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Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
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Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing | Motion | ( orig. case) | 30 April 2024 |
Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation | none | ( orig. case) | 13 May 2024 |
Clarification request: Extended confirmed restriction | none | none | 29 May 2024 |
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Initiated by Cunard at 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions
This was previously discussed in an amendment request closed on 20 April 2024 and on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests.
Background
Before the 2 August 2022 deletion topic ban, TenPoundHammer nominated numerous articles for proposed deletion and articles for deletion. He also redirected numerous articles in 2022. This link shows the last 500 redirects he did before the 2 August 2022 topic ban. If you search for the text "Tags: New redirect Reverted" on the page, there are 189 results. At least 189 of the redirects he did between April 2022 and July 2022 were reverted.
TenPoundHammer resumed the actions that led me to create Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1101#TenPoundHammer: prods and AfDs, which was closed as "This matter has been escalated to the arbitration committee, which has opened a full case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing on this and other related matters" and is cited as "June 2022 ANI" in this finding of fact.
Evidence
I started a talk page discussion with TenPoundHammer on 2 March 2024 about TenPoundHammer's blanking and redirecting of Monkey-ed Movies ( link), Skating's Next Star ( link), Monkey Life ( link), 2 Minute Drill (game show) ( link), and Monsters We Met ( link) for lacking sources. I was able to find sources for these articles so reverted the redirects and added the sources. I asked TenPoundHammer to stop blanking and redirecting articles as it was leading to notable topics no longer having articles.
TenPoundHammer continued to redirect articles on notable topics. Between 11 March 2024 and 16 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 18 articles. Of those 18 articles, 14 were about television series (a topic I focus on): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. After spending many hours searching for sources, I reverted all 14 redirects and added sources to all 14 articles. For several of the topics (such as Queer Eye for the Straight Girl and Dice: Undisputed), sources could be easily found with a Google search.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected three book articles (another topic I focus on): 1, 2, and 3. I reverted the three redirects and added book reviews.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 33 articles. Almost all of those redirects are in the music topic area which I do not focus on. I am concerned about the large number of redirects of topics that could be notable.
On 12 April 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected the television show Las Vegas Garden of Love with the edit summary "unsourced since 2010, time to lose it". I found sources for the article and reverted the redirect. I found two of the sources ( The New York Times and Variety) on the first page of a Google search for "Las Vegas Garden of Love ABC". TenPoundHammer previously prodded this same article in May 2022, and another editor contested that prodding ("contest PROD, nom nominated 200 articles in a single day so it's impossible a BEFORE was done for each").
Analysis
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle. Reviewing this volume of redirects consumes substantial editor time. The redirects are leading to numerous notable topics no longer having articles. The redirects prevent the topics from undergoing community review at AfD, which TenPoundHammer is topic banned from.
Blank-and-redirects get significantly less attention than prods and AfDs. Television-related prods and AfDs are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Television and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Article alerts. But blank-and-redirects are not listed anywhere.
It is unclear to me whether the existing topic ban includes proposing articles for deletion. I recommend that the topic ban be expanded to prohibit both proposing articles for deletion and blanking and redirecting pages since there is previous disruptive editing in both areas where he has prodded or redirected a large number of articles about notable topics. This remedy does something similar for a different editor in the same arbitration case.
Here are quotes from three arbitrators about the topic ban in the 2022 proposed decision regarding the redirects and and proposed deletion:
"... Missing PROD was not intentional on my part but that also can be added." ( link)
Cunard ( talk) 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles, so I don't know why that was brought up. (Similarly, I don't know what the ruling is on deprodding but it's historically not been an issue for me, and I personally don't think it would be fair to deny me a chance to say "hey, wait, I can fix this".) Speed has been an issue, as has blunt edit summaries when I redirect something. Lately when I feel there is little to no content to merge, I try to spell out my WP:BEFORE steps in the edit summary when I redirect. I also generally don't unlink the page, to save the hassle if someone like Cunard comes along to revert my redirect and dump in some sources. One reason I don't try to initiate merger discussion is because no matter how hard I try, no one ever seems to respond. Witness Talk:Regis_Philbin#Proposed_merge_of_Joy_Philbin_into_Regis_Philbin, which opened two months ago and has had several reminders, but not a single person has lifted a finger. How long is that discussion going to gather dust? "There is no deadline" doesn't mean "do nothing and hope the problem somehow fixes itself". If I am to be topic-banned from WP:BLARing, then how can I get some action going in merger discussions? Since again, every fucking time I try, nobody acts like I'm even there -- but then two seconds after I give in and finally merge/redirect the damn thing, someone swoops in to revert me. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 23:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
I am Involved here. TPH and I came up together on this project and occasionally ran into one another on country talk pages although it has been some time since we substantively interacted. I also have the utmost respect for Cunard's research at AfD in that they not only say "sources exist" but find and annotate them for participants to assess. This is especially helpful personally in east Asian language sourcing. That said, Cunard's case here is strong. TPH sees it as their duty to clean up the project, but I don't think their strong feelings are backed by our policies, nor is there a pressing need to remove this content. The project will not collapse and these are mostly not BLPs. If they are, someone else can handle it. I believe TPH's topic ban should be expanded to include BLAR which is a form of deletion. I have no strong feelings on PROD personally. Star Mississippi 01:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Suggest:
If editors cannot agree, the content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used, such as restoring the article and nominating the article for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion.Since TPH is topic banned from AfD, nominating contested BLARs for deletion is off the table. Jclemens ( talk) 20:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation.
While a WP:BEFORE search may be a good idea, it isn’t one that there is a consensus to require - and it is one that there shouldn’t be a consensus to require until we place similar requirements, retroactively applying, on the creation of articles.
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle.
If we’re going to apply FAIT to the deletion of articles we need to first - and retroactively - apply it to their creation, otherwise we will have a situation where massive numbers of articles have been created in violation of FAIT but are almost impossible to address.
Further, I’m not convinced this is a FAIT issue; addressing previous FAIT issues is not itself a FAIT violation, even if done at a similar scale and rate.
The arbitrators may like to consider the itemized wording of another user's topic ban (linked in Cunard's request) or TenPoundHammer topic banned (2) (did not pass). They both call out article redirection explicitly.
Regarding WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive974#TenPoundHammer (2018 community topic ban, linked by Maxim), its closing statement does not mention redirects, and the closer clarified them as excluded within a few weeks.
I found four related diffs – none involving redirects – in Special:PageHistory/Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Wikipedia community. They are consistent with WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing/Evidence#TenPoundHammer has been subject to ANI discussion on multiple occasions.
Redirecting a page is not deletion.
If other editors disagree with this blanking, its contents can be recovered from page history, as the article has not been deleted.
Flatscan ( talk) 04:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
is not required but considered good practice when the main concern is lack of notability or sources.but for this editor, with this past, the lack of BEFORE when some high quality sourcing was available strikes me as an issue. Barkeep49 ( talk) 04:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
TenPoundHammer ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is indefinitely topic banned from removing all content in an article and replacing it with a redirect (commonly known as a blank-and-redirect, or BLAR). This topic ban will be suspended for a period of 12 months. This topic ban may be unsuspended and imposed onto TenPoundHammer if disruption by BLARing restarts, as determined by any of: (1) a consensus of administrators on WP:AE, (2) at least two arbitrators indicating "support" to unsuspend at WP:ARCA, with no opposition from other arbitrators indicated up to 48 hours after the second support, or (3) a majority of active arbitrators at WP:ARCA if there is opposition as indicated in condition 2. After 12 months, if it has not been imposed, the topic ban will be automatically lifted.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Other arbitrators feel free to modify the wording or to propose another motion below. Z1720 ( talk) 03:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
The
Manual of Style and
Article title policy are jointly authorized contentious topics. Speaking for myself, I have {{
Contentious topics/aware|mos}}
on my talk page, because I was (and am) aware that the MOS is a CTOP. I was unaware until earlier today that article titles are also a CTOP bundled with the MOS CTOP, even though I was technically aware of the article title CTOP.
It seems that others are also unaware (in the conventional sense) that article titles are CTOPICs; at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions it was about three days and 26KB of discussion before Guerrillero pointed out that article titles are already designated as a CTOP.
The MOS and article titles are related, but distinct, issues. I think they should be split into seperate CTOPs to reflect the fact that they are distinct issues. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
giv[ing] administrators an awful lot of discretion, I think that is the point of CTOPs: they give a lot of discretion to admins in areas that have historically been problematic. If admins abuse that discretion, that is a separate problem. We already have at least one CTOP ( infoboxes) which covers particular discussions about an article rather than the article itself. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Splitting the remedy is probably more trouble than it's worth. But while we're here: there hasn't been a logged sanction under this case since 2020, and that's probably because its scope is so narrow that most title- or MOS-related disruption isn't covered. Honestly there's a strong argument for just repealing it altogether, although the timing may not be right for that. An alternative would be to expand it to include RMs and the like (certainly there have been plenty of issues there), but that would give administrators an awful lot of discretion. The status quo of having the CTOP cover just the policy/guideline pages (which are often less contentious than the RMs) doesn't really make sense to me, though, and the lack of use suggests it's not doing much of value. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 03:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I would oppose splitting them, because the application of the MOS guidelines to the article titles policy was a large part of the controversy that caused me to file the case in the first place. See also Comet Hale–Bopp. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
There is a consensus among active arbitrators that the close of the conduct discussion was correct given that the initator did not have extended confirmed and the discussion fell with-in an extended confirmed restriction topic area. Barkeep49 ( talk) 15:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by Ivanvector at 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request Statement by IvanvectorThis request concerns the extended confirmed restriction and its applicability to complaints about user conduct within an affected topic. A few days ago, editor BugGhost initiated a complaint at ANI regarding editor PicturePerfect666's conduct in discussions at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024 ( ANI permalink). The complaint was entirely focused on PicturePerfect666's allegedly tendentious conduct with regard to information critical of Israel's participation in the song contest, reflective of real-world criticism and activism regarding Israel's ongoing invasion of Palestine. BugGhost specifically asked that PicturePerfect666 be topic banned. Since BugGhost is not extendedconfirmed, and the complaint entirely concerns conduct within that topic, I advised that the complaint could not proceed, but made no comment on its merit. My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them. On this I would like clarification, because I agree with some implicit criticism on my talk page that it is unreasonable. I have listed Valereee as a party because she added the contentious topics notice to the talk page on 28 December 2023 ( diff), but she is not involved at all in the incidents described. PicturePerfect666 and BugGhost should be self-explanatory, and Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor who asked about "adopting" (my words) BugGhost's complaint. -- Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ValereeeStatement by PicturePerfect666Statement by BugghostAs the newbie here that this request is concerning, I'm not completely certain what kind of comment is expected of me here, so I apologise if anything I say is irrelevant or out of scope. Before writing the AN/I, I looked at the ARBECR guidelines and didn't see any wording that said that my filing was against the spirit of it. My interpretation was that AN/I wasn't a page related to any specific contentious topic, and the filing I was making was about a specific user's conduct, not about the contentious topic itself, and so it wasn't against the spirit of the restriction. I still stand by that - I made sure that my filing did not in any way weigh in on arguments of the related contentious topic at hand, just the behaviour of the user as shown by their edits. My filing was neutral on the contentious topic itself, without editorialising and without any discussion of assumed motive behind the behaviour - only their edits were brought forward. A consequence from this closure is that raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a contentious issue is harder than raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a non-contentious issue. If PicturePerfect666's disruptive behaviour on the Eurovision page was instead about a different topic (say, the Dutch entrant's surprise disqualification), then an AN/I filing from myself would have gone ahead, because that part of the page is not under the ARBECR. But seeing as they were disruptive about a contentious issue, they have been able to deflect my concerns - which seems counter to the ARBECR's aims of reducing disruption on contentious topics. I think that the ARBECR is a good idea but can be hard to interpret, and has the ability to dismiss reasonable well intentioned actions. In my view, it can contradict the "assume good faith" mantra, as assumption that I filed the AN/I accurately and in good faith was "trumped" by the fact my edit count being too low. As I said on IvanVector's talk page, I spent a long amount of time compiling a long list of the user's disruptive behaviour for the filing, including very specific diffs to outline each example, and it being dismissed based wholly on my edit count was very demoralising. As backed up by Yoyo360 suggestion to "adopt" it, the AN/I has some merits worth considering. BugGhost 🎤 16:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Yoyo360I don't have much to add actually. I don't edit much on wiki:en, I'm mostly watching the talk pages of the Eurovision wikiproject to inspire me on the French-language counterpart (which is quasi inactive). I only come in when discussions have relevance for topics I also could add on wiki:fr and I noticed PP666 behaviour in the past weeks. I concur with everything BugGhost noted in their AN/I, they argued the case way better than I ever could. Noticing the topic had been closed due to the extended confirmed restrictions, I put myself forward to push the AN/I to be treated (as I now have the EC status on wiki:en) asking if it could be reopened in my name. I even have a few things to add to it but that's rather minor compared to the rest and off-topic here I think. Yoyo360 ( talk) 15:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Selfstudier
Statement by Sean.hoylandI think the closing was entirely appropriate and I agree with Selfstudier's statement. However, I think it is fair to say that the situation with respect to Yoyo360 at the time of the complaint posted by PicturePerfect666 at ANI is more complicated than "Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor". They were granted the privilege early (from an enwiki perspective) because, as the log says, they are a "10-year-old user with over 25,000 edits across all projects". This seems reasonable, pragmatic and it resolved the issue (although I'm sure imaginative people could cite it as yet another example of anti-Israel bias or rewarding complainers etc.), but for me, it's another reminder that none of us really know (based on evidence) the best way to implement/enforce EC restrictions in ARBPIA, how strictly they should be implemented, and that there is a lot of (costly) subjectivity and fuzziness involved at the moment. This is by no means a criticism or an endorsement of anything that happened in that thread by the way. I have no idea how to figure out how EC rules should work in practice to produce the best result. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 16:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) On gaming, as far as I can tell (in ARBPIA anyway), the notion of gaming to acquire the EC privilege only becomes useful after a person has become extendedconfirmed and you can see what they did with it. Statements about potential gaming before someone has reached 500 edits are usually not verifiable (e.g. unreliable inferences about intent) and not based on agreed methods to reliably distinguish between gaming edits and normal edits (probably because we can't really do that without the benefit of post-EC hindsight). It's true that gaming happens in ARBPIA and that the gaming vs non-gaming signals can sometimes be distinguished, e.g. here, where all of the plots that look like gaming, anonymized ARBPIA editors 2,5,6 and 7, are for editors blocked as sockpuppets. But regardless, I don't think there is much utility in raising gaming questions until after someone becomes extendedconfirmed and there is post-EC activity evidence to look at. To do so asks questions that can't be answered without a lot of handwaving fuzziness about revision size, necessity, constructiveness, gnoming-ness, character witness-like statements etc. AGF until there is a reason not to seems like the best approach to gnoming-like pre-EC edits. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 07:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I'll add some quick responses to Ivanvector's kindness and frustration from a different perspective (as someone only active in ARBPIA nowadays, and not to make content edits).
Statement by BishonenAfter Bugghost was informed on May 19 about the EC restriction on Eurovision Song Contest 2024 and told they had "nowhere near 500 edits", they have started what looks like an attempt to game the 500 edits restriction by doing a lot of simple spelling corrections and are by this means now rapidly approaching the 500. In many cases the changes aren't even corrections — they changed the form pre-determined to predetermined in hundreds of articles yesterday, even though both forms are acceptable, and similarly changed lots of instances of pre-suppose to presuppose, where also both forms are acceptable. They made no spelling-"correction" edits before they were made aware of the EC rule for the Arab–Israeli conflict. I like to AGF, but this is ridiculous. See WP:GAME. Bishonen | tålk 10:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC). Statement by Novem LinguaeBugghost has been rewriting the article Windows Presentation Foundation over the last week or so. In my mind he is a talented newer editor that is doing good content creation and article cleanup work. In light of the gaming concerns above, I'd like to make sure the positive aspects of this editor are also considered. Thank you. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 11:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Extended confirmed restriction: Clerk notes
Extended confirmed restriction: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
M.Bitton ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
There has been a long running dispute at Israel-Hamas war, including multiple reverts and discussions ( one, two, etc), over the lede's third paragraph; to resolve this I opened an RfC per dispute resolution. A few hours later, after three !votes including mine, Makeandtoss closed it, striking comments in violation of TPO. They had previously been involved in this dispute, in the article ( example) and in discussions.
I reverted, but shortly after M.Bitton reclosed it. They weren't involved in the immediate dispute but are generally, including expressing strong opinions on related content. The RfC was necessary and lacked sufficient issues to justify a premature close making closing it generally disruptive, but more so here because of their involvement, locking in a status quo that they both appear to favor.
Previously discussed at
ScottishFinnishRadish's talk page and
ARCA, where
Barkeep49 said they take a dim view of editors preventing this RfC
and recommended AE.
M.Bitton declined to self-revert.
Makeandtoss:
disingenuous edit summaries, edit warring, and treating Wikipedia as a battleground
M.Bitton:
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton
Extended content
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an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution) was not met
7,797 children and 4,959 womento
15,000 children and 10,000 women. Sourced.
The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza said.
Amnesty International and others have described that use of the term as weaponization of antisemitism. Sourced.
In an interrogation of Hamas militants, one militant said they were given permission to perform necrophilia. Source said
He also said they were given permission to rape the corpse of a girl.Also reintroduced a MOS:ALLEGED violation without explanation.
where thousands ... were massacred by the Israeli military, saying
restoring sourced content that was recently removed for no good reason; also clarifying perpetrator. Source contradicts this;
the Christian Phalangists who committed the massacre were Israel’s allies in the war.
The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza; it is disingenuous to quote only
Hamas-run Gazaand say it isn't attributing to the health ministry.
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton:
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
As evidenced by BilledMammal's own links above, there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four points, nor was there any attempt at conflict resolution that are outlined in WP:RFCBEFORE, which considers RFC a last option due to its time-consuming nature.
What I did was simply strike through the RFC, an action that was easily reverted, and I stopped and did not take it further. It would be disingenuous to claim that I had closed it, an irreversible action. Nevertheless, I will ensure to ask an uninvolved administrator to do this in upcoming incidents, which is indeed a better course of action.
That aside, this seems like an attempt to deflect from BilledMammal's own editing behavior, as they created the RFC in non-neutral phrasing without signing it, and then went ahead to vote with a signature, which creates a misleading first impression. Not to mention BilledMammal's edit warring by reverting other editors four times within the course of two hours relating to this incident: [4], [5], [6], [7].
I sincerely hope to see the day when editors are more interested in constructively contributing to Wikipedia than taking editors they disagree with to AE every time something happens. Makeandtoss ( talk) 10:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ScottishFinnishRadish: and @ Seraphimblade: First, thanks for the concerns. To add some context in response: I was blocked from that article on 14 October 2023, back when things were heated, and back when I did not completely understand what constitutes 1RR; I also wasn't able to appeal that 48 hour ban because it had passed while I was appealing. As for the second "sanction" on that article, I was warned for "slow motion edit warring" on that article backing in January 2024; because I had edited the same sentence multiple times in the lede over a few months according to developments on the talk page. Since then I have taken immense care to abide strictly by the guidelines at the article and across the topic.
My constructive and collaborative editing at the Israel-Hamas war article almost non-stop over the past seven months is evidenced by the fact that I am the third top editor by # of edits on the article having added 50k bytes and the 5th top editor on the talk page having added 70k bytes. Editing such a high-level and sensitive article while maintaining calm is not an easy task. Of course, striking through that RFC was a trout, which I have already pledged on SFR's talk page that it would not be repeated. The purpose of AE is to remedy behavior and not to punish editors. I really hope that a more balanced view of my editing is taken and that this minor mistake is not taken out of proportion. Makeandtoss ( talk) 09:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: I really appreciate the chance to present my perspective, and @ ScottishFinnishRadish:'s comment that shows their genuine dedication to handling this request appropriately.
First, note that the Israel-Hamas war article sees dozens of edits every day, and numerous discussions. Over the course of months this accumulates and gets inevitably confusing for everyone, especially as the ideas or edits are sometimes discussed in different phrasings or closely resemble one another.
The fact that I have created or engaged in these discussions shows my good faith and collaborative approach. In summary, this unfortunate incident took place in a sensitive RFC opened controversially and in a sensitive and highly active article. I accordingly made a hasty decision, to which I apologize about and vow that it would not be repeated. A lot of lessons learnt here: to specifically never strike through or remove any RFC; and more generally, to demonstrate greater patience, to put in greater efforts to examine similar situations, and to never act in haste.
As for the separate older incident with Number57 on 1 January, I did not say in the edit summary that no discussion had taken place, but that the RFC went against WP:RFCBEFORE, which states that if a dispute is between two editors they should seek WP:Third opinion first. After I removed the RFC, another third editor agreed with Number57's edit and disagreed with mine, and I stopped and did not take the issue further. Again, I was only made aware of the issues surrounding removing an RFC only after the recent incident. Makeandtoss ( talk) 23:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Responses to extended request
First, thanks to all the admins who are taking a lot of their precious time and effort to diligently examine this extended request as well and the responses.
relying exclusively on 3 Israeli sources for a controversial sentence is a conflict of interest( WP:QS section of WP:BURDEN).
the lack of consensus on talk pageas well as the
WP:ONUS and WP:BRD guidelines.
"Gaza Health Ministry"is not equal to the source's
"Hamas-run Gaza".
there is no need for attribution for Amnesty International, and that editors
should seek consensusfor this addition, for which there is an ongoing RFC now. Here I actually meant
WP:ONUS.
contravening WP:QS of WP:BURDEN, and in the same edit summary I cited
a source saying that these torture confessions were questionable. This removal came immediately after being reinstated following an initial removal by another editor, showing clear lack of consensus.
explicitly mentioned in WP:BURDEN as best practice.
10:00 and 11:00 after having started the dayand/or
13:00 and 14:00 after having finished my lunch break, so this is a coincidence on different days with no deliberate editing.
False. This move
is not a revert since the article's name had been stable for 6 weeks.
False. I had written most of the Walid Daqqa article and as evident by the still existing (6) edit summaries [17],
these reverts were made against non-confirmed users.
False. This is
not a revert as the content removed had been stable since at least 6 weeks[18].
misleadinglycited WP:BURDEN"
Falselyclaiming WP:BURDEN" => "Claiming WP:BURDEN"
I already explained the close when asked by ScottishFinnishRadish, so I won't repeat it here. I also wasn't involved in any of the discussions that led to RfC. Frankly, this report raises more questions than answers: if BilledMammal was really interested in SFR's advice, then why did they ignore it and why did they ignore the question that SFR asked them (about how to best formulate the RFC)? Someone who's starting a RfC for the benefit of the project would have no issue with what SFR suggested (working with others), but I guess that wasn't what they were after. Approaching me four days later with an ultimatum doesn't strike me as very constructive, especially considering the fact that I chose not to report them for violating 1RR multiples times. Bringing it to AE after raising it with SFR is just plain forum shopping. M.Bitton ( talk) 11:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I dont think it was a good idea to shut down the RFC. But on the process, if a user is blocked from a page for edit-warring, are they allowed to pursue dispute resolution related to that page while blocked? Or is that not similar to an editor violating a topic ban by making a report about the topic? nableezy - 13:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
less relevant at this point |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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In an interrogation of Hamas militants, one militant said they were given permission to perform necrophiliacited to Times of Israel which itself says
My sole contribution to the RFC was to add the comment "+1. Not signed either." to Makeandtoss rejection of it, the RFCbefore being unspecified as well as a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments that had not produced the desired outcome from the openers perspective, awkwardly lumped together in a single RFC. I sympathize with the frustration that led to its untimely closure and frankly think that complainant should devote some effort to figuring out ways to spend less time at this board. Selfstudier ( talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Seems it can't be bothWell, it can, I speak as someone familiar with the article and its history, what I mean is that those prior discussions were nowhere apparent at the RFC or even on the talk page, it being usual to specify an RFCbefore detailing them. I can try to locate the multiplicity of them in the talk page archives if desired, I assume OP knows where they are? Selfstudier ( talk) 14:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion?That's the point, it is valid and that's why editors taking part in an RFC need to know about those discussions, generally I would link them as part of an RFC(before) Not all editors are aware of prior discussions of which there may have been several. Selfstudier ( talk) 15:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Would a better, less inflammatory way to handle this have been pointing out those earlier discussions in the RFC discussion or bringing up that you believe they should be linked on BMs talk page rather than closing the RM or modifying the RFC statement?From where I'm sitting, which is quite frequently on the opposite side of the table from complainant, that thought is one step removed from what I see as the actual source of the problem, namely the opening of that particular RFC in that particular way in the first instance, then persisting with it when three editors came out strongly against the process. I would not personally have closed out the RFC but I don't disagree with it either, I think complainant should have done so themselves and we wouldn't be here, not for this at any rate. Selfstudier ( talk) 18:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
While BM is technically correct that an RfC does not have to be signed, when one of the principle disputants on a topic starts an RfC with their own preferences highlighted it is at least a very bad look if they refuse to have their name on it. And I mean "refuse", since BM twice deleted a signature that was added using {{unsigned}}. If there is a positive explanation for that I didn't manage to think of it. Zero talk 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Just saying... WP:Signatures says "Typing five tildes will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding your signature". So, while it is true that five tildes are permitted in an RfC, it is arguable whether that counts as a signature for the purposes of TPO. Zero talk 01:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
In this instance I am uninvolved in the RfC (and am largely uninvolved in ARBPIA). I wanted to draw attention to BilledMammal's using their own !vote in their own RfC as evidence that it should remain open, which I take to be a rather peculiar argument. Of the other two !votes, one largely resisted the way the RfC was framed, while the other did accept the framing but only answered two of the four RfC questions.
So to me, BM's argument amounts to an assertion that the way it is framed makes sense to them (though others evidently disagree) and that they have voted in it therefore it must stay open. To insist on this, in spite of the lack of RFCBEFORE and quite evident flaws in the RfC's construction, strikes me as an attempted deployment of bureaucratic proceduralism unworthy of BM or of enwiki in general.
To then "seek justice against one's enemies" (Plato, not a wikipedian) in this forum, after having been banned temporarily from the Talk page in question, seems to me like a failure of judgement given the overwhelming lack of support for BM's framing of the RfC in the first place. The only likely outcome of that RfC, given the responses to it on Talk and on SFR's Talk, was a "malformed RfC" outcome, and I don't see how devoting photons and editors' time to hashing out that outcome would have served anything but BURO. Newimpartial ( talk) 14:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
disingenuous. I read "points" in the summary as meaning "proposals" and I don't see how any of the proposals received an appropriate RFCBEFORE. For any that did, it seems to me that it was up to the person filing the RfC to document the BEFORE, in any case, so the interpretation that "these points/proposals did not receive a prior discussion that satisfies RFCBEFORE" strikes me as entirely reasonable even if others read the situation differently. I certainly don't see anything "disingenuous" about the summary, even though of course nobody INVOLVED ought to he closing anyone's RfC but their own. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't have a view on this particular situation, but for context, I thought it would be useful to flag up that I have also experienced Makeandtoss shutting down an RfC after others have commented (see here). Number 5 7 17:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Closing an RfP this way seems rather disruptive (per WP:RFC, An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be
). Usually users unhappy with an RfC would !vote Bad RfC and explain their reasoning. Why couldn't it have been done in this case?
Alaexis
¿question? 21:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
It was a complex RFC from the get-go, and seemingly not prompted by sufficiently rigorous prior discussion so as to actually warrant such a complicated RFC (the only linked discussions are a couple that appear to have simply petered out). RFCs are by nature time consuming for the community, and can also hamstring routine discussion and editing but putting a freeze on any topic covered by the RFC until complete. It is not in the project's interest to have a proliferation of badly scripted, overly complex RFCs floating around, and closing such examples down is quite sensible from a WP:NOTBURO perspective. There aren't many other avenues open for nipping bad RFCs in the bud. If everyone just attends and votes "bad RFC" then that's time-consuming participation. Alternatively, editors could try to petition the admin noticeboard for an admin to strictly enforce WP:RFCBEFORE, but if this is a routine action, it's not one that I've observed, even though WP:RFCBEFORE is in principle quite strict and, one might think, enforceable. This close was a no-nonsense attempt to strictly adhere to WP:RFCBEFORE, and perhaps recourse to the admin board would have been a better option, but the intentions appear reasonable. It feels like the best way to deal with an RFC that fails WP:RFCBEFORE is actually a bit of a grey area, and one that perhaps needs better clearing up. Iskandar323 ( talk) 02:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I agree that RFCs shouldn't be closed so early by involved editors. However, on seeing the closure, I was glad it helped us avoid another heated discussion on that very Talk page that was extremely unlikely to produce anything resembling consensus. BilledMammal was right to write that perceptions of the editor who opened the RfC may influence how editors perceive the RfC
, and so given their rather contentious editing history in Palestine-related topics, they decided not not to sign their name. Yet we were at it again. When going through the questions, I was disappointed (but not surprised) to find out how POV the structure was – it concerned adding inline attribution to the internationally accepted numbers of Palestinian victims of the Israeli invasion (inline attribution is not normally necessary and suggests an opinion, not a fact – our policy requires it
if there is a disagreement between sources
) or contrasting these numbers with Israeli-provided numbers of supposedly killed militants, even though the latter are widely considered unreliable and few media carry them. Judging from the past discussion history on that article and the POV split of the most active editors, this RfC was not going to end up in a consensus.
So, as much as the close was procedurally wrong, I'm of the view that it ultimately befitted that article and the wider readership. A trout for everyone, as Valereee wrote, and move on. — kashmīrī TALK 22:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Lots of verbiage above but it's a simple issue. RfCs are not to be closed by involved editors. Involved editors who do so should get sanctioned, for this is a contentious topic area and there needs to be extra efforts made to enforce the rules, and I don't mean "trout slaps." Coretheapple ( talk) 22:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ScottishFinnishRadish: and @ Seraphimblade: as you consider sanctions, I'd like to add that Makeandtoss is exceptionally productive. They are one of the very few users I see regularly creating new articles or significantly expanding existing ones in the Arab-Israeli conflict area. They have an impressive User:Makeandtoss/DYK record (many of them in the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area), with some DYKs of articles they created still active (eg Killing of David Ben Avraham). They helped promote articles in this topic area to GA status (eg Battle of Karameh, Black September, Hussein of Jordan etc). Just last month, they wrote the entire History of Palestinian journalism article. I've also seen them create useful stubs (eg Mohammad Hyasat of the Jordanian Air Force, who helped defend Israel from Iranian attacks). VR (Please ping on reply) 11:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four pointsor was this
a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments. Seems it can't be both. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
what I mean is that those prior discussions, so there was prior in-depth discussion? Those talk pages are fast moving, and the archives are already huge. If the discussion happened a couple months ago, does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion? ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
If a signature violates the guidelines for signatures, or is an attempt to fake a signature, you may edit the signature to the standard form with correct informationand TPO is clear that editors may
...not modify the signature on others' posts for any other reason.Barkeep49 ( talk) 14:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Should the number of militants that Israel has stated they have killed be included? Should we describe the number of women and children killed as...with a summary of
no discussion has taken place about these points.
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Removing referenced statements & replacing with
original research
Gaza Health Ministry
1.
15:12, 13 May 2024
Rafah offensive
2.
09:55, 9 May 2024
General 1RR violations:
Rafah offensive
1.
09:55, 9 May 2024 - Referenced sentence removed
Palestinian political violence
2.
17:19, 8 May 2024 - User revert
War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war
3.
08.13, 25 April 2024 - Referenced sentence removed
Gaza–Israel conflict
4.
17:56, 24 April 2024 - User revert
Zionism
5.
21:05, 21 April 2024 - User revert
Israel and apartheid
6.
15:38, 21 April 2024 - User revert
Palestinian political violence
7.
14:35, 21 April 2024 - User revert
2024 Israeli strikes on Iran
8.
16:58, 19 April 2024 - User revert
9.
09:25, 19 April 2024 - Reverted to a previous version
10.
08:25, 19 April 2024 - Sentence removed without edit summary
I typically don't mind trivial 1RR violations if they were made in good faith. However, it struck me that the user had made hundreds of copy edits, from 20 to 31 March 2024, spamming categories to articles, in order to pass the 500 edit requirement for extended confirmed protection. Subsequently, they solely began editing controversial ECP articles in an aggressive manner. Additionally, it concerns me that the user was previously blocked for not disclosing their paid editing. Ecrusized ( talk) 18:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
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Hi, everyone My name is Gal, Gal the teacher (in Hebrew with English letters it comes out GALAMORE). I entered Wikipedia because I wanted to write about technology, I wrote the article on Perplexity.ai (which received 568,902 views so far!!), after I wrote about a few more high-tech companies I was temporarily blocked and warned not to engage in business matters probably for fear of receiving money for it. Almost every morning, before I start teaching, I go to Wikipedia to edit and I enjoy it very much. I am Israeli, so the Israel related topics interest me. If it is relevant, politically, in Israel I believe in peace with our neighbors and want an end to wars. When I see something that is biased, I try to balance it and bring sources from both sides. Even if there is an Israeli editor who makes claims that are "in favor of Israel" but are not substantiated, I will correct it - because I truly believe in balanced coverage of topics. I am not obssessive to my edits, I just enjoy adding information and I think it is productive to humanity.
On this occasion, may I ask where and when can I request that the prohibition to write on tech companies be removed? Galamore ( talk) 07:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
In addition, the offensive resulted in the temporary closure of the Kerem Shalom and Rafah crossings, further exacerbating the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
Kerem Shalom was closed due to the Hamas attacks, and now reopened, this is wrong and outdated.
But Israel closed the Kerem Shalom crossing after a Hamas attack on Sunday killed four soldiers in the area, then mounted an incursion on Tuesday that closed the Rafah crossing along the border with Egypt.
The GHM's casualty reports have received significant attention during the course of the Gaza–Israel conflict. GHM's casualty reports are considered credible by two scientific studies published in The Lancet.
The casualty reports issued by the GHM during the Israel–Hamas war have been subject to significant scrutiny. While some advocate for their accuracy, others cast doubt on their reliability.
Warned by another user about 1RR violation on 10:45, 14 April 2024. Did not self-revert.
the latest change seems to come from virtually inexperienced editors, Galamore and GidiD with a heavy Israeli bias
OP doesn't seem to know what 1RR means. Zero talk 09:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
For the sake of completeness, see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Galamore, gaming the system Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
And the discussion Talk:Israel–Hamas war#UN changes reported casualty figures. Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
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Background evidence: 18 May 2024 AtikaAtikawa knows how to post an edit request
Various comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war ( permalink)
Creation of Israel–Palestine conflict userboxes
Polemicizing in MfDs for the aforementioned userboxes:
The editor has eight mainspace edits. All of their mainspace edits have been made between January and September 2020. The editor has 177 total edits, of which 31.1% have been deleted. 69.7% of their live edits have been to userspace. The user is generally inactive as an editor of Wikipedia, but has increased activity probably due to interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict, but instead of resuming normal editorial activity, which would mean making edit requests for a while, the activity has been predominantly polemical. Therefore, seeing all of this user's edits in total, the user is WP:NOTHERE.
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
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Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
As for the comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war. I acknowledge that I failed at understanding ECR limitations when I made them; A rookie mistake that stems from the fact that I just started having interest in editing Wikipedia, and I'm still familiarising myself with the rules. In fact I was warned and I did obey. Briefly, I acknowledge my mistake here.
As for the userboxes. I hope that you take into consideration my arguments in their MfD entries. Basically, I think that Alalch E. is assuming bad faith since he is accusing me of endorsing violence and deeming atrocities as just with no basis, and I think that I actually clarified that through the documentation that the filer deemed as "apologia for violence including atrocities against civilians" when it is just a statement of a viewpoint, that is against violence from both sides.
As for the polemical comments. They were basically just answers to comments that were polemical themselves rather than referring clearly to policies that I did break. I totally understands that two wrongs don't make a right, but I'm really open to advices that concern how could I have handled this better.
As stated above, I'm well aware that I'm unexperienced, and I hope that my niche interest in the Arab-Israeli conflict will not be somehow held against me, rather I hope for whatever answer I'll get to this to contain referrals to the rules I broke in order to be mindful to them from now on.
I acknowledge that my behaviour was suboptimal, and I acknowledge that it did stem from a potential lack of understanding the rules from my part, and I welcome any decision that comes from your part with the hope that it will serve the noble goal of making me a better editor with a better service to the encyclopedia rather than punishment just for the sake of it.— Yours Truly, ⚑ AtikaAtikawa 15:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Technical picky point, defendant is non EC and not permitted to make statements here (or anywhere, really). An admin could/should deal with this? Selfstudier ( talk) 15:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Seconding Selfstudier here - the defendant is several hundred edits short of XC status anyways, so this should be a fairly textbook warning (or TBAN) for violating the ARBPIA XC restriction rather than a drawn-out AE case. The Kip ( contribs) 16:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
@ Alalch E.: can you remove this inflammatory comment? There are AGF interpretations of AtikaAtikawa's userbox, and these were given by Robert McClenon and Chaotic Enby. AtikaAtikawa themself wrote that the userbox doesn't support political violence, yet you still throw words like "pro-terrorism" around, and that raises the temperature. VR (Please ping on reply) 21:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Per a consensus of uninvolved administrators Afv12e, is indefinitely topic banned from India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Afv12e
This user has, IMHO, had too much rope: despite numerous warnings, they seem unable or unwilling to learn our PAGs. I would suggest a TBAN, but a normal indefinite block would not go amiss. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 20:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Afv12eStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Afv12e
I apologize for the oversight regarding the image source. The image was sourced , and the copyright status is provided. I will ensure that all future images have clear and verifiable sources. The caption content was intended to summarize the image and it was taken from here [21]; (the caption reference , added here as the editor pointed out that i took image but to specify that i took reference for captions) however, I recognize the need for proper sourcing and will add references to support the information provided.
I acknowledge that the sentence was unintentionally copied. I have rewritten the sentence to better paraphrase the source. The source used describes the broader Khilafat Movement, and I have now included additional sources that specifically discuss the Malabar rebellion to support the content.
The primary source was used to provide a firsthand account of the events. However, I understand that secondary sources are preferred. I will replace the primary source with Secondary Source to ensure better adherence to Wikipedia's guidelines.
I have actively participated in discussions, as seen in [22] [23] [24]. I admit that there were misunderstandings, but I have since reviewed Wikipedia's policies on verifiability and reliable sourcing. Moving forward, I will ensure all contributions are well-sourced and properly vetted.
I have taken past warnings seriously and have made significant efforts to improve my editing practices. Recent contributions such as [25] [26] demonstrate my commitment to following Wikipedia's guidelines and making valuable contributions.
I am a relatively new user on Wikipedia, with around 300 edits and 8 months of experience. I am still learning and navigating Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I appreciate the feedback and am committed to improving my contributions to the community.
Sincerely, Afv12e
Statement by 86.23.109.101I agree with Vanamonde93 that a topic ban or block is required here. A couple more examples of disruption from the last few days:
This AN thread [34] from a few days ago may be relevant here. 86.23.109.101 ( talk) 21:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by BlackOrchidd
Statement by Abhishek0831996See Afv12e's edit warring on Malabar rebellion, especially this type of editing and edit summary. He is clearly not serious about what he is editing. This particularly confirms that he is editing to impose his agenda. His behavior on a recent WP:AN report was also very bad. [35] I agree Afv12e should be topic banned or blocked. Abhishek0831996 ( talk) 06:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by GrabupAs far as I can see from his edits, I am convinced that he should get a topic ban. Surely, he is promoting an agenda. This Diff confirms he is pomoting an agenda. GrabUp - Talk 07:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Afv12e
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Per a consensus of uninvolved administrators BlackOrchidd, is indefinitely topic banned from India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning BlackOrchidd
His talk page is full of recent warnings for his misconduct. Capitals00 ( talk) 06:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning BlackOrchiddStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BlackOrchiddDear ArbComs
Context
Statement by GrabupI warned him not to add unreliable sources to a BLP, which appeared to be a blog site and not reliable. I also warned him not to add any type of analytics data or earnings from Socialblade. His response was not to acknowledge his mistake; instead, he said to discuss the reliability at RS. He has been warned many times for his edits. On one occasion, he was questioned by Admin BlackKite. In an edit summary, he said, “To maintain a neutral point of view (NPOV), we're adjusting this article.” Where he like of misbehaved with him. He removed well-sourced material because it told the truth about Modi, providing a poor edit summary that said Hindi sources should not be used if English sources are available. I reverted that edit and said that English sources should be cited if available, but Hindi sources can also be used. Later, he had to add that portion back. I think there is a full team behind this account or accounts. Their edits are not about improving Wikipedia at all; rather, they are promoting an agenda of PM Modi. GrabUp - Talk 08:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Black KiteI'll put myself in this section as I've had a lot of interactions with them. As you can see from the history of Talk:Narendra Modi, especially Archive 21, BlackOrchidd believes that Modi's article does not contain as much positive information about him as it should do, and has repeatedly attempted to insert material that is WP:SYNTH, WP:OR or based on unreliable sources. They do not appear to understand why they cannot insert this information even when it is explained to them in detail, which is an issue of WP:CIR. I am also suspicious (as was mentioned above by Grabup) that this is an account operated by a group to "improve" Modi's article during an election. It would certainly be logical to apply a topic ban here, even if it is a time-limited one until after election - though I suspect a that time they would no longer be interested in it. Black Kite (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by VanamondeIn addition to the above concerns, I would note the issues with NPOV here, where they user sources discussing what officials said and present those statements as fact in Wikipedia's voice with no attribution. This is an easy error for a new user to make, but the need for attribution has been explained to them multiple times at Talk:Narendra Modi. And speaking of frivolous warnings, there was this bizarre message to me a little while ago. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 15:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning BlackOrchidd
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Indeffed by Bbb23 as a normal admin action. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Melvintickle16
None I'm aware of.
01:15, 29 May 2024 I posted a message to their talkpage. Air on White ( talk) 01:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC) Discussion concerning Melvintickle16Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Melvintickle16Statement by The KipIt appears Bbb23 has already indef'd the user in question for disruptive editing, so I think this case can be archived. The Kip ( contribs) 02:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Melvintickle16
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Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
I'm aware. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 13:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
I only made a change to a talk page, which is usually the way I can make my opinions known on a locked or protected page. The notice that it was only for extended confirmed users was on the top of the section, and not on the top of the page, so I missed it. I believe a week block is fairly severe under this circumstance. I have read through CTOP and ARBECR, and will abide by these rules to avoid this in the future.
I told them You could also read the information that was provided about the WP:CTOP designation on the Arab/Israel conflict and WP:ARBECR and demonstrate that you understand and will abide by the sanctions in the topic area in an unblock request
and yet we're still here.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 13:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
אקעגן said that they have read through CTOP and ARBECR, and will abide by these rules
. I think that's good enough for an unblock. If they abide by these rules, and not
WP:GAME ARBECR, we should be fine? Don't make 100+ trivial edits to reach 500 edits.
starship
.paint (
RUN) 14:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Complainant per WP:ARBECR has no standing to even make this complaint and it should be dismissed with prejudice. See, for example see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive356#Selfstudier "As a non-EC editor, you essentially have no standing to make edits related to the topic. You can make an edit request, but any other editor can remove it, even without providing reason. Further, making a complaint against another editor as a non-EC editor in the WP:ARBPIA area is fully not allowed." Selfstudier ( talk) 14:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
I have a question for אקעגן. You were notified of the ARBPIA restrictions on 2024-03-20, and by convention, the assumption is that you read it because you removed it. You then made 9 edits to Portal:Current events/2024 to include content unambiguously within scope of the restrictions over a period of a month or so. Why did you think that was okay and what could have prevented it? Sean.hoyland ( talk) 15:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Selfstudier's reasoning is interesting. Not sure I buy the "this is not a complaint" idea. It is a complaint against something, an admin action, the severity of the action, and it's a block appeal. It can be both. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 15:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
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Editor had edited Nick McKenzie to insert material which RfC determined should not be in the article. Upon being advised by myself of consensus (as determined by RfC close) and what they could do if disagree with the close, editor has sought to misinterpret WP policy and engaged in casting WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:ABF. Editor appears to be a WP:SPA who is editing to WP:RGW. TarnishedPath talk 14:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Sentaso, I have moved your comment to your section. Please write any comments you have in your section of the notice. TarnishedPath talk 09:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
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2. @ TarnishedPath: JML1148 in their own words stated "numerical majority against removing the content" and then claimed there was consensus to remove the content.
- Yes, yourself and others related to this appear to be Australian as per your Wikipedia profiles. Mckenzie is Australian, and there's seems to be a commonality of those in favor of removing content related him are also Australian. Certainly potential for Conflict_of_interest
3. Evidence was in point 2 above re JML1148 comment.
4. I didn't reinsert anything, I don't know why you're making things up that WP history shows to be false. I added to the discussion highlighting it had been prematurely closed. I've also asked who/when the discussion was deemed over and with what authority, which you didn't answer. If yourself and associates had followed WP best practice there would clear sections on the page detailing why the page would be archived. The page has been blasted with text claiming the discussion is closed, but there appears to be no grounds for closure. I've asked you several times if you could source why this page was archived, which you've ignored, likely because you cannot.
5. As per comments on their Talk page (which he keeps removing) it appears TarnishedPath does not understand some aspects of WP:BLP.
A quote of yours from the Mckenzie archive "if McKenzie is not named, then what is the material doing on a WP:BLP about McKenzie? TarnishedPathtalk 00:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)"
BLPs do not always need to explicitly mention the subject's name as long as the information can be clearly and unambiguously attributed to the subject
6. Duplicate content, see my point 2 above.
7. You don't understand BLP, one should be grateful I highlighted your misunderstanding on your talk page
8. Duplicate content
Sentaso (
talk) 09:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Regarding comments below, these references to talk pages are a red herring. The real issue is why the Mckenzie discussion page was archived, the sham RFC and why BLP is not being followed correctly for the Mckenzie page. Tarnished Path falsely suggested that BLP need to name the person which is incorrect. I did him a favor by raising this issue on his talk page and he gets aggressive and removes the content. Why not focus on the main issues instead of the number of edits a user has? Unhelpful Sentaso ( talk) 13:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
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Notified a partisan forum, violating WP:CANVASS. They were aware of this issue, and the RfC that this is a repeat of raised the same issue, but they rejected it and decided to issue the notification anyway.
That this is canvassing can be seen in the evidence below, which analyses three recent RfC's held at the Village Pump and proves that the WikiProject is non-representative on this topic, with a collective opinion that deviates by a significant margin from that of the broader community. These WP:ARBCOM principles are also relevant (emphasis mine):
The determination of proper consensus is vulnerable to unrepresentative participation from the community. Because of the generally limited number of editors likely to participate in any given discussion, an influx of biased or partisan editors is likely to generate an improper illusion of a consensus where none (or a different one) would exist in a wider population.
While it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion may be considered disruptive. In particular, messages to fora mostly populated by a biased or partisan audience — especially when not public — are considered canvassing and disrupt the consensus building process by making participation lopsided.
Note that this only applies to transgender topics. As far as I know the Wikiproject is not partisan on other topics within its area of interest and thus there are no issues with notifying them on those topics.
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Other issues related to this RfC including misrepresenting sources; they have
claimed that the Telegraph promoted the
litter boxes in schools hoax about a British school
- but none of the articles they provide in support of this claim promotes it, and one of them actually
states such claims are a hoax.
There was a consensus in that discussion that notifying Wikiprojects is almost never canvassing; given the number of editors who qualified their comments there wasn’t a consensus that it never is.
Further, this is a contentious topic; editors should stay well clear of violating policy, and notifying a fora that is known to be partisan isn’t doing that, regardless of what you believe consensus at an informal and non-specific discussion says. 12:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Do not send inappropriate notices, as defined in the section directly belowBilledMammal ( talk) 12:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
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I anticipated that this user would make a tendentious report like this based on comments made on previous discussions, which is why I asked the village pump about this situation before I did it.
In short, there is a strong and recent community consensus that notifying all relevant Wikiprojects is not WP:CANVASSING. And I would like to point out to any admins evaluating here that BilledMammal must know this because they participated in the thread. Loki ( talk) 11:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm really not sure about this. Is it a surprise that WP:LGBT would be partisan on LGBT issues? No. But is the topic of the coverage of trans issues by the Telegraph related to WP:LGBT? Definitely yes? starship .paint ( RUN) 09:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Echoing starship.paint. In AI area, we routinely post to 3 projects, one each on either side and the other theoretically neutral. Here there is no other "side" so presumably editors with an interest in the subject matter camp out at the given project and then we are led to believe there is evidence that this forum is "partisan". Not convinced that this is a sufficient reason to invoke canvassing, though, it's not as if it isn't being done in plain sight and projects are seemingly a natural place to advertise a discussion. Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
This is a particularly frivolous report that has been brought.
Per
WP:APPNOTE:
An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:
The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion.
This should be closed with no action. TarnishedPath talk 12:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
one or more WikiProjects. If you contend that the posting was inappropriate per WP:INAPPNOTE then you need to bring specific evidence beyond them posting to only one WikiProjects which is clearly allowed per WP:APPNOTE. The implicit contention of your whole argument is that WikiProject LGBT studies would only have editors of one side and none other. I find your argument extremely lacking. TarnishedPath talk 13:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Suggest trout for BilledMammal. Wrt "Other issues related to this RfC including misrepresenting sources; they have claimed that the Telegraph promoted the litter boxes in schools hoax about a British school - but none of the articles they provide in support of this claim makes it, and one of them actually states such claims are a hoax."
. But reading the opening paragraph makes it clear to any careful reader that Loki is complaining the Telegraph reported that the school let a child identify as a cat, not that they provided litter trays. Loki goes onto say this is an example of "this general style of dubious claim in right wing media" which is discussed at our article on the litter tray hoax. The specifics of this one UK example doesn't include litter trays, but it contains all the other elements including continued coverage of the story after debunking. I admit that in my comments later in the RFC, I referred to it as "the cat litter story", which was my own carelessness. So what Loki claimed is directly supported by the sources (heading: "School that allowed child to identify as cat faces government investigation", "School engulfed in ‘cat gender’ row turns to parents for views on self-identity", "Schools let children identify as horses, dinosaurs... and a moon", etc) One can debate how closely this tracks the cat litter hoax or not, but I don't think Loki misrepresented the source. Multiple other sources have criticised the Telegraph story as an example of something
too good to check and
patently false
so on. So this isn't something Loki just invented themselves. --
Colin°
Talk 13:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Suggest trout for BilledMammal per Colin and TarnishedPath; notifying relevant wikiprojects (Loki notified the journalism, LGBT and UK projects and the NEWS page) is well- and long-established as fine, and (as pointed out above) was just recently affirmed. That BilledMammal presented his argument so recently in the VPP and consensus was clearly that notifying relevant projects is appropriate makes this filing look...tendentious; I don't know if it's forum-shopping per se, but it comes across as WP:IDHT-y. -sche ( talk) 17:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
BM should recieve a warning, not just a trout, for wasting the community's time for a month over this issue and this ridiculous filing based on WP:IDHT. Some context:
BM is attempting to sanction an editor for upholding a consensus that BM is not only aware has existed for a decade, but has been re-affirmed 3 times in the last month. WP:TE and WP:IDHT are obvious. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 20:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I haven’t read the DRV but I haven't seen the consensus upheld even once in the past month- WP:IDHT even at AE, with threads and diffs linked (which also link to discussions from a decade ago).
and as a general note, why would you want to notify a partisan forum?- for the love of god will an uninvolved admin warn them about this continued WP:BATTLEGROUND claim and tell them to WP:DROPTHESTICK on it?
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User has a pattern of edit warring, incivility and NotForum violations, including but not limited to:
Issue is generally apparent on topics regarding I/P, with at least one occurrence in topics regarding Judaism. This is my first AE filing, so apologies for any errors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:JDiala&diff=prev&oldid=1227053862
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More interesting than what the points raised are is what they are not. There is little in the way of discussion on the substance of my edits. Instead, the discussion focuses primarily on subjective feel-based things. Are quotes by controversial figures acceptable on userpages? When is using the word "Zionist" appropriate and when is it inappropriate? Is it "uncivil" to say someone is "out of line" when you perceive their conduct breaches policy?
This is a contentious subject area. Giving one side veto power on "offensiveness" like this is not right.
After posting a message on the admin noticeboard regarding this issue, I saw that there is already a discussion here. So reposting it here (shortened): The Israeli–Palestinian conflict, what is known here as ARBPIA, is a very sensitive issue. My personal opinion, as someone that the conflict also concerns his personal life (I am Palestinian :)) One should deal with the issue carefully. I would like to raise the issue of one editor - @ JDiala's behavior that, as I see it, not only harm's Wikipedia's objectivity, but also harms the chance of a peaceful life in our area. Here are some examples:
I saw that editors have been asking them to moderate their language many times before. [ link - 2014], [ link - 2015], [ link - January 2024], [ link - February 2024].
The editor even received a week-long ban in December for violating 1RR. [ link]
As a Palestinian, whose life is affected daily by the conflict, with my criticisms of Israel, I find this behavior problematic for Wikipedia. We have to stay objective. I think JDiala should be asked not to deal at all with a topic that clearly arouses their anger. Their edits hurt the project, and ultimately the Palestinians as well.
Please don't add fuel to the fire. Rajoub570 ( talk) 15:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I think both FortunateSons and JDiala are assets for ARBPIA. Very different kinds of assets with very different tones. This conversation shows how hard it is to build bridges and find common ground in ARBPIA. It would be good if JDiala could find a way to live with and adapt to what they regard as tone policing in the topic area. It's unfortunate that, in my view anyway, ARBCOM constraints accidentally create a selection pressure that give a fitness advantage to quiet, nearly invisible, highly motivated sockpuppets over noisy editors like JDiala.
Regarding "X do not go out to murder Y because they are Y", quotes from award winning Israeli journalists like Amira Hass are normally acceptable on Wikipedia. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 03:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
While certainly not raising to the level of an immediate block, the continuous low-lewel disruption by JDiala, evidenced above, has been annoying enough to many editors, including to me, that a temporary TBAN feels like an appropriate response. — kashmīrī TALK 17:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Very BATTLEGROUND-y in a way that is disruptive. I'd support a TBAN. On the user page quote: though I find the quote disgusting, and my interpretation of its presence on the user page is, to say the least, not positive, I don't believe in trying to interpret editors' views when it comes to making decisions about how to treat them, nor in sanctioning editors for their apparent views—I think sanctions should only be practical, and I think everyone has the right to whatever expressions and whatever impressions they desire (out of article-space). But I understand I'm in a serious minority there (right?). Anyways, that's all irrelevant. This user is disruptive and clearly doesn't edit with the care and spirit of collaboration that this topic area demands. Zanahary ( talk) 23:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
For the record, I'm at least slightly involved now as I have expressed dislike of JDiala's tone during the current RFC. As Kashmiri notes, it's not vandalism or one big blowup, but tiny bits of pecking away. The RFC close was absolutely atrocious; rather than see an unusually sparsely attended RFC on what is normally a well-attended topic, JDiala took it upon themself to close their own RFC in favor of their own proposal in an extremely contentious area. Between the quotes that ended up at ANI and the constant pushing of the singular subject as far as civility and stretching WP:NPOV like taffy, JDiala's a net negative in this area. Justifying their extreme one-sided behavior towards Israel by saying that there are "other states like China and Russia, while awful, are significantly richer and more interesting societies" and then comparing the idea of having a proper RFC to Israel's response when settlers' war crimes are alleged, is just more gasoline on the fire. Real WP:BATTLEGROUND stuff here. CoffeeCrumbs ( talk) 00:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
I do not think in recent months 1RR has been an issue for me
isn't accurate. Just glancing through their contributions I see they violated it when trying to implement their close:
BilledMammal ( talk) 01:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
from human rights organizations and United Nations officialsfrom the end of the sentence to the middle; you moved it back to its former position at the end. That is a revert. As reverts go, not overly concerning, but it is a revert - and your second revert, edit warring to try to enforce an out-of-process close, is very concerning.
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Initiated by Cunard at 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions
This was previously discussed in an amendment request closed on 20 April 2024 and on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests.
Background
Before the 2 August 2022 deletion topic ban, TenPoundHammer nominated numerous articles for proposed deletion and articles for deletion. He also redirected numerous articles in 2022. This link shows the last 500 redirects he did before the 2 August 2022 topic ban. If you search for the text "Tags: New redirect Reverted" on the page, there are 189 results. At least 189 of the redirects he did between April 2022 and July 2022 were reverted.
TenPoundHammer resumed the actions that led me to create Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1101#TenPoundHammer: prods and AfDs, which was closed as "This matter has been escalated to the arbitration committee, which has opened a full case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing on this and other related matters" and is cited as "June 2022 ANI" in this finding of fact.
Evidence
I started a talk page discussion with TenPoundHammer on 2 March 2024 about TenPoundHammer's blanking and redirecting of Monkey-ed Movies ( link), Skating's Next Star ( link), Monkey Life ( link), 2 Minute Drill (game show) ( link), and Monsters We Met ( link) for lacking sources. I was able to find sources for these articles so reverted the redirects and added the sources. I asked TenPoundHammer to stop blanking and redirecting articles as it was leading to notable topics no longer having articles.
TenPoundHammer continued to redirect articles on notable topics. Between 11 March 2024 and 16 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 18 articles. Of those 18 articles, 14 were about television series (a topic I focus on): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. After spending many hours searching for sources, I reverted all 14 redirects and added sources to all 14 articles. For several of the topics (such as Queer Eye for the Straight Girl and Dice: Undisputed), sources could be easily found with a Google search.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected three book articles (another topic I focus on): 1, 2, and 3. I reverted the three redirects and added book reviews.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 33 articles. Almost all of those redirects are in the music topic area which I do not focus on. I am concerned about the large number of redirects of topics that could be notable.
On 12 April 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected the television show Las Vegas Garden of Love with the edit summary "unsourced since 2010, time to lose it". I found sources for the article and reverted the redirect. I found two of the sources ( The New York Times and Variety) on the first page of a Google search for "Las Vegas Garden of Love ABC". TenPoundHammer previously prodded this same article in May 2022, and another editor contested that prodding ("contest PROD, nom nominated 200 articles in a single day so it's impossible a BEFORE was done for each").
Analysis
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle. Reviewing this volume of redirects consumes substantial editor time. The redirects are leading to numerous notable topics no longer having articles. The redirects prevent the topics from undergoing community review at AfD, which TenPoundHammer is topic banned from.
Blank-and-redirects get significantly less attention than prods and AfDs. Television-related prods and AfDs are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Television and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Article alerts. But blank-and-redirects are not listed anywhere.
It is unclear to me whether the existing topic ban includes proposing articles for deletion. I recommend that the topic ban be expanded to prohibit both proposing articles for deletion and blanking and redirecting pages since there is previous disruptive editing in both areas where he has prodded or redirected a large number of articles about notable topics. This remedy does something similar for a different editor in the same arbitration case.
Here are quotes from three arbitrators about the topic ban in the 2022 proposed decision regarding the redirects and and proposed deletion:
"... Missing PROD was not intentional on my part but that also can be added." ( link)
Cunard ( talk) 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles, so I don't know why that was brought up. (Similarly, I don't know what the ruling is on deprodding but it's historically not been an issue for me, and I personally don't think it would be fair to deny me a chance to say "hey, wait, I can fix this".) Speed has been an issue, as has blunt edit summaries when I redirect something. Lately when I feel there is little to no content to merge, I try to spell out my WP:BEFORE steps in the edit summary when I redirect. I also generally don't unlink the page, to save the hassle if someone like Cunard comes along to revert my redirect and dump in some sources. One reason I don't try to initiate merger discussion is because no matter how hard I try, no one ever seems to respond. Witness Talk:Regis_Philbin#Proposed_merge_of_Joy_Philbin_into_Regis_Philbin, which opened two months ago and has had several reminders, but not a single person has lifted a finger. How long is that discussion going to gather dust? "There is no deadline" doesn't mean "do nothing and hope the problem somehow fixes itself". If I am to be topic-banned from WP:BLARing, then how can I get some action going in merger discussions? Since again, every fucking time I try, nobody acts like I'm even there -- but then two seconds after I give in and finally merge/redirect the damn thing, someone swoops in to revert me. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 23:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
I am Involved here. TPH and I came up together on this project and occasionally ran into one another on country talk pages although it has been some time since we substantively interacted. I also have the utmost respect for Cunard's research at AfD in that they not only say "sources exist" but find and annotate them for participants to assess. This is especially helpful personally in east Asian language sourcing. That said, Cunard's case here is strong. TPH sees it as their duty to clean up the project, but I don't think their strong feelings are backed by our policies, nor is there a pressing need to remove this content. The project will not collapse and these are mostly not BLPs. If they are, someone else can handle it. I believe TPH's topic ban should be expanded to include BLAR which is a form of deletion. I have no strong feelings on PROD personally. Star Mississippi 01:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Suggest:
If editors cannot agree, the content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used, such as restoring the article and nominating the article for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion.Since TPH is topic banned from AfD, nominating contested BLARs for deletion is off the table. Jclemens ( talk) 20:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation.
While a WP:BEFORE search may be a good idea, it isn’t one that there is a consensus to require - and it is one that there shouldn’t be a consensus to require until we place similar requirements, retroactively applying, on the creation of articles.
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle.
If we’re going to apply FAIT to the deletion of articles we need to first - and retroactively - apply it to their creation, otherwise we will have a situation where massive numbers of articles have been created in violation of FAIT but are almost impossible to address.
Further, I’m not convinced this is a FAIT issue; addressing previous FAIT issues is not itself a FAIT violation, even if done at a similar scale and rate.
The arbitrators may like to consider the itemized wording of another user's topic ban (linked in Cunard's request) or TenPoundHammer topic banned (2) (did not pass). They both call out article redirection explicitly.
Regarding WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive974#TenPoundHammer (2018 community topic ban, linked by Maxim), its closing statement does not mention redirects, and the closer clarified them as excluded within a few weeks.
I found four related diffs – none involving redirects – in Special:PageHistory/Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Wikipedia community. They are consistent with WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing/Evidence#TenPoundHammer has been subject to ANI discussion on multiple occasions.
Redirecting a page is not deletion.
If other editors disagree with this blanking, its contents can be recovered from page history, as the article has not been deleted.
Flatscan ( talk) 04:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
is not required but considered good practice when the main concern is lack of notability or sources.but for this editor, with this past, the lack of BEFORE when some high quality sourcing was available strikes me as an issue. Barkeep49 ( talk) 04:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
TenPoundHammer ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is indefinitely topic banned from removing all content in an article and replacing it with a redirect (commonly known as a blank-and-redirect, or BLAR). This topic ban will be suspended for a period of 12 months. This topic ban may be unsuspended and imposed onto TenPoundHammer if disruption by BLARing restarts, as determined by any of: (1) a consensus of administrators on WP:AE, (2) at least two arbitrators indicating "support" to unsuspend at WP:ARCA, with no opposition from other arbitrators indicated up to 48 hours after the second support, or (3) a majority of active arbitrators at WP:ARCA if there is opposition as indicated in condition 2. After 12 months, if it has not been imposed, the topic ban will be automatically lifted.
For this motion there are 9 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 5 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Other arbitrators feel free to modify the wording or to propose another motion below. Z1720 ( talk) 03:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
The
Manual of Style and
Article title policy are jointly authorized contentious topics. Speaking for myself, I have {{
Contentious topics/aware|mos}}
on my talk page, because I was (and am) aware that the MOS is a CTOP. I was unaware until earlier today that article titles are also a CTOP bundled with the MOS CTOP, even though I was technically aware of the article title CTOP.
It seems that others are also unaware (in the conventional sense) that article titles are CTOPICs; at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions it was about three days and 26KB of discussion before Guerrillero pointed out that article titles are already designated as a CTOP.
The MOS and article titles are related, but distinct, issues. I think they should be split into seperate CTOPs to reflect the fact that they are distinct issues. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
giv[ing] administrators an awful lot of discretion, I think that is the point of CTOPs: they give a lot of discretion to admins in areas that have historically been problematic. If admins abuse that discretion, that is a separate problem. We already have at least one CTOP ( infoboxes) which covers particular discussions about an article rather than the article itself. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Splitting the remedy is probably more trouble than it's worth. But while we're here: there hasn't been a logged sanction under this case since 2020, and that's probably because its scope is so narrow that most title- or MOS-related disruption isn't covered. Honestly there's a strong argument for just repealing it altogether, although the timing may not be right for that. An alternative would be to expand it to include RMs and the like (certainly there have been plenty of issues there), but that would give administrators an awful lot of discretion. The status quo of having the CTOP cover just the policy/guideline pages (which are often less contentious than the RMs) doesn't really make sense to me, though, and the lack of use suggests it's not doing much of value. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 03:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I would oppose splitting them, because the application of the MOS guidelines to the article titles policy was a large part of the controversy that caused me to file the case in the first place. See also Comet Hale–Bopp. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
There is a consensus among active arbitrators that the close of the conduct discussion was correct given that the initator did not have extended confirmed and the discussion fell with-in an extended confirmed restriction topic area. Barkeep49 ( talk) 15:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by Ivanvector at 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request Statement by IvanvectorThis request concerns the extended confirmed restriction and its applicability to complaints about user conduct within an affected topic. A few days ago, editor BugGhost initiated a complaint at ANI regarding editor PicturePerfect666's conduct in discussions at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024 ( ANI permalink). The complaint was entirely focused on PicturePerfect666's allegedly tendentious conduct with regard to information critical of Israel's participation in the song contest, reflective of real-world criticism and activism regarding Israel's ongoing invasion of Palestine. BugGhost specifically asked that PicturePerfect666 be topic banned. Since BugGhost is not extendedconfirmed, and the complaint entirely concerns conduct within that topic, I advised that the complaint could not proceed, but made no comment on its merit. My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them. On this I would like clarification, because I agree with some implicit criticism on my talk page that it is unreasonable. I have listed Valereee as a party because she added the contentious topics notice to the talk page on 28 December 2023 ( diff), but she is not involved at all in the incidents described. PicturePerfect666 and BugGhost should be self-explanatory, and Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor who asked about "adopting" (my words) BugGhost's complaint. -- Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ValereeeStatement by PicturePerfect666Statement by BugghostAs the newbie here that this request is concerning, I'm not completely certain what kind of comment is expected of me here, so I apologise if anything I say is irrelevant or out of scope. Before writing the AN/I, I looked at the ARBECR guidelines and didn't see any wording that said that my filing was against the spirit of it. My interpretation was that AN/I wasn't a page related to any specific contentious topic, and the filing I was making was about a specific user's conduct, not about the contentious topic itself, and so it wasn't against the spirit of the restriction. I still stand by that - I made sure that my filing did not in any way weigh in on arguments of the related contentious topic at hand, just the behaviour of the user as shown by their edits. My filing was neutral on the contentious topic itself, without editorialising and without any discussion of assumed motive behind the behaviour - only their edits were brought forward. A consequence from this closure is that raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a contentious issue is harder than raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a non-contentious issue. If PicturePerfect666's disruptive behaviour on the Eurovision page was instead about a different topic (say, the Dutch entrant's surprise disqualification), then an AN/I filing from myself would have gone ahead, because that part of the page is not under the ARBECR. But seeing as they were disruptive about a contentious issue, they have been able to deflect my concerns - which seems counter to the ARBECR's aims of reducing disruption on contentious topics. I think that the ARBECR is a good idea but can be hard to interpret, and has the ability to dismiss reasonable well intentioned actions. In my view, it can contradict the "assume good faith" mantra, as assumption that I filed the AN/I accurately and in good faith was "trumped" by the fact my edit count being too low. As I said on IvanVector's talk page, I spent a long amount of time compiling a long list of the user's disruptive behaviour for the filing, including very specific diffs to outline each example, and it being dismissed based wholly on my edit count was very demoralising. As backed up by Yoyo360 suggestion to "adopt" it, the AN/I has some merits worth considering. BugGhost 🎤 16:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Yoyo360I don't have much to add actually. I don't edit much on wiki:en, I'm mostly watching the talk pages of the Eurovision wikiproject to inspire me on the French-language counterpart (which is quasi inactive). I only come in when discussions have relevance for topics I also could add on wiki:fr and I noticed PP666 behaviour in the past weeks. I concur with everything BugGhost noted in their AN/I, they argued the case way better than I ever could. Noticing the topic had been closed due to the extended confirmed restrictions, I put myself forward to push the AN/I to be treated (as I now have the EC status on wiki:en) asking if it could be reopened in my name. I even have a few things to add to it but that's rather minor compared to the rest and off-topic here I think. Yoyo360 ( talk) 15:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Selfstudier
Statement by Sean.hoylandI think the closing was entirely appropriate and I agree with Selfstudier's statement. However, I think it is fair to say that the situation with respect to Yoyo360 at the time of the complaint posted by PicturePerfect666 at ANI is more complicated than "Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor". They were granted the privilege early (from an enwiki perspective) because, as the log says, they are a "10-year-old user with over 25,000 edits across all projects". This seems reasonable, pragmatic and it resolved the issue (although I'm sure imaginative people could cite it as yet another example of anti-Israel bias or rewarding complainers etc.), but for me, it's another reminder that none of us really know (based on evidence) the best way to implement/enforce EC restrictions in ARBPIA, how strictly they should be implemented, and that there is a lot of (costly) subjectivity and fuzziness involved at the moment. This is by no means a criticism or an endorsement of anything that happened in that thread by the way. I have no idea how to figure out how EC rules should work in practice to produce the best result. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 16:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) On gaming, as far as I can tell (in ARBPIA anyway), the notion of gaming to acquire the EC privilege only becomes useful after a person has become extendedconfirmed and you can see what they did with it. Statements about potential gaming before someone has reached 500 edits are usually not verifiable (e.g. unreliable inferences about intent) and not based on agreed methods to reliably distinguish between gaming edits and normal edits (probably because we can't really do that without the benefit of post-EC hindsight). It's true that gaming happens in ARBPIA and that the gaming vs non-gaming signals can sometimes be distinguished, e.g. here, where all of the plots that look like gaming, anonymized ARBPIA editors 2,5,6 and 7, are for editors blocked as sockpuppets. But regardless, I don't think there is much utility in raising gaming questions until after someone becomes extendedconfirmed and there is post-EC activity evidence to look at. To do so asks questions that can't be answered without a lot of handwaving fuzziness about revision size, necessity, constructiveness, gnoming-ness, character witness-like statements etc. AGF until there is a reason not to seems like the best approach to gnoming-like pre-EC edits. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 07:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I'll add some quick responses to Ivanvector's kindness and frustration from a different perspective (as someone only active in ARBPIA nowadays, and not to make content edits).
Statement by BishonenAfter Bugghost was informed on May 19 about the EC restriction on Eurovision Song Contest 2024 and told they had "nowhere near 500 edits", they have started what looks like an attempt to game the 500 edits restriction by doing a lot of simple spelling corrections and are by this means now rapidly approaching the 500. In many cases the changes aren't even corrections — they changed the form pre-determined to predetermined in hundreds of articles yesterday, even though both forms are acceptable, and similarly changed lots of instances of pre-suppose to presuppose, where also both forms are acceptable. They made no spelling-"correction" edits before they were made aware of the EC rule for the Arab–Israeli conflict. I like to AGF, but this is ridiculous. See WP:GAME. Bishonen | tålk 10:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC). Statement by Novem LinguaeBugghost has been rewriting the article Windows Presentation Foundation over the last week or so. In my mind he is a talented newer editor that is doing good content creation and article cleanup work. In light of the gaming concerns above, I'd like to make sure the positive aspects of this editor are also considered. Thank you. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 11:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Extended confirmed restriction: Clerk notes
Extended confirmed restriction: Arbitrator views and discussion
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M.Bitton ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
There has been a long running dispute at Israel-Hamas war, including multiple reverts and discussions ( one, two, etc), over the lede's third paragraph; to resolve this I opened an RfC per dispute resolution. A few hours later, after three !votes including mine, Makeandtoss closed it, striking comments in violation of TPO. They had previously been involved in this dispute, in the article ( example) and in discussions.
I reverted, but shortly after M.Bitton reclosed it. They weren't involved in the immediate dispute but are generally, including expressing strong opinions on related content. The RfC was necessary and lacked sufficient issues to justify a premature close making closing it generally disruptive, but more so here because of their involvement, locking in a status quo that they both appear to favor.
Previously discussed at
ScottishFinnishRadish's talk page and
ARCA, where
Barkeep49 said they take a dim view of editors preventing this RfC
and recommended AE.
M.Bitton declined to self-revert.
Makeandtoss:
disingenuous edit summaries, edit warring, and treating Wikipedia as a battleground
M.Bitton:
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton
Extended content
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an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution) was not met
7,797 children and 4,959 womento
15,000 children and 10,000 women. Sourced.
The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza said.
Amnesty International and others have described that use of the term as weaponization of antisemitism. Sourced.
In an interrogation of Hamas militants, one militant said they were given permission to perform necrophilia. Source said
He also said they were given permission to rape the corpse of a girl.Also reintroduced a MOS:ALLEGED violation without explanation.
where thousands ... were massacred by the Israeli military, saying
restoring sourced content that was recently removed for no good reason; also clarifying perpetrator. Source contradicts this;
the Christian Phalangists who committed the massacre were Israel’s allies in the war.
The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza; it is disingenuous to quote only
Hamas-run Gazaand say it isn't attributing to the health ministry.
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton:
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
As evidenced by BilledMammal's own links above, there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four points, nor was there any attempt at conflict resolution that are outlined in WP:RFCBEFORE, which considers RFC a last option due to its time-consuming nature.
What I did was simply strike through the RFC, an action that was easily reverted, and I stopped and did not take it further. It would be disingenuous to claim that I had closed it, an irreversible action. Nevertheless, I will ensure to ask an uninvolved administrator to do this in upcoming incidents, which is indeed a better course of action.
That aside, this seems like an attempt to deflect from BilledMammal's own editing behavior, as they created the RFC in non-neutral phrasing without signing it, and then went ahead to vote with a signature, which creates a misleading first impression. Not to mention BilledMammal's edit warring by reverting other editors four times within the course of two hours relating to this incident: [4], [5], [6], [7].
I sincerely hope to see the day when editors are more interested in constructively contributing to Wikipedia than taking editors they disagree with to AE every time something happens. Makeandtoss ( talk) 10:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ScottishFinnishRadish: and @ Seraphimblade: First, thanks for the concerns. To add some context in response: I was blocked from that article on 14 October 2023, back when things were heated, and back when I did not completely understand what constitutes 1RR; I also wasn't able to appeal that 48 hour ban because it had passed while I was appealing. As for the second "sanction" on that article, I was warned for "slow motion edit warring" on that article backing in January 2024; because I had edited the same sentence multiple times in the lede over a few months according to developments on the talk page. Since then I have taken immense care to abide strictly by the guidelines at the article and across the topic.
My constructive and collaborative editing at the Israel-Hamas war article almost non-stop over the past seven months is evidenced by the fact that I am the third top editor by # of edits on the article having added 50k bytes and the 5th top editor on the talk page having added 70k bytes. Editing such a high-level and sensitive article while maintaining calm is not an easy task. Of course, striking through that RFC was a trout, which I have already pledged on SFR's talk page that it would not be repeated. The purpose of AE is to remedy behavior and not to punish editors. I really hope that a more balanced view of my editing is taken and that this minor mistake is not taken out of proportion. Makeandtoss ( talk) 09:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: I really appreciate the chance to present my perspective, and @ ScottishFinnishRadish:'s comment that shows their genuine dedication to handling this request appropriately.
First, note that the Israel-Hamas war article sees dozens of edits every day, and numerous discussions. Over the course of months this accumulates and gets inevitably confusing for everyone, especially as the ideas or edits are sometimes discussed in different phrasings or closely resemble one another.
The fact that I have created or engaged in these discussions shows my good faith and collaborative approach. In summary, this unfortunate incident took place in a sensitive RFC opened controversially and in a sensitive and highly active article. I accordingly made a hasty decision, to which I apologize about and vow that it would not be repeated. A lot of lessons learnt here: to specifically never strike through or remove any RFC; and more generally, to demonstrate greater patience, to put in greater efforts to examine similar situations, and to never act in haste.
As for the separate older incident with Number57 on 1 January, I did not say in the edit summary that no discussion had taken place, but that the RFC went against WP:RFCBEFORE, which states that if a dispute is between two editors they should seek WP:Third opinion first. After I removed the RFC, another third editor agreed with Number57's edit and disagreed with mine, and I stopped and did not take the issue further. Again, I was only made aware of the issues surrounding removing an RFC only after the recent incident. Makeandtoss ( talk) 23:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Responses to extended request
First, thanks to all the admins who are taking a lot of their precious time and effort to diligently examine this extended request as well and the responses.
relying exclusively on 3 Israeli sources for a controversial sentence is a conflict of interest( WP:QS section of WP:BURDEN).
the lack of consensus on talk pageas well as the
WP:ONUS and WP:BRD guidelines.
"Gaza Health Ministry"is not equal to the source's
"Hamas-run Gaza".
there is no need for attribution for Amnesty International, and that editors
should seek consensusfor this addition, for which there is an ongoing RFC now. Here I actually meant
WP:ONUS.
contravening WP:QS of WP:BURDEN, and in the same edit summary I cited
a source saying that these torture confessions were questionable. This removal came immediately after being reinstated following an initial removal by another editor, showing clear lack of consensus.
explicitly mentioned in WP:BURDEN as best practice.
10:00 and 11:00 after having started the dayand/or
13:00 and 14:00 after having finished my lunch break, so this is a coincidence on different days with no deliberate editing.
False. This move
is not a revert since the article's name had been stable for 6 weeks.
False. I had written most of the Walid Daqqa article and as evident by the still existing (6) edit summaries [17],
these reverts were made against non-confirmed users.
False. This is
not a revert as the content removed had been stable since at least 6 weeks[18].
misleadinglycited WP:BURDEN"
Falselyclaiming WP:BURDEN" => "Claiming WP:BURDEN"
I already explained the close when asked by ScottishFinnishRadish, so I won't repeat it here. I also wasn't involved in any of the discussions that led to RfC. Frankly, this report raises more questions than answers: if BilledMammal was really interested in SFR's advice, then why did they ignore it and why did they ignore the question that SFR asked them (about how to best formulate the RFC)? Someone who's starting a RfC for the benefit of the project would have no issue with what SFR suggested (working with others), but I guess that wasn't what they were after. Approaching me four days later with an ultimatum doesn't strike me as very constructive, especially considering the fact that I chose not to report them for violating 1RR multiples times. Bringing it to AE after raising it with SFR is just plain forum shopping. M.Bitton ( talk) 11:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I dont think it was a good idea to shut down the RFC. But on the process, if a user is blocked from a page for edit-warring, are they allowed to pursue dispute resolution related to that page while blocked? Or is that not similar to an editor violating a topic ban by making a report about the topic? nableezy - 13:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
less relevant at this point |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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In an interrogation of Hamas militants, one militant said they were given permission to perform necrophiliacited to Times of Israel which itself says
My sole contribution to the RFC was to add the comment "+1. Not signed either." to Makeandtoss rejection of it, the RFCbefore being unspecified as well as a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments that had not produced the desired outcome from the openers perspective, awkwardly lumped together in a single RFC. I sympathize with the frustration that led to its untimely closure and frankly think that complainant should devote some effort to figuring out ways to spend less time at this board. Selfstudier ( talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Seems it can't be bothWell, it can, I speak as someone familiar with the article and its history, what I mean is that those prior discussions were nowhere apparent at the RFC or even on the talk page, it being usual to specify an RFCbefore detailing them. I can try to locate the multiplicity of them in the talk page archives if desired, I assume OP knows where they are? Selfstudier ( talk) 14:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion?That's the point, it is valid and that's why editors taking part in an RFC need to know about those discussions, generally I would link them as part of an RFC(before) Not all editors are aware of prior discussions of which there may have been several. Selfstudier ( talk) 15:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Would a better, less inflammatory way to handle this have been pointing out those earlier discussions in the RFC discussion or bringing up that you believe they should be linked on BMs talk page rather than closing the RM or modifying the RFC statement?From where I'm sitting, which is quite frequently on the opposite side of the table from complainant, that thought is one step removed from what I see as the actual source of the problem, namely the opening of that particular RFC in that particular way in the first instance, then persisting with it when three editors came out strongly against the process. I would not personally have closed out the RFC but I don't disagree with it either, I think complainant should have done so themselves and we wouldn't be here, not for this at any rate. Selfstudier ( talk) 18:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
While BM is technically correct that an RfC does not have to be signed, when one of the principle disputants on a topic starts an RfC with their own preferences highlighted it is at least a very bad look if they refuse to have their name on it. And I mean "refuse", since BM twice deleted a signature that was added using {{unsigned}}. If there is a positive explanation for that I didn't manage to think of it. Zero talk 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Just saying... WP:Signatures says "Typing five tildes will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding your signature". So, while it is true that five tildes are permitted in an RfC, it is arguable whether that counts as a signature for the purposes of TPO. Zero talk 01:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
In this instance I am uninvolved in the RfC (and am largely uninvolved in ARBPIA). I wanted to draw attention to BilledMammal's using their own !vote in their own RfC as evidence that it should remain open, which I take to be a rather peculiar argument. Of the other two !votes, one largely resisted the way the RfC was framed, while the other did accept the framing but only answered two of the four RfC questions.
So to me, BM's argument amounts to an assertion that the way it is framed makes sense to them (though others evidently disagree) and that they have voted in it therefore it must stay open. To insist on this, in spite of the lack of RFCBEFORE and quite evident flaws in the RfC's construction, strikes me as an attempted deployment of bureaucratic proceduralism unworthy of BM or of enwiki in general.
To then "seek justice against one's enemies" (Plato, not a wikipedian) in this forum, after having been banned temporarily from the Talk page in question, seems to me like a failure of judgement given the overwhelming lack of support for BM's framing of the RfC in the first place. The only likely outcome of that RfC, given the responses to it on Talk and on SFR's Talk, was a "malformed RfC" outcome, and I don't see how devoting photons and editors' time to hashing out that outcome would have served anything but BURO. Newimpartial ( talk) 14:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
disingenuous. I read "points" in the summary as meaning "proposals" and I don't see how any of the proposals received an appropriate RFCBEFORE. For any that did, it seems to me that it was up to the person filing the RfC to document the BEFORE, in any case, so the interpretation that "these points/proposals did not receive a prior discussion that satisfies RFCBEFORE" strikes me as entirely reasonable even if others read the situation differently. I certainly don't see anything "disingenuous" about the summary, even though of course nobody INVOLVED ought to he closing anyone's RfC but their own. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't have a view on this particular situation, but for context, I thought it would be useful to flag up that I have also experienced Makeandtoss shutting down an RfC after others have commented (see here). Number 5 7 17:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Closing an RfP this way seems rather disruptive (per WP:RFC, An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be
). Usually users unhappy with an RfC would !vote Bad RfC and explain their reasoning. Why couldn't it have been done in this case?
Alaexis
¿question? 21:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
It was a complex RFC from the get-go, and seemingly not prompted by sufficiently rigorous prior discussion so as to actually warrant such a complicated RFC (the only linked discussions are a couple that appear to have simply petered out). RFCs are by nature time consuming for the community, and can also hamstring routine discussion and editing but putting a freeze on any topic covered by the RFC until complete. It is not in the project's interest to have a proliferation of badly scripted, overly complex RFCs floating around, and closing such examples down is quite sensible from a WP:NOTBURO perspective. There aren't many other avenues open for nipping bad RFCs in the bud. If everyone just attends and votes "bad RFC" then that's time-consuming participation. Alternatively, editors could try to petition the admin noticeboard for an admin to strictly enforce WP:RFCBEFORE, but if this is a routine action, it's not one that I've observed, even though WP:RFCBEFORE is in principle quite strict and, one might think, enforceable. This close was a no-nonsense attempt to strictly adhere to WP:RFCBEFORE, and perhaps recourse to the admin board would have been a better option, but the intentions appear reasonable. It feels like the best way to deal with an RFC that fails WP:RFCBEFORE is actually a bit of a grey area, and one that perhaps needs better clearing up. Iskandar323 ( talk) 02:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I agree that RFCs shouldn't be closed so early by involved editors. However, on seeing the closure, I was glad it helped us avoid another heated discussion on that very Talk page that was extremely unlikely to produce anything resembling consensus. BilledMammal was right to write that perceptions of the editor who opened the RfC may influence how editors perceive the RfC
, and so given their rather contentious editing history in Palestine-related topics, they decided not not to sign their name. Yet we were at it again. When going through the questions, I was disappointed (but not surprised) to find out how POV the structure was – it concerned adding inline attribution to the internationally accepted numbers of Palestinian victims of the Israeli invasion (inline attribution is not normally necessary and suggests an opinion, not a fact – our policy requires it
if there is a disagreement between sources
) or contrasting these numbers with Israeli-provided numbers of supposedly killed militants, even though the latter are widely considered unreliable and few media carry them. Judging from the past discussion history on that article and the POV split of the most active editors, this RfC was not going to end up in a consensus.
So, as much as the close was procedurally wrong, I'm of the view that it ultimately befitted that article and the wider readership. A trout for everyone, as Valereee wrote, and move on. — kashmīrī TALK 22:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Lots of verbiage above but it's a simple issue. RfCs are not to be closed by involved editors. Involved editors who do so should get sanctioned, for this is a contentious topic area and there needs to be extra efforts made to enforce the rules, and I don't mean "trout slaps." Coretheapple ( talk) 22:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ScottishFinnishRadish: and @ Seraphimblade: as you consider sanctions, I'd like to add that Makeandtoss is exceptionally productive. They are one of the very few users I see regularly creating new articles or significantly expanding existing ones in the Arab-Israeli conflict area. They have an impressive User:Makeandtoss/DYK record (many of them in the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area), with some DYKs of articles they created still active (eg Killing of David Ben Avraham). They helped promote articles in this topic area to GA status (eg Battle of Karameh, Black September, Hussein of Jordan etc). Just last month, they wrote the entire History of Palestinian journalism article. I've also seen them create useful stubs (eg Mohammad Hyasat of the Jordanian Air Force, who helped defend Israel from Iranian attacks). VR (Please ping on reply) 11:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four pointsor was this
a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments. Seems it can't be both. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
what I mean is that those prior discussions, so there was prior in-depth discussion? Those talk pages are fast moving, and the archives are already huge. If the discussion happened a couple months ago, does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion? ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
If a signature violates the guidelines for signatures, or is an attempt to fake a signature, you may edit the signature to the standard form with correct informationand TPO is clear that editors may
...not modify the signature on others' posts for any other reason.Barkeep49 ( talk) 14:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Should the number of militants that Israel has stated they have killed be included? Should we describe the number of women and children killed as...with a summary of
no discussion has taken place about these points.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
Removing referenced statements & replacing with
original research
Gaza Health Ministry
1.
15:12, 13 May 2024
Rafah offensive
2.
09:55, 9 May 2024
General 1RR violations:
Rafah offensive
1.
09:55, 9 May 2024 - Referenced sentence removed
Palestinian political violence
2.
17:19, 8 May 2024 - User revert
War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war
3.
08.13, 25 April 2024 - Referenced sentence removed
Gaza–Israel conflict
4.
17:56, 24 April 2024 - User revert
Zionism
5.
21:05, 21 April 2024 - User revert
Israel and apartheid
6.
15:38, 21 April 2024 - User revert
Palestinian political violence
7.
14:35, 21 April 2024 - User revert
2024 Israeli strikes on Iran
8.
16:58, 19 April 2024 - User revert
9.
09:25, 19 April 2024 - Reverted to a previous version
10.
08:25, 19 April 2024 - Sentence removed without edit summary
I typically don't mind trivial 1RR violations if they were made in good faith. However, it struck me that the user had made hundreds of copy edits, from 20 to 31 March 2024, spamming categories to articles, in order to pass the 500 edit requirement for extended confirmed protection. Subsequently, they solely began editing controversial ECP articles in an aggressive manner. Additionally, it concerns me that the user was previously blocked for not disclosing their paid editing. Ecrusized ( talk) 18:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
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Hi, everyone My name is Gal, Gal the teacher (in Hebrew with English letters it comes out GALAMORE). I entered Wikipedia because I wanted to write about technology, I wrote the article on Perplexity.ai (which received 568,902 views so far!!), after I wrote about a few more high-tech companies I was temporarily blocked and warned not to engage in business matters probably for fear of receiving money for it. Almost every morning, before I start teaching, I go to Wikipedia to edit and I enjoy it very much. I am Israeli, so the Israel related topics interest me. If it is relevant, politically, in Israel I believe in peace with our neighbors and want an end to wars. When I see something that is biased, I try to balance it and bring sources from both sides. Even if there is an Israeli editor who makes claims that are "in favor of Israel" but are not substantiated, I will correct it - because I truly believe in balanced coverage of topics. I am not obssessive to my edits, I just enjoy adding information and I think it is productive to humanity.
On this occasion, may I ask where and when can I request that the prohibition to write on tech companies be removed? Galamore ( talk) 07:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
In addition, the offensive resulted in the temporary closure of the Kerem Shalom and Rafah crossings, further exacerbating the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
Kerem Shalom was closed due to the Hamas attacks, and now reopened, this is wrong and outdated.
But Israel closed the Kerem Shalom crossing after a Hamas attack on Sunday killed four soldiers in the area, then mounted an incursion on Tuesday that closed the Rafah crossing along the border with Egypt.
The GHM's casualty reports have received significant attention during the course of the Gaza–Israel conflict. GHM's casualty reports are considered credible by two scientific studies published in The Lancet.
The casualty reports issued by the GHM during the Israel–Hamas war have been subject to significant scrutiny. While some advocate for their accuracy, others cast doubt on their reliability.
Warned by another user about 1RR violation on 10:45, 14 April 2024. Did not self-revert.
the latest change seems to come from virtually inexperienced editors, Galamore and GidiD with a heavy Israeli bias
OP doesn't seem to know what 1RR means. Zero talk 09:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
For the sake of completeness, see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Galamore, gaming the system Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
And the discussion Talk:Israel–Hamas war#UN changes reported casualty figures. Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
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Background evidence: 18 May 2024 AtikaAtikawa knows how to post an edit request
Various comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war ( permalink)
Creation of Israel–Palestine conflict userboxes
Polemicizing in MfDs for the aforementioned userboxes:
The editor has eight mainspace edits. All of their mainspace edits have been made between January and September 2020. The editor has 177 total edits, of which 31.1% have been deleted. 69.7% of their live edits have been to userspace. The user is generally inactive as an editor of Wikipedia, but has increased activity probably due to interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict, but instead of resuming normal editorial activity, which would mean making edit requests for a while, the activity has been predominantly polemical. Therefore, seeing all of this user's edits in total, the user is WP:NOTHERE.
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As for the comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war. I acknowledge that I failed at understanding ECR limitations when I made them; A rookie mistake that stems from the fact that I just started having interest in editing Wikipedia, and I'm still familiarising myself with the rules. In fact I was warned and I did obey. Briefly, I acknowledge my mistake here.
As for the userboxes. I hope that you take into consideration my arguments in their MfD entries. Basically, I think that Alalch E. is assuming bad faith since he is accusing me of endorsing violence and deeming atrocities as just with no basis, and I think that I actually clarified that through the documentation that the filer deemed as "apologia for violence including atrocities against civilians" when it is just a statement of a viewpoint, that is against violence from both sides.
As for the polemical comments. They were basically just answers to comments that were polemical themselves rather than referring clearly to policies that I did break. I totally understands that two wrongs don't make a right, but I'm really open to advices that concern how could I have handled this better.
As stated above, I'm well aware that I'm unexperienced, and I hope that my niche interest in the Arab-Israeli conflict will not be somehow held against me, rather I hope for whatever answer I'll get to this to contain referrals to the rules I broke in order to be mindful to them from now on.
I acknowledge that my behaviour was suboptimal, and I acknowledge that it did stem from a potential lack of understanding the rules from my part, and I welcome any decision that comes from your part with the hope that it will serve the noble goal of making me a better editor with a better service to the encyclopedia rather than punishment just for the sake of it.— Yours Truly, ⚑ AtikaAtikawa 15:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Technical picky point, defendant is non EC and not permitted to make statements here (or anywhere, really). An admin could/should deal with this? Selfstudier ( talk) 15:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Seconding Selfstudier here - the defendant is several hundred edits short of XC status anyways, so this should be a fairly textbook warning (or TBAN) for violating the ARBPIA XC restriction rather than a drawn-out AE case. The Kip ( contribs) 16:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
@ Alalch E.: can you remove this inflammatory comment? There are AGF interpretations of AtikaAtikawa's userbox, and these were given by Robert McClenon and Chaotic Enby. AtikaAtikawa themself wrote that the userbox doesn't support political violence, yet you still throw words like "pro-terrorism" around, and that raises the temperature. VR (Please ping on reply) 21:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Per a consensus of uninvolved administrators Afv12e, is indefinitely topic banned from India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Afv12e
This user has, IMHO, had too much rope: despite numerous warnings, they seem unable or unwilling to learn our PAGs. I would suggest a TBAN, but a normal indefinite block would not go amiss. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 20:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Afv12eStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Afv12e
I apologize for the oversight regarding the image source. The image was sourced , and the copyright status is provided. I will ensure that all future images have clear and verifiable sources. The caption content was intended to summarize the image and it was taken from here [21]; (the caption reference , added here as the editor pointed out that i took image but to specify that i took reference for captions) however, I recognize the need for proper sourcing and will add references to support the information provided.
I acknowledge that the sentence was unintentionally copied. I have rewritten the sentence to better paraphrase the source. The source used describes the broader Khilafat Movement, and I have now included additional sources that specifically discuss the Malabar rebellion to support the content.
The primary source was used to provide a firsthand account of the events. However, I understand that secondary sources are preferred. I will replace the primary source with Secondary Source to ensure better adherence to Wikipedia's guidelines.
I have actively participated in discussions, as seen in [22] [23] [24]. I admit that there were misunderstandings, but I have since reviewed Wikipedia's policies on verifiability and reliable sourcing. Moving forward, I will ensure all contributions are well-sourced and properly vetted.
I have taken past warnings seriously and have made significant efforts to improve my editing practices. Recent contributions such as [25] [26] demonstrate my commitment to following Wikipedia's guidelines and making valuable contributions.
I am a relatively new user on Wikipedia, with around 300 edits and 8 months of experience. I am still learning and navigating Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I appreciate the feedback and am committed to improving my contributions to the community.
Sincerely, Afv12e
Statement by 86.23.109.101I agree with Vanamonde93 that a topic ban or block is required here. A couple more examples of disruption from the last few days:
This AN thread [34] from a few days ago may be relevant here. 86.23.109.101 ( talk) 21:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by BlackOrchidd
Statement by Abhishek0831996See Afv12e's edit warring on Malabar rebellion, especially this type of editing and edit summary. He is clearly not serious about what he is editing. This particularly confirms that he is editing to impose his agenda. His behavior on a recent WP:AN report was also very bad. [35] I agree Afv12e should be topic banned or blocked. Abhishek0831996 ( talk) 06:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by GrabupAs far as I can see from his edits, I am convinced that he should get a topic ban. Surely, he is promoting an agenda. This Diff confirms he is pomoting an agenda. GrabUp - Talk 07:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Afv12e
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Per a consensus of uninvolved administrators BlackOrchidd, is indefinitely topic banned from India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning BlackOrchidd
His talk page is full of recent warnings for his misconduct. Capitals00 ( talk) 06:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning BlackOrchiddStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BlackOrchiddDear ArbComs
Context
Statement by GrabupI warned him not to add unreliable sources to a BLP, which appeared to be a blog site and not reliable. I also warned him not to add any type of analytics data or earnings from Socialblade. His response was not to acknowledge his mistake; instead, he said to discuss the reliability at RS. He has been warned many times for his edits. On one occasion, he was questioned by Admin BlackKite. In an edit summary, he said, “To maintain a neutral point of view (NPOV), we're adjusting this article.” Where he like of misbehaved with him. He removed well-sourced material because it told the truth about Modi, providing a poor edit summary that said Hindi sources should not be used if English sources are available. I reverted that edit and said that English sources should be cited if available, but Hindi sources can also be used. Later, he had to add that portion back. I think there is a full team behind this account or accounts. Their edits are not about improving Wikipedia at all; rather, they are promoting an agenda of PM Modi. GrabUp - Talk 08:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Black KiteI'll put myself in this section as I've had a lot of interactions with them. As you can see from the history of Talk:Narendra Modi, especially Archive 21, BlackOrchidd believes that Modi's article does not contain as much positive information about him as it should do, and has repeatedly attempted to insert material that is WP:SYNTH, WP:OR or based on unreliable sources. They do not appear to understand why they cannot insert this information even when it is explained to them in detail, which is an issue of WP:CIR. I am also suspicious (as was mentioned above by Grabup) that this is an account operated by a group to "improve" Modi's article during an election. It would certainly be logical to apply a topic ban here, even if it is a time-limited one until after election - though I suspect a that time they would no longer be interested in it. Black Kite (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by VanamondeIn addition to the above concerns, I would note the issues with NPOV here, where they user sources discussing what officials said and present those statements as fact in Wikipedia's voice with no attribution. This is an easy error for a new user to make, but the need for attribution has been explained to them multiple times at Talk:Narendra Modi. And speaking of frivolous warnings, there was this bizarre message to me a little while ago. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 15:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning BlackOrchidd
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Indeffed by Bbb23 as a normal admin action. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Melvintickle16
None I'm aware of.
01:15, 29 May 2024 I posted a message to their talkpage. Air on White ( talk) 01:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC) Discussion concerning Melvintickle16Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Melvintickle16Statement by The KipIt appears Bbb23 has already indef'd the user in question for disruptive editing, so I think this case can be archived. The Kip ( contribs) 02:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Melvintickle16
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Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
I'm aware. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 13:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
I only made a change to a talk page, which is usually the way I can make my opinions known on a locked or protected page. The notice that it was only for extended confirmed users was on the top of the section, and not on the top of the page, so I missed it. I believe a week block is fairly severe under this circumstance. I have read through CTOP and ARBECR, and will abide by these rules to avoid this in the future.
I told them You could also read the information that was provided about the WP:CTOP designation on the Arab/Israel conflict and WP:ARBECR and demonstrate that you understand and will abide by the sanctions in the topic area in an unblock request
and yet we're still here.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 13:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
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אקעגן said that they have read through CTOP and ARBECR, and will abide by these rules
. I think that's good enough for an unblock. If they abide by these rules, and not
WP:GAME ARBECR, we should be fine? Don't make 100+ trivial edits to reach 500 edits.
starship
.paint (
RUN) 14:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Complainant per WP:ARBECR has no standing to even make this complaint and it should be dismissed with prejudice. See, for example see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive356#Selfstudier "As a non-EC editor, you essentially have no standing to make edits related to the topic. You can make an edit request, but any other editor can remove it, even without providing reason. Further, making a complaint against another editor as a non-EC editor in the WP:ARBPIA area is fully not allowed." Selfstudier ( talk) 14:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
I have a question for אקעגן. You were notified of the ARBPIA restrictions on 2024-03-20, and by convention, the assumption is that you read it because you removed it. You then made 9 edits to Portal:Current events/2024 to include content unambiguously within scope of the restrictions over a period of a month or so. Why did you think that was okay and what could have prevented it? Sean.hoyland ( talk) 15:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Selfstudier's reasoning is interesting. Not sure I buy the "this is not a complaint" idea. It is a complaint against something, an admin action, the severity of the action, and it's a block appeal. It can be both. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 15:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
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Editor had edited Nick McKenzie to insert material which RfC determined should not be in the article. Upon being advised by myself of consensus (as determined by RfC close) and what they could do if disagree with the close, editor has sought to misinterpret WP policy and engaged in casting WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:ABF. Editor appears to be a WP:SPA who is editing to WP:RGW. TarnishedPath talk 14:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Sentaso, I have moved your comment to your section. Please write any comments you have in your section of the notice. TarnishedPath talk 09:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
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Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
2. @ TarnishedPath: JML1148 in their own words stated "numerical majority against removing the content" and then claimed there was consensus to remove the content.
- Yes, yourself and others related to this appear to be Australian as per your Wikipedia profiles. Mckenzie is Australian, and there's seems to be a commonality of those in favor of removing content related him are also Australian. Certainly potential for Conflict_of_interest
3. Evidence was in point 2 above re JML1148 comment.
4. I didn't reinsert anything, I don't know why you're making things up that WP history shows to be false. I added to the discussion highlighting it had been prematurely closed. I've also asked who/when the discussion was deemed over and with what authority, which you didn't answer. If yourself and associates had followed WP best practice there would clear sections on the page detailing why the page would be archived. The page has been blasted with text claiming the discussion is closed, but there appears to be no grounds for closure. I've asked you several times if you could source why this page was archived, which you've ignored, likely because you cannot.
5. As per comments on their Talk page (which he keeps removing) it appears TarnishedPath does not understand some aspects of WP:BLP.
A quote of yours from the Mckenzie archive "if McKenzie is not named, then what is the material doing on a WP:BLP about McKenzie? TarnishedPathtalk 00:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)"
BLPs do not always need to explicitly mention the subject's name as long as the information can be clearly and unambiguously attributed to the subject
6. Duplicate content, see my point 2 above.
7. You don't understand BLP, one should be grateful I highlighted your misunderstanding on your talk page
8. Duplicate content
Sentaso (
talk) 09:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Regarding comments below, these references to talk pages are a red herring. The real issue is why the Mckenzie discussion page was archived, the sham RFC and why BLP is not being followed correctly for the Mckenzie page. Tarnished Path falsely suggested that BLP need to name the person which is incorrect. I did him a favor by raising this issue on his talk page and he gets aggressive and removes the content. Why not focus on the main issues instead of the number of edits a user has? Unhelpful Sentaso ( talk) 13:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
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Notified a partisan forum, violating WP:CANVASS. They were aware of this issue, and the RfC that this is a repeat of raised the same issue, but they rejected it and decided to issue the notification anyway.
That this is canvassing can be seen in the evidence below, which analyses three recent RfC's held at the Village Pump and proves that the WikiProject is non-representative on this topic, with a collective opinion that deviates by a significant margin from that of the broader community. These WP:ARBCOM principles are also relevant (emphasis mine):
The determination of proper consensus is vulnerable to unrepresentative participation from the community. Because of the generally limited number of editors likely to participate in any given discussion, an influx of biased or partisan editors is likely to generate an improper illusion of a consensus where none (or a different one) would exist in a wider population.
While it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion may be considered disruptive. In particular, messages to fora mostly populated by a biased or partisan audience — especially when not public — are considered canvassing and disrupt the consensus building process by making participation lopsided.
Note that this only applies to transgender topics. As far as I know the Wikiproject is not partisan on other topics within its area of interest and thus there are no issues with notifying them on those topics.
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Other issues related to this RfC including misrepresenting sources; they have
claimed that the Telegraph promoted the
litter boxes in schools hoax about a British school
- but none of the articles they provide in support of this claim promotes it, and one of them actually
states such claims are a hoax.
There was a consensus in that discussion that notifying Wikiprojects is almost never canvassing; given the number of editors who qualified their comments there wasn’t a consensus that it never is.
Further, this is a contentious topic; editors should stay well clear of violating policy, and notifying a fora that is known to be partisan isn’t doing that, regardless of what you believe consensus at an informal and non-specific discussion says. 12:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Do not send inappropriate notices, as defined in the section directly belowBilledMammal ( talk) 12:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
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Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
I anticipated that this user would make a tendentious report like this based on comments made on previous discussions, which is why I asked the village pump about this situation before I did it.
In short, there is a strong and recent community consensus that notifying all relevant Wikiprojects is not WP:CANVASSING. And I would like to point out to any admins evaluating here that BilledMammal must know this because they participated in the thread. Loki ( talk) 11:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm really not sure about this. Is it a surprise that WP:LGBT would be partisan on LGBT issues? No. But is the topic of the coverage of trans issues by the Telegraph related to WP:LGBT? Definitely yes? starship .paint ( RUN) 09:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Echoing starship.paint. In AI area, we routinely post to 3 projects, one each on either side and the other theoretically neutral. Here there is no other "side" so presumably editors with an interest in the subject matter camp out at the given project and then we are led to believe there is evidence that this forum is "partisan". Not convinced that this is a sufficient reason to invoke canvassing, though, it's not as if it isn't being done in plain sight and projects are seemingly a natural place to advertise a discussion. Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
This is a particularly frivolous report that has been brought.
Per
WP:APPNOTE:
An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:
The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion.
This should be closed with no action. TarnishedPath talk 12:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
one or more WikiProjects. If you contend that the posting was inappropriate per WP:INAPPNOTE then you need to bring specific evidence beyond them posting to only one WikiProjects which is clearly allowed per WP:APPNOTE. The implicit contention of your whole argument is that WikiProject LGBT studies would only have editors of one side and none other. I find your argument extremely lacking. TarnishedPath talk 13:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Suggest trout for BilledMammal. Wrt "Other issues related to this RfC including misrepresenting sources; they have claimed that the Telegraph promoted the litter boxes in schools hoax about a British school - but none of the articles they provide in support of this claim makes it, and one of them actually states such claims are a hoax."
. But reading the opening paragraph makes it clear to any careful reader that Loki is complaining the Telegraph reported that the school let a child identify as a cat, not that they provided litter trays. Loki goes onto say this is an example of "this general style of dubious claim in right wing media" which is discussed at our article on the litter tray hoax. The specifics of this one UK example doesn't include litter trays, but it contains all the other elements including continued coverage of the story after debunking. I admit that in my comments later in the RFC, I referred to it as "the cat litter story", which was my own carelessness. So what Loki claimed is directly supported by the sources (heading: "School that allowed child to identify as cat faces government investigation", "School engulfed in ‘cat gender’ row turns to parents for views on self-identity", "Schools let children identify as horses, dinosaurs... and a moon", etc) One can debate how closely this tracks the cat litter hoax or not, but I don't think Loki misrepresented the source. Multiple other sources have criticised the Telegraph story as an example of something
too good to check and
patently false
so on. So this isn't something Loki just invented themselves. --
Colin°
Talk 13:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Suggest trout for BilledMammal per Colin and TarnishedPath; notifying relevant wikiprojects (Loki notified the journalism, LGBT and UK projects and the NEWS page) is well- and long-established as fine, and (as pointed out above) was just recently affirmed. That BilledMammal presented his argument so recently in the VPP and consensus was clearly that notifying relevant projects is appropriate makes this filing look...tendentious; I don't know if it's forum-shopping per se, but it comes across as WP:IDHT-y. -sche ( talk) 17:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
BM should recieve a warning, not just a trout, for wasting the community's time for a month over this issue and this ridiculous filing based on WP:IDHT. Some context:
BM is attempting to sanction an editor for upholding a consensus that BM is not only aware has existed for a decade, but has been re-affirmed 3 times in the last month. WP:TE and WP:IDHT are obvious. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 20:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I haven’t read the DRV but I haven't seen the consensus upheld even once in the past month- WP:IDHT even at AE, with threads and diffs linked (which also link to discussions from a decade ago).
and as a general note, why would you want to notify a partisan forum?- for the love of god will an uninvolved admin warn them about this continued WP:BATTLEGROUND claim and tell them to WP:DROPTHESTICK on it?
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User has a pattern of edit warring, incivility and NotForum violations, including but not limited to:
Issue is generally apparent on topics regarding I/P, with at least one occurrence in topics regarding Judaism. This is my first AE filing, so apologies for any errors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:JDiala&diff=prev&oldid=1227053862
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More interesting than what the points raised are is what they are not. There is little in the way of discussion on the substance of my edits. Instead, the discussion focuses primarily on subjective feel-based things. Are quotes by controversial figures acceptable on userpages? When is using the word "Zionist" appropriate and when is it inappropriate? Is it "uncivil" to say someone is "out of line" when you perceive their conduct breaches policy?
This is a contentious subject area. Giving one side veto power on "offensiveness" like this is not right.
After posting a message on the admin noticeboard regarding this issue, I saw that there is already a discussion here. So reposting it here (shortened): The Israeli–Palestinian conflict, what is known here as ARBPIA, is a very sensitive issue. My personal opinion, as someone that the conflict also concerns his personal life (I am Palestinian :)) One should deal with the issue carefully. I would like to raise the issue of one editor - @ JDiala's behavior that, as I see it, not only harm's Wikipedia's objectivity, but also harms the chance of a peaceful life in our area. Here are some examples:
I saw that editors have been asking them to moderate their language many times before. [ link - 2014], [ link - 2015], [ link - January 2024], [ link - February 2024].
The editor even received a week-long ban in December for violating 1RR. [ link]
As a Palestinian, whose life is affected daily by the conflict, with my criticisms of Israel, I find this behavior problematic for Wikipedia. We have to stay objective. I think JDiala should be asked not to deal at all with a topic that clearly arouses their anger. Their edits hurt the project, and ultimately the Palestinians as well.
Please don't add fuel to the fire. Rajoub570 ( talk) 15:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I think both FortunateSons and JDiala are assets for ARBPIA. Very different kinds of assets with very different tones. This conversation shows how hard it is to build bridges and find common ground in ARBPIA. It would be good if JDiala could find a way to live with and adapt to what they regard as tone policing in the topic area. It's unfortunate that, in my view anyway, ARBCOM constraints accidentally create a selection pressure that give a fitness advantage to quiet, nearly invisible, highly motivated sockpuppets over noisy editors like JDiala.
Regarding "X do not go out to murder Y because they are Y", quotes from award winning Israeli journalists like Amira Hass are normally acceptable on Wikipedia. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 03:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
While certainly not raising to the level of an immediate block, the continuous low-lewel disruption by JDiala, evidenced above, has been annoying enough to many editors, including to me, that a temporary TBAN feels like an appropriate response. — kashmīrī TALK 17:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Very BATTLEGROUND-y in a way that is disruptive. I'd support a TBAN. On the user page quote: though I find the quote disgusting, and my interpretation of its presence on the user page is, to say the least, not positive, I don't believe in trying to interpret editors' views when it comes to making decisions about how to treat them, nor in sanctioning editors for their apparent views—I think sanctions should only be practical, and I think everyone has the right to whatever expressions and whatever impressions they desire (out of article-space). But I understand I'm in a serious minority there (right?). Anyways, that's all irrelevant. This user is disruptive and clearly doesn't edit with the care and spirit of collaboration that this topic area demands. Zanahary ( talk) 23:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
For the record, I'm at least slightly involved now as I have expressed dislike of JDiala's tone during the current RFC. As Kashmiri notes, it's not vandalism or one big blowup, but tiny bits of pecking away. The RFC close was absolutely atrocious; rather than see an unusually sparsely attended RFC on what is normally a well-attended topic, JDiala took it upon themself to close their own RFC in favor of their own proposal in an extremely contentious area. Between the quotes that ended up at ANI and the constant pushing of the singular subject as far as civility and stretching WP:NPOV like taffy, JDiala's a net negative in this area. Justifying their extreme one-sided behavior towards Israel by saying that there are "other states like China and Russia, while awful, are significantly richer and more interesting societies" and then comparing the idea of having a proper RFC to Israel's response when settlers' war crimes are alleged, is just more gasoline on the fire. Real WP:BATTLEGROUND stuff here. CoffeeCrumbs ( talk) 00:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
I do not think in recent months 1RR has been an issue for me
isn't accurate. Just glancing through their contributions I see they violated it when trying to implement their close:
BilledMammal ( talk) 01:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
from human rights organizations and United Nations officialsfrom the end of the sentence to the middle; you moved it back to its former position at the end. That is a revert. As reverts go, not overly concerning, but it is a revert - and your second revert, edit warring to try to enforce an out-of-process close, is very concerning.