just take the Wikipedia articles and put them in a book, but obviously I'd use the same sources I used for those articles, and my writing style is my writing style so the book would come out to be similar to much of what I have written on WP. So would I have to put a disclaimer on my hypothetical book, which would then preclude anything I put in it from then being used by another Wikipedian even if I find something new to put in the book; the entire book would be "tainted" and not usable as an RS even if something in it was never used in Wikipedia in the first place if I have to put a disclaimer in it recognizing Wikipedia, because if even a few editors in the minority view say its tainted it will end up being tainted just as a "mirror site". If this is the case then I might as well stop all editing on Wikipedia and just work on publishing a book which I'll make money on. Why go to all the trouble and hard sweat and not have the opportunity of using it to get paid? The editors on here who do photographs for Wikipedia articles always have the opportunity to sell their photographs because they still own the photographs. Why cant I sell my knowledge and skill at finding and putting together interesting history of the region? Camelbinky ( talk) 21:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
One of the most common questions on the help desk is of the following form: "Someone left a notice on an article indicating that it was deficient in some way (no references, lacking notability, too much advertising etc.). I made some changes to address the concern, but the notice is still there. What do I do now?" The assumption (quite a reasonable assumption, I would add) is that the person adding the notice is actively watching and will remove the tag when the deficiency is remedied. I suggest one of three options (of course, there may be more):
I'm open to alternatives, but I'll re-emphasize that the newbie expectation is plausible, so we should either meet it or correct it. Implementing any of these options should receive a fair amount of consensus before proceeding— WP:Bold is not the right option. I prefer options 2 or 3 because I think option one is like holding back the tide, but I'm not about to create a few dozen templates and rewrite the usage guidelines without broad support.-- SPhilbrick T 17:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Tags could point to the Content Noticeboard, or suggest people ask at the appropriate wikiproject, but that would probably bloat them too much. Maybe a single WP: page on the issue could be a short link in the tag, and clarify. Compare the link in {{ userspace draft}}. Rd232 talk 21:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
As some of our longer serving editors will know, I have spent much of the 2.5 years since achieving admin rights working in WP:CSD. And a lesser time in other areas. Now I know pefectly well this proposal is not going to run, but I make it just as a way of letting off steam. I have absolutely no problem with the CSD categories which currently exist. But I would truly love to see an additional category added to the list, which we perhaps might shortcut as WP:RST. This would expand as WP:REALLY STUPID. Anyone out there care to humour a long-serving editor on this one? -- Anthony.bradbury "talk" 21:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Dear Wikkid crew,
I know this is a long shot but could we finish with the so called "professional reviews" section on all music album entries (for example those of "allmusic", "blender", "rolling stone" et al.) The verdicts one gets from this lot are usually UTTERLY useless, worse, they are inanely bad in many cases. I get the impression that they are either pretentious and/or gutless in just following fashions. I know one can quite easily learn to ignore them but they still mis-lead many people. In general no one else's opinion on an album is worth damn to anyone else.
By the way all my LURRVE to the entire community that have worked so hard to keep Wikipedia a reliable and interesting source of information, the only one on many subjects in fact!!!
Keep up the good work lads and lassies!!
James. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apeonurback ( talk • contribs) 22:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
I want to start this off by making it very, very, very clear that this issue isn't about our non-free content guidelines. Recent conversations on this point have been blurring this distinction and muddling the picture. The non-free content guidelines here are largely irrelevant. With that out of the way...
Starting much earlier this year, but especially in the last month, I've been removing sport logo icons from the infoboxes of university articles, doing so per the last paragraph of WP:MOSLOGO which states "Use of company logos, sports team crests and other copyright protected or trademarked images in articles can usually only be done on a fair use basis (generally as an illustration of the primary subject - eg the IBM logo on the IBM article). Use of such images as icons is nearly always prohibited (see Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline and Wikipedia:Logos)." It is my belief that this guideline is pretty unequivocal with regards to the use of trademark images. Note that the guideline says "or" not "and" for the 12th word. This is an important distinction.
The concern regarding the use of trademark icons first entered into the WP:MOSLOGO guideline in September of 2008 [14]. It's been evolving since. A version from May of this year [15] shows the intent. This was later reworded to what we have now.
I feel the use of trademark sports logo icons in university infoboxes is inappropriate because:
In particular, this RfC asks:
Your input welcome. Thanks, -- Hammersoft ( talk) 15:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Note: I anticipated having a hard time keeping this discussion focused on the two questions outlined above. I just didn't anticipate it would fork in the way it did :) I've refactored some comments in an attempt to keep elements of the discussion focused in appropriate places. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 22:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
keep alive edit intended to keep thread from being archived before RfC has run for 30 days -- Hammersoft ( talk) 22:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
keep alive edit intended to keep thread from being archived before RfC has run for 30 days -- Hammersoft ( talk) 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
After more than 30+ days, I see few people objecting to the removal of iconized sports logos, and most people expressing support for removal. Any disagree with that assessment? -- Hammersoft ( talk) 13:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I think the university/school articles should have the seal at the top and the school graphic at the bottom (which seems to be the norm). All other logos should be elsewhere in the article (if applicable). Given the prominence sports teams and their identies as prominent school ambassadors, the primary logo for the sports teams is optional, but appropriate, in the athletics section; This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Other discussions exist on this subject. They are listed below. This RfC is another attempt to centralize discussion in a single, appropriate place that applies to the entire abstract concept being dealt with here.
The following subthreads were originally listed along with this discussion but have since been split into their own thread:
This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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Wikipedia:Code of conduct ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
That page is a soft redirect, and the code of conduct itself is oriented towards the foundation itself (Wikimedia staff and members of the board of trustees) than to the comunity of users. The only part that may be considered as directed to us would be the part about discrimination, but we already have Wikipedia:Etiquette and policies and guidelines of behaviour about that (however, it isn't directed to us, it's directed to them, who are told not to tolerate such things).
The edit summary "if you're going to call it a policy, do so outright" does not seem correct either.
In short, this page is not a "policy", it's an internal rule of the foundation, wich is not aimed to common editors. It does not even exist here, but just as a soft redirect. And the main intention of it in a manner regular users may apply, is already covered by existing policies. I think the "policy" template should be removed inmediately. MBelgrano ( talk) 03:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
It can't be "an English Wikipedia policy"; it's not on English Wikipedia and not under English Wikipedia's control. I agree that tagging this as policy is not a good idea. — Gavia immer ( talk) 03:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Code of conduct ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a policy. It was previously marked as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I am unsure what template to use {{ db-f8}} or {{ nowcommons}}, they both do the same thing.And if it really doesn't matter then why have 2 templates with just surface differences.-- IngerAlHaosului ( talk) 10:47, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Not sure whether this is a misc. or a proposal. In any case, let's get some discussion happening here. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 20:39, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering what people think of dynamic IP editing -- the general feeling is this is generally okay, no? Does it matter if the IPs are editing in a controversial/ARB restricted area? Does it matter further if the IPs are coming from a user who has almost certainly edited under another account or accounts? And if that did matter, would it be necessary to first establish via CU beyond any reasonable doubt that the IP was linked to a named account, or could the WP:DUCK test in some instances apply? Thanks to all for reading. IronDuke 21:47, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (adjectives) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (verbs) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a discussion about bibliography articles taking place here. Suggestions being made are of far wider significance than to the specific page in question, therefore any constructive contributions to the conversation would be greatly appreciated. Neelix ( talk) 21:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
A request for comment has been posted at WP:Civil, concerning abuse of the one-line Edit Summary. This proposal also bears upon WP:NPA and WP:EW. Please take a look and comment. Brews ohare ( talk) 22:29, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
If an user ("A") were to revert an edit by "B" because it deleted part of the article (removing text, references, etc.), and by reverting it he also removed valid content added by B in the same edit, would he be coupable of blanking himself? In other words, would A be forced to recover parts of B's edits when reverting, for not being accused of removal of content?-- Ultimate Destiny ( talk) 17:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Currently WP:V is worded to put the burden of finding a source for unsourced information solely on the editor who wants to put the information back and not on the shoulders of the editor who removed the information based on the belief that it is unsourced. I believe this needs to change and is contradicted by the sentences later in the same WP:V that state that it is good practice and preferred that editors who want to remove unsourced information first try to find a source that confirms or denies it. I know I've brought this up in many discussions, and it could even be considered a "perenial" but really something should be done. The point of "citation needed" templates is to help identify what sentences and information needs a reference, so that those who might be able to find one can put one there. If the information is just removed then those who may have an interest in the article wont know that information is out there and just needs someone to find the information. Too many times I have seen these editors who go around trawling through articles they know nothing about looking for citation needed templates and removing the offending information without checking first for five-minutes in Google and then off like Superman to the next article to delete some more information. I say they are "trawling" because just like in fishing they trawl with a big net and yes catch things they are supposed to (fish, or wrong information that could never be cited) but also they catch happy dolphins (good information that helps the article, but just needing a citation). Citation needed doesnt mean "delete the information" it means "find a citation please". IAR is not to be ignored itself! If the information, even without a citation helps explain and clarify and makes the article a better article then it should stay under IAR. IAR is not a cop-out, it is the number one rule that overturns EVERYTHING that can be recited from our "rules". WP:V needs to be written to adhere to the spirit of Wikipedia and IAR and to stop these whole-sale trawlers who's intent is to destroy information (but within the wording of our guidelines) and who do not have the intent to add to the articles or improve them. Camelbinky ( talk) 21:27, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I've mocked up a template to address the bad use discussed. It was a quick job and probably needs a copyedit for flow. See {{ Uw-vremoval}}.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 00:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
And how do yo expect to find and remove incorrect information? Not only deliverate hoaxes or lies, but also rumors, common misunderstandings, mistakes, outdated information, local perspectives in disregard or global ones, etc. If we work on the asumption that if a statement has reliable references then it must be "true" enough for us to say it, then the principle that false information won't be able to provide such references is just a result of formal logic. But we won't have very frequently reliable sources confirming that a "false" statement is indeed false: if it is a marginal or minority point of view with no supporters, or just an invention (deliverate or not) of some common people, reliable sources are likely to dismiss the issue completely. In fact, the cases when we would have such sources would be exceptional, not the rule.
Or to say things a little better: that a statement does not provide references does not imply it to be false, it implies that we can't be sure enough that it's true. In such cases, I support removal: if the statement was unreferenced but true, it can be easily restored once the needed sources are found and provided. MBelgrano ( talk) 03:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree that we should rather add more strength to WP:BURDEN rather than weaken WP:V even more. The problem is that if you place the burden on the editor trying to remove unsourced info, then people could put false/POV info into an article, then claim, " WP:V allows for unsourced info until you prove it wrong." Like it has been said, there are now 3,000,000 articles on WP, so we should start to focus on better quality articles. On some articles, it is harder to find sources for true statements, but I think that the vast majority of "citation needed" tags are from lazy editors who ignore that Verifiability is one of the pillars of WP. And let's be honest, if you are a veteren editor on WP, and you are adding unsourced info often, you should know better, and find sources. Besides, when I read an article that has 10 or so citation needed tags, I basically begin to question the whole article. While I agree that editors should check into info before deleting, it is a dangerous slope when you change WP:V to prevent people from removing unsourced info. And if you get angry that someone removed a great thought you added to the page, well, use that energy to find a source instead of starting an edit war. (Not aimed at anyone in particular) Angryapathy ( talk) 13:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Are such results valid inline cites? They're currently being used in Tsarist autocracy. A guideline link, if there is one, would be helpful. Novickas ( talk) 16:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
[ [1]] was deleted. I was wondering if it was appropriate since I had listed a non free rationale. Wuld there be a way to use it. The image can be found here : [2]. Thanks-- Die4Dixie ( talk) 03:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
We would like to ask you to stop the vandalism actions and intervention that have been recently directed towards this page. Thus, there are numerous third party sources such as National Geographic, US Congress Documents and famous journalists' reports, quoted on the page. 10 years of teaching at the most prestigious Romanian University is a long period for anyone, as a Professor. The presence of the material is mainly justified by the role played by Professor Munteanu in the changes occurred in the Eastern Europe in 1989 - 1990. Also, the large quantity of information is justified by his international activities and presence. It is obvious that these vandalism interventions have nothing in common with the norms of an encyclopedia and we consider them as attacks originating from propagandistic areas and believe such interventions should not be allowed in a free encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bogdan Munteanu ( talk • contribs) 08:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Belgium/Brussels naming conventions ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
An RfC has been posted here concerning recommendations for use of the one-line Edit Summary in reverting contributions. Please take a look and comment. Brews ohare ( talk) 17:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
WP:LINKSPAM says that adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. I have just noticed that Cybercobra is adding hundreds of links to articles about published books that link to Online Computer Library Center, such as this link to the article Dragons of the Dwarven Depths. In theory, the link is being created to an online catalogue service. In practise, this shadowy private company, whose ownership and management seems murky to me, is acting a shop front for online booksellers, such as Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Should we be allow spamming of links to semi-commercial sites whose ownership and management is not transparent? Who is benefiting from this linking? Worse still, is this some sort of scam? -- Gavin Collins ( talk| contribs) 09:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
|oclc=
parameter of {{
Infobox Book}} by looking up OCLC#s programmatically based on ISBNs. --
Cybercobra
(talk) 10:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes OCLC is good to use when ISBN fails (as are a number of others) but I think it's really good that this possible abuse was spotted and brought here. And yes I did know that Dewey is owned, it is a great shame, ISBNs are also administered by a for-profit company, which means the full information about assignment ranges costs money. Rich Farmbrough, 21:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC).
←(unindent from above)← ISBNs with dashes to delimit the internal fields (region-publisher-unit-checksum) are indeed unambiguous. Unfortunately, because the length of the publisher field (and hence the range of the unit field) can vary, ISBNs recorded without the dashes are not necessarily unambiguous. Increasingly, this is the way they are most commonly recorded, especially for ISBN-13s (since it's just an EAN with a second interpretation). For instance, Google Books nearly always only has the dashless form of the ISBN in their summary view, even when they have a copyright page available in the book text with the dashed form plainly recorded. This can be a problem, though it's a small one - ISBN + title is practically always a unique identifier even when the ISBN alone isn't. — Gavia immer ( talk) 01:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
|oclc=
in the {{
Infobox Book}}. Any linking is performed automatically by {{
Infobox Book}}. Therefore, all links could be removed simply by changing {{
Infobox Book}}. Also, the appropriate place for any complaints about the links is on the
Template's Talk page.
HairyWombat (
talk) 19:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I, or any other admin, can easily change the template if/when there is consensus to do so. -- ThaddeusB ( talk) 17:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
( edit conflict) (out) - Why would he need to stop it? Adding the OCLCs to infoboxes is quite helpful to the reader. I have no idea why this is such a big deal; for the most part, I agree with LeadSongDog ( talk · contribs)'s comments above ("The link to the OCLC is a benefit to the project."). I do not think that it would cause more confusion; in fact, I think that an argument could be made that Special:BookSources—what ISBNs link too—is more confusing. This is the reason I have ISBNs and OCLCs side-by-side in such FAs or As like Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes#Bibliography or North Carolina class battleship#Bibliography. — Ed (talk • contribs) 17:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Where a correctly-formatted ISBN is already in place, adding OCLC does seem like needless clutter since a WorldCat link is accessible through Special:BookSources and Worldcat is perfectly capable of retrieving titles by ISBN. – Whitehorse1 03:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Notice: The issue of whether/when the Infobox should generate hyperlinks to WorldCat is now being discussed at
Template_talk:Infobox_Book#Worldcat_Weblink --
Cybercobra
(talk) 17:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
A few fallacies, mainly understandable exist. The following should clarify.
I think the more important question as to why Wikipedia should be used as platform to create hundreds of links direct to the Worldcat website has been ignored, perhaps by those who do not want those links removed. There is no reason why Worldcat should be given special treatment by linking to their site in this way, as we don't do it for any other non-commecial or comercial cataloguing service. It is not appropriate to add these lists on two grounds:
Wikipedia should be not be providing this service for Worldcat, as we don't do it for any other non-commecial or comercial cataloguing service. For instance, Wikipedia does not support direct links to the Library of Congress website via a LCCN, even though it is one of the largest book collections in the World. -- Gavin Collins ( talk| contribs) 15:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
The following thread was originally listed under Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Should trademarked sports logos be used as icons in university infoboxes? but has since been split into its own thread
I also think we ought to treat trademarked images with the same "legal respect" that we do for copyrighted images, to further the goal of making out content as freely usable (for any purpose) as possible. — Andrwsc ( talk · contribs) 20:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
We can't treat trademarks the same as copyrighted material because the legal protections for each are completely different. And we shouldn't try to anyway, because the field of trademarked content is far too vast, encompassing many words and images of common property, and regardless of whether they are presented as "logos" in specific fonts (so don't get hung up on that). As noted above, trademark protection is very context- and function-specific; you can't commit trademark infringement simply by copying a trademark with nothing more. Wikipedia content by its very nature only uses trademarks nominatively—to identify a trademarked product or service or the trademark holder. This is not trademark infringement, and in fact it is something even competing commercial companies can do legally, as in comparative advertising. The presence of those trademarks in Wikipedia content in no way makes it less free to downstream users, who would really have to go out of their way to commit trademark infringement with Wikipedia content. Postdlf ( talk) 03:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
On Commons, the approach is to be concerned only about copyright, trademark is usually mentioned n grey cases but dismissed: if an image "seems" copyrightable but it actually isn't (like File:Google.png), it's because it's trademarked but not copyrighted, and the result is keep.
In any case, if there were strong reasons to discuss the trademark bit, I suggest to do it on commons as well. Regular user in there, even if not lawyers, generally know at least "a bit of everything" of copyright law and may provide more well-sourced answers than wikipedia users who may have expertise on other topics but not on that. MBelgrano ( talk) 03:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
This is just ... a bad idea. Trademarked public domain images are just that - public domain. They have a couple minor restrictions on them, but none that really apply to us or anyone copying an article from us. Besides that, they're about as free as can be. Postdlf sums it up well. This is just pointless copyright trademark paranoia that would hurt content quality far more than it would improve free-ness.
Mr.
Z-man 04:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The one thing I throw in here in the trademark/non-free approach is that we need to seek a means of using logos in a manner than is not systematically biased. Say we have two predominate companies as articles along with numerous pages for their products, the products themselves lacking new logos. The only difference between these companies is that one employees a logo that is simply block text and completely fails the threshold of originality, while the other is highly stylized and clearly copyrightable. Now, while one could argue that it would be fine to put the free, trademarked company logo on each of the product pages, this capability is not something that can be enjoyed by the other company with its non-free logo, per our WP:NFC policy. Thus, we should discourage the use of free, trademarked logos through the reasoning of "just because they can be", and only consider the use of logos - free or otherwise, when they are truly adding something to an article. -- MASEM ( t) 15:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
The following thread was originally listed under Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Should trademarked sports logos be used as icons in university infoboxes? but has since been split into its own thread
Because I am not sure how to express these opinions on various topics without forking into oblivion, I'm just going to summarize.
Images that are trademarked and copyrightable fall under the protections of copyrighted images. Images that are trademarked but ineligible for copyright are PD images. They can be used and are used as PD images within Wikipedia. Trademarks are protected under the Trademark Act of 1946 and several additional amendments (U.S.C. §§ 1051-1127.1). This act provides guidance and remedies for both trademark infringement and trademark dilution.
Trademark infringement occurs when a non-owner uses another’s trademark in a way that causes actual confusion or a likelihood of confusion between the marks. It explicitly prohibits the use of marks that are "likely to cause confusion, or to cause a mistake, or to deceive." Unless someone uses a trademark with the intent to violate those explicit conditions, I can think of no use of an uncopyrightable trademark within Wikipedia which would violate these conditions.
Trademark dilution involves use of a trademark within a "commercial context." This means that the use in question must actually be in the stream of commerce and could therefore make a profit for the user or reduce the profits for the owner. Dilution occurs when someone uses a another’s mark in a commercial context in a way that lessens the power of the owner’s mark to keep its the reputation of a user and how that affects the public’s perception of the mark. Again, there is nothing short of intentional misuse of a logo that would cause problems for us.
Therefore, I think it behooves us to annotate clearly in policy that logos can be used in articles about things related to the subject and in user boxes, however, these cannot be used in any manner indicating endorsement or approval without the trademark's onwer's explicit permission. These logos being used in an informative manner with no monetary goal reflect the law's intent.
Again, we need to explicitly define this. I'll see what I can come up with and propose it here in a bit. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think it does a disservice to show logos in a manner inconsistent with being displayed large enought to show appropriate detail. Accordingly, I think we should limit their degredation in size to a minimum of 100px. We also should consider fixing the overuse of logos in infoboxes with some clearer guidance. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the university/school articles should have the seal at the top and the school graphic at the bottom (which seems to be the norm). All other logos should be elsewhere in the article (if applicable). Given the prominence sports teams and their identies as prominent school ambassadors, the primary logo for the sports teams is optional, but appropriate, in the athletics section; This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
...should use the most current logo (regardless of whether it is free or not) in the infobox. This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
...should use only PD images in the info box. It seems every sports team has at least one {{ PD-textlogo}} image. I'm still working on making sure they are uploaded and properly annotated, but people are welcome to use my current list (work in progress). — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
...may not use copyrighted logos. Other images are left to project preferences and should be standardized as much as possible. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Should just be used in accordance with Wikipedia:Trademarks#The_use_of_graphic_logos. No other guidance is necessary. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Could this term be changed as it is very confusing, not instantly understandable, and could mean even no opinion at all, even "an inoffensive point of view", which would be riduculous. I suggest: "encyclopedic point of view".
MacOfJesus ( talk) 22:31, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
In the Article page, of course, this is so. All I am saying is, "Neutral point of view" is too confusing and not instantly recognisable. I am sure there is a better term out there, somewhere. Any suggestions?
MacOfJesus ( talk) 20:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for offering a suggestion! We all have a good idea what is meant, but the term!
MacOfJesus ( talk) 13:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
When my first History Teacher was trying to explain this to me, I was confused then and I think still am over this term.
I think "terse" would be a good concept substitute for "neutral" ?
MacOfJesus ( talk) 14:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I was attempting to refrain from commenting here, because it is rather silly to try and change the name for one of the longest-standing, and prevasive, policies on Wikipedia. But I think I should add my two cents. First of all, "Neutral Point of View," is just a term, and is meaningless without the entire policy that it describes. While one may have a different connotation for the word "neutral", the policy itself lays out the full meaning of the term. Secondly, neutral does in fact work very well. If a country is neutral in a war, or if someone is neutral in an argument, it means that no side has been taken, which is exactly what NPOV means: Do not side with either point of view. Third, terse means, "concise," or "brief," which does not fit at all. If you find "Neutral Point of View" confusing, read the entire policy, and if you are still confused on certain points, then ask for clarification of those points. Angryapathy ( talk) 15:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for coming in on this point. I am aware of what neutral point of view means. Being familiar with historical discourse for many years, I think I know what the term stands for, by now. "Terse", just does'nt mean "brief". The early ancients in our ancient languages concentrated in encapulating the essence of thought in terse verse. This is true of the ancient Gaelic, the ancient Greek, in particular, and certainly of the Latin.
I feel this term is not adequite or sufficient in encapulating the essence of thought here.
Do you have a better one?
It is relatively easy to see how rediculous our arguments are, another thing completely to make a substitute suggestion.
At this stage I would want to turn to the Latin.
What do you propose? positively?
During the Second World War, for example, Ireland was Neutral during the War, but not impartial. Should the historian writing history be impartial or just neutral?
MacOfJesus (
talk) 22:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
My proposal is to leave it the way it is. I think your example of Ireland in WWII perfectly explains neutral. Aiming for a neutral POV doesn't mean you are completely impartial. Sometimes you have to forget which POV you prefer and aim for a balance of the POV's, thus allowing the article to have a neutral point of view. Angryapathy ( talk) 13:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I propose it be changed, as the term is misleading.
MacOfJesus ( talk) 17:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:Outlines#Failed?
The Transhumanist 17:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, the mass of outlines created by this project in the last year or so are a disagrace - the template that is being used includes many violations of the MOS and other guidelines (such as don't include section headers that are empty, don't let templates masquerade as text, don't put redlinks for main/further reading hats, etc), and, more importantly, it appears that many of the people working on these editors are very unfamiliar with the topics. This has led to information on some of these outlines being wrong or misleading. I've been reverted when trying to clean up the areas I'm familiar with (both MOS fixes and content fixes) by some of the more overzealous members. To me, it feels like these outlines are being shoved down everyone's throat with no consensus for their existance, no consensus that if they do exist they should be structured as they are, no consensus on how they should be named, and no consensus as to what they include. For such a massive project, community consensus absolutely should have been attained first - a few large RfCs could have forestalled a lot of the complaints that keep popping up. Karanacs ( talk) 20:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I question the utility of these outlines and suggest that broader consensus that could be reasonably gauged via AFD/RFC/whatnot would demonstrate that aside from the very few users active in creating these outlines, they would have little to no support. I suggest that the outliners consider making their outlines either on a seperate wiki (wikiversity, I believe, would be happy to host all the outlines), or in their project namespace. I further insist that any further outline moves/redirects/whatevers be consider controversial - pages should not be Xed without positive consensus to do so. Hipocrite ( talk) 18:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Should there be guidance? No. Transhumanist: this is your own crusade, why would you need any external guidance? Oh yes, the old good "write content not outlines" but you've probably heard it a hundred times... NVO ( talk) 19:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Someone wondered how many editors had edited the "outlines". Members of the category "Outlines" beginning with "Outline of" (about 2/3 of them) have 2831 different editors. Rich Farmbrough, 22:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC).
An editor has asked me on Talk:American Pit Bull Terrier for the policy that states that text shouldn't be duplicated between articles. For some reason I was under the impression that we don't allow for duplicate text, but I can't find the specific policy. Is there one in place (like in MOS) or was I incorrect in my thinking? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
PROBLEM: I faced a problem when a RS web reference died. Now it is dead and thus can not be verified easily. PROPOSED SOLUTION: I came across the site Webcite. I suggest having a wikiProject or some kind of archive here to archive reliable web references when an article reaches GA, A and/or FA class. The reliability is established by the reviewers in the GA, A, FA reviews. NOTE: I thought this was the best place to discuss this. Please move to relevant Village Pump if this is not the place.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:21, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
This was discussed last week - now archived at [9]. IMO the editors who commented were aware that the question pertained to Gbook search results, since P.'s post mentioning that appeared before the other editors weighed in. Piotrus restored them [10] on the grounds that last week's discussion here referred only to Google searches, not Google book searches. Comments? Novickas ( talk) 14:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems like over-referencing to include references for that sort of thing anyway.
— Carl ( CBM · talk) 15:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Following discussion on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid editing in June of this year WP:Paid was created as a guideline/overview page of existing practices. Some editors wishing to enact a more stringent policy have, to state it diplomatically, since made efforts to replace it with a proposed policy page. We now have two pages Wikipedia:Paid editing (guideline) which attempts to overview current practice and Wikipedia:Paid editing (policy). They are very different in tone but perhaps are not mutually exclusive. First question - is it acceptable to have both a guideline and policy page? I have asked this but have not gotten a response. If it's not OK where is this stated so we can refer to that as a moving forward jump-off. If it is OK are the current page titles acceptable? If not what would be better? All help appreciated. -- Banjeboi 14:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
At, present a common mantra is that blocks and bans are not to be used as punishment, but in order to prevent further disruption. I think this idea is in need of some clarification. One interpretation of the mantra is that it is perfectly OK for a banned user to return using a sockpuppet, as long as they continue making useful edits which benefit the encyclopedia. Even though a number of people whom I respect hold that view, I respectfully disagree with them, even though the literal wording of "only to prevent, not punish" does seem to support it.
Punishment has a number of different reasons behind it:
When we say that blocks and bans are not for punishment, I think we really mean that they are not means of revenge (retaliation/retribution). The reason I disagree with turning a blind eye to ban-evading sockpuppets is that the general deterrence factor is eroded. A ban is a severe sanction because it means you are kicked off Wikipedia. If the sanction were that "you have to make a new username to continue editing", that sanction loses most of its teeth for someone who has no intention of respecting the ban, and as a result we wind up with a de facto legitimization of the disruptive behavior that led to the ban in the first place. "Is harassing someone worth getting kicked off the website?" v. "Is harassing someone worth losing your current username?"
The blocking policy already says that deterrence is one of the purposes of blocks. I feel that the banning policy should specifically mention general deterrence of disruption as one of its purposes. It should also explain why evasion with a sockpuppet to make useful edits is prohibited.
Using blocks and bans as a deterrent is a punitive measure, and we should not try to kid ourselves by saying otherwise. They are used to sanction poor behavior ("punishment"), even if they are not used to wreak vengeance ("retaliation"). Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
NOTE: I've been around awhile, but never to the Pump ... I'm here because of the underlined text from a talk page template. Please let me know if Help desk is the more appropriate venue for this question.
“ | This is not a forum for general discussion of [X]. Any such messages will be deleted or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about [X] at the Reference desk, discuss relevant Wikipedia policy at the Village pump, or ask for help at the Help desk. | ” |
I have been asked what (specific) policy is the basis which allows the collapsing of portions of talk page discussions (by administrators or others).
The general explanation I gave was:
“ |
|
” |
But there was a request for specific WP policy (page/section) applicable to authorize collapsing (of anything by anyone) on an article talk page.
Any specific places in policy that specifically covers collapsing? (Again, if the wrong venue, please direct me.) Proofreader77 ( talk) 19:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
While categorizing uncategorized pages from the backlog of WP:CATP, I ran across PIRA/PIRAlededraft, which is a draft version of Provisional Irish Republican Army. It shouldn't be deleted, as there is a great deal of discussion on its talk page about a controversial subject. To where should the article and its talk page be moved? To its creator's sandbox? Many thanks in advance for all advice and pointers to policy. MuffledThud ( talk) 22:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
I went ahead and moved it. Anomie ⚔ 03:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, first sorry for my english, i am a french contributor. On french WP we created a page in which the purpose is to compare Featured Articles between french one is others. For instance, we have broadsheets to compare which FA on en: is not yet translate into fr:, or if it is. Thus, we can have a look on the advancement of the translations. We can also suggest to contributors good translation so as to enhance FA on our WP. Here is our main page.
My question is simple : is a sort of this project exists on english WP?
thanks a lot, -- Prosopee ( talk) 11:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a question about whether extra-contextual (I'm sorry, I don't know if that's a real word, but bear with me) information is appropriate for inclusion in an article on a narrative such as a book or film. For example, say you're watching a movie and there's a mysterious character in the background. The movie never specifies his name or who he is. But then a novelization of the movie comes out, which specifies that the mystery man is actually an accountant named Bill. My question is, should the article on the movie refer to the guy as Bill the Accountant? My personal feeling is that the answer is no, because that's a misleading representation of the film itself; the article is, after all, about the film, not about the novelization. At most, there could be a footnote on the character, that he is specified as Bill the Accountant in the novelization, but if such a footnote is included, it should be made clear that the information is not found in the movie itself. Thoughts? Minaker ( talk) 21:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
This joke may meet Wikipedia’s
criteria for speedy deletion because it is not
funny.
If this joke does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, please remove this notice. If you created this joke and you disagree with its proposed speedy deletion, please add:
|
I propose a new policy concerning jokes on wikipedia. I have come across far too many users who believe their jokes are funny. It is, I believe, a time to put a stop to this. Bad jokes only make me groan, and I groan enough in real life, so do not want this to infest wikipedia. I propose we set up a panel of bad jokes monitors to ensure this policy is adhered to. I would suggest allowing three bad jokes in a 24hr period then a block. Thank you. Jack forbes ( talk) 16:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Not a good idea. See past discussion on WT:CSD for why speedying hoaxes are a bad idea. The same points apply here. It might look like an article made as a joke, but determining this with surety require extensive knowledge of the relevant field. And as such requires community discussion. For articles that are obviously created in bad faith we already have a CSD. Taemyr ( talk) 08:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
This evening, I went to Wikipedia to look up something, and I was encountered by this character assault on my user page. I need to know what steps to take.
The following was the message that this person wrote to me.
Journey "Niceness"
You can "yipe yipe yipe" all day, but it won't help. Experienced editors tire of these whinings very quickly, and crave only entries from contributors with BALLS, not cherrystones. Don't be that guy who needs to be drop-kicked like an insufferable lap-dog. Try also not to be too offended by edits that may hurt your precious feelings, but simply happen to coincide with the truth...
In short: toughen up, or be prepared to cry yourself to sleep on a daily/nightly basis. This isn't for kindergarteners...
"I've got your name... I've got your ass!!!"
I didn't include the person's name. I have no idea what this person is referring to. I wrote on his user page a few minutes ago that I feel that an explanation is owed to me as to what this is all about. Will somebody please help me out on this? It is an offensive and harassing character assault that is totally uncalled for. I do not need to be greeted unexpectedly with such verbal abuse. This is highly offensive. Not only that, but I have no idea of what this person wants from me, or what he is referring to. I couldn't even begin to imagine. Not only that, but the last line was obviously meant to intimidate me. Well, he did a good job. There are creeps crawling all over the internet, but it doesn't help Wikipedia's image to have these kind of things going on. Will somebody please give me some advice as to what actions can be taken? Runt ( talk) 23:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Many like to throw around in arguments that Wikipedia's standards are "verifiability not truth", and while that may have worked when the Community was young, perhaps we should change that wording and clarify it a bit on our policy and guideline pages. While I do understand keeping such an idea in spirit, we should clarify the policy so it does not stand out so boldly, it is probably the number one quote bandied around that editors dont like to apply IAR and Common sense on, especially when one proposes to show that a reliable source has gotten the information wrong by showing primary sources contradict the RS. I propose that "verifiability not truth" be given less prominence and more clarification that if it can be reasonably shown that a RS has gotten something wrong then it is more important to have the truth than to have sourced false information. "Reasonably shown" meaning through other sources, even primary (which are unfairly discriminated against in Wikipedia), or through common sense that a consensus of editors have agreed on. As an example I will give a non-controversial example from my own editing experience-
"Truth" in this context is about controversial truths. Is X political development exactly as we see it in the media, or is there a conspiracy behind it? The policy says: for Wikipedia, it's as we see it in the media (even if ultimately the media happens to be lying). When the conspiracy/real truth/whatever surfaces into the media, then and only then we can talk about it. MBelgrano ( talk) 01:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Camelbinky, it seems that the issue you're raising here is really about when primary sources may be reliable sources for particular statements of fact, and what to do when sources conflict. You simply claim that the primary source you have found verifies an earlier date than the secondary source another contributor had found. The whole point of insisting on what is verifiable is that we don't just want a bunch of editors arguing back and forth about what they "know" to be the truth without anything concrete to prove the point either way. Until you had found that primary source, did you have any reason to believe that the secondary source was inaccurate? It's still about what you can prove using more than just your word for it. Postdlf ( talk) 01:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
The problem is that "truth" can vary from person to person. So how do we reconcile disputes when there are multiple "truths"? We could take a poll of editors, but that would be susceptible to outside influences, and people with fringe beliefs are often more vocal than the mainstream, both of which could lead to disproportionate results. So, instead, we mainly present what the mainstream sources say, but in the interests of NPOV, include other views on the "truth," giving them appropriate weight based on coverage in reliable sources. Mr. Z-man 01:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Part of what we as editors have to do is evaluate what kind of claim a source is making. Is it making an assertion of fact, which is or isn't true, or merely a characterization, which is or isn't persuasive? And we can also evaluate whether a reliable source is reliable for the statement it is being used to verify. Is it reporting or editorializing? Is it venturing outside its area of expertise? Is it internally inconsistent? Postdlf ( talk) 03:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
It definitely needs to be modified, but for different reasons than those prevented above. There are various notable happenings that don't receive enough western attention for media verifiability. If you're trying to write an article on something a little more obscure, it's a nightmare trying to find media coverage that deals with the subject in question in more than a trivial manner. This limits the scope of wikipedia.
Please see Wikipedia talk:Signatures#Forbid "text-shadow" in signatures. Regards So Why 14:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
This link [11] shows the net result of 23 edits to a single page. 22 of these edits where either non-constructive edits (usually blatant vandalism) or those edits being undone. I'm not saying I have a solution but I do think that we've got a big problem when there are pages where less than 5% of the edits actually contribute to the article content.-- RDBury ( talk) 14:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I have two questions I can't seem to find answers for:
1. If I have bought a painting or other original artwork am I allowed to use a photo of it (which I have taken myself) in a Wikipedia article? If there are any restrictions - what are they?
2. If I bought some photos from a photographer years ago who is now assumed to have almost certainly passed away by now, am I allowed to use them to illustrate an article? And, as above, if there are any restrictions - what are they?
Many thanks for any help you may be able to give.
Yours sincerely, John Hill ( talk) 22:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you both for your helpful answers. I will contact the Media copyright people for spefic answers about specific works of art and photos. Best wishes, John Hill ( talk) 13:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
A large percentage of Grbpradeep's uploads are problematic images: either copyrighted images that don't pass our nonfree content criteria or even claim to, or not-necessarily-copyrighted images without evidence of permission and/or evidence of authorship. Just today, I've listed three of his files at FFD, tagged several more under WP:F6, and voted in another FFD nomination that included several of his images. See his talk page for details. You'll see there that many deletion warnings have been issued, and some editors have given more specific warnings and explanations of our copyright policies, but nothing substantive has been done. When does the time come that we say, "Thanks for your helpful photographs and text, but you've violated our copyright policies too many times"? Nyttend ( talk) 15:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is a technical or a policy issue, so I have posted it on both Village Pumps.
Within the last 24 hours, seemingly random underlining with dots has appeared all over Wikipedia. (Is there a name for it?) In my opinion it destroys the readability of Wikipedia articles. It makes words and phrases jump off the page. As far as I can tell, it serves no useful purpose at all, but if people really like the extra linking function there's got to be a less annoying way to mark the links. Can we revert back to yesterday on this thing? HowardMorland ( talk) 17:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
hi, i have a question about user identity. i will try to explain without using specifics.
there is one article on wikipedia. (it is also a BLP). the subject of the article (call it 101) has several anti "101" websites on the internet. one of the anti-101 writers (editor A) (with his own anti 101 websites) has a wikipedia acct and he has revealed his name and websites on his user page (which i think is line with wikipedia policy). there is another editor (editor B) on wikipedia who shares the same name as one of the anti-101 writers (with several of his own anti 101 websites) but has not given any more information about himself. some of the edits by editor B seem like original research, and the topics seem similar to those he posts on his own website.
many of editor B's comments towards other editors also seem rude, patronizing and condescending. i dont want to harrass the editor and am unsure how to proceed as it is difficult to deal with these editors. (as it seems that their hostility towards subject 101 spills onto the wikipedia article and the editors involved on the page)
i was wondering what to do or how to proceed.
J929 ( talk) 21:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks!
i tried the COI board and it was said that unless editor A or B is pushing a product or their own websites it is not COI... and to try NPOV.
i'm under the assumption wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, and content included in an article have to be from a reliable source (and properly referenced). As person 101 is a BLP and is the subject of the wikipedia page, editor B has been making edits about books about person 101. ie instead of discussing person 101 in the biography section, he discusses books about him/her. i asked editor B to move the info to a more suitable section as a biography should only deal with the subject of the article. These edits about books are in line with (same as) the topics he discusses on his own website, where editor B questions the sources (already deemed valid by wikipedia) and books which discuss person 101. Editor B says these sources are only catering to claims made by person 101. hence inclusion of information about books about person 101 in the biography section seems to me like speculation, arguement and a synthesis based on his own reserach and analysis...
"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions."
WP:OR
WP:COI says "Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of any article they edit, particularly if those edits may be contested." if editor B doesnt fully disclose his full identity (ie his anti 101 websites), is this a form of COI? how then is it determined (or can it be, in not harassing the editor) that editor B is the same person who holds anti 101 websites? (it seems more than coincidence that editor B and the person who holds the anti 101 websites share the same name -- among other similarities). on their websites editor A and B say that they are linked and have communications ie. send each other emails etcs... outside of wikipedia. does this constitute a "group" as defined in the WP:COI page?
i will also look into Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts.
any suggestions on how to proceed is most helpful...
Thanks!
J929 ( talk) 21:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks!
will try WP:OR. if nothing changes, i'm not sure how to proceed as theres no concrete "evidence" or facts to prove that editor B is the anti 101 writer (with the same name). will update how things progress...
J929 ( talk) 21:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
it seems like things are the same. i was wondering is there any wikipedia body to ask to look into the identity of editor "B"? to pursue the issue myself may be harassment but if editor B doesnt fully disclose his identity then is it a violation of
WP:COI? ("Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of any article they edit, particularly if those edits may be contested.")
(i do contest his edits and there is concern among other editors about his identity)
not sure if this is the correct way to proceed.
any suggestions are most welcome...
Thanks!
J929 ( talk) 17:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
i dont think checkuser applies as although another opinionated editor has recently appeared i dont think it is a sockpuppet issue...
other editors have expressed concern about editor B and the similarities they share with the anti 101 writer (same name being one of them...). what dispute resolutions can you can suggest?
the subject is Sathya Sai Baba. i'm not alledging that any of the users have returned. my concern is that one of the anti 101 writers has stated that all the anti 101 writers are "internationally connected", meaning they have ties outside of wikipedia and have agendas and tactics they use. (will provide links if needed) and hence the concern that wikipedia is simply being used by this group as a platform to propogate their agenda and views (and the original research they have accumulated over the years). they dont seem to edit to improve the article, only simply editing to keep their interests alive with a "foot in the door" on what they believe should be included in the article (even though one of the main edits by editor A violates BLP policy in the sources he quotes... there has been edit wars over this source even after it was decided by a univolved groupd of wikipedia editors that the source was a BLP violation)
having read the remedies about the rulings you provided, it seems that editor A has violated the remedy by using a source/website run by fellow anti 101 writer in his edits. (the remedy (via the link you provided) states "It is inappropriate for a user to insert a link to a website maintained by the user (or in which the user plays an important role)."
what action can be taken against editor A for this violation?
will provde links if needed...
Thanks
J929 ( talk) 16:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Is it not bizarre that people would want to remove most of the main article about the most revolutionary, educational and participatory software ever invented?
There has been an attempt for around 4 years to delete all or nearly all (depending on the mood of the involved editor) of Comparison of wiki farms. See the 4 deletion discussions. The last 2 were for keep. They are linked from the top of Talk:Comparison of wiki farms.
As to the arbitrariness of the mood of the deleting editors see some of the latest edit summaries by Cybercobra who initiated the latest round of removal of much of Comparison of wiki farms.
The full version of the article (October 13, 2009) before the latest mass removal of most of the article:
Diffs: one. two. Edit summaries:
Note the arbitrary value of the Alexa traffic rank number used to remove most of the article. From around 50 wiki farms to around 10 wiki farms.
Some major work was done by Michaeldsuarez recently to update all of the Alexa info. Keeping Alexa updated was the main complaint of Ronz who is the main removalist involved.
I don't have much time to spend on this, so others need to get involved. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 16:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
So if I understand the dispute, those wanting to remove certain listings want to restrict the list to entries that are notable and would presumably merit their own articles, correct? What inclusion standard is urged by those wanting to keep those entries under dispute in the comparison article? Postdlf ( talk) 19:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Seems wrong to remove years of work - WP:EFFORT. I really don't understand the debate here. On one hand we have Note the arbitrary value of the Alexa traffic rank number used, then 6 million was chosen as a mostly arbitrary number. So what if there was one at 5,357,869? Why 6 million? Why not 5.4 million? If their traffic changes, will the 6 million number change? We do not need a policy to resolve this, and we especially don't need a policy that just picks an arbitrary number to use. The short answer is that there isn't a magic number for every article (though such a policy would only apply to a handful of articles, another reason not to have a policy for it). This is a normal content dispute that needs mediation, not a forced resolution through policy. Mr. Z-man 20:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
The language presented by the proposer ("attempt to extinguish... Is it not bizarre..." leads me to believe that the proposer has failed to assume good faith. I suggest that until such time as the proposer can assume good faith, the article be kept in the form he does not approve of. Hipocrite ( talk) 14:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a delicious story in the Guardian today about UK newspapers getting hoaxed with ludicrous stories that they obviously didn't even try to verify before publishing. Of course it is served up with lashings of schadenfreude as there is nothing a newspaper loves more than seeing a competitor get shafted, even so, it is a serious issue and I thought I should mention it in case it has any implications for the WP:RS policy which tends to treat newspaper coverage as reliable. Even if it doesn't, it is amusing and it is a nice object lesson on why verifiability matters. Starsuckers celebrity hoax dupes tabloids -- DanielRigal ( talk) 22:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't think articles should give away plot details of future episodes of TV shows. I think there should be a spoiler policy to this effect. The current spoiler policy needs clarified. Giving details of episodes that have already aired is fine, as a reader who is reading an article when they know they aren't up-to-date in their watching should expect they might come across spoilers, but to give away plot details about future episodes means that it is never safe to read an article about a tv show even if you have seen all the latest episodes. Big Way ( talk) 05:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
The following information which I've hidden in a collapsible navbox appears in the House (TV series) article in a section called Main characters:
I think something should be done to avoid information like this appearing randomly in an article. Perhaps it could be put in a separate article called Upcoming events (House TV series) or some such until it has actually happened and then it can be put in the main article. Big Way ( talk) 18:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I have yet to watch an episode of Lost, so I'd appreciate it if y'all don't ruin my suspense until I can borrow the DVDs. Postdlf ( talk) 19:24, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Surprised noone mentioned this upon User:Big Way's example, but there in fact used to be spoiler warnings in WP -- however, after MUCH heated debate, as well as perhaps a bit of being extra bold, caused their loss. In other words, WP went from being warning-laden to warning-free and it's very doubtful it'll go back, all things considered. Just remember that WP documents info, in a supposedly academic way. Spoiler warnings really don't fit in with that goal. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ ( talk) 14:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Revision deletion ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Night_of_the_Pencils#The_kidnappings seems to me a clear violation of WP:NOTMEMORIAL, yet another editor insists on re-adding the non-notable names. Could I get further opinions? Who then was a gentleman? ( talk) 01:47, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Per WP criminal notability guidelines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(criminal_acts) :
"Notability of criminal acts:
Criminal act includes a matter in which a crime has been established, or a matter has been deemed a likely crime by the relevant law enforcement agency or judicial authority. For example, the disappearance of a person would fall under this guideline if law enforcement agencies deemed it likely to have been caused by criminal conduct, regardless of whether a perpetrator is identified or charged.
Victims:
A victim of a crime should normally only be the subject of an article where an article that satisfied notability criteria existed."
Therefore, since the crime is notable (moreover in regards to dissapearances, as WP's own example provides), then the identity of the victims is notable, and does not constitute a memorial. Losthistory ( talk) 01:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if abilities such as undo should still be allowed for anonymous IPs. I don't know if this has been discussed or is 'heretical' to the idea of Wikipedia. We have bots to watch for vandalism, and are looking to the review of articles, do we still need to allow full access for anon IPs? Is it time to review? Alaney2k ( talk) 20:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Not being interested in wiki-bureaucracy, I've kept my anonymity, despite the fact I've been on wikipedia for years, and have witnessed the perpetual bloat of rules and regulations - to the point where now, one needs not argue, they need only cite an appropriate regulation without considering the spirit. This idea's another globule of saliva in the face of the spirit of wikipedia - an encyclopedia where ANYONE can easily contribute, even if it's just correcting the grammar of a statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.24.53 ( talk) 18:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, what I wanted people to think about, is what should be allowed from the start, and what should be allowed after 'moving up' shall we say to a named editor. I've seen software in my experience that grows with your experience. After becoming a named editor, there are a few privileges, such as revert. So the idea is not unfamiliar here on Wikipedia. I was thinking about the idea of the undo and how you could just as easily be abusive with the undo as a new user. Well maybe we should extend the idea of the controls on an anon to a newly-created user. What if we have a simpler interface for newly-created users, that makes it harder or not allow undos of other's work until you've edited a few times? Insert a few 'are you sure' prompts on the undos and we might dissuade vandals. But just a few. Only at a level that we can feel comnfortable with. And that is what my point is, are we comfortable with a small level of blockage for newbies and anons? Like putting in 'are you sure' prompts and making edit summaries mandatory?
I feel we can move in this direction. I think we can become more graduated in permissions, and as part of this be more friendly. Is that a fair trade-off? Alaney2k ( talk) 23:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I visited the entry for Albert Speer, which contains the following: Albert Speer (born Berthold Konrad Hermann Albert Speer[1] and pronounced /ˈʃpɛɐ/;
I understand that Wikipedia has a pronounciation policy but when I, a native English speaker, holder of a law degree _and_ a Masters in English, don't have a clue about how to pronounce "Speer" after reading the entry, there is a problem with the policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.183.92.50 ( talk) 18:41, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
[[Wikipedia:IPA for English|IPA pronunciation]: /ˈʃpɛɐ/
so it would at least be clearer where you can go for help with IPA; right now, it isn't obvious that the pronunciation is linked. But better still, IMHO, is to nuke them. --
Floquenbeam (
talk) 20:29, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
(undent) Fact: There is no one system of pronunciation that works perfectly for all languages and dialects and is easy to understand. Fact: IPA is the most unambiguous system available. Given those, I think there's a case for including IPA pronunciations. If there are more than three major (regional) pronunciations, there's probably a case for some prose explaining it in its own section, or a footnote. If there are three or fewer, it's probably fair to keep it in the lead. We gain from diversity as long as we don't overdo the length (and if we can overdo the length, the footnote case is often worthwhile). I like the respelling system, and personally I'd be happy with an overlapping combination of the simple respelling and unambiguous IPA. Pronunciations probably don't need strict sourcing, though BLP might apply to some extent for names, e.g. Neil Gaiman, but names are usually much more sourceable if they're ambiguous enough to need pronunciation. I don't think this is an area where we have serious problems. {{ Nihiltres| talk| edits}} 04:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
The IPA pronunciation of Albert Speer as given above (until I correct it in a few) is factually incorrect. It is the German pronunciation, but linked to the English IPA key. It needs to either be made English, or linked to the German IPA key.
A few misunderstandings above, made worse by this bad example. First, the IPA is used in English dictionaries, including the greatest of them all, the OED. Second, the English IPA key we use works equally well for all major English dialects, though it's missing a few distinctions of Scottish etc. It's been designed so that you don't have to speak the same dialect as the transcriber. If you do, it's been transcribed incorrectly. As for sourcing, we do have sources for many names. Sourcing problems are on a case by case basis, not a problem for the system itself.
Van Gogh is a good example of a pronunciation guide that became overly intrusive and was turned into a footnote. I agree that it is often disruptive in the lead; on the other hand, with counter-intuitive pronunciations it is often best IMO to set the record straight right away, so the reader doesn't go through the article with an incorrect pronunciation in their head. In the case of Speer, I don't see any reason for the IPA to be in the lead rather than in a footnote, but that's a decision for the people getting the article to FA status.
We have both a respelling system and an AHD-type system for use on WP, though by common consensus they're secondary to the IPA. The respelling system can even handle the Scottish fur-fir-fern distinction that our IPA convention cannot, but it has trouble with simple words like "vice". The AHD-type system is going to be gibberish to most people outside the US.
As for people, mostly Americans, whose knowledge of the IPA is on par with their comfort with the metric system, that's what we have the keys for. Click on the IPA and you'll be taken to a page that explains it to you. (Note that in order for them to be unambiguous, respellings and the AHD also need to be linked to keys.)
We've been working on & off on a pop-up to remind people of the IPA for English phonemes, but there are technical difficulties that have prevented us for doing that satisfactorily. If any of you can figure out how to fit a summary on a mouse hover-over window, that could be very useful. kwami ( talk) 05:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I rather object to the "nobody knows it" trope. A very large number of users of the English WIkipedia are people who have learned English as a foreign language, and ALL of them made use of the IPA in their dictionaries. -- Evertype· ✆ 17:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
How should the lead section of the policy page on policies and guidelines be worded? Opinions sought at WT:Policies and guidelines#Language getting more abstruse.-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Some people confuse prominence with notability in discussing Wikipedia practice, policy, and guidelines. I try to disambiguate between the two topics. Please help, if you'd like.
Wikipedia:Notability vs. prominence
ScienceApologist ( talk) 19:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Should the current "guideline" page be removed so it can be replaced with a proposed policy page and what weight should be given to the only community-wide request for comment?
At part of the core issue is we have a proposed "guideline" page which attempts to overview current practices and a proposed policy page which seems to want to take a more aggressive tone on the issue. Can two pages be developed in tandem? More eyes would be appreciated. -- Banjeboi 01:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I saw at the Gaza War and the Battle of Kosovo articles a (KIA)-sign for muslims who were killed in action, instead of the usual †-sign. The argument given at the Battle of Kosovo was, that "muslims have their own sign." This might be true, but the old Romans at the Battle of Carrhae and the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, the greek commander at the Battle of Marathon or the Japanese commander at the Battle of Peleliu weren't Christians either, and I guess they would have had their own signs as well. And still they got crosses or, better, daggers behind their name. Moreover, according to the Dagger-article, this sign is used in military history to be "placed next to the name of a commander who is killed in action"; it doesn't give any exclusions for it.
So my question is: should WP always use the †-sign, or should we use all kinds of symbols for every group that has another sign for people ho were "kiled in action"? Jeff5102 ( talk) 12:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Hm. If they do have their own sign, what does it look like, and is it in Unicode? -- Evertype· ✆ 17:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
If interested, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics#Outlines in general and List of logic topics. Is it me or is this dispute getting increasingly bitter? Can something be done to nip it in the bud before it degenerated into mindless move warring?-- RDBury ( talk) 22:05, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Related ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Kosovo-related articles) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Naming ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I didn't know how to spell the man's name, so I decided to help others who might want to find it.
What's the proper hatnote for the top of Carl Meyer? Because there are two different disambiguation pages for two different spellings of the name. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Done. Thanks. Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:WikiProject/Naming convention ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)/Counties ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a policy. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
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Is it permissible to place the table of contents of a book in an article about that book or is that a CV? RJFJR ( talk) 16:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I would like to gather some opinions regarding the style of the introductory sentence in articles on animals. In particular, the difference between bolding and not bolding the italicized scientific name of a species with a well-known popular name. For the purposes of this opinion poll, forget current policy and guidelines, and merely focus on which style you think looks better. For example, which do you prefer, the top or bottom version of the following introductory paragraph from the "Blue Whale" article?
The Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine mammal belonging to the suborder of baleen whales (called Mysticeti). Long and slender, the Blue Whale's body can be various shades of bluish-grey dorsally and somewhat lighter underneath. [1] There are at least three distinct subspecies: B. m. musculus of the North Atlantic and North Pacific, B. m. intermedia of the Southern Ocean and B. m. brevicauda (also known as the Pygmy Blue Whale) found in the Indian Ocean and South Pacific Ocean. B. m. indica, found in the Indian Ocean, may be another subspecies. As with other baleen whales, its diet consists almost exclusively of small crustaceans known as krill.
or
The Blue Whale (Balaenoptera musculus) is a marine mammal belonging to the suborder of baleen whales (called Mysticeti). Long and slender, the Blue Whale's body can be various shades of bluish-grey dorsally and somewhat lighter underneath. [2] There are at least three distinct subspecies: B. m. musculus of the North Atlantic and North Pacific, B. m. intermedia of the Southern Ocean and B. m. brevicauda (also known as the Pygmy Blue Whale) found in the Indian Ocean and South Pacific Ocean. B. m. indica, found in the Indian Ocean, may be another subspecies. As with other baleen whales, its diet consists almost exclusively of small crustaceans known as krill.
You can see the changes in the context of the real article here and here and I encourage you to look at those before deciding your opinion. When you vote, a quick note why you liked the one over the other is fine but please save your longer arguments for later as this is just intended to be a quick straw poll. Jason Quinn ( talk) 20:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Recently there as been a series of "Comparison of" articles sent to WP:AFD. Now some of this seems to be a bee in the bonnet of one particular editor, but on the other hand I see these tending to fall into one of two classes:
I think it would easier on everyone's namespace to insist that the first type prefer the "List of" rather than "Comparison of" convention. We have plenty of tabular lists and I'm also seeing some probably inadvertent content forking due to the two naming possibilities.
The second type is the one that I think will be controversial, but I do think we need to deprecate this type of article. The problem I see is that these almost invariably have original research and notability issues. The first is more obvious: it seems to me that the argument is coming from the author(s) not from some external authority; they tend to read like research papers, well-cited or not. The second is a more subtle problem, but it seems to me that in most of the non-list cases I've come across it's not been all that clear that anyone beyond the author really cares about the comparison being made. I mean, you could write an article named Comparison of Beowulf and Gilgamesh, and it can be heavily cited; but what you will get is someone's term paper.
I think at least we need some sort of guideline discussion about this, similar that which one assumes has already been done for lists. Mangoe ( talk) 14:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
(undent) My spin on this is that the comparison should be notable in its own right before we have an article on it, otherwise the article risks WP:OR. SDY ( talk) 18:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
The software comparison pages primarily just present the data and let the user do their own comparisons. Those should be fine (though the wiki farms one is a little borderline with its generic "features" section; something more like Comparison of wiki software would be better). However, given the subjective nature of literary analysis something like Comparison of Beowulf and Gilgamesh cannot easily be condensed into lists of factual comparisons, would almost certainly be a haven for original research, and should be avoided. Mr. Z-man 18:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia currently has the process pages for Help:Merge and WP:Split, but no clear guideline in place to ensure that contributors understand the attribution requirements for reusing text within Wikipedia. It is brushed on at WP:C, but not clear, and I believe that expanding its coverage there would muddy the waters of that policy's primary purpose. I would like to propose this new guideline to govern Help:Merge and WP:Split and to which contributors may easily be pointed when they inadvertently violate copyright by failing to attribute (and this happens all the time). Feedback and assistance at that talk page in reaching consensus would be very much appreciated. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
U.S.C. Title 18, Part I, Chapter 33, § 701 provides fines and up to six months' imprisonment for unauthorized use of US gov't insignias. The USFWS website's "Digital Rights, Copyright, Trademark, Patent Laws" notice page, citing restrictions published in the Federal Register (Vol. 49, No. 30, page 5387), says that any use without permission is prohibited and that the logo may appear only on official FWS documents (and that §701 provides for enforcement). Nevertheless, the USWFS logo is widely used on WP and other WM projects (the Commons image file page includes an explanation of the restrictions on use). Should it be?
I understand this is not a copyright issue as the Service logo is in the public domain. But Wikipedia:Logos#U.S._government_agencies states that "[u]se restrictions of such logos must be followed and permission obtained before use." Should it be removed, for example, from Commons:Template:PD-USGov-FWS and Commons:Template:FWS Image (which I created)? -- Rrburke( talk) 16:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
49 FR 5387
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Fish and Wildlife Service
AGENCY: Fish and Wildlife Service, Interior.
February 13, 1984
Official Insignia Change ACTION: Notice of Official Insignia Change.
SUMMARY: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service official insignia designation published in the Federal Register on September 5, 1978 (43 FR 39444), is hereby cancelled. This notice changes the official insignia of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The Service insignia was changed in 1978; however, publication of this change was overlooked at the time. This action accomplishes the official designation of the insignia now in use by the Service.
EFFECTIVE DATE: February 13, 1984.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Jim Gillett, Chief, Division of Refuge Management, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Washington, D.C. 20240, (202) 343-4311.TEXT: SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: The insignia depicted below is prescribed as the official insignia of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Department of the Interior. [See Material in original]
In making this prescription, notice is given that whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses this insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph or print, or impression in the likeness of this insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, without authorization from the United States Department of the Interior is subject to the penalty provisions of section 701 of Title 18 of the United States Code.Dated: February 6, 1984.
Rolf Wallenstrom,Acting Director, Fish and Wildlife Service. [FR Doc. 84-3863 Filed 2-10-84; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4310-07-M
When a template is subst'ed, does CC licensing not require that the name of the template be included in the comments e.g., <!-- template:test5 -->
? Otherwise, the template's authors' work goes uncited, violating the attribution clause of CC. I am worried, for example, about {{
RD medremoval}} and {{
DRV bottom}}. As a note, it's my estimation that
templates with very basic syntax (e.g., {{
Hidden archive bottom}}) would be excluded.
Magog the Ogre (
talk) 13:48, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)/Usage of American ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
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I'm having some difficulty resolving an image license for File:StarAirServiceIreneIrvine.jpg. Currently, it's licensed as a non-free image with an OTRS pending ticket. My question is whether the picture which is currently licensed as non-free needs to be released under a free license in order to stay on wikipedia. Does the image qualify as a non-free image?
The following is discussion from my talk page...
I have rec'd a series of emails from Permissions regarding my File:StarAirServiceIreneIrvine.jpg photo. Brief history - I obtained written permission for use of photo from owner (Univ of AK Fairbanks) & uploaded the pic to Wikipedia (NOT Commons) per your directions. ww2censor promptly marked it for removal requesting an email from owner (see my talk page). I rqst'd email from Univ of AK Fairbanks which they sent to me w/ copy to permissions. We thought this resolved the issue but then the emails from permissions to me started. If you like I can email you the complete series of emails, but following is the latest which describes the issue, which I don't know how to resolve:
[Ticket#2009101010027301] Authorization to use photo in a single Wikipedia article The email you have sent us regarding permissions reads (this is the email Univ of AK Fairbanks sent to permissions at my (OLD33) request:
"We don't have a signed agreement of use on file for you but that is standard when a photo is copied from Alaska's Digital Archive [on-line archive: vilda.alaska.edu], rather than being purchased from us. You checked with us before going on-line with your article, requesting permission to use the image. That permission was granted. You appropriately credit the collection and the institution, and acknowledge copyright. This meets the requirements for using photographs."
Images and other media are allowed only if they are under a free license (such as the above and certain other Creative Commons licenses). You can see the allowable licenses at < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags/Free_licenses>. If you provide us with a clear statement that the copyright holder is releasing this content for redistribution under an allowable license, then the content may be used on Wikimedia projects. The email template at < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CONSENT> can be used if needed. It is essential for Wikipedia that an exact license is agreed upon by the copyright holder which in this case may be the Alaskan Digital Archives but appears to be 'verso' which the archives state is the author of the image. Any ambivalence on this point is not acceptable. We sincerely apologize for any frustration caused by this. However, Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons respects the rights of copyright holders and has very stringent measures put in place to protect their rights. Please be assured that nothing will happen to the photo as long as the OTRS pending tag is on the page. Thank you for your understanding! Please see < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights> for more information. Yours sincerely, Elena Salvatore
I will appreciate your help!! Old33 ( talk) 15:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, considering that the image is being used as a non-free image, a free license may not be needed. What Elana is trying to point out is that the University didn't release the image under a free license.However, the image is currently licensed as non-free so I don't see it requires a free license. I will ask at WP:VPP what to do...but from what I see, you should point out that the image is currently licensed to be non-free, and that the point is to keep the image on wikipedia without requesting more permission. I personally don't really "approve" of the tone used at the end of the email...its a bit too cold....I will help you get this resolved once and for all. Smallman12q ( talk) 00:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Any advice is appreciated! Smallman12q ( talk) 00:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if anybody had done a study of differences in the policy and guideline pages of the different wikis? It strikes me that there must be something to learn from doing such a comparison every so often and it would tend to keep them in alignment as far as best practice is concerned. I don't suppose it really matters too much if the consensus is different in some particulars everywhere if they act with some common sense but it is a slightly disturbing idea when one goes to edit in a different one. Dmcq ( talk) 15:02, 25 October 2009 (UTC) By the way there seems to be a rather small and odd selection of other language equivalents to this page. Dmcq ( talk) 15:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
There was an RfC here which I closed as consensus to make this change. This closure was then questioned both by reversion and comments here. Following an ANI thread I was advised to bring it here to get an independent view. Dpmuk ( talk) 16:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
There are still some problems over this dispute despite more editors getting involved. I've reported the issue to AN/I to see if a there's edit warring or similar going on but it can only be useful if there are some more opinions on the issue. Dpmuk ( talk) 16:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Preparations are ongoing for the 2009 Arbitration Committee Elections, which will be held in December. The first step in the process is generating a list of General Questions that will be submitted by template to all candidates in this year's election. Questions may be broad and philisophical in nature, or may deal with a specific incident or case from the past year (or prior). General questions may not deal with an individual candidate or candidates - All editors will have a chance to ask specific questions or one or more candidates directly, once we actually have candidates.
The submission of questions is limited to editors eligible to vote in the election (You may use this utility to check your eligibility.), but all editors will be invited to discuss the candidates, once we have candidates to discuss. Questions should be submitted at The General Questions page. If you have additional questions or concerns regarding the question process, please ask here. Thank you for participating. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 12:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death, but the use of the word "football" to mean "soccer" on first reference on the Main Page today is gnawing at me. Now based strictly on Wikipedia:MOS#Opportunities_for_commonality, the term used, especially on first reference, should be the term that is unambiguous and common to all varieties of English: "soccer." Now many British patrons of the sperical-ball sport cringe at that word, so the awkward compromise term "football (soccer)" was created. Editors of pointyball articles always use "American football" on first reference. The standard should be the same for soccer articles. The soccer people might say the meaning is clear from the context, but that's only the case if you're used to seeing the word football meaning the round-ball game; if you're from a pointyball-playing place, it would certainly make you do a double-take. And if we accept the argument that the meaning of "football" should be clear from the context in this case, why shouldn't pointy-ball editors use "football" by itself on first reference in one of their articles? Wikipedia style should state that either "soccer," "football (soccer)" or "American football" should always be the first-reference term. -- Mwalcoff ( talk) 23:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
(undent) The in-article disambiguation of "American Football" vs. "Association Football" is helpful to the reader the first time the term "football" is used, but I agree that sometimes it's painfully obvious from context (i.e. in a picture caption of a biography's subject in uniform) and need not be explained. It should probably be wiki-pipe-linked the first time it's mentioned in an article as a confusion-killer of last resort. SDY ( talk) 15:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is useless to discuss this question. Almost every country except USA uses football as soccer. American is so proud of everything, and do not want to change. That’s fine. But everyone should respect other people’s cultures and habits. I like both American football and national football very much. So when I talk with American, I use soccer referring to national football. I just say “football” to mean national football when I talk with others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eeeeflying ( talk • contribs) 02:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK stations) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I would like to hear if anyone has any opinions on possibly updating or changing Wikipedia:Article size as many of its suggestions seem out-of-date and many articles are in violation of letter and/or spirit as currently written; even though the Community through practice has pretty much ignored the limit. I work mostly on municipalities and regions, so those are the examples I will give between 65 and 80- Albany, New York, Syracuse, New York, Providence, Rhode Island, Hartford, Ct, Rochester, New York, and Buffalo, New York are all more than twice the 32 kb limit that gets notification of size on the edit window; most larger cities are four or five times the 32 kb limit, (including some that are FAs]]- New York City (over 100kb even with every section having a split off, and sometimes that split off has multiple splitoffs of its own, such as the history section), Toronto, Chicago, Atlanta. If we take the wording on the wp:article size page at face value and to the letter with no common sense applied then all those articles named would need the "too long" template. Too many editors take the signal of that warning on the edit page as a reason to slap that template on the article. There is a footnote on the wp:article size page that tells you how to find the "readable prose" size, but even with that the current wording of the policy relies on alot of common sense, and as common sense is of short order around Wikipedia and IAR is not respected very much- the only result I can think of is for a rewrite, or a consensus opinion here at the VP (policy) that will give more detail on how the "too long" template should be used. Camelbinky ( talk) 22:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Talk page ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
The category of the 5P page is "policies and guidelines" but the page is not labeled as a policy nor as a guideline. I've seen people state that "policies flow from the 5 Pillars", but that cant be because WP:V and the other big major policies all predate the pillars, the 5 Pillar page was created by one editor in 2005. I understand it is put with other "principles" in a box at the bottom of all policy pages, but the second one listed in that template is itself clearly labeled as an information page. My personal opinion is that the 5P are nothing more than an information page that lists what happens to be common across all policies and that the 5P flow FROM policy instead of the other way around. I am curious what other's opinions are. I'd rather we have everyone state their opinion instead of people arguing about each other's opinions because that tends to stifle and discourage new people from coming in and stating their opinion; so while there isnt anything to "vote" on as there is no proposal I am proposing, it would be nice if we just had everyone state their own feelings on how they view the 5P without others judging or trying to say "your wrong". Camelbinky ( talk) 23:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
The way I see it (which I know is incorrect but still useful): the Five Pillars form a "constitution" of sorts, a mission statement. Policies ("laws") are written based on the authorities and principles in that document and give the practical implementation of the principles. Guidelines and the MOS ("regulations" or "standard operating procedures") are typically not directly tied to the five pillars in themselves, just established and respected interpretations of the policy and more subject to variations. By that logic, any guideline or policy should be able to be traced back to the five pillars. Again, that's just how I look at it, and given the humor targeted at corporate mission statements (set it to music!) it's probably not a big deal. SDY ( talk) 03:09, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Suppose in a WP:BLP article an editor A looks suspicious - meaning his edits looks like he is working for a group trying to push its agenda in to the Wikipedia article where that group is directly involved. Lets say that the Editor A seems like a paid editor implementing the groups agenda in to a particular wikipedia BLP article - What should be done is such a scenario?. Radiantenergy ( talk) 04:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I wanted to raise a question about whether it is appropriate to have pages in the "Wikipedia" namespace ( project space) that discuss projects that use Wikipedia material but are not officially affiliated with Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Currently there is at least one such page at WP:Semapedia, and there is an open MfD for a user page that is very similar and might be moved to the project space. I want to emphasize that I am not recruiting for people to come participate in the MfD (although of course all interested editors are welcome as usual). Rather, the discussion there led me to wonder about the general issue of whether there should be pages of this type. I am not talking about pages that discuss non-Wikimedia projects in contexts that specifically relate to maintaining Wikipedia, such as WP:OUTLET and WP:FORK. I'm talking about that are dedicated to describing a single, unaffiliated project that uses Wikimedia material in some way. Should we have such pages, and if so, what types of content and inclusion criteria should there be for them? If there is an established guideline around this type of material, please point me to it. I did not see any clear mention of this concept (positive or negative) at any place I thought to look, such as WP:PRJ and WP:NS. -- RL0919 ( talk) 23:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Thinking about the general issue some more, maybe the most constructive thing would be for those interested in these related-non-affiliated projects to start a WP:WikiProject (if there isn't one already), which can then host these description pages as sub-pages, and perhaps serve a coordination point for linking Wikipedia with these projects. Permanently living in userspace, or living in Wikipedia: space without obvious purpose, is not ideal. (Of course any projects sufficiently notable for mainspace should have articles anyway.) Rd232 talk 17:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
A discussion about whether of not the infobox books template should include outside linkage from the OCLC number is posted here. If this issue matters to you please stop by and include your comments. Thanks. -- 69.226.106.109 ( talk) 06:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Can someone point me to policy, guidelines or essay articles which help answer the question of when an topic warrants a dedicated article, vs. when it would be better as a section of a larger topic. Beyond WP:N, and WP:RS of course.-- RadioFan ( talk) 12:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure who I need to contact or if this is even the right place, but I recently came across a book being sold on Amazon.com that seems to be a collection of Wikipedia articles, some of which I created. The book is selling for $79 and it is stated it "Ships from and [is] sold by Amazon.com". This does not seem legal, especially since the three listed editors are profiting from my hard work. Here is the link to the book:
If you click on the editors' names, you will see a huge listing of books that are ripped directly form Wikipedia. I am obviously not the first person to notice this. See this link for instance:
What can be done about this? Some kind of legal action should be taken here a.s.a.p! -- Ghostexorcist ( talk) 20:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
All I can tell from the covers is that it says "High quality content by Wikipedia articles." I doubt they list every single person who has ever edited the articles. Also, from reading various blogs, I get the feeling there are many people who buy the books believing them to be written by scholars. The statement about Wikipedia is very small and could easily be missed by a prospective buyer. -- Ghostexorcist ( talk) 21:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a related question perhaps some can help me with. I am local history buff of the Albany, NY area (New York's Capital District, I have started and contributed to a great deal of articles about the history, geography, etc of this area. What if I decide that I would like to write and have published a book regarding this area? I have put in alot of work finding sources and putting information on Wikipedia for free, and perhaps I would like to use that hard work in a more constructive manner for my checkbook? Obviously I wouldnt want to just take the Wikipedia articles and put them in a book, but obviously I'd use the same sources I used for those articles, and my writing style is my writing style so the book would come out to be similar to much of what I have written on WP. So would I have to put a disclaimer on my hypothetical book, which would then preclude anything I put in it from then being used by another Wikipedian even if I find something new to put in the book; the entire book would be "tainted" and not usable as an RS even if something in it was never used in Wikipedia in the first place if I have to put a disclaimer in it recognizing Wikipedia, because if even a few editors in the minority view say its tainted it will end up being tainted just as a "mirror site". If this is the case then I might as well stop all editing on Wikipedia and just work on publishing a book which I'll make money on. Why go to all the trouble and hard sweat and not have the opportunity of using it to get paid? The editors on here who do photographs for Wikipedia articles always have the opportunity to sell their photographs because they still own the photographs. Why cant I sell my knowledge and skill at finding and putting together interesting history of the region? Camelbinky ( talk) 21:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision) ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change ( more information). -- VeblenBot ( talk) 02:00, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
One of the most common questions on the help desk is of the following form: "Someone left a notice on an article indicating that it was deficient in some way (no references, lacking notability, too much advertising etc.). I made some changes to address the concern, but the notice is still there. What do I do now?" The assumption (quite a reasonable assumption, I would add) is that the person adding the notice is actively watching and will remove the tag when the deficiency is remedied. I suggest one of three options (of course, there may be more):
I'm open to alternatives, but I'll re-emphasize that the newbie expectation is plausible, so we should either meet it or correct it. Implementing any of these options should receive a fair amount of consensus before proceeding— WP:Bold is not the right option. I prefer options 2 or 3 because I think option one is like holding back the tide, but I'm not about to create a few dozen templates and rewrite the usage guidelines without broad support.-- SPhilbrick T 17:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Tags could point to the Content Noticeboard, or suggest people ask at the appropriate wikiproject, but that would probably bloat them too much. Maybe a single WP: page on the issue could be a short link in the tag, and clarify. Compare the link in {{ userspace draft}}. Rd232 talk 21:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
As some of our longer serving editors will know, I have spent much of the 2.5 years since achieving admin rights working in WP:CSD. And a lesser time in other areas. Now I know pefectly well this proposal is not going to run, but I make it just as a way of letting off steam. I have absolutely no problem with the CSD categories which currently exist. But I would truly love to see an additional category added to the list, which we perhaps might shortcut as WP:RST. This would expand as WP:REALLY STUPID. Anyone out there care to humour a long-serving editor on this one? -- Anthony.bradbury "talk" 21:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Dear Wikkid crew,
I know this is a long shot but could we finish with the so called "professional reviews" section on all music album entries (for example those of "allmusic", "blender", "rolling stone" et al.) The verdicts one gets from this lot are usually UTTERLY useless, worse, they are inanely bad in many cases. I get the impression that they are either pretentious and/or gutless in just following fashions. I know one can quite easily learn to ignore them but they still mis-lead many people. In general no one else's opinion on an album is worth damn to anyone else.
By the way all my LURRVE to the entire community that have worked so hard to keep Wikipedia a reliable and interesting source of information, the only one on many subjects in fact!!!
Keep up the good work lads and lassies!!
James. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apeonurback ( talk • contribs) 22:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
I want to start this off by making it very, very, very clear that this issue isn't about our non-free content guidelines. Recent conversations on this point have been blurring this distinction and muddling the picture. The non-free content guidelines here are largely irrelevant. With that out of the way...
Starting much earlier this year, but especially in the last month, I've been removing sport logo icons from the infoboxes of university articles, doing so per the last paragraph of WP:MOSLOGO which states "Use of company logos, sports team crests and other copyright protected or trademarked images in articles can usually only be done on a fair use basis (generally as an illustration of the primary subject - eg the IBM logo on the IBM article). Use of such images as icons is nearly always prohibited (see Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline and Wikipedia:Logos)." It is my belief that this guideline is pretty unequivocal with regards to the use of trademark images. Note that the guideline says "or" not "and" for the 12th word. This is an important distinction.
The concern regarding the use of trademark icons first entered into the WP:MOSLOGO guideline in September of 2008 [14]. It's been evolving since. A version from May of this year [15] shows the intent. This was later reworded to what we have now.
I feel the use of trademark sports logo icons in university infoboxes is inappropriate because:
In particular, this RfC asks:
Your input welcome. Thanks, -- Hammersoft ( talk) 15:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Note: I anticipated having a hard time keeping this discussion focused on the two questions outlined above. I just didn't anticipate it would fork in the way it did :) I've refactored some comments in an attempt to keep elements of the discussion focused in appropriate places. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 22:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
keep alive edit intended to keep thread from being archived before RfC has run for 30 days -- Hammersoft ( talk) 22:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
keep alive edit intended to keep thread from being archived before RfC has run for 30 days -- Hammersoft ( talk) 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
After more than 30+ days, I see few people objecting to the removal of iconized sports logos, and most people expressing support for removal. Any disagree with that assessment? -- Hammersoft ( talk) 13:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I think the university/school articles should have the seal at the top and the school graphic at the bottom (which seems to be the norm). All other logos should be elsewhere in the article (if applicable). Given the prominence sports teams and their identies as prominent school ambassadors, the primary logo for the sports teams is optional, but appropriate, in the athletics section; This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Other discussions exist on this subject. They are listed below. This RfC is another attempt to centralize discussion in a single, appropriate place that applies to the entire abstract concept being dealt with here.
The following subthreads were originally listed along with this discussion but have since been split into their own thread: