This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
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OTRS regularly gets emails from people who are told that in many cases (unless something exceptional's up), that OTRS team members cannot override community consensus, and that they need to edit the wiki themselves, or seek dispute resolution.
However, a user with a concern who sees "contact us" is presently directed to OTRS at the first resort, and a fair number of OTRS replies therefore say "we can't help, it's the editorial community" or "you can edit it yourself if you like". It's not the best communication we could have. We could explain the basics before pointing them to email.
I have added a short introduction to Wikipedia:Contact us/Article problem, so that users at least are clued in about community v. OTRS and how we handle problems, before clicking through to "What's the problem".
Can others review or improve this, as its a major page by which people contact us?
Thanks!
FT2 (
Talk |
email) 14:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
What _is_ the email address for OTRS? I went to add it (since it seems obvious it should be there), and I can't find it anywhere. — Random832 21:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I've been trying to find a policy that basically says "Don't take an editor's word for it." I'm positive it exists, as I'm fairly certain I've seen it mentioned before. For example, just because someone says that they work at Disney, and therefore know something about upcoming projects doesn't mean that they do, as there is no way of knowing for sure, and as such anything they add based on their own knowledge cannot be accepted as fact. I'm not talking about WP:OR, but mainly for discussion pages on attempting to get a consensus on something. On an article on my watchlist, there is an IP editor who claims to have background on copyright and trademark laws. Is there a policy that would justify my skepticism that he does have such background? I'm fairly sure there is one, but I've been unable to find it. Anakinjmt ( talk) 21:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
If someone can cite an article using a specific word or phrase about a notable person, is that word or phrase automatically notable such that it should reasonably have its own article? Are some venues for publication considered more notable than others? In general, how do you determine if an article should exist on its own, or be merged into another article? See the talk page of Putinisms for more info on the situation. Cromulent ( talk) 07:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
A user recently used his talk page to allege that I and another user were sockpuppets. The "evidence" posted to this talk page has now been discredited and the user has been banned for disruption by ArbCom. Is it acceptible for me to remove this material from the talk page, or is there an appropriate procedure for requesting that it be removed permanently by an administrator? Thin Arthur ( talk) 07:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Following certain recent events where editors believed by many to be of good conduct were indef blocked on the basis of "secret evidence", a number of editors proposed an addition to WP:BLOCK covering confidential evidence. The section gained a strong positive response.
The issues related to confidential evidence are too large for a subsection, and in any event, they extend outside the narrow limits of blocking policy. So a proposal emerged organically, for a separate policy page covering cases when misconduct may be alleged on the basis of evidence of a confidential, secret, or similar nature.
FT2 ( Talk | email) 21:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
An RfC was initiated at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling#RfC: Publishing embargo on televised WWE match results? regarding two separate issues, but somewhat related issues. That is whether there should be a publication embargo on the outcome of wrestling matches between the broadcast of a taping of Smackdown! in Australia and the rebroadcast of the same taping in the United States. The second issue of whether television broadcasts can be cited as a reliable source, particularly in reference to the broadcast of Smackdown!, or if most television broadcasts are considered "unreliable". -- Farix ( Talk) 23:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
After many months of discussing the applicability of WP:PSTS section at WP:NOR, a yes-or-no question on its future has been posted to the talk page at WT:NOR#Let's find Waldo. Please feel free to comment on the inclusion of the Primary, Secondary and Tertiary sources definitions in that policy. Dhaluza ( talk) 04:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Plans are afoot to merge Wikipedia:Reliable sources back into Wikipedia:Verifiability. Relevant discussion here and in surrounding threads. Also see WT:V. About seven people have commented and it's 7-0 in favour. The basics:
I asked for a partial protection of the sodomy page. As you can probably guess, it's a big magnet for vandals. I was surprised that the proposal was rejected. At first a false reason was given (no vandalism?), and then later it was said by another admin or editor that it was not vandalized often enough. That article is a clear example of a page that needs protection. It could not be any clearer. There are very few anonymous IP users who have ever contributed anything that doesn't constitute vandalism on the page, if any. This is yet another example of being lenient to a fault on Wikipedia. - Cyborg Ninja ( talk) 05:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a formal announcement to inform the community that a proposal to redefine the criteria of conventionality in the Russian language romanization guideline has been submitted and to solicit the community to review the said proposal and vote on it. The proposal is available at Wikipedia talk:Romanization of Russian#Proposal to re-define the criteria of conventionality. Thank you for your attention.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); 17:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I keep seeing these when I read articles about various celebrities. Most of the accounts look very fake and I don't know whether I should remove them or not. Many of them claim to be the "official myspace page of X", but their offical website has no mention about the myspace page. For example the page on Leila K contains an "official Myspace page" that seems to not be official and the artist herself is completely broke and lives on the streets. - Lapinmies 19:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
So I just read the history of the "Community Sanction Noticeboard" that was deleted earlier this month. That made me wonder exactly what is the distinction between the "administrator's noticeboard and the administrator's noticeboard/incidents" ? Don't the two overlap entirely? Shouldn't they be merged or one deleted? What actions or remedies should we seek? Belicia ( talk) 04:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Do we have any guidelines here for whether licence plate numbers can appear in images? This recently uploaded image [ [1]] is of an unmarked (or personally-owned) police car in Slovakia. It's a beautiful shot but the plate number is clearly visible and I don't know if that's cool or not. Do we have any precedent about whether plate numbers need to be airbrushed out in this situation? Squidfryerchef 22:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
There may also be a law in that country that prohibits the disclosure and publication of police and other government vehicles for security purposes. Otherwise we could all produce a database on such vehicles which would pose a national security threat. Better to obscure the undercover vehicle's plate. -- Andmark 15:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any problem with showing this information. Tim Vickers ( talk) 04:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
IMHO : Since we can get a name and address for a few bucks (and a SSN from there if you pay enough), the general rule should be to avoid showing a license plate. To state “Not our problem if DMV sells the info” is a bit short sighted. There is a difference between a single guy walking on the street, me placing the plate on my car for all to see (an obligation by law) and showing it to millions. Modern character recognitions also makes it a “big brother” issue. This being said, in this specific case, it’s a civil servant and I have liberal views on obtaining information on any government activity. They should have nothing to hide, be it a blue collar sleeping on the job in a city truck, a cop giving a ticket, or the mayor’s aid in a red light district. Finally I bow to Bullzeye’s opinion, if the picture is considered Art by the author he should have the last word on a case by case basis. YegLi ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion here which has implications for major re-interpretatation of the use of fair use images. Please provide input. Corvus cornix talk 00:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Note - for those, like me, not yet fully conversant with all the acronyms in use on Wikipedia, NFC stands for Non-free content and BLP is Biographies of living persons. Hope this helps, — SMALL JIM 09:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you people please weigh in here here. The issue at hand has to do with use of fair-use/non-free images on wikipedia and particularly on BLPs. I removed three fair use images from the Cillian Murphy article and it has set off a storm. Both sides are arguing their POVs with equal conviction and it seems to be raising tempers. Could somebody here please step in and settle this once and for all.
If memory serves me right, I have been prevented from using such screenshots from movies in the same manner as Cillian Murphy in the past. I cant find the diffs now, but I believe, I was told that such used didnt constitute fair use.. especially when the subject was alive.
So please address the core issues.
1) Are the fair use rationales used on for the three images (of which one got deleted and i believe is now in del review) on Cillian Murphy valid? 2) Is there a limit to how many fair-use/non-free images can be used on an article? Or is it simply, 'more the merrier'?
Please settle this once and for all and etch it into our policy. Because, if use of non-free content in the manner being used on Cillian Murphy or Preity Zinta is valid, there are hundreds of articles that are waiting to be 'improved' with such images. Really, how difficult is it to create screenshots from movies. If otoh, such use is not allowed, please let people know and stop them from attacking me. Thanks. Sarvagnya 22:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is one of the skins called "chick" ? I see nothing relating to baby birds of girls in it. Jackaranga ( talk) 16:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Dear Friends Wikipedia is a philosophy, so don't let people to just silently donate and go away, give something back to them to show that they are part of this philosophy, something like a logo for their personal web logs saying " I love giving to wiki" or some badge to put on their bag or t-shirt some thing to be like a motivation for them and others who see them. Some thing to spread this beautiful way of thinking and living. Please let wiki philosophy became a way of living for us in this new age. I feel it's much much more than a great encyclopedia , I feel it can be the meaning of humanity in the future century . Please don't miss this great chance. We don't have any credit card here in Iran, if we had donating wikipedia would became one of my hobbies.
Best regards J.Anvar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.146.46.164 ( talk) 18:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Anshuk 06:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Shortly after I first registered on Wikipedia I was blocked indefinately with no warning (and with no complaints against me from any users) for being a sock puppet because I had engaged in a (civil on my part) argument with User Porcupine. (I was eventually unblocked after a more reasonable Administrator reviewed the case). Today another newbie engaged in an argument with User Porcupine - and at one point began a message with "Listen pig" (albeit written in Romanian). That user has received a gentle warning for the offence. I realise that these decisions were taken by different Admins and so there are bound to be differences in the sanctions that each feels is appropriate but quite frankly in this instance the disparity is a joke. There needs to be some guidance given to ensure more consistency in these cases. For the record I actually believe both Admins were wrong - the one who blocked me was wrong to do so - blocks should not be handed down when no one has complained about a users behaviour, and someone who calls another user a "pig" should at the very least get a 24 hour block. Kelpin ( talk) 18:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree. That problem was the same in the criminal justice system before sentencing guidelines, with judges giving totally disparate punishments for the same offenses. Belicia ( talk) 05:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
If he was not a sockpuppet, and only had a dispute, he shouldn't have been blocked, and less indefinetly. He should've been requested at WP:RFCC &/or the ArbCom and the consensus would have brought a definite solution. Feed back ☎ 06:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC) I think its high time to go back to the days where you could not be banned by the "community," only by ArbCom after a full hearing. (like 2 years ago). Belicia ( talk) 06:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I am so tired of individual users, often the most uncivil ones or the ones with agendas, putting up articles for deletion with no previous discussion or involvement. I am not talking about speedy deletions.
My proposal: An established article (i.e. an article that has been present for a long time and with numerous editors) may not be put up for deletion without first discussing it on the article's talk page. If after discussion on the talk page there is no consensus (to keep or delete it), then the nominator may open an AFD.
To me this seems like nothing more than common courtesy, though in all the AFD's I've witnessed I've never actually seen it done. What do others think of the proposal? Dovi ( talk) 12:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.
< Older discussions · Archives: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z, AA, AB, AC, AD, AE, AF, AG, AH, AI, AJ, AK, AL, AM, AN, AO, AP, AQ, AR, AS, AT, AU, AV, AW, AX, AY, AZ, BA, BB, BC, BD, BE, BF, BG, BH, BI, BJ, BK, BL, BM, BN, BO · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193
OTRS regularly gets emails from people who are told that in many cases (unless something exceptional's up), that OTRS team members cannot override community consensus, and that they need to edit the wiki themselves, or seek dispute resolution.
However, a user with a concern who sees "contact us" is presently directed to OTRS at the first resort, and a fair number of OTRS replies therefore say "we can't help, it's the editorial community" or "you can edit it yourself if you like". It's not the best communication we could have. We could explain the basics before pointing them to email.
I have added a short introduction to Wikipedia:Contact us/Article problem, so that users at least are clued in about community v. OTRS and how we handle problems, before clicking through to "What's the problem".
Can others review or improve this, as its a major page by which people contact us?
Thanks!
FT2 (
Talk |
email) 14:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
What _is_ the email address for OTRS? I went to add it (since it seems obvious it should be there), and I can't find it anywhere. — Random832 21:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I've been trying to find a policy that basically says "Don't take an editor's word for it." I'm positive it exists, as I'm fairly certain I've seen it mentioned before. For example, just because someone says that they work at Disney, and therefore know something about upcoming projects doesn't mean that they do, as there is no way of knowing for sure, and as such anything they add based on their own knowledge cannot be accepted as fact. I'm not talking about WP:OR, but mainly for discussion pages on attempting to get a consensus on something. On an article on my watchlist, there is an IP editor who claims to have background on copyright and trademark laws. Is there a policy that would justify my skepticism that he does have such background? I'm fairly sure there is one, but I've been unable to find it. Anakinjmt ( talk) 21:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
If someone can cite an article using a specific word or phrase about a notable person, is that word or phrase automatically notable such that it should reasonably have its own article? Are some venues for publication considered more notable than others? In general, how do you determine if an article should exist on its own, or be merged into another article? See the talk page of Putinisms for more info on the situation. Cromulent ( talk) 07:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
A user recently used his talk page to allege that I and another user were sockpuppets. The "evidence" posted to this talk page has now been discredited and the user has been banned for disruption by ArbCom. Is it acceptible for me to remove this material from the talk page, or is there an appropriate procedure for requesting that it be removed permanently by an administrator? Thin Arthur ( talk) 07:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Following certain recent events where editors believed by many to be of good conduct were indef blocked on the basis of "secret evidence", a number of editors proposed an addition to WP:BLOCK covering confidential evidence. The section gained a strong positive response.
The issues related to confidential evidence are too large for a subsection, and in any event, they extend outside the narrow limits of blocking policy. So a proposal emerged organically, for a separate policy page covering cases when misconduct may be alleged on the basis of evidence of a confidential, secret, or similar nature.
FT2 ( Talk | email) 21:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
An RfC was initiated at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling#RfC: Publishing embargo on televised WWE match results? regarding two separate issues, but somewhat related issues. That is whether there should be a publication embargo on the outcome of wrestling matches between the broadcast of a taping of Smackdown! in Australia and the rebroadcast of the same taping in the United States. The second issue of whether television broadcasts can be cited as a reliable source, particularly in reference to the broadcast of Smackdown!, or if most television broadcasts are considered "unreliable". -- Farix ( Talk) 23:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
After many months of discussing the applicability of WP:PSTS section at WP:NOR, a yes-or-no question on its future has been posted to the talk page at WT:NOR#Let's find Waldo. Please feel free to comment on the inclusion of the Primary, Secondary and Tertiary sources definitions in that policy. Dhaluza ( talk) 04:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Plans are afoot to merge Wikipedia:Reliable sources back into Wikipedia:Verifiability. Relevant discussion here and in surrounding threads. Also see WT:V. About seven people have commented and it's 7-0 in favour. The basics:
I asked for a partial protection of the sodomy page. As you can probably guess, it's a big magnet for vandals. I was surprised that the proposal was rejected. At first a false reason was given (no vandalism?), and then later it was said by another admin or editor that it was not vandalized often enough. That article is a clear example of a page that needs protection. It could not be any clearer. There are very few anonymous IP users who have ever contributed anything that doesn't constitute vandalism on the page, if any. This is yet another example of being lenient to a fault on Wikipedia. - Cyborg Ninja ( talk) 05:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a formal announcement to inform the community that a proposal to redefine the criteria of conventionality in the Russian language romanization guideline has been submitted and to solicit the community to review the said proposal and vote on it. The proposal is available at Wikipedia talk:Romanization of Russian#Proposal to re-define the criteria of conventionality. Thank you for your attention.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); 17:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I keep seeing these when I read articles about various celebrities. Most of the accounts look very fake and I don't know whether I should remove them or not. Many of them claim to be the "official myspace page of X", but their offical website has no mention about the myspace page. For example the page on Leila K contains an "official Myspace page" that seems to not be official and the artist herself is completely broke and lives on the streets. - Lapinmies 19:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
So I just read the history of the "Community Sanction Noticeboard" that was deleted earlier this month. That made me wonder exactly what is the distinction between the "administrator's noticeboard and the administrator's noticeboard/incidents" ? Don't the two overlap entirely? Shouldn't they be merged or one deleted? What actions or remedies should we seek? Belicia ( talk) 04:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Do we have any guidelines here for whether licence plate numbers can appear in images? This recently uploaded image [ [1]] is of an unmarked (or personally-owned) police car in Slovakia. It's a beautiful shot but the plate number is clearly visible and I don't know if that's cool or not. Do we have any precedent about whether plate numbers need to be airbrushed out in this situation? Squidfryerchef 22:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
There may also be a law in that country that prohibits the disclosure and publication of police and other government vehicles for security purposes. Otherwise we could all produce a database on such vehicles which would pose a national security threat. Better to obscure the undercover vehicle's plate. -- Andmark 15:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any problem with showing this information. Tim Vickers ( talk) 04:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
IMHO : Since we can get a name and address for a few bucks (and a SSN from there if you pay enough), the general rule should be to avoid showing a license plate. To state “Not our problem if DMV sells the info” is a bit short sighted. There is a difference between a single guy walking on the street, me placing the plate on my car for all to see (an obligation by law) and showing it to millions. Modern character recognitions also makes it a “big brother” issue. This being said, in this specific case, it’s a civil servant and I have liberal views on obtaining information on any government activity. They should have nothing to hide, be it a blue collar sleeping on the job in a city truck, a cop giving a ticket, or the mayor’s aid in a red light district. Finally I bow to Bullzeye’s opinion, if the picture is considered Art by the author he should have the last word on a case by case basis. YegLi ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion here which has implications for major re-interpretatation of the use of fair use images. Please provide input. Corvus cornix talk 00:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Note - for those, like me, not yet fully conversant with all the acronyms in use on Wikipedia, NFC stands for Non-free content and BLP is Biographies of living persons. Hope this helps, — SMALL JIM 09:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you people please weigh in here here. The issue at hand has to do with use of fair-use/non-free images on wikipedia and particularly on BLPs. I removed three fair use images from the Cillian Murphy article and it has set off a storm. Both sides are arguing their POVs with equal conviction and it seems to be raising tempers. Could somebody here please step in and settle this once and for all.
If memory serves me right, I have been prevented from using such screenshots from movies in the same manner as Cillian Murphy in the past. I cant find the diffs now, but I believe, I was told that such used didnt constitute fair use.. especially when the subject was alive.
So please address the core issues.
1) Are the fair use rationales used on for the three images (of which one got deleted and i believe is now in del review) on Cillian Murphy valid? 2) Is there a limit to how many fair-use/non-free images can be used on an article? Or is it simply, 'more the merrier'?
Please settle this once and for all and etch it into our policy. Because, if use of non-free content in the manner being used on Cillian Murphy or Preity Zinta is valid, there are hundreds of articles that are waiting to be 'improved' with such images. Really, how difficult is it to create screenshots from movies. If otoh, such use is not allowed, please let people know and stop them from attacking me. Thanks. Sarvagnya 22:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is one of the skins called "chick" ? I see nothing relating to baby birds of girls in it. Jackaranga ( talk) 16:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Dear Friends Wikipedia is a philosophy, so don't let people to just silently donate and go away, give something back to them to show that they are part of this philosophy, something like a logo for their personal web logs saying " I love giving to wiki" or some badge to put on their bag or t-shirt some thing to be like a motivation for them and others who see them. Some thing to spread this beautiful way of thinking and living. Please let wiki philosophy became a way of living for us in this new age. I feel it's much much more than a great encyclopedia , I feel it can be the meaning of humanity in the future century . Please don't miss this great chance. We don't have any credit card here in Iran, if we had donating wikipedia would became one of my hobbies.
Best regards J.Anvar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.146.46.164 ( talk) 18:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Anshuk 06:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Shortly after I first registered on Wikipedia I was blocked indefinately with no warning (and with no complaints against me from any users) for being a sock puppet because I had engaged in a (civil on my part) argument with User Porcupine. (I was eventually unblocked after a more reasonable Administrator reviewed the case). Today another newbie engaged in an argument with User Porcupine - and at one point began a message with "Listen pig" (albeit written in Romanian). That user has received a gentle warning for the offence. I realise that these decisions were taken by different Admins and so there are bound to be differences in the sanctions that each feels is appropriate but quite frankly in this instance the disparity is a joke. There needs to be some guidance given to ensure more consistency in these cases. For the record I actually believe both Admins were wrong - the one who blocked me was wrong to do so - blocks should not be handed down when no one has complained about a users behaviour, and someone who calls another user a "pig" should at the very least get a 24 hour block. Kelpin ( talk) 18:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree. That problem was the same in the criminal justice system before sentencing guidelines, with judges giving totally disparate punishments for the same offenses. Belicia ( talk) 05:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
If he was not a sockpuppet, and only had a dispute, he shouldn't have been blocked, and less indefinetly. He should've been requested at WP:RFCC &/or the ArbCom and the consensus would have brought a definite solution. Feed back ☎ 06:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC) I think its high time to go back to the days where you could not be banned by the "community," only by ArbCom after a full hearing. (like 2 years ago). Belicia ( talk) 06:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I am so tired of individual users, often the most uncivil ones or the ones with agendas, putting up articles for deletion with no previous discussion or involvement. I am not talking about speedy deletions.
My proposal: An established article (i.e. an article that has been present for a long time and with numerous editors) may not be put up for deletion without first discussing it on the article's talk page. If after discussion on the talk page there is no consensus (to keep or delete it), then the nominator may open an AFD.
To me this seems like nothing more than common courtesy, though in all the AFD's I've witnessed I've never actually seen it done. What do others think of the proposal? Dovi ( talk) 12:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)