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Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
---|---|---|---|
Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing | none | ( orig. case) | 30 April 2024 |
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 4 | none | ( orig. case) | 13 May 2024 |
Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation | none | ( orig. case) | 13 May 2024 |
Clarification request: Extended confirmed restriction | none | none | 25 May 2024 |
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Initiated by Cunard at 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions
This was previously discussed in an amendment request closed on 20 April 2024 and on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests.
Background
Before the 2 August 2022 deletion topic ban, TenPoundHammer nominated numerous articles for proposed deletion and articles for deletion. He also redirected numerous articles in 2022. This link shows the last 500 redirects he did before the 2 August 2022 topic ban. If you search for the text "Tags: New redirect Reverted" on the page, there are 189 results. At least 189 of the redirects he did between April 2022 and July 2022 were reverted.
TenPoundHammer resumed the actions that led me to create Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1101#TenPoundHammer: prods and AfDs, which was closed as "This matter has been escalated to the arbitration committee, which has opened a full case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing on this and other related matters" and is cited as "June 2022 ANI" in this finding of fact.
Evidence
I started a talk page discussion with TenPoundHammer on 2 March 2024 about TenPoundHammer's blanking and redirecting of Monkey-ed Movies ( link), Skating's Next Star ( link), Monkey Life ( link), 2 Minute Drill (game show) ( link), and Monsters We Met ( link) for lacking sources. I was able to find sources for these articles so reverted the redirects and added the sources. I asked TenPoundHammer to stop blanking and redirecting articles as it was leading to notable topics no longer having articles.
TenPoundHammer continued to redirect articles on notable topics. Between 11 March 2024 and 16 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 18 articles. Of those 18 articles, 14 were about television series (a topic I focus on): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. After spending many hours searching for sources, I reverted all 14 redirects and added sources to all 14 articles. For several of the topics (such as Queer Eye for the Straight Girl and Dice: Undisputed), sources could be easily found with a Google search.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected three book articles (another topic I focus on): 1, 2, and 3. I reverted the three redirects and added book reviews.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 33 articles. Almost all of those redirects are in the music topic area which I do not focus on. I am concerned about the large number of redirects of topics that could be notable.
On 12 April 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected the television show Las Vegas Garden of Love with the edit summary "unsourced since 2010, time to lose it". I found sources for the article and reverted the redirect. I found two of the sources ( The New York Times and Variety) on the first page of a Google search for "Las Vegas Garden of Love ABC". TenPoundHammer previously prodded this same article in May 2022, and another editor contested that prodding ("contest PROD, nom nominated 200 articles in a single day so it's impossible a BEFORE was done for each").
Analysis
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle. Reviewing this volume of redirects consumes substantial editor time. The redirects are leading to numerous notable topics no longer having articles. The redirects prevent the topics from undergoing community review at AfD, which TenPoundHammer is topic banned from.
Blank-and-redirects get significantly less attention than prods and AfDs. Television-related prods and AfDs are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Television and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Article alerts. But blank-and-redirects are not listed anywhere.
It is unclear to me whether the existing topic ban includes proposing articles for deletion. I recommend that the topic ban be expanded to prohibit both proposing articles for deletion and blanking and redirecting pages since there is previous disruptive editing in both areas where he has prodded or redirected a large number of articles about notable topics. This remedy does something similar for a different editor in the same arbitration case.
Here are quotes from three arbitrators about the topic ban in the 2022 proposed decision regarding the redirects and and proposed deletion:
"... Missing PROD was not intentional on my part but that also can be added." ( link)
Cunard ( talk) 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles, so I don't know why that was brought up. (Similarly, I don't know what the ruling is on deprodding but it's historically not been an issue for me, and I personally don't think it would be fair to deny me a chance to say "hey, wait, I can fix this".) Speed has been an issue, as has blunt edit summaries when I redirect something. Lately when I feel there is little to no content to merge, I try to spell out my WP:BEFORE steps in the edit summary when I redirect. I also generally don't unlink the page, to save the hassle if someone like Cunard comes along to revert my redirect and dump in some sources. One reason I don't try to initiate merger discussion is because no matter how hard I try, no one ever seems to respond. Witness Talk:Regis_Philbin#Proposed_merge_of_Joy_Philbin_into_Regis_Philbin, which opened two months ago and has had several reminders, but not a single person has lifted a finger. How long is that discussion going to gather dust? "There is no deadline" doesn't mean "do nothing and hope the problem somehow fixes itself". If I am to be topic-banned from WP:BLARing, then how can I get some action going in merger discussions? Since again, every fucking time I try, nobody acts like I'm even there -- but then two seconds after I give in and finally merge/redirect the damn thing, someone swoops in to revert me. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 23:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
I am Involved here. TPH and I came up together on this project and occasionally ran into one another on country talk pages although it has been some time since we substantively interacted. I also have the utmost respect for Cunard's research at AfD in that they not only say "sources exist" but find and annotate them for participants to assess. This is especially helpful personally in east Asian language sourcing. That said, Cunard's case here is strong. TPH sees it as their duty to clean up the project, but I don't think their strong feelings are backed by our policies, nor is there a pressing need to remove this content. The project will not collapse and these are mostly not BLPs. If they are, someone else can handle it. I believe TPH's topic ban should be expanded to include BLAR which is a form of deletion. I have no strong feelings on PROD personally. Star Mississippi 01:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Suggest:
If editors cannot agree, the content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used, such as restoring the article and nominating the article for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion.Since TPH is topic banned from AfD, nominating contested BLARs for deletion is off the table. Jclemens ( talk) 20:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation.
While a WP:BEFORE search may be a good idea, it isn’t one that there is a consensus to require - and it is one that there shouldn’t be a consensus to require until we place similar requirements, retroactively applying, on the creation of articles.
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle.
If we’re going to apply FAIT to the deletion of articles we need to first - and retroactively - apply it to their creation, otherwise we will have a situation where massive numbers of articles have been created in violation of FAIT but are almost impossible to address.
Further, I’m not convinced this is a FAIT issue; addressing previous FAIT issues is not itself a FAIT violation, even if done at a similar scale and rate.
The arbitrators may like to consider the itemized wording of another user's topic ban (linked in Cunard's request) or TenPoundHammer topic banned (2) (did not pass). They both call out article redirection explicitly.
Regarding WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive974#TenPoundHammer (2018 community topic ban, linked by Maxim), its closing statement does not mention redirects, and the closer clarified them as excluded within a few weeks.
I found four related diffs – none involving redirects – in Special:PageHistory/Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Wikipedia community. They are consistent with WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing/Evidence#TenPoundHammer has been subject to ANI discussion on multiple occasions.
Redirecting a page is not deletion.
If other editors disagree with this blanking, its contents can be recovered from page history, as the article has not been deleted.
Flatscan ( talk) 04:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
is not required but considered good practice when the main concern is lack of notability or sources.but for this editor, with this past, the lack of BEFORE when some high quality sourcing was available strikes me as an issue. Barkeep49 ( talk) 04:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
There is a rough consensus of arbitrators that 1RR in the Palestine-Israel topic area refers to article content in the broad sense and so the talk page edits asked about here are not violations. Barkeep49 ( talk) 14:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by ScottishFinnishRadish at 12:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request Statement by ScottishFinnishRadishHere's a simple one. The 1RR general sanction says
Statement by NableezyStatement by BilledMammalMainly out of curiosity, would it apply to hidden text within the article? I’ve always assumed it would, but I can see an argument now that it wouldn’t. BilledMammal ( talk) 14:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by WeatherWriterThe incident referenced by ScottishFinnishRadish, which coincidentally involves BilledMammal is not the first times BilledMammal has been involved in a 1RR debate. Actually two weeks ago (23 April 2024), BilledMammal made two separate reversions ( [1] & [2]) six minute apart. When the editor who was reverted brought this up on BilledMammal’s talk page as a violation of 1RR, BilledMammal directly stated it was “not a violation”. I stalk BilledMammal’s talk page, so I provided my own thoughts on it and I echoed what ScottishFinnishRadish said: One revert per page unless it is direct vandalism that is clear. Further on this incident & my full TPS comment at User talk:BilledMammal#WP:1RR at Israel–Hamas war. Full clarification on whether that was a true violation of 1RR would also be helpful, as BilledMammal did not self-revert and brushed the incident off as not being a violation. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 14:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by CoretheappleI don't think it really matters one way or the other, as both the articles and the talk pages in this subject are a disaster area, a kind of administrator-free zone in which incivility is rampant and WP:BATTLEFIELD conduct is normal. 1RR or 3RR won't make any difference on the talk pages. I think the substance of editor behavior, such as involved editors shutting down RfCs as BilledMammal complained about on SFR's talk page, is far more consequential. We're really here to discuss a side issue of limited importance. Coretheapple ( talk) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Barkeep49 True, the talk pages are a disaster area as I said, and repetition is part of the problem. Editors' time was wasted a couple of months ago in a lengthy, immense move discussion on Israel-Hamas war that commenced within days of a previous one was concluded. So yes, that kind of thing happens and it is just part of a general free-for-all atmosphere on these talk pages that includes repetition and also includes RfCs being closed by involved editors. One has to look at the whole situation, which includes a lack of administrator oversight. and incivility being treated as a suggestion and not as a policy violation. I view incivility as a kind of "broken windows policing" kind of situation. Once that breaks down, things get completely out of hand. Coretheapple ( talk) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierPerhaps we should not stray too far from the principal issue here, do the restrictions apply only to article content, I am satisfied that question has been addressed, remaining issues can be dealt with elsewhere. Selfstudier ( talk) 16:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by kashmiriOur policies are straightforward:
@ M.Bitton, thanks for the quote from policy. I hope arbs will take a closer look at the policy wording and intent, and won't try to reinvent them here. — kashmīrī TALK 00:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by M.BittonI always assumed that it does. While The 1RR general sanction says Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Palestine-Israel articles 4: Clerk notes
Palestine-Israel articles 4: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
The
Manual of Style and
Article title policy are jointly authorized contentious topics. Speaking for myself, I have {{
Contentious topics/aware|mos}}
on my talk page, because I was (and am) aware that the MOS is a CTOP. I was unaware until earlier today that article titles are also a CTOP bundled with the MOS CTOP, even though I was technically aware of the article title CTOP.
It seems that others are also unaware (in the conventional sense) that article titles are CTOPICs; at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions it was about three days and 26KB of discussion before Guerrillero pointed out that article titles are already designated as a CTOP.
The MOS and article titles are related, but distinct, issues. I think they should be split into seperate CTOPs to reflect the fact that they are distinct issues. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
giv[ing] administrators an awful lot of discretion, I think that is the point of CTOPs: they give a lot of discretion to admins in areas that have historically been problematic. If admins abuse that discretion, that is a separate problem. We already have at least one CTOP ( infoboxes) which covers particular discussions about an article rather than the article itself. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Splitting the remedy is probably more trouble than it's worth. But while we're here: there hasn't been a logged sanction under this case since 2020, and that's probably because its scope is so narrow that most title- or MOS-related disruption isn't covered. Honestly there's a strong argument for just repealing it altogether, although the timing may not be right for that. An alternative would be to expand it to include RMs and the like (certainly there have been plenty of issues there), but that would give administrators an awful lot of discretion. The status quo of having the CTOP cover just the policy/guideline pages (which are often less contentious than the RMs) doesn't really make sense to me, though, and the lack of use suggests it's not doing much of value. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 03:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I would oppose splitting them, because the application of the MOS to article titles was a large part of the controversy that caused me to file the case in the first place. See also Comet Hale–Bopp. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Initiated by Ivanvector at 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
This request concerns the extended confirmed restriction and its applicability to complaints about user conduct within an affected topic.
A few days ago, editor BugGhost initiated a complaint at ANI regarding editor PicturePerfect666's conduct in discussions at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024 ( ANI permalink). The complaint was entirely focused on PicturePerfect666's allegedly tendentious conduct with regard to information critical of Israel's participation in the song contest, reflective of real-world criticism and activism regarding Israel's ongoing invasion of Palestine. BugGhost specifically asked that PicturePerfect666 be topic banned. Since BugGhost is not extendedconfirmed, and the complaint entirely concerns conduct within that topic, I advised that the complaint could not proceed, but made no comment on its merit.
My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them. On this I would like clarification, because I agree with some implicit criticism on my talk page that it is unreasonable.
I have listed Valereee as a party because she added the contentious topics notice to the talk page on 28 December 2023 ( diff), but she is not involved at all in the incidents described. PicturePerfect666 and BugGhost should be self-explanatory, and Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor who asked about "adopting" (my words) BugGhost's complaint.
-- Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
As the newbie here that this request is concerning, I'm not completely certain what kind of comment is expected of me here, so I apologise if anything I say is irrelevant or out of scope.
Before writing the AN/I, I looked at the ARBECR guidelines and didn't see any wording that said that my filing was against the spirit of it. My interpretation was that AN/I wasn't a page related to any specific contentious topic, and the filing I was making was about a specific user's conduct, not about the contentious topic itself, and so it wasn't against the spirit of the restriction. I still stand by that - I made sure that my filing did not in any way weigh in on arguments of the related contentious topic at hand, just the behaviour of the user as shown by their edits. My filing was neutral on the contentious topic itself, without editorialising and without any discussion of assumed motive behind the behaviour - only their edits were brought forward.
A consequence from this closure is that raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a contentious issue is harder than raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a non-contentious issue. If PicturePerfect666's disruptive behaviour on the Eurovision page was instead about a different topic (say, the Dutch entrant's surprise disqualification), then an AN/I filing from myself would have gone ahead, because that part of the page is not under the ARBECR. But seeing as they were disruptive about a contentious issue, they have been able to deflect my concerns - which seems counter to the ARBECR's aims of reducing disruption on contentious topics.
I think that the ARBECR is a good idea but can be hard to interpret, and has the ability to dismiss reasonable well intentioned actions. In my view, it can contradict the "assume good faith" mantra, as assumption that I filed the AN/I accurately and in good faith was "trumped" by the fact my edit count being too low. As I said on IvanVector's talk page, I spent a long amount of time compiling a long list of the user's disruptive behaviour for the filing, including very specific diffs to outline each example, and it being dismissed based wholly on my edit count was very demoralising. As backed up by Yoyo360 suggestion to "adopt" it, the AN/I has some merits worth considering. BugGhost 🎤 16:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't have much to add actually. I don't edit much on wiki:en, I'm mostly watching the talk pages of the Eurovision wikiproject to inspire me on the French-language counterpart (which is quasi inactive). I only come in when discussions have relevance for topics I also could add on wiki:fr and I noticed PP666 behaviour in the past weeks. I concur with everything BugGhost noted in their AN/I, they argued the case way better than I ever could. Noticing the topic had been closed due to the extended confirmed restrictions, I put myself forward to push the AN/I to be treated (as I now have the EC status on wiki:en) asking if it could be reopened in my name. I even have a few things to add to it but that's rather minor compared to the rest and off-topic here I think. Yoyo360 ( talk) 15:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them
That is my experience, see
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive356#Selfstudier "As a non-EC editor, you essentially have no standing to make edits related to the topic. You can make an edit request, but any other editor can remove it, even without providing reason. Further, making a complaint against another editor as a non-EC editor in the WP:ARBPIA area is fully not allowed."· So I would agree, it's only logical.
Selfstudier (
talk) 14:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
I think the closing was entirely appropriate and I agree with Selfstudier's statement. However, I think it is fair to say that the situation with respect to Yoyo360 at the time of the complaint posted by PicturePerfect666 at ANI is more complicated than "Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor". They were granted the privilege early (from an enwiki perspective) because, as the log says, they are a "10-year-old user with over 25,000 edits across all projects". This seems reasonable, pragmatic and it resolved the issue (although I'm sure imaginative people could cite it as yet another example of anti-Israel bias or rewarding complainers etc.), but for me, it's another reminder that none of us really know (based on evidence) the best way to implement/enforce EC restrictions in ARBPIA, how strictly they should be implemented, and that there is a lot of (costly) subjectivity and fuzziness involved at the moment. This is by no means a criticism or an endorsement of anything that happened in that thread by the way. I have no idea how to figure out how EC rules should work in practice to produce the best result. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 16:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
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Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
M.Bitton ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
There has been a long running dispute at Israel-Hamas war over the contents of the third paragraph of the lede; following multiple reverts and at least two discussions that failed to resolve the issue or prevent further reverts ( one, two) I opened an RfC. A few hours later, after three editors, including myself, had !voted in the RfC, Makeandtoss closed it. They had previously been involved in this specific dispute, both in the article ( example) and in the discussions linked above. This close also violated WP:TPO, as it involved striking the contributions of other editors without falling under the exceptions permitted by that policy.
I reverted this out of process close, but a few hours later M.Bitton reclosed it. M.Bitton wasn't involved in the immediate dispute, but has been involved with the article, and has expressed strong opinions in past RfC's on related content ( example).
This was a topic that was ripe for dispute resolution, with an RfC that had no issues sufficient to justify a premature close. Even if Makeandtoss and M.Bitton weren't involved it would have been a disruptive close, but it is particularly so because they were - by closing it early they have locked in a status quo that Makeandtoss explicitly favors and M.Bitton implicitly favors.
This was discussed previously at
ScottishFinnishRadish's talk page, and then further at
ARCA, where
Barkeep49 said they take a dim view of editors preventing this RfC
, and recommended bringing it here.
I also requested that M.Bitton revert their close; they declined to do so.
Makeandtoss:
disingenuous edit summaries, edit warring, and treating Wikipedia as a battleground
M.Bitton:
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton:
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
As evidenced by BilledMammal's own links above, there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four points, nor was there any attempt at conflict resolution that are outlined in WP:RFCBEFORE, which considers RFC a last option due to its time-consuming nature.
What I did was simply strike through the RFC, an action that was easily reverted, and I stopped and did not take it further. It would be disingenuous to claim that I had closed it, an irreversible action. Nevertheless, I will ensure to ask an uninvolved administrator to do this in upcoming incidents, which is indeed a better course of action.
That aside, this seems like an attempt to deflect from BilledMammal's own editing behavior, as they created the RFC in non-neutral phrasing without signing it, and then went ahead to vote with a signature, which creates a misleading first impression. Not to mention BilledMammal's edit warring by reverting other editors four times within the course of two hours relating to this incident: [3], [4], [5], [6].
I sincerely hope to see the day when editors are more interested in constructively contributing to Wikipedia than taking editors they disagree with to AE every time something happens. Makeandtoss ( talk) 10:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ScottishFinnishRadish: and @ Seraphimblade: First, thanks for the concerns. To add some context in response: I was blocked from that article on 14 October 2023, back when things were heated, and back when I did not completely understand what constitutes 1RR; I also wasn't able to appeal that 48 hour ban because it had passed while I was appealing. As for the second "sanction" on that article, I was warned for "slow motion edit warring" on that article backing in January 2024; because I had edited the same sentence multiple times in the lede over a few months according to developments on the talk page. Since then I have taken immense care to abide strictly by the guidelines at the article and across the topic.
My constructive and collaborative editing at the Israel-Hamas war article almost non-stop over the past seven months is evidenced by the fact that I am the third top editor by # of edits on the article having added 50k bytes and the 5th top editor on the talk page having added 70k bytes. Editing such a high-level and sensitive article while maintaining calm is not an easy task. Of course, striking through that RFC was a trout, which I have already pledged on SFR's talk page that it would not be repeated. The purpose of AE is to remedy behavior and not to punish editors. I really hope that a more balanced view of my editing is taken and that this minor mistake is not taken out of proportion. Makeandtoss ( talk) 09:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: I really appreciate the chance to present my perspective, and @ ScottishFinnishRadish:'s comment that shows their genuine dedication to handling this request appropriately.
First, note that the Israel-Hamas war article sees dozens of edits every day, and numerous discussions. Over the course of months this accumulates and gets inevitably confusing for everyone, especially as the ideas or edits are sometimes discussed in different phrasings or closely resemble one another.
The fact that I have created or engaged in these discussions shows my good faith and collaborative approach. In summary, this unfortunate incident took place in a sensitive RFC opened controversially and in a sensitive and highly active article. I accordingly made a hasty decision, to which I apologize about and vow that it would not be repeated. A lot of lessons learnt here: to specifically never strike through or remove any RFC; and more generally, to demonstrate greater patience, to put in greater efforts to examine similar situations, and to never act in haste.
As for the separate older incident with Number57 on 1 January, I did not say in the edit summary that no discussion had taken place, but that the RFC went against WP:RFCBEFORE, which states that if a dispute is between two editors they should seek WP:Third opinion first. After I removed the RFC, another third editor agreed with Number57's edit and disagreed with mine, and I stopped and did not take the issue further. Again, I was only made aware of the issues surrounding removing an RFC only after the recent incident. Makeandtoss ( talk) 23:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
I already explained the close when asked by ScottishFinnishRadish, so I won't repeat it here. I also wasn't involved in any of the discussions that led to RfC. Frankly, this report raises more questions than answers: if BilledMammal was really interested in SFR's advice, then why did they ignore it and why did they ignore the question that SFR asked them (about how to best formulate the RFC)? Someone who's starting a RfC for the benefit of the project would have no issue with what SFR suggested (working with others), but I guess that wasn't what they were after. Approaching me four days later with an ultimatum doesn't strike me as very constructive, especially considering the fact that I chose not to report them for violating 1RR multiples times. Bringing it to AE after raising it with SFR is just plain forum shopping. M.Bitton ( talk) 11:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I dont think it was a good idea to shut down the RFC. But on the process, if a user is blocked from a page for edit-warring, are they allowed to pursue dispute resolution related to that page while blocked? Or is that not similar to an editor violating a topic ban by making a report about the topic? nableezy - 13:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
My sole contribution to the RFC was to add the comment "+1. Not signed either." to Makeandtoss rejection of it, the RFCbefore being unspecified as well as a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments that had not produced the desired outcome from the openers perspective, awkwardly lumped together in a single RFC. I sympathize with the frustration that led to its untimely closure and frankly think that complainant should devote some effort to figuring out ways to spend less time at this board. Selfstudier ( talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Seems it can't be bothWell, it can, I speak as someone familiar with the article and its history, what I mean is that those prior discussions were nowhere apparent at the RFC or even on the talk page, it being usual to specify an RFCbefore detailing them. I can try to locate the multiplicity of them in the talk page archives if desired, I assume OP knows where they are? Selfstudier ( talk) 14:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion?That's the point, it is valid and that's why editors taking part in an RFC need to know about those discussions, generally I would link them as part of an RFC(before) Not all editors are aware of prior discussions of which there may have been several. Selfstudier ( talk) 15:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Would a better, less inflammatory way to handle this have been pointing out those earlier discussions in the RFC discussion or bringing up that you believe they should be linked on BMs talk page rather than closing the RM or modifying the RFC statement?From where I'm sitting, which is quite frequently on the opposite side of the table from complainant, that thought is one step removed from what I see as the actual source of the problem, namely the opening of that particular RFC in that particular way in the first instance, then persisting with it when three editors came out strongly against the process. I would not personally have closed out the RFC but I don't disagree with it either, I think complainant should have done so themselves and we wouldn't be here, not for this at any rate. Selfstudier ( talk) 18:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
While BM is technically correct that an RfC does not have to be signed, when one of the principle disputants on a topic starts an RfC with their own preferences highlighted it is at least a very bad look if they refuse to have their name on it. And I mean "refuse", since BM twice deleted a signature that was added using {{unsigned}}. If there is a positive explanation for that I didn't manage to think of it. Zero talk 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Just saying... WP:Signatures says "Typing five tildes will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding your signature". So, while it is true that five tildes are permitted in an RfC, it is arguable whether that counts as a signature for the purposes of TPO. Zero talk 01:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
In this instance I am uninvolved in the RfC (and am largely uninvolved in ARBPIA). I wanted to draw attention to BilledMammal's using their own !vote in their own RfC as evidence that it should remain open, which I take to be a rather peculiar argument. Of the other two !votes, one largely resisted the way the RfC was framed, while the other did accept the framing but only answered two of the four RfC questions.
So to me, BM's argument amounts to an assertion that the way it is framed makes sense to them (though others evidently disagree) and that they have voted in it therefore it must stay open. To insist on this, in spite of the lack of RFCBEFORE and quite evident flaws in the RfC's construction, strikes me as an attempted deployment of bureaucratic proceduralism unworthy of BM or of enwiki in general.
To then "seek justice against one's enemies" (Plato, not a wikipedian) in this forum, after having been banned temporarily from the Talk page in question, seems to me like a failure of judgement given the overwhelming lack of support for BM's framing of the RfC in the first place. The only likely outcome of that RfC, given the responses to it on Talk and on SFR's Talk, was a "malformed RfC" outcome, and I don't see how devoting photons and editors' time to hashing out that outcome would have served anything but BURO. Newimpartial ( talk) 14:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
disingenuous. I read "points" in the summary as meaning "proposals" and I don't see how any of the proposals received an appropriate RFCBEFORE. For any that did, it seems to me that it was up to the person filing the RfC to document the BEFORE, in any case, so the interpretation that "these points/proposals did not receive a prior discussion that satisfies RFCBEFORE" strikes me as entirely reasonable even if others read the situation differently. I certainly don't see anything "disingenuous" about the summary, even though of course nobody INVOLVED ought to he closing anyone's RfC but their own. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't have a view on this particular situation, but for context, I thought it would be useful to flag up that I have also experienced Makeandtoss shutting down an RfC after others have commented (see here). Number 5 7 17:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Closing an RfP this way seems rather disruptive (per WP:RFC, An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be
). Usually users unhappy with an RfC would !vote Bad RfC and explain their reasoning. Why couldn't it have been done in this case?
Alaexis
¿question? 21:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
It was a complex RFC from the get-go, and seemingly not prompted by sufficiently rigorous prior discussion so as to actually warrant such a complicated RFC (the only linked discussions are a couple that appear to have simply petered out). RFCs are by nature time consuming for the community, and can also hamstring routine discussion and editing but putting a freeze on any topic covered by the RFC until complete. It is not in the project's interest to have a proliferation of badly scripted, overly complex RFCs floating around, and closing such examples down is quite sensible from a WP:NOTBURO perspective. There aren't many other avenues open for nipping bad RFCs in the bud. If everyone just attends and votes "bad RFC" then that's time-consuming participation. Alternatively, editors could try to petition the admin noticeboard for an admin to strictly enforce WP:RFCBEFORE, but if this is a routine action, it's not one that I've observed, even though WP:RFCBEFORE is in principle quite strict and, one might think, enforceable. This close was a no-nonsense attempt to strictly adhere to WP:RFCBEFORE, and perhaps recourse to the admin board would have been a better option, but the intentions appear reasonable. It feels like the best way to deal with an RFC that fails WP:RFCBEFORE is actually a bit of a grey area, and one that perhaps needs better clearing up. Iskandar323 ( talk) 02:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I agree that RFCs shouldn't be closed so early by involved editors. However, on seeing the closure, I was glad it helped us avoid another heated discussion on that very Talk page that was extremely unlikely to produce anything resembling consensus. BilledMammal was right to write that perceptions of the editor who opened the RfC may influence how editors perceive the RfC
, and so given their rather contentious editing history in Palestine-related topics, they decided not not to sign their name. Yet we were at it again. When going through the questions, I was disappointed (but not surprised) to find out how POV the structure was – it concerned adding inline attribution to the internationally accepted numbers of Palestinian victims of the Israeli invasion (inline attribution is not normally necessary and suggests an opinion, not a fact – our policy requires it
if there is a disagreement between sources
) or contrasting these numbers with Israeli-provided numbers of supposedly killed militants, even though the latter are widely considered unreliable and few media carry them. Judging from the past discussion history on that article and the POV split of the most active editors, this RfC was not going to end up in a consensus.
So, as much as the close was procedurally wrong, I'm of the view that it ultimately befitted that article and the wider readership. A trout for everyone, as Valereee wrote, and move on. — kashmīrī TALK 22:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Lots of verbiage above but it's a simple issue. RfCs are not to be closed by involved editors. Involved editors who do so should get sanctioned, for this is a contentious topic area and there needs to be extra efforts made to enforce the rules, and I don't mean "trout slaps." Coretheapple ( talk) 22:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ScottishFinnishRadish: and @ Seraphimblade: as you consider sanctions, I'd like to add that Makeandtoss is exceptionally productive. They are one of the very few users I see regularly creating new articles or significantly expanding existing ones in the Arab-Israeli conflict area. They have an impressive User:Makeandtoss/DYK record (many of them in the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area), with some DYKs of articles they created still active (eg Killing of David Ben Avraham). They helped promote articles in this topic area to GA status (eg Battle of Karameh, Black September, Hussein of Jordan etc). Just last month, they wrote the entire History of Palestinian journalism article. I've also seen them create useful stubs (eg Mohammad Hyasat of the Jordanian Air Force, who helped defend Israel from Iranian attacks). VR (Please ping on reply) 11:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four pointsor was this
a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments. Seems it can't be both. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
what I mean is that those prior discussions, so there was prior in-depth discussion? Those talk pages are fast moving, and the archives are already huge. If the discussion happened a couple months ago, does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion? ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
If a signature violates the guidelines for signatures, or is an attempt to fake a signature, you may edit the signature to the standard form with correct informationand TPO is clear that editors may
...not modify the signature on others' posts for any other reason.Barkeep49 ( talk) 14:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Should the number of militants that Israel has stated they have killed be included? Should we describe the number of women and children killed as...with a summary of
no discussion has taken place about these points.
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Removing referenced statements & replacing with
original research
Gaza Health Ministry
1.
15:12, 13 May 2024
Rafah offensive
2.
09:55, 9 May 2024
General 1RR violations:
Rafah offensive
1.
09:55, 9 May 2024 - Referenced sentence removed
Palestinian political violence
2.
17:19, 8 May 2024 - User revert
War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war
3.
08.13, 25 April 2024 - Referenced sentence removed
Gaza–Israel conflict
4.
17:56, 24 April 2024 - User revert
Zionism
5.
21:05, 21 April 2024 - User revert
Israel and apartheid
6.
15:38, 21 April 2024 - User revert
Palestinian political violence
7.
14:35, 21 April 2024 - User revert
2024 Israeli strikes on Iran
8.
16:58, 19 April 2024 - User revert
9.
09:25, 19 April 2024 - Reverted to a previous version
10.
08:25, 19 April 2024 - Sentence removed without edit summary
I typically don't mind trivial 1RR violations if they were made in good faith. However, it struck me that the user had made hundreds of copy edits, from 20 to 31 March 2024, spamming categories to articles, in order to pass the 500 edit requirement for extended confirmed protection. Subsequently, they solely began editing controversial ECP articles in an aggressive manner. Additionally, it concerns me that the user was previously blocked for not disclosing their paid editing. Ecrusized ( talk) 18:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Hi, everyone My name is Gal, Gal the teacher (in Hebrew with English letters it comes out GALAMORE). I entered Wikipedia because I wanted to write about technology, I wrote the article on Perplexity.ai (which received 568,902 views so far!!), after I wrote about a few more high-tech companies I was temporarily blocked and warned not to engage in business matters probably for fear of receiving money for it. Almost every morning, before I start teaching, I go to Wikipedia to edit and I enjoy it very much. I am Israeli, so the Israel related topics interest me. If it is relevant, politically, in Israel I believe in peace with our neighbors and want an end to wars. When I see something that is biased, I try to balance it and bring sources from both sides. Even if there is an Israeli editor who makes claims that are "in favor of Israel" but are not substantiated, I will correct it - because I truly believe in balanced coverage of topics. I am not obssessive to my edits, I just enjoy adding information and I think it is productive to humanity.
On this occasion, may I ask where and when can I request that the prohibition to write on tech companies be removed? Galamore ( talk) 07:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
In addition, the offensive resulted in the temporary closure of the Kerem Shalom and Rafah crossings, further exacerbating the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
Kerem Shalom was closed due to the Hamas attacks, and now reopened, this is wrong and outdated.
But Israel closed the Kerem Shalom crossing after a Hamas attack on Sunday killed four soldiers in the area, then mounted an incursion on Tuesday that closed the Rafah crossing along the border with Egypt.
The GHM's casualty reports have received significant attention during the course of the Gaza–Israel conflict. GHM's casualty reports are considered credible by two scientific studies published in The Lancet.
The casualty reports issued by the GHM during the Israel–Hamas war have been subject to significant scrutiny. While some advocate for their accuracy, others cast doubt on their reliability.
Warned by another user about 1RR violation on 10:45, 14 April 2024. Did not self-revert.
the latest change seems to come from virtually inexperienced editors, Galamore and GidiD with a heavy Israeli bias
OP doesn't seem to know what 1RR means. Zero talk 09:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
For the sake of completeness, see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Galamore, gaming the system Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
And the discussion Talk:Israel–Hamas war#UN changes reported casualty figures. Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
No action taken at this time as the matter is already being discussed at ANI. There is no prejudice to raising this issue here again if the ANI discussion ends without resolution of the matter, but we shouldn't have multiple threads open on the same issue at the same time. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Unnamed anon
The user originally started by edit warring over My Hero Academia and was warned by multiple editors, which accounts for their first ~700 edits across multiple forums, noticeboards, and talk pages. [15] I believe their contribution record, comments from others at the thread at ANI they started to complain about my behavior where they freely admit to having a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, and their talk page shows they have problems with edit warring and strong feelings in general. I believe the evidence above shows their disruption is particularly heightened in the GENSEX topic area, despite claiming to avoid it. This has been an issue for years. Their conduct at WP:No queerphobia and its associated MFD has been particularly disruptive. I made comments I regret and struck or clarified in response to their latest edits to the essay and for the record would like to apologize for my incivility towards him, but I believe he is still disruptive to the topic area (regardless of whether or not his views are queerphobic), he has a problematic tendency to group editors by LGBT status, and a TBAN may be necessary. At the minimum, a page block from WP:No queerphobes. The other edits to media articles and their edit-warring at Reverse racism and related pages and categories? I leave those to others to interpret. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 21:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Notified Unnamed anon 18 May 2024 Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 21:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Discussion concerning Unnamed anonStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Unnamed anon13-17 all relate to the same page. If you made this AE yesterday, I'd gladly be blocked from editing that specific essay if you reported me yesterday, but I had just come to an agreement with Licks-rocks, so it's up to others if they want me to no longer edit that page. I want to stress that I didn't actually agree with 16, but I was following advice from another Non-Endorser, Ficaia. 1-6 plus 8 all refer to the same page as well, and that was because Utada still used "she" pronouns in many then-current sources, before her social media outright listed she/they. I wasn't the only editor arguing this, nor was I the most prominent. That leaves five unique pages. The Simpsons AfD (12) was out of redundancy concerns, as all of the characters either had their own page already or were non-notable gag characters. The Family Guy edit (11) was because I was removing vandalism where the transphobia page was wrongly linked several times. The JK Rowling RfC (7) was because I felt that people put undue weight on recent news. For 9, at the time I didn't know people considered asexuals as LGBT (I still don't understand, but I'm no longer warring over it). I had no excuse for my phrases in 9, 3 and 4, but my views have changed in those three years. I don't group editors over their sexuality anymore unless there's a clear pattern where one side is mostly openly LGBT and the other side isn't. 10 was me seeing what I thought was original research, as I specifically remembered reading that Stranger Things interview. As for the edit war when I started my account, that was exasperation at constantly reverting to a preferred version, in spite of multiple users agreeing that a lot of the content was wrongly removed, being considered "not warring", as well as an name-calling from the other user in said edit war, who didn't contribute to the discussion after said incivility. Once Serial Number and I directly interacted for the first time in years when he complained about me at ANI, he submitted misrepresented evidence against me; in most of the diffs in his comment where I supposedly can't listen to other users, I had come to agreements with said users soon after( example), which he conveniently left out. As JXpG suggested, I'd like a two-way interaction ban between me and YFNS; SN54129 as well, because I can't trust that the latter will criticize me in good faith. In both of these cases, it's clear that I don't react well when somebody is being blatantly uncivil towards me, as both users have shown. My reactions are probably inappropriate, but they're not unwarranted since the other party is usually uncivil first, which is why I think my Ibans should be two-way.
@ Seraphimblade: I think the discussion should be redirected here rather than ANI, as my grievances with one user I initially reported have seceded, while another user conduct dispute was reignited after years of inactivity because of the ANI discussion. I think the ANI discussion should close and discussion redirected here due to the user report switch. I'll also reiterate than I'm volunteering myself for two two-way interaction bans. If YFNS and SN54129 both agree with two-way interaction bans, then this case can be ended fairly easily. Unnamed anon ( talk) 01:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by JPxGI suppose I am involved here because I commented at the AN/I thread about these same diffs running concurrently to this AE request ( Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist_and_User:Licks-rocks_civility_concerns). I also commented at the MfD for this essay, where I said it ought to be userfied (which it apparently now has been). This AE request feels like basically the same thing as the AN/I thread, which is "one of the participants in a vicious talk page argument wants the other person gone". The diffs in the post opening this thread go back three years, which, well -- if you have to go back three whole years to find stuff to make a case, I think the case might not be that strong. They are also presented in the worst context possible: e.g. the thing about recommending that YFNS remove "friendly" from her name was not some random remark, it was made in the context of a several-week-long discussion in which YFNS was
saying stuff like " It may be warranted to note that YFNS (under a previous username) was at one point subject to a WP:GENSEX topic ban at AN ( Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1121#Advocacy_editing_by_User:TheTranarchist), where CaptainEek's closing note was:
Of course, as with many things related to contentious political topics, this thread was opened by a now-blocked sock, but the consensus was nonetheless pretty consistent that there was a pattern of disruption. It should also be noted in the interest of fairness that this restriction was appealed (first at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive352#TheTranarchist_GENSEX_TBAN_Appeal and later, successfully, at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive356#TheTranarchist_Appeal, with topic-based 1RR and 0RR restrictions). Now, while we're on the subject of "reports don't need to be made in good faith for the issues they mention to be serious and worth action" -- this may well be true here, and UA is acting pretty out-of-pocket. I think that something in the general shape of a two-way interaction ban may be appropriate here. I am not an "AE guy" so I cannot say for certain what's the most likely to actually have a meaningful positive impact.
Statement by Serial Number 54129Since I have been name checked, can I ask admins to request examples of the incivility I have used against User Anon. Without diffs... well, of course they're aspersions. ——Serial Number 54129 22:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC) anon|talk]]) 23:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Unnamed anon
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Background evidence: 18 May 2024 AtikaAtikawa knows how to post an edit request
Various comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war ( permalink)
Creation of Israel–Palestine conflict userboxes
Polemicizing in MfDs for the aforementioned userboxes:
The editor has eight mainspace edits. All of their mainspace edits have been made between January and September 2020. The editor has 177 total edits, of which 31.1% have been deleted. 69.7% of their live edits have been to userspace. The user is generally inactive as an editor of Wikipedia, but has increased activity probably due to interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict, but instead of resuming normal editorial activity, which would mean making edit requests for a while, the activity has been predominantly polemical. Therefore, seeing all of this user's edits in total, the user is WP:NOTHERE.
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
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Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
As for the comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war. I acknowledge that I failed at understanding ECR limitations when I made them; A rookie mistake that stems from the fact that I just started having interest in editing Wikipedia, and I'm still familiarising myself with the rules. In fact I was warned and I did obey. Briefly, I acknowledge my mistake here.
As for the userboxes. I hope that you take into consideration my arguments in their MfD entries. Basically, I think that Alalch E. is assuming bad faith since he is accusing me of endorsing violence and deeming atrocities as just with no basis, and I think that I actually clarified that through the documentation that the filer deemed as "apologia for violence including atrocities against civilians" when it is just a statement of a viewpoint, that is against violence from both sides.
As for the polemical comments. They were basically just answers to comments that were polemical themselves rather than referring clearly to policies that I did break. I totally understands that two wrongs don't make a right, but I'm really open to advices that concern how could I have handled this better.
As stated above, I'm well aware that I'm unexperienced, and I hope that my niche interest in the Arab-Israeli conflict will not be somehow held against me, rather I hope for whatever answer I'll get to this to contain referrals to the rules I broke in order to be mindful to them from now on.
I acknowledge that my behaviour was suboptimal, and I acknowledge that it did stem from a potential lack of understanding the rules from my part, and I welcome any decision that comes from your part with the hope that it will serve the noble goal of making me a better editor with a better service to the encyclopedia rather than punishment just for the sake of it.— Yours Truly, ⚑ AtikaAtikawa 15:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Technical picky point, defendant is non EC and not permitted to make statements here (or anywhere, really). An admin could/should deal with this? Selfstudier ( talk) 15:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Seconding Selfstudier here - the defendant is several hundred edits short of XC status anyways, so this should be a fairly textbook warning (or TBAN) for violating the ARBPIA XC restriction rather than a drawn-out AE case. The Kip ( contribs) 16:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
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Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing | none | ( orig. case) | 30 April 2024 |
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Initiated by Cunard at 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions
This was previously discussed in an amendment request closed on 20 April 2024 and on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests.
Background
Before the 2 August 2022 deletion topic ban, TenPoundHammer nominated numerous articles for proposed deletion and articles for deletion. He also redirected numerous articles in 2022. This link shows the last 500 redirects he did before the 2 August 2022 topic ban. If you search for the text "Tags: New redirect Reverted" on the page, there are 189 results. At least 189 of the redirects he did between April 2022 and July 2022 were reverted.
TenPoundHammer resumed the actions that led me to create Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1101#TenPoundHammer: prods and AfDs, which was closed as "This matter has been escalated to the arbitration committee, which has opened a full case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing on this and other related matters" and is cited as "June 2022 ANI" in this finding of fact.
Evidence
I started a talk page discussion with TenPoundHammer on 2 March 2024 about TenPoundHammer's blanking and redirecting of Monkey-ed Movies ( link), Skating's Next Star ( link), Monkey Life ( link), 2 Minute Drill (game show) ( link), and Monsters We Met ( link) for lacking sources. I was able to find sources for these articles so reverted the redirects and added the sources. I asked TenPoundHammer to stop blanking and redirecting articles as it was leading to notable topics no longer having articles.
TenPoundHammer continued to redirect articles on notable topics. Between 11 March 2024 and 16 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 18 articles. Of those 18 articles, 14 were about television series (a topic I focus on): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. After spending many hours searching for sources, I reverted all 14 redirects and added sources to all 14 articles. For several of the topics (such as Queer Eye for the Straight Girl and Dice: Undisputed), sources could be easily found with a Google search.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected three book articles (another topic I focus on): 1, 2, and 3. I reverted the three redirects and added book reviews.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 33 articles. Almost all of those redirects are in the music topic area which I do not focus on. I am concerned about the large number of redirects of topics that could be notable.
On 12 April 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected the television show Las Vegas Garden of Love with the edit summary "unsourced since 2010, time to lose it". I found sources for the article and reverted the redirect. I found two of the sources ( The New York Times and Variety) on the first page of a Google search for "Las Vegas Garden of Love ABC". TenPoundHammer previously prodded this same article in May 2022, and another editor contested that prodding ("contest PROD, nom nominated 200 articles in a single day so it's impossible a BEFORE was done for each").
Analysis
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle. Reviewing this volume of redirects consumes substantial editor time. The redirects are leading to numerous notable topics no longer having articles. The redirects prevent the topics from undergoing community review at AfD, which TenPoundHammer is topic banned from.
Blank-and-redirects get significantly less attention than prods and AfDs. Television-related prods and AfDs are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Television and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Article alerts. But blank-and-redirects are not listed anywhere.
It is unclear to me whether the existing topic ban includes proposing articles for deletion. I recommend that the topic ban be expanded to prohibit both proposing articles for deletion and blanking and redirecting pages since there is previous disruptive editing in both areas where he has prodded or redirected a large number of articles about notable topics. This remedy does something similar for a different editor in the same arbitration case.
Here are quotes from three arbitrators about the topic ban in the 2022 proposed decision regarding the redirects and and proposed deletion:
"... Missing PROD was not intentional on my part but that also can be added." ( link)
Cunard ( talk) 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles, so I don't know why that was brought up. (Similarly, I don't know what the ruling is on deprodding but it's historically not been an issue for me, and I personally don't think it would be fair to deny me a chance to say "hey, wait, I can fix this".) Speed has been an issue, as has blunt edit summaries when I redirect something. Lately when I feel there is little to no content to merge, I try to spell out my WP:BEFORE steps in the edit summary when I redirect. I also generally don't unlink the page, to save the hassle if someone like Cunard comes along to revert my redirect and dump in some sources. One reason I don't try to initiate merger discussion is because no matter how hard I try, no one ever seems to respond. Witness Talk:Regis_Philbin#Proposed_merge_of_Joy_Philbin_into_Regis_Philbin, which opened two months ago and has had several reminders, but not a single person has lifted a finger. How long is that discussion going to gather dust? "There is no deadline" doesn't mean "do nothing and hope the problem somehow fixes itself". If I am to be topic-banned from WP:BLARing, then how can I get some action going in merger discussions? Since again, every fucking time I try, nobody acts like I'm even there -- but then two seconds after I give in and finally merge/redirect the damn thing, someone swoops in to revert me. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 23:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
I am Involved here. TPH and I came up together on this project and occasionally ran into one another on country talk pages although it has been some time since we substantively interacted. I also have the utmost respect for Cunard's research at AfD in that they not only say "sources exist" but find and annotate them for participants to assess. This is especially helpful personally in east Asian language sourcing. That said, Cunard's case here is strong. TPH sees it as their duty to clean up the project, but I don't think their strong feelings are backed by our policies, nor is there a pressing need to remove this content. The project will not collapse and these are mostly not BLPs. If they are, someone else can handle it. I believe TPH's topic ban should be expanded to include BLAR which is a form of deletion. I have no strong feelings on PROD personally. Star Mississippi 01:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Suggest:
If editors cannot agree, the content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used, such as restoring the article and nominating the article for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion.Since TPH is topic banned from AfD, nominating contested BLARs for deletion is off the table. Jclemens ( talk) 20:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation.
While a WP:BEFORE search may be a good idea, it isn’t one that there is a consensus to require - and it is one that there shouldn’t be a consensus to require until we place similar requirements, retroactively applying, on the creation of articles.
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle.
If we’re going to apply FAIT to the deletion of articles we need to first - and retroactively - apply it to their creation, otherwise we will have a situation where massive numbers of articles have been created in violation of FAIT but are almost impossible to address.
Further, I’m not convinced this is a FAIT issue; addressing previous FAIT issues is not itself a FAIT violation, even if done at a similar scale and rate.
The arbitrators may like to consider the itemized wording of another user's topic ban (linked in Cunard's request) or TenPoundHammer topic banned (2) (did not pass). They both call out article redirection explicitly.
Regarding WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive974#TenPoundHammer (2018 community topic ban, linked by Maxim), its closing statement does not mention redirects, and the closer clarified them as excluded within a few weeks.
I found four related diffs – none involving redirects – in Special:PageHistory/Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Wikipedia community. They are consistent with WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing/Evidence#TenPoundHammer has been subject to ANI discussion on multiple occasions.
Redirecting a page is not deletion.
If other editors disagree with this blanking, its contents can be recovered from page history, as the article has not been deleted.
Flatscan ( talk) 04:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
is not required but considered good practice when the main concern is lack of notability or sources.but for this editor, with this past, the lack of BEFORE when some high quality sourcing was available strikes me as an issue. Barkeep49 ( talk) 04:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
There is a rough consensus of arbitrators that 1RR in the Palestine-Israel topic area refers to article content in the broad sense and so the talk page edits asked about here are not violations. Barkeep49 ( talk) 14:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by ScottishFinnishRadish at 12:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request Statement by ScottishFinnishRadishHere's a simple one. The 1RR general sanction says
Statement by NableezyStatement by BilledMammalMainly out of curiosity, would it apply to hidden text within the article? I’ve always assumed it would, but I can see an argument now that it wouldn’t. BilledMammal ( talk) 14:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Statement by WeatherWriterThe incident referenced by ScottishFinnishRadish, which coincidentally involves BilledMammal is not the first times BilledMammal has been involved in a 1RR debate. Actually two weeks ago (23 April 2024), BilledMammal made two separate reversions ( [1] & [2]) six minute apart. When the editor who was reverted brought this up on BilledMammal’s talk page as a violation of 1RR, BilledMammal directly stated it was “not a violation”. I stalk BilledMammal’s talk page, so I provided my own thoughts on it and I echoed what ScottishFinnishRadish said: One revert per page unless it is direct vandalism that is clear. Further on this incident & my full TPS comment at User talk:BilledMammal#WP:1RR at Israel–Hamas war. Full clarification on whether that was a true violation of 1RR would also be helpful, as BilledMammal did not self-revert and brushed the incident off as not being a violation. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 14:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by CoretheappleI don't think it really matters one way or the other, as both the articles and the talk pages in this subject are a disaster area, a kind of administrator-free zone in which incivility is rampant and WP:BATTLEFIELD conduct is normal. 1RR or 3RR won't make any difference on the talk pages. I think the substance of editor behavior, such as involved editors shutting down RfCs as BilledMammal complained about on SFR's talk page, is far more consequential. We're really here to discuss a side issue of limited importance. Coretheapple ( talk) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Barkeep49 True, the talk pages are a disaster area as I said, and repetition is part of the problem. Editors' time was wasted a couple of months ago in a lengthy, immense move discussion on Israel-Hamas war that commenced within days of a previous one was concluded. So yes, that kind of thing happens and it is just part of a general free-for-all atmosphere on these talk pages that includes repetition and also includes RfCs being closed by involved editors. One has to look at the whole situation, which includes a lack of administrator oversight. and incivility being treated as a suggestion and not as a policy violation. I view incivility as a kind of "broken windows policing" kind of situation. Once that breaks down, things get completely out of hand. Coretheapple ( talk) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierPerhaps we should not stray too far from the principal issue here, do the restrictions apply only to article content, I am satisfied that question has been addressed, remaining issues can be dealt with elsewhere. Selfstudier ( talk) 16:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by kashmiriOur policies are straightforward:
@ M.Bitton, thanks for the quote from policy. I hope arbs will take a closer look at the policy wording and intent, and won't try to reinvent them here. — kashmīrī TALK 00:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by M.BittonI always assumed that it does. While The 1RR general sanction says Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Palestine-Israel articles 4: Clerk notes
Palestine-Israel articles 4: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
The
Manual of Style and
Article title policy are jointly authorized contentious topics. Speaking for myself, I have {{
Contentious topics/aware|mos}}
on my talk page, because I was (and am) aware that the MOS is a CTOP. I was unaware until earlier today that article titles are also a CTOP bundled with the MOS CTOP, even though I was technically aware of the article title CTOP.
It seems that others are also unaware (in the conventional sense) that article titles are CTOPICs; at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions it was about three days and 26KB of discussion before Guerrillero pointed out that article titles are already designated as a CTOP.
The MOS and article titles are related, but distinct, issues. I think they should be split into seperate CTOPs to reflect the fact that they are distinct issues. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
giv[ing] administrators an awful lot of discretion, I think that is the point of CTOPs: they give a lot of discretion to admins in areas that have historically been problematic. If admins abuse that discretion, that is a separate problem. We already have at least one CTOP ( infoboxes) which covers particular discussions about an article rather than the article itself. House Blaster ( talk · he/him) 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Splitting the remedy is probably more trouble than it's worth. But while we're here: there hasn't been a logged sanction under this case since 2020, and that's probably because its scope is so narrow that most title- or MOS-related disruption isn't covered. Honestly there's a strong argument for just repealing it altogether, although the timing may not be right for that. An alternative would be to expand it to include RMs and the like (certainly there have been plenty of issues there), but that would give administrators an awful lot of discretion. The status quo of having the CTOP cover just the policy/guideline pages (which are often less contentious than the RMs) doesn't really make sense to me, though, and the lack of use suggests it's not doing much of value. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 03:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I would oppose splitting them, because the application of the MOS to article titles was a large part of the controversy that caused me to file the case in the first place. See also Comet Hale–Bopp. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Initiated by Ivanvector at 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
This request concerns the extended confirmed restriction and its applicability to complaints about user conduct within an affected topic.
A few days ago, editor BugGhost initiated a complaint at ANI regarding editor PicturePerfect666's conduct in discussions at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024 ( ANI permalink). The complaint was entirely focused on PicturePerfect666's allegedly tendentious conduct with regard to information critical of Israel's participation in the song contest, reflective of real-world criticism and activism regarding Israel's ongoing invasion of Palestine. BugGhost specifically asked that PicturePerfect666 be topic banned. Since BugGhost is not extendedconfirmed, and the complaint entirely concerns conduct within that topic, I advised that the complaint could not proceed, but made no comment on its merit.
My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them. On this I would like clarification, because I agree with some implicit criticism on my talk page that it is unreasonable.
I have listed Valereee as a party because she added the contentious topics notice to the talk page on 28 December 2023 ( diff), but she is not involved at all in the incidents described. PicturePerfect666 and BugGhost should be self-explanatory, and Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor who asked about "adopting" (my words) BugGhost's complaint.
-- Ivanvector ( Talk/ Edits) 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
As the newbie here that this request is concerning, I'm not completely certain what kind of comment is expected of me here, so I apologise if anything I say is irrelevant or out of scope.
Before writing the AN/I, I looked at the ARBECR guidelines and didn't see any wording that said that my filing was against the spirit of it. My interpretation was that AN/I wasn't a page related to any specific contentious topic, and the filing I was making was about a specific user's conduct, not about the contentious topic itself, and so it wasn't against the spirit of the restriction. I still stand by that - I made sure that my filing did not in any way weigh in on arguments of the related contentious topic at hand, just the behaviour of the user as shown by their edits. My filing was neutral on the contentious topic itself, without editorialising and without any discussion of assumed motive behind the behaviour - only their edits were brought forward.
A consequence from this closure is that raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a contentious issue is harder than raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a non-contentious issue. If PicturePerfect666's disruptive behaviour on the Eurovision page was instead about a different topic (say, the Dutch entrant's surprise disqualification), then an AN/I filing from myself would have gone ahead, because that part of the page is not under the ARBECR. But seeing as they were disruptive about a contentious issue, they have been able to deflect my concerns - which seems counter to the ARBECR's aims of reducing disruption on contentious topics.
I think that the ARBECR is a good idea but can be hard to interpret, and has the ability to dismiss reasonable well intentioned actions. In my view, it can contradict the "assume good faith" mantra, as assumption that I filed the AN/I accurately and in good faith was "trumped" by the fact my edit count being too low. As I said on IvanVector's talk page, I spent a long amount of time compiling a long list of the user's disruptive behaviour for the filing, including very specific diffs to outline each example, and it being dismissed based wholly on my edit count was very demoralising. As backed up by Yoyo360 suggestion to "adopt" it, the AN/I has some merits worth considering. BugGhost 🎤 16:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't have much to add actually. I don't edit much on wiki:en, I'm mostly watching the talk pages of the Eurovision wikiproject to inspire me on the French-language counterpart (which is quasi inactive). I only come in when discussions have relevance for topics I also could add on wiki:fr and I noticed PP666 behaviour in the past weeks. I concur with everything BugGhost noted in their AN/I, they argued the case way better than I ever could. Noticing the topic had been closed due to the extended confirmed restrictions, I put myself forward to push the AN/I to be treated (as I now have the EC status on wiki:en) asking if it could be reopened in my name. I even have a few things to add to it but that's rather minor compared to the rest and off-topic here I think. Yoyo360 ( talk) 15:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them
That is my experience, see
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive356#Selfstudier "As a non-EC editor, you essentially have no standing to make edits related to the topic. You can make an edit request, but any other editor can remove it, even without providing reason. Further, making a complaint against another editor as a non-EC editor in the WP:ARBPIA area is fully not allowed."· So I would agree, it's only logical.
Selfstudier (
talk) 14:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
I think the closing was entirely appropriate and I agree with Selfstudier's statement. However, I think it is fair to say that the situation with respect to Yoyo360 at the time of the complaint posted by PicturePerfect666 at ANI is more complicated than "Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor". They were granted the privilege early (from an enwiki perspective) because, as the log says, they are a "10-year-old user with over 25,000 edits across all projects". This seems reasonable, pragmatic and it resolved the issue (although I'm sure imaginative people could cite it as yet another example of anti-Israel bias or rewarding complainers etc.), but for me, it's another reminder that none of us really know (based on evidence) the best way to implement/enforce EC restrictions in ARBPIA, how strictly they should be implemented, and that there is a lot of (costly) subjectivity and fuzziness involved at the moment. This is by no means a criticism or an endorsement of anything that happened in that thread by the way. I have no idea how to figure out how EC rules should work in practice to produce the best result. Sean.hoyland ( talk) 16:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
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Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
M.Bitton ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts : in user talk history • in system log
There has been a long running dispute at Israel-Hamas war over the contents of the third paragraph of the lede; following multiple reverts and at least two discussions that failed to resolve the issue or prevent further reverts ( one, two) I opened an RfC. A few hours later, after three editors, including myself, had !voted in the RfC, Makeandtoss closed it. They had previously been involved in this specific dispute, both in the article ( example) and in the discussions linked above. This close also violated WP:TPO, as it involved striking the contributions of other editors without falling under the exceptions permitted by that policy.
I reverted this out of process close, but a few hours later M.Bitton reclosed it. M.Bitton wasn't involved in the immediate dispute, but has been involved with the article, and has expressed strong opinions in past RfC's on related content ( example).
This was a topic that was ripe for dispute resolution, with an RfC that had no issues sufficient to justify a premature close. Even if Makeandtoss and M.Bitton weren't involved it would have been a disruptive close, but it is particularly so because they were - by closing it early they have locked in a status quo that Makeandtoss explicitly favors and M.Bitton implicitly favors.
This was discussed previously at
ScottishFinnishRadish's talk page, and then further at
ARCA, where
Barkeep49 said they take a dim view of editors preventing this RfC
, and recommended bringing it here.
I also requested that M.Bitton revert their close; they declined to do so.
Makeandtoss:
disingenuous edit summaries, edit warring, and treating Wikipedia as a battleground
M.Bitton:
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton:
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
As evidenced by BilledMammal's own links above, there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four points, nor was there any attempt at conflict resolution that are outlined in WP:RFCBEFORE, which considers RFC a last option due to its time-consuming nature.
What I did was simply strike through the RFC, an action that was easily reverted, and I stopped and did not take it further. It would be disingenuous to claim that I had closed it, an irreversible action. Nevertheless, I will ensure to ask an uninvolved administrator to do this in upcoming incidents, which is indeed a better course of action.
That aside, this seems like an attempt to deflect from BilledMammal's own editing behavior, as they created the RFC in non-neutral phrasing without signing it, and then went ahead to vote with a signature, which creates a misleading first impression. Not to mention BilledMammal's edit warring by reverting other editors four times within the course of two hours relating to this incident: [3], [4], [5], [6].
I sincerely hope to see the day when editors are more interested in constructively contributing to Wikipedia than taking editors they disagree with to AE every time something happens. Makeandtoss ( talk) 10:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ScottishFinnishRadish: and @ Seraphimblade: First, thanks for the concerns. To add some context in response: I was blocked from that article on 14 October 2023, back when things were heated, and back when I did not completely understand what constitutes 1RR; I also wasn't able to appeal that 48 hour ban because it had passed while I was appealing. As for the second "sanction" on that article, I was warned for "slow motion edit warring" on that article backing in January 2024; because I had edited the same sentence multiple times in the lede over a few months according to developments on the talk page. Since then I have taken immense care to abide strictly by the guidelines at the article and across the topic.
My constructive and collaborative editing at the Israel-Hamas war article almost non-stop over the past seven months is evidenced by the fact that I am the third top editor by # of edits on the article having added 50k bytes and the 5th top editor on the talk page having added 70k bytes. Editing such a high-level and sensitive article while maintaining calm is not an easy task. Of course, striking through that RFC was a trout, which I have already pledged on SFR's talk page that it would not be repeated. The purpose of AE is to remedy behavior and not to punish editors. I really hope that a more balanced view of my editing is taken and that this minor mistake is not taken out of proportion. Makeandtoss ( talk) 09:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@ Newyorkbrad: I really appreciate the chance to present my perspective, and @ ScottishFinnishRadish:'s comment that shows their genuine dedication to handling this request appropriately.
First, note that the Israel-Hamas war article sees dozens of edits every day, and numerous discussions. Over the course of months this accumulates and gets inevitably confusing for everyone, especially as the ideas or edits are sometimes discussed in different phrasings or closely resemble one another.
The fact that I have created or engaged in these discussions shows my good faith and collaborative approach. In summary, this unfortunate incident took place in a sensitive RFC opened controversially and in a sensitive and highly active article. I accordingly made a hasty decision, to which I apologize about and vow that it would not be repeated. A lot of lessons learnt here: to specifically never strike through or remove any RFC; and more generally, to demonstrate greater patience, to put in greater efforts to examine similar situations, and to never act in haste.
As for the separate older incident with Number57 on 1 January, I did not say in the edit summary that no discussion had taken place, but that the RFC went against WP:RFCBEFORE, which states that if a dispute is between two editors they should seek WP:Third opinion first. After I removed the RFC, another third editor agreed with Number57's edit and disagreed with mine, and I stopped and did not take the issue further. Again, I was only made aware of the issues surrounding removing an RFC only after the recent incident. Makeandtoss ( talk) 23:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
I already explained the close when asked by ScottishFinnishRadish, so I won't repeat it here. I also wasn't involved in any of the discussions that led to RfC. Frankly, this report raises more questions than answers: if BilledMammal was really interested in SFR's advice, then why did they ignore it and why did they ignore the question that SFR asked them (about how to best formulate the RFC)? Someone who's starting a RfC for the benefit of the project would have no issue with what SFR suggested (working with others), but I guess that wasn't what they were after. Approaching me four days later with an ultimatum doesn't strike me as very constructive, especially considering the fact that I chose not to report them for violating 1RR multiples times. Bringing it to AE after raising it with SFR is just plain forum shopping. M.Bitton ( talk) 11:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I dont think it was a good idea to shut down the RFC. But on the process, if a user is blocked from a page for edit-warring, are they allowed to pursue dispute resolution related to that page while blocked? Or is that not similar to an editor violating a topic ban by making a report about the topic? nableezy - 13:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
My sole contribution to the RFC was to add the comment "+1. Not signed either." to Makeandtoss rejection of it, the RFCbefore being unspecified as well as a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments that had not produced the desired outcome from the openers perspective, awkwardly lumped together in a single RFC. I sympathize with the frustration that led to its untimely closure and frankly think that complainant should devote some effort to figuring out ways to spend less time at this board. Selfstudier ( talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Seems it can't be bothWell, it can, I speak as someone familiar with the article and its history, what I mean is that those prior discussions were nowhere apparent at the RFC or even on the talk page, it being usual to specify an RFCbefore detailing them. I can try to locate the multiplicity of them in the talk page archives if desired, I assume OP knows where they are? Selfstudier ( talk) 14:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion?That's the point, it is valid and that's why editors taking part in an RFC need to know about those discussions, generally I would link them as part of an RFC(before) Not all editors are aware of prior discussions of which there may have been several. Selfstudier ( talk) 15:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Would a better, less inflammatory way to handle this have been pointing out those earlier discussions in the RFC discussion or bringing up that you believe they should be linked on BMs talk page rather than closing the RM or modifying the RFC statement?From where I'm sitting, which is quite frequently on the opposite side of the table from complainant, that thought is one step removed from what I see as the actual source of the problem, namely the opening of that particular RFC in that particular way in the first instance, then persisting with it when three editors came out strongly against the process. I would not personally have closed out the RFC but I don't disagree with it either, I think complainant should have done so themselves and we wouldn't be here, not for this at any rate. Selfstudier ( talk) 18:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
While BM is technically correct that an RfC does not have to be signed, when one of the principle disputants on a topic starts an RfC with their own preferences highlighted it is at least a very bad look if they refuse to have their name on it. And I mean "refuse", since BM twice deleted a signature that was added using {{unsigned}}. If there is a positive explanation for that I didn't manage to think of it. Zero talk 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Just saying... WP:Signatures says "Typing five tildes will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding your signature". So, while it is true that five tildes are permitted in an RfC, it is arguable whether that counts as a signature for the purposes of TPO. Zero talk 01:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
In this instance I am uninvolved in the RfC (and am largely uninvolved in ARBPIA). I wanted to draw attention to BilledMammal's using their own !vote in their own RfC as evidence that it should remain open, which I take to be a rather peculiar argument. Of the other two !votes, one largely resisted the way the RfC was framed, while the other did accept the framing but only answered two of the four RfC questions.
So to me, BM's argument amounts to an assertion that the way it is framed makes sense to them (though others evidently disagree) and that they have voted in it therefore it must stay open. To insist on this, in spite of the lack of RFCBEFORE and quite evident flaws in the RfC's construction, strikes me as an attempted deployment of bureaucratic proceduralism unworthy of BM or of enwiki in general.
To then "seek justice against one's enemies" (Plato, not a wikipedian) in this forum, after having been banned temporarily from the Talk page in question, seems to me like a failure of judgement given the overwhelming lack of support for BM's framing of the RfC in the first place. The only likely outcome of that RfC, given the responses to it on Talk and on SFR's Talk, was a "malformed RfC" outcome, and I don't see how devoting photons and editors' time to hashing out that outcome would have served anything but BURO. Newimpartial ( talk) 14:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
disingenuous. I read "points" in the summary as meaning "proposals" and I don't see how any of the proposals received an appropriate RFCBEFORE. For any that did, it seems to me that it was up to the person filing the RfC to document the BEFORE, in any case, so the interpretation that "these points/proposals did not receive a prior discussion that satisfies RFCBEFORE" strikes me as entirely reasonable even if others read the situation differently. I certainly don't see anything "disingenuous" about the summary, even though of course nobody INVOLVED ought to he closing anyone's RfC but their own. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't have a view on this particular situation, but for context, I thought it would be useful to flag up that I have also experienced Makeandtoss shutting down an RfC after others have commented (see here). Number 5 7 17:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Closing an RfP this way seems rather disruptive (per WP:RFC, An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be
). Usually users unhappy with an RfC would !vote Bad RfC and explain their reasoning. Why couldn't it have been done in this case?
Alaexis
¿question? 21:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
It was a complex RFC from the get-go, and seemingly not prompted by sufficiently rigorous prior discussion so as to actually warrant such a complicated RFC (the only linked discussions are a couple that appear to have simply petered out). RFCs are by nature time consuming for the community, and can also hamstring routine discussion and editing but putting a freeze on any topic covered by the RFC until complete. It is not in the project's interest to have a proliferation of badly scripted, overly complex RFCs floating around, and closing such examples down is quite sensible from a WP:NOTBURO perspective. There aren't many other avenues open for nipping bad RFCs in the bud. If everyone just attends and votes "bad RFC" then that's time-consuming participation. Alternatively, editors could try to petition the admin noticeboard for an admin to strictly enforce WP:RFCBEFORE, but if this is a routine action, it's not one that I've observed, even though WP:RFCBEFORE is in principle quite strict and, one might think, enforceable. This close was a no-nonsense attempt to strictly adhere to WP:RFCBEFORE, and perhaps recourse to the admin board would have been a better option, but the intentions appear reasonable. It feels like the best way to deal with an RFC that fails WP:RFCBEFORE is actually a bit of a grey area, and one that perhaps needs better clearing up. Iskandar323 ( talk) 02:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I agree that RFCs shouldn't be closed so early by involved editors. However, on seeing the closure, I was glad it helped us avoid another heated discussion on that very Talk page that was extremely unlikely to produce anything resembling consensus. BilledMammal was right to write that perceptions of the editor who opened the RfC may influence how editors perceive the RfC
, and so given their rather contentious editing history in Palestine-related topics, they decided not not to sign their name. Yet we were at it again. When going through the questions, I was disappointed (but not surprised) to find out how POV the structure was – it concerned adding inline attribution to the internationally accepted numbers of Palestinian victims of the Israeli invasion (inline attribution is not normally necessary and suggests an opinion, not a fact – our policy requires it
if there is a disagreement between sources
) or contrasting these numbers with Israeli-provided numbers of supposedly killed militants, even though the latter are widely considered unreliable and few media carry them. Judging from the past discussion history on that article and the POV split of the most active editors, this RfC was not going to end up in a consensus.
So, as much as the close was procedurally wrong, I'm of the view that it ultimately befitted that article and the wider readership. A trout for everyone, as Valereee wrote, and move on. — kashmīrī TALK 22:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Lots of verbiage above but it's a simple issue. RfCs are not to be closed by involved editors. Involved editors who do so should get sanctioned, for this is a contentious topic area and there needs to be extra efforts made to enforce the rules, and I don't mean "trout slaps." Coretheapple ( talk) 22:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ScottishFinnishRadish: and @ Seraphimblade: as you consider sanctions, I'd like to add that Makeandtoss is exceptionally productive. They are one of the very few users I see regularly creating new articles or significantly expanding existing ones in the Arab-Israeli conflict area. They have an impressive User:Makeandtoss/DYK record (many of them in the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area), with some DYKs of articles they created still active (eg Killing of David Ben Avraham). They helped promote articles in this topic area to GA status (eg Battle of Karameh, Black September, Hussein of Jordan etc). Just last month, they wrote the entire History of Palestinian journalism article. I've also seen them create useful stubs (eg Mohammad Hyasat of the Jordanian Air Force, who helped defend Israel from Iranian attacks). VR (Please ping on reply) 11:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four pointsor was this
a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments. Seems it can't be both. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
what I mean is that those prior discussions, so there was prior in-depth discussion? Those talk pages are fast moving, and the archives are already huge. If the discussion happened a couple months ago, does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion? ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
If a signature violates the guidelines for signatures, or is an attempt to fake a signature, you may edit the signature to the standard form with correct informationand TPO is clear that editors may
...not modify the signature on others' posts for any other reason.Barkeep49 ( talk) 14:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Should the number of militants that Israel has stated they have killed be included? Should we describe the number of women and children killed as...with a summary of
no discussion has taken place about these points.
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Removing referenced statements & replacing with
original research
Gaza Health Ministry
1.
15:12, 13 May 2024
Rafah offensive
2.
09:55, 9 May 2024
General 1RR violations:
Rafah offensive
1.
09:55, 9 May 2024 - Referenced sentence removed
Palestinian political violence
2.
17:19, 8 May 2024 - User revert
War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war
3.
08.13, 25 April 2024 - Referenced sentence removed
Gaza–Israel conflict
4.
17:56, 24 April 2024 - User revert
Zionism
5.
21:05, 21 April 2024 - User revert
Israel and apartheid
6.
15:38, 21 April 2024 - User revert
Palestinian political violence
7.
14:35, 21 April 2024 - User revert
2024 Israeli strikes on Iran
8.
16:58, 19 April 2024 - User revert
9.
09:25, 19 April 2024 - Reverted to a previous version
10.
08:25, 19 April 2024 - Sentence removed without edit summary
I typically don't mind trivial 1RR violations if they were made in good faith. However, it struck me that the user had made hundreds of copy edits, from 20 to 31 March 2024, spamming categories to articles, in order to pass the 500 edit requirement for extended confirmed protection. Subsequently, they solely began editing controversial ECP articles in an aggressive manner. Additionally, it concerns me that the user was previously blocked for not disclosing their paid editing. Ecrusized ( talk) 18:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Hi, everyone My name is Gal, Gal the teacher (in Hebrew with English letters it comes out GALAMORE). I entered Wikipedia because I wanted to write about technology, I wrote the article on Perplexity.ai (which received 568,902 views so far!!), after I wrote about a few more high-tech companies I was temporarily blocked and warned not to engage in business matters probably for fear of receiving money for it. Almost every morning, before I start teaching, I go to Wikipedia to edit and I enjoy it very much. I am Israeli, so the Israel related topics interest me. If it is relevant, politically, in Israel I believe in peace with our neighbors and want an end to wars. When I see something that is biased, I try to balance it and bring sources from both sides. Even if there is an Israeli editor who makes claims that are "in favor of Israel" but are not substantiated, I will correct it - because I truly believe in balanced coverage of topics. I am not obssessive to my edits, I just enjoy adding information and I think it is productive to humanity.
On this occasion, may I ask where and when can I request that the prohibition to write on tech companies be removed? Galamore ( talk) 07:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
In addition, the offensive resulted in the temporary closure of the Kerem Shalom and Rafah crossings, further exacerbating the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
Kerem Shalom was closed due to the Hamas attacks, and now reopened, this is wrong and outdated.
But Israel closed the Kerem Shalom crossing after a Hamas attack on Sunday killed four soldiers in the area, then mounted an incursion on Tuesday that closed the Rafah crossing along the border with Egypt.
The GHM's casualty reports have received significant attention during the course of the Gaza–Israel conflict. GHM's casualty reports are considered credible by two scientific studies published in The Lancet.
The casualty reports issued by the GHM during the Israel–Hamas war have been subject to significant scrutiny. While some advocate for their accuracy, others cast doubt on their reliability.
Warned by another user about 1RR violation on 10:45, 14 April 2024. Did not self-revert.
the latest change seems to come from virtually inexperienced editors, Galamore and GidiD with a heavy Israeli bias
OP doesn't seem to know what 1RR means. Zero talk 09:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
For the sake of completeness, see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Galamore, gaming the system Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
And the discussion Talk:Israel–Hamas war#UN changes reported casualty figures. Selfstudier ( talk) 09:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
No action taken at this time as the matter is already being discussed at ANI. There is no prejudice to raising this issue here again if the ANI discussion ends without resolution of the matter, but we shouldn't have multiple threads open on the same issue at the same time. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Unnamed anon
The user originally started by edit warring over My Hero Academia and was warned by multiple editors, which accounts for their first ~700 edits across multiple forums, noticeboards, and talk pages. [15] I believe their contribution record, comments from others at the thread at ANI they started to complain about my behavior where they freely admit to having a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, and their talk page shows they have problems with edit warring and strong feelings in general. I believe the evidence above shows their disruption is particularly heightened in the GENSEX topic area, despite claiming to avoid it. This has been an issue for years. Their conduct at WP:No queerphobia and its associated MFD has been particularly disruptive. I made comments I regret and struck or clarified in response to their latest edits to the essay and for the record would like to apologize for my incivility towards him, but I believe he is still disruptive to the topic area (regardless of whether or not his views are queerphobic), he has a problematic tendency to group editors by LGBT status, and a TBAN may be necessary. At the minimum, a page block from WP:No queerphobes. The other edits to media articles and their edit-warring at Reverse racism and related pages and categories? I leave those to others to interpret. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 21:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Notified Unnamed anon 18 May 2024 Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 21:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Discussion concerning Unnamed anonStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Unnamed anon13-17 all relate to the same page. If you made this AE yesterday, I'd gladly be blocked from editing that specific essay if you reported me yesterday, but I had just come to an agreement with Licks-rocks, so it's up to others if they want me to no longer edit that page. I want to stress that I didn't actually agree with 16, but I was following advice from another Non-Endorser, Ficaia. 1-6 plus 8 all refer to the same page as well, and that was because Utada still used "she" pronouns in many then-current sources, before her social media outright listed she/they. I wasn't the only editor arguing this, nor was I the most prominent. That leaves five unique pages. The Simpsons AfD (12) was out of redundancy concerns, as all of the characters either had their own page already or were non-notable gag characters. The Family Guy edit (11) was because I was removing vandalism where the transphobia page was wrongly linked several times. The JK Rowling RfC (7) was because I felt that people put undue weight on recent news. For 9, at the time I didn't know people considered asexuals as LGBT (I still don't understand, but I'm no longer warring over it). I had no excuse for my phrases in 9, 3 and 4, but my views have changed in those three years. I don't group editors over their sexuality anymore unless there's a clear pattern where one side is mostly openly LGBT and the other side isn't. 10 was me seeing what I thought was original research, as I specifically remembered reading that Stranger Things interview. As for the edit war when I started my account, that was exasperation at constantly reverting to a preferred version, in spite of multiple users agreeing that a lot of the content was wrongly removed, being considered "not warring", as well as an name-calling from the other user in said edit war, who didn't contribute to the discussion after said incivility. Once Serial Number and I directly interacted for the first time in years when he complained about me at ANI, he submitted misrepresented evidence against me; in most of the diffs in his comment where I supposedly can't listen to other users, I had come to agreements with said users soon after( example), which he conveniently left out. As JXpG suggested, I'd like a two-way interaction ban between me and YFNS; SN54129 as well, because I can't trust that the latter will criticize me in good faith. In both of these cases, it's clear that I don't react well when somebody is being blatantly uncivil towards me, as both users have shown. My reactions are probably inappropriate, but they're not unwarranted since the other party is usually uncivil first, which is why I think my Ibans should be two-way.
@ Seraphimblade: I think the discussion should be redirected here rather than ANI, as my grievances with one user I initially reported have seceded, while another user conduct dispute was reignited after years of inactivity because of the ANI discussion. I think the ANI discussion should close and discussion redirected here due to the user report switch. I'll also reiterate than I'm volunteering myself for two two-way interaction bans. If YFNS and SN54129 both agree with two-way interaction bans, then this case can be ended fairly easily. Unnamed anon ( talk) 01:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by JPxGI suppose I am involved here because I commented at the AN/I thread about these same diffs running concurrently to this AE request ( Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist_and_User:Licks-rocks_civility_concerns). I also commented at the MfD for this essay, where I said it ought to be userfied (which it apparently now has been). This AE request feels like basically the same thing as the AN/I thread, which is "one of the participants in a vicious talk page argument wants the other person gone". The diffs in the post opening this thread go back three years, which, well -- if you have to go back three whole years to find stuff to make a case, I think the case might not be that strong. They are also presented in the worst context possible: e.g. the thing about recommending that YFNS remove "friendly" from her name was not some random remark, it was made in the context of a several-week-long discussion in which YFNS was
saying stuff like " It may be warranted to note that YFNS (under a previous username) was at one point subject to a WP:GENSEX topic ban at AN ( Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1121#Advocacy_editing_by_User:TheTranarchist), where CaptainEek's closing note was:
Of course, as with many things related to contentious political topics, this thread was opened by a now-blocked sock, but the consensus was nonetheless pretty consistent that there was a pattern of disruption. It should also be noted in the interest of fairness that this restriction was appealed (first at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive352#TheTranarchist_GENSEX_TBAN_Appeal and later, successfully, at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive356#TheTranarchist_Appeal, with topic-based 1RR and 0RR restrictions). Now, while we're on the subject of "reports don't need to be made in good faith for the issues they mention to be serious and worth action" -- this may well be true here, and UA is acting pretty out-of-pocket. I think that something in the general shape of a two-way interaction ban may be appropriate here. I am not an "AE guy" so I cannot say for certain what's the most likely to actually have a meaningful positive impact.
Statement by Serial Number 54129Since I have been name checked, can I ask admins to request examples of the incivility I have used against User Anon. Without diffs... well, of course they're aspersions. ——Serial Number 54129 22:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC) anon|talk]]) 23:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Unnamed anon
|
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Background evidence: 18 May 2024 AtikaAtikawa knows how to post an edit request
Various comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war ( permalink)
Creation of Israel–Palestine conflict userboxes
Polemicizing in MfDs for the aforementioned userboxes:
The editor has eight mainspace edits. All of their mainspace edits have been made between January and September 2020. The editor has 177 total edits, of which 31.1% have been deleted. 69.7% of their live edits have been to userspace. The user is generally inactive as an editor of Wikipedia, but has increased activity probably due to interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict, but instead of resuming normal editorial activity, which would mean making edit requests for a while, the activity has been predominantly polemical. Therefore, seeing all of this user's edits in total, the user is WP:NOTHERE.
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500
words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
As for the comments on Talk:War crimes in the Israel–Hamas war. I acknowledge that I failed at understanding ECR limitations when I made them; A rookie mistake that stems from the fact that I just started having interest in editing Wikipedia, and I'm still familiarising myself with the rules. In fact I was warned and I did obey. Briefly, I acknowledge my mistake here.
As for the userboxes. I hope that you take into consideration my arguments in their MfD entries. Basically, I think that Alalch E. is assuming bad faith since he is accusing me of endorsing violence and deeming atrocities as just with no basis, and I think that I actually clarified that through the documentation that the filer deemed as "apologia for violence including atrocities against civilians" when it is just a statement of a viewpoint, that is against violence from both sides.
As for the polemical comments. They were basically just answers to comments that were polemical themselves rather than referring clearly to policies that I did break. I totally understands that two wrongs don't make a right, but I'm really open to advices that concern how could I have handled this better.
As stated above, I'm well aware that I'm unexperienced, and I hope that my niche interest in the Arab-Israeli conflict will not be somehow held against me, rather I hope for whatever answer I'll get to this to contain referrals to the rules I broke in order to be mindful to them from now on.
I acknowledge that my behaviour was suboptimal, and I acknowledge that it did stem from a potential lack of understanding the rules from my part, and I welcome any decision that comes from your part with the hope that it will serve the noble goal of making me a better editor with a better service to the encyclopedia rather than punishment just for the sake of it.— Yours Truly, ⚑ AtikaAtikawa 15:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Technical picky point, defendant is non EC and not permitted to make statements here (or anywhere, really). An admin could/should deal with this? Selfstudier ( talk) 15:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
Seconding Selfstudier here - the defendant is several hundred edits short of XC status anyways, so this should be a fairly textbook warning (or TBAN) for violating the ARBPIA XC restriction rather than a drawn-out AE case. The Kip ( contribs) 16:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)