The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the following be added to MOS:DEADNAME?
For deceased transgender or non-binary persons, their former name (birth name, professional name, stage name, or pseudonym) should be included in their main biographical article only if the name is documented in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person.
For pre-RFC discussions on this proposal, see:
This text was added boldly by different editors, originally in July and again in October, but was removed in December. 18:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
should be includedto
may be included. This is because the "should" language mandates inclusion when the criteria are met, and in my opinion that goes against the consensus of one of our other recent RfCs on this guideline. That RfC left us with the consensus that
there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest.(emphasis from original close). In the discussions prior to this RfC, BilledMammal raised the point that
"encyclopedic interest" is established by the use in "multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person", but unfortunately that's not really codified in any policy or guideline, or even an essay. Encyclopaedic interest is one of those terms that we don't really define on enwiki. The closest we get is the paragraph at WP:NOTEVERYTHING. This point from BilledMammal also runs counter to another part of of the close of the recent RfC that I linked above, which states
Where, exactly, the lines of encyclopedic interest and avoiding confusion are is not simple or clear and will likely need discussion on individual articles, although there is definitely space for more guidance in the MOS.That part of the close, in my opinion, requires that whatever guidance we add, it does not compel inclusion when the criteria is met. Overall this guidance is both necessary and needed, primarily because deceased trans and non-binary persons are the only folks we don't have deadname/former name guidance for. And we should be setting an inclusion floor for their specific circumstances. Secondarily because, in the lack guidance, we have scenarios where editors almost immediately add ( WP:BDP notwithstanding) the former name of a trans or non-binary person shortly after they die. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 20:54, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
A digression on logic, definitions, and NOTEVERYTHING.
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…documented in) to keep the implication that multiple sources are desired, but without the strict necessity. Only because I can imagine strong sources (a major news agency feature, or a significant book or similar) would suffice alone. I don’t oppose it without those changes, but I do think it is likely easier to remove strict language now than it might be later, while keeping the spirit of it largely equivalent. — HTGS ( talk) 03:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)multiplesecondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person
should be included in their main biographical article only if the name is documented in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the personis much more reasonable. VickKiang (talk) 08:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest.The community consensus barrier for inclusion is already high as
the community believes that, for the most part, the prior name should not be used. What this proposal does is give guidance on the conditions where the name becomes of encyclopaedic interest, reflecting the already existing consensus on this point. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 23:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
that the community believes that, for the most part, the prior name should not be used.What this proposal does is set the criteria where the name can be used. In effect, this proposal is fulfilling the already existing community consensus on this issue. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 23:50, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Nobody is trying to add unverifiable names cited only to primary sources, and where the name is verifiable, the normal editing process can decide each case on its own merits, so this proposed policy is completely unnecessary.per Iffy. Additionally already
A person's deadname should not be used unless the person was notable under that name, and that notability is evidenced by multiple reliable sourcesper Ivanvector. This feels like a solution looking for a problem. In the few transgender related content disagreements that I've been involved in, this wouldn't have helped at all, since there the issue revolved around such matters as what WAS the name the person had chosen to live under, and therefore WAS there a deadname, to which we should be applying policy? Plus simple clarity matters. As Blueboar says below
Deadnaming, as with most Transgender related issues, is a very personal thing, and does not lend itself to a “one-size-fits-all” solution, which this proposal seems to want to mandate. Pincrete ( talk) 08:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
This holds for any phase of the person's life, including death, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise." -- Enos733 ( talk) 05:19, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
"... only if the name is documented in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the name."(as opposed to
non-trivial coverage of the person.") The change to the new language substantially limits any deleterious effects from the new requirement. In fact, it's possible that almost every instance where one couldn't find at least a couple of secondary RS discussing the subject specifically, WEIGHT was going to apply to keep any challenged content out anyway. I'd be more comfortable without the "multiple" in there (can't remember if that was part of the previous language debated at the MoS talk page discussion, or if it has been added since), but I for one am willing to look past it to put my support behind something the community might be able to finally agree to.
should be usedshould be swapped to
may be used, as their deadname might not be of utter importance (e.g. they transitioned earlier on but RS do mention that name). LilianaUwU ( talk / contributions) 20:15, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
special rules about "former names" that don't apply to all deceased subjects". Pincrete's oppose approvingly quotes
A person's deadname should not be used unless the person was notable under that name, and that notability is evidenced by multiple reliable sources, which would involve extending the "only if notable under that name" MOS:GENDERID guideline for living subjects to deceased subjects. Those rationales seem antithetical to each other. Does the proposed wording go too far, or not go far enough?-- Trystan ( talk) 13:25, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
The way I was going to handle the near, but not quite reached, consensus for option 3 (what SFR is calling 2.8) was by saying that 3 had consensus, but by footnote or other mitigating language the not completely absolute nature of that consensus should be noted.For full context, option 3 in that RfC was to remove the word living from the current second paragraph of GENDERID, with the result of the change being that if we could never include their former name(s) while they were alive, we would not be able to include them once they died. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 17:59, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Where, exactly, the lines of encyclopedic interest and avoiding confusion are is not simple or clear and will likely need discussion on individual articlesand
One of the concerns in some of the supports for the stricter wordings was that leaving it open would lead to long, sometimes unproductive discussions, and this is likely to happen.(Although other commenters here correctly note the closer is incorrect in saying more specific guidelines should be in MOS.) CREEP and all -- stricter policy won't stop people arguing about this, especially not over those dead people who would have some historical relevance. SamuelRiv ( talk) 04:21, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
-- Keiyakins ( talk) 22:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, we may never know, because all citations to that person that are verifiable online will only contain that person's current name. Now while there may still be offline citations to that person's work, for example in papers that were never digitised or otherwise released online, those will be in the minority, particularly for works published in the last 30-40 years. As someone who helps author, and patrols trans and non-binary biographical articles including those for academics, I just can't see this being an issue in practice. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
They do not require them to be changed, in all cases.I never said that a name change was mandatory. Just that it is now easy. Getting the IEEE to update your own articles with updated name and pronouns simply requires listing their DOIs followed by a checkbox asking how the author biography within articles should be updated on an online webform. Getting the IEEE to cascade update works that cite yours with a new name is quite literally a yes/no checkbox on the same form. It is however very, very common for a trans or non-binary person to change their name, because names are typically gendered (eg John vs Jane). In my experience, the vast majority of trans and non-binary academics will likely request a name change on their prior published works, because for the majority deadnaming is psychologically harmful.
This draft policy does not make that distinction; it merely says that all past names be forbidden without significant sourcingRegardless of whether they're alive or dead, if a person hasn't changed their name, then by definition they don't have a past name. They just have a name. If a trans or non-binary person (academic or otherwise) choses not to change their name, and only their pronouns, then we will continue to use their only name, in the same manner as we do currently, and just update their pronouns and gendered terminology where appropriate. If however they are in the minority of cases, where they change their names and are happy to be referred to by their former name for works and activities prior to changing their name, like Caitlyn Jenner, then that is something we handle largely through the current fourth paragraph of GENDERID and an application of WP:IAR. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 17:26, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This again? Additional further reading:
Are we going to have this re-proposed every few months until everyone is worn down and lets it through? That seems to be the MO in this topic area. Anomie ⚔ 23:03, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
should be included...only if <condition>is when the condition is met, the content must be included. This is because in my WP:ENGVAR (British English), should and must are synonyms. Now yes this is limitative because the condition has to be met before inclusion can happen, however I don't like that we're mandating inclusion once that criteria is met. That doesn't allow for editorial discretion, beyond the exceedingly high barrier of WP:IAR, where the condition might be met, but inclusion might not be mandated due to the circumstances of the article. A typical example of this would be a trans or non-binary person who was killed, and several sensationalistic but otherwise reliable sources include their former name. By making this
may be included...only if <condition>, we explicitly allowing for editorial discretion at a local basis to determine whether inclusion is warranted, taking into account due weight of all other sources published about a person posthumously. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 17:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
in my WP:ENGVAR (British English), should and must are synonymssimply is not correct. I learned to read and write in England myself, and there is no confusion between these concepts in the British dialectal range, as a review of British dictionaries will demonstrate (e.g. [1] [2]). If it really were the case, then an enormous number of our WP:P&G rules and advice (not to mention requirements versus recommendations in off-site standards documents of all kinds) would be constantly and hopelessly misinterpreted and misapplied is disastrous ways, but this is clearly not happening. We are not going to end up with must language about anything like this just because someone has trouble distinguishing it from should. And must language doesn't belong in our guidelines anyway, due to what guidelines are and the function they serve (except in the rare instance a guideline is stating the hard fact of a technical limitation of the MediaWiki software, or is reiterating a point from a non-negotiable policy as it applies to whatever point the guideline is addressing). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:49, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Sideswipe9th's proposal above of "changing 'should be included' to 'may be included'"
is problematic (and would invalidate that editor's own statement that "What this proposal does is give guidance on the conditions where the name becomes of encyclopaedic interest, reflecting the already existing consensus on this point"). It would provide a loophole whereby any former name of encyclopedic interest could be wikilawyered against and stonewalled indefinitely, on the grounds that inclusion is not recommended ("should"), much less required ("must", which is language that doesn't belong in a guideline), but is only an optional "may be included" matter. I.e., that it is a question that must be settled by debate on an article-by-article basis. We already know for a fact from long-term and still-ongoing disputation at various articles that a number of editors will do everything they can to suppress mention of former names of trans/enby/genderqueer persons, and that there are editors who try to include them always despite what MOS:DEADNAME already says. So, a conclusion here to include this "may" version would simply codify the current untenable situation of perpetual editwarring and conflict, and fail to do anything useful at all. If anything, it would do harm to the version of MOS:DEADNAME we already have (which clearly has "should be included ... only if ..." – i.e., inclusion is recommended if the criteria are met). Worse, a few people have even proposed (in multiple of these discussions about MOS:GENDERID and related matters) extending the notion of former-name-suppression to everyone across the board. This is clearly counter to the purpose/interests of an encyclopedia.
Changing the "should" to "may" is also counter to the conclusions of the previous RfCs that led to this point, in which acceptance of a higher standard for inclusion was, for a significant quotient of the !voters, conditional on that inclusion actually happening if the more stringent criteria were met. (And logically so: "The criteria are met in this case." "You can't include it anyway." That would make no sense, and would be "criteria" for nothing.) Whatever the intent was, this has the direct effect of an end-run around consensus that has already been established. So, I've had to modify my !vote above to explicitly oppose this mid-stream change. WP:Policy writing is hard and even one-word tweaks can make fundamental differences in the intent, meaning, scope, and interpretation of any piece of WP:P&G material. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
It would provide a loophole whereby any former name of encyclopedic interest could be wikilawyered against and stonewalled indefinitely ... So, a conclusion here to include this "may" version would simply codify the current untenable situation of perpetual editwarring and conflict, and fail to do anything useful at all.Respectfully, what you're describing here is a behavioural conduct issue, and not a problem with the proposed alteration to
may. We already have methods for handling such issues, starting at WP:DR and escalating all the way up to WP:AN3, WP:ANI, or WP:AE if it is an intractable problem. In my experience in this content area, you'd be hard pressed to find an editor who doesn't respect an established consensus, outside of new editors and a handful of LTAs. And those editors who don't respect consensus, or otherwise engage in tendentious wikilawyering and/or edit warring are typically swiftly shown the exit door.
And logically so: "The criteria are met in this case." "You can't include it anyway." That would make no sense, and would be "criteria" for nothing.That is a very unlikely scenario to occur in my opinion. And even if we use the "should" variant of the guideline, not only does WP:IAR let a consensus form around selectively ignoring that part of the guideline, but as can be evidenced with the lengthy back and forth between Trovatore and myself the "should" version can be interpreted as "optionally include the former name, when the criteria are met", versus the interpretation that you and I share of "always include the former name, when the criteria are met".
Whatever the intent was, this has the direct effect of an end-run around consensus that has already been established.I strongly disagree, and in fact I think you have it backwards. The May/June RfC left us with a consensus that the inclusion or exclusion of the former names of the deceased
will likely need discussion on individual articlesto account for the circumstances unique to each article, even with additional guidance in this guideline. Taking the hardline interpretation of "should" largely precludes us from having the discussion taking into account the unique circumstances of each article, when fully considering whether or not to include a former name, outside of an application of WP:IAR. Discussion is par for the course for any CTOP, and as the closure of the May/June RfC states is
nothing we all haven't seen before. My greatest concern with the "should" version is how it would affect articles like Leelah Alcorn or Murder of Brianna Ghey. For both of those articles, there exists a consensus to exclude their respective former names. They aren't necessary to understand the particulars of their respective lives and circumstances of death, and if you are familiar with the sourcing and content for both articles there are very good reasons why we would want to exclude the former names, not the least because of WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 22:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
That is a very unlikely scenario to occur in my opinion: LOL, based on what? We have two extremely entrenched camps demanding the deadnames either be entirely suppressed, or that they always be included if sourceable. Neither camp is going to shut up and go away, and will do everything in their power to wikilawyer their way to victory. The only solution for this problem is language that unmistakably sets a stringent inclusion/exclusion criterion, in very clear wording, that actually is a criterion with no wiggle-room in either direction, not wishy-washy vagueness that can be spun however someone wants to interpret it in their editwar. On your third point, you've misinterpreted what I said; it was not that the closer chose to point something out in their own wording, it's that any actual assessment of the !votes by anyone makes it patently obvious that those in support of something like this expect the criterion to actually be a criterion, not just vague and gameable lipservice to temporarily make the RfCs stop dragging on. Such a "solution" would resolve nothing and just lead to another round of RfCs. Some effect on various articles is a necessary result of a wording change no matter what the wording change is; for all the hand-wringing you may have about two articles, someone on the other side of this has worry-wart concerns about some other articles. It is not possible to make everyone 100% happy here; this is the nature of compromise. If comromise doesn't happen on both sides of this (and the majority of people are going to be in the middle, already worn out by this polarization), then this RfC is going to fail, and there'll be another, and that will fail, and so on. There are already people at WT:MOSBIO calling for at least a year-long mormatorium on raising this matter again in any form or forum. The time is now to get to a version pretty much everyone can live with at least for now, or we'll get nothing at all. If you really, really think that the version as originally proposed is a step backward from the current language, then go ahead and oppose it, but it really is not. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:33, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
LOL, based on what?Based on my experience of editing and patrolling many of the articles this guideline applies to. In my experience, the most common type of disruption is unannounced mass pronoun changes (eg she -> he, he -> she, they -> he or she). This is most typically done by IP and non-autoconfirmed editors, and the most typical response is to revert per the guideline and to seek page protection if the disruption is sustained. This type of disruption is so common that we have a warn and tag edit filter targeted to try and catch this. The second most common type of disruption is unannounced name changes in articles about a work created by or featuring a trans or non-binary person (eg something like changing Elliot Page to Ellen in Beyond: Two Souls). Again, this is most typically done by IP and non-autoconfirmed editors, and the most typical response is to revert per the guideline and seek page protection if the disruption is sustained.
We have two extremely entrenched camps demanding the deadnames either be entirely suppressed, or that they always be included if sourceable. Neither camp is going to shut up and go away, and will do everything in their power to wikilawyer their way to victory.In the last three years there has only been two articles where the inclusion or exclusion of the former name of a living or recently deceased trans or non-binary person has been extensively discussed. The first was Isla Bryson. This was a particularly nuanced case over how we should interpret the current second paragraph of GENDERID for an individual who had changed their name prior to becoming notable, but the articles that were published establishing her notability overwhelmingly included her former name. This was ultimately settled by an RfC and there has been no disruption or tendentious editing on that article in relation to the former name since the RfC was closed. The consensus from that RfC has been respected by all participants.
it's that any actual assessment of the !votes by anyone makes it patently obvious that those in support of something like this expect the criterion to actually be a criterion, not just vague and gameable lipservice to temporarily make the RfCs stop dragging on.The assessment of the !votes, by the closer of the RfC sub-question was that
From what I've read here, tightening up the baseline for including the prior name and/or outlining some of the occasions it may be included is likely to result in consensus language. My proposal makes this a baseline for inclusion, without mandating inclusion. Personally, based on the result of the previous RfCs on this issue, I do not think we should be mandating inclusion when the criteria is met, and instead should be providing criteria that sets a baseline for when inclusion is allowed. This allows for normal editorial consensus to form around inclusion or exclusion of the former name(s) based on the unique circumstances of each individual article. In some cases this may require an RfC, particularly for those cases that are nuanced or otherwise borderline to a baseline inclusion criteria, but in many cases a regular discussion on the talk page will likely suffice.
If you really, really think that the version as originally proposed is a step backward from the current language, then go ahead and oppose it, but it really is not.I would kindly suggest you re-read my !vote above. I support the version as proposed, and I also think it would be significantly improved by changing from
should be includedto
may be included. I'm not going to oppose it because it does not contain the exact language that I believe would be ideal, as that is a very "all or nothing, no compromises" approach that isn't helpful in this circumstance and really runs counter to your point about compromises. What I have done is propose a change in the hopes that it would convince other editors, one that I will happily advocate for making, as I have been doing in this discussion with yourself, while still nonetheless accepting the proposal as it was originally written. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:35, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not going to oppose it because it does not contain the exact language that I believe would be ideal: Glad to hear it, and sorry I misinterpreted you. Your defense of your alternative version has seemed to me like opposition to the original. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:24, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
the point I'm making is about a particular type of disruptionA particular type of disruption, that does not seem to have occurred in the last few years. If that type of disruption was ongoing, especially so if it is as serious as you're alleging, then it would be evident from both the list of discussions at MOS:GIDINFO, and also in the behavioural cases brought to WP:ANI and WP:AE. And again, I'm not saying it hasn't happened in the past, there is a reason why we have a CTOP for gender and sexuality and the prolonged development of this guideline, just that it's not happening now.
It doesn't matter what the closer of a previous discussion said; that's just one quasi-random person's attempt to nutshell a long and nuanced discussion.That is not what the closer of a discussion does. The role of the closer is to describe the consensus established in the discussion, not to insert their own commentary on it. When the closer said that setting a baseline for inclusion is likely to result in consensus, it is because that is what was said and evident from the discussion. We all know from experience that closers who insert their opinions into closes have their closes challenged and frequently overturned, because they do not represent what was said by the participants, and it is important to note that the closure of the May/June 2023 RfC was not challenged because of this. The closer's summary is useful in this regard, because it saves us from saying something like "per [list of editors here] in the previous RfC...".
Their views are not magically going to disappear, and they (plus others showing up with similar concerns) are the ones who have to be convinced.True. And we know from this that the reason why the proposal in June/July 2023 failed was because the barrier for inclusion in that version was ultimately seen as too high. The inclusion barrier for this proposal is, in my opinion, quite a bit lower than the June/July proposal because of that failure. However we also have to respect the consensus that the previous RfC's established, that
there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interestand that
that always including the prior name, or assuming the prior name is of encyclopedic importance is soundly rejected by the community. Because the proposal above assumes the prior name is of encyclopedic relevance, when the criteria are met, it is failing to respect the consensus from the first RfC. It's not significant enough that I would oppose the proposal, but it is significant enough that I think the language change is an important one to make.
Glad to hear it, and sorry I misinterpreted you.Thanks :) Sideswipe9th ( talk) 23:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Except it hasEvidence please, otherwise both the Sagan standard and Hitchen's razor apply.
The entire crux of the problem here is that your version sets up a "condition" that is not really a condition but yet another "maybe"How is that any different from WP:WEIGHT? Assessing the weight of a piece of content is not some formalised or prescribed test. It's a judgement call based on an analysis of the relevant sources, tempered by an emergent consensus. WP:VNOT tells us that
while all information must be verifiable for inclusion into an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article.One of our core content policies explicitly states that we do not mandate inclusion of content, consensus can always form around exclusion. But this proposal mandates inclusion of the former names when the criteria is met. That goes against the idea of a consensus forming for the exclusion of the content, except in the circumstance of WP:IAR. And I think we can all agree that where VNOT states that consensus can form around exclusion of content, it is not solely through an application of IAR. Why are we setting a standard for mandated inclusion in this guideline that we don't set in our core content policies?
returning to dwelling on what some old closer saidI'm returning to what the most recently expressed community wide consensus is. The role of the closer is to determine and describe the consensus that was reached in a discussion. If the closer states that there is a clear consensus for or against a point, it is only because that is what the community decided in the discussion. Conversely we call the situation where a closer imposes their view, over that of the community WP:SUPERVOTING, and when that occurs the relevant closes are typically undone and it is left to another editor to properly determine the consensus that has been reached. Of course consensus can change, but that requires another discussion or RfC on the same point to overturn it, whether in whole or in part.
in the original proposal here; "a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest" is encapsulated in the "should be included ... only if ..." ruleI fundamentally disagree. By saying the former name
should be included ... only if ...you are setting a criteria where it becomes automatically of encyclopedic interest. To fully respect that close, the inclusion of the former name has to be optional when the criteria are met. We have to set a baseline where inclusion is allowed, but not required. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 05:04, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the following be added to MOS:DEADNAME?
For deceased transgender or non-binary persons, their former name (birth name, professional name, stage name, or pseudonym) should be included in their main biographical article only if the name is documented in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person.
For pre-RFC discussions on this proposal, see:
This text was added boldly by different editors, originally in July and again in October, but was removed in December. 18:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
should be includedto
may be included. This is because the "should" language mandates inclusion when the criteria are met, and in my opinion that goes against the consensus of one of our other recent RfCs on this guideline. That RfC left us with the consensus that
there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest.(emphasis from original close). In the discussions prior to this RfC, BilledMammal raised the point that
"encyclopedic interest" is established by the use in "multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person", but unfortunately that's not really codified in any policy or guideline, or even an essay. Encyclopaedic interest is one of those terms that we don't really define on enwiki. The closest we get is the paragraph at WP:NOTEVERYTHING. This point from BilledMammal also runs counter to another part of of the close of the recent RfC that I linked above, which states
Where, exactly, the lines of encyclopedic interest and avoiding confusion are is not simple or clear and will likely need discussion on individual articles, although there is definitely space for more guidance in the MOS.That part of the close, in my opinion, requires that whatever guidance we add, it does not compel inclusion when the criteria is met. Overall this guidance is both necessary and needed, primarily because deceased trans and non-binary persons are the only folks we don't have deadname/former name guidance for. And we should be setting an inclusion floor for their specific circumstances. Secondarily because, in the lack guidance, we have scenarios where editors almost immediately add ( WP:BDP notwithstanding) the former name of a trans or non-binary person shortly after they die. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 20:54, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
A digression on logic, definitions, and NOTEVERYTHING.
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…documented in) to keep the implication that multiple sources are desired, but without the strict necessity. Only because I can imagine strong sources (a major news agency feature, or a significant book or similar) would suffice alone. I don’t oppose it without those changes, but I do think it is likely easier to remove strict language now than it might be later, while keeping the spirit of it largely equivalent. — HTGS ( talk) 03:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)multiplesecondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person
should be included in their main biographical article only if the name is documented in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the personis much more reasonable. VickKiang (talk) 08:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest.The community consensus barrier for inclusion is already high as
the community believes that, for the most part, the prior name should not be used. What this proposal does is give guidance on the conditions where the name becomes of encyclopaedic interest, reflecting the already existing consensus on this point. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 23:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
that the community believes that, for the most part, the prior name should not be used.What this proposal does is set the criteria where the name can be used. In effect, this proposal is fulfilling the already existing community consensus on this issue. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 23:50, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Nobody is trying to add unverifiable names cited only to primary sources, and where the name is verifiable, the normal editing process can decide each case on its own merits, so this proposed policy is completely unnecessary.per Iffy. Additionally already
A person's deadname should not be used unless the person was notable under that name, and that notability is evidenced by multiple reliable sourcesper Ivanvector. This feels like a solution looking for a problem. In the few transgender related content disagreements that I've been involved in, this wouldn't have helped at all, since there the issue revolved around such matters as what WAS the name the person had chosen to live under, and therefore WAS there a deadname, to which we should be applying policy? Plus simple clarity matters. As Blueboar says below
Deadnaming, as with most Transgender related issues, is a very personal thing, and does not lend itself to a “one-size-fits-all” solution, which this proposal seems to want to mandate. Pincrete ( talk) 08:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
This holds for any phase of the person's life, including death, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise." -- Enos733 ( talk) 05:19, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
"... only if the name is documented in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the name."(as opposed to
non-trivial coverage of the person.") The change to the new language substantially limits any deleterious effects from the new requirement. In fact, it's possible that almost every instance where one couldn't find at least a couple of secondary RS discussing the subject specifically, WEIGHT was going to apply to keep any challenged content out anyway. I'd be more comfortable without the "multiple" in there (can't remember if that was part of the previous language debated at the MoS talk page discussion, or if it has been added since), but I for one am willing to look past it to put my support behind something the community might be able to finally agree to.
should be usedshould be swapped to
may be used, as their deadname might not be of utter importance (e.g. they transitioned earlier on but RS do mention that name). LilianaUwU ( talk / contributions) 20:15, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
special rules about "former names" that don't apply to all deceased subjects". Pincrete's oppose approvingly quotes
A person's deadname should not be used unless the person was notable under that name, and that notability is evidenced by multiple reliable sources, which would involve extending the "only if notable under that name" MOS:GENDERID guideline for living subjects to deceased subjects. Those rationales seem antithetical to each other. Does the proposed wording go too far, or not go far enough?-- Trystan ( talk) 13:25, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
The way I was going to handle the near, but not quite reached, consensus for option 3 (what SFR is calling 2.8) was by saying that 3 had consensus, but by footnote or other mitigating language the not completely absolute nature of that consensus should be noted.For full context, option 3 in that RfC was to remove the word living from the current second paragraph of GENDERID, with the result of the change being that if we could never include their former name(s) while they were alive, we would not be able to include them once they died. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 17:59, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Where, exactly, the lines of encyclopedic interest and avoiding confusion are is not simple or clear and will likely need discussion on individual articlesand
One of the concerns in some of the supports for the stricter wordings was that leaving it open would lead to long, sometimes unproductive discussions, and this is likely to happen.(Although other commenters here correctly note the closer is incorrect in saying more specific guidelines should be in MOS.) CREEP and all -- stricter policy won't stop people arguing about this, especially not over those dead people who would have some historical relevance. SamuelRiv ( talk) 04:21, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
-- Keiyakins ( talk) 22:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, we may never know, because all citations to that person that are verifiable online will only contain that person's current name. Now while there may still be offline citations to that person's work, for example in papers that were never digitised or otherwise released online, those will be in the minority, particularly for works published in the last 30-40 years. As someone who helps author, and patrols trans and non-binary biographical articles including those for academics, I just can't see this being an issue in practice. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
They do not require them to be changed, in all cases.I never said that a name change was mandatory. Just that it is now easy. Getting the IEEE to update your own articles with updated name and pronouns simply requires listing their DOIs followed by a checkbox asking how the author biography within articles should be updated on an online webform. Getting the IEEE to cascade update works that cite yours with a new name is quite literally a yes/no checkbox on the same form. It is however very, very common for a trans or non-binary person to change their name, because names are typically gendered (eg John vs Jane). In my experience, the vast majority of trans and non-binary academics will likely request a name change on their prior published works, because for the majority deadnaming is psychologically harmful.
This draft policy does not make that distinction; it merely says that all past names be forbidden without significant sourcingRegardless of whether they're alive or dead, if a person hasn't changed their name, then by definition they don't have a past name. They just have a name. If a trans or non-binary person (academic or otherwise) choses not to change their name, and only their pronouns, then we will continue to use their only name, in the same manner as we do currently, and just update their pronouns and gendered terminology where appropriate. If however they are in the minority of cases, where they change their names and are happy to be referred to by their former name for works and activities prior to changing their name, like Caitlyn Jenner, then that is something we handle largely through the current fourth paragraph of GENDERID and an application of WP:IAR. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 17:26, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This again? Additional further reading:
Are we going to have this re-proposed every few months until everyone is worn down and lets it through? That seems to be the MO in this topic area. Anomie ⚔ 23:03, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
should be included...only if <condition>is when the condition is met, the content must be included. This is because in my WP:ENGVAR (British English), should and must are synonyms. Now yes this is limitative because the condition has to be met before inclusion can happen, however I don't like that we're mandating inclusion once that criteria is met. That doesn't allow for editorial discretion, beyond the exceedingly high barrier of WP:IAR, where the condition might be met, but inclusion might not be mandated due to the circumstances of the article. A typical example of this would be a trans or non-binary person who was killed, and several sensationalistic but otherwise reliable sources include their former name. By making this
may be included...only if <condition>, we explicitly allowing for editorial discretion at a local basis to determine whether inclusion is warranted, taking into account due weight of all other sources published about a person posthumously. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 17:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
in my WP:ENGVAR (British English), should and must are synonymssimply is not correct. I learned to read and write in England myself, and there is no confusion between these concepts in the British dialectal range, as a review of British dictionaries will demonstrate (e.g. [1] [2]). If it really were the case, then an enormous number of our WP:P&G rules and advice (not to mention requirements versus recommendations in off-site standards documents of all kinds) would be constantly and hopelessly misinterpreted and misapplied is disastrous ways, but this is clearly not happening. We are not going to end up with must language about anything like this just because someone has trouble distinguishing it from should. And must language doesn't belong in our guidelines anyway, due to what guidelines are and the function they serve (except in the rare instance a guideline is stating the hard fact of a technical limitation of the MediaWiki software, or is reiterating a point from a non-negotiable policy as it applies to whatever point the guideline is addressing). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:49, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Sideswipe9th's proposal above of "changing 'should be included' to 'may be included'"
is problematic (and would invalidate that editor's own statement that "What this proposal does is give guidance on the conditions where the name becomes of encyclopaedic interest, reflecting the already existing consensus on this point"). It would provide a loophole whereby any former name of encyclopedic interest could be wikilawyered against and stonewalled indefinitely, on the grounds that inclusion is not recommended ("should"), much less required ("must", which is language that doesn't belong in a guideline), but is only an optional "may be included" matter. I.e., that it is a question that must be settled by debate on an article-by-article basis. We already know for a fact from long-term and still-ongoing disputation at various articles that a number of editors will do everything they can to suppress mention of former names of trans/enby/genderqueer persons, and that there are editors who try to include them always despite what MOS:DEADNAME already says. So, a conclusion here to include this "may" version would simply codify the current untenable situation of perpetual editwarring and conflict, and fail to do anything useful at all. If anything, it would do harm to the version of MOS:DEADNAME we already have (which clearly has "should be included ... only if ..." – i.e., inclusion is recommended if the criteria are met). Worse, a few people have even proposed (in multiple of these discussions about MOS:GENDERID and related matters) extending the notion of former-name-suppression to everyone across the board. This is clearly counter to the purpose/interests of an encyclopedia.
Changing the "should" to "may" is also counter to the conclusions of the previous RfCs that led to this point, in which acceptance of a higher standard for inclusion was, for a significant quotient of the !voters, conditional on that inclusion actually happening if the more stringent criteria were met. (And logically so: "The criteria are met in this case." "You can't include it anyway." That would make no sense, and would be "criteria" for nothing.) Whatever the intent was, this has the direct effect of an end-run around consensus that has already been established. So, I've had to modify my !vote above to explicitly oppose this mid-stream change. WP:Policy writing is hard and even one-word tweaks can make fundamental differences in the intent, meaning, scope, and interpretation of any piece of WP:P&G material. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
It would provide a loophole whereby any former name of encyclopedic interest could be wikilawyered against and stonewalled indefinitely ... So, a conclusion here to include this "may" version would simply codify the current untenable situation of perpetual editwarring and conflict, and fail to do anything useful at all.Respectfully, what you're describing here is a behavioural conduct issue, and not a problem with the proposed alteration to
may. We already have methods for handling such issues, starting at WP:DR and escalating all the way up to WP:AN3, WP:ANI, or WP:AE if it is an intractable problem. In my experience in this content area, you'd be hard pressed to find an editor who doesn't respect an established consensus, outside of new editors and a handful of LTAs. And those editors who don't respect consensus, or otherwise engage in tendentious wikilawyering and/or edit warring are typically swiftly shown the exit door.
And logically so: "The criteria are met in this case." "You can't include it anyway." That would make no sense, and would be "criteria" for nothing.That is a very unlikely scenario to occur in my opinion. And even if we use the "should" variant of the guideline, not only does WP:IAR let a consensus form around selectively ignoring that part of the guideline, but as can be evidenced with the lengthy back and forth between Trovatore and myself the "should" version can be interpreted as "optionally include the former name, when the criteria are met", versus the interpretation that you and I share of "always include the former name, when the criteria are met".
Whatever the intent was, this has the direct effect of an end-run around consensus that has already been established.I strongly disagree, and in fact I think you have it backwards. The May/June RfC left us with a consensus that the inclusion or exclusion of the former names of the deceased
will likely need discussion on individual articlesto account for the circumstances unique to each article, even with additional guidance in this guideline. Taking the hardline interpretation of "should" largely precludes us from having the discussion taking into account the unique circumstances of each article, when fully considering whether or not to include a former name, outside of an application of WP:IAR. Discussion is par for the course for any CTOP, and as the closure of the May/June RfC states is
nothing we all haven't seen before. My greatest concern with the "should" version is how it would affect articles like Leelah Alcorn or Murder of Brianna Ghey. For both of those articles, there exists a consensus to exclude their respective former names. They aren't necessary to understand the particulars of their respective lives and circumstances of death, and if you are familiar with the sourcing and content for both articles there are very good reasons why we would want to exclude the former names, not the least because of WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 22:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
That is a very unlikely scenario to occur in my opinion: LOL, based on what? We have two extremely entrenched camps demanding the deadnames either be entirely suppressed, or that they always be included if sourceable. Neither camp is going to shut up and go away, and will do everything in their power to wikilawyer their way to victory. The only solution for this problem is language that unmistakably sets a stringent inclusion/exclusion criterion, in very clear wording, that actually is a criterion with no wiggle-room in either direction, not wishy-washy vagueness that can be spun however someone wants to interpret it in their editwar. On your third point, you've misinterpreted what I said; it was not that the closer chose to point something out in their own wording, it's that any actual assessment of the !votes by anyone makes it patently obvious that those in support of something like this expect the criterion to actually be a criterion, not just vague and gameable lipservice to temporarily make the RfCs stop dragging on. Such a "solution" would resolve nothing and just lead to another round of RfCs. Some effect on various articles is a necessary result of a wording change no matter what the wording change is; for all the hand-wringing you may have about two articles, someone on the other side of this has worry-wart concerns about some other articles. It is not possible to make everyone 100% happy here; this is the nature of compromise. If comromise doesn't happen on both sides of this (and the majority of people are going to be in the middle, already worn out by this polarization), then this RfC is going to fail, and there'll be another, and that will fail, and so on. There are already people at WT:MOSBIO calling for at least a year-long mormatorium on raising this matter again in any form or forum. The time is now to get to a version pretty much everyone can live with at least for now, or we'll get nothing at all. If you really, really think that the version as originally proposed is a step backward from the current language, then go ahead and oppose it, but it really is not. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:33, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
LOL, based on what?Based on my experience of editing and patrolling many of the articles this guideline applies to. In my experience, the most common type of disruption is unannounced mass pronoun changes (eg she -> he, he -> she, they -> he or she). This is most typically done by IP and non-autoconfirmed editors, and the most typical response is to revert per the guideline and to seek page protection if the disruption is sustained. This type of disruption is so common that we have a warn and tag edit filter targeted to try and catch this. The second most common type of disruption is unannounced name changes in articles about a work created by or featuring a trans or non-binary person (eg something like changing Elliot Page to Ellen in Beyond: Two Souls). Again, this is most typically done by IP and non-autoconfirmed editors, and the most typical response is to revert per the guideline and seek page protection if the disruption is sustained.
We have two extremely entrenched camps demanding the deadnames either be entirely suppressed, or that they always be included if sourceable. Neither camp is going to shut up and go away, and will do everything in their power to wikilawyer their way to victory.In the last three years there has only been two articles where the inclusion or exclusion of the former name of a living or recently deceased trans or non-binary person has been extensively discussed. The first was Isla Bryson. This was a particularly nuanced case over how we should interpret the current second paragraph of GENDERID for an individual who had changed their name prior to becoming notable, but the articles that were published establishing her notability overwhelmingly included her former name. This was ultimately settled by an RfC and there has been no disruption or tendentious editing on that article in relation to the former name since the RfC was closed. The consensus from that RfC has been respected by all participants.
it's that any actual assessment of the !votes by anyone makes it patently obvious that those in support of something like this expect the criterion to actually be a criterion, not just vague and gameable lipservice to temporarily make the RfCs stop dragging on.The assessment of the !votes, by the closer of the RfC sub-question was that
From what I've read here, tightening up the baseline for including the prior name and/or outlining some of the occasions it may be included is likely to result in consensus language. My proposal makes this a baseline for inclusion, without mandating inclusion. Personally, based on the result of the previous RfCs on this issue, I do not think we should be mandating inclusion when the criteria is met, and instead should be providing criteria that sets a baseline for when inclusion is allowed. This allows for normal editorial consensus to form around inclusion or exclusion of the former name(s) based on the unique circumstances of each individual article. In some cases this may require an RfC, particularly for those cases that are nuanced or otherwise borderline to a baseline inclusion criteria, but in many cases a regular discussion on the talk page will likely suffice.
If you really, really think that the version as originally proposed is a step backward from the current language, then go ahead and oppose it, but it really is not.I would kindly suggest you re-read my !vote above. I support the version as proposed, and I also think it would be significantly improved by changing from
should be includedto
may be included. I'm not going to oppose it because it does not contain the exact language that I believe would be ideal, as that is a very "all or nothing, no compromises" approach that isn't helpful in this circumstance and really runs counter to your point about compromises. What I have done is propose a change in the hopes that it would convince other editors, one that I will happily advocate for making, as I have been doing in this discussion with yourself, while still nonetheless accepting the proposal as it was originally written. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:35, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not going to oppose it because it does not contain the exact language that I believe would be ideal: Glad to hear it, and sorry I misinterpreted you. Your defense of your alternative version has seemed to me like opposition to the original. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:24, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
the point I'm making is about a particular type of disruptionA particular type of disruption, that does not seem to have occurred in the last few years. If that type of disruption was ongoing, especially so if it is as serious as you're alleging, then it would be evident from both the list of discussions at MOS:GIDINFO, and also in the behavioural cases brought to WP:ANI and WP:AE. And again, I'm not saying it hasn't happened in the past, there is a reason why we have a CTOP for gender and sexuality and the prolonged development of this guideline, just that it's not happening now.
It doesn't matter what the closer of a previous discussion said; that's just one quasi-random person's attempt to nutshell a long and nuanced discussion.That is not what the closer of a discussion does. The role of the closer is to describe the consensus established in the discussion, not to insert their own commentary on it. When the closer said that setting a baseline for inclusion is likely to result in consensus, it is because that is what was said and evident from the discussion. We all know from experience that closers who insert their opinions into closes have their closes challenged and frequently overturned, because they do not represent what was said by the participants, and it is important to note that the closure of the May/June 2023 RfC was not challenged because of this. The closer's summary is useful in this regard, because it saves us from saying something like "per [list of editors here] in the previous RfC...".
Their views are not magically going to disappear, and they (plus others showing up with similar concerns) are the ones who have to be convinced.True. And we know from this that the reason why the proposal in June/July 2023 failed was because the barrier for inclusion in that version was ultimately seen as too high. The inclusion barrier for this proposal is, in my opinion, quite a bit lower than the June/July proposal because of that failure. However we also have to respect the consensus that the previous RfC's established, that
there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interestand that
that always including the prior name, or assuming the prior name is of encyclopedic importance is soundly rejected by the community. Because the proposal above assumes the prior name is of encyclopedic relevance, when the criteria are met, it is failing to respect the consensus from the first RfC. It's not significant enough that I would oppose the proposal, but it is significant enough that I think the language change is an important one to make.
Glad to hear it, and sorry I misinterpreted you.Thanks :) Sideswipe9th ( talk) 23:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Except it hasEvidence please, otherwise both the Sagan standard and Hitchen's razor apply.
The entire crux of the problem here is that your version sets up a "condition" that is not really a condition but yet another "maybe"How is that any different from WP:WEIGHT? Assessing the weight of a piece of content is not some formalised or prescribed test. It's a judgement call based on an analysis of the relevant sources, tempered by an emergent consensus. WP:VNOT tells us that
while all information must be verifiable for inclusion into an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article.One of our core content policies explicitly states that we do not mandate inclusion of content, consensus can always form around exclusion. But this proposal mandates inclusion of the former names when the criteria is met. That goes against the idea of a consensus forming for the exclusion of the content, except in the circumstance of WP:IAR. And I think we can all agree that where VNOT states that consensus can form around exclusion of content, it is not solely through an application of IAR. Why are we setting a standard for mandated inclusion in this guideline that we don't set in our core content policies?
returning to dwelling on what some old closer saidI'm returning to what the most recently expressed community wide consensus is. The role of the closer is to determine and describe the consensus that was reached in a discussion. If the closer states that there is a clear consensus for or against a point, it is only because that is what the community decided in the discussion. Conversely we call the situation where a closer imposes their view, over that of the community WP:SUPERVOTING, and when that occurs the relevant closes are typically undone and it is left to another editor to properly determine the consensus that has been reached. Of course consensus can change, but that requires another discussion or RfC on the same point to overturn it, whether in whole or in part.
in the original proposal here; "a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest" is encapsulated in the "should be included ... only if ..." ruleI fundamentally disagree. By saying the former name
should be included ... only if ...you are setting a criteria where it becomes automatically of encyclopedic interest. To fully respect that close, the inclusion of the former name has to be optional when the criteria are met. We have to set a baseline where inclusion is allowed, but not required. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 05:04, 15 February 2024 (UTC)